US in pursuit of a new fleet that will make the country great again

146


The American press seriously raises questions of the revival of the greatness of its fleet. The National Interest and Drive, already familiar to us, have recently been joined by such an interesting magazine as Foreign Policy (International Policy), with materials by the British retired military officer Alexander Wooly, known to us from the same Drive.



Wooley aroused great interest in his articles, because in some of them he not only quotes, he actually rehabilitates the “defeatist” Paul Kennedy (not from THAT clan, Paul is British), who predicted the decline and collapse of the American fleet in the late eighties and early nineties. Then Kennedy was not kicked only by the lazy, military experts were especially atrocious, but it turned out that old Paul was right, and the US Navy is experiencing a crisis that can be called unprecedented.

Today, not only the aforementioned specialized American publications say that “not everything is beautiful in the American state”, political and financial publications join them.

In principle, it is logical, because the fleet costs the United States astronomical sums, therefore the Wall Street Journal and Foreign Policy experts that have arisen with estimates are quite normal. Money and politics always go side by side, and therefore, if the fleet eats money, if not in itself, but does not have any influence on politics, the conclusions are not the most pleasant.

Therefore, today Kennedy's books (and then books were still in use) are of interest. "Victory at Sea", "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", "The Rise and Fall of British Naval Power" are discussed, quoted and re-examined because the 77-year-old Briton was able to predict much of what we see today.

And we are watching, if not a sunset, then ... And what are we watching? In 1938, the US Navy had 380 ships. In 1944, by the end of the year - 6 ships.


And this is the essence: it is not so important who sank how much during the war, it is important who has how much left by the end of it. Here, as an example, German submariners fly in perfectly. Yes, they sank hundreds of ships, yes, the tonnage went off scale, yes, Britain had a very difficult time. But in the end, where are all the underwater aces of the Third Reich? That is it...

In 1943, when a huge flock of American aircraft carriers was launched into the oceans, the ensuing series of real large-scale naval battles buried Britain's dominance at sea, which had lasted more than 200 years. Britain gurgled, because it could not build ships at such a pace and of such quality.

Yes, masterpieces like "Yamato" or "King George the Fifth" were not built in the USA. And you can say for a very long time who was better, the "Towns" of Great Britain, the "Mogami" of Japan or the "Clevelands" of the USA. Yes, the Mogami were, in my opinion, simply incomparable ships, but how many of them were built, and how many Clevelands?

But in huge quantities they built escort aircraft carriers, battleships, cruisers and destroyers. What can I say if more Fletchers alone were built (175 units) than all ships for the Japanese Imperial Navy from 1937 to 1945?

That's where the power was born. It was possible to build a couple of excellent ships of the Tirpitz-Bismarck and Yamato-Musashi types, but, as practice has shown, little came of them. Three of the four super battleships were destroyed without actually having fought even. But simply stunning middle peasants like "Iowa" not only fought successfully, they did it until the very end of the last century, having gone through wars in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq.


What has changed after 80 years? But nothing. Battleships have died as a class, the aircraft carrier is still the main warship, and the destroyers and cruisers that have become frigates and destroyers are still escort ships for aircraft carriers. The United States still has, if not the largest, then the most powerful navy.

But there were not very pleasant nuances. And in order to understand and appreciate them, it is necessary, like 100 years ago, to look at the shipyards. Where ships are built, and ships today are not built in the USA. About 90% of the world's merchant ships are built in China, Japan and South Korea. The United States and Europe nervously smoke on the sidelines, struggling to keep up with their own military orders.

And if you look at how US allies in NATO, such as France and Great Britain, build warships, then in general, mortal longing begins.

Today, US Navy officials are talking about growth, but at the same time, the naval potential is shrinking, despite the fact that the cash flow does not dry up. Paradox? Yes. According to the latest draft budget, by 2027 the now dwindling US Navy will not have today's 297 warships, but only 280. In the United States, the number of shipbuilders is declining and the capacity of shipyards is not enough.

And come on, new, old ships sit in dry docks for years before it's their turn to be repaired.

And when shipbuilding is in this state, there are heads in the US who start talking about changing course. The fact that it is time to move away from the concept of a global war against terrorists (a dozen aircraft carriers are absolutely not needed for this) and admonish individual countries towards the return of the concept of dominance in the oceans.


There is something. After all, whoever controls the water areas today holds the whole world by the throat. Yes, without sea and ocean transportation, modern trade is unthinkable, both in hydrocarbons and in everything else.

The whole problem is that the United States is gradually emerging, if not opponents, then competitors in this field. First of all, it is China, followed by India and Japan.


Why is that? Because China has long been a headache for the United States, India is also striving for dominance in the region, and Japan, which today has the most dynamically developing fleet, can easily go crazy in the implementation of its conquest plans.

Russia is not on this list, not with our parodies of fleets to claim control of something there in the oceans. So far, we are not able to take control of the Black Sea, because there is nothing.

Yes, oddly enough, but today the main force of non-nuclear deterrence in the leading countries of the world is the navy. And surface forces are a very important component, since neither ICBM nor strategic aviation, nor the submarine fleet is not able to carry out, for example, the blockade of a single region by sea.

Of course, submarines can tightly seal the same Persian Gulf, piling up a certain number of tankers at the exit. But the Strait of Hormuz is shallow, it will be very difficult for a submarine there, and the environmental disaster from a sunken tanker will be half the world. But the surface fleet can easily do this.

Especially if this surface fleet can do such things.


And this is where some of the problems are.

If during the Cold War the American fleet was definitely ready for naval battles, then after its end, degradation began. Surface ships and their crews fought terrorists, pirates, participated in the support of landing operations on the shores of unfriendly countries. And this approach caused a drop in the training of personnel. And, as the practice of recent maritime accidents involving American ships shows, navigational training leaves much to be desired. And all computers and navigation systems cannot replace people.

And by the turn of 2022, it turned out that the political situation required the reorientation of the American fleet to solve new problems. More precisely, to solve old and well forgotten problems. To combat a serious enemy surface fleet. Naturally, without the use of nuclear weapons. It will always work out.

On January 11, 2022, as part of the next symposium of the US Naval Surface Forces Association, Vice Admiral Roy Kitchener, Commander of the Naval Surface Forces, unveiled a plan to achieve superiority at sea over a potential adversary precisely with the help of the surface forces of the fleet: “Surface Combat Operations: Competitive Advantage”.

The admiral's plan is simple: more surface ships that are task-oriented, staffing with trained personnel, developing new concepts for the use of ships and training crews in their light. Plus well-established work on the shore for repairs.

Kitchener is quite optimistic in his report. In general, the admiral believes that in 5-10 years the United States is able to solve all naval problems and again become a force that will be "a global power with a bias towards the Pacific Ocean" and "will support security interests throughout the Indo-Pacific region, including alliances with five countries and close friendships with many others.”

That is - the usual role of the world gendarme. The plan is quite normal, but not just because it was born? Yes, it addresses deterrence and warfare, the strategic imperatives of sea control, force projection and the ability to dominate the oceans, and reveals the new architecture of the US Navy's surface forces.

Against who? Everything is clear and transparent: the main enemy of the United States is China.


“Global competition with China and renewed tensions with Russia are major strategic factors for Naval planners. We are competing with a first-rate navy…whose scope extends far beyond territorial waters.”

China is pursuing a very aggressive policy in the region today, that's a fact. It builds military bases on the islands, constantly arranges events in the Taiwan area, which the US does not like at all. Plus a very dynamically developing Chinese navy.

What can the United States do in the next ten years to eliminate or at least minimize the threat posed by China?
You know, not very much.

1. The main stake is still placed on the nuclear aircraft carriers of the new generation "Ford". The ships are promising and powerful, but the period of "childhood" illnesses has somehow dragged on. But it will still be a force in the future.

2. Arleigh Burke destroyers of the third iteration re-equipped with the latest development hypersonic missile system. Promising, but doubtful, because joyful reports of success were not heard at all. Work on hypersonic weapons in the United States is progressing, but not as fast as we would like.

3. If everything goes well, then destroyers of the Arleigh Burke type of the second series will be re-equipped with hypersonic missiles.

4. Commissioning of the fleet of promising DDG(X) missile destroyers, which are only at the development stage.

5. Frigates URO type "Constellation", a large series of which is planned for construction, and in the light of recent events may even be increased.

6. Modernization of the UDC of the San Antonio type, ships that are not old, but that form an integral part of the striking power of the fleet.

7. Commissioning of promising light landing ships of the LAW (Light Amphibious Warship) type.

8. Introduction into service of two types of unmanned ships, large LUSV (Large Unmanned Surface Vehicle) and medium MUSV (Medium Unmanned Surface Vehicle).

9. Modernization for carrying hypersonic weapons of the destroyers of the "Zamvolt" type and modernization with the strengthening of the armament of the littoral ships of the "Independence" and "Freedom" classes.

If you look thoughtfully, then points 1, 2,3,6, which are based on work with existing and well-proven ships, are quite viable.

Points 4,7, and 8 are in some doubt, because "Zamvolt". As everything is delivered today in the USA, these ships can not wait. As for the Constellation frigates, here, perhaps, we can say that, most likely, the matter will work out. The ships are small, not "breakthrough", because the Americans can build them.

As for the dances around the flawed Zamwalt, Independence and Freedom projects, let me say that these are nothing more than sawing dances. It has long been clear that ship designs are completely unviable and further attempts to rehabilitate them with the help of additional appropriations are nothing more than marine necromancy with all the ensuing results.

But even in this form, ships are really only half the story. The second half is crews.

The maritime department understands and, most importantly, they are well aware that the more complex the technical part, the greater the role the human factor will play.

And in this field, the American naval command considers it necessary to take a number of measures to train personnel, primarily aimed at raising the professional level of sailors in tactical training, in navigation and navigation, in engineering and emergency rescue.

A ten-year plan has been developed, the implementation of which will significantly increase the level of combat capability of the American fleet. The main goal of the plan is "increasing the level of competencies of personnel, which is necessary for the successful conduct of hostilities in multi-domain operations of new generation wars".

The next area of ​​work is again connected with ships, but which are already in service and, moreover, require repair. Maintaining the combat readiness of ships requires money, maintenance, modernization and effective planning of all these activities.

It is planned to create an entire strategy that will ensure timely maintenance and repair of ships, timely modernization and commissioning of warships. Accordingly, the creation of a warehouse infrastructure capable of ensuring the uninterrupted supply of spare parts and components for the fleet.

The command of the Navy intends to give the shipyards and suppliers of the second and third levels (this is just everything that concerns repair and modernization work) the status of national assets (“national treasure”), and then take all processes in these firms under constant supervision in order to avoid disruptions in terms of time and quality of work.

This also applies to the latest equipment, in which naval structures are so interested: the latest AN / SPY-6 radars, new electronic warfare systems under the SEWIP Block III program, means of combating enemy control systems, communications, and computer systems.

And all this will require money. Naturally. And not just money, but huge resources that American financiers are not yet ready to estimate even approximately. The cost of the fleet continues to rise, although the return is not yet observed. In 2013-2021, about $5 billion was invested in simulators for practicing navigation skills and tactical training of surface ship crews. The result is more than 10 accidents and disasters since 2010 involving US warships.

The construction of new ships, the repair and modernization of old ones, the acquisition of new equipment, the organization of coastal infrastructure for new ships, the training of crews - the command of the US surface forces perfectly understands the level and global nature of the plans.

However, the American admirals are very determined. Their confidence that in ten years it is really possible to make such a revolution in everything related to naval affairs is amazing.

But China continues to build up its naval forces, and the state leadership continues to implement the Three Lines of Islands strategy. According to this concept, by 2050, the Chinese Navy must secure the ability to operate freely, primarily at the border of the Aleutian Islands - Hawaiian Islands - the countries of Oceania. And also have the ability to solve a wide range of tasks in a vast water area - up to the southern part of the Bay of Bengal, the central and northern parts of the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the Red Sea and the eastern coast of Africa.


Considering how actively the PLA fleet of the PRC is replenished with new ships, if you notice how harmoniously this development is proceeding, both in terms of surface and submarine forces, we can conclude that the Chinese leadership is well aware of how to correctly realize their ambitions.

And for some reason, there is confidence that the implementation of the program to create the first Chinese nuclear aircraft carrier is more likely than, say, the creation of a new American URO cruiser.

Willingly or not, we are witnessing the beginning of a new global confrontation in the oceans. Yes, while this is the territory of the Pacific Ocean and parts of the Indian Ocean, but ...

No normal analyst will undertake to predict at least approximately how events will develop. The great desire to regain lost positions in the ocean for the United States and the no less great desire of China to become the maritime hegemon of the Pacific Ocean for a long time will become reactors fueling a new confrontation.

But in general, there are too many analytical predictions in the American press about the fact that the Chinese fleet can outperform the American one.

Therefore, the efforts of the American admirals are quite understandable. The whole question is not just how well the measures to strengthen the role of the American fleet in the World Ocean will be planned, but how well these developments will be implemented.

So - time will tell.
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  1. -3
    29 July 2022 05: 01
    US in pursuit of a new fleet that will make the country great again
    belay The idea is great, as is the goal. But the consequences for the country ..... Inflation and complete devastation in the economy. request
    1. +18
      29 July 2022 07: 03
      US in pursuit of a new fleet that will make the country great again

      Do not confuse cause and effect.
      Makes a great country economy, In second place idea. And only the presence of the first two makes it possible for the country to build a fleet, an army and adequately maintain it.
      1. -8
        29 July 2022 15: 23
        What kind of economy did Sparta have? On the contrary, she fought with her economy in order to educate warriors, and not pampered youngsters. And its greatness has been remembered for more than 2000 years. And how was the economy with Chengis? And go ahead, you dispelled cities and prly to ashes, those whose economy flourished))
        1. +11
          29 July 2022 17: 25
          And where are Sparta and Genghis Khan now?
          1. 0
            2 August 2022 13: 47
            In the legends))) and this is already a lot))) For 400 years not to have defeats in hand-to-hand combat, at that time, and even in this, it is almost a miracle))) Well, where is the same Athens now? Or Crete-Mycenaean culture?)) Yes, and nothing remains of Rome)))
            1. -1
              2 August 2022 14: 01
              Legends don't mean a thing, so, chatter about the old days
              1. 0
                2 August 2022 14: 49
                Well, if historical evidence, the same Plutarch, is nothing to you, then what matters?))) But, in my opinion, legends and books are of great importance in the education of a warrior. For a youth pampered on the charms of a developed economy is a bad soldier. Yes, and you deliberately left the question. Spartp with the laws of Lycurgus, has sunk into oblivion. And who is alive now from those times?)
                1. -1
                  2 August 2022 15: 47
                  Since then, probably no one, although Greece and Egypt can be pulled by the ears. But since the time of Genghis Khan, many have been living, from Europe to China to Japan.
                  As for the legends... you can't live in the past, you have to build the future. The history of Sparta now does not help Greece in any way, just as the conquests of Genghis Khan do not help Mongolia in any way. But European universities once well pushed Europe forward.
                  1. 0
                    4 August 2022 01: 32
                    Well ... what do you require from Sparta? At one time it was a mighty power ... despite the frail economy)))
                    1. 0
                      4 August 2022 11: 28
                      Was, along with Athens, and eventually Athens won
                      1. 0
                        4 August 2022 14: 17
                        And I would say that both lost))) Bearing in mind that they first fell from the Macedonians, and then from the Romans)))
                      2. 0
                        4 August 2022 14: 55
                        If in the long run, then yes, both sides lost
                      3. 0
                        4 August 2022 15: 34
                        And in a short story, there is no need to talk about the victory of Athens. For after the Peloponnesian War began a period of their decline and extinction. So ... where does the Athenian victory come from?)
                      4. 0
                        5 August 2022 10: 40
                        And after 60 years, Sparta was blown away)))
                      5. 0
                        5 August 2022 13: 17
                        No matter. She has already pushed Athens)
                      6. -1
                        8 August 2022 15: 58
                        On the contrary, before the capture of Greece by Macedonia, Athens was on horseback
            2. +2
              2 August 2022 18: 31
              Quote: Leontrotsky
              For 400 years without defeat in hand-to-hand combat

              This is historical fantasy. And the Spartans raked with a certain regularity and certainly were not invincible warriors
              1. 0
                4 August 2022 01: 31
                Read Plutarch. He claims the dominance of Sparta for 500 years on the territory of Greece. Yes, and in the Peloponnesian War, Sparta defeated the prosperous and strong economy of Athens, and not vice versa)))
                1. 0
                  4 August 2022 07: 30
                  Quote: Leontrotsky
                  Read Plutarch. He claims the dominance of Sparta for 500 years on the territory of Greece.

                  Herodotus did not agree with him. The Battle of Sphacteria (425 BC), the Corinthian War (395–387 BC), the Battle of Leuctra in 371 were unsuccessful for the Spartans.
                  Quote: Leontrotsky
                  Yes, and in the Peloponnesian War, Sparta defeated the prosperous and strong economy of Athens, and not vice versa)))

                  But this was not a war between Sparta and Athens. It was a war between a bunch of Greek policies, and even the Persians were noted there: the defeat of Athens predetermined the power of Sparta, and its attitude towards allied (more precisely, vassal) policies, which used any opportunity to rebel against Athens. At the same time, in battles, the Spartans periodically suffered severe defeats - to the point that in the Archidamic War, the Spartans asked Athens for peace. Athens disagreed...
                  1. 0
                    4 August 2022 08: 03
                    1-Herodotus did not agree with him. The Battle of Sphacteria (425 BC), the Corinthian War (395–387 BC), the Battle of Leuctra in 371 were unsuccessful for the Spartans.
                    Well, even in this case, defeat in one battle does not mean the end of dominance in Greek territory. Only the battle of Leuctra and the defeat of Epaminondas led to the loss of Sparta's influence in Greece. Take the current USA. How many defeats did they suffer in military conflicts? And this did not lead to a serious weakening of their influence in the world.
                    2-"Except it wasn't a war between Sparta and Athens." And yet at the head of the two alliances were Athens and Sparta. And they nominated commanders from their midst and they also spent the main resources. Remember World War II. The USSR also had allies. Germany has all of Europe. Nevertheless, we believe, and by right, that the main contribution to the victory over fascism was made by the USSR, and the main burden of defeat fell on Germany.
                    1. +2
                      4 August 2022 08: 58
                      I propose to curtail the discussion somehow. It is very inconvenient to lead it along 3 lines of comments at once. Please write an answer to the big comment, where I quote Roel, and I will answer you there, including this comment
        2. +13
          29 July 2022 19: 13
          Quote: Leontrotsky
          What kind of economy did Sparta have? On the contrary, she fought with her economy in order to educate warriors, and not pampered youngsters.

          No one there fought with anything, and their economy was quite classical slave-owning for those years.
          Quote: Leontrotsky
          And its greatness has been remembered for more than 2000 years.

          You know, if it were not for the specific feat of a specific Leonid, then they would remember much less about her than about the same Athens.
          Quote: Leontrotsky
          And how was the economy with Chengis?

          Very good.
          1. +1
            2 August 2022 13: 37
            To get started, look at the laws of Lycurgus))) Sparta's economy was based on helots (slaves). And the Spartanians, especially the youth, in order to hone their hand and get used to the blood, organized a hunt for helots. And not fugitives, but quite law-abiding. The destruction of slave forces is not undermining the economy? Moreover, the laws of Lycurgus introduced only a small copper coin into circulation, so that those who were engaged in business (trade) transported it on carts. So the people knew by sight who was engaged in combat training and hardening of the spirit, and who was striving for worldly goods. Sesity - joint meals, also introduced by the laws of Lycurgus. They ate lentils with blood, a simple dish, and if before that a person drank wine from Athens or ate a smoked ham, then turned up his nose from simple food. Which is also a reason for imposing a penalty. Is this not a fight against the economy? I'll send it to Plutarch. In the biography of Agesilaus, he gives an example of how an army from the cities of the Peloponnese gathered in Athens for the next military campaign. They began to reproach the Spartan that he brought few soldiers. Then he went out in front of the Pelopoiean army and said, "Which of you is the potter? Get out of line." Further, the situation repeated itself with blacksmiths, merchants, tanners, and so on. And only the Spartans remained in the ranks, who, in addition to the military, were forbidden to engage in other crafts. "You see, said Agesilaus, who brought more soldiers?" So what kind of economy is there with this approach, when there are no basic artisans?))
            1. +1
              2 August 2022 18: 29
              Quote: Leontrotsky
              So what kind of economy is there with this approach, when there are no basic artisans?))

              So you would think, how could Sparta even exist without basic artisans? If the Spartans themselves did not do this, but the helots were killed during the hunt :))))
              Quote: Leontrotsky
              And only the Spartans remained in the ranks, who, in addition to the military, were forbidden to engage in other crafts

              Only now they were quite engaged in the same agriculture - it was allowed, see the laws of Lycurgus :)
              Quote: Leontrotsky
              Sesity - joint meals, also introduced by the laws of Lycurgus. They ate lentils with blood, a simple dish, and if before that a person drank wine from Athens or ate a smoked ham, then turned up his nose from simple food.

              Not this way. There were sesitias, but the food there did not consist of lentils with blood at all (this is just one of the dishes) - it was quite varied, but relatively simple and without any special frills. And here's what's interesting - a citizen was obliged to contribute products for participation in sessions, and if he did not have these products, then he was deprived of the title of citizen. So like it or not, but be kind enough to understand agriculture.
              Did you take your kids for training? So they are not alone.

              Quote: Leontrotsky
              Moreover, the laws of Lycurgus introduced only a small copper coin into circulation, so that those who were engaged in business (trade) transported it on carts. So the people knew by sight who was engaged in combat training and hardening of the spirit, and who was striving for worldly goods.

              Not this way. He made iron coins (and from specially damaged iron) in order to exclude the accumulation of wealth - in this form, no one outside of Sparta needed coins, and keeping them was still hemorrhoids.
              1. 0
                4 August 2022 01: 01
                1-"So you would think, how could Sparta even exist without basic artisans? If the Spartans themselves did not do this, and the helots were killed during the hunt"
                My friend, do not go to extremes. Not all helots were killed. However, let's give the floor to Plutarch - "The Helots, cultivating their land for the Spartans, paid them a quitrent established in advance; it was forbidden to demand a large rent for rent under pain of a curse. This was done so that the Helots, receiving benefits, worked with pleasure, and the Spartans would not have sought to accumulate "(Article 41. Plutarch "Table Talk") According to Herodotus and his History of the Peloponnesian Wars, Spartan youths killed the most recalcitrant helots, arranging raids on them. So who worked on the fields of the Spartans, there was someone.
                2-"Only they were quite engaged in the same agriculture - it was allowed, see the laws of Lycurgus :)"
                Yes, it was allowed by the laws of Lycurgus. Like, for example, the Spartans go hunting. It was allowed, if your helot fell ill or died, to go to work in the fields, but if this became a permanent habit and the warrior began to turn into a peasant, this was unequivocally condemned by society and, no doubt, punishment followed.
                3-"Not so. There were places to be, but the food there did not at all consist of lentils with blood (this is just one of the dishes) - it was quite diverse, but relatively simple and without any special frills. And what's interesting - a citizen is obliged was to contribute products for participation in sessions, and if he did not have these products, he was deprived of the title of citizen. So, like it or not, but be kind enough to understand agriculture. "
                Dear, you attribute to me what I didn’t say, and then you refute it))) I didn’t say that there was only black stew on the table. Moreover, I doubt that the Spartans would be healthy if they eat the same way. They, in sisitia, could also take a sip of wine in moderation. - "Most of all, the Spartans appreciate the so-called black stew, so that old people do not even take their piece of meat, but give it to young men. They say that the Sicilian tyrant Dionysius bought a Spartan cook and ordered him, regardless of any expenses, to prepare such a soup. However, after tasting it, he spat it out in disgust. Then the cook said: “O king, in order to find a taste in this soup, you life in exercise.
                1. 0
                  4 August 2022 01: 03
                  In their sessitia, the Spartans drink little and leave without torches. They are not allowed to use torches at all, either on this occasion or when they are walking on other roads. This is established so that they learn to walk boldly and fearlessly on the roads at night "(Plutarch-Table Talk st 2, st 3)
                  I spoke about lentil stew only to show that if you have breakfast with a piglet in the morning, such a simple meal will not go down your throat and it will be visible to others.
                  4-"Not so. He made iron coins (and from specially damaged iron) in order to exclude the accumulation of wealth - in this form, no one outside of Sparta needed coins, and keeping them was still hemorrhoids."
                  Money. Let's start with the fact that not all were from damaged iron. "Then Lycurgus expelled from
                  Spartans are all useless, superfluous crafts. However, even if he did not expel
                  them, most of them would have disappeared by themselves along with the introduction
                  new coin, since their things would not find a market for themselves - iron money would not
                  went to other Greek states "(Plutarch. Comparative biographies of Lycurgus") As you can see, Plutarch does not say a word about spoiled money. Although, in one of the short periods of Spartan history they were. But iron money was by no means a blow to hoarding. Their purpose was different. Hoarding was dealt a blow to that retro of the Lycurgus laws, which concerned the prohibition of circulation and accumulation of gold and silver in Sparta. For in this way Sparta lost the common Greek currency and means of accumulating wealth. An iron small coin was required in order to control the spending of fellow citizens. So, if a Spartan, once three or four months with a full cart of cash, went to a neighboring village to buy a ham for his daughter's wedding, this found understanding. But if he traveled there every week, fellow citizens asked a reasonable question, where did you frequent and what, in fact, do you get?
                  1. 0
                    4 August 2022 01: 04
                    « In the reign of Agida, money entered Sparta for the first time, together
                    but with the money selfishness and the thirst for wealth returned to the state. Blame
                    that was Lysander, who, not loving money personally, made his fellow citizens
                    selfish and introduced to luxury. He brought home gold and silver and
                    dealt a mortal blow to the laws of Lycurgus. ”(Plutarch“ Comparative biographies. Lycurgus)
                    I will say more, in the words of the same Plutarch - “23. Trade was prohibited. If need arose, one could [f] use neighbors' servants as one's own, as well as dogs and horses, unless the owners needed them.
                    41. Along with other valuable and happy institutions provided by Lycurgus for his fellow citizens, it was also important that the lack of employment was not considered reprehensible by them. The Spartans were forbidden to engage in any kind of crafts, and they had no need for business activities and saving money. ”(Plutarch. Table Talk)
                    1. 0
                      4 August 2022 01: 04
                      Well, now take the trouble to answer the question)) If trade, crafts, commodity-money relations, which form the basis of any economy, were banned in Sparta, how could this economy develop?
                      The basis of any prosperous economy is an abundance of goods in various fields, from literature and art, to household items and luxuries. In the same Athens during this period we find luxurious temples (Parthenon) and the temple of Zeus at Olympia, the works of Phidias and pottery (primarily numerous vases) and a lot of sculptors such as Polykleitos and Skopas with their magnificent sculptures and gold jewelry and stunning marble tombstones ... .and much more.
                      And what did Sparta leave behind from what would have been a prosperous economy in the period from the life of Lycurgus to the battle of Leuctra?
                      Well, whisper in my ear, in secret, how could Sparta, with its wretched economy, which, as we see, was ruined and the laws of Lycurgus did not allow to develop, was able to win in the Peloponnesian War over Athens, which has masses of artifacts of a prosperous economy of that time?)))
                      1. 0
                        4 August 2022 08: 31
                        Well, now take the trouble to answer the question)) If trade, crafts, commodity-money relations, which form the basis of any economy, were banned in Sparta, how could this economy develop?

                        Let's start by asking another question - the comparative size of the armies of ancient Greece. According to Leiden University professor Roel Konijnendijk, Sparta was simply the largest community among others, which is why it was a military success. Sources 800-500 BC do not indicate any special power of the Spartans. Roel gives an example
                        At the so-called Battle of the Champions, around 550 BC, a picked force of 300 Spartans fought a group of 300 Argives for control over a patch of borderland. The end result, according to Herodotos (1.82), was that two of the Argives and only one Spartan were left alive. While this may be little more than a legendary tale, it does not suggest the Spartans were in any sense superior in combat; apparently the Argives could give as good as they got in a mass duel, where they had nothing to rely on but their own skill and strength.

                        Quote: Leontrotsky
                        The basis of any prosperous economy is an abundance of goods in various fields, from literature and art, to household items and luxury... ....what did Sparta leave behind?

                        Let's start simple. Why do you think that when assessing the strength of the economy of a country, the indicator of GDP per capita, and not the production of luxury goods, became popular?
                        What is an economy? There are many definitions, but in essence it turns out like this. Any society owns 3 types of resources, these are labor resources, means of production and raw materials from which goods are made. The product serves to satisfy the needs of the people of society.
                        So, the level of commodity production determines the strength of the economy.
                        Simply put, this is how it works. There is a certain minimum level of commodity production that provides people with everything vital for existence and expanded reproduction (that is, more children are born than people die and society grows). For this, it is necessary that people be dressed according to the climate, well-fed, and have a roof over their heads. This is, so to speak, the minimum acceptable consumption.
                        However, people are learning and gradually the efficiency of their work is growing. As a result, society begins to produce more goods than it needs at a minimum level of consumption. And here the question arises - where to transform the resulting surplus?
                        So, everywhere people began to transform these surpluses into art (which is understood, for example, not as a functional hairpin for a raincoat, but as a hairpin decorated, say, in the form of a horse or someone else) and - into accumulation, that is, there is a stratification, someone becomes rich, and someone becomes poor. This is due to the development of the economy, this is how the power of this economy is manifested.
                        So the whole difference between Sparta and the same Athens is only in the direction of transformation of surplus products :)))))) Simply put, the basis (production, and hence the power of the economy) in Athens, in Sparta was on the same level. But the Athenians transformed it into wealth, into art, into temples, and so on. - and the Spartans (even if Plutarch is 100% believed, but this should not be done) - in the maintenance of a crowd of parasites who were trained in warfare. Simply put, if a person needs to work 12 hours just to feed and clothe his family, he will do just that. And if he needs to work only 6 hours for this, then the rest of the time he can do something else. For example - a beautiful golden figurine and put it in the temple. Or produce more food to feed the family of a Spartan citizen who does not want to work himself :)))
                        In both cases, the economy is the same. But in the first version, you, as an archaeologist, will find a golden figurine, and in the second - nothing, because the Spartan warrior has long gone to Valhalla :))))))
                        Quote: Leontrotsky
                        Well, whisper in my ear, in secret, how could Sparta with its miserable economy, which, as we see, were ruined and the laws of Lycurgus did not allow to develop, was able to win in the Peloponnesian War over Athens

                        Already whispered, in response to another comment.
                      2. 0
                        4 August 2022 16: 30
                        My friend, do not listen to Western European, and even more so, Anglo-Saxon professors)) They need to fit the concept that the prosperity of the state and its great victories is possible only in conjunction with the right to private property, the development of economic factors and "democratic values" ( Look what they are doing with the history of the Second World War))) But Sparta is not included in this concept. Therefore, publications have appeared recently that in fact there was no strict adherence to the laws of Lycurgus in Sparta, or that you claim that it was a very rich state. Whom then to believe? Just for those who lived not far from those events, from the point of view of the time period - Herodotus, Plutarch, Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle. Yes, they could embellish something as a witness, but in general they maintain one outline and give one testimony))) The same Plutarch lived 300 years from those events, and Aristotle even less. From Plutarch to Agesilaus, as from us to Peter. And we know Petrovsky history very thoroughly, including its architects, nobles and glorious deeds.)))) And about the October Revolution (this is already from the bell tower of Aristotle) ​​we finally know almost everything)))
                      3. 0
                        4 August 2022 16: 30
                        And now back to our topic that the number of inhabitants of Sparta was large))) According to the laws of Lycurgus, all Spartan land plots (not counting the royal ones) were divided into 9000 cleres (plots)))) And never, in the entire classical history of Sparta (from Lycurgus to the Macedonian conquest) they, according to one of the witnesses of the ever-memorable Plutarch, they were not occupied to the last one .. Aristotle and Plato echo him. Modern historians are of the opinion that the total number of inhabitants of Sparta (with helots and perieks) reached 16. In the bottom line, we have that the Spartans had much less than 000 males (who were citizens of Sparta).
                        Athens, in the 4th century BC, had about 150 inhabitants, including the suburbs.
                        Which is easily explained. Well, think for yourself - where will the conditional Boeotian go to a new place of residence - to Sparta, where it is necessary to comply with the laws of Lycurgus or to pleasant Athens, closer to the sea - luxury and trade. Ships with various overseas curiosities leave and come to the port every day. Where there are temples and theaters, public baths and sophist competitions in wisdom. Yes, and full of all sorts of pleasant things))) The choice, I think, is obvious. Especially considering that foreigners were not particularly favored in Sparta, and in order to become their own foreigner, for a certain period it was necessary to strictly live according to the Lycurgus regulations. Our witnesses, almost contemporaries of those days, do not contradict this, calling Athens a populous trading city, and Sparta a large village.
                      4. 0
                        4 August 2022 16: 31
                        As for wealth ...))) Let us recall once again the ban on the circulation of gold and silver in Sparta, trade is prohibited, a ban on crafts and we ask ourselves the question of where and why to get rich and with some such preference, money will flow into the treasury in such a stream that their number will surpass the cash of those who plow the expanses of the sea on ships in search of either markets. Or, on the contrary, outlandish goods for the purpose of resale? I see only one way to enrichment - taxes from the perieks (which were hardly particularly large, compared with trade duties, and the perieks in Sparta were in the region of 0 or 3000. There is also a royal landownership. The royal plots were large. The same lentils, I think, could be grown on them a lot. But you can’t earn a lot of money from agricultural production, especially considering that trade was banned. But strategic reserves could well have been made for 4000 -2 military campaigns.In addition, the kings themselves did not differ much from the Spartans in their way of life, Aristotle-Plato mentions their palaces in passing, as royal houses and does not pour out even a hundredth of delight, as before the gilded gates of some Croesus Yes, and where did the very possibility of wealth from the Spartan kings come from, if they were closely watched by 3 ephors? Well, let's say the Agisids and Eurypontides had gold bars in their cellars and saved up, defying the danger of being executed by the decision of the ephors - for violating the laws of Lycurgus, gold and silver. In this case, I will ask you why none of the ancient authors has evidence of the fabulous wealth of the Spartan kings? There is not even evidence of the presence of several sheds clogged with iron obols.
                        So you have a hard work to answer two questions - how and due to what the wealth of the Spartan kings appeared (because, according to you, the state was not inferior to the Athenian one in terms of total GDP) and in what specific product it was monetized, because the ancient authors, on this account - there is no evidence.
              2. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            2 August 2022 13: 42
            More about Genghis. Lev Gumilyov in "Russia and the Great Steppe" says that on the banks of the Kerulen, Genghis tribesmen were mainly engaged in cattle breeding, since this is the basis for a nomadic people. They drank koumiss and ate the meat of horses and sheep. That's actually the whole economy. With the same Central Asia that they conquered and cannot be compared. Do you have other historical sources? Name them. And then your unfounded statement about the developed economy of Genghis is not confirmed by anything. Moreover, the Horde took, first of all, the masters from Russia and took them to the Horde ... which means they didn’t have their own))
            1. +1
              2 August 2022 18: 52
              Quote: Leontrotsky
              And then your unfounded statement about the developed economy of Genghis is not confirmed by anything

              Look at the article "Features of economic policy and leadership style of Genghis Khan and the great Mongol Empire", for example.
              Quote: Leontrotsky
              Genghis tribesmen were mainly engaged in cattle breeding, since this is the basis for the nomadic people. They drank koumiss and ate the meat of horses and sheep. That's actually the whole economy.

              And to this - the centralized management of land plots and strategic weapons - herds. Separation of professions. A very successful merging of the military and economic structures of the state. Free trade, which was given a lot of attention. "Urton" - communications, information transmission system ... Yes, a lot of things.
              And yes, you should not reduce nomads to "koumiss / meat". They also had crafts. Just as you should not measure the power of the economy by skill in crafts. It's still different
              1. 0
                4 August 2022 01: 20
                I repeat, once again, now for the case of Genghis. Any developed economy, whether ancient or medieval, leaves behind a lot of artifacts in various fields of human activity. In Assyria, it is enough to enter the Pushkin Museum, as soon as you see the products of those times. And magnificent realistic bas-reliefs from the palace of Ashurnatsirapal II and winged bulls from the palace of Sargon in Dur-Shukkan and majestic ziggurats ... but this was 2000 years before Genghis. And the Cretan-Mycenaean culture? Remember the Labyrinth and the golden mask of Agamemnon? And what about Khorezm and Samarkand, which flourished in the time of Genghis and conquered by him? Remember the palace of Ibrahim Hussein in Samarkand, created before Genghis? And the gold items of Samarkand craftsmen? And the saddles and harnesses adorned with precious stones in the collection of the Armory? And the magnificent weapons?
                And take the same Aztecs? Tenochtitlan and Teotihuacan...the temples of the Sun and the Moon. Motekusoma the second who managed to fill the room of his palace with the gold products of his masters for the greedy Spaniards?
                Where is all this with Genghis? I ask you??? What did he bring with him? Of course, those who sewed saddles or made bows were with him, but this is not enough to consider the economy of the banks of Kerulen as developed. The facts about this do not scream, like the Aztecs, Assyrians and Samarkands)))
                Shouldn't the strength of an economy be measured by craftsmanship? And what do you order to measure it in, looking back at that time? The power of the economy is developed commodity-money relations. Developed commodity-money relations are the accumulation of wealth, both by the state and by its individual representatives. And there is money, there is a demand for crafts.
                But if artisans, and in the first place, are taken out of the conquered states (and this suggests that, in their own way, they are in short supply, if you only have an iron coin from the means of accumulation, and there is no demand for handicrafts, then what kind of developed economy can talk?
                1. 0
                  4 August 2022 08: 37
                  Quote: Leontrotsky
                  Where is all this with Genghis? I ask you ???

                  Answered in a comment about Sparta and Athens :)
                  Quote: Leontrotsky
                  Shouldn't the strength of an economy be measured by craftsmanship? And what do you order to measure it in, looking back at that time?

                  described there
      2. +3
        29 July 2022 19: 19
        Quote: Civil
        What makes a country great is the economy, second is the idea.

        "The idea that has taken possession of the masses becomes a material force" - it was not I who said this, but K. Marx!
        Then, first of all, goal-setting (idea), which is dragged along by the material factor (economy). On this occasion, there are philosophical arguments of V.I. Lenin about the interaction of "politics and economics" - which is a "concentrated expression of politics" and that "cannot but take precedence over the economy." This is the question of dialectics ...
        It would be more accurate to say: the basis, the foundation of the country's prosperity, is its economy. And ideology sets the vector of development, the movement of this country. For example, Germany in 1939 had a highly developed economy... But everyone knows where the fascist ideology led it.
        The US is following the same path...
  2. -5
    29 July 2022 05: 55
    Items 4,7, and 8
    + 5p. - forget. All money in points 1, 2,3,6, but most importantly, you yourself noted, cancel the cuts! And investments in the crews of ships. Can Serdyukov give in, for 3-4 lard, to rent for 5 years? feel
    1. +1
      29 July 2022 09: 28
      Nobody will cancel cuts. Serdyukovs have enough of their own))))
    2. +6
      29 July 2022 10: 45
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Can Serdyukov give in, for 3-4 lard, to rent for 5 years?

      In no case. The furniture maker will immediately cover up the longest-running peelings, give the proms a bunch of orders for average in terms of performance characteristics, but cheap and mass-produced ships, and knock out such prices from the proms that the owners will hiccup for a long time. In short, it will follow the traditional American one - medium in terms of performance characteristics but mass ships.
      He will also order them "OHP mark B3" instead of littorals. smile
      1. 0
        30 July 2022 10: 05
        If the Ministry of Defense had been headed by a "furniture maker" and not a PR man for the past 10 years, then most likely we would now have a very different army, and a very different situation in Ukraine. And it certainly couldn't have been worse. Alas, our generals and the leadership of the military-industrial complex were able to neutralize Taburetkin, so we have what we have.
      2. -2
        30 July 2022 11: 08
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The furniture maker will immediately cover the longest-playing peelings, give out a cloud of orders to the proms for average in terms of performance characteristics, but cheap and massive ships

        Only now there will be no one to serve on them, due to the closure of higher educational institutions of the Navy and a reduction in enrollment.
        However, even those whom he allows to study will have nothing to serve, because he
        Quote: Alexey RA
        knock out such prices from promos

        on which they will never be able to build ships in an acceptable time frame. Is that a few aircraft carriers in France will order
        1. +3
          30 July 2022 15: 52
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          on which they will never be able to build ships in an acceptable time frame.

          And how much did they miss the deadlines for the first three 11356?
          It is these ships that are the symbol of the "furniture" policy in the field of armaments: "a tit in the hands."
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Only now there will be no one to serve on them, due to the closure of higher educational institutions of the Navy and a reduction in enrollment.

          So if most of the graduates go to civilian life, maybe there is no need for so many higher education institutions? Maybe it’s better to leave as much as is needed for the new look of the Armed Forces, at the same time improving the quality of education due to better funding for a smaller number of higher education institutions?
          Moreover, in our country, the reduction of the VUZ took place against the background of the reduction of officer positions in the Armed Forces themselves, in which many structures have remained since the days of the USSR. There are no subordinates for a long time - but there is a headquarters.
          1. +1
            30 July 2022 17: 19
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And how much did they miss the deadlines for the first three 11356?

            Forever and ever. I remind you that out of 6 ships of this project, 3 entered the fleet, and the other 3 will never enter. Really,
            Quote: Alexey RA
            furniture policy symbol

            About the fact that, thanks to the most absurd savings "on matches", the ships did not receive towed GAS, which greatly worsened their PLO - I generally keep quiet.
            Of course, you can say that Serdyukov could not have foreseen the events in Ukraine in 2014. And I will answer that it was thanks to his endless stupidity that we built a fleet on imported power plants, which is complete absurdity, and for this alone he should not be fired, but should have been shot. This is HIS control
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Maybe it's better to leave as much as you need for the new look of the sun

            But, shit, it wasn’t enough, causing a terrible shortage of the same pilots and junior officers of the fleet - this is even if the supply of equipment is far from planned
            1. +3
              31 July 2022 12: 43
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Forever and ever. I remind you that out of 6 ships of this project, 3 entered the fleet, and the other 3 will never enter.

              So we seemed to be talking about a furniture maker in the USA? Is Maidan going to happen at GE? wink
              And yes, I did not write in vain
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And how missed the deadlines on the first three 11356?

              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And I will answer that it was thanks to his endless stupidity that we built a fleet on imported power plants, which is complete absurdity, and for this alone he should not be fired, but should have been shot. This is HIS control

              Well, yes, well, yes ... since Soviet times, all ship gas turbine engines have been made by Nikolaev, but only the furniture maker is to blame for this.
              And as for imported DEUs, you don’t know why you had to order a diesel engine from MTU. How many tried to bring to mind the GEM at the "Guard"? Remember these words of Chirkov?
              There are only three enterprises in Russia that are engaged in the production of marine power plants: Kolomna Diesel, Ural Diesel, which makes it so that after two months the covers on these units are completely corroded by sea water ”, and another plant - Zvezda, presented at the salon his engine, which was actually manufactured in Austria.

              And where in Russia to get the metal from which this engine will be made? Are we in Russia capable of making such cases and such details? Not

              Moreover, the Urals themselves admitted that Chirkov was right.
              And it's already 2015. Taburetkin has been gone for a long time, and import substitution is in full swing.
              Serdyukov had a simple choice: either get ships with imported power plants now, or not get them at all. Or get such that now half of the corvettes would be under repair.
              1. +1
                31 July 2022 15: 46
                Dear Alexey!
                Quote: Alexey RA
                So we seemed to be talking about a furniture maker in the USA? Is Maidan going to happen at GE?

                But what, the Maidan forced the furniture maker in France to order UDC and in Italy - wheeled tanks?
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Well, yes, well, yes ... since Soviet times, all ship gas turbine engines have been made by Nikolaev, but only the furniture maker is to blame for this.

                So in Soviet times, we were one country :))) And after Soviet times and before the furniture maker, we didn’t build anything - there was no money. The furniture maker was just planted to ensure that he rationally manages money, it was assumed that the generals and admirals did not have enough qualifications and conscience.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Moreover, the Urals themselves admitted that Chirkov was right.

                I'm afraid you did not understand the essence of my claims to Serdyukov
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Serdyukov had a simple choice: either get ships with imported power plants now, or not get them at all. Or get such that now half of the corvettes would be under repair.

                Serdyukov's choice was very simple and the only correct one.
                The first is to understand that building a fleet on imported engines is absurd. Failed.
                The second is to understand that the fleet is being built for more than one year, and not ten. This is a CONTINUOUS process. Failed.
                Start mastering the production of your own gas turbine engines, invest in diesel engines (either bring it to perfection, or license the production and move to 100% localization). Failed.
                That is, the problem is not that he ordered ships with imported power plants, the problem is that he considered this normal and did not lift a finger to change the situation, at least in the future.
                And as for corvettes ... there are no imported power plants on corvettes today, and they seem to still be in service, and there were downtime in repairs only on the first ships of the series. Now the quality seems to be better.
                1. +1
                  31 July 2022 18: 43
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  But what, the Maidan forced the furniture maker in France to order UDC and in Italy - wheeled tanks?

                  Actually, I wrote about something else - that the American Serdyukov will not have such problems with the American 11356 that we had with the second three of these FRs - because there will be no Maidan on GE.
                  As for the Mistrals, the decision to order them was made above the MO. And they were the price for France's position on 08.08.08, when the French, having monopolized the negotiation process, dragged it out until the Georgian forces were defeated.
                  And the Italian wheeled tanks ... it would be better if the furniture maker really ordered them - you see, then the "Boomerangs" would run not only around Red Square.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  That is, the problem is not that he ordered ships with imported power plants, the problem is that he considered this normal and did not lift a finger to change the situation, at least in the future.

                  So for this, the UEC had to subdue the Moscow Region. And nationalize Zvezda and Kolomna. Otherwise, MOs are left with only market leverage. For which the same Kolomna wanted to spit, since its main customer is Russian Railways, and the profit from railway orders multiple times covers everything that the Moscow Region can give. smile
                  1. +1
                    31 July 2022 20: 14
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Actually, I wrote about something else - that the American Serdyukov would not have such problems with the American 11356

                    Of course it won't. Since the Americans themselves build only littoral from small ships, and there are no worked out projects of corvettes / frigates, he will order frigates for them in Italy or France.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    As for the Mistrals, the decision to order them was made above the MO.

                    Maybe.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And the Italian wheeled tanks ... it would be better if the furniture maker really ordered them - you see, then the "Boomerangs" would run not only around Red Square.

                    Where are we, sivolapym ...
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    So for this, the UEC had to subdue the Moscow Region. And nationalize Zvezda and Kolomna.

                    Dear Aleksey, at present the UEC of the Moscow Region is not subordinate, and Zvezda and Kolomna are not nationalized. Nevertheless, GTZA and diesel engines for the fleet are slowly moving forward.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Otherwise, MOs are left with only market leverage.

                    In general, the Defense Ministry has enough non-market levers, but for this particular case... Let's start with the fact that an enterprise cannot refuse to fulfill a state defense order. And for the supply of products that do not correspond to the passport, such penalties are possible that
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    profit from railway

                    can nervously smoke on the sidelines
  3. -5
    29 July 2022 06: 10
    What are you? Is there enough money for Hohlandia?
  4. +2
    29 July 2022 06: 28
    Do we need aircraft carriers?
    What about the Americans and the Chinese?
    From 2030 to 2050...
  5. -2
    29 July 2022 06: 41
    Japan will not fly off any "coils". You know the economic crisis.
    Not those times when - "once and in kings."
    The age of armadas at sea is passing away at the speed of an express train.
    At sea, they will also move to small, highly mobile tactical groups. And Aviki will also cut (cut).
    Growth is only possible if war begins.
    1. -1
      30 July 2022 19: 56
      Rare stupidity.
      1. -2
        31 July 2022 11: 05
        You write nonsense.
        Study economics and geopolitics dearest.
        The site is full of people like you.
        I won't say anything about the analysis of information.
  6. +5
    29 July 2022 06: 51
    With a strong economy comes a strong army and navy - and the United States has simply been living beyond its means for the last 30 years - because the USSR was torn apart and lived happily ever after for 15 years. And then wars began to fuel their own "miracle" economy, which is essentially the same as that of the Vikings - raid - robbery - raid. It would be enough for the United States to simply collect all its fleets into 2 fleets - the Pacific and the Atlantic and stop scattering forces around the world - but this means that they will not be able to poke their nose everywhere like after the collapse of the union. So let's see how greed and stupidity defeat logic and rationality.
  7. +7
    29 July 2022 07: 00
    Frankly, do not care about the striped and their fleet. Following the example of the same South Korea, we need to learn to build our own fleet, both military and civilian. so much for the development of metallurgy and metalworking, but here the whole industrial complex will be involved. And do not rely only on the military.
    1. +7
      29 July 2022 17: 02
      Quote: Ros 56
      Following the example of the same South Korea, we need to learn to build our own fleet, both military and civilian. so much for the development of metallurgy and metalworking, but here the whole industrial complex will be involved.

      To build a full-fledged Fleet, you need to have your own marine / ship engine building. We need medium-speed diesel engines from 8 l \ s and above, we need gas turbines (it seems to be already there) and high-quality travel gears ( request sadness, "Head never got out on the running gear).
      Everything else is the ability to expel hulls, armament, shipbuilding capacities ... there ... but they stand or barely breathe - without engines.
      When the USSR decided to build the Fleet in the early 30s, the first thing they took care of was the power plant - they bought a license from the Italians and the entire technical process for steam turbines. And with something, but there were no problems with propulsion systems in the USSR. And our fleet switched to gas turbines before the Americans.
      That is why the Fleet was built.
      But our civil shipbuilding is starting to develop very well, which cannot but rejoice.
  8. +12
    29 July 2022 07: 15
    Roman doubts the combat effectiveness of the American surface fleet, but at the same time he forgot that in a war at sea, more than anywhere else, victory depends on intelligence capabilities. And according to this indicator, the States are far ahead of everyone. And this will ensure them victory in any naval battles. They will be defeated by the one who will have better intelligence.
    And everyone has the same problems with personnel.
    1. +2
      29 July 2022 09: 30
      Intelligence can help, facilitate, hasten victory. But it cannot win on its own. Yes, and the Chinese, I think intelligence is no worse than the mattress.
      1. +6
        29 July 2022 15: 47
        Minus is not mine. High-precision weapons are more or less evenly developed for everyone. In this light, intelligence and electronic warfare become key parameters. As never before, the adage "The one who shoots first laughs" corresponds to the sea confrontation. The last 40-50 years of operations at sea confirm this almost without exception.
        You can think whatever you want, but intelligence should KNOW.
        1. 0
          29 July 2022 20: 50
          Intelligence may or may not know. There are states in which it is very difficult for intelligence to work. And satellite, RTR can be deceived. The Chinese have a lot of money - accordingly, you can buy almost everything.
          1. +2
            30 July 2022 09: 45
            If the intelligence doesn't know, don't fucking go to war at all - stand at the pier and raise the coloring flags.
            1. +1
              30 July 2022 11: 27
              Tell me, when and what kind of intelligence knew everything about everyone? It's an impossible dream.
    2. +3
      29 July 2022 17: 18
      Quote: Galleon
      The states are way ahead of everyone. And this will ensure them victory in any naval battles. They will be defeated by the one who will have better intelligence.

      The Chinese also do not stand still, they are developing satellite constellations, and their merchant fleet is present on all oceans and seas. As well as their sales representatives. With Chinese centralization, organization and purposefulness, these sources provide a huge array of information. They are also working on naval reconnaissance and anti-submarine aviation, working out new methods for detecting underwater objects using lidar and the radar method.
      But they need another 10-15 years of sustainable development in order for their fleet to become a real and effective force capable of challenging the United States and its allies. And the United States does not fight alone. So far, the PRC fleet is too young, but the growth rate of its number and quality of ships is already a direct challenge to the United States. And time will play here against the waning hegemon.

      It is a pity that the Russian Federation does not shine at this celebration of life - full-fledged ship power plants have not been born for so many years. And the competitors have all gone far ahead. And you won’t go far in one submarine fleet.
      1. +4
        29 July 2022 20: 28
        "But the United States does not fight alone." ///
        ----
        This is a very important note.
        It is not individual countries that win, but alliances of countries.
        Japan and Australia must be added to the US fleet in the Pacific. Plus economic support for India.
        1. +5
          30 July 2022 00: 30
          Japan and Australia must be added to the US fleet in the Pacific.

          So fleets do not fight, countries fight. So add on to the ships and rockets with vigorous loaves. Because any skirmish of ships more serious than "bulk" or firing "ahead of the course" will end with ICBM firing at capitals
          Nuclear weapons have changed everything. I was thinking - the landing operation of England in the Falklands failed, would the British go for a nuclear strike? Undoubtedly. And Argentina would back down. And if Argentina has an ICBM? Here the question would already arise - who needs these islands like air. And there would be no war from the very beginning.
          1. -4
            30 July 2022 00: 43
            China and the US are unlikely to start exchanging ICBM strikes on capitals like the US and Russia. In the Pacific, a war for influence is brewing, nothing more, and not "everything is in ruins, we will all die or go to heaven."
            Even the use of tactical nuclear weapons there, most likely, will not cause strikes on cities.
            1. +2
              30 July 2022 15: 07
              Do you think that China will swallow a nuclear strike on its territory?
              Or the excesses of the US fleet under its shore?
              The US has already recognized Taiwan as part of China, so what they are doing now is encroaching on territorial integrity and encouraging separatism. Exactly the same Anglo-Saxons are rampaging in / in the former Ukraine - an integral part of Russia, the border of which was not even demarcated ... therefore, this pseudo-state simply does not have legal borders and territory.
              Quote: voyaka uh
              In the Pacific, a war for influence is brewing, nothing more, and not "everything is in ruins, we will all die or go to heaven."

              And what will happen to China if it concedes in this fight?
              They realize it. Therefore, their new ICBMs are deployed in hundreds of pieces. , and a fleet is being built.
              Or do you assume that the United States will launch a nuclear strike if China seizes Formosa?
              Never!
              But they will threaten, play on the verge of a foul - they are already starting. As with us - already. And who will run out of angelic patience first (for us or for China) will be shown in the near future. Destroying the United States is a matter of one strong-willed decision. I would give this honor to China... China would like to cede this honor to us. For us, this would not even require the use of ICBMs and SLBMs ... But the United States still imagines itself to be the navel of the earth.
              1. -2
                30 July 2022 17: 58
                "To destroy the USA is a matter of one strong-willed decision" ///
                ----
                Destroy the USA and commit suicide.
                Russia has voiced that it is ready for this.
                To get to heaven.
                But the Chinese are atheists and pragmatists.
                They are not ready to die at the cost of the death of the United States.
                And therefore, there is a possibility of an exchange of blows strictly on military targets, without touching the city.
                1. 0
                  30 July 2022 19: 36
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  there is a possibility of an exchange of blows strictly on military targets, without touching the city.

                  I like this too.
              2. -3
                30 July 2022 20: 00
                There is nothing to destroy, neither China, nor the Russian Federation, nor the United States itself have such a number of warheads.
                1. +2
                  30 July 2022 22: 47
                  Did I mention warheads?
                  There are more radical and reliable methods and tools than ICBMs. Has already .
                  And do not underestimate China - it has got a very good ICBM in terms of capabilities and power almost at the level of the Soviet "Molodets" (which went to the BZHRK), and they intend to have several hundred of them in service only in mine design ... But they are already in service worth its mobile version.
                  China's SLBMs also turned out well.
                  And the Russian Federation today not only accepts one new SSBN per year, but ... and is in no hurry to write off the old, but proven and very effective Dolphin SSBNs with Sineva and Liner SLBMs.
                  SALT Framework Agreements ?
                  NOW ? laughing
                  And "Sarmat" also went into service.
                  And the "Voevoda" are still standing.
                  But these are all safety nets. It will not be them who will radically solve the issue.
      2. +1
        30 July 2022 09: 50
        Quote: bayard
        The Chinese don't stand still either.

        I hope so.
        Quote: bayard
        It’s a pity that the Russian Federation doesn’t shine at this celebration of life anymore - they haven’t given birth to full-fledged ship power plants for so many years

        Alas, but it is. And this is another state crime of state leaders at the ministerial level and above. In "breakthrough" areas, it is necessary to change the economics of work so that the designers have the right to make mistakes and less writing justifications in front of asses sitting on bags of money. In experimental design work, the chief designer should manage the money.
        1. +2
          30 July 2022 15: 17
          Quote: Galleon
          And this is another state crime of state leaders at the ministerial level and above.

          Several court verdicts on the highest measure of social responsibility for a number of ministers and even vice-premiers, as well as the top leadership of the financial sector, can very quickly clear the Avigean Stables - the rest will scatter themselves before the threat of responsibility.
          I think that for an official of any level, responsibility for non-compliance with the state defense order should be CRIMINAL. And be equated with high treason and sabotage.
          The effectiveness of this practice has been tested by time.
          1. -4
            30 July 2022 20: 03
            Start with yourself, violated the deadline, etc.
            1. +1
              30 July 2022 22: 51
              As whom should I start with myself?
              I am neither Mr. an official or a contractor of the State Defense Order.
  9. +5
    29 July 2022 07: 49
    And now-it's not a great country? I think if Russia had such characteristics or close to them, we would rightfully consider ourselves a great power.
  10. +2
    29 July 2022 09: 26
    The article is interesting, although not without flaws. The battleship "King George V" was not even considered a masterpiece by the British themselves. And if you compare it with American peers like North Carolina, then the Americans are definitely better. About "Iowa" I generally keep quiet.
    1. +6
      29 July 2022 16: 53
      Quote: TermNachTER
      The battleship "King George V" was not even considered a masterpiece by the British themselves.

      "Kingam" great podgadil artillery. The problems of the "Prince", which remained at the end of the battle with the "Bismarck" with half the guns and the inoperative stern main gun, can still be attributed to a hasty surrender and the green team (the main gun was handed over less than a month before the battle). But two and a half years later, the "Duke" had the same problems in the battle with the "Charles" - 446 shells were fired, 241 shots were missed. And again, in the list of faults, the same mechanisms for supplying shells and charges ...
      It would be better if the limes took the towers from the Nelsons - they also suffered with them for 15 years, but by 1939 they were able to bring them to mind.
      1. +3
        29 July 2022 20: 46
        The Rodney also had problems with the main gun turrets when they sank the Bismarck. Yes, wire-winding tools were already frankly outdated. My purely personal opinion is that the Britons "flogged the fever" with these battleships. Their construction and operation before the start of WWII cost tens of millions of pounds. Art. And participation in the war was almost symbolic. It was possible to wait ten years, in the mid-30s to build two normal battleships. And with the money allocated by the Parliament, to make a major overhaul, with the modernization of the "Tiger".
        1. +2
          30 July 2022 11: 12
          Quote: TermNachTER
          And participation in the war was almost symbolic

          Wow, symbolic.
          Quote: TermNachTER
          And with the money allocated by the Parliament, to make a major overhaul, with the modernization of the "Tiger".

          ??? Why is this?
          1. +2
            30 July 2022 11: 24
            Remind me - in what battles did Nelson and Rodney participate? The sinking of the Bismarck and Pedestal, in which they were used as targets for Axis aircraft. There were plans to modernize the "Tiger" to the level of "Hood" and even came to the development of working drawings, but they were abandoned due to lack of funds. If the Tiger had been modernized, then in 1939 the British would have had two Hoods and two Ripulses. Then "Hood" could have been upgraded in the 30s.
            1. +1
              30 July 2022 11: 42
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Remind me - in what battles did Nelson and Rodney participate?

              remind me - in what battles did the British fleet participate in WWII? Apparently, his participation in the war, in your opinion, was also "purely symbolic", because the KVMF did not give a single major battle, with the exception, perhaps, of the Catopult alone
              Quote: TermNachTER
              There were plans to upgrade the "Tiger" to the level of "Hood"

              laughing This is almost the same as trying to upgrade "Glory" to the level of "Empress Maria".
              Quote: TermNachTER
              If the "Tiger" were modernized, then in 1939 the British would have two "thin"

              One and a half. And taking into account what could really be done from the "Tiger", it would be better to send it to the needles immediately at the beginning of WWII - in this case, it would be much more useful in the war
              1. 0
                30 July 2022 13: 11
                Neither "Rodney" nor "Nelson" participated in "Catapult". The modernization of the "Tiger" was supposed to be deep, even more than the "Queen Elizabeth". It was supposed to replace the KTU, main battery turrets, with those removed from the Furies and Glories, and the replacement of the main armor belt, also from the decommissioned battleships. It should have turned out practically "Hood". Personally, I see this as a much more reasonable step than two battleships, which were already completely outdated by WWII.
                1. +3
                  30 July 2022 14: 22
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Neither "Rodney" nor "Nelson" participated in "Catapult".

                  Like the vast majority of the CVMF. I say - in your logic, the CVMF is not needed, since it did not participate in serious battles.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  The modernization of the "Tiger" was supposed to be deep, even more than the "Queen Elizabeth". It was supposed to replace the KTU, main battery turrets, with those removed from the Furies and Glories, and the replacement of the main armor belt, also from the decommissioned battleships.

                  Nikolay, well... You know shipbuilding.
                  In WWII, battleships already had new armor, it was significantly stronger than the classic Krupp WWII. And British military-built 305-mm LCs had only a small part of the armored belt. Will a ship with at least a 240-mm armor belt brought to King George V help you much? No armor from whatever LC you removed it could close to give Tiger adequate protection.
                  What about deck armor? There are also orphan tears in general. It also needs to be strengthened. And you still want to install 381-mm towers. What will be the overload? And the PTZ, which is not? At least they put boules on modernized battleships. What about air defense?
                  You will never and never make a more or less decent LCR from a ship of 35 Kt of full displacement by the standards of WWII. It's just physically impossible. Even the ships of the new project, built in 35 Kt of standard (and not full) displacement, almost all
                  1) At this weight, they didn’t work out and were harder
                  2) Had serious vulnerabilities in some parameter
                  So these are new-built ships, where elementary hull steel is much stronger, that is, if the strength is equal to that of the WWI ship, the weight of the hull will be less.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  It should have turned out practically "Hood".

                  It could not turn out "practically thin" under any circumstances, since Hood was originally a quarter heavier.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Personally, I see this as a much more reasonable step than two battleships, which were already completely outdated by WWII.

                  Nelson and Rodney were quite strong support LCs, with relatively decent air defense and capable of fighting one on one with any Italian or German battleship. "Tiger", no matter how you modernize it, at best will equalize in strength (but not in speed) with the "Scharnhorst".
                  1. 0
                    30 July 2022 15: 08
                    "Tiger" upon entry into service had 29 thousand tons of normal displacement and 35 thousand full. With the modernization and installation of boules, he could catch up with the Hood in terms of displacement. The "Hood" also had WWI armor, as did the "Nelson" with the "Rodney". New armor appeared only on the Kings. And this difference in booking did not have any global consequences. "Rinaun" or "Repulse", I don't remember, fought alone against "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau". The British have GBP 229 mm., the Germans have 350 mm. In the end, Lutyens chose to retreat.
                    1. +2
                      30 July 2022 18: 54
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      "Tiger" upon entry into service had 29 thousand tons of normal displacement and 35 thousand full. With the modernization and installation of boules, he could catch up with the Hood in terms of displacement.

                      Becoming a submarine. Sorry, but the displacement of ships does not grow like that, unless you embed new sections into the hull
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      The "Hood" also had WWI armor, as did the "Nelson" with the "Rodney".

                      Only here it is impossible to bring the amount of armor on the Tiger to the level of Hood - the ship will sink.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Yes, and this difference in booking did not have any global consequences.

                      Until they get into the ship, it doesn't.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      "Rinaun" or "Repulse", I don't remember, fought alone against "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau". The British have GBP 229 mm., the Germans have 350 mm. In the end, Lutyens chose to retreat.

                      Because the Germans were not initially going to fight with an equivalent enemy, and began to retreat immediately after they were discovered. And Renaun could not catch up with them ... But no one tried to make "Hood" out of him.
                      1. 0
                        30 July 2022 21: 59
                        The Italians "hit" their battleships into sections of 10 meters each and nothing, it turned out pretty well, the speed increased. What prevented us from doing the same on the "Tiger" plus boules, so there were 40 thousand displacements. Yes, and PTZ would have won.
                      2. 0
                        30 July 2022 22: 03
                        Z.Y. For some reason, the Germans always preferred to retreat))) even on Christmas of the 43rd year))) and if Whitworth at first did not know that both battlecruisers were against him, then Lutyens knew that there was only one "old man" against him. And if against him there was a "doped" "Tiger" - 8 X 380 - mm. and the main belt is 305 - mm., then he would have run even "more fun".
                      3. +2
                        31 July 2022 12: 01
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The Italians "hit" their battleships into sections of 10 meters each and nothing, it turned out pretty well, the speed increased.

                        It is precisely the modernization of the Italian LCs that shows the futility of the modernization of the Tiger. The Italians increased the displacement of their ships by 15,5-17,3%. The result - the thickest 250 mm belt completely went under water, and even 220 mm barely stuck out above it. The deck was strengthened by 50-70 mm within the citadel, which, generally speaking, is quite good, but not at all on a par with the threats from 356-381 mm shells.
                        That is, the protection of the ship, as it was absolutely "leaky" at all distances of the artillery battle, remained the same.
                        Speed ​​- increased by 5 knots. rough. This allowed the Italians to get away from an equivalent enemy, since they could not fight the English battleships at any distance. On the one hand - an achievement, of course ...
                        PTZ - they didn’t dare to put the boules, they limited themselves to the internal alteration of the compartments for Pugliese pipes. PTZ has become better ... not much. "Cavour" sank from being hit by just ONE air torpedo - moreover, in its native base, in which there were more opportunities for damage control than on the high seas. The metacenter fell below the plinth.
                        Now see what you want.
                        The Italians did not strengthen the vertical armor of the battleships, although there is evidence that the upper belt was nevertheless strengthened from 130 to 152 mm. But it is not exactly. You want a radical increase in vertical armor. That is, you want a lot more than the Italians did.
                        In the part of the horizontal armor, even strengthening it according to the Italian recipe, you will get weaker protection than the Italian one - those were originally protected a little better than the Tiger. That is, in order to tighten the defense to the same Hood or close, you will have to spend much more weight than the Italians.
                        The descendants of the ancient Romans abandoned the PTZ, which was stupid. You do not want to do this, which means that there will be a loss of speed, so you will have to strengthen the power plant according to the Italian method by installing new cars and boilers. Well, OK, set. But the Italians lightened the ship in order to install new mechanisms. They removed one of the main battery turrets from it, which freed up weights and volumes. And you don’t want to remove one tower from the Tiger :)))) You want to make its artillery armament heavier by putting 343-mm towers instead of 381 mm :))))
                        In other words, you want a much more "heavy" modernization "than the Italians did, well, the result will be appropriate - a submarine :)
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Z.Y. For some reason, the Germans always preferred to retreat)))

                        Of course. They did not have the task of fighting with ships of equal value, they had to hunt for convoys.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        even on Christmas 43rd year)))

                        Nikolay, and you put yourself in the place of the commanders of the Germans of those ships. You have been caulked into the fjords, where you simply cannot conduct combat training normally. You didn’t see anything strange in the fact that the Germans in the Atlantic shot accurately enough, but when they moved to the north, did they immediately begin to shamelessly smear?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And if against him there was a "doped" "Tiger" - 8 X 380 - mm. and the main belt is 305 - mm., then he would have run even "more fun".

                        And if instead of Tiger there would be Nelson or Rodney, he would run exactly at the same speed. And neither Rodney, nor Renaun, nor Tiger would have caught up with him.
                        And what is the profit from "Tiger"?
                      4. 0
                        31 July 2022 15: 10
                        I spoke about deep modernization. Hull extension + boules, draft remained the same. Higher main belt, from one of the "Iron Duke" - 305 mm. Eight "Admiralty" boilers + TZA. His speed would be the same - 30 knots. It was about deep modernization. About Christmas the 43rd. What you are saying is probably right somewhere. But, a "pocket battleship", a heavy cruiser and six destroyers against four British ones, of which only one has a 120-mm GK, the rest are 102-mm. Isn't that a disgrace?
                      5. +1
                        31 July 2022 17: 59
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I was talking about deep modernization

                        So what am I talking about?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Hull extension + boules, draft remained the same.

                        Why would you? The Italians did not lengthen the hull, but, in fact, a nozzle on the nose, the participation in displacement there is minimal. And you want at least 40 thousand tons, this is 5 thousand cubic meters that you need to shove under water so that the sediment does not increase.
                        Higher main belt, from one of the "Iron Duke" - 305 mm.

                        Where? :)))) Tiger's belt (229 mm section) is higher than Duke's 305 mm. Roughly speaking, for Tiger 229 mm goes from the bevel of the armored deck to the middle deck, while for Duke 305 mm is a narrow strip along the waterline, which thins to 229 mm to the middle deck, and down to the bevels - up to 203 mm, if Parks don't lie to us :)
                        But the funny thing is that Tiger has its 229 mm section - only 98 m, Duke has a little more - 102 m, only, having changed one for another, the bow towers of the main battery, as they were protected by as much as 127 mm armored belt, remained laughing Well, a Very Powerfully Armored Ship, yes.
                        Want 305mm armor plates all over the citadel? Yes, no question. Change 229 mm plates for 305 mm at a length of 98 m and 127 mm plates for 305 mm somewhere else at 55-60 meters. And it will cost you only some 1050-1100 tons of additional weight. Strengthen the deck by 8 centimeters of armor? In the area of ​​the citadel only? At least another 2 tons if you please. Change the artillery of the Civil Code? Not a question, on the scales of the towers alone, if you please, another 400 tons, and taking into account the ammunition, it will go for 800 tons already.
                        And the traverses - as they were, remained zero zero and the primary male sexual characteristic along the length - as much as 102 mm .. And the GK barbets - as they were 229 mm above the upper deck and 76 mm below - remained. Oh, yes, they will have to be expanded for new towers, so even if you retain the same armor, the weight will still creep up ...
                        And anti-aircraft artillery and all sorts of other innovations?
                        Eight "Admiralty" boilers + TZA. His speed would be the same - 30 knots.

                        What kind of boilers and TZA are these, may I ask? What ship are you targeting?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        But, a "pocket battleship", a heavy cruiser and six destroyers against four British ones, of which only one has a 120-mm GK, the rest are 102-mm. Isn't that a disgrace?

                        The question is not what is a disgrace, but what is not. The Germans, of course, disgraced themselves on New Year's Eve, but only the fact that the Germans periodically screwed up in the actions of the surface forces in no way relates to the prospects of Tiger's modernization
                      6. 0
                        31 July 2022 20: 44
                        You only count in +. Weight 39 coal-fired boilers and 8 new, oil-fired. We remove one pipe or even two, respectively, chimneys, on the "Quins" all eight boilers went into one pipe. The machine team is reduced by 200 people, respectively, there are less volumes for accommodation, less food, less water. So for an additional booking is quite enough. Plus boules that will keep the draft at the same level.
                      7. 0
                        31 July 2022 20: 47
                        Z.Y. Regarding the armored belt "Iron Duke", plates 305 - mm. could be taken from two battleships or three. In the 20s they were written off in batches.
                      8. +1
                        31 July 2022 22: 24
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Regarding the armored belt "Iron Duke", plates 305 - mm. could be taken from two battleships or three.

                        Can. How much will it weigh - reported above
                      9. 0
                        31 July 2022 22: 34
                        Z.Y. Have you calculated the weight of 39 boilers, boiler water, condensers, steam lines, etc.? Plus coal, I don’t remember how much better oil is than coal in terms of energy value.
                      10. +1
                        31 July 2022 22: 24
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        You only count in +.

                        So you wrote only in +
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Weight 39 coal-fired boilers and 8 new, oil-fired.

                        I'm asking - what kind of boilers? By analogy with what ship?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        We remove one pipe or even two, respectively, chimneys, on the "Quins" all eight boilers went out into one pipe.

                        You can do everything, maybe even save 100 tons on this, but - just explain all the same first for the boilers and turbines that you want to put on the ship
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The machine team is reduced by 200 people, respectively, there are less volumes for accommodation, less food, less water.

                        forget, this increase in air defense will eat up and there will be too much.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Plus boules that will keep the draft at the same level.

                        And they will turn the ship into a "priest" ....
                        You want to increase the tonnage of a thousand by at least 7-8 tons. Accordingly, to compensate for this, boules should have an underwater volume of 7-8 thousand cubic meters or 3,5-4 thousand cubic meters per board. Taking into account the fact that the boules cannot fall below the keel and cannot stretch from the stem to the stern of the ship, we have 8 cubes / 000 m / 8,7 m = 150 meters wide, provided that the boules are a parallelepiped. And there everything is more complicated, so the width of the ship in the widest part will increase much more ...
                        Oh yes, even the modest boules of Ramillis were pulled by 1500 tons
                      11. 0
                        31 July 2022 22: 29
                        Standard "Admiralty" boilers, which were on the "Quins" and, accordingly, TZA from there. The same four-shaft scheme.
                      12. +1
                        31 July 2022 22: 46
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Standard "Admiralty" boilers, which were on the "Quins" and, accordingly, TZA from there. The same four-shaft scheme.

                        Eee... what? :))))
                        Tiger's power plant had a mass of 5 tons and could develop a rating of 755 hp. at which the ship developed 85 knots.
                        EU Queen Elizabeth weighed 3 tons at a rated power of 950 hp.
                        In order to achieve the same power on the Queen Elizabeth power plant as that of the Tiger (that is, 85 kiloponies), the mass of the power plant must be 5 tons !!! wassat am
                        That is, you change the less heavy Tiger EC for a heavier one of the same power! Bravo, sir! soldier
                      13. 0
                        31 July 2022 23: 11
                        Don't you consider the difference in the length and width of the battlecruiser and the battleship? How much shorter and wider is the queen?
                      14. 0
                        31 July 2022 23: 18
                        Z.Y. During tests in 1939, both battleships produced more than 80 thousand horses. 56 - that was in 000.
                      15. +2
                        1 August 2022 08: 00
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Don't you consider the difference in the length and width of the battlecruiser and the battleship?

                        Are you already joking with a poor Jew? :))) What place is the length / width here?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Z.Y. During tests in 1939, both battleships produced more than 80 thousand horses. 56 - that was in 000.

                        Nikolai, tell me, as a stoker to a stoker, do you understand the difference between rated power and afterburner?
                        For Queens 56 hp in 000, this is the denomination. In the afterburner, the same Warspite showed 1915 thousand hp. (the speed at the same time was 75 knots), Barham - 510 hp. Then, in the mid-24,65s, they changed the power plant and yes, they are for 76 thousand hp. could leave. On the afterburner :))))
                        And the "Tiger" developed 85 hp at nominal value. That is, "Tiger" on its old power plant gave more than the Queens on the new one. But the Tiger, on its 000 kiloponies, developed only about 85 knots. And even boosting their mechanisms to (attention!) 28 hp. showed 104 knots!
                        And you propose to overload the "Tiger" by 8 thousand tons at least (it will actually be more), increase its width with boules, and, by installing a less powerful power plant than it had before, achieve 30 knots! wassat
                        In reality, with your innovations, the speed of the upgraded "Tiger" will be ... well, it's useless to count through the Admiralty coefficient here, because the geometry changes a lot, but I would offhand give 25-26 knots in afterburner, that is, no more than an hour for three .
                      16. 0
                        1 August 2022 14: 35
                        We are talking about different power plants of the Queens. The one that was in 1915 - 56 hp, which in the 000th - 39.
                        "Tiger" in 1915 had 85 thousand. horses - normal power, with afterburner exceeded 100 thousand. The ratio of length to width is a very important characteristic for a ship. Regarding the 200 engine crews, they will go to air defense, but where will you put the 152-mm calculations. - as many as 12, no less than 150 people. Minus the mass of the gun mounts themselves, armor - the weight savings are decent.
                      17. +2
                        1 August 2022 15: 26
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        We are talking about different power plants of the Queens. The one that was in 1915 - 56 hp, which in the 000th - 39.

                        Once again :))) The one that was in 1915 developed a nominal value of 56 hp. and afterburner - up to 000 hp The one that was installed during the modernization developed up to 76 hp. afterburner
                        As evidence, I will refer to Mikhailov's "Queen Elizabeth-class battleships" (about Warspite)
                        24 "Yarrow" wide-tube boilers were replaced by 6 "Admiral's" high-pressure water-tube boilers with narrow tubes. The new installation was designed for a capacity of 80 thousand hp. compared to 75 thousand hp former.

                        That is, it is precisely the "afterburner" power that is indicated.
                        And here is the report of the British themselves on the tests of Valiant
                        On February 25, sea trials were carried out with a long maximum load of turbines. The weather was good, wind force 4 points. After a brief test of the rudders, the test of the mechanisms began, which was soon terminated due to the strong vibration of the x and y turbines. The next day, the turbines were opened and the reason was found: coils of wire were forgotten in the turbine casing. The damage was not serious, and later they reached 80301 hp in tests.

                        But the most important thing - yes, indeed, on the new EU it was possible to win by weight. The British on Queen Elizabeth (not on all battleships, but specifically on this one), having received a slight increase in several thousand horses, reduced the weight of the power plant by about 1500 tons. But it was not in vain that I asked you about this ... Because the British achieved such a result by putting the ship into modernization after 1937. And during the construction of Nelson and Rodney, the British, of course, did not have such power plants yet.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Regarding the 200 engine crews, they will go to air defense, but where will you put the 152-mm calculations. - as many as 12, no less than 150 people.

                        Put in 114mm sparks - and they will "gobble up" a lot more. And "pom-pom"? And small-caliber machine guns? too lazy to look, but the single-barreled 37-mm 61-K crew had 7 people.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Minus the mass of the gun mounts themselves, armor - the weight savings are decent.

                        Does not work. No way to remove armor, weaken the overall protection of barbettes and chimneys.
                        By the way, after the modernization, the mass of artillery weapons "Queen Elizabeth" increased by 600 tons
                      18. 0
                        1 August 2022 15: 43
                        I do not think that four eight-barrel "pom-poms" will require 150 people, and more "pom-poms" were not expected, as of the mid-30s. 61 - K is a slightly different song.
                      19. +1
                        1 August 2022 18: 45
                        And with four pumps, no one would shoot medium artillery - they either changed it to 114-mm anti-aircraft guns, or left it as it is
                      20. +1
                        31 July 2022 13: 28
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        and if Whitworth did not know at first that both battlecruisers were against him, then Lutyens knew that there was only one "old man" against him

                        Lutyens knew that against him least one of the pair "Perestroika" - "Alteration". The problem was that he overestimated the LKR escort, considering it to be more powerful than it actually was.
                        However, in those weather conditions, this is not surprising. Limey, even a month after the fight, believed that one of their opponents was "Hipper". smile
                      21. +1
                        31 July 2022 11: 00
                        I will answer below, so as not to produce discussion threads
        2. +2
          30 July 2022 11: 20
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Their construction and operation before the start of WWII cost tens of millions of pounds. Art.

          Looked at Dashyan
          On September 1, 1, the Admiralty approved the final specifications and draft design, and on October 1, construction drawings. On the same day, invitations to tender for the construction of new ships were sent to the shipyards. After considering the proposals, on November 922, the Admiralty chose the proposals of the shipyards Cam Mell Laird (£1) and Armstrong (£6). st. ) .
          The official issuance of orders took place on January 1, 1
          1. 0
            30 July 2022 13: 18
            The Nelson and Rodney cost about £7,5 million to build. Art. each. The content of the Hood in the interwar period, about 400 thousand ft. Art. - this is without repairs and upgrades. Both battleships, from the moment they entered service until 1939. cost the budget of England somewhere around 20 million each.
            1. +1
              30 July 2022 14: 42
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The Nelson and Rodney cost about £7,5 million to build. Art. each. The content of the Hood in the interwar period, about 400 thousand ft. Art. - this is without repairs and upgrades.

              Even if we consider the content in the amount of Hood, and he had 270 thousand pounds before modernization. Art. 400 thousand per year - after the modernization of 1931, then even then it turns out
              7,5 million buildings + 0,4 million * 12 years = £12,3 million
        3. +2
          30 July 2022 15: 36
          Quote: TermNachTER
          The Rodney also had problems with the main gun turrets when they sank the Bismarck.

          "Rodney" had no problems against the background of "Prince".
          Problems are when, even before the battle, the gun of the four-gun bow turret fails, because the feed mechanism has broken. The problem is when, in the only aft turret on the LC leaving the enemy, in the midst of a battle, a projectile that has fallen out of the feed system in the reloading compartment jams and deforms the annular reloading table and trays, as a result of which all main guns of the main guns of the aft sector remain without shells for two hours. Problems are when in combat the rammers have to be helped with sledgehammers, they also correct the fireproof doors of the feed system (which are deformed from the blows of the feed mechanism parts), and the limit switches are closed manually. smile
          1. 0
            30 July 2022 15: 47
            In the book about "Rodney" and "Nelson", the battle in the Danish Strait is described in detail. During the battle, the "Rodney" had both failures and misses of volleys, and even one of the main battery towers failed. You can read.
            1. +2
              30 July 2022 16: 39
              EMNIP, "Rodney" had most of the problems with the hydraulics of the drives (cracks in pipelines, knocked out gaskets, weakening of connections from shaking during firing) and with the effect of powder gases from main guns on decks and below-deck spaces.
              By the way, as on the "Prince", the "Rodney" had a complete failure of the bow gun of the BSh GK. smile
              The main problem of "Rodney" was that, despite the concentration of the BSh GK in the bow, the "rear" tower X could not fire for most of the battle, since the LK kept the enemy on the bow KU, and for the tower X the target was outside the sectors shooting. In numbers, it looks like this: out of 22 Rodney salvos (more precisely, half-volleys), the target was in the sector of a full broadside salvo in only 5 salvos, and in 17 salvos only two towers could work on it.
              Rodney fired 5 salvos with her A arcs open at from 0848-0901:59 and 17 salvos with A arcs closed.

              Plus, I was pleased with the personnel in the cellars, who twice sent two charges upstairs instead of a charge and a projectile.

              And "King" in the same battle collected the whole bunch of problems of "Prince". Tower A was out of action for half an hour in full force, and the feed system just as pleased with problems with rammers and fireproof doors.
              1. +1
                30 July 2022 18: 07
                The fact that the X turret would have small aiming angles was understood even during the design, but they went for it, because it was not possible to "squeeze" normal armor into 35 thousand tons of displacement and the main battery. But, if sclerosis does not fail me, for 30-40 minutes tower B failed.
  11. -2
    29 July 2022 10: 03
    When the three countries - the Celestial Empire, the Rising Sun and the Morning Calm unite (never say never)) this is where the Anglo-Saxons will be disintegrated)
    1. +4
      29 July 2022 21: 34
      Quote: Monster
      When the three countries - the Celestial Empire, the Rising Sun and the Morning Calm unite (never say never)) this is where the Anglo-Saxons will be disintegrated)

      This will happen when "the last living rat that ate the others remains in the jar." All three hate each other.
  12. +4
    29 July 2022 10: 47
    Yes, masterpieces like "Yamato" or "King George the Fifth" were not built in the USA.

    And what is the masterpiece of "Kings"?
    1. +3
      29 July 2022 11: 16
      Apparently in the fact that these were the only modern battleships of the Royal Navy in World War II, the Vengard practically did not have time for the war.
    2. 0
      30 July 2022 07: 54
      And Iowa is average. belay
      Ага.
      1. +2
        30 July 2022 15: 44
        Quote: mmaxx
        And Iowa is average. belay

        "Hood" at the maximum. smile Trading defense for speed.
        1. +1
          30 July 2022 18: 27
          How be ... 9 barrels of the best 406 mm gun. With the LMS, which they didn’t even begin to replace in the 80s, because it satisfied ... Normal booking against classmates. It makes no sense to talk about speed, anti-aircraft guns and electronics. Because the best. What an American can do is shown by Massachusetts against the French. BUT! I forgot energy. And all this with an excellent cruising range.
          Any classmate, except for “Yamato”, “Iowa” would endure calmly.
          Well, and so, in general. Life has shown that the Americans, with everything else, understand the war at sea. Unlike some... land powers.
          1. +2
            30 July 2022 19: 24
            Quote: mmaxx
            How be ... 9 barrels of the best 406 mm gun.

            Because the only one :)))) What can you do, modern guns of this caliber were made only by the Americans.
            Quote: mmaxx
            With the MSA, which they didn’t even begin to replace in the 80s, because it satisfied ...

            Sure? The radar has been changed for sure.
            Quote: mmaxx
            Normal booking against classmates.

            Just against classmates, booking, to put it mildly .... was not very good. Not at all.
            Quote: mmaxx
            It makes no sense to talk about speed, anti-aircraft guns and electronics. Because the best.

            Yes.
            Quote: mmaxx
            What an American can do is shown by Massachusetts against the French.

            Well, yes, for an hour and a half of shooting at a worthwhile target - as many as 7 hits ... Already showed, so showed laughing
            Quote: mmaxx
            Any classmate, except for “Yamato”, “Iowa” would endure calmly.

            Very controversial statement.
            1. 0
              31 July 2022 06: 03
              "Massachusetts" not only fired at a standing target. Yes, and the percentage of hits from heavy ships in WWII was probably lower than in WWII. The war has changed. Rigid wakes, ala Rozhdestvensky, are gone. That the same Cunningham did not stop trolling his gunners.
              And as for other battleships ... You can look at the damage from 406 mm at Jean Bar. The French, it seems, had the best defense?
              1. +1
                31 July 2022 10: 40
                Quote: mmaxx
                "Massachusetts" not only fired at a standing target.

                For an hour and a half, he shot precisely at Jean Bar
                Quote: mmaxx
                Yes, and the percentage of hits from heavy ships in WWII was probably lower than in WWII.

                The percentage of hits was lower only when they fired at distances significantly greater than in WWI. At the corresponding distances and other things being equal, it was not lower.
                Quote: mmaxx
                The war has changed. Rigid wakes, ala Rozhdestvensky, are gone.

                I’m even afraid to ask why the wake didn’t please you
                Quote: mmaxx
                And as for other battleships ... You can look at the damage from 406 mm at Jean Bar.

                We will not see the main thing there - the impact of their shells on Massachusetts
            2. 0
              31 July 2022 06: 12
              A standing goal does not mean simple. The French were firing. You can't stand still. So you have to spin. And this is the time. In this case, everything is even somewhat more complicated than the usual naval battle on parallel courses. Shooting data changes quickly. Yes, and the fire was transferred to other ships all the time.
              1. +2
                31 July 2022 10: 58
                Quote: mmaxx
                A standing goal does not mean simple.

                Agas :)))) But it is easier than moving
                Quote: mmaxx
                The French were firing.

                good laughing Yes, of course, if the Americans were shooting at a target that did not return fire to them, that's when ...
                Quote: mmaxx
                You can't stand still. So you have to spin. And this is the time. In this case, everything is even somewhat more complicated than the usual naval battle on parallel courses. Shooting data changes quickly.

                No one was spinning there, Massachusetts dodged torpedoes later.
                Shooting at a standing target is much easier than shooting at a moving one. Simply because you always know exactly the parameters of the movement of your ship, and it is easy to take an amendment from them. The problem is always - to determine correctly the parameters of the movement of the enemy ship, without which the two determining quantities - the magnitude of the change in distance (VIR) and bearing (VIP) cannot be determined.
                Quote: mmaxx
                In this case, everything is even somewhat more complicated than the usual naval battle on parallel courses.

                MUCH easier, because there is no "combat on parallel courses". Courses are either converging or diverging, while ships, having a general course, also sometimes make coordinates, falling under fire, they can maneuver with speed, as our Goebens fooled at the Bosphorus, for example.
                Quote: mmaxx
                Yes, and the fire was transferred to other ships all the time.

                Not transferable
              2. +1
                31 July 2022 13: 10
                Quote: mmaxx
                A standing goal does not mean simple. The French were firing.

                Four two-gun volleys for the entire battle.
                Quote: mmaxx
                Yes, and the fire was transferred to other ships all the time.

                No. "Massachusetts" fired only on "Jean Bar" from 07:04 to 08:33. And only after that, at 09:18, fire was opened on the KR and EM of the 2nd light squadron, and the LK began to evade torpedoes.
          2. +1
            31 July 2022 13: 08
            Quote: mmaxx
            9 barrels of the best 406 mm gun.

            He-he-he ... which appeared by chance - as a result of a designer's mistake when developing the Iowa hull. So the Iowas should have inherited the 16/50 left over from the victims of the Washington Agreement.
            Quote: mmaxx
            Normal booking against classmates.

            Yeah ... until the Yankees published real data on body armor. And until Nathan Okun reworked his formula for calculating the thickness of the screen for removing the cap from the BBS for the third time, after which the Iowa skin turned from a "screen" back into a regular skin. smile
            Quote: mmaxx
            What an American can do is shown by Massachusetts against the French.

            At exactly. © Without a single hit, losing power and the radar purely from your salvos - you need to be able to do this. smile
            And I don’t want to say anything, but the shooting of an unfinished ship standing at the wall with one half-working BShGK (commissioned only on 19.05.1942/5/XNUMX, at the same time it performed training firing the only time) - is this really the best example of an American LK battle? You should at least remember "SoDak" with "Washington" ... Although "Sodak", with its mess in the warhead-XNUMX, is better not to. smile
            1. 0
              31 July 2022 14: 20
              We'll be happy to sort out any skirmish afterward. Let's find all the fools and give everyone an estimate. But, if "Jean Bar" was ready, then most likely it would have been ready.
              Everything is accidental, everything is a mess, everything is d and about you. Only the result is not like that of a good Admiral Rozhdestvensky.
              If you look at how many ships and under what circumstances the same British lost, you gasp. But the result ...., it is.
  13. +1
    29 July 2022 11: 36
    In the tactics of achieving superiority at sea, nothing has changed for the Americans. The main strike force of the Americans remained based on the AUG. After all, China has long shown strike missiles that level the power of the AUG. In fact, the future belongs to multi-purpose strike ships like the destroyer.
    1. +7
      29 July 2022 17: 27
      Quote: APASUS
      .In fact, the future belongs to multi-purpose attack ships of the destroyer type.

      The future (as well as the present) belongs to the synergy of all components of the fleet - surface and submarine forces, naval aviation - both base and carrier-based, the presence of bases in all parts of the world, and primarily on the proposed theater of operations, the availability of sufficient ship repair facilities, high-quality crew training, quality and scale of our own shipbuilding industry, clear goal-setting, long-term planning and strict implementation of all goals and objectives.
      And by the way, the United States even now has the opportunity to bring a sufficient number of SSB-carriers of the Kyrgyz Republic to the attack lines and take out the entire critical military infrastructure of the PRC with the very first salvo. From dagger distance. And only then to bring into action the rest of the forces of the fleet and the Air Force. And China is aware of this.
      1. +4
        30 July 2022 11: 43
        Quote: bayard
        The future (as well as the present) belongs to the synergy of all components of the fleet - surface and submarine forces, naval aviation - both base and carrier-based, the presence of bases in all parts of the world, and primarily on the proposed theater of operations, the availability of sufficient ship repair facilities, high-quality crew training, quality and scale of our own shipbuilding industry, clear goal-setting, long-term planning and strict implementation of all goals and objectives.

        And there’s nothing to add hi
    2. +6
      29 July 2022 19: 51
      Quote: APASUS
      In the tactics of achieving superiority at sea, nothing has changed for the Americans. The main strike force of the Americans remained based on the AUG.

      Colleague, you are wrong!
      The Yankees' ABs are in the second strategic echelon. They are not going to stick them in the mouth of the Dragon, until they knock out the teeth of the dragon and pinch his tail!
      The first blow will be delivered by submarines against the Hongfuz NK, and the SSGNs will work on the coastal infrastructure of the whales. (This will be ... a flurry of anti-ship missiles and CRBD !!!)
      After that, by general-purpose forces (RKR and missile EMs), they will clean up the remnants of the fleet of the once mighty Chinese armada.
      About aircraft carriers. Yes, the PRC says that there are Dongfang-17 and 21D with GZ BB ... But the Yankees have Aegis with PR SM-3/6. The first one works on the IRBM (BB on a descending, terminal trajectory), and the second - in space, before the breeding of the BB ...,
      And then, Avik turns out to be such a "nimble" (albeit a big! car, that you just wonder, looking at how it is controlled!
      1. -3
        30 July 2022 16: 19
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        The first blow will be delivered by submarines against the Hongfuz NK, and the SSGNs will work on the coastal infrastructure of the whales. (This will be ... a flurry of anti-ship missiles and CRBD !!!)

        Yeah ... and the Chinese will be such mugs hanging their ears to look at it ... isn’t it funny yourself?
        1. +4
          30 July 2022 19: 49
          Quote: Alexey Sedykin
          Yeah ... and the Chinese will be such mugs hanging their ears to look at it ...

          Why not? They can, for example, gather an all-Chinese rally and angrily brand the machinations of the American military laughing
          But for something more, the Chinese, alas, are hardly enough, because they are still newbies in the submarine war, and their equipment there is far behind the American one. The United States taught its submariners to resist the submarine fleet of the USSR, and this is not a cat sneezed. The submariners of the USSR and the USA have been tracking each other for many decades, in conditions close to combat, having gained tremendous experience, which the Chinese simply have nowhere to take from yet.
          In general, the Chinese are not yet competitive underwater. And not a single decade will pass until they can oppose the United States
          1. -4
            31 July 2022 10: 39
            Do you think so? The Chinese, unlike the United States, have already mastered hypersound, and they are still hammering at the gate ... about the super-American underwater experience No. who remembers quite recently they didn’t share the road with a rock ... lol
            1. +4
              31 July 2022 12: 33
              Quote: Alexey Sedykin
              Do you think so?

              So I know.
              Quote: Alexey Sedykin
              The Chinese, unlike the United States, have already mastered hypersound

              First, they haven't mastered it yet. Secondly, the data on hypersound comes from the Chinese themselves, who tend to exaggerate their achievements (the 5th generation fighter on engines from the Su-27, yes). Thirdly, hypersound and submarine warfare are completely non-intersecting things. Like supersonic. for example, the absence of supersonic anti-ship missiles did not prevent the same Americans in the last century from surpassing us in underwater "battles"
              Quote: Alexey Sedykin
              about the super-american underwater experience no who remembers quite recently they didn’t share the road with a rock ... lol

              Only the Americans lost their last submarine in 1968. After 1970, we lost K-8, K-429, K-219, K-278 and K-141 in accidents. I still do not consider K-27, which, although it did not die, turned into a small Hiroshima.
              In general, if the fleet is large, and if the fleet is intensively operated, then there have been, are and will be accidents. This, in general, is normal, but if the American submarine fleet stands out here, it is precisely the low accident rate in relation to the intensity of use.
              So, of course, you can weld 1 submarine to the pier, and not have accidents on it for 100 years laughing
              1. -3
                31 July 2022 14: 54
                Things are dark with Kursk ... only after it the intensity of our submarines increased many times and not one accident ... unlike the Yankees ... and hypersound, after the exchange of nuclear weapons, the blockade of submarines will be meaningless. And in this case, the claws have better rocket engines, the one in the kings
                1. +1
                  31 July 2022 15: 20
                  Quote: Alexey Sedykin
                  Things are dark with Kursk ... only after it the intensity of our submarines increased many times and not one accident ...

                  Really? And what about the AS-12 accident (Losharik) with the death of 14 people in 2019, did they just pass by?
                  Quote: Alexey Sedykin
                  and hypersound, after the exchange of nuclear weapons, the blockade by submarines will be meaningless.

                  What blockade? SW. Alexander wrote
                  Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                  The first blow will be delivered by submarines against the Hongfuz NK, and the SSGNs will work on the coastal infrastructure of the whales. (This will be ... a flurry of anti-ship missiles and CRBD !!!)

                  That's what you wrote your comment about mugs and ears
                  Quote: Alexey Sedykin
                  And in this case, the claws have better rocket engines, the one in the kings

                  After the exchange of nuclear weapons for China, it will no longer matter, due to the absence of China. For China is extremely vulnerable to nuclear weapons.
  14. +5
    29 July 2022 13: 04
    Eh. We would rise like their "fall"
  15. +3
    30 July 2022 09: 55
    I would like to add about the rapidly developing Chinese fleet. The fact that they are introducing new ships is, of course, great for them. But the question is, in the long run, will they update them, and so on? After all, if even the United States with its dollar feeder in the face of the whole world cannot, or rather can, but with such muddles, then how long will the PRC last on such a path? I'm not hinting at anything, and I'm not calling for anything, I'm just curious.
    1. +2
      30 July 2022 19: 56
      Quote: Archemor
      But the question is, in the long run, will they update them, and so on? After all, if even the United States with its dollar feeder in the face of the whole world cannot, or rather can, but with such muddles, then how long will the PRC last on such a path?

      Please note that the Americans COULD do this, having a gigantic and well-trained fleet in the 80s, much larger than today. And while remaining the first economy in the world. And with a high standard of living of the population ...
      So, yes, the Chinese can. Unless they make mistakes, of course.
  16. 0
    30 July 2022 16: 16
    Well, the Kennedy or the wrong one cannot be determined by the place of residence. The O'Kennedy clan is very branched out. True, there are also Scottish Kennedys. And about the American fleet ... yes, let them tinker, you look to die faster. Let a couple more avinotsevs get bogged down.
  17. +1
    31 July 2022 07: 12
    a huge flock of American aircraft carriers was launched, the ensuing series of real large-scale naval battles buried Britain's dominance at sea, which had lasted more than 200 years. Britain gurgled, because it could not build ships at such a pace and of such quality.

    Taking this paragraph by itself, one might think that in these battles the US and Britain were on opposite sides.
    The author seems to dislike the British and is a bit fond of verbal expressions smile
    In my opinion, Britain has reduced its status because it was an empire with overseas colonies, suffered and severely morally exhausted by two world wars. And when, after WWII, its colonies began to strive for independence (and showed their readiness to fight for it), the British did not want to die for distant lands, and already former colonies began to float freely.
    Fruitful relations are maintained with many of them, and some even entered the British Commonwealth.
    Rational decision.
    The United States had a larger fleet by the end of the war because it initially had a more powerful economy, colossal volumes of energy resources (it produced more oil than ALL belligerents combined) and did not have hostilities on their territory.
    Many factories and shipyards were reconfigured to produce military products and .. it turned out to be a sea of ​​​​ships, armored vehicles.
    Yes, masterpieces like "Yamato" or "King George the Fifth" were not built in the USA.

    George V is not such an outstanding battleship. The Iowas were much more interesting, one of the best battleships that fought in World War II.
    And they were already being replaced by the 70-ton displacement "Montana", with more powerful armor and having 12 406mm guns instead of 9 from their predecessor .. (But then the war ended and they went under the knife)
  18. 0
    17 October 2022 01: 41
    For the Russian Aerospace Forces, all this floating husk in the seas and oceans is an easy target
    1. 0
      24 October 2022 22: 05
      Quote: Igor Korbut
      The United States had a larger navy by the end of the war because it had a stronger economy from the start.

      In addition to a powerful economy, you need to have a large length of non-freezing coastline, and we have less than a dozen non-freezing ports (not counting the Black Sea) and a depth of 5-7 m in half of them, plus restrictions on the length of the vessel and space for new shipyards or military bases, not all of a sudden find, no, we should look for another answer.