Deep snow and swamp: are wheeled armored vehicles worse than tracked ones?

119
Source: sibnarkomat.livejournal.com

Source: sibnarkomat.livejournal.com


It just so happened that wheeled armored vehicles with a rank higher than an armored personnel carrier are almost the most controversial class of combat vehicles. You can often hear such reproaches against this technique as the impossibility of installing a powerful reservation, the low resistance of the wheel mover to various damaging factors, and so on. However, perhaps the most common argument of the opponents of the "wheels" is their low cross-country ability in comparison with the tracks. In this material, we will briefly consider the capabilities of weighted wheeled vehicles to overcome swampy terrain and virgin snow, as types of tracks that are quite difficult to move.



Ground pressure


The small mass of the wheel mover and its minimum resistance to movement are two of the most important factors that, with less engine power and low fuel costs, provide equipment of this class with the level of mobility that is practically unattainable for tracked vehicles of a similar weight category. But behind all these pluses lies a fat minus in the form of significant pressure on the ground.

The fact is that the caterpillar chassis, despite some nuances, generally exerts pressure on the ground as a wide support area, limited by the width and length of the caterpillar. But the wheels in this case act as isolated small points on which the weight of the car is distributed. The difference in pressure between tracks and wheels is quite large - up to two times.

Thus, statistical data show that the pressure on the ground exerted by a multi-axle wheeled vehicle weighing 10 tons is at a level of approximately 75–90 kPa. Is it a lot or a little? For comparison: a tracked vehicle of the same mass and dimensions gives about 45–50 kPa. With increasing mass, the situation begins to deteriorate rapidly. For example, a conditional wheeled 20-ton infantry fighting vehicle will already give under 120 kPa - 20% more than a main battle tank weighing 40 tons.

Source: "Experimental assessment of the cross-country ability of tracked and wheeled vehicles" O.M. Gopkalo, A.I. Masuria

Source: O. M. Gopkalo, A. I. Mazur "Experimental evaluation of the patency of tracked and wheeled vehicles"

What do these numbers mean in practice? In a very simplified sense: the movement of the car will not be very stable on soft soils. Sand, wet black soil, silty and peaty soils are far from a complete list where wheeled vehicles will be subject to an increase in rut depth, slipping and even “landing” on the bottom.

But is it all that bad? Marshy terrain and deep snow in general will be no less weak than the soil types listed above, which is why experimental runs were carried out on them.

Selection of competitors for testing


In order to identify the maximum capabilities of a wheeled chassis in comparison with a tracked one, at the end of the 80s, Soviet scientists conducted full-scale tests of two samples - one from each type of propulsion unit. In addition, the results of BMP-2 and MT-LB were used.

In order to more or less correctly determine the patency of wheeled vehicles, it is necessary to carry out many control races on vehicles of different weight categories, but in this case a relatively average one was taken. This machine was an experimental four-axle chassis weighing 20,5 tons with fixed wheels with serial KI-80 elastic tires mounted on armored personnel carriers.

An example of a weighted wheeled vehicle is the American Stryker combat vehicle. Source: en.wikipedia.org

An example of a weighted wheeled vehicle is the American Stryker combat vehicle. Source: en.wikipedia.org

The prototype had a bearing surface length of 3 mm, a wheel width of 600 mm, a wheel diameter of 730 mm, and a ground clearance of 1 mm.

A tracked vehicle opposed the wheeled vehicle, and also actually experimental - a converted tank platform weighing 24,5 tons. The length of its bearing surface was 4 mm, the track width was 008 mm, and the ground clearance was 540 mm.

Snow and swamp rides


The first attempt to overcome the swampy area in terms of performance was quite successful. Entering the soft, sprawling and watery ground, the wheeled vehicle overcame it quite easily. But here, of course, the fact that this test track was not yet plowed up by wheels played a certain role.

In order to imitate the movement of the column, the car was driven around the same place several times. And this is where the problems started to show up. Driving over and over again, the test car deepened the track to 60–70 centimeters and began to slip more and more. Already on the fifth run, everything was over - the test equipment finally buried itself in the ground and could no longer get out on its own. The situation was aggravated by the fact that the dirt escaping from under the wheels during slipping clogged the inter-wheel space with a dense layer, which further increased the resistance to movement and interfered with traction.

Source: structure.mil.ru

Source: structure.mil.ru

It is noteworthy that the tracked 24-ton chassis, having much less pressure on the ground, could move normally with a similar track depth - 60-70 centimeters. But the phenomena of slipping were not so pronounced in her, therefore, practically no jamming was observed.

For winter tests, virgin snow of various depths was chosen. The density of snow was 0,25-0,27 grams per cubic centimeter, and the temperature varied from -3 to -10 degrees Celsius. It is worth noting here that the cross-country ability of the wheeled vehicle was no longer compared with the performance of the 24-ton tracked platform, but with the lighter BMP-2 and MT-LB, which should have shown better results due to the significantly lower mass and tracked propulsion.

At this stage of testing, the BMP-2 and MT-LB won a formal victory, which could overcome the snow cover 90-100 centimeters thick. The wheeled vehicle proved to be more modest, setting the maximum snow thickness to be overcome in the region of 70 centimeters. But not everything is so clear.

Racing through snowdrifts was carried out according to the same principle as with the swamp: with multiple passage along the same route to simulate the movement of the column. And here the wheels revealed themselves in full.

Source: topwar.ru

During the first pass through the snow, the track depth of the wheeled vehicle is approximately 15% greater than that of the same BMP-2. However, after 4-5 passages, the track from the wheels stabilizes and subsequently even decreases in comparison with tracked vehicles, and becomes to some extent more favorable for movement.

The fact is that the lugs of the caterpillars grind the base of the track with each passage, but the wheels compact it evenly, creating a relatively hard layer that no longer allows you to fall deeper into the snow.

Conclusions


What conclusions can be drawn from all of the above? Yes, wheeled combat vehicles in general are really inferior to tracked vehicles in terms of maneuverability on weak marshy ground. The track depth in this case is similar to tracked vehicles of comparable mass, therefore, an increased slip coefficient comes to the fore, which is determined by small wheel bearing areas and less traction than tracks.

Nevertheless, the shortcomings of the wheel mover will most clearly manifest themselves when driving in columns, or along an already plowed track.

As for deep snow, here the tires even partially outperform the trucks, without deepening the track and creating more favorable conditions for the passage of the column.

Sources:
Research by O. M. Gopkalo, A. I. Mazur. "Experimental evaluation of the cross-country ability of tracked and wheeled vehicles". Declassified by the expert commission of the FGAEI VO "SPbPU". Act No. 1 dated 09.06.2020/XNUMX/XNUMX
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  1. -12
    20 July 2022 05: 08
    Deep snow and swamp: are wheeled armored vehicles worse than tracked ones?
    You have to drive on the roads. feel European soils, the wheels are out of competition there, but along the swamp paths? Another owl on the globe. request
    1. +26
      20 July 2022 06: 07
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      You have to drive on the roads.

      Military equipment is not a tourist bus ... Today, in any part of the world there are roads, but there is, at a minimum, arable land of agricultural land mixed with river floodplains. And besides, today we are more afraid of NATO aggression than we are striving for a "European campaign." Therefore, we must bear in mind to a greater extent our climatic and road conditions. If our equipment passes, then Europe will pass no worse. I think we need a sound balance between tracked and wheeled vehicles. It is not entirely wise to go to extremes.
      1. +15
        20 July 2022 06: 20
        You can drive on the roads, it’s even pleasant, BUT, there, first of all, all sorts of “surprises” will occur !!! Probably not very pleasant...
        1. +2
          20 July 2022 07: 04
          Quote: rocket757
          You can drive on the roads, it’s even pleasant, BUT, there, first of all, all sorts of “surprises” will occur !!! Probably not very pleasant...

          This is precisely the difference between the BMP and, say, a tourist Mercedes for 50 seats. wink
          1. +1
            20 July 2022 08: 14
            Tourist transport in itself ... it is interesting for tourists.
          2. +5
            20 July 2022 10: 55
            its minimum resistance to movement

            I will tell you a little secret - the resistance to movement of a caterpillar mover is lower than that of a wheeled one. Yes Yes exactly. I affirm this to you as a person in the distant past who studied this topic not at the department of "tractors and cars". The advantages of wheels are price and durability. This is so, for information.
            1. +3
              20 July 2022 11: 28
              Quote: Bobik012
              I'll tell you a little secret

              I don't need to reveal these "secrets". You open it to the author. And I also have a "wheel-caterpillar" education. Heard about it... wink
              1. 0
                20 July 2022 23: 06
                I don't need to reveal these "secrets"

                I offer my sincere apologies. In principle, the author answered. Came in by accident. Well, it's nice to meet a smart person. Even if by accident smile
            2. +1
              20 July 2022 12: 57
              Quote: Bobik012
              Yes Yes exactly. I affirm this to you as a person in the distant past who studied this topic not at the department of "tractors and cars".

              Somehow doubtful. Friction in the caterpillar joints was taken into account?
              1. +2
                20 July 2022 19: 44
                Quote: DenVB
                Friction in the caterpillar joints was taken into account?

                And where does this friction originate? mainly when rounding the guide wheel and the drive wheel. But the track rollers roll on a flat track.
                And there are also caterpillars RMSh, where the friction in the hinge is minuscule. And now they are starting to use tape on light equipment, but there are no hinges on it at all.
                1. 0
                  20 July 2022 20: 00
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  And where does this friction originate? on the guide wheel and on the drive wheel.

                  But does it occur?

                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  But the track rollers roll on a flat track.

                  Asphalt is also quite smooth. If you drive along it on steel rollers, the resistance to movement will also be minimal. But for some reason they don't.

                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  And on light equipment now they are starting to use the tape, but there are no hinges on it at all.

                  Rubber band? Rolling resistance will be the same as on a rubber wheel.
              2. -2
                20 July 2022 23: 09
                Somehow doubtful

                Yes, at first glance it seems doubtful. However, scientific fact. Confirmed by multiple experiments.
                1. 0
                  20 July 2022 23: 15
                  Quote: Bobik012
                  However, scientific fact. Confirmed by multiple experiments.

                  Where can you read about these experiences?
                  1. 0
                    20 July 2022 23: 25
                    In any subject matter. It should definitely be in the program of road institutes. If you are interested. Our laboratory work was to determine the resistance to rolling. There, however, the goal of comparing the wheel / caterpillar was not set. And so, the numbers in all textbooks in the sections "chassis", well, or "chassis"
                    1. -1
                      20 July 2022 23: 29
                      Quote: Bobik012
                      In any subject matter.

                      Write the name, please.
                      1. -1
                        21 July 2022 10: 00
                        Consultations are paid. I'll drop the card number in a personal
                      2. +1
                        21 July 2022 10: 19
                        Quote: Bobik012
                        Consultations are paid. I'll drop the card number in a personal

                        The answer is clear. Thanks to.
              3. 0
                22 July 2022 15: 13
                The Germans manually rolled their kopeck pieces and ones, on tracks with closed needle bearings
            3. 0
              21 July 2022 11: 12
              another little secret why we love to ride inside the armor
              side armor caterpillar:
              BMP-1 not loved by everyone in VO: board top 16mm / 14 degrees, bottom 18mm, roof 6 mm
              BMP-2 board 9mm
              BMP-3 Aluminum: top 60-43mm, bottom 43mm
              MT-LB board 7mm
              wheel:
              BTR-80, BTR-82AM - board 7mm, roof 2,5 mm
              as for me, this is the BMP-1AM Basurmanin with a 30-mm automatic cannon,
              or the BMP-2D would still put dumps for them to dig in like the BMP-3
        2. +4
          20 July 2022 08: 14
          Quote: rocket757
          You can drive on the roads, even nice, BUT, there, first of all, all sorts of "surprises"

          And yet, in the NMD, the main operations and troop movements are along roads, with a hard surface, and here wheeled BMs have a clear advantage in speed and range
          1. 0
            20 July 2022 08: 16
            Quote: svp67
            And yet, in the NMD, the main operations and troop movements are along paved roads

            War and NWO are somewhat different things, and therefore tactics will most likely be different.
            1. -3
              20 July 2022 11: 36
              War and NWO are somewhat different things,
              - kill more painfully?
          2. +1
            20 July 2022 08: 17
            There is no such bad, unnecessary technique. There is a use for everything if done right.
          3. Alf
            +4
            20 July 2022 19: 29
            Quote: svp67
            And yet, in the NMD, the main operations and troop movements are along roads, with a hard surface, and here wheeled BMs have a clear advantage in speed and range

            If the column is mixed, then the slowest car dictates the speed and range. And all the chariots will be equal to the T-72 ...
            1. 0
              20 July 2022 22: 36
              Quote: Alf
              And all the chariots will be equal to the T-72 ...

              And where is the promised light wheeled tank based on the "Boomerang" ???)))
              1. Alf
                +2
                21 July 2022 18: 30
                Quote: svp67
                Quote: Alf
                And all the chariots will be equal to the T-72 ...

                And where is the promised light wheeled tank based on the "Boomerang" ???)))

                In the same place as Boomerang himself ... request
                1. 0
                  29 July 2022 08: 54
                  He flew away, but promised to return ...
        3. +2
          20 July 2022 09: 15
          For some reason, nothing is said about the skill of drivers.
          And this plays an important role.
          An experienced driver will drive on wheeled vehicles where an inexperienced driver will sit down with caterpillars.
          Therefore, in the army you need to teach drivers to drive. Yes , all this costs money , depreciation of equipment must also be taken into account .
          But as the saying goes, who does not want to feed his own army will feed someone else's.
          1. +1
            20 July 2022 09: 28
            So DO EVERYTHING CORRECTLY, this is also about the fact that drivers, mechanical drivers need to be prepared with high quality ...
            Common truths.
      2. 0
        20 July 2022 07: 43
        I think such logic does not work - "If our equipment passes, then Europe will pass no worse." The soils are completely different - we have 20-40 cm chernozem and under it are hard loams and all sorts of stony ones. Therefore, the caterpillar, having stirred the dirt a little, stands on a hard base and rides. But Europe ... In Ukraine, all this manifested itself clearly - where the chernozems are under 1m, and under them are weak sandy soils. As a result, when trying to move off the road, the tanks successfully sank by digging up the turret. After all, there are hundreds of such photos. So, of course, everything looked successful in our exercises, but in there ...
        1. 0
          20 July 2022 08: 00
          Quote: arkadiyssk
          But Europe ... In Ukraine, all this manifested itself clearly - where the chernozems are under 1m, and under them are weak sandy soils. As a result, when trying to move off the road, the tanks successfully sank by digging up the turret.

          Nevertheless, the T-34 and IS-2 quite successfully reached Berlin through Vienna and Warsaw. This means that the T-90/14 with the Terminator and BMP2/3 will also reach if necessary.
      3. 0
        20 July 2022 10: 30
        Quote: Hagen
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        You have to drive on the roads.

        Military equipment is not a tourist bus ... Today, in any part of the world there are roads, but there is, at a minimum, arable land of agricultural land mixed with river floodplains. And besides, today we are more afraid of NATO aggression than we are striving for a "European campaign." Therefore, we must bear in mind to a greater extent our climatic and road conditions. If our equipment passes, then Europe will pass no worse. I think we need a sound balance between tracked and wheeled vehicles. It is not entirely wise to go to extremes.


        Modern military equipment is very expensive equipment.
        Modern combat is a very short period of time, in which there are no longer wall-to-wall clashes, or regimental attacks from the war of 1812 or even 1943.
        Modern belligerents cannot afford one-time losses of 30-50 units, as this was "normal" during the Second World War.
        The tactics of modern combat - quickly moved into position, fired back and quickly left the potential cover.
        Accordingly, now all equipment, both tracked and wheeled, uses roads for this tactic.
        Theater of operations in Ukraine is steppes.
        Steppes - this is 100% visibility of vehicles from any type of reconnaissance.
        Accordingly, going out to maneuvers in the fields - we not only stand in the palm of our hand, but also reduce the speed of maneuver, movement - and become much easier targets.

        And there is no enemy in the field.
        He's on the road.
        And what should our tracked vehicles do in the field if there is no enemy there, but there is a 99% chance of being covered by artillery?

        A lot has changed since the 80s.
        There are no and will not be tank breakthroughs.
        Accordingly, the role of cross-country ability in heavy tracked vehicles, which was the main one 80 years ago and even 40 years ago, is already losing ground as unnecessary.
        1. +1
          20 July 2022 13: 38
          Quote: SovAr238A
          There are no and will not be tank breakthroughs.


          Is not a fact. If the protection of tanks becomes relevant again, then there will be no breakthroughs. Let's say tanks will get normal all-aspect KAZs. And now, according to veterans of the Donbass, it's just a large-caliber sniper rifle - he left, fired, hid. The armor seems to have depreciated, and therefore they do not advance much. But not the fact that it is forever.
        2. 0
          21 July 2022 11: 25
          Somehow I look at the SVO on "live" and your conclusions do not find confirmation even today. There will be no tank breakthroughs, but what is the basis of the BTG? And the use of UAVs and artillery, on the contrary, makes you move off the roads. , wheeled vehicles stood in columns along the roads, caterpillars moved in the right direction without problems. But the redeployment on asphalt roads is the opposite, and everything is clear here.
      4. -1
        22 July 2022 21: 19
        If our equipment passes, then Europe will pass no worse. I think we need a sound balance between tracked and wheeled vehicles.

        I propose to immediately master the walking armored vehicles and not bathe
    2. +2
      20 July 2022 06: 55


      And they also say that everything is fine with roads in Europe. You still need to look for such a pigsty.
      1. -1
        22 July 2022 21: 22
        grimpen swamp☝️
        Haven't you heard?
    3. 0
      20 July 2022 09: 02
      You tell the Americans this, otherwise they don’t know stupid and put the Abrams in the Polish mud.
    4. +4
      20 July 2022 12: 12
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      You have to drive on the roads. European soils, there the wheels are out of competition,

      Poland. tank column in natural habitat. smile

      1. +5
        20 July 2022 13: 50
        From personal experience. We had in part both armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles. Raised on some sort of alarm with the nomination to the collection point. On the way to their destination, half of the armored personnel carriers stupidly got stuck in the mud on the field and they had to be pulled out with bekhs. What is more passable is determined in practice.
    5. -1
      29 August 2022 23: 18
      in a modern conflict, it just doesn’t matter on caterpillars or on wheels you’ll be katats. No, and it doesn’t matter whether you are on the road or in the forest of hiding places.
      All the same, a UAV with gyro-stabilized narrow directions, a thermal imager with a high resolution will find you and there will be a defeat from above.

      It is necessary to work to strengthen the protection of the upper hemisphere and KAZ.
    6. +1
      8 September 2022 13: 28
      When conducting hostilities, driving on the roads ... does not work.
      All the time ... you have to, so to speak, maneuver where there are no roads
      Such is the military business ... inconvenient for engineers
      And especially for businessmen - it is impossible to make a profit on a caterpillar mover
  2. +10
    20 July 2022 05: 09
    and in my opinion, that on slightly swampy soil, that on deep snow, the patency is better for tracked vehicles.
    1. +7
      20 July 2022 06: 40
      I also think it's a strange question...
      wheeled armored vehicles worse than tracked ones?

      The whole country knows - "the cooler the jeep, the farther to run for the tractor" wassat
    2. 0
      24 July 2022 02: 13
      No not like this. Caterpillar vehicles crush the snow and sit on their belly. Wheeled calmly goes along the track
      1. 0
        8 September 2022 13: 36
        Michael Are you joking?
        What is the wheeled vehicle? Nothing loaded on the snow, poured on the asphalt?
        For some reason, in reality, it turns out that the equipment drives fully loaded (otherwise, why should it go? to the heifers?) And now the loaded equipment on a real snow cover just stops BEFORE it starts to dig in - in front of each wheel there is a roller of snow with an entry angle, inaccessible to the wheel. If the driver "persists", then the wheel is buried
        Caterpillar vehicles are free from this problem - the front overhang of the caterpillar compacts this roller and the movement continues.
        About "burrowing". The specific pressure of the tank on the coating (soil, snow) is LESS than that of the GAZ-66, so the tank, not to mention the BMP, will never dig in where the BTP or the car "sat down". The ability to pack snow under the bottom of a tank is one of the basic skills for training tank drivers and armored tracked vehicles in general.
        As for "along the rut" :) there is nothing worse for wheeled vehicles falling into a rut.
        This is not possible without my help. I am telling you as the commander of the MSV on the BMP-2 :)
  3. +16
    20 July 2022 05: 11
    Paradoxically - the obvious conclusion!
    It is worth adding that a classic car on tracks will be stable and lower, wheeled. The last truth is captivating performance.
    So the main machines of the battlefield are definitely a "harp", auxiliary ones (with the exception of specialized ones: BERM, IRM, etc.) are a wheel.
    All the good days!
  4. +1
    20 July 2022 05: 28
    I want to express my gratitude to the author for the fact that he never once called wheeled armored vehicles with the fashionable phrase "wheeled tank". Since there is a phrase, but themselves "wheeled tanks" does not exist in nature. And - yes, the study is interesting.
    1. +14
      20 July 2022 06: 24
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      I want to thank the author

      For some reason, the author did not say a word that it is possible to increase the cross-country ability of wheeled vehicles by lowering tire pressure (lowering the wheels), drivers used to be taught this in any training. When he himself served and was the senior of the column, he overcame impassability on half-launched ones, the cross-country ability increased greatly.
      1. -1
        20 July 2022 14: 59
        It is true that the author did not mention this. But my gratitude goes elsewhere. hi
      2. Alf
        0
        20 July 2022 19: 33
        Quote: Anatol Klim
        permeability increased greatly.

        How much did the speed drop?
      3. 0
        8 September 2022 13: 39
        Can.
        And if you were taught, then they probably demanded to memorize the tablet
        In which it is indicated that with a decrease in pressure, the carrying capacity and speed of movement are simultaneously reduced, and the "senior column" agreed on a change in route - so that there were no rises on the route of more than 3%.
        Pressure reduction is a measure that allows you to overcome a small area. It won't take long to move...
    2. 0
      21 July 2022 01: 48
      Brazil had one in the 80s! :-)
      Quite a Tank tower with a good caliber, I don’t remember the name, Kaskavel, sort of ...
      1. 0
        21 July 2022 03: 48
        A tank is a tracked fighting vehicle. On a wheeled, automobile move, a combat vehicle is called an armored car. Which, by the way, was born before the tank.
  5. +5
    20 July 2022 05: 46
    That's right, the snow is compacted under the weight of the wheels, and the surface becomes hard as ice, while the caterpillar bites into it all and breaks it.
    Caterpillars through the swamps, wheels through the snow.
    That's it.
    Each has its own advantages.
    And again, everything is conditional. Depends on air temperature and soil freezing. If the frosts were strong, and the ground under the snow froze thoroughly, then the caterpillar does not lose much. And if the ground under the snow is soft, viscous, then wheels and caterpillars can get bogged down
    1. 0
      8 September 2022 13: 43
      "snow is compacted under the weight of the wheels" - it is compacted under the AXIS of the wheel, but BEFORE the wheel a roller appears with an entry angle sharper than the outer angle of the tangent to the circumference of the tire, therefore the wheel cannot drive onto it - it rests. After that, if the driver "persists" - the instillation begins.
      Therefore, the movement of wheeled vehicles on loose bases is so difficult and leads to a SHARP increase in fuel consumption, as rolling resistance increases greatly ...
      It's all written in the textbooks of the 1950s, in the age of nanotechnology ... probably forgotten
  6. +3
    20 July 2022 05: 50
    it is quite obvious that it is necessary to have cars of all classes with both types of propulsion. including wheeled tanks. on some TVD swamps, on others - a dense network of roads
  7. -2
    20 July 2022 06: 49
    The cross-country ability of equipment depends very much on subjective factors, on the skill of the driver, on the condition of the tread, the presence of winter hooks on the tracks, etc. ... To look for a scientific pattern in such processes is a pure cut of money. For example, in a desert area, wheels have an advantage both in cross-country ability and in resource, in the taiga with windbreaks, on the contrary, everything has its place, there is no and never will be a universal answer. It is not worth funding these studies, it is better to finance the developers of this technique, they know this issue better.
    1. +1
      20 July 2022 07: 10
      Well, yes, yes, Kruzaks will confirm)))
      1. -3
        20 July 2022 07: 43
        Since when did Kruzak become armored vehicles, I'm talking about armored personnel carriers, for example, in comparison with infantry fighting vehicles in desert conditions
        1. 0
          26 July 2022 09: 58
          https://youtu.be/mhHWqTKYfpw
  8. +3
    20 July 2022 06: 50
    They are neither better nor worse, they are just different wheeled and created a little for another. They have different functions and different tasks. However, with a good driver who knows how to use all the "bells and whistles" of the same armored personnel carrier -80 and above, wheeled vehicles are quite competitive with tracked vehicles. But when discussing the performance characteristics of equipment, they somehow forget about drivers, whom no one specially prepares for army special equipment.
    1. +3
      20 July 2022 07: 46
      they forget about drivers, whom no one specially prepares for army special equipment

      They prepare, for example, in a training brigade, in Ostrogozhsk, military unit 20115. He himself trained there, though it was a long time ago and there was a training regiment. They train there on MTLB and on multi-axle wheeled vehicles, such as the MAZ-543. In my time it was the only such training and it was cool to see sailors, pilots, marines, paratroopers and of course black chauffeurs on the parade ground in the morning.
      1. 0
        20 July 2022 09: 38
        We are talking about the BTR first of all. I watched MAZs close in Afghanistan and I can’t say anything about their drivers. But any drivers are put on armored personnel carriers, mainly after a regular driving school. Drivers are gathering at the unit (it all depends on the organization, the availability of specialists and their desire) 500 km march and destroy the equipment forward. Remember the video where, during the landing, the armored personnel carrier of the Marine Corps overcame the cliff at a right angle? Here I am about it
        1. -2
          20 July 2022 11: 11
          Come on! They don't cook! Apparently, he never rode around the tankodrome in a driver's training. And behind the instructor sits with a rammer. For quick error fixing
          1. 0
            20 July 2022 11: 30
            Do not confuse mechanics - tank drivers, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carrier drivers - these are different people ...
            1. -2
              20 July 2022 23: 17
              Both infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers traveled along the same tankodrome. The curriculum was no different. And also a wonderful joke - "walking like a machine" for especially inept ...
  9. Eug
    +2
    20 July 2022 06: 54
    And the regulation of pressure in the wheels, you must understand, was not included in the program? Without this "competition" is difficult to consider complete and objective.
    1. -4
      20 July 2022 07: 08
      Waste of time
  10. +3
    20 July 2022 07: 07
    Wheeled heavy equipment is a very dubious enterprise. How many times have I been stuck in the fields and forests, I work as a cellular communications installer. So many nerves. And having experience of getting stuck on relatively light vehicles, what will 30-40 ton monsters do? This is a complete shiza, who comes up with wheeled self-propelled guns and tanks that, having left the highway into the field, can stay there.
    1. 0
      20 July 2022 08: 30
      Buy Sherp (analogue) in the office is the most suitable for installation..
    2. +1
      20 July 2022 10: 35
      Quote: Usher
      Wheeled heavy equipment is a very dubious enterprise. How many times have I been stuck in the fields and forests, I work as a cellular communications installer. So many nerves. And having experience of getting stuck on relatively light vehicles, what will 30-40 ton monsters do? This is a complete shiza, who comes up with wheeled self-propelled guns and tanks that, having left the highway into the field, can stay there.


      I work in providing gas pipelines.
      In Khanty-Mansiysk Autonomous Okrug/YaNAO, around the clock, our cars run along the pipelines.
      And this is real off-road.
      Equipment is wheeled only.
      Caterpillar is present of course, but mostly idle.
      For its resource and cost of operation will make Gazprom bankrupt within a couple of years.
      And 30-40 ton monsters walk great and even much better than the Urals and Shishigs, and completely better than the Hilaks with L200 and UAZs.
      1. +2
        20 July 2022 13: 32
        And why do all sorts of Gazproms buy, say, a DT-30 "knight". If there are enough wheels everywhere.
        1. +1
          20 July 2022 14: 32
          Quote: squid
          And why do all sorts of Gazproms buy, say, a DT-30 "knight". If there are enough wheels everywhere.

          How long do they run and how much do they cost?
          You know?
          I saw these Knights live in the area of ​​Pungi and Sorum.
          Their units. And wheeled vehicles - thousands.
          Inspires, of course.
          But their use is so isolated that it makes no sense to take them into account.
          As an option for use in the same Gazprom - rolling winter roads in swamps.
          And it is the wheeled vehicles that really work.
      2. 0
        20 July 2022 15: 33
        And why have pneumatic wheeled cranes disappeared from Russian production?
        Well, they exploit imported ones or the remains of those domestic ones.
        They took care of:
        Plant of the January Uprising in Odessa (long gone);
        Samara "Falcon" (?);
        Yurginsky Machine-Building Plant (Kemerovo region).
        In the latter case, the equipment is not bad, but the plant seems to have died.
      3. +1
        20 July 2022 20: 07
        Quote: SovAr238A
        And 30-40 ton monsters walk great

        What kind of 40-ton monsters do you have?
        1. -1
          21 July 2022 08: 32
          Quote: DenVB
          Quote: SovAr238A
          And 30-40 ton monsters walk great

          What kind of 40-ton monsters do you have?

          We don't have those, thank God.
          But I saw a really huge 4-axle Iveco or Renault, heavily loaded. And how he walked along those autumn roads that we did.
          1. +1
            21 July 2022 09: 35
            Quote: SovAr238A
            But I saw a really huge 4-axle Iveco or Renault, heavily loaded. And how he walked along those autumn roads that we did.

            Firstly, it is not very clear how heavily loaded. Secondly, he still walked along the roads. And not on "real off-road".
            1. 0
              21 July 2022 12: 10
              Quote: DenVB
              Quote: SovAr238A
              But I saw a really huge 4-axle Iveco or Renault, heavily loaded. And how he walked along those autumn roads that we did.

              Firstly, it is not very clear how heavily loaded. Secondly, he still walked along the roads. And not on "real off-road".

              Have you ever seen pipelines?
              They are called roads simply by definition.
              There have never been any road works.
              Just soil.
              Clay, earth.
              1. +1
                21 July 2022 12: 33
                Quote: SovAr238A
                Have you ever seen pipelines?

                Seen, not seen - it's just words. Let's see some pictures or videos of your huge, heavily laden monsters walking along your pipelines. Then we will evaluate what kind of off-road there is.
                1. 0
                  21 July 2022 18: 18
                  Well, how were these pipelines built - Soviet trucks built them, plus equipment purchased from abroad.
                  Magirus, etc.
      4. -2
        21 July 2022 02: 30
        Caterpillar excavators were engaged in:
        Kovrov plant is the head enterprise for them. They did 4 groups, they were popular. Then they began to do it in cooperation with TVEKS and the plant was bent. Demand for EO-4225 and ET models disappeared;
        Kostroma "Exco". Mechanical draglines, grabs, pile drivers based on EO-5111. The technology is dying. The plant disappeared in the 2000s;
        Voronezh "Tyazheks". Wheeled and tracked. 5 and 6 groups for mining. The plant has disappeared;
        Kyiv "Atek", aka "Red Excavator". Caterpillars of various models, there has been no factory since the late 2000s;
        Ivanovsky "Kraneksk" - piece production of tracked 5 and 6 groups.

        In fact, only one plant remained in Tver. But even there the demand for tracked vehicles is very small.
        They make an army EA-17 on an automobile chassis and made the Kalininets back for import substitution.

        What comes out, caterpillar excavators so popular at construction sites and quarries 20 years ago already an endangered type of equipment?
        1. Egg
          0
          23 September 2022 09: 30
          Quote: Osipov9391
          caterpillar excavators so popular at construction sites and quarries 20 years ago already an endangered type of equipment?

          No, just right now all the construction sites were flooded with imported ones, This EO-4224 was a rare muck, oil was always whistling from all the cracks, and the hydraulic motors on the chassis are a separate song, it barely moved itself. Therefore, they tried to replace them with imported ones, first with KATO, then others, even now Chinese compared to EO, like a Mercedes against a Cossack.
          Yes, and the chariot will never replace the caterpillar one, the chariot only around the city, but dig light soils, the problem with the caterpillar is transportation from object to object
          1. -2
            23 September 2022 12: 57
            And how were the "Kyivians" (EO-4323V-3 and tracked EO-4123V-3 later ATEK-881 and ATEK-761)?
            Now there are still many places where you can find a wheeled "Kiev" which is 25-30 years old or even more. They look good at construction sites even today, working next to imported excavators.

            Now the former TVEKS (now OMG it is not far from me) on "import substitution" has resumed the production of EK-14, sort of.
            But the latter had almost no demand. And even in comparison with the 25-year-old "Kievlyanin" it serves little, after 7-10 years they were usually written off.
            1. Egg
              0
              23 September 2022 16: 06
              I don’t know, now in the north there are only imported excavators in construction, many Chinese, but quite often old Japanese KATO are still working and there are American ones.
              1. -2
                23 September 2022 18: 38
                That is, "Kovrovtsy" (EO-4224) are so-so cars?
                In our Tver region, they worked in industrial and civil construction.
                But they were written off back in the 2000s and changed to TVEKS of the ET-16 type and the like.
                "Kyivians", as I wrote, are still working.
                I don't know anything about Ivanovo Kraneks.
                Imported equipment, that is, but not enough.
                Basically, modern Kalinintsy work, because the plant is under their noses.
      5. Egg
        0
        23 September 2022 09: 15
        Quote: SovAr238A
        In Khanty-Mansiysk Autonomous Okrug/YaNAO, around the clock, our cars run along the pipelines.
        And this is real off-road.
        Equipment is wheeled only.

        Yes, of course, yeah, they drive in the Urals and only on the roads, and in those rare places where the pipe lies dry. Detours of the routes on the DT30P are carried out, but for 10 years by helicopters they have mainly been flying around by Gazprom, a hundred Lukoil, and Rosneft. And 30-40 ton monsters on wheels certainly will not go anywhere except on the roads.
        There is nothing better than caterpillars in the tundra, even the trackers are not competitors.
        And in the middle lane, on the black soil ... I personally observed, as a child, on potatoes, Zil 130 on cylinders (the wheels were like barrels with huge lugs, a meter wide) got up in the field, they went to pull out 2 more of the same , wound black soil half a ton per wheel and stood nearby. As a result, everyone was pulled out by DT 75, the black soil was flying across the field. laughing
  11. +7
    20 July 2022 07: 09
    Conclusion one. Read manual. Where the manufacturer writes that driving on swampy terrain is only allowed with a decrease in tire pressure to 0,5 atmospheres and in a low gear. And in our country they read manuals only when they go to the toilet, tear out a leaf. The manufacturer on the equipment writes the entire procedure for its use. And shkolota can't read, she wasn't taught that. How they did not teach the procedure for applying the technique to the "Big Shoulder Straps". Therefore, it will be in the army, we carry a round one, we roll a square one.
  12. NSV
    +1
    20 July 2022 07: 51
    The eternal theme !!! Is it really incomprehensible that a particular theater of operations needs its own equipment !!! No one in Africa will fight in uniform for the Arctic zone !!! So it is here !!!
  13. +1
    20 July 2022 07: 56
    Everything has pros and cons. Wheeled vehicles will go further and faster. And it will use less fuel. But it will not be able to maneuver on the ground in muddy conditions. Different tasks, different solutions.
  14. -1
    20 July 2022 08: 50
    Wheeled or tracked... tracked or wheeled... what Oh, it’s not in vain that the topic of “hovercraft” technology was popular at one time! fellow (At least in literature ... although not only there!)


    Objects 760/761...
    And let's do it this way (!) ... neither yours nor ours! No.
    Wheel-caterpillar!

    or
    Half-track!
  15. +1
    20 July 2022 09: 24
    Why are there no paved roads? after how many km it will be possible to crush the asphalt with wheeled vehicles and after how many caterpillar
  16. 0
    20 July 2022 10: 30
    Americans love to make comfortable armored vehicles. As a result, it is unmeasuredly heavy and bulky. Bay - I don't want to.
  17. +1
    20 July 2022 10: 51
    It always seemed to me that tracked vehicles have greater off-road patency compared to wheeled ones.
  18. +1
    20 July 2022 12: 35
    Wheeled vehicles will always lose in tracked armor. And now we need highly protected armored vehicles. The fighting in Ukraine showed this.
  19. +2
    20 July 2022 13: 09
    What conclusions can be drawn from all of the above?
    The most important conclusion, which is primordial, is that everything cannot be driven into an irreconcilable opposition. So you can ask what is better, a plane or a helicopter, who the child needs more, dad or mom ...

    Well, it was already, wheeled-tracked tanks of the BT type, where they tried to combine the cross-country ability of the caterpillar and the greater speed and economy of the wheel. In our country, BMD are also beginning to be opposed to a heavy machine, completely confusing all the banks in their purpose and specifics.

    The equipment needed is different, and not only in opposition to the caterpillar-wheel, but also army or police (anti-terrorist, counter-guerrilla). One technique will be better for military columns, their escort, the other for fighting in the city, the third for marches and capturing bridgeheads. You don’t need these either-or, but foolishly any equipment can be ruined, and it will not be her fault, people need to understand in the war where a maneuverable pickup truck with a machine gun is needed, and where a heavy armored car. To everything, dividing the anti-terrorist operation against the militants and the big war with full-fledged armies, given the geography of the region (rivers and swamps, dry shallow terrain).
  20. +5
    20 July 2022 13: 29
    From the author's article it turns out that wheeled vehicles are, well, quite a bit inferior in terms of specific pressure. In practice:

    BMP-2
    Combat weight, t 14,7
    Specific ground pressure, kg/cm² 0,64—0,66

    BTR-80
    Weight, t - 13.6
    Specific ground pressure, kg / sq. cm - 1.77 - 3.09

    The actual cross-country ability of tracked vehicles is approximately the same.

    The cited Soviet study features a prototype with a wheel 73cm wide(!). For comparison - even a kraz-"lappetzhnik" with its wide wheels has a tire "only" 53 cm, we generally keep silent about the Urals and armored personnel carriers - there are almost half as much. Apparently arched tires were used.
    In fact, wheeled vehicles can only be used on roads (albeit bad, in the case of special vehicles). Caterpillar is off-road. For example, in the fields and steppes of Ukraine. What is the possibility of maneuver without being tied to the road network - I hope there is no need to explain.
    1. 0
      20 July 2022 14: 37
      The actual cross-country ability of tracked vehicles is approximately the same.

      During the Second World War, our GAZ-AA lorry and three-ton ZiS-5 showed themselves surprisingly well in terms of cross-country ability. Due to the uneven weight distribution along the axles, i.e., the lightweight front wheels did not dig into the ground and allowed to steer, while the rear narrow wheels fell through to solid ground and, clinging to a solid base, moved the car. This is how German experts described our trucks.
      When at GAZ in the 90s, instead of GAZ-53, they began to produce new GAZ-3309 with a heavy diesel engine, when harvesting, they faced the problem of patency on wet arable land. Due to the increased load on the front axle, the front wheels dug into the ground and the cars skidded, while the GAZ-51 felt great in such conditions. And what kind of cross-country ability did the loaded ZIL-130 demonstrate on arched tires, thanks to the increased load on the rear axle ...
      1. 0
        20 July 2022 17: 56
        Well, with a small mass, so as not to demonstrate patency. you try to put armored vehicles on wheels and surprise with cross-country ability - even if it works out, caterpillar, other things being equal, will surprise an order of magnitude more
    2. +1
      20 July 2022 20: 06
      But what about in Transbaikalia, in Dauria and Priargunsk, Kyakhta? In Western Europe, the world did not converge like a wedge. Take Syria, are there many swamps there? Africa, especially North
    3. +1
      22 July 2022 10: 59
      The problem is different. It is impossible to hang much more on 4 axles than is already hanging on the BTR-80. In the USSR, they didn’t do this, the marines generally preferred the BTR-80 (although, perhaps, they weren’t really asked). Therefore, if someone in the Moscow Region wants to significantly increase the armor compared to the BMP-3, this is no longer for wheels. And there is nothing to look at "foreign experience". They do not always find dirt and snow even at their landfills. We have nothing to learn from them. Do you want a wheeled infantry fighting vehicle? Logically, for most motorized rifles. But at the same time, you will have to come to terms with the fact that it will have our lightweight “thirty” armament, and the armor will not be better than that of the “three”, with a mass like that of the same three. Otherwise, these vehicles will not follow the tanks.
  21. 0
    20 July 2022 14: 11
    About snow - an interesting observation. The rolled track decides)
  22. +1
    20 July 2022 15: 18
    What conclusions can be drawn from all of the above?

    But what! Leave only BRDMs and MRAPs (for security units / subdivisions that control roads) as wheeled from BMs. The rest are scrapped and replaced exclusively with tracked BMs.
  23. Owl
    0
    20 July 2022 17: 30
    The knowledge of the commander and the training of the driver, it is equally possible to "put on the belly" of both the T-80 tank and the BTR-80, I saw both. Quickly drive up and capture - wheeled combat vehicles (for example, the Pristina airfield), destroy and squeeze out - caterpillars (Caucasus and Ukraine in the autumn-spring-winter period)
  24. 0
    20 July 2022 18: 05
    yes, there are ways to increase the patency of wheeled vehicles on soft soils; 3 wheels of (smaller) diameter look most logical with a planetary drive from the central axis, with the possibility of "turning" in the direction of travel with some increased rolling resistance (walking effect)
    1. Alf
      0
      20 July 2022 19: 56
      Quote: prodi
      yes, there are ways to increase the patency of wheeled vehicles on soft soils; 3 wheels of (smaller) diameter look most logical with a planetary drive from the central axis, with the possibility of "turning" in the direction of travel with some increased rolling resistance (walking effect)

      Counter questions - how much will such a car cost, how much fuel will it burn?
      1. 0
        21 July 2022 06: 15
        hard to say, most likely somewhere between a traditional wheel and a caterpillar; the same four drive axles with such "wheels" would give 16 points of support instead of 8, and it is also unlikely that they will be able to steer, it will have to be like on a caterpillar drive
        1. Alf
          0
          21 July 2022 18: 29
          Quote: prodi
          hard to say, most likely somewhere between a traditional wheel and a caterpillar; the same four drive axles with such "wheels" would give 16 points of support instead of 8, and it is also unlikely that they will be able to steer, it will have to be like on a caterpillar drive

          And what's the point of building a garden then?
          1. 0
            22 July 2022 06: 57
            Well, is it possible to say that technically, the BTR-80 is simpler than the MTLB? .. Only the tracks have a depressingly low resource, but their fuel consumption (at the crossroads) is approximately the same; another thing is that on the highway for a wheeled one it will be halved, and for a caterpillar one only by 10-20%
            1. 0
              22 July 2022 10: 53
              BTR-80 on units from trucks, roughly speaking. BTR 60-70 - generally a "doubled" shishiga.
              1. 0
                22 July 2022 14: 48
                standard, usually only engines remain, everything else has to be tricky. In terms of the number of units, the wheeled 4-axle (with all the leading ones) bypasses the tracked
                1. 0
                  23 July 2022 09: 31
                  Trucks are produced and sold on three leading axles (out of 3-4). I think the gearbox can be borrowed. Handouts and stuff - that's another story. It is clear that, compared to 8x8, a tracked vehicle has, roughly speaking, "one axis".
  25. 0
    21 July 2022 19: 16
    Well, from this article, only one conclusion can be drawn ... the army needs to change to swamp vehicles)))
  26. 0
    21 July 2022 20: 29
    Did the author discover America? This has been known for so long ...
  27. 0
    21 July 2022 21: 31
    I’ll say a banality. what I do not think that there is a universal technique of high efficiency. Somewhere wheels give good chances, somewhere caterpillar vehicles. For each task, its own set and set of tools. Made the right choice and did it.
  28. 0
    22 July 2022 10: 51
    Hello Boomerang. Squeeze your Wishlist and weight up to 19 tons. Then something like tanks will go where the tanks passed.
  29. 0
    25 July 2022 14: 00
    Will everything be delayed until deep snow?
  30. 0
    8 September 2022 13: 26
    Article on the topic "The basics of the types of propulsion of land-based non-rail transport"
    It is clear that the caterpillar mover is superior to the wheeled mover in everything except the complexity and endurance of the coupling element :) it became clear back in the 1930s when "Gartfield steel" appeared - the material for cheap caterpillar chains
    What is the argument about?
    If the transport will move ONLY on paved roads, then it can be wheeled. If transport should be massive, i.e. hundreds of thousands of pieces, then it HAS to be made wheeled. If the transport must develop high (75+ km.h.), then it is advisable to make it wheeled.
    All of this is from 1950s textbooks....
    And physics hasn't changed since then.
    A PLUS
    Wheeled vehicles experience understandable difficulties when driving on rocky soils, which are insurmountable within the framework of a wheeled mover. Therefore, units on armored personnel carriers are simply not sent by the command to the appropriate areas.
  31. 0
    15 October 2022 04: 55
    Quote: yakisam
    It is clear that the caterpillar mover is superior to the wheeled mover in everything except the complexity and endurance of the coupling element :) it became clear back in the 1930s when "Gartfield steel" appeared - the material for cheap caterpillar chains

    Including fingers for tracks, we made mass-produced ones at our factory - a consumable item
    in a general technical sense.
    Once in the Soviet army, an incident happened. Our hardware room weighing 22 tons
    with a tractor Ural-375 rear wheels in a swamp. How many wheeled vehicles did it take
    to get her out?
    First, they put two with winches. The winches are spinning, the tractor engine howls, but pulling
    cars crawl to the swamp. That's when the Deputy Commander ordered each pulling machine
    two more in a specially knurled track to fix with cables. Pulled out by six.
    An hour for two.
    "Think for yourself, decide for yourself."
    The tank would have pulled it off during the time of attaching the cables to the hooks of the tractor, having revved it then at once.