Autonomous combat modules of the Tor air defense system in battle - an effective solution or a palliative

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ABM "Tor-M2KM" may well be used from ships and vessels, while ensuring the detection and destruction, including low-flying anti-ship missiles. However, in its current form, ABM is precisely a land complex, with a number of serious restrictions on marine use. And this factor should be taken into account. It is necessary to accelerate the development of a full-fledged naval self-defense air defense system.



The death of the missile cruiser "Moskva", the extreme lack of full-fledged surface ships of the Navy and the acute "missile threat" in the northwestern part of the Black Sea forced the fleet to go for an emergency installation on ships of even land-based air defense systems - "what was at hand".

On June 18, two patrol ships of project 22160 of the Russian Navy were filmed south of Zmeiny Island in the exclusive economic zone of Romania. One of the ships was equipped with a Ka-29 helicopter (probably Ka-31 - ed. note), and the other was equipped with the Tor-M2KM air defense system mounted on the stern. In one of the videos of the Ministry of Defense from the UAV (possibly "Forpost"), there was the use of missiles with the defeat of the UAV from the stern of a ship similar in silhouette to 22160, that is, obviously - ABM "Tor-M2KM". On the same day, June 18, two anti-ship missiles "Harpoon" in the area of ​​about. Serpentine was sunk by the Auxiliary rescue tug fleet "Vasily Bekh" with an autonomous combat module (ABM) of the Tor-M2KM air defense system installed on it.


ABM on ships and vessels of the Black Sea Fleet


With a high probability, the installation of the ABM was precisely the "initiative from below", since what was supposed to go "from above" still demonstrates extremely dubious results (here it is worth recalling the decommissioning of the RCA "Shuya" with the latest system Air defense in front of the NVO itself, and today's extreme delay in the Navy's acceptance of the first project 22800 RTOs at the Black Sea Fleet).

And as a result, "green" land "Tors" and "Shells" appeared on the ships and auxiliary vessels of the Black Sea Fleet. At the same time, the very first, low-quality photo of a Project 22160 patrol ship with a Tor was, most likely, not with an autonomous combat module (ABM) weighing 15 tons, but with a Tor-M2 (U) tracked combat vehicle (and weighing more than twice as much) - which raised very serious questions about the stability of a relatively small ship with such a heavy additional "top weight". Apparently, for this reason, despite the ability of the new Thors to fire on the move (and, accordingly, when rolling), the use of tracked air defense systems on ships was abandoned: 37 tons of “extra” “overweight” is too much for most potential marine carriers.

Patrol ships (PC) of project 2 are becoming the main platform for installing Tor-M22160KM ABM.


A month and a half after the death of the Moskva, the Tor-M2KM ABM nevertheless reached these unsuccessful ships (for more details - 13.09.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX "Innovative insanity" of patrol ships of project 22160 ").

For the project 22160 PC, this is technically a completely acceptable solution: the mass of the ABM is close to the mass of the Ka-27 helicopter (regularly placed on the PC), from the means of lighting the situation there is a good centimetric radar "Positive-M", the "blind sector" of which is in the stern, due to for a design error - a non-radio-transparent mast, is completely covered by the target detection system (SOC) ABM "Tor-M2KM", and the bow sector ("blind" for "Tor") is covered by a new gun mount AK-176MA with a fire control system (FCS) "Bagira" .


However, “there are nuances” (about them below - of course, only in the form necessary and acceptable for public discussion).

Moreover, with a high probability, the helicopter recorded at sea on the deck of one of the PCs is the Ka-31 - an airborne early warning helicopter (AWACS), which, of course, is extremely necessary and was required "the day before yesterday." It should be noted that to strengthen the air defense of the ships of the Black Sea Fleet, not only Torahs were used, but also the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile gun system (ZRPK).

However, due to the individual characteristics of the guidance contour weapons in this air defense missile system, extremely high requirements are placed on the accuracy of stabilization (working out pitching), a clear example of which is the decrease in the number of combat-ready missiles on the "marine" modification of the "Pantsir" ("Pantsir-M"). Given this factor, despite a significant advantage over the tracked "Thor" in terms of mass, the use of the "land shell" was recorded only from the large auxiliary vessel "Vsevolod Bobrov".


"Family" SAM "Tor", briefly


After the creation in the 80s of the "basic" air defense system of the new generation "Tor", it has already gone through three generations of deep modernization - "Tor-M1" (1991), "Tor-M2U" (2009) and "Tor- M2 "(2016), and is on the verge of the fourth (with the introduction of new light missiles, and most importantly - a new firing radar with dramatically improved performance).

The long period of development of the 9M338 SAM (taking into account all the problems of the defense industry and its financing in the 1990-2000s) led to the "Tor-M2U" - an air defense system with "new electronics", but the old 9M331 SAM (and its modernized version with an enlarged zone defeat 9M331D).

On the basis of the tracked "Tora-M2U", a wheeled export version ("Tor-M2K (E)") and a "chassisless" autonomous combat module "Tor-M2KM" were created. The completion of the development of the 9M338 SAM led to the Torah-M2 (with an increase in the ammunition load of the SAM by a factor of two, up to 16), but it excluded the possibility of using the old 331 series SAMs.

Here it is necessary to emphasize the features of reloading missiles. Initially, "Thor" had an overload of missiles from a transport-loading vehicle (TZM) with cassettes of 4 missiles (2x4 = 8 in total). This decision was, to put it mildly, ambiguous, because when a part of the ammunition load was used up, a complete replacement of the cassette was necessary for its complete replenishment, while this operation unequivocally required TZM.

With the transition to the “lightweight” 9M338 SAM, an individual placement of SAM in the TPK in a combat vehicle was implemented (and, accordingly, their individual replacement). The decision is technically absolutely correct, but at the same time, the possibility of using the old 331 missiles (located in large numbers in the ammunition load) was lost. In addition, as combat experience has shown, it is not enough to have not only 8, but also 16 missiles in the ammunition ready for battle. The overwhelming majority of Thors in Karabakh was lost precisely after the ammunition load was used up. At the same time, Torahs do not have the ability to use missiles with TZM (which is implemented in the Buk).

Below we will separately focus on ABM, but first a few words about the “chassis problem” for the Thor.

Chassis problem


Taking into account the initial intended purpose of the air defense system (air defense of the Ground Forces) with the provision of escort tanks and other tracked combat vehicles, the Thor chassis was tracked. The author does not have data on its initial cost, however, there are relatively recent figures from the public procurement website of 2016 on the purchase of the Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol JSC from the Mytishchi Machine-Building Plant JSC of the GM-5955.15-01 tracked chassis for the 9A331MU combat vehicles of the self-propelled anti-aircraft missile system 9K331MU "Tor-M2U" ("Tor-M1-2U"):

acquisition of 19 tracked chassis GM-5955.15-01… with delivery during 2017. The estimated price of one chassis is 88 rubles without VAT. Under the second contract, it is planned to purchase 730 tracked chassis GM-931-29... The estimated price of one chassis is 5955.15 rubles without VAT.

That is, the cost of one GM-5955.15-01 chassis turned out to be close to the cost of the whole new T-90A tank.

Of course, the high cost of the "regular" chassis is one of the significantly limiting factors in the serial production of the new air defense system and has become one of the starting points for the creation of the "modular Tor" - ABM "Tor-M2KM".

ABM "Tor-M2KM"


The main "technical idea" of creating the Tor-M2KM ABM was the possibility of placing it on any type of chassis, in connection with which some people had the idea of ​​installing it on marine carriers. It should be noted that the latter was initially perceived with caution by a number of air defense specialists who are familiar with the specifics of the sea in practice.

Reducing the weight of the air defense system (due to the abandonment of the chassis) objectively increased the possibilities for transporting the air defense system, including by Mi-26 helicopters on an external sling, and a significant reduction in cost ensured export deliveries. "Tor-M2KM" took an active part in the recent Karabakh conflict, where, despite heavy losses (in the absence of air defense as a system, and the overwhelming superiority of the enemy in the air), it proved to be a very effective combat weapon, confirming the reputation of "Tor" as “air defense brooms” (on the resolution of a number of problematic issues that have been revealed in an acceptable form - below).

The issues of the marine application of the Tor-M2KM ABM were discussed in detail at the penultimate Naval Salon in a public report by the representative of JSC IEMZ Kupol, Kartashov.

Work on the marine use of ABM was started in 2016 with the support of the then Commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Admiral A. Vitko, as part of the "Decision ..." in 2015 to create a specialized shipborne air defense system "Tor-MF" (for testing algorithms and software for working in the drive layer) and touched the Tor-M2 air defense system to ensure operation and firing on the move (more on this, an extremely important new requirement for air defense systems, below). The mass of the ABM, close to that of the Ka-27 helicopter, ensured the free placement of the ABM on the helipads of the ships.


In 2017, not only overflights were performed (with the development of air defense systems for low-flying targets), but also successful firing of the Tor-M2KM air defense missile system from the Admiral Grigorovich frigate (project 11356) at targets of the Saman type (converted air defense missile systems "Wasp") and for the first time in the Navy - according to the "analogue of the Harpoon" - the target missile RM-24 (IC-35).


Of particular note is the possibility of a very effective use of ABMs in the air defense system of the naval base (taking into account the possibility of optimal, taking into account the terrain, placement of ABMs on the ground and their high efficiency), but with a number of conditions and requirements, first of all - a sharp increase in ammunition ready for firing (which has not yet been fully implemented in the air defense systems of the Tor family).


During the active discussion of the report of Mr. Kartashov (at the IMDS), an active and heated discussion ensued, including with the participation of the author of the article and a representative of the competitor of JSC IEMZ Kupol - JSC KBP (ZRPK Pantsir).

The position of the author was, on the one hand, in unconditional support for this work, however, on the other hand, in harsh criticism of a number of decisions on the appearance of the ship modification "Torah" (in particular, on the issues of reducing the mass of the complex (and especially the antenna post) and providing increased long-range the boundaries of the affected area) and obvious shortcomings in the methodology for testing the ABM "Tor-M2KM" on the ship (namely: limiting the conditions with a speed of 8 knots and a moderate sea level). Taking into account the fact that the work was financed by JSC "IEMZ" Kupol "initiatively (at the same time, the command of the Black Sea Fleet was actively supported), it was advisable to raise the question of the deepest possible tests, with an assessment, among other things, of the "boundary conditions for efficiency" of the complex ("for GOST" it is not needed, but it is what is needed for the fight).

Alas, the firing, for all their unconditional usefulness, was carried out on the principle of "shooting - and all right." The most pressing issue is that when they were organized, they did not dare (they were afraid) to fully shoot at the Harpoon imitator - the RM-24 target missile, deliberately "driving" it into the water at the far border of the air defense system's affected area ("Thor" confidently observed it , the missiles worked, but for the indicated reason "the target was already in the water").

The claims of the representative of JSC "KBP" were reduced to a "free interpretation" by the speaker of a number of provisions of physics and radar (i.e., he had no objections to the essence and results of the work of "Tor" during these tests). In response, Mr. Kartashov, in a rather emotional form, made claims to the representative of JSC "KBP" on the real field results of the "Shell". In general, the report (and especially its discussion) was not very boring.

Alas, the following ship firing (for more details - article 29.05.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX No. "Anti-aircraft missile" positive ": the Navy began to shoot at real targets") ABM "Tor-M2KM" (two years ago) raise even tougher questions about their organization and methodology. As follows from the video of the Ministry of Defense, the Thor was fired almost immediately after the launch of the Shtil-1 air defense system of the Admiral Grigorovich frigate, which hit the PM24 (and at a very good range), i.e., in fact, on the wreckage .

Autonomous combat modules of the Tor air defense system in battle - an effective solution or a palliative

PM24 was successfully observed by means of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, but the expediency of firing at a deliberately “almost downed” target raises big questions. It would be logical, while accompanying the target, to wait for the results of the Shtil's firing and shoot not at the wreckage, but at the RM itself when it was missed by the Shtil. With the defeat of RM24 - do not waste expensive missiles on empty.

Alas, there was only one PM24 for this shooting. However, there was an effective solution and it immediately suggested itself - the use of a reactive target from the Adjutant complex (capable of imitating not only Harpoons, but also much more inconspicuous NSM anti-ship missiles) and firing Thor at it.

What did all these shootings and tests show? Yes, ABM "Tor-M2KM" may well be used from ships and vessels, while ensuring detection and destruction, incl. low-flying anti-ship missiles. However, in its current form, ABM is precisely a land complex, with a number of serious restrictions on marine use. And this factor must be taken into account very clearly (with a high probability, it was the failure to take into account these factors that led to the death of Vasily Bek). During the discussion of the report of Mr. Kartashov at IMDS-19, shortcomings (and serious ones) were indicated, but the speaker perceived the need to eliminate them, let's say, "without enthusiasm."

And here a very serious question arises - what about a full-fledged "sea Tor" and what should it be, taking into account the experience of hostilities?

Ship "Thor"


Sufficiently detailed information on it was given in the said report. The main thing is the “Decision ...” of the Ministry of Defense on it back in 2015, however, real work has not been started, stopping at the stage of a protected draft design.


At the same time, it is necessary to speak harshly about the obvious omissions and shortcomings of Tora-FM (in the guise protected in the draft design):

- a clearly excessive mass (this is very critical, given the placement on a number of carriers) of the antenna post (there is a lot of sense in the separate placement of firing and surveillance radars, including for separate use - the fleet, BOHR urgently needs a small-sized lightweight surveillance radar capable of effectively detect anti-ship missiles and UAVs);

- the need for a significant increase in the far border and the zone of destruction of the complex.

The latter needs special attention. This problem arose in the days of the USSR, in relation to the Kinzhal air defense system (the developer is Altair), especially for the project 1155 BOD: despite the exceptionally high efficiency in anti-ship missiles and in the near zone, the range was short, and the sector of work (60x60 ) is insufficient. In "Thor" the range was slightly raised, the sector of work in the ABM "Tor-M2KM" is 30x30. For the new firing radar "Tora" it is very significantly increased, but still insufficient.

The problem of the far border and the zone of destruction of the air defense system became extremely acute during the NWO, below are screenshots from the video of the Bayraktar UAV, which has been conducting long-term surveillance of the island. Serpentine and located outside the defeat of the Tor-M2 air defense system (firing, probably at the Tochka-U missile defense system - highlighted in red).


Here it is impossible not to say about the "swan, cancer and pike" of the air defense of our fleet - the author's article of 17.08.2020/XNUMX/XNUMX is cited "Corvettes that will go into battle". In fact, today we have three fundamentally different air defense systems for a small displacement ship:

1. "Redoubt" (all-round shelling, the largest engagement zone and channel, but the inability to defeat maneuvering targets, extremely expensive missiles and the problem of missing targets in a dense salvo).
2. "Pantsir-M" (cheap missiles, but problems with the defeat of maneuvering targets and especially the acute meteorological dependence of the complex).
3. "Tor-FM" ("machine for shooting down targets", but with significant restrictions on the sector and range of the affected area).
Objectively speaking, not a single air defense system individually provides reliable air defense ... Ideally, an integrated system is needed ...

The obvious solution is the integration of "Tor" and "Redoubt", i.e., the introduction into the "Tor" of the possibility of using not only 331 and 338 missiles, but also 96 and 100. Of course, the "main weapon" in this case will remain massive and cheap 311 and 338 SAMs (and a new light SAM), it is they who should work under the control of the radar firing at the “main sheaf” of the raid. The presence in the ammunition load of a small amount of 100 and especially 96 UR ensures the all-roundness of the complex and the possibility of hitting targets at significantly increased distances. With the surveillance radar available to the Tor-M2 air defense system (with an update rate of 1 s), the use of the 9M96 SAM for the same Bayraktar can be fully ensured even at the maximum operating distances of its surveillance station (about 50 km).

However, returning to the Torah, today the above is only “good wishes”, because the work on the Torah-FM was blocked by the customer (Ministry of Defense). Now you can name the key person who did this.
Kommersant, 24.03.2022/XNUMX/XNUMX:

As it became known to Kommersant, an episode with a bribe appeared in a high-profile criminal case about fraud in the modernization of weapons of warships of the Northern Fleet. The investigation intends to petition for the arrest of the former deputy head of the department of the Ministry of Defense for ensuring the state defense order, captain 1st rank Igor Supranovich.

It was Supranovich (who occupied a key position in the structure of the "single customer" of the Ministry of Defense - DOGOZ) who was the key "blocker" of work on the "sea Tor", "Decision ..." (2015), the development of which was deliberately blocked by him in DOGOZ. It is worth noting that all this was not a "particular", but a fragment of much larger events, as a high-ranking ex-employee of the DOGOZ Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the Ministry of Industry and Trade writes.


The consequences of this, we now fully "sip" in the Black Sea Fleet. When implementing the "Decision ..." of 2015, even in a minimal form - replacing the old Osa-M (A) air defense systems, we would not have received shame with the death of the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet - the Moskva missile cruiser.


And they would also have in service about a dozen ships capable of providing good protection against anti-ship missiles not only for themselves, but also for protected ships or landing ships. That is, today they would have the opportunity to actively use the Black Sea Fleet and conduct a landing operation ...

This is not an exaggeration, the start of work on the "Arctic" air defense system "Tor-M2DT" was given simultaneously with the "Tor-FM" (but the latter was immediately "braked") at the end of 2015, and the first division of the new air defense system "Tor-M2DT" of the Ministry of Defense received at the end of 2018.
However ... what is it with the "sea Thor" now? Supranovich under investigation, but "his case lives on"?

The author, well aware that the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation does not contain an article for “deliberate sabotage (and what happened with the air defense of the Navy was precisely conscious sabotage) and undermining the combat capability of the RF Armed Forces”, nevertheless believes that there are clearly signs of at least official negligence . Moreover, they entailed extremely serious consequences - both the death of the Moskva RKR, and extremely serious problems with the use of the Black Sea Fleet for its intended purpose. Or is it still not only about Movchan and Supranovich, but also about other persons who “remain in the shadows” and out of the attention of the relevant structures?

ABM is now "thrown into battle", but "a very simple question" - and full-fledged firing with a real reflection of a volley (namely, a volley - with its real (small) temporary range) of "analogues of Harpoons" (RM24 or others) of the Navy were carried out? Or “responsible officials” are still afraid of conducting such tests (the recent exercises of the Baltic Fleet and the latest firing of corvettes make you think hard, but about this - in one of the next articles, “comprehensive” and taking into account the “retrospective”, on fleet air defense) ? Is the interim "Guideline ..." on the combat use of ABM developed and adopted? I'm sure no!

Just in case, let me remind you that this is what, according to their official functions and conscience, were obliged to do by those who developed false and directly illegal (not corresponding to GOST for the creation of military equipment) programs and methods of "testing" (in quotation marks) the Redut air defense system " with IBMK "Barrier" (for more details - Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing). Why are these individuals still in office (rather than “following Supranovich”)? Did “those who are supposed to” have any questions for these officials at all? And if not, why not? The catastrophic consequences of their actions (and inaction) for the defense of the country and the fleet are obvious!

Brief conclusions on the entire “family” of the Tor air defense system and their prospects, taking into account the experience of military operations


First. The need for a significant increase in ready-to-fire ammunition and the affected area of ​​the complex. This is the experience of Karabakh and Syria (especially the massive strike on the Shayrat air base). TZM "Torah" must be able to shoot! Moreover, with the provision of the use of a "mixed" composition of missiles - and 331 series, and new 338, and promising light missiles, and (!) "Redutov" 100 and 96 missiles. On a combat vehicle, this requires too large-scale alterations, but for a TZM it turns out much easier and faster.

Second. Initially, "Thor" was built as a single complex on a single chassis (the mass of which was limited, in fact, by the mass of escorted tanks). However, today the issue of a sharp reduction in the mass of the complex and increasing its mobility is extremely acute. The solution with a 15-ton ABM is correct, but not sufficient, because only a heavy Mi-26 helicopter can carry such an external load. At the same time, there is no need for the ABM to be structurally “single”, its “decomposition” is technically possible and expedient (de facto, this is already being done for the “Thor” in the “ship modification”) into component parts suitable for transportation by Mi-8AM helicopters ( 17).

Such a solution dramatically increases the mobility of air defense systems and the ability to close "problem zones" along the terrain (the author is well aware of this issue in Kamchatka, including special campaigns to assess the accessibility of probable enemy missile routes in mountainous areas for air defense systems). defile), and simply the export attractiveness of the complex. There are very few highly mobile all-weather (with radar) air defense systems in the world, and what is, for example, the Rapira, has clearly insufficient performance characteristics.


The third. In the course of the NMD, the problem of counter-battery combat became extremely acute.

There is another significant point here: understanding the role and effectiveness of the air defense of the Ground Forces of the RF Armed Forces, in recent years, the issues of their fire destruction by long-range artillery have been purposefully worked out at the exercises of the United States and NATO (on target designation of electronic intelligence (RTR) - the operation of our air defense radar for radiation) . Accordingly, the issue of counter-battery combat and such an important component of it as artillery reconnaissance radar is extremely acute (the situation with which in the RF Armed Forces, to put it mildly, leaves much to be desired).

At the same time, the SAM firing radars themselves have sufficiently high characteristics to detect targets such as a howitzer or MLRS projectile, a mine, the issue is to refine special software for calculating their trajectories and determining the launch (shot) point. Of course, these capabilities are inferior to specialized radars and, therefore, cannot cancel them. However, specialized radars are obviously not enough, and, in addition, there is an acute issue of providing such tactical units as, for example, a battalion tactical group with reinforcements, solving independent tasks (including in isolation from the main forces). The possibility of attaching separate specialized artillery reconnaissance radars to such groups is very limited, but air defense against any serious enemy is always required. In this situation, the “link” (pair) of the Tor-2 air defense system (subject to their refinement) can significantly increase the effectiveness of counter-battery combat and the combat stability of our forces (and air defense systems).

The decisive factor in favor of "artillery modes" for firing air defense radars is the hard experience of the SVO, the acute problem of our artillery reconnaissance is not even the shortcomings of artillery radars and their shortage, but the fact that they (even promising ones), while working, are too noticeable and priority targets to hit long-range artillery of the enemy (I repeat - in the USA this is being worked out purposefully). That is, the radar must have an effective mode of operation on the move, but even promising "purely artillery" radars do not have this capability. For example, those mentioned in the article “Development of artillery reconnaissance through the use of an intelligent network control system” (magazine of the General Staff “Military Thought”, No. 12, 2021, highlighted in red) have an exclusively stationary mode of operation, and the detection distances of projectiles are such that the radars are forced to work deliberately in the zone of confident fire destruction of the enemy.


Thus, the prospective artillery reconnaissance system of the RF Armed Forces obviously does not have combat stability against a modern enemy.

In this situation, the ability to work effectively on the move (including against high-speed small targets), implemented in new modifications of the Tor air defense system, becomes extremely important - both for artillery reconnaissance tasks and simply for the survival of our Ground Forces air defense system.

Fourth. Small UAVs.

The sharp increase in the danger to modern armored vehicles from UAVs and such means of destruction as homing munitions sharply raises the issue of countering new threats. This is partly implemented in new sighting systems and ammunition such as projectiles with remote detonation (for example, on BMPT). However, the problem of "general detection" of low-altitude small-sized targets over the battlefield is extremely acute (especially with their massive use).

Objectively, this problem does not have satisfactory technical solutions within the framework of the technical solutions of the "battlefield" armored objects - sighting systems guarantee either a small viewing angle (which does not provide an effective search for such targets as small UAVs), or a deliberately insufficient range and greater meteorological dependence (in the case of the use of radar -channels of the MM range). Installing a radar with the required characteristics is technically possible, but tactically impractical due to its extreme vulnerability on the battlefield (at a significant cost).

At the same time, already about 5 years ago, quite effective projectiles with remote detonation of 30 mm caliber (including on BMPTs) were developed for armored vehicles, which are a very effective means of combating UAVs. The problem is in their primary detection - it is in the primary one, because in the presence of good target designation, the capabilities of new (modernized) sighting systems ensure the effective destruction of UAVs by 30-mm projectiles with remote detonation (moreover, with good indicators "efficiency / cost").

That is, we have “good ammunition and sights” on the armored objects of the battlefield, but extremely poor visibility and detection capabilities for small-sized UAVs. At the same time, specialized air defense systems have the opposite problems - detection capabilities are available (on the order of 3-6 km for modern SM-band surveillance radars - the most optimal for such tasks), but the use of expensive missiles to hit targets such as small UAVs is often impractical ( and very impractical in terms of efficiency/cost). Attempts to create "special cheap" missiles against UAVs are going poorly, including due to the high cost of such missiles and the great difficulty in reducing it.

The obvious solution is to ensure close tactical interaction between the “battlefield armored objects” with remotely detonated projectiles and the short-range air defense systems of the Ground Forces of the MD air defense system, operating at relatively safe distances from the front line. Such interaction, which, at the level of those directly solving a common task within a separate unit, should be carried out “directly” (and not through the “head” of higher authorities).


At the same time, MD air defense systems hit the most dangerous and “complex” targets (aircraft, helicopters, “large UAVs”, high-speed Mayverick missiles, etc.), and armored vehicles with remote projectiles, having primary detection from the MD air defense radar, “ mow down" targets such as small UAVs.

On the pages of the Military Review, this issue was already raised in an article on 01.12.2020 "At the forefront of confrontation: UAVs against air defense", however, it makes sense to return to this topic again in the near future.

Preliminary result


Returning to the topic of ABM air defense systems, it must be emphasized that they arose "technically", in order to "get rid" of the expensive and unique chassis and expand the range of possibilities for using the complex (including for export). The question arises of an effective "operational model" for the use of ABM in the air defense system of the country and the fleet, and it is obvious.

In everyday conditions, there are a lot of ground-based stationary objects that need not only air cover, but also in some cases capable of providing reliable protection, including against sudden massive enemy strikes. This is especially important for naval bases (including NSNF).

Thus, in everyday conditions, ABMs perform the task of their effective air defense (having good detection capabilities, high defeat reliability and a large ammunition load (taking into account the "shooting" TZM)). After the deployment of forces and a number of additional comprehensive defense measures, it becomes possible to release a significant part of these ABMs from ground air defense tasks. At the same time, there is a significant number of extremely valuable objects, however, either without weapons or with extremely weak defensive means. And for them, ABM can be a very effective "mobilization tool." Here it is especially necessary to note such vessels as nuclear icebreakers, valuable transports and tankers.


For warships of the Navy, the issue of air defense of landing ships is extremely sensitive and relevant (which is very strongly manifested in the SVO), and here ABM can be a very effective tool, both providing air defense at the passage by sea, and being unloaded ashore - air defense of the landing itself.


However, now, taking into account the current situation in the Black Sea Fleet and the long-term blocking of work on the Toru-MF, the Tor-M2KM air defense system is the only way to quickly strengthen the air defense of a significant part of the ships of the fleet (6 patrol ships of project 22160, two frigates of project 11356, two SKR project 1135, landing ships and auxiliary vessels). The problem is that ABM… no. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation did not purchase them (they were only exported), and the manufacture of new ones is time.

And the solution here can only be complex.

The Tor-M2 air defense system showed not only high efficiency, but also extremely necessary “promising capabilities”: as a means of counter-battery combat and a detector of even ultra-small UAVs (with the ability to issue data on them to combat weapons with 30-mm projectiles with remote detonation), this The air defense system is urgently needed by our Ground Forces (moreover, in an improved form, with a new firing radar, like the conditional "Tor-M3").

A serious deterrent here is the complexity and cost of the chassis. The obvious solution in the current situation is the modernization of the old tracked Thors under the M3. At the same time, a significant amount of air defense equipment is released, which it is advisable to use for an emergency release of ABM. Today, this option is the only way to give the army and navy the maximum number of both Tor-M2 (3) and Tor-M2KM in the shortest possible time.

I repeat - ABM "Tor-M2KM" may well be used from ships and vessels, while ensuring the detection and defeat, including low-flying anti-ship missiles. However, in its current form, ABM is precisely a land complex, with a number of serious restrictions on marine use. And this factor must be taken into account.

It is necessary to accelerate the development of a full-fledged naval self-defense air defense system.

At the same time, other areas of work (“shooting TZM” with the possibility of using 331, 338, 100 and 96 missiles, a new “small” missile) should be forced as much as possible.
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  1. +28
    6 July 2022 04: 55
    Maxim, thank you very much for the useful and interesting article. I read it in one breath.
    1. -1
      6 July 2022 06: 45
      It's in vain that Alexey Klimov and Alexander Timokhin criticize the excellent modular project 22160 type. Modularity was a success, in the stern there is a fairly large empty area. You can put TOR or Shell and there will be air defense, a Tornado-G ship with RZSO, MSTA-B and an artillery ship, you can try to put Iskander-K and the ship will actually carry cruise missiles, a helicopter, ballista and become ballistic. How all this will work is another story, paper will endure everything. So the claims are unfounded.
      1. +3
        6 July 2022 08: 22
        It is necessary to accelerate the development of a full-fledged naval self-defense air defense system.

        They sailed ... they have been developing and putting into service for so many years, but in the end there is no naval air defense system. I am using the example of Poliment-Redoubt.
        1. +2
          6 July 2022 12: 52
          The Poliment-Redut air defense system is on frigates pr.22350. Thank God, tortured, brought. But the corvettes pr.20380/20385 did not have the Poliment radar, there is only the Reduta TLU. This is the problem with the air defense of these corvettes.
      2. +1
        6 July 2022 10: 02
        Quote from: New-pechkin
        the ship will actually carry cruise missiles, a helicopter, a ballista and become ballistic.

        Will the ballista be carried?
        1. 0
          7 July 2022 19: 53
          Trebuchet :)
      3. +5
        6 July 2022 11: 19
        Quote from: New-pechkin
        You can put TOR or Shell and there will be air defense, a Tornado-G ship with RZSO, MSTA-B and an artillery ship, you can try to put Iskander-K and the ship will actually carry cruise missiles, a helicopter, ballista and become ballistic.

        Nah ... without the Yars launcher at the stern, it will not be ballistic enough. It is necessary to troll thicker, thicker. smile
        1. +4
          6 July 2022 12: 34
          It is necessary to troll thicker, thicker. smile
          I try to laughing But how to take seriously the project of the ship, on which they spent billions (about six, one), but all the weapons of the ship are one 76,2 AK-176 gun, a couple of machine guns and a hangar. That's all, there is no other for him and there is no need to tell that he was created only to drive pirates off the coast of Somalia. We played modularity, mastered the money, the project is closed and the curtain is on. Thank you all, everyone is free, there are no responsible.
          1. +3
            6 July 2022 13: 28
            Quote from: New-pechkin
            But how to take seriously the project of the ship, on which they spent billions (about six, one), but all the weapons of the ship are one 76,2 AK-176 gun, a couple of machine guns and a hangar.

            There can only be one serious attitude here: "In the name of the Russian Federation ...".
            Quote from: New-pechkin
            That's all, there is no other for him and there is no need to tell that he was created only to drive pirates off the coast of Somalia.

            Uh-huh ... despite the fact that combatants 22160 did not go further than Tartus, but 1155 continued to be on duty off the coast of Africa.
            1. +1
              7 July 2022 13: 01
              There can only be one serious attitude here: "In the name of the Russian Federation ...".

              Are you sure? While "In the name of the Russian Federation ..." Ryzhy said goodbye. As a bearer of state secrets. By the way, I would venture to be mistaken, but he is far from being the first Deputy Prime Minister or whatever, who dumped him ..... Being a carrier.
        2. 0
          6 July 2022 12: 54
          Nah ... without the Yars launcher at the stern, it will not be ballistic enough. It is necessary to troll thicker, thicker

          PU ICBM "Sarmat" and "Poseidons" on the sides :)))
      4. 0
        6 July 2022 12: 50
        Even the Navy has already refused to continue the series of these "beautiful" ships .... but there are still those who are "in the tank"
      5. +3
        6 July 2022 19: 50
        Quote from: New-pechkin
        You can put TOR or Shell and there will be air defense, a Tornado-G ship with RZSO, MSTA-B and an artillery ship, you can try to put Iskander-K and the ship will actually carry cruise missiles, a helicopter, ballista and become ballistic.

        something like this will turn out ... Chinese barge ...
        1. 0
          7 July 2022 05: 46
          Chinese barge
          Thanks, made me laugh. Almost choked on coffee this morning. Now I know what I will call the ships of this project.
        2. 0
          7 July 2022 13: 03
          And what? Quite modular. And if you stick the sun there, then in general, it’s analogous.
          1. +1
            7 July 2022 19: 57
            And if Tulip ... Then you can use it as an RBU, but you need to put a remote fuse on the mines, to a depth.
  2. +7
    6 July 2022 05: 00
    A good article ... quite informative and revealing the shortcomings of the Black Sea Fleet, which got into an unpleasant situation due to the thoughtlessness and wrecking activities of some official comrades ... these shots planted a big pig for the NWO.
    It is impossible to carry out landing operations and provide artillery support from the sea to our ground forces ... without the risk of being hit by Harpoons and other NATO surprises.
    In general, I think our command will draw the right conclusions.
  3. 0
    6 July 2022 05: 29
    Maxim, maybe use a high-altitude UAV with Afar to search for small UAVs? In general, everything is extremely disgusting with UAVs, both with drums, which have been promised since the time of the king of peas, and with reconnaissance ones. Not from a good life, Chinese crafts are massively bought for the military republics of Donbass.
    1. +1
      6 July 2022 12: 56
      maybe use a high-altitude UAV with Afar to search for small UAVs?

      Long-range and high-resolution radar requires significant energy sources. So far, we do not have a UAV in production capable of carrying and providing energy for such serious antennas.
      By the way, you can look at the Americans, they are going to massively hang airships with radars to detect cruise missiles and hypersonic missiles.
    2. 0
      6 July 2022 14: 03
      We are bad with AFARs, and with high-altitude UAVs.
      And where to land / take off?
      It's about the Navy.
      Not from a good life, Chinese crafts are massively bought for the military republics of Donbass

      MO reported on the presence. +2000 UAVs in front of their own.
      They forgot about the batteries of 2015.
  4. +16
    6 July 2022 05: 53
    Meritless mediocrity sit on leather stools, and until they are cleaned out, our ships will successfully sink. But they have not yet encountered a serious fleet ....
  5. Eug
    +5
    6 July 2022 06: 16
    I had such a question - which is easier, faster and cheaper - to finalize the Pantsir radar (which also provides "shell" work on "cheap" targets) for "marine" use or to create a practically new firing radar (with counter-battery capabilities) for TOR ... what is undoubted is the need for strict putting things in order in the development of weapons.
    1. +1
      6 July 2022 09: 49
      Quote: Eug
      what is undoubted is the need for strict putting things in order in the development of weapons.

      Agree completely. The rest is nonsense. Will this information reach the decision-making places and organizations that will put things in order in the development and implementation of the necessary weapons?
      The article is excellent, takes to the soul.
    2. +3
      6 July 2022 13: 18
      I had such a question - which is easier, faster and cheaper - to finalize the Pantsir radar (which also provides "shell" work on "cheap" targets) for "marine" use or to create a practically new firing radar (with counter-battery capabilities) for TOR ... what is undoubted is the need for strict putting things in order in the development of weapons.


      1. Improvement is needed at the software level
      2. Specifications for accuracy are higher for KBP (because mm), but there is no all-weather capability (which is important)
      3. The technical characteristics of TM2 are SUFFICIENT (albeit limited), but TM3 is almost at the level of Pants (moreover, on CENTIMETERS - including with all-weather)
      4. new lock for T ALREADY IS (M3)
  6. +8
    6 July 2022 06: 18
    Maxim, how do you imagine the installation and launch of 100 and 96 rockets from the Thor installation?

    And yes, no offense, but both you and Klimov in your publications without a monocle show bias towards some manufacturers, with the merciless drowning of competitors.

    For example, from my sofa I see that the Shell can change the radar to a different range, that the Shell already has cheap missiles, and in fact there are missiles with a range of 40 km.

    And it seems to me that it is easier to replace / supplement the radar than to redo the entire complex.

    Why didn't they mention Broadsword?
    1. +2
      6 July 2022 09: 21
      Quote: demiurg
      Maxim, how do you imagine the installation and launch of 100 and 96 rockets from the Thor installation?

      it is quite obvious that this was not about installing Thor in the form in which it is now
      1. +2
        6 July 2022 09: 55
        That is, to the Torah to attach Redoubt to the blue electrical tape? Will it be considered fast or cheap? There is a Shell SM ready for production, with a firing range of 40 km (this is if it’s like the Buk M2). There is a broadsword. And in the form of a ZAK, and in the form of an air defense system, and in the form of an air defense system. Everything is ready for the series, just pay.
        But no, you need to take Tor, and start developing on its basis an actually new air defense system with new performance characteristics. Am I the only one who thinks this is illogical and biased? And all just because someone does not like the organization that produces the Shell.

        Thor in the form of a separate module will never become a massive air defense system in the fleet. Everything rests on the length of the rocket and, accordingly, the range and altitude (the legacy of the land launcher). And there are no inclined ones for Thor even in projects. To attach something Redoubt-shaped as a module, this immediately increases the size of the carrier ship and the price tag.
        1. -2
          6 July 2022 10: 02
          Quote: demiurg
          That is, to the Torah to attach Redoubt to the blue electrical tape?

          Read about insulation

          With the surveillance radar available for the Tor-M2 air defense system (with an update rate of 1 s), the use of the 9M96 missile defense system for the same Bayraktar can be fully ensured even at the maximum operating distances of its surveillance station (about 50 km).

          That is, the "Polyment" radar from the Redoubt, according to the author, is not needed.
          We need the ability to launch missiles with a longer range from the Redut air defense system.

          Quote: demiurg
          There is a Shell SM ready for production, with a firing range of 40 km (this is if it’s like the Buk M2). There is a broadsword.

          You somehow jump too freely from land-based air defense systems to sea ones.
          I can't follow your train of thought.
          1. +2
            6 July 2022 10: 16
            Oh everything. Just tell me where the 9M96E launchers for Thor on Karakurt/Molniya/Gadfly will be located. I'll just remind you that the length of the rocket alone is 4.75 meters. 9M100E according to performance characteristics is the same Torah missile, only with ARGSN.

            It seems to me more real (and more useful) the appearance of a marine version of the Shell SM. Inclined PUs allow the placement of more long-range missiles.
            1. +1
              6 July 2022 10: 22
              Quote: demiurg
              Just tell me where the 9M96E launchers for Thor on Karakurt / Lightning / Gadfly will be located

              And you know how to talk the subject.
              At 22800, the Marine Pantsir-M is already being installed.
              And Klimov did not offer to change them.

              There can be no talk about the old missile boats Gadfly and Lightning.
              On them, the placement of any serious air defense systems was not provided initially and is not being considered now.
              1. +1
                6 July 2022 11: 16
                Okay, I won't pry. Let's discuss in detail.
                Name a new or under construction project that needs a Torah with 9M96E missiles.
                1. 0
                  6 July 2022 11: 46
                  Quote: demiurg
                  Name a new or under construction project that needs a Torah with 9M96E missiles.

                  As for the Lightning, I was kind of wrong.
                  The author mentioned the Shuya missile launcher, pr. 21417, on which, as I understand it, Pantsir-M was installed instead of the Kortik for testing.
                  Then it was dismantled.
                  That is, it is possible to arm "Lightning" with Shells.
                  But not Torami.

                  And Torah-MF instead of Osa-M on the IPC pr. 1124, if the resource of the ships allows.
                  And also to the old BDK pr. 775 and 1171, which, due to the lack of ships of this type, will be operated for a long time.
                  For the new BDK pr. 1171.
                  For all virtually unarmed new patrol ships built and under construction.
                  Perhaps on the UDC under construction
                  1. +1
                    6 July 2022 12: 00
                    And you know how to talk the subject.
                    Where are the free volumes and weights on the Albatross to accommodate rockets almost five meters long? Why BDK missiles with a firing range of more than 40 km?
                    I'm just reminding you that with the current missiles, no one in the Navy needs Thor. Range of 12 km, this is not serious. And everything tasty, such as long-range missiles or homing missiles, requires UVP. Which suddenly raises the cost of refitting the ship, and increases the displacement requirement.
                    But the Carapace / Broadsword can fit quite well on Lightning, with minimal modifications.

                    The idea of ​​using Thor's surveillance radar to control the Redoubt is beyond good and evil. Sewing a jacket to a button simply because the author likes the manufacturer.

                    A combination of Calm and Shell is better. Individually, they are serial. The shell, at least the land one, may well control other machines.
                    1. 0
                      6 July 2022 12: 08
                      Quote: demiurg
                      And you know how to talk the subject.

                      good carcass

                      Quote: demiurg
                      Where are the free volumes and weights on the Albatross to accommodate rockets almost five meters long?

                      admit
                      I overlooked how you posed the question
                      wrote about Tor-MF

                      Quote: demiurg
                      The shell / broadsword is quite suitable for itself and can fit on the Lightning, with minimal modifications.

                      with which I agree (see comment above)
                    2. +3
                      6 July 2022 22: 03
                      From the author M. Klimov

                      Where are the free volumes and weights on the Albatross to accommodate rockets almost five meters long?


                      MK:
                      standard 96VPU of 4 modules easily takes the place of the Wasp's cellar, yes, with a "house"
                      4 UVP make it possible to have BC, for example 9-96 and 8-338 (or a larger number due to the "small" missiles)
                      moreover, 338 and 96 really provide a high probability of ONE SAM (and not in one gulp)


                      demiurg Today, 12:00
                      Why BDK missiles with a firing range of more than 40 km?


                      МК
                      Then, for example, to shoot down the JAPANESE NW anti-ship missiles (for D km, so 10-20)
                      or SDB MEDIA

                      demiurg Today, 12:00
                      I'm just reminding you that with current missiles, no one in the Navy needs Thor. Range of 12 km, this is not serious.


                      MK:
                      1. if "Moscow" even had such a truncated "Thor", then it would SHOT the missiles that attacked it
                      2. Even if such a truncated version went to the ship mod, then at least 4-5 MPK-RTOs (CAPABLE OF PROVIDING DESO air defense from anti-ship missiles !!!) would be in the Black Sea Fleet

                      demiurg Today, 12:00
                      And everything tasty, such as long-range missiles or homing missiles, requires UVP.


                      MK:
                      YOU absolutely "cuckoo caught"??? UVP has nothing to do with D at all, not to mention that UVP has been on the Torah since birth!

                      demiurg Today, 12:00
                      Which suddenly raises the cost of refitting the ship, and increases the displacement requirement.
                      But the Carapace / Broadsword can fit quite well on Lightning, with minimal modifications.


                      MK:
                      1. Tor-FM is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than Pantsir-M (not to mention the possibility of a series, taking into account the slippery issue of import substitution)
                      2. Tor-FM stood in place of the Wasp - easy
                      3. MGH Shell is LESS, but in terms of REAL EFFICIENCY (I'm not talking about advertising tabular data), to put it mildly, "there are questions" - see, for example, VIM about Syria

                      demiurg Today, 12:00
                      The idea of ​​using Thor's surveillance radar to control the Redoubt is beyond good and evil.


                      MK: MOUSSIER, SHE PROVIDES IT

                      demiurg Today, 12:00
                      Sewing a jacket to a button simply because the author likes the manufacturer.


                      MK: I especially "like" the city of Kartashov - in relation to which the author regrets that at one time he did not break the scoreboard

                      demiurg Today, 12:00
                      A combination of Calm and Shell is better. Individually, they are serial.


                      MK: yeah, and this is called ... 11356 GEM for which, apparently, YOU have "lying around under the sofa")))

                      demiurg Today, 12:00
                      The shell, at least the land one, may well control other machines.


                      MK: quit drug addiction already
                2. +6
                  6 July 2022 12: 19
                  Name a new or under construction project that needs a Torah with 9M96E missiles.

                  These are corvettes pr.20380/20385. We are talking about using the existing 12-16 launchers of the Redut air defense system to be placed in 9M96 missiles, 1 per cell and 9M100 and 9M338, 4 per cell. There has never been a Poliment radar on 20380/20385 - this is the main problem with the missile defense of these projects.
                  At first, the Furke radar station was located there (which did not allow 9M96 missiles to be guided), and on the latter they put the Zaslon radar station, which, apparently, is still not operational, while at the same time it is prohibitively expensive (some sources report that up to half the cost of the entire corvette ).
                  The idea is obvious to replace the RLC with the "Torovsky". Separate detection and tracking antenna posts. The latter can be put in two pieces: on the hangar and on the wheelhouse, which will ensure simultaneous shelling of targets from different directions with 9M388 radio command missiles. In addition, the "Kortik" air defense system (wetted "Thor") was also able to control the fire of a 30-mm AK-630.
                  We get a layered multi-channel air defense system that allows:
                  - based on the data of the detection station, conduct all-angle fire with missiles with ARGSN 9M96 at distances up to 50 km
                  - intercept in the near zone the targets that have broken through in 2 sectors with 9M388 radio command missiles under the control of the Tor guidance stations
                  - intercept in the near zone and outside the sectors of the SN "Tor" missiles with ARGSN 9M100
                  - finish off the remaining ZAK AK-630M under the control of CH "Tor"

                  About the 40 km range of the new Pantsirya-SM hypersonic missiles, you need to understand that even the developers themselves say that such a range is not a goal, but a consequence of the increased rocket speed, which is needed to more quickly release control channels, of which the Pantsir has only four.
                  The laws of control and the design of the missile defense system used on the Pantsir do not allow fighting maneuvering targets and targets with a large heading parameter at much shorter distances. The maximum that can bring down the "Shell" at 40 km is a non-maneuvering target flying in its direction, for example, a MLRS missile or a drone. For this he was created. And, for example, a maneuvering aircraft or a missile with a large course parameter (that is, flying past the "Shell" and entering another target) will no longer be too tough for him.
                  1. STD
                    0
                    7 July 2022 08: 24
                    Quote: Cympak

                    based on the data of the detection station, conduct all-angle fire with missiles with ARGSN 9M96 at distances up to 50 km

                    Thor in its current form with 96 and 100 cannot be made friends in any way. At all.
                  2. 0
                    7 July 2022 23: 21
                    Quote: Cympak
                    The laws of control and the design of the missile defense system used on the Pantsir do not allow fighting maneuvering targets and targets with a large heading parameter at much shorter distances.

                    Why do the laws of control and the design of missiles not allow the Pantsir to deal with maneuvering targets and targets with a large heading parameter?
                    1. +1
                      8 July 2022 19: 42
                      Answer from the author M. Klimov:

                      "Repin's painting - sailed" ... BECAUSE IT IS, IN ESSENCE, AUS WITH A BOOSTER! And intensive maneuvers “eat up” energy (the source of which is simply absent in the controlled area)
                      How the KBP “shrunk” with guidance methods - I know TOO well - because they were very similar to the M15 until they were convinced in tests that the firing nozzle (and the corresponding low speed mode) was not needed even at the smallest depths
                      1. 0
                        8 July 2022 21: 55
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Answer from the author M. Klimov:

                        "Repin's painting - sailed" ... BECAUSE IT IS, IN ESSENCE, AUS WITH A BOOSTER! And intensive maneuvers “eat up” energy (the source of which is simply absent in the controlled area)
                        How the KBP “shrunk” with guidance methods - I know TOO well - because they were very similar to the M15 until they were convinced in tests that the firing nozzle (and the corresponding low speed mode) was not needed even at the smallest depths

                        Intense maneuvers for any missiles eat up energy. 95Ya6(M) is a two-stage missile with a single-mode engine. So are all modern missiles from Fakel and URVV from Vympel - with a single-mode engine, only it does not separate. In your opinion, they are all AUS WITH A BOOSTER (inseparable). At the SAM Thor, the speed increases only in the starting mode of operation of the solid propellant rocket engine; in the marching mode of operation of the solid propellant rocket engine, the speed of the SAM Tor decreases. At 9M330/331, the solid propellant rocket engine finishes its work at a distance between 8 km and 9 km. And then, In your opinion, ZUR Torah - AUS WITH A BOOSTER.
                      2. +2
                        9 July 2022 23: 30
                        Answer from the author M. Klimov:

                        Intense maneuvers for any missiles eat up energy. 95Ya6(M) is a two-stage missile with a single-mode engine. So are all modern missiles from Fakel and URVV from Vympel - with a single-mode engine, only it does not separate. In your opinion, they are all AUS WITH A BOOSTER (inseparable). At the SAM Thor, the speed increases only in the starting mode of operation of the solid propellant rocket engine; in the marching mode of operation of the solid propellant rocket engine, the speed of the SAM Tor decreases. At 9M330/331, the solid propellant rocket engine finishes its work at a distance between 8 km and 9 km. And then, In your opinion, ZUR Torah - AUS WITH A BOOSTER.


                        MK: They have a solid propellant rocket engine that has a significantly longer operating time, and, accordingly, the ability to hit maneuvering targets and targets with a parameter. Do we need "booster" missiles like "shell"? Yes, they make sense - in the "light means" of SELF DEFENSE (i.e. with a small parameter and extremely limited opportunities to cover others), but here the Sosnovskaya SAM is more optimal (for targets like "Harpoon") (with increased BC on launchers), another - the defeat of high-speed, low-maneuverable targets with a small parameter - there "booster" ones in small MGHs win, but in terms of typical, maneuvering and with a parameter, they lose quite significantly (which was clearly shown by the same comparative firing of "Thor" and "Shell")
            2. +1
              6 July 2022 13: 16
              Oh everything. Just tell me where the 9M96E launchers for Thor on Karakurt/Molniya/Gadfly will be located. I'll just remind you that the length of the rocket alone is 4.75 meters. 9M100E according to performance characteristics is the same Torah missile, only with ARGSN.
              It seems to me more real (and more useful) the appearance of a marine version of the Shell SM. Inclined PUs allow the placement of more long-range missiles.


              MK: once again, monsieur, no need to weave ADVERTISING ENTERTAINMENTS from KBP here
              I remind you again:

              We were in a hurry, because about six years had passed since the appearance of reliable data on the NLC, and at the end we had only about a dozen research projects. Therefore, by the time the decree was signed, our 28th institute had already agreed with the KBP on the text of the TTZ on the ROC. But with its approval and signing, we had to take our time. Upon closer examination, it turned out that the institute agreed on such a zone of destruction, which could not suit the Navy in any way. How it happened, no one could really explain. In practice, from that huge sector of shelling targets in range and height, which was shown in the final materials of the research and was drawn on the pictures of the “lure”, only a small sector remained at the lower border of the affected area. The time allotted for us to issue the TTZ was inexorably reduced, but we had to meet with Shipunov additionally. We agreed relatively quickly, they simply asked to clarify that the sector of the affected area described in the relevant paragraphs would be capable of turning up to 85 degrees from the horizon. Arkady Georgievich agreed with the proposal, but at the same time noticed that in Tula he would be beaten for this consent.


              = not even a turn of the affected area is left, but ... 300 (THREE HUNDRED METERS)
              and this is REALITY
              Tests of the Shell for REAL GOALS to check the PARAMETER, CHANNELING have been carried out? What about the effectiveness of warheads on the declared Mach 3 targets (and after "Belgorod" they finally thought about this)? As?

              And as for the 96 PU - GETTING UP (and ALREADY STANDING - I'm talking about the possibility of a mod for serial ships, and first of all for "hammering holes" in air defense 20380)
              you will see at the exhibitions in a timely manner
        2. +2
          6 July 2022 13: 14
          MK:

          demiurg
          Т
          oh is there a Redoubt to be tied to the Thor on the blue electrical tape?


          MK:
          Unlike Furke, the surveyor (not to mention the shooting lock) Torah completely provides redutov's missiles.
          Software development is a penny and a maximum of a couple of months.

          demiurge-
          Will it be considered fast or cheap?


          MK:
          yes, it's fast and cheap

          demiurge-
          There is a Shell SM ready for production, with a firing range of 40 km (this is if it’s like the Buk M2).


          MK: Boy, your problem is that you apparently skipped physics at school. Do not confuse "advertising lures" with REAL BATTLE POSSIBILITIES. The new SAM for the Shell is sabotage and nonsense, because in order to achieve the "theoretical" 40 km (weakly provided with a firing lock), a powerful booster was installed = a corresponding INCREASE IN THE DEAD ZONE OF THE COMPLEX (moreover, where there is the main firing range of the complex !!!). About the "advertising lures" of the KBP, a little lower (and very "scandalous")

          I’m not talking about the fact that after the booster is separated, the ability of missiles to engage maneuverable targets is sharply reduced (as well as how the NEW "miss tube" is consistent with the solidity radius of the rods - and questions about the Shell warhead have already arisen, including on recent attack on Belgorod).

          From REALITY (and "advertising lures"):

          We were in a hurry, because about six years had passed since the appearance of reliable data on the NLC, and at the end we had only about a dozen research projects. Therefore, by the time the decree was signed, our 28th institute had already agreed with the KBP on the text of the TTZ on the ROC. But with its approval and signing, we had to take our time. Upon closer examination, it turned out that the institute agreed on such a zone of destruction, which could not suit the Navy in any way. How it happened, no one could really explain. In practice, from that huge sector of shelling targets in range and height, which was shown in the final materials of the research and was drawn on the pictures of the “lure”, only a small sector remained at the lower border of the affected area. The time allotted for us to issue the TTZ was inexorably reduced, but we had to meet with Shipunov additionally.
          We agreed relatively quickly, they simply asked to clarify that the sector of the affected area described in the relevant paragraphs would be capable of turning up to 85 degrees from the horizon. Arkady Georgievich agreed with the proposal, but at the same time noticed that in Tula he would be beaten for this consent.


          As a result - REAL PARAMETER Dagger = 300 (!) meters. Fseeee.
          And a very "good" question - HOW (and for WHAT purposes) the parameter of Pants was checked.
          This does not mean that Pants is "bad", but he is a SELF-DEFENSE ZARK (with all the consequences) + with a very conditional "all-weather"

          demiurge-
          There is a broadsword. And in the form of a ZAK, and in the form of an air defense system, and in the form of an air defense system. Everything is ready for the series, just pay.


          MK: Don't talk nonsense, it hurts.
          1. OPTICAL broadsword (the radar was thrown out of it a long time ago and its "stub" of locks is now known as "Fregat-4")
          2. The broadsword is SINGLE-CHANNEL.
          But the Palashevskaya missile defense system is very well balanced for its real kill zone, and the same Shell with them (instead of its own oversized missiles) and without the SHP would have gone very well, for example, to modernize ships in place of the AK-630M ... but "muddy currents" inside "High-precision complexes"

          demiurg
          But no, you need to take Tor, and start developing on its basis an actually new air defense system with new performance characteristics. Am I the only one who thinks this is illogical and biased? And all just because someone does not like the organization that produces the Shell.


          MK:
          1. Give me an ALL-WEATHER close-range air defense system other than Thor. ZHDEMS. Once again ALL-WEATHER (in connection with which the Shell is not offered)
          2. The problem of the Shell - in the shitty defeat of a number of targets (which are suddenly reliably hit by Thor)
          3. An all-weather SAM with a significant parameter suddenly becomes ... TOR (see shooting lock and "classic" SAM without a booster)
          4. I have normal relations with the KBP, I would even say "personally good"))) But I have been talking to them about the need for at least "2 cm" care for 7 years already

          demiurge-
          Thor in the form of a separate module will never become a massive air defense system in the fleet.


          MK: AND THIS IS NOT NECESSARY (I'm talking about ABM), then what we are talking about is EMERGENCY MEASURES FOR PLUGING "holes" + mob ships and ships (the same BOHR)

          demiurge-
          Everything rests on the length of the rocket and, accordingly, the range and altitude (the legacy of the land launcher). And there are no inclined ones for Thor even in projects. To attach something Redoubt-shaped as a module, this immediately increases the size of the carrier ship and the price tag.


          MK: YOU are illiterate ACHINEA, which has nothing to do with technology
          you just need to install 96PU with the ability to install both 96 (+) and 100, 338 and new missiles into it
          1. +2
            6 July 2022 20: 24
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Software development is a penny and a maximum of a couple of months.

            Sorry, but I'm also in the subject ... If comrades Stalin and Beria were alive then - yes, but in the current realities - no.
            Here, sometimes the customer himself slows down the topic in order to receive large funds for development. And here it is necessary to introduce SMERSH, purely my IMHO. And so on all topics, both in the Moscow Region and in civil matters.
            1. 0
              7 July 2022 23: 24
              Quote: PSih2097
              4. I have normal relations with the KBP, I would even say "personally good"))) But I have been talking to them about the need for at least "2 cm" care for 7 years already

              And what does the KBP say to you about your proposal to leave by 2 cm?
              1. 0
                8 July 2022 19: 45
                Answer from the author M. Klimov:

                I will not give these "arguments" due to their "liquidity" (as well as all the efforts of the KBP not to get the appropriate conditions on real tests)
                1. 0
                  8 July 2022 21: 10
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  I will not give these "arguments" due to their "liquidity" (as well as all the efforts of the KBP not to get the appropriate conditions on real tests)

                  Strange answer.
                  1. 0
                    9 July 2022 23: 29
                    Answer from the author M. Klimov:

                    Did you really expect that I would describe here how best to break through the "Shell"?
    2. 0
      6 July 2022 13: 01
      Maxim, how do you imagine the installation and launch of 100 and 96 rockets from the Thor installation?

      As far as I understand, it was primarily about the placement of the 9M388 SAM in the Redoubt TLU on ships.
    3. 0
      6 July 2022 13: 10
      Answer from M. Klimov:

      demiurg
      Maxim, how do you imagine the installation and launch of 100 and 96 rockets from the Thor installation?


      MK:
      For those who are on the armored train ONCE AGAIN - the article says this clearly and in Russian - on the TZM (transport-loading vehicle). Do you speak Russian?

      demiurg
      And yes, no offense, but both you and Klimov in your publications without a monocle show bias towards some manufacturers, with the merciless drowning of competitors.


      MK: yes, I am engaged - BY OBJECTIVITY. For this reason, those who scream about "the engagement of some and the drowning of others" with ARGUMENTS for this are somehow completely liquid, or rather, they simply DO NOT.
      And I will add, those who are in the subject and know me on real topics (what got into the state defense order with my participation and with my filing) know very well (sometimes with "gnashing of teeth") how I DERU on the same tests (and far from "in within the framework of the TTZ"), and how, at my suggestion, on "my zhezez", people then plow for months without a day off and until 21-22 "finishing their tails".
      By the way, it’s very clearly “rubilovo” on “Ichthyosaurus”, for articles on which the Civil Code of which was very offended by me (and not only), as a result of which I was SENT by me with a complete break in communication.

      demiurge-
      For example, from my sofa I see that the Shell can change the radar to a different range, that the Shell already has cheap missiles, and in fact there are missiles with a range of 40 km.


      MK: YOU are talking nonsense because
      1. You can "change" only on the diva, because under the characteristics of the mm-radar, the complex was not just "sharpened", but EVERYTHING was done for it, including firing methods, missile guidance geometry, etc. - as a result of which the transition to at least 2 cm firing lock is an extremely non-trivial task
      2. SAMs of the "boosted scheme" have some advantages, but also a number of extremely serious and unpleasant drawbacks.
      It is very significant that even the city of Kartashov, which I hated, was completely "washed" by the chief locator of the KBP, in fact, at the school physics course, began to "whip" in response to the KBP on REAL tests (with which, to put it mildly, not everything goes smoothly to the KBP)
      3. ZUR yes, cheaper (and not much "new 338"). But after all, she needs to hit (including on "difficult" targets)!
      4. 40km???? - FOR WHAT PURPOSE?!?!? ah, KBP is "modestly silent"? and turn on the brains of the bosses? Let me remind you that it was not just that the PARAMETER at the "Kortik" was 300m (THREE HUNDRED METERS), but how it appeared - see Pechenkin, and Shipounov subscribed to this !!! And what is the parameter for the same anti-ship missiles for "P-M" now? Oh, "the tests were not carried out"? And why? Whether not because that . bosses understand that their result will be "sour"?

      demiurg
      And it seems to me that it is easier to replace / supplement the radar than to redo the entire complex.


      MK: even the M2 firing lock confidently provides what is needed, it is enough to IMPROVE the software (not to mention the new M3 lock with sharply increased performance characteristics), and the question of shooting well with the "old" from under the "new" has long been worked out in M2-1 (t .e. just for Thor this is REFINEMENT, and from for Pants - it is REVERSATION OF EVERYTHING)

      demiurg
      Why didn't they mention Broadsword?


      MK: because the article is about ABM. I blow you speak Russian? ABM Broadsword is simply NOT.
      Yes, the Broadsword is a much more balanced complex than the Shell - CONSIDERED - until it lost the radar part COMPLETELY (i.e. with all-weather it is even worse than that of the Shell)
      1. -1
        6 July 2022 17: 24
        Shell has ONLY 4 channels. Thor has ALL four channels. And the whole article is full of similar.
        Lord, to write such footcloths, and all for what? In order to write once again that instead of the Barrier on the Guardians, it is necessary to put a radar from Thor? You are very predictable, I thought you would break before, but you honestly held on for a while before narrowing everything down to 20380. You are very aggressively pushing your Wishlist, slinging mud at competitors. If you were a little more restrained, I would believe you were right.
        I will tell you what will happen to the Guardians / Bulls / Karakurts. The Barrier and the Sea Shell will be brought to mind one way or another (or maybe they have already, I honestly don’t know). Because in particular cases, brought to mind, they will be many times more effective than a symbiont of brigade and divisional air defense systems, with spaced launchers and radars that detect targets at a distance when it is already possible to shoot with might and main.

        On Guarding Zaslon will have a greater channel and detection range. On Karakurt / Bykovo, the Shell will have the opportunity to shoot down the same bayraktar hanging 35 km away. But Tor in a marine version, neither on Karakurt nor on Steregushchy, will not be able to do this. In the first case, there is nowhere to shove the missiles (or will we also insert TZM into Karakurt?), In the second, there are only 4 channels for all 360 degrees (which, by the way, I doubt, 4 channels are most likely in a limited sector).
        And yes, right Broadsword radar was removed. He still thought for small ships. He will receive the primary control center from the surveillance radar
        1. 0
          6 July 2022 22: 09
          Answer from M. Klimov:

          Shell has ONLY 4 channels. Thor has ALL four channels. And the whole article is full of such.


          MK: monsieur, of course, YOU have proofs??? - because it's YOUR nonsense!

          Lord, to write such footcloths, and all for what?


          MK: Footcloths - AND FALSE COMING HERE FROM YOU

          In order to write once again that instead of the Barrier on the Guardians, it is necessary to put a radar from Thor?


          MK: MONSIER BREAKING, YOU apparently "can" (but in fact you LIE and can't do anything) bring proofs to where I ALLEGEDLY "stated" (in quotation marks) that "instead of the Barrier" it is necessary to "install a radar from Thor"?
          Do you have any idea what kind of nonsense YOU are talking about? TTX reviewer Torovsky stupidly look!
          As for the shooting one, it really works for Thor (unlike ...) and in terms of performance characteristics - see the REAL already M3 with IBMK advertising PR

          You are very predictable, I thought you would break before, but you honestly held on for a while before narrowing everything down to 20380.


          MK: Monsieur BRECHLO, 20380 is NOT REPRODUCABLE IN THE SERIES today (which was clearly shown in Timokhin's last article, and "individually and personally" - on the "Barrier"), and the question is now "blazing with a blue flame" - EMERGENCY ELIMINATION OF CRITICAL DEFECTS of these ships ( in the first place for air defense)

          You shove your Wishlist very aggressively, slinging mud at your competitors.


          MK: Monsieur BELL, we are waiting for YOU to give a link to the "watering" (which, and the false BELLOWS come from YOU here)
          especially after what was said in the streams and interviews on "Moscow" (yes, about "Shuya" and the lead 22800 with "Pantsir-M".
          Or the FACTS OF CRIMINAL CONSOLUTION to shove the fleet of "brown substance" (IBMK "Zaslon") with CRIMINAL and FALSE (FACTS of which are given, including in the "excuses" of the VIP in the GWP and the AP) is this "watering" for YOU?
          Monsieur, YOU have all the "stigma in the cannon" (to the very tail) - FOR WHOSE PURPOSE YOU are now salivating and lying here!

          I will tell you what will happen to the Guardians / Bulls / Karakurts. The Barrier and the Sea Shell will be brought to mind one way or another (or maybe they have already, I honestly don’t know).


          MK: Monsieur, are you really "cuckoo"?
          1. On the "Guarding" "Kortik-M" which is initially working (but within its performance characteristics, including a small parameter)
          2. "Barrier" - a complete ass in the series - absolute. To bring this organized crime group begging for more LARDS (which "suddenly" ... ran out). "results" - see OSCERS on the latest firing at the Pacific Fleet
          3. There is NO "Shell" or "Barrier" on "Bykov" - SIMPLY NO
          4. "Karakurt" - "Pantsir-M" WORKS, but with its own limitations (including mm and boosted missiles)

          Because in particular cases, brought to mind, they will be many times more effective than a symbiont of brigade and divisional air defense systems, with spaced launchers and radars that detect targets at a distance when it is already possible to shoot with might and main.


          MK: Monsieur, are YOU able to logically substantiate this diarrhea of ​​their letters with something?

          On Guarding Zaslon will have a greater channel and detection range.


          MK: do you swear by "mom and dad"? By the way, where did YOU get such a ... nose for these swindlers? As?
          Especially given that the shooting of both "Thundering" and "Aldar" is ready-made material for a criminal case?

          On Karakurt / Bykovo, the Shell will have the opportunity to shoot down the same bayraktar hanging 35 km away. But Tor in a marine version, neither on Karakurt nor on Steregushchy, will not be able to do this. In the first case, there is nowhere to shove the missiles (or will we also insert TZM into Karakurt?), In the second, there are only 4 channels for all 360 degrees (which, by the way, I doubt, 4 channels are most likely in a limited sector).


          MK:
          The problem is that Panz will not be able to shoot down ANYTHING maneuvering at 35 km (and, by the way, at a much shorter distance) - and is this objective physics? or YOU will start your hysteria that "mom-dad klanus" ???
          AND THE FACT that this problem is effectively solved - NORMAL, CORRECT ZUR (96)
          And yes, channel 4 in the SECTOR is against "SHEETS of plaque" and 360 - (96 and 100, but the MAIN caliber is cheap and reliable 338)

          And yes, right Broadsword radar was removed. He still thought for small ships. He will receive the primary control center from the surveillance radar


          MK: Monsieur, one of the reasons why, from 11356, after throwing out the "Dagger" (after its obseration in India when compared with "Barak-1"), they did not remove its command module with the "Positive" - ​​that the accuracy of the "Frigate" is NOT ENOUGH to give the control center UPS "Baghir" for 630.
          I'm not talking about how the ECO will "work" in the same rain

          PS
          Monsieur, don’t give a damn to YOU ​​here heart-rendingly with your “fillet twist” (practicing in front of the frank rats of our defense industry, called in Peter ZASr ..tsami) I REPEAT AGAIN, you don’t like “Thor” - name AT LEAST ONE “ALTERNATIVE” SO ADMS with radio command missiles and see - shooting lock
          ZHDEMS
  7. +8
    6 July 2022 06: 19
    Many (not all) giggled at the conspiracy theory, but now it's not a theory but a harsh reality. All sorts of Supranoviches are sitting quite calmly now, sitting in warm key places and "developing" domestic electronics, aircraft manufacturing, space, etc. extremely important areas in terms of import substitution. The Cheka is needed, not the FSB, not the KGB, but the Cheka with triples.
    Well, specifically on the topic, there is a question - what prevents the widespread introduction of 9M100 missiles (expensive but not more expensive than money, in history that it is possible to produce either the 96th or 9M100, I don’t believe, the products are somewhat different) another Supranovich?
  8. 0
    6 July 2022 06: 38
    The article, not intended for the reader from the street, in the course of reading raised many questions that remained unanswered.
    However, in its current form, ABM is precisely a land complex, with a number of serious restrictions on marine use. And this factor must be taken into account.

    How are ABMs that have not passed the proper test put on ships? What was the driving stimulus here: the fast receipt of budget funds or the lack of the proper quantity and quality of targets for verification, which implies formalism in assessing the readiness of ABM for use in the fleet? It is assumed to me that both options have passed (by analogy with the l / s sitting ON armored vehicles).
    You perfectly understand that the legalized VAT is the enemy of high-tech production. That is why it is a brake in military (and not only) production ...
    It is not clear why the land "Thor", capable of hitting air targets on the move, cannot be modified to work in conditions of sea rolling ... What's stopping you? Lack of technologies, materials or development specialists? What is not taken into account?
    *****
    This:

    a priori should not have been the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet ...
    Anachronism and disregard for compliance with modern requirements.
    *****
    I didn't lose my breath while reading, but I had to reread some paragraphs. True, even after that, it is not clear to me why the palliative is still used. Where is the present - "analogs in the world"? To a specialist like you, a participant in the discussions:
    During the active discussion of the report of Mr. Kartashov (at the IMDS), an active and heated discussion ensued, including with the participation of the author of the article and a representative of the competitor of JSC IEMZ Kupol - JSC KBP (ZRPK Pantsir).

    it should be known. Although, my question is rather rhetorical.
    hi
    1. +6
      6 July 2022 11: 44
      Quote: ROSS 42
      How are ABMs that have not passed the proper test put on ships? What was the driving stimulus here: the fast receipt of budget funds or the lack of the proper quantity and quality of targets for verification, which implies formalism in assessing the readiness of ABM for use in the fleet? It is assumed to me that both options have passed (by analogy with the l / s sitting ON armored vehicles).

      So the answers are given in the article: ABM is an initiative development of the "Dome", which was also tested on an initiative basis at the Black Sea Fleet. At the same time, the fleet traditionally saved targets.
      Moreover:
      The problem is that ABM... no. RF Ministry of Defense they were not purchased (only exported), and the manufacture of new ones is time.

      That is, ABMs standing on ships formally do not exist for the Navy.
      Reminds me of the story with the Tallboys, when the 617th wing was bombed by the property of the Vickers plant on the first sortie. smile
      The next morning, after a raid on Saumur, a high-ranking official from the Bomber Command burst into Sir Wilfred Freeman’s office, waving photographs of the destroyed tunnel.
      - Oh my God! He screamed. “Why haven't we used these incredible things before?” How much will we get them?
      “Not a single one, I'm afraid,” the Vickers spokesman who was in the room answered coldly. The officer stared at him with his mouth open.
      - What does it mean?
      - Exactly this. We still have some reserves, but they belong to us. Not to you.
      - What are you talking about?
      “Your guys never ordered these bombs from us.” We make them ourselves. They belong to us.
      “I get it,” the Very Important Person nodded. - We will take care of placing the order right now.
      © Barker R. Flood Germany!
      Quote: ROSS 42
      It is not clear why the land "Thor", capable of hitting air targets on the move, cannot be modified to work in conditions of sea rolling ... What's stopping you? Lack of technologies, materials or development specialists?

      And this question is answered in the article: the lack of desire of the fleet. All work on the M2KM and MF was carried out by the "Dome" on its own initiative, and ship tests were carried out with the support of the KomChF.
      To refine the algorithms, we need statistics. And for statistics, real conditions of application are needed - that is, real carriers and goals as close to reality as possible. This can be achieved only with the maximum use of the resources of the Navy, which is impossible for initiative work. That is, for the marine "Thor" a state order is needed. And about the problems with it from the side of the central bodies of the Navy, the article also says.
      Quote: ROSS 42
      This:
      a priori should not have been the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet ...

      Why not? As a parquet cruiser, "Moskva" fully met the requirements.
      You just don’t need to drive out the missile cruiser-carrier of the DD air defense system alone. "Moskva" is an integral part of the naval formation, its "long arm" in terms of anti-ship missiles and missiles, for the sake of which the rest was donated. Therefore, RRC without an escort should not be used.
      With the same success, you can tear out a single S-400 division from the air defense system - and put it practically on the front line, without cover and information support.
      1. +1
        6 July 2022 12: 45
        And this question is answered in the article: the lack of desire of the fleet.

        Then you need to ask the officials in the fleet - shoulder straps do not press? Or we have a fleet on its own, the commander-in-chief of the Kremlin - on its own and in general in the army, not one-man command, but anarchy.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Why not? As a parquet cruiser, "Moskva" fully met the requirements.

        That is why a forty-year-old veteran, during the construction of which materials from the times of Tsar Peas were used, could not and should not have experienced this fate .. It is not poverty that destroys the Black Sea Fleet, but mismanagement and connivance, various offshore frauds and unwillingness to give money to the army.
        Currently, existing materials and fire extinguishing systems are OBLIGED to ensure the incombustibility of a warship.
        *****
        It is hard to see how some officials elevate military parades to the rank of a cult, neglecting the presence of parade equipment in the troops. There are personalities in the history of the country, without whom there would be no: space - without S.P. Korolev, the atomic bomb - without I.V. Kurchatov ... When will a person appear in Russia who will be able to revive the country and will help the Russian economy achieve the proper heights? When will this servility, servility, and fraud disappear in the country?
  9. +5
    6 July 2022 06: 40
    Finally, adequate people write about the realities. Thanks to the author for a good article
  10. +5
    6 July 2022 07: 11
    The article is good, it is a pity that those who make decisions will not read it, and even if they do read it, it is not a fact that they will perceive it correctly. In general, it will remain a good article.
  11. -3
    6 July 2022 07: 34
    For radar cm and mm-x ranges, lasers are just needed, like the latest prototypes. A 30mm guided projectile is more and more expensive than a laser salvo. But the result is the same
  12. 0
    6 July 2022 07: 53
    "Redoubt" (all-aspect shelling, the largest affected area and canalization, but failure to hit maneuvering targets

    How's that?
    1. +5
      6 July 2022 12: 31
      This is due to the lack of a radio correction channel for missiles on Project 20380. The 9M96 rocket flies a marching section (up to 30-40 km) along the trajectory set at the start with the seeker turned off. The GOS is turned on at the final stage at the calculated point (about 10-12 km to the target) and must detect with its ARGSN a target, which should be in the scanning area of ​​the ARGSN. If the target during the flight of the missile of the marching section changed the flight path, the ARGSN will not detect it in the ARGSN scanning area and there will be a miss. To solve this problem, the S-350 air defense system has a correction channel that can make changes to the missile's flight path on the march section, but someone "did not consider it necessary" to install the appropriate equipment on the corvettes.
      1. +1
        6 July 2022 17: 32
        Quote: Cympak
        This is due to the lack of a radio correction channel for missiles on project 20380.

        I understand, thanks. Yes, now I remember, this was mentioned earlier in Klimov's articles.

        Quote: Cympak
        but someone "did not consider it necessary" to install the appropriate equipment on the corvettes.

        Wonderland.
      2. 0
        6 July 2022 21: 18
        Quote: Cympak
        This is due to the lack of a radio correction channel for missiles on Project 20380. The 9M96 rocket flies a marching section (up to 30-40 km) along the trajectory set at the start with the seeker turned off. The GOS is turned on at the final stage at the calculated point (about 10-12 km to the target) and must detect with its ARGSN a target, which should be in the scanning area of ​​the ARGSN.

        The range of destruction of maneuvering targets is determined by the energy of the missile defense system, and not by the correction channel. In terms of energy, maneuvering targets, IMO, 9M96E are guaranteed to work out and a range of about 20 km. Without a correction channel, the maximum range of the 9M96E SAM is 28 km, capture immediately after launch.
        1. +2
          6 July 2022 22: 08
          What missiles? With what type and laws of guidance? Not a single modern ARGSN sees at 28 km.
          Without a correction channel, the missile will fly to the GOS disclosure point, but there is no target in the search area, turned away. And although the rocket has a lot of energy left, it self-destructs without finding a target
          1. -1
            7 July 2022 23: 16
            Quote: Cympak
            What missiles? With what type and laws of guidance?

            Yes, any missiles with any type and laws of guidance. If the target maneuvers vigorously, then the energy of the missile defense system is the main and decisive one.
            Quote: Cympak
            Not a single modern ARGSN sees at 28 km.

            Yes, what are you? 9B-1103M-350 - at least 40 km along the EPR 5 m ^ 2.
            Quote: Cympak
            Without a correction channel, the missile will fly to the GOS disclosure point, but there is no target in the search area, turned away. And although the rocket has a lot of energy left, it self-destructs without finding a target

            Any ARGSN provides target acquisition immediately after launch. And after the capture, no corrections are needed anymore.
            1. +1
              8 July 2022 19: 44
              Answer from the author M. Klimov:

              MK: Tell me, do you also play cards like here now? Have you ever met a candelabra? What is the sexual ratio of 9B-1103M-350 FIRSTLY to 96 and 100, and the second - TAKING INTO ACCOUNT TYPICAL PURPOSE (PKR) with an EPR 50 TIMES LESS than that indicated by YOU?
              1. 0
                8 July 2022 21: 16
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Answer from the author M. Klimov:

                MK: Tell me, do you also play cards like here now? Have you ever met a candelabra? What is the sexual ratio of 9B-1103M-350 FIRSTLY to 96 and 100, and the second - TAKING INTO ACCOUNT TYPICAL PURPOSE (PKR) with an EPR 50 TIMES LESS than that indicated by YOU?

                There are no EPR requirements in my discussion with Cympak. We are talking about the maximum range of destruction of missiles with ARGS without radio correction.
                1. +1
                  9 July 2022 23: 28
                  Answer from the author M. Klimov:

                  There is nothing technical at all in YOUR discussion (except for a few ADVERTISING and figures taken out of the general context), only one example - was the GOS DISCLOSURE parameter in these advertisements at least given somewhere? And this is one of the key factors, incl. and in matters of RK!
  13. 0
    6 July 2022 08: 13
    A serious deterrent here is the complexity and cost of the chassis.

    The problem is serious, but one of the cash solutions is the transportation of ABMs by tank trawls. While the tank unit is operating under its own power, the trawls will ensure the change of positions of the modules under the cover of Shells and Beeches.
    1. +1
      6 July 2022 11: 46
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      The problem is serious, but one of the cash solutions is the transportation of ABMs by tank trawls.

      The problem is not the chassis. The problem is that ABM is not. The article directly states that these modules are an initiative development, they are supplied only for export, the RF Ministry of Defense did not order them.
  14. +3
    6 July 2022 08: 24
    In general, Klimov and Timokhin turned out to be right in everything, and a very bad conclusion follows from this. Wreckership and sabotage comes from the very top, and until this top changes, there will be no real development.
  15. +3
    6 July 2022 08: 54
    In general, the article is not bad. But the "warship" hurts the eye. The ship - it is already a combat one, no need for taftalogies.
    1. +1
      6 July 2022 19: 26
      Quote: TermNachTER
      But the "warship" hurts the eye. The ship - it is already combat

      What about the training ship?

      Quote: TermNachTER
      no need for taphtalogies.

      Interesting word.
      1. 0
        6 July 2022 21: 08
        And the training ship, as a rule, also has weapons, albeit weak, because the ship. As for taftologies or taftology, I didn’t read such pearls here)))
    2. +1
      6 July 2022 22: 15
      Stop talking nonsense.
      "Ship" means that the crew is from the military and the flag of the Navy.
      "Ship" - a mixture of military and civilian and the flag of the auxiliary fleet.

      Why are you talking nonsense all the time, for what purpose?
      1. -1
        6 July 2022 22: 24
        Is a passenger liner not a ship?))))
        1. 0
          9 July 2022 23: 11
          Drink some nootropics. Your brain is not working.

          There will be a military crew and the flag of the Navy - there will be a ship.
          1. 0
            9 July 2022 23: 19
            And an auxiliary ship, but under a civilian flag - how is it ??
  16. +2
    6 July 2022 09: 07
    It was Supranovich (who occupied a key position in the structure of the "single customer" of the Ministry of Defense - DOGOZ) who was the key "blocker" of work on the "sea Tor"

    This is direct sabotage.
    The defendants must be deprived of titles, awards and pensions for service.
    The shame of the officer corps, who sold honor and conscience.
    Tear off shoulder straps in front of the ranks.
  17. +2
    6 July 2022 09: 51
    The repair of the aircraft-carrying cruiser Kuznetsov is in full swing. Of the four "Dagger" air defense systems, two are left, they will be restored, although they have become obsolete. Instead of the "Dirk" sign, they put Shells, but only 4 pcs. RK "Ustinov" was modernized, the ancients left the air defense system! BOD "Chabanenko" air defense systems leave the old ones, they plan to repair, modernize the air defense system, they do not plan yet. 1155 projects are being modernized at the Pacific Fleet, the air defense system is not being changed. At the BF, skr 11540 was repaired, the old air defense systems were left.
    1. +1
      6 July 2022 11: 55
      Quote: huntsman650
      Of the four "Dagger" air defense systems, two are left, they will be restored, although they have become obsolete.

      With "Daggers" in general, there is some kind of misunderstanding.
      On the one hand, it is very likely that they no longer make new Kinzhal complexes. Because the same "Kulakov" during the modernization did not receive a "healed" one even during the construction of the bow "Dagger".
      On the other hand, the Navy is holding on with all its might to the old "Daggers" with their monstrous drum launchers, weighing like an army "Thor" machine assembled. And he does not want to order some new "Kinzhal-2" instead of them - the same "Tor", but with normal UVP with individual cells and smaller AP.
      Although, the reasons for the Navy's reluctance seem to be disclosed in the article.
      1. +2
        6 July 2022 14: 30
        The office, it seems like a barrier, 1,3 billion are sewn for them in the SF, they sawed it off during the repair of the air defense system. There are no new daggers, the old ones are assembled from several. El.baza old, large instrumentation, the newest 1992. As I understand it, there is nothing to put, so far, there are no developments, and in the uravs everyone is even. It also comes down to finances.
        1. +3
          6 July 2022 22: 17
          As I understand it, there is nothing to put, so far, there are no developments, and in the uravs everyone is even.


          Here. This is the reason. Not money.
  18. 0
    6 July 2022 10: 53
    I am an amateur, I apologize in advance for inexperience or ignorance of the intricacies of the subject. Question. Why can't TOR be used together with the "derivation-air defense" complex? As far as I know, the relative cheapness of 57 mm projectiles (perhaps even guided ones) makes it possible to deal with a massive UAV raid at ranges up to 10 km, and in height up to 4,5 km.
  19. +3
    6 July 2022 11: 04
    June 18, two anti-ship missiles "Harpoon" in the area of ​​\u2b\uXNUMXbabout. The rescue tug of the Auxiliary Fleet "Vasily Bekh" was sunk with the autonomous combat module (ABM) of the Tor-MXNUMXKM air defense system installed on it.

    And there definitely was an ABM, and not the usual army "Thor", which the rescuer delivered to the island?
    In addition, as combat experience has shown, it is not enough to have not only 8, but also 16 missiles in the ammunition ready for battle. The overwhelming majority of Thors in Karabakh was lost precisely after the ammunition load was used up.

    The vast majority of Thors in Karabakh was lost due to the lack of an air defense system. The Armenians did not have either a sufficient number of forces, or an understanding that single air defense systems were targets. The air defense systems are designed to work as part of a single system, where the sectors of destruction of the complexes overlap, the self-propelled guns and combat vehicles that have gone to reload are covered by others, and the launchers of large systems in theory reload "in a circle" - so that the complex always has missiles ready for firing (plus there is cover from neighbors).
    1. +1
      6 July 2022 12: 48
      The air defense systems are designed to work as part of a single system, where the sectors of destruction of the complexes overlap, the self-propelled guns and combat vehicles that have gone to reload are covered by others

      Yes, that of "Thor". that "Shell" is a sector of fire in which an air defense system guidance station operates. They alone cannot repel a simultaneous massive attack from different directions
      1. +2
        6 July 2022 14: 43
        Quote: Cympak
        Yes, that of "Thor". that "Shell" is a sector of fire in which an air defense system guidance station operates.

        And they all have. One of the main complaints about the same S-300F is that one "tit" has a working sector of only 90 degrees, so at 1164 you can simultaneously work on targets only in a quarter of the horizon, and at 1144 - in half the horizon. And if a coordinated raid starts on 1164 from two sides at 180 or three at 120 degrees, then after hitting targets in the working sector in one direction, you may not have time to transfer the working sector to another direction - because this requires a mechanical turn of the entire AP.
        Quote: Cympak
        They alone cannot repel a simultaneous massive attack from different directions

        But for this, an air defense system is needed - in order to work with several BMs or air defense systems under a single control. smile
      2. 0
        6 July 2022 19: 05
        By the way, the inclusion of the 9M100 missile with ARGSN in the Torah ammunition load, which receives target designation from the surveillance radar, will ensure all-aspect shelling of targets (regardless of the sector of operation of the tracking and guidance radar) without restrictions on the channel on the target. Those. BC needs a mix of 3/4 RK-guided missiles 1/4 for ARGSN missiles
        1. +1
          6 July 2022 19: 32
          Quote: Cympak
          inclusion of 9M100 missiles with ARGSN in the Torah ammunition load

          Interestingly, we are doing at least some work to create an analogue of RIM-116? ARGSN - good, but expensive.
        2. 0
          6 July 2022 21: 09
          Quote: Cympak
          By the way, the inclusion of the 9M100 missile with ARGSN in the Torah ammunition load, which receives target designation from the surveillance radar, will ensure all-aspect shelling of targets (regardless of the sector of operation of the tracking and guidance radar) without restrictions on the channel on the target. Those. BC needs a mix of 3/4 RK-guided missiles 1/4 for ARGSN missiles

          It won't work.
    2. 0
      6 July 2022 21: 11
      Quote: Alexey RA
      The vast majority of Thors in Karabakh were lost due to the lack of an air defense system.

      No, the author is right about this. The Armenians had a very small stock of missiles for the Torah. This stock quickly ran out.
    3. 0
      7 July 2022 05: 08
      Quote: Alexey RA
      And there definitely was an ABM, and not the usual army "Thor", which the rescuer delivered to the island?

      Even if ABM, then its dead / blind zone was simply huge compared to patrol ships.
  20. +1
    6 July 2022 11: 36
    Fast and cheap is not about Russia. The fact that the moles were massively fired, and not tied up, means that they could have passed even higher ones.
  21. +2
    6 July 2022 11: 55
    The article is as long as a "dog song")).
    As is customary among the British: "the best way to destroy the enemy's fleet is to prevent it from forming up," which the British successfully do with the hands of Russian traitors in the structure of the Navy and the United Shipbuilding Corporation - STATE! I would have spent 7 years in prison with great pleasure, so that later I could lie on some island for the rest of my life and drink Cuba Libre to the point of cirrhosis of the liver! Actually, many bureaucrats, apparently, have similar plans. So just going to jail is not an option. We need the death penalty. I'm not sure that the current government of the Russian Federation is able to quickly respond to changes, make tough personnel decisions, in general, this "strange military operation" opened up so many abscesses that you don't know what to grab onto.
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. The comment was deleted.
  24. 0
    6 July 2022 14: 43
    Excellent analysis of the situation. Ground installation cannot be used on marine vessels due to the specifics.
  25. 0
    6 July 2022 15: 47
    By the way, it is known that the Izhevsk "Kupol" is working on the modernization of the "Tor" air defense system
    According to V. Kartashov ("Military Acceptance")

    - new lightweight body
    - double ammo
    - new software

    National Defense also writes about the deep modernization of the Tor air defense system
    https://oborona.ru/product/zhurnal-nacionalnaya-oborona/zrk-semejstva-tor-vchera-segodnya-zavtra-42689.shtml
    Undoubtedly, the finally completed work on the deep modernization of the transmitting and receiving systems of the complex, which, in addition to increasing combat capabilities (an increase in the speeds and heights of targets hit by 30% and 40%, respectively, a significant decrease in the near zone), will lead to the long-awaited improving the operational and reliability characteristics of the complex. With the transition to a “solid body”, their service life and reliability will increase significantly.

    Well, the culmination, of course, should be an increase in one and a half times the number of simultaneously fired targets, a decrease in the RCS of detected targets by 4-5 times, an expansion of the sector of simultaneously hit targets to 90 degrees, which will practically bury such a concept for air defense systems as a "dead funnel" and an increase a quarter of the range.

    It can be assumed that the modernized "Thor" will have the following performance characteristics

    - the number of simultaneously fired targets - 6

    - firing sector 90 degrees

    - range of destruction - up to 16-20 km

    - defeat height - up to 14 km

    - maximum target speed - 1300 m / s

    - the number of missiles - 32 pcs.

    There was also information about the development of a new small-sized missile for the Tor air defense system to combat UAVs.
  26. 0
    6 July 2022 16: 22
    Respect and Respect to the Author!!! Another question that should have been raised in the article: How to make sure that the backbones in the Moscow Region, who should be responsible for urgently making the right decisions, would be responsible for each of them, with their own skin ???
    1. +3
      6 July 2022 18: 50
      How to make sure that the backbones in the Moscow Region, who should be responsible for urgently making the right decisions, would become responsible for each of them, with their own skin

      This is the hardest part. Unfortunately, the fundamental principle in MO is cover your ass first. And as a consequence of this principle: look not for solutions, but for ways to escape in order to avoid any responsibility.
  27. +1
    6 July 2022 18: 59
    Good evening, dear Author. Your article is read with bitterness, mindful of how many years you have identified the problem of naval air defense. And thunder struck, but the peasant, that is, the backs in the chairs, did not cross themselves. In light of this universal shame - the sinking of the Black Sea Fleet Flagship and the tug, the death of personnel, what do you see as the optimal air defense, according to projects, 22800-20385-22350?
    Personally, my opinion is that "Karakurt", which is 20385, it is necessary to add displacements, 20800 to 1350 tons (which will still allow it to pass through internal channels), but will allow it to accommodate both air defense and anti-aircraft defense. And 20385 is at least 3000 tons. What do you think about this?
  28. 0
    6 July 2022 19: 40
    A wonderful popular science article, which is now scarce on topwar. But unfortunately the author, who undoubtedly has a deep knowledge of the topic, spread his thoughts along the tree, towards the middle of the story. And by the end of the article it was not possible to understand what it was about, who was to blame and what to do?
    I think that the volume of one article is not enough to discuss such a serious issue.
    It may be necessary to first systematize the tasks facing the air defense, and then consider possible ways to implement them, for various branches of the military, in various ways, with performance characteristics and examples.
    Then compare them with analogues of foreign colleagues and, on the basis of this, offer your own version of the Autonomous Combat Module with excellent characteristics.
  29. +1
    6 July 2022 20: 39
    Yes-ah-ah-ah-, well-zh-zh-zh.

    June 18, two anti-ship missiles "Harpoon" in the area of ​​\u2b\uXNUMXbabout. The rescue tug of the Auxiliary Fleet "Vasily Bekh" was sunk with the autonomous combat module (ABM) of the Tor-MXNUMXKM air defense system installed on it.


    Was Thor on Beha then?

    Initially, "Thor" had an overload of missiles from a transport-loading vehicle (TZM) with cassettes of 4 missiles (2x4 = 8 in total).


    Initially, Thor had an individual loading of missiles into the launcher. Loading with a "cassette" of 4 missiles appeared in the Tor-M1 with the replacement of the launcher with a transport and launch container.

    The decision is technically absolutely correct, but at the same time, the possibility of using the old 331 missiles (located in large numbers in the ammunition load) was lost.


    "Old" missiles will not fit into the Tor-M2 in size.

    The claims of the representative of JSC "KBP" were reduced to a "free interpretation" by the speaker of a number of provisions of physics and radar (i.e., he had no objections to the essence and results of the work of "Tor" during these tests).


    What were those claims? Curious. From Kartashov's answer:
    In response, Mr. Kartashov, in a rather emotional form, made claims to the representative of JSC "KBP" on the real field results of the "Shell".

    It follows that the objections were on the merits.

    During the discussion of the report of Mr. Kartashov at IMDS-19, shortcomings (and serious ones) were indicated, but the speaker perceived the need to eliminate them, let's say, "without enthusiasm"

    And the Dome has always been like that. Including because of this, the Aerospace Forces took the Shell.

    And here a very serious question arises - what about a full-fledged "sea Tor" and what should it be, taking into account the experience of hostilities?

    None. Tor - SAM air defense SV. Everything else is a palliative.

    the need for a significant increase in the far border and the zone of destruction of the complex.


    This is a meaningless requirement without specifying the target type. In Torah, RK radar guidance is used as the main one, and the maximum range of effective destruction of anti-ship missiles (depending on its dimensions and vulnerability coefficient) is limited by it and lies within 8-12 km. An increase in the range of missiles will only increase the range of destruction of large targets such as, for example, the B-52.

    The problem of the far border and the zone of destruction of the air defense system became extremely acute during the NWO, below are screenshots from the video of the Bayraktar UAV, which has been conducting long-term surveillance of the island. Serpentine and located outside the defeat of the Tor-M2 air defense system


    Didn't get up. Beeches are used in NWO. "Bayraktar" can observe without entering the zone of destruction of Bukov, but there is no sense in such observation, except for the picture on YouTube.

    The obvious solution is the integration of "Tor" and "Reduta", i.e., the introduction into the "Tor" of the possibility of using not only 331 and 338 missiles, but also 96 and 100.


    It is nonsense.
    Firstly, even 9M100 does not fit into Thor in terms of dimensions, not to mention 9M96.
    Second, the
    the presence in the ammunition of a small amount of 100 and especially 96 UR provides all-angle


    does not provide versatility. RES Tor provide target designation only in the SNR sector. And the frequency range of the Torah RES does not coincide with the frequency range of the 9M96 and 9M100 correction lines.

    With the surveillance radar available from the Tor-M2 air defense system (with an update rate of 1 s)

    1 s is not the rate of updating information in the Torah surveillance radar, but the time for reviewing space in three partials (12 degrees in elevation). The review in all eight partials (32 degrees in elevation) requires 3 s (three antenna turns).


    the use of 9M96 missiles for the same "Bayraktar" may well be ensured even at the maximum operating distances of its observation station (about 50 km).


    1. ZUR 9M96 is not used for Bayraktar.
    2. SOC Torah will not see Bayraktar at a distance of 50 km and cannot issue any target designation.
    3. The maximum declared range for the 9M96E missile without radio correction is 28 km (“Resource”).

    However, returning to the Torah, today the above is only “good wishes”, because the work on the Torah-FM was blocked by the customer (Ministry of Defense).


    Well, looking from the couch, maybe the Ministry of Defense is right. It is not clear why such a Thor is needed.

    When implementing the "Decision ..." of 2015, even in a minimal form - replacing the old Osa-M (A) air defense systems, we would not have received shame with the death of the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet - the Moskva missile cruiser.


    No way! The photo clearly shows that the Osa-M (A) is in a marching, and not in a combat position. What difference does it make what an air defense system costs if it is in a traveling, and not a combat position when attacking a ship?

    This is not an exaggeration, the start of work on the "Arctic" air defense system "Tor-M2DT" was given simultaneously with the "Tor-FM" (but the latter was immediately "braked") at the end of 2015, and the first division of the new air defense system "Tor-M2DT" of the Ministry of Defense received at the end of 2018.


    So DT is land, everything is clear with it, that's why they did it quickly. And FM is something like that. How can you do something like that?

    Moreover, with the provision of the use of a "mixed" composition of missiles - and 331 series, and new 338, and promising light missiles, and (!) "Redutov" 100 and 96 missiles.

    Tie up with fantasy.


    There are very few highly mobile all-weather (with radar) air defense systems in the world, and what exists, for example, the Rapira, has clearly insufficient performance characteristics.

    It's right. "Shooting" FAR Ku and Ka ranges for air defense systems are not able to do there.

    Accordingly, the issue of counter-battery combat and such an important component of it as artillery reconnaissance radar is extremely acute (the situation with which in the RF Armed Forces, to put it mildly, leaves much to be desired). At the same time, the SAM firing radars themselves have sufficiently high characteristics to detect targets such as a howitzer or MLRS projectile, a mine, the issue is to refine special software for calculating their trajectories and determining the launch (shot) point.


    Artillery reconnaissance radars are not shooting, but surveillance radars.

    For example, those indicated in the article “Development of artillery reconnaissance through the use of an intelligent network control system” (magazine of the General Staff “Military Thought”, No. 12, 2021, highlighted in red) have an exclusively stationary mode of operation, and the detection distances of projectiles are such that the radars are forced to work deliberately in the zone of confident fire destruction of the enemy.


    That's right - in the zone of fire destruction of the enemy. This is a consequence of the principle of operation of the artillery reconnaissance radar.

    The Tor-M2 air defense system showed not only high efficiency, but also extremely necessary “promising capabilities”: as a means of counter-battery combat


    What kind of nonsense about counter-battery combat?

    It is necessary to accelerate the development of a full-fledged naval self-defense air defense system.

    So first decide on the concept of this air defense system, determine its purpose (range, types of air defense systems, raid intensity, building air defense systems in the air raid, number of air defense systems in the air raid), the composition of the RES and weapons, determine its interaction with other air defense systems and defense means in a single system, about which this article does not say anything at all. This article is fully consistent with what my father told me for a long time about the Navy as a customer: "They are trying to cram the unpushable."
    1. +1
      6 July 2022 22: 42
      Answer from the author of the article M. Klimov:

      Was Thor on Beha then?


      MK: WAS, and with a very high probability - worked at that moment

      Initially, Thor had an individual loading of missiles into the launcher. Loading with a "cassette" of 4 missiles appeared in the Tor-M1 with the replacement of the launcher with a transport and launch container.

      MK: I agree

      "Old" missiles will not fit into the Tor-M2 in size.


      MK: ONCE AGAIN - TZM. Do you speak Russian? Do you know what TZM is?

      What were those claims? Curious.


      MK: Kartaov said that they "learned to hold the beam so well that they hold it above the very water" - this is what was taken literally, then there were even more fun "fantasies on the subject of physics and radar."
      From the KBP was G.O ... Choking with laughter, he began to ask Kartashov questions, such as "how do you measure the beam ???" "are you aware of the level of 0,7" "and about UBL ..."
      Kartashov SIMPLY DID NOT UNDERSTAND that he was being asked ("the brave cavalryman" - the ex-customer "does not need this"), but apparently he felt that he was being "used", so he began to yell at O. - already according to the results of the "carrot" tests.

      And the Dome has always been like that. Including because of this, the Aerospace Forces took the Shell.


      MK:
      I don’t know how “always”, Kartashov, yes, f ... th to the whole head, - they tell him (not only me) that the mass of the AP is too large, he yells that they have "a cool EP !!!" That nonsense that he carried on the "Positive" will not be given here.
      Only here the “Dome” is far from being from Kartashov, and the same co-author of it on a patent (“the same one”) has an opposite (and technically justified) opinion with him on a number of issues.
      And the assessment of the VIM on Syria by Thor and Shell (with which many were "bombed") was REAL.

      None. Tor - SAM air defense SV. Everything else is a palliative.


      MK: don't talk nonsense - it hurts. The same Navy initially stared at Thor and NIEM, even when the Dagger "walked under the table" (often falling), Thor in Feodosia was already shooting down the NLC at WWI over the sea

      This is a meaningless requirement without specifying the target type. In Torah, RK radar guidance is used as the main one, and the maximum range of effective destruction of anti-ship missiles (depending on its dimensions and vulnerability coefficient) is limited by it and lies within 8-12 km. An increase in the range of missiles will only increase the range of destruction of large targets such as, for example, the B-52.


      MK: the article is not a TTZ;), however, one of the targets was completely identified - "Bayraktar"

      Didn't get up. Beeches are used in NWO. "Bayraktar" can observe without entering the zone of destruction of Bukov, but there is no sense in such observation, except for the picture on YouTube.


      MK: Chernobaevka says something else, but that's not the point - but the fact that where there are no Bukovs, "tractors" AMAZING (giving TSU arte) - a good example
      and MGH 317 SAMs are significantly more than 96 - with all the consequences - especially for ships of limited displacement

      This is stupidity. Firstly, even the 9M100 does not fit into the Tor in terms of dimensions, not to mention the 9M96.


      MK: YOU are talking nonsense here, and as for "does not fit", the answer is simple - WHICH "Thor" ???
      for it suddenly turns out that "somewhere it fits completely!

      does not provide versatility. RES Tor provide target designation only in the SNR sector. And the frequency range of the Torah RES does not coincide with the frequency range of the correction line 9M96 and 9M100


      MK: PROVIDES
      The accuracy of the "reviewer" (!) Is enough for the control center.
      RK - by regular means of P-R, the antennas for this are very compact (in one of the articles they cited their code)

      1 s is not the rate of updating information in the Torah surveillance radar, but the time for reviewing space in three partials (12 degrees in elevation). The review in all eight partials (32 degrees in elevation) requires 3 s (three antenna turns).


      MK: these are old data, but I won’t look for new ones in the open media - because the FACT is precisely that the reviewer is able to issue ON THE SHIP (!) with OWN REVIEW CC for 96 (100) with a pace of 1s

      1. ZUR 9M96 is not used for Bayraktar.
      2. SOC Torah will not see Bayraktar at a distance of 50 km and cannot issue any target designation.
      3. The maximum declared range for the 9M96E missile without radio correction is 28 km (“Resource”).


      MK:
      1. A SHOULD be applied - and in terms of its performance characteristics it completely ensures this
      2. See the video from the Serpentine - even removing the "tractors" for 30 kim gives a lot - starting from the impossibility of adjusting the artillery fire + to "maximum" there is a "reviewer" of the ship
      3. It is a crime to throw out such a missile without an RK. RK MUST be!

      Well, looking from the couch, maybe the Ministry of Defense is right. It is not clear why such a Thor is needed.


      MK: YOU are "quite that"? "Moscow" was drowned, DESO - did not risk a "belly on missiles"? Yes, indeed, "why do we need Thor?" (even in the limited declared form) - "there will be no war" ...

      No way! The photo clearly shows that the Osa-M (A) is in a marching, and not in a combat position. What difference does it make what an air defense system costs if it is in a traveling, and not a combat position when attacking a ship?


      MK: And why did YOU decide that it was working?

      So DT is land, everything is clear with it, that's why they did it quickly. And FM is something like that. How can you do something like that?


      MK: Aren't you tired of talking nonsense? - it hurts! "How" - just like they did the "Osu-M" (SEA) almost simultaneously with the land "Osa", and the old NIEM frames, although, alas, far from complete, have been preserved

      Tie up with fantasy.


      MK: couch fantasy here is YOU, but the fact that I have not just logical conclusions (which was already 3 years ago) but the REQUIREMENTS OF A REAL FIGHT

      It's right. "Shooting" FAR Ku and Ka ranges for air defense systems are not able to do there.


      MK: hmmm what a big uncle - but he believes in fairy tales ...

      Artillery reconnaissance radars are not shooting, but surveillance radars.


      MK: we are talking about TECHNICAL PARAMETERS - and what is TECHNICALLY needed for this task for an air defense radar is provided precisely by firing locks!

      That's right - in the zone of fire destruction of the enemy. This is a consequence of the principle of operation of the artillery reconnaissance radar.


      MK: don't talk nonsense, it hurts - this is a consequence of the limitation (or rather non-optimality) of their technical characteristics!

      What kind of nonsense about counter-battery combat?


      MK: Monsieur, YOU ask this somewhere on the street in Donetsk (after shelling), YOU will be "visibly explained" there

      So first decide on the concept of this air defense system, determine its purpose (range, types of air defense systems, raid intensity, building air defense systems in the air raid, number of air defense systems in the air raid), the composition of the RES and weapons, determine its interaction with other air defense systems and defense means in a single system, about which this article does not say anything at all.


      MK: monsieur, did YOU misunderstand anything? This is an ARTICLE, in a PUBLIC RESOURCE. TCHK.
      And what YOU say is at least a technical study / engineering note, at least + TTZ ... But I DO NOT INTEND to discuss this side of the issue publicly.

      This article is fully consistent with what my father told me for a long time about the Navy as a customer: "They are trying to cram the unpushable."


      MK: YOUR father loved to see "lie on the stove" (and he treated physics ... "like Kartashov")
      because a number of major domestic experts have a completely different opinion on this (although the "Kartashovs" "get under their feet" and the Supranovichs crap (this is not only and not so much about the Torah))
      1. 0
        7 July 2022 22: 53
        From Comet

        [quote] MK: WAS, and with a very high probability - worked at that moment [/ quote]
        That is, it was useless. What is it about.

        [quote] MK: ONCE AGAIN - TZM. Do you speak Russian? Do you know what TZM is? [/ Quote]
        Old missiles can be stuffed into the TPM, but the TPM cannot launch missiles. What is the point of the old missiles on the TZM, if they cannot be launched from the TZM, but they do not climb into the BM Tor-M2?

        [quote] MK: Kartaov said that they "learned to hold the beam so well that they hold it above the water itself" - this is what was taken verbatim, then there were even more fun "fantasies on the subject of physics and radar." From the KBP was G.O ... Choking with laughter, he began to ask Kartashov questions, such as "how do you measure the beam ???" "and you know about the level of 0,7" "but about UBL ..." Kartashov JUST DID NOT UNDERSTAND what they were asking him ("the brave cavalryman" - the ex-customer "does not need this"), but apparently he felt that he was "used" , therefore, he began to yell at O. - already according to the results of the "carrot" tests. [/ Quote]
        Well, it's all business. The radar does not have a beam, but a DNA.

        [quote] And the assessment of the VIM on Syria by Thor and Shell (with which many were "bombed") was REAL. [/ quote]
        This is a bloated one episode, which is strange to make generalizations, especially since it is already 2022 in the yard.

        [quote]MK: don't talk nonsense - it hurts. The same Navy initially stared at Thor and NIEM, even when the Dagger "went under the table on foot" (often falling), Thor in Feodosia was already shooting down the NLC at WWI over the sea [/ quote]
        Indulged and forgotten. No Thor appeared on the ships of the Navy. He is land. And the Dagger has only ZUR in common with Thor.

        [quote] MK: the article is not TTZ;), however, one of the goals was quite designated - "Bayraktar" [/ quote]
        It's clear. Thor uses command guidance. For command guidance, with an increase in the range to the target, the guidance error along the lateral coordinates (in the Cartesian CS) linearly increases, respectively, the probability of hitting the target decreases. Therefore, if you require an increase in the range to defeat Bayraktar, then this range must be justified by calculations for a given probability of defeat. Otherwise it's air shaking.

        [quote] MK: Chernobaevka says something else, but that's not the point - but the fact that where there are no Bukovs, "tractors" AMAZING (giving TSU arte) - a good example of Snake [/ quote]
        SOU Buk-M3 can interact with BM Tor-M2. This is a matter of organizing air defense. And the absurdity of the requirement to increase the range of destruction of the Tor missile defense system while maintaining the type of guidance and angular accuracy of the CHP must be very seriously justified. You definitely can't do it on a forum.

        [quote] and MGH 317 SAMs are significantly more than 96 - with all the consequences - especially for ships of limited displacement [/ quote]
        It is obvious. But if Bayraktar is among the targets, then the 96th is no good.

        [quote] MK: YOU are talking nonsense here, but as for "does not fit", the answer is simple - WHICH "Thor" ??? [/ quote]
        The 100th will not fit into any of the existing Tors.

        [quote] because it suddenly turns out that "it fits somewhere! [/ quote]
        What and where does it fit?

        [quote] MK: PROVIDES
        The accuracy of the "reviewer" (!) Is enough for the control center.
        [/ Quote]

        And what is the accuracy of determining the coordinates of the target for the Torah-M2 SOC? And what is the accuracy of determining the coordinates of the target in the S-350E in the precise target tracking mode? The 96s are used in the S-350E only in the precise target tracking mode.

        [quote] RK - by regular means of P-R, the antennas for this are very compact (in one of the articles they cited their code) [/ quote]
        On the Torah, the transmission of commands to the SAM is carried out by the SNR. There is nothing more on the Torah to transmit information to the SAM. And the range of the 96's correction line does not match the range of the CHP Thor.

        [quote] MK: this is old data, but I won’t look for new ones in the open media - because the FACT is precisely that the reviewer is able to give out ON THE SHIP (!) With OWN REVIEW CC for 96 (100) with a pace of 1s [/ quote ]
        For Tor-M2 - 1 s is not the rate of updating information in the surveillance radar, but the time for reviewing space in three partials (12 degrees in elevation). A survey in all eight partials (32 degrees in elevation) takes 3 s (three antenna turns). This is not a phase-controlled radar, but a frequency-controlled one. This radar is "a hundred years old at lunchtime." At the same time, a mark from one target appears in it in different partials during the review, and this radar accumulates 3 marks in three turns of the antenna (144 s), and then parses them. What is written in open sources.

        [quote]MK:
        1. A SHOULD be applied - and in terms of its performance characteristics it completely ensures this
        [/ Quote]

        That is, when you "design" an air defense system, do you proceed from what you should? No wonder nothing works in the Navy. 9M96 according to performance characteristics should not and does not ensure the defeat of Bayraktar.

        [quote]2. See the video from the Serpentine - even removing the "tractors" for 30 kim gives a lot - starting with the impossibility of adjusting the artillery fire + to "maximum" there is a "reviewer" of the ship [/ quote]
        Buk-M2 / 3 will completely drive them over 40 km.

        [quote]3. It is a crime to throw out such a missile without a rocket launcher. [/quote]
        Well, what are you! Capture immediately after launch is a standard feature of any ARGSN.

        [quote] RK MUST be! [quote]
        Any ARGSN does not require this. There is RK - good, no RK - we'll manage.

        [quote] Well, looking from the couch, perhaps the Ministry of Defense is right. It is not clear why such a Thor is needed. [/quote]
        Tor- SAM air defense SV, where its place is determined and it copes with everything perfectly and fits, as a complex, into a system of various structure and composition. And on the ship Thor is a palliative.

        [quote]MK: And why did YOU decide that it was working? [quote]
        And what's the difference what kind of air defense system it is if it is not in a combat position. What difference does it make, for what reason this air defense system is not in a combat position?

        [quote]MK: Aren't you tired of smacking nonsense? - it hurts! "How" - just like they did "Osu-M" (SEA) almost simultaneously with the land "Osa", and the old NIEM frames, although, alas, far from complete, have been preserved [quote]
        It was so long ago. And they didn't do it again. The next generation of ground and ship-based air defense systems were different in architecture and design. DT is the same M2 in terms of warhead, with a support system for the Arctic climate. This is the same Tor-M2. And what is the sea Thor?

        [quote] MK: YOU are carrying couch fantasy here, but the fact that I no longer just have logical conclusions (which was already 3 years ago) but the REQUIREMENTS OF A REAL FIGHT[quote]
        Yeah, logical ones - 96th along Bayraktar, “attach” the 100th, increase the range ...

        [quote] MK: hmmm what a big uncle - but he believes in fairy tales ... [quote]
        You see, what a surprise for you - they don’t know how to do “firing” PAR Ku and Ka ranges for air defense systems. Here they can't. If they could, Roland and Crotal and Rapier would be with them. And they all sit on "plates" with a single-channel target. Don't overestimate them. Nothing to do.

        [quote] MK: we are talking about TECHNICAL PARAMETERS - and what is TECHNICALLY necessary for this task for an air defense radar is provided precisely by firing locks! [/quote]
        Not! Artillery reconnaissance radar by design, used ranges and modes of operation - surveillance radars.

        [quote] MMK: do not smack nonsense, it hurts - this is a consequence of the limitation (or rather, non-optimality) of their technical characteristics! [/quote]
        Nope, what they need to detect and track to ensure satisfactory accuracy can be detected while in the reach of the reconnaissance object. No, it is possible out of reach, but only if the type of weapon is known exactly and the accuracy will be very approximate.
        And what is the "non-optimality" of their technical characteristics?

        [quote] MK: monsieur, YOU ask this somewhere on the street in Donetsk (after shelling), YOU will be "visibly explained" there [/ quote]
        I'm talking about nonsense about the idea of ​​\u2b\uXNUMXbusing the SNR Torah-MXNUMX artillery reconnaissance radar. Artillery reconnaissance can be combined with the detection of an air target in a surveillance radar (normal radar, of course). But in the firing range .. - nonsense.

        [quote] MK: monsieur, YOU did not confuse anything? This is an ARTICLE, in a PUBLIC RESOURCE. TCHK.
        And what YOU say is at least a technical study / engineering note, at least + TTZ ... But I DO NOT INTEND to discuss this side of the issue publicly. [/quote]

        So from the article it turns out that you are rushing about, trying to make “and a Swiss, and a reaper, and a gambler on the pipe” offering options that do not work or have an unknown result (most likely a negative one). And how can all this be systematized if you do not define the basic things for designing an air defense system?

        [quote] MK: to see "to lie on the stove" YOUR father loved (and treated physics ... "like Kartashov")
        because a number of major domestic experts have a completely different opinion on this (although the "Kartashovs" "get under their feet" and the Supranovichi crap (this is not only and not so much about the Torah)) [/ quote]

        Yep, loved it. And he worked with the SV, and the air defense (of the country and the SV) worked, and the Air Force worked, and he worked with the Navy. And he was on trial. He is from Srednemash. He also said about sailors: “A sea of ​​traditions and a sea of ​​ambitions.”
        1. +1
          8 July 2022 19: 40
          Answer from the author M. Klimov:

          That is, it was useless. What is it about.


          MK: On American resources, it was discussed that they “hit from the back”. Do you speak rush? Or do you also have extra eyes on the back of your head?

          Old missiles can be stuffed into the TPM, but the TPM cannot launch missiles. What is the point of the old missiles on the TZM, if they cannot be launched from the TZM, but they do not climb into the BM Tor-M2?


          MK: Once again - blowing a Speech Russian??? In the article, this is clearly and in Russian written - TZM should shoot (yes, with restrictions due to the same “specificity” of 331 missiles) - and this is a hard lesson from real databases.
          Well, it's all business. The radar does not have a beam, but a DNA.


          MK: Mr. O from KBP had everything about the “ray” (DN) case, but Kartashov had a very vague idea about the real diagrams - he considered it really a “ray” acc. opening.

          This is a bloated one episode, which is strange to make generalizations, especially since it is already 2022 in the yard.


          MK: No need for la-la, - it was not an "episode" but STATISTICS for a significant series of episodes and time. Actually, this is objective physics (both in terms of mm and the costs of the booster scheme (although in some cases it is the only optimal one))
          Indulged and forgotten. No Thor appeared on the ships of the Navy. He is land. And the Dagger has only ZUR in common with Thor.


          MK: Bobik called Dagger, fffse - dead. And about "didn't appear" - how is your vision?

          It's clear. Thor uses command guidance. For command guidance, with an increase in the range to the target, the guidance error along the lateral coordinates (in the Cartesian CS) linearly increases, respectively, the probability of hitting the target decreases. Therefore, if you require an increase in the range to defeat Bayraktar, then this range must be justified by calculations for a given probability of defeat. Otherwise it's air shaking.


          MK: AGAIN - THIS IS A PUBLIC ARTICLE! FERSHTEIN? Or do YOU ​​have "underlined supposedly blindness"? - I clearly wrote that long distances should be provided by 96 missiles (which, unlike the "big" armored one, really provides it (with the Republic of Kazakhstan))

          And the absurdity of the requirement to increase the range of the Tor missile defense while maintaining the type of guidance and angular accuracy of the SNR must be very seriously justified. You definitely can't do it on a forum.


          MK: The requirements for “R-pencils” were sourced from Multiment and Positive, SOTs T (with a number of restrictions on goals - and these nuances are no longer for a public article) fit into these requirements (STS - even more so)

          It is obvious. But if Bayraktar is among the targets, then the 96th is no good.


          MK: Good. She has statistics on targets with low RCS in difficult conditions, and this is good statistics.

          The 100th will not fit into any of the existing Tors.


          MK: I will say this - the question is what do you mean by this

          What and where does it fit?


          MK: As they say - "in the established order"

          And what is the accuracy of determining the coordinates of the target for the Torah-M2 SOC? And what is the accuracy of determining the coordinates of the target in the S-350E in the precise target tracking mode? The 96s are used in the S-350E only in the precise target tracking mode.


          MK: For starters, WHAT GOALS? Yes, in full, this option does not provide the possibility of either the 350 lock or the Mnogoment (there is physics), but the fact that 96 is used from corvettes even from Furke and the Puma “crutch” (the capabilities of which are significantly lower than those of Torovsky) clearly indicates such capabilities

          On the Torah, the transmission of commands to the SAM is carried out by the SNR. There is nothing more on the Torah to transmit information to the SAM. And the range of the 96's correction line does not match the range of the CHP Thor.


          MK: Are you stupid on purpose? I clearly wrote that the RK - not by "Thor means" but by the standard antennas of the RK R (with correction), they are, lettered and very compact

          Tor-M2 - 1 s is not


          MK: Do you speak Russian? On the vast majority of ships “under T” there are Positives - which significantly overlap SOC T, however, “there are nuances” - because on the same 22800 it provides 360, but on 22160 it has a blind sector in the stern - which SOC T will be able to close!

          That is, when you "design" an air defense system, do you proceed from what you should? No wonder nothing works in the Navy. 9M96 according to performance characteristics should not and does not ensure the defeat of Bayraktar.


          MK:
          WORKS - where it was done with straight hands
          The fact that 96 ostensibly "cannot" on the "tractor" is YOUR fabrications

          Buk-M2 / 3 will completely drive them over 40 km.


          MK: WITH APPROPRIATE MGH (See W-1)

          Well, what are you! Capture immediately after launch is a standard feature of any ARGSN.


          MK: Don't talk nonsense, it hurts! Stupidly compare the Dzahv ARGSN and the size of the affected area for targets and missiles

          Any ARGSN does not require this. There is RK - good, no RK - we'll manage.


          MK: Don't talk nonsense, it hurts! The same opening of the new pencils is significantly different from the same 317 (with all the consequences).

          Tor- SAM air defense SV, where its place is determined and it copes with everything perfectly and fits, as a complex, into a system of various structure and composition. And on the ship Thor is a palliative.


          MK: Even on the “land” there are ALREADY significant questions about its appearance. According to the Navy - it is clearly written in the articles and above.

          And what's the difference what kind of air defense system it is if it is not in a combat position. What difference does it make, for what reason this air defense system is not in a combat position?


          MK: "Bobik is dead" - "from old age" + very strict requirements for the preparation of l / s of old air defense systems

          It was so long ago. And they didn't do it again. The next generation of ground and ship-based air defense systems were different in architecture and design. DT is the same M2 in terms of warhead, with a support system for the Arctic climate. This is the same Tor-M2. And what is the sea Thor?


          MK: MISCELLANEOUS, - taking into account the fact that NIEM began to make visits to this topic back in the late 90s (when Altair itself "buried" the "Dagger", but did not let competitors through)

          Yeah, logical ones - 96th along Bayraktar, “attach” the 100th, increase the range ...


          MK: Yes, 96 - for the tractor (+ jammer + SZ anti-ship missiles ...) and 100 for 360
          1. 0
            8 July 2022 23: 02
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            MK: On American resources, it was discussed that they “hit from the back”. Do you speak rush? Or do you also have extra eyes on the back of your head?

            So I also wrote - it is useless. And it’s not just that I suggested that you formulate something like a TTZ for a ship’s air defense system, for the role of which you are pushing a befuddled Thor in one form or another. Should the air defense system protect the ship from a single missile that accidentally broke through to it through the air defense of the escort ships, or should the air defense system reflect the stellar timed attack of the anti-ship missile group. Otherwise, in your opinion, it turns out that the air defense system is super-duper, and the enemies, such and such, do not agree to abide by the noble rules - they "hit from the back."
            MK: Once again - blowing a Speech Russian??? In the article, this is clearly and in Russian written - TZM should shoot (yes, with restrictions due to the same “specificity” of 331 missiles) - and this is a hard lesson from real databases.

            TZM cannot shoot by definition, TZM is a transport-loading vehicle. You require to make a launcher - PU. So it's useless. CHP Torah and launchers of its missiles should be located on the same rotary structure. Otherwise, in addition to the declination, the SAM will have to be rotated along the roll, which none of the Torah SAMs can do. I look for you in the Torah there are still many unknowns that lead you to erroneous sentences.
            Actually, this is objective physics (both in terms of mm and the costs of the booster scheme (although in some cases it is the only optimal one))

            The booster circuit is just a detachable single-mode engine. As I wrote above, all modern missiles from Fakel and URVV from Vympel are with a single-mode inseparable engine. That is, the single-mode engine is not a problem. The engine compartment remains. How can engine separation have negative consequences for missile defense maneuvering?
            MK: Bobik called Dagger, fffse - dead. And about "didn't appear" - how is your vision?

            Yes figs with a dagger. So far, I see lobbying for the muddling of Tor-M2, without indicating and substantiating the concept of its necessity.
            MK: AGAIN - THIS IS A PUBLIC ARTICLE! FERSHTEIN? Or do YOU ​​have "underlined supposedly blindness"? - I clearly wrote that long distances should be provided by 96 missiles (which, unlike the "big" armored one, really provides it (with the Republic of Kazakhstan)

            And what should be the RES for long distances 9M96? S-350, as it were, hints that this is not at all the RES of the Torah.
            MK: For starters, WHAT GOALS? Yes, in full, this option does not provide the possibility of either the 350 lock or the Mnogoment (there is physics), but the fact that 96 is used from corvettes even from Furke and the Puma “crutch” (the capabilities of which are significantly lower than those of Torovsky) clearly indicates such capabilities

            So goals you must define. You came up with a proposal for an air defense system for ships / vessels.
            Even Furka needed a "crutch" Puma. And Furke's accuracy is higher than that of SOC Thor. And yet, what is the accuracy of the SOC Tor in terms of angular coordinates?
            MK: Are you stupid on purpose? I clearly wrote that the RK - not by "Thor means" but by the standard antennas of the RK R (with correction), they are, lettered and very compact

            That is, another RES, which is no longer on the Torah. And what are they installed on and how do they communicate with Thor?
            because on the same 22800 it provides 360, but on 22160 it has a blind sector in the stern - which SOC T can completely close!

            Isn't it easier to remake the mast or install something like a soaked Harmony at the stern? Or is it not in your interest?
            MK:
            WORKS - where it was done with straight hands
            The fact that 96 ostensibly "cannot" on the "tractor" is YOUR fabrications

            The 96th cannot work according to the "tractor". These are not my fabrications, but radar. And 100th can't. Almaz agrees with this fact.
            MK: WITH APPROPRIATE MGH (See W-1)

            Of course, miracles do not happen in radar.
            MK: Don't talk nonsense, it hurts! Stupidly compare the Dzahv ARGSN and the size of the affected area for targets and missiles

            Independent search, capture and tracking of a target by preliminary target designation without radio correction is a standard function of any modern ARGSN.
            MK: Don't talk nonsense, it hurts! The same opening of the new pencils is significantly different from the same 317 (with all the consequences).]

            Correction is needed to increase the target engagement range, since the radar detection and target designation range is much greater than the ARGSN range, and to increase the ARGSN noise immunity by turning it on for a short time in the final area near the target.
            MK: Yes, 96 - for the tractor (+ jammer + SZ anti-ship missiles ...) and 100 for 360

            Yes, the 96th tractor does not work. Almaz agrees with this, only you all stubbornly continue to try to use the 96th against the tractor. Triangulation is needed to work on PP. Where are you going to take it from? There is not a word about this in the article. 100th - yes, but Thor is not needed for it.
            1. +2
              9 July 2022 23: 27
              Answer from the author M. Klimov:

              So I also wrote - it is useless. And it’s not just that I suggested that you formulate something like a TTZ for a ship’s air defense system, for the role of which you are pushing a befuddled Thor in one form or another. Should the air defense system protect the ship from a single missile that accidentally broke through to it through the air defense of the escort ships, or should the air defense system reflect the stellar timed attack of the anti-ship missile group. Otherwise, in your opinion, it turns out that the air defense system is super-duper, and the enemies, such and such, do not agree to abide by the noble rules - they "hit from the back."


              Monsieur, yes, YOU have a "fillet" campaign blazing!
              We read the article: ABM is now “thrown into battle”, but “a very simple question” - and full-fledged firing with a real reflection of a volley (namely, a volley - with its real (small) temporary range) of “analogues of Harpoons” (RM24 or others) of the Navy were carried out ? Or “responsible officials” are still afraid of conducting such tests (the recent exercises of the Baltic Fleet and the latest firing of corvettes make you think hard, but about this - in one of the next articles, “comprehensive” and taking into account the “retrospective”, on fleet air defense) ? Is the interim "Guideline ..." on the combat use of ABM developed and adopted? ... I repeat - ABM "Tor-M2KM" may well be used from ships and vessels, while ensuring the detection and defeat, including low-flying anti-ship missiles. However, in its current form, ABM is precisely a land complex, with a number of serious restrictions on marine use. And this factor must be taken into account. It is necessary to accelerate the development of a full-fledged naval self-defense air defense system. At the same time, other areas of work (“shooting TZM” with the possibility of using 331, 338, 100 and 96 missiles, a new “small” missile) should be forced as much as possible.

              1. TTZ and appearance are formed, yes, by me and not at all “yesterday”
              2. And this article, incl. pendal to Kartashov and Co. on the "Dome"

              TZM cannot shoot by definition, TZM is a transport-loading vehicle. You require to make a launcher - PU. So it's useless. CHP Torah and launchers of its missiles should be located on the same rotary structure. Otherwise, in addition to the declination, the SAM will have to be rotated along the roll, which none of the Torah SAMs can do. I look for you in the Torah there are still many unknowns that lead you to erroneous sentences.


              Monsieur, you moderate your squeals! The "shooting" TZM has long been implemented in the "Buk" (where it became a launcher-loading machine). Swivel design? "New" PU? But nothing that for the MODERNIZATION IN THE TEXT UNDER M3 OF OLD CHASSIS, this goes “for ejection” (FOR OLD ROCKETS!) - because the new SAM does not require this! Yes, at the same time, there are severe restrictions on the relative position of the "new Tor" and the "new TZM (PZM)" - however, the extremely serious problem of insufficient ammunition is being solved - which is especially important for air defense of stationary objects, it is possible to use old mass missiles (including . with STP and reduced reliability). Do you speak Russian? And also refrain from your ridiculous "advisers" on materiel - if YOU know anything - then ONLY THE OLD (and which, suddenly, I also know).

              The booster circuit is just a detachable single-mode engine. As I wrote above, all modern missiles from Fakel and URVV from Vympel are with a single-mode inseparable engine. That is, the single-mode engine is not a problem. The engine compartment remains. How can engine separation have negative consequences for missile defense maneuvering?


              The dead zone, and most importantly, the OPERATING TIME of solid propellant rocket engines - with all the ensuing consequences for hitting maneuvering targets and targets with a parameter. Do you speak Russian?

              Yes figs with a dagger. So far, I see lobbying for the muddling of Tor-M2, without indicating and substantiating the concept of its necessity.


              And I see YOU have a heart-rending screech “fffse is good, nothing is needed” - with which we received both the shameful drowning of “Moscow” and the complete ... r of the Black Sea Fleet in the NWO now. ALREADY ASKED A QUESTION (from which YOU run like a lousy from a bathhouse) - TELL ME AN ALTERNATIVE RK-SAM SO with SM-SSS and BEZBUSTREN SAM ??? ZHDEMS.
              Yes, I don’t like Thor myself “in a number of ways” - but this is the ONLY thing we have in this “niche”.

              And what should be the RES for long distances 9M96? S-350, as it were, hints that this is not at all the RES of the Torah.


              DO YU SPEAK RUSSIAN??? I clearly wrote above that 96 and 100 were completely provided with POSITIVE, moreover, they were hardly provided with doped FOURKE. Yes, subject to limitations, but PROVIDED. With the corresponding shooting statistics (already UNDER HUNDRED).
              YOU are here babbling nonsense about the alleged "impossibility".

              So goals you must define. You came up with a proposal for an air defense system for ships / vessels. Even Furka needed a "crutch" Puma. And Furke's accuracy is higher than that of SOC Thor. And yet, what is the accuracy of the SOC Tor in terms of angular coordinates?


              MK:
              THIS IS AN OPEN PUBLIC ARTICLE.
              BELOW
              I DO NOT GIVE TO PROVOCATORS

              That is, another RES, which is no longer on the Torah. And what are they installed on and how do they communicate with Thor?


              Yes, these antennas can be seen on the “reinforced 22160” model under Positive. As for the rest - I DO NOT SUBMIT TO PROVOCATORS (because YOUR "questions" have a clear vector to provoke me to "say too much" - after which "corresponding measures" can be applied to me)

              Isn't it easier to remake the mast or install something like a soaked Harmony at the stern? Or is it not in your interest?


              Monsieur, the FACT of the fact that all my and Timokhin's shitty forecasts for the Navy have been fully confirmed to say that my interests are the COMFORTABILITY OF THE FLEET and the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (unlike "you like" individuals). “With little blood” (and in a short time) the mast cannot be redone (and I will not give details here). "Harmonic"??? Do you offer another drink on a deliberately low-frequency radar? YOU "rake" with Furke (close range) and full experience with air defense ships "few"? Or are YOU a "subtle connoisseur" of "cutting the tonsils through the anus" - instead of the normal OPTIMAL range radar, run into various sawing perversions "through the opus"?

              The 96th cannot work according to the "tractor". These are not my fabrications, but radar. And 100th can't. Almaz agrees with this fact.


              What do you "agree" with? the fact that the paper "does not write a tractor"? And in this piece of paper "every tractor, car, dragonfly, etc." "need to write"? How is your head at all? There are TARGET PARAMETERS, primarily in terms of EPR and speed, and targets with the parameters of the "tractor" of the same 96 fall confidently - and these are precisely the facts of firing!

              Of course, miracles do not happen in radar.


              Miracles do not happen, but when instead of an OPTIMAL appearance (providing the necessary performance characteristics within the framework of the MGH providing installation on carriers) YOU offer another “tonsils through the op” (YOUR “option” with “harmony dimming” (Non-optimal range)) how is it?

              Independent search, capture and tracking of a target by preliminary target designation without radio correction is a standard function of any modern ARGSN.


              DON'T FUCK IT, IT HURTS. YOU don't know ANYTHING about this topic. The sizes of these zones are simply disproportionate!!! And there can be no question of any "independent search" for the ARGSN SAM in the bottom of the defeat of the air defense system! - before the launch of the missile defense system, the point of "opening the head" is set (which is simply negligible against the background of the zone of destruction of the air defense system).

              Correction is needed to increase the target engagement range, since the radar detection and target designation range is much greater than the ARGSN range, and to increase the ARGSN noise immunity by turning it on for a short time in the final area near the target.


              AGAIN IN THE PUDDLE. This ACHINEA was carried by the "theorists" who substantiated the opupei with 100 missiles. Practitioners were not listened to. So far, on the "rake" of real shooting, foreheads have not been knocked down. I do not intend to give details publicly, incl. taking into account the obvious "provocative darling" of YOUR supposedly "questions"

              Yes, the 96th tractor does not work. Almaz agrees with this, only you all stubbornly continue to try to use the 96th against the tractor. Triangulation is needed to work on PP. Where are you going to take it from? There is not a word about this in the article. 100th - yes, but Thor is not needed for it.


              ONCE AGAIN - What do you "agree" with? the fact that the paper "does not write a tractor"? And in this piece of paper "every tractor, car, dragonfly, etc." "need to write"? How is your head at all? There are TARGET PARAMETERS, primarily in terms of EPR and speed, and targets with the parameters of the "tractor" of the same 96 fall confidently - and these are precisely the facts of firing!
              As for the PP - do not smack nonsense, the accuracy of the RTR (YOUR "triangulation") is obviously insufficient, and provides the maximum "pull the missiles closer to the target" (and then she herself), and YOU apparently know nothing at all on this issue.
              AND ONCE AGAIN - TELL ME AN ALTERNATIVE RK-SAM SO with SM-SSS and NO Booster SAM ??? ZHDEMS.
        2. 0
          8 July 2022 19: 40
          Answer continued:

          You see, what a surprise for you - they don’t know how to do “firing” PAR Ku and Ka ranges for air defense systems. Here they can't. If they could, Roland and Crotal and Rapier would be with them. And they all sit on "plates" with a single-channel target. Don't overestimate them. Nothing to do.


          MK: Tyuyuyu - what fairy tales))) YOU still say - the ECB is "completely its own"))))

          Not! Artillery reconnaissance radar by design, used ranges and modes of operation - surveillance radars.


          ONCE AGAIN - I am not writing about artillery radar !!! I'm talking about the need to give their capabilities (yes, to a limited extent) to air defense radars, and for them, according to their characteristics, this is definitely SSC (and not SOC)!

          Nope, what they need to detect and track to ensure satisfactory accuracy can be detected while in the reach of the reconnaissance object. No, it is possible out of reach, but only if the type of weapon is known exactly and the accuracy will be very approximate.


          MK: This is from what hangover? - if the technical characteristics are provided not only in the affected area, but also outside it?

          I'm talking about nonsense about the idea of ​​\u2b\uXNUMXbusing the SNR Torah-MXNUMX artillery reconnaissance radar. Artillery reconnaissance can be combined with the detection of an air target in a surveillance radar (normal radar, of course). But in the firing range .. - nonsense.


          MK: You are bringing nonsense and nonsense here! Just air defense radars (small air defense systems) can technically provide this only for the SSC (but not the SOC)!

          So from the article it turns out that you are rushing about, trying to make “and a Swiss, and a reaper, and a gambler on the pipe” offering options that do not work or have an unknown result (most likely a negative one). And how can all this be systematized if you do not define the basic things for designing an air defense system?


          MK: YOU are rushing around here, carrying nonsense and nonsense. If 96 is provided (with the defeat of even complex targets) from radars with much worse characteristics - what are the problems for T locks (except for software improvements) ??? And as for the "basic things" - where did YOU get the idea that they are not ??? The real (and bloody) combat experience, to put it mildly, “specifically knocked on the head like that” - in terms of translating what was already on paper ... years ago.

          Yep, loved it. And he worked with the SV, and the air defense (of the country and the SV) worked, and the Air Force worked, and he worked with the Navy. And he was on trial. He is from Srednemash. He also said about sailors: “A sea of ​​traditions and a sea of ​​ambitions.”


          MK: As they say - “it’s far to see a falcon in flight, but a good fellow in ...” YOU ALL WRITTEN about this YOURSELF
          1. 0
            8 July 2022 23: 33
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            MK: Tyuyuyu - what fairy tales))) YOU still say - the ECB is "completely its own"))))

            FAR - its own. And they just don’t have a PAR. That is why so far with "plates" and single-channel target.
            ONCE AGAIN - I am not writing about artillery radar !!! I'm talking about the need to give their capabilities (yes, to a limited extent) to air defense radars, and for them, according to their characteristics, this is definitely SSC (and not SOC)!

            Our air defense radars are divided into surveillance (with target designation) and "shooting". It is possible to demand this from surveyors, but it is useless from shooting ones.
            MK: This is from what hangover? - if the technical characteristics are provided not only in the affected area, but also outside it?

            What needs to be observed for the desired location accuracy will be in the affected area. What can be observed from outside the kill zone will only give acceptable accuracy with knowledge of the type of ammunition and unguided / uncorrected ammunition.
            MK: You are bringing nonsense and nonsense here! Just air defense radars (small air defense systems) can technically provide this only for the SSC (but not the SOC)!

            The characteristics of "shooting" radars are not suitable for this. Even the shape of their PAR canvas is not suitable.
            MK: YOU are rushing around here, carrying nonsense and nonsense. If 96 is provided (with the defeat of even complex targets) from radars with much worse characteristics - what are the problems for T locks (except for software improvements) ???

            Well, why are you suffering? Almaz agrees, but you are all against it. In the performance characteristics for the 96th and 100th, this is clearly written.
            And as for the "basic things" - where did YOU get the idea that they are not ??? Real (and bloody) combat experience, to put it mildly, “specifically knocked on the head like that” - in terms of translating what was already on paper ... years ago

            Your article doesn't say anything about it. As I wrote above: if the task is to defend against an accidentally "lost" anti-ship missile, this is one thing, but if the task is to repel a stellar coordinated anti-ship missile raid, this is quite another. There is nothing about it in the article.
            MK: As they say - “it’s far to see a falcon in flight, but a good fellow in ...” YOU ALL WRITTEN about this YOURSELF

            Do you even understand what kind of tests we are talking about?
            1. 0
              9 July 2022 23: 34
              And they just don’t have a PAR. That is why so far with "plates" and single-channel target.

              Wow how it all started ...

              Our air defense radars are divided into surveillance (with target designation) and "shooting". It is possible to demand this from surveyors, but it is useless from shooting ones.


              Is it because YOU really don't want to? “Not hotsa” and “everything is here”?

              What needs to be observed for the desired location accuracy will be in the affected area. What can be observed from outside the kill zone will only give acceptable accuracy with knowledge of the type of ammunition and unguided / uncorrected ammunition.


              YES, AND THIS IS MORE THAN ENOUGH!!! Moreover, this allows you to work on the controlled ones - on the Unmanaged section!!!

              The characteristics of "shooting" radars are not suitable for this. Even the shape of their PAR canvas is not suitable.


              This is purely YOUR opinion - not related to reality, but taking into account frank "floats" on the subject - the same "sea Harmony" - speaking of YOUR complete incompetence

              Well, why are you suffering? Almaz agrees, but you are all against it. In the performance characteristics for the 96th and 100th, this is clearly written.


              ONCE AGAIN - What do you "agree" with? the fact that the paper "does not write a tractor"? And in this piece of paper "every tractor, car, dragonfly, etc." "need to write"? How is your head at all? There are TARGET PARAMETERS, primarily in terms of EPR and speed, and targets with the parameters of the "tractor" of the same 96 fall confidently - and these are precisely the facts of firing!

              Your article doesn't say anything about it. As I wrote above: if the task is to defend against an accidentally "lost" anti-ship missile, this is one thing, but if the task is to repel a stellar coordinated anti-ship missile raid, this is quite another. There is nothing about it in the article.


              Monsieur, do you want the smoke from the "burning filet"? interfere with seeing?
              Here, from the article:

              ABM "Tor-M2KM" may well be used from ships and vessels, while ensuring the detection and destruction, including low-flying anti-ship missiles. However, in its current form, ABM is precisely a land complex, with a number of serious restrictions on marine use. And this factor must be taken into account. It is necessary to accelerate the development of a full-fledged naval self-defense air defense system.


              - this is only in this article, there are also links to the previous ones on the subject of air defense - where it was about the reflection of FULL volleys !!!

              Do you even understand what kind of tests we are talking about?


              YOUR fairy tales are not interesting to me - tell them to your grandchildren. As for the results and methods of work, I use fundamentally more reliable sources than the fabrications (YOUR) of a deliberately incompetent person (and, moreover, a provocateur).
              1. 0
                15 July 2022 20: 25
                Monsieur, yes, YOU have a "fillet" campaign blazing!
                We read the article: ABM is now “thrown into battle”, but “a very simple question” - and full-fledged firing with a real reflection of a volley (namely, a volley - with its real (small) temporary range) of “analogues of Harpoons” (RM24 or others) of the Navy were carried out ? Or “responsible officials” are still afraid of conducting such tests (the recent exercises of the Baltic Fleet and the latest firing of corvettes make you think hard, but about this - in one of the next articles, “comprehensive” and taking into account the “retrospective”, on fleet air defense) ? Is the interim "Guideline ..." on the combat use of ABM developed and adopted? …

                Do ships with 9M96 / 9M100 as part of the RES have four-coordinate radars with an accurate target tracking mode and a quasi-continuous probing signal? On the ground, it is these radars that are used to work with 9M96 / 9M100. What about on ships?
                I repeat - ABM "Tor-M2KM" may well be used from ships and vessels, while ensuring the detection and defeat, including low-flying anti-ship missiles. However, in its current form, ABM is precisely a land complex, with a number of serious restrictions on marine use. And this factor must be taken into account.

                That is, in its current form, ABM is a palliative. Here they came to an agreement.

                It is necessary to accelerate the development of a full-fledged naval self-defense air defense system. At the same time, other areas of work (“shooting TZM” with the possibility of using 331, 338, 100 and 96 missiles, a new “small” missile) should be forced as much as possible.

                There are no questions about the need to develop a full-fledged sea defense air defense system. But, forced development is 9 women and one month? Or something else?
                1. TTZ and appearance are formed, yes, by me and not at all “yesterday”
                2. And this article, incl. pendal to Kartashov and Co. on the "Dome"

                It seems, as it were, that the work is being carried out according to the technical task schedule, and not the Internet article.
                Monsieur, you moderate your squeals! The "shooting" TZM has long been implemented in the "Buk" (where it became a launcher-loading machine).

                TMZ is not ROM. TMZ and ROM are completely different constructively. The beech was originally created with ROM, and not with TMZ. The ROM was in Cuba. Naturally, the TZM in Cuba could not launch missiles. The Tor ROM contains horizontally lying modules with missiles and a crane for loading them. Thor's ROM cannot be converted to ROM in any way. You are suggesting doing a brand new installation for Thor. What is her appearance? Thor is a land-based air defense system. Does the landlord need it?
                Swivel design? "New" PU? But nothing that for the MODERNIZATION IN THE TEXT UNDER M3 OF OLD CHASSIS, this goes “for ejection” (FOR OLD ROCKETS!) - because the new SAM does not require this!

                So in your article it is written about the “shooting” TZM: ““shooting TZM” with the possibility of using 331, 338, 100 and 96 missiles, a new “small” missile, and 331st and 338th. The launcher will either need to rotate in coordination with the rotation of the BM turret, or rotate 331, 338 in roll.
                Yes, at the same time, there are severe restrictions on the relative position of the "new Tor" and the "new TZM (PZM)" - however, the extremely serious problem of insufficient ammunition is being solved - which is especially important for air defense of stationary objects, it is possible to use old mass missiles (including . with STP and reduced reliability). Do you speak Russian?

                Position is not a problem. At the launcher, it will be necessary to turn the turret in coordination with the rotation of the BM turret, or rotate the anti-aircraft missiles launched from the launcher along the roll, since both the 331st and 338th are going to.
                And also refrain from your ridiculous "advisers" on materiel - if YOU know anything - then ONLY THE OLD (and which, suddenly, I also know).

                Well, you wrote only after my remark: “Yes, in this case, there are severe restrictions on the relative position.”
                The dead zone, and most importantly, the OPERATING TIME of solid propellant rocket engines - with all the ensuing consequences for hitting maneuvering targets and targets with a parameter. Do you speak Russian?

                Well, in 48N6E2, the remote control works for 12 s, after which the missile defense system flies by inertia, and somehow it has no problems with the parameter. The maneuverability of missiles is determined by its energy. And the energy at each moment of time is either already in speed or still in the engine. Any SAM and URVV on the maneuver loses speed. Here are the dynamic guidance errors, yes, they depend on the rate of loss of missile speed, and they have to be dealt with. And the probability of hitting a target for some types of warheads is highly dependent on the angle of the meeting with the target and the accuracy of determining the time of detonation of the warhead.
                And I see YOU have a heart-rending screech “fffse is good, nothing is needed” - with which we received both the shameful drowning of “Moscow” and the complete ... r of the Black Sea Fleet in the NWO now. ALREADY ASKED A QUESTION (from which YOU run like a lousy from a bathhouse) - TELL ME AN ALTERNATIVE RK-SAM SO with SM-SSS and BEZBUSTREN SAM ??? ZHDEMS.

                So it's not my job. I just read the article and joined the discussion. What should be the air defense system of the fleet, what air defense systems should it consist of, how should they interact and how should this interaction be ensured - this is the task of naval specialists. From the article it seems that all this has not yet been done. There are attempts to fragmentarily plug various “holes”. It is unlikely that something significant can be obtained from the plugging as a whole.
                Yes, I don’t like Thor myself “in a number of ways” - but this is the ONLY thing we have in this “niche”.

                And why not formulate what is really needed? At some point it will still have to be done.
                DO YU SPEAK RUSSIAN??? I clearly wrote above that 96 and 100 were completely provided with POSITIVE, moreover, they were hardly provided with doped FOURKE. Yes, subject to limitations, but PROVIDED. With the corresponding shooting statistics (already UNDER HUNDRED).
                YOU are here babbling nonsense about the alleged "impossibility".

                So "Positive" in terms of the accuracy of determining the coordinates and the pace of the review is not like the SOC "Torah". Doubts are in the SOC Torah. In terms of security and restrictions ... There are no restrictions in the C-350E. In the S-350E, in the circular mode of operation of the MFR, targets are hit at transonic speed and "moderate" maneuvering at a frequency of access to the target and missiles of 0.67 Hz. To defeat supersonic highly maneuverable targets, the MFR sector mode of operation is used with a frequency of access to the target and missiles of 10 Hz. According to BR - the sectoral mode of operation of the MFR and the frequency of access to the target and missiles 20 Hz. To hit targets, the precise tracking mode is used, the main type of probing signal in this case is quasi-continuous (with possible variations). Here everything works without restrictions. And how can ship-based radars provide air defense systems with 9M96 / 9M100 to hit a target?
              2. 0
                15 July 2022 20: 26
                Extension
                [quote]MK:
                THIS IS AN OPEN PUBLIC ARTICLE.
                BELOW
                I DO NOT SUPPLY TO PROVOCATORS [/ quote
                ]
                So there is nothing secret. For a radar of this type, the accuracy in angular coordinates is half the width of the GL BOTTOM. The width of the GL BOTTOM of the SOC Tor is 4 degrees in elevation and 2 degrees in azimuth (this is in the public domain). Count the halves and get the accuracy. And compare with Positive, which has an accuracy of 0.24 degrees in angular coordinates.
                [quote] Monsieur, the FACT of the fact that all my and Timokhin's shitty forecasts for the Navy have been fully confirmed to say that my interests are the BATTLE-EFFICIENCY of the FLEET and the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (unlike "you like" individuals). “With little blood” (and in a short time) the mast cannot be redone (and I will not give details here). "Harmonic"??? Do you offer another drink on a deliberately low-frequency radar? YOU "rake" with Furke (close range) and full experience with air defense ships "few"? Or are YOU a "subtle connoisseur" of "cutting the tonsils through the anus" - instead of the normal OPTIMAL range radar, run into various sawing perversions "through the opus"? [/quote]
                But SOC Tor is by no means a normal radar at the present time. This is the last century. Even the field of view in elevation is 32 degrees.
                [quote] What do you "agree" with? the fact that the paper "does not write a tractor"? And in this piece of paper "every tractor, car, dragonfly, etc." "need to write"? How is your head at all? There are TARGET PARAMETERS, primarily in terms of EPR and speed, and targets with the parameters of the "tractor" of the same 96 fall confidently - and these are precisely the facts of firing! [/quote]
                "Diamond" gives confidently only for targets with a speed of more than 50 m / s.
                [quote] Miracles do not happen, but when instead of an OPTIMAL appearance (providing the necessary performance characteristics within the framework of the MGH providing installation on media), YOU offer another “tonsils through the opus” (YOUR “option” with “harmony dimming” (Non-optimal range)) it’s like ? [/quote]
                The optimal appearance is the result of the optimality criterion, and it depends on the target task. The task is to provide protection against an accidentally lost anti-ship missile or from a stellar raid of several anti-ship missiles or different types of aircraft?
                [quote] DO NOT FUCK THIS, IT HURTS. YOU don't know ANYTHING about this topic. The sizes of these zones are simply disproportionate!!! And there can be no question of any "independent search" for the ARGSN SAM in the bottom of the defeat of the air defense system! - before the start of the missile defense system, the point of "opening the head" is set (which is simply negligible against the background of the zone of destruction of the air defense system). [/quote]
                If, when launching a missile defense system, the target is at the range of its capture by the ARGSN, then it is possible to capture the target immediately after launch, more precisely, after a couple of seconds of flight. And after the capture of the ARGSN, the targets of the correction team are not required.
                [quote] AGAIN IN A PUDDLE. This ACHINEA was carried by the "theorists" who substantiated the opupei with 100 missiles. Practitioners were not listened to. So far, on the "rake" of real shooting, foreheads have not been knocked down. I do not intend to give details publicly, incl. taking into account the obvious "provocative darling" of YOUR supposedly "questions" [/ quote]
                This "Achinea" was implemented a long time ago in 9M92 and 9M93. And when starting from the Buk / Buk-M1 ROM, no correction commands are received for the missiles. PARGSN or ARGSN does not matter for this. The result depends on the accuracy of target designation. On the ground and in the air, four-coordinate radars are used. What about sailors?
                [quote] ONCE AGAIN - With what do you "agree"? the fact that the paper "does not write a tractor"? And in this piece of paper "every tractor, car, dragonfly, etc." "need to write"? How is your head at all? There are TARGET PARAMETERS, primarily in terms of EPR and speed, and targets with the parameters of the "tractor" of the same 96 fall confidently - and these are precisely the facts of firing! [/quote]
                "Diamond" gives the minimum speed of hit targets - 50 m / s.
                [quote] As for the PP - don’t smack the nonsense, the accuracy of the RTR (YOUR “triangulation”) is obviously insufficient, and provides the maximum to “pull the missiles closer to the target” (and then she herself), and YOU apparently don’t know anything about this issue at all . [/quote]
                To select a reference trajectory, an estimate of the range to the SP is needed, which is performed either by triangulation or by the difference-range method (if there are means for this). In S-300P, S-300V, S-350, Buk this is done in different ways, but it is done in all.
                [quote] AND ONCE AGAIN - TELL ME AN ALTERNATIVE RK-SAM SO with SM-SSS and NO Booster SAM ??? WELCOME.. [/quote]
                There's no such thing. But why is it needed on an ABM vessel based on Thor? From what threat should he protect the ship on which he will stand?
                [quote] Ooo how everything is running ... [/ quote]
                That's it.
                [quote] Is it because YOU don't really want to? “Not hotsa” and “everything is here”? [/quote]
                They are structurally different.
                [quote] YES, AND THIS IS MORE THAN ENOUGH!!! Moreover, this allows you to work on the controlled ones - on the Unmanaged section!!! [/quote]
                Allows, but only while in the affected area.
                [quote] This is purely YOUR opinion - not related to reality, but taking into account frank "heats" on the subject - the same "sea Harmony" - speaking of YOUR complete incompetence [/ quote]
                And you compare the counter-battery radar, and the "firing" radars, for example, in terms of such a parameter as the width of the main bottom. She is very different from them. And it is selected for the target task.
                [quote] Monsieur, do you want smoke from a "burning fillet"? interfere with seeing? [/quote]
                Here, from the article:
                ABM "Tor-M2KM" may well be used from ships and vessels, while ensuring the detection and defeat, including low-flying anti-ship missiles ... [/ quote]
                Well, it might apply. And what can protect a ship or vessel from?
                quote] YOUR fairy tales are not interesting to me - tell them to your grandchildren. As for the results and methods of work, I use fundamentally more reliable sources than the fabrications (YOUR) of a deliberately incompetent person (and, moreover, a provocateur). [/quote]
                Why didn’t you submit this article to specialized journals of organizations related to the development of air defense systems and their use? Are you afraid of obviously competent reviewers from specialized organizations?
  30. +1
    6 July 2022 21: 45
    - the need for a significant increase in the far border and the zone of destruction of the complex.
    This is problematic: Thor has radio command guidance, to increase the range, not only more fuel is needed, but also some kind of seeker, and this increases not only the size, but also the price.
    At the same time, already about 5 years ago, quite effective projectiles with remote detonation of 30 mm caliber were developed for armored vehicles.
    Remote detonation of 30 mm is not a panacea: anti-aircraft 85-100 mm must be revived: questions will be removed not only in terms of accuracy (due to the shock wave and fragmentation field), but also in terms of high range (Bayraktars will be enough).
    That is, we have “good ammunition and sights” on the armored objects of the battlefield, but extremely poor visibility and detection capabilities for small UAVs
    And these issues need to be resolved through the widespread installation of an analogue of Link-16 (we seem to have had it).
    1. +2
      6 July 2022 22: 20
      And these issues need to be resolved through the widespread installation of an analogue of Link-16 (we seem to have had it).


      He is not finished
  31. 0
    7 July 2022 11: 38
    The fact that there was "some kind of trouble" with the air defense on the ships was immediately clear after the descent and publication of the first plans for the series. Perhaps they counted like the Yankees - on some, air defense is better, and on others, the shock component. And ideally they should complement each other.
    But as always, something "did not grow together." Now patching holes than necessary.
    PS Recalling articles previously written in VO with vivid controversy that it will take several dozen missiles to destroy (disable) the AUG, I would like to ask these accountants - yes, how many do you need?
    In reality, the salvo of "Antey" would be enough for almost everyone.
  32. 0
    7 July 2022 12: 45
    The solution with Thor is far from ideal, but there is no other way. The sectoral formation of air defense in this case is fraught, which was proved by the sinking of the tug.
  33. 0
    7 July 2022 20: 01
    About sabotage is not entirely clear. If the investigation proves that the motive for sabotage was to cause damage to the Russian Federation on the orders of the enemy, then this is already state. treason. But I have not yet googled the details of the mentioned criminal case. Maybe it will come up in the press.
  34. STD
    0
    8 July 2022 10: 23
    Quote: Comet

    Any ARGSN provides target acquisition immediately after launch. And after the capture, no corrections are needed anymore.

    Here you are wrong. ARGSN does not work that way.
    1. 0
      8 July 2022 23: 36
      Quote from std
      Here you are wrong. ARGSN does not work that way.

      In what sense?
      1. STD
        0
        9 July 2022 00: 14
        Quote: Comet

        Yes, the 96th tractor does not work. Almaz agrees with this, only you all stubbornly continue to try to use the 96th against the tractor.

        Uh. Almaz (Altair) claims so? Just never heard of it.
        Quote: Comet
        Quote from std
        Here you are wrong. ARGSN does not work that way.

        In what sense?

        In direct. First, inertial flight, then the inclusion of ARGSN.
        1. 0
          15 July 2022 20: 51
          Quote from std
          Uh. Almaz (Altair) claims so? Just never heard of it.

          Yes, Diamond. It is spelled out in the C-350E brochure. The minimum speed of targets hit is 50 m / s.

          Quote from std
          In direct. First, inertial flight, then the inclusion of ARGSN.

          ARGSN can search for and capture a target at any time if the target is in its ARGSN capture zone. The passage of the command "Capture allowed" is possible in a couple of seconds after the launch of the missile defense engine. The nearest border of the affected area, for example, 9M100 - 1-1.5 km.
  35. 0
    9 July 2022 09: 50
    Thank you yes article
    I’ll probably deviate a little from the topic, but based on the ideas of the article, in addition, we get: serial production, relative uniformity and unification for various elements of air defense and radar?
  36. 0
    15 July 2022 20: 29
    [quote]MK:
    THIS IS AN OPEN PUBLIC ARTICLE.
    BELOW
    I DO NOT SERVE TO PROVOCATORS [/ quote]
    So there is nothing secret. For a radar of this type, the accuracy in angular coordinates is half the width of the GL BOTTOM. The width of the GL BOTTOM of the SOC Tor is 4 degrees in elevation and 2 degrees in azimuth (this is in the public domain). Count the halves and get the accuracy. And compare with Positive, which has an accuracy of 0.24 degrees in angular coordinates.
    [quote] Monsieur, the FACT of the fact that all my and Timokhin's shitty forecasts for the Navy have been fully confirmed to say that my interests are the BATTLE-EFFICIENCY of the FLEET and the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (unlike "you like" individuals). “With little blood” (and in a short time) the mast cannot be redone (and I will not give details here). "Harmonic"??? Do you offer another drink on a deliberately low-frequency radar? YOU "rake" with Furke (close range) and full experience with air defense ships "few"? Or are YOU a "subtle connoisseur" of "cutting the tonsils through the anus" - instead of the normal OPTIMAL range radar, run into various sawing perversions "through the opus"? [/quote]
    But SOC Tor is by no means a normal radar at the present time. This is the last century. Even the field of view in elevation is 32 degrees.
    [quote] What do you "agree" with? the fact that the paper "does not write a tractor"? And in this piece of paper "every tractor, car, dragonfly, etc." "need to write"? How is your head at all? There are TARGET PARAMETERS, primarily in terms of EPR and speed, and targets with the parameters of the "tractor" of the same 96 fall confidently - and these are precisely the facts of firing! [/quote]
    "Diamond" gives confidently only for targets with a speed of more than 50 m / s.
    [quote] Miracles do not happen, but when instead of an OPTIMAL appearance (providing the necessary performance characteristics within the framework of the MGH providing installation on media), YOU offer another “tonsils through the opus” (YOUR “option” with “harmony dimming” (Non-optimal range)) it’s like ? [/quote]
    The optimal appearance is the result of the optimality criterion, and it depends on the target task. The task is to provide protection against an accidentally lost anti-ship missile or from a stellar raid of several anti-ship missiles or different types of aircraft?
    [quote] DO NOT FUCK THIS, IT HURTS. YOU don't know ANYTHING about this topic. The sizes of these zones are simply disproportionate!!! And there can be no question of any "independent search" for the ARGSN SAM in the bottom of the defeat of the air defense system! - before the start of the missile defense system, the point of "opening the head" is set (which is simply negligible against the background of the zone of destruction of the air defense system). [/quote]
    If, when launching a missile defense system, the target is at the range of its capture by the ARGSN, then it is possible to capture the target immediately after launch, more precisely, after a couple of seconds of flight. And after the capture of the ARGSN, the targets of the correction team are not required.
    [quote] AGAIN IN A PUDDLE. This ACHINEA was carried by the "theorists" who substantiated the opupei with 100 missiles. Practitioners were not listened to. So far, on the "rake" of real shooting, foreheads have not been knocked down. I do not intend to give details publicly, incl. taking into account the obvious "provocative darling" of YOUR supposedly "questions" [/ quote]
    This "Achinea" was implemented a long time ago in 9M92 and 9M93. And when starting from the Buk / Buk-M1 ROM, no correction commands are received for the missiles. PARGSN or ARGSN does not matter for this. The result depends on the accuracy of target designation. On the ground and in the air, four-coordinate radars are used. What about sailors?
    [quote] ONCE AGAIN - With what do you "agree"? the fact that the paper "does not write a tractor"? And in this piece of paper "every tractor, car, dragonfly, etc." "need to write"? How is your head at all? There are TARGET PARAMETERS, primarily in terms of EPR and speed, and targets with the parameters of the "tractor" of the same 96 fall confidently - and these are precisely the facts of firing! [/quote]
    "Diamond" gives the minimum speed of hit targets - 50 m / s.
    [quote] As for the PP - don’t smack the nonsense, the accuracy of the RTR (YOUR “triangulation”) is obviously insufficient, and provides the maximum to “pull the missiles closer to the target” (and then she herself), and YOU apparently don’t know anything about this issue at all . [/quote]
    To select a reference trajectory, an estimate of the range to the SP is needed, which is performed either by triangulation or by the difference-range method (if there are means for this). In S-300P, S-300V, S-350, Buk this is done in different ways, but it is done in all.
    [quote] AND ONCE AGAIN - TELL ME AN ALTERNATIVE RK-SAM SO with SM-SSS and NO Booster SAM ??? WELCOME.. [/quote]
    There's no such thing. But why is he needed on the ship? From what threat should he protect the ship on which he will stand?
    [quote] Ooo how everything is running ... [/ quote]
    That's it.
    [quote] Is it because YOU don't really want to? “Not hotsa” and “everything is here”? [/quote]
    They are structurally different.
    [quote] YES, AND THIS IS MORE THAN ENOUGH!!! Moreover, this allows you to work on the controlled ones - on the Unmanaged section!!! [/quote]
    Allows, but only while in the affected area.
    [quote] This is purely YOUR opinion - not related to reality, but taking into account frank "heats" on the subject - the same "sea Harmony" - speaking of YOUR complete incompetence [/ quote]
    And you compare the counter-battery radar, and the "firing" radars, for example, in terms of such a parameter as the width of the main bottom. She is very different from them. And it is selected for the target task.
    [quote] Monsieur, do you want smoke from a "burning fillet"? interfere with seeing? [/quote]
    Here, from the article:
    ABM "Tor-M2KM" may well be used from ships and vessels, while ensuring the detection and defeat, including low-flying anti-ship missiles ... [/ quote]
    Well, it might apply. And what can protect a ship or vessel from?

    quote] YOUR fairy tales are not interesting to me - tell them to your grandchildren. As for the results and methods of work, I use fundamentally more reliable sources than the fabrications (YOUR) of a deliberately incompetent person (and, moreover, a provocateur). [/quote]
    Why didn’t you submit this article to specialized journals of organizations related to the development of air defense systems and their use? Are you afraid of obviously competent reviewers from specialized organizations?
  37. 0
    16 July 2022 02: 32
    the author voiced many points that have been tormenting me personally for a long time .. a strong feeling has formed that too many incompetent "specialists", if not outright pests, have settled in the RF Ministry of Defense ...
  38. STD
    0
    16 July 2022 08: 22
    Quote: Comet
    spelled out in the brochure C-350

    Here is the answer.
    Quote: Comet
    ARGSN can search for and capture a target at any time if the target is in its ARGSN capture zone. The passage of the command "Capture allowed" is possible in a couple of seconds after the launch of the missile defense engine. The nearest border of the affected area, for example, 9M100 - 1-1.5 km.

    Everything is correct for the near zone of destruction. But not for a meeting point 28 km away. By the way, at first I was a little surprised by the number 28, then I realized that it was from the "Resource" booklet.
  39. +1
    20 August 2022 21: 40
    everything is written in fact beautifully and correctly ... But here is "teach TZM Thor to shoot" ... Klimov clearly confused Thor and Buk .. TZM Torovskaya is a KAMAZ with a manipulator in fact .. By the way, it’s interesting that at one time Klimov spat on shells 30 mm with remote detonation, but then I remembered, soon we will see a proposal to put them on the ship ... And there you can see pines before screwing the 9M340 missiles ...
  40. -1
    18 September 2022 13: 17
    To combat swarms of mini and micro UAVs, all air defense systems must be equipped with electronic warfare equipment that creates a "protective dome" over the protected object.
    Neither artillery shells nor mini-rockets can destroy hundreds and thousands of miniature drones "trained" to operate in a swarm or flock.
    1. -1
      28 November 2022 18: 20
      Hahahah, 35mm Oerlikon makes RATATATA and that's it, and there is no swarm. Cheap. angrily. Effective. 152 tungsten projectiles in a pre-exploded projectile, 1000 rounds / min.
      From 1 installation.
      What a swarm?

      Moreover, rab is not a panacea. In principle, you will not have protection from a number of homing and inertial systems, it will go to where the target was at the last moment of detection.
      Only RATATATA
  41. 0
    28 November 2022 18: 18
    Awesome article as always.
    Also, the names surfaced ... interesting.
    SW. Author, question on the article:
    Do I understand correctly that TOR has the best (and all-weather) radar and seeker for its missiles from all possible options (Kortik, Shell, Calm)?
    The question is, but simply replacing the radar on ships and integrating Shtil-1 / Redoubt and software into the TLU is impossible .... get off, do you need the complete acceptance of the complex and a separate TLU?
    And the Shell, at least in the marine version, was repaired by the work of the software on targets, the rocket doesn’t fly like shit in an ice hole?
    1. 0
      17 December 2022 13: 50
      Quote: Devil13
      Awesome article as always.
      ...
      Do I understand correctly that TOR has the best (and all-weather) radar and seeker for its missiles from all possible options (Kortik, Shell, Calm)?

      You misunderstand. The most all-weather - Calm, the most accurate - Pantsir. There is no GOS in the Torah and Shell missiles.

      Quote: Devil13
      The question is, but simply replacing the radar on ships and integrating Shtil-1 / Redoubt and software into the TLU is impossible .... get off, do you need the complete acceptance of the complex and a separate TLU?

      Full acceptance of the complex and a separate TLU. Or make a new complex like a Dagger.
      Quote: Devil13
      And the Shell, at least in the marine version, was repaired by the work of the software on targets, the rocket doesn’t fly like shit in an ice hole?

      What is this about?
      1. 0
        21 December 2022 19: 54
        On all the recordings of the missile defense system from "Pantsir-S" it shakes unrealistically, also during the exercises it seemed to hit her more than once. Unlike TOR-1M, where no such problems were noticed.
        1. 0
          22 December 2022 20: 53
          Quote: Devil13
          On all records of missiles from "Pantsir-S" it shakes unrealistically,

          Where does it wind, on what records and with what focal length?
          Quote: Devil13
          also during the exercises, not from 1 time, they seemed to hit her. Unlike TOR-2M, where no such problems were noticed.

          What exercises? For 10 months now, NWO has been going on, where both Thor and Shell are actively used. In any weather conditions.
  42. -1
    25 July 2023 00: 11
    However, the problem of "general detection" of low-altitude small-sized targets over the battlefield is extremely acute (especially with their massive use).

    Objectively, this problem does not have satisfactory technical solutions within the framework of the technical solutions of the "battlefield" armored objects.
    ______________

    How does it not have??? What is the problem with installing control and video channel detection equipment
    mini UAVs and quadrocopters, optical sensors and a directional electronic warfare antenna to suppress UAV channels ???? Yes, at least screw a civilian reb gun onto a turret!