Characteristics and capabilities of the automatic gun 2A42

97

Gun 2A42 without additional devices; the item is on its side. Photo Airwar.ru

On domestic armored vehicles and combat helicopters, weapons of different models of all main classes are used. One of the most common samples in this area is the 30 mm 2A42 automatic gun. Despite its age and small caliber, it retains a high technical and combat potential. Such a weapon performs well on different platforms and successfully copes with the defeat of certain targets.

Small-caliber progress


History The future of the 2A42 cannon began about half a century ago. In the context of the further development of armored combat vehicles for the ground forces, it was decided to develop and test a small-caliber automatic gun. In the future, it was planned to compare it with the existing 73-mm system or its upgraded version and then draw conclusions.



The development of a new gun, which later received the GRAU 2A42 index, was entrusted to the Tula Instrument Design Bureau. The corresponding order was received in 1972. The design took several years, and at the beginning of the second half of the seventies, an experimental gun was put to the test. Then, in 1978, an experimental BMP "Object 675" with a small-caliber gun was brought to the test site. Together with her, the 768 machine with the 73-mm 2A41 Zarnitsa gun was tested.


BMP-2 firing from 2A42. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

Comparative tests have shown that the 30-mm product 2A42, despite the smaller caliber, has a number of advantages over Zarnitsa. She was more accurate and could conduct effective fire at the same or greater ranges. In addition, the high efficiency of firing at buildings and armored vehicles was shown - even without breaking through the armor, the target was disabled.

Based on the test results, the product "675" with the 2A42 gun was put into service under the new designation BMP-2. In the future, the same weapon received a new BMD-2. In addition, the new gun was used in the development of advanced attack helicopters. As a result of these works, the Mi-28, Ka-50 and Ka-52 helicopters, as well as their modifications, entered service.

To date, the 2A42 cannon has managed to become one of the main weapons of several branches of the armed forces. There are thousands of pieces of equipment with such weapons in service. These are infantry fighting vehicles BMP-2, airborne vehicles BMD-2 and BMD-3 support vehicles tanks BMPT, as well as helicopters of a number of types. In addition, 2A42 products or their derivatives are used in a number of foreign projects.


Twin installation of guns on the BMPT. Photo Vitalykuzmin.net

Technical features


2A42 is a 30x165 mm automatic cannon designed for installation on various platforms. Depending on the projectile used, the product is capable of hitting manpower, unprotected and armored vehicles, as well as buildings and aircraft. The total length of the gun exceeds 3 m, weight without ammunition - 115 kg.

The gun is equipped with a rifled barrel with a caliber of 30 mm and a length of 2,4 m (80 calibers) with a developed two-chamber muzzle brake. The barrel is fixed in a receiver of complex shape, containing all the main parts and assemblies. Automation is used based on the removal of powder gases with firing from the rear sear. The barrel is locked by turning the bolt; when fully locked, a shot is fired.

The cocking of the gun before firing is carried out manually using a ratchet handle. The reciprocating mainspring is characterized by a large compression force, which is why cocking is a difficult and slow process. It also provides for quick reloading / cocking with a squib. The trigger mechanism has an electrical control system. A firing mode is provided for single or bursts with a rate of 550 and 800 rds / min.

Characteristics and capabilities of the automatic gun 2A42

Bringing the gun to normal combat. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

The gun is equipped with an original receiver that provides simultaneous feeding of two tapes from different sides. This allows you to alternately use shells of two types from different belts and boxes. The feed control method depends on the platform you are using.

2A42 uses 30x165 mm unitary shells, also used by shipborne AK-630 assault rifles. To date, several shells of this type have been developed in our country. These are high-explosive fragmentation products weighing 385-389 g, as well as several different armor-piercing shells with penetration of at least 18-25 mm of armor at a distance of 1 km. In addition, there are foreign shots 30x165 mm on the market, for which higher characteristics are declared.

Depending on the type of projectile, the initial velocity reaches 960-1120 m/s. When used against unprotected targets, the effective range is 4 km. Lightly armored vehicles are hit from 1-1,5 km, air targets - at a slant range of up to 2,5 km.

Reliable and efficient


The 2A42 automatic gun has a number of important advantages, due to which it was able to become widespread. At the same time, over several decades of service, such a tool has practically not become obsolete morally, and it can be expected that its service will continue both in the short and medium term.


Loading tape with ammunition. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

The most important advantage of the gun is its versatility. Initially, it was created to accommodate the future BMP-2 in a limited volume of the fighting compartment. In this regard, the gun is distinguished by the minimum required dimensions, special contours and limited weight. In the future, all this simplified the use of the gun on other platforms, incl. creation of new installations for helicopters.

Achieved high fire performance. Due to the long 80-caliber barrel, the 2A42 gun gives the projectile a high initial velocity, which also gives an increased range of fire against various targets. It also provides high accuracy. When firing single shots from a ground platform at a distance of 1 km, the average deviation from the aiming point does not exceed 400-500 mm. On air platforms, this parameter grows, but remains within acceptable limits.

Of great importance is the wide range of ammunition. With the help of shells of different types, 2A42 can hit both manpower or other unprotected targets, as well as armored vehicles. At the same time, foreign developments in the field of 30x165 mm shots show that far from the full potential of the gun was realized in domestic projects.


Ka-52K helicopter with a 2A42 gun on the NPPU-80 installation. Photo by Wikimedia Commons

Domestic 30-mm armor-piercing projectiles of various types can penetrate at least 25-27 mm of homogeneous steel armor at a range of 1 km and meeting angles of approx. 60°. This is enough to defeat the vast majority of modern foreign armored vehicles of the light and medium class. Only the newest developments take into account such a threat and are probably protected from it.

During testing and combat use, it was found that the 2A42 cannot penetrate the armor of even obsolete medium tanks. At the same time, such a weapon is capable of incapacitating or destroying external units and devices of the tank, incl. optical means and weapons. As a result, a heavily armored vehicle retains its overall integrity, but loses its combat capability.

High potential can be used in different ways. So, most carrier vehicles are equipped with only one 2A42 gun. In turn, BMPT tank support combat vehicles in all versions receive two such guns. This increases the overall rate of fire, the size and mass of the volley, as well as other firing characteristics.


Mi-28N with NPPU-28 nose gun. Photo "Russian Helicopters"

Product 2A42 showed and proved high reliability. It can be used in a wide range of temperatures and weather conditions. The probability of delays in firing is extremely small. In addition, when using the entire ammunition load of 500-600 shells, long pauses for intermediate cooling are not required. The reliability of the gun is ensured by a successful design, designed for use on armored vehicles - with all the specific loads, pollution and other factors.

However, there are also disadvantages. So, 2A42 makes high demands on the carrier. The recoil impulse of this gun is short and reaches 20 tons. The carrier's fighting compartment or gun mount must be suitable for such loads. The hulls of domestic armored personnel carriers or armored vehicles do not meet the requirements of the 2A42 gun. In this regard, it was necessary to develop the 2A72 gun in the same caliber, but with a different principle of operation and reduced recoil.

time tested


The 30 mm 2A42 automatic cannon was adopted by the Soviet army more than 40 years ago. Subsequently, it became part of the armament complex of a number of combat vehicles and helicopters, and also showed and confirmed the design characteristics. The carriers of such weapons are regularly used in various exercises, and in addition, they had to participate in real battles. Under all conditions, the required parameters were demonstrated and the calculated possibilities were confirmed.

Due to its potential, the 2A42 gun remains in service, and they are not going to abandon it. Moreover, new fighting compartments and armored vehicles with such equipment appear, and some developments of this kind successfully reach the series. At the same time, back in the eighties, the 2A42 gun was created for the addition of 2A72. The presence of two guns for a common projectile gives new benefits and advantages to the existing equipment, and also ensures its further development.
97 comments
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  1. +10
    7 July 2022 16: 32
    Thanks to Vasya and Arkasha, for the guns and OUR Victories!
    1. +2
      7 July 2022 18: 14
      Quote: GRANATE-19
      Thanks to Vasya and Arkasha

      Did you chase pigeons with them?
      You would also add a rhyme about Mishka (AK 47) ...
  2. +15
    7 July 2022 16: 34
    Domestic 30-mm armor-piercing projectiles of various types can penetrate at least 25-27 mm of homogeneous steel armor at a range of 1 km and meeting angles of approx. 60°. This is enough to defeat the vast majority of modern foreign armored vehicles of the light and medium class. Only the newest developments take into account such a threat and are probably protected from it.
    If we consider new developments, then what was done in the 70s is possible, but starting with Marder 1A3, Bradley M2A2, this is no longer the case, but these are the 80s of development. Yes, all the infantry fighting vehicles and many armored personnel carriers in service with the leading armies of the world were created with the condition that they could withstand the hit of such a projectile. NATO standardized requirement: Level 6 STANAG 4569 for projectile protection of the vehicle when fired with a 30-mm armor-piercing feathered projectile of the BOPS type for heading angles of safe maneuvering of ± 30 °.
    This caliber is no longer relevant. The transition to 40-57 mm caliber is ripe. And the latest developments of foreign infantry fighting vehicles testify to this.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +8
        7 July 2022 17: 02
        Did I miss something and can a feathered projectile be fired from a rifled 30 mm cannon or is it a commentator's "wet" fantasy?
        This is a quote from the requirements of 6 STANAG 4569. Not only domestic guns 30A2 and 42A2 have a caliber of 72 mm.
        Here is a more accurate quote:
        projectile protection: 30 mm (30 × 173 mm APFSDS-T) armor-piercing feathered sub-caliber projectile (BOPTS) and 30 mm (30x165 mm AP-T) BT-type armor-piercing projectile at a distance of 500 meters (for both) at a BT meeting speed of 810 m / With
        angle (direction) of projectile approach: from the forward sector of fire ±30°, including sides; elevation angle 0°
        anti-fragmentation protection: detonation of a 155 mm high-explosive fragmentation projectile at a distance of 10 m; fragments approach direction: - 360° (circle); elevation angles 0 - 90°.[3] Fragment collision speed (20mm fragmentation simulator FSP) with armor 1250 m/s.
        1. -1
          7 July 2022 17: 44
          And where is the word "feathered"
          1. 0
            9 July 2022 15: 16
            Quote: Nafanya from the couch
            And where is the word "feathered"

            armor-piercing feathered sub-caliber projectile
      2. -3
        7 July 2022 17: 07
        I mean sub-caliber projectiles.
        1. -10
          7 July 2022 17: 46
          I mean sub-caliber projectiles.

          You can mean whatever comes into your head. But 30 mm feathered shells for rifled 2A42 and 2A72 do not exist.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
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          2. +14
            8 July 2022 06: 00
            Quote: Nafanya from the couch
            You can mean whatever comes into your head. But 30 mm feathered shells for rifled 2A42 and 2A72 do not exist.

            What do you think this is?


            ZUBR 11 for 2A42 and 2A72. In any case, this is how many sources on the topic present it. What are your arguments?
          3. +1
            8 July 2022 09: 59
            Quote: Nafanya from the couch
            You can mean whatever comes into your head. But 30 mm feathered shells for rifled 2A42 and 2A72 do not exist.

            So in 6 STANAG 4569, an armor-piercing feathered sub-caliber projectile is written in relation to a 30 × 173 mm shot.
            And this is a foreign shot, for brrrrrt GAU-8 and new 30 mm NATO guns.
      3. +2
        7 July 2022 18: 07
        Probably yes lol lol lol
      4. +1
        7 July 2022 18: 30
        Nafanya from a BOPS sofa to such a tool is economically unprofitable. The kinetic energy is too low, and the penetrating effect on alloyed armor steels is weak. Another thing is shooting at armor plates based on aluminum alloys.
        1. +6
          7 July 2022 18: 44
          in general, for a 25mm BMP gun, bradley bops are made by the Yankees and quite decent
        2. -5
          7 July 2022 18: 46
          Nafanya from a BOPS sofa to such a tool is economically unprofitable.

          So what am I talking about. 30 mm BOPS does not exist!
          1. +7
            7 July 2022 19: 03
            30 mm BOPS does not exist!

            It's time to do self-education - 30 mm BOPS happens. And it doesn’t just happen, but has long been in the ammunition load of foreign IFVs
          2. +4
            7 July 2022 19: 03
            It happens, sailor, it happens! Here the topic is not maritime, collectively I will not follow from your minuses. Or will you invite yours?
          3. +3
            7 July 2022 19: 19
            It has already been made for our 30 mm gun, it penetrates more than 100 mm of armor at a distance of 1000 meters.
          4. +4
            8 July 2022 09: 53
            At least there is a Czech BOPS for our gun and there is our experienced BOPS 30mm.
    2. +3
      7 July 2022 18: 37
      Disagree. The relevance of 30 mm caliber will remain in the army for a long time. 40 mm will not give anything new. But to supplement 57 mm and use both calibers - yes, you have to do it!
      1. 0
        8 July 2022 14: 27
        2 times more energy and 1,5 times more HE shell ... but nothing, of course.
      2. 0
        8 July 2022 15: 20
        40-mm may well give a projectile with a programmable detonation
      3. -1
        29 September 2022 11: 15
        40mm is needed, but only in certain machines, not general purpose. For example, a kind of flanking breakthrough machine, when suppressing enemy artillery and firing points, I fantasize it would be great to break through non-capital fortifications that were erected in order to "fix". And if you don’t make another infantry fighting vehicle / armored personnel carrier out of it, the car should turn out to be small and nimble with good booking. But these are my wet
    3. +1
      8 July 2022 08: 51
      From this gun they fired at the T55 from 1.5 km, everything that was outside was demolished, there were 2 holes in the gun barrel, a crack in the VLD.
      And yes, 45 would be better
    4. +1
      8 July 2022 09: 51
      And the main calibers of NATO autocannons have grown ... considering that their 30mm projectile is also more powerful than ours. Asking for a 35-50mm cannon based on this gun
      1. +1
        8 July 2022 22: 33
        Based on this weapon, I would not really like to see a continuation in larger calibers. If in the early 80s you had anything to do with loading this gun or had experience in transferring-switching the type of ammunition, you would have a different opinion. The same 2A72, from the same designers, according to descriptions and reviews is much more convenient to handle.
        1. +1
          9 July 2022 15: 06
          So, you need to restart the auto cannon ...... Take something more modern as a basis.
        2. 0
          29 September 2022 11: 18
          You can make a larger caliber with a lower charge and energy of the projectile, the barrel is shorter and of + controlled detonation in the list of shells, a wonderful anti-personnel gun should work. Again, if the size of the projectile increases only in caliber, then it will not be possible to suffer too much from a decrease in BC. And he fights against tanks with a pair of cornets on the tower. It just seems to me that such a caliber is exclusively anti-personnel, maximum against SUVs without armor or with weak armor (technical workers, dumbbells)
      2. 0
        13 July 2022 16: 33
        Do you know why NATO shells are always slightly better than ours in terms of armor penetration. Everything is simple. In NATO, for testing, armor plates are used from homogeneous steel of medium hardness, and in the USSR and Russia, from rolled armor homogeneous steel of increased hardness. Those. domestic samples are 20-25% stronger. Well, and accordingly, to bring the characteristics of penetration, Western data must be reduced by 20%. Or ours to add the same 20%.
        1. 0
          13 July 2022 19: 15
          In this case, they have had BOPS for 40 years already .... and with us it is just appearing
        2. 0
          19 August 2022 13: 44
          Is called heard ringing. "Plates" with a thickness of 50-60 mm or more, what increased hardness do they have relative to NATO? And what should be reduced by 20%?
    5. 0
      8 July 2022 11: 40
      In this case, penetration is not a problem. The mass of the volley will stop if not all, then very many armored targets.
  3. +10
    7 July 2022 16: 39
    Something the author did not mention the creators of the cannon, the outstanding designers of the Soviet-Russian school A. G. Shipunov and V. P. Gryazev.
  4. Eug
    +2
    7 July 2022 16: 51
    What I didn’t like very much was the presence on the market of foreign-made 30x165 shells with the best declared
    characteristics...
    1. +3
      7 July 2022 18: 02
      Well, our BR-11 was developed a long time ago for a 30mm cannon, something like 100mm at 1500m penetrates there, and it seems like at one time they wrote that he went to the troops, but maybe only with an experimental series, what the hell knows
      1. 0
        7 July 2022 18: 28
        If it exists, it is unlikely to appear during the current conflict. You can’t take a tank with it, and other enemy armored vehicles are taken with ordinary shells.
        1. 0
          7 July 2022 18: 41
          well, you can take a tank on board,
          I heard somewhere that they tried, sort of, to shoot at 54k in the forehead from this 30k in bursts. and she split the 100mm frontal plate on the tank
        2. +4
          8 July 2022 00: 26
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          You can’t take a tank with it, and other enemy armored vehicles are taken with ordinary shells.

          There was a case when the Bradley infantry fighting vehicle from its 25-mm caliber gun (M242 Bushmaster) completely disabled it by random shots at the stern of the Abrams tank (it broke the radiators (oil) of the engine through the grilles).
          It is also worth remembering that, for example, the side of the T-64 tank is 80mm (in the area of ​​\u70b\u20bthe engine XNUMXmm) But the bottom, which partially comes on the sides, has a thickness of XNUMXmm. The tank rollers are small, the gaps between them are large, these areas are clearly visible.

          So, to knock out a tank, a 30mm cannon can be enough for the eyes. Here is another problem - if only the tank did not see you first.
          1. +1
            8 July 2022 00: 56
            There was a case when the Bradley infantry fighting vehicle from its 25-mm caliber gun (M242 Bushmaster) completely disabled it with random shots at the stern of the Abrams tank (it broke the radiators (oil) of the engine through the grills)
            Why is there a 25-mm ... with another "Abrams" it was even better when it burned out from a hit in the Armed Forces of Ukraine with a 12,7-mm bullet from a DShK ...
          2. +4
            8 July 2022 08: 07
            If you read the theorists, then you can, of course, believe in the defenselessness of tanks before the fire of automatic small-caliber guns, but in fact .. In fact, cases of tank destruction in this way can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Something in these theoretical calculations is not right.
            Of course, massive fire from heavy machine guns can disable the optics of tanks, and there were such cases, but to believe in such abilities from an armored personnel carrier or even an infantry fighting vehicle, this is different.
            1. 0
              8 July 2022 11: 05
              Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
              If you read the theorists, then you can, of course, believe in the defenselessness of tanks before the fire of automatic small-caliber guns
              It was said:
              Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
              You can’t take a tank with it, ....
              To which the answer was given that such a possibility exists.
              And what about statistics?
      2. -3
        7 July 2022 18: 39
        It's fake. 30mm caliber 10 cm of armor will not work. A maximum of about 3 cm. Also not a little.
        1. +2
          7 July 2022 22: 43
          Quote: Glagol1
          It's fake. 30mm caliber 10 cm of armor will not work. A maximum of about 3 cm. Also not a little.

          The German 30mm BOPS has the same characteristics.
        2. 0
          20 September 2022 16: 05
          What is "fake"??? Can you define this word?
    2. 0
      13 July 2022 16: 34
      In NATO, armor plates are used for testing from homogeneous steel of medium hardness, and in the USSR and Russia, from rolled armored homogeneous steel of increased hardness. Those. domestic samples are 20-25% stronger. Well, and accordingly, to bring the characteristics of penetration, Western data must be reduced by 20%. Or ours to add the same 20%.
  5. 0
    7 July 2022 18: 36

    However, there are also disadvantages. So, 2A42 makes high demands on the carrier. The recoil impulse of this gun is short and reaches 20 tons.


    I wonder where this data comes from? And what kind of impulse are we talking about? Single shot?
  6. +3
    7 July 2022 18: 36
    3 clicks fire
    BUT I hung myself until I shook my hand
  7. -4
    7 July 2022 19: 03
    And why not a word about accuracy or its inconsistency with today's days. There is no reason to put on an infantry fighting vehicle more than 30 mm ..
    1. -1
      7 July 2022 19: 22
      With new fragmentation and sub-caliber ammunition, it will remain an effective and powerful weapon for BMP armored personnel carriers and vehicles as part of a combat module for a long time to come.
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. -1
    7 July 2022 21: 58
    I don't understand. A man expressed his opinion, and then immediately - a clown and shoot him.
    1. 0
      7 July 2022 22: 32
      Quote from AdAstra
      immediately - clown and shoot

      Yes, there are a lot of good people here. Yes
  10. +1
    7 July 2022 22: 47
    Quote from AdAstra
    I don't understand. A man expressed his opinion, and then immediately - a clown and shoot him.

    All this rearmament is pushed through by Rostec structures, and has no justification other than cutting funds for R&D. Therefore, expressing a stupid unreasonable opinion or dlb. , or just a paid rattle, and taking into account the current moment, a traitor. The 30-mm caliber is the perfect balance between the power of the ammunition and the rate of fire - which is why guns in the caliber of 23-35 mm prevail everywhere, in all countries !!! In addition, there is a BMP BMP- 3 of it (BMP-3) had to be built, and not to fence any garbage in the form of Kurgans and Dirivations.
    And what do we have in the troops of the BMP-1 and BMP-2.
    1. 0
      8 July 2022 10: 34
      Well, that's understandable.
  11. -3
    8 July 2022 00: 00
    There is an option to increase the muzzle velocity and range, reduce the deviation to less than 0,4m with the first shot, the queue must be forgotten for now. The wheeled AFV will hunt the M777, the dream of the Tiger.
  12. 0
    8 July 2022 01: 55
    Good article! Thanks to the author!
    I would like to wish to create shells with a remote fuse for this gun! So that, sitting in a trench, the Nazis would receive shrapnel in their ears, neck and palms, so that their prepared birds and anti-tank systems would break and be damaged, and fear would be panic at the sight of the terminator, so that they would run all the way to Poland!
    1. +4
      8 July 2022 06: 16
      Quote: Alexey G
      I would like to wish to create shells with a remote fuse for this gun!

      Yes, I would like them (programmable fuses) to appear in a real series. However, the physics of the process cannot be changed. The cloud of fragments from 30 mm is much less than that of 40, especially 57 mm. The ceiling for hitting air targets such as small UAVs (a very relevant characteristic at the moment) is much higher for 57 mm. So, the prospects for further development of the 30s are vague .... I think that over time we will remember 76-85 mm. Today the West woke up in terms of the rise of its defense industry. And the whole new BTT is being built with armor against 30x165 (judging by the announcements).
      1. 0
        8 July 2022 07: 54
        In the 57-mm caliber, it is already possible to use cumulative ammunition, and given modern means of observation and guidance, work on enemy armored vehicles in bursts along a hinged trajectory.
        1. +3
          8 July 2022 08: 39
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          taking into account modern means of observation and guidance, work on enemy armored vehicles in bursts along a hinged trajectory.

          Hinged trajectory - departure angle greater than 35 degrees. Those. this is used when firing from indirect firing positions. If you mean shooting from closed firing positions, then I think it’s an empty undertaking. Firstly, there is no one, because. for this, it is necessary to have in the MS units BUT trained in artillery crew programs and artillery officers at least from the MSR level, and secondly, to compose a howitzer in such a caliber is an economic absurdity. Thirdly, for such shooting at a moving point target, a guided / corrected projectile will be needed, which is not yet available in this caliber. hi
          1. +3
            8 July 2022 08: 53
            And not at all, but a sight or modification of the sight will definitely be required. Here is LShO-57, what do you think then? The same grenade launcher or low ballistics cannon being mounted on an infantry fighting vehicle. Shooting from a grenade launcher along a hinged trajectory does not bother in any way, but as soon as we put it on the equipment, for some reason it immediately becomes impossible. And firing bursts at a mounted one is like firing cluster munitions. The same fire on the squares, as well as from the AGS. Only the ammunition should not be purely cumulative, but cumulative-fragmentation combined action.
            And for a moving target, even the 152-mm "Krasnopol" does not work yet, you should not complicate the conditions to infinity.
            1. +3
              8 July 2022 09: 21
              Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
              Shooting from a grenade launcher along a hinged trajectory does not bother in any way, but as soon as we put it on the equipment, for some reason it immediately becomes impossible.

              Because a gun and a howitzer / LSO are two different things. With different appointments (each has its own). They should not be confused with each other.
              Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
              And for a moving target, even the 152-mm "Krasnopol" does not work yet, you should not complicate the conditions to infinity.

              But this is your proposal - to shoot at armored vehicles with mounted fire in bursts wink . And armored vehicles are a point and moving target (as a rule).
              1. +1
                8 July 2022 09: 29
                How is it not to confuse a cannon on an infantry fighting vehicle and a grenade launcher if they are, in many ways, the same thing? The 73-mm BMP-1 Grom gun and the SPG-9 Boot gun are practically the same, only minor changes have been made. So the 57-mm cannon on the Epoch combat module is a refinement of the LShO-57. Largely identical in ballistics products. If the LSHO-57 is intended for firing along a hinged trajectory, then a 57-mm cannon of similar ballistics may well work in the same way.
                And you don’t require training in AGS calculations according to programs for artillerymen, then why all of a sudden for firing from the same gun, but with an infantry fighting vehicle it becomes necessary.
                1. +2
                  8 July 2022 09: 46
                  Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                  So is the 57-mm cannon on the Epoch combat module

                  I am clarifying. When I talk about the need to change the caliber of a gun from 30 mm to 57 for an infantry fighting vehicle, I mean a normal gun with S-60 / AU-220M ballistics, and not a stump in the form of an LSO. Today, Derivation-Air Defense is being tested to combat UAVs. Such guns with mounted fire will shoot beyond the visibility of the BUT. LShO, AGS - shoot with mounted fire within sight and with the possibility of correcting aiming at visually visible gaps. This is the difference between AGS and D-30, for example ...
                  1. +1
                    8 July 2022 09: 55
                    Then you should consider the size of the ammunition. The S-60/AU-220M ballistic gun has ammunition with a cartridge case the size of a 76-mm gun of the T-34 tank from the Second World War. So, one should take into account a significant reduction in the ammunition load, that is, the gun, in fact, ceases to be automatic, so much will have to be saved on shots. "Derivation-PVO" is conceived as a good machine, but a loading machine has also been developed for it. And this is no longer an infantry fighting vehicle, there is no room for landing there, it eats up all the ammunition.
                    And to the visually observed gaps, in our time, drone surveillance has been added, this should also be taken into account.
        2. 0
          8 July 2022 09: 55
          You can work along a hinged trajectory and from a machine gun ......
          1. 0
            8 July 2022 22: 38
            It is possible, only the bullets will lose energy by the end of the trajectory, and there is no high-explosive or shaped charge in them. And explosive bullets, for such experiments, will not be singled out in large numbers, that's for sure.
            1. +2
              9 July 2022 15: 03
              They won't lose. Before the Second World War, they practiced in machine-gun platoons
            2. 0
              29 September 2022 11: 37
              bullets will lose energy towards the end of the trajectory

              Sorry, but why should bullets on a low ballistic trajectory lose energy? stop
              Listen, I did not serve, I studied everything on my own, but even I know that at a low ballistic trajectory (less than 45 degrees from the astronomical horizon), a bullet is dangerous throughout the flight. This is with high ballistics (45-90 degrees) the bullet loses energy in the final section of the flight.
        3. -1
          29 September 2022 11: 29
          Cumulative ammunition can also be made for 30mm, but its armor damage will be small. So, neither for 30 nor for 57mm, I consider the cumulative to be unnecessary. BZ is enough.
  13. +3
    8 July 2022 09: 03
    Unfortunately, the pursuit of versatility has led to the fact that now the BMP of the Russian Federation has the weakest gun.
    180 kJ versus 200 kJ for 30*173, the standard gun in the West. Moreover, the UK and Sweden already have 40mm, in general, the shot energy is about 350 kJ.

    The S-60 is too redundant, and in terms of the size of the shot, and in terms of recoil, and in terms of energy, 1400 kJ is simply not needed.

    My sofa opinion is a smoothbore 57mm 55-60klb with an energy of about 500 kJ. Such a caliber with such energy seems to me the ideal squad / platoon support guns.
    1. We reduce the charge by a factor of three, and throw 3kg 330 m / s as from a mortar, mounted shooting, or just direct fire. In fact, an 82mm mortar appears in every compartment.
    2. Need to shoot a drone/helicopter/airplane? 40mm subcaliber, with laser beam detonation. 1 kg at a speed of 1000m/s. Reach in terms of distance / height within the aisles of three to four km.
    3. Any enemy infantry fighting vehicle will make holes with a crowbar of 700 grams at a speed of 1200 m / s. It will obviously be more than 120-130mm at 90 degrees for 2km. In fact, at any real combat distances, any armored personnel carrier other than tanks will break into the silhouette. Trying to create armor for an infantry fighting vehicle to protect against such energy will result in elephants weighing over 50 tons.
    1. +2
      8 July 2022 09: 41
      If the gun in the 57-mm caliber is smoothbore, then the ammunition will either need plumage like mines, or a bottom gas generator with inclined nozzles. And then we need cumulative fragmentation ammunition. But I support the idea of ​​mounted fire from 57-mm guns, this is the way to go, only the implementation may be different.
      And the 82-mm automatic mortar "Vasilek" must be brought to mind, put on a more mobile chassis and finally equipped with cumulative fragmentation mines.
      1. +2
        8 July 2022 09: 58
        The main projectile for HE or BB autocannons ....... and rifling is needed there. Smoothbore is important for BOPS. there is always a very powerful charge on it, but how this will affect automation is a question. Especially if the shells are different in the tape.
        1. -1
          8 July 2022 11: 18
          Quote: demiurg
          Unfortunately, the pursuit of versatility has led to the fact that now the BMP of the Russian Federation has the weakest gun.
          Interestingly, since when did the BMP-3 with its guns (including the 2A70 with its 18kg high-explosive fragmentation projectile) begin to be considered lightly armed?
          1. +1
            9 July 2022 12: 31
            100mm broad, even low-ballistics squad in 99% of tasks is redundant. But it still puts on weight. Plus, BC eats up the reserved volume. Another minus is the 100mm ATGM. Which, whatever one may say, is worse than a simple Cornet.
      2. +2
        8 July 2022 10: 25
        It's the smoothbore. "Heavy" shot can be equipped with folding plumage. 40mm with controlled undermining, and a 15-20mm crowbar are generally easily supplied with plumage.

        There is another interesting idea here. If you take "heavy" ammunition, and spend, for example, 1 kg on load-bearing planes, you can get a shot planning for 10-15 km. And when throwing a full charge, I think it will be 20 km.
        At least the US Army achieved such a range during experiments with planning 82mm mines. Of course, there is no flight speed, and without flight correction you can forget about accuracy, but the fact itself is on the other hand. For example, the entire division, in the presence of corrected shots, can support any squad with fire.

        Well, yes, burst shooting will be a thing of the past. A maximum of 3-4 shots in a row, in principle, no more targets are needed.
        1. +1
          8 July 2022 14: 31
          Other things being equal with rifling, the OF is more powerful than that of a smoothbore.
    2. Fat
      +1
      8 July 2022 17: 57
      hi 2A42 in the countries of the Warsaw Pact were widely used, the Czechoslovaks themselves produced them ... Everything has been studied for a long time and the "potential adversary" takes this into account. Now the capabilities of this gun have been brought to the upper limit, for example, in terms of the number of shots before replacing the barrel, updated shells with updated plastic guide belts are used ... Perhaps there are still reserves of modernization, but the fact is that more powerful firepower is needed
    3. +1
      9 July 2022 20: 16
      Unfortunately, the pursuit of versatility has led to the fact that now the BMP of the Russian Federation has the weakest gun.
      180 kJ versus 200 kJ for 30*173, the standard gun in the West. Moreover, the UK and Sweden already have 40mm, in general, the shot energy is about 350 kJ.

      So yes, after all, we had 30x210 ..... But no, they unified ....
      1. 0
        11 July 2022 09: 22
        A maximum of 250 kJ would be pulled out. If you need more than four hundred.
        It's time for 45/50/57mm.
        1. 0
          11 July 2022 16: 48
          But who knows what they would have pulled out there ....
          If we suddenly assume rational-pragmatic solutions, this will not be quite the Union that was wink He might not have collapsed at all. feel
        2. 0
          29 September 2022 11: 56
          But what kind of irrepressible craving for an increase in caliber? This is not technological progress, technological progress is to make guns that can fire ammunition of greater length, respectively, greater power, range, accuracy. For some reason, it seems to me that some kind of hypothetical 30/300 projectile fired from a gun capable of withstanding its energy will break through remarkably everything that they came up with against 30mm BOPS.
          1. +1
            30 September 2022 06: 30
            Why bother with 30mm? The mass (and hence the energy) of a single shot is limited. 250, well, 300 kJ is even higher than the most daring theoretical calculations, despite the fact that you need about five hundred (calculate in a ballistic calculator to what speed you need to accelerate an arrow weighing two hundred grams to get such energy (and there is such a thing as accelerated barrel wear from increasing subcaliber speed)).
            Secondly, now the BMP-3 uses a separate gun for flat shooting. 50-57mm allow you to combine both barrels.
            Third, cheap ammunition with controlled detonation.
            1. -1
              30 September 2022 15: 31
              Mm no, I respect your opinion, but I fundamentally disagree with you, I still believe that it is possible and necessary to expand the capabilities of the ammunition. Moreover, sooo long ammunition can be used in a sliding and breech-type flap.
              1. 0
                30 September 2022 17: 58
                We are adults. Let's think logically. Do you need to increase the energy of the shot? This means that the powder charge will grow in any case, which means that the sleeve will still be healthy. One way or another, the arrow will have to weigh more than 500 grams in order to have an energy of 1300 kJ at a reasonable speed of about 500 m / s. Now a 30mm crowbar weighs about two hundred grams.

                In any case, the volume of the shot will be many times larger. But such a speed of the shot is not always needed. so why not change the speed to the weight of the projectile?
                1. 0
                  3 October 2022 08: 40
                  Here I partly agree with you, but again, you can increase the size in length, the sleeves too, and with the simultaneous detonation of the powder charge, if you place the gunpowder like in rockets, on the walls in sections, then the air needed for ignition will not be between the powder granules, and in the center almost along the entire length of the sleeve, and the explosive will not be in the form of granules, but in the form of a dense substance and will ignite much faster.

                  Regarding the projectile, the projectile can be and even much more useful to increase in length, since the energy will be transferred to a small area and again, even in the case of HE, the fragments will spread a little further from the point of impact, which means hitting a slightly larger area. The mass can be changed without increasing the size of the projectile, but using other materials.

                  PS> Regarding the speed, and who said that you need to be limited to 1300m/s? ;) For me personally, there are only two speeds - subsonic (any US, etc.) and "the more the better" laughing
                  1. 0
                    4 October 2022 06: 21
                    Regarding gunpowder, I am not ready to discuss, even there is no theoretical knowledge. But something suggests that the compaction of gunpowder, the idea is nothing. They try to keep the burning rate within certain limits.
                    A 30mm thick-walled sausage will not have a high-explosive action, but it will be such, since the flight speed and, accordingly, the pressure in the barrel are high.
                    And how do you imagine at least an analogue of a 60mm mine, that is, about a 2 kg projectile, in the form of a 30mm projectile?
                    1300 is already a lot, the barrel resource will be in the hundreds of shots. And then the cuts are eaten.

                    If you need to increase the energy of the shot, the best option would be to increase the caliber. Plus, options with the weight of the projectile and the amount of gunpowder allow you to have shots with different ballistics.
                    1. 0
                      4 October 2022 08: 24
                      Well, you again pull the "development goal" on the current realities. Of course, we are talking about a vector, not a finished projectile, and of course, all this will become applicable only after the appearance of the relevant materials, not earlier. And they will appear as they appeared before. The materials used in modern weapons differ from those used in weapons of earlier periods.
                      1. 0
                        4 October 2022 10: 36
                        Over the past 20-30 years, the barrel resource has not increased. And in the foreseeable future, the trunks will not become stronger. And gunpowder radically more energy-intensive will not appear. Though progress is possible.

                        You can increase the resource of the barrel, as well as increase the speed of the projectile. Only the projectile and the barrel will be gold, with platinum inlay.

                        In the west, the caliber of BMP guns is being increased with might and main to 35 / 40mm, with an option of up to 50mm. Tanks are also looking at 130-140mm. Because it's easier and cheaper.
                      2. 0
                        4 October 2022 14: 56
                        You must understand that a paper primer is cheaper than a brass or steel cartridge case with a bullet. And gunpowder, wad and bogey are cheaper than a paper primer. So, in order to save money, let's shoot balls from scrap using black powder and silicon fuse laughing
                        I'm exaggerating, of course, but I mean that what used to be considered fabulously expensive becomes cheaper over time.
  14. Owl
    +3
    8 July 2022 20: 16
    When we learned that our platoon at the GOS would be doing "practice" by shooting from the BMP-2, then everyone understood that the GOS would be handed over. OrdzhVOKU issue 1990.
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  17. 0
    9 July 2022 12: 50
    Quote: Mister X
    Did you chase pigeons with them?
    You would also add a rhyme about Mishka (AK 47) ...

    Of course, my youth is the last century, but I'm not so old ...
    Well, let's say "Mishka" --- Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov,
    I came up with my own AUTOMATIC in our hospital ...
    PS I ask my rhyme to the studio, but anyone can criticize.
    Even me..
  18. -1
    16 July 2022 03: 29
    Nice fur..
  19. 0
    17 July 2022 10: 23
    Bringing the gun to normal combat. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

    Suggestion: send a unitary cartridge with a laser pointer to the breech and look into the regular sight behind the mark. Enter the correction without leaving the car. The report is over.
    1. +1
      29 September 2022 12: 07
      It already exists and there are even cartridge simulators on Ali.
  20. 0
    17 July 2022 17: 46
    Quote: demiurg
    with detonation by laser beam

    They don’t undermine the laser beam, but program handset to the distance of the lift. Immediately after the departure of the projectile from the barrel. Further, the tube counts either the time or the number of revolutions of the projectile. And gives an impulse to the explosion. It is unlikely that you will agree, but nevertheless, I note.
  21. 0
    16 August 2022 13: 20
    It would not be easier to use the same cartridge case as the 30x165, but with a 35 or 40 mm bullet. 40x180 mm type SS for 30x173 guns.????
    1. 0
      16 August 2022 21: 13
      Quote: stankow
      The laser beam does not undermine

      But in vain, if an air target is illuminated with a laser beam and there is a photodetector on the projectile, then it will be easier than calculating the initial velocity of the projectile from revolutions, introducing corrections and programming the time of its detonation.
      1. 0
        29 September 2022 13: 01
        Nonsense, projectile flight deviations, as well as atmospheric conditions and obstacles in the form of camouflage foliage will make it possible to hit the receiver in one of 10-20 cases.
  22. 0
    22 September 2022 13: 26
    The author is a little mistaken, the Soviet armor-piercing shot on the BMP 2 normally penetrates the BMP 2D with additional armor for one and a half kilometers, and according to the performance characteristics of the shot, it was written 52 mm pierced in 60 degrees of armor