Mobilization ship for the Navy under sanctions

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Multi-purpose ship in small dimensions, with anti-submarine weapons and a towed hydroacoustic station - this is the maximum that can be built without an extensive program for real, and not fake, import substitution. Such a program will require many years, which are not

It would be foolish to assume that since the sanctions for Ukraine hit even the production of cars, as cargo, and cars, then they bypass shipbuilding. This is absolutely not true, and could not be true. And it didn't. It is worth taking a look at what these sanctions can turn out to be, and figure out what can be done. To do this, we will analyze the key programs in surface shipbuilding, which are guaranteed to be affected by the sanctions, and see if something can be done about it all.

It was - became


Let's say right away - the volume of the article does not allow to fully cover the issue, taking into account the state of affairs in the surface navy, and underwater. The submarine fleet is a special case and should be considered separately. This article is about the main projects of surface warships for the Navy, about what awaits them and what they will have to change to if we want to save the fleet.



The most important projects in military shipbuilding are project 22350 frigates and project 20380 and 20385 corvettes. In addition to them, small missile ships of project 22800 "Karakurt" armed with Caliber missiles should be in mass construction, a series of RTOs of project 21631 "Buyan-M" is being completed with the same "Caliber", but with virtually no air defense. Large landing ships of the improved project 11711 (in fact, a new project) are being built, and theoretically two universal landing ships of project 23900 should be built in the amount of two units. The last two are now also better to “bracket” and consider the situation around them later.

Everything else that the Navy is building is either non-combat ships, or auxiliary fleet vessels, Project 22160 patrol ships, or some boats, minesweepers, etc. - necessary, but not the main striking force of the Navy. Let's leave them aside for now.
Let's leave both series of RTOs for now, and focus on large ships by Russian standards - frigates, corvettes and landing ships.

First, what unites them all.

They all have something in common - diesel engines produced by the Kolomna Plant. Not the worst diesel engine, albeit inferior to Western counterparts, could be the main engine for the mass of warships, but ... turbochargers and parts of the cylinder-piston group are imported there and cannot be replaced by domestic counterparts.

And yet, according to informed comrades - forging the crankshaft and fuel equipment (mostly). Alas, like many other domestic engines, the Kolomna D49 is not entirely domestic.

What ships are they on? Project 22350 frigates use 10D49 with a maximum power of 5 hp each. s., in the amount of two units, one for a diesel-gas turbine unit, on corvettes - four 200D16 of 49 liters each. with., working through two reducers on two valoliny. The same "Corvette" power plant should stand on a couple of new BDKs.

But now Kolomna, apparently, will no longer be able to provide engines, at least for a while. Illusions that it is possible to replace foreign turbochargers, pistons and rings with our own must be discarded immediately - in Russia there is simply no technical ability to provide the required level of machining of products, there are no necessary alloys, automation and precision mechanics. In order for these problems to be solved, a separate state program is needed, in which there will be no place for all sorts of traditional Russian cuts, kickbacks, and most importantly, incompetence. But our state machine cannot get rid of incompetent personnel even in war conditions, so you just need to forget about Kolomna, period. With luck, some of them will be assembled from the available stock of components.


The unit, consisting of two 16D49 diesel engines and a gearbox, is half of the main power plant of the corvettes of projects 20380 and 20385. Now we have to say goodbye to them. Figure: JSC "Kolomensky Zavod"

An attempt to replace foreign components in diesel engines with those that can be manufactured in Russia will lead to a very significant decrease in power and reliability, and an increase in fuel consumption to values ​​when it will be necessary to significantly increase its stock on the ship.

Of course, Kolomna has some backlog, there are reserves on which one can work for some time, but sooner or later they will run out, and then the question of buying the necessary components will come up in all acuteness. But they do not circulate on the free market, in some cases there is only one manufacturer, and he will not allow mass sales of his products to the left.

Will the Kolomna Plant be able to ensure the import of the necessary products during the sanctions period in the required quantities? The question is open, rather no than yes.

And this problem closes the prospects for frigates, corvettes, and landing ships. They will be built as many as diesels will be received - a multiple of the number of engines required for each hull.

Most likely, most of the ships that are already in a high degree of readiness will receive their engines, but those that will need to mount a power plant in three or four years are already in question. As for the newly laid down ships, these will most likely have to be cut on the slipway, just later, when everything is revealed.

This is where I want to remember the lost years between 2016 and 2021 - the period in which the fleet did not order a single corvette, because it was politically impossible to recognize the failure of the 20386 project, which, like any trough being built in our country, was advertised as superweapon. Five lost years that we will remember in the next war, when it turns out that there are simply no ships in the Navy.

At the same time, the responsible leaders did not bring possible problems with diesel engines to the country's leadership. Here is what, for example, the head of Rostec Sergey Chemezov told the president:

“We have created a new marine diesel-gas turbine unit M-55R, this is a new engine that is installed on our frigates. This is our first Russian such engine. We are already mass-producing it."
Link.

Diesel 10D49 is part of this unit. I wonder what Mr. Chemezov will say when Kolomna has problems with imports?


Project 22350 frigate. The laid down frigates, apparently, will be completed, but in general it is better to say goodbye to them. Photo: Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation / Wikipedia

Someone may say that all these concerns are nonsense, since the D49 series has long been produced for railways, and was once completely domestic. So it is, but look at the power. 16D49, used on corvettes, with 16 cylinders produces a maximum power of 6 liters. With.

When Kolomna diesel engines were completely domestic, to remove 6 hp from one engine. With. it had to be made with a 000-cylinder, with a rather complex two-stage supercharging. Due to the thorough check of the build quality required to obtain such power, and the mass of non-standard parts, starting with the cylinder block, the engines were produced piece by piece. And the massive 20-cylinder 16D5 produced 49 hp. With. power instead of 4 for 000D5 or 200 for 10D49. These engines simply do not have enough power, a corvette with such engines will not be able to accompany a container ship, nor will it be able to catch up.

So there is a problem, but there is no solution. Kolomna will continue to be able to supply railways with diesels, current fleet projects - only as long as there is a stock of components or if, by some miracle, sanctions are not imposed on their supply to the plant.

But this is what amphibious assault ships, frigates and corvettes have in common.

Corvettes also have their own problems. One of them is a radar complex. The number of inaccessible imports there is such that against its background, both the submarine, and the Polyment-Redut, and everything in general, fade. If for military electronics it is usually possible to extract components using the methods described above, then with a product from Zaslon JSC story completely different, they managed to overcomplicate their really idle radar complex so much that the supply of components for it became a problem even before the start of the operation in Ukraine.

About what constitutes a multifunctional radar complex from "Zaslon", Maxim Klimov perfectly described in his article Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing. For obvious reasons, Zaslon does not disclose what difficulties the company encounters when obtaining components for its complexes, but they are really great. We can safely guarantee that Zaslon will not supply any complexes to those ships that have been laid down relatively recently. By and large, it will not bet on the majority of those currently under construction.

How then can one evaluate the laying of the new corvette of project 12 "Reasonable" on June 20385? And just like the lead ship of this project, the Thundering, where the key factors in the huge delay in deadlines were not only the “golden tower” of the IBMK “Barrier”, but also the imported power plant. At the time of the planned contractual delivery of the Thundering corvette (2015), if it were not for the refusal to supply the German power plant, the Barrier simply had nothing to even pull out to the coastal range. The delay in reworking the ship for domestic engines saved Zaslon and gave it time. It is obvious that they are hoping the same way now - the failure to meet the deadlines for the already supposedly "domestic" diesel engines will be inevitable, in the shadow of which they are going to hide all the problems of the IBMK.

In this situation, how to assess the actions (or rather, complete inaction) of responsible officials of the Russian Navy and Defense Ministry? Do they still think there won't be a war?

But that's not all.

As you know, the corvettes of projects 20380 and 20385 are equipped with a composite superstructure. It was she who melted so “greatly”, and the glass flew into the hull of the corvette “Agile” during the fire, about this in the article "On the alleged loss of the Provorny corvette during the fire on 17.12.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX". I don't want to panic ahead of time, but there is reason to believe that not all the components of the composites from which the superstructure of any of the corvettes is made are made in Russia and can now be obtained from abroad.

It takes at least several years to develop the right chemistry and test it to replace the right materials. It's time, money and some risk of failure. Let it be low.

As a result, the corvettes “arrive” from the diesel manufacturer, and from the Barrier with its wonderful masts, and from the Sredne-Nevsky shipbuilding plant.


Project 20380 and 20385 corvettes will also be impossible to build.

How will all this end? This will end with a whole bed of empty hulls on stocks, which will either not turn into ships in a reasonable time, or will never be completed at all.

With frigates, the situation is simpler, there the problem mainly rests on diesel engines, they are likely to receive them, for all the laid-down ships for which diesel-gas turbine units have not yet been manufactured, 8 engines are needed, two per ship.

For the BDK, again, most likely, they will also be able to hand over the power plant, but the corvettes from the totality of sanctions problems receive a specific blow in the stomach.


A prophetic picture - the hull of project 20386 was then "Mercury", the date of the formal laying was autumn 2016, and a small building nearby - "Strict" of project 20380, has been under construction since February 2015. The photo was taken at Severnaya Shipyard in mid-2021. Now with the filling of the buildings, everything will be much more complicated. Photo: Curious, forums.airbase.ru

And together with the corvettes they get NSNF under the breath.

The state of the existing OVR ships in the fleets is close to emergency, not to mention their complete obsolescence and actual loss of combat capability - even against a very weak enemy in the NVO, the use of the MPK pr. 1124M and MRK 1239 turned out to be impossible (and this with an extreme lack of ships).

If during the delivery of most of the corvettes in some more or less reasonable time, there was at least a technical possibility to deploy several shipborne search and strike groups at sea that could cover the deployment of SSBNs and protect strategic submarines from foreign hunter boats, now she won't be.

Yes, corvettes have limited anti-aircraft missile systems, they cannot repel air strikes and shoot down missiles, but they can somehow fight with submarines - there is a bulbous and towed sonar, an anti-submarine helicopter, torpedoes and anti-torpedoes, project 20385 has anti-submarine missiles. Everything - with different restrictions on use, everything - is significantly worse than Western counterparts (except for anti-torpedoes and torpedoes of the "Package" complex), but everything somehow works.

And now they just won't. There will be empty boxes.

Protection of the water area and the war of the near future


As has been said an infinite number of times, the most important from the point of view of the physical survival of the country is a reliable nuclear deterrence, and the main component of nuclear deterrence is to ensure the inevitability of a nuclear retaliatory strike.

For the inevitability of a retaliatory (not retaliatory, namely retaliatory) nuclear strike in Russia, the Navy, and specifically the nuclear submarine fleet, is responsible with its strategic missile submarines (SSBNs).

The author wrote in detail in the article how the roles are distributed within the strategic nuclear forces to ensure nuclear deterrence, as well as how important anti-submarine ships of the near sea zone are for ensuring the deployment of strategic submarines. Anti-submarine ships and nuclear deterrence. The issue is fully disclosed in it, and the need to have an inexpensive and mass-produced corvette that could be built in a large series and would become the basis of the anti-submarine forces of the Navy is justified there.

An explanation was also made there as to why such corvettes, and not aviation, should become the basis of domestic anti-submarine forces. Then such a corvette was understood as a rationally designed version of the corvette of project 20385 or, in extreme cases, 20380. Now you can forget about them.

In the Northern and Pacific Navy, at least four brigades for the protection of the water area are urgently needed, which, as in Soviet times, would include minesweepers and corvettes (under the USSR, there were MPKs instead of corvettes), the latter should have a strength sufficient for continuous patrolling on routes for the deployment of submarines to combat services, control of bottlenecks, and for an emergency exit to the sea to search on call and strengthen already deployed anti-submarine forces.

Another brigade is needed on the Black Sea. There are no strategic submarines there, but there is the Mediterranean Sea, Tartus nearby, there is Turkey with its powerful submarine.

A separate issue is the Baltic, which in the event of any war is guaranteed to become the most difficult of our theater of operations, as it always has been.

The approximate number of ships of the near sea zone that are capable of fighting submarines should be (excluding the Baltic, where you first need to decide on the shape of a future war and the forces for it) in the Northern, Baltic and Black Sea fleets of about 30-40 units. A certain number of ships should be in the Baltic.

For comparison: at the moment, the fleet has received 7 corvettes of project 20380 of various modifications (all of them are limited combat-ready, the last ones are equipped with a radar from the Barrier, almost incompetent), 2 more are being tested and one is being completed, and now - its fate is already in question.

Project 20385 corvettes were delivered - 1, laid down with minimal (for "Reasonable" - zero) chances for completion - 2, and the last 4th is "Agile", which burned down and, as they promise, will be restored sometime in the future. Apparently, when all the components for the superstructure and components for the 16D49 can be produced in Russia, and Zaslon will be honored to fulfill the terms of the contract for the supply of its miracle complex.

In total, 10 corvettes are guaranteed to go into operation and will go into operation (without air defense or with problematic air defense), 4 will freeze on the stocks with monuments, along with the project 20386 monument, and if some more newly laid corvettes join them, they will also join the ranks monuments. That is 10 instead of 40.

Against the background of the realization of such a prospect, someone in the bowels of the Main Command came up with the idea of ​​​​another trick - to set up unarmed "patrol ships" of project 22160 for the OVR and, based on the number of pennants (without mentioning what kind of pennants they are), report upward that forces enough for operations in the near sea zone. There is no strategy behind this, it is a simple “drank” mixed with the protection of their chairs from the introduction of more competent bosses into them, and an obligatory part of this “set of measures” is lying to the top political leadership, which has long and effectively cut itself off from any sources of information, except for reports in folders, in which it is clear what.

True, just a few days ago, however, there was a "drain" in the media that the Project 22160 patrol ships had not justified themselves and would not be built anymore. It took a war for this easy-to-understand fact to finally be recognized by someone.

Let's just say that nothing has been decided on project 22160 yet, this "sawmill" has too strong support, and everything can be. But even there there is a “bottleneck” - the same Kolomna 16D49 diesel engines (moreover, they were installed contrary to the requirements for naval warships in one compartment - that is, the only hit of even a small Brimstone-type missile leads to a complete loss of progress by such a ship), which are needed and for corvettes, and no one can get around this moment today.

So at least the corvettes are in order, at least the “patrolmen”, and the empty hulls on the stocks will be all the same.

At the same time, the need to ensure the combat stability of the NSNF has not gone away, and, in truth, there are not enough ships for other tasks, the same carriers of cruise missiles need more, and convoys, if something needs to be guarded, and landing units, and other tasks didn't disappear either.

All of this comes with budgetary constraints. Now the leadership of the country is definitely not up to the fleet. Before the fleet, he will be right after Ukraine, when the next enemy looms in front of the country. And it will be necessary to urgently take somewhere a lot of ships that can be built under sanctions and feasible for our future meager budget, and which will have sufficient combat capabilities.

This is what the Americans call the "perfect storm" - a combination of all possible adverse factors at their extreme. For fellow admirals, this storm is even more dangerous - among other things, the war in Ukraine could end the current culture of impunity. And for the state of the fleet they can take and suddenly ask. And what will they do then?

Let's give a hint.

Mobilization ship


We need a mobilization project that can meet the urgent needs of the Navy, which can be built right now. What should it be?

First. Since there are many tasks, and they are different, the ship must be multi-purpose. This implies the presence of both anti-submarine capabilities and air defense systems, offensive missile weapons, and artillery. So, the ship should be able to use cruise missiles of the Caliber family, anti-ship missiles Onyx and Zircon, anti-submarine missiles 91R / RT. This automatically requires the use of UKKS ships with 3S14 launchers.

Second. Since diesels are our bottleneck, the ship must have fully localized diesel engines. Gas turbines dramatically increase the cost of both the ship itself and its life cycle, and require an increase in fuel reserves on board. Nevertheless, the option using turbines will be discussed below, while we dwell on diesels.

Third. All ship systems must be serial or require minimal upgrades.

Fourth. Since quantity will be needed, factories located on inland waterways, for example, Zelenodolsk, which, after the delivery of the last ships of projects 21631 and 22160, will be left without work, should be able to build it.

The last factor requires to have a small draft. Small draft with the need to ensure seaworthiness in the Barents, Norwegian, Okhotsk and Bering Seas requires limiting the size of the ship to ensure seaworthy contours. The same is required by the condition to provide the ship with high speed.

Now we begin to define the shape. The only plant in Russia that produces marine diesel engines, the production of which is almost not affected by sanctions, is Zvezda PJSC in St. Petersburg, with their line of 56-128-cylinder (we will leave the rest for now) engines.

This fact immediately leads us to a ship in the dimensions of projects 21631 and 22800. The latter is generally equipped with these diesel engines, and specifically the M507D in the amount of three units operating on three shaft lines. Diesels on project 21631 are imported (Chinese on the last hulls), we ignore them.

We look at the composition of the weapon. Artillery - 76-mm cannon on "Karakurt", very good and optimal for such a ship. A 100-mm gun, as on the Buyan-M, is redundant for such ships.

Both projects have UKKS with a 3S14 launcher for vertical missile launch. On Buyans-M, you can’t shoot with anything other than Caliber, from Karakurt, too, but only because of the ship’s BIUS, the loads during Onyx or Zircon launches are incorporated into the design.

Air defense systems - on the Buyans they can not be considered as such, but the Karakurts have Pantsir-M, which, in fact, just needs to replace the firing radar with one operating in a different range - the standard one does not work well in rain, typhoon and and so on due to the non-optimal wavelength range for the ship. It's fixable and fast. Electronic weapons (REV) "Karakurt" allows you to fight with surface ships.

Mobilization ship for the Navy under sanctions
An example of weather in which Pantsir-M will not be able to shoot accurately. This is Kamchatka, and such weather is not uncommon there. The problem with the radar needs to be addressed.

Another option is the deployment of the Tor-FM air defense system (which provides both a lower cost and lower sanctions risks). And this issue should be considered, Tor-MF is ready for a series, it has a number of advantages, and most importantly, a disproportionately large localization in terms of components. In the case of Thor-MF, it will be necessary to install one 30-mm AK-630M artillery mount on the ship to defend the aft sector. You can shoot from it by aiming through the Tora-MF radar post.

A kind of multi-purpose ship is looming with REV, diesel engines and weapons, like the "Karakurt" (with a possible amendment to the "Tor-MF"), but with the addition of a sonar complex and the "Packet-NK" complex. Since we need both a shallow draft and high speed, it will not work to install a powerful bulbous or under-keel hydroacoustic station (GAS) on these ships, we will have to make do with towed and lowered ones.

The compact "Platinum-M" or its analogue can be considered as a winged one, but this question is open - the launch of the ship into production is critical, and it is not worth complicating its design. In addition, the winged GAS will reduce speed, and with it everything is not so simple, as will be discussed below. As a last resort, we need small GAS capable of giving target designation to anti-torpedoes and not spoiling the contours much, and they are also in the country.


The stern of a real MRK of project 22800 and an approximate possible location on it of launchers for torpedoes and anti-torpedoes of the Paket-NK complex.

The possibility of creating such a corvette was disclosed by M. Klimov in the article "A powerful efficient small multi-purpose corvette at the price of a fighter flight". True, it refers to a different composition of weapons on board, but then the economic prospects of the country were completely different, now we have to talk about a slightly simpler ship. Nevertheless, this article has proven the ability to pack everything you need into a small case. It also describes how the ship interacts with helicopters, the technique of refueling and supplying submarine detection equipment on board in the absence of a landing deck on the ship itself.

But here again the problem arises - these are the M507D diesel engines that the Karakurts are equipped with. PJSC "Zvezda" is in serious condition, and the maximum number of M507 engines that it can issue during the year is five. There are three of them on one "Karakurt".
This means that within two years no more than three ships can be laid down, 1,5 per year on average, and, in addition, one engine will go into spare parts every two years. This is not enough. Three ships in three years is 9-10 ships by the time when the aggravation of contradictions with the United States may approach an open conflict (2030s).

Restoring order at Zvezda is possible, and quickly, but this requires the guiding will of the state, backed up by smart management decisions, which is not yet possible in the current political conditions.

This means 5 diesels per year.

But there is a solution here too.

In February 2020, the author published an article "Karakurt" with a water cannon. Russia has every opportunity to build warships at the pace of China.” in the newspaper "VPK-Courier". From the passage below, in principle, everything is clear:

“But after all, three M507Ds are essentially six M504s, and four are already eight. M507 is, simply put, a pair of two M504s. Is it possible to get acceptable performance characteristics on the "halves" of the M507? It turns out you can.
Currently, multi-shaft water jet installations are becoming more widespread in Western countries. This is essentially a "battery" of water cannons, occupying the entire width of the vessel from side to side.
Such propellers are used so far mainly on high-speed ferries. For example, Silvia Ana, with a length of 125 meters, a width of 18, a total displacement of 7 tons and six engines with a capacity of 895 kilowatts, can reach speeds of up to 5 knots. Such a move is given to him by a multi-shaft water jet installation.
It is easy to calculate that for a ship the size of the Karakurt and the same displacement (less than 1 tons), a similar multi-shaft water jet system will provide comparable speed data with less power. Thus, instead of three M000Ds, four M507s can be used, each of which will work on its own water cannon. And we will solve the problem again, because even with the current capabilities of Zvezda PJSC for the supply of diesel engines, it will be possible to build up to two such ships a year without increasing the production of engines.
All that is needed for this is that on the newly designed small warships, instead of two- and three-shaft propulsion systems with propellers, multi-shaft water-jet ones are used.

And then one and a half ships a year turns into two ships a year, plus two engines into spare parts a year (and not one M507D in two years). And now this is already a normal pace, subject to stable funding.


The M507 engine, it can be seen that it consists of two identical sections-compartments working on a common gearbox. And it is true, these are two 56-cylinder engines working together. Photo: Dieselzipservice


And this is a single 56-cylinder compartment - the basis of both the M504 engine from one compartment and gearbox, and the two-compartment M507.

At the same time, all radio-electronic weapons are serial, for which, of course, it will be necessary to carry components according to gray schemes, but this is just solvable. All weapons are either serial or almost serial. The air defense from the Pantsir-M with the problems of the firing radar and the 76-mm gun resolved is more than worthy for a small ship (but it is necessary to change the range of the radar!). The ship will not have any bottlenecks that would prevent it from being built - regardless of the severity of the sanctions.

And many such ships can be built. Five years - ten corvettes. Ten years - twenty corvettes. Well, or up to 160 cruise missiles in a total salvo. If Zvezda manages to make more diesel engines, then more ships can be built.

At the same time, such ships may well operate in the far sea zone, namely: in the Mediterranean Sea, creating unbearable conditions for the western submarine and based on Tartus. A large number of such ships will "please" our partners with a total missile salvo and how many forces are needed to detect and attack them all.

Well, if the Buyans-M go to the DMZ, then these will be able to be present there without problems, but with a much greater effect. Escape, if necessary, to the Red Sea, to Port Sudan, for example, will also be possible without any problems, if there was a tanker nearby.

The extent to which such ships, if there were many of them, would be useful off the coast of Ukraine simply does not require comments - both the Pantsiri-M (as well as the Torah) and the Caliber are quite in demand there today.

Does the idea have flaws? Not critical. Firstly, there is no way to land a helicopter on board. But, as shown by M. Klimov, this is not an obstacle for, for example, refueling a helicopter from such a ship, if the fleet is able to master one. This is not an obstacle for taking a person on board a helicopter or delivering cargo to a ship by air.


Refueling a helicopter without landing, however, is not the Russian Navy, but you can learn how. And equip the ship with everything necessary for this.

The ship will operate in the near sea zone, where it will mainly be possible to ensure its interaction with helicopters based on the coast, or with anti-submarine aircraft, if they are still available by then.

The second possible disadvantage is speed. A rough estimate shows that a multi-shaft water-jet installation will not allow to win back an increase in the displacement and size of the ship relative to RTOs (we are adding a sonar system, torpedo weapons and personnel), while reducing the power of the power plant. The maximum speed will probably be in the range of 27-29 knots. This means that many enemy surface ships (USA, England, Japan) will be faster.

Here it must be clearly stated that this will not affect the fulfillment of tasks to ensure the deployment of NSNF, there, in general, most of the time you will have to walk with a towed GAS, and a few extra nodes at maximum power simply do not make sense, you will need a good search speed, and it will secured.
A submarine will not be able to move away from such a ship - with active “illumination” of the water area, its stealth is unimportant, and the 91R anti-submarine missile fired from the UVP 3S14 is in any case faster than any submarine and hits far.

When striking with cruise missiles, speed is not important.

When deploying ship groups anywhere, the transition speed is important, which the ship can maintain for a long time, but here it will be very high, 20 knots or more. In fact, it will be one of the fastest (in terms of moving to the designated area) ships.

That is, the fact that the ship’s speed will be less than that of the same Karakurt or Project 11356 frigates is basically not important.

As in the case of a helicopter, this disadvantage is not significant.

It will affect in two cases - when trying to track the ships of the United States, Britain or Japan, which almost all go faster than 30 knots, and when operating in such a dangerous situation, from the point of view of underwater and air threat, that an extra 2-3 knots of speed (will give the opportunity to go 3,6-5,4 extra kilometers in every hour or, for example, 10,8-16,2 kilometers in three hours at maximum power) will be critical.

Before such a war, you still need, as they say, to finish the game, firstly. And secondly, for future ships there is a high-speed option - two of the four water cannons will be driven by M-70 turbines, also mastered by the domestic industry. This will give about 33 knots of maximum speed, but with restrictions on the time of operation of the turbines, and at the expense of increased fuel consumption.

Turbines, by the way, make it possible to increase the number simply at an explosive pace - ten M504s per year, two per ship, and the same number of M-70 turbines, which can actually be obtained in the same period, make it possible to double the number of ships under construction compared to purely diesel ones.

But - due to the increase in cost.

One way or another, this fallback option can be kept in mind for the future, but for now there is a question of an imminent collapse in the number of surface forces, and decisions must be made that will allow building the fleet as quickly and cheaply as possible. Now that means an all-diesel ship.

Take a step forward


The situation requires rational solutions. Those responsible for shipbuilding must understand a simple thing - the time when you could promise and not deliver is almost over. The number of empty buildings on the stocks will sooner or later become critically large, while none of our potential adversaries capable of inflicting real harm on us, except for Poland and Ukraine, have land borders with us. The next war may turn out to be completely different, and the era of impunity for “respectable people” is ending, it’s time for them to worry already.

Who will build such ships? This will be able to do most of the factories in our country, the ship promises to be simple. However, stable funding will be needed.

Who will design such a ship?

It would be most logical to involve the Almaz Central Design Bureau in the work, at least no one has experience in designing light ships for the fleet comparable to the Almaz, and the example of the Karakurt RTO more than eloquently speaks of what level, Almaz can do the job: the corvette fiasco is more of a combination of the evil will of individuals and the era of chaos in our country, this is an exception that does not characterize the capabilities of Almaz.

But you need to click on them so that they do exactly the project that is needed, and as quickly as possible - in one and a half to two years.

With a strict setting of the task in Almaz, they will do everything, especially since the experience of creating Karakurt can be used here to the maximum extent - this is the decisive advantage of the Central Design Bureau.

Both the situation that is developing around our country and the career interests of people who will soon be asked about the timing of the commissioning of new ships, the provision of strategic nuclear forces and the increase in the total missile salvo of the Navy require a sharp increase in the power and size of the fleet in the face of a simultaneous increase in sanctions pressure and reduced funding . More ships and missiles for less money, and fast.

This means that responsible leaders just need to do this, and that’s it. Well, or new bosses will settle into their chairs, and very soon.
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  1. -9
    21 June 2022 05: 31
    First. Since there are many tasks, and they are different, the ship must be multipurpose. This implies the presence of both anti-submarine capabilities and air defense systems, offensive missile weapons, and artillery. So, the ship should be able to use cruise missiles of the Caliber family, anti-ship missiles Onyx and Zircon, anti-submarine missiles 91R / RT. This automatically requires the use of UKKS ships with 3S14 launchers.
    It's clear. For all the good, against all the bad. But this is not possible. I think the ships should have a weapons compartment, into which the warhead plant is loaded, according to the order. Multipurpose, yes, it can perform different tasks, but not in the best way. recourse
    1. +7
      21 June 2022 08: 43
      Alexander also forgot about such an important factor as the ability to use all these weapons. Whether we like it or not, 22800 is only 800-900 tons, which in the future can increase to 1,5-1,7 thousand tons. This is extremely small to ensure the correct operation of the listed systems in rough conditions (which is not so rare in our latitudes). Roll dampers, of course, will partly solve this problem, but this is not a panacea. The only way out is to create larger surface ships, which have greater inertia, and therefore better compensate for pitch and roll. All this leads us to the need for the mass creation of ships with a displacement of at least 3-4 thousand tons. But, as Alexander correctly noted, very serious problems will soon arise with the power plant for such relatively large ships. How to be? Obviously, China is not in a hurry to help us in this matter, and there are hardly any extra financial resources to feed foreign industry, which means that, as always, you will have to rely on your own strength. Is there a way out of this stalemate, in addition to what the author suggests?

      Actually there is.

      We are accustomed to somehow dismissively treat the boiler-turbine power plant, considering it to be something archaic, unreliable and unproductive. In many respects, this opinion stems from the unsuccessful experience of operating the destroyers pr. 956, which, in the conditions of the systemic crisis of the state, were not provided with proper care and attention to water treatment. In fact, the boiler-turbine plant has very decent efficiency indicators and high maintainability, which for the most part does not even require highly professional training, and therefore (if there is a repair stock of tubes) it can be done either by the crew itself or by the forces of the floating workshop specialists (although I don’t know if the composition of our fleet such objects). The Special Design Bureau for Boiler Building, which was once engaged in the manufacture of boilers for the Russian Navy, has not gone away and is still located in St. Petersburg, although it mainly manufactures piece products. However, this can now be said about almost all engineering for the needs of the Navy. At the same time, the plant, on its own initiative, developed modern models of boilers using an automatic control system that ensures the operation of the boiler and the turbocharging unit in automatic or remote modes without a constant watch, which greatly facilitates the use of these installations. In addition, as part of the order for the restructuring of the aircraft-carrying cruiser "Baku" pr. 1143.4 into the Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya, the plant adapted its boilers for use with diesel fuel, which favorably affected the efficiency of this type of power plant.

      So, as we can see, if you wish, it is still possible to find an alternative to diesel and gas turbine engines. Another question is which ships should be equipped with CTU. It is clear that these should not be the most advanced ships of our Navy, because. the complexity of manufacturing each individual unit will stretch the series for a significant period of time. This means (here I fully and completely support Timokhin) these should be ships that have already proven weapons, relatively cheap and massive. The only frigates that fall under these criteria are the ships of project 11356. Yes, a little archaic, without beveled sides and other stealth technologies, but simple and relatively inexpensive. At the same time, they have all the necessary range of weapons that Alexander listed (especially if we still equip them with a normal GAS and BGAS), and full-fledged medium-range air defense + very good living conditions for the crew, which cannot be said about corvettes or RTOs. At the same time, the release of these ships does not at all imply the abandonment of the construction of the same Karakurts, or destroyer-like frigates 22350M, completely built into the niche between them.
      1. +1
        23 June 2022 01: 49
        Fully agree about larger cases good
        After all, the cost of a hull is only about 10% of the entire ship.
        And with boilers the idea is also good.
      2. -1
        30 July 2022 08: 17
        Dante, as VAM wrote at the air base in the topic about 956 destroyers, the problem is systemic.
        "About the quality of the repair. If, during the repair of the boiler, some slovenly worker, cutting off, for example, stuck bolts for fastening perforated shields in the steam manifold, did not cover the holes of the tubes of the boiler pipe system, then at least a few trimmings of these bolts (or even several tens!) definitely fell into the tubes. It’s good if they fell shallow, and you could see them from the collector and get them out. Worse, if they fell deep, and you couldn’t see them. Then - in 100% of cases, a violation of the volume of water or steam circulation in these pipes, overheating of the walls and then - the failure of the pipe (read - the boiler) at the most inopportune time. Of course, it must be said that the personnel are obliged to control the repair process, but here we are just smoothly moving on to that very human factor. Not it's not a secret for anyone that, along with the tendencies of the growth of indifference in society in the 80s, this same indifference, regrettably, grew both in the army and in the navy.But this is only part of the trouble.There are many times on the forum It was learned that in the late 80s, early 90s, lieutenants came to the fleet with an insufficient supply of knowledge. But let's look objectively. Yes, among them were both indifferent people, and those who, in perestroika times, thought more about commerce than about service. But what about the rest who wanted to serve? For those who don't know, I'll tell you a little.
        How were lieutenants prepared for service until the mid-80s? At the school they had a full-fledged, operating boiler-turbine power plant! It is a power plant (!), and not a set of operating installation mechanisms, as in a training center for training personnel. And let it be an installation with a boiler KVG 57/28 and GTZA TV-10 with TFR pr.42. But during the operation of this installation, it was possible to understand, feel, feel all the interconnections of units and assemblies! It worked out actions in various operating situations, emergency situations and modes of operation, etc., not to mention simply commissioning and decommissioning the installation. And how they worked out! 4th and 5th course for several dozen (EMNIP - in the region of hundreds of hours!). Moreover, EVERYONE repeatedly stood watch at EVERY combat post - from a simple mechanism to a mechanical engineer on duty! And so, I repeat, dozens of times. And on the part of the teachers, various inputs were only pouring in - this, that, etc. failed. Plus a training simulator. In fact - the same combat posts, only not active, but a sort of imitation - the instrument panels of combat posts (from the mechanism to the post of energy and survivability). And all the same - a kind of "cold" watch at each combat post, with a constant change of posts and introductory from teachers. And teachers tough (if not cruel) asked for knowledge in the specialty. Finally, when a cadet was still arriving for training practice in the fleet, he got on ships that went to sea (albeit not as often as they wanted, but still went out). And therefore, by the time he began his lieutenant service, a graduate of the school, even if he does not care (there were some, why hide it), had some operating experience.
        What happened next? Then (in 1986 or 1987, I don’t remember exactly), the old installation was dismantled. The intentions were good - they had to mount the installation of the 956 destroyer. But here the collapse of the country began, and nothing was mounted. What happened? By this time, ships were less and less likely to go to sea, so many cadets also could not gain experience in practice. Here is the result: if the commissioning of the ship's power plant becomes something like an emergency, and some kind of emergency situation is akin to the end of the world, then how can it be operated normally? And how to train sailors and foremen? But high-pressure boilers also require strict adherence to the regime of chemical water treatment.
        The result of my protracted monologue: yes, the human factor is largely to blame, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to blame officers, midshipmen, foremen and sailors for this. This is the same systemic crisis.
        If there is devastation in the country, then whether we like it or not, there will be devastation in the fleet. TO THE GREAT SORRY"
    2. -1
      22 June 2022 08: 50
      Multi-purpose sounds nice, in fact, a specially sharpened ship is more efficient and cheaper. Just a boat carrying missiles would fit under the calibers, such a ship does not need combat power at all, air defense is probably needed because the air moves quickly. Plus, there may be minimal ways to deal with submarines, because they can appear who knows where, although if it is expensive, then this is not necessary either.
      1. +2
        27 June 2022 15: 23
        itself is cheaper, but this means that we will need to build not 1 ship, but 2, and therefore the savings turn into expenses
  2. +18
    21 June 2022 05: 32
    In this situation, how to assess the actions (or rather, complete inaction) of responsible officials of the Russian Navy and Defense Ministry? Do they still think there won't be a war?

    ...and higher management.
    And now the Stalinist methods of the late 30s - early 40s do not seem so harsh and cruel. Is not it? Nothing changes. Even Saltykov-Shchedrin spoke about this.
    It is sad that the leaders are not puzzled by the development of industry, real import substitution. For some reason, now the Chinese have to build and sell everything to them. And we both downloaded, and we will download resources abroad. It doesn't matter where. It's just easier for them.
    And about the leadership of the Navy - they are the least asked. Use what is given. Although there are enough leftists. Need real estate in the capital? Move to Peter. It will take the Admiralty - they will be evicted to Kronstadt, as they are trying to do with educational institutions. And what to expect after that?
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +5
        21 June 2022 11: 38
        Quote: bayard
        So before the REV, when domestic shipyards were built for a long time and expensively (the battleship "Borodino" cost about 15 million rubles), we built the "Retvizan" for 8 (EIGHT) million rubles, and much faster than in the Republic of Ingushetia.
        But they could build TWO of these in the same time.

        Hehehe ... domestic shipyards were also not all the same. Remember the magnificent example of the construction of "Peresvetychi" by the state-owned Admiralty and the semi-state-owned Baltic Plant (accepted to the treasury, subject to the preservation of the previous production management procedures). The factories began construction at the same time - "Peresvet" and "Oslyabya" were laid down on November 9, 1895. And the result? In the time before the RYAV, the Baltzavod built and handed over the RIF and "Peresvet", and the conditionally same type "Victory", and both BRs were in time in the Far East before the start of the war. And the Admiralty barely tortured the Oslyabya, which, moreover, had not yet managed to reach Port Arthur.
        In addition, domestic shipyards had one Achilles' heel - they were forced to obey all the initiatives of the naval chiefs and the ITC. Which famously changed the project during construction, and even in terms of already assembled structures and mechanisms. And this is wasted time and money for the development and approval of new drawings, re-ordering, manufacturing and delivery, installation. And often before the completion of the changes, other work could not be carried out. Foreign shipyards fought off such innovations simply: everything that is not included in the TOR and an agreed set of drawings can only be done for an additional fee. But the contract price has already been approved and agreed upon. Yes, at the same time, useful changes were often cut - but the construction time and price were kept.
        1. +2
          21 June 2022 21: 12
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Hehehe ... domestic shipyards were also not all the same. Remember the magnificent example of the construction of "Relight" by the state-owned Admiralty and the semi-state-owned Baltic Plant

          Domestic shipyards then only learned to build ships of this class and could not compete in pace and quality with English shipyards. And the types of ships were chosen on the basis that Japan would not have a modern fleet.
          But Japan built the ships of England (and two cruisers France and Germany). And they built it very quickly. As a result , Japan had a window of opportunity of half a year -- a year , which it took advantage of .
          A spoon is ALWAYS the way to dinner. And Japan had it, but RI did not.
          And again the same rake.
          Same methods, same excuses.
          Then the "anglophiles" were engaged in sabotage ... and now?
          And what kind of Fleet can we talk about when all the contracts for the construction of ships turned into a sinecure without any responsibility for what was entrusted?
          No engines?
          Who's to blame?
          Who is punished?
          What measures have been taken?
          What alternatives are considered?
          And if this is true with marine diesel engines, then no fleet will be built by 2030 either.
          And if the problem is really so deep and unsolvable, then switch to gas turbines and electric propulsion. For with gearboxes, the situation is no better.
          Well, as for the components for diesel engines ... I still hope that a good supply was made ahead of time.
          1. +1
            21 June 2022 21: 16
            Quote: bayard
            switch to gas turbines and electric propulsion. For with gearboxes the situation is no better

            I love amateurs ... so many fresh ideas, all at once, and for free good
            1. 0
              28 June 2022 15: 19
              but the question .. the whole article boils down to two points, that there is a beautiful Zvezda and water cannons and that Kolomenets will not be able to solve the problem of components, although given the fact that we have half of the fleet under construction designed for their diesel engine, in any case, we need to solve this problem
          2. +3
            22 June 2022 17: 05
            Who is punished?

            Switchmen are now being punished, and "respected people" are simply being transferred to a commanding chair in a neighboring department.
            The main thing is personal loyalty to the patron, not competence.
            1. +2
              22 June 2022 20: 51
              Here I am about that.
              With such a quality of management and approach, a direct path to the new Tsushima. And the loss of the Black Sea Fleet in this conflict is proof of this.
              Will the lessons of Destiny be realized?
              1. +2
                22 June 2022 21: 01
                Hardly. request
                After all, an organic part of modern power is nepotism, fraud, negative selection of leading cadres.
                IMHO, without transparency, there will be no public control. And now it is only closing and secreting more and more, opening up even more opportunities to “master” money without results.
    2. -2
      21 June 2022 17: 27
      The first thought that came to me at the beginning of reading! Lavrenty Pavlovich, come back! Interestingly, the cursed, with the "inefficient economy" of the USSR had a powerful and balanced fleet, and democratic Russia, in fact, brought cast-offs, but can not create anything starting with engines.
  3. Eug
    +4
    21 June 2022 05: 35
    An interesting option. I have always advocated, relatively speaking, the most simple and, accordingly, highly reliable "skillfully riveted troughs" (this applies not only to the fleet, but also to aviation, the automotive industry and much more, so sailors, no offense, by the term "trough" I mean not a ship, but some generalized technical product), and not for "wunderwaffles". VF, as for me, should also be, but as experimental and promising research SAMPLES.
    1. -5
      21 June 2022 08: 20
      competently riveted troughs" (this applies not only to the fleet, but also to aviation, the automotive industry

      Well, everything worked out here - Lada "Granta" crying
      1. +1
        22 June 2022 07: 17
        Lada Grant switched to Euro 2 without ABS and airbags. Still no certification.
        1. +1
          22 June 2022 17: 07
          The car that our auto industry deserves.
          which he can produce.
          And people .. will go. We went to Kopeyka, Shesterka.
  4. +6
    21 June 2022 05: 40
    Who will design such a ship?
    - there is a second question, how much will it be designed? And how much then to discuss and decide? And then build?
    1. +2
      21 June 2022 06: 00
      Quote: faiver
      And how much then to discuss and decide? And then build?

      in my opinion, with our promptness, this is a key problem ... in 5-7 (at best) years, any concept can become outdated, or simply become unnecessary, you need to work for a future war and not for the past.
    2. +1
      21 June 2022 15: 57
      So if everything is so bad with shipbuilding, as the author writes, then it is better to spend these funds not on "empty ship hulls", but on new regiments of naval aviation (MA) based on the Su-30SM2 and additional coastal defense missile brigades based on the Bastion missile defense system with Onyx and Zircon.
      In terms of efficiency, combat capabilities, cost, production time - a combination of MA + DBK will be much more effective in protecting against aggression from the sea than ships with incomprehensible combat characteristics and even more incomprehensible terms for commissioning the Navy.
      1. +6
        21 June 2022 16: 33
        neither the Su-30 nor the Bastion DBK can fight with submarines, we need about fifty anti-submarine inexpensive corvettes, with intelligible air defense, we need them yesterday. That's why I write regularly that it would be nice to buy at least a part from the Chinese, they have a run-in small corvette, they have collected 7 of them in 72 years.
  5. +7
    21 June 2022 05: 51
    Mobilization ship for the Navy under sanctions

    The USSR, after the civil war and in conditions of global isolation, was in much more difficult conditions, but was able to rise and turn into a superpower. It all depends on the personnel, a big "cleansing" is needed.
    1. +17
      21 June 2022 06: 12
      First of all, we need a new head of state, because it was the cadres that he gathered and which he led that everyone and everywhere failed.
      1. 0
        21 June 2022 06: 30
        but how to unite? Yes, my friend, you are one step away from the "enemy of the people" and the "Western hireling" ...
      2. +4
        21 June 2022 10: 42
        Exactly, otherwise we will continue to watch this dull shit under fairy tales about "spaceships plowing the expanses of the Bolshoi Theater"!)
      3. +3
        21 June 2022 11: 38
        But what is it that pulls you into “slavery” so much, and all the hope that someone will come and do everything, we need a system in which those who make decisions are directly dependent on those who “pay for their decisions”, implement this can be done by introducing term limits (for example, the president, governor, head of the FSB/MVD, a maximum of two terms of four,) and general elections.
        Now (it was the same in the USSR, and before that in the Republic of Ingushetia), those who make decisions live the same way as they did before, and those who really feel the effectiveness of these decisions do not have any opportunity to legitimately influence the former.
        1. 0
          27 June 2022 08: 02
          It's the System. But not everyone understands this.
      4. +3
        21 June 2022 17: 29
        Do not rock the yacht!)))
        1. 0
          27 June 2022 08: 01
          We don't have time to swing! (V.V. Putin)
    2. +4
      21 June 2022 06: 33
      Quote: riwas
      It all depends on the personnel, a big "cleansing" is needed.

      And who will clean? With all due respect to the guarantor, before Stalin, he is like before China in a well-known position. And the philosophy of "not thirty-seventh" is not very conducive to purges.
      1. +2
        21 June 2022 11: 46
        Whom Stalin cleaned up there, all these Khrushev, Malenkov, Molotov, Kaganovich, etc., passed normally for 37-38 years.
        Moreover, all these purges with short trials and the execution of the sentence on the same day, it's just a squabble of spiders in the bank and the elimination of competitors, and the most successful survival strategy was to please the Leader in every possible way or be a “clown”, excellent negative selection.
        1. +2
          22 June 2022 07: 57
          Quote from: stirrer
          ... all these purges with short trials and execution of the sentence on the same day, it's just a squabble of spiders in the bank and the elimination of competitors and the most successful survival strategy was to please the Leader in every way or be a “clown”, excellent negative selection.

          During the perestroika period, there was such a printed publication, Vedomosti of the Central Committee of the CPSU. Or "News of the Central Committee of the CPSU"? It seems like such a name, you need to look at the cover, I now have several piles in my dacha. Published in the late 80s and early 90s. Such thick numbers, the format of the magazine "October", "Change", etc. And in them, at the end, at one time, the minutes of the meetings of the courts over the enemies of the people were published. The essence of the action is that the commission judges the enemy of the people, issues a conclusion and sends it to Stalin for signature. Stalin writes "Are you sure that this is an enemy of the people?". The commission answers - yes, exactly. Stalin then imposes his resolution. Then suddenly a little man falls out of the commission and he is judged as an enemy of the people by his former colleagues, and thus this commission is constantly updated. Really like spiders in a jar.
    3. +7
      21 June 2022 10: 58
      in conditions of global isolation

      In the conditions of "global isolation", Mr. Albert Kahn designed 521 objects in the USSR, including a blacksmith shop in the same Kolomna ....
      And he was just one foreigner out of 80 thousand, including 18 thousand Americans who came to the USSR to industrialize ....

      How much can these tales about "isolation" be poisoned? ...
    4. +3
      21 June 2022 11: 34
      The USSR was not in economic isolation, the Americans did industrialization, in the 50s the British sold a jet engine, in the 60s they imported chemical equipment. industry, more than 600 foreign companies took part in the construction of KAMAZ.
      And the USSR is just an indicator that it is impossible to do everything alone and all the time lived in the paradigm of “catching up with overtaking”, while lagging behind every year.
    5. +8
      21 June 2022 11: 49
      Quote: riwas
      The USSR after the civil war and in conditions of global isolation was in much more difficult conditions

      Here's what it looked like world isolation USSR for 1934 (and this is taking into account a significant reduction in the number of agreements due to the exhaustion of the budgetary funds of the USSR):
      List of valid foreign technical assistance agreements for the People's Commissariat for Heavy Industry of the USSR

      Italy RIV - 1st State Bearing Plant (bearings)
      USA Ford - Automobile them. Molotov in Gorky (cars)
      England BSA - Moscow Bicycle Plant (bicycles)
      Germany Demag - Central Bureau of Heavy Engineering (CBTM) (cranes and hoisting devices)
      Germany Demag - CBTM (rolling mills)
      Switzerland Sulzer - Soyuzizel (diesel)
      Germany Man - Kolomna Plant (diesel)
      Germany Erhard and Semmer - Voskhim (compressor)
      Germany Stock - plant them. Kalinin (twist drills)
      Germany Krupp - Special Steel (quality steels)
      England Taylor - Trubostal (seamless wheels)
      USA Coppers - Giprokoks (coke ovens)
      Germany Demag - Magnitostroy (rolling shop)
      France French Aluminum Company - Glavaluminiy (construction of the Volkhov and Dnieper aluminum plants)
      Germany Miege - Zaporizhstal (electric furnaces)
      Germany Mitke - Gintsvetmet (Faynzink)
      England Metro-Vickers - WET (high-power turbine and electrical engineering)
      Switzerland Scintilla - Electrical Plant (Magneto)
      USA Autolight - Electrical Plant (electrical equipment for automotive tractors)
      Italy Omodeo - Hydroelectric Project
      Sweden Lubeck - Battery Trust (Alkaline Batteries)
      USA Nitrogen - Soyuzazot (ammonia plants)
      Germany Ude - Soyuzazot (nitric acid, montan, nitrate, methanol, ammonium nitrate)
      Norway Electrokemiska - Special steel (electrodes)
      Italy Eternit - Soyuzasbest (asbestos-cement pipes)
      France Schlumberger - GAMES (electrical intelligence)
      USA Curtis Wright - Aircraft Trust (Aircraft Motors)
      Fiat Italy - Plant No. 120 (Foundry Aircraft Plant)
      Italy Ansaldo - factory "Bolshevik" (autofretage and lane guns)
      USA Sperry - Electrical Plant (specialty)
      Germany Deschmag - Central Design Bureau of Shipbuilding (TsKBS) (shipbuilding)
      Italy Ansaldo - TsKBS (shipbuilding)
      Germany Bauer - TsKBS (marine shipbuilding)
      1. -4
        22 June 2022 07: 23
        All this went to the USSR, and not as foreigners built today for profit for themselves, their loved ones, but as they smelled of fried, they fled, sparkling with their heels. Yes, and with some kind of conditions there, such as a ransom back.
    6. +3
      21 June 2022 16: 38
      Cleaning. Who will clean and why? Do you want to encroach on the corps of those close to you? Or swap one close for another? We now have the same vertical formed as during the temporary detention center. True, without reliance on party organs.
    7. -1
      23 June 2022 18: 28
      The USSR was not in total world isolation, built hydroelectric power plants and factories with the Americans and launched industry at the cost of peasant lives, taking bread from people for export.
  6. +4
    21 June 2022 05: 53
    In the meantime, import substitution does not work, you can sign a contract with China and get twenty corvettes a la 2A in 3-056 years. But this will not happen, we can spend hundreds of billions in Western banks, but we can’t spend money on real ships ....
    1. 0
      21 June 2022 08: 48
      If you correctly sign a contract (including localization and loading of our production facilities), then this is acceptable.
      1. +4
        21 June 2022 10: 43
        )))))))))) In today's and yesterday's conditions, China will never sign such a contract!
        1. -4
          21 June 2022 14: 13
          what will stop him?
          1. +3
            21 June 2022 16: 35
            He does not need it, they are the factory of the world, they do everything at home. Moreover, as soon as the war began, the Chinese do not even want to supply components - "buy finished products from us.")
            1. -3
              21 June 2022 16: 50
              I think you are wrong
              1. 0
                21 June 2022 17: 09
                You think, but I know!)
                1. -4
                  21 June 2022 17: 16
                  yes, yes, every cook in our country knows how to run the state bully
                  1. +4
                    21 June 2022 17: 28
                    Everything is superficial with you, "I think" you understand.)) "Am I trembling or have the right?")
                    And here is how it sounds in the original, the article “Will the Bolsheviks retain state power?” (1917)

                    “We are not utopians. We know that any unskilled worker and any cook are not capable now of entering into government. But we […] demand an immediate break with the prejudice that only the rich or officials taken from rich families can govern the state, carry out the everyday, daily work of government. We demand that public administration be taught by conscious workers and soldiers, and that it be started immediately, i.e., all working people, all the poor, should immediately be involved in this training.

                    Learn and gain knowledge!
  7. -11
    21 June 2022 06: 00
    Cut, beat me but:
    A kind of multi-purpose ship is looming with REV, diesel engines and weapons, like the "Karakurt" (with a possible amendment to the "Tor-MF"), but with the addition of a sonar complex and the "Packet-NK" complex. Since we need both a shallow draft and high speed, it will not work to install a powerful bulbous or under-keel hydroacoustic station (GAS) on these ships, we will have to make do with towed and lowered ones.
    Apart from diesel engines and AU 76,2 mm, the author describes a heavy ekranoplan. Throw the Mosquito launcher from the Lun, install the UKKS (hull and stability allow), install the Tor in a separate version - an attack ship with self-defense air defense and already installed radars is ready. We leave the "Thor" and the radar, throw out part or all of the UKKS, put the towed GAS and TA, and in addition the RGAB (speed allows you to arrange) - the anti-aircraft defense ship with self-defense air defense is ready, invulnerable on the go to torpedoes and slightly vulnerable to anti-ship missiles.
    Range at full speed of 2000 km (500 km) and cruising (440 km) of 3000 km. autonomy min. 5 days. Serial, completely domestic engines, and not necessarily new ones - capitalized! Seaworthiness for takeoff and landing 5-6 points and maximum seaworthiness of at least (not less!) 8 points (trimaran), draft of 2,5 m. And all this at a cost (without weapons) - comparable to the cost of the Il-76 (one !)
    1. +11
      21 June 2022 06: 10
      this crap will first be designed for ten years, and then they will build the same amount, and ONE ....
      1. -8
        21 June 2022 06: 23
        Quote: faiver
        this crap will first be designed for ten years, and then they will build the same amount, and ONE ....
        This is an organizational issue. Although the EP "Lun" in principle exists and is run in.
        1. +13
          21 June 2022 06: 28
          40 years have passed, so consider it gone...
          1. -7
            21 June 2022 06: 45
            Quote: faiver
            40 years have passed, so consider it gone...

            I'm talking about project documentation and other things. In addition, the "Rescuer" did not seem to be cut.
            1. +8
              21 June 2022 06: 52
              it doesn’t matter, competencies are lost, who built it either in retirement or in a damp land ....
              1. -9
                21 June 2022 06: 57
                Quote: faiver
                it doesn’t matter, competencies are lost, who built it either in retirement or in a damp land ....

                What are these competencies? aluminum welding? There is almost everything ship, except for aircraft turbines. We have not forgotten how to make turbines.
                1. +12
                  21 June 2022 07: 09
                  remember the design and construction of the Il-112, what did you end up with? Excuses of the project manager - they say the specialists are young, sorry I overlooked ....
                  1. -7
                    21 June 2022 07: 14
                    Quote: faiver
                    remember the design and construction of the Il-112, what did you end up with? Excuses of the project manager - they say the specialists are young, sorry I overlooked ...

                    Is there a difference - from scratch, or according to ready-made drawings? Ship or plane?
                    1. +5
                      21 June 2022 07: 21
                      do you want to believe in all good things? it's your right bully
                      1. -6
                        21 June 2022 07: 37
                        There are no technical questions. And questions of faith are organizational questions. wink
                      2. +1
                        22 June 2022 16: 47
                        There are more than questions to the technical side of any ekranoplan ... To the unfortunate "Lun" there are much more questions, and there are simply no answers to them. In fact, you won't like them. wink
                        With all the admiration for ekranoplans from an engineering point of view, the niche of their rationality is so narrow that it cannot be seen with the naked eye.
                      3. -2
                        22 June 2022 18: 20
                        Quote: frog
                        To the unfortunate "Lun" there are much more questions, and there are simply no answers to them.

                        Ask, do not be modest - if you can formulate. But only to Luna.
                        Quote: frog
                        the niche of their rationality is so narrow that it is impossible to see with the naked eye.
                        Small anti-submarine ship, small strike ship.
      2. +1
        21 June 2022 16: 42
        Here is an excellent budget / mobilization project 23420 anti-submarine corvette -1300 tons.
        - BIUS "Sigma-E"
        - Radar detection and target designation "Pozitiv-ME1.2"
        - INS "Horizon 25"
        - 2 x products 67P "Password"
        - "Block" system
        Armament:
        - AU AK-176MA caliber 76 mm (152 shots)
        - 2 machine guns of 12,7 mm caliber (2000 rounds)
        - MPTK "Package-E / NK" (2 x 2PU, ammunition load of 8 torpedoes)
        - RPK-8E (1 x RBU-6000, 48 x anti-submarine missiles 90R and depth charges RGB-60)
        - SAM "Pantsir M"
        - unmanned aircraft complex "Horizon-AIR-S-100" (2 x UAVs)
        - GAK MGK-335EM-03
        - GAS detection PDSS "Anapa-ME" or
        - lowered GAS "Catch"
        - GAS "Vignette-EM"
        - PK-10 caliber 120 mm (2 x PU, 40 x shots)

        1. 0
          21 June 2022 16: 54
          Change the bending to the Shell and there will be nothing, but we have a problem with construction - we build doves of peace 22160 for 4 years, corvettes for 6 years, and so on. By ordering such corvettes from China, we can get two dozen ships in two, maximum three years ....
          1. +3
            22 June 2022 15: 22
            These corvettes need to be built at 5-6 factories in parallel, like Karakurt, then the pace of rearmament of the fleet will be high and the market price due to natural competition.
            In order not to get "castrated" Buyan-M at a price one and a half times higher than the more modern and combat-ready Karakurt.
            1. 0
              22 June 2022 16: 29
              These corvettes need to be built at 5-6 factories in parallel
              - so we don’t build, that’s the problem
        2. +1
          22 June 2022 01: 21
          Project 23420 does not have UKKS, which means there is no universality: no PLUR, no anti-ship missiles, no CR.

          An example of nonsense in an advertising booklet:
          MPTK "Package-E / NK" (2 x 2PU, ammunition load of 8 torpedoes)

          4 "Packet" launchers and 8 torpedoes for it ... how they want to reload them, given that the "Packet" torpedoes / anti-torpedoes come from the factory in disposable TPKs weighing several hundred kilograms.
          Etc. 23420 commented in CAST (bmpd)
          In the above image, the composition of the ship's armament is distinguished by the presence of the Broadsword anti-aircraft missile and artillery system and two twin-tube 533-mm torpedo tubes.

          In general, with the exception of the “modern” architecture, the anti-submarine capabilities of this ship seem to be little different from those of the old MPC project 1124M.
          1. 0
            22 June 2022 15: 38
            Project 23420 does not have UKKS, which means there is no universality: no PLUR, no anti-ship missiles, no CR.

            This is a budget anti-submarine corvette, why is UKKS there? This will lead to a significant increase in the cost of the corvette, the maximum that should be installed there is the 2x2 anti-ship missile X-35 "Uranus".

            4 "Packet" launchers and 8 torpedoes for it ... how they want to reload them, given that the "Packet" torpedoes / anti-torpedoes come from the factory in disposable TPKs weighing several hundred kilograms.

            I agree, this is a jamb of developers, but nothing prevents under the helicopter deck on-board, like the corvettes of pr.

            SAM - Armor M by default.
            1. +1
              22 June 2022 21: 49
              Without the Otvet PLUR, the possibilities of fighting modern submarines (especially with high-speed nuclear submarines) are practically zero, the Paket-NK will be needed to shoot back from torpedoes coming from somewhere from there ...
              There are few carriers of the KR "Caliber" in the fleet (and there are catastrophically few carriers with at least some real air defense). Refusing the opportunity to fire another 4-8 CR towards the enemy is simply criminally stupid.
              The possibility of deploying the Onyx anti-ship missiles makes it possible to keep large sea areas at gunpoint.
              So it turns out that the UKKS is a universal ship, and without the UKKS - "they are not much different from .... the old MPKs of project 1124M." This is not only my opinion, but also of CAST experts.
              PS
              and by default there is "1 turret mount 3M-47 Gibka (ammunition load of 20 missiles)"
              http://almaz-kb.ru/products/voennogo-naznacheniya/korvety-malye-raketnye-korabli-i-raketnye-katera/malyy-protivolodochnyy-korabl-proekta-23420/
              1. 0
                23 June 2022 12: 01
                by default there is "1 turret mount 3M-47" Gibka "

                Now Pantsyr M has gone into the series, so replacing it is quite realistic.
          2. -3
            22 June 2022 16: 33
            Project 23420 does not have UKKS, which means there is no versatility
            - versatility is not needed on such ships, how much can a death star be sculpted from each ship?
            1. +1
              22 June 2022 21: 56
              If there will be an economy like China's, then we will be able to afford to "sculpt"
              - separate patrol ships
              - individual RTOs
              - separate IPC
              - separate guards
              - separate gunboats
              ... yes, only in China they have already come to the conclusion that universality is necessary and useful. Therefore, they sent for storage (actually ashore) their high-speed missile boats of project 022
    2. -4
      21 June 2022 10: 35
      I will not criticize Alexander Timokhin (as I promised), Vladimir_2U is not the time to beat and cut her - it will still come in handy. hi On the whole, I agree with the approach described by the author, but Vladimir irritated with his "Caspian monster". And we're talking about serious and "increased"! It seems to me that we already have two such universal ships of the mobilization period, both in mass production: PL 636 and PL 677. They shoot with "calibers"; OVR and PLO - their direct purpose; seaworthiness / efficiency / speed / autonomy - as written; Air defense - to finance naval aviation for the supply of Su-57 or Su-35F. Here are the issues of import substitution in their production, the possible number of "tails" per year, ship power and acoustics - questions not for salary ...
      1. 0
        21 June 2022 11: 31
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        Vladimira_2U is not the time to beat and cut her - it will come in handy.

        What? For a rainy day? I'm old and wiry... laughing

        Quote: Scharnhorst
        It seems to me that we already have two such universal ships of the mobilization period, both in mass production: PL 636 and PL 677
        Two conditions of the article, draft and speed, are not met. And for me, secrecy, with their RDP, is a big question.
  8. +1
    21 June 2022 06: 05
    The number of empty buildings on the slipways will sooner or later become critically large


    Rather, there will be an exchange of fuel economy for a good ship turbine for these hulls. Modern diesel engines will only be available for ships that have not yet been built in the future. Fuel is an internal product and will always be available.
  9. +12
    21 June 2022 06: 07
    Great article. You turned out to be right in everything, much smarter and more far-sighted than those cretins who are engaged in shipbuilding in our country.
    1. -10
      21 June 2022 10: 42
      Quote: ramzay21
      You turned out to be right in everything, much smarter and more far-sighted than those cretins

      These "cretins", unlike couch experts, are engaged in business. If the author had ever visited a military factory, he would not have written such nonsense. The volume of the publication is striking, so, it was not too lazy to write to a person.
      People who are engaged in real business will immediately tell you that we cannot do without broad international cooperation. Don't expect a miracle.
      1. +2
        21 June 2022 14: 50
        Quote: ism_ek
        People who are engaged in real business will immediately tell you that we cannot do without broad international cooperation.

        Before the word "people" it was necessary to add "successful". To make it clearer what we are talking about.
      2. +4
        21 June 2022 19: 10
        These "cretins", unlike couch experts, are engaged in business.

        So it was sofa experts who built an incompetent fleet in 20 years of getting up from their knees?
        Are these couch experts building a warship, to which, in order for it to be able to at least something, it is necessary to fasten a land-based air defense system to the helipad?
        No need to sculpt deities out of cretins.
      3. 0
        26 June 2022 20: 23
        That is, give up as quickly as possible?
        1. 0
          27 June 2022 17: 45
          You see, not one of the so-called experts has ever been to a shipyard where ships are made. Otherwise, the author would not have written that we can make a lot of empty cases.
          All equipment at our shipyards is imported (and not even Chinese), and quite complex, which requires expensive consumables. Yes, we have a year ... two, but then our military production will begin to stop en masse. (((
    2. +14
      21 June 2022 11: 55
      Quote: ramzay21
      Great article. You turned out to be right in everything, much smarter and more far-sighted than those cretins who are engaged in shipbuilding in our country.

      There are no promotions here, but the naval ones must be blamed. The Navy gets what it ordered from the Proms and what it received from them.
      According to the same 22160 TTT, the Navy exhibited. And it was the fleet that occupied the bow slot under the UVP on the ordered patrolmen with cockpits and social and cultural life (on the exhibition posters and models of the future patrolman, it was empty or with "Calm"). And this is a disgrace with an army air defense system bolted to the runway with ropes

      the result of actions and inactions of the Navy.
      1. +3
        21 June 2022 23: 31
        22160 pushed the SPKB into the Navy under the sauce of "modularity".
        A good article about the intrigues of the SPKB with projects 22460 and 22160
        https://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2021-05-20/4_1141_fleet.html
        1. +4
          22 June 2022 12: 19
          Quote: Cympak
          22160 pushed the SPKB into the Navy under the sauce of "modularity".

          Very well. And where are these modules? Did the Navy order their development along with the order for a patrolman? It’s not the industry that should offer weapons to the fleet, but the Navy should issue TTT and order weapons for the ship under construction.
          And the most interesting thing is, who is to blame for the fact that pr. 22160 lost the air defense system? In 2013, the designer of pr. 22160 had a Shtilya UVP between the cannon and the superstructure:

          And in the final version of Project 22160 ordered by the Navy, it was gone.
          1. +2
            22 June 2022 21: 30
            Read the article. Initially, project 22160 was made for a competition for a border ship of the 1st rank. And the Marine Guard does not need all these air defense systems, BUGAS and anti-ship missiles. The SPKB lost this competition (apparently, the problems with the previous winner from the SPKB pr.22460 were not forgotten and not forgiven) What are the PSKB and its lobbyists doing? They urgently make a beautiful model with the "Shtil-1" air defense system (but without the "nuts" of the illumination radar), with the "Caliber" container module and with stories about multifunctionality and modularity go to the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Chirkov, who dreams of Russian analogues of modular LCS. Plus, apparently, they connected connections in DOGOZ and the specialized departments of the headquarters of the Navy. And the commander-in-chief Chirkov is completely confident that pr.22160 is a universal ship that:
            - can replace the OVR corvette
            - DMZ patrol ship
            - be a lifeguard, carry divers, look for submarines and much more can be done due to modules
            - for which there is a ready-made propulsion system and all critical technologies
            - which can be mass-produced at domestic shipyards, i.e. can be downloaded by Zelenodolsk Shipyard
            - a large series of which will now cost inexpensively, and then it will be possible to purchase the necessary modules.
            Solid benefits....
            ..... but in fact, "something went wrong" :(
            1. +1
              23 June 2022 12: 22
              Quote: Cympak
              What are the PSCB and its lobbyists doing? They urgently make a beautiful model with the "Shtil-1" air defense system (but without the "nuts" of the illumination radar), with the "Caliber" container module and with stories about multifunctionality and modularity go to the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Chirkov, who dreams of Russian analogues of modular LCS. Plus, apparently, they connected connections in DOGOZ and the specialized departments of the headquarters of the Navy. And the commander-in-chief Chirkov is completely confident that pr.22160 is a universal ship

              Excellent. Then the question is: if the PSKB presented the Navy with a model with "Calm", then why did the order of the Navy turn out to be a gym instead of "Calm"? smile
              The complete set of the ship is determined by the Customer. It was his task to achieve the installation of "Calm" in a complete set according to the principle "promised - keep". Or, follow the lead of the industry and postpone the installation of air defense systems due to the lack of a module, but at the same time leave empty nose slot under UVP "Shtilya" and obtain from the designer empty seats for "Nuts" with pre-wired cable routes. And as a result of the actions of the Navy, it turned out that there was no module, and there was no place for it either.
      2. 0
        27 June 2022 17: 48
        Calm is just rockets. For its functioning, a lot of things are needed .... Three-coordinate radar, radar - target illumination, information system. In short, you need a "Barrier", and it is more expensive than the entire series of these ships.
    3. +8
      21 June 2022 13: 23
      Quote: ramzay21
      cretins who are engaged in shipbuilding in our country.

      They are not nerds, they just have a completely different goal setting. They never set themselves such a goal as the creation of a combat-ready fleet.
  10. +4
    21 June 2022 06: 15
    I wonder: is it possible to dismantle power plants from 22160 in order to put them on unfinished buildings of other projects?
  11. -9
    21 June 2022 06: 20
    I don't want to panic ahead of time, but there is reason to believe that not all the components of the composites from which the superstructure of any of the corvettes is made are made in Russia and can now be obtained from abroad.


    well, don’t raise it to the level of hysteria, especially since the “reasons to consider” are nothing more than from the category of OBS.
  12. +3
    21 June 2022 06: 22
    Mobilization ship for the Navy under sanctions
    A non-specialist can understand all this ... you may not understand!
    Just by analogy ... like we have with paint for packaging, like there is none, and Peskov said that there are 20 factories for frame manufacturers, it’s just that packaging manufacturers have always oriented themselves towards foreign paint manufacturers, so they got the result, colorless packaging!
    And yes, remembering comrades with mustaches and pince-nez who knew how to solve problems radically and effectively ... is quite appropriate, even on time.
    Mobilization means we need responsible comrades who know how to work, solve problems, and not shrug their hands ....
    1. -2
      21 June 2022 08: 36
      There is such a book "Beria is the best manager of the twentieth century"
      1. 0
        21 June 2022 09: 08
        There are books about the fact that socialism, the USSR, the best country in the world!
        I agree with this, although there is a lot to talk about what and how it was! There are also a lot of questions and claims, but this does not negate the fact that many believe that it used to be BETTER!
  13. +14
    21 June 2022 06: 26
    The author, as always, skidded. He confuses everything - according to him, there are no turbochargers for the D49, but they are, they are produced in Penza. The Netherlands, and 33% belong to the French ALSTOM, controlled by the Americans from GE. Why be surprised at the appearance of imported GE turbochargers and diesel engines on Russian Railways locomotives. The list can go on and on - why are imported turbochargers installed on KAMAZ and GAZ engines, and not domestic JSC NPO Turbotekhnika? proteges of foreign capital are in power. Both conditional liberals and conditional patriots differ only in slogans, but not in economic policy.
    1. +4
      21 June 2022 14: 06
      He confuses everything - according to him, there are no turbochargers for the D49, but they are, they are produced in Penza.


      The author does not confuse anything, all sorts of peasants comment without reading.
      Our TCs do not provide the necessary boost pressure, its adjustment and engine power.
      With our TC and our piston 16D49, it loses a third of its power and its use on a ship loses its meaning.
      The article says this, open your eyes.
      1. +1
        21 June 2022 17: 40
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        With our TC and our piston 16D49, it loses a third of its power and its use on a ship loses its meaning.

        No need to retell MTU advertising campaigns. It loses its meaning. Tell us about the comparative tests - do you have them? - No. Then you don’t have to fantasize. By the way, Kolomeska diesel engines were delivered to Germany. With such "friends" of the fleet, it is definitely doomed.
        1. 0
          27 June 2022 13: 26
          Tell us about comparative tests - do you have them? -


          10D49 (5200 hp) and 16D49 (6000 hp) is 5D49 (4000 hp) with foreign "stuffing"

          Everything has been tested and measured for a long time.
          1. 0
            27 June 2022 15: 43
            In general, diesel engines have different designs, and this has nothing to do with the presence or absence of foreign components, it all depends on the purpose. As for the transition to imported ABB turbochargers, this company is a long-term partner of GE that controls a blocking stake in Transmashholding, through ALSTOM. everything. Russian thieves are good for nothing as soon as they destroy.
            1. +1
              27 June 2022 21: 20
              Hi,, but what for problems with understanding? DIESEL DOES NOT GO TO POWER WITH OUR KIT, 20D49 is a witness to this.
              What do you not understand here?
              1. 0
                27 June 2022 22: 43
                Once again I will ask the question - who and when conducted comparative tests - you have results - 100% no. But there is no trial. By the way, the block casting was transferred to Germany - and here is an amazing coincidence - Yakunin, the former head of Russian Railways, also lives in Germany. The question is why? looks rhetorical. Power, by the way, does not determine everything, the engine is only part of the propeller installation.
                1. +2
                  28 June 2022 13: 32
                  Once again I ask the question, who and when conducted comparative tests


                  Kolomna plant

                  100% no. And no, there is no trial


                  So the ROC on marine diesel was financed by the Moscow Region, if anything.
                  Why ask such questions?
                  On the other hand, there is a full-scale experiment - an attempt by Kolomna to produce 6000 hp. on domestic iron, it required 4 more cylinders.
                  But not everyone gets to see it.

                  Power, by the way, does not determine everything, the engine is only part of the propeller installation.


                  AND? Any complaints about RRP-12000? What's wrong there? Is the efficiency low?
                  1. 0
                    28 June 2022 14: 46
                    Ways to increase the liter capacity of internal combustion engines have long been known to everyone. You can’t think of anything new there - injection, increasing boost pressure, etc. All this has its negative sides - an increase in the heat load with all the ensuing factors.
                    What specific technical solutions from foreign suppliers make it possible to achieve 20% more power? Can you answer?
                    And the 20-cylinder engine was made as an experimental one, for locomotives back in the USSR.
                  2. 0
                    28 June 2022 14: 47
                    Ways to increase the liter capacity of internal combustion engines have long been known to everyone. You can’t think of anything new there - injection, increasing boost pressure, etc. All this has its negative sides - an increase in the heat load with all the ensuing factors.
                    What specific technical solutions from foreign suppliers make it possible to achieve 20% more power? Can you answer?
                    And the 20-cylinder engine was made as an experimental one, for locomotives back in the USSR.
    2. +6
      21 June 2022 14: 55
      Quote: Vladimir Michailovich
      - proteges of foreign capital are in power

      Well, buddy ... started for health, finished for peace laughing
      Transmashholding is a private corporation, the Kolomna Plant, which is part of this corporation, is also a private company. This holding was created by the copper magnate Makhmudov, with the money of the Cherny brothers ... wow, how it puffed from the 90s! Now for the Kolomna plant, where does the power come from if the plant is private? Moreover, this plant is the only one that agreed to a deliberately unprofitable state order for marine diesel engines. There are terms, there are conditions, there is a negotiated price, there is a desire to reduce costs, I dare say a legitimate desire, there is a desire to import substitution by at least 70 percent .... and how to bring all this into one point in a short time and at low cost? 70 percent replacement...build and upgrade your lines? This is time and extra cost for the owner! Search for subcontractors in the vastness of Russia ..... The Altai Motor Plant is working .. well, let's just say with the "Russification" of Chinese analogues of well-known engine-building companies, it could cover the missing interest, but it also needs to increase capacity ... again, time and money, and the state order does not imply the modernization of private companies. 30 percent of imports, what to do with them? Solid questions and problems that some "fighters for honesty" are happy to write off as cuts, saws and washed down.
      Quote: Vladimir Michailovich
      conditional liberals and conditional patriots differ only in slogans, but not in economic policy.

      I suspect that under the current conditions, the Kolomna Plant is waiting for bankruptcy and a transition to the public sector, just like the Admiralty Shipyards, like Zvezda at one time. The only way out now is to freeze the federal law on public procurement and launch a state support program aimed at financing work on the production of marine power units ... with strict fiscal control!
    3. +2
      21 June 2022 17: 59
      Quote: Vladimir Michailovich
      Why are there Ukrainian GTUs and German MTU diesel engines on ships, and steam power units of the same ALSTOM at nuclear power plants of the Russian Federation.


      On the contrary, it is better to put a lot of export components on export equipment - this makes it easier to enter foreign markets and service in remote regions of the planet. But this must be regulated by duties and taxes inside - import duties in metal and tax the use of other people's patents and intellectual property.
  14. -16
    21 June 2022 06: 27
    - in Russia, there is simply no technical possibility to provide the required level of machining of products, there are no necessary alloys, automation and precision mechanics.

    Yeah, and all our high-tech projects in the defense industry, space, medicine, astronomy, as usual, we did with the help of a crowbar, a sledgehammer and some kind of mother.
    How much longer are you going to whine, all-weavers?
    1. +10
      21 June 2022 14: 07
      A pink pony is whining here in the comments, having no idea of ​​​​reality.
      Do you think that in the Russian Federation there is a plant capable of overpowering a turbocharger at the ABB level?
      Write where he is, that's all.
      Answer for the words so to speak.

      And then all the masters of the Germans turn around, and the country only intervenes under your approval.
      1. 0
        21 June 2022 16: 11
        Could you clarify what characteristics of the turbocharger are needed?
      2. -8
        21 June 2022 17: 50
        Judging by your primitive whining tryndets Russia came. As it is in the film - the client leaves, the plaster is removed and ...... further, as far as fantasy.
        And in fact, we wet the Ukronatsiks in the tail and mane, despite their numerical advantage and despite the supply of various iron from behind the hillock. Yes, and all these foreign "partners" are only barking from behind the fence, but they can't do anything. If they could, they would have rolled us out like Yugoslavia a long time ago. And this is despite all our shortcomings, which you talk about with such Bolshevik enthusiasm.
        Nothing, we will break through, the main thing is enough food and a powerful army is available, and this is the most basic thing for survival. We'll fix everything else. There is no need to whine not childishly, our country in the Second World War did not experience such a thing.
        1. +3
          27 June 2022 13: 24
          And in fact we wet the Ukronatsiks in the tail and mane


          In fact, they put a four-digit number of people and for the fifth month we have been fighting with the enemy, whom the Americans would have rolled into the ground in two months completely, with the loss of sovereignty.
          1. 0
            27 June 2022 16: 49
            Why pretend to be a fool, or you have no idea how many peaceful people they would roll into ruins. fool
            1. +1
              27 June 2022 21: 22
              There are fewer of us, if only because where we work on areas with artillery, they work on targets controlled by weapons or direct fire.
              1. +1
                27 June 2022 22: 47
                tell this to several Iraqi cities that they leveled to zero trying to "work on targets with guided weapons", and as a result stupidly switched to bombs
                1. +2
                  28 June 2022 13: 34
                  Well, let's compare the destruction in Volnovah and Fallujah. Do you think the comparison will be in favor of Volnovakha? And this is still taking into account the fact that the destruction in Iraq was already later when the rebels tried to drive the Americans out of the cities they occupied.
                  And in the first 25 days, during which they settled with the Iraqi army, they were at a minimum.
                  1. +1
                    28 June 2022 14: 03
                    compare a village of 20 thousand and a large city of 350 thousand? oh yes .. and yes .. Al-Fallujah is exactly the opposite when the Americans tried to knock out the rebels.
              2. -1
                28 June 2022 07: 00
                Are you talking about Mosul, Raqqa, Belgrade and others? fool Fuck something why flog.
                1. +1
                  28 June 2022 13: 35
                  Well, here is Mosul, Raqqa and that's it.
                  And we level every village with the ground. Can't see the difference?
                  1. 0
                    28 June 2022 14: 08
                    how many militants were in Raqqa? if you collect all the cases, it will come out from the strength of 100 militants with light weapons, and we have a war with a full-fledged army of 000 bayonets with heavy artillery and armored vehicles
                    1. 0
                      5 July 2022 14: 35
                      In Mariupol, there were 8-10 thousand Ukrainians inside the encirclement.
                      1. 0
                        5 July 2022 15: 52
                        and In Mosul, up to 15 K militants, and in terms of time it was stormed three times longer, and having superiority in forces almost the classic 3 to 1, and still the city was razed to the ground. Any NP that stays in the war zone for a long time turns into ruins. And yes, if the Americans are so cool that they "would have defeated everyone in a month", then with whom did they fight in the same Iraq for 7 years?
                  2. 0
                    29 June 2022 15: 11
                    And who said that we are equalizing, while I see that the Nazis are hammering on everything that moves. Oh, you, Timokha.
                    1. +2
                      5 July 2022 14: 34
                      The eyes send information to the brain, and the brain should be.
                      You don't have it.
                      Even if you upload a video, you will deny reality.
                      1. -2
                        5 July 2022 18: 40
                        And about reality, ask the fleeing Ukronazis and their mercenary friends. Somehow a homegrown amateur demagogue. Although what am I talking about, Timokha, he is Timokha in Africa.
          2. 0
            28 June 2022 12: 27
            an adversary whom the Americans would have rolled into the ground in two months completely, with the loss of sovereignty.

            On TV, they are trying to explain these “successes” by the fact that “we are destroying cities to zero, like the United States” request
            (Mariupol, formerly Grozny does not count)
        2. 0
          28 June 2022 12: 22
          The fact of the presence of nuclear weapons. No one claimed our territory. This is our leadership wants to return the previously owned lands that have come out of subordination. As I recently heard, "the empire must expand."
          How we have been fighting for the last 4 months (“Kyiv will be taken in 2 days”, we will throw hats), with the real participation of the US Army in the defense of Ukraine, everything would have ended quickly there, say, in a month.
          It's good that they don't need it.
          But it would be interesting to chat with the amers, for example, for Lithuania
      3. 0
        22 June 2022 13: 57
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Write where he is, that's all.

        Moscow region Protvino. Zavodskoy pr. 4.
        Please! And no thanks!
        1. +1
          27 June 2022 13: 23
          Well, how would such statements need to be proven. What did turbotechnics do comparable there?
    2. +1
      23 June 2022 18: 37
      Mmmm... are those high-tech projects in space that crash shortly after being put into orbit?
  15. +3
    21 June 2022 06: 30
    Beria Lavrenty Pavlovich, who was criminally murdered and shamelessly slandered by Khrushch and Zhukov, would be an ideal curator for such a shipbuilding program. Stalin had a wide choice of leaders, and yet it was Beria who put him on the nuclear missile program, and not anyone else. The combination of outstanding organizational skills and the ability to deal, albeit at a managerial level, with technical issues in one package with the ability to involve foreign intelligence and domestic law enforcement agencies. It was thanks to him that the USSR received a nuclear missile shield. But in modern Russia there is no such thing, and it is not clear from what "effective manager" such a one can grow.
    1. +2
      21 June 2022 07: 33
      Here it is enough to look at the management of large enterprises. Under Stalin, Tupolev, Likhachev, Korolev, Ilyushin, Sukhoi, Lavochkin managed the enterprises.
      And under Putin, Miller, Rogozin, Usmanov, Potanin, Alekperov, Timchenko.
  16. -5
    21 June 2022 07: 08
    The author has complicated everything and everything. why come up with some kind of mobilization when there is already a ready-made Karakurt ... just add PLO / VET to it and that's it. You can lengthen it a little and instead of 8 UVP stick 16 UVP. Instead of one ZRAK Shell-m, you can stick 16 cells of the VPU SAM Redoubt (4 missiles for each cell in total will be 64 missiles 9M100). + 2 ZAK AK-630M on the sides.
    1. +6
      21 June 2022 07: 26
      too small for your supplements and replacements...
      our long-suffering "doves of peace" 22160 with their 1500 tons of displacement are more suitable for this whole thing ....
      1. +1
        21 June 2022 07: 36
        There is a project of Super Karakurt extended with 16 UVP. So if you compare the costs for reworking 22160 and superkakrakurt, then I think the latter will be more suitable.
        1. 0
          21 June 2022 07: 53
          maybe, but it's all speculation
        2. +1
          21 June 2022 23: 34
          Why 16 UKKS on a small ship? The reality of the use in the SVO shows that they usually fire 2 missiles.
      2. +1
        22 June 2022 22: 23
        A corvette of 1500+ tons of displacement is, of course, better for seaworthiness and habitability than 800+ tons, but it still rests on the engines.
        And 22160 has too much to change:
        - hull contours (turned out to be unsuccessful: low speed, strong blows with a redan during waves)
        - UKKS (height 9,58 m) just won’t take the place of the Shtil air launcher (height 7,15 m), finding a place for UKKS on a small ship is not an easy task
        - it is necessary to change the propulsion system with an increase in power (22 knots of full speed is clearly not enough) and spacing into separate compartments to increase survivability), which will require a reconfiguration of many internal compartments.
        - for PLO it is desirable that the engine exhaust goes into the pipe
        - for air defense systems, antenna posts and a new mast are needed
        And much more
        ... as a result, nothing will remain from project 22160, it will be a completely different ship
    2. +2
      22 June 2022 15: 51
      Skipper, how will he fight the submarines?
  17. -5
    21 June 2022 07: 49
    If you manage to take Nikolaev, then there will be gas turbine engines from Zorya Mashproekt.
    1. +8
      21 June 2022 09: 35
      If you manage to take Nikolaev, then there will be gas turbine engines from Zorya Mashproekt.

      And where are the guarantees that everything will not go according to Azovostal's scenario? How much will we get then? In addition, the issue is not only in the equipment, but in the people who work on this equipment.
    2. -1
      21 June 2022 18: 00
      And someone doubts this, no, here the game is serious. And words are just words, the main thing is deeds. Do you think guys are putting their lives in vain?
      1. -1
        22 June 2022 06: 41
        Do you think guys are putting their lives in vain

        Why for nothing? For money. Only not for their own, but for the money of big fat cats. There is no other rational explanation for what is happening.
        1. -3
          22 June 2022 10: 43
          It is clear that you have strained your brains. Alas, the mind, it is either there or its complete absence. I can't help. It's not curable.
    3. 0
      5 August 2022 10: 46
      it doesn't seem to matter - it's too late
      and even our gas turbine engines from Saturn got stuck 4 frigates 22350 without turbines stand at the Northern Shipyard occupy in the boathouse
  18. +5
    21 June 2022 08: 19
    In principle, the article is good, there is only one BUT jet propulsion is very noisy and, in principle, not suitable for a PLO ship. Our industry has good traditions in the construction of electric motors, there are competencies, there are factories. It is possible to combine diesel generators in a cascade type, this is very well mastered by the industry, and turbines can be plugged in and built corvettes of the modified project 22385 or the same karakurts. what is dangerous now is throwing in search of the perfect ship.
    1. +1
      21 June 2022 13: 20
      Quote: insafufa
      The article, in principle, is good, there is only one BUT jet propulsion is very noisy

      Water jets are now installed on submarines. Noise is a function of speed. No one forces you to drive 30-40 knots during the search.
      1. +1
        22 June 2022 07: 44
        It so happened that 10 years ago, together with the Gorky plant, we mastered the production of water jets, we had a contract with them, they developed a control system, all this was developed for high-speed river vessels. they wanted to stick it all into warships after testing the constructor they said that they are only suitable for high-speed boats for the PLO ship, adjustable pitch propellers are best suited. In principle, the problem here is that there are zones of compaction and expansion of water jets where the cavitation effect is formed, which is the main source of noise. on submarines they are used as auxiliary power units in case of an accident. And the screws limited by the annular nozzle are not jet propulsion.
        In cases where the diameter of the screw is limited, it is possible to increase the efficiency and stop by using an annular profiled nozzle. Due to the narrowing in the nozzle of the flow of water flowing onto the blades, its speed increases, which is tantamount to a transition to high speeds, at which the propeller works more efficiently. Due to the small gap between the surface of the nozzle and the ends of the blades, the flow of liquid over the edge of the blade decreases, which also slightly increases the efficiency of the propeller.

        Obviously, the use of the propeller-nozzle complex is accompanied by an increase in the propulsive qualities of the vessel until the power loss to overcome the nozzle resistance exceeds the increase in propeller efficiency achieved with its help.
        so in submarines all this is done to increase the efficiency of the propeller and increase speed at the same propeller speed.
    2. +3
      21 June 2022 14: 09
      BUT water jets are very noisy and, in principle, not suitable for a PLO ship.


      At some speeds, they are quieter than propellers, in addition, the GAK equipment can simply cut off this interference.
  19. +2
    21 June 2022 08: 55
    At the beginning of the XNUMXs, the Military Parade magazine presented design images of export corvettes, carriers of the CLUB-N complex, differing in displacement and air defense composition.
    1800 tons, SAM "Shtil"

    1350 tons, ZRPK "Kortik"

    The second option for mobilization is quite suitable, especially since there is now a "weakened" ZRPK "Pantsir".
    1. 0
      21 June 2022 10: 53
      "export corvettes" by any means mean at least 50% of imported components at the request of the customer. From the Russian Federation, only a screwdriver assembly of these ships would be required - just making money in the pre-sanction period. The topic is currently irrelevant.
      1. 0
        21 June 2022 11: 03
        I'm dragging something about the composition of weapons and equipment. And what displacement it is squeezed into.
        1. +4
          21 June 2022 12: 24
          Quote: doktorkurgan
          I'm dragging something about the composition of weapons and equipment. And what displacement it is squeezed into.

          So the problem is that the MGH of imported equipment and domestic equipment do not match. The export corvettes had 100% MTU diesels - as on the fully diesel Gepards offered by Zelenodolsk. How can we replace them, taking into account the described problems in Kolomna?
          And so, Zelenodolsk has a PLO corvette project. 2000 tons of displacement, TA, helicopter, and without a scarce gas turbine.
          1. 0
            21 June 2022 14: 09
            There was a project near Kolomna.
    2. +3
      21 June 2022 23: 37
      Experiments with the buildings of the design team (SPKB), which are involved in the creation of non-core projects for the bureau, do not lead to good. This happened with the PKR project 22160, the PSKR project 22460, and even earlier with the PS-500 small missile corvette with a displacement of 520 tons, designed specifically for the Vietnamese Navy. An unprecedented scandal happened to him.

      Launched in 1999 at a shipyard in Ho Chi Minh City, the corvette simply could not go to sea. He did not obey the helm and threatened to dive under the water. For many years, the ship stood against the wall, while the SPKB thought about how to eliminate the shortcomings. The solution seems to have been found. And now the PS-500 is leaving the base, but not far from it. Yes, just in case.

      (Источник: https://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2021-05-20/4_1141_fleet.html
  20. 0
    21 June 2022 09: 21
    Air defense is a little weak there. Now you need to have a means on the ship against medium-altitude reconnaissance and strike UAVs (bayraktar, MQ-50) hovering at 100-1 km, which can induce a bunch of shit. Therefore, you still need to equip air defense kamikaze drones with a radius of up to 150 km (as far as the radar sees) and a telescopic sight - like a zala cube but a little larger and 3-4 times faster with outboard batteries that can be dropped.
    1. -1
      21 June 2022 14: 10
      No, it's easier with "nails" and knocking down the TSA
      1. +3
        21 June 2022 15: 22
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        No, it's easier with "nails" and knocking down the TSA

        "Shooting down the ASP" is a dead end. Precision-guided munitions are getting cheaper constantly and steadily. Soon they will be allowed in/thrown out dozens of times. "Shoot and forget." Knock them down after that with "nails". It's not even that the nails are a pity or not enough. An elementary theorver says that it is extremely difficult to bring down everything - at least one, let him pass.
        1. +2
          21 June 2022 16: 21
          Well, they will shoot down with nails, for example, 3 ships in the detachment, 16 nails each without reloading + 76 - mm + 30 mm, this is relatively speaking 30-40 targets.
          And this is without taking into account interference, dispersal, camouflage - it’s banal that such a cloud of foil is fired from cannons, which is defined on the radar as a steel plate the size of an air base and then hangs in the air for two hours.
          There are options.
          And most importantly - either so, or not at all.
          1. +2
            21 June 2022 17: 10
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Well, they will shoot down with nails, for example, 3 ships in the detachment, 16 nails each without reloading + 76 - mm + 30 mm, this is relatively speaking 30-40 targets.

            What if there are more targets? Imagine that the target is a planning bomb weighing about 50-100 kilograms with a "fire and forget" type thermal imaging seeker, dragged onto the ship's appearance. The price of such a bomb at the present time can be on the order of several thousand dollars. Some of the bombs in the outfit may have a simple anti-radar seeker - in case the smoke screen is too dense for the IR.

            How many of these bombs can a conditional F-16 take? Twenty? Thirty? Fourty? And if a couple or four F-16s arrive? And they will drop all this stuff in a volley of kilometers from twenty distances and ten kilometers in height, and even from different directions.

            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And most importantly - either so, or not at all.

            This "no way" needs to be addressed somehow. Or at least medium-range air defense, or fighter cover, or something else, but without solving this problem (defeating the carrier), it will soon be pointless to play a naval war. Who owns the air - owns the sea.

            And air defense of the near zone should remain a means of "last chance". When everything else is already broken.
            1. +5
              22 June 2022 13: 47
              How many of these bombs can a conditional F-16 take? Twenty? Thirty? Fourty? And if a couple or four F-16s arrive?


              Well, what F-16 is at the throat of the White Sea? This is for an example. In addition, this is not forever - we have nothing to ensure the exit of submarines today, we need to close this hole, this does not mean that we do not need to restore competence in building normal ships
              1. +1
                22 June 2022 14: 46
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Well, what F-16 is at the throat of the White Sea?

                I wrote - conditional. Little whether that can fly. It is necessary to prepare for future wars, as you yourself recently wrote. By the way, the United States has a program to convert worn-out F-16s into unmanned QF-16s. Why not send it one way even to Arkhangelsk. A passage at an ultra-low altitude, a slide near the target and the release of dozens of homing bombs. Can't be?

                Quote: timokhin-aa
                In addition, this is not forever - we have nothing to ensure the exit of submarines today

                You understood me wrong. I am not against the construction of mobilization corvettes. I already suggested an option below - one of the three (approximately) corvettes has Calm instead of Shell and UKKS. Performs the functions of medium-range air defense of a detachment of corvettes. Or any other "mosquito" detachment.
      2. 0
        22 June 2022 10: 06
        It is possible so, but I wrote about the possibility of shooting down large reconnaissance and strike UAVs of the enemy, in fact, at detection distances, which will not work even if Calm is on board, and it is not always possible to call air support and it is much more expensive.
      3. 0
        5 August 2022 10: 51
        "nails"

        you propose to install small-sized missiles on the Shell air defense missile system to increase the BC, but with a shorter range, but a large number of targets to be destroyed before reloading
  21. 0
    21 June 2022 09: 42
    What are the problems with turbocharging? Fart gas turbine - how many diesels have exhaust? 500-700 degrees? But how then do the turbines of aircraft engines work, there the temperature in front of the turbine is approaching 2000K!
    The compressor is also much simpler than an aircraft compressor, in any case, the velocity field at the inlet is much more uniform than on an aeroplane. And the operation of the turbine is not directly related to the performance of the compressor, and surge, if any, will not burn out the turbine. I won’t be surprised if there are centrifugal compressors, but they don’t care at all. In terms of weight and size, the requirements are also not aviation.
    1. +3
      21 June 2022 14: 11
      What are the problems with turbocharging?


      So there are no special ones, we just can’t make the compressor at the right level, otherwise everything is fine
      1. +1
        23 June 2022 17: 13
        And copy the enemy, repeat the Chinese experience? Once upon a time we copied planes.
        1. +1
          27 June 2022 13: 22
          Need machines and alloys
  22. ban
    +3
    21 June 2022 10: 02
    The article is definitely a big +.

    But our state machine cannot get rid of incompetent personnel even in war conditions.


    Here's the main one.
    And as long as these parasites are in place, the output will be nothing but parades and eyewash.
  23. +5
    21 June 2022 10: 37
    Karakurts will not be saved even in BMZ. I really want to see how the GAS will work with 300+ working cylinders. Even UAVs will not be able to take on board.
    But at 22160 places and displacement for the eyes. You can put two M70s instead of diesels. And there will be real 25-27 knots plus a place for armament, plus a platform and a hangar for a helicopter and UAVs. And BUGAS can be delivered, if desired, something like a shelon can be reproduced at a new level.

    Multi-row stars must be abandoned. This is a cruel perversion.
    1. 0
      21 June 2022 14: 11
      You also propose to make an aircraft carrier out of 22160
    2. +3
      21 June 2022 14: 57
      22160, unfortunately, is also a fierce perversion.
      There is an excellent 22800, there is 22350, there is 20380 which seems to have been brought to mind (not counting the barrier).
      And there are, of course, gas turbine engines and electric motors.
  24. 0
    21 June 2022 10: 43
    I wonder what Mr. Chemezov will say when Kolomna has problems with imports?

    It will say something like this:
    “Yes, at the moment we have lost access to certain goods, technologies, components. But this is not a signal for total import substitution. In partnership with leading foreign companies, we have created modern cars, Superjet and MS-21 liners, Ansat and Ka-62 helicopters and other modern products,” Sergey Chemezov, head of the Rostec state corporation, said at the St. Petersburg Economic Forum.
    1. +3
      21 June 2022 14: 11
      By the way, yes, exactly.
  25. -1
    21 June 2022 10: 48
    In order for these problems to be solved, a separate state program is needed, in which there will be no place for all sorts of traditional Russian saws, kickbacks

    And what facts of cuts-kickbacks did the Author encounter when implementing, for example, the state program for the development of the electronic and radio-electronic industry?
    1. +2
      21 June 2022 14: 55
      And you do not know about the "Barrier"? Read, the author had articles on the topic.
      And I’ll tell you even cooler, to Moscow research institutes, for example, radio engineers, they bring shitty boards from China, where spilled solder is washed off them, bugs are removed, and then they are delivered to the Moscow Region and state institutions with the words "and this is ours, they did it themselves"
      1. -1
        21 June 2022 14: 59
        And you do not know about the "Barrier"? Read, the author had articles on the topic.

        And where did the Author find out about the "Barrier"?
        And I’ll tell you even cooler, to Moscow research institutes, for example, radio engineers, they bring shitty boards from China, where spilled solder is washed off them, bugs are removed, and then they are delivered to the Moscow Region and state institutions with the words "and this is ours, they did it themselves"

        And what about the FCP?
      2. +1
        21 June 2022 16: 39
        Quote: Devil13
        And I’ll tell you even cooler, to Moscow research institutes, for example, radio engineers, they bring shitty boards from China, where spilled solder is washed off them, bugs are removed, and then they are delivered to the Moscow Region and state institutions with the words "and this is ours, they did it themselves"

        Why only in MO? Almost all "import-substituted" Russian electronics is done this way.
  26. +3
    21 June 2022 11: 07
    Are there any examples of tough personnel decisions and serious responsibility of high-ranking leaders in our recent history?
    If no one risks anything in case of failure, no changes can be expected.
    1. +8
      21 June 2022 12: 27
      Quote: kakvastam
      Are there any examples of tough personnel decisions and serious responsibility of high-ranking leaders in our recent history?

      Departure of Chubais abroad. laughing
      1. +2
        21 June 2022 14: 33
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Departure of Chubais abroad.

        He'll be back, don't worry. He will buy and sell us all.
  27. -1
    21 June 2022 11: 26
    what darkness! why build all these corvettes at all if they don’t have normal air defense, and this is in the age of the rapid development of UAVs ????!!!! tori on the deck of ships that do not help
  28. +2
    21 June 2022 11: 48
    And why do such ships need a cannon at all? Isn't it more logical to put a second shell in its place? Air defense capabilities will greatly increase. And you can work with Shell missiles and surface targets if something happens.
    1. 0
      21 June 2022 16: 40
      Quote: Rutrick
      And why do such ships need a cannon at all?

      A gun is also air defense.
      1. 0
        21 June 2022 20: 52
        Well, yes, but incomparably less powerful than the same shell with missiles.
        1. -1
          21 June 2022 22: 00
          Quote: Rutrick
          Well, yes, but incomparably less powerful than the same shell with missiles.

          It's downright incomparable.

          The rate of fire of the AK-176 is 2 rounds per second. Projectile weight 5,9 kg. Total almost 12 kilograms per second. Maximum burst 70 shots. In 35 seconds, 413 kilograms of metal and explosives will go to the targets. The 57E6E missile has a warhead mass of 20 kilograms. That is, the burst of the cannon in terms of firepower is equivalent to 20 Pantsir missiles.

          You see, everything can be compared.
          1. +1
            22 June 2022 12: 33
            Well, I mean efficiency) The new shells have a range of up to 40 km and are likely to hit a target with one missile (plus it also has its own radar), and the range of air operation and the probability of hitting an artillery system with a caliber of 76 mm?
        2. 0
          26 June 2022 20: 47
          In the United States, one of the methods of combating UAVs is gun and shrapnel.
  29. +4
    21 June 2022 12: 04
    Mr. Admiral Osipov, who fell in love with Moscow with raptors and chamois, is in office and continues to steer the Black Sea Fleet. We have total impunity, as the author says, nothing will happen. You can burn a corvette for billions, lose a satellite, ruin a plane. Yes, do whatever. Thousands of bots in the service will shout approval.
    1. +1
      21 June 2022 16: 41
      Quote: tone
      Mr. Admiral Osipov

      Not an admiral, but an admiral. winked
  30. +1
    21 June 2022 12: 43
    wassat our mobilization steamship-frigates and sail-propeller schooners will still show themselves in action! But! At the same time, it is desirable to have one coastal defense battleship with a ram in the nose in each fleet. - This is the best ship for escorting foreign military and civilian ships out of Russian territorial waters! Many times more efficient than RTOs, etc. OVR ships!
    1. +3
      21 June 2022 14: 40
      Quote: nespich
      But! At the same time, it is desirable to have one coastal defense battleship with a ram in the nose in each fleet.

      No no no. If you rely on mobilization steamboat-frigates and sail-propeller schooners, then only popovki, only hardcore, should be used as battleships! smile

      And to expel the adversary from the terrorist water in the Black Sea Fleet, a couple of proven means - 1135 "clean" and 1135M are still used.
  31. +3
    21 June 2022 12: 56
    The author made a good analysis, most of the data, apparently, correspond to reality. However, the way he proposes to design weapons and military equipment is a dead end. Any "piece of iron" (ship, plane, self-propelled guns, tank, etc.) is just an obvious target in the face of NATO information systems (which we are currently observing), if there are no alternative systems of their own. Even a corvette, even an aircraft carrier near Zmeinoye are doomed if data from them is transmitted through Sevastopol to Moscow, and from there through the headquarters of the Aerospace Forces to the nearby Crimean airfield. They will receive support too late.
    It is necessary to start with information systems (intelligence, target designation, communications and control) in the interests of the RF Armed Forces as a whole. All "pieces of iron" - carriers of weapons are just subscribers of such systems. For such a task, ordering departments, research institutes of the Ministry of Defense, etc. should be built.
    Alas, there is no data on the use of ESU TK in the NWO. This is a test for the direction of development.
  32. +1
    21 June 2022 13: 17
    Air defense from "Pantsir-M" with the solved problems of firing radar and 76-mm gun is more than worthy for a small ship

    Here, of course, there is no certainty. We are again preparing for the already ongoing war.

    In the next war, the enemy may have something like the MQ-9 Reaper, which has a ceiling of 15 kilometers. And from this height, he can with impunity shoot with hellfires and payways our corvettes armed with Pantsirs and Tors, which have a height reach of a maximum of 10-12 km.

    A solution to the problem is to build one corvette of the same design, but with more serious air defense - the Shtilya-Buk class, for every two or three corvettes with Pantsirs or Tors. Most likely, this corvette will have to part with strike weapons - a launcher for "calibers". In return, he will perform the tasks of the "Air Defense Connection" - a detachment of corvettes.
    1. 0
      21 June 2022 14: 53
      Calm-beech is no better in terms of reach and range.
      Redoubt.
      And you can put a redoubt on what? That's right, something from 4500 tons.
      And do not suffer from crap with barriers, but put a normal "Polyment".
      And even better 22350M. But throwing him a shell for "finishing"
      1. +1
        21 June 2022 15: 06
        Quote: Devil13
        And you can put a redoubt on what? That's right, something from 4500 tons.

        And in the article we are talking about mobilization corvettes based on RTOs.
        1. -3
          21 June 2022 16: 23
          We need mobilization frigates and destroyers (8000+ thousand tons).
          Concentrate all efforts on this, reduce a number of budget items. To start a campaign in the media, explaining to people that it is impossible without it, they will understand.
          1. 0
            21 June 2022 16: 43
            Quote: 3danimal
            Concentrate all efforts on this, reduce a number of budget items.

            Why is this? It is necessary not to reduce expenditure items, but to increase revenue.
            1. -2
              21 June 2022 17: 02
              Suggest. To rely on a small domestic market with a predominantly poor population, in the face of previously unthinkable external restrictions?
              But with these ships it will be possible to try to sell fear. Such people will pass near one of the coastal American cities - you see, the rhetoric will change and the sanctions will be removed retroactively. request
              1. 0
                21 June 2022 17: 15
                Quote: 3danimal
                Suggest.

                Oh, there are a lot of options. For example, a tax on withdrawing money abroad. For this year alone, it is planned to withdraw 150 billion dollars from Russia. We make a tax of a modest 30 percent - here's 50 billion as a bush.
                1. +1
                  21 June 2022 18: 17
                  Primitive. Take away and share. And when will almost nothing be output?
                  1. +1
                    21 June 2022 18: 25
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Primitive. Take away and share.

                    On the contrary, it is an element of a competent tax system. Instead of the nightmare that we have had for thirty years, and which is purposefully built to milk and bleed the economy.

                    Quote: 3danimal
                    And when will almost nothing be output?

                    Even better. This money will remain in the country and serve as a powerful investment resource. An economic boom will begin. We will receive the same money a little later from internal taxes. More precisely, not the same, but much larger. Multiplier effect.
                    1. -1
                      21 June 2022 18: 37
                      Hm. Reminds me of the opuses of alternative economists, but oh well.
                      Ships are still better to build big ones. Here under them it is possible and to raise taxes.
                      1. +1
                        21 June 2022 19: 58
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Reminds me of the opuses of alternative economists

                        No, well, if you prefer the opuses of mainstream economists, you can look around.
                      2. -2
                        21 June 2022 20: 04
                        One of the alternatives, Khazin, predicted the collapse of the US economy for the last 15-20 years.
                        Since then, the US GDP has grown significantly, a number of Hi-Tech companies with huge capitalization have appeared. The total US fund also rose markedly.
                        So where is the crash?
                        (All this is reminiscent of predictions of the end of the world: when the forecast did not come true, the author simply said that everything would be exactly next year. Then he repeated. Some of the adherents left, but some simply liked to hang out together and they stayed.
                      3. +1
                        21 June 2022 20: 14
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        One of the alternatives, Khazin, predicted the collapse of the US economy for the last 15-20 years.

                        AND? Do you conclude from this that any proposal to correct something in our economic conservatory cannot but be the same nonsense as Khazin's wang?

                        Quote: 3danimal
                        So where is the crash?

                        I don't know, comrade. When Khazin comes here, you can ask him.
                      4. 0
                        21 June 2022 20: 27
                        I believe that a country that relies on a small domestic market and is in a certain isolation will be much inferior economically to the same country, but tightly included in international cooperation.
                        When a large group of countries have all the necessary high-level technologies (each has something of its own and is good at it).
                        One, and even a small (we are talking about the population) player will always lag behind. We are not even close to China and I believe we will never catch up with it.
                        Therefore, for the current state of Lada Granta - that's it. Conventional commercially available 4000 hp diesels. (Not 6000).
                        Yes, instead of 4 diesels we will put 6. The processors will be 90nm for now (in 2002 it was a cool technology). Enough for the office, military equipment.
                        Etc.
                      5. 0
                        21 June 2022 20: 41
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        I believe that a country that relies on a small domestic market and is in a certain isolation will be much inferior economically to the same country, but tightly included in international cooperation.

                        This is a statement from the category "it is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick." What does it have to do with the proposal to fill the budget with money stolen from our economy?
                      6. -2
                        21 June 2022 21: 11
                        There are much better solutions.
                        Ideally - to return to the system of cooperation and restore the norms of international relations. (But this will apparently be done by the government in years / decades to come).
                        From what is left: to exempt medium and small businesses from taxes for several years. Exempt from taxes people with an income of less than 20000 rubles.
                        Such measures should bring about a qualitative improvement in the domestic financial climate.
                        Well, the income tax is smoothly raised to 16-20 percent. VAT up to 25.
                        Stop "cutting" the regions, at least half of the money should remain in them. Which again will ensure growth.
                        There are many things to name.
                      7. -2
                        21 June 2022 21: 36
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        There are many things to name.

                        You can think of dirty tricks to further strangle your own economy. The only question is why.
                      8. +2
                        21 June 2022 22: 03
                        Quote: DenVB
                        You can generally come up with dirty tricks to further strangle your own economy

                        More details from now? About "dirty things invented for their own economy"?

                        I look forward to laughing
                      9. -2
                        21 June 2022 22: 11
                        Quote: Repellent
                        I look forward to

                        Wait.
                      10. 0
                        27 June 2022 13: 29
                        Yes, instead of 4 diesels we will put 6.


                        And another gearbox for 40 tons, right? Total +100 tons for the power plant, about 200 more because of the third wall line, and minus the internal volume of the hull for one more engine room to get a ship with the same parameters.

                        Can you guess the speed?
                      11. 0
                        27 June 2022 18: 45
                        And what remains?
                        Reduce the speed requirements, as you sounded in the article.
                        25 knots instead of 30. Reducing the maximum speed by 16,6% will reduce the required power by 36%, which is very solid.
                        A ship for .. a party limited in technology and production capabilities. Tit in hands request
                        Make habitability worse.
                        If you need, first of all, PLO, abandon UKKS (make them the lot of frigates and higher), put "Uranus" (on a corvette), as in 20380. For defense against air attacks, only the naval "Tor" (modernized "Dagger") and MANPADS , as an option - "Bending".
                      12. +2
                        27 June 2022 21: 25
                        25 knots instead of 30.


                        21 instead of honest 27

                        Reducing the maximum speed by 16,6% will reduce the required power by 36%, which is very solid.


                        Not so - due to an increase in the number of diesel engines and an increase in displacement, the draft will increase, the resistance will also increase, the speed will drop, and all with the same total power on the shafts.
                      13. 0
                        27 June 2022 23: 54
                        21 instead of honest 27

                        Are you sure? Where did you do the calculations?
                        Not so - due to an increase in the number of diesel engines and an increase in displacement, the draft will increase, the resistance will also increase, the speed will drop, and all with the same total power on the shafts.

                        There are examples of WW2 ships, which sometimes had a significantly higher power of KTU, which worked on oil and fuel oil. I will assume that these units did not have much superiority in specific power per kilogram compared to modern ones. request
                        And yes, a lot of shafts were made there, a large (sometimes huge) engine room.
                        IMHO, by increasing the number of diesels, it is still possible to achieve the required real speed of 25, let's say 24 knots.
                        The building itself should be redesigned for new conditions.
                        As an option, install 8 diesel engines (32000 hp, 4 gearboxes operating through some adders on 2 shafts (since the shaft line “eats” so much displacement reserve, it weighs like 2 sets of 2 diesel engines + gearbox). I will assume that the adder by weight will not differ from the gearbox by more than 2 times.
                        By the way, I learned that there is an inclined deck installation 3S-14PE (for 2 missiles, installed on the deck).
                        Its presence should simplify the design of ships, because you can place weapons on the deck (a'la cruiser 1164), and not try to cram a 9+ m high UVP into a small hull.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                2. -1
                  21 June 2022 20: 56
                  Quote: DenVB
                  Oh, there are a lot of options. For example, a tax on withdrawing money abroad

                  Young man, wake up... you are enchanted.

                  Withdraw now at least some significant amount of "abroad".

                  Swallow dust get tired on the way Yes
                  1. +1
                    21 June 2022 21: 47
                    Quote: Repellent
                    Young man, wake up... you are enchanted.

                    Withdraw now at least some significant amount of "abroad".

                    Grandpa, have you tried reading newspapers?
                    The Central Bank of the Russian Federation (CBR) worsened its expectations for the outflow of private capital from Russia.
                    As follows from the new medium-term forecast, which the regulator published on Friday, April 29, following the meeting of the board of directors on the key rate, according to the results of 2022, the net outflow of capital by the private sector will amount to $151 billion (in the previous version of the forecast it was $75 billion).


                    Quote: Repellent
                    Swallow dust get tired on the way

                    Where did you pick up such expressions? Have you heard enough of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief? While he is bragging in front of you, curious things happen in life:

                    From June 8, the Bank of Russia will increase the limits for transfers abroad for Russian resident individuals, the regulator's press service reported. Now they have the right to transfer to their account abroad or to another person no more than $150 or an equivalent amount in another currency.

                    Non-resident individuals from friendly countries will also be able to transfer a similar amount to foreign accounts. The Central Bank clarified that earlier the limit was $50.
                    1. +1
                      21 June 2022 22: 34
                      Quote: DenVB
                      DenVB

                      Young man, and what does all this nonsense mean in the end? Sweat, blood, sand, shit and girlish tears... nothingso that it is clearer.

                      "The outflow of private capital" is a very broadly interpreted article ... Uzbeks transfer wages to their homeland. For example Yes
                      1. 0
                        21 June 2022 22: 55
                        Quote: Repellent
                        Young man, and what does all this nonsense mean in the end? Sweat, blood, sand, shit and girlish tears ... nothing, so that it was clearer.

                        Why are you getting into a conversation that you are not able to understand?
                      2. 0
                        21 June 2022 23: 00
                        Quote: DenVB
                        Why are you getting into a conversation that you are not able to understand?

                        Why do you write in such a way that your opponent cannot understand you? laughing

                        There are no fools here, I beg you laughing
                      3. -1
                        21 June 2022 23: 08
                        Quote: Repellent
                        Why do you write in such a way that your opponent cannot understand you?

                        Well, not every opponent can be applied. I just don't drink that much.

                        Quote: Repellent
                        There are no fools here, I beg you

                        Yes, it's time to end this useless activity.
                      4. 0
                        21 June 2022 23: 11
                        Quote: DenVB
                        it's time to end this useless activity

                        Here you go. And so it was interesting about the "outflow of private capital".

                        Pancake request
        2. 0
          21 June 2022 18: 02
          You suggested supplementing them - but I suggested not to waste time on trifles and supplement them with frigates
      2. -3
        21 June 2022 16: 21
        The calm is enough against large drones. Calm is quite simple, mastered, it works.
        IMHO, frigates that lack Podiment-Redoubt should be armed with Calm. And there are more anti-aircraft weapons, say, 3-4 AK-630M-2 on a frigate and 6-8 on a destroyer.
        1. +2
          21 June 2022 16: 40
          on which destroyers?
          1. -3
            21 June 2022 16: 58
            Conditional 22350M.
            It is possible to make the displacement even greater, the hull now makes up about 10% of the cost of the ship.
            1. +3
              21 June 2022 17: 25
              Have you worked in the presidential administration? Conditional population, conditional voters, conditional destroyers ...
      3. 0
        22 June 2022 18: 36
        you will have to build turbogenerator "superkarakurts" in pairs. One PLO with 16 air defense, the second air defense with "polyment" and 48 cells for missiles. Leave everything else the same. Then, in the near zone, this pair will be able to do the work of one frigate 22350. Although, in addition to the "package", they also ask for 2 * 4 "onyx" just in case :)
        1. 0
          28 June 2022 03: 38
          Produce highly specialized ships. hmm.. interesting idea good
          A sort of BOD and EM, only less.
    2. 0
      26 June 2022 20: 51
      Why keep reinventing the wheel? Why not look at the projects of leading countries and try to do something similar?
  33. -2
    21 June 2022 13: 43
    The author is wrong.
    Building defenseless shells, severely limited in navigation and the ability to use weapons, is a bad option.
    It is necessary to build ships that replace the whole group, if necessary, capable of challenging the AUG.
    Ships of the first rank.
    And instead of a group of low-combat ships, build majestic ships of the 1st and 2nd ranks, stuffed with weapons to the eyeballs. To have powerful air defense, and anti-aircraft defense and strike power.
    24+ UKKS cells, air defense - Shtil-1, Pantsir, S-300/400 at the first rank. AU - 130-152mm (develop the latter on the basis of Msta or Coalition).
    Options - converted to domestic components 11356 and 22350M. (After all, one of the fleets needs a new flagship, objectively).
    Yes, it will take longer to build shells, but it will significantly increase the combat capabilities of the fleet after being accepted into the composition.
    Engines - diesels and gas turbines, they will suffice.
    And the massive 16-cylinder 5D49 produced 4 hp. With. power instead of 000 for 5D200 or 10 for 49D6.

    Doesn't matter. Just put more engines, 3 instead of two. More fuel consumption? I don't care, you don't have to worry about that right now. Make more tanks.
    Or even think about nuclear power plants for the first rank. Now there are more compact options than those used on the glorious Orlans.
    1. +2
      21 June 2022 14: 50
      The author proposes to build just protected small boats.
      But the trick is that both are needed. And yesterday.
      1. -3
        21 June 2022 15: 55
        I propose to build ships that can replace 2-4 ships at once.
        The undoubted advantage of a large hull is greater seaworthiness.
        And in general, it also provides a psychological effect.
    2. +5
      21 June 2022 15: 06
      Quote: 3danimal
      Doesn't matter. Just put more engines, 3 instead of two. More fuel consumption?

      And what about displacement and speed? Three engines is a large mass and volume. Plus gearboxes to reduce all this to two screws. Plus fuel. And now we need to install the fourth engine to maintain speed with an increased displacement.
      As a result, our corvette will turn into a frigate in terms of displacement, but will remain with corvette weapons.
      Quote: 3danimal
      And instead of a group of low-combat ships, build majestic ships of the 1st and 2nd ranks, stuffed with weapons to the eyeballs. To have powerful air defense, and anti-aircraft defense and strike power.
      24+ UKKS cells, air defense - Shtil-1, Pantsir, S-300/400 at the first rank. AU - 130-152mm (develop the latter on the basis of Msta or Coalition).

      Uh-huh ... like the USSR - two per fleet on a list, one in real service.
      And most importantly, their air defense will still have a fundamental drawback - the radar will not look beyond the radio horizon.
      1. -3
        21 June 2022 15: 58
        Uh-huh ... like the USSR - two per fleet on a list, one in real service.
        And most importantly, their air defense will still have a fundamental drawback - the radar will not look beyond the radio horizon.

        But even one such ship (rank 1) will be able to threaten the whole AUG (it will be reckoned with). Plus one or two frigates to help him.
        Cover SSBNs, provide strong air defense.
        Ka-31 helicopters will allow to increase the radio horizon. (The hangar must be large, for 2 helicopters)
        Three engines is a large mass and volume. Plus gearboxes to reduce all this to two screws. Plus fuel. And now we need to install the fourth engine to maintain speed with an increased displacement.
        As a result, our corvette will turn into a frigate in terms of displacement, but will remain with corvette weapons.

        I was talking about destroyers and frigates.
        Distribute them according to the 1 + 2 scheme for each fleet (except for the Caspian flotilla). They will be able to make long-distance crossings, including hanging off the coast of the United States (to cool their ardor on occasion).
        As an option, consider a nuclear power plant for a destroyer.
        The cost of fuel doesn't matter now. By increasing the number of engines, the capacity of fuel tanks, it will be possible to “catch” the optimal ratio of speed and range. Moreover, 30+ nodes are not needed, 24-27 will be enough (and this is a radical decrease in the required power). A ship is a missile platform, no one will escape missiles.
        Work out the possibility of using 3-4 screws so as not to create too complex gearboxes.
        1. +4
          21 June 2022 17: 39
          Quote: 3danimal
          But even one such ship (rank 1) will be able to threaten the whole AUG (it will be reckoned with).

          One of five? wink
          And yes, to fight with such brontosaurs under artillery fire (© Pan Lem) The USN prepared throughout the Cold War.
          Quote: 3danimal
          Ka-31 helicopters will allow to increase the radio horizon. (The hangar must be large, for 2 helicopters)

          This is OVC. And what about the radars of the air defense systems themselves? Or will we massively launch medium and long-range missiles with ARL GOS and RKTU on the marching section (correction from air defense systems according to data from AWACS)?
          1. -2
            21 June 2022 18: 20
            Or will we massively launch medium and long-range missiles with ARL GOS and RKTU on the marching section (correction from air defense systems according to data from AWACS)?

            You can go the American way: take a long-range missile and install an ARL seeker from the R-77 (on the SM-6 there is a seeker from AIM-120)
            One of five?

            A threat is a threat.
            For the past 20 years, we have heard that American soldiers, sailors and marines are afraid of the Russians. This is where you need to make the most of it. Gotta believe it @Co
      2. -1
        21 June 2022 16: 55
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Plus gearboxes to reduce all this to two screws.

        "Reduction" can be done not with a gearbox, but with electric wires. Aka diesel-electric power plant.

        Quote: Alexey RA
        Three engines is a large mass and volume.

        One M507D - 17 tons. Plus a generator, but that's not much. In general, not such a critical weight for a ~ 1000-ton ship.
        1. +4
          21 June 2022 17: 35
          Quote: DenVB
          One M507D - 17 tons. Plus a generator, but that's not much. In general, not such a critical weight for a ~ 1000-ton ship.

          Reminded classic:
          Thus, the dimensions of the missiles again directly "crawled out" through the ship. “Armed men” did not understand this at all: “Just think, they added“ just something ”(!) Less than a meter of length and less than a ton (!) Of weight” (meaning a new rocket). Looking ahead, we note that these “only something” cost the ship an extra 13 m of length, 2,3 m of width and 2700 of displacement.
          © V.P. Kuzin
          These 17 tons with a generator must be installed somewhere. And you can’t put engines in one compartment - 22160 has already been anathema for such a decision. And now we again have sizes and displacement ...
          1. 0
            21 June 2022 18: 11
            Quote: Alexey RA
            These 17 tons with a generator must be installed somewhere. And you can’t put engines in one compartment

            Just the electric "transmission" makes it easy to spread the engines (more precisely, diesel generators) not only in different compartments, but throughout the ship. After all, the energy transfer does not go along the shaft, but along the cable.

            Quote: Alexey RA
            And now we again swam the size and displacement ...

            This is generally the trouble of small ships. Although I don’t think that due to one engine the dimensions will float much. This is not an extra meter of a rocket that does not fit into the body.
          2. -2
            21 June 2022 18: 24
            Therefore, a larger displacement and physical dimensions of the hull are needed.
            The capacity of the power plant and weapons grows non-linearly with the growth of the ship's displacement.
        2. -2
          21 June 2022 18: 29
          In general, not such a critical weight for a ~ 1000-ton ship.

          1000 tons is still very limited, but 4500 (and 8000+) is another matter.
          The capacity grows non-linearly as the ship's capacity increases.
      3. +1
        21 June 2022 21: 38
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Three engines is a large mass and volume. Plus gearboxes to reduce all this to two screws. Plus fuel. And now we need to install the fourth engine to maintain speed with an increased displacement

        It's just nice to see a competent speech among other nonsense ...
    3. 0
      22 July 2022 11: 47
      Well, what outfit of aviation forces will the enemy need to cope with a corvette and a frigate? And will the frigate be able to shoot down planes with its long-range air defense? If the frigate still can’t cope with aviation, just like the corvette. That 4-corvette will do better than one frigate.
      1. 0
        26 July 2022 04: 15
        Corvettes will simply be torn to pieces if they are attacked by aircraft. Frigates, and even better, destroyers - are able to repulse the formations of ships of a potential enemy.
        1. 0
          27 July 2022 13: 50
          Only two units of Su 34 can launch a volley of 48 PKR, which destroyer or frigate can fight off all this? The author writes that the main task for the Navy now is the BMZ PLO, and the cover of the SSBNs, because the United States can cover us from the BMZ and neutralize all our SSBNs. For this, 30-40 corvettes are vital, because this is what we still know how to do.
          Only from all this, I don’t understand how in a short time in 30 minutes, an hour, all our SSBNs can be disabled, they can also be covered by multi-purpose nuclear submarines, diesel engines ambush on routes, the same BPCs and corvettes on boats 5-6 will be typed for cover.
          And so the author is of course right that you need a flat bmz, but it’s unlikely that it will be possible to create a good air defense ship in the dimension of the Corvette, and it’s hard for any ship against aviation, they can’t do anything to aviation, only fight back on the route from PKR. Aviation must fight aviation. Here, whatever one may say, an uberwafer cannot be made from a ship, a full-fledged fleet is needed, in which each component complemented each other. That is, the best air defense of a ship is its own aircraft above it. If, to protect your BMZ, you need naval aviation, so that Su 34, 30 units with drills and a tanker patrol the coast, cover their surface ships, which, in turn, cover submarines. If it is unrealistic to do this from the shore, then an avik is needed.
          1. 0
            30 July 2022 18: 50
            Only two links su 34, can launch a volley of 48 missiles

            And if all the Russian Aerospace Forces launch anti-ship missiles, then the AUG will not beat off 100%, perhaps. smile
            So what?
            Even in your example: in the air defense configuration, about 70 destroyer cells are occupied by missiles. This is, conditionally, 40 SM-6 with a range of 260 km (and active seeker) and 120 (4 in one cell) ESSM with OBT and 60g overload. All this will be directed by one of the best marine radars in the world with AFAR and a fully automated BIUS, plus an electronic warfare system with a peak power of 1 megawatt. (Try putting it all on a frail corvette)
            A modern ship of the first rank is serious ..
            I don’t understand how in a short time in 30 minutes, an hour, all our SSBNs can be disabled

            The US Navy has a multiple of modern MAPLs, they will wait (as discreetly as possible) in the SSBN patrol areas.
            By the way, in light of Finland's recent accession to NATO (which our leadership can be congratulated on), most of the "strategists" on the Kola Peninsula can be destroyed in less than a minute before they go to sea from Finnish territory.
            to create a good ship in the dimension of a Corvette, beer is unlikely to succeed

            Quite right, at least a frigate good
            it’s hard for any ship against aviation, they can’t do anything to aviation, only fight off anti-ship missiles on the route.

            Right. But part of the problem can be solved by an AWACS helicopter (even if just hanging over the KUG) and a missile defense system with an ARL seeker (like SM-6). And at least some analogue of "Aegis". (In the destroyer hull, of course)
            If it is unrealistic to do this from the shore, then an avik is needed.

            Right.
            The best option in the current conditions is the overhaul of Kuznetsov and the construction of a pair of its more modern counterparts (as an option, nuclear-powered ships, they are perfect for the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet).
            Ideally, yesterday it was necessary to receive a deck-based SKVVP, like the F-35B, in a high degree of readiness. It (10+ pieces) could also be placed on large UDCs, turning the latter into mini-aircraft carriers.
            1. 0
              3 August 2022 14: 36
              Quote: 3danimal
              Right. But part of the problem can be solved by an AWACS helicopter (even if just hanging over the KUG) and a missile defense system with an ARL seeker (like SM-6). And at least some analogue of "Aegis". (In the destroyer hull, of course)

              Well, we don’t seem to have any plans for destroyers, is it possible to recreate this on a frigate? And can air defense really bring down a plane from a distance of 200-400 km? Then the confrontation between the ship and the aircraft will not always be in favor of the aircraft, on the contrary. Good air defense at the KUG will be able to shoot down planes and complete the task assigned to it.
              1. 0
                3 August 2022 16: 22
                Well, we don’t seem to have any plans for destroyers, is it possible to recreate this on a frigate?

                Plans were announced for 21350M, with a total displacement of 8000 tons.
                48 UKKS cells, 64 - Poliment-Redut, hangar for 2 helicopters.
                https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3573462.html

                This is the destroyer, in fact.
                I would increase / to 9-10 thousand tons (more fuel, better habitability and seaworthiness, you can even spend 150-200 tons / and spend on Kevlar).
                As for Poliment-Redoubt, there are questions about how localized its components are.
                Option a'la Lada Grant - install 3 air defense systems: S-300FM + "Shtil-1" + modernized "Dagger" (wetted "Thor"), plus 6-8 ZAK AK-630M2.
                The power plant was supposed to be a gas turbine, but it makes sense to consider a nuclear power plant, there are good solutions from letokol.
                And is it really possible for air defense to bring down a plane from a distance of 200-400 km

                Maybe. Let's say an attacking group F / A-18 at a distance of about 200 km. Provided that the AWACS helicopter sees them, including at low altitude.
                And a prerequisite is the presence of an active radar seeker.
                Then the confrontation between the ship and the aircraft will not always be in favor of the aircraft, on the contrary.

                By itself, shelling the air group will seriously undermine their mission: they will have to get rid of anti-ship missiles in order to increase their chances of evading missiles.
                Good air defense at the KUG will be able to shoot down planes and complete the task assigned to it.

                Rather fight back, disrupt the attack and continue the task good
                1. 0
                  4 August 2022 14: 43
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  Maybe. Let's say an attacking group F / A-18 at a distance of about 200 km. Provided that the AWACS helicopter sees them, including at low altitude.
                  And a prerequisite is the presence of an active radar seeker

                  Poliment-Redoubt is the one on frigates, it seems only at a range of 150 km. But 150-200 km is of course a steep range, if the AWACS helicopter can give target designation for 8 hornets per 200 km, they need to fly in a straight line until they meet the missile. And so any not very energetic, and very much smeared snake will kill all the energy of an air defense missile. 50 or less kilometers is already dangerous for a hornet. or I'm wrong? I don’t understand how the S-400 or 500 has such ranges for a maneuvering target)))
                  1. 0
                    5 August 2022 03: 31
                    But 150-200km is of course a steep range, if the AWACS helicopter can give target designation for 8 hornets per 200 km

                    I proceeded from the fact that the frigate + / destroyer has missiles with a longer range, 300+ km.
                    This parameter is always given for launches against a non-maneuvering target flying towards, such as a transport.
                    But if you are firing at a high-speed and maneuverable multi-role fighter, you can safely reduce the Max range by half, if in the ZPS (the plane flies away from you), then by another 1,5-2 times.
                    As I said earlier: the shelling of the F-18 group will force them to get rid of fairly heavy anti-ship missiles, which will disrupt the attack. Let them successfully leave the missiles and return back. The mission is failed.
                    1. 0
                      8 August 2022 00: 07
                      Let them successfully leave the missiles and return back. The mission is failed.

                      Oh, don’t know that it’s still hard to believe in air defense now, looking at the same conflict in Ukraine. There, the S-300s somehow showed themselves poorly, aviation seems to have a longer arm)
                      I proceeded from the fact that the frigate + / destroyer has missiles with a longer range, 300+ km.

                      With such capabilities, there would be more frigates, consider missile defense can be moved away from their shores. How can the Japanese put around their shores, and let someone fly up))) their own anti-submarine is easier under an umbrella, and if a fighter can happen, it can hide. And now two such air defenses of the entire Black Sea would be provided, and the presence of a large number of calibers on each would also come in handy, it would be possible to look for something for the reconnaissance of the marines, and destroy from frigates, ala special operations of fur seals))
                      Well, as examples were recently given with Libya, it would be possible to provide a fieldless zone by providing an umbrella over the coastal territory with a frigate with long-range air defense.
                      The required ship.
                      1. 0
                        8 August 2022 04: 23
                        having provided an umbrella over the coastal territory with a frigate with long-range air defense.
                        The required ship.

                        We need a strong-willed decision to build them. With a lack of capacity - build them, including in the Far East. So that the Pacific Fleet ceases to feel like a "distant relative."
                        The second point: the problem with the power plant. About 50-70 MW are needed, there may be problems with gas turbine plants due to problems with imported components.
                        Therefore, a good solution would be to use a nuclear power plant, RITM-200 for example.
                        The first produces 55 MW of electric power or 30 MW on the shaft. But it has a total mass of 2200 tons, which sets the displacement of the ship at least 9000-10000 tons.
                        IMHO, the electric option (full electric propulsion) is more profitable when the generator supplies power to the traction motors. Then we will get about 50+ MW.
                        For comparison: the American Arleigh Burke has 4 LM2500 GTUs, producing a maximum of 76 MW and having a mass of about 1200-1450 tons with fuel. It is important to note that the maximum operating modes are rarely used.
                        A nuclear power plant of 50-55 MW, of course, will not allow a 9000-ton ship to accelerate to 32 knots, but a speed of about 26-27 knots is quite sufficient, given that the nuclear-powered ship is able to maintain it for a long time, and recharging with fuel is required every 7-10 years (!).
                      2. 0
                        8 August 2022 09: 35
                        Therefore, a good solution would be to use a nuclear power plant, RITM-200 for example.

                        What will be the difference in price?
                      3. 0
                        8 August 2022 11: 13
                        What will be the difference in price?

                        This is not so important.
                        Ships of the 1st rank are a priori not very numerous, there are no diesel engines for them, there are also difficulties with gas turbines, but there is quite a nuclear power plant. request
                        Military equipment is generally not profitable from the point of view of efficiency, for example, the engines of a passenger aircraft and a bomber.
                        Important decision (IMHO) - use of full electric propulsion on all new designed ships of rank 1/2/3.
                        There is no need for complex gearboxes, there is flexibility in the location of the power plant, its survivability and energy distribution.
                      4. 0
                        11 August 2022 11: 19
                        what will be the price difference?

                        I dug around and found about prices:
                        GTU M-70FR with a capacity of 20,2 MW costs about 600 million rubles;
                        RITM-200 (electric power 55 MW or 30 MW on the shaft) costs about 4000 million (4 billion) rubles.
                        Those. RITM-200 is comparable in performance with 1,5-2,6 M-70FR turbines, in terms of money it is like 900-1560 million rubles against 4000 million.
                        Yes, the price tag of the reactor is higher, but it should have a comparable or lower price when used for a long time (the turbine will burn thousands of tons of fuel during operation), I already spoke about advantages like the ability to go full speed for XNUMX hours.
                        Minus - the nuclear-powered ship will not be able to enter the Black Sea, but corvettes (ideally diesel-electric) are just enough for it.
                      5. 0
                        11 August 2022 12: 58
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Yes, the reactor has a higher price tag

                        Of course, it’s a little expensive if you make a series of 30. But here again, in the light of the future appearance of air-based hypersonic anti-ship missiles, will large, expensive ships go to rest? A stealth bomber or a hawk will not hunt for such ships?
                      6. 0
                        11 August 2022 14: 10
                        It’s a little expensive, of course, if you make a series of 30

                        Not so if you count the cost of fuel.
                        if a series of 30 do

                        What 30 belay
                        It would be nice to have 6-10 of these ..
                        in the light of the future emergence of air-based hypersonic anti-ship missiles

                        Hypersound flies high and is visible from afar.
                        Ships of the 1st rank still have a chance to fight off a small number of such missiles.
                        By the way, it would be interesting to file a ship-launched anti-ship missile based on the Iskander.
                        Create separate launchers for it.
                        A stealth bomber or a hawk will not hunt for such ships?

                        These aircraft will be armed with subsonic stealth missiles. The Americans, the Swedes have relied on them.
                        But the ship in the ocean must first be found. The ocean is big.
  34. 0
    21 June 2022 14: 14
    in Russia there is simply no technical possibility to provide the required level of machining of products, there are no necessary alloys, automation and precision mechanics. In order to solve these problems, a separate state program is needed,

    The author, for gas turbine engines, both alloys and machine tools are available, but not for piston rings and fuel equipment? And forgings for crankshafts - is there really nowhere to take it? The fact that Kolomna people make it somewhere does not mean that it cannot be done in Russia.
    1. +6
      21 June 2022 16: 16
      The author, for gas turbine engines, both alloys and machine tools are available, but not for piston rings and fuel equipment?


      So.

      And forgings for crankshafts - is there really nowhere to take it?


      Theoretically you are right. In practice, Westerners have much better steel, so the question is open.

      The fact that Kolomna people make it somewhere does not mean that it cannot be done in Russia.


      The answer to this is in the article, be careful.

      In order for these problems to be solved, a separate state program is needed, in which there will be no place for all sorts of traditional Russian cuts, kickbacks, and most importantly, incompetence. But our state machine cannot get rid of incompetent personnel even in war conditions, so you just need to forget about Kolomna, period.
    2. -2
      21 June 2022 17: 54
      You shouldn’t take the author’s writings seriously in vain. Most recently, he tried to convince his interlocutors that he was a genius from birth, and for this reason he has the legal right to more resources :). There are no problems with forgings, fuel equipment, or turbochargers. foreign competitors simply open up by hook or by crook, trying to integrate into production chains in order to control production, sales with the ultimate goal of destroying production as such. -i-ge-tretya-popytka-ameriki
      1. +1
        21 June 2022 18: 28
        Quote: Vladimir Michailovich
        There are no problems with forgings, fuel equipment, or turbochargers.

        What's the problem then?
      2. +4
        22 June 2022 13: 43
        Blah blah blah no problem.
        Soon everyone will see how, by the way,
  35. -1
    21 June 2022 14: 48
    Although in general I support, but I want to remind you:
    The EASIEST way is to build LARGE multi-purpose ships.
    Unless, of course, they are truly multi-purpose.
    For an IPC or a small corvette, there really is no need for complications.
    2xPantsir-M. With missiles at 40 km, and with remote detonation of shells for 30mm machine guns.
    1x76mm
    8-16 PU 3S14
    2x4 Package-NK in a lightweight case.
    At the back, make a flat deck flush with the superstructure, aka Visby. And there will be more space, and a platform for a turntable or drones, (refueling)
    Etc. and preferably as soon as possible.

    But! You are talking about speed. If we can produce and produce turbines quickly, then I don’t care about efficiency and high cost - there is a question of MASS.

    So, build large ships under 7500-10500 thousand tons, not trying to shove the unimpressible, but calmly placing weapons:
    1 AU 130mm
    32-48 3S14 PU
    Polyment Redoubt x32 or more slots
    HAK normal
    12-16x Package-NK
    4xPantsir-M
    2 helicopters/UAV
    With large gas turbines (or, as I was told in the comments, combined combined cycle turbines), which we can (if we can, of course, NPO Saturn worked in cooperation with GE), with a large reserve for modernization and autonomy.

    Load them with shipyards that can build it, and do not suffer from "corvettes" - let them be built by small factories that are good at this

    And most importantly - to urgently make a UAV for radar reconnaissance, aka UAV-DRLO in the size of a Helicopter.
    And to establish the production of AWACS aircraft. So that in every direction each fleet has them.
    And not 10 cars, God forbid, for the whole of Russia.
    1. +6
      21 June 2022 16: 11
      With large gas turbines (or, as I was told in the comments, combined combined cycle turbines), which we can (if we can, of course, NPO Saturn worked in cooperation with GE), with a large reserve for modernization and autonomy.


      It is necessary to finish the gearbox for MA7, then yes. But it is still being drawn, no one knows how many years with our approaches it will take to finish drawing, manufacturing, testing.
      And that's right, yes.

      But the tasks of the corvettes will not disappear from this
    2. 0
      28 June 2022 04: 12
      2xPantsir-M. With missiles at 40 km, and with remote detonation of shells for 30mm machine guns.
      1x76mm
      8-16 PU 3S14

      Be humble.
      Why frail IPC so much?
      Enough 2x2 inclined launchers for Caliber / rocket torpedoes on deck.
      SAM - more than enough modernized "Dagger" (seasoned Thor).
      The gun is 76mm, for which there will be shells with a radio fuse.
      The problem of dist undermining 30mm is the presence of fairly advanced microelectronics.
      In 10 years (I would give 20), they promise to bring the domestic one to the level of Intel in 2014. That's when you can talk about it.
      So build large ships under 7500-10500 thousand tons, without trying to shove the unpushable

      A good idea good But perhaps it will turn out 30-50% more, taking into account further proposals.
      1 AU 130mm
      32-48 3S14 PU
      Polyment Redoubt x32 or more slots
      HAK normal
      12-16x Package-NK
      4xPantsir-M

      AU - better than 152mm, IMHO. Develop on the basis of Msta-M (simpler, more reliable, up to woven). Will be able to use special ammunition, the times ahead are turbulent.
      By the number of UVP - I agree good
      But with Poliment now there may be questions. What is the share of critically important imported components in it?
      Isn't it better to install S-300FM on the first hulls? He is quite worthy.
      HAK, torpedoes - that's right.
      But Pantsir .. The author of the article mentioned his problems and the need to create a new radar.
      I would suggest the same air defense system "Dagger", modernized.
      An option is to place also the Shtil-1 air defense system additionally. This is a washed-out Buk-M2 / 3, with UVP - a serious thing.
      And at least 6-8 AK-630M-2, for the "finished fire" anti-ship missiles.
      Then you get a practically invulnerable ship, with long, medium and short range air defense systems. A bunch of shock missiles, missile torpedoes.
      A sort of younger brother of "Peter the Great" (pr 1144 "Orlan"), but more toothy. Which Burke, and Zumvolt and the whole AUG will be afraid of.
      With large gas turbines (or, as I was told in the comments, combined combined cycle turbines), which we can (if we can, of course, NPO Saturn worked in cooperation with GE)

      It is worth considering the possibility of using a nuclear power plant on such a powerful ship. After all, this will allow him to carry out long transitions at a speed of 25-30 knots. The Russian Federation has huge groundwork in this area, according to the experience of building and operating icebreakers.
      As a reserve - put a group of diesel engines that will allow you to get to the base at a speed of about 8-10 knots.
      And not 10 cars, God forbid, for the whole of Russia.

      The problem is electronics. A-100 is stalling, and in light of problems with the purchase of components, their production is not in the form of a prototype is still in doubt.
      The option is to produce the A-50U now. Yes, this is a plane from the 90s, but the quantity will turn into quality. Temporary solution.
  36. +4
    21 June 2022 15: 55
    Since our effective ones in peacetime scored on import substitution of components and materials for the defense industry, now we will wait 10 years for new domestic corvettes or small multi-purpose ships.
    No needs of the fleet will be covered by anything.
    This is a utopia in the article.
    And from the top of power, there is also no promising news in this regard at all.
    Therefore, they wrote an article, reasoned smartly and forgot ...
    We are sitting on the mainland, surrounded by missiles and air defense and not buzzing. The ocean and the seas, any massive and significant protection of the coast and caravans of ships from the sea will not shine for us in the coming years.
    Now, if such effective ones were executed along with the Nazis from Azov, for example, the current managers would take their heads more thoroughly. and no one is really responsible for anything. One chatter and 0 cases in the fleet.
    The dead-end watchdogs were even closed in production, recognizing that for so many years they sawed loot on ears.
    1. +1
      21 June 2022 16: 09
      Therefore, they wrote an article, reasoned smartly and forgot ...


      Not this time.
      1. +1
        23 June 2022 17: 41
        Alexander You are a very good prophet, I hope this time you will hit the target.
        I remember the times when you scolded RTOs, and now we have lived to such times when RTOs become almost the only hope. Let's hope that in the next war, sailors will be with ships, and not with Chinese inflatable boats.
        In civil aviation, problems are slowly but beginning to be resolved. imported components that used to fly abroad began to be repaired in the Russian Federation, not all components of course, but the range is expanding.
  37. 0
    21 June 2022 17: 46
    Quote: Serg65
    I suspect that under the current conditions, the Kolomna plant is waiting for bankruptcy and a transition to the public sector, as well as the Admiralty shipyards

    Absolutely true, the Kolomna Plant should be nationalized by confiscation from the current owners, since their policy threatens the security of the Russian Federation.
    Once again, Transmashholding is not just a private company, but a foreign private company, which is controlled by the main competitor of the Kolomna plant in the diesel locomotive theme, GE.
    1. +1
      27 June 2022 14: 40
      those. is it necessary to nationalize the plant, which at the moment, unlike Zvezda, is fulfilling its obligations instead of solving problems that will have to be solved anyway? Such bankruptcy games can only lose trained personnel and squander the industry, which will again have to be restored for 10-15 years
  38. +1
    21 June 2022 17: 52
    What does "mobilization" mean? If you can't build normal ships or cars, then don't. In fact, it is necessary to increase the re-creation of the mobilization economy - the relevant ministries, and the Ministry of Industry and Trade, in general, to disperse - there are only lawyers (financial scrollers). Only with the PROFILE minister can you ask for the result. And the Security Council will set tasks. (Only it will be necessary to go to the service every day, draw up plans and sign with the boss.)
    1. +1
      21 June 2022 18: 18
      Quote: iouris
      and the Ministry of Industry and Trade, in general, should be dispersed - there are only lawyers (financial scrollers).

      Not only the Ministry of Industry and Trade.

      I still remember Rakhmanov's long-standing interview at Russia-24, shortly after his appointment to USC. He talked for a long time about the prospects of USC, about the team of unique financiers he personally selected, and how competently they would manage financial flows. About the ships that his office should build, he did not say anything in half an hour of the interview. And why? What's with the ships?
    2. +1
      27 June 2022 14: 39
      this is a transfusion from empty to empty - you need to set a task, appoint a responsible person and allocate funding
    3. +1
      27 June 2022 14: 47
      and yes, we don’t need a mobilization ship, we need a ship or two that will become the backbone of our fleet — at the moment it’s a SuperKarakurt sawn into an IPC / corvette OVR, and either you simplified the Thundering air defense plan or the Burevestnik reinforced in terms of strike weapons. We leave the rest in terms of the gradual deployment of the fleet .. As an option, Thundering + Burevestnik can be built in parallel at shipyards if it is impossible to switch to a separate ship .. the task is to get a massive ship, since any quality can be killed by quantity, and build them without introducing know-how , but only proven iron
  39. -2
    21 June 2022 17: 57
    Quote: nespich
    This is the best ship for escorting foreign military and civilian ships out of Russian territorial waters!

    But it’s interesting how the Potemkin battleship, conditional there, would be drowned? Having a full armor belt of 102-229mm, a deck of 51mm.
    1. +1
      21 June 2022 18: 05
      130mm shells or a pair of missiles that successfully penetrate and not
  40. +1
    21 June 2022 18: 04
    This is all interesting, of course, but who said that Timokhin-Klimov would be heard from the Decisive Guide? In the meantime, this is not so, all this philosophical talk is not about anything.
  41. +1
    21 June 2022 18: 15
    Your idea is quite sound, only the high command is unlikely to like it.
    You can even without being Messing, assume that the main task of those who have to do something now will be - it's stupid to throw up their hands and say that we can't do anything - because of the sanctions. In order to fix something, we need money, a lot of money, and so that no one controls them ...
  42. -2
    21 June 2022 18: 26
    Since such a question, it is more expedient to strengthen the fleet with many submarines. Germany in WWII inflicted very serious damage on the Allied navies, given the difference in potentials, largely due to them.
    1. +7
      22 June 2022 13: 41
      And lost the Submarine War TWO TIMES

      Here is an article for submarine lovers, especially - https://topwar.ru/183065-skrytnosti-bolshe-net-podlodki-privychnogo-nam-vida-obrecheny.html
      1. +1
        22 June 2022 16: 52
        Dear author, if this time things get off the ground (I hope this is true and you have confirmation of this issue),
        There are chances that they will think a little, I don’t know, they will arrange a collective rally and debriefing, or maybe a project competition, etc.?
        Because in our country even the words "unification" and "combat module" are badly understood, the bumps would at least explain this on their fingers, I am silent about kicking the bumps and the real presence in production, and not the fraud to the commander-in-chief ....
      2. +1
        23 June 2022 10: 25
        Well, given the overall potential of the Allied fleet (I also mean the aviation of the Navy) and the strategic position of Germany, it could not be otherwise. I just think that it was unrealistic to achieve the sunk tonnage of the Allied fleet for 39-43 years by other methods) Marshall, Greffrat - "The Second World War at sea and in the air" - 2011 - if interested) With regards to the article, I got acquainted. But then more and more about "theory", roughly speaking. And practice, for example, the actions of the UK Navy in the Falklands conflict. Where URO frigates were lost and so on ... And where exactly the arrival of the submarine in the combat area led to the sinking of the flagship of the Argetina Navy, and after which its fleet no longer left the deployment bases. And so, the question of money and time above all. Small diesel submarines are easier and faster to cost, if our country had the opportunity, it is clear that such ideas would not have arisen)
  43. -1
    21 June 2022 18: 30
    22800 is a good project, especially with Pantsir-ME. Artillery, 76 mm is not a gift, given the 15 km range and 120 rounds per minute, 8 onyx / calibers in 2 versions, anti-ship missiles and for stationary and Pantsir-ME with small but advanced missiles, of which there are many, but also for sea targets can plus 12 30mm barrels, 30 knots full stroke.
    We have to build.
    1. 0
      22 June 2022 16: 53
      Only there would be two shells, with the ability to guide the target in TWO radars and, in principle, greater opportunities for intercepting targets.
      And no PLO and UAV, and so the project is wonderful
      1. +1
        22 June 2022 22: 46
        There is nowhere to put two BM "Shell-M" on 22800.
        I would generally move cannon armament from the Pantsirya-M BM to separate artillery mounts, and remove the under-deck drums for reloading missiles, while increasing the number of missiles on the BM to 18-24 instead of the current 8. It would turn out to be some kind of analogue of C- RAM
        1. +2
          23 June 2022 13: 14
          Firstly, then this is TOR, it has better missiles and a guidance system.
          Secondly, I would remove the underdeck in principle, 8-12 missiles on the x2 installation are 16-24 combat-ready missiles.
          And a raid on RTOs in 12+ anti-ship missiles is not funny, this is a total overspending of BC and money
          1. +1
            28 June 2022 11: 58
            the Pantsir has a higher range, and 18 missiles of the marine analogue Pantsir-SA are enough for the eyes, but it is doubtful that the naval ones will agree to this .. By the way, as an option, you can work out a scheme for combining 30 mm guns and guided missiles by analogy with the Sosna-RA air defense missile system and ak -301

  44. 0
    21 June 2022 18: 46
    Quote: Devil13
    With large gas turbines (or, as I was told in the comments, combined combined cycle turbines)

    There are no combined turbines.
    1. -1
      22 June 2022 16: 55
      It happens, it is called steam-gas. It is already used at power plants, from the pros - the efficiency is almost 2 times more, with the same fuel consumption.
      1. +1
        22 June 2022 17: 49
        Yes, where do you get this tops from, there are no pluses there, and it can’t be. All this is nonsense and Siemens propaganda. Usually, two INDEPENDENT power units operate at stations, a PTU with its own generator and a GTU with its own. The gas turbine is used for power maneuvering. At the same time, the gas turbine has a real efficiency of 15-20% at best, compared to 30-35% for the PTU. In turn, the need for power regulation arose due to the destruction of the unified energy system in the interests of foreign capital, - which supplies 100% of gas turbines to the Russian market. Thus, the rejection of the unified energy system and the introduction of imported gas turbines led to an increase in the cost of electricity by 20-50%. (In the USSR, gas turbines were not used at power plants precisely for this reason, except for experimental ones).
  45. 0
    21 June 2022 18: 55
    Quote: DenVB
    Quote: Vladimir Michailovich
    There are no problems with forgings, fuel equipment, or turbochargers.

    What's the problem then?

    The country is run by lobbyists of foreign corporations, that's what capitalism is.
  46. -3
    21 June 2022 18: 56
    Quote: Devil13
    130mm shells or a pair of missiles that successfully penetrate and not

    There are no armor-piercing shells for a long time, but what do missiles pierce a cardboard board?
    1. 0
      28 June 2022 10: 09
      Decks larger than 150mm (separated, 100 + 50 let's say) did not exist and will not exist.
      A rocket is not a projectile, it can hit anywhere.
      And 4,5 tons at a speed of Mach 3 (Onyx) hitting the deck from above, from a warhead to a slow (penetrating) detonation - you know, it’s not countered by armor.
      Yes, the damage area will be smaller, but still, an explosion of 300+ kg of TNT is a mini-Armageddian of the torpedo detonation level, only without water restrictions.
      1. 0
        28 June 2022 11: 02
        What are you carrying?
  47. -2
    21 June 2022 20: 57
    In May 2022, Russia began mass production of M-55R gas turbine engines for our frigates. Sanctions against Russia have been in place for a long time, and even more so, they concern our military production, so it is doubtful that imported components were used in new units. Therefore, it seems to me that the author’s worries that, due to Western sanctions, the domestic production of diesel engines, and with it our shipbuilding, will stop, are far-fetched ... And the larger the ship, the more weapons and everything else can be stuffed into it, it is more stable as a combat platform, therefore, relying on the primitivization of the fleet, reducing it to missile boats, is wrong .... On the contrary, we need to rely on the speedy commissioning of our heavy warships, which are being repaired and mothballed ... This is the "Admiral Kuznetsov", "Admiral Nakhimov" and long-suffering: "Admiral Lazarev" and "Admiral Ushakov" (cruiser "Kirov"). Each such ship (I mean "eagles") has a displacement of 30 times more than "buoys" and "karakurts", respectively, more weapons can be placed, and in reality even more, because the mass of the hull is relatively small on large ships , engine power and more displacement remain under armament .... And most importantly: these ships have ALREADY been built, they do not need diesel engines, they only need to be modernized, so any ship needs to be modernized from time to time, the same "karakurts" including .... Moreover, such ships are needed after the loss of the Moskva cruiser. "The Rostec State Corporation has begun mass production of M-55R gas turbine engines. The units are designed for Russian frigates. The head of the state corporation Sergey Chemezov reported this to Russian President Vladimir Putin, RIA Novosti reports." (May 18, 2022 https://lenta.ru/ news/2022/05/18/m55r/)
    1. +5
      22 June 2022 06: 09
      turn, we need to rely on the speedy commissioning of our heavy warships, which are under repair and mothballing ... These are the Admiral Kuznetsov, Admiral Nakhimov and the long-suffering ones: Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov (cruiser "Kirov").

      They realized it. Consider Lazarus gone. In that year, he was driven into the dock of the 30th ship repair for cutting into metal. The state also paid for it. The price of the request is 5 billion rubles. Today it looks like this:



      But Lazarev was in a much better condition than Kirov, propped up by pontoons, which without them would have gone to the bottom a long time ago. Lazar was even debugged and painted on the hull. And they did it conscientiously, as evidenced by minimal corrosion in the pictures. I published an article about this a year ago "Save Admiral Lazarev" (link: https://topwar.ru/184525-spasti-admirala-lazareva.html) and even wrote to Konstantin Semin, about which he made a video "Little Fleet", but except for a small number of enthusiasts, no one supported the initiative
    2. +3
      22 June 2022 13: 39
      M55 is not an engine, it is a diesel-gas turbine unit (DGTU) as part of a 10D49 mid-flight diesel engine manufactured by Kolomensky Zavod JSC, an M-90FR afterburner gas turbine manufactured by UEC, and a RO55 reducer-adder manufactured by Zvezda-reduktor LLC.
      Understand what you write please.
      1. 0
        23 June 2022 16: 25
        I am right in essence: mobilization aircraft, L.D. Tomashevich (we are talking about the light attack aircraft "Pegasus"), we have already passed: even during the Second World War they were not useful, especially now it is not World War II ... And it is so obvious that a large ship can fit much MORE weapons than a lot small boats, albeit equal to it in displacement. In general, almost the entire American fleet is very old: the Nimitz aircraft carriers are 30-40 years old (the lead ship of the series is already 47 years old and is in service), almost the same number of nuclear submarines of the Los Angeles type (the oldest ship in the series is 36 years old), the Ticonderoga cruisers are no less ancient (the oldest is 36 years old), many destroyers are very old, etc., and no one cuts them, the Americans take care of their ships and periodically modernize them ... Nobody tries to scrap aircraft carriers, replacing them with many missile boats. This is normal ... And we have all sorts of "well-wishers"
        they tried to send the nuclear cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" to the needles and the TAVKR "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov" - too ... "DIESEL-GAS TURBINE PLANT. combined power plant, in which internal combustion engines and gas turbines are used as main engines" https://sea_enc_reference.academic.ru/900/DIESEL-GAS TURBINE_PLANT
        1. 0
          24 June 2022 06: 56
          and no one cuts them, the Americans take care of their ships and periodically modernize them ... Nobody is trying to scrap aircraft carriers, replacing them with many missile boats.


          This is so far, it’s just that until now the Papuans have not been supplied with serious weapons. After the first war, where the Papuans will have Bastions with Zircons, and not far from the American AB, a "neutral" scout will be spinning, they may change their mind.)))

          And in our country, various kinds of "well-wishers" tried to send the nuclear cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" to the needles and the TAVKR "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov" - too ...


          Do you think Moscow is undignified, and should the fleet be given the opportunity to fall in love with something by 25-50 kt?
          1. 0
            5 July 2022 01: 56
            Will it be better to "fall in love" with three dozen "mobilization" ships? - They are practically without air defense, so it will be one entertainment to sink them ... And the reason for the death of the "Moscow" has not been clarified, it is possible that it was a sabotage .... And as for the American fleet and the fact that they will be in the future to cut their pretty aged ships, these are just assumptions, in any case, the Americans rely on large ships stuffed with heavy weapons, they are not interested in "ersatz ships" and this is reasonable ...
  48. +1
    21 June 2022 23: 09
    Mixed together horses, people ... The author in one article solved the problems of several ministries and departments. Thought giant? Lomonosov and Davinci are resting! I have worked for almost 10 years in a company that produces and sells forgings. There are 18-20 such pieces all over the world. As for the rings and parts of the CPG for ships, I think the situation is the same. We took our products to Germany, and to the finish line, to Ukraine (up to 14 years). The Germans did more expensive and worse in terms of time. Equipment for production was three orders of magnitude more expensive than the product. We are talking about a unique product worth millions of dollars. And which one would produce rings for a dozen engines a year? Just a pest. And even now it is long, expensive and unrealistic until we start producing hundreds of bulk carriers, lighters, and tankers. Then truly Russian marine engines will appear.
  49. 0
    22 June 2022 13: 50
    Quote: dmb91
    And even now it is long, expensive and unrealistic until we start producing hundreds of bulk carriers, lighters, and tankers. Then truly Russian marine engines will appear.

    Kolomna engines, in addition to surface ships, are also used for submarines and locomotives. But the American GE, including in the Russian Federation, is actively replacing them from the last market. Therefore, serial production can only be increased by closing the market from foreign competition.
    1. +1
      23 June 2022 13: 19
      But nothing that GE is in cooperation with them?
      And don’t worry, GE has huge problems, in connection with which 80% of power plants in the Russian Federation have a year of operation without maintenance, if the borders are not opened, we will be left without energy
  50. 0
    22 June 2022 16: 52
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Blah blah blah no problem.
    Soon everyone will see how, by the way,

    Who is all this? It is not clear why the St. Petersburg Star does not have insurmountable problems with forgings and fuel equipment, but Kolomna does?
  51. +1
    23 June 2022 04: 26
    Three ships in three years means 9–10 ships by the time the aggravation of contradictions with the United States may lead to open conflict (2030s).

    What kind of open conflict are we talking about if, according to various estimates, Russia will have to recover and adapt to “structural changes” in the economy over the next 10-15 years?
    How many destroyers and small submarines will they build, having the best components available in the world, without suffering from restrictions?
  52. +3
    23 June 2022 07: 47
    Dear author, to create a small mobilization ship, billions of money will be spent on design, R&D, etc. and years of time for various approvals and setup of industrial enterprises. The first copy will appear in 10 years at best. It will still need to be brought to mind. Building quickly is not our style. In order not to reinvent the wheel twice, we can choose something for this from what we have. What, for example, is bad about the 380 Corvette? He already has everything for a small ASW, with the exception of the PLUR. It has a Redoubt air defense system with 12 cells. One 4-cell module can be removed from the housing and a 4-cell module can be inserted under the PLUR with all associated equipment. Those. one UKSK 3S-14 module. Four missiles in a salvo are sufficient for one submarine. The remaining 8 slots for missile defense can accommodate 32 9M100 missiles. This version of the air defense system was proposed by your respected TsMKB Almaz in its MPC project. Experts considered that this was enough for the self-defense of a close-range anti-submarine officer. This ship has both GAS and BuGAS and OGAS helicopter and UAV. On such a corvette there is no need to install a golden tower, and instead of the Furke-2 station, you can install a Positive-M superstructure, and you can also install a regular superstructure. This will reduce the cost of the ship and shorten its construction period. Kolomna has a new D500 engine on the way. It is more powerful and more localized. It will be possible to install it on corvettes. Well, or switch to St. Petersburg M507, which I wouldn’t want. They are high-speed, make a lot of noise and have a short service life. An extreme case is Chinese engines.
    Everything on this corvette has been mastered by industry. It would be possible to quickly increase the naval strength of the anti-submarine forces. At least you can put 4 PLURs on already built corvettes. Now it has been decided to modernize the 380s and for some reason put a turret on them. It would be better to install PLUR. This would be a good, working option for the situation in which we find ourselves. And we no longer have time to invent something new, plan and experiment. At all.
    1. 0
      23 June 2022 13: 17
      Because 22800 and everything for it has also been mastered by industry.
      And 20380 can be built faster in 5-7 years, plus it is huge in cost.
      For the price of 1 of these, you can build three proposed by the author. And 3 times faster.
      Accordingly, 3 times faster and 9 times more saturating the Navy.

      Here they do not propose to invent something new, taking EVERYTHING old. Rearranging a finished project using the design bureau takes a couple of months with normal technical specifications
      1. +1
        23 June 2022 18: 11
        Dear Dèvil13, Karakurt will never make an anti-submarine carrier. He has 6 engines in the MKO, that's 336 cylinders and they all rattle. In addition, its exhaust gases are vented into the water, which further aggravates its noise. The boat will hear it while in the neighboring sea. This RTO does not have any search equipment and does not have a helicopter. He's not much of a boat hunter. The boat will easily drown him. If you put on it everything that an anti-submarine officer needs, then it will simply sink at the outfitting wall of the plant. “Karakurt” needs to be left alone. He's good for his task. As far as I understand, the author is talking about the design and construction of another ship, which has nothing in common with Karakurt, and the author allocates 1,5-2 years only for design in a mobilization order. And you want to do this in 2-3 months. The design and preparation of technical documentation for the modernization of the lead corvette began at the end of last year and is promised to be completed by the end of this year. Then they will begin work on replacing the Dirk with the Redoubt, but this is not done so quickly. If we design a small anti-submarine vessel with all the necessary complexes - GAS in the bow bulb, BuGAS in the aft compartment, OGAS, PTZ, with a platform and hangar for a helicopter, with air defense, with an attack complex, then its dimensions and displacement will inevitably approach those of a corvette. This will be required by technical necessity and constructive logic. There may be a slight difference. And it will cost about the same. Corvette designers have reduced it to reasonable limits. To build a small ship and have everything on it, and also be cheap and so that it can be built in two years, is not going to work out. Give up hope. I propose to install 4 PLURs on already built corvettes. There are 7 of them in service. Two more are on the way. Maybe a third one will come too. In total, you can make a dozen good anti-submarine corvettes. This is already something. And these ships already exist physically. They need to be improved. This can be done quickly in conditions when the MPCs built in the USSR and the GDR are on their last legs. Well, at the same time, you can start inventing if you give money.
        1. 0
          24 June 2022 12: 44
          In fact, it is possible to make an anti-submarine weapon, but it will be scanty. The ship will transfer to the combat duty site with only the additionally installed sonar system "Packet-A" or an analogue for issuing command control to anti-torpedoes from hydroacoustic means.

          On the spot, he will stand on the stop and monitor the situation from the lowered sonar station. If the RTPU “Package” has MTT torpedoes, attack detected boats with them, and when upgrading the KASU to a level that allows the use of 91R and RT anti-ship missiles, hit submarines with them beyond the minimum range.
          A network of such floats will be a big problem for a submarine; one ship, of course, not so much.

          In addition, there is an option to fire PLR ​​at the guidance of another ship, for example 20380
          1. +1
            27 June 2022 15: 30
            There are three basic aspects of production: fast-high-quality-cheap, one of them needs to be sacrificed, we need a budget mass ship, i.e. a budget corvette OVR/MPK to cover the coast and a budget corvette/frigate based on Gremyashchy or Burevestnik, which can be sent to neighboring seas/oceans while the program for building an oceanic fleet unfolds... And here it’s just easier to help Kolomna residents localize products in order to get a series of low and medium speed diesel engines rather than having to give birth to a Star again in pain, which will have to be abandoned in 10 years.
          2. 0
            28 June 2022 18: 45
            Dear author, yes, it is really possible at Karakurt to tighten the aft superstructure and install there two Packages, 4 pipes per side and a lowered sonar, Anapa. But you can only work with it when the ship is in a drift and its capabilities are limited. In addition, it will descend in the stern area, where exhaust gases are discharged into the water. And although the main engines are stopped, auxiliary diesel generators are running, which will suppress the operation of the station. The effect of such work will not be great. In addition, you need to install a control system and convert the cells for PLUR. And the ship was built as a mobile missile system for firing at coastal objects at a great distance of up to 1,5 - 2,5 thousand km. Only he moves not on land, but on water. The ship loses this function in this case. But it will still be a weak anti-submarine fighter, or, as you say, scanty. Is the game worth the candle? Let's leave Karakurt to complete our task.
            You should write an article about the modernization of corvettes. On 20380 you can and should put 4 PLUR. This can be done on 10 corvettes already built. The engine problem will not affect them. There will be good PLO ships. Just crazy ones, but something simpler.
            And on 20385 you also need to install a module on 4 missile defense cells in front of the add-on. There is a place there. This is vital for the ship. The constructive omission needs to be corrected.
            And you know how to write articles and even letters in small handwriting. They know you there. Maybe they will really stir things up at headquarters.
  53. -2
    24 June 2022 00: 31
    Quote: Vladgar
    Karakurt will never make an anti-submarine carrier. He has 6 engines in the MKO, that's 336 cylinders and they all rattle. In addition, its exhaust gases are vented into the water,

    Problem 20380 is that this is an “adult” ship and for construction it requires a sea slipway, which in the Russian Federation can be counted on one hand. At the same time, you can build no more than 2-3 units for the entire country. These boats can be built on internal ropes in dozens.
    Inserting the central section into the karakurt hull will increase the displacement to 1100-1200 tons, this will be enough, replace diesel engines with turbogenerators and electric motors, install 2 starting calibers. The “superkarakurt” model was already demonstrated at the exhibition a year or two ago.
    You can also consider the option of a URO corvette with the caliber replaced by a “redoubt” with frigate ammunition. It will also have search equipment, which means it will be useful in anti-submarine patrol, paired with a regular corvette.
    1. +2
      25 June 2022 04: 00
      What problem for 20380 are you talking about? What kind of sea slips? What are 2-3 ships for all shipyards? These problems are your own invention. There is none of them. At the moment, only 4 corvettes are being built at the shipbuilding plant in Komsomolsk. The fifth will be laid on July 1. There are also 4 “Karakurt” buildings being built there, where the series ends. The slipways are cleared. Next year the sixth corvette will be laid down there. And this is only at one plant, located by the way on a river 1000 km away. from the mouth. There are also factories in St. Petersburg, NE, in Kaliningrad, Yantar, in Kerch, Zaliv, and the same Zelenodolsk, which built Cheetahs, in dimensions close to a corvette. He brought two to the Caspian Sea and four to the Black Sea for Vietnam. So there is no problem with this.
      It is impossible to insert a section into the central part of Karakurt. There the drill line changes along the frames. No two sections are the same. The body contours do not allow it. Another ship was demonstrated at the exhibition, outwardly similar to the Karakurt, and it was called super. What you offer deserves attention. Here every forum member can offer something of his own. But for some reason no one wants to understand that designing and building a new ship is very expensive and time-consuming. But we don’t have time, and we don’t have much money. And here there is a ready-made anti-submarine weapon, it just needs to be modified a little by installing 4 anti-submarine missiles. This is much easier, faster and cheaper to do. Moreover, 7 such ships are already running across the seas. And the construction of the rest of the series is included in the State Defense Order until 2028. We agree that the option of modifying the 20380 corvettes is preferable in conditions of lack of time. And the proposed MPC options without a helicopter are not entirely complete. An anti-submarine fighter without a helicopter is like a hare without one leg.
  54. The comment was deleted.
  55. -3
    24 June 2022 14: 36
    10 corvettes, 4 frozen on the stocks as monuments, together with the monument of project 20386

    these articles are written for VO - those who not related to the state defense order
    and those who are connected say something completely different, and do not apply to VO - state secret
  56. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      27 June 2022 13: 42
      No, to put it mildly, I won’t be welcome there.
      And I want to make sure everything is fine here.
      Why don't you like this?
  57. 0
    25 June 2022 15: 32
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Therefore, they wrote an article, reasoned smartly and forgot ...


    Not this time.

    And this one too.
  58. 0
    25 June 2022 16: 07
    Quote: Vladgar
    What problem for 20380 are you talking about? What kind of sea slips? What are 2-3 ships for all shipyards? These problems are your own invention. There is none of them. At the moment, only 4 corvettes are being built at the shipbuilding plant in Komsomolsk. The fifth will be laid on July 1. There are also 4 “Karakurt” buildings being built there, where the series ends. The slipways are cleared. Next year the sixth corvette will be laid down there. And this is only at one plant, located by the way on a river 1000 km away. from the mouth. There are also factories in St. Petersburg, NE, in Kaliningrad, Yantar, in Kerch, Zaliv, and the same Zelenodolsk, which built Cheetahs, in dimensions close to a corvette. He brought two to the Caspian Sea and four to the Black Sea for Vietnam. So there is no problem with this.
    It is impossible to insert a section into the central part of Karakurt. There the drill line changes along the frames. No two sections are the same. The body contours do not allow it. Another ship was demonstrated at the exhibition, outwardly similar to the Karakurt, and it was called super. What you offer deserves attention. Here every forum member can offer something of his own. But for some reason no one wants to understand that designing and building a new ship is very expensive and time-consuming. But we don’t have time, and we don’t have much money. And here there is a ready-made anti-submarine weapon, it just needs to be modified a little by installing 4 anti-submarine missiles. This is much easier, faster and cheaper to do. Moreover, 7 such ships are already running across the seas. And the construction of the rest of the series is included in the State Defense Order until 2028. We agree that the option of modifying the 20380 corvettes is preferable in conditions of lack of time. And the proposed MPC options without a helicopter are not entirely complete. An anti-submarine fighter without a helicopter is like a hare without one leg.

    If so, then there is no point in organizing another project for another corvette. We need to take project 20385 and finish it. Install a duralumin superstructure instead of a composite, remove the “golden tower”, add gas and bugas with the package, decide on a new engine and again 2*4 onyx will not spoil the mess, they don’t weigh much, but can be very useful. IMHO the ship will have to grow in length; it needs a displacement reserve for a new propulsion system and a heavy metal superstructure.
    If the engines and gearboxes are such a mess, then you need to look for an alternative domestic option. Apart from a bunch of electric motors and turbogenerators, nothing comes to mind. The KTU is too heavy; an actual new ship needs to be built around it.
    The advantages are that the ship can be faster than the original design and will be able to sail at 30-32 knots, like its Japanese counterparts. A helicopter hangar is a useful thing, but we don’t have any PLO helicopters there and don’t even have a prototype.
    Well, to paraphrase Cato the Elder. I believe that the URO corvette should also be mass-produced; this is the only mass response to the aviation threat.
    1. 0
      28 June 2022 10: 18
      20380 if increased, it will reach 4500 tons. With its tons, it no longer fits into the classification of a corvette.
      It would be easier (cheaper and better) to lay down 22350 frigates en masse. Firstly, they are larger and there is a lot of space there. Secondly, this is the only surface carrier of Zircon according to data on the network.
      Thirdly, the BC is stupidly larger, the speed is better and seaworthiness, and for our northern seas this is important.
      Well, you can accommodate more helicopters if desired.

      Therefore, there is no need to make a bad 20380 out of 22350.
      It is necessary to make 20380 more widespread - yes, by removing the barrier and redoubt, put Thor or plurs into the launch redoubts (but I don’t think it will fit in size), instead of Zak - a couple of armored towers without additional ammunition below deck.
      Place the package on a light carriage, and make more launchers, 6 per side, since it is non-rechargeable.
      As a result, the ship will be CHEAPER, simpler, faster, and lighter.
      If you wish, you can even put in a second helicopter or boats with gas, you can even use unmanned ones
  59. +1
    25 June 2022 18: 24
    Dear clou, I am precisely against creating a variety of corvettes. I propose to install 20380 PLURs on existing corvettes 4 and that’s it. A good anti-submarine is ready. This is not a new project. They all have to modernize with the installation of a tower.
    A ship needs a hangar. You can still use the old helicopter while work is underway on the Lamprey, Someday it will appear. In addition, the ship has a UAV.
    On project 20385, I think that it is necessary to install one more module before the add-on for 4 missile defense cells. This is also technically possible. There will be an air defense corvette. There is no point in adding more power to it, otherwise it will turn into another frigate. Like an anti-submarine fighter, he is also good.
  60. 0
    27 June 2022 08: 05
    Damn, that's it! Everything was GOOD - they stole money and drew beautiful cartoons on TV. The whole world was afraid (well, except for Bender), the Second Army of the World, the Severe Stronghold and all this Poseidon Armata...
    What idiot thought of TRYING IT IN PRACTICE?!

    "How to crap everything at once" - manual

    And now seriously: the Second Peace Army is very expensive, the Russian Federation does not have that much money
  61. +1
    27 June 2022 14: 22
    hmm... a whole article for the sake of two phrases and an attempt to pull in Klimov's previous article about water cannons... i.e. you need to spend 2 years on the project, and then another couple of years on construction in order to get a ship with very truncated parameters in 5-6 years instead of solving the problem of localizing the missing components of Kolomna diesel engines, which are not localized because money is needed for this and a couple of years at most to expand production... it’s better to ditch the Kolomna plant in favor of Zvezda, around which they’ve been jumping around for 10 years and trying to give birth to old engines... so that then by 2030 they’ll start crying that Zvezda has a UG engine and we need something more modern.
    1. +1
      27 June 2022 21: 25
      So good boots, you must take (c)
      1. 0
        28 June 2022 10: 24
        But it's actually a good idea...
        What if we remove the barrier and redoubt from 20380? Well, if they really don’t work.
        Put 2 shell-m towers with missiles, without ammunition under them, instead of the AK-630m,
        Supplement the package book and make it easier.
        If it fits, put in 2 helicopters or boats - drones with sonar.
        We get a cheap corvette that has already been mastered by industry and can be built at least 12 at a time
        1. 0
          28 June 2022 12: 16
          https://topwar.ru/178644-gremjaschij-i-drugie-poluchit-li-nash-flot-jeffektivnye-korabli-blizhnej-zony.html

          Oh yeah. What I was talking about
        2. +1
          28 June 2022 13: 37
          There will be no diesels soon, as it is written in the article
        3. 0
          30 June 2022 11: 39
          Dear Deliv13, the idea is really not bad. There is no need to throw away the Redoubt. Only the Furke-2 radar works unsatisfactorily, which can either be improved or replaced with a Positive one, but for some reason it was decided to replace the entire radar with a crude and very expensive tower. This is what needs to be abandoned. The Redoubt launcher will contain 32 9M100 missiles ready for launch. These are the same TOP missiles. Range 15 km and altitude 8 km. You can supply 2 medium 9M96 missiles with a range of 50 km and 24 9M100. Air defense for an anti-submarine officer is not bad.
          Two Pantsirs will not fit in place of an AK-630. There is not enough space. Frigates of the Gorshkov type could barely accommodate Broadswords, and even then without missiles. Moreover, neither “Broadswords” nor “Shell” will fit on a corvette.
          Here is the PTZ complex, Package-NK, you can put 6 pipes on each side, if necessary.
          The second helicopter will not fit on the corvette. Only one is included in the hangar for grinding. There is a UAV.
          An unmanned boat (BEC) with a GAS is not needed. Firstly, there is nowhere to keep it, and secondly, the corvette has its own standard three good sonar systems.
          As a result, on the Project 20380 corvette you only need to replace 4 missile defense cells with 4 anti-submarine missile missile cells with equipment and replace the “Furke” station with the “Positive” station. Here's a good small anti-submarine ship for you. This is a worthy replacement for the outgoing MPC “Albatross.” It is larger in size and that’s good. It will be better for him to stand on the wave and use weapons, and will also continue to go to sea. Everything on it has already been worked out by industry, dozens of connections between factories have been established, technologies have been developed, all complexes and units have been tested and shot. In today's conditions, this is the best option for a relatively inexpensive and at the same time mass-produced anti-submarine corvette from what is offered here.
          The work on retrofitting the corvette is not very ambitious, not lengthy and not financially intensive. However, the latter may be its disadvantage.
          1. 0
            5 August 2022 04: 29
            they could barely accommodate the Broadswords, and even then without missiles.

            That’s what was planned at Gorshkov - “pure” ZAKs with a rate of fire of 10000 rounds/min and their own secondary weapons.
            There are close-range missiles - 9m100, 4 in one UVP.
  62. The comment was deleted.
    1. +6
      28 June 2022 13: 40
      How about challenging? By the way, the Admiralty was already running away from the article - they reported there that everything was fine, and then they were hinted about empty buildings.
      There is already an effect.

      why is he not yet in the General Staff and not classified?


      The war showed what the General Staff is worth, completely. They can cut money on CIPF blocks into each drone, which is why their production drops significantly, but they can’t plan wars, and we just saw it.
      1. 0
        30 June 2022 12: 44
        Purely theoretically, the Kolomna plant can produce Zvezda diesel engines upon transfer of all documentation or purchase the line and production from China?
  63. The comment was deleted.
  64. 0
    28 June 2022 18: 09
    Quote: Vladgar
    Dear clou, I am precisely against creating a variety of corvettes. .

    Me too. Let them quickly choose a donor from the available corps
  65. -1
    1 July 2022 17: 50
    Again the sailors with their dreams about the fleet... Especially Timokhin. Well, at least he doesn’t propose to build an aircraft carrier - that’s already progress.
    But in general, there is a much simpler solution - to write off all these "rpksn" and finally get rid of the meaningless hemorrhoids with their eternal "cover". A lot of money is wasted, but in the real situation this entire fleet is nothing but embarrassment. Redistribute ICBMs in favor of the land component - pgrk and silos. And the sailors will be more useful in the infantry in the Donbass than on their ships.
  66. -1
    1 July 2022 18: 00
    by text:
    - diesel engines of the M500 series were originally designed as aviation engines, have a small volume and a short service life. that at this rate of production threatens disaster - the ships will be built and then. in addition, due to insufficient power, they are only suitable for small ships (although for the Russian fleet this may be for the better)
    - reducing the power of the D49 diesel engine by 1.5 times, as described in the article, does not look like a disaster - with such a reduction, the maximum speed drops by 15 percent. It will be 25 knots instead of 30 - the loss is small for the corvette
    - purely gas turbine ships have been used and produced for a long time, both here and in the USA - just remember the BOD 1155 and the Arley Burke. Such a power plant does not incur any super expenses.
    - 30-40 anti-submarine ships for three fleets, two of which are the Baltic and the Black Sea - this is something. Timokhin in all his glory. apparently for the previously described hunt for American SSBNs in the Mediterranean Sea and blockade of Gibraltar, yeah
  67. 0
    2 July 2022 15: 44
    You said that we need four brigades for the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet and one brigade for the Black Sea Fleet. BF - optional. How many such ships should there be in a brigade? Honestly, I looked on the internet - there are only general definitions, and that before the revolution there were 4 ships in a ship brigade. How much is it now?
  68. 0
    27 July 2022 21: 11
    What the hell is competence?!..
    Okay, I'm a loser.
    There was a production manager and chief engineer of the winery. Current management...
    We will go so far in shipbuilding.
    So far away that we can’t see the edges. The production is commanded by people who have no relation/understanding to the industry at all...
    This is the end. request
    I didn't tell you anything.
  69. 0
    3 August 2022 23: 42
    The multi-purpose ship will perform all tasks with a C-minus. It’s one thing when the crew is dedicated to anti-submarine warfare; it’s another thing when the missile boats are on board. We need a fast light striker on which, by the way, as an option, we can install anti-submarine torpedoes if it is attached to an MPK (a modern analogue of Project 1241 with Caliber), a slower and more powerful one (analogous to 1234.1 but with Zircon) and a full-fledged MPK with a helicopter (depending on the task at hand, the helicopter may be interchangeable: anti-submarine/attack. But all three types, albeit in the same hull but for different tasks, must have powerful air defense. Moreover, the AK-176 on the forecastle and the AK-630 on the waist (MPK) or quarterdeck are simply musf have. And Given the versatility of using the 630, the ammunition load clearly requires at least 4000 rounds.
  70. 0
    5 August 2022 04: 26
    add one 30-mm AK-630M artillery mount to the ship for defense of the aft sector.

    IMHO, the AK-630M2, or even the Broadsword, would be better (it has its own OLS on the same platform as anti-aircraft guns).
    And both have a rate of fire of 10000 rounds/min, which significantly increases the chances of defeating anti-ship missiles.

  71. 0
    7 August 2022 05: 05
    Air defense from Pantsir-M, with the problems of the firing radar and 76-mm cannon solved, is more than worthy for a small ship (but it is necessary to change the radar range!). The ship will not have any bottlenecks that would prevent its construction - regardless of the severity of the sanctions.

    And many such ships can be built. Five years – ten corvettes. Ten years – twenty corvettes. Well, or up to 160 cruise missiles in a total salvo.

    Moreover, such ships may well operate in the far sea zone, namely in the Mediterranean Sea, creating unbearable conditions for Western submarines and being based in Tartus.

    Aviation will rise and the ship with Pantsir-M will be sunk or disabled... easily. This air defense system can attack strictly in one direction, in which direction it is turned; the missile must be guided until it hits the target. A couple of NSMs (from different sides, for 100% success) and that’s it..
    So we need a modernized “Dagger” (Tor-FM) at a minimum.
    But if it shoots, it will shoot.
    The author also suggests sending it to the DMZ belay Who will issue a command center far from their shores and aviation? And if the “unthinkable” happens and the sea state is 6-8 points, how to use missile weapons?
    In addition to the Kinzhal, a ship for the DMZ must have at least a Shtil-1 (a naval Buk with a UVP) and a displacement of about 4000 tons. Otherwise, for its successful use there are too many additional “ifs”: if the sea is calm, if there are no enemy aircraft in the air, etc.
    Your option is to equip the DMZ frigate with water cannons request
    The second point: the airbase and naval bases in Syria are under big question and depend on the decisions of “dear friend” Erdogan.
  72. 0
    11 August 2022 11: 25
    it is necessary that on newly designed small warships, instead of two- and three-shaft propulsion systems with propellers, multi-shaft water-jet engines should be used

    Author, why not quickly develop and equip ships with power plants based on the principle of full electric propulsion (FEP)?
    Diesel engines turn generators, which feed traction motors. There are some diesel engines, and electric motors are also produced in the Russian Federation.
    This will also work well with your proposed use of multiple water jets in the entire stern (each with its own electric drive).
  73. 0
    12 August 2022 18: 04
    Quote: 3danimal
    It would be nice to have 6-10 of these ..

    But here again, if we make such expensive ships, won’t we go to the utopia of Gorshkov’s fleet, at the last stage of his era. It is useless to resist the NATO + US fleet; we will not be able to match both in terms of quantity and quality. Now the task is to protect our shores so that the boats do not come up for a disarming strike on us. As Timokhin (Klimov) suggests, and at an accelerated pace, provide anti-aircraft defense and cover for boats on the Severny and Tikhoi. There are 20 Karakurts each with the SJSC, minesweepers, 10 Corvettes with helicopters, and 5 frigates for air defense. The rest of the old monsters should be written off or mothballed, the freed-up money should be invested in satellite reconnaissance and fleet aviation for two fleets each: three AWACS, 6 RT, 20 PLO, a long-range missile regiment, an interceptor regiment, tankers. Here the quantity is even somewhat overestimated, in case of rotation or repair. As the author suggested, RTOs, Corvettes, anti-aircraft defense aircraft search for boats, their long-range air defense is provided by frigates, AWACS, RT aircraft, satellites carry out reconnaissance, target designation for missiles on ships and long-range missile carriers. Interceptors to escort friendly and intercept enemy aircraft. Such a fleet will be able to carry out anti-submarine warfare on its shores, yes. Cover the strategists too. Missile carriers can chew up the ships of some country that has decided to act alone without an alliance.
  74. 0
    13 August 2022 18: 50
    The price of one SSBN is 2 billion dollars! Since 2014, about 10 have joined the Navy. How did this type of weapon help during the SVO? And the Black Sea Fleet was half sunk by aviation; the Germans had no fleet other than snailboats! I’m generally silent about BF. But as soon as the ground forces of the Red Army began to advance, both fleets were able to begin working as intended! With the exception of the Northern Fleet, then the youngest and weakest flotilla bore the brunt of the Second World War! The question is, maybe at least 2 billion. $ would be spent on UAVs, or KAZ at least for tanks, eh?! And for the remaining money, 10-12 mobile systems with similar missiles?
  75. 0
    25 August 2022 08: 11
    In the West, politicians stay away from admirals and appoint all sorts of gynecologists as defense ministers, and if someone like this author comes across, then a hundred destroyers and others will be built that are absolutely bad. Temm is more embittered for being fired from a bread-making job to a bench near the house to communicate with the bukhariki.
    In short, we select a gas turbine engine of the required power but as low-speed as possible with a long service life, with the possibility of accurately landing it for emergency repair and replacement.
  76. The comment was deleted.
  77. 0
    6 September 2022 10: 45
    Liar of the first rank - this is the title of A. Timokhin.
  78. 0
    6 September 2022 17: 03
    I haven’t read the article (because I don’t even want to get dirty with another muddy incoherent stream of consciousness), but let me guess - Timokhin is dreaming about boats again. It’s already clear from the name. while it is clear to all reasonable people that the fleet in this, and in any other possible war, is the most useless type of armed forces. and the best “ship” for sanctions is to give naval money to the infantry.
  79. 0
    1 November 2022 15: 24
    With all that being said, the article is sound and the idea is good.
    One phrase
    We need a mobilization project that can meet the urgent needs of the Navy, which can be built right now. What should it be?

    First. Since there are many tasks and they are different, the ship must be multi-purpose.

    comes out as a big mistake. After all, just an attempt to make a ship multi-purpose, while maintaining such “mobilization” parameters as low cost and speed of construction/repair/operation, will lead to the ship either becoming expensive and unable to become “mobilization”, or becoming a generalist, unable to adequately perform ANY task.

    Instead, we need a simple mass series of simple and inexpensive ships, the design of which is adapted for the installation of equipment for 1-2 tasks, but with the ability to assemble ships of ALL classes from such a ship. This includes rebuilding ships from one class to another by simply changing equipment at a repair plant within a short period of time (not modularity, but something close).

    Relatively speaking, a single universal hull, superstructure, power plant and power lines (designed for a wide range of loads and equipment), but we install weapons and their control systems based on what type of ships are currently in short supply.

    Are PLO ships tender?
    We install torpedo tubes, and add a towed one to the standard Boolean sonar. We install additional equipment for refueling a helicopter without landing. We set up an artillery mount and basic air defense just in case.

    Need strike ships?
    We remove the towed sonar, leaving only the Boolean one. We reduce the number of torpedoes (or remove them altogether, leaving only anti-torpedoes). But we are installing more universal vertical launchers with attack winged and anti-ship missiles. And we replace the artillery installation with additional missile cells.

    Need air defense ships?
    We are returning a universal artillery mount (if, of course, it is capable of hitting planes or missiles). Installs a layered air defense/missile defense system (including a pair of heavy long-range air defense/missile defense systems). Since the ship is massive and small, there is no need to install many long-range missiles.

    At the same time, when the situation at sea changes, and the ratio of needs in the fleet changes accordingly, ships can gradually, at repair shipyards, be quickly re-equipped for new functions.
    For example, after a series of successful operations to intercept missiles in some Syria, the enemy stopped trying to attack Syrian targets with his missiles. But he switched to tracking our ships with his submarines and ally, and also switched to the tactic of dropping DRGs into Syrian territory using mini-submarines and boats. The fleet deploys anti-aircraft defense ships to the location of the operation, and returns some of the air defense ships to itself in order to re-equip them for a new function - anti-aircraft defense. And a month (relatively averaged figure) after arriving at the port, our “mobilization” ships are already sailing back to the site of the operation, but no longer being air defense ships, but anti-aircraft defense ships.

    In general, you can think of a fleet scheme consisting of two types of ships - cheap, light, massive escort ships (guard ships, corvettes, frigates and destroyers) and heavy multifunctional ships of the main strike belt (heavy destroyers, TAKR/Aircraft carrier cruisers). Where the first category consists of single, maximally unified platforms with weapons and equipment adapted for individual functions (air defense, missile defense, anti-aircraft defense, attack, etc.) but with the ability to quickly and easily convert ships of one class to another. At the same time, these ships, due to their uniform hulls, power plants, etc., will be cheap and widespread. Only the equipment will change.
    But the ships of the main strike belt will already be fully multifunctional, heavy and low-volume (and therefore expensive), but the money for them will appear precisely because the first category of ships is cheap for us.