far zero. Comparison of cartridges of caliber 7,62x54R and .308 Winchester

78

From left to right, cartridges in calibers 7.62x39, .308win and 7.62x54R

В продолжение articles about .338 LM you need to touch on a topic that may have been studied for a long time, but is still relevant. We are talking about comparing the 7,62x54R caliber we have in service, used in sniper rifles, and the foreign 0.308 Winchester caliber, which is in service with NATO and the United States.

It so happened that although they were created at very different times, the goals for which they are used are similar. Direct comparison of these two cartridges is a little incorrect, since our 7,62x54R is still closer to the .30-06 caliber, and they were also created at about the same time. However, we will compare with .308 win, since both are used by army snipers in our time, and try to understand their effectiveness.

The 7,62x54R cartridge was adopted back in 1891 as a result of the re-equipment of the tsarist army, and subsequently became the reason for the appearance of first the Tula and then the Lugansk cartridge factories. That is, the cartridge has been in service for 131 years. Different types of primers were used, the bottom of the cartridge case was changed, the bullet was refined and modified, the rifles from which they were fired were improved, and as a result, the cartridge is involved in battles to this day.



What follows from this? What a great ammo. He has a zest - a welt (rim). A stumbling block for many experts, both couch and not so much. We will not discuss the need for this feature, we will take as a basis the fact: tsarist Russia could not produce a rimless cartridge, and the Soviet Union and the Russian Federation did not consider it appropriate to change something.

As for .308win, you first need to understand where it came from. His grandfather, in .30-06, was adopted by the US Army in 1906. After going through World War II, it was replaced by the 7,62x51 mm cartridge, which had identical characteristics, but, thanks to the achievements of the powder industry, was shorter.

Around the same time, Oliver Winchester recognized the commercial potential of the 7,62x51mm cartridge and introduced a very similar cartridge in .308 Winchester for the civilian hunting and shooting market. As a result, the .308win cartridge with thicker case walls and the ability to hold more than 7,62x51 mm pressure turned out to be almost completely comparable in ballistic characteristics with 7,62x54R, and nowadays it is one of the most common rifle cartridges in the world.


From left to right: cartridges in calibers .308 win, 7,62x54R, 30-06 Springfield

A little more than half a century after the creation of the 7,62x54R, the .308win cartridge caught up with it in ballistic performance. The devil, as you know, is in the details, so let's delve into the numbers, without this in any way.

Let's take the data for lead bullets in a full metal jacket weighing 11,7 grams.

When shooting 7,62x54R from a rifle with a barrel length of 730 mm:

speed - 786 m / s,
energy at the muzzle - 3 614 J,
ballistic coefficient - 0,506.

When firing .308win from a 600mm rifle:

speed - 735 m / s,
energy at the muzzle -3 160 J,
ballistic coefficient - 0,498.

You need to understand that these are indicators for civilian ammunition options, but we take them as an average for the hospital for a general understanding of the state of affairs. Military ammunition will vary greatly due to the specifics of the targets, and it will be extremely difficult to compare them according to the selected indicators.

far zero. Comparison of cartridges of caliber 7,62x54R and .308 Winchester

Data taken from an open source from the website of the Czech manufacturer Sellier & Bellot

From the data in the picture, it appears that the 7,62x54R at 400m has more speed and power, requires fewer corrections than its competitor, and will also become subsonic later than the .308 win. It should be clarified that the bullet, when moving from supersonic speed to sonic speed, becomes unstable and can fly, for example, sideways.

So why then is the 7,62x54R infamous for being an "obsolete" cartridge, while the .308 win never goes out of style and is preferred by both military and civilian shooters?

There are several reasons for this.

Firstly, due to the fact that the cartridge has become very widespread around the world, it has a huge number of manufacturers. In a competitive environment, these manufacturers are trying to produce a unique product that will interest the user. For .308 win, you can find not only conventional semi-jacketed bullets consisting of lead coated with copper or brass, but also bullets with a non-separable jacket, as well as all-copper or with an "armor-piercing" component. Different weights and types of projectiles, different speeds, a variety of powders and primers - all this allows you to choose the perfect gross cartridge for yourself, and in case of emergency, buy components and assemble from scratch.


Variety of bullets and weights for .308 win. Left to right: 110 Hornady V-Max, 135 Sierra MatchKing, 155 Hornady ELD-M, 165 Hornady BTSP, 168 Sierra TMK, 175 Sierra MatchKing, 175 Sierra TMK, 180 Speer RN, 190 Sierra MatchKing, 200 Moyers Silhouette, 200 Hornady ELD -X

Secondly, the 7,62x54R welt cartridge is not as demanding on machine accuracy as its counterpart. In the 30s of the last century, the USSR could not afford to completely transfer the production of cartridges that were in service to new rails. It was very expensive, it required the replacement of production lines, the running-in of technology, the creation of the necessary commodity volumes from scratch and with a margin, as well as re-equipment.

But that was then, and now our factories in Tula, Barnaul, Novosibirsk and Izhevsk quietly produce .308 win cartridges for the needs of the civilian market. The production has been debugged for a long time, the technical and material part necessary for it is available, the accuracy of the machines allows.


Armor-piercing incendiary cartridge .308win

So what has changed for 7,62x54R since the launch of .308 win at our factories?

In fact, not so much. Among civilian shooters, it is in demand more for patriotic or economic reasons. For military needs, the cartridge underwent changes in 1999, receiving an armor-piercing bullet 7N26, as well as a sniper armor-piercing bullet 7N14.

It is necessary to separately indicate that the sniper bullet turned out to be extremely successful. Consisting of a bimetallic shell and a combined U12A steel core in the head part and a lead core, it pierces at least 80% of 2 mm thick 5P armor plate at a distance of 300 meters at a right angle. Steel 2P was used as bulletproof protection tank T-34, that is, we are not even talking about a wearable element of individual armor protection.


A 7N14 bullet hit the plate of the Shturm-VV body armor of armor protection class 5. Source: guns.ru

Nevertheless, the main reason for the 7,62x54R's notoriety was and remains the instability of its ballistic performance from batch to batch. It is not so important whether the cartridge is military or civilian - the spread in speeds and the overall quality of the cartridge has a very negative effect on the repeatability of the shot. The unpretentiousness in production, which played into the hands of Tsarist Russia, has now become the reason why preference is given to foreign calibers and ammunition.

For your rich history cartridge 7,62x54R has undergone many improvements and several "restylings". Despite the many geopolitical changes that have affected our country over the past 130 years, progress does not stand still, and we already see Caliber and X-95 in action, which until recently were only promising developments.

Considering that it is much more difficult to produce missiles than cartridges for small arms, I would like to believe that in the future, the 7,62x54R cartridge will not only be updated with modern knowledge and technology, but also produced to strict standards to maintain quality.
78 comments
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  1. +19
    25 May 2022 04: 06
    Key words - production to strict standards to maintain quality.
  2. +8
    25 May 2022 04: 07
    "barrel length 730 mm"
    author, noun long does not exist, because it exists length.
    1. +4
      25 May 2022 21: 27
      Modern education, blood from the eyes)))
  3. +10
    25 May 2022 04: 37
    "let's take the fact as a basis: tsarist Russia could not produce a rimless cartridge"

    In general, it’s not a fact that I couldn’t, that’s never
    I didn’t consider it necessary, there were reasons for that, but there were also discussions
    1. +4
      25 May 2022 04: 57
      cartridge has been in service for 131 years.
      It is something ! good
    2. +9
      25 May 2022 09: 11
      rifles under a welt cartridge tolerate pollution much better, and are better suited to the realities of a real battle, this served as the decision to adopt a welt cartridge into service in Russia, and then the revolution, the civil war, there was no time for expensive rearmament, and the cartridge turned out to be not bad, culture failed production.
      1. +3
        25 May 2022 15: 50
        In adopting it for service and production, it was precisely the cost of production and the purchase of the necessary equipment that played .. And not pollution ..
  4. +24
    25 May 2022 04: 57
    I chose 7.62x54R by the fact that I bought Svetka. I don’t even know if it can be converted to something else, and I wasn’t interested. In my opinion, doing this with historical weapons is vandalism. So I buy boxes of TulAmmo and have no problems. Especially for shooting with an open sight at a direct shot distance, all these differences do not matter. You can’t put optics on Svetka (the usual, not a sniper version) without machine processing, but I don’t want to disfigure it and I won’t.
    1. +9
      25 May 2022 06: 36
      I don't want to spoil it, and I won't.


      Well, that's right, a smart approach! good
    2. +16
      25 May 2022 06: 59
      When I took a rifled Vepr, I chose the 7.62x54R option solely for reasons of cartridge availability. A hell of a sniper won't work out of me, and there is no need, but our cartridge is always available and under any circumstances. Let it be shitty - but it will be, and cheap. And then I have friends who got barrels for exotic calibers. Now heels bite, looking at the price tags of imported cartridges .. If they can be obtained at all ..

      And the cartridges - I personally have a crush on Novosib .. It seems nothing, although - as always, frankly shitty parties come across from time to time .. Vigorously - well, is it really such a problem in the 21st century, pour the same weight and evenly land a bullet ??
    3. 0
      25 May 2022 07: 01
      Quote: Nagan
      bought Svetka

      Photo in the studio! wink
      1. +10
        25 May 2022 07: 07
        With all my reverence for historical weapons - Svetka is a hefty capricious oar. A rifle, of course, is nothing, but for hunting it’s still a present. Personally, it didn't work for me at all. And the butt is short, and the balance is not good, and in general - not convenient, especially offhand. There is an old convenience test - you mark a point, turn away, close your eyes, turn around and try to catch the chosen point. Then you look. So with Svetka - I never managed to catch at least approximately. Not under me trunk, iron. However, everyone's size is different...

        Therefore, the SCS satisfied its craving for collecting .. That's certainly a trouble-free machine! In principle, I did not put any newfangled body kits on it - I like it in its original form. Only put optics because of shitty vision.
        1. +9
          25 May 2022 07: 24
          Quote: paul3390
          Svetka is a hefty capricious oar.
          A rifle, of course, is nothing, but for hunting it’s still a present.

          “Work is the blacksmith of sniper luck,” Nikolai Ilyin liked to say.
          On his combat account 494 enemy soldiers and officers.
          Some of them - with the help of Svetka.

        2. +7
          25 May 2022 07: 57
          Quote: paul3390
          for hunting - that's another gift.

          And I’m not for hunting, so, indulge in a shooting range. Well, in case someone like a Black Lives Matter thread shows up on our street. Although our town is quiet and mostly white, and non-whites are mostly Asians, they certainly have their own "cultural inconsistencies", but in terms of violence and criminality, they are not expected to have any special problems, unlike the previously mentioned ones. Nagan is certainly a thing, but reloading is painfully dreary, but you never know you need more than 7 rounds. Svetka with clips is recharged for one or two, and the cartridge is more serious.
          1. 0
            25 May 2022 09: 53
            What else is in the arsenal?
            1. +2
              25 May 2022 17: 46
              While all. But I'm thinking about buying more Mosin. Svetka is definitely a woman. A beauty, but with a very capricious and bitchy character. It's nice to look and hold hands, and even use it for its intended purpose, all the more so. But take care of her. And if you do not care, then she may refuse.
              Seriously, when I took it apart and assembled it for the first time (and without the booklet, I wouldn’t have figured out the “instruction on shooting”, even though I’m a mechanical engineer by education), I realized how brilliant Kalashnikov is.
              And if you don’t clean and lubricate every time after shooting, it won’t be good. So I'll probably buy Mosin for shooting, and Svetka will be more for the collection, well, just in case.
              1. +1
                25 May 2022 18: 42
                But what about Kalashnikov?)) SVD in the arsenal will also fit
                1. +1
                  25 May 2022 19: 59
                  Quote: Andrey VOV
                  But what about Kalashnikov?

                  The real one is not sold here, it is forbidden. Romanian, please, but castrated, only single, and a magazine for 10 rounds. In general, approximately like a castrated Rottweiler, he is not fit for security service. Converting it into a normal one for those who attended labor lessons in a Soviet school is not a problem, all parts can be ordered with delivery, and stores at least a standard 30, at least 50 from the PKK, at least a locally produced double drum for more than a hundred rounds. But if they take one with such a person, then this is a deadline, especially if civilians are shot a couple of weeks before the trial, like yesterday. Do I need it?
                  Quote: Andrey VOV
                  svd in the arsenal will also fit

                  I have not seen a real Dragunov for sale. The Romanian one is very similar both in appearance and in terms of performance characteristics, although it is made on the basis of a PC, even stores are not interchangeable with SVD. And emotionally, there is no interest, not at all like the Soviet weapons that went through that war.
                  1. 0
                    25 May 2022 21: 38
                    It’s clear, well then, for friendship with the world, mlsinka needs a friend shpagin!))
                    1. 0
                      26 May 2022 01: 42
                      Alas and ah, by law it is forbidden for a private person to have an automatic weapon.
                  2. 0
                    26 May 2022 01: 43
                    can be ordered with delivery, and stores at least the standard 30, at least 50 from the PKK
                    And this is from what kind of PKK, sorry, "at least 50" ... ??! wink
                    1. +2
                      26 May 2022 02: 23
                      Quote: militarist63
                      And this is from what kind of PKK, sorry, "at least 50"

                      Sorry, there was a mistake. I meant 40.
                      1. 0
                        26 May 2022 22: 13
                        Quote: militarist63
                        And this is from what kind of PKK, sorry, "at least 50"

                        Sorry, there was a mistake. I meant 40.
                        It happens! wink
                      2. 0
                        10 July 2022 00: 45
                        in the RPK stores for 45 rounds, where did 40 come from?
                      3. 0
                        17 November 2022 10: 14
                        I can only assume that they are under-equipped to save the resource of the spring. There was such a belief, yes.
          2. 0
            25 May 2022 10: 35
            If you are talking about a revolver, a revolver is a very amateur thing. I'm not at all on hand, shafts of shafts
            1. +2
              25 May 2022 17: 48
              I had a chance to shoot from a lot of things, both Makarov and Colt 1911. Of all of them, the Nagant lies in the hand most conveniently. However, each hand has its own anatomy.
  5. +5
    25 May 2022 06: 32
    let's take as a basis the fact: tsarist Russia could not produce a rimless cartridge

    It could, but due to the then technologies of the Russian Empire, the welt cartridge was a third cheaper, which, given the required volumes, was considered a decisive factor.
    1. +3
      25 May 2022 06: 39
      Everything is as always, about the same considerations were when choosing a pistol cartridge in the thirties - price and quantity.
    2. 0
      14 July 2022 12: 41
      It's not about the cartridge. And in the chamber. With a welt, the sleeve is held on the rim. And with a groove on the conical surfaces of the sleeve and the chamber. Accordingly, the requirements for the accuracy of the geometry of the chamber are much higher. And this is provided by the tool. They did not even go to the USSR for extra costs. Hence the same high taper of the 43 cartridge case.
  6. +8
    25 May 2022 06: 54
    And again - the main problem of Russian weapons is frankly shitty cartridges. The problem is old, but it seems no one needs to solve it. Although it would seem - go for just one alligator yacht, it would be possible to modernize all cartridge and powder factories. This is some kind of shame - to make a decent cartridge they poured Belgian gunpowder and put an American bullet, as in the notorious Centaur! And this is in a country that claims to be a great military power .. But high-quality cartridges are an important component of state security. To hell with our highly efficient managers and owners .. Everything is in the classical liberal paradigm - you don’t need to produce anything of your own, but you need to buy everything in the blessed West. Ugh.
    1. +6
      25 May 2022 07: 06
      the main problem of Russian weapons is frankly shitty cartridges.
      - I do not agree, the main problem is people ....
      1. +4
        25 May 2022 08: 50
        Quote: faiver
        - I do not agree, the main problem is people ....

        It is clear that people. They are really different everywhere. Some can make Caliber and X-95, others can't make the same ammo. And for some reason, the Barnaul plant differs for the worse almost constantly. In any case, I judge by 7,62 * 39 because the SCS user himself
    2. +2
      25 May 2022 12: 34
      Right. For my Saiga .223 I tried all possible Russian cartridges. Just dirt. I've had great results with Mesko's Polish NATO cartridge.
      For my Mosin Nagant Sniper, I load the ammo myself and get good results.

      1. 0
        20 July 2022 09: 35
        I have been hammering myself for a long time, the results of accuracy are 2 times better than gross cartridges. By the way, also VV N140
  7. Two
    +1
    25 May 2022 07: 11
    Cartridge configuration is very important! But do not forget about the filling of the sleeve! The requirements for gunpowder are non-specific, with a large run-up. The requirements for the culling of gunpowder are taken from the "wants" of the leadership and the servile position of technologists. This is where the shitty and relatively normal BP batches come from.
    1. 0
      25 May 2022 07: 15
      In addition to the quality and accuracy of the weight of gunpowder, there is also the problem of landing a bullet .. In some batches, let's say BPZ - it is obviously not the same, but there were cases when it was possible to pull it out with your fingers, albeit with difficulty. What kind of accuracy can we talk about in such hands?
  8. +4
    25 May 2022 07: 14
    Nevertheless, the main reason for the notoriety of 7,62x54R was and remains the instability of its ballistic performance from batch to batch.


    For a long time I already watched a video with Barnaul residents, it seems. They complained that in order to issue cartridges for military acceptance, it was necessary to adjust the weight for each individual batch of gunpowder. That is, the parties are so different that this is important not for fanatics of sniper shooting for a mile +, but for army standards that are more than sparing at the present time.

    As for the rest, everything has long been known. A rimmed cartridge is worse than a rimless cartridge in terms of the complexity of the design of feeding from a tape into a machine gun. But for so many years we have dealt with this issue, PKM / Pecheneg are working quite acceptable in this part, all the more so for SVD.

    The development of rifle cartridges is now moving towards long bullets with good aerodynamics, increased pressure, and increased requirements for barrel quality. The cartridge case is of secondary importance. By the way, the mentioned .30-06 is quite produced for itself.
    1. +8
      25 May 2022 07: 45
      Quote: Negro
      has long been known. A rimmed cartridge is worse than a rimless cartridge in terms of the complexity of the design of feeding from a tape into a machine gun.

      What are you saying ?!
      On the contrary, due to the presence of a protruding welt, there is no need for a strict orientation of the shutter grips for pulling out of the tape. At the same time, the grippers can move forward a lot, which gives time to calm down and securely grip the displaced cartridges in the belt due to its damage. Plus the factor of dirt, which is easily squeezed out from under the welt and reliable locking of the barrel with a welt. Therefore, machine guns with this cartridge are known as the most reliable in combat.
      And this cartridge turned out to be more convenient for rapid-firing machine guns, again because of the simpler welt in the groove of the feed mechanism and a secure grip.
      1. +2
        25 May 2022 08: 06
        You are, of course, right. That is why countries that did not sit on the royal machine park gradually abandoned welt cartridges. Too good a cartridge, it's not fair to fight like that.
        1. +6
          25 May 2022 09: 09
          Quote: Negro
          countries that did not sit on the royal machine park gradually abandoned welt cartridges.

          The protruding welt is gone not because it's a bad thing, but because it only has advantages for belt feed. In magazine feed, the protruding welt is a major inconvenience and vulnerability where cartridges can change the order of the welts and wedged.
          1. -2
            25 May 2022 09: 21
            Quote: Genry
            because it only has advantages for belt feed. In magazine feed, the protruding welt is a major inconvenience and vulnerability where cartridges can change the order of the welts and wedged.

            OK, let's accept this position, I will not argue with you. In any case, we will come to the conclusion that the welt cartridge was forced out with the spread of automatic weapons.
            Quote: Genry
            For the very fact of the shot - the sleeve is of paramount importance.

            Of course, an unsuccessful cartridge case precludes the success of the cartridge. But in the case under discussion, the sleeve is more or less settled, so that only the ratio of 7,62 rushes with cartridges close in caliber and purpose is being discussed.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            17 November 2022 10: 19
            This is leveled in stores with a conveyor, but such stores, alas, are much more expensive.
      2. Zug
        0
        25 May 2022 17: 30
        In short, we are all fools. Some of us are smart, we still produce cartridges with a welt. Well, the British still ran with a welt in WWII, but they also drove off in the direction of "inconvenience and complexity" Well, we rivet the welt and do not blow in the mustache
      3. +1
        26 May 2022 02: 55
        Quote: Genry
        And this cartridge turned out to be more convenient for rapid-fire machine guns.
        Are you talking about ShKAS? So under it were special cartridges, with more accurate tolerances, and special primers, from the Kondo Mosin cartridge from the first zinc that came across, he wedged after a couple of shots. On the contrary, yes, this cartridge was suitable for all infantry weapons under the Mosin cartridge, but you won’t pour premium gasoline into Pobeda. In general, ShKAS brought more harm than good, in that the very presence of this machine gun with an exorbitant record rate of fire delayed the massive transition of aviation to larger calibers.
        Quote: Genry
        due to the presence of a protruding welt, there is no need for a strict orientation of the shutter grips for pulling out of the tape
        And due to the absence of it, you can not pull the cartridge out of the tape back, but feed it "for flashing".
      4. 0
        14 July 2022 12: 44
        DVK PC is even lighter. Due to the shorter receiver. Oddly enough, pulling the cartridge back and feeding it forward had no effect on reliability.
    2. +3
      25 May 2022 08: 28
      Quote: Negro
      The cartridge case is of secondary importance.

      Yes Yes??
      If it inflates or tears in the barrel and the welt breaks out of the reflector in the bolt, wedging in the barrel .... Or, due to poor retention of the bullet, warping or falling apart occurs. Problems installing the capsule. And the complexity of production, when you want to be simpler / cheaper and without turning, but you get a work of art.

      For the very fact of the shot - the sleeve is of paramount importance.
  9. +1
    25 May 2022 08: 19
    "...Given that it is much more difficult to produce missiles than cartridges for small arms, I would like to believe that in In the future, the 7,62x54R cartridge is waiting for not only a new update taking into account modern knowledge and technologies, but also production according to strict standards to maintain quality. "

    it is necessary to move away from the "rim" on the sleeve, leaving such cartridges only for civilian purposes.
    And so - the quality of gunpowder leaves much to be desired ... I judge by hunting
    and the rest of the components of the cartridge - as if - "made on the knee"
    1. +4
      25 May 2022 09: 14
      Quote: Dedok
      in the future, the 7,62x54R cartridge will not only be updated with modern knowledge and technology, but also manufactured to strict standards to maintain quality

      To change this cartridge is only to harm. This is the cheapest cartridge for mass use in the most reliable machine guns.

      Using it in magazine weapons is stupidity. In single-shot bolts - it's normal.
    2. +1
      25 May 2022 09: 42
      Quote: Dedok
      it is necessary to move away from the "rim" on the sleeve, leaving such cartridges only for civilian purposes.

      It may be correct, but it remains to solve the issue of unlimited reserves of this cartridge. Where to put all this and, most importantly, how much it will cost, and the question of disposing of weapons for this cartridge stored in warehouses is also added. Practice shows that no one is immune from different scenarios; it is not known whether this weapon will be needed or not (Ukraine uses long-outdated systems, it is not a fact that we will not get to that either).
  10. +2
    25 May 2022 08: 58

    Firstly, due to the fact that the cartridge has become very widespread around the world, it has a huge number of manufacturers. In a competitive environment, these manufacturers are trying to produce a unique product that will interest the user. For .308 win, you can find not only conventional semi-jacketed bullets consisting of lead coated with copper or brass, but also bullets with a non-separable jacket, as well as all-copper or with an "armor-piercing" component. Different weights and types of projectiles, different speeds, a variety of powders and primers - all this allows you to choose the perfect gross cartridge for yourself, and in case of emergency, buy components and assemble from scratch.

    What part of this diversity goes to the army?
    And the main part of the 7,62x54R cartridge is eaten by machine guns.
    And for civilian weapons, the requirements ... are somewhat different.
    1. +2
      25 May 2022 10: 00
      The protruding welt flange slightly, but increases the volume of the sleeve and makes extraction more reliable, and the outer flange provides more accurate positioning of the cartridge in the chamber (ceteris paribus), therefore, the cartridge case 7,62x54R in aggregate is no worse than any others, another thing is to constantly improve it quality and manufacturing precision
  11. 0
    25 May 2022 10: 34
    Quote: agond
    the outer flange provides more precise positioning of the cartridge in the chamber (ceteris paribus)

    You are wrong. More accurate positioning just gives a rimless cartridge, since the positioning of the cartridge occurs on the shoulders of the sleeve and the bullet is more accurately centered in relation to the barrel.
    1. +1
      25 May 2022 13: 23
      "You are wrong. More accurate positioning just gives a rimless cartridge, since the positioning of the cartridge occurs along the shoulders of the sleeve"
      I read somewhere, I don’t remember who, what chamber wear just a welt cartridge provides more accurate positioning of the bullet, which is why it was chosen for production in Russia
  12. +2
    25 May 2022 10: 39
    "Secondly, the 7,62x54R welt cartridge is not as demanding on machine accuracy as its counterpart."
    Something is some kind of nonsense - one cartridge requires precision machines and the other does not !! Rave!!!!

    okay, the 30s .. the years when the USSR built its industry .. of course, a very difficult time.
    but what is currently preventing the production of cartridges with stable quality ???
    there gunpowder is simply poured into the shells by jamshuts with their hands - plus or minus a pinch ??? Or how does casting on the street go straight into the ground in Afghanistan ???
  13. +3
    25 May 2022 11: 03
    When shooting 7,62x54R from a rifle with a barrel length of 730 mm:
    .....
    When firing .308win from a rifle with a barrel length of 600 mm

    Author, have you tried to compare 120 and 152 mm guns?
    I think the comparison is clear. And it is also obvious that a longer barrel, other things being equal, will give a greater initial speed.
    In terms of their ballistic characteristics, 308 and x54 are very close. In terms of accuracy, the 308 is STRUCTURALLY better due to positioning in the chamber on the shoulders. In terms of reliability in difficult conditions, it is better than the x54 due to the greater taper of the sleeve and welt. With a tape feed, the 54th is better, with a magazine feed, the 308th.
    In sports shooting, the 308 is out of competition. and the point is not even the best constructive accuracy, but the absence of “match” bullets for our .311 caliber. And the author did not even mention the difference in the diameters of the bullets in the article. Again, many have heard about the "minute" Tiger under the x54 cartridge, but no one has seen it. wink , but half a minute on the 416th Heckler is quite achievable.
    In general, the author, as in the article about 338, does not understand very well the essence of the issues raised in the article. IMHO, of course.
    PS
    our factories in Tula, Barnaul, Novosibirsk and Izhevsk quietly produce .308 win cartridges for the needs of the civilian market

    Can you tell me what kind of cartridge factory in Izhevsk?
    ZZY Author, the title "Far Zero" is related to the content of the article? And what is this zero, in your opinion? winked
    1. +2
      25 May 2022 12: 21
      Congratulations on your analysis. Irreproachable. hi
  14. +1
    25 May 2022 11: 39
    The distribution of the cartridge depends on who uses it. Let's put performance aside. The advantages of the 308 lie in the worldwide distribution of the cartridge, the variety of ammunition and, finally, the variety of weapons in which it is used. In Europe, apart from the old Mosin guns, SVT-40, dragoons or spears, there are few new guns chambered for 7,62x54R. I know Baikal keepplauf, Hammer Vepr, I haven’t seen it in Italy in this caliber, nothing else comes to mind.
    Indeed, I would be grateful if you could point me to new guns of this caliber.
    Also, the production of 7.62x54R in the West rests on a variety of calibers, nominally they are both 7.62mm, but the Russian caliber is larger. So if 308 bullets were used to assemble Russian ammunition, they would not fit into the original barrel.
  15. 0
    25 May 2022 12: 32
    Quote: Decimalegio

    Indeed, I would be grateful if you could point me to new guns of this caliber.

    VPO-111 Huntsman, microwave (Chukavin rifle).
    Thanks for the flattering review. fellow
    1. +2
      25 May 2022 14: 06
      I do a little reloading, so I will allow myself a few additions:
      1. In order to compare the ballistic characteristics of ammunition, it would be good to select not only similar bullets, for example, FMJBT 175 gr., but also the ranges of powder weights and brand of powder corresponding to them. And shooting to produce their trunks of the same length. In addition, for 308Win, more precisely 7,62x51, bullets from 147 gr. are more optimized for military use. up to 168 gr. and 175 gr (11,7 g) is already considered heavy, although Hornady makes a cartridge with the RN 220 gr bullet.
      2. The spread of speeds does not depend on the type of ammunition - this is the misfortune of Russian gunpowder manufacturers. I think the Russian-made 308win will also have problems with speed instability and thermal dependence. If you assemble 7,62x54R on Canadian Varget powder or whirl, then it will fly with a very high repeatability ...
      Although you can grind the case mouth, and even "polish" it, plant the bullet correctly, align the proroch like a navka, apply a match primer and a miracle will happen!)))) But is this necessary, for example, for driven hunting at a distance of up to 200 m? Or a conscript in the trenches?
      1. +1
        25 May 2022 23: 31
        Plus hi In his youth, he loved to shoot.
        We have problems with gunpowder, most likely problems in granulation, compaction density and instability of granule sizes. Hence the different bullet speeds.
        Still eternal problems with a jacketed bullet, the discrepancy between the center of mass and the calculated one. There are pores in the body of the bullet, especially in the nose. By grinding the nose with a file, you can make a sniper bullet, this is from practice bully
        And people believe in horror stories about expansive bullets for snipers. Although this is a reduction in the cost of production.
        IMHO hi
        Pyssy. The pressing depth can affect the clearance and gas leakage, respectively, the initial speed, although I'm not sure, I haven't come across something like that ...
  16. 0
    25 May 2022 13: 54
    the 54R still has a "rim", which complicates the production of automatic weapons for it .... and, in fact, there are no samples of imported weapons for it .... hence the prevalence.
  17. 0
    25 May 2022 14: 19
    Quote: ZloyKot

    I read somewhere, I don’t remember who, what chamber wear just a welt cartridge provides more accurate positioning of the bullet, which is why it was chosen for production in Russia

    The barrel loses accuracy from the height of the bullet entry. Not even from the wear of the rifling. And this will come much faster than the chamber wears out. And why should he wear out? But because of the low accuracy of deploying the chamber, it is possible.
    1. +1
      25 May 2022 17: 28
      To the question of the accuracy of "positioning", but in general, we are talking about the coincidence of the axis of the cartridge with the bullet, with the axis of the barrel in terms of geometry. The cartridge 7,62x54R in the chamber with its flange lies on the inflow of the barrel and automatically occupies a central position, everything is easy and simple, the sleeve behind the flange may not even touch the walls of the chamber at all (for example, it turned out to be a little shorter and in general there is a concept of landing tolerance), and anyway, it will definitely stand on the line of the axis of the barrel (provided that the sleeve itself is strictly symmetrical and the size of the flange corresponds to the size of the inflow). short and therefore allows some pitching of the sleeve in the cone, the ideal option for this method of centering is to make the sleeve conical for its entire length, but we are talking here about pure bottle sleeves.
  18. +2
    25 May 2022 18: 07
    Quote: agond
    lies on the inflow of the trunk and automatically takes a central position, everything is easy and simple

    My dear, you can theorize as much as you like. Only now I have not heard that benchrest fired flanged cartridges. Although there are single-shot rifles and the problem of feeding from the store is not worth it. And no one shoots better than benchresters.
  19. Jan
    +1
    25 May 2022 21: 12
    Again, "pennies for fish" ... everyone understands that high-quality cartridges are needed, but no one can tell you how to achieve this on old and dead equipment !!! New gunpowder, right ... ???! New technologies... probably from Skolkovo?! And as for the welt: under the tsar it was “nenad”, there was no money under the advice, and now I’m at a loss ... maybe they don’t care about such trifles ?! After all, there are tasks on a larger scale and more profitable, but here it smells of work and worries! Still shoots, so what else to wish for something !!! Progress??? Development??? Not unheard of, and all this is expensive and problematic. And again, no one "nenad"!!!
  20. 0
    25 May 2022 21: 42
    I just want to attribute at the bottom as they wrote in school essays
    Good summer in the countryside!
    wassat
    1. +2
      26 May 2022 09: 15
      Quote: KSVK
      Only now I have not heard that benchrest fired flanged cartridges.

      They have the presence or absence of a flange there is not decisive, (there are a lot of different things), but the arrows only load cartridges themselves, piece-made rifles to order with special bolts,
      It is known that the sleeves always have an outer diameter less than the inner diameter of the chamber, and a length shorter than the chamber (otherwise it simply will not fit into it or the shutter will not close) and therefore there is always a transverse and longitudinal play of the cartridge when the shutter is closed, unfortunately in our weapons, it can be quite significant. To remove the backlash, you need to move the cartridge until its shoulders stop against the cone of the chamber, but since the length of the sleeves differs even in one series, the amount of advance will be different and here you must either manually select the sleeves of the ideal length, or the shutter should, as it were, "screw", what to adapt to the length of a particular sleeve
      By the way, if ordinary 7,62x54R cartridges are sorted manually and reloaded according to a new one, using the same technology as theirs, then they will certainly be no worse than sniper ones
      1. +1
        26 May 2022 16: 21
        +100500. And they don’t shoot a bench from it, because. no one makes expensive components for this cartridge and screws for $ 10000 or more - even more so. Yes, and shooting a benchrest with a 30-caliber is not very convenient, 5,56-6,5 go there, basically. There, in general, a bullet is planted immediately on the rifling a little bit, so that there is no "jump".
  21. +2
    26 May 2022 16: 15
    308 is the most common rifle cartridge and there is not a single rifle manufacturer in the world that does not make a barrel in this caliber. 7,62x54 will never be able to, because weapons for it were made and are being made in large quantities only in Russia and the USSR, and besides, 90% for the military, and 308 has become widespread thanks to, incl. civilian weapons.
    The initial speeds in the article are not correct, because. for 7,62x54 there are options and 830 m / s with such a bullet, there are 870 with a light one, and even a 750g hunting half-shell gives out 13 m / s and not from 730 mm, but from a 620 mm barrel. For the 308, there are generally a huge number of options for factory equipment and many of them exceed 800 m / s.
    Even 9,3x62 - a hunting cartridge with a 18,5g bullet gives out 800 m / s, I gave out 783 on average for 5 shots from a 51 cm barrel (short) according to the chronograph.
  22. 0
    29 May 2022 17: 06
    His grandfather, in .30-06, was adopted by the US Army in 1906. After going through the Second World War, it was replaced by a cartridge of 7,62x51 mm, ..
    Around the same time, Oliver Winchester recognized the commercial potential of the 7,62x51mm cartridge and introduced a very similar cartridge in .308 Winchester for the civilian hunting and shooting market.


    The author, explain in more detail what "about the same" years are we talking about if Oliver Winchester died in 1880?
  23. 0
    11 June 2022 17: 46
    For aimed shooting, a couple of years ago, Rogovtsev's cartridge lost in terms of convenience and choice of bullets. Now there is everything for reload. Collecting a dozen 3 rounds for shooting is no problem. The nomenclature of bullets is of course beyond 308m. The whole world produces it, but in the current realities, supplies to the Russian Federation are limited, so it will have to be assembled from domestic components. If you take guns for these cartridges, there are plenty of them all. You can find CNC-machined full solid copper bar bullets for sale in both calibers. There is also gunpowder for rifles, like all other consumables.
    The fable is that when solving the problem of optimizing ballistics, Colonel Rogovtsev calculated many options for European and American cartridges of that time, according to calculations, it turned out that in order to use the maximum possible weights of bullets for different weapons, from a machine gun to a rifle, the volume of the charging chamber of the sleeve is X cube cm. Next came the geometric calculation of the sleeve with the selected welt construct. Practice has shown that the colonel very accurately solved the problem. No wonder the cartridge has been used for 131 years.
    Gunpowder, guns are changing, but the ratio of the volume of gunpowder and the weight of the bullet is optimal. The Americans also came to this ratio, only much later. In addition, Colonel Rogovtsev calculated the caliber and rifling pitch of the rifle chambered for this cartridge. The artillery colonels of the Russian Empire are very advanced uncles. Estimate in your mind how much money they saved the treasury by excluding the rearmament of the army for another cartridge. What did the US get into when switching to 308? The numbers are serious, especially since both the ruble and the dollar were then backed by gold.
    You can rub for this for a long time, the fable is that the RF Armed Forces have high-precision rifles chambered for this cartridge. Last year, sniping in Patriot Park did not reveal a clear advantage, with a good gun and a good shooter.
  24. 0
    25 June 2022 23: 31
    Fly "sideways" when switching to subsonic!? Oh well. It just increases the dispersion a little at that distance. And then comes stabilization. The bullet "calms down" again.
  25. 0
    27 June 2022 13: 56
    Even comparing their own cartridges and this well-known Sellier & Bellot, Hornady, preference is given to their own. More accurate weighing of gunpowder, drank by weight, etc. Your cartridge is more precisely half a MOA ..
  26. 0
    30 June 2022 18: 46
    The 7,62x54R cartridge has many advantages! The downside is the difficulty of feeding a cartridge from the magazine (tape) to the chamber, although Russian gunsmiths have solved this problem a long time ago. Considering this cartridge obsolete because someone else makes other cartridges is stupid! Therefore, I think it is appropriate to discuss the culture of cartridge production in Russia, and not the design of the cartridge itself. Mass character mass character, but the release of cartridges "for practitioners" with a high level of quality can be organized.
  27. 0
    22 August 2022 13: 17
    I have a bolt in 30-06 and I shot it with a bullet of 11,7 by 200 meters, this is difficult to do with 308. And our three-line, due to the lack of modern carbines from our manufacturers, has not spread so much, although beyond the Urals 90% of hunters have only our Orthodox cartridge, thanks to SVD and VPO-123, and of course the three-line!
  28. 0
    4 February 2023 13: 28
    Still, it’s not entirely correct to consider a cartridge from 1981 ... A cartridge structurally similar to the one used now has been around since 1908 ... It is clear that it has been modernized more than once, but it was structurally and outwardly similar to the modern one that appeared in 1908.
    About the fact that the industry of the USSR could not produce rimless cartridge cases, this is ridiculous, 7,62 * 39 began to be produced back in the 40s ... Production volumes, taking into account the complete rearmament of the army on AKM, were huge ...
    The question was different, for a long time this cartridge was mainly machine-gun, and for a machine-gun it is a wonderful cartridge, cheap, powerful, and even excess dispersion is more beneficial ...
    Actually, 7,62 * 51 is better for snipers because it has a larger selection of better quality cartridges ... And then army snipers often use SVD and Sv-98 rifles because otherwise it is difficult to arrange their supply of cartridges. It is one thing for the special forces, who took the BC, left for the operation, completed it, then returned to the base, and quite another for the army men, who are in the trenches at the forefront, and they also need a sniper. But who will take them high-precision sniper cartridges 7,61 * 51 there? No one ... Most likely, sniper 7,62 * 54 will not be lucky either, but there will always be plenty of gross cartridges.
  29. 0
    22 May 2023 18: 21
    The author, if you are comparing cartridges, then compare the weight of gunpowder and the weight of the bullets. The 7,62 by 54 mm cartridge is potentially the best and most powerful cartridge, even compared to the 30 06 cartridge. It was such in WWII. But after the traitors, I'm not afraid of this word, made him weak. Do you know that our cartridges are tested to work at temperatures from -60 to +70 degrees? Our cartridge can hold up to 3,25 grams of gunpowder, have a bullet weighing up to 14 grams and have an energy of 4200 joules? So what are the enemies of Russia doing? The weight of bullets in live ammunition is no more than 9,6 grams, and the weight of gunpowder, which is not indicated, but in terms of energy and speed of the bullet, is 2,5 grams. In American cartridges, the bullets are heavier and the weight of gunpowder is larger. That's the whole secret! The BS40 bullet had the maximum performance for our cartridge, but it was removed from service a long time ago. Then they shot at two kilometers, but now at 800 meters it is not good. Why is a modern sniper bullet so successful? What does the author like about it?