The doctor said - to the morgue, then to the morgue!

113

As it seems to many on the other side of the globe, the half-action-half-horror movie called "American Littoral Ships" is confidently sailing to its finale. Even if you don’t follow the principle “the neighbor’s dacha burned down ...”, but simply read our good friend Kyle Mizokami, who is published in many decent publications (this time “Popmech”), it becomes clear that even old Kyle’s optimism is sinking, like "Titanic". That is, slowly, but very confidently.

Yes, half of the intertidal ships of the American fleet already threaten disposal due to the fact that "could not." But who said that everything is fine with the second half, and the ships will at least try to work out the funds invested in them?



Unfortunately no. It's pretty sad there too.

Having familiarized themselves with the materials of the newspaper "Navy Times", whose journalists got hold of a certain amount of official documentation, everyone to whom the topic is important, became very thoughtful.

The fact is that the documents were internal, but representatives of the US Navy confirmed that this is the case. First of all, this indicates that the problem is a very significant headache, which cannot be solved quickly, cheaply, and most importantly, quietly.

What is it about these documents that cannot be hushed up and difficult to quietly correct?

And there are cracks. Just cracks in the hulls of Independence-class ships, due to which aluminum trimarans simply cannot reach speeds of more than 15 knots and go to sea with a wave of more than 2,5 meters or 5 points on the Beaufort scale.

Questions have arisen to the manufacturer Austal ...

True, representatives of the US Navy very cheerfully stated that cracks in the hulls of ships do not pose a threat to the safety of the crews. True, no one specified under what conditions. It is so clear that if the ship is moored at the quay wall, then yes, it will not be afraid of cracks. But what if at sea, when completing a task, and even in weather that does not know about cracks?

The brave American sailors said they had a plan to fix everything. Without going into details. As everyone who followed the topic understood, the plan was to hit the manufacturers hard, that is, the American company Austal.

The representative of the company did not stand aside and also began to make statements on the topic that they are well aware of what needs to be done to correct the situation. But it was only half an orange.

The main problem turned out to be that Austal knows (or pretends to know) what needs to be done. However, it is not at all clear how much it will cost, how the repair will look in terms of timing, and most importantly, who will pay.

Well, the most burning question: who is to blame?

The Americans will really have to deal with this, because sorry, the hull of a ship is not the fuselage of an aircraft. The thickness is somewhat different and the requirements in terms of strength too. Why did cracks form in the hulls of ships, where the thickness of the metal is measured not in millimeters, but in tens? Manufacturer's defect? Error in strength calculations? Mistake in formulating supplements?

There are no less questions than cracks.

And “what to do” is also a question. Aluminum is not quite the metal that allows many operations on itself. Cooking in argon, soldering with the help of tricky chemistry - and, perhaps, that's all. But the situation itself is complicated, it is one thing to solder an ear to the gearbox, another thing is to solder a crack in a thick sheet.

In general, there will obviously be a lot of headaches.

In the meantime, the bottom line is that ships that can develop up to 40 knots are prescribed, if they go to sea, to drag at the speed of a good fishing seiner. To avoid. All. Yes, the US Navy press service said that “all Independence-class ships are capable of meeting “operational requirements”, but there is one word here that ruins everything.

“Able to comply” does not mean that they comply.

Many times there have been opinions that the project of littoral ships in itself is nothing more than a giant cut. What is there to hide, in the USA they know how and practice this business, so much so that the whole world chokes on saliva with envy.


These under-frigates, LCS ships, were supposed to take over the protection of coastal waters, brought many difficult moments from their very appearance.

The idea is not bad: a fast ship capable of quickly advancing to a given area, equipped with everything necessary to repel any threat and perform any security operation.

However, the littoral ships leave the shipyard armed to a minimum: one 57-mm cannon, two anti-aircraft 30-mm automatic cannons, RIM-116 air defense systems (21 missiles). The rest of the weapons were supposed to be in combat modules, which could be changed depending on the task: mine, anti-aircraft, anti-submarine, and so on.

For 15 years of work, the US Navy was able to receive and master only one type of module, anti-missile. The heart of the module was the Longbow Hellfire missile modified for these purposes from Hellfire Systems LLC, which is part of the Lockheed Martin / Boeing concern. The first ship to receive a missile defense module was the Milwaukee. The commissioning of the remaining modules, as we now say, was “shifted to the right”, and, apparently, they were moving by an ocean tug.

In addition, the process of replacing the module itself turned out to be not so fast, and, according to many American experts, it can take up to a month. This is not efficiency, whatever one may say.

And little by little, the very idea of ​​changing modules began to die. Indeed, an enemy submarine is unlikely to even wait two weeks for the module and crew to be replaced on the littoral. Here is a question of a different nature.

Therefore, they somehow stopped talking about changing modules at all, and then the very idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbmodular ships began to crumble. Indeed, it is easier to equip a ship once and use it for its intended purpose than to keep three equipment options for one ship with three groups of specialists.

And now the idea of ​​littoral is clearly starting to die. The secondary missions that were planned to be assigned to the LCS, such as "irregular combat operations" and support for the MTR forces, also gradually began to be forgotten. It is understandable that in order to conduct combat operations or support special operations forces, one must have something in equipment for this. The 57 mm gun does not look like a serious support in this regard.

The doctor said - to the morgue, then to the morgue!

As a result, the fleet of coastal ships has nothing to brag about: the Independence class turned out to be very dependent, and the Freedom class is frankly not free from many parameters. If you remember, it all started with the fact that on the ships that entered service, general problems with engines began. Then came the turn of on-board electronics, now here are the cracks in the cases.

And all this against the backdrop of huge cost overruns for construction and very high operating costs. In general, it does not pull on the victory in any way. There is complete resentment.

Not surprisingly, after looking at all this, the command of the US Navy proposed decommissioning all ships of the Freedom class ("Freedom"), even those that were in operation for less than 5 years. Such a fate is destined for six ships out of nine, which in itself looks terrible, given that the oldest of the Freedoms is 14 years old, and the youngest of the decommissioned is 4 years old.

But there are 2 more ships in the completion, 3 on the stocks and 2 ships in the project. That is, 8 more ships.

With the “Independence” class, which is not only bursting at the seams, everything is also not very rosy in this regard. 2 ships are under construction, one is on the stocks, and 5 are being prepared for laying.

It is clear that the US Navy will not be able to get away from the built ships on the principle of "paid - take it." So you have to take it, but there are very big doubts that the service of these ships will be long.

If you look at what is happening in the bowels of the American fleet, then everything is very far from ideal. After all, coastal "Independence" and "Freedom" - this is not the whole list of problems. The Zamvolts easily come here, which have approximately the same set of weak points, except for problems with the hull. They wanted to build 32 destroyers, but everything ended with three. Further, the budget simply does not pull.


And the aircraft carrier "Ford" can be remembered, since its introduction into combat formation is also delayed. And the delay is millions and millions of dollars.

In this regard, the slow riveting of corvettes and missile boats in Russia looks somehow even soothing. At least they don't sink, stop, or catch fire for no apparent reason.

In our time - already something.

Finishing the sad topic of the sad coastal ships of the US Navy, I would like to say the following: the navy, when it becomes a toy for cutting the budget, ceases to be a fleet. It's unpleasant, but true. As an example, when a missile cruiser that seems to be modernized for a lot of money cannot oppose anything to a pair of missiles and drone. Or when a ship, which is supposed to catch up and reason with the enemy at a speed of under 100 km / h (okay, 40+ knots), flops at a speed three times less, shying away from a more or less decent wave.

Ships are to be loved. Yes, it is also necessary to spend money on them, but on ships, and not apartments and villas on warm secluded shores. This axiom is valid for any state that wants to have a navy.
113 comments
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  1. +4
    23 May 2022 04: 01
    Sir, I'm sorry, but you're a little off.
    And the aircraft carrier "Ford" can be remembered, since its introduction into combat formation is also delayed. And the delay is millions and millions of dollars.
    Zyama's photo?
    1. +1
      23 May 2022 05: 51
      Apparently, the manufacturers and the customer are in a hurry to get faster profits and get kickbacks without completely thinking through and not finishing what was planned ... Business and nothing personal. And we don’t care about their problems and in a different way: The more problems they have, the more interesting it is for us to watch them wink
      1. +4
        23 May 2022 20: 04
        Quote: Tatar 174
        manufacturers and the customer are in a hurry faster than profits and getting kickbacks without completely thinking through and not completing what was planned ...

        1.Customer and profit? Well, if only he lobbies the project and a share of the results.
        2. Manufacturers. We received the working documentation in our hands, and then technologists and quality control department! - also, as if nothing to do with it, if they obviously did not close their eyes to the violation of the technical process.
        3. Not quite thinking out (!) And here it is just to the point, as they say: there is an obvious engineering miscalculation! Metal chemists and steelworkers welded something wrong: well, the body should not crack on the wave if the alloy has normal fluidity ... That's why it is called SHIP steel, special, by the way!
        Or maybe they don’t have enough sopromat engineers, or did Petrov and Bashirov put a bullshit in the program (software) of calculations, and now she’s messing with them? It's possible, but unlikely...
        One thing is clear: the engineering service of this company is NOT ICE!!! negative
        The question is: and where did the vaunted engineering ship-lyak Amer school go??? In order to screw up with a SERIES (!) ... You need to try very hard!
        In short, I'm in a trance. wassat
        (To the novel - "grand merci" for the style and ease of presentation. Nothing to say - pleased! good )
    2. +5
      23 May 2022 06: 08
      If a mattress cut on a defense order with littoral boats is a common thing, the long-term construction of Mercury, like a sawing toy for Chirkov, strongly rejected and stalled the ship program of the Russian Federation as a whole, since it included stillborn ideas of modularity, a low-speed electric drive, new and crude systems such as a barrier (under specific winner of the tender) and so on and so on
      1. -4
        23 May 2022 20: 26
        Quote: Anchorite
        stillborn ideas of modularity,

        Opinions are divided on this...
        The idea of ​​modularity has been on the mind since MEKO-2000. And it lies in the fact that there is only one horse (a ship, like a platform for wearable weapons), and a lot of tools (modules with weapons and military equipment for solving various problems), like a CNC machining center with spindles.
        What does such an approach give?
        1. savings in the number of BMZ ships - one carrier can be a TSC, PLC, GAN, PVO, DVO, PPDO, etc.
        2. modules are in a high degree of readiness at the base and at the right time are only connected by connectors to the ship's onboard power supply. The rest they have "everything with them"!
        3. calculation of the module on the ship only at the exit to the sea to solve a specific problem, and the crew of the ship (propulsion and power part of the platform) on an ongoing basis.
        Quote: Anchorite
        low speed electric drive,

        it is needed to search for submarines in sneak mode. And so the scheme of movement: diesel / turbine with the connection of the silo to the gearbox and LV; for a jump or transition to RP.
        Therefore, it is not Chirkov's fault that the professionals could not technically realize their plans. But the idea was not abandoned, there is 22160 with space for modules and autonomy like an icebreaker!
        Therefore, do not judge strictly, but do not be judged (unless, of course, you get caught on a "hot" one! bully )
      2. +2
        24 May 2022 22: 28
        Quote: Anchorite
        included stillborn ideas of modularity

        Removed from the tongue, colleague! I wanted to drop the saying "what a peasant is, then an ape", but you got ahead of me. How can one offer and finance a program that by that time had already proved its futility?!
    3. -1
      26 May 2022 00: 23
      I have 1 remark to the author: not "Zamvolty", but Zumwalt, correct pronunciation...
  2. +28
    23 May 2022 04: 25
    Whether it's our modular superships. An undercorvette at the price of a frigate 20386, an 76-man 80-mm cannon crew on an undercorvette-patrol ship 22160, capable of moving at the speed of a bulk carrier. There are no questions to these ships, as well as to the Buyan-M RTOs, which not only are not able to carry out air defense and anti-aircraft defense or cause damage to another ship without outside help, but they can also drown with waves of more than 5 points.
    But at least the Americans admit and correct their mistakes, but ours simply do not notice them.
    1. +8
      23 May 2022 04: 37
      The ambitions of our "successful managers" are as great as those abroad .. so there is nothing to be surprised .. hi
      1. +1
        24 May 2022 22: 31
        Quote: Angry 55
        The ambitions of our "successful managers" are so great

        They would still have brains and professionalism, they would not have a price!
    2. -1
      23 May 2022 05: 54
      It's a deal! :)
    3. +3
      23 May 2022 08: 11
      Quote: ramzay21
      But at least the Americans recognize and correct ...

      And they have no choice, the Chinese fleet is growing and getting stronger ...

      Quote: ramzay21
      and ours just don't notice them

      And for us, the fleet is just a "gift of tradition" or "to be", we are a "purely land power", oh yes, "if anything, we can ruin the whole world" ...
      1. +2
        23 May 2022 13: 23
        Quote: Doccor18
        And they have no choice, the Chinese fleet is growing and getting stronger ...

        We have a much worse choice, we had to choose many years ago
        1. +2
          23 May 2022 13: 37
          Quote: Cloud4
          should have been chosen many years ago

          It is never too late, it is important to already make this choice and go this way.
    4. -3
      23 May 2022 11: 10
      We can sit down for such an analysis of the situation in the fleet ..
      1. +2
        23 May 2022 22: 49
        We can sit down for such an analysis of the situation in the fleet ..

        After the death of the BDK and Moscow, this is no longer an analysis, but a statement of fact. And the criminals who led us to the current state of the fleet should be afraid, I personally am not afraid.
    5. -1
      24 May 2022 09: 16
      Quote: ramzay21
      Whether it's our modular superships. An undercorvette at the price of a frigate 20386, an 76-man 80-mm cannon crew on an undercorvette-patrol ship 22160, capable of moving at the speed of a bulk carrier. There are no questions to these ships, as well as to the Buyan-M RTOs, which not only are not able to carry out air defense and anti-aircraft defense or cause damage to another ship without outside help, but they can also drown with waves of more than 5 points.
      But at least the Americans admit and correct their mistakes, but ours simply do not notice them.

      So the whole point of this article is:

      In this regard, the slow riveting of corvettes and missile boats in Russia looks somehow even soothing. At least they don't sink, stop, or catch fire for no apparent reason.
    6. -2
      24 May 2022 15: 21
      Quote: ramzay21
      But at least the Americans admit and correct their mistakes, but ours simply do not notice them.

      Something did not see recognition.
  3. -1
    23 May 2022 05: 21
    The doctor said - to the morgue, then to the morgue!

    The corpse of the enemy smells good. - Roman emperor (69 AD) Avla Vitellius.
    1. 0
      31 July 2022 17: 08
      Why this maxim is not clear at all
  4. +2
    23 May 2022 05: 23
    For each modular version, you need to have your own team, since it is very difficult to prepare a universal team.
    1. +6
      23 May 2022 10: 13
      Quote: riwas
      For each modular version, you need to have your own team, since it is very difficult to prepare a universal team.

      Not just a team, but a trained one. And not on coastal simulators and simulators, but on real hardware in conditions as close as possible to combat ones. That is - at sea and on a living ship.
      As a result, it turns out that for each set of modules, in addition to the team, you need to have your own ship. smile
      1. 0
        23 May 2022 20: 38
        Quote: Alexey RA
        for each set of modules, in addition to the team, you need to have your own ship.

        No need to pervert the idea of ​​modularity.
        The carrier (horse) is one. A plow, a harrow, a seeder, a haymaker are included. At the same time, their village guys are sitting behind a plow, a seeder, a haymaker ...
        Is it clear now!? laughing
        1. 0
          24 May 2022 12: 40
          Quote: BoA KAA
          No need to pervert the idea of ​​modularity.
          The carrier (horse) is one. A plow, a harrow, a seeder, a haymaker are included. At the same time, their village guys are sitting behind a plow, a seeder, a haymaker ...
          Is it clear now!? laughing

          The problem is that in our case, the modules are not a plow, a harrow and a haymaker, but a seeder, a fishing trawl and a mine detector. With army money for a modular ship with a single crew, it is necessary to train specialists simultaneously in air defense, engineering, artillery and communications.
          With this approach, we get ... a universal ship in the worst sense of the term - makes everything equally bad.
          How professionally will the calculation of the air defense system work with torpedoes / PLURs or NPAs for searching and destroying mines? And the RTV-shniks of the SAM-shnoy radar station - with GAS PLO or GAS mine detection? And how long will it take for such a super-mega-calculus to prepare for all types of ship modules (with regular delivery of tasks)?
          Or do you suggest that the personnel, along with the modules, change their heads?
          I'm not talking about the problem of discrepancies in the number of calculations of different modules.
          1. 0
            24 May 2022 17: 52
            Quote: Alexey RA
            On the army money for a modular ship with a single crew, it is necessary to train specialists simultaneously in air defense, engineering, artillery and communications.

            1. All the problems of the Fleet began when the Armenians, ugh, the ARMY began to manage the money intended for the naval needs. When there was the Ministry of the Navy, there were no such problems.
            2. Modules WITH SPECIALISTS are loaded on board. And no one will carry extra. There are plenty of places to stay.
            The analogy with the horse did not convince you, maybe it will be clearer this way:
            - a trailer (carrier ship) loads onto the T-90M platform (a strike weapon module - anti-ship missiles, for example) - this is a strike option;
            - if Pantsir-ME is loaded onto the trailer, this is an air defense option; and if the Mole engineering machine is loaded, this is a PMO variant - a minesweeper. Of course, plus the GAS mine detection station and KIU are also included ...
            All parts of the system (tractor, tank, ZPRK) have their own prepared calculations. There are no extras. They will find a place for NPA, UAV and other crap. The main thing is to meet the dimensions and ensure that there is enough energy for everything.
            1. 0
              24 May 2022 18: 50
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              2. Modules WITH SPECIALISTS are loaded on board. And no one will carry extra. There are plenty of places to stay.
              The analogy with the horse did not convince you, maybe it will be clearer this way:
              - a trailer (carrier ship) loads onto the T-90M platform (a strike weapon module - anti-ship missiles, for example) - this is a strike option;
              - if Pantsir-ME is loaded onto the trailer, this is an air defense option; and if the Mole engineering machine is loaded, this is a PMO variant - a minesweeper. Of course, plus the GAS mine detection station and KIU are also included ...
              All parts of the system (tractor, tank, ZPRK) have their own prepared calculations. There are no extras.

              The analogy is good, but wrong. On the trailer ship, we are loading not the T-90, but only its turret, without the chassis, power plant and communication systems. And not "Shell", but only its combat module without a chassis, power plant and surveillance radar. So the question is - where and how to train the crews of these "legless", "blind" and "deaf" modules?
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Not just a team, but a trained one. And not on coastal simulators and simulators, but on real "iron" in conditions as close as possible to combat. That is - at sea and on a living ship.
              As a result, it turns out that for each set of modules, in addition to the team, you need to have your own ship.

              The navy is not the army. Calculations of marine modules cannot be prepared without a module carrier. As a result, we will have to:
              - either have training modular ships of the same type, exclusively engaged in the training of module crews,
              - either follow the path of the whole world - forget about changing classes of modules and immediately make a modular ship of a permanent purpose, equipped with a set of modules of a permanent type for the entire service life (modules can only be upgraded).
              1. 0
                24 May 2022 19: 38
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Calculations of marine modules cannot be prepared without a module carrier.

                1. Nowadays, "augmented reality" simulators make recruits even throw grub overboard, sending greetings to Neptune from the depths of their souls... laughing Not to mention the complete imitation of the combat process of using weapons.
                2. Still, there will be a brigade, and this is at least 6 units. I believe that different modules will be installed on 3-4 of them, and neophiles of maritime affairs will run through them. And when you need to look for a boat or conduct PMD, then everyone will receive a target load to solve a specific problem at sea.
                This is how I see the solution to this problem. hi
              2. 0
                31 July 2022 17: 12
                + do not forget that the crews of unused modules beat their thumbs on the shore
        2. 0
          25 May 2022 15: 55
          the thing is that a plow, a harrow, a seeder, a mower is a tool without a crew, the tractor driver, in theory, is equally well controlled with all this. but in reality, there may be nuances here.
  5. -3
    23 May 2022 05: 27
    that cracks in ship hulls do not pose a threat for the safety of the crew.
    belay fool
    “Zamvolts” easily go here, which have about the same set of weaknesses,
    "But I like it. It's so perky ..." (Office romance)
    1. 0
      23 May 2022 19: 57
      "All-weapons" minuses have already been thrown ... laughing
  6. 0
    23 May 2022 05: 40
    Ships need to be loved
    good I agree ! drinks
  7. +3
    23 May 2022 05: 41
    IMHO, attempts to make a universal ship, with a very small
    m displacement, always leads to do not understand what. In general, it’s a pity for the boats - they just started to live, and they are already on pins and needles
    1. +5
      23 May 2022 05: 58
      Quote from Whitefall
      In general, it’s a pity for the boats - they just started to live, and they are already on pins and needles

      Don't feel sorry for THEM - these are our enemies and THEM ships are enemy.
      1. +6
        23 May 2022 06: 05
        Still feel sorry for the ships. I just remember how our ships and planes sawed new ones in the 90s. And about ov - let them get what they deserve. Let them also feel what the 90s we had
    2. +1
      23 May 2022 15: 45
      Not even needles will come out. Luminium.
      By the way, why not composite? Luminum is more expensive?
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. +2
    23 May 2022 06: 27
    It's just an out. Ships are more expensive than planes and, of course, tanks. How much was invested in the development of the whole series, it is incomprehensible to the mind. Full fail.
  10. -12
    23 May 2022 06: 31
    The author, in his own country, first, solve the problems.
    And then about others .. think ....
    1. 0
      25 May 2022 17: 15
      Quote from Hyper_X
      The author, in his own country, first, solve the problems.
      And then about others .. think ....

      Well, why learn from the mistakes of others? We will, like lemmings, learn only from our own.
  11. 0
    23 May 2022 07: 50
    The Navy does not like the LCS and they are mercilessly removed from service. And it is right!
    The freed money will go to the destroyers Arleigh Burke.

    And we are all pulling a suitcase without a handle, which eats money and resources.
    1. +7
      23 May 2022 08: 21
      To be more precise, the money will go to the frigates of the Constellation series (one of the variants of the European FREMM). Quite a serious machine, and most importantly - it is known for sure that it will not fall apart.

      As for the LKSH, their problems were obvious from the very beginning, and the only question in their fate is "What about the tribunal?"
      1. +1
        23 May 2022 08: 33
        Well, someone will answer for the money spent. The one who lobbied for the LCS program.
        1. +9
          23 May 2022 09: 13
          When the Americans begin to ask from "their" for wrecking, it will be another America. From the very first day, when Perry was replaced by two SAME ships of DIFFERENT types, while none of them could replace Perry, it was clear that agents of the USSR Ministry of Shipbuilding Industry, students of the legendary comrade Butoma, had made their way to America. However, no one has yet been held accountable for these decisions.
          1. 0
            23 May 2022 10: 05
            I'm not sure, maybe I'm wrong, but one of the senators resigned in connection with the LCS.
            There was no trial, but someone left on their own.
            1. +4
              23 May 2022 10: 29
              The senator does not decide on specific details of shipbuilding programs. He can only participate in the discussion. It's like dismissing some deputy for Kuznetsov, or rather, expelling him from some committee of the Duma.
              1. 0
                23 May 2022 10: 51
                The senator does not decide on specific details of shipbuilding programs. He can only participate in the discussion. It's like dismissing some deputy for Kuznetsov, or rather, excluding him from some committee of the Duma

                You, probably. are right.
          2. +5
            23 May 2022 10: 47
            Quote: Negro
            When the Americans begin to ask from "their" for wrecking, it will be another America. From the very first day, when Perry was replaced by two SAME ships of DIFFERENT types, while none of them could replace Perry, it was clear that agents of the USSR Ministry of Shipbuilding Industry, students of the legendary comrade Butoma, had made their way to America.

            You will also remember a nice feature of these types: the Freedom has a steel hull with a light-alloy superstructure, the Independence has a completely light-alloy hull and superstructure. The fire on the Belknap CR and other fires on ships with light alloy structural elements in the 70s and 80s, the death of British type 21 FRs near the Falklands - all this was firmly forgotten by those who designed and built, and those who made TK and accepted. And then, those who had previously taken LCS began to cry about their completely insufficient survivability. smile
            1. -2
              23 May 2022 11: 01
              Quote: Alexey RA
              The fire on the Belknap CR and other fires on ships with light alloy structural elements in the 70s and 80s, the death of British type 21 FRs near the Falklands - all this was firmly forgotten by those who designed and built, and those who made TK and accepted

              According to our will not shoot.

              This went especially well in combination with the "Litorian" - that is, hypothetically actions off the coast - and the complete absence of over-the-horizon weapons, at least artillery. Well, the icing on the cake is the train of thought of the current Russian Navy - requirements for a coast guard ship are added to the terms of reference for a warship.

              And they say intelligence is not the same. Our people are everywhere!
              1. +3
                23 May 2022 11: 41
                Quote: Negro
                Well, the icing on the cake is the train of thought of the current Russian Navy - requirements for a coast guard ship are added to the terms of reference for a warship.

                PMSM, it was the other way around there - in the original technical specification for the BOHR ship (and 22160 was planned as PSKR as a girl) they added the most vague points of requirements for the Navy ship in order to somehow justify the purchase for the fleet this dove of peace.
                1. +1
                  23 May 2022 12: 06
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  PMSM, it was the other way around

                  We will never know the whole truth.(C)

                  But for LKS IMHO, it was the requirement of 50 nodes that became fatal. From here went inadequate decisions on the hull and power.

                  By itself, the idea of ​​building a "bush" of ships on one base is quite working. But the Americans, firstly, have an unsuccessful base, and secondly, the idea of ​​"hot-swapping" combat modules on one ship instead of a family of ships turned out to be a mistake.

                  If the enemies washed down their Baden-Württemberg (especially in the original version, with 155mm and highmars) - this would be a serious conversation.
        2. 0
          23 May 2022 20: 00
          Are you serious? Or are you joking like this ... lobbying in the States is a completely legal matter and nobody is punished for this.
    2. 0
      23 May 2022 15: 47
      Why are burks still being built? Like bae, Zamwalt Forever...
  12. +1
    23 May 2022 09: 40
    The fleet has historically been the most tasty object for cutting. It suffices to recall, for example, c. K. General-Admiral Alexei Alexandrovich.
  13. +3
    23 May 2022 09: 43
    For 15 years of work, the US Navy was able to receive and master only one type of module, anti-missile. The Longbow Hellfire missile modified for these purposes became the heart of the module.


    Lord, what is this? What else is a helfire PRO? This is an attack missile, moreover, with a range of 9 km - which in itself is a sabotage for a ship's weapon, which should work from beyond the horizon.
    1. +1
      23 May 2022 10: 36
      Hellfire is really worth it. And this is the module.
      Only he is against ~shahidmobiles~shahid boats
      There is nothing about there
      Air defense:
      RAM Mk. 31 They're stingers, although version 2 got better
      1. +1
        23 May 2022 10: 52
        Quote from TreeSmall
        RAM Mk. 31 These are stingers

        Well, about stingers, for example, a bike. A full-fledged rocket weighing 70 kg. An analogue of Osa-M approximately.
        1. 0
          23 May 2022 11: 17
          A bike that they are standing there or a bike that stingers exist?
          In total, RAM air defense systems are in service with 165 ships of the US Navy, Germany, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Greece, South Korea, Turkey and Japan.

          Not analog.
          9M33 needs SOC and SSC
          1. 0
            23 May 2022 11: 32
            It means that the rocket is much more powerful and heavy.
    2. +1
      23 May 2022 12: 12
      Quote: Negro
      What else is a helfire PRO?
      They tried to write this anti-boat.
  14. +1
    23 May 2022 10: 09
    At least they don't sink, stop, or catch fire for no apparent reason.

    Well, yes, we have the reasons visible. What on new ships, what on aircraft-carrying cruisers. And the flagships of the fleet, along with the floating docks, are sinking for ABSOLUTELY understandable reasons.
  15. +2
    23 May 2022 10: 30
    Ships are to be loved. Yes, it is also necessary to spend money on them, but on ships, and not apartments and villas on warm secluded shores. This axiom is valid for any state that wants to have a navy.
    Probably in the USA, they will read this article and draw the appropriate conclusions. smile
    1. Fat
      +3
      23 May 2022 11: 38
      hi Daniel. R. Skomorokhov too freely throws around the powerful word "axiom", although he cites a hastily formulated postulate. The rhetoric won, once again I could not help sticking a beautiful slogan into a generally good article. smile
      1. +2
        23 May 2022 11: 48
        I could not once again stick in a generally good article with a beautiful slogan.
        This is typical of him.. smile
  16. +4
    23 May 2022 10: 41
    Charming) In general, aluminum, like duralumin, cannot be cooked at all in large forms if its thickness is not tens of centimeters. I think for a ship the wall thickness should be thirty centimeters) A weld in such conditions is a work of art, but it will hold. Maybe. If you're lucky)
    But in general, aircraft manufacturers still rivet airplanes) Welding is not suitable for this material. Cosmonauts pour their modules in their entirety. Then they are milled. That is, no one initially planned to sail on such ships. They just wanted to cut some money, and they did. Due to the fact that not a single engineer was admitted to the project, to its technical solutions))
    1. +3
      23 May 2022 11: 17
      The main thing is that in our Navy they don’t start asking the question “what, could it be like that?”
      1. 0
        23 May 2022 21: 10
        What for? Everything is easier for us. To milk our budget, no need to be clever. There are other methods.
    2. +1
      23 May 2022 15: 52
      Actually, aluminum, like duralumin ....
      I wanted to write a lot of things to you about the technology of aluminum alloys, but there will be a lot of books. Take a material technology textbook, you won't look funny
      1. -2
        23 May 2022 21: 08
        Quote: Bobik012
        Take a textbook on materials technology,

        Why?) Here the Americans took this textbook, and now they look funny. True, the billions stolen with the help of a textbook look unfunny, it’s a pity that I don’t have a share. I would not refuse to shake the Pentagon even a little)
        And aircraft builders and aircraft designers look even funnier, suckers, right? Here they, apparently, did not read your textbook. Textbooks are good. But without practice... funny, yes.
  17. +2
    23 May 2022 11: 22
    Actually the idea of ​​modularity for a ship isn't that bad; it all depends on how you understand it. If we have one successful hull and one successful power plant, then we can produce ships with different sets of modules directly from the shipyard - if we do not assume that the modules will be replaced on an already completed ship. It is understood that a ship of the same hull design and power plant can be equipped either as an RTO, or as a corvette, or as an anti-submarine escort.
    The criticism of this approach is that such modularity implies an increase in displacement in comparison with the classical installation of equipment. But this is "saving on matches", since the increase in displacement in itself is not evil, but rather a blessing: such ships have a greater reserve of stability.
    And yes: the 57-mm cannon is not a reason for criticism: if it is equipped with specialized projectiles, it can be used against UAVs, which today have become a real threat.
    1. +1
      23 May 2022 18: 13
      Quote: Murat
      Actually the idea of ​​modularity for a ship isn't that bad; it all depends on how you understand it. If we have one successful hull and one successful power plant, then we can produce ships with different sets of modules directly from the shipyard


      This is the production modularity that comes with standardization. Specifically for Russian shipbuilding, this is good because there is a very persistent historical tradition of producing a used conveyor product for decades - on an anecdotal scale, this takes the form of such phenomena as the production of an ever-actual "loaf" by car factories or classic Zhiguli or An-2. On the one hand, it is very difficult to change the model range, on the other hand, this allows you to start producing cheap standard components, but on condition that you initially invest at the design stage and make a very high-quality product, which is then not simplified to reduce the cost.

      In general, it’s bad that there is no such ultra-stable production of frame houses in the country now - this would have a good effect on the housing market and demographics.
      1. 0
        23 May 2022 21: 36
        Quote: ycuce234-san
        release of the ever-relevant "loaf" by car factories

        You are absolutely in vain laughing at the "loaf". Yes, she has an unsightly exterior of the last century, but on the other hand she has UNRIVALED off-road patency. That's why they release it, because the MILITARY order it as a medical service car - an all-terrain vehicle. And her face could, if desired, be refurbished for a long time to a modern design. But this would pull the price, and the military does not need it. Yes, and in battle they don’t look at the face, but how the car rushes off-road. Not all the wounded on the armored vehicles from the battlefield to the rear.
        So, brother, private of the Preobrazhensky Infantry Regiment
  18. +2
    23 May 2022 11: 37
    The representative of the company did not stand aside and also began to make statements on the topic that they are well aware of what needs to be done to correct the situation.


    wassat but what is there to think about - Moment glue, moisture resistant and blue electrical tape will solve the problem!
  19. BAI
    0
    23 May 2022 12: 12
    At least they don't sink, stop, or catch fire for no apparent reason.

    Did the cruiser "Moskva" know about this?
  20. 0
    23 May 2022 13: 16
    ... And what - very good ships (for the American fleet)! We wish them more of them)))
  21. +3
    23 May 2022 13: 18
    Aluminum is not quite the metal that allows many operations on itself. Cooking in argon, soldering with tricky chemistry - and, perhaps, all


    Yep, everything. From time immemorial, a riveted seam was used before the advent of welding. And a better weld. Cracks are treated with rivet overlays. I don’t think that the whole duralumin is “bursting” there - most likely in places of stress. The point, probably, is not in the material, but in the general idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbsuch ships.
    1. +1
      23 May 2022 13: 33
      Rather, they did not take into account all the loads in full.
    2. 0
      23 May 2022 14: 11
      For information (I will support you in the topic of riveting): the Mogami cruiser in IJN was welded, but after getting into a storm, it had to be urgently repaired with partial replacement of welds with riveting.
      1. 0
        23 May 2022 15: 59
        cruiser Mogami in IJN was welded
        Since then, welding technology, as it were, has improved somewhat. It is not at all necessary to rivet steel ships, you can also cook them. I can't speak for aluminum. Rather, indeed, they did not calculate the stress concentration in the elements of a large body. There is little experience in building large aluminum vessels in the world. I just don’t understand why they didn’t like their classic case, did you decide to make it more expensive?
        1. 0
          23 May 2022 21: 41
          Quote: Bobik012
          than their classic case did not suit,

          The speed and stability on a trimaran wave is higher, hence the seaworthiness
          1. 0
            24 May 2022 04: 34
            I'm not talking about the form, about the material
            1. +1
              24 May 2022 18: 09
              Quote: Bobik012
              about material

              So it was only we who could build boats from titanium, damn it. The Yankees are too rich to afford such a luxury! So they are experimenting with duralumin alloys. They are lighter than steel alloys, hence the displacement, speed, and range of the ship. And they don’t want to raise the hull out of the water, as they did on the Bor, pr. 1240, mpk pr. 1141.
  22. 0
    23 May 2022 13: 32
    As for soldering and welding - you can consider polymer fillers to repair cracks if they are small
  23. +1
    23 May 2022 13: 59
    That's right, everyone must know what "littoral" is. Not everyone and not all of them are so "advanced" that they can easily speak bird language.
  24. -1
    23 May 2022 14: 09
    The author, or maybe instead of fouling Amer's boats and counting their money, look at the beam in the eye of our fleet? The most stupid and disgusting thing is to count money in someone else's wallet and rejoice in someone else's failures.
    1. +3
      23 May 2022 16: 02
      Start with yourself. From your fleet. We'll deal with ours without you.
      1. -1
        24 May 2022 13: 48
        I don't have my own fleet.
        1. -1
          24 May 2022 13: 57
          I mean the same. Not for your cow to moo
          1. 0
            24 May 2022 14: 26
            Not for you to decide. Or do you see enemies everywhere?
  25. -1
    23 May 2022 14: 16
    The Navy has the biggest budget, they stupidly snickered there! I can imagine how the Marines are sharpening their teeth on them now hi
  26. +1
    23 May 2022 16: 45
    Russia and China are still lucky, there is time to lay the right ships.
  27. +1
    23 May 2022 19: 49
    Corruption and decline of US military officials and US defense corporations. No one dares to talk about it, not even screamers like Donald Trump :))
  28. +1
    23 May 2022 21: 47
    Interestingly, the prototype of the Independence class, a civilian ferry manufactured by the same company Austal, has been successfully sailing the seas since 2005. Also a trimaran, also aluminum.

    1. +1
      23 May 2022 23: 28
      Naturally, the idea is correct.
      Summed up the quality of performance.
      1. 0
        23 May 2022 23: 35
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Summed up the quality of performance.

        How could one company make almost identical cases with different workmanship? Specially, or something, screwed up for the warriors?
        1. +1
          23 May 2022 23: 39
          The civilian, apparently, was not driven at speeds of 40 knots.
          Trimaran hulls are very expensive. Therefore, their
          do little. Although the benefits are obvious.

          It is necessary to print cases on 3-D from carbon fiber.
          1. 0
            24 May 2022 00: 01
            Quote: voyaka uh
            The civilian, apparently, was not driven at speeds of 40 knots.

            This ferry gives out 36 knots. Not 40, but more than 15.
    2. 0
      24 May 2022 04: 37
      civil ferry

      So, there, like, speeds and overloads are slightly different
  29. +1
    23 May 2022 23: 27
    These trimarans are the ships of the future.
    This is what surface warships will be like in 50 years.
    High-speed mini-aircraft carriers.
    Speed ​​40+ knots, large landing deck, usable
    for takeoffs and landings of vertical striker aircraft, like the F-35B.
    Three or more aircraft: for reconnaissance and strike operations.

    The first pancake is lumpy. And everyone laughs, of course. wassat
    1. 0
      24 May 2022 00: 13
      Quote: voyaka uh
      These trimarans are the ships of the future.

      I’m wondering how he will deal with stability when holes appear.
    2. 0
      24 May 2022 04: 42
      These trimarans are the ships of the future.

      From the article it turns out - the ships of the past.
      The idea of ​​a multi-hull ship has been around for many thousands of years. While there are few track structures
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. -1
    24 May 2022 09: 29
    Friends, sailors in high positions, I will be the highest admiral, remove the fitters and do not move from production. - or not, then you will be there in civilian clothes, without food. None of the admirals of the cruiser Moscow have forgiven me yet. The boys try am
  32. Two
    0
    24 May 2022 09: 38
    Whatever you call a boat, that's how it will float!
  33. 0
    24 May 2022 20: 37
    Why write off? Hand them over to the grasping lads, otherwise there’s nothing to walk or swim on for a long time, only hydrobikes and scows full of mullet are at hand ..
    1. 0
      25 May 2022 15: 33
      I understand correctly, so that later they ended up in the Russian Federation to obtain general information from their study?)))
  34. 0
    25 May 2022 02: 02
    Their current nuclear submarines are also trash. Only the lazy did not talk about floating coffins-aircraft carriers. The nuclear triad today is slag. In general, the modern army of the US (so far) is an exorbitantly promoted bubble, incapable of successful military operations against a serious and motivated enemy.
  35. The comment was deleted.
  36. 0
    25 May 2022 15: 31
    Not a sailor from the word at all.
    But the article is amazing!
  37. 0
    25 May 2022 20: 20
    Quote: BoA KAA
    Quote: Tatar 174
    manufacturers and the customer are in a hurry faster than profits and getting kickbacks without completely thinking through and not completing what was planned ...

    1.Customer and profit? Well, if only he lobbies the project and a share of the results.
    2. Manufacturers. We received the working documentation in our hands, and then technologists and quality control department! - also, as if nothing to do with it, if they obviously did not close their eyes to the violation of the technical process.
    3. Not quite thinking out (!) And here it is just to the point, as they say: there is an obvious engineering miscalculation! Metal chemists and steelworkers welded something wrong: well, the body should not crack on the wave if the alloy has normal fluidity ... That's why it is called SHIP steel, special, by the way!
    Or maybe they don’t have enough sopromat engineers, or did Petrov and Bashirov put a bullshit in the program (software) of calculations, and now she’s messing with them? It's possible, but unlikely...
    One thing is clear: the engineering service of this company is NOT ICE!!! negative
    The question is: and where did the vaunted engineering ship-lyak Amer school go??? In order to screw up with a SERIES (!) ... You need to try very hard!
    In short, I'm in a trance. wassat
    (To the novel - "grand merci" for the style and ease of presentation. Nothing to say - pleased! good )

    Theoretical and practical hydrodynamics are diametrically opposed things, with a guard at the design stage there was a similar situation. After manufacturing a reduced layout of 20380 and running it in the water gallery, simulating an oncoming flow of water at a speed, at a flow speed of about 15 knots, negative vibrations began to appear in the aft part of the hull, at 18 knots the piezoelectric sensors gave off-scale oscillation values ​​that can lead to cracking and even deformation corps. Rechecking the entire construct of the hull set according to the drawings and documents did not reveal any errors, programmatically - also history, all calculations are correct! The Almazovites went the old proven way: on the same layout they began to change the very shape of the hull with contours, cutting out and adding elements, as a result of which they managed to achieve the initially set parameters for the flow through the hull. But the most interesting thing is that after adjusting the design documentation for new contours, and running in the hydrodynamic programs, the programs constantly cursed at the changes made, and said that with such changes the normal functioning of the zygomatic and aft parts with the transom is impossible !!!
  38. 0
    25 May 2022 20: 27
    Quote: BoA KAA
    Quote: Bobik012
    about material

    So it was only we who could build boats from titanium, damn it. The Yankees are too rich to afford such a luxury! So they are experimenting with duralumin alloys. They are lighter than steel alloys, hence the displacement, speed, and range of the ship. And they don’t want to raise the hull out of the water, as they did on the Bor, pr. 1240, mpk pr. 1141.

    Antares forgot to add, pr133, I went to this
  39. 0
    25 May 2022 21: 27
    [quote the project of littoral ships in itself is nothing more than a giant cut. What is there to hide, in the USA they know how and practice this business, so much so that the whole world is choking with envy.] [/ Quote]
    ... as they say - nothing personal ... just business!
  40. The comment was deleted.
  41. 0
    26 May 2022 21: 05
    Quote from WBond
    [quote the project of littoral ships in itself is nothing more than a giant cut. What is there to hide, in the USA they know how and practice this business, so much so that the whole world chokes on saliva with envy.]

    ... as they say - nothing personal ... just business! [/ Quote]
    Well, I didn’t even cut it, but cut the cover ... After one destroyer, which was described in the project as 2/3 Ticonderoga for 1/3 of the cost of Ticonderoga, almost drowned for a small one, having driven a boat with explosives, a bright idea was born at the mattress - and let the destroyers cover the cheap scows, yeah, the coastal combat zone ... Yes, they just accelerated so that the LCS costs comparable to the Arleigh Burke type, while there are almost fewer weapons than the boats of the Somali pirates. So he also eats money to maintain it on the go like crazy
  42. -1
    6 July 2022 13: 08
    who are we fooling? myself? underfed .... 21 missiles .... and we have an unsuitable BUK on the helipad ???? .... they were already deceiving with the Outskirts .... they washed themselves with blood ... tanks without anti-cumulative grilles ... DPR soldiers in helmets 41 years old!!!! Moscow at the bottom....
    1. 0
      19 July 2022 07: 52
      There is such a thing, but all those who sit taller make plans and make decisions. They are not local balabols, they send soldiers into battle, they only balabol here. By the way, these gratings are of dubious effectiveness, and the Jawas generally hit from above, there are no gratings. And as for these ships, as I read in Amer's magazines, that they were set up purely for cutting, and now they don't know what to do with it. The Navy does not use them.
  43. 0
    19 July 2022 07: 48
    cracks in the hulls of Independence-class ships, due to which aluminum trimarans simply cannot reach speeds of more than 15 knots and go to sea with a wave of more than 2,5 meters or 5 points on the Beaufort scale. The author heard a ringing but did not understand where he was. They cannot develop cruising speed due to problems with water jet turbines, and these turbines cannot operate in cold water (in my opinion, below + 10C), and without the use of turbines, they just have a stroke of 15 knots, which does not even allow these ships walking in a warrant, at least for extras, and this is the main problem - it’s impossible to use them at all, even for the sake of appearance, and therefore everyone is waiting for the eggs to be uninvolved. In general, it was the problems with the turbines, their non-repairability and fierce cost that buried the project, and the cracks in the hull are something new, and if this is the case, then it is, to the load of the finished turbines.