Lessons from Ukraine: how armored vehicles will change after the Russian special operation

309

Source: glav.su

The Old New Thing


The experience of any military conflict is invaluable. The most important thing is to be able to use it in time and find the necessary resources to implement practical conclusions. Sometimes it was necessary to decide on quite serious steps. Recall the birth of the T-34 and KV, based on the experience of pre-war clashes. As it turned out, it was these models that became the most viable, which was confirmed by the experience of the Great Patriotic War.

The key post-war paradigm was the search for a certain balance between the three most controversial characteristics tank - security, firepower and mobility. Simply put, the rejection of the division into medium and heavy tanks.



Actually, they were already ready for this during the war, but there was inertia, as well as difficulties with the restructuring of the military industry. The tanks that emerged from the crucible of the world war were adapted precisely to the conditions of large-scale conflicts of the 30s and 40s. For example, the oncoming battles prevailing in the European theater of operations required a significant increase in the frontal armor of tanks. Naturally, to the detriment of security in all other projections.

In the future, the most significant modernization was the adaptation to the conditions of a nuclear war. This tank progress stopped for several decades. Throughout the second half of the XNUMXth century and the beginning of the current century, exclusively enemy tanks were considered the key targets of tanks. Neither in the USSR nor in the NATO countries did engineers build tanks with an eye to new conditions. Simply because no one really understood these very conditions. All conflicts proceeded according to the principle of "industrial power against the natives with guns."


In the Soviet Union, for example, the experience of the war in Afghanistan was very mediocre. In the famous Bulletin of Armored Vehicles, in connection with the conflict, the issues of increasing mine resistance, conditioning the habitable compartment and the service life of equipment in a hot climate are considered. With light armor, it was a little more effective - an "Afghan" modification of the BMP-2D appeared with enhanced armor and the lack of a waterway option. It was the experience of mountain warfare that forced the designers to provide the main caliber - the 30-mm 2A42 cannon with a high elevation angle. On this, all the improvements are over.

Adopted in 1987, the BMP-3 at a higher level repeated the concept of its predecessors - high firepower, coupled with high mobility, atavistic ability to swim and weak bulletproof protection. The equipment of the airborne troops developed according to a similar scenario. There was no other way - the concept required not only the ability to swim, but air transportability. Moreover, the machines should not only be placed in transport aircraft without problems, but also parachuted.

As a result, we see the apotheosis of this approach - a self-propelled gun for the Airborne Forces "Octopus" with a tank gun and the minimum possible armor. For heavy armored vehicles, the situation is no better. The T-90, which was being developed just during the war in Afghanistan, did not receive any fundamental improvements in comparison with the T-72.

Motorists also did not massively switch to armored bonneted trucks - the most effective means against mine warfare. On the contrary, KamAZ turned out to be the main supplier of the Ministry of Defense for many years. This is because the military-political leadership did not consider the conflict in Afghanistan as typical. Everyone was preparing to fight NATO, and in this case, it was assumed that the rivers of Europe would be swiftly crossed, and massive landings with heavy equipment deep into enemy territory, and oncoming tank battles. And, of course, work in conditions of radioactive contamination.


In fairness, NATO also did not particularly speed up the modernization of armored vehicles. Moreover, they actually overslept the appearance in Russia of the promising Armata platform. Tanks, as the most important ground combat unit, remained on the frontiers of the Cold War with all the pluses and minuses. Only the experience of local conflicts like “industrial power against natives with guns” made the Western military hard to book trucks - this is how the famous MRAPs with high anti-mine and bulletproof resistance appeared.

Later, taking into account the experience of the Chechen wars, a similar technique appeared in Russia. We are talking about "Typhoons" and light "Tigers". However, most of the motorized rifle units are equipped with equipment of the BTR-80 series that is outdated in every sense.

Not "Armata" alone


The experience of almost three months of a special operation in Ukraine showed that not all conceptual decisions in the domestic engineering school turned out to be correct. More precisely - true to a particular conflict, which risks becoming the largest since the Great Patriotic War. First of all, now the desire to make armored vehicles navigable looks like a complete overkill. Have we seen a lot how BMPs or armored personnel carriers overcame water barriers in Ukraine? Engineering departments have always been involved for this.

Water flow is always a difficult compromise between the mass of an armored vehicle and security, with the latter suffering the most. In addition, the machine must be constantly maintained in exemplary technical condition, otherwise the technique is threatened with flooding. The training of personnel must be at the level. For example, if the engines of the BMP-3 stop afloat and the water pumping valve is opened, then the intake water will quickly send the car to the bottom. Every driver in a stressful situation on the water will remember about open valves?


The next atavism, of course, are the requirements for parachute landing of airborne equipment. In Ukraine, this option turned out to be completely unclaimed, but the restrictions in terms of BMD security can play a critical role. The hypothetical BMD-5, given the Ukrainian experience, should give up the ability to swim and parachute. The released mass reserve must be implemented in order to increase security. At the same time, simply loading existing equipment with additional armor, by analogy with the “Afghan” BMP-2D mentioned above, seems to be a temporary solution.

A few extra tons of armor will inevitably reduce the resource of the engine and transmission of armored vehicles. Failures and forced downtime will increase, and with them combat losses. All this is absolutely true for domestic armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, which in Ukraine are forced to perform unusual functions. Instead of delivering fighters to the battlefield, armored personnel carriers suppress the firing points of Ukrainian nationalists in the thick of the battle. Including in the city. The infantry fighting vehicle from a tank fire support vehicle and an infantry transporter under enemy fire turned into an independent combat unit. On video evidence from Ukraine, an infantry fighting vehicle rarely operates in tandem with a tank.

Again, not using my ability to swim at all. And if so, then the car needs to be reformatted into a heavy infantry fighting vehicle in the manner of the existing prototype T-15 Armata. It remains only to wait for the appearance in the troops, only not fragmentary, but massive according to the principle of replacing each BMP-1, BMP-2 and BMP-3 with T-15. Yes, it's expensive, but apparently it's not possible any other way.


Finally, the main players on the battlefield are tanks. The experience of the assault on Mariupol showed the insufficiency of the power of the main caliber of a tank gun. No matter how many experts argue, a 152 mm gun is capable of making much more than a 125 mm gun. Where the tank is forced to make 2-3 shots at a building with entrenched militants, one "howitzer" caliber shell is enough. Needless to say, how important it is for a tank to quickly leave the zone of return fire.

In the 80s and 90s, tank prototypes with a 152mm cannon were rejected for many reasons. Among them are the small amount of portable ammunition, issues with the use of already manufactured tank ammunition, as well as the danger of unleashing an arms race with Western tanks. The appearance of a 152-mm argument in a domestic tank automatically leveled all the advantage of NATO equipment in armor and firepower. They would come up with their own solution in response, and a new round of confrontation would become inevitable.

Everyone was satisfied with the existing status quo, and we have the Armata with the same gun. Mariupol showed that an assault tank, a kind of analogue of a heavy tank from the Second World War, would be an excellent "demilitarizer" of the nationalists who had settled in the buildings. Thermal imagers have become an important bonus for armored vehicles operating in urban areas. According to the participants in the events, it is the thermal imaging guidance channel that will make it possible to more accurately and with less losses destroy militants behind the walls of houses.

Unfortunately, this equipment is not found on all domestic equipment. This category also includes the lack of active protection systems in combat tanks, although domestic engineers stood at the origins of this defensive complex. High vulnerability to small arms weapons complexes raises questions of use in the city, but on the march, armored vehicles must be protected from guided missiles from all angles. The sad experience of Ukraine is proof of this.

One can argue for a long time to what extent the Russian army was ready for the realities of the special operation. The main thing is that the relevant conclusions be made on time, and the experience earned with sweat and blood would be quickly implemented in the latest domestic developments.
309 comments
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  1. +63
    12 May 2022 04: 38
    . Lessons from Ukraine: how armored vehicles will change after the Russian special operation

    No way. An example of this is the advertised Armata - it is in parades, but it is not in the war. The old Soviet T-72 in the B3 modification is fighting.
    1. -19
      12 May 2022 08: 02
      All of the above - against 10av for 100 vi.
      Until 2030, we need to revise our current and prospects, bring to life a new look (as Serdyukov correctly said) - a military command with separate air defense and land, all to control Eurasia.
      See the results of the WWII battleships nikki2, but in Poland there were not enough shells.
      1. 0
        13 May 2022 11: 46
        Quote: antivirus
        Until 2030, we need to revise our current and prospects, bring to life a new look (as Serdyukov correctly said) - a military command with separate air defense and land, all to control Eurasia.

        Are you going to control Eurasia? lol
    2. -24
      12 May 2022 08: 33
      Quote: Stas157
      An example of this is the advertised Armata - it is in parades, but it is not in the war.

      Who will lay out trump cards against the T-64?
      1. +17
        12 May 2022 10: 00
        Quote: figvam
        Quote: Stas157
        An example of this is the advertised Armata - it is in parades, but it is not in the war.

        Who will lay out trump cards against the T-64?

        Can you send without tanks to save armored vehicles, do women still give birth like this? wassat
        1. +24
          12 May 2022 10: 53
          They don't give birth. Here, except to build clone factories, if we want to save armored vehicles. The days of high birth rates are long gone and will never return. Well, unless some... something very bad happens.
      2. +5
        14 May 2022 09: 11
        Quote: figvam
        Who will lay out trump cards against the T-64?

        Unfortunately, the T-64 is not the extreme point of confrontation with the West. With such a promotion of the swara, to the world, then the T-55 will come in handy. Now is the time of the victorious, thieves' godfather. The industry is (in many ways) ruined and bit by bit, trying to recover. Many of our Wishlist are broken against the harsh reality. Yes, I would like to have assault tanks with 152mm. At least as a strategic reserve, for urban battles. And active protection, and improved armor equipment for infantry fighting vehicles, but most likely we will fight on what we have time to restore or reactivate. At least until the nuclear apocalypse... And after that, as they say, the stick will be the survivors' strategic weapon.
    3. +21
      12 May 2022 11: 34
      The old Soviet T-72 in the B3 modification is fighting.

      At the beginning of the NWO, there were a lot of photos and videos from the T-72B3 and T-80BVM, and now T-72B from "Contact-1" are increasingly coming across
      1. -3
        13 May 2022 03: 19
        It's just that tanks of the LDNR corps began to be removed more often, but they don't have fashionable tanks.
        By the way, it is mainly the assault infantry of the corps of the republics and the fighters of Ramzan who are fighting now. Yes, recently the "musicians" were exposed.
        Yes, and the fighting is now going on mainly in the Donbass.
        1. +5
          13 May 2022 18: 51
          In one TV report, they showed Donbass reservists, who, during the 3rd month of the war, were just receiving bulletproof vests and modern helmets instead of wartime helmets. At the same time, they basically remained silent on the questions of the correspondent.
          1. +2
            13 May 2022 23: 50
            Quote: Alexey Lantukh
            In one TV report, they showed Donbass reservists, who were just receiving body armor during the 3rd month of the war

            Yes Well, at least after 3 months received. God forbid that not only new helmets are given, but also all the necessary equipment.
            Quote: Alexey Lantukh
            . At the same time, they basically remained silent on the questions of the correspondent.

            And what to answer?
            Cursing at the cameras is not good, and they understand everything - they are not children. These "iron helmets" took out a lot.
      2. 0
        14 May 2022 00: 20
        But I saw a video where our captured T-80BVMs are intact, not a scratch on the Ukrainians.
        1. +1
          14 May 2022 05: 02
          Perhaps you saw not captured, but Ukrainian T-80s? They had them, only diesel ones. Russian T-80s were produced by a tank factory in Omsk, in the Arctic version. In the North, they are very good, but why such a T-80 in Ukraine?
    4. -2
      12 May 2022 12: 50
      what’s the point of sending her to the front? she won’t change anything there from the word at all
      1. +6
        12 May 2022 13: 10
        Quote: Barberry25
        what’s the point of sending her to the front? she won’t change anything there from the word at all

        Combat testing of equipment at least, the ability to make changes even before mass production
        1. -2
          12 May 2022 13: 31
          not in this case, since he won’t show anything new at all - you can just as well be driven to the training ground with the crew for a month, but the possible loss of even one tank will cost many billions of dollars
        2. +1
          12 May 2022 17: 49
          Quote: BlackMokona
          Quote: Barberry25
          what’s the point of sending her to the front? she won’t change anything there from the word at all

          Combat testing of equipment at least, the ability to make changes even before mass production

          For Almaty, the "native" engine is not ready, according to rumors.
      2. +6
        12 May 2022 13: 29
        Quote: Barberry25
        what’s the point of sending her to the front? she won’t change anything there from the word in general

        What is a useless car anyway? I don't agree with you. The Armata is supposed to be safer for the crew. But that's not an argument for you, is it?
        1. 0
          12 May 2022 13: 35
          why, more than effective, but in the conditions of the database of Ukraine, it will not have greater superiority over the conditional t-72b3
    5. MMX
      +5
      12 May 2022 19: 34
      Quote: Stas157
      . Lessons from Ukraine: how armored vehicles will change after the Russian special operation

      No way. An example of this is the advertised Armata - it is in parades, but it is not in the war. The old Soviet T-72 in the B3 modification is fighting.


      That is, all those years that Soviet / Russian tanks threw towers up did not bother anyone? Like, there are flaws, but a little "finish with a file" and everything will be fine. Then why should CBO somehow influence such a concept?
      You correctly noticed the difference between the front Armata and the military T-72.
      1. +3
        14 May 2022 05: 42
        "Armata" was designed for another war, the network-centric war of machines. This is not a single tank that adapts to other applications, such as self-propelled guns or engineering vehicles, it was immediately designed as a unified platform for various applications. T-14 - tank, T-15 - BMP, T-16 - engineering vehicle. T-17 - most likely, "Terminator". The "Military Acceptance" showed several armed wheeled and tracked cyber vehicles (with AI), of various sizes and purposes, that can interact and be controlled by "Armata", T-14 or T-15. The T-14 can also be unmanned.
    6. -1
      15 May 2022 12: 30
      Did you notice that this year, at the Victory Parade, they didn’t even focus on the Arbat. Even the operators only showed the armature a couple of times. I checked, trucks with uranium robots showed 2 times more time than armata.
    7. 0
      18 July 2022 10: 03
      Read the Internet .. look at the photo .. for a long time the T-62 coalition breakthrough tank .. at least in the south .. the Mosin model 1891 rifle is also used .. Soon the T-34 will be adjusted ... and flintlocks will get ... And you are talking about the T-72 ..
  2. +28
    12 May 2022 04: 45
    I think that experience is being studied. But, it seems to me, there is no need to rush, and change absolutely all the equipment for a more suitable one based on the results of the battles in Ukraine. Yes, in this conflict it was not necessary to parachute BMD from aircraft, but such a need may arise in the future. Overcoming water barriers is also a delicate matter: no one has canceled the situation in which it is not possible to attract engineering units to overcome water barriers. It seems to me that the author of the article himself argues with his idea that, based on the conclusions of any specific conflict, it is impossible to unconditionally conclude that one or another version of security / armament / additional options for military equipment is necessary.
    1. +21
      12 May 2022 05: 43
      As an option, already adopted in NAT, the division into "light" and "heavy" brigades .. Although, knowing that they are sent into battle not by the reasonableness of the use, but by finding the unit at this point of deployment, a way out is possible in the use of mounted DZ kits and KAZ in the presence of reserves of the machine in terms of power and carrying capacity.
      1. +9
        12 May 2022 17: 08
        As for heavy and not very heavy brigades ... actually, in the case of heavy positional battles, probably the old divisions tested by world wars, tank and motorized rifle, would be much more powerful and more convenient. And then soon we will take cities with companies and platoons
        1. 0
          22 May 2022 00: 45
          Heavy breakthrough shelves. shock armies
    2. +17
      12 May 2022 06: 25
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      no need to rush

      That's right!
      For obvious reasons, we cannot observe the forcing of rivers in detail, like many things in Ukraine. But it is known that pontoon crossings were amazed, they are necessary to supply large masses of troops, and to capture bridgeheads where you need the ability to swim, and OPVT, AND PTSs. And, of course, a trained, experienced and fired l / s, otherwise there is nothing to argue.
      But the idea of ​​the need to have both MBTs and heavy (assault) tanks and infantry fighting vehicles is correct.
      Those. we come to the conclusion as old as the world: tanks and infantry fighting vehicles are important, different tanks are needed.
      1. +14
        12 May 2022 17: 12
        Floating equipment is important in reconnaissance units, and is necessary when crossing water barriers as part of forward detachments, to capture bridgeheads ... but from the experience of the Great Patriotic War, we know that in the absence of clear planning and skillful command, floating equipment is simply mediocrely burned in battles, plugging problem areas, how it happened with the amphibious tanks of the Red Army in 1941
        1. +8
          13 May 2022 09: 00
          Quote: NNikolaich
          Floating equipment is important in reconnaissance units, and is necessary when crossing water barriers as part of forward detachments, to capture bridgeheads ...

          Well, the reality of today, it is simply impossible to capture bridgeheads without the support of heavy equipment, and paper floating equipment is destroyed at once, there are plenty of manual weapons, all reconnaissance on drones, including light quadrocopters. This begs the question, what the hell is all this? Isn't the price of an option too expensive, which is not needed at all
          1. +7
            13 May 2022 09: 53
            It can be seen in the management that they are warming their place, and not military generals. For them, nothing needs to be changed, but the main thing is to think. They cannot determine the location of the BMPT and its use, equipment near buildings, it is easiest to destroy with loitering ammunition. (It brings the least collateral damage to others). Has anyone seen their use in Mariupol, or somewhere else in this case? The "tops" are visible and they cannot find a place to use them. I think even after this special operation, no one will draw conclusions from this. Now people come to power not to serve, but to weld.
            1. +1
              15 May 2022 07: 09
              There is truth in your words! The experience of World War II shows that only in the crucible of war, in fire and smoke, is the elite of future commanders and military leaders forged. They will come to replace the parquet generals. In any case, I would like to hope so!
              1. +1
                22 May 2022 00: 49
                Of course, young generals came to the General Staff, remember, I won’t tell you a year .. And they were immediately returned to the troops. When the rotation was introduced. Almost everyone quit. My colleague was there, only he received a major general. You have been in the garrisons for 20 years, from war to war, and the Arbat Military District is a family estate and you are not there
          2. +2
            13 May 2022 10: 21
            Ordinary tanks and planes with helicopters are also no longer needed? They are also easily affected by manual and other means.
            1. +1
              14 May 2022 08: 34
              Quote: NNikolaich
              Ordinary tanks and planes with helicopters are also no longer needed? They are also easily affected by manual and other means.

              how easy? :) there were times when our tanks withstood five or more hits from an RPG with an airplane, it’s also not so simple. In general, nothing works individually, efficiency is achieved by a set of means.
      2. +2
        12 May 2022 17: 15
        Pontoon crossings are vulnerable if the enemy is not thrown back at least some minimum distance from the line of contact of troops, otherwise they can be easily shot by howitzer artillery and MLRS
        1. 0
          14 May 2022 08: 46
          Quote: NNikolaich
          Pontoon crossings are vulnerable

          and how vulnerable the military equipment that doesn’t need pontoons ... what’s the point in a combat vehicle that can be stopped even with a large-caliber rifle, machine gun, and hand-held anti-tank weapons will not leave any chance at all. In general, this is how our columns mowed down ...
          1. 0
            14 May 2022 17: 45
            Floating equipment will not accumulate 49 pieces in front of the destroyed pontoon, but will swim 30 meters and support the fighters, who at this time have to attack with a pawn without any support, dragging small arms, grenade launchers, ammunition, etc., and evacuate the wounded on themselves
            1. +2
              15 May 2022 09: 20
              Only practice refutes this beautiful theory. Without tanks today with such saturation with anti-tank weapons, all these amphibians that do not have serious fire power become just easy targets. Which proves the course of events of the special operation. Yes, it may be that when attacking on a wide front and with significant forces, this can lead to the successful development of the offensive, but here in the Donbass with such a density of troops along a limited front and with such a number of reconnaissance drones, this is not possible.
    3. +3
      12 May 2022 06: 55
      I think it's better to remove tank units altogether, and make motorized rifle units like tank units now. Do as the author suggests. And create light units with equipment that can swim across rivers. Or make these "light" units from the Airborne Forces and the Marine Corps. Ordinary motorized rifles will be like "heavy", and the Airborne Forces and MPs will be like "light" units.
      Plus, they are needed for assault units of the BMPT, as a means of strengthening and covering tanks. Instead of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles.
      1. +14
        12 May 2022 09: 06
        Ordinary motorized rifles will be like "heavy", and the Airborne Forces and MPs will be like "light" units.

        In the Armed Forces of Ukraine they did just like the Americans, highly mobile units and formations. Instead of airborne, they became airmobile, i.e. with the possibility of being transferred by transport aircraft without landing, and parachutes were left only to special forces and special forces.
      2. +1
        12 May 2022 17: 21
        It is important to quickly "reformat" the assault groups that are clearing the area into military columns for a quick dash across relatively free territory and back into assault groups if there are strongholds. Do not fight like in the First World War. Recall the success of the German troops in the summer of 41, the infiltration between our troops if there is no our resistance and the rapid deployment in attacking formations, in the presence of resistance. Communication with aviation and artillery. Rapid response to changing circumstances
    4. AUL
      +26
      12 May 2022 09: 18
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      I think that experience is being studied. But it seems to me that there is no need to rush, and change absolutely all the equipment to a more suitable one based on the results of the battles in Ukraine.
      After Afghanistan they were in no hurry, after Chechnya they were not in a hurry, so where to rush after Ukraine? Let's wait some more...
      1. 0
        13 May 2022 16: 49
        You can not change all the equipment, abandoning well-proven samples. It is impossible, following the results of a single military operation, to change everything that has been developed. We must not change, but add. We recall the experience of the Great Patriotic War. Even before the war, they tried to write off the cavalry: the tanks would be replaced. As a result, the cavalry units of the Red Army fought, and successfully, until the end of the war. If a new tactic appeared during the operation, then it cannot be thoughtlessly elevated to the canon, and only act according to this scheme. How many combat situations, so many tactics. Who argues - new, successful - it is necessary to introduce. But not thoughtlessly, but carefully, and only where it brings success.
    5. +22
      12 May 2022 11: 59
      Yes, in this conflict it was not necessary to parachute BMD from aircraft, but such a need may arise in the future.

      1. So far, in no real conflict, equipment has not been parachuted.
      2. The number of landing equipment should be tied to the possibilities of their transfer by military transport aviation. The same applies to the marines, the number of which should be tied to the capabilities of the landing ships.
      Other conclusions on SBO
      3. It is necessary to create and develop elite units in the ground forces. Call them beautifully: "jaegers" or "grenadiers".
      4. Floating equipment is needed, but in limited quantities. First of all, to develop success and capture bridgeheads after breaking through the enemy's defenses. But for a breakthrough, heavy infantry fighting vehicles with reliable protection are needed. The main thing to understand is that in a battle with an equal enemy, light armored vehicles do not live long without the support of tanks, but tanks cannot live separately without the support of infantry.
      5. The widespread installation of KAZ on tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. Moreover, KAZ is obliged to intercept "roof-breakers".
      6. The introduction of small reconnaissance UAVs, first at the company level, and then at the platoon level.
      7. The introduction of thermal imagers, at least one "tepak" per department.
      8. Equipping all self-propelled artillery units with UAV spotters and counter-battery radars.
      8. Replacement of all towed guns with self-propelled guns. An exception can only be made for NONA-K, which is given to air assault units when landing by helicopters.
      1. +2
        12 May 2022 13: 08
        5. The widespread installation of KAZ on tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

        Very expensive. Significantly cheaper installation of "Shtora" type complexes, with the same effectiveness against ATGMs (including those attacking from above)

        Moreover, KAZ is obliged to intercept "roof-breakers".

        Such characteristics have been declared so far only for one KAZ, the Ukrainian "Barrier". The Armed Forces of Ukraine are not in service, i.e., the characteristics of the actual use have not been confirmed.

        8. Replacement of all towed guns with self-propelled guns.

        It is also very expensive, and as a result, there will be few self-propelled guns in service. For those towed, mobility is acceptable for NWO, for low-intensity conflicts it is also sufficient.

        For the rest, I fully agree.
        1. +10
          12 May 2022 13: 45
          Significantly cheaper installation of "Shtora" type complexes, with the same effectiveness against ATGMs (including those attacking from above)

          It remains only to hope that the enemy will agree to use only semi-active laser systems. And refuse optoelectronic, inertial, etc.
          1. +2
            12 May 2022 16: 12
            "Shtora-1" - this is the complex of optoelectronic suppression. Perhaps by optoelectronic you meant radio guidance systems.
            I didn’t quite understand how it is possible to make an ATGM with an inertial guidance system, and how is inertial guidance used against moving targets?
            1. +2
              12 May 2022 16: 32
              "Shtora-1" - this is the complex of optoelectronic suppression.

              It remains to figure out what is hidden behind this phrase, in relation to this complex))
              Perhaps by optoelectronic you meant radio guidance systems.

              No, I did not mean radio guidance (you can consider radio guidance as "etc." in my phrase in the previous comment.
              I meant systems with photoelectric matrices for heat, television or combined detection.
              I didn’t quite understand how to make an ATGM with an inertial guidance system

              I didn't mean ATGMs. It is not the only PTS in Ukraine, especially given the urban nature of hostilities.
              1. +1
                13 May 2022 08: 32
                I meant systems with photoelectric matrices for heat, television or combined detection.
                well, as if the Curtain was created just against such ones, smoke interference is used against laser ones, and against IR "eyes" that illuminate and knock down guidance.
                1. 0
                  13 May 2022 08: 39
                  well, as if the Curtain was created just against such

                  As if
                  systems with photoelectric matrices for thermal, tele- or combined detection

                  passive.
                  Therefore, Shtora simply has nothing to react to - there is no incoming radiation.
            2. +5
              13 May 2022 16: 25
              So the General Staff did not understand. And now NLAW with an inertial system has become a big problem. And protection against them is only KAZ working in the upper funnel. And in our country, they didn’t even manage to equip the equipment with ordinary KAZ.

              For an operation like the current one, KAZ of circular protection in the amount of 5000 units were needed. It is necessary to protect not only tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. All armored personnel carriers, vehicles carrying personnel, launchers if possible, especially transport-loading vehicles, as well as all TOS.

              Tens of thousands of drones such as SPIKE or Lancet were needed for urban battles. So many lives would be saved, not to mention the buildings. The meager charge of the light Lancet does not lead to destruction comparable to 2-3 152 mm tank shots.

              Already these two moments would be enough for a fundamentally more successful course of the operation.
              1. 0
                25 June 2022 20: 14
                against nlav magnetic emitters how to try on trawls, you need to pick up a wave
        2. +8
          12 May 2022 14: 17
          Quote: Dmitry Chelyabinsk
          It is also very expensive, and as a result, there will be few self-propelled guns in service. For those towed, mobility is acceptable for NWO, for low-intensity conflicts it is also sufficient.

          No one has canceled the possibility of installation on a wheeled off-road chassis. There is already a coalition on the KAMAZ chassis. In this regard, the old project battery Bereg sees well. A highly mobile battery of 130mm guns with a command and radar vehicle. Everything is put on the Minsk chassis. Tests in the early 90s showed high efficiency. In the current realities, there is a significant minus in terms of the combat range of 23 km. If you transfer this concept to the COALITION and attach a reconnaissance drone and a fire spotter here, you get an excellent battery.
          1. +5
            12 May 2022 16: 43
            I also wanted to write about it. There were good articles on this issue on VO in 2014 in two parts called "The Changing World of Artillery".
        3. +5
          12 May 2022 14: 38
          Very expensive. Significantly cheaper installation of "Shtora" type complexes, with the same effectiveness against ATGMs (including those attacking from above)

          Is it not expensive to lose a tank for many millions from an RPG?
          There is an "Arena-M", which declares the possibility of fighting "roof-breakers"
          With Shtora, the big question is that its use in the NWO has not been noticed. in general, the use of smoke grenade launchers, even when an ATGM attack was detected by the armored vehicle crew, was not noticed. Most likely, the crews do not have practical skills in using smoke grenade launchers.
          In addition, the "Shtora" works only with laser radiation, therefore, it does not save from RPGs, NLAW, Javelins and is extremely limited from ATGMs with LLSN ("Skif", "Stugna", "Korsar", "Kornet", "Whirlwind" etc.)
          1. -2
            12 May 2022 16: 36
            Is it not expensive to lose a tank for many millions from an RPG?

            Destroying a tank from an RPG is so difficult that equipping all tanks with KAZs will be much more expensive than all the losses from RPGs. In Grozny 1994-1995, it seems, was the last successful experience of the mass use of RPGs against tanks, with the coincidence of fairly specific conditions.

            In addition, "Shtora" works only with laser radiation.

            It surprises me too, is it really impossible to make radio-tight aerosols.
            1. -5
              13 May 2022 02: 27
              "Destroying a tank from an RPG is so difficult" ///
              ---
              NLAW has proven to be very easy.
              New generation grenade launcher "shot and forget"
              calculating the trajectory of a grenade.
              Which explodes exactly above the tower.
              From it, near Kharkov, the latest modifications of the T-90 and T-80 were blown up with all the bells and whistles of protection.
              1. +2
                13 May 2022 11: 58
                What did you prove? The SVO showed that for all the saturation of the APU with anti-tank systems of various modifications: from Panzerfouts 3 to Javelins, they did not lead to the loss of hundreds of tanks by the RF Armed Forces. Even when hit, Russian tanks in 80% of cases left on their own.
                Quote: voyaka uh
                From it, near Kharkov, the latest modifications of the T-90 and T-80 were blown up with all the bells and whistles of protection.

                There are no non-piercing tanks. I saw about the T-80BVM near Kharkov, and the T-90 is the last well, profit here. And to attribute the modernization of the T-80BVM to the latest mega-modernizations is the same as doing a facelift to the VAZ classic and calling it an automobile breakthrough in the auto industry. The T-80BVM is exactly the same compromise as the T-72B3-2016. So far, there is not a single confirmation of the destruction of the T-90M Breakthrough 3. So do not whistle heresy.
                Yes, and it’s stanno to read from you about the beginning of the NWO and the loss of armored vehicles, where our columns went on a relaxed basis.
                1. 0
                  21 May 2022 10: 20
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  So far, there is not a single confirmation of the destruction of the T-90M
                  Beautiful tank
          2. -2
            13 May 2022 08: 33
            The curtain is just against the Javelins. And here the NLAV is generally an RPG, not an ATGM.
            1. +2
              13 May 2022 18: 38
              The problem is that in order to apply the curtain, you need to detect an attack, in the case of a javelin, this is very difficult, because. not only does the rocket not radiate anything, it also maneuvers so that you don’t understand where it is exactly aimed.
        4. +4
          12 May 2022 17: 13
          Quote: Dmitry Chelyabinsk
          8. Replacement of all towed guns with self-propelled guns.

          It is also very expensive, and as a result, there will be few self-propelled guns in service. For those towed, mobility is acceptable for NWO, for low-intensity conflicts it is also sufficient.

          You can at least take the French "Caesar" on the chassis of a truck as a model.
        5. 0
          8 June 2022 14: 36
          Expensive. But the life of the crew and the cost of the tank are even more expensive! The curtain is the last century, modern armored vehicles against modern ATGMs of the Javelin type must have very strong circular armor and, without fail, KAZ.

          How many losses we suffered from enemy anti-tank systems due to weak armor and active protection, are you really so bloodthirsty that this is not enough for you?
      2. -3
        12 May 2022 14: 12
        Quote: Cympak
        1. So far, in no real conflict, equipment has not been parachuted.

        And yet we need light armored vehicles with the possibility of parachute landing. The Airborne Forces should be able to land on an unprepared site and immediately fight not only infantry but also equipment. And if necessary, quickly change the location. And all this will take place at a distance from the main parts with pontoon parks. Another thing is that BMD should have a complementary role, and not the main one.
        1. +2
          12 May 2022 14: 31
          And yet we need light armored vehicles with the possibility of parachute landing.

          I completely agree with you. The question is the required amount of airborne equipment and the cost of its production
      3. +4
        12 May 2022 19: 25
        I read your Wishlist and understand that Russia needed to join NATO 30 years ago in order to implement all this.
      4. -3
        13 May 2022 02: 22
        "5. The widespread installation of KAZ on tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. Moreover, KAZ is obliged to intercept" roof-breakers. "///
        ----
        good
        Quite right. And this will be the main thing in the new
        or upgraded tanks.
    6. +7
      12 May 2022 13: 54
      the situation in which it is not possible to attract engineering units to overcome the water barrier has not been canceled

      Well, you can’t do without engineering units when forcing. The question is only in the tasks performed by them. But forcing afloat requires oh so much time in preparation. As in the preparation of the equipment itself, and the water barrier. Almost as much as building a pontoon bridge. Depending on the width of the water barrier of course. Swimming is a very complex thing. It is not always possible due to the speed of the current, waves, and the state of the coast. Even in small currents the cars have drift downstream. So the driver's skill in swimming must be very good. Yes, and for some reason everyone forgets that a heavy infantry fighting vehicle can easily overcome a water barrier under water, like a tank. Moreover, the preparation of the crossing under water requires no more measures than the crossing afloat.
      So light floating equipment, in my opinion, should be in reconnaissance units, airborne forces and marines.
      1. +3
        12 May 2022 14: 23
        Nevertheless, in order to flood the panton bridge to the engineers, a foothold is needed. This axiom has been unshakable since the Second World War. Infantry on boats and boats force a water barrier. But how much heavy weapons she will take with her. Floating infantry fighting vehicles / BMDs are needed. But for such a highly specialized task. I would even combine these two machines. I would give the role of the BMP to heavy, well-armored vehicles with KAZ.
        1. +5
          12 May 2022 14: 29
          Have you heard of the concept of vertical reach?
          Without it, in modern conditions, you cannot capture a single bridgehead by floating on an infantry fighting vehicle. Only in a combined way. But only vertical, without swimming completely.
          That is why NATO does not have floating equipment.
          1. +5
            12 May 2022 16: 04
            Heard. I watch Gostomel is not enough for you. And a dozen more turntables shaken from MANPADS in the NWO.
            Remind you how ours rushed through Chernobyl in order to be in time for the landing?! Otherwise, another two days and the dill would have killed the guys there by pulling up heavy equipment. Although the MTR of the Russian Federation took with them a dofiga of heavy weapons, as much as they could - they dragged away so much.
            No dear. It is the waterfowl amphibious armored vehicles that are capable of providing the same support for the landing on the bridgehead.
            By the way: in the NATO advertised by you, the landing of the same Hamers with heavy machine guns and anti-tank systems is being worked out to the fullest. And they will not develop anything more serious. The concept of their war is that scorched field. Before the advanced units reach the water barrier, the Air Force will push everything 50-70 km ahead. Including field air defense facilities. And I very much doubt that along the water barrier, the "Viet Cong - suicides" will land in anticipation of the enemy's helicopter landing, being already actually cut off from their main parts.
            1. +5
              12 May 2022 16: 25
              Remind you how ours rushed through Chernobyl in order to be in time for the landing?! Otherwise, another two days and the dill would have killed the guys there by pulling up heavy equipment. Although the MTR of the Russian Federation took with them a dofiga of heavy weapons, as much as they could - they dragged away so much.

              So that’s why there was a landing in Gostomel, so that ours from Belarus would normally pass to Kyiv, more calmly set up pontoon crossings, that’s exactly what happened there, while our paratroopers distracted and fettered the forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, therefore vertical coverage is useful in terms of supporting the advancing troops, while overcoming water barriers, NATO members practice this, but waterfowl equipment has not yet shown itself, so I agree with the Old Tanker (Sergey)!
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +4
              13 May 2022 05: 29
              Quote: PROXOR
              Remind you how ours rushed through Chernobyl in order to be in time for the landing?!

              But the landing was by helicopter. And when the paratroopers arrived in time on their BMD-hah, how much did they (BMD-hee) show resistance to enemy fire?
              Floating equipment is needed in the troops, but not as the only possible one, but as armored vehicles of reconnaissance and vanguard units. Overcoming a water barrier on the move is worth a lot to capture a bridgehead, but when a ferry crossing is established, the waterfowl capabilities of the rest of the BMPs no longer matter. But their armor and special protection, the power of weapons become much more important.
              Hence the conclusion - waterfowl in the SV Armed Forces of the Russian Federation should be about 25%, the rest - heavier and more protected infantry fighting vehicles. And since in our troops all infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers are waterfowl, the emphasis in the future should be on more protected equipment.
              And in the Airborne Forces too. Airborne infantry fighting vehicles are enough to have 25% of the total fleet. The rest will still be transferred by landing, so it is advisable to arm the rest with more protected BMPs (not BMDs). And the BMP-3 is quite good for this role. And if you make a version of the BMP-3 with enhanced armor? But not floating? How is the main type of BMP?
              The price will not change much, but the survival rate in battle will increase significantly.

              In addition, the tank proposed by the author with 152 mm dropped out of the discussion. tool .
              Indeed, the battles in Mariupol and the assault on the cities (etc., etc.) of the Donbass showed that the power of 125 mm. a tank gun is not always enough. I wrote about this for several years, gave examples of the need for such an assault tank on the "Armata" chassis. Moreover, on the basis of not the T-14, but the T-15 - it is in this case that you can get a more voluminous and at the same time protected fighting compartment and therefore have sufficient ammunition (the place and weight of the 152 mm ammunition will take much more. And if it is an assault a tank for this type of battle, then its gun can be of low ballistics, which will remove a number of design problems.
              And these battles also showed and SHOW that BMPTs are very needed on the battlefield.
              By the way, WHERE ARE THEY?
              They were in great demand in Mariupol.
              And during the assault on fortified areas in the Donbass, they are also very much in demand.
              At the headquarters, were they looking for a place in battle formations?
              The headquarters can be congratulated - the battle formations have found a place for them. Here are just no cars in the orders.
              And there are still MANY more fights like this.

              And today we simply have nothing to land troops by parachute - the existing Il-76 fleet is extremely insufficient for this, and no one will risk such valuable aircraft for the sake of spectacular adventures. To quickly transfer through the air, this is one thing, but to expose yourself to anti-aircraft guns and enemy aircraft ... No, it’s better to save the BTA for more important and useful things.
              And if so, then 25% of the airborne equipment for the Airborne Forces is behind the eyes. The rest is high-quality and well-protected infantry fighting vehicles.
              In Afghanistan, by the way, the landing on the BMP fought.
              Although it was introduced just on the BMD.
              1. -4
                13 May 2022 06: 21
                And today we simply have nothing to land troops by parachute - the existing Il-76 fleet is extremely insufficient for this, and no one will risk such valuable aircraft for the sake of spectacular adventures.

                You feel sorry for the plane, but don't you feel sorry for 130 people?
                1. +1
                  13 May 2022 22: 07
                  Quote: Konnick
                  and 130 people do not mind?

                  Of course, it's a pity, because this type of landing was called ADVENTURE.
                  If you really need to land troops in the near or operational rear, then it is better to do this by helicopters, with good cover and at extremely low altitude.
                  And let the VTA be engaged in the operational transfer of troops to remote theaters of operations, supplying remote groups and other useful things.
                  You just look WHAT flour Ulyanovsk AZ writhe with the production of Il-76MD90A !! For 10 (TEN !!!) years, SERIAL production of an aircraft so necessary in the troops has not been established! And the old boards are knocking out a resource and waiting for replacement and replenishment ... Will they wait?
                  With such leadership?
                  So it's a pity for people, and equipment ... and nerves.
              2. 0
                13 May 2022 11: 34
                Quote: bayard
                But the landing was by helicopter. And when the paratroopers arrived in time on their BMD-hah, how much did they (BMD-hee) show resistance to enemy fire?
                Floating equipment is needed in the troops, but not as the only possible one, but as armored vehicles of reconnaissance and vanguard units. Overcoming a water barrier on the move is worth a lot to capture a bridgehead, but when a ferry crossing is established, the waterfowl capabilities of the rest of the BMPs no longer matter. But their armor and special protection, the power of weapons become much more important.
                Hence the conclusion - waterfowl in the SV Armed Forces of the Russian Federation should be about 25%, the rest - heavier and more protected infantry fighting vehicles. And since in our troops all infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers are waterfowl, the emphasis in the future should be on more protected equipment.
                And in the Airborne Forces too. Airborne infantry fighting vehicles are enough to have 25% of the total fleet. The rest will still be transferred by landing, so it is advisable to arm the rest with more protected BMPs (not BMDs). And the BMP-3 is quite good for this role. And if you make a version of the BMP-3 with enhanced armor? But not floating? How is the main type of BMP?
                The price will not change much, but the survival rate in battle will increase significantly.

                You apparently read only my last answer. If you scroll above, you would read the following:
                Quote: PROXOR
                Nevertheless, in order to flood the panton bridge to the engineers, a foothold is needed. This axiom has been unshakable since the Second World War. Infantry on boats and boats force a water barrier. But how much heavy weapons she will take with her. Floating infantry fighting vehicles / BMDs are needed. But for such a highly specialized task. I would even combine these two machines. I would give the role of the BMP to heavy, well-armored vehicles with KAZ.

                That's how I write. Advanced vanguard units should have such light waterfowl airborne equipment. As I wrote, you generally need to make a single machine.
                Ground units need heavy infantry fighting vehicles with dynamic protection and KAZ.
                If we really develop the topic, then this is the T-72/90 chassis with a front-engine layout, with the AU-200 combat module (ammunition should include high-explosive rounds with remote detonation) Cornet) .... and well, with the rear ramp. Such an infantry fighting vehicle will save the landing force, and provide fire cover even in the city, even in the field. Well, if, for the AU-220, one of the AFAR canvases is made on the same axis as the barrel, then it is possible to hit the UAV using the same high-explosive shots with remote detonation.
                1. +1
                  13 May 2022 22: 47
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  You apparently read only my last answer. If you scroll above, you would read the following:

                  Yes, I read your entire post, consider it support for your opinion.
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  Ground units need heavy infantry fighting vehicles with dynamic protection and KAZ.
                  If we really develop the topic, then this is the T-72/90 chassis with a front-engine layout, with the AU-200 combat module (ammunition should include high-explosive rounds with remote detonation) Cornet)..

                  what Hmm ... So it’s already that - ready, only for the basis of the chassis from the T-80, but with an extended seven-roller base, and the engine in front, and the ramp in the back, and even the AU-220 combat module. T-15 "Armata" is called.
                  It’s good for everyone, it’s a pity it’s expensive (more expensive than any tank), and it’s still raw. There will not be many of these in the troops.
                  But if we take the modernized version of the BMP-3M "Dragoon" as a basis fellow , which is also waterfowl, and add armor protection (in the NON-FLOWING version) to it for a couple of tons, and side screens from the "Kurganets" (and this is just provided for in the basic version), then what could be better?
                  On such a base, a light tank can also be sculpted (and not on the basis of the BMD-4) - with decent protection, 125 mm. a tool and even (if you really need it) - a waterfowl. And weighing no more than 21 tons.
                  Why is he needed?
                  And for example, for airborne landing. One Il-76MD90A will be able to take 2 of these light tanks at a time + a supply of ammo and fuel for them.
                  Their armor protection allows you to install dynamic protection, and the security of the side is such that it holds 30 mm. the projectile (not to mention the forehead), the ceramic side holds the cumulative jet, and if (but necessary) KAZ is installed, then its security will almost (except for the "scrap") correspond to the MBT, but they can be quickly and in decent volumes, transferred by aircraft with everything needed for battle, over long distances, they will enter twice as many landing ships, while they can remain floating if desired.
                  And other combat modules on such a chassis (BMP-3M "Dragoon") can be installed, incl. from 57 mm. automatic weapon. And such prototypes already exist.
                  And the heavy BMP T-15 should go in the same battle formations with assault tanks on the same base, but with 152 mm. a gun, and a "Terminator" in a bind - to storm a highly protected defense line or in urban areas.
                  For all other cases, the BMP-3M "Dragoon" will be sufficient, moreover, as a UNIVERSAL infantry fighting vehicle for all branches and types of troops, from the SV and Airborne Forces, to the Marine Corps, MTR, Russian Guard and coastal defense.
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  Well, if, for the AU-220, one of the AFAR canvases is made on the same axis as the barrel, then it is possible to hit the UAV using the same high-explosive shots with remote detonation.

                  If you make such a memory (which would be nice), then it’s better to make a separate version with a high ballistics gun. And now a similar weapon of LOW ballistics is being used on the BMP, because this is enough. And it is right .
              3. 0
                13 May 2022 11: 51
                Quote: bayard
                In addition, the tank proposed by the author with 152 mm dropped out of the discussion. tool .
                Indeed, the battles in Mariupol and the assault on the cities (etc., etc.) of the Donbass showed that the power of 125 mm. a tank gun is not always enough. I wrote about this for several years, gave examples of the need for such an assault tank on the "Armata" chassis. Moreover, on the basis of not the T-14, but the T-15 - it is in this case that you can get a more voluminous and at the same time protected fighting compartment and therefore have sufficient ammunition (the place and weight of the 152 mm ammunition will take much more. And if it is an assault a tank for this type of battle, then its gun can be of low ballistics, which will remove a number of design problems.

                Totally agree with you. Even from the first testimony at the parade, I had one question. Why do we need this prodigy with a 125mm gun, when in the 80s Soviet designers already realized the insufficiency of the current tank gun and designed the Boxer project for a 152mm gun. Little of. In the USSR there was such a gun Object 120 has a 152mm M69 gun. As Yach understood from the documentation, this smoothbore gun was spoiled by removing the rifling of the 130mm gun barrel.
                152mm is, with more weight and less portable ammunition, the following pluses:
                Removing the ammunition load into the aft niche of the tower will allow you to make crowbars of greater length (larger length of crowbar - more penetration);
                Crowbars from 152mm guns will also have more weight. Speed ​​multiplied by a large mass will also add to penetration.
                If exaggerated, then the 152mm gun on our tanks puts an end to all current and future MBT camps of NATO for 50 years. counter crowbars 60mm.
                In the manufacture of a gun with a good long barrel, this is also a large range while maintaining penetration ability (at the moment, MBTs can only effectively penetrate up to 2 km) A 152mm gun can easily take this distance to 3,5-4 km.

                Well, now a fly in the ointment:
                The 152mm gun, in addition to the smaller ammunition load, has the following problems:
                1) for the manufacture of a 152mm gun with good ballistics, 3,5-4 km of effective fire will increase the mass of the gun by 30-40%;
                2) in order to compensate for the recoil of such a gun, it is necessary to completely manufacture a recoil compensation system from scratch and the muzzle brake will clearly be out of place here. This new system will add more weight.
                From the above, it remains to be concluded whether such a tank is needed?
                If it is implemented as part of the T-14 project, then at the end we will get a car with a weight of the same 60-70 tons with all the ensuing mobility problems on shifting soils that NATO tanks now have.
                Well, the question is DO WE NEED IT? Hence the conclusion: that the T-14 project in its current form is a stillborn child, for whom they cannot find an excuse to release it into a series. Although it must be confessed: the security of the T-14 is better than that of the MBT developed by the T-64/72/80/90. And these MBTs have exhausted their modernization capabilities.
                1. +1
                  13 May 2022 23: 35
                  Good and correct analysis. hi
                  Now we will try to draw a conclusion and practical proposals, based on the existing needs and existing restrictions.
                  Such a tank (with a 152 mm gun) is needed, it is needed yesterday and precisely as an ATTACK (and not MBT).
                  Hence the conclusion - the gun should be of low ballistics (this will immediately reduce the recoil and weight of the gun itself, and therefore all the problems associated with it), with ammo from concrete-piercing, high-explosive and volumetric detonating shells. At the same time, the portable ammunition should be sufficient to perform the intended combat missions, and this (in turn) requires a more voluminous fighting compartment.
                  Therefore, it is the chassis (and, in general, the hull itself) of the T-15 that suits this purpose in the most optimal way, providing both much better security (than existing tanks) and sufficient portable ammo.
                  The weight of such a tank should also not become prohibitive, but it will definitely be 10 tons more than the existing T-14 and T-15. This will require wider tracks and will bring certain problems when passing bridges. But in this case, we are not talking about MBT, but about an assault tank, whose task is to storm the main defense lines and suppress the enemy in urban battles. The entire RF Armed Forces will need several hundred such tanks, and this will be quite enough.
                  What is another plus from this venture?
                  Oddly enough, this is a single chassis with the T-15, which are also needed in the troops, but also in quantities limited to several hundred. In conditions when the T-14 is clearly not suitable as an MBT and is not needed in the troops, it will allow labor not to go to waste, and ensure the industry is loaded.
                  As another way to use such a chassis, it seems to be used as a base for the "Coalition", which on the T-90 chassis looks clearly overloaded and not stable enough. The chassis from the T-15 will be the most suitable for this self-propelled guns.
                  This is how we were able to find a use for a completely good chassis from a not quite successful ... tank.
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  Crowbars from 152mm guns will also have more weight. Speed ​​multiplied by a large mass will also add to penetration.

                  Quote: PROXOR
                  In the manufacture of a gun with a good long barrel, this is also a large range while maintaining penetration ability (at the moment, MBTs can only effectively penetrate up to 2 km) A 152mm gun can easily take this distance to 3,5-4 km.

                  This is perhaps unnecessary in a real combat situation, at such and a greater range, "Chrysanthemums" and ATGMs from the MBT barrel will quite cope with the detected tanks. Moreover, tanks are fighting only in the direct line of sight of the enemy, and this rarely exceeds those same 2-3 km. And in their BC there are always (almost) ATGMs.
                  - But what will happen if, during street battles or during an assault operation, our tank with 152 mm. will meet the enemy's MBT with a low ballistics weapon? - you ask ?
                  - Nothing bad will happen. Firstly, our tank is much better protected than any other MBT, and secondly, it will be able to work on a detected enemy tank with almost any projectile from its ammo ... And I really do not envy the enemy tank in this case. If a concrete-piercing or HE shell simply rips off his tower or ... puts it at the seams, then a thermobaric shell will do something terrible with it in general ... and its ammo inside will most likely detonate terribly at the same time. just look at WHAT happens to tanks that come under fire with 6 "ammunition ... they can even turn them over at a close gap.
                  And about the 152 mm itself. guns.
                  They worked on a gun of this caliber (smoothbore) for the T-95, and in principle they were successful, although the resource and survivability of the barrel still raised some questions. But if we, taking this particular weapon as the basis, shorten the barrel and reduce the weight of the propellant charge, then ... all the previous questions and fears will disappear by themselves.
                  Moreover, with a weapon of shorter length in urban combat and during an assault, it is somewhat ... more convenient to twirl. feel
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  to be honest: the security of the T-14 is better than that of the MBT developed by the T-64/72/80/90.

                  In principle, the T-90M "Breakthrough-3" as an MBT is quite consistent, although it requires some attention to the protection of the upper hemisphere.

                  When deciding on the choice of the appearance of promising combat vehicles, it is very important to take into account the existing developments and the backlog of the industry, as well as its (industry) ability to mass-produce the desired equipment. For military equipment is needed not "at some time in general", but often - by a specific time and in specific quantities.
                  Thanks for the dialogue. hi
    7. 0
      13 May 2022 23: 59
      Well, as I said before, I doubted the necessity and coolness of the landing. Yes, people are quite serious, in terms of training, physical and other things. But in the 21st century they will not let them land troops according to the classics. Their need ended in World War II. And there were still some kind of dark zones for air defense, where they simply did not exist. And the planes (fighters) did not fly so fast, and not so far, and there were no such radars, and missiles ... And now, by combining everything in a compartment, this practically nullifies the need for risks, for the same landing. Well, for example, where was it possible and will it be dropped off in the current one? Well, let's say Gostomel.
      I think this was according to the original plan (of the highest degree of audacity and "What if it gives a ride"). Well, the landing of a helicopter landing, the capture of a bridgehead, the suppression of local air defense, the capture / destruction of radars, etc.
      But something went wrong (EVERYTHING) and I had to move in forced marches, already in order to save that same landing force, and absolutely abandon the transport aircraft, which apparently they wanted to transfer that very landing force, to a patch to Kyiv. And yes, they took the airfield, in the hope of transporting the landing force, cargo for it, etc. But they didn’t land paratroopers in the field, as in exercises, by the thousands. Well, it doesn’t work out in the presence of air defense even in the 60-70s without huge risks to land troops. Who tried it, can tell, Lugansk Aero, 2014. Well, it can't be more precise.
    8. +3
      1 August 2022 10: 48
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      Yes, in this conflict it was not necessary to parachute BMD from aircraft, but such a need may arise in the future.

      It cannot arise, landing operations were not effective even during WWII (the only successful example is the German landing on the island of Crete), and after that they were not carried out at all outside the exercises. The RF Armed Forces do not even have the funds for full-fledged landing operations, the capabilities of transport aviation are extremely limited, and how to carry them out - progress in air defense has made the idea of ​​landing meaningless if you do not want to lose a bunch of people and a transport fleet.
  3. +11
    12 May 2022 04: 45
    Can the Airborne Forces, following the example of the 103rd Airborne Division in Afghanistan, equip infantry fighting vehicles, tanks and artillery, remove these BMDs and shells from the field?
    1. +9
      12 May 2022 13: 05
      Quote: Saboteur_Navy
      arm infantry fighting vehicles, tanks and artillery, remove these BMDs and shells from the field?

      Exactly. Immediately on the Afghan experience and had to be done. Forty years have passed, but our military leaders are still haunted by sweet dreams with strategic landings deep behind enemy lines.
      1. -1
        12 May 2022 13: 18
        If you rearm at least 4 airborne divisions, what kind of help to the Ground Forces! Firepower will increase 10 times! And armor protection! And there are also brigades ... In case of need, the landing will be enough for the brigades
        1. +13
          12 May 2022 13: 37
          Quote: Saboteur_Navy
          In case of need, an airborne landing will be enough for a brigade

          Airborne assault with equipment is an unrealizable dream in our time. The landing force can only have equipment that can be delivered by helicopter. Everything. About the dropping of BMD and Octopus parachutes from the IL-76 must be forgotten once and for all.
          1. 0
            12 May 2022 14: 11
            Yes you are right. But I think this idea can be used to organize in western Ukraine something like a partisan detachment like Kovpak, you can throw out personnel and a master unit there, but again, you don’t need much for this, there are again GRU special forces brigades, they can also jump from a parachute
            1. -1
              12 May 2022 19: 37
              I’m going straight to the pitchfork, to the delight of the tiktokers and the teroborone.
              1. 0
                12 May 2022 19: 55
                Kovpak was of a different opinion, he raised the Benderites on a pitchfork
            2. 0
              14 May 2022 00: 12
              Sorry, but the whole point is that when MANPADS are saturated, and the remains of quite live beeches and s300s, other OS, arrows, and even YES, enemy aviation makes it impossible for any activity there, not only transport, but even military aviation . The military can operate partially, not far from its own orders (under the cover of its own air defense), but the transport one, alas, does not. What kind of Kovpak is there?) The times are not the same. Communication and reconnaissance is not the same as surveillance equipment (drones with thermal imaging and Nightwish cameras). Modern Kovpak is, at best, a prisoner, at worst, a corpse, somewhere in the forest, a few hours after the landing, and in 90% probability even before it.
  4. +29
    12 May 2022 05: 04
    As I noticed, lying on the couch, the Marine Corps in the conditions of the city was the first to use the tactics of interaction between a tank and an armored personnel carrier, a tank and an infantry fighting vehicle, and they are doing it well, there Journalist Filatov often showed a commander with the call sign Struna, a smart guy, it would be time to give him a Hero! And they would have more T-90 tanks with thermal imagers. Yes, and the journalist Filatov complained that the gun of the armored personnel carrier often sticks and it would be nice to put a camera in the conditions of urban combat for reversing, this is important!

    https://t.me/FilatovCorr/119
    1. +1
      12 May 2022 08: 56
      So t72b3 is also with the same heat
      1. +3
        12 May 2022 11: 56
        Not everything, as I understood it, the same Filatov in the report showed that when their tank was blown up by a mine, they were given another one without a thermal imager, they pulled out the one that was blown up for repairs
    2. 0
      12 May 2022 13: 45
      Filatov often showed the commander with the call sign Struna, a smart guy, it would be time to give him a Hero!

      With a red backpack which?
      1. +2
        12 May 2022 14: 06
        Yes, smart commander, unfortunately there are few of them
    3. +1
      12 May 2022 14: 25
      Wouldn't it be easier to give assault units a vehicle with good armor, a 152mm small ballistics gun, and also install a 30mm 2A42 or 2A72 cannon on the turret?
      1. +2
        12 May 2022 14: 44
        I watched the first reports of Filatov, so they stormed there with a tank and BMP-1, also the Marine Corps and successfully, then I see they replaced the BMP-1 with the BTR-82a, the cannon threshed there at home, be healthy, only, Filatov wrote that it sticks, the designers need to go there plant really, maybe then they will work better
        1. +2
          12 May 2022 15: 55
          Yes, rework the design under 2A42. She is more reliable.
      2. -1
        13 May 2022 18: 58
        Good idea - you get an assault tank for the city. Instead of BMPT, which is not clear how to use. Moreover, move the remote turret with ammunition forward, and the crew back under the tactics of "rolled out, fired, drove off."
  5. +25
    12 May 2022 05: 10
    In the Soviet Union, for example, the experience of the war in Afghanistan was very mediocre.
    Yes, how can I say ... It was at this time that DZ sets were massively installed on tanks, KAZs were developed, overall armor and mine protection were strengthened, especially in terms of anti-bottom mines, a new PPO system was designed and began to be installed. On older machines, in the process of modernization, more powerful engines were installed. So, if outwardly the same tanks have changed little, then there were changes inside.
    The T-90, which was being developed just during the war in Afghanistan, did not receive any fundamental improvements in comparison with the T-72.
    I would advise the author to study the materiel more carefully before drawing such conclusions
    Have we seen a lot how BMPs or armored personnel carriers overcame water barriers in Ukraine? Engineering departments have always been involved for this.
    So far, one large water barrier has been overcome there - the Seversky Donets, a very peculiar river, which has very swampy and swampy banks that make it difficult or impossible both to go afloat and to go ashore. Therefore, it is not surprising that engineering troops are used to the fullest to overcome it and force it.
    1. +3
      12 May 2022 06: 30
      Engineering troops and the ability to swim are somewhat different things. Having the ability to swim is imperceptible while it is there. Remove it and see why you need it.
      For everything else, I repeat, the article is a set of conclusions from couch theorists. The author has never sat in a tank, but he knows how to do it ......
    2. +2
      12 May 2022 08: 14
      I agree with you! In my specialty, I can say that the communication organization system was seriously revised, the existing equipment was modernized and new types of equipment were designed. Secret communications (digital) finally reached the battalions and even companies, individual platoons and divisions. They began to move away from different "krutilok" to frequency synthesizers for r / st, and in general the elemental base of the equipment has changed.
      1. +4
        12 May 2022 08: 28
        It's fine! Finally! BUT! This is yesterday .. In order to operate effectively today, it is necessary to have target designation from virtually any soldier, and we have not established a banal connection between infantry and armored vehicles .. Not to mention regular target designation UAVs at the squad \ platoon level, just about full-time ones ..
        1. +9
          12 May 2022 12: 15
          In order to operate effectively today, it is necessary to have target designation from virtually any fighter, and we have not established a banal connection between infantry and armored vehicles ..

          The Americans at the stern of the Abrams placed a telephone to communicate with the crew. It would be very valuable for the infantry to have a laser target designator operating in the invisible spectrum, so that the tankers could quickly indicate where they need to
          shoot.
          In addition, where are the laser means of detecting optics or acoustic means of detecting shots in the troops?
          The presence of a radar in KAZ also allows you to detect directions from where the enemy is firing.
          In combat, you first need to know where to shoot. And then you don't need to bother with 152 mm guns, an accurate shot of 100-125 mm will be enough.
          1. +6
            12 May 2022 13: 34
            The Americans at the stern of the Abrams placed a telephone to communicate with the crew.

            We have the possibility of communication between the tank commander and the landing on the armor appeared exactly from the second half of the 1950s through the TPU. In my time of service (the end of the 70s) there was a TPU R-124.
            laser designator operating in the invisible spectrum

            Operation in the infrared range is a standard (and in most cases the main and even the only) option for army designators.
            The presence of a radar in KAZ also allows you to detect directions from where the enemy is firing.

            Radar tank KAZ scans the space within one, well, two, hundreds of meters. She will not show you the point of launching a rocket from an ATGM.
            1. -1
              12 May 2022 14: 31
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              Radar tank KAZ scans the space within one, well, two, hundreds of meters. She will not show you the point of launching a rocket from an ATGM.

              But it will indicate the direction of launch. And then you need a thermal imager to quickly determine the launch.
            2. -1
              12 May 2022 14: 45
              Operation in the infrared range is a standard (and in most cases the main and even the only) option for army designators.

              We need a target designation device available at the platoon-company level.
              Radar tank KAZ scans the space within one, well, two, hundreds of meters. She will not show you the point of launching a rocket from an ATGM.

              It is enough to know the direction of the strike, given that the ATGM flies in a straight line.
          2. +2
            12 May 2022 13: 48
            The presence of a radar in KAZ also allows you to detect directions from where the enemy is firing.


            If the radar sees where the enemy is firing from, then the enemy sees the locator and slams a couple of bursts there. "What are we for?" wassat
            1. +5
              12 May 2022 15: 41
              To see a locator, you need to have your own locator.... In general, this is an answer to the idea of #analogues electronic warfare systems.
              Who doesn’t understand ... the point is that the squad-platoon-company (and most likely even the battalion) have no real means to detect radar radiation
              1. 0
                12 May 2022 16: 01
                no real means to detect radar radiation
                Is he invisible? Visual contact, and it is not covered by armor.
          3. -1
            12 May 2022 14: 10
            Quote: Cympak
            The Americans at the stern of the Abrams placed a telephone to communicate with the crew

            Which Abrams? They had this device even during the Second World War at the stern of tanks ..
            The infantry in the vidos flashed the Farah VR radar, why they don’t put it on equipment, I don’t know ..
      2. +2
        12 May 2022 10: 27
        The communication organization system was seriously revised, the existing equipment was modernized and new types of equipment were designed.

        when was this done? While only the Azart complexes flash on the video, there is probably a Sagittarius, it has been used since Syria. The other is not visible.
      3. +3
        12 May 2022 21: 55
        Here I can be smashed into an entire article, I will try to be brief.

        Secret communications (digital) finally reached the battalions and even companies, individual platoons and units
        About thirty years ago, the Historian was not such a big stray with a great possibility of miniaturization. It could have been done for twenty years already on one chip. The final device is no larger than a matchbox in size, even on the 120 nm process technology (we definitely have such staplers). Okay, another matchbox battery. The problem of key exchange is quite solved by asymmetric cryptography. There is no need to go far, the same secure Internet communications protocol HTTPS has been coping with this task for twenty years.

        We began to move away from different "twirls" to frequency synthesizers on r / st
        I didn't quite understand what it was about. If about radio stations with variable communication frequencies in a random order, then how are they going to provide communication in the event of an active struggle with communications from the enemy? It’s good if it drowns out, but if a rocket / drone is launched at the source?
        The issue of peer-to-peer mixed networks remains open. Laziness / not leisure / not destiny to develop? There are a lot of open projects. I can send links to repositories. Many projects are working and are quite used to bypass state systems of deep traffic filtering.
        It can show impudence, but still I wanted at least some semblance of the "Friend or Alien" system on earth. Just do not tell that asymmetric cryptography is expensive and the chip for these purposes will be larger than a pumpkin seed. It’s just that when you listen to negotiations in which they are trying to find out whose tank it is, it somehow becomes uncomfortable. In addition, ammunition guidance systems are becoming more intelligent, so it will not be superfluous in the future. In general, many technologies from aircraft would do well to land, optimize and make them mass-produced.
        1. Aag
          0
          13 May 2022 16: 53
          Quote from barbos
          Here I can be smashed into an entire article, I will try to be brief.

          Secret communications (digital) finally reached the battalions and even companies, individual platoons and units
          About thirty years ago, the Historian was not such a big stray with a great possibility of miniaturization. It could have been done for twenty years already on one chip. The final device is no larger than a matchbox in size, even on the 120 nm process technology (we definitely have such staplers). Okay, another matchbox battery. The problem of key exchange is quite solved by asymmetric cryptography. There is no need to go far, the same secure Internet communications protocol HTTPS has been coping with this task for twenty years.

          We began to move away from different "twirls" to frequency synthesizers on r / st
          I didn't quite understand what it was about. If about radio stations with variable communication frequencies in a random order, then how are they going to provide communication in the event of an active struggle with communications from the enemy? It’s good if it drowns out, but if a rocket / drone is launched at the source?
          The issue of peer-to-peer mixed networks remains open. Laziness / not leisure / not destiny to develop? There are a lot of open projects. I can send links to repositories. Many projects are working and are quite used to bypass state systems of deep traffic filtering.
          It can show impudence, but still I wanted at least some semblance of the "Friend or Alien" system on earth. Just do not tell that asymmetric cryptography is expensive and the chip for these purposes will be larger than a pumpkin seed. It’s just that when you listen to negotiations in which they are trying to find out whose tank it is, it somehow becomes uncomfortable. In addition, ammunition guidance systems are becoming more intelligent, so it will not be superfluous in the future. In general, many technologies from aircraft would do well to land, optimize and make them mass-produced.

          Sorry, I can guess the meaning of your comment ... intuitively, in general terms ... (It seems to me ... and you, too, from the couch, it’s “somewhat” easier to assess the situation ...
          I don’t give a damn about the minuses, but IMHO, what I see every day: (how they park their cars, as I promise they communicate, it seems that their parents were not from the USSR ...
    3. +5
      12 May 2022 12: 07
      The Seversky Donets is a very peculiar river, which has very swampy and swampy banks that make it difficult or impossible both to go afloat and to go ashore.

      If there is a river nearby, then you can figure out for yourself how much floating armored vehicles can independently go into the water and go ashore. As a rule, there are very few such places. Usually one or both banks are steep and do not have an equipped exit to the water, and if the coast is flat, then most likely it is swampy, with weak soil. those. likely to require engineering parts. It can simply increase the pontoon park, and securely cover the induced crossing with artillery and aviation.
      1. -4
        13 May 2022 08: 42
        And who will capture the bridgehead? Elves?
  6. +12
    12 May 2022 05: 14
    How the BTT will change from the article is not clear. And about the landing and floating equipment, the author gets excited. At least the marines need a floating one, and as for the landing one, the wars will not end with Ukraine, what will be needed next is unclear.
    Personally, I think that the Airborne Forces need fairly light vehicles with a MANDATORY INSTALLED set of mounted armor, but capable of parachute landing without it.
    And the buoyancy of the BMP can be ensured even with sufficiently powerful armor while maintaining acceptable dimensions.
    The issue of price.
    1. +6
      12 May 2022 08: 47
      Personally, I think that the Airborne Forces need fairly light vehicles with a MANDATORY INSTALLED set of mounted armor, but capable of parachute landing without it.

      It is right. And not necessarily airborne. The main thing in landing vehicles is air transportability. The ability to quickly transfer them by air to the desired point by landing method.
    2. +9
      12 May 2022 09: 00
      For the landing of equipment, complete suppression of air defense is needed. What is not real.
      1. 0
        12 May 2022 14: 11
        And just the transfer of equipment by air, as it was in January 2022 in Kazakhstan?
    3. +11
      12 May 2022 10: 07
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      and as for the landing one, the wars will not end with Ukraine, what will be needed next is unclear.

      Everything becomes crystal clear if you look at the current composition of the BTA and the rate of its replenishment. What is the point of arming entire divisions with parachute-borne equipment if we cannot throw out more than a regiment with standard equipment and supplies?
      As a result, the main method of using the airborne forces is the transfer of airfield-airfield and the reinforcement of infantry in threatened directions. Where no one needs parachute landing, but the protection of equipment and the firepower of units sacrificed to the parachute idol are just critical.
      1. +8
        12 May 2022 13: 02
        As a result, the airfield-airfield transfer becomes the main way to use the airborne forces.

        If so .... In practice, the NWO main way of transferring airborne equipment became public roads ....
        1. +9
          12 May 2022 13: 50
          Quote: Cympak
          If so .... In practice, the NWO main way of transferring airborne equipment became public roads ....

          Depends on the distances from the PPD to the theater. In the same war, on August 08.08.08, XNUMX, the Novorossiysk division arrived in Abkhazia by rail, and the Pskov division flew to North Ossetia, and then on its own.
          In any case, it is extremely useful to have several divisions that can be quickly transferred across half the country (even if in several moves). For in the same 08.08.08, the classic "heavy" division from Volgograd could only reach South Ossetia in a couple of weeks.
    4. +7
      12 May 2022 12: 19
      Personally, I think that the Airborne Forces need fairly light vehicles with a MANDATORY INSTALLED set of mounted armor, but capable of parachute landing without it.

      The BMD-4M is objectively much more expensive than the BMP-3, while it is less protected and carries fewer troops. And if there is no need to drop equipment from an aircraft, then it is better and cheaper to use infantry fighting vehicles with additional. protection. By the way, regular additional protection was not noticed during the SVO on our infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles. Why and who is to blame?
      1. +6
        12 May 2022 14: 50
        Quote: Cympak
        And if there is no need to drop equipment from an aircraft, then it is better and cheaper to use infantry fighting vehicles with additional. protection.

        Quite right, but only if you refuse to drop with a parachute. But in this case, the Airborne Forces also lose their meaning, don't you think? Well, train the line infantry to get in / out of the plane, and that's it.
        1. +2
          1 August 2022 11: 18
          Well, the American infantrymen do anything, but not amphibious assaults) The Airborne Forces should simply become an elite expeditionary force, such as the American Marines or the French Legion. On the other hand, we have our own Marines.
          1. 0
            2 August 2022 08: 28
            Quote: LastPS
            Well, the American infantrymen do anything, but not amphibious assaults)

            But they don’t refuse landing craft like AAV and LCAC, much less UDC, a maximum replacement.
            1. 0
              2 August 2022 21: 57
              At least it is possible to provide a naval assault, unlike a large-scale airborne assault in modern conditions.
              1. 0
                5 August 2022 06: 11
                Quote: LastPS
                At least it is possible to provide a naval assault, unlike a large-scale airborne assault in modern conditions.

                Seriously? In conditions of unsuppressed coastal defense? Give examples of such "landing" since the Korean War.

                Quote: Old Tankman
                And just the transfer of equipment by air, as it was in January 2022 in Kazakhstan?
                I will add that it is possible, and sometimes necessary, to transfer and drop equipment in your own rear. To build up forces, to block threatened directions - there are many reasons. And in addition to the landing and conventional parachute methods, there is a low-altitude drop of equipment on pilot chutes, this is me for the low visibility and surprise of the landing.
                https://desantura.ru/articles/36/?SHOWALL_1=1
                1. 0
                  5 August 2022 09: 41
                  Seriously? In conditions of unsuppressed coastal defense? Give examples of such "landing" since the Korean War.

                  And who said that in the conditions of unsuppressed coastal defense? It is easier to suppress coastal defenses than to get a missile from a MANPADS to a transport aircraft, and ships are not transport aircraft. In addition, it is absolutely not necessary to carry out landings at all, the ILC fleet is mobile airfields, coupled with barracks, which can be relocated to anywhere in the world.
                  I will add that it is possible, and sometimes necessary, to transfer and drop equipment in your own rear. To build up forces, to block threatened directions - there are many reasons.

                  And I don’t argue with this, on the contrary, I support this position, I mean, if you abandon the airborne assault forces, it will not lose its meaning, which I wrote about in the first comment.
                  And in addition to the landing and conventional parachute methods, there is a low-altitude drop of equipment on pilot chutes, this is me for the low visibility and surprise of the landing.

                  On pilot chutes, only cargo can be dropped, well, or equipment without landing, besides, this is not an easy maneuver under ideal conditions, not to mention the combat situation, and the number of sites for this is limited by the terrain, and, well, a transporter at an altitude of 100m ( and the cargo is generally dropped at 3-5 meters), flying up to the drop points is very imperceptible and safe, yeah.
                  1. 0
                    5 August 2022 16: 32
                    Quote: LastPS
                    And who said that in the conditions of unsuppressed coastal defense? Coastal defense is easier to suppress

                    This is exactly what you are comparing the suppression of defense with a landing in the rear across the line of contact, noticeably different things. But even so, there were no landings with the suppression of defense after Korea. The Falklands can not be considered, there the Argentines, except for the pilots, generally merged.
                    Quote: LastPS
                    And I don’t argue with this, on the contrary, I support this position, I mean, if you abandon the airborne assault forces, it will not lose its meaning, which I wrote about in the first comment.
                    I'm talking about building up forces in a NON-LANDING way, in the absence of sites, to ensure surprise or efficiency, where to drive drugs and equipment on their own from the nearest airfield for a long time. And I’ll write right away that VTA planes cannot even transfer tanks to prepared unpaved strips. And from the BMP-oh, you know, no more sense than from the BMD.

                    Quote: LastPS
                    On pilot chutes, only cargo can be dropped, well, or equipment without landing
                    And with the landing, equipment now, and always, was not massively abandoned. The personnel are quite calmly landed from low (up to 300 m) heights. or turntables in general (well, in theory).
                    Quote: LastPS
                    in addition, it is not an easy maneuver under ideal conditions, not to mention the combat situation,
                    Where is the logic? Landing and unloading in your opinion is a very simple maneuver?
                    Quote: LastPS
                    and the number of sites for this is limited by the terrain
                    Not even many times more places for this, fundamentally more! I see you didn't follow the link. I will duplicate:
                    In addition to the fact that this method has sufficient reliability, it can be used in the presence of narrow unprepared sections of the landing surface of cargoes, such as roads, open meadows, sloping sea and river banks, etc.
                    I will add arable land and snow-covered and just fields.

                    Quote: LastPS
                    well, a transporter at a height of 100m (and the cargo is generally dropped at 3-5 meters), flying up to the drop points is very imperceptible and safe, yeah.
                    Imagine air defense at low altitudes and breaking through, so far. But I do not call for breaking through something there, an ultra-low altitude is needed for a safe approach as close as possible to the line of contact.
                    1. +1
                      5 August 2022 17: 32
                      I'm talking about building up forces in a NON-LANDING way, in the absence of sites, to ensure surprise or efficiency, where to drive drugs and equipment on their own from the nearest airfield for a long time. And I’ll write right away that VTA planes cannot even transfer tanks to prepared unpaved strips. And from the BMP-oh, you know, no more sense than from the BMD.

                      Well, if such an operation is carried out in its own rear, where there is no enemy air defense, then yes. My thoughts about the uselessness of the Airborne Forces in the old format are dictated by the weakness of their equipment on the modern battlefield, which is so due to the method of transportation. I see the future of this kind of troops as rapid reaction formations, using conventional army equipment, which does not include the possibility of landing, well, except to give them something like a slightly more protected octopus or a new American light tank from above.
                      Where is the logic? Landing and unloading in your opinion is a very simple maneuver?

                      Compared to landing at a height of 3-5 meters, it is simple. Landing any certified pilot can perform, in contrast to such maneuvers.
                      I see you didn't follow the link.

                      We went, but I didn’t hear that someone was doing something like that, with the exception of such experiments, be sure it would be the highlight of the program of any exercises, but the Airborne Forces always do something with a classic landing.
                      1. 0
                        5 August 2022 17: 47
                        Quote: LastPS
                        well, except to give them something like a slightly more protected octopus or a new American light tank on top.
                        In general, the landing on the armor, which in my opinion, which in your enemy will merge with tanks. Well, only the landing method greatly reduces the responsiveness, very much.
                        Quote: LastPS
                        Compared to landing at a height of 3-5 meters, it is simple. Landing any certified pilot can perform, in contrast to such maneuvers.
                        I partly agree with this, but let me remind you that far from "any certified pilot" is sent out for landing.

                        Quote: LastPS
                        for someone to do something similar with the exception of such experiments, be sure it would be the highlight of the program of any exercises, but the Airborne Forces always do something with a classic landing.
                        It's a matter of desire for command and training, that's all. hi
                      2. +1
                        5 August 2022 18: 49
                        Well, only the landing method greatly reduces the responsiveness, very much.

                        It reduces, but this is critical only in the event of a large-scale war, and that’s not a fact, these are complex processes, because no one will attack instantly without preparation, troops will be gathered at the borders and this process will wander for an n-th amount of time during which it will be possible to transfer landing troops to the desired direction. Even if we agree that a large-scale landing operation with a low-altitude drop is possible, it still rests on the quality of the landing equipment, which will have all the same shortcomings as now, and this is the main problem.
  7. +1
    12 May 2022 06: 01
    But is it impossible to specifically develop removable hinged armor for the Airborne Forces? Ceramic, Kevlar, or any .. - When landing, it is not on a car, but in a separate container, say .. by a "locomotive" it is dropped immediately behind the car .. And is it already hung on the ground if necessary? and the current conflict shows that we need not armor, but heat-insulating capes, screens .. - because anti-tank systems and UAVs are fighting with thermal seekers .. None of the anti-tank guns fire direct fire .. Although the lack of proper aerial reconnaissance on our part leads to tank duels .. According to the mind, not every vehicle, well, at least a tank platoon should have its own reconnaissance drone .. each platoon of attack aircraft of marines and paratroopers also needs its own UAV for reconnaissance .. and deprive all the equipment of "waterflight" still impossible. Not everywhere and not always there are engineering troops, suggesting a pontoon crossing ..
    1. -4
      12 May 2022 09: 12
      Is it impossible to specifically develop removable hinged armor for the Airborne Forces? Ceramic, Kevlar, or any .. - When landing, it is not on a car, but in a separate container, say .. by a "locomotive" it is dropped immediately behind the car .. And is it already hung on the ground if necessary?

      The same should be done for conventional armored vehicles, due to the weight restrictions for mobility. And then they made Armata weighing over 60 tons, but they forgot about the bridges, sparks are needed. Battle tank and escort transporter with additional armor and g / p mechanisms for mounting and repair.
      1. +1
        12 May 2022 11: 35
        Quote: Konnick
        And then they made Armata weighing over 60 tons

        What "for 60 tons"? Armata - 53 tons.
        1. 0
          12 May 2022 11: 47
          What "for 60 tons"? Armata - 53 tons.

          There is no exact data, at first UVZ declared 48 tons like the T-90M, then the weight of the tank and infantry fighting vehicles on the Armata platform was declassified at Army-2019, it turned out to be 55 tons.

          The overall dimensions of the machine were also made public: its length is 10,8 m, width, - 3,9 m, and the height is 3,3 m. But the most interesting thing is that the weight is indicated for the first time - 55 tons. Earlier, 48-49 tons appeared in unofficial sources.


          https://rg.ru/2019/06/28/ves-tanka-i-bmp-na-platforme-armata-rassekretili-na-armii-2019.html
          Yes, the maximum width allowed for transportation by rail 3,25 m.
          1. +2
            12 May 2022 11: 51
            48-49 tons is without a kit for urban combat. With a set - 53-55 tons. But where is "over 60"?
        2. +2
          12 May 2022 14: 15
          And this is not due to bridges, but to the carrying capacity of most platforms.
    2. +8
      12 May 2022 10: 24
      Is it impossible to specifically develop removable hinged armor for the Airborne Forces?

      They already did this, the Afghan version of the BMP with hinged armor.
      But we have been discussing for 30 years about whether hinged armor and lattices help to defend ourselves or not, and they cannot decide. And you want to be used on equipment already.
      Meanwhile, very interesting news comes from Ukraine. For example, the defensive line in Popasna, which was stormed for 2 months, was
      saturated with concrete firing points covered with lattice screens from RPG shots. and it protected them.
      While the authorities are thinking, they are already doing and applying at the bottom. And when our bureaucracy is born, request
    3. +4
      12 May 2022 13: 08
      When landing, it is not on a car, but in a separate container, let's say .. by a "locomotive" it is dropped immediately behind the car ..

      In practice, this will significantly increase the deployment time of the landing: you need to find your container in the field, attract a significant number of paratroopers to install additional armor sections on the equipment. While they are doing this, the enemy will simply cover the landing site with artillery or MLRS.
  8. -2
    12 May 2022 06: 12
    Two sets of equipment. Regiments with air landing and overcoming water obstacles and regiments with heavy weapons incapable of independent crossing. And already the army commanders will use what is more profitable. Keeping the more mobile heavy ones in reserve or sending them to the rear of the enemy with a jerk, and the heavy ones to the cities and ousting ...
    1. +1
      12 May 2022 13: 12
      Two sets of equipment. Regiments with air landing and overcoming water obstacles and regiments with heavy weapons incapable of independent crossing. And already the army commanders will use what is more profitable. Keeping more mobile heavy in reserve or sent behind enemy lines with a jerk, and heavy ones to cities and ousting

      You can leave one battalion in "heavy" regiments on floating infantry fighting vehicles, to develop success in battle, and to train combat coordination of heavy and light units in peacetime. Although with the modern practice of creating battalion tactical groups, this does not play a big role.
  9. -1
    12 May 2022 06: 12
    But sau with the appropriate caliber will not solve the problem?
    1. +2
      12 May 2022 08: 29
      Quote: aleks700
      But sau with the appropriate caliber will not solve the problem?

      They will decide as soon as they add armor ..
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. +9
    12 May 2022 06: 31
    Lessons of Ukraine

    Thanks for the optimism.
    He laughed heartily.

    By the way, a pessimist is a well-informed optimist :)
  12. -2
    12 May 2022 06: 32
    I won’t be clever and think out for the design engineers and the General Staff. I just hope that conclusions will be drawn and the development of new military equipment will pass quickly. And most importantly, new samples should be delivered to the troops not by the teaspoon per year, but in large quantities.
  13. +2
    12 May 2022 06: 33
    What needs to be changed in armored vehicles if the main problem is the bungling of the command? The Airborne Forces should parachute, and not roll along the roads receiving birds from ambushes
    1. +5
      12 May 2022 08: 31
      Quote: eskulap
      What needs to be changed in armored vehicles if the main problem is the bungling of the command? The Airborne Forces should parachute, and not roll along the roads receiving birds from ambushes

      Apparently the command is aware of the losses during the landing and therefore chose a less bloody way of riding along the roads ..
      1. +12
        12 May 2022 10: 18
        and therefore chose a less bloody way of riding along the roads ..

        how many times I saw a video of how they walk in columns, fall under fire, the question is tormenting, but how is it written in our charter about walking columns? As far as I remember, the head outpost, the vanguard, the column of the main forces, the rear guard, the rear outpost, stood out, not to mention patrol squads, etc. And in the video, everything is a rod in one continuous column, the distances between equipment and units are not respected, air reconnaissance is not conducted.
        Maybe it's not the technique, but the ability to apply?
        1. +7
          12 May 2022 10: 51
          Saving! Expensive! This is how much money you need to spend in order to organize a column according to all the rules? Everything rests on the loot, and then maybe it will slip through .. I repeat until the RF Ministry of Defense pays for the death of a serviceman from 100 million rubles and a pension of 100 rubles to the family of the deceased, nothing will change! Soldier is cheap! Therefore, it’s not good to spend expensive UAVs, Helicopters, high-precision missiles, high-quality uniforms and equipment on its defense, therefore Basurmanin, and not Kurganets, therefore we beat with SU-000 NARAs of the 34s, therefore Contact-60, not Relic .. Everything from this!
          1. +3
            12 May 2022 13: 27
            until the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation pays for the death of a serviceman from 100 million rubles and a pension of 100 rubles to the family of the deceased, nothing will change! Soldier is cheap!

            the general is not paying out of his own pocket. What difference does it make to him how much the MO will pay for the deceased?
            and in order to organize a column according to all the rules, it is not necessary to organize additional means. It is necessary to determine the elements of the battle order, to assign the distance between them, the order of movement and fire engagement with those means that are. I remember the cat Matroskin: "We have everything. We do not have enough mind."
            1. 0
              12 May 2022 14: 03
              Quote: glory1974
              the general is not paying out of his own pocket. What difference does it make to him how much the MO will pay for the deceased?

              The general also has bosses, but they will ask how this kind of money is spent? It is the authorities for the budget of the Moscow Region and is fighting ..
              Quote: glory1974
              and in order to organize a column according to all the rules, it is not necessary to organize additional means. It is necessary to determine the elements of the battle order, to assign the distance between them, the order of movement and fire engagement with those means that are. I remember the cat Matroskin: "We have everything. We do not have enough mind."

              How naive you are .. An order is given to conduct a column and that's it. And the fact that this and that is not provided and this and that is not provided, then you were given an order to this one answer! Do it. And the column burned down.. You look at the veils, and not at the beautiful words. ..
              1. 0
                13 May 2022 09: 17
                The general also has bosses, but they will ask how this kind of money is spent?

                Are you judging our Ministry of Defense by newspaper articles about American lobbying? We have a completely different system. Now they pay 7 million for the deceased. What do you think someone asks for this money?
                There is no need to act according to the charter of a great mind, but it is categorically not known where to get everything that is supposed to be according to the charter.

                Apparently you have nothing to do with the army, if you write such nonsense
                1. -1
                  13 May 2022 09: 29
                  Quote: glory1974
                  Now they pay 7 million for the deceased. What do you think someone asks for this money?

                  When they start paying 77 million, then there will be demand, I had a relationship with the army in military service and therefore I have no doubt about the "intelligence" of the military ..
    2. +3
      12 May 2022 09: 01
      How do you imagine it? Heavy silts over a country saturated with air defense systems ?? Great goals! In my opinion, 2 MANPADS were enough to fill up the silt in Luhansk in 14
  14. +11
    12 May 2022 06: 35
    The absence of KAZ on Russian tanks is a betrayal and a crime by the leadership of the Main Armored Directorate of the RF Ministry of Defense !!!

    These people, led by Major General Shestakov, must be prosecuted!!!

    The same investigation should be carried out in relation to the head of the artillery and missile troops of the RF Ministry of Defense regarding the lack of effective artillery reconnaissance equipment in the Russian army.
  15. -5
    12 May 2022 06: 48
    It is necessary to develop three new types of combat vehicles:
    1) Infantry tank, for escorting infantry and combat in conditions of dense enemy defense, including the city. Armament is a 152-mm howitzer gun in 30 calibers with an elevation angle of up to 60 degrees in the main turret and an automatic gun with an elevation angle of 90 degrees in the upper tier turret. Additionally - a Bumblebee-type flamethrower. Protection - anti-cumulative circular. Mobility - the level of T-10, or even IS-3, is quite enough. And stop reducing the height of the car! In addition to throwing dust in the eyes of the high authorities, this does nothing!
    2) An assault self-propelled gun similar to the "Sturmtigr", firing large-caliber ground-to-ground URS according to the principle - one shot - one house (any fortification). The requirements for protection and auxiliary weapons are similar. Can be created on the same base as an infantry tank.
    3) Deep penetration infantry fighting vehicle. In fact - a cruising tank with a troop compartment. Armament - universal URSs for destroying infantry, field fortifications, armored vehicles and army aviation, well, and everyone's favorite automatic cannon for circular fire. Mobility - maximum + the possibility of underwater travel (may be of the "Mouse" type).
    Yes, in my amateurish opinion.
    1. -2
      12 May 2022 09: 02
      The most important thing in commketari is an amateurish look.
    2. +4
      12 May 2022 19: 01
      Forgotten - the heroic main tank, which is able to operate in isolation from the main forces and in the environment, must withstand at least 10 hits of 5th generation anti-tank missiles and one orbital bombardment
      1. -1
        13 May 2022 07: 30
        And the main tank is not needed at all. The armoredinosaur, designed to fight with the same animal lizard, practically does not solve any other problems. Artillery support - bow to "Acacia", Assault actions - weapons sharpened for BOPS do not work for pillboxes and tops, streamlining and squat (memory of the thirty-four) do not allow convenient placement of units and crew, and anti-shell armor eats up the weight that could be spend on defense against light infantry anti-tank weapons. I am generally silent about the coaxial and anti-aircraft machine gun.
        As a cruising one, it’s also not possible to break through the shine, but it won’t capture it, and it’s fundamentally impossible to work satisfactorily with infantry and jihad mobiles with ATGMs by rotating the pan. Here we need vertical-launch missiles "shot and forget", a drone and infantry in the airborne squad.
        If an ATGM hits a tank, it is highly likely that it will disable it (otherwise, what kind of ATGM is it?) and it is necessary to fight not with the consequences, but with the reasons - to hit the launchers and crews. Hence - the requirements for weapons and the ability of combat vehicles for network-centric actions.
  16. +8
    12 May 2022 06: 49
    It won't change at all. Until the leadership of the GABTU is put on BMP tanks and kicked to the front line! After all, they live, walk on the ground, devour, knowing that it was possible to avoid the death of half of our guys, with the timely equipment of military equipment with protective screens, thermal imagers, etc.! Serdyukovtsy!
    1. +23
      12 May 2022 08: 19
      Serdyukov was dismissed in 2012. 10 years have passed.
      Everything can not be attributed to him, alas.
      1. +9
        12 May 2022 17: 11
        Serdyukov was dismissed in 2012. 10 years have passed.
        Moreover, the Parquet Marshal was given a budget several times larger than that of Serdyukov. But Shoigu has a better PR department, he is everywhere a hero on a white horse hi
  17. +7
    12 May 2022 07: 01
    Water flow is always a difficult compromise between the mass of an armored vehicle and security, with the latter suffering the most.

    Seaworthiness - the ability of equipment to move on water in conditions of rough seas (in points) - I heard. Water flow? There is speed on the water. Why these invented terms?
    Or good profitability?
    For example, if the engines of the BMP-3 stop afloat and the water pumping valve is opened, then the intake waters will quickly send the car to the bottom.

    Or seawater inflow? What is this "intake water"?
    =====
    Armored vehicles will undoubtedly change. Only when those generals who are preparing for the last war die out. There are already new developments, and new ideas, and promising types ... Who will mass-produce them? Who will take responsibility for the impeccability of "novelty?"
    I don’t see such people ... Otherwise, the military would not ride on armor ...
  18. +2
    12 May 2022 07: 21
    I think most of what has been written is obvious to anyone who follows military conflicts, but in order to bring these ideas to life, money and love for the motherland and people are needed. Unfortunately, we have a shortage of both.
  19. +4
    12 May 2022 07: 30
    According to the author of the article, a well-armored version a la "Nona" ("Lotus") with a 160mm universal gun looms.
    1. 0
      12 May 2022 17: 30
      It seems that the option of special heavy assault brigades for storming cities and fortified areas with a wide specific set of weapons from self-propelled mortars and infantry fighting vehicles to heavy flamethrower systems, accompanied by heavy infantry and sappers, suggests itself.
  20. +5
    12 May 2022 07: 34
    All this is understandable .. but where is the BMPT Terminator. Why are they not attracted? Few? How long has it been since adoption?
    1. -6
      12 May 2022 10: 11
      Because you can put a car behind a BMP-2 tank, etc., and the effect will be the same. The BMPT appeared as a very niche vehicle for a task that any army can solve, and if so, then its acquisition is an action of non-obvious expediency, do not forget that 1 BMPT is minus 1 tank. In the world, which is typical, no one was particularly interested either.
      1. +1
        13 May 2022 08: 56
        These are two techniques instead of one. And somehow I don’t see a tank in front of the BMP, usually one armored personnel carrier leaves. BMPT is just right for cleaning and supporting tanks.
  21. +12
    12 May 2022 07: 39
    Tank and motorized rifle companies were destroyed during an unsuccessful attempt to cross the river (although it is not clear whose ...). Intelligence shortcomings? No UAV facilities? IMHO With this kind of warfare, the tanks will soon run out ...

    Read more at: https://avia.pro/news/tankovaya-i-motostrelkovaya-roty-unichtozheny-vo-vremya-neudachnoy-popytki-perepravy-cherez
    1. +5
      12 May 2022 08: 23
      The operation is going according to plan.
    2. +3
      12 May 2022 08: 55
      OBS lies that Seversky Donets, Belogorovka. Belonging to BT can be tried to guess three times
      1. -1
        12 May 2022 10: 10
        Quote: Engineer
        OBS lies that Seversky Donets, Belogorovka. Belonging to BT can be tried to guess three times

        Is it in those parts where the Aerospace Forces recently reported on the destruction of the second crossing, built by the Armed Forces of Ukraine?
        1. +3
          12 May 2022 10: 43
          In those parts where the RF Armed Forces recently broke through the defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and crossed the Seversky Donets
          https://topwar.ru/196025-rossijskie-vojska-prorvali-oboronu-vsu-v-rajone-belogorovki-forsirovav-severskij-donec.html
    3. +1
      12 May 2022 10: 22
      It looks like an air strike on a cluster of vehicles, while shell craters are not visible on the shore, and they are not visible in other photos (except for holes in the pontoon). Perhaps the helicopter attack and all the equipment was knocked out by ATGMs. The accumulation of equipment in spite of all safety requirements is also surprising. Again, the helicopters could knock everything out before the vehicles left.

      And I don't see a single corpse nearby. It is unlikely that everything was removed, or the equipment was already abandoned.
      1. +1
        12 May 2022 14: 12
        More like a cluster munition with cumulative submunitions. Something like "Tochka-U" or "Smerch".
      2. +2
        12 May 2022 14: 38
        The accumulation of equipment in spite of all safety requirements is also surprising.

        Most likely, the accumulation turned out to be that they hit the car at the exit from the pontoon, because there was nowhere to go on the bridge. We started to go around. They could have tied up. Or they broke, overtaking each other, from the fact that the pontoon began to sink. So they crowded at the exit and got hit.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. -1
      13 May 2022 21: 11
      there in other photographs there are a lot of "floating" MTLBs and BMPs. The problem is not that the equipment does not float, but the mistake of the command, which allowed the concentration of equipment in the area of ​​​​the crossing in the presence of an artillery threat to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as well as the lack of artillery cover for counter-battery combat and appropriate reconnaissance.
      Unfortunately, I often observe the actions of our troops as if they were on maneuvers ... retribution overtakes careless commanders
      1. -4
        13 May 2022 21: 13
        13. 05. 2022 Yuriy Podolyaka if you jump on a rake all the time, there will be only new cones
  22. +1
    12 May 2022 07: 47
    Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
    I think that experience is being studied.
    Did you have any previous experience? Afghan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, wasn't experience enough?
    1. -7
      12 May 2022 09: 04
      There is no one, only experience, a variety of theaters of warfare cannot be compared and indiscriminately applied
      1. +2
        12 May 2022 09: 09
        Can situations be simulated?
        1. +2
          12 May 2022 09: 19
          You can simulate as much as you like, always smoothly on paper, but in reality often things go wrong, until unfortunately it is impossible to simulate the actions of a person, what he has in his head at a given period of time ..
          It would seem that they took Grozny twice, the experience is huge and many veterans and participants still serve in evil, but I saw a video of how a unit of our marines in Mariupol crossed the street, not wide at all, so they lost a fighter out of the blue .. it would seem it is written in blood how this thing is, so again on the same rake
          1. +8
            12 May 2022 10: 36
            This is one of Filatov's videos from the military chronicle. He thought for a long time whether to upload it or not, the guy still died later.
            1. -1
              12 May 2022 11: 10
              Yes, that's the video I meant.
          2. +4
            12 May 2022 11: 39
            It's just that you need to not only break bricks with your head, but also think. As a child, I had a book where the main character served in the Airborne Forces and there was a wonderful phrase of the foreman "without the strength of the mind, we do not need the strength of the body."
  23. +15
    12 May 2022 07: 50
    Experience must be studied and both modern technology and modern tactical methods must be introduced, but this is under normal conditions. We won't have that.
    We have several parallel realities.
    In one reality, dough cutters and mediocrity in power, who create wunderwaffles for show and sawing, and themselves produce what they can, that is, long-mastered Soviet systems, with a slight modernization and name change. At the same time, neither they nor their children or relatives will under any circumstances fight on this technique.
    In another reality, our soldiers and officers are given not what they need, but what they could do.
    These people do not intersect anywhere and in no way, because the first never give a damn about the interests of the second, and as long as this is the case, everything will remain as it is, window dressing at the parade and old Soviet equipment in the troops.
    1. +7
      12 May 2022 11: 41
      And then there are all sorts of biathlons, which, in my opinion, are not an equivalent replacement for normal military exercises.
      1. +3
        12 May 2022 12: 00
        NATO competitions are not at all similar to our biathlon.
    2. 0
      12 May 2022 14: 02
      You forgot a few more realities wink
  24. +8
    12 May 2022 07: 59
    Why are BMPTs not used in urban battles? Why were they created? To support tanks in urban battles! They made a party of them, conducted exercises in the steppe with the infantry and disappeared. BMPTs will replace both armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles in support in urban combat. Four pairs of eyes are better than one. Thermal imagers, of course, regretted it, but it will be useful. These are existing machines. What happens next is not soon. And now the BMPT is in battle. Pick up from exhibitions and help the guys.
    1. +1
      12 May 2022 08: 25
      KAZs seem to be needed after all, we often saw how columns of armored vehicles (without infantry) were shot from an ambush from anti-tank systems. Nothing else will save, except that the infantry is ahead of the tanks ...

      https://avia.pro/news/shvedskiy-granatomyot-carl-gustaf-naskvoz-probil-bronyu-tanka
    2. +5
      12 May 2022 09: 06
      The largest BMPT fleet in the army of Kazakhstan + Algeria signed a contract for 200 pieces if I'm not mistaken. And single BMPTs in the RF NE do not play a role.
  25. -7
    12 May 2022 08: 20
    "All conflicts proceeded according to the principle of "industrial power against the natives with guns."
    Based on this, is it not necessary to prepare for a full-scale war? Or at least to meet with an equal opponent?
    1. Cars. Mine protection is good if there are no mine clearing machines. Bulletproof protection from what, from RPGs? The blessing of them in Ukraine to a fig and more. "Tiger", which was developed for the Arabs, how multi-purpose it can be good. As a scout, he cannot swim. Yes, and its cross-country ability in Europe, only on the roads. In this regard, any BMD and BMP will give odds. Nice anti-guerrilla toy.
    2. BMP and BMD. You can hang armor, but they will stop swimming. And if the enemy is equal, will he really allow you to build a pontoon bridge? Smelt on rafts? “The training of the personnel should be at the level. For example, if the BMP-3’s engines stop afloat and the water pumping valve is opened, then the intake water will quickly send the car to the bottom. Every driver in a stressful situation on the water will remember about valves open? It is not machines that are fighting, but people.
    3. Tanks. Who would argue that 125 mm is better than 152.
    Technique cannot be made universal. So it is better to form heavy units (like WWII - heavy breakthrough regiments IS-2), and so on. etc. And counting on the natives is stupid.
  26. +7
    12 May 2022 08: 25
    Our guys will continue to die on the ancient T-72B and BMP-1 and 2.
  27. +3
    12 May 2022 08: 29
    Javelin turned out to be shit, tanks need all-round active protection and infantry support. For battles in the city, the heirs of the shilka are needed, which can suppress the enemy on any floor of the building with a high density of fire. The Ukrainian armored personnel carrier 3S with a double-barreled 23 mm cannon and a high rate of fire proved to be a very formidable weapon.
    But most importantly, we need drones, we need loitering ammunition in huge quantities. We have good tanks.
    1. +4
      12 May 2022 08: 36
      Heh, why KAZ when it’s better to weld corners and stripes and everything will be ok! By the way, tanks with welded superstructures over the tower disappeared from sight, I wonder where they are ...
      1. +5
        12 May 2022 10: 48
        t 90 breakthrough. photo from dill. yesterday they boasted that they burned our newest tank.
        1. +3
          12 May 2022 12: 44
          The conflict in the SAR and the experience of the Jews showed that ATGMs of the 2nd generation with a caliber of 150mm pierce everything that can ride. Relics there shaft.
          Saves only KAZ and fire and explosion safety measures .....
          And with the widespread use of artillery and anti-tank systems, they could knock out the T-90M calmly. It is important that with the crew?!
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. +1
          12 May 2022 22: 17
          According to the explosion in the video, it turns out that there was no ammo in the tank, but there was explosives in the MTO.
      2. -1
        13 May 2022 10: 46
        They are over
    2. +3
      12 May 2022 08: 42
      We need canister ammunition for remote detonation. Large caliber for the front line, and small caliber to literally fly into the window!
      1. +9
        12 May 2022 09: 13
        As well as corrected ammunition for Grad, Tornado, including laser guidance from UAVs. Where is Hermes? It seems that the rearmament took place only on paper.
        1. +2
          13 May 2022 07: 57
          All rearmament is determined by effective gaskets between the army and production! And to be honest, it’s the hucksters in power and the opponents of Russia on the ground, who were partly raised by the president!
      2. 0
        13 May 2022 07: 38
        This is shrapnel.
  28. +4
    12 May 2022 08: 31
    Quote: Chikua
    Tank and motorized rifle companies were destroyed during an unsuccessful attempt to cross the river (although it is not clear whose ...)

    This is a consequence of the appearance in the enemy of modern Western shells with an active reactive component. We were able to inflict a fire defeat on our troops.
  29. 0
    12 May 2022 08: 38
    One can agree with the author on only one thing: BMD must be abandoned just like parachute landing of large masses of troops with BM.
    As for heavy equipment, heavy equipment has serious problems with mobility - just look at the BTR-4 stuck in the mud. In addition, heavy does not mean protected - it is very doubtful that the German 40-ton galosh Puma, Boxer - has a better level of protection than an armored personnel carrier -90.
    In other words, heavy equipment is forced to move along the roads, along a completely predictable route with a known result. Yes, and the issues of resource and fuel supply in relation to heavy equipment are much more difficult to solve. How much does that 720-horsepower Boxer engine eat?
    On the other hand, the presence of an assault tank with a 152-mm mortar -PU of guided weapons is beyond doubt. And all these dances with 30-mm whistles on BMPT-sabotage. And then the question arises, who in the Russian Federation determines the promising directions for the development of BTT? it’s Rostec, of course, and everything becomes clear here. It’s enough to recall a bunch of ceremonial samples like the “O” platform, attempts to replace the BMP-3 weapon system with short-barreled 57mm stumps, KAMAZ consisting of foreign-made units, useless Derivation, sheathed robots roofing iron.
    1. 0
      12 May 2022 08: 57
      Is it with some kind of joy that Derivation has become worthless?
      1. +4
        12 May 2022 09: 59
        She was a worthless cut.
  30. +7
    12 May 2022 08: 39
    Finally, the main players on the battlefield are tanks. The experience of the assault on Mariupol showed the insufficiency of the power of the main caliber of a tank gun. No matter how many experts argue, a 152 mm gun is capable of making much more than a 125 mm gun.

    There were cases when, during a special operation, 152-mm self-propelled guns were put on direct fire. A larger caliber was also in demand for mortars. It is advisable to have self-propelled guns with a 160-mm mortar.
    1. +9
      12 May 2022 10: 10
      There were cases when, during a special operation, 152-mm self-propelled guns were put on direct fire. A larger caliber was also in demand for mortars.

      This is a return to the past. High-precision weapons of lower power destroy the enemy more effectively. If you just bring down all the buildings in a row, then of course a large caliber is preferable.
      1. 0
        13 May 2022 20: 29
        The past has proven in practice the effectiveness of the means used.
  31. +4
    12 May 2022 08: 40
    In order to massively launch the replacement of military equipment, it is necessary to nationalize the entire industry and exclude free prices with effective gold managers who determine the cost, and hence the expediency!
    1. +11
      12 May 2022 09: 09
      Yes, you are an extremist! And yachts, palaces, etc. for what shisha to build / buy? Again, you need to place something in the banks of the West, otherwise dear partners will be offended ....
      1. +8
        12 May 2022 10: 00
        In vain you pounced on a person, well, he doesn’t understand that without yachts, whores and golden toilet bowls, they don’t win wars.
  32. +6
    12 May 2022 08: 54
    I don't think much will change. The warehouses are full of T-72s and BMP-2s. So they will modernize them in the 10th round. The economics of war. No, of course, a certain number of Armats and Kurgans will still reach the Army, but in practice this will not affect anything.
    1. +4
      12 May 2022 10: 02
      They slander that in-line engines for Kurgans and new wheeled armored personnel carriers are the essence of French Renault. Even the Tiger engine of the 5th series has key foreign-made components, such as a fuel system.
  33. +3
    12 May 2022 08: 56
    A tank with a 152-mm cannon is perhaps better suited for storming a city, but, alas, it loses sharply in a tank battle. Because he will not have the right to even one miss.
    1. -5
      12 May 2022 10: 21
      Why? Install the machine and it will be fine. See how fast the Archer self-propelled guns fire
  34. +5
    12 May 2022 09: 06
    I don’t understand something, is this article about the same as “how to change armored vehicles after 2008, after Syria, after something else”?
  35. +18
    12 May 2022 09: 24
    Lessons from Ukraine: how armored vehicles will change after the Russian special operation
    The short answer is "no way".
    The industry likes to "repeatedly upgrade and enhance the combat capabilities" of the T72/T80/T90, BMP1-2 and BTR80/82. Either they’ll put a new sight, then they’ll put gratings (they used to put them on the sides, now they’re making progress from above). R&D, R&D are coming - and nice.
    Why so - it will be clear from the article further.

    All conflicts proceeded according to the principle of "industrial power against the natives with guns."
    - the author, like the entire military-industrial complex of the USSR, preferred not to notice the Arab-Israeli wars (there were no less tanks, so to speak, than near Prokhorovka in some places, but who cares) and the Iran-Iraq war and the Gulf War. As a last resort, they noticed that "Arabs are not warriors" (very debatable). The pushing of the "non-pushed", for example, BC into the fuel right next to the crew, took place at an accelerated pace. And sometimes - BC in fuel! Buck rack is brilliant, IMHO.
    So that the tankers would not be bored at all, the BCs in quick-burning shells (don't be bored, tankers!) were placed as tightly as possible throughout the habitable compartment. With luck, such a wonderful design allows you to throw a tank turret right up to the fifth floor of an ordinary house!
    All this led to the fact that in the early 72s the T1980 was described by a potential adversary as technically reliable, with not very good SLA (SLA is an understatement) and very fire hazardous.

    the concept required not only the ability to swim, but air transportability. Moreover, the machines should not only be placed in transport aircraft without problems, but also parachuted.
    as they say, experience is experience, and it is better not to touch our concept. IMHO, has the "continuous waterfowl" of the BMP / BTR ever come in handy? Ok, reconnaissance, individual units (marine infantry) may be sailing somewhere, but it has come to the point that "we see the apotheosis of this approach" - the infantry prefers to ride on BMP / armored personnel carriers, and not inside.
    Where did the cars land in real hostilities ?! "The next atavism, of course, are the requirements for parachute landing of airborne equipment" - not an atavism, but a glorious tradition!

    In general, the USSR Armed Forces no longer exist, and the "concept" will cost a lot for more than one generation of infantry.

    Motorists also did not massively switch to armored bonneted trucks - the most effective means against mine warfare.
    here we must remember one more concept - "women still give birth." By the way, women: do you know that one child in a family is somehow not enough?

    In fairness, NATO also did not particularly speed up the modernization of armored vehicles. Moreover, they actually overslept the appearance in Russia of the promising Armata platform.
    - hmm, is this about the same NATO that is not afraid of Almaty from the parade, but puts KAZs from real ATGMs indiscriminately?
    I inform you specifically for those "who are in the tank": for "just in case of a fire", NATO has 130 mm and 140 mm as an option for upgrading the tank fleet. Well, and "roof-breakers" / Spikes LR, which are put on everything that is possible.

    However, most of the motorized rifle units are equipped with equipment of the BTR-80 series that is outdated in every sense.
    - you can write it like that, instead of my "short answer NO".

    It remains only to wait for the appearance in the troops, only not fragmentary, but massive according to the principle of replacing each BMP-1, BMP-2 and BMP-3 with T-15. Yes, it's expensive, but apparently it's not possible any other way.
    the fact that even the author of KAZ does not wait for the modernization of existing equipment is correct. First of all, don't deceive yourself. Well, if in the third month of the CBO, what is possible is not done, the chances of "just waiting" are equal to zero.
    Well, T15 and Afghanite-Malachite can be seen more than once in parades!
    1. +22
      12 May 2022 10: 10
      Quote: Wildcat
      The short answer is "no way".

      )))
      The lesson of Ukraine is the war of the RF Armed Forces with a first-class enemy (NATO / China) is impossible and should be excluded from consideration for an indefinite period. But for such a lesson, you can get under the tribunal.

      And as for the smaller lessons - it's ridiculous to say. There, the lessons of WWII have not been learned - judging by the number of abandoned undamaged equipment, since the time of Rivne - Lutsk - Brody, the logistics of mechanized units have not progressed very much.

      What can we say about later lessons - Arab-Israeli, Iraq 1 and 2, "war on terror". Useless conversation.
    2. +16
      12 May 2022 10: 14
      Quote: Wildcat
      Where did the cars land in real hostilities ?! "The next atavism, of course, are the requirements for parachute landing of airborne equipment" - not an atavism, but a glorious tradition!

      The most uncomfortable question for the guardians of the glorious traditions of parachute landing is the request to indicate who will parachute all this economy. And a reminder that the capacity of the same Il-76 in terms of personnel and equipment is somewhat different (as well as the fact that the equipment also needs fuel). smile
  36. +10
    12 May 2022 09: 42
    And how much money has already been spent on landing equipment. And more and more new topics are being sawed. Well, it's clear that it won't be needed. And he fights as a result of the Airborne Forces practically without armor.
    As for buoyancy, some light equipment should have it. The same bridgehead should be quickly captured before the crossing was established.
  37. -12
    12 May 2022 10: 02
    Not an article, but another whining in the style of "sit thicker under armor."

    As for parachute landing, the question is not so much in weight, but in the strength of the chassis. At the same time, air transportability issues are relevant for any equipment, and if there is a limit in the form of the same Mi-26 and Il-76, then it will be tied to it in any case.

    As for swimming, if the author was not shown such crossings, this does not mean that they do not exist, because there are countless rivers and lakes in Europe, and for a tactical group the ability to cross a river of 50 meters is a very big plus. Even if you have to go without tanks and trucks, tactically it may be necessary.

    Expensive - it's not just money, it means that something is missing somewhere, you can make an infantry fighting vehicle weighing 50 tons, only then many who now have at least a BMP-2 will have to transfer to the "tiger", and and then the UAZ. Otherwise, such a technique would have been mass in the 70s. It is possible that structures weighing 30-35 tons with armament of the BMP-3 level will appear. There will be some sets of mounted armor to take RPGs head-on. Although the rich Americans made a "striker" out there, there is no tower at all, the shooter sticks out his head, will someone believe that they do not have enough money for a heavy infantry fighting vehicle? Or does the idea have other flaws?

    At the same time, one must understand that a 20-ton machine creates much fewer problems than a 50-ton machine. It will pass through any road bridges, it is much easier to pull it out and tow it.

    According to the participants in the events, it is the thermal imaging guidance channel that will make it possible to more accurately and with less losses destroy militants behind the walls of houses.


    I didn't study physics at school.

    No matter how many experts argue, a 152 mm gun is capable of making much more than a 125 mm gun.


    And then there are few howitzers in the troops. If in Mariupol there was an opportunity to smash everything into rubble, then they would have smashed it, and no "apocalypse" tanks would have been needed.
    1. +11
      12 May 2022 10: 23
      Quote: EvilLion
      As for parachute landing, the question is not so much in weight, but in the strength of the chassis. At the same time, air transportability issues are relevant for any equipment, and if there is a limit in the form of the same Mi-26 and Il-76, then it will be tied to it in any case.

      So no one is against the air transportability of airborne equipment. The opposite is true only for - especially considering that for the past 60 years, the landing of the Airborne Forces in all conflicts has been carried out exclusively by landing. The equipment of the Airborne Forces as a mobile reserve must be able to be transported by BTA aircraft.
      But why squeeze this technique into the Procrustean bed of parachute landing, where the performance characteristics are determined not by the dimensions of the cargo compartment of the aircraft and its carrying capacity, but by the parachute system (which, moreover, itself weighs a ton and a half)? Why, for the sake of a parachute, cut the firepower of airborne units, depriving them of normal artillery and air defense? Wouldn't it be better to leave several paratrooper units in the airborne division, and re-equip the main forces with air transport vehicles? All the same, according to the experience of previous wars, the Airborne Forces were used as light elite motorized infantry. In Afghanistan, the Airborne Forces generally had to be re-equipped and reorganized according to the army states.
    2. 0
      12 May 2022 10: 58
      I will support. How can one refuse buoyancy in a country where every 3-4 km there is a water barrier, I don’t understand. As well as relying on a large caliber for tanks. The author forgot that tanks are at war with tanks, and it is not worth absolutizing the high-explosive fragmentation action of a tank gun projectile. In addition, let me remind the author that war is a continuation of politics and economy. Therefore, a massive transition to "supertanks" can leave the whole country without trousers. At the same time, other types of troops also require funding.
    3. +6
      12 May 2022 11: 28
      And then there are few howitzers in the troops.

      There is a big difference between self-propelled guns and tanks.
      I didn't study physics at school.

      Specify what are you talking about? The fact that the accumulation of militants behind the Khrushchev wall is not visible through a simple thermal imager?
      At the same time, one must understand that a 20-ton machine creates much fewer problems than a 50-ton machine.

      I'll tell you a secret, UAZ creates even fewer problems, MTLB or BMP-1. With such logic, it is generally possible to attack on horseback. No problems with fuel and spare parts.
      As for swimming, if the author was not shown such crossings, this does not mean that they do not exist, because there are countless rivers and lakes in Europe, and for a tactical group the ability to cross a river of 50 meters is a very big plus.

      The ability to swim and it is possible to overcome a water barrier by swimming is not the same thing at all. Yes, there are many 50-70 meter reservoirs in the Russian Federation and Europe, but how many of them are "equipped" with the corresponding banks? So that you can enter the water without any problems and get out on the shore. You still find advantages in the ability of tanks to walk along the bottom. This is generally an option that no one really needs, from the word at all. For teaching only.
      1. -4
        12 May 2022 12: 34
        The fact that the accumulation of militants behind the Khrushchev wall is not visible through a simple thermal imager?


        And the wall became permeable to IR radiation?

        There is a big difference between self-propelled guns and tanks.


        But no one tells you that the howitzer should follow the tank, although this option is also possible and on long streets it can be difficult to oppose something to it.

        Yes, there are many 50-70 meter reservoirs in the Russian Federation and Europe, but how many of them are "equipped" with the corresponding banks? So that you can enter the water without any problems and get out on the shore.


        I have one near the city. Moreover, there is a road with a bridge through which tanks will not pass due to weight restrictions, on one side of the road there is a mountain, on the other a field, climb in and out as much as you like, then there is a lake with swans, also flat. The river does not necessarily flow along the bottom of the ravine. In the ravines, there are just rivers of spitting.
      2. +8
        12 May 2022 15: 00
        With such logic, it is generally possible to attack on horseback. No problems with fuel and spare parts.

        But problems with fodder, watering and horseshoes. So it's best to walk. laughing good
        And the rest I absolutely agree with you.
    4. -3
      12 May 2022 17: 47
      And if you need to take Warsaw? I would not feel sorry for her as much as Mariupol. Why would you feel sorry for her. Every great war must be accompanied by the partition of Poland. Tradition first!
      1. 0
        13 May 2022 10: 49
        Did you feel sorry for Mariupol?
  38. 0
    12 May 2022 10: 05
    It seems to me that there are not enough and are not being mastered by ground-based controlled robots that could act at the spearhead of an attack to open fire positions and suppress, so that manpower and equipment could approach the enemy in a second echelon. The future belongs to robotics in the conditions of a small number of the entire group.
    1. 0
      12 May 2022 12: 35
      Ahead of the rest of the planet, in fact, only such systems are still 10 years away, according to our and American estimates.
  39. -2
    12 May 2022 10: 13
    You need to love the country and the business you are doing, and steal less, and then everything will work out
  40. +4
    12 May 2022 10: 14
    Interesting article, thanks.
    - why they mentioned the KV tanks, I did not understand. It would seem that a dead end branch? They had a potential that was not realized in fact during the war. They did not become "tigers" of 1941.
    - Forgive me, the airborne troops, but the parachute landing should generally become history. There are no examples of successful parachute operations in the last 50 years. If you know - bring, I will be grateful. Naturally, I do not mean the abandonment of small groups of saboteurs and scouts.
    - mobility should be understood as the possibility of air transportation (but not landing!) by real-life aircraft and helicopters. Plus, binding, where possible, to the weight and size requirements of a sea container, under which all civilian logistics routes are sharpened.
    - the old weapon is not so bad, but only new effective counter-measures are being invented against it, from weapons to tactics of use. Therefore, it is difficult to count on success with the technique and tactics of 30-50 years ago if the enemy is full-fledged, and not partisans.
  41. +6
    12 May 2022 10: 21
    A bit contrived and naive.
    And about Armata, and about the 150 gun, and about the western "missed" ...

    IMHO, it wasn't like that. Until the age of 14, by and large, everything suited everyone, they did not particularly allocate money for development, until someone began to boast of 2000 armats, hyper-sound, a petrel, Peresvet, Poseidon and Uranus.

    And then the military-industrial complex of NATO cheerfully rubbed his hands from the swollen military budgets, said mentally, oh well done (probably), and began to drive his developments ....

    And Petrels, Poseidons, 2000 Armats, Chechen buggies, super-high-speed helicopters, nuclear aircraft carriers - have remained somewhere there - in history ...
  42. 0
    12 May 2022 10: 31
    Where the tank is forced to make 2-3 shots at a building with entrenched militants, one “howitzer” caliber shell is enough

    But is there no chance that the matter is in the absence of suitable ammunition? An HE shell detonates immediately when it hits a wall and does not properly damage those who are hiding behind it. Armor-piercing wall breaks through, but has a small barrier effect. And here something intermediate would be useful: so that he could break through the wall and explode already inside.
    1. +6
      12 May 2022 10: 39
      There and in open areas there are questions about the HE shell, not to mention remote detonation.
      something intermediate would be useful here: so that he could break through the wall and explode already inside
      everything has long been invented, but we do not need it, IMHO:

      Maybe the Israeli tankers will comment on the shells (if they are still here)?


    2. +1
      12 May 2022 15: 06
      HE projectile detonates immediately when it hits a wall and does not properly damage those who take cover behind it.

      Wrong.
      Tank high-explosive fragmentation projectile has three options:
      - high-explosive (with switching the fuse to a delayed action);
      - high-explosive fragmentation (without such a switch);
      - fragmentation (without switching with the fuse protective cap removed).
      1. 0
        12 May 2022 16: 14
        Is this about the existing ammunition of our tanks? 3OF26 or how to correctly (I don’t understand well).
        1. +1
          12 May 2022 17: 10
          Yes. It is the good old 3OF26.
      2. +2
        12 May 2022 20: 08
        hi
        Could you please comment because this is the only thing that came across:
        1. "First of all, the mass-energy characteristics of the projectile are outdated. The projectile has a clearly overestimated mass Q=23 kg (relative mass Cq=Q/d3=11,8 kg/dm3, where d is the caliber, dm) and relatively low (IMHO recourse , for OFS this is not correct, speed is secondary, the main thing is the mass of explosives) muzzle velocity 850 m/s (muzzle energy 8,3 MJ). It has long been known that for tank guns the relative mass Cq must be less than 10 kg/dm3, and the muzzle velocity must be greater than 1000 m/s. With Cq=10 kg/dm3, the mass of a 125 mm projectile will be 19,5 kg.
        The filling factor of the 3OF26 projectile is unjustifiably low (the ratio of the mass of the explosive charge (3,4 kg) to the mass of the projectile). It is 3,4/23=0,15. It is well known from theory that the optimal filling factor is within 0,20┘0,25.

        Unsuccessful choice of steel for the body of the projectile. Chromium steel 45X1 has unsatisfactory fragmentation properties. Alloying with chromium, on the one hand, leads to the suppression of brittle radial fracture and the predominant development of ductile shear cracks, which increases the relative perimeter of the fragment cross section, on the other hand, leads to the formation of a large number of elongated fragments (“saber formation”). To date, no attempts have been made to use new high-fragmentation silicon steels in the projectile, for example, 80G2S (pat. No. 2153024 of the Russian Federation, author T.F. Volynova, V.A. Odintsov) or 80S2 (pat. No. 2368691 of the Russian Federation, author V. A. Odintsov, L.R. Botvina). Moreover, the first steel is already successfully used in the 100UOF3 19-mm projectile of the BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicle. The choice of explosive cannot be considered particularly successful either (composition A-IX-2 - hexogen/aluminum powder, 80/20). A rather high aluminum content leads to a significant decrease in the crushing (blasting) properties of explosives. Testing the combination of Art. 45X1 / A-IX-2 using a standard fragmentation cylinder No. 12 RSFC (Russian Standard Fragmenting Cylinder) leads to an unsatisfactory assessment (the number of fragments with a mass greater than 0,25 grams N0,25 = 740, the relative content of the middle fraction is from 1 to 4 grams MC=0,23, class IV, unsatisfactory crushing). "

        2. For remote detonation, there was only data about a certain Ainet for the T90, but there is no mention of its deliveries.

        3.
        Tank high-explosive fragmentation projectile has three options:
        - high-explosive (with switching the fuse to a delayed action);
        - high-explosive fragmentation (without such a switch);
        - fragmentation (without switching with the fuse protective cap removed).

        IMHO, I came across information that for a tank in an urban battle, a typical target could be behind a typical reinforced concrete wall. Those videos that I came across show that the 125 mm OFS tank gun "takes out" such a plate.

        That is, the claims could only be on the plates "but it's better to explode after breaking through." But IMHO, and so the stove and everyone behind it fly away.
        Is this true?
  43. -4
    12 May 2022 10: 43
    highly controversial opinions.
    Ukraine has once again shown that no tanks will be needed without air supremacy.
    1. +2
      12 May 2022 10: 56
      What are you talking about? Dominance, at least in the Donbass, seems to be there.
  44. +1
    12 May 2022 10: 49
    Tanks are not new weapons. Even at the dawn of the appearance of tanks on the battlefield, they were subdivided. Heavy and light. Years have passed. There were different ways of development. Wheels tried to attach. Lots of towers. Several caterpillars. Giants like a mouse. It's not a question of versatility. And in the tactics of application. Mistakes are due to the stupidity of those who use them. A tank is a tracked gun with frontal armor. Attempts to build up armor in all places will affect the mobility and patency of the tank. This is the path of the MAUS tank. Guderian, using light and medium tanks. He conquered Europe, and reached Moscow. And attempts to use heavy tanks exhausted the industry. The front led to a fuel starvation. Outcome, defeat.
  45. -3
    12 May 2022 11: 06
    Well, to summarize, then the logical conclusion from the words of the author is that assault tanks with 152 and without KAZ should be introduced separately. And reorganize the Airborne Forces into the Airborne Forces, purely landing landing. And there, not only BMD and BTR-D will fall under the distribution, if one horseradish is shoveled by a helicopter, then folding butts and other lightweights are not needed.
    I don’t know, maybe it has to revise the balance in the direction of increasing the airborne assault, but IMHO the classic airborne assault, parachute - you still have to leave it - gives very great opportunities.
  46. -1
    12 May 2022 11: 20
    very mediocrely attended to the experience of the war in Afghanistan.
    - How do you imagine the alteration or disposal of a huge amount of equipment? It's like switching to a new cartridge, easier said than done.
    It was the experience of mountain warfare that forced the designers to provide the main caliber - the 30-mm 2A42 cannon with a high elevation angle
    - yes you, what?!
    and not the fight against helicopters and the emergence of new types of Western technology?
    These are all Wishlist, on Utube some have already taken up the design of military equipment, like they know better and they know everything hi
  47. -5
    12 May 2022 11: 41
    Quote: Chikua
    Heh, why KAZ when it’s better to weld corners and stripes and everything will be ok! By the way, tanks with welded superstructures over the tower disappeared from sight, I wonder where they are ...

    So That's why they disappeared That the javelin turned out to be not such a wunderwaffe. When shooting with a canopy, it basically gets into the engine compartment. Unpleasant but not fatal.
  48. +2
    12 May 2022 11: 59
    HZ, IMHO my opinion. You can talk as much as you like about the introduction of new products in the army, but until you start fighting, you won’t understand 100% whether it’s right or wrong. Now there are hostilities, which had no analogues since the Second World War. The war in Iraq doesn't count because the US's technical superiority was overwhelming. The leadership of the Red Army also did not immediately adapt to the offensive strike of the Wehrmacht, and then they themselves learned offensive actions. If before the offensive went on wide fronts, with preliminary artillery preparation, in modern realities it is not feasible. Drones are used for detection, drones for air attack, kamikaze, + the use of precision-guided munitions. The doctrine of military operations is changing, and accordingly the role of armored vehicles will change. For example, the action of the armed forces as part of the BTG, etc. According to urban combat, this is the most difficult type of combat. And the presence of a larger caliber will not give a significant effect. 125 mm high-explosive fragmentation behind the eyes is enough to break through the walls of houses. It was in Chechnya and in Syria and in Mariupol. Moreover, the task of taking Mariupol is not to destroy the entire urban infrastructure to zero, but to knock out firing points, although it was possible to throw off a couple of FABs and not at home. Which of the existing armies of the World now has the same experience of taking cities? As for equipment, in fact, in all the armies that are in service with that they howl, there are no 100% modern models in service in mass quantities due to the high cost, even the United States with their budget.
  49. -3
    12 May 2022 12: 17
    First of all, all the cardinal measures to reformat are costs that are unlikely to be lifting for us at the moment (and probably in the short term, too). Under such conditions, it is necessary to find ways to modularize equipment - through standard modifications for "body kits" and the creation of these same "body kits" - added or removed depending on the combat mission.
    Such a solution, of course, is not without drawbacks - such a composition is not ideal from the point of view of the survival of a significant part of such body kits, however, it will allow us to determine in a fairly short time which solutions are MOST RELEVANT in REAL conditions. And depending on this, already issue a task for embedding certain modular solutions on an ongoing basis in the designed equipment.
    Devices outside military equipment are somehow disabled in combat conditions, so the requirement for the ability to replace these devices in field repair conditions in importance may even exceed the requirements for the security of such devices, because security does not mean that the device can partially lose functional (and it will still have to be replaced).

    So in the conditions of a limited budget, I see the most optimal solution to expand the modularity of existing designs and the range of these modules.

    As for urban battles, the question of the suitability of equipment for them is already really rising to its full height. It is unlikely to solve this problem with one large caliber - perhaps a precessional approach is needed here. For example, to detect the exact location of hidden manpower, it is probably worth developing an interconnected cascade of detection tools - to combine a directional microphone, a thermal imager, and some other means capable of detecting enemy manpower through obstacles.
    At the program level, this entire array of data is used to determine the probability of finding a target behind an obstacle. Complete with these tools, it would be worthwhile to use small-caliber weapons for exclusively armor-piercing or concrete-piercing ammunition designs, capable of "working" on targets behind obstacles and not requiring bulky guns and ammunition.
    Perhaps this would partially solve the problem of urban combat without a thorough infrastructure destruction and unbearably long hostilities.
  50. +1
    12 May 2022 12: 20
    All questions will be closed again by Javelin.-2...etc.
    And chicken coops on tanks talk about .. "studying" NATO weapons ...
  51. +6
    12 May 2022 12: 40
    BMD-5, taking into account the Ukrainian experience, should give up the ability to swim and jump with a parachute.

    Then it is not needed at all....there is the BMP-3....
  52. -3
    12 May 2022 12: 45
    The BMP-1987, adopted for service in 3, repeated at a higher level the concept of its predecessors - high firepower coupled with high mobility, atavistic ability to swim...
    Question to the author: why is it atavistic? The geographical relief of the country and Western Europe is replete with a large number of rivers and reservoirs. By the way, the current Northern Military District is an example of the fact that the troops seem to have forgotten how to use floating equipment (or it is simply not ready) to overcome water obstacles using self-propelled water - they are waiting for the crossing to be established, and this is a loss of the tempo of attacking actions. In the official video chronicle of the database they did not show a single episode of overcoming water obstacles afloat sad
    1. 0
      12 May 2022 13: 28
      Quote: Radikal
      the troops seem to have forgotten how to use floating equipment (or it is simply not ready) to overcome water obstacles using self-floating

      Perhaps the troops are simply not stupid enough to rush into an attack against fortified defenses with lightly armored vehicles without the support of tanks.

      A professional army has its advantages - contract soldiers are much more difficult to intimidate than conscripts.
  53. +3
    12 May 2022 12: 53
    Is there any information about the use of the Terminator or is it still being tested in exercises?
    1. +2
      12 May 2022 16: 33
      Do you need it, this armored vehicle? A project that is absolutely incompatible with reality.
  54. 0
    12 May 2022 13: 13
    Quote: Stas157
    . Lessons from Ukraine: how armored vehicles will change after the Russian special operation

    No way. An example of this is the advertised Armata - it is in parades, but it is not in the war. The old Soviet T-72 in the B3 modification is fighting.

    Tanks for combat are needed today, not when they are made. The second question is where to put what has already been made? By the way, this is all our salaries, pensions, kindergartens and schools. Irretrievably thrown away, if you had the right to decide. The modernization of the T-72 and the new T-14 are significantly different. Are you ready to live without a salary for a couple of years? Tell me, organize a movement like the one that existed during the Second World War.
    1. +3
      12 May 2022 14: 47
      Quote: Crispy
      The modernization of the T-72 and the new T-14 are significantly different. Are you ready to live without a salary for a couple of years?

      Stop talking nonsense. The cost of the Armata in serial production is stated by the manufacturer to be around $4 million. Thousand Armata - 4 billion dollars. Ten thousand Armata is not even 40 billion, but less, because with mass production the price will decrease.

      If you say that this is an unaffordable amount for the country, I will inform you:
      Net capital outflow from Russia in the first quarter of 2022 amounted to $64,2 billion.
  55. +1
    12 May 2022 13: 21
    The author did not mention the most important thing at all. KAZ. Nowadays, sending armored vehicles into battle without KAZ is a crime. Of course, I don’t have statistics, but I assume that our losses in tanks are mainly from anti-tank guns. In second place is most likely artillery, and only in third place are enemy tanks.

    Moreover, even Armatov’s Afghanit is already outdated. A modern KAZ must protect the upper hemisphere. Or at least the upper front “quarter sphere” of the tower. Afghanite, as far as I know, provides some protection only up to 30 degrees from the horizontal.
  56. +3
    12 May 2022 14: 11
    It's high time to change! Set up normal sights, thermal imagers, etc.. Expensive? They stole more, look at the yachts that are being squeezed out, you can go crazy, but for the price of this one yacht you can already build an Armat regiment.
  57. The comment was deleted.
    1. +3
      12 May 2022 15: 05
      Quote: nespich
      “through” the wall he sees?

      Not through the wall, but you can see someone who is hiding in the depths of the room and thinks that they won’t see him in the shadows. Again, sometimes it is enough to notice even a flashing head somewhere to detect a sniper or grenade launcher. And this can be seen much better on a thermal imager. Especially at night - even your head exposed above the windowsill glows on the thermal imager like a light bulb in the dark.
  58. -3
    12 May 2022 14: 22
    So far I’m reading in the “news” that we have broken up the pontoon crossing, they have broken down the pontoon crossing for us, and that water boundaries still remain quite an obstacle that sappers cannot always help overcome. Where did the author get the information that the ability of armored vehicles to swim is not currently being used? It is precisely what is needed to seize a bridgehead on the other side so that sappers can work in peace. And to speed up the crossing of the water barrier.
    Does the author imagine the design of a tank that is equally well protected on all sides? This was what KV was like at first (almost). It was not because of a good life that I had to go to strengthen the protection of the muzzle. But because it’s impossible to reliably protect the face.
    What use is the BMD-5 to the paratroopers, which cannot parachute with them? The fact that in our country both the Airborne Forces and the Marine Corps usually do not fight as landing forces is a separate matter.
    What really isn't useful right now is MRAP. Just a big target for a grenade launcher.
    1. +3
      12 May 2022 14: 55
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      It is precisely what is needed to seize a bridgehead on the other side so that sappers can work in peace.

      In order for the sappers to work calmly, they will have to seize a bridgehead with a radius of at least twenty kilometers. Because crossings are destroyed by artillery fire and MLRS. And enemy MLRS and artillery must be suppressed by our aircraft, drones, loitering ammunition, tactical missiles, artillery and MLRS. Which don’t necessarily need to swim to do this.
      1. 0
        13 May 2022 12: 09
        Just the other day there was a striking example that “they should”, but they don’t always choke. The enemy may also be smart, well covered by air defense and electronic warfare systems, may have long-range MLRS, tactical missile systems, etc. 20 km. - it's an hour's drive off-road. It's not fatal yet.
  59. kig
    0
    12 May 2022 15: 05
    Historical truth teaches that the army is preparing for a new war, mainly relying on the experience of the previous war. What kind of experience did we have? Afghanistan, Chechnya and Georgia? But now everything is different. It’s too early to draw conclusions, and in general, in the foreseeable future the situation may change dramatically. It will end... generals will receive orders, experts will finally criticize the technology, smart scientists will write dissertations, industry will argue “this is impossible”, some kind of compromise will be found, and the army will again be ready for the next war. On the same principles. There is nothing new in the world, everything has already happened.
  60. 0
    12 May 2022 16: 02
    Serfs don't need to fight! The lords still don’t give up palaces and yachts!
  61. The comment was deleted.
  62. -2
    12 May 2022 16: 32
    Quote: DenVB
    Quote: Crispy
    The modernization of the T-72 and the new T-14 are significantly different. Are you ready to live without a salary for a couple of years?

    Stop talking nonsense. The cost of the Armata in serial production is stated by the manufacturer to be around $4 million. Thousand Armata - 4 billion dollars. Ten thousand Armata is not even 40 billion, but less, because with mass production the price will decrease.

    If you say that this is an unaffordable amount for the country, I will inform you:
    Net capital outflow from Russia in the first quarter of 2022 amounted to $64,2 billion.

    Trillion Armat calculated how much it will cost? Blockheads like you can't explain a simple thing. The tank withdraws money from the budget irrevocably, without returning a penny. The tractor returns. He works, plows, builds roads, and so on... Moreover, the maintenance itself requires an additional cash injection. Don't know what MONEY is? Economists define this as labor equivalent. But labor producing a commodity that has all the properties of money. Money can turn into goods, and goods into money. Labor was spent on the production of the tank, money was paid for the material, and the manufacturing itself. But there is no product. Until the tank is sold. And in our case, only abroad. If they “sell” it to their own Ministry of Defense, then this is not a sale. The Moscow Region cannot turn a tank into money, and, therefore, in the hands of the Moscow Region, a tank is not a commodity. Cash is growing, but the goods are not arriving. This is inflation. Depreciation of money. The parity of the commodity supply with the money supply is being violated. While there are not many such “goods”, the budget can pay off the excess money supply. But, if, say, it is in the amount of 20-30% of the budget, then such an economy will definitely die. It follows that any state can handle only those weapons. which does not destroy the economy.
    Now make sure that capital does not flow out of the country. Hamburg rooster. You crow, but you don’t know a damn thing. And I can calculate the reduction in price per unit during serial, and, especially, mass production (do you know how they differ from one another?) with decent accuracy.
    1. +1
      12 May 2022 19: 02
      2 ways to solve the problem: 1. Sell a LOT of weapons for export for money 2. have such a peaceful economy that military expenses are not burdensome for it.
    2. 0
      13 May 2022 20: 58
      Lower your tone, you understand economics. The meaning of that comment was: the withdrawal of capital in a quarter is equivalent to the rearmament of the army in Almaty. Read first about the owners of the largest metallurgical and energy companies in the country. And about their withdrawal of capital.
      And then tell us about the tractors.
      Specifically about the owners of Rusal, for example. They definitely don’t need Almaty.
  63. The comment was deleted.
  64. 0
    12 May 2022 19: 09
    I don’t know how the armored vehicles will change, although they have their own version. But the designers need to do something about this, at 2.26 you can see how high the turret flew away, I don’t think tankers have a chance in such cases.
    1. 0
      12 May 2022 22: 03
      So the T-14 did everything possible for the crew. Then just don’t put the ammunition in the tank.
  65. The comment was deleted.
  66. +2
    12 May 2022 20: 27
    Quote: marat2016
    2 ways to solve the problem: 1. Sell a LOT of weapons for export for money 2. have such a peaceful economy that military expenses are not burdensome for it.

    There is another way. Establish the production of very good cars, televisions, and much more, with high added value, and trade with abroad and with our own workers. The change house is sold in quantities unavailable to any military. The people have money, and it needs to be dipped like a blotter from bank accounts and from bank basement deposits. The abundance of goods reduces the price. Having an affordable product encourages people to work. Wives will force their husbands to work actively instead of drinking in garages with drinking buddies. Some use violence.
  67. 0
    12 May 2022 20: 30
    MBT is certainly good, but it would be nice to have highly specialized equipment. For example, an assault tank exclusively for urban areas. Not very fast and passable, but with enhanced armor. Moreover, given the specifics of battles, armor usually makes sense on one side. Those. You can use an additional attachment, and before the battle, move it to the projection where the tank will be facing the enemy.
    You also need to pay attention to passive heat traps (KAZ does not always cope).
    The idea: laughing We attach it to the tank UBV-2 (you can even do it without bitumen... just fill it with crushed stone) painted in contrasting colors. Question: Where will the Javelin fly if the temperature signature of the “large tar collider” is significantly higher than that of a tank engine?..
    1. +1
      13 May 2022 22: 53
      Moreover, given the specifics of battles, armor usually makes sense on one side.
      Just for urban combat you need good all-round protection. And also protection of the upper hemisphere. A grenade launcher can be loaded from above or from behind.
      Not very fast and passable
      Speed ​​is really not that important, but cross-country ability is very good; in cities there may be barricades, rubble, and debris from destroyed buildings.
      We also need to take into account the need for a remotely controlled machine gun with large elevation angles and a significantly increased ammunition load, and also add a remotely controlled AGS.
      And add a thermo-baric projectile to the gun’s ammunition.
  68. 0
    12 May 2022 21: 21
    The author completely missed such an important topic as environmental awareness.
    It is obvious to me that virtual reality helmets will be a thing of the near future; information will be displayed from drones, satellites, radars - both ground and air.
  69. 0
    13 May 2022 02: 10
    You must understand that most equipment is used not because they are better suited for modern warfare, but because the troops simply have them. But there are no new ones or few.

    The experience of the Ukrainian war must be taken into account, but we must not go to extremes. The next conflict may break out with a completely different enemy, in different conditions, in another part of the globe, and our generals will again prepare the army for the last war.
  70. 0
    13 May 2022 03: 17
    We must dance from the money in the budget and the availability of machine tools in the military-industrial complex. The BMD-4M should not be touched at all, the BMP-3 can be used for training by the military and designers. The main thing is not to break the series. The second question is, where are the trawls for tanks, they are driven with terrible force, the motors and all the power will have to be changed en masse.
    There is nowhere to put the titanium, so the T-14 is made into a light body. All T-90s are moderated at the request of the military.
  71. 0
    13 May 2022 09: 57
    Horses and people mixed together. Or simply put, porridge. I agree that buoyancy for infantry fighting vehicles today is not a very necessary characteristic, but removing the possibility of parachute drop from airborne equipment is nonsense. With this approach, the Airborne Forces must then be abolished - how many airborne units have parachuted into Ukraine??? as far as I know, not a single one, but this does not mean that the Airborne Forces should stop training in parachute and landing.
  72. -1
    13 May 2022 12: 05
    For a long time I could not understand why, in times of intense air defense and Russia’s lack of enemies without air defense, our Airborne Forces with their huge military transport aircraft and parachuted armored vehicles still exist in this outdated form? The IL-76 is a good hard worker like a truck, but is visible on any radar like the Eiffel Tower in a tourist’s photo. Train parachute jumping from it, so that later in a real war you can land the same troops from 30 helicopters using a landing method to capture an airfield under enemy MANPADS fire? And then, after a month of defense, retreat as a gesture of goodwill? Where can we now send dozens of IL-76s with a parachute landing? Unless to the North Pole, there is no enemy air defense there yet. It's time to abandon these clichés of the “standard general military tactics” vision of war. Our artillery, having a threefold superiority in numbers over the enemy, is useless. Without modern means of reconnaissance and target designation in real time, it is of little effectiveness. And changes should concern not only whether the equipment floats or does not float, but also how and where to direct this equipment. We open any video from the fronts of the Northern Military District, where a drone shows us how our artillery “grinds” the positions of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. And what do we see? 80% of shells fall anywhere - somewhere in the fields and very far from positions and trenches. Not to mention direct falls into dugouts or the trenches themselves - there are almost none. Effective? No. To release a package of BP from Grad into the field so that a couple of missiles still end up in one of the trenches and trenches - that’s what it’s like. As a result, it takes a week and dozens of tons of shells, mines, and missiles to process one kilometer-long APU position to the “suppressed” state. And human resources - and fatigue, and flight responses. The shame of the Russian army is that it does not have modern reconnaissance and target designation equipment at the field operational level in the quantities needed right now. 8 years of pretentious parades - exhibitions, 8 years of empty talk and the army on the battlefield fights in the old fashioned way - live reconnaissance with "language capture" and a thermal imager begged from volunteers, and aircraft flying at extremely low speed with strikes by NURS from a dive, because "almost destroyed The enemy's air defense does not allow it.
  73. pge
    +1
    13 May 2022 12: 42
    People, do not draw conclusions about the use of armored vehicles in special operations based on materials from the LDPR!
    I don’t know how it is in the DPR, but in our LM LPR the main tank is a forty-year-old T-64, taken from a farm in the Russian Federation. A few T-72s and BMP-2s - about 10 percent of the total.
    Thank God that they at least somehow carry out the mission!
  74. -1
    13 May 2022 15: 39
    Why do we need an infantry fighting vehicle that does not float or fly? The very point of creating a special vehicle for landing is the ability to land.
    1. 0
      13 May 2022 21: 26
      Airborne assault units should be of two types:
      - Helicopter landing brigades
      - Highly mobile brigades on wheeled vehicles (Boomerang platform - infantry fighting vehicles, self-propelled guns, air defense systems, anti-tank systems...).

      There is no point in putting paratroopers on heavy armored vehicles; these are no longer airborne forces, but infantry.
  75. -1
    13 May 2022 16: 59
    Quote: Cympak
    1. So far, in no real conflict, equipment has not been parachuted.
    2. The number of landing equipment should be tied to the possibilities of their transfer by military transport aviation. The same applies to the marines, the number of which should be tied to the capabilities of the landing ships.
    Other conclusions on SBO
    3. It is necessary to create and develop elite units in the ground forces. Call them beautifully: "jaegers" or "grenadiers".
    4. Floating equipment is needed, but in limited quantities. First of all, to develop success and capture bridgeheads after breaking through the enemy's defenses. But for a breakthrough, heavy infantry fighting vehicles with reliable protection are needed. The main thing to understand is that in a battle with an equal enemy, light armored vehicles do not live long without the support of tanks, but tanks cannot live separately without the support of infantry.
    5. The widespread installation of KAZ on tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. Moreover, KAZ is obliged to intercept "roof-breakers".
    6. The introduction of small reconnaissance UAVs, first at the company level, and then at the platoon level.
    7. The introduction of thermal imagers, at least one "tepak" per department.
    8. Equipping all self-propelled artillery units with UAV spotters and counter-battery radars.
    8. Replacement of all towed guns with self-propelled guns. An exception can only be made for NONA-K, which is given to air assault units when landing by helicopters.

    1. Who is ready to guarantee with their heads that such a need will never arise?
    2. I agree, but with a reservation. During the database, losses occur. Both in ground technology and in aviation. Therefore, you should have more equipment/aircraft than planned.
    3. At this point there is one simple conclusion. The troops conducting the SVO are the same elite. There is already a beautiful name. Professionals. Career officers and contract soldiers.
    4. And floating equipment, in fact, was created for this: to force the obstacle in the vanguard, cling to a piece of shore, and hold the position until the pontoon bridges are built and heavy equipment approaches.
    5-9. There is such a great expression: If you criticize, suggest. “KAZ is obliged to intercept “roofbreakers””© - Develop and send drawings to the Ministry of Defense.
  76. +1
    13 May 2022 17: 22
    It is too early to sum up the results of the use of technology; the war is still going on. At the first stage, a rapid attack by marching columns was tested, at the second stage, positional battles, I believe, at the third stage, maneuver warfare with envelopments and cauldrons should begin. Only after this can we talk about some kind of analysis of the experience of this war.
    Have we seen a lot of infantry fighting vehicles or armored personnel carriers overcoming water obstacles in Ukraine?
    We observed, for example, the defeat of 76 units of our armored vehicles in narrow spaces while waiting to cross the pontoon bridge. The fact that they don’t use the water flow is not a sign that it is not needed, but rather a sign that they have forgotten how to do it. There is really no need for water availability in Afghanistan, Chechnya and Syria. In Ukraine and in the European theater of operations in general, it is necessary. On the Kurganets 25t, the concept of replacing floats with armored screens was implemented, I think it is correct. Unlike the modifications of infantry fighting vehicles based on the Afghan experience, in Kurganets this option is standard and has been calculated structurally.
    It is also time to replace the main caliber of the BMP with 57mm.
    mass based on the principle of replacing each BMP-1, BMP-2 and BMP-3 with a T-15
    The T-15 has its own niche, to go into the breakthrough together with tanks, the need for conventional infantry fighting vehicles remains (naturally, I do not argue that the BMP1/2/3 are already outdated and they need a new vehicle to replace them).
    No matter how many experts argue, a 152 mm gun is capable of making much more than a 125 mm gun.
    I agree that the transition to the 152 mm caliber is overdue.
    Simply put, a refusal to divide into medium and heavy tanks.
    Now it makes sense to return to the division of tanks, into a classic maneuverable MBT or medium tank and a heavy tank for urban combat (additionally armored, well protected on top, equipped with a bulldozer blade, a 152mm caliber cannon, and additional anti-personnel weapons, for example AGS). Urban battles are now the most difficult and relevant.
    The next atavism, of course, is the requirements for parachute landing of airborne equipment.
    Here, I agree, but I will add that there is an urgent need to equip the Marine Corps with more seaworthy and fast equipment (on the water) with good weapons. An amphibious landing in the Odessa area suggests itself when an offensive will begin on Nikolaev and Odessa on the ground.
    However, most motorized rifle units are equipped with BTR-80 series equipment that is outdated in every sense
    Yes, the transition to wheeled infantry fighting vehicles is overdue. There is no longer a need for classic armored personnel carriers as a means of delivering infantry to the battlefield; we need vehicles that go into battle along with the infantry.
    For the front-line zone, MRAPs are needed. Cabin reservations for all army trucks are currently available.
  77. The comment was deleted.
  78. 0
    14 May 2022 01: 40
    Quote: author
    Key post-war paradigm began the search for some kind of balance

    belay
    PARADIGM
    (from the Greek paradeigma - example, sample), a system of forms of one word, reflecting modifications of the word according to its inherent grammatical categories, for example, gender, number and case for nouns, person, tense, aspect, etc. for verbs; scheme of word changes according to grammatical categories; sample type of declension or conjugation....belay
    What did the author want to say?
    Yes, not only will everyone understand Newspeak, cashback in the drawbar...
  79. 0
    14 May 2022 01: 56
    Quote: Author
    I repeat, not using my swimming ability at all.

    belay
    Where does this “perfect” come from?
    The author is an expert from the General Staff, everyone flocks to him about the use of equipment in special operations on the outskirts??
    Or are far-reaching conclusions drawn from watching videos from social networks and youtube???
  80. -1
    14 May 2022 05: 57
    Quote: Cympak
    1. So far, in no real conflict, equipment has not been parachuted.

    I think that it won’t happen anymore. Even during the Second World War, the regulations stated that airborne assault was possible not even with a strong advantage in the air, but with total dominance. And if you have total air supremacy, then generally speaking the war has already been won, why would there be a landing? Regular infantry will reach, aviation will destroy everything from the air, and infantry will occupy the vacated “area.”

    Dropping troops now, when the MANPADS factor has appeared, is a completely questionable matter. When an expensive IL with a hundred people (well trained, no matter what) and equipment is knocked down by a farmer after a liter of vodka... This landing is already an idea!
  81. -1
    14 May 2022 20: 53
    Is there no way to revive the ISU-152 in a modern version? Paired with a well-armored carrier of a 30-mm, or even a 57-mm automatic cannon, wouldn’t it work in the city?
  82. 0
    15 May 2022 10: 15
    The need for assault tanks has been felt since the 50s, since almost half of the fighting in Europe will be in urban areas.
  83. 0
    15 May 2022 10: 55
    Will armored vehicles change after the Russian special operation?! She SHOULD have changed BEFORE the Russian special operation!
  84. 0
    15 May 2022 13: 17
    The title contains the question “How will it change”?
    The answer is obvious - it will not change at all. NO WAY.
    It will not change either for the reasons that the author “picked up” from various topics, or for objective reasons.
    BMPs and armored personnel carriers will forever remain without shell protection, because they are a means of transport for infantry and a means of SUPPORT in battle. The need for anti-ballistic armor for them is the dream of a half-educated person who dreams of an all-defeating invulnerable weapon. Technically it is unattainable and useless.
    Infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers must be amphibious, if only motorized infantry will defend the territory of the Russian Federation, which is all a forest-steppe zone with large water barriers and SWAMPS. Ostensibly, Afghanistan’s “experience” in strengthening armor is a special case, because in Afghanistan there is not even a puddle of crossing. But there are simply no territories like Afghanistan in the Russian Federation... and in Europe, in our main theater of operations, there are none either. Non-floating infantry fighting vehicles mean the need for divisions of pontoon parks, covered by air armies on the march and deployment, these are the basics...
    The BMW-2 received a 2A42 gun with ANTI-AIRcraft functions to fight NATO helicopters, which were massively equipped with ATGMs; in Afghanistan, this property simply turned out to be in demand in the conditions of a mountainous theater of war.
    The idea of ​​equipping the Airborne Forces with armored vehicles that cannot be dropped.... This is simply nonsense. The airborne forces will turn into parachute platoons, because they do not have any company-level weapons. The Airborne Forces are not a massive branch of the military, and they should never conduct “armor-to-armor” battles, unless the commander is a friend of the author of the article with the same idea about the operational and tactical role of troops. The BMD is a machine that protects the AMMUNITION of a gun and the CALCULATION of this gun from the IMPACTS of bullets, shrapnel and blast waves, because the landing party needs this WEAPON!!!! The landing force never goes into battle on BMD, because the landing force never goes into attack “in the field”. The landing party moves on the BMD, holds the position under the cover of BMD fire and CHANGES position on the BMD. All. Anyone who is planning to throw troops into an infantry attack should be sent to a service platoon and demoted to junior warrant officer...
    It’s nice to discuss “changes” in technology for use in “modern” warfare to “assault” cities... But to no avail.
    The use of infantry fighting vehicles and tanks in COMBAT in the mountains or in cities, IF it occurs, is either a commander’s mistake or a consequence of an error. The experience of Budapest-45 and Berlin-45 remained in 1945 and will remain there - this is the experience of storming the LAST line of enemy defense, which is the last in all respects - from tactical to strategic. This will NEVER happen again (I don’t even want to “dream” about a war in which Berlin will have to be taken again).
    Designing tanks and infantry fighting vehicles for urban battles is a requirement of the occupying armies of aggressive states such as Israel, which need to crush the population with armor; in our conditions, cities occupied by the ENEMY are liberated by the advance of infantry, the path of which is paved by howitzer (namely howitzer) artillery and mortars, and the speed of advance depends on target designation for artillery and on the supply of ammunition.
    These are all the basics, A-Z-S of military affairs. The properties of a weapon are determined by the tactics of its use and vice versa, that is, they are in dialectical unity and inseparable, and the author’s dreams are dreams of war WITHOUT tactics, “we just take it, win and talk about it over a drink...”.
    There will be no changes in that part of the design of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles that are VISIBLE to the “viewer”, and if there are, it will be a mistake. Changes are needed in means of communication, reconnaissance, target designation, but they are not there, but the author, like the reader, DOES NOT KNOW what actually needs to be changed.
    A simple example - ALL tanks of the Russian army are built on the T-72, and admiration for them is based on a squeal about the “backwardness of the T-64”. But the T-72 suspension retains the features of the T-34 - the roller is RUBBER COVERED, and on the T-64 it is metal to metal, so the T-72 fails when the roller catches fire or the rubber band is damaged, while the T-64 retains mobility. This problem has not been solved since 1967 by the great tank builders Kartsev and Venediktov, and it is everywhere - T-80U, T-90, Armata and all vehicles based on them, i.e. SAU 2S19 Msta, etc. Even a heavy infantry fighting vehicle, which must go into fire and under high-explosive fire, also has rollers that burn and the rubber of which is cut by shrapnel :) On the BMP-1/2 it is also rubber, but there are 4 rollers in the spare parts kit, which can be changed by one person, and 4 more spare tires, which can be changed WITHOUT dismantling the roller, but on the T-72.... uuuuuuu..... replacement of the roller? Oh well...
    This is a problem MORE IMPORTANT than countering ATGMs and RPGs in urban conditions....
    But who asked me?
    1. +1
      15 May 2022 19: 39
      Alexander, tell me why in a real conflict they build a pontoon crossing and not swim it down, because the technology allows it?
      1. +1
        15 May 2022 20: 15
        I was taught this:
        In a “real conflict”, you first need to explore the possibility of establishing a pontoon crossing, for which the GPZ forces the water barrier with the forces of the reconnaissance company's BRDM and infantry fighting vehicles. For this purpose, BRDM and infantry fighting vehicles are floating.
        Then, on the opposite bank, a bridgehead is established at a depth of at least 1500 meters, for which purpose it is transported to the SME on armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, the GPZ is reinforced by TRPT (a tank company on PT-76 amphibious tanks), for which all these BRDMs, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles and anti-tank vehicles are all floating.
        Then, as the bridgehead expands to a size that allows troops to be deployed in numbers sufficient for an offensive (otherwise the bridgehead is not needed), air defense systems are moved onto the bridgehead - at least the Osa-AK battery, which is on the BAZ-5937 chassis, which is floating six-wheeled..
        Well, only when the bridgehead has been expanded to a size that precludes it from being penetrated by small arms and direct fire, and the air defense missile systems form the first echelon of air defense over it at a distance of up to 3000m, then only THEN the reconnaissance company of the pontoon park is allowed to go to the opposite banks and START installing benchmarks on the ground for dumping pontoons...
        At this time, it is allowed to transport the 2S1 “Gvozdika” regimental artillery battalion to the bridgehead, which is floating, it takes up positions taking into account the data of the artillery gunners, who advanced along with the GPZ.
        At this moment, the pontoon parks are located at a distance of at least 3500 meters from the crossing (according to terrain conditions).
        Did I explain it to you clearly? I am only the commander of a SME reconnaissance platoon on a BMP-2. I didn’t study the “strategic” sciences of establishing pontoon crossings right from the couch...
    2. 0
      18 May 2022 06: 01
      "..Designing tanks and infantry fighting vehicles for urban battles is a requirement of the occupying armies of aggressive states such as Israel, which need to crush the population with armor; in our conditions, cities occupied by the ENEMY are liberated by the advance of infantry, the path of which is paved by howitzer (namely howitzer) artillery and mortars, and speed advancement depends on target designation for artillery and on the supply of ammunition."
      ////////////////////////////////
      From the mass of videos posted on the internet, I noticed two things. During World War II, most of the damaged tanks had intact hulls. Nowadays, in Ukraine, most of the damaged tanks are a heap of torn scrap metal!.. Secondly, in urban combat conditions, the automatic 2 mm air cannon demonstrates well in action. Its power is more than enough to break through any city walls - brick or reinforced concrete, and a stone building does not collapse like a large caliber... In addition, armored personnel carriers with such a gun have a large supply of 30mm caliber shells.
      1. +1
        18 May 2022 20: 01
        The difference in tank losses in WWII and today is a matter of QUALITATIVE change in the issue of tank protection
        In the Second World War, tanks were hit primarily in the turret because 99% of the cases were hit by anti-tank artillery (anti-tank artillery), whose aiming devices are simply primitive from the point of view of today. At those ranges at which the PTA could survive, i.e. more than 700 meters, a shot at a tank is only possible at the turret, because this is OUTSIDE the flatness of a direct shot from PTA guns (except for the 88-mm Flak38), in addition, the hull of the attacking tank is constantly turned towards the PTA with its frontal part, which is low-vulnerable, and the turret from time to time is turned towards the side, because turns.
        In addition, the main anti-tank ammunition of the 40s provided only penetration or breach of armor, which was enough to disable the crew and equipment of the tank.
        Modern ammunition either does not penetrate the tank’s armor protection at all, or has such an armor-protecting effect that it leads to the detonation of the ammunition load, the explosion of the VVD, if there is one in the tank, fuel vapors, etc., i.e. if it penetrated, then it blew it up, and where exactly the armor was penetrated - the turret or the hull - is no longer so important.
        Tanks and anti-tank guns of our time have only the name and general principle in common with the 40s, but in detail they differ qualitatively and often to the contrary.
        This is exactly what Morozov realized when he started the T-64, and this contradiction could not be resolved in Europe by creating the Leopard and other “units”.
        About urban battles
        It's not about tanks - it's about TANK FORCES, which, in principle, are too expensive to be used for anything other than a means of operational breakthrough. Storming cities is absolutely the opposite, and there are no tanks like “breakthrough tanks” now, because it is impossible to build the IS-2 at the modern level. And most importantly - THERE IS NO NEED, since today's artillery is qualitatively better, not to mention rocket technology, so NPP tanks in cities are simply a command mistake.
        Yes, rapid-fire small-caliber guns in cities are effective... that is, more effective than... than what? They are more effective than company-level small arms, yes. But this is again the commander’s mistake. This is a direct fire weapon, that is, the shooter is ALSO in direct fire from the enemy, this is dangerous nonsense. The weapon must provide SUPERIORITY over the target being hit, and make it possible to hit it safely, otherwise, you just need to not bother and drive crowds of infantry to the firing points, they say, small arms against small arms...
        Firing points are hit by 122mm howitzer artillery, covered ones - by 152mm howitzer artillery, even 10 shots, but the battery fires as if on a training ground, calmly, from a distance. One out of 10 shots hit, and that's it. Isn’t it better to bring a machine of shells to the artillery to the rear position than to drive a machine to the front line behind the corpses of infantrymen?
        Further, 120 and 160 mm mortars make it possible to hit all light-type shelters, including shooting “into the neighboring yard” through houses. Again, 10 pavements with no response - and the neighboring yard is hung with liver up to the 3rd floor, you can enter on foot...
        And this is provided that the target is targeted. If it is area, then it is hit by aerial bombs from a dive or in an area, if it is especially important, by a rocket. In cities, MANPADS are ineffective, since there is no time to aim, especially when aircraft arrive immediately at the moment the artillery attack stops.
        Then the PLACE where the target was is engaged by the infantry, without losses... There is no need to drag any tanks through three-story reinforced concrete ruins.
        For some reason, this simple mechanism is very difficult for writers to understand.
        Everyone wants to discuss about 1945, they say, then assault groups had tanks. Everyone forgets that in 1945 there was no fast communication and target designation means, only shooting with adjustments, which is impossible without communication. Therefore, the infantry was given IS-2/ISU, converted into NPP tanks, communication with which was carried out by VOICE. If there had been means of communication back then, there would have been no NPPs - why? If there were means to DETERMINE the coordinates of the target in order to transmit via communications, the NPP tanks would be stationed “outside the city.”
        Today there is communication and precise devices for reference and target designation, so artillery does not have to enter the city in the form of tanks, but shoots from a distance of more than 3500 meters from the troops, beyond even stray shelling.
        I’m saying all this without taking into account the terrible price of tank ammunition, tank barrels and small UVN tank guns... Tanks in the city are for the movies. For the stupid
  85. 0
    16 May 2022 10: 02
    The armor should be made of composite, mounted, removable, and not riveted into heavy steel boxes. And such work was carried out, but, as always, someone took the money into their own pocket. Why don't they use BMPT? Very few UAVs. Where are the network-centric tools? Mercury complexes?
  86. -1
    16 May 2022 10: 36
    You can talk about different concepts for another ten years, but I’m more than sure that nothing much will change. A person’s life in Russia is not worth anything...
  87. mva
    0
    18 May 2022 13: 14
    Author, you are drawing the wrong conclusion from the lessons. A tank is absolutely not needed in modern warfare. In the city he is a target for ATGMs, and outside the city for MLRS and howitzers, in the presence of well-organized reconnaissance from satellites and drones.
  88. 0
    18 May 2022 13: 49
    Quote: EvilLion
    Ahead of the rest of the planet, in fact, only such systems are still 10 years away, according to our and American estimates.

    All the technologies already exist, it’s just that no one is doing it until a roasted rooster pecks in the ass laughing There are weapons, there is armor, there is a power plant. Electronics, including cameras of various types, processors, communications, encryption, exist. On-board systems for capturing, storing, and tracking targets exist. That's it in a nutshell. A cheap, assault unmanned aerial vehicle is real and, like a UAV, it does not need high-precision cameras at 5 km+. It is needed for fights at distances from 5 to 1000 meters.
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  91. 0
    20 May 2022 12: 25
    I liked the whole article. It forces soldiers and development methods to think. It can be assumed that the development of a new vehicle will probably take place differently and will take advantage of the war in Ukraine. This seems important. For the West, Ukraine is the main battlefield. I repeat, I liked the article. am
  92. -1
    21 May 2022 09: 35
    How might technology change after the war in Ukraine?
    No way. Because there is not enough money to transfer, for example, paratroopers to new BMDs. What can we say about creating a new tank with a 152 mm gun?
    In recent years, there has been a lot of talk about the need for new equipment for the Marine Corps. And what did we see in Mariupol? The Marines are supported by a lone BTR-82A. What is it? Vehicles without armor or firepower.
    And, by the way, the author did not mention communication, surveillance, and target designation systems.
  93. 0
    8 June 2022 14: 12
    The article says everything correctly. The armor of our equipment is not enough. It is necessary to throw out water cannons with the possibility of landing and make the equipment more armored. It is also necessary to increase the caliber and power of weapons. There is no need to be afraid of the arms race, this is an inevitable evolutionary process, because based on this fear it was possible to drive the T-34-85 for centuries.

    PS, in my opinion, the author forgot to mention another very important lesson from Ukraine - the superiority of gas turbine tanks over diesel ones. They are much quieter and more maneuverable. I read several articles with interviews with tank crews fighting on the T-80BVM, they all unanimously write that diesel tanks are not their opponents and in tank duels they always try to force a fight. All the same, it’s not for nothing that the Americans made their Abrams gas turbine engines.

    The armature also needs to be made with a gas turbine engine and a 152mm cannon
  94. 0
    29 June 2022 10: 09
    For such articles you need to make a separate bookmark “Opinion from an armored sofa”
  95. 0
    10 July 2022 08: 03
    The generals are preparing for past wars... And the last war for our generals... is a war in the Arbat district for a place in the sun. Therefore, the requirements for equipment are determined by the manufacturer and how it is convenient for him to produce..
  96. 0
    2 August 2022 08: 27
    The first aspects that now need to be worked out are the fight against drones and protection against heat-seeking missiles.
    At least one tank/support vehicle in a separate group must have an anti-drone system. It’s probably easier to use heat traps against missiles with TGSN. But not fired, as in aviation, but simply carried on a rod some distance behind the body. Yes, you can integrate a regular heater. If its heat signature is higher than that of the tank, the missile will go exactly there.