Missile threat in the Black Sea

174

The loss of the missile cruiser Moskva, coupled with reports of Britain supplying anti-ship missiles to Ukraine, has raised questions about how ready the Black Sea Fleet is to counter the missile threat. In this regard, a short educational program without assessing how the Defense Ministry prepared the fleet for military operations.

The nature of the threat


The Ministry of Defense did not report what caused the fatal fire with the detonation of ammunition on the cruiser, and we cannot legally unequivocally state that Ukraine actually destroyed the ship with missiles. But we can estimate how capable this and other ships would be to repulse such an attack.

First, a little about what our ships would have to face. There is an opinion that subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles (ASC), which are armed with all our opponents in the world, except for Japan (Japanese aviation receives ASM-3 anti-ship missiles at a speed of three “sounds”), this is some kind of nonsense, a worthless target that the air defense (air defense) of our ships can easily deal with.




Infographics of the Ukrainian anti-ship missile "Neptune"

Actually it is not. Almost all of the “Western-type” anti-ship missiles (small-sized subsonic) that were and are still in service go to the target at ultra-low altitudes, up to 1,5-2 meters above the wave crests.

Firstly, it significantly reduces the time that the crew of the attacked ship has to react. For example, an American anti-ship missile "Harpoon" flying at a height of 5 meters can be detected by a ship's radar station located at a height of 25 meters above the water at a distance of 30 kilometers. But this is in theory, because this will be the range of direct radio visibility from the antenna to the target missile, this range is due to the curvature of the Earth and cannot be exceeded.

In practice, the target detection range is also affected by the performance characteristics of the ship's radar complex (RLC), which includes the radar. The less perfect it is, the less against the background of sea waves will be the detection range of the missile.

Also, the detection range of a missile is affected by its effective scattering area - a parameter that characterizes the visibility of a missile for radar. The smaller the RCS, the shorter the detection range, all other things being equal. The same Harpoon, like all missiles similar to it (including the Russian X-35 / 3M24, the Ukrainian Neptune, etc.), has a very small RCS due to the small size of the rocket.

We can safely assume that an outdated ship that has not undergone modernization, such as the same Moskva, will be able to detect and classify such a missile at a distance of about 15 kilometers from the side (its radars are optimized for long-range detection of air targets, for which the decimeter wavelength range is used - suboptimal to work in the "drive layer"). For "Marshal Ustinov", which received new radars during the modernization, this distance is much greater.

How long will it take the rocket to fly this distance? Most Western anti-ship missiles cover a kilometer in about 3 seconds, that is, about 45 seconds. At the same time, the ship's anti-aircraft missile system (SAM), used for air defense, also has a minimum target engagement range (at a shorter distance, "for self-defense", artillery is already working). That is, in the zone of destruction of the air defense system of the anti-ship missile complex will be less than 30 seconds. And you still need to make the decision to use weaponsto ensure target distribution. The air defense system also has a reaction time and receiving target designation for firing. From the remaining time, you also need to subtract the flight time of an anti-aircraft guided missile (SAM), that is, in reality it is even less.

And in these tens of seconds, the personnel of Combat Unit 2 (rocket and artillery) need to determine what kind of target it is, receive an order from the commander of the ship or an officer replacing him to take target designation to the anti-aircraft missile system, report readiness for firing, receive an order to destroy targets, launch a rocket.

Let's see how it looks in practice. It took 26 seconds for reports even on video, that is, under certain conditions, almost half the time of the missile's flight from the moment it was discovered to the time the ship was hit. The video shows the real defeat of the Bayraktar UAV, that is, it is in a real battle that so much time is spent on dialogues.


But that's not all.

The missile must be illuminated, on older ships such as the Moskva, this task is performed by the target illumination radar, which indicates to the anti-aircraft missile what it needs to hit. How many targets can such a radar "highlight"? For example, on "Moscow" - 6, 2 missiles for each.

And if the enemy launches more missiles? Then, with a high degree of probability, some part of them passes the far air defense zone and must be destroyed either by short-range air defense systems, if any, or by artillery.

Regardless of the type of ship, the rest of the anti-aircraft weapons usually have 20-30 seconds from the moment the missile breaks through the air defense of the far zone (or enters the zone of destruction of anti-aircraft weapons of the near air defense zone) until it hits the side. And this does not mean that there is the same amount to hit the target - the anti-ship missiles must be shot down so that it falls into the water, and does not reach the target, dropping debris along the way, which means at a great distance from the ship. That is, we are talking about a matter of seconds.

And if there are more missiles than can be shot down? The ship will be hit, and it doesn't matter that these missiles are subsonic and slow. And what air defense systems are on board the ship is also not important. The method of “launching more missiles at a target than it technically has time to shoot down” is called “air defense saturation” and for the same Americans is one of the basic options for attacking surface ships.

But, as you can see from the numbers above, even one missile is a big threat. You just can not have time to bring it down, even if it is subsonic.

It is clear that all these calculations are very approximate and do not take into account, for example, the interference situation, the use of interference by the defending ship, the performance characteristics of missiles and much more, but the principle is clear - any missiles are truly dangerous, boastful cries that, they say, subsonic anti-ship missiles are nonsense - just a crime.

What should a ship be like in order to have a high chance of repelling attacks by low-altitude anti-ship missiles?

ship requirements


To be sure that the ship can shoot down small-sized low-altitude anti-ship missiles, the following conditions must be met.

Firstly, the ship's radar must be able to both detect incoming missiles and direct them regardless of the heading angles from which they fly up.

For understanding, Project 11356 frigates have four MP-90 Orekh target illumination radars, which allow them to “illuminate” the target 360 degrees around the ship.

Missile threat in the Black Sea
Project 11356 frigate Admiral Grigorovich, 4 Orekha antennas are visible

On Indian destroyers of the Delhi type, 6 units of the same radar had to be installed, on a large ship, just that many were needed to ensure circular guidance of missiles.

And, for example, the Moskva missile cruiser has one target illumination radar on a swivel base, it can only target missiles in a limited sector, to target missiles at anti-ship missiles coming from a different course, the radar antenna must be rotated, and this is again time.


3R41 "Volna" - a radar station for tracking and illuminating the target of the ship's anti-aircraft missile system S-300F "Fort". Photo: Wikipedia

If a missile attack comes simultaneously from two sides, then its reflection is almost impossible. In addition, an anti-aircraft missile must be able to capture an inconspicuous small-sized target with its homing head, without disruption. At the same time, of course, all equipment must be fully operational, which, alas, does not always happen in reality.

But it's not all about technology. We also need confidence that the crew knows how to use it. Therefore, it is critical that even ships that are technically fully suitable for repelling attacks with modern anti-ship missiles also regularly practice such tasks on real firing, against real targets. The experience of the crew in hitting target missiles, corresponding to real missiles in terms of their flight performance, is critical for naval combat. That is, only such a ship can be considered fully combat-ready, the crew of which has already shot down target missiles similar to real missiles.

Without fulfilling all these conditions, it is impossible to assume that the ship is ready for self-defense against anti-ship missiles.

Now realities


How many are in the Black Sea fleet ships that technically meet the criteria listed above? There are three of them, these are Project 11356 frigates. Two of them are now in the Black Sea - Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov, and the third - Admiral Grigorovich - is now in the Mediterranean Sea as part of the Russian Navy's task force.


Frigate project 11356

That is, according to their performance characteristics right now in the Black Sea, only two ships can technically repel missile strikes by the same Neptunes or Harpoons without any restrictions. But in fact, in terms of crew training?

Alas, in the relatively recent past, on target missiles that actually imitate modern Western anti-ship missiles, namely the RM-24 (converted into an anti-ship missile target 3M24 of the Uran complex, it is also in aviation - X-35), flying at low altitude, fired only "Grigorovich" last year. He immediately fired both his Shtil air defense system and the Tor modular air defense system installed on the flight deck. Fired successfully, the target was destroyed. The disadvantage of shooting is that it was single, the reflection of a group volley was not practiced, but at least something was done ... But there is no “Admiral Grigorovich” in the Black Sea, and he does not participate in the operation against Ukraine.

You can read about the problems of such firing and the firing of "Grigorovich" in the article by M. Klimov - Anti-aircraft missile "positive": the Navy began to shoot at real targets.

In principle, the fact that the Essen and Makarov did not fire at adequate target missiles can be corrected very quickly - the Feodosia training ground is nearby. But their number - two ships - cannot be quickly corrected.

There is another ship, in some cases capable of shooting down almost any missile going to it or to a protected vessel - the small missile ship (RTO) Cyclone, project 22800 Karakurt.

This ship is equipped with the Pantsir-M anti-aircraft system. This complex is very effective, but it has weather limitations - in heavy rain or in any conditions when there is a dense water suspension in the air, the Pantsirya-M firing radar does not provide aiming. But in normal weather it provides very well.


MRK project 22800 "Cyclone" from the Black Sea Fleet. Photo: A. Brichevsky

And one more possibility - the same modular Tor air defense system, from which they fired when he stood on the deck of the Grigorovich. This air defense system can be put on a ship that does not have missile weapons at all, for example, on a project 22160 patrol ship. It will not become a missile ship in the true meaning of these words, but it will receive some kind of ability to fire at anti-ship missiles. The same module can be placed in the strengthening of the frigate. On the "Moscow", by the way, it could also be put.


The last, though experimental, carrier of Pantsir-M is the Shuya missile boat. He, too, must, if possible, be involved in air defense tasks.


In general, that's all. None of the remaining ships of the Black Sea Fleet can repulse the attack with "Harpoons" and "Neptunes" at all or can by chance.

There is another problem - the lack of means of illuminating the air situation over the Black Sea and the coast. It is always impossible to drive long-range radar detection aircraft there, they are needed in other places, and the ships will not have enough of their own radars.

There is also a positive point - the technical possibility of transmitting data on the air situation to the ship from the automated combat control system of the Polyana-D4 anti-aircraft missile brigade, which gives the ships the opportunity to fight together with ground-based air defense units. That is how a few days ago the frigate "Admiral Essen" shot down the Ukrainian UAV "Bayraktar".

But this is also not enough.

The same Ukrainians are supplied with intelligence by NATO, and American and European reconnaissance aircraft and Drones literally hang over the regions of Poland, Romania and the Black Sea bordering Ukraine.

In theory, now you can simply move the ships away to prevent them from sinking, but in practice, Russia still needs control over the Ukrainian coast and communications, and another solution is needed.

It is also impossible to leave it as it is - the Ukrainians will simply melt all our ships sooner or later.

What to do?

The solution


It is obvious that it is necessary to prepare for the war in advance, then, when it has already begun, it is much more difficult to correct the shortcomings and it is worth the losses.

What should have been done long before the outbreak of hostilities?

It was necessary to provide the fleet with a large number of small-sized light targets, cheap, and those that, due to the low structural strength, could not cause serious damage to the ship if the target was missed and the target hit the ship.

In Russia, the Adjutant target complex with similar products has been developed and put into service, although it is not used in the navy.

A separate problem is the development of the reflection of the most realistic enemy raids. For example, in the British Navy, after the Falklands War (and the loss of ships in it), the so-called “Thursday exercises” (held mainly on Thursdays) were adopted with mass overflights and imitation of strikes by special groups of aircraft with well-trained pilots, electronic warfare equipment, GOS simulators RCC, etc.

Nothing of the kind has been done in our country, and nothing is being done now, and as a result, we will have to go the hard way. As already mentioned, the arsenal of the Navy has the RM-24 target missile, which is a small-sized anti-ship missile converted into a target. These missiles perfectly imitate the American Harpoon, the Ukrainian Neptune, and any similar missiles. If the ship has worked out firing at them, it means that its crew and equipment are guaranteed to be ready to repel a real strike with such missiles. The launch of the target is carried out using the Bal missile system, which is part of the Black Sea Fleet and can also be delivered to Syria for training the crews of ships of the Navy unit in the Mediterranean Sea.

The problem is that this is a dangerous target - anti-aircraft fire can damage it, but not destroy it, while close explosions often change the course of target missiles, and sometimes they go to the ship. When hitting a ship, the RM-24, even without a warhead, will inflict very heavy damage on it, and even if it collapses in the air, it is dangerous. Some of its parts, such as the shaft of a turbojet engine, can fly a considerable distance after the destruction of the rocket. That is why the fleet really does not like to shoot at these products.

But right now there is no choice. In wartime, it is too late to correct pre-war shortcomings; we must act with what we have. Therefore, it is necessary to immediately organize training firing, in which both ships in the Black Sea (frigates and Cyclone RTOs) and ships in the Mediterranean (all ships with SAMs) could practice hitting realistic targets. First you need to insure the ships with the "Tora" module on the deck, in addition to the standard air defense system. Then shoot only with your own means, and continuously increase the RM-24 salvo to those values ​​that will correspond to the tactics of a real enemy.

After the ships have worked out the destruction of such targets, both alone and in a group, you need to try to strengthen them with a patrol ship with a Tor air defense system module on the deck.

In the hangars, instead of search and rescue helicopters, which are located there instead of the anti-submarine ones, to place Ka-31 AWACS helicopters from Kuznetsov, which would significantly “push” the radio horizon when in the air.

RKA "Shuya" must be repaired and prepared for combat use as soon as possible.

It is necessary to conduct exercises during which not only observation of the air situation and engagement of air targets would be carried out, but also decoy targets, creation of a complex target and jamming environment for the enemy, cover of the damaged ship by other ships in the course of the struggle for survivability.

And when such a detachment is combat ready, they will cover all the actions of our surface forces to the west of the Crimea.

Russia is building ships so slowly and so expensively, and shipyards are so limited in capacity, that the loss of combat units from anti-ship missiles from the shore is simply not acceptable. And if you continue to treat the situation lightly, then these losses are inevitable.

They must be prevented, and this is quite possible.
174 comments
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  1. -21
    April 26 2022 04: 44
    In theory, now you can just move the ships away to prevent them from sinking,

    In general, warships are built in order to fight with the enemy. not hide from him. No one needs such ships and such tactics for their use, and the money spent on their construction and maintenance can be used more efficiently, for example, for the construction of aircraft or missiles.
    It seems that Mr. Timokhin does not understand well what the navy is for. Military sailors, like all other military men, receive their salary in peacetime because the state, at the right time, has the right to send its military into battle, which is naturally associated with a risk to life.
    1. -3
      April 26 2022 05: 01
      Where were the missiles launched from? If these are Neptunes, then the logical question is where did the intelligence command, special forces look? You can use the same tactics that the Americans used when they were hunting for Scud missiles recourse
      1. +5
        April 26 2022 05: 24
        Not a bad analysis in the article, although this is a stretch:
        It took 26 seconds to make presentations even on video

        I am sure that there is an automatic mode for classifying a target, determining the degree of threat and making a decision to launch. And for sure there is a simplified procedure for issuing a command (nebula laughing ) in case the target is high-speed!
        1. +2
          April 26 2022 07: 41
          . Missile threat in the Black Sea. .... Solution.

          Rather take Odessa. And cut off Ukraine from the Black Sea.
          1. +7
            April 26 2022 16: 36
            The whole meaning was sunk in a sea of ​​numbers and letters. The main message: they are not ready for war.
          2. 0
            22 June 2022 08: 51
            My couch opinion. And if a drone with air defense hangs 1-2 km above the ship grouping? What will happen. You have good air defense, only tactics at sea are different. I don’t know - why are these neptunes, harpoons, etc., if they destroy them? Rocket, cannon or powerful machine gun? In smysl - can it be placed on a drone? There was a topic about helicopter carriers - is it possible to place air defense drones there? I'm just arguing - as a lover of strategic games.
        2. +6
          April 26 2022 20: 18
          I am sure that there is an automatic mode for classifying a target, determining the degree of threat and making a decision to launch.


          At AEGIS
          1. -2
            April 27 2022 03: 22
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            At AEGIS

            In air defense, not only Americans can.

            Quote: BoA KAA
            The entire management of the ZOS is being transferred to the BIC, and what was shown to the TV people from the running post is the prophonation of peacetime.
        3. +4
          April 26 2022 21: 08
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Not a bad analysis in the article, although this is a stretch:
          It took 26 seconds to make presentations even on video

          I am sure that there is an automatic mode for classifying a target, determining the degree of threat and making a decision to launch. And for sure there is a simplified procedure for issuing a command (nebula laughing ) in case the target is high-speed!

          Vladimir, hi
          The thing is that A. Timokhin is not a sailor and really did not take part in the missile firing of the NK. Therefore, he believes and tries to convince those who are not involved that in a real battle the "verbal" tagomutin will be at least 26 seconds.
          He never heard the command: - "The threat of attack by the enemy's AOS! BATTLE ALARM! Missile search, starboard 90!" The entire management of the ZOS is transferred to the BIC, and what the TV people showed from the navigation post is a prophonation of peacetime.
          Further. Manages the ZOS, as well as the entire defense of the SPK, the commander, through his VIKO, can confirm / approve the order of destruction of the CC. No one "votes" at the Central Committee of the Communist Party (swearing - it happens), but there is simply no time for "speech".
          An extreme case, when a "star" air raid is underway, the CICS (no longer in advisory mode) comes into play, which automatically (!) Decides to fire at the MOST DANGEROUS ATs that have entered the "danger window". I found (unfortunately) only the "Dagger" self-defense air defense system, which swept away everything that flew in our direction in the machine gun.
          But in general, the air defense of the ship is organized along lines and zones with the integrated use of electronic warfare and even RBU - against low-flying anti-ship missiles ... And the fact that the AK-630 and Kortiki are now being replaced by Shells is even very correct. Because the "beating of the trunks" is not a picture for the faint of heart. Therefore, at particularly important moments, an officer or an iron midshipman, who knew that this was our last line, became on the sighting column (instead of guidance from the MP-123).
          You can still write, but something fell away after the author suggested hanging Ka-31R over the ships of the Black Sea Fleet ...
          AND WE HAVE THEM FOR THE WHOLE NAVY ... ALREADY 02 pieces !!!
          As the Italians say - Finita la comedy !!!
          AHA.
          1. -2
            April 27 2022 03: 21
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            The entire management of the ZOS is being transferred to the BIC, and what was shown to the TV people from the running post is the prophonation of peacetime.

            Thanks, that's exactly what I thought! (was sure laughing ).
      2. +10
        April 26 2022 05: 31
        Quote: RaptorF22А2
        Where were the missiles launched from?
        even from where .. the complex is mobile.
      3. +9
        April 26 2022 06: 07
        Odessa, Nikolaev is not the desert of Iraq. DRG will disappear there
      4. +23
        April 26 2022 09: 01
        Quote: RaptorF22А2
        You can also use the same tactics that the Americans used when they were hunting for Scud missiles

        Unfortunately, our intelligence capabilities are far from American. Also, we did not manage to completely suppress the Ukrainian air defense.
      5. +17
        April 26 2022 11: 41
        There, where the whole war is being looked at. Is it still not clear what level of our intelligence and command? And how many days should a "special military operation" take to make it clear? 500?
        1. +17
          April 26 2022 14: 00
          Yes, everything is clear, when people are selected according to the principle of personal devotion, there can be no question of any professionalism.
          1. -2
            April 26 2022 21: 16
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Yes, everything is clear, when people are selected according to the principle of personal devotion, there can be no question of any professionalism.

            Conversations in the ranks!
            The Arbat Military District steers ... But the Supreme High Command realized that it was not far from embarrassment ... Therefore, out of harm's way, he appointed Dvornikov as commander of the forces of the Northern Military District ...
            ("A janitor will sweep away all Nazi wickedness with an iron broom!" - and this seems to be true ...)
            AHA.
      6. +3
        2 May 2022 02: 49
        Well, right there on the VO there was a jingoistic article about the Ukrainian "Neptunes" - like a copy from the x-35, moreover, worsened, and even not worked out and poorly flying, and in general, what Ukrainians can create besides "schutzpanzers". It was most likely the "official" point of view of our military. And in general, I was always amazed at the attitude towards Ukrainians here in VO, as to narrow-minded panheads, diggers of the seas, who do not know how and cannot create anything in terms of military equipment and weapons. Here and to cheers-patriots. Here is the result.
    2. +30
      April 26 2022 05: 24
      Realizing the right to send into battle, one must prepare well. The author about it.
    3. -11
      April 26 2022 05: 51
      Business then.
      Aligarhi "on TV", everyone says: first of all, frigates, the number - as I decide, and we with the yachts after the construction of that number
    4. +23
      April 26 2022 05: 57
      The author says that military sailors should be trained, not dressed!
    5. +34
      April 26 2022 06: 37
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      In theory, now you can just move the ships away to prevent them from sinking,


      It seems that Mr. Timokhin does not understand well what the navy is for. .

      It's five! good And this whole situation with the fleet, and the death of Moscow in particular, is proof of this, right? laughing
      Timokhin and Klimov have not understood anything for ten years, but people like you understand. Result on the scoreboard
      1. +14
        April 26 2022 23: 26
        Result on the scoreboard

        May the souls of the sea forgive me...
        When did our fleet win a BIG victory? In the 19th century before last, on sailboats, under the leadership of Admiral Ushakov, if I'm not mistaken? In the Patriotic Black Sea Fleet, large ships stood at the pier, they took care of the ships. The BF snapped at the submarines ...
        We have like peacetime - so the Fleet is a feast for the eyes, like war - so Tsushima.
        After the embarrassment of the flagships Admiral Kuznetsov and Moscow, somehow you begin to look at our pride - nuclear submarines - in a different way. And they really won’t be embarrassed in a big war either? The admirals are the same commanders.
        Why the infantry heroically wins, the aircraft smashes the enemy, and the fleet .... at the moment it shoots well with Caliber from the pier, it’s better to keep silent about the rest. But in order to shoot from the pier, the ship itself is not really needed, a launcher is enough.
        I once believed that the entire Black Sea is under the control of our Black Sea Fleet. Well, at least the closed zones near Ukraine should be kept in such a way that a fly will not fly by without our state identification system, that no sprat will slip through ... And it’s like that.
        1. +4
          April 27 2022 09: 36
          Well, it's under control. The ports of Ukraine are blocked, logistics routes are blocked, the Ukrainian fleet is partly liquidated, partly blocked in ports. By the way, why are they not finishing him off - xs.
          But at the same time, our Black Sea Fleet has been a rarity reserve for 20 years. Ukraine forbade us to develop it and build ships and vessels for it. Therefore, there is such a zoo and a huge number of rarities. Over the past 8 years, 6 submarines, 3 frigates, patrolmen and RTOs have been built, plus the auxiliary fleet, which was in extremely difficult condition, is being updated. That is, the process is underway, but until the Black Sea Fleet is brought into such a form that it can surpass the Turkish and other NATO Black Sea fleets in the amount STILL VERY FAR. Another 3 frigates were to be built, but due to a disruption in the supply of Ukrainian gas turbine engines, they fell through. Now, before the construction of 6 corvettes 2038x for the Black Sea Fleet, 3 frigates 22350 and bringing the number of RTOs to 12, the balance has seriously shifted not in our favor. This is reality. Not lethal, as Crimea is a land aircraft carrier and has serious cover, but serious.
          It has long been time for Moscow to either go for modernization or retire, but there was stupidly no one to replace it. The region is located in the database zone, so it had to be exploited for wear and tear. Well, a serious underestimation of the enemy, of course. Plus known neglect and problems in the field of fire safety and so on. By the fact that it is now clear 1 BDK was lost and two were stupidly damaged due to poor capping of the bp. That is, due to negligence.
          At the same time, the fleet will fulfill its task. I hope that both shipbuilders and admirals will finally think about fire safety and how not to lose ships due to fires from scratch. Again, they will tighten up the attitude to the matter. request
          In fact, one must understand that the Black Sea Fleet is still under construction and what it will be like is still only vaguely visible. It is clear that it makes no sense to keep many first ranks there, because in the event of a big war, the Turks will not let us out. But we will see what configuration it will have in 5 years.
          How about a big win? The fleet is not a thing in itself, but a tool. If the task is completed and the NWO ends with a serious success, then the contribution of the fleet will be in it. At least the blockade of dill ports, the protection of the Crimea from air raids. And the Marines fought pretty well in 2 months. Let me remind you that 2 brigades became guards. Not by inheritance, but for military merit right now.
          1. +1
            April 27 2022 19: 15
            The Black Sea Fleet has been a rarity reserve for 20 years. Ukraine forbade us to develop it and build ships and ships for it.

            Are you serious now? Ukraine forbade us to build a navy? Ukraine? To assert this is like blaming the Baltic states for the fact that we have one submarine left for the entire Red Banner Baltic Fleet. One Carl! Did the enemies also try, or maybe someone else? The same one who, for example, is preventing us from building a fleet in the Far East and North? And I don't mean Japanese or Koreans, or even seals or Eskimos.

            We have a zoo in the fleet because the leadership of the country has a zoo, and not because the Soviet non-legacy hangs like a stone around its neck. If not for this legacy, no Russian Federation as a country would exist at all.
            1. -1
              April 28 2022 01: 23
              And for you, is this news that Ukraine forbade us even to change armored personnel carriers to the Black Sea Fleet under the threat of a kick in the ass from Sevastopol? That because of this it was necessary to hold on to every ship and vessel to the last? belay Well, you have learned something new.
              Well, as for the rest of the hysteria, I see no reason to start srach. Your wrestling tantrums are parallel to me. If you don’t see that for the last 10 years hundreds of ships, submarines and ships have been constantly on the stocks and tests in the area, then it’s too much to say. If this is not the construction of a new fleet, then I don’t even know what it should look like. belay
              1. +1
                April 28 2022 18: 21
                And for you, is this news that Ukraine forbade us even to change armored personnel carriers to the Black Sea Fleet under the threat of a kick in the ass from Sevastopol?

                As all subsequent history shows, they were right in some way. Or did they also have to supply us with turbines so that we could de-Ukrainize them even more actively, in order to exactly meet the saying: with our own fat and for musal?

                However, even then, it would be possible to develop the infrastructure of the same Novorossiysk, Yeysk, Tuapse, Taganrog. It is realistic to develop, and not to bury billions in the sand under the guise of vigorous activity.
                Well, you have learned something new.

                Do not flatter yourself, you are hardly able to surprise me with something. No offense, not the same level.
                If you don’t see that for the last 10 years hundreds of ships, submarines and ships have been constantly on stocks and tests in the area,

                I don't see ships. I observe only scows, but they are also communication boats, which, due to a misunderstanding, are counted as ships, although with a wave of 3 points they are no longer able to perform at least the slightest combat missions.
    6. ban
      +3
      April 26 2022 07: 52
      You, excuse me, as always wrote nonsense!
    7. +2
      April 26 2022 08: 18
      We have a bunch of SU-24 aircraft. They have proven themselves well in Syria, but the current war is not for them. That is why they are on the ground.
      The same is with our Black Sea Fleet. He was not ready for war. Let it stand against the wall.
      Questions of course to the leadership of the fleet. The second war in the region, and the fleet is not ready. They wanted to do like the Americans. One supercomputer controls the entire ship, but our industry did not, and could not, pull it. The ground forces did not demand the impossible from the industry, and they are confidently shooting down Ukrainian "Points U". There, the time from detection to destruction is the same 30 ... 40 seconds. And during this time they manage to detect the target, report to higher authorities, get permission and destroy it.
      1. +9
        April 26 2022 11: 42
        We have a bunch of SU-24 aircraft. They have proven themselves well in Syria, but the current war is not for them. That is why they are on the ground.


        Why not for them? They can just as well launch the X-29, X-31 and throw cast iron, as the Su-34 does
        1. +5
          April 26 2022 15: 48
          Until all Ukrainian beeches and s300s are destroyed, there is nothing to do in the sky of Ukraine su-24
          1. +4
            April 26 2022 20: 20
            Is it okay that they are the carriers of funds against the S-300 and Bukov? And that they have implemented an approach to the target in the mode of enveloping the terrain? And that PRR of all types is applied to them?
            They were supposed to finish off the air defense.
      2. +1
        April 26 2022 11: 53
        Quote: ism_ek
        We have a bunch of SU-24 aircraft. They have proven themselves well in Syria, but the current war is not for them. That is why they are on the ground.
        The same is with our Black Sea Fleet. He was not ready for war. Let it stand against the wall.
        Questions of course to the leadership of the fleet. The second war in the region, and the fleet is not ready. They wanted to do like the Americans. One supercomputer controls the entire ship, but our industry did not, and could not, pull it. The ground forces did not demand the impossible from the industry, and they are confidently shooting down Ukrainian "Points U". There, the time from detection to destruction is the same 30 ... 40 seconds. And during this time they manage to detect the target, report to higher authorities, get permission and destroy it.


        The ship is not even controlled by a supercomputer.
        Regular Windows PC. Old Windows NT.
        Even any modern Celeron is able to fully control the entire ship.
        With well-written software.
        1. +11
          April 26 2022 12: 30
          Quote: SovAr238A
          The ship is not even controlled by a supercomputer.
          Regular Windows PC. Old Windows NT.

          Moreover, for a long time - back in the late 90s, the Smart Ship system based on NT was tested on Tiki. In 1997, on the CG-48 Yorktown, the onboard computer decided to divide by zero - and the ship lost its speed for 2,5 hours.
          1. +1
            April 26 2022 12: 35
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Quote: SovAr238A
            The ship is not even controlled by a supercomputer.
            Regular Windows PC. Old Windows NT.

            Moreover, for a long time - back in the late 90s, the Smart Ship system based on NT was tested on Tiki. In 1997, on the CG-48 Yorktown, the onboard computer decided to divide by zero - and the ship lost its speed for 2,5 hours.


            In the world of such examples - and without Windows NT enough.
        2. 0
          April 26 2022 15: 51
          I have introduced the control of all the weapons of the ship. Especially air defense and missile defense systems
      3. -1
        April 26 2022 14: 57
        Quote: ism_ek
        Questions of course to the leadership of the fleet

        I can still see how the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy kicks open the door to Putin's office ... where are the ships that I want ??? what bully
        1. +9
          April 26 2022 20: 24
          And I see how the prosecutor opens the office of the Commander-in-Chief from his feet and asks:

          - and why do you have the caps of the antennas of the RTR station rolled up with a ball? She's not radio-transparent!
          - And what about your "Wasp" antenna posts in the stowed position?
          - And why, knowing that the ship has not undergone modernization, and is unable to shoot down targets at ultra-low altitude with its own means, did not put a frigate on it, or did not put the "Tora" module on the flight deck?
          - Why did they send a cruiser there at all?
          - Why did you have only one ship from the entire fleet firing at a real target - "Grigorovich"?

          And, Sergey, how do you like this option?
          1. +5
            April 27 2022 10: 08
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Sergey, how do you like this option?

            Yes, nothing at all! The whole article is solid your fantasies Sasha!
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            She's not radio-transparent!

            If this was written by a miner deported from the fleet, I would have covered him with foul language, but you are a civilian! Sasha for the future, naval radars are painted not with ball paint, but with XB-518 protective enamel!
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And what are your "Wasp" antenna posts in the stowed position?

            What position should they be in?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And why are you, knowing that the ship has not undergone modernization, and is unable to shoot down targets at ultra-low altitude with its own means

            This is the fruit of your imagination and nothing more!
            For especially competent foreign agents ... Flag radar and Fregat-MA radar perfectly detect any targets, including anti-ship missiles! Frigate's antenna is located at a height of 40 meters, i.e. the detection range of anti-ship missiles flying at a height of 10 m is 38 km. The target detection time of 45 seconds you stated corresponds to a missile flying at a speed of 700 m/s. The speed of the Neptune-Harpoon is 290 m/s, the Penguin is 270 m/s, the Norwegian NSM is 320 m/s, based on this, the missile detection time increases to 115 seconds ..... time is a full car! So the theory about the defeat of Moscow by missiles can be shove to hell!
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            did not attach a frigate to him

            Or put on? Or didn't they? Where do you know from?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            did not put the Torah module on the flight deck?

            I'm sorry...what the fuck????
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Why was a cruiser sent there at all?

            Fishing, what are you thinking?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Why did you only have one ship out of the entire fleet firing at a real target - "Grigorovich"?

            Note that you learned about Grigorovich's firing from open sources, and then only because these firings took place in the Black Sea ... i.e. indicative! Do you know anything about the anti-aircraft missile firing of Russian ships in the Mediterranean?
            1. +2
              4 May 2022 13: 43
              Sasha for the future, naval radars are painted not with ball paint, but with XB-518 protective enamel!


              But at the "Moscow" they rolled up with a ball. Did not know?

              What position should they be in?


              Great question from a Navy officer!

              This is the fruit of your imagination and nothing more!
              For especially literate foreign agents ...


              But they don’t take targets at ultra-low altitudes, alas, and in your assessment of the range you didn’t take into account the low RCS of the rocket, which, however, is not surprising, since for characters like you it’s more important to lick the authorities than to win the war.

              I'm sorry...what the fuck????


              But because Moscow, in its condition, with its own means, cannot shoot down an inconspicuous anti-ship missile at an ultra-small (5-7 meters). And it was always clear.

              Note that you learned about Grigorovich's firing from open sources, and then only because these firings took place in the Black Sea ... i.e. indicative! Do you know anything about the anti-aircraft missile firing of Russian ships in the Mediterranean?


              Yes, I know that they are carried out against simulated targets and available target missiles (RM-15 and company), and the second option is extremely rare.
              1. +1
                5 May 2022 09: 50
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                But at the "Moscow" they rolled up with a ball. Did not know?

                Sasha, I won’t even ask where you know this from, but how Moscow managed to pass K-1 and K-2 with this paint, I’ll ask you to tell me in more detail !!!!
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Great question from a Navy officer!

                Those. do you think that at each entrance to the sea, the rockets should already be on the guides, the mines are open? I understand that the whole fruit of your fantasies revolves around this photo?

                Quote: timokhin-aa
                But they don’t take targets at ultra-low altitudes

                Can you prove it?
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                for characters like you, it's more important to lick the authorities than to win the war.

                Oh, how interesting .. why is it suddenly hysterical, did you get infected from Klimov?
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Moscow, in its condition with its own means, cannot shoot down an inconspicuous anti-ship missile at an ultra-small (5-7 meters).

                Come on???
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                And it was always clear

                Always what period of time? The Wasp of the Striking knocked down the Swift at 10 meters, and the Wasp of Moscow is very different from the Wasp of the Striking?

                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Yes, I know that they are carried out against simulated targets and available target missiles (RM-15 and company), and the second option is extremely rare.

                What does not suit you?
          2. 0
            4 May 2022 11: 37
            From the bottom of my heart, thank you!
            I would ask the same questions...

            A small clarification: the door is most likely double, the first one opens "outward", "with a tongue", so that it cannot be knocked out, the assistant must carefully open it.

            And the staff of the reception / guards (they need to "resolve the issue") should be asked to keep their hands in plain sight.

            Further IMHO there will be a "tambour", 30 centimeters and a door that opens "inward" (and again with a "tongue"). It can potentially be knocked out, but there are no such IMHO among prosecutors. Therefore, the assistant, having opened the first door, gently turns the handle - the occupant of the office tenses up, but there was no call from the reception room - and the prosecutor, already imitating a knock, hits the door with his fist a couple of times, from which it opens.

            And then "polite, but relevant to the moment, work according to an individual plan" ...
        2. +3
          April 27 2022 07: 43
          Quote: Serg65
          I can still see how the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy kicks open the door to Putin's office ... where are the ships that I want ??
          Putin gave a clear instruction - no conscripts in the combat zone ... And then such an elegant cruiser "Moskva" with a bunch of conscripts decided to fight. Two Neptune missiles are not lethal for such a large ship. But for some reason, the foreman of the boiler team of the survivability division, instead of fighting for the survivability of the ship, stopping the boiler, takes the conscript sailors on deck? How can conscript sailors fight for the survivability of a ship if they cannot even find an exit to the deck on their own? These are our questions to the leadership of the fleet.
          1. +3
            April 27 2022 12: 09
            Quote: ism_ek
            with a bunch of conscripts decided to fight

            Heap, how much is that?
            Quote: ism_ek
            Two Neptune rockets

            Why not three?
            Quote: ism_ek
            for some reason, the foreman of the boiler team of the survivability division, instead of fighting for the survivability of the ship, stopping the boiler, takes the conscript sailors on deck?

            Firstly, I don’t understand the position of senior midshipman ... foreman of the boiler team, this is understandable, the survivability division ... this is not clear!
            The survivability division consists of firefighters, divers and other "evil spirits". The purpose of this division is to ensure the unsinkability of the ship in the event of holes and other accidents ... given that Ivan Leonidovich was the foreman of the diving team on Ladny before Moscow, then it is clear about the Survivability Division. Most likely, he led one of the emergency parties and, as a LEADER, saved the crew members, for which he is honored, praised and bowed to the ground! Where did you get the information that he saved the sailors-conscripts?
            Quote: ism_ek
            How can conscript sailors fight for the survivability of a ship

            Yes, very easy! ANY crew member must be able to act in an emergency, for the training of EVERY crew member there is a naval training center !! Or do you think that a conscript is a privileged member of the crew and clogs fish with bones all day?
            Quote: ism_ek
            they can’t even find the exit to the deck on their own?

            Do you have anything to do with the Navy? Do you have any idea about the service on the ship?
            Quote: ism_ek
            These are our questions to the leadership of the fleet.

            First you need to figure out what you want to ask yourself, and then ask!
    8. +6
      April 26 2022 11: 40
      It seems that Mr. Timokhin does not understand well what the navy is for.


      It seems that Nafanya read one line from the article, and did not understand that one either. Write in which city you live, I'll try to find a defectologist for you.
      1. -8
        April 26 2022 12: 55
        Write in which city you live, I'll try to find a defectologist for you.

        Go check yourself. This is not me writing, but you. It is necessary to think with your head, and not with the place with which they go to the proctologist.
        1. +3
          April 26 2022 16: 19
          And I see you with a lot of experience in this matter)
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
    9. +3
      April 26 2022 12: 07
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      It seems that Mr. Timokhin does not understand well what the navy is for.

      It seems that you could not even finish reading the phrase from the article that you started quoting. They mastered it to the comma, and then incomprehensible words began?

      upd: I see that the author has already answered himself.
      1. -8
        April 26 2022 12: 57
        It seems that you could not even finish reading the phrase from the article that you started quoting. They mastered it to the comma, and then incomprehensible words began?

        Tamokhin is good! He got a translator, who undertook to interpret his confused thoughts.
        1. +4
          April 27 2022 00: 49
          [/ quote] Tamokhin is good! He got a translator, who undertook to interpret his confused thoughts. [/ Quote]
          Timokhin cannot keep up with your uryakalkas, so that a country without a fleet drowns a missile cruiser and a landing ship in a month, obviously no one can.
    10. -1
      April 26 2022 15: 25
      There is another problem - the lack of means of illuminating the air situation over the Black Sea and the coast. It is always impossible to drive long-range radar detection aircraft there, they are needed in other places, and the ships will not have enough of their own radars.
      Why would it be impossible? Control of the World Cup, Ukraine, Moldova, and the nearest NATO countries such as Romania is not the task for which AWACS aircraft were created? Are there more important tasks? As the author recognized the fleet is not capable of controlling this territory with its radars, then the question is, what for is he needed so beautiful?
      The A-50 (of which there are really few, but still they exist) is quite capable of this, and more than sure after the drowning of the "Moscow" it hangs there around the clock .. The straight-line distance from the Belbek airfield to Snake Island is about 272 km and that this is a problem for the aircraft with a range of 7500 km? What is the author smoking? It’s just that once again the fleet has proved that spending money on it is a waste .. And everything that the author offers is the same useless IBD, although in the conditions of the NWO this proposal should be considered as sabotage and sabotage by appropriate actions to the author of such proposals ..
      rs: I hope seaphiles will not prove that using 24\7 A-50 is more expensive than using 24\7 GK "Moscow" ..
      1. +5
        April 26 2022 15: 35
        Quote: max702

        rs: I hope seaphiles will not prove that using 24\7 A-50 is more expensive than using 24\7 GK "Moscow" ..

        There is a nuance.
        That in addition to the A-50 in 24/7, 2 Su-35s in 24/7 mode should be with it at the same time.
        And back to back.
        If they are not, then the A-50 will repeat the fate of the Republic of Kazakhstan and very quickly.
        1. -1
          April 26 2022 15: 51
          And what's the problem? In Syria, all sides were completely covered, but here the distances are even less. In terms of money, it’s still an order of magnitude cheaper than keeping a ship like Moscow .. And how much more efficient ..
          1. +4
            April 26 2022 16: 36
            Quote: max702
            And what's the problem? In Syria, all sides were completely covered, but here the distances are even less. In terms of money, it’s still an order of magnitude cheaper than keeping a ship like Moscow .. And how much more efficient ..


            In Syria, they covered for the duration of the flight one, two, maximum three pairs of attack aircraft or IS. stay in the air no more than 2 hours.

            And then, they began to cover up, only after the Turks shot down the Su-24 ...
            The analogy between Moscow and the Su-24 is, as it were, visible ....

            And here you need 24/7 and even a couple.
            constantly.
            The resource of engines that the A-50 has is small, no more than 10 thousand for new ones, and for existing ones, the residual is no more than 1000-2000.
            Al-41 engines have a resource of 4000 hours.

            Accordingly, provide the A-50, which also needs some kind of shelter, rest, repairs, etc. need 3 A-50 aircraft
            And to provide constant fighter cover - you need at least 12 Su-35S.
            1. -2
              April 26 2022 16: 56
              Quote: SovAr238A
              In Syria, they covered for the duration of the flight one, two, maximum three pairs of attack aircraft or IS. stay in the air no more than 2 hours.

              And who looked into the transporter with his nose? Some attack aircraft cover .. Everything and everyone is covered there around the clock, aviation, unlike the fleet, draws conclusions. By the clock, all this is nonsense! Factories are working, repairs will be made .. For this, military equipment was created to kill the resource on time to the database, otherwise it is not needed .. Will we take care of it? And how much damage will the enemy cause because of such savings?
              Yes, three A-50s and 12 SU35 \ 30 \ 27 is not so much, the task is important .. The drowned Moscow Civil Code is an order of magnitude more expensive, and the question of reputation is generally priceless .. Unless they could drag Kuznetsov on the advice of local gurus (he was saved that is under repair) and drown it ...
              1. 0
                April 27 2022 09: 36
                Quote: max702
                Quote: SovAr238A
                In Syria, they covered for the duration of the flight one, two, maximum three pairs of attack aircraft or IS. stay in the air no more than 2 hours.

                And who looked into the transporter with his nose? Some attack aircraft cover .. Everything and everyone is covered there around the clock, aviation, unlike the fleet, draws conclusions. By the clock, all this is nonsense! Factories are working, repairs will be made .. For this, military equipment was created to kill the resource on time to the database, otherwise it is not needed .. Will we take care of it? And how much damage will the enemy cause because of such savings?
                Yes, three A-50s and 12 SU35 \ 30 \ 27 is not so much, the task is important .. The drowned Moscow Civil Code is an order of magnitude more expensive, and the question of reputation is generally priceless .. Unless they could drag Kuznetsov on the advice of local gurus (he was saved that is under repair) and drown it ...


                We have only about 50 units of really flying A-6s throughout the country.
            2. 0
              April 30 2022 08: 00
              One AWACS aircraft over Crimea without cover is more effective than the entire Crimean RTV brigade and all Black Sea Fleet ships in terms of conducting aerial reconnaissance. And for interception and strike, two pairs of I and I-B are enough to be ready on Belbek. Why else would Crimea be like an unsinkable aircraft carrier?
      2. +3
        April 26 2022 16: 24
        Quote: max702
        A-50 (of which there are really few, but still they exist) is quite capable of this, and more than sure after the drowning of the "Moscow" it hangs there around the clock

        And why cook / believe.
        You check.
        Doesn't hang.
        1. -2
          April 26 2022 16: 57
          Quote: Jacket in stock
          You check.
          Doesn't hang.

          Is this how I check it? By flight radar?
      3. +6
        April 26 2022 20: 33
        Control of the World Cup, Ukraine, Moldova, and the nearest NATO countries such as Romania is not the task for which AWACS aircraft were created?


        A-50 is about 4 hours of patrolling for about 1000 km from the base airfield, then home. It will not handle more than one flight per day, ground handling is needed, in an emergency it can be hung up for 8 hours, with refueling in the air, but not every day.
        In total, 6 aircraft are needed per day, if they are placed outside the Tochka's coverage area. Just close one area.

        There is no other means that can stick around in a given area for at least as long as a ship.

        Are there more important tasks?


        Of course, Ukrainians have control over the northern border in order to prevent breakthroughs in the Russian Federation, to ensure the guidance of fighters on targets.

        As the author recognized the fleet is not capable of controlling this territory with its radars, then the question is


        Do not write a gag, the car did not write this. The fleet is quite capable of covering the situation in the air, and "Moskva" did it, the question is that it is necessary to repulse missile strikes, but here we were not ready.

        and what for is he so handsome?


        Here are figures like you for the last ten years with this issue and galloping, as a result, there was no one to control the combat readiness - the Russian fleet is not needed.
        And it was necessary to kick them in order to prepare for war.

        Because the fleet is needed. But he must be ready to fight. At least the existing composition.
        1. -1
          April 26 2022 21: 14
          A-50 is about 4 hours of patrol about 1000 km from the base airfield, That's for such and wrote Distance in a straight line from Belbek airfield to Zmeiny Island is about 272 km But they didn’t learn not to read, not to count. Where did you find 1000 km from the airfield? [i] Flight duration:
          Maximum without refueling: 9,3 hours [/i That is 6-8 hours in any way? Maybe 3 (three) A-50s will be enough? Why is the Belbek airfield not suitable for your service? For 8 years it was possible to prepare anything. For a war (real, not invented), it was necessary to prepare UAVs of all types, strengthen the aerospace forces, finally give what the infantry asks for, and not engage in the fantasies of the Navy, which spent the most money .. It seems to me that a couple of hundred attack aircraft would be useful in the NWO more than the entire Black Sea Fleet combined .. Or a thousand UAVs would have brought the same benefit, but it would have been possible for the Iskanders to put analogues of "Caliber" and not suffer with shoving these ships into the UVP .. Not to mention the KAZ for equipment, teploki and quadrics infantry .. But no, we blew the lion's share for the fleet and this is a fact .. And still, give a little more screaming .. Our brilliant naval talents categorically lack material and human resources!
          1. +1
            April 27 2022 19: 27
            But no, we squandered the lion's share on the fleet and this is a fact ..

            Oh well, you don't have to lie. The dispersal of clouds on May 9 costs more than a scheduled repair of some large surface ship. And there is also a tank biathlon, aivadarts, naval parades, an army forum and the main temple of the armed forces. And the conduct / maintenance of all this goodness also required money. The same money that could be spent on UAVs, thermal imagers or KAZ. And another 300 to 400 billion American rubles, instead of being invested in domestic production, including the military-industrial complex, remained in the hands of Western partners. Is Timokhin, with his dreams of a strong fleet and aircraft carriers, also to blame for this? Funny
            1. +2
              April 27 2022 21: 13
              There was a sign about spending on the 2020 military program, so that’s where the fleet got the most and this is a fact, unlike the saliva and splashes of your broadcast .. In the VKS, the benefits are visible, in the SV too, in the Strategic Missile Forces it’s quite for itself, but the Navy is in trouble for money spent the most effect is not even zero negative ! Good luck to you and good mood in your parallel universe.
              1. +1
                April 28 2022 00: 51
                There was a sign about spending on the military program 2020 so right there

                Well, no, that won't work. We are serious people. Therefore, please, give a link to official sources.

                Ps official sources are official bodies of state power of the Russian Federation and (or) persons who head them, as well as persons whose competence includes making statements on behalf of the leadership of official bodies of state power of the Russian Federation. Anonymous from the forum or neighbors in the stairwell / garage cooperative / ward for the insane - to officials do not apply.

                However, don't bother yourself. There are no official sources of data on how much and where they spent. Which, on the one hand, is correct. The only thing that is available to the general public is an article by a certain Yuri Fedorov for the Security Index of 2013, as well as a report from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies from 2015, which claim that it was planned to spend on the fleet within the SAP-2020 from 4,5 to 5 trillion. rub., for the Air Force 4,7 trillion, and for the VVKO - 3,4 trillion. rub. However, do not forget that the Air Force and VVKO were merged into the VKS in 2015, which means that their budgets also need to be summed up. In addition, the list of weapons that were planned to be purchased is interesting. So in the fleet section, 8 Borey submarines of project 955 are indicated, which it is understandable, because structurally they are part of the Navy, however, the very existence of these boats is due to the tasks of nuclear deterrence, which are being solved, including by the Strategic Missile Forces, for the renewal of which only a miserable trillion is allocated. The question reasonably arises, is it not worth taking away the cost of building the Boreys and including them in another section, for example, some kind of strategic nuclear forces that combines everything related to the nuclear triad?

                In addition, I would like to note that the SAP financing program, based on the pace of its implementation and inflation indicators, is adjusted annually. So the final figures will be radically different from those planned to be spent initially. Therefore, the only available way to calculate the costs of SAP-2020 is to open the report of the Minister of Defense on the results of rearmament for the specified period, and multiply the amount of equipment announced in it by its cost. If data on the cost of a particular unit for the domestic army is not publicly available, then you can always focus on the cost of this product on the international market, from which you just need to subtract from 10-15% walrus, which plants receive on foreign orders.

                Once you're done with this exercise, feel free to share your results. At the same time, let's compare how my calculations differ from yours.

                And do not forget, you still have not explained to me how the tank biathlon, air darts, all kinds of parades, the army forum and the construction of the main temple of the armed forces had a positive effect on the country's defense. Looking forward to your response.
                1. 0
                  April 28 2022 07: 31
                  You can play with words and numbers for a long time and stubbornly, but the fact remains that the fleet took the most, the results are minus ..

                  т
                  1. 0
                    April 28 2022 18: 10
                    Excuse me, are you in the bunker? I described to you in Russian words what can be done with this tablet. It has nothing to do with reality. This is just an approximate plan of the SAP, compiled on the basis of publications in open sources, as indicated in a footnote by the author of this table. No more and no less.
                    1. 0
                      April 28 2022 20: 57
                      Duc and your words only draw on the wall of the toilet and no more ..
    11. +5
      April 26 2022 16: 14
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      It seems that Mr. Timokhin does not understand well what the navy is for.

      no, it’s you who don’t understand what a fleet is
      The Americans even hide the AUG with a full warrant, although the protection of such a connection is very high. The fact is that no matter how you protect the ship, if it is not detected, then this is the best protection. An attack can be planned only by constantly tracking the target and predicting its behavior.
    12. 0
      April 26 2022 16: 15
      It looks like Nafanya can't read, which isn't surprising at all.
    13. +1
      April 26 2022 16: 18
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      It seems that Mr. Timokhin does not understand well what the navy is for. Military sailors, like all other military men, receive their salary in peacetime because the state, at the right time, has the right to send its military into battle

      Very funny.
      You have a sailor on a boat, an oar and a peakless one, go kill an aircraft carrier with an oar, right?
  2. +14
    April 26 2022 04: 53
    Let Shoigu and Putin read this.
    1. +24
      April 26 2022 07: 40
      Quote: Cooper
      Let Shoigu and Putin read this.

      These two will not draw any conclusions even after the war (our Victory). If there was no ability to analyze, to soberly assess the state of the Russian Armed Forces before the war, then brains will not increase after. Now the Parade with Armata tanks, BTR Boomerang, BMP Kurganets will pass, speeches about the fight against Nazism will die down and everyone will be happy again. They will give out the stars of the Heroes by closed decrees (I wonder if the degenerate Zolotov will receive?) And that's it. Again there will be work for the sake of work. They will build useless corvettes 20380, depl 636.3, mrk 22800, upgrade the T-72 tanks in the fourth round, and already obsolete directly from the factory Su-30SM and Su-34 in their current configuration. And drones for another 10 years will be finished and finalized. There is plenty of time, we are not a warring country, after all, Switzerland.
      I'm sorry, friends, but something came up.
      1. +22
        April 26 2022 11: 44
        Not at you one has rolled. The authorities missed the moment that the people are not stupid, just misinformed very much, and that now it looks like the boiler will start to heat up.
        This war will change the country beyond recognition.
        1. +5
          April 26 2022 12: 10
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          This war will change the country beyond recognition.

          This is where I doubt it. I'm afraid that nothing fundamentally will change.
          1. +11
            April 26 2022 12: 38
            Quote: DenVB
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            This war will change the country beyond recognition.

            This is where I doubt it. I'm afraid that nothing fundamentally will change.


            Do not doubt.
            All these sanctions, the embargo at the current level of development of events will do much harm to the people.
            Now we are just still going along the knurled path.
            Do not count your chickens before they are hatched.
            And what the people will think by the winter - we ourselves will find out in our own skin.
            But the fact that it will never be the same as it was even on February 20, that these times will never return is already a fact.
        2. +4
          April 26 2022 12: 56
          The authorities missed the moment that the people are not stupid
          Not at all. Projects for introducing unanimity in Russia have already started so that the people do not allow themselves too much. The presidential administration recommended introducing the institute of deputy heads for information and political work in federal ministries, departments and state companies. https://www.rbc.ru/politics/23/04/2022/626384d69a794748ab83346a? And at the same time, to expand the concept of "foreign agent" to those whose thoughts will differ from those broadcast from the Kremlin.
          1. -3
            April 26 2022 19: 58
            A very correct decision. And then those who want to change power in a warring country, well, just dofiga. You can see it right on this thread.
          2. -1
            April 27 2022 01: 03
            [quote][Not at all. Projects for introducing unanimity in Russia have already started so that the people do not allow themselves too much./quote]
            But here you are wrong. In December 1916, no one imagined what would happen in February 1917, but the reasons are generally the same.
            1. +1
              April 28 2022 09: 11
              You know, sometimes I wish I was wrong.
        3. -1
          April 27 2022 00: 55
          This war will change the country beyond recognition.

          How do you predict the development of the situation? What are we going to do according to you?
      2. -1
        6 July 2022 15: 21
        These two and after the war (our Victory)

        Victory..
        And what do you mean by it?
        Tanks in Lvov, annexation piecemeal, Russian general governors of the occupied regions?
        From the height of some afterthought, what is happening is reminiscent of the Soviet-Finnish war.
        (Can you remind me why 130 Red Army soldiers were buried there?).
        And the modern Russian Federation had / still has by no means a self-isolated economy, like the USSR.
        Rosstat pleased: the auto industry -97% (!) what is this?
        Which type of wise men in the Security Council predicted this? And what will happen next?
        I will assume that at the level of the last 10 years, our citizens will not live again soon ... Except for a small number of the elect, of course sad
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. -11
      April 26 2022 16: 59
      An investigator from the Investigative Committee needs to read this, and call the author for interrogation ..
  3. +13
    April 26 2022 05: 09
    that's why Russians use mat instead of reports and commands - capaciously and quickly. and hard to learn, easy to fight. If, during military service, I trained every day at the point, since there was nothing else to do, I pointed, rearranged the mortar, from the landmark to the landmark and even from the bipod I took it off and put it on the bend of my arm, then on the test I have the first one right on target, and according to the standard, only 2 per shooting. and those who didn’t hit at all received a banner from SPG9 along the ridge, and our demobilization crew was among the first.
    1. kig
      +8
      April 26 2022 05: 34
      Quote: Igor Ivanov_4
      and our demobilization calculation is among the first
      it turns out that you prematurely deprived our army of a well-prepared calculation ... a joke, if anything.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      24 May 2022 21: 03
      Not so simple. Any equipment in the "combat alert" mode can work for a limited time (usually an hour for the fleet, but for some air defense systems it can be only 1 minute), after which it must be rolled back to "readiness No. 1". How much are they chasing the maximum speed of transition between these modes, and on modern air defense systems (such as Pantsir and Redoubt), this figure was brought up to 5-8 seconds. And in combat mode, the system is a full automatic and shoots everything that threatens, from Neptunes to sparrows. And in readiness No. 1 - with handles (you can silently, just poking at the buttons).
      There are two subtleties here: If you fire a rocket from a range of less than 8-10 seconds of flight time, the ship is defenseless. Well, after an hour, anyway, remove the combat readiness for the complex (and what then? The gyroscopes in the missiles should stop, the homing head cooling system should cool down, and so on and so forth). Here is such a bullshit...
      PS
      "By hearsay" (let's not talk about the source) I know about the ship, which, upon leaving combat readiness, remained only with the AK-630 for almost a day (well, at least there was a chance to shoot down the KR if the ship was not damaged) and artillery
  4. +13
    April 26 2022 05: 28
    It took 26 seconds to make presentations even on video
    In a good way, everything flying towards the ship (and not transmitting the “own” code on the radio) should go down automatically, without the participation of the crew and without any reports.

    In general, most voice commands can be replaced with something faster and more understandable (especially in noisy environments). Take artillery: what is the consumption of shells, is there a shell in the barrel - all this is detected by penny electronic counters and sensors. Commanders can look at the tablet and find out the statistics for the battery or division in a second.
    1. +9
      April 26 2022 05: 57
      Quote: t-12
      In a good way, everything flying towards the ship (and not transmitting the “own” code on the radio) should go down automatically, without the participation of the crew and without any reports.

      especially if it happens in the conditions of the CO...
      For complete happiness, we do not have enough for some ship to shoot missiles at the Crimean bridge ...
    2. ban
      -1
      April 26 2022 07: 47
      Unfortunately, every missile fired in our country must have a first and last name ... What is in the air defense, what is in the Navy
  5. kig
    +13
    April 26 2022 05: 39
    . It took 26 seconds to make presentations even by video
    I strongly suspect that this video is staged. In a good way. The target was shot down long before that, then the Ministry of Defense decided that it should be noted, then a team of journalists arrived ... that's why everything happens so slowly and smoothly there
    1. +1
      April 26 2022 21: 45
      Igor! You absolutely hit the "hole"!
      Everything is just like that. Yes
    2. 0
      24 May 2022 21: 11
      Exactly. Of the real ones, there will be "Ready No. 1" (the dialogue is reduced to 4 words, an answer of 2 and pressing two buttons), or "Combat alert" (a dialogue of 2 words, pressing one button in manual mode). On alarm, they can generally transfer to an automatic machine, then everything and everyone will go astray, but for a limited time (because the rockets overheat).
  6. +25
    April 26 2022 05: 45
    And, for example, the Moskva missile cruiser has a target illumination radar Was one on a swivel base, it can direct missiles IT WAS only in a limited sector, in order to target missiles at anti-ship missiles coming from a different course, the radar antenna must be IT WAS turn, and it's time again.

    Because RK "Moscow" rests at the bottom.
    Russia is building ships so slowly and so expensively, and shipyards are so limited in capacity, that the loss of combat units from anti-ship missiles from the shore is simply not acceptable. And if you continue to treat the situation lightly, then these losses are inevitable.

    The high cost of ships and other high-tech products lies in the 20% VAT ... Soviet weapons were distinguished by simplicity and cheapness ... Because the director of Sovtekh did not need to fill up with loot so that he planned to live comfortably in his old age in Spain ... And himself Sovtekh did not exist and could not exist. All these moans about the lack of opportunities simply fade before the various projects of modern Russia, pumping out human resources and funds from a meager budget.
    Why skinny? We live beyond our means and the provision of MILLIONS of various functionaries is not according to their abilities ... The state is not even able to provide treatment for children ... You can only hear so many millions are needed ...
    The dead economic model of the state gives rise to stillborn projects in all areas. planning, personal responsibility for the task assigned and reporting on cases have been discarded ... Why don’t our leaders share their thoughts on where they will find sources of income in the system of a speculative market economy? Why don’t they tell how columns of unemployed people of high-tech professions don’t hang around the thresholds of Russian consulates in the hope of obtaining Russian citizenship...
    =====
    The death of RK "Moskva" says that it is NOT HELL TO PUT TEARS ON HAIR, REMOVING THE HEAD.
    It's time to play tin soldiers. The time has come to scatter the stones on which our liberal values ​​still stand in the form of monuments to reformers and centers for the study of all-Russian shame.
    1. +1
      April 26 2022 07: 35
      Russia is building nuclear-powered missile carriers that are larger in displacement than the Moskva cruiser. It would be necessary ... They would build a bunch of surface ships. The problem is that Russia does not need a fleet at this stage. Let it stand against the wall and not shine. Well, or at the training grounds, they are training to repel missile attacks.
      Hundreds of Kh-35 missiles (aka Neptune, Uranus, etc.) have already been fired across Ukraine. Why were exercises not conducted before the war? Target missiles were available .... It is necessary to drive the leadership of the fleet from their posts.
      1. +11
        April 26 2022 11: 45
        The problem is that Russia does not need a fleet at this stage.


        It may be needed at any time and not only in Ukraine. It's heading for a big war.
        They just prepared the fleet for parades and not for war, alas.
        1. +4
          April 26 2022 13: 51
          It may be needed at any time and not only in Ukraine. It's heading for a big war.
          They just prepared the fleet for parades and not for war, alas.

          Not only the fleet, unfortunately, but also the army. In particular, I would like to note high-ranking officers who, as the war showed, do not know how to fight.
          Parades and war are two different things.
          The bad thing is that we get this lesson at a high price, the price of our soldiers.
        2. -1
          April 26 2022 15: 40
          in general, it’s interesting, but how, at reasonable (for us) costs, could the fleet help in a big war, mainly in the European theater of operations?
          1. +2
            April 26 2022 21: 55
            Quote: prodi
            in general, it’s interesting, but how, at reasonable (for us) costs, could the fleet help in a big war, mainly in the European theater of operations?

            Probably CALIBER. And the boats would cut off the delivery of reinforcements from the United States. In the event of an aggravation of the situation, both the RPK SN and SSGNs with mallets could be used ... But this is an extreme case.
            AHA.
            1. -1
              April 27 2022 07: 21
              those. it must be understood that the fleet operates in the Atlantic, in complete isolation from the supply (with the same Caliber), and against the US fleet. Against this background, Tu-95 raids along the borders of Europe, with the same Caliber, look much more convincing: they flew off, unloaded and back to reload
    2. +7
      April 26 2022 12: 15
      In general, the air defense of the Moskva cruiser was already outdated by the time it was launched (it was then called Slava). Neither "Fort" nor "Osa-M" could shoot down low-flying Harpoons and Exocets. That is, they could, but with a small probability. Of course, in the USSR this problem would have been solved, most likely, by the mid-90s.
      1. +10
        April 26 2022 12: 38
        Quote: DenVB
        In general, the air defense of the Moskva cruiser was already outdated by the time it was launched (it was then called Slava). Neither "Fort" nor "Osa-M" could shoot down low-flying Harpoons and Exocets.

        So 1164 is not a lone raider, but part of the KUG. As part of the formation, they were supposed to be a "long arm" - heavy long-range anti-ship missiles and air defense systems DD. And in the near zone, air defense would be provided by the same 1155 with their "Daggers".
  7. +21
    April 26 2022 05: 50
    The author is right, ships were catching up in parades. Dust in the eyes - the reality of the surface fleet.
    1. +6
      April 26 2022 18: 27
      I'm afraid that dust in the eyes is the general state of the armed forces as a whole and not just the fleet.
  8. -1
    April 26 2022 05: 54
    It is believed that Churchill said - the best air defense is our tanks on enemy airfields.
    Maybe it's worth destroying the launchers? And use our world's best radio electronic warfare that was so praised before all this?
    the whole article is an excellent rationale for why ships should close and not control the coast. Let us let the deliveries of weapons and ammunition go through the ports of Odessa. This is not even a railway for you; you can carry a huge amount of everything on one ship
  9. -15
    April 26 2022 05: 54
    Missile threat in the Black Sea

    If the RK "Moscow" is sunk by missiles, then Russia has every right to sink ALL warships entering the Black Sea and not belonging to the Black Sea countries.
    Yes, gentlemen... That's right.
    1. +16
      April 26 2022 06: 12
      On what basis?
      In addition, Turkey has not allowed warships into the straits since the beginning of the conflict.
      And how will your proposal solve the problem of coastal complexes and strikes against our ships and fleet bases?
      1. -12
        April 26 2022 08: 26
        Quote: Tlauicol
        On what basis?

        Based on belonging to the accomplices of the Nazi regime.
        =====
        Did the Nazis sink convoys? Ours drowned the Nazis ...
        stop Who prevents us from drowning neo-Nazis?
  10. +5
    April 26 2022 06: 18
    until there is an official interpretation of what happened to "Moscow" there, one should not so unambiguously lean towards the version about the Ukrainian rocket "Neptune". By the way, the United States, in unison with Ukraine, simultaneously sang that Ukrainian Neptune missiles hit the Moskva cruiser. And if this simultaneous cry is only to divert from the true origin and deployment of the missiles that hit the cruiser? From American missiles "Harpoon" fired from the coast or from the territory. Romanian waters?
    And now what - the Ukrainian rocket Neptune! After all, Ukraine said that it has Neptune rockets. Well, you believe that it was the Neptunes who hit the cruiser. It is not necessary, until it is not known what exactly happened, to run in front and explain why the cruiser "Moskva" died and what should have been done and who should have done it so that this would not happen. And after all, no one has officially ruled out the version with a sea mine and sabotage on board the cruiser itself ...
  11. -5
    April 26 2022 06: 46
    somehow strange the author writes, the technique must be working! but this is not always the case. it turns out that the ships go to sea unfit for combat ??? Do you know this author?
    1. +5
      April 26 2022 13: 42
      I confirm that they will never report and shut up about malfunctions!
  12. +7
    April 26 2022 06: 56
    Actually, it's an interesting situation. The ship arrived in the combat area and its main task is to protect itself from enemy missiles? And what was the purpose of arriving at the war for the cruiser Moskva? Check your "body armor"?
    1. +13
      April 26 2022 11: 46
      We can assume control over communications and the air situation, preventing the enemy from landing on Zmein.
      Normal tasks, the ship was just not ready for them.
      1. -3
        April 26 2022 12: 22
        I'm not sure about your task for this cruiser. Initially, in its design and construction, it was assigned a different role. An example is a sapper shovel, paratroopers were taught to use it when the cartridges ran out. You just need to sharpen its edges well. But if you are given this "tool" for peeling potatoes in the kitchen, what happens? One husk ... I have already said that the Moskva cruiser was "sharpened" to fight enemy aircraft carriers, and according to your version, it was used as a locator (radar) to control the air situation off the enemy coast. Where could enemy aircraft carriers come from?
        1. +13
          April 26 2022 12: 42
          This is not a task for a cruiser, but in principle we do not have so many ships in the Black Sea Fleet. According to the mind, it was necessary to keep a frigate there, this one would technically be able to shoot down a rocket.
  13. +17
    April 26 2022 07: 06
    Thanks to the author for the article. The death of the RRC Moscow and the BDK showed the correctness of your articles with Klimov. It is a pity that our fleet and shipbuilding are not led by such dedicated people as you.
  14. -23
    April 26 2022 07: 16
    If you listen to the author, then everything is sad with us, and are we hopeless? Probably not students are in command of the fleet, there is interaction between aviation, infantry on land, ships on water. .Victory will still be ours, Russia will defeat the Nazis.
    1. ban
      +13
      April 26 2022 07: 50
      Yes, we just throw hats on them, yeah
    2. +9
      April 26 2022 08: 20
      You are in a capricious mood ...
    3. +7
      April 26 2022 10: 20
      I would generally keep silent about the command of the Black Sea Fleet.
      Nothing can be said without a mat.
    4. +12
      April 26 2022 11: 47
      That is, you need to surgically open your eyes to reality, there are not enough sunken BDKs and a missile cruiser, right?
    5. +1
      April 26 2022 21: 54
      Yes, we will win. The question is at what cost?
  15. -19
    April 26 2022 08: 02
    Some kind of "drooping" article ... the author seems to know everything about what is happening in the fleet. I don’t think that absolutely all the “games” of the military are immediately posted to the public, why? But what about military secrets? Perhaps the whole range of necessary measures is being carried out, it's just that the author was not notified about this by the Ministry of Defense ...
  16. -11
    April 26 2022 08: 05
    A two-rotor electric helicopter installation with a circular view locator, controlled by cables, could significantly expand the detection zone.
  17. +12
    April 26 2022 08: 16
    As always. We sat in the toilet, but there was no paper. We sit and think what to do. It turned out - it was necessary to prepare in advance.
  18. +7
    April 26 2022 09: 16

    3R41 "Volna" - a radar station for tracking and illuminating the target of the ship's anti-aircraft missile system S-300F "Fort". Photo: Wikipedia

    What kind of wave is this?
    This is 3P41 "Tit".
    1. +13
      April 26 2022 11: 47
      But I couldn't write like that.
  19. +5
    April 26 2022 09: 37
    Again the same thing.
    How many articles about low-flying anti-ship missiles have already been in VO - and do not count.
    And logically, there should be cover ships.

    But for now, there is what is.
    1. +4
      April 26 2022 11: 53
      This debate will go on forever.
      It has long been calculated that if low-flying targets are not shot down by missiles on approach, then the real zone of destruction by artillery starts from 700-800 meters to 200-300 with all superstructures flying into the side.
  20. -3
    April 26 2022 10: 25
    After the death of the flagship, the fleet cannot "react". The infantry must react.
  21. +7
    April 26 2022 10: 26
    Great article! At least one author did not hesitate to tell the truth, no matter how bitter it was.
    I want to add that at this stage the exercises will not help. The ships must operate as part of a formation, under the cover of aviation and early warning radar. Anchoring under the cover of a tugboat is not considered a connection.
    If at least one of the security factors is missing, you need to save the fleet, and not launch three missiles at the station. Others can do it.
  22. +6
    April 26 2022 10: 50
    And one more possibility - the same modular Tor air defense system, from which they fired when he stood on the deck of the Grigorovich. This air defense system can be put on a ship that does not have missile weapons at all, for example, on a project 22160 patrol ship. It will not become a missile ship in the true meaning of these words, but it will receive some kind of ability to fire at anti-ship missiles. The same module can be placed in the strengthening of the frigate. On the "Moscow", by the way, it could also be put.

    And this module can definitely work from the deck? Because, according to the results of tests at the Grigorovich, the press service of the Dome issued a statement that, translated into Russian, sounds like "the module can work from the deck "in principle" (read - under ideal conditions), the previous theoretical working algorithms are no good, you will have to refine them based on real data".
    As explained in the press service of IEMZ Kupol, in addition to confirming the fundamental possibility of using a land-based air defense system from the deck of a ship, the tests provided a large amount of data on the effect of pitching on the operation of the Tor-M2 air defense system, the effect of waves on target detection and tracking, anti-aircraft guidance guided missile. A large amount of information has been obtained that is necessary for adapting the algorithms for the combat operation of a land-based air defense system in sea conditions. This will allow to continue work on the unification of "marine" and "land" air defense systems.
    © Star
    As a result of this “algorithm refinement”, the marine Tor turned from a “single module” (initial concept) into a standard multi-module complex for the Navy (with radar, air defense, control modules), the installation of which requires hull work.
    1. +8
      April 26 2022 11: 49
      He normally shot from the deck last year and the algorithms were finalized there. Of course, there are restrictions, but right now in the World Cup, taking into account the weather, they can be said to be absent.
      And on the day of the death of the ship was not.
  23. +6
    April 26 2022 11: 43
    Quote: Alien From
    The author is right, ships were catching up in parades. Dust in the eyes - the reality of the surface fleet.

    And not only the fleet. This is a systemic problem throughout the country. sad
  24. +1
    April 26 2022 11: 49
    And you also need to make the very decision to use weapons, to ensure the distribution of targets
    - and you don't need to decide and involve anything. "Near range" should work automatically, the main thing is not to forget to turn it on in time after prevention and other things.
    The system must be combined - with automatic and duplex modes of operation (for the possibility of interaction with other systems).
    And you need to add a normal short-range missile system.
  25. +2
    April 26 2022 11: 55
    The world is entering the hypersonic era, and 20 seconds for reports is becoming an unaffordable luxury.

    Equipping a project 22160 patrol ship with Torami is a sound idea. There will be some value in this ship.
  26. +8
    April 26 2022 12: 34
    the modular Tor air defense system on the helipad is sad.
    It's sad because:
    - It is completely incompatible in interaction with the ship's CICS.
    - It works only from the signals of its own radar, located a dozen or two dozen meters below the ship's surveillance radar, respectively, it has a much smaller target detection zone.
    - interaction of the crew sitting inside the modular air defense system with the entire ship's command and control system - only through voice communication.

    I will probably repeat over and over again that:
    1. We urgently need, first of all, to develop protocols and common standards for the system of interaction between weapons, means of detection, means of control and combat use.
    Make it just good. And take it as the standard.
    All missiles must be identical in terms of connection to the CICS.
    The PROM of each missile, each torpedo must contain information about the possibilities of its use.
    It's not that difficult really. This was implemented already 30 years ago at the dawn of the first OS.
    That open architecture.
    Do we need to put a ground Thor or Buk, Bal or Bastion on the deck?
    We put it, connect it to the CICS, the CICS "interrogated" the new connection, received information from the missiles' PROM and can use them in the same way as if it used its regular Calm, Dagger, Dagger or Caliber or Onyx.

    2. To standardize a single VPU module in standard sizes with the possibility of assembling several modules in scalable needs. Based on Lego. Corvette 16-24, Frigate 32-48, Destroyer 64-96, Cruiser 128 and more.
    And all possible ships should be initially designed taking into account the use of this particular single module.
    And all possible missiles should also be designed with this single module in mind. For 30-40 years ahead.
    And don't accept any rejections.
    Designers screaming about "cancel the standard and I will give you" another unparalleled in the world "- deprive of work, titles, pensions and with the whole family up to 7 knees to polar bears, regardless of merits. Kyle to wave, because if the designer's brain refuses to accept standards and work on them, fit into them, this is not a constructor - this is a "future digger".

    3. All electronic means of radar, RTR, electronic warfare and BIUS must also be subject to and comply with the uniform standards of interaction. So that it would be possible in a group of ships to have full interaction of all CCMS, as if they were working as a "single" whole.
    When observation is carried out by one ship, and the rest everyone sees exactly the same information in real time on their CICS. When the commander of the group's flagship can use the target designations of one ship while firing from another ship, while he himself is on the third ship.
    This makes a group of ships - one huge missile carrier, with several levels of duplication of radar, sonar, electronic warfare, electronic warfare, RTR.
    Super important!
    It also increases combat stability.
    If suddenly a PRLR flew to some ship and demolished all the target tracking radars, then in the current conditions, the ship becomes completely incompetent!
    And in the case of standardization of control and data exchange, its ammunition can not only be used further in battle, but must also be used in the first place!

    The naval and not only command should come to this concept.
    And set such tasks for designers.
    1. +11
      April 26 2022 12: 43
      You are right about everything, but all this has not been done, and now it's too late and there is only a module and that's it.
    2. -1
      April 26 2022 20: 36
      But Maxim Klimov is transmitting

      On all counts, this is not the case.
      There are problems, but very different.
      As of today - ABM can be installed "right now", however, the application is subject to existing restrictions
  27. +2
    April 26 2022 12: 40
    Quote: Evgenijus
    And what was the purpose of arriving at the war for the cruiser Moskva?

    The goal was to provide air defense for the landing operation, that is, to suppress sufficiently distant and high targets
    The article says that the A-50s are used elsewhere, in which?
    Why do they write the detection range of a harpoon, and then write about its EPR, can it change?
    1. +5
      April 26 2022 12: 49
      Quote: svoit

      Why do they write the detection range of a harpoon, and then write about its EPR, can it change?

      RCS changes with angle.
      The detection range depends on the weather.
      They say that a small steep wave can greatly reduce the detection range of a radar flying towards an anti-ship missile target, almost by several times.
  28. -6
    April 26 2022 12: 46
    Often conducted exercises imply a surplus of funds available to the military for such purposes. In the conditions of our constantly shrinking or stagnating economy, we will not have such a surplus of funds. We should, whenever possible, develop realistic simulations for continuous training of personnel, this is the most affordable solution.
  29. -4
    April 26 2022 12: 46
    Often conducted exercises imply a surplus of funds available to the military for such purposes. In the conditions of our constantly shrinking or stagnating economy, we will not have such a surplus of funds. We should, whenever possible, develop realistic simulations for continuous training of personnel, this is the most affordable solution.
  30. -4
    April 26 2022 12: 46
    Often conducted exercises imply a surplus of funds available to the military for such purposes. In the conditions of our constantly shrinking or stagnating economy, we will not have such a surplus of funds. We should, whenever possible, develop realistic simulations for continuous training of personnel, this is the most affordable solution.
  31. +2
    April 26 2022 13: 12
    The target missile must be able to self-destruct in the event of a breakthrough to the ship, otherwise we risk losing the fleet during the exercises.
    Given such a short reaction time, the ship's missile defense systems must operate in a fully automatic mode. But all these reports back and forth IMHO the last century. One can still understand when it comes to an aircraft detected at a great distance and height, but when it comes to a low-flying, high-speed target heading for a ship, it is completely incomprehensible what else to report there.
  32. +9
    April 26 2022 13: 35
    For the past 10 years, everyone and sundry has been writing about the problems of the Black Sea and not only the fleet - from super experts to couch worries. And frankly, if you do not take into account that part of the audience that constantly squeals that "We can do it again!" (To Berlin) and gouging NATO in a week, then the rest of the adequate people understood perfectly well that our fleet is not able to withstand anti-ship missiles from enemy ships, submarines and aircraft. And now from the shore. I remember someone in an article on the VO right before the start of the NWO wrote that the Ukrainian "Ball" was not brought to mind, this is a remake of an old Soviet rocket and our ships will easily sneeze it even almost at the start. In addition, there is only one complex and our intelligence will track it down and destroy it in the very first hours of the war ... In general, Russia's huge problem is SHOWING from the authorities, from officials, from the media controlled by them. Starting from constant promises from year to year of accepting something "unparalleled in the world" to fraud at the training grounds - where the exercises are for beautiful personnel and reporting to the leadership, and not for preparing for a real war. Not to mention frankly criminal broadcasts such as "military acceptance" on Zvezda, where they constantly reveal the performance characteristics of the military equipment of the Russian Federation and the deployment of troops and training grounds, military-industrial complex plants. At the same time, praising the technique to the divine skies. And then, in the very first military conflict, this super technique gets knocked down, drowned, hit by the enemy and burns like a match. But you just need to silently create, test, bring to mind military equipment and means, take it into service, and using it in battle, admit mistakes and correct them, and not PR and praise your loved ones. Unfortunately, conclusions can be drawn - the Russian military leadership did not draw conclusions after the 2008 conflict with Georgia. Kanashenkov's victorious roulades in the very first days of the operation about the "practically destroyed Air Force and Air Defense of Ukraine" and other tales - the subsequent losses of the Russian Aerospace Forces became a cooling icy shower. The problems in the army are the same - there is no modern secure communications, there is no necessary amount of special equipment in ground units - starting from calimators, thermal imagers and field modern reconnaissance equipment. They are wildly few. Not to mention the crazy shortage of radars and counter-battery target designation, strike UAVs and AWACS aircraft. Yes, and tactical aviation did not show any serious strength in the NWO, despite the high professionalism and courage of our pilots. The front-line military air defense became famous for not being able to detect low-flying helicopters ... There are hundreds of problems. I really hope that when the tasks of the NMD are completed (and I am sure that they will be completed thanks to the courage and courage of our field-level soldiers and officers), then finally the leadership of Russia and the army command will draw conclusions and begin to equip and train the army and navy precisely for real high-performance combat operations with a serious enemy, and not for parades and exhibitions, not for PR and window dressing. They cost too much - at the cost of the lives of our military and the disruption of operations.
  33. +1
    April 26 2022 13: 36
    The author forgot to mention electronic warfare equipment, both active and passive against anti-ship missiles. LTS and LDC.
    If put ha deck module tor, it can't work 24 hours a day. Need a break. There is safety in numbers.
  34. 0
    April 26 2022 13: 48
    Timokhin Lavra Leskovsky Left-handers do not let you sleep.
    In England, guns are not cleaned with brick

    Only the point is not that the guns are rusty, but that the British switched to rifled weapons and therefore the Russian ones are morally obsolete and require replacement
  35. +3
    April 26 2022 13: 49
    Like the article, "hardware" of course.

    It is also very good that the author mentioned the British exercises: “The British Navy after the Falklands War (and the loss of ships in it) adopted the so-called “Thursday exercises” (held mainly on Thursdays) with massive overflights and imitation of strikes by special groups of aircraft from well-trained pilots, electronic warfare equipment, simulators of the GOS anti-ship missiles, etc. " - IMHO, if I remember Woodward correctly, these exercises bore fruit: in the "Gulf War" the British shot down one Iraqi anti-ship missile, one was rejected by interference (but IMHO, there the initial detection of launches was still AWACS).

    It would be nice to also mention the activity (or inactivity) of the AU, the same AK 630 and their analogues: Volcanoes / Goalkeepers and Oerlikon Millennium, which can automatically select targets and destroy them (for example, "targets going to the ship at a certain speed are automatically destroyed") .
    Which is better - a direct hit or a "fragmentation field"? My IMHO, we are still far from the "field of fragments", so there is only one option left for us. And for anti-ship missiles, a direct hit IMHO is preferable.

    Or mention the electronic warfare / LC, which can also act automatically.
    By the way, I saw different options for the British: "set up a LC and leave the LC cloud for Exocets" and "set up a LC cloud and stay in it for Russian missiles."
    IMHO, different tactics were due to different expected behavior of missiles: for missiles that fly "straight" (Exoset) - "LC cloud" and escape; for missiles that can "slide in front of the target and dive" it was considered safer to "survive" the attack in the "LC cloud", probably because of the fear of "re-targeting".

    Everything in one article, of course, cannot be, so for what is written - hi

    Well, "not for iron" feel
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    The problem is that Russia does not need a fleet at this stage.


    It may be needed at any time and not only in Ukraine. It's heading for a big war.
    They just prepared the fleet for parades and not for war, alas.
    Well, if you run to the locomotive shouting "cue!" and "war is inevitable!" the result will be predictable. You can try not to run, but people are not interested, IMHO. I want thrills and on TV already "everything is not right."
    "They just prepared the fleet for parades and not for war" - the parades this year will be extraordinary, IMHO. And the filming, and the "texture" and the voice acting and the audience, and even the concert "immediately after" - everything will be at the highest level, rehearsals are already underway. The people should be happy.

    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Not at you one has rolled. The authorities missed the moment that the people are not stupid, just misinformed very much, and that now it looks like the boiler will start to heat up.
    This war will change the country beyond recognition.
    - if by "change the country beyond recognition" it means that the construction of a balanced modern fleet will be started (which I am a supporter of), then there are no signs of this.
    There are no options for increasing GDP or raising the standard of living (or at least increasing household incomes at rates outpacing inflation) or reducing the Ginny coefficient either.
    Of the forecasts, only a decline in GDP and inflation, in most forecasts (which I saw) even for this year, both inflation and a decline in GDP are double-digit figures.
    Even the option "freedom is better than no freedom" quietly sits still and writes articles about the benefits of the death penalty.
    ... "will change the country beyond recognition" - that's for sure, but few people will like these changes. In principle, it is already clear who will be responsible for certain difficulties: liberals, the fifth column who left for Israel, students and cyclists (add as necessary).

    But again, my IMHO, the people should get what they want and the experiment with a "special way" for the purposes of science should be brought to its logical end, "so that others are not used to it and as an example to posterity."
    1. 0
      April 26 2022 22: 05
      It would be nice to also mention the activity (or inactivity) of the AU, the same AK 630 and their analogues: Volcanoes / Goalkeepers and Oerlikon Millennium, which can automatically select targets and destroy them (for example, "targets going to the ship at a certain speed are automatically destroyed") .


      During the First Iraq War (1991), the frigate Oliver Perry walked the Phalanx in line with the battleship Missouri. Missouri fired dipoles, and Phalanx Perry took this as a threat and fired on him.
      Fortunately it was a battleship. No harm done.
  36. CYM
    0
    April 26 2022 14: 33
    Quote: Stas157
    Rather take Odessa.
    IMHO And from the land, otherwise the amphibious assault seems to be fraught with ... With whom they even prepared to fight the Black Sea Fleet and whether they prepared at all a mystery. sad
  37. +2
    April 26 2022 14: 38
    I'm from the center of Bohemia, the only ship we have is a cruise ship on the Vltava. By that I mean that I was a marine fanatic and otherwise a kludge.
    I carefully read articles about the sinking of MOSCOW.
    In the Czech Republic they showed the film "Polygon", where the editor explained everything and explained.
    The second question, were the crews supposed to have combat shifts and were in full force?
    If so, as the author writes, then the Russian Navy is just for show, I’m afraid to ask about equipping missile picks. I'm your fan, but neither I nor others are stupid. Admirals and captains, you simply failed during the war. am
    1. +1
      April 27 2022 18: 26
      I want to notice, a lot of failures in everything. But Putin did not break a single stripe or epaulette! How do you like liberals!?
  38. +6
    April 26 2022 15: 05
    Nothing will change, there will be no teachings. The admirals are not interested in this. it is not profitable. And let the country change and become an analogue of the DPRK or Turkmenistan ...
    1. -5
      April 26 2022 22: 36
      Quote: tone
      And let the country change and become an analogue of the DPRK or Turkmenistan ...

      Do not even dream, the enemy's offal!
      No one can break and defeat Russia: it is under the protection of the MOTHER OF GOD!
      (We are Russians GOD WITH US! A.V. Suvorov)
      1. +2
        April 27 2022 09: 13
        It has already been defeated by its own rulers and more than once.
        What prevented the Ukrainian generals from being bought or intimidated, as they did in Iraq?
        Only the fact that the complete insignificances themselves were bought by the campaign at all posts in the Russian Federation ...
  39. +2
    April 26 2022 15: 34
    Thank you for the article. Previously, your articles evoked bitterness for the state of the Navy, but now this bitterness is tinged with blood.
    And you, dear Timokhin Alexander, are recognized as a foreign agent, so that stones are not thrown into the Kremlin swamp. You should toss your cap into the air, and not argue ...
    Thanks again. It's heartbreaking that nothing will change. It is not their children who pay with their blood for their miscalculations and foul play.
  40. +1
    April 26 2022 15: 40
    A strange series of spontaneous combustion in recent times: ships, military depots, oil depots, and other objects
  41. -2
    April 26 2022 16: 17
    one amendment to the article about the radar. Missile detection depends not only on the quality of the radar, but also on its specialization - a good example is Arlie Burke, who has a very good radar, but he does not see everything and not everywhere. The Americans were afraid of our Su-24 in the Black Sea for a reason, because it could launch a missile in such a profile that there was almost no chance of shooting it down.
  42. 0
    April 26 2022 18: 53
    Why is the emphasis placed on the defense of a single ship from a missile attack?!
    Moreover, perhaps even a massive attack, on a single ship without cover, either from the sea or from the air. In general, nowhere. And a single ship should repulse any attack?!
    No real ship can cope with such a role. Sooner or later, the missile will hit the target.
    Regarding the tragic death of the RK Moscow, it is not yet clear whether there was a rocket there or not.
    Some sources claim that it was, others doubt it.
    There is only one photograph, one shot, from one angle. The quality of the picture is not high, there is little to make out. It can be seen that the Osa air defense system is in the stowed position (below deck).
    Presumably, the "Wasp" covers of its launcher are not completely closed, the side is covered in soot in the same place.
    The S-300 Fort locator is also in position, as we are used to seeing it at parades.
    Several covers of the S-300 launchers are still open, although this is hard to see from the picture.
    Moved helipad! Sideways! What could have caused this destruction?
    On the port side there is a dirty stripe or .. a crack through the entire hull.
    There is soot around the portholes, there is no soot around the alleged crack.
    1. +1
      April 26 2022 20: 38
      Well, at least he must beat off some kind of attack! Single ship...
  43. 0
    April 27 2022 09: 01
    Why do they smoke on such a delicate and sensitive ship? Might rip
  44. 0
    April 27 2022 12: 00
    The practice of hiding the Navy in ports is vicious. We remember Yamato, Roma, Tirpitz...
  45. +1
    April 27 2022 14: 03
    Under Shoigu, individual combat training of units and units of the ground forces was practically not carried out. The main reason was the lack of a material base (headmistresses, shooting ranges, tactical fields). Moreover, the maintenance of the material part was completely entrusted to the military personnel under the contract at their own expense ... So here in combat training Show-off, PR, ... Her unsatisfactoriness was clearly manifested in, for example, tank biathlons ... Both driving and shooting evoked a grin from the military personnel serving on active duty in the same Central State Military Command ... For retired officers - indignation at the low professional training of the best of the worst ..... Using this as an example, one can judge the rest of the types and types of troops ...
  46. -2
    April 27 2022 18: 23
    In short, they reported, served, stole .....
    1. 0
      5 May 2022 09: 16
      The deceased flagship must urgently look for at least a temporary replacement, given the fact that it is mainly needed to support land operations in the Odessa region, for this purpose, a converted dry cargo ship with a displacement of about 20 thousand is best suited if its holds are completely filled with foamed sea containers, then flood it it will not be easy and he will withstand any missile attack from the APU
  47. 0
    5 May 2022 13: 27
    There is Snake Island. Long-range and short-range radars are deployed on it. The P-39 pulls out 400 km, the RL-13 at low-flying up to 200 km, Kasta for a combination and a couple of air defense systems.
    1. 0
      5 May 2022 23: 36
      The island is good, but a converted unsinkable dry cargo ship can come close to the shore and deliver, for example, troops, and it is very likely that sea mines and shelling from the shore will not stop it
  48. 0
    8 May 2022 11: 09
    I do not understand the love of the author and the audience (which has already reached the conversion of bulk carriers) to Thor. The Bayraktar TB2 has a pretty decent track record against it even in this special op. For example, here is the M1 being destroyed when trying to land on the sharp Zmeiny (together with the Project 11770 landing craft): https://postlmg.cc/PNZ3N6Xp. Let me know if you need to upload a video, after the hit it is clearly visible that the Thor radar is operating in overview mode. Here, on the same island, an unidentified modification of Thor is being destroyed: https://postimg.cc/185vShCS. What happened after the destruction of air defense on the island does not lend itself to understanding at all ...

    Here is a complete list of TB2 "victims" from all conflicts: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2021/12/a-monument-of-victory-bayraktar-tb2.html . Only photographically confirmed cases have been added to the list.
  49. -1
    25 May 2022 10: 01
    we do NOT have an economy, so there will be nothing mass and modern .... For now ..
  50. 0
    22 June 2022 15: 29
    anti-ship missiles (ASMs) can be installed anywhere. Unfortunately, in this situation, the death of the next ships (including non-military ones) is a matter of time. This is reality. In any case, coastal areas will not come under control in the coming year.
  51. 0
    24 June 2022 05: 16
    Ireland to supply anti-ship missiles.
  52. The comment was deleted.
  53. 0
    30 June 2022 13: 54
    We can safely assume that an outdated ship that has not undergone modernization, such as the same Moskva, will be able to detect and classify such a missile at a distance of about 15 kilometers from the side (its radars are optimized for long-range detection of air targets, for which the decimeter wavelength range is used - suboptimal to work in the "drive layer"). For "Marshal Ustinov", which received new radars during the modernization, this distance is much greater.

    I would suggest paying attention to such a parameter of the air defense systems available on the Moskva as the minimum target height.
    For the S-300f, depending on the type of missile, this is 15-25m. Somewhat higher than the flight altitude of modern subsonic anti-ship missiles, right?
    For the Osa air defense system, the minimum height is stated to be 5 m, but we must remember that this is an old complex, with limited capabilities for firing at targets with low RCS.
    Well, you can remember the level of training of sailors: during exercises, the targets are always large and fly high. Really, having learned about this, the thought crept in that the navy actually knew: they definitely wouldn’t have to fight.
  54. 0
    6 July 2022 15: 10
    But in normal weather it provides very well.

    Great, then you need to notify your opponent that in bad weather, attacking a ship armed with this complex is bad manners good
  55. 0
    6 July 2022 15: 26
    The problem is that this is a dangerous target - anti-aircraft fire can damage it, but not destroy it, while close explosions often change the course of target missiles, and sometimes they go towards the ship. If the RM-24 hits a ship, even without a warhead, it will cause great damage to it, and even if it breaks up in the air, it is dangerous.

    There is an option - to launch the anti-ship missiles on a parallel course towards a certain radio beacon. So that even in the event of an unsuccessful interception, it would fly 500m.
    I would like to remind you that the same US Navy periodically practices the interception of supersonic Coyote missiles, which are much more dangerous. The above method helps reduce risks.
  56. 0
    7 July 2022 14: 09
    A. Timokhin is right today. Return initial training on this topic to the Black Sea Fleet service.
    The situation with RTOs seems to be correct.
  57. 0
    18 July 2022 17: 03
    Of course, it is vital to improve ships’ own air defense, but it is equally important to place stationary tracking systems for low-flying targets on high-altitude unmanned airships within their territory (as the Americans are already trying to do). Then low-flying targets (LTC) will be detected almost from the start or at a distance of several hundred kilometers, which will allow ship crews to properly prepare for an attack.