Military Review

The new gun for the army

98
Recently, one can observe complete confusion with pistols, which should replace the PM in the army. It seems that there is nothing incomprehensible, there are three options weaponswho can live quite peacefully with each other in the military environment, but in every interview that people take from the armament of the army, one can notice almost complete inconsistency in words. So, for example, Rogozin positions the “Black Swift” pistol instead of the PM, quite often forgetting that there are also older versions of weapons that are ready to replace the Makarov pistol in the army. For example, Yarygin pistols (despite all his problems in the first versions), as well as ATP. Moreover, both the first and second versions are already in the military, in general, something resembling a well-known fable is obtained. I will try to reflect on what positive qualities and disadvantages each of the above-named pistols have, and for whom this or that sample would become a normal working tool. I must say that my thoughts and thoughts are purely my own, so that those who disagree with my position will somehow.

Let's start with the most "tasty" sample - a pistol "Black Swift" or Strike One. I’ll say right away that for some reason I don’t even like the look of this gun, but this is a matter of taste, so to speak. In general, this gun has recently been positioned as a “murderer” of Glock, so it is or not, time will tell, after all, the weapon is still new and untested. Although if the gun manages to preserve its characteristics in mass production, then here, of course, Glock will have a serious competitor. However, Glock’s competitors still have more than enough, for example, the same Walther PPQ, but Glock also wins because there are a huge number of variants of this pistol. In general, it is too early to draw conclusions about the reliability of the Black Cut and its characteristics. But it is possible to note such a moment that even though the production of the “Black Swift” will be established on the territory of Russia, the Russian company will not produce these weapons. So there are two “cons” at once: one way or another, the high price per unit of weapon, well, and a patriotic question, all the same weapon, it seems to me, should be purely domestic, still not Burundi and not Congo. But this is so to say the reasons are more or less objective, there is another one that is alarming me very much. So, almost everywhere it is said that the locking system of the barrel of the Black Swift pistol is revolutionary, but I see in it a modified Browning system, which is really unique in this case, but not revolutionary at all. So to say, such statements undermined the credibility of the weapon and spoiled the overall impression. Considering all this, we can say that the army will do well without a “swift”, no matter what its magic characteristics, it cannot claim to be a massive pistol due to the high price, because you need to buy completely 10 and not 20 weapons. Although, perhaps, this weapon would be used in special troops.

We continue with the option of a weapon that almost everyone spits - with a Yarygin pistol. Indeed, criticism of this gun is not at all small, and in most cases it is quite reasonable, if not for one “but”. The sports version of the pistol is mainly subjected to criticism, or those models that just started launching weapons to the masses. Initially, the gun was made quite crooked, and adding the fact that the weapon was put into production as soon as possible, we will end up with a device that looks like a gun, but it’s not clear how it can fire at all. But, as they say, it was a long time ago and not true. At the moment, apparently, someone well received a hat, and the quality of the weapon has increased dramatically, and the main drawbacks of the weapon have already been eliminated. In addition, the weapon turns out to be quite cheap in production, which is only a plus for it. The use of more "evil" cartridges than the standard 9x19, also only have a positive effect on the combat characteristics of the pistol. In other words, if it is possible to completely eliminate all the unpleasant moments with this weapon, and this does not make it very expensive to manufacture, then this particular gun can be considered the very option suitable for mass weapons.

Finally, an SPS pistol, better known as Gurza. In general, of all the three, I like this gun the most. First of all, it should be noted that there is nothing superfluous in it and at first glance it is clear that this is a “working tool”, and it is not unknown what. I once read such an interesting comparison: the ATP was compared to KaBar, while other modern pistol samples were compared to multifunctional “Swiss-Chinese” knives, well, I think the analogy is clear here. Plus, it should be added that the ATP is fed by several unusual cartridges, which is both its positive and negative trait, since they will naturally be more expensive than the same 9х19. From this it follows that the weapon is not suitable for mass use in the army, but for special forces it can be very suitable, first of all, because of the same ammunition.

Thus, it can be said that the “Black Swift” is in the span for the army, since for 9х19 there will be Yarygin, and for more effective SP10 SP11 and SP13 ATP. In general, the choice of new weapons for the army looks somewhat strange, especially in comparison with how new weapons came into service during Soviet times. Just look at the fact that there are no more contests in which several samples from different design bureaus are held. Yes, even the fact that the Ministry of Defense cannot simply formulate the TK for a new weapon already leads to bad thoughts. So it turns out that the 3 sample is represented on the new pistol for the army, no matter how much they are adapted for mass armament, and in principle there is nothing to choose. And this is while the pistol has been far from the main weapon for more than a century. Naturally, the system of competitions also had its drawbacks, but at least this way the development of weapons was stimulated. And let Kalashnikov was the winner, losing to Nikonov only in the last competition, for all the victories were well-founded economically reasons. But among other samples there were hundreds of those who had no analogues in the world, they had innovations that are used now in other “special” weapon models. In general, it seems to me that what is there is now forcing domestic gunsmiths to stagnate, and you must either return to the old system or come up with a new, even more effective.
Author:
Photos used:
weaponland.ru
98 comments
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  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 October 2012 08: 24
    +3
    Thank you very much for the article, I don’t understand a damn thing in personal weapons, but here it’s short and understandable even to such a mediocre person like me :))) Although it would be nice to paint the advantages and disadvantages in a bit more detail.
  2. redcod
    redcod 2 October 2012 08: 30
    +7
    The Black Swift is really not for the army. When I think about it, about the ribbed surface ... But that's why they kept silent about GSH-18. In my opinion, a worthy model for the first weapon. And according to its characteristics and omnivorousness, it will give odds to Glock.
    1. vylvyn
      vylvyn 2 October 2012 08: 48
      +3
      I agree. Just do not write about Glock, well, to the devil. We are talking about our weapons for our troops. The only thing is that the GSh-18 is under the cartridge 9 * 19 (Parabellum), and Gyurza is under 9 * 21. Two cartridges for two different pistols in war conditions will be unprofitable to produce. IMHO, it is required to determine for the troops with the main ammunition, which is suitable for both pistols and submachine guns. Of course 9 * 21 is more preferable, but more expensive than 9 * 19. In general, as always, a dilemma.
      1. dustycat
        dustycat 26 June 2013 13: 14
        0
        The fact of the matter is that there is no TK for the gun.
        9X21 is not much more expensive than 9x19 but more powerful is that pole.
        In general, the idea of ​​equipping all with one type of pistol is wrong.
        It is much more reasonable to set conditions for collateral and decide which cartridge is the main () charter)
        Mauser and revolver were produced for revolving cartridges 7,62x34 and 7,62x22 ("statutory" for the Russian army until 1917), in addition to the native Parabellum cartridge. And then the gentlemen officers themselves decided under which patron they should buy personal weapons with their own money.
        Whoever wanted it and bought cartridges for his favorite pistol receiving a surcharge to the salary for this.

        This is a more reasonable solution.
        Take the charter cartridge for the supply (as the same intermediate for AK 7,62 and 5,45), and there everyone chooses what they like and the wallet.
    2. edge
      edge 2 October 2012 14: 24
      0
      and this machine was made in the interests of the Confederation of Practical Shooting (ipcs)
    3. crazyrom
      crazyrom 4 October 2012 00: 39
      0
      Quote: redcod
      The Black Swift is really not for the army. As I think about it, about a ribbed surface ...

      why not for the army and why is the ribbed surface bad? (I really don't know, explain who please?)
  3. bistrov.
    bistrov. 2 October 2012 08: 52
    +2
    It’s amazing that they’ve been talking about re-equipping the army with melee trunks for about fifteen years, a lot of acceptable models have been created, but the matter does not go beyond discussion and conversation, but time goes on, and everything remains in service with the old PM. What is it: slander, sabotage, or an elementary lack of money?
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 2 October 2012 11: 39
      +1
      and in service everything remains the old PM.

      Still Stechkin remained
      1. Per se.
        Per se. 2 October 2012 18: 35
        0
        Quote: PSih2097
        Still Stechkin remained
        The APS are not going to upgrade something, although it has been heard before that without problems on automatic fire, the gun would become better.
        1. Zynaps
          Zynaps 3 October 2012 01: 00
          +1
          Quote: Per se.
          The APS are not going to upgrade something, although it has been heard before that without problems on automatic fire, the gun would become better.


          good morning dear comrade! and APB pistol then what is it? well, which was adopted in the 70s. By the way, the fire in short bursts from the APB quite accurately and closely at distances up to 50 m.

          but, a plaque, almost a kilo of seven hundred with a silencer from without cartridges will be made from any shooter-squelch of a natural pitching.
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 3 October 2012 06: 58
            0
            Quote: Zynaps
            and APB pistol then what is it? well, which back in the 70's was adopted
            Buenos Aires, Amigo! Your truth, the APB modified our APS for the GRU special forces, where they mainly added a frame stock, instead of an attached holster-butt, and ensured silent shooting (a removable muffler with a barrel refinement). The accuracy to everything has improved. I didn’t mean the Soviet period, but the modern, bourgeois one, and, first of all, try to reduce weight, use a more powerful cartridge with the refusal of automatic fire. In any case, thanks for your remark.
    2. core
      core 2 October 2012 12: 13
      +4
      it's just the unnecessary new gun in the army. a modern officer is afraid of fire like a personal weapon (this is what a responsibility), the same is in the police. and it makes no difference which gun does not use the old pm or which is the newest. and in the holster you can wear a cucumber. my friend bought a pm pneumatics for me and, in the service, he drove with him, he didn’t take the barrel to arms. such a majority.
      1. Hon
        Hon 2 October 2012 13: 27
        +1
        When conducting a battle in a building, a short barrel may often be needed.
        1. edge
          edge 2 October 2012 14: 30
          0
          and not only in the building, in conditions of poor visibility, when the one who first lifted the trunk in the direction remains alive .........
    3. edge
      edge 2 October 2012 14: 27
      0
      as a rule, after taking the sample into service, the stocks are first saturated ...
    4. dustycat
      dustycat 26 June 2013 13: 16
      0
      No, money for bribes is clearly an excess.
      Just bribe some against bribe others do not interrupt.
      There are not enough brains.
      The decision is simple and obvious - a charter cartridge is made to ensure - and there gentlemen, officers themselves pay extra for the difference between the price of PM and what they like for this cartridge.
  4. DYMITRY
    DYMITRY 2 October 2012 08: 57
    +18
    I agree with the author in terms of "gyurza", I also like it the most.
    But in general, I don’t understand the question at all. The gun is a weapon of the special services. An army officer may need a gun in two cases during combat. The first is to shoot a coward and an alarmist. The second to shoot himself, in order to avoid being captured. As a weapon of personal defense, the gun can not even be considered. If it has already reached the point that the officer’s main weapon (that is, his unit) was not operational, then the gun will not save in any way. With the same two basic responsibilities and PM perfectly copes.
    That is, the idea of ​​re-equipping the army with new pistols is considered more than controversial. Although for special forces the need for a new pistol is already overripe.
    1. Uruska
      Uruska 2 October 2012 09: 28
      +8
      I completely agree about the pistols in the sun. In the old days, a gun was raised to the attack. On one trip, with a gun, I felt very uncomfortable. He regretted that he had foolishly not taken AK.
      1. borisst64
        borisst64 2 October 2012 09: 59
        +5
        The PM pistol is simple and reliable. An example of the fact that in the Komsomolets submarine, after lifting, all PMs rusted, does not give grounds to consider PM to be of low quality. Replacing with another pistol will be logical if it is cheaper, simpler, reliable, lightweight while maintaining destructive power and accuracy. And rely on the appearance and another way of locking the barrel, like a childish one.
      2. edge
        edge 2 October 2012 14: 37
        0
        if skillfully, then the PM works very well at ranges up to 100 m.-by 25 m. excess of the trajectory of 12 cm, decrease of 50 cm by 4m ...........
        1. Hon
          Hon 2 October 2012 14: 45
          +1
          up to 100 m work from PM?
          1. edge
            edge 3 October 2012 13: 37
            0
            Quote: Hon
            up to 100 m work from PM?

            cartridge energy and performance characteristics of the barrel itself are calculated for this
            1. Hon
              Hon 3 October 2012 13: 42
              0
              then it’s up to 200, you’ll only get horseradish!
        2. Letun
          Letun 3 October 2012 14: 34
          0
          Quote: hert
          if skillfully, then pm works very well at ranges up to 100 m

          PM and 100 meters are words from different songs laughing
          1. wasjasibirjac
            wasjasibirjac 3 October 2012 15: 48
            0
            PM 100 m. - Only in the barn, and then 1 out of 10
        3. roninas
          roninas 8 October 2012 18: 56
          0
          Yes, come on !!! Yes, 25 meters is almost the limit
    2. edge
      edge 2 October 2012 14: 33
      +2
      weapons are now influenced by fashion and the lobby .......
  5. erased
    erased 2 October 2012 09: 15
    +8
    And here is the same song! There is no concept of the use of short-barreled weapons in the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB, there is no clear understanding of what and for whom. And which in addition.
    So the lobbyist games begin, it turns out also imported. As a result, not the best trunk, but profitable can go into the series. Oh, a very unpleasant situation. And strangely enough, there is still no universal replacement for PM. Probably also because universalism is not needed here.
  6. Angry cat
    Angry cat 2 October 2012 09: 23
    +4
    It is unclear why not adopt the GS-18? Lightweight, ergonomic, penetrates armor well, with a capacious magazine. It is used in special forces, so why not arrange its release as a service weapon for officers? Yes, it will come out more expensive than the same PY, but the defense industry is not the industry to save on. It’s better to cut back spending on culture and sport, if you can’t do without improving one to the detriment of the other.
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 2 October 2012 11: 42
      +12
      It’s better to cut back spending on culture and sport, if you can’t do without improving one to the detriment of the other.

      Better to reduce personal expenses - the purchase of mansions, football teams, Courchevel, etc.
      1. AIvanA
        AIvanA 3 October 2012 05: 29
        0
        But what do you want to encroach on the holy, it’s better to reduce a couple of regiments.
    2. saruman
      saruman 2 October 2012 15: 19
      +1
      GSh-18 has a very low resource.
    3. Sirozha
      Sirozha 2 October 2012 16: 34
      +1
      Angry cat,
      Do not you think that modern youth and so culture and sports performance does not shine ??? Where else to cut back?
      The fact is that you need to decide what they want to start with, then you have to cut back something, accept and order something!
    4. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 2 October 2012 19: 53
      0
      Quote: Angry Cat
      It is unclear why not adopt the GS-18?

      Incidentally, he was adopted for service with the PJ.
  7. Leisure
    Leisure 2 October 2012 10: 41
    +3
    Once upon a time, in one educational institution, our military instructor said that a pistol in a war is needed in order to shoot oneself, and for this the "makarov" will do. But this does not mean that there is no need to develop new types of weapons.
  8. AlexMH
    AlexMH 2 October 2012 11: 00
    +8
    The thesis "a pistol is not needed in war" needs to be reformulated "A pistol is not needed as an officer's main weapon." In general, the police, special forces need a new pistol, and just a pistol is a traditional symbol of the commander's power, and it should be good, massive, cheap (but not too much). Again, you have to shoot yourself - and the gun misfires - a shame. As for the special forces, they just need to develop or purchase weapons for their individual requirements for each area of ​​application. Our industry will not collapse from the purchase of several thousand pistols even abroad. Talking about pistols in the media in the absence of a civilian arms market is like phone sex. But the system of competitions, which in Soviet times, oddly enough, provided much tougher competition than in our market, needs to be restored, but it is difficult to conduct a competition when the Ministry of Defense cannot even write technical specifications for weapons competently.
    1. edge
      edge 2 October 2012 14: 41
      +2
      the officer’s pistol goes as an auxiliary weapon, each officer, up to the battalion commander, is armed with ax-74.
  9. plump
    plump 2 October 2012 11: 07
    +2
    "Twenty-five again!" Who is the new pistol for? For mass use or for special forces? And these are "two baaalshie differences ..." If for specialists, then let it be expensive, powerful and with bells and whistles, if a mass version, then manufacturability, convenience and .. that's it.
  10. sergant89
    sergant89 2 October 2012 11: 19
    +2
    Quote: AlexMH
    Discussing pistols in the media in the absence of a civilian arms market is like phone sex.
    laughing good
  11. byntowa
    byntowa 2 October 2012 11: 26
    +1
    Yeah ... That’s true, it’s true, now the state has no interest in creating new weapons, and this is very sad .... But in general, I give my preference to these SPS from these pistols
  12. Valboro
    Valboro 2 October 2012 12: 50
    +3
    The most important thing in this (and many other articles) is not the ability of the Ministry of Defense to prepare TTT for new equipment. In Soviet times, this was done by specific institutes (for example, for the RV it is 4 Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense, for automotive equipment 21). Now these institutions do not exist. There is no organization at all that would competently conduct research, write the TTZ for the draft design, prepare and agree with the TTT industry. then I would test and clarify the TTT. And then, working with military acceptance and parts, I would conduct military tests. And so on. Great and irreplaceable work. No "big-headed" ministers and their deputies will solve it. Therefore, until the SYSTEM for preparing the requirements of the Ministry of Defense is restored, there will be no good and NECESSARY weapons in the army
    1. bunta
      bunta 3 October 2012 17: 49
      +1
      Yes, yes and yes again!
  13. crambol
    crambol 2 October 2012 13: 23
    +3
    --But among other samples there were hundreds of those that had no analogues in the world, they included innovations that are now used in other "special" weapons. -


    The situation, it seems to me, is repeating itself. It lies in the fact that large firms cut off the "oxygen" to all "upstarts", no matter how ingenious they are. I worked in a large research institute and witnessed such unscrupulous actions. We called it POLITICAL METAL STUDIES. It seems that there was a similar story with Baryshev's submachine guns and machine gun, when the GRAU refused to bring his weapons for shooting together with the venerable ones. And the Minister of Defense, it seems Slovakia, having fired from his machine gun, the only thing he could say: -It's some kind of laser!
    1. bunta
      bunta 3 October 2012 17: 51
      +1
      In the journal Kalashnikov (I don’t remember the number) specific numbers, reasons, documents explaining why Baryshev’s machine gun lost in reliability were given. Look very interesting.
      1. scrabler
        3 October 2012 19: 08
        0
        You see, what's the matter, reliability is a profitable business, so to speak, you can bring any design to perfection, the only question is how promising the result of this work will be, in other words, is the skin worth the candle. A striking example of this can be the system for locking the barrel bore in pistols behind the window for ejecting spent cartridges with automatic equipment with a short barrel stroke. These pistols were created back in the early twentieth century and look at what they have grown as a result now. In this case, the characteristics only improve. Initially, AK was also not a super weapon, nevertheless, the whole people made one of the symbols of the 20th century out of it. The question is about the interest in the final ideal result of all parties involved. In general, I believe that if you take any weapon that participated in competitions for the same new machine gun for the CA, then even the most unreliable and short-lived option could be brought to the ideal, but how much it will result and whether further development will be possible is a big question. So do not draw conclusions based on the performance characteristics of "raw" weapons, the final version could be much better.
  14. Trevis
    Trevis 2 October 2012 13: 49
    +3
    Why do I need a new barrel, if there is a GSH-18?
    1. edge
      edge 2 October 2012 14: 44
      +3
      the machine is amazing, after pm ............. song (anthem)
    2. Per se.
      Per se. 3 October 2012 15: 51
      +3
      Quote: Trevis
      Why do I need a new barrel, if there is a GSH-18?
      The mere fact that this is the brainchild of Vasily Petrovich Gryazev says a lot. A talented gunsmith could not create a mediocre weapon. GSH-18 beautiful and powerful gun.
  15. Fox
    Fox 2 October 2012 13: 54
    +4
    in the service at the Ministry of Internal Affairs, I had enough PMa. when leaving, they took wedges, 9a91, PSM ... PM weighs almost a kilogram, and Serdyukov 1,5 (with a cab and a magazine) ... now drag this scrap metal a couple of weeks away from the weapon and everything will become It’s clear that they can’t get out of the PM, so you need to straighten your hands ...
  16. rkka
    rkka 2 October 2012 14: 25
    +3
    Quote: chubby
    for specialists, then let it be expensive, powerful and with bells and whistles, if the mass version, then manufacturability, convenience and .. all

    For the police, you need a simple and cheap (70% plastic?) Revolver with a wide selection of rounds: traumatic, armor-piercing, signal, gas, light-noise! like a wasp
    1. black_eagle
      black_eagle 2 October 2012 15: 03
      -2
      The barrel axis of the revolver is much higher than that of the pistol due to the presence of a drum; when firing, this causes more torque than the pistol, i.e., the accuracy of shooting is significantly reduced
      1. rkka
        rkka 2 October 2012 15: 20
        +1
        But what if the revolver shoots from the lower chamber?
        1. black_eagle
          black_eagle 2 October 2012 16: 49
          0
          Again, in this case, the line of sight will be significantly higher than the bore, plus have you seen a lot of such revolvers? - units, plus for the revolver it’s much more difficult to install the PBBS, the revolver has more protruding parts, it takes longer to reload, while in the gun it threw the store out and put a new one into battle
          1. rkka
            rkka 2 October 2012 17: 19
            +2
            Quote: black_eagle
            reload it longer, while in the pistol threw the store, put a new one and into battle

            I wrote that a revolver for the police wink simple, CHEAP and reliable, preferably under a powerful traumatic cartridge of 100-200 J, with a good stopping effect. THAT is what our policemen need against bullish Caucasians, drunken aggressors, fleeing thieves. Well, the specialists "wets the terrorists in the toilet" naturally their own trunk, I like the gsh-18, or they need their own analogs of the FN P90 \ FN Five-seven complex good
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 2 October 2012 19: 31
              +2
              Quote: rkka
              I wrote that a revolver for the police ...

              Type this:
              1. scrabler
                2 October 2012 20: 04
                +2
                No, Mateba will be very cool for the police))) I understand that the Russian police are the most "golden" police in the world, but not so much))) Let them replace AKS74U with a PP for a start.
              2. wasjasibirjac
                wasjasibirjac 3 October 2012 15: 53
                0
                and why the police need an automatic revolver, it was invented by the Italians especially for fans of "cool guns"
              3. Che burashka
                Che burashka 3 October 2012 22: 12
                0
                They shoot themselves, why good, themselves. One must be able to use such weapons.
  17. black_eagle
    black_eagle 2 October 2012 15: 01
    0
    A gun on the battlefield is a weapon to shoot or shoot someone, that's all!
    1. Hon
      Hon 2 October 2012 15: 08
      0
      I already wrote above that the short-barrel in buildings can be useful.
      1. black_eagle
        black_eagle 2 October 2012 16: 45
        0
        Yeah, especially when he’s only an officer, like guys get out, I’m firing right now!)))))
        1. Hon
          Hon 2 October 2012 17: 13
          +1
          And Amer, he is not only an officer ...
          1. black_eagle
            black_eagle 2 October 2012 17: 25
            0
            Excuse me, do you live in America?
            1. Hon
              Hon 2 October 2012 17: 28
              0
              But after all, no one forbids to take over the experience, we only recently decided to adopt sniper weapons, before that, only the SVD managed.
              1. edge
                edge 3 October 2012 06: 03
                0
                any weapon carries out a range of tactical tasks (like a machine gun, an SVD is a means of fire support and solves tasks in a complex of fire weapons of a platoon). Other barrels are selected for the work of high-class shooters
                1. Hon
                  Hon 3 October 2012 08: 25
                  0
                  I do not claim that the SVD is not needed but its capabilities are not enough to carry out sniper tasks, in fact, we have had a serious niche in armament from the removal of the mosquito weapons.
            2. edge
              edge 3 October 2012 05: 57
              0
              no, he has striped star-shaped underpants
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 2 October 2012 19: 38
      +1
      Quote: black_eagle
      A gun on the battlefield is a weapon to shoot or shoot someone, that's all!

      On Chechen fighters there were, if my memory serves me, up to 5 types of weapons. Something like:
      automatic machine, gun, single grenade launcher, grenades, etc.
      In my opinion, the infantryman should be armed like that. The gun is not so heavy that it would be a burden, but in a critical situation it can help out. If there is ammunition, a much more formidable weapon than a sapper blade.
      1. DIMS
        DIMS 2 October 2012 19: 40
        0
        Right And on the Chechen fighters were B-8 binoculars cut in half. Just not enough for everyone, shared ...
    3. edge
      edge 3 October 2012 05: 54
      +2
      you first visit the battlefield ............., and then after the counter-strike all the generalsimuses.
  18. saruman
    saruman 2 October 2012 15: 34
    +2
    The article is similar to an essay. No specifics and it is not clear what.
    On the issue of short-range weapons, one must use the experience of the USA. The police departments there, choose their own pistols and revolvers. Federal authorities do not solve this issue. In our Ministry of Internal Affairs, you can also go this route.
    The US Army has a round-shaped pistol, and pistols for special forces, which themselves choose weapons based on the competition (for example, SEAL). The US Army can choose any model, including a foreign one. Mandatory requirement - weapons must be produced in the United States with 100% localization of production. Therefore, the US Army is armed with the Italian Beretta M92 pistol, the German Heckler and Koch USP, the Belgian machine guns MAG and Minimi, and a bunch of other samples.
    So, it’s quite possible to equip our army with at least Styzhi, at least Glock, if the army chooses them and 100% of production will be in Russia.
    1. scrabler
      2 October 2012 15: 43
      +1
      Ex would be specific would write specifically sad And so Rogozin keeps repeating about his "swift", at the same time a PY is being purchased, and the Union of Right Forces has been in service for a long time. So tell me what specifics to look for, when there can be a bunch of options for the development of events. Maybe the SPS will be removed, all the PYa will be replaced, maybe they will remember about the General Staff, maybe the Swift will replace everything, or maybe everything will happen as I wrote that it is the fastest. Everyone pulls the blanket in their direction and it is not yet known who is pulling, the main thing is that the blanket does not break from such loads.
      1. Zynaps
        Zynaps 3 October 2012 01: 08
        0
        ATP is a rather expensive thing, and it was not created for the army, but to make holes for enemy carcasses behind body armor and car doors. Considering that users of it attach a fuse on the handle with electrical tape, this means that it should also be modified with a file.
        1. Hon
          Hon 3 October 2012 08: 29
          0
          A gun capable of breaking through an armor is necessary, first of all, for the military, as for the automatic fuse, the electrical tape is wound not only with us but also with ultrasound, the same problem, for me the fuse on the handle is superfluous.
  19. crambol
    crambol 2 October 2012 15: 37
    0
    Quote: rkka
    But what if the revolver shoots from the lower chamber?



    Great question! Plus for him! Such a machine has already been published, it seems, in the magazine "Arms". The idea was great, but the snag turned out to be creepy due to structural difficulties. Moving the barrel down is not so easy!
    1. scrabler
      2 October 2012 15: 45
      +3
      Well, why is it not easy?) In the near future I will review the silent domestic revolver with a similar design, as well as something for especially perverted minds - a revolver with automatic equipment winked Soon everything will be)
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 2 October 2012 19: 43
      +6
      Quote: crambol
      Moving the barrel down is not so easy!

      revolver "Rhino", Russia:
      1. scrabler
        2 October 2012 20: 05
        +4
        No, well, it's not fair))) All my plans were issued, on top of Mateba, here is the Rhinoceros))) No intrigue smile
      2. crambol
        crambol 2 October 2012 20: 06
        0
        Thank! And then I already rummaged through a bunch of magazines, but so far I have not found anything.
  20. Strashila
    Strashila 2 October 2012 21: 02
    +1
    There is another transfusion from empty to empty. Replacing PM with nothing ... they don’t know what. There is PMM ... what they don’t like ... there are no intelligible answers. Why did they rest at 9 mm ... like a mod or something .There is a cartridge for TTs at 7,62 mm ... penetration is what is needed. A gun for this cartridge will be lighter and a magazine capacity for 20 pairs in a two-row design can be done ... what else is needed. It is simply required that the bureaucrats from the Ministry of Defense determine and state all on paper their fantasies, and so one chatter.
    1. Owl
      Owl 2 October 2012 23: 00
      +2
      The 7,62x25 mm cartridge has a low stopping effect, world practice shows that the most universal cartridge is 9x19 mm, but the police and citizens of enemy states have enough expansive cartridges in service that work well for unprotected "meat". In Russia, everything ends with a show at exhibitions, it does not reach the divisions (the FSB does not count). The quality of cartridges has recently deteriorated, in the Ministry of Internal Affairs in service now (for PM and APS pistols) only PPO cartridges (cartridge of law enforcement agencies), the first batches of which on the APS gave sticking in 25-35% of cases.
      1. Hon
        Hon 3 October 2012 08: 32
        0
        [quote = Eagle owl] in the Ministry of Internal Affairs now in service (for PM and APS pistols) only PPO cartridges (a cartridge of law enforcement agencies), the first batches of which at the APS gave caulking in 25-35% of cases. [/ quo
        They love the police))))
  21. Captain45
    Captain45 2 October 2012 22: 35
    +4
    The article is not bad, but the author, it seems to me, mixed everything together: the army, special forces, the police. I will say, based on my 20-year experience of service in the Ministry of Internal Affairs (PM being constantly worn since 89 as allowed). "The pistol is a personal defense weapon. and attack, designed for firing at a distance of up to 50 m. " In my opinion, this is how the pistol is characterized in the Manual on the shooting case of the SA For the police, sorry to the police, it is enough PM or PMM (12 rounds in the store), which I received in the 90s. -2, maximum 3 rounds. So the capacity of the PM magazine is quite enough, the weight is also good, if you buy a pumpkin on occasion, when you hit the handle there is no danger of losing the magazine, the stopping power of the bullet is quite enough, and the lethal one too. I know a case when with 5 m. PM bullet ricocheted through the window glass and killed a man. Ballistics experts went ooh and ooh, according to all the laws this could not be, but it happened. So the PM or PMM is quite a suitable pistol for the police, you just need to be able to shoot, otherwise they will give 80 cartridges every quarter and 3 before the next check. And the quality of ammunition should be kept at the proper level. Whoever shot knows the difference between PM cartridges of release before 5 g and after 92 g. For interest, I fired cartridges of 92 g. Issue and 90 g., The difference in accuracy is noticeable. Either the weight of gunpowder cannot be sustained, or the bullets are not calibrated. I will not speak for the army and specialists. It is interesting to hear the opinion of the officers - I will only say that on business trips, the PM was very convenient when inspecting attics and basements, and in premises too. TT and burned heartily.
    1. Che burashka
      Che burashka 3 October 2012 11: 59
      +1
      Captain45,
      Greetings! I completely agree with your opinion.
      People, you don't understand one simple thing - there is no culture of owning personal weapons in Russia. You will look at PPS-nicknames proudly parading through the streets of our cities. These are 90% of yesterday's vocational schools and collective farmers, who did not hold anything but a glass and a cigarette in their hands. And to give such "defenders" powerful and rapid-fire modern weapons is tantamount to suicide. This will only lead to a massive increase in accidental victims, of which there are already many. Ricochets, non-aimed shooting, fright shooting, etc. Are you ready to risk your lives and health, as well as your family and friends to try out new weapons in action? I personally don't. Yes, not everyone in the police / militia is like that, there are also normal, professional employees. But such, unfortunately, are a minority.
      I believe that the police should have two main types of pistols:
      1. Mass - type PMM. For privates / sergeants. Shooting is only solitary. 9mm caliber, conventional cartridge + traumatic cartridge. Store 10-14 rounds. Ability to cock with one hand. At least two fuses - manual and automatic. Sighting range up to 50-60m. Established BC - 2 combat stores + 2 traumatic stores.
      2. A separate model such as "Strizh" or "PYa" or "GSh-18" is not important. Issued only to operational officers-officers, after completing additional training and passing the relevant exams. Caliber 9mm regular cartridge + 9mm expansive + 9mm reinforced armor-piercing. Well, traumatic, respectively. Shooting single + cutoff of a queue of 2 rounds. Store 14-20 rounds. Platoon with one hand. Possibility of installing additional devices - a flashlight, LCC. Sighting range up to 150m. Regular ammo - 2 magazines of ordinary cartridges + 2 magazines of expansive. BC can be changed based on current tasks.
      1. Che burashka
        Che burashka 3 October 2012 12: 23
        0
        Special Forces is a separate issue. They are too few to try to unify them. The specifics of the work is such that it requires a wide variety of weapons and equipment. I think the Russian budget will easily pull out several thousand special sets of weapons and equipment regardless of the manufacturer. If necessary, then imported, if it is really better. They do not save on this. In general, any special works only with individual weapons, otherwise it is not special, but just a well-trained shooter.
        1. Che burashka
          Che burashka 3 October 2012 12: 59
          0
          Army - 9mm caliber pistol with the ability to use any police ammunition, as well as reinforced army. Sighting range of 70-150m. The ability to install additional devices - a flashlight, a laser, etc. Store 14-20 rounds. Shooting single + turn on 2 or 3 rounds. At least 2 fuses - manual and automatic. Ability to cock with one hand. Easy assembly / disassembly and field repair. Regular BC - 4 stores with any type of cartridges, depending on the situation. Actually, the same weapon turned out to be for operative officers.
          Such a machine is very useful when working in populated areas and confined spaces, especially with reinforced ammunition. Unfortunately, random victims will have to be neglected. This is war. And the rules of war are very cruel. More precisely, they are not. It all depends on the case and on the specific shooter. How professional and intelligent he is.
          1. Che burashka
            Che burashka 3 October 2012 13: 17
            0
            And the last one. As Captain45 already wrote, a lot depends on the quality of the ammunition. With a good cartridge and PM will not yield to the same Beretta. Well, or almost not yield. Do not forget that any weapon without ammunition is nothing more than a bunch of iron for throwing at the enemy. And a good cartridge can greatly change the performance characteristics of any weapon. Unfortunately, we have problems with quality.
            1. wasjasibirjac
              wasjasibirjac 3 October 2012 16: 00
              +1
              Do you often hear that PPS nicknames fired at nito from their AKSU? And AKSU in the city is only worse than a monkey with a grenade. it’s not necessary to say that we don’t have a weapon culture and scream that our police cannot be armed with anything more serious than a water gun
              1. scrabler
                3 October 2012 19: 10
                +1
                It's rather the other way around, the police are afraid to use weapons, even when necessary laughing Although, probably, laughter is inappropriate here.
                1. Che burashka
                  Che burashka 3 October 2012 19: 38
                  0
                  So, to be not afraid, we need appropriate laws and weapons. In most cases, police uniforms and injuries will suffice in excess. In order to disperse the punks and squeeze the thief, it’s not necessary to shoot the soldiers. After all, no one knows what the PPS nickname has in the barrel, combat or traumatism. All the same, ordinary employees are detained only by accident and extremely rarely. For this there is an opera and special forces.
              2. Che burashka
                Che burashka 3 October 2012 19: 29
                0
                Do we have it ???? This is news to me.
                1. Che burashka
                  Che burashka 3 October 2012 19: 55
                  +1
                  Quote: wasjasibirjac
                  it’s not necessary to say that we don’t have a weapon culture and scream that our police cannot be armed with anything more serious than a water gun

                  And what's the point of equipping ordinary employees with weapons of obviously high power? The task of the police is to ensure compliance with the law and to suppress possible crimes, and not to kill people. This is just the task of the army and specialists.
                  If we proceed from your logic, then it is easier to immediately arm the police with "Pechenegs" and RPGs and do not care. Cheap, effective and cheerful.
      2. pernaty
        pernaty 3 October 2012 20: 49
        +1
        Unlike the author of the article, respected Che Burashra, described in detail the tendency to use short-barreled weapons for the tasks of their use. Koment is closer to the topic. +
  22. Captain45
    Captain45 3 October 2012 01: 10
    +3
    Yes, I almost forgot the main thing - if the PM put the shutter on a delay, you get an excellent opener for beer bottles, which is also important in moments of mental rest. And try to do it with "Glock", "Swift" and other newfangled things. I read the previous article about " Swift "so there that only lights, and LCCs, and collimators are not hung on him. Asking for the hell? How will his patrolman in a cabura wear and get with all these bells and whistles, and the device and mechanisms? If God forbid, into a puddle on the street falls, then take it to the workshop? Because you can't figure it out in 3 seconds and you can't rub it on your trouser leg. So self-indulgence. The gun should be simple in design and reliable in use. This is my purely practical point of view.
    1. PiP
      PiP 3 October 2012 14: 07
      0
      They would have come up with another way of fixing the magazine in the PM and another pistol is not really needed. Well, he can still have a larger range of cartridges. First of all, a pistol is needed for close combat (premises, trenches) and an aiming range of 100 meters is not necessary for him, but some kind of "humane and not humane" cartridges are needed. And the specialists really need new models of pistols.
    2. Hon
      Hon 3 October 2012 14: 28
      0
      Quote: Captain45
      PM put the shutter on hold, it’s a great beer bottle opener


      Already not relevant since beer bottle caps are curled.

      Quote: Captain45
      If God forbid it falls into a puddle on the street, then what should you bring to the workshop?


      Glock is very reliable and not whimsical, when falling into a puddle, you can just shake off the water and shoot further.
      1. Captain45
        Captain45 3 October 2012 21: 08
        0
        Quote: Hon
        Already not relevant since beer bottle caps are curled.

        Well then, the service still did not reach such heights, they opened Makarov.
        Quote: Hon
        Glock is very reliable and not whimsical, when falling into a puddle, you can just shake off the water and shoot further.

        I don’t know for Glock, I didn’t hold it in my hands, I meant an article from the site about “Swift”, which described its device and the operation of the automatics. It’s too complicated there.
        1. scrabler
          3 October 2012 21: 15
          +2
          Yes, nothing complicated, you can say everything is simple, just another version of the Browning scheme. Do not be afraid that they do not speak our language, everything is clear without words smile
          1. Captain45
            Captain45 3 October 2012 22: 54
            +3
            Kirill, thanks for the video. When you see it alive, it’s clearer. Speaking about the intricacy of the design, I meant that there are a lot of small moving parts in “Strizh”, and this is not ice in the weapon of constant wear (the Ministry of Internal Affairs), a high probability of failure due to pollution or the failure of a pin or the like, which, when constantly carrying a weapon while serving on the street or working, the opera is fraught with consequences. It seems to me the fewer parts and the simpler the design, the more reliable it is, but this is my personal point of view. examples are full of the same PM, AKM.
            1. scrabler
              3 October 2012 23: 03
              +1
              I completely agree. Although it all depends on the design of the weapon. An example is the same Beretta 92 and its modifications. A hefty window for ejection of spent cartridges, which makes the gun virtually completely open for contamination, and even the locking wedge interacts with the casing with a slide gate, however, the bourgeois technique works smile AK is a separate song, an eternal hit, so to speak, and because of the simplicity of the PM, simplicity lies in the operation of a free-swing weapon, and such a design is possible only with relatively weak ammunition, unfortunately, in pistols for 9х19. Although it is possible to realize, but it will really be a monster that will not cause pleasant sensations either in mass or in size.
              1. Captain45
                Captain45 4 October 2012 00: 28
                0
                Well, I won’t say for army pistols, there is a suitable cartridge for the 9x19, and for constant-carrying police weapons the 9x18 is suitable, especially for the PMM the 9x18 cartridge was as modern as I can remember and it was enough power to solve practical problems. But again, this is my point of view from personal practice.
          2. Che burashka
            Che burashka 3 October 2012 23: 05
            0
            Thanks, dear scrabler. Indeed, enough videos on the internet about Strizh / Strice One. The question is that this is not a purely Russian development. The weapon belongs to a private company Arsenal Firearms. And what it is, is a moot point. Their commercials are gorgeous, judging by them, it’s just a weapon of the future. But there has not yet been a field test, how will it work in dirt, dust, heat, frost? How reliable is it? What will be the cost of manufacturing? How easy is assembly / disassembly?
            Too many questions and almost no answers. We will not get ahead of ourselves, wait for the normal tests, and then we will draw conclusions. What is advertising, we all know well.
            About Strizh - http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/strike_one_pistol-r.html
            1. scrabler
              3 October 2012 23: 11
              +1
              You did not understand correctly, apparently me, I do not feel enthusiasm about the Swift, just primarily because it is not domestic. Moreover, because of the fact that they are "singing" about the revolutionary system of locking the barrel, which is actually a modification of Browning's scheme. Actually, here he wrote about him http://topwar.ru/19400-pistolet-chernyy-strizh-ili- strike-one.html
  23. Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 3 October 2012 01: 18
    +1
    It seems to me that it would be ideal for the police - Walter P-4 of the 1976 standard 9 mm cartridge excellent ergonomics compactness due to a slightly shortened barrel compared to 38
  24. up
    up 3 October 2012 12: 14
    -1
    GSh-18 has a really very low resource.
    1. pernaty
      pernaty 3 October 2012 20: 56
      +1
      Resource is the quality of the material. This requires cooperation with physicists and chemists at the state level.
      1. Che burashka
        Che burashka 3 October 2012 22: 45
        0
        Quote: pernaty
        Resource is the quality of the material.

        Yes, and also build quality. AK of the Russian and USSR assemblies can withstand up to 10-12 shops of continuous firing, until the barrel overheats. Chinese copies (early) maximum 3. But this does not mean that Kalash has a poor resource. Material and assembly.
        1. Captain45
          Captain45 4 October 2012 00: 34
          +1
          Quote: Che Burashka
          Yes, and also build quality. AK of the Russian and USSR assemblies can withstand up to 10-12 stores of continuous firing,

          I can add to this topic who had the PM in circulation, he possibly noticed that on the PM around 1975 of the release the pillars were No. 1 and 2, and then went 3,4,5 i.e. until the 75 year, the pistols shot under the central battle, and then the corrections went, or rather, when shooting, it was necessary to amend the aiming point. I apologize for saying so much for the PM, but I’m used to it for my 20 years.
  25. Raiven
    Raiven 3 October 2012 19: 10
    0
    MP-443 must be implemented quickly wassat Who will say the thread about him? I heard but don’t know the information, in production, a sample or what?
    1. scrabler
      3 October 2012 19: 35
      +1
      In general, this is Yarygin's pistol, aka "Rook", aka PYa.
      1. Raiven
        Raiven 3 October 2012 19: 47
        +2
        Thank you for the clarification
        1. scrabler
          3 October 2012 20: 13
          +1
          Yes, no way) with the Chinese types do not disassemble what where from where so far everything is absent in a row, what was adopted for what smile
      2. Che burashka
        Che burashka 3 October 2012 20: 48
        +1
        Quote: scrabler

        In general, this is Yarygin's pistol, aka "Rook", aka PYa.

        Точно! См.здесь http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CF%E8%F1%F2%EE%EB%E5%F2_%DF%F0%FB%E3%E8%ED%E0
  26. Captain45
    Captain45 3 October 2012 21: 04
    +4
    Quote: Che Burashka
    So that would not be afraid, we need the appropriate laws

    I agree, not until yesterday on TV, but everyone probably saw the story about the wedding with shooting in Moscow, watched them stop and the subsequent showdowns and almost cried, in my time this whole wedding would have been covered in mud in the mud, and by chance every passing one by chance, 2-3 would have accidentally stumbled over the ribs of detainees so that the devils knew that there was a law and how to behave. And now they have lit shushu-musyu, they kiss in the ass, human rights, human rights. Here are just people among this shushary not visible, demons alone, such only by the horns or horns, so that they know their stall.
  27. Klibanophoros
    Klibanophoros 3 October 2012 23: 57
    +1
    And where about GSH-18?
  28. Lieutenant colonel
    Lieutenant colonel 4 October 2012 03: 01
    +1
    I read, read and do not understand - why did you forget about our APS? What was bad? Well, except for the cabaret (which by the way I never wore, but used a frame butt, or with my hand). But I consider a range of 100 meters sufficient for close combat, no longer needed for personal defense weapons. Further there is an automatic machine.
    1. scrabler
      4 October 2012 04: 33
      +3
      You ask questions to the wrong people, you need to go upstairs with this (As for me, provided that the pistol is not an ordinary weapon, then the PM in the army would be enough, if we had a pistol as a really massive additional weapon for all then it would be possible to raise the issue of efficiency, etc. So, I don’t want to say that the commanders need to be equipped with weapons recognized as ineffective, it’s just that in their hands it will be used as the main weapon with a very, very small probability.
      And for special forces, the right people write, it is necessary that they choose for themselves a tool that fits specific tasks, unfortunately, there are no universal weapons, including among pistols.
  29. Axel
    Axel 5 October 2012 00: 27
    0
    Buy Glock and your head will not hurt so cheaper and less kickbacks
  30. MrBoris555
    MrBoris555 5 October 2012 17: 42
    0
    I am surprised by our national peculiarity: either or .... Why can’t you adopt THREE pistol options? The Union of Right Forces will take specialists for whom it’s important to even pierce bulletproof vest with a pistol .. Sweeping like a UH can use BB cartridges and nothing. Price? Until mass production is deployed, a set of cost-cutting measures can be taken, the project itself is more flexible changes than PYA. Not a domestic company? it is domestic at 50% minimum. Recall the famous penny or figure-XNUMX, they were also not purely patriots, but they turned out to be very successful ...
  31. artem9570
    artem9570 20 October 2012 22: 26
    0
    it seems to me that the black swift looks like a glock sensitive (in appearance)
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 26 June 2013 13: 24
      0
      Made strongly under the influence of Glock, but not Glock.
      Delays and failures are normal.
      In many shooting clubs, all four are and can be compared.
      Comparisons are clearly not in favor of Striz, primarily in terms of reliability.
      I like it like that: Glock, Yarygin of the last modification of 2003 (in that club where three Yarygin of different years went), ATP.
      Swift - a very gentle, cinematic. For kids with show-offs. Problems with a breaking or wedging striker are permanent.
  32. washi
    washi 7 December 2012 20: 49
    +1
    To do as it was in the tsarist army. The officer could, as a personal weapon, purchase any model he liked
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 26 June 2013 13: 18
      0
      That is, under any authorized cartridge, or he supplies himself with ammunition under his responsibility.