On the protection of automotive and light armored vehicles in the special operation "Z"

... the country was not ready for
to fully meet
Invasion of Nazi Germany...
The enemy was stopped
and then crush, but at a colossal price...
Those who claim world domination ... declare us, Russia,
your enemy. They really have big
financial, scientific, technological and military capabilities ...
…we will strive for the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine.
…our actions are self-defense against the threats posed to us
and from an even greater disaster than the one that is happening today
President of the Russian Federation V. V. Putin, February 24.02.2022, XNUMX

The problem of security of automotive and light armored vehicles

A couple of weeks ago, a photograph of a Tiger car with a handicraft, but very optimally executed additional protection, was published on the “military informant” telegram channel.

There were no details, but given the fact that the "Tigers" are also used by "specially special polite people", it is highly likely that this competent revision was carried out for.

At the same time, an extremely tough and acute question arises - where are the full-time, developed by specialists, tested, repeatedly shown at various exhibitions, sets of additional protection for equipment ?!

First of all, this applies not even to automotive vehicles (for all the acuteness and relevance of this issue), but to light armored vehicles (infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, MBDs and vehicles based on them), which directly on the “front end” participate in combat with an enemy that has effective artillery, massive modern anti-tank weapons and a significant number of automatic guns, heavy large-caliber sniper rifles.

Speaking about our light armored vehicles, first of all, it must be emphasized that the armor protection of the BMP-2, similar to that of the BMP-1, is slightly better tank BT-7 of the second half of the 30s. last century.

A close analogue of the BPM-3 in terms of armor protection is the “almost mobilization tank of 41.” T-60. In mass armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles - armor protection does not even reach the level of the T-26 tank of the 30s.
For this reason, in Afghanistan, we widely used BMP-2D with enhanced armor protection (additional armor due to the abandonment of buoyancy).

At the same time, work was launched to strengthen the protection of vehicles and tanks. Alas, this experience was almost forgotten immediately after Afghanistan. As a result, in the beginning of the Chechen war, personnel often carried out re-armoring of combat vehicles by “local means”.

From the "centralized measures" one can note the mass equipping of the T-62 tanks widely used in the second Chechen company with anti-cumulative gratings from the Research Institute of Steel (first used in Afghanistan).

"2017 and before"

From an interview with D. Kupryunin, General Director of JSC "Scientific Research Institute of Steel", "Arms Export" magazine No. 5, 2017 ( link):

... gratings appeared during the Great Patriotic War as an impromptu defense against Faustpatron-type hand grenade launchers. The gratings were given a second life by the Research Institute of Steel during the war in Afghanistan. Then the lattices were optimized to protect lightly armored vehicles. They were also used in the Chechen conflict. Our chief designer equipped about 50 tanks on the front line with gratings. The grille and the armor shield behind it give a 50% chance of protection against rocket-propelled grenades. In my opinion, this is a very good indicator.

- Does it make sense to install dynamic protection (DZ) on lightly armored vehicles?
- That's a very difficult question. After all, the thickness of the armor of lightly armored vehicles is such that when the remote sensing is triggered, the opposite effect can occur and cracks appear in the armor.
But the Research Institute of Steel had experience, and when BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles were delivered to the UAE, for the first time, DZ was used in series, which protected the combat vehicle.
For the Emirati side, the Research Institute of Steel specially carried out R & D and developed a DZ for it. It was a major contract, NII Stali then equipped 150 vehicles with dynamic protection ...
... DZ was also installed on the BMP-2 and on the armored personnel carrier. But in experimental execution, since the Ministry of Defense does not yet want to accept these DZ sets for service. Although abroad, DZ is on almost all light vehicles. This is a kind of constant polemic with the military.
For example, we recently held a very fruitful meeting with the leadership of the Airborne Forces ... And following the results of the meeting, we were given the task of making additional protection for the Airborne Forces vehicles, and with the possibility of optional installation. And on this issue, a technical task is being prepared.
In principle, we believe that any type of armored vehicles should have the option of installing additional protection.

If we briefly turn to historical experience, then the first measures to enhance the protection of light armored vehicles were screens - back in the late 30s. last century.

The outbreak of World War II led to a variety of experiments (such as Zimmerit coating for the Germans and concrete for us). American "Shermans" in Europe were massively hung with sandbags (despite the fierce resistance of some American generals).

At the same time, at the end of the war, the first anti-cumulative mesh wire gratings appeared on our tanks, and by no means always handicraft ones, in 1945 they were manufactured in a semi-industrial form by tank repair shops and put on our tanks.
Of the latest experiments, one can note the “anti-Javelin visors”, which were recently widely installed on our tanks (and even sung by some popular print media). The fact that they are practically not observed on footage from the war zone recently suggests that their effectiveness has logically turned out to be far from expected. At the same time, the matter is most likely in the course (instead of attracting specialized specialists). The very principle of a "protective umbrella" against ammunition striking from above is certainly true, the question is in its correct technical implementation. That is, we need specialists, not handicrafts.

2020 "The process has begun" ... it seems

Source - the website of the Research Institute of Steel (niistali.ru), publication of 2020:

Starting this year, all contracts for the supply of the BMP-3 require it to be equipped with mounts for additional armored grilles... the Army-2020 military-technical forum has ended... many of the presented models of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers were equipped with additional protection elements, including screens -lattices...
Back in the early 2010s, the Ministry of Defense was quite skeptical about such improvements to combat vehicles. A project of a special body kit for tanks - the so-called "urban combat kit" - began several times, and then unexpectedly ended.
Many Russian military experts criticized the American experience of equipping armored vehicles with additional protection during the fighting in Iraq. Also, Ukrainian "bed" tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers received extremely negative reviews ...
In several works and materials of scientific and practical conferences, specialists from the Russian military department explained the shortcomings of additional armor protection. In particular, gratings load the undercarriage of combat vehicles. This leads to possible breakdowns, as well as premature use of the resource.

The real main reason for the objections to the gratings is the significant reduction in their "anti-HEAT effectiveness" against new anti-tank ammunition. However, here, in combination with other means of protection, their certain effectiveness remains, but their main positive factor (according to the results of real hostilities) and the Ukrainian experience will be discussed below.

The problem of the resource of equipment with additional armor (and increased mass) has been acute since the first experiments of the 30s, however, it has quite optimal design solutions - with a reasonable combination of protection issues (including additional), mobility and reliability. Actually, this is the work of military science (moreover, jointly with industry), and not so often our fantastic dreams that military equipment "dig the earth and fly into space" (and also have a "red button" "all enemies at once" ).

Yes, gratings tend to be damaged, which in peacetime also does not please either personnel or superiors. However, in war, both the equipment itself and those who are in it tend to be damaged (including fatally). And the military machine (and equipment) is actually not created for parades.

Well, the well-known - “a promising system is planned” and “well, we are not 41 years old, and the war is not on our territory” ( link) some of our superiors and part of our "military science" (in quotation marks).

Just one example, the article "Armoring military vehicles":

Taking into account the experience of using military motor vehicles (VAT) in local wars and armed conflicts of the last decade and the shortcomings identified in the process associated with armoring of the BAT, as well as the scientific and technical reserve in the field of protection available in Russia and other military-technical states of the world personnel from infantry weapons, fragments of mines and grenades, it is proposed to develop a light elastic protective coating for BAT, which, in terms of its tactical and technical characteristics, will not only not yield to the available means of protection against the effects of conventional weapons, but will also surpass them in a number of characteristics ...
As BAT will be covered completely, it is proposed to use external video cameras to control the machine (they are widely used in the passenger car industry), which will entail an increase in the visual overview of the area from the driver's workplace and the older car ...
The means of reducing visibility applied to the protective coating (including nanostructured ones) will solve a number of problems ...

And so on, and these (“nanostructured light elastic coatings with video cameras”) “convulsions of thought” (censoredly speaking) of our “military science”, this, excuse me, is not REN TV, not “famous popular prints”, but the magazine of the Military Academy General Staff (VAG GSh) "Military Thought", No. 10, 2010

As a result of such a “flight in space” of our “military science” (quotes will be correct here), in reality today we have vehicles in the combat zone, “re-armored” by personnel forces, including just “firewood”!

Further (an article from 2020 on the website of the Research Institute of Steel):

... only in the spring of last year [2019 - M.K.], Major General Bibik, appointed head of the Main Armored Directorate, said in an interview: “The experience gained in local armed conflicts allowed us to complete work on the creation of modern additional protection kits for serial tanks and combat vehicles infantry for their operations in urban areas. In 2020, the kits will already be delivered to the troops.
At the Army-2019 forum, Sergey Abdulov, chief designer of the Special Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering JSC, said that “BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles, already delivered and planned for delivery to the Russian army, will soon receive additional protection in the form of anti-cumulative grids and steel screens to protect against RPG shots. The first screens will receive the BMP-3, which the Ministry of Defense is purchasing under a contract for the supply of 168 combat vehicles until 2021 in the amount of 14 billion rubles. It is planned that "treshki" will replenish the fleet of combat vehicles of the Southern Military District. Judging by the statement of the general designer of JSC "SKBM", the "three rubles" received by the military department under contracts of 2015-2017 will also be finalized for the installation of additional armor protection. Then about 200 combat vehicles were delivered.

And in the same place:

at the Army-2020 forum, the Military Industrial Company presented a variant of the modernization of the BTR-82 with a new remote weapon module. If you carefully study the photo and video materials with armored personnel carriers BTR-82, posted on the website of the Ministry of Defense, you can find that starting this year, armored personnel carriers with characteristic mounts on the hull appear in the troops. They are needed to accommodate additional elements of armor protection, as well as lattice screens. So far, the vehicles are mainly supplied to units and subunits of the Marine Corps.

A very simple and very complex question arises at the same time - where is all this on the equipment going into battle in "special operation Z"?

"Ukrainian experience"

"Cracking" (and other options for strengthening protection) of armored vehicles with the start of the operation against Novorossia became massive in the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU). Moreover, as a rule, they did not think about real anti-cumulative effectiveness, they cooked what was, sometimes at the level of grates from a cemetery.

In our media and the Internet a lot of fun about this. However, real combat operations opened up factors that were not previously mentioned even by experts.

Based on real combat experience in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, it was found that no more than 10% of RPG grenades were broken by makeshift gratings, all the rest worked - with a regular penetration of armor (often both sides). However, a significant increase in the firing distance of grenades from the armor led (despite its penetration by a cumulative jet) to a sharp decrease in the armor action of the ammunition and a significant reduction in personnel losses.

At the same time, the effectiveness of the “correct” gratings (from RPG-7 grenades), which were regularly equipped in the Armed Forces of the BTR-4 and BTR-3, was confirmed.

It should be noted here that the high efficiency of the “correct gratings” and the massive failures of old expired rocket-propelled grenades (of the “Fly” type and others) among the Donbass militia led to a fairly wide distribution and use of anti-tank rifles left in warehouses since the war (despite all the problems with their use, known from the experience of the Great Patriotic War, which led to the almost complete abandonment of them by the end of 1944).

That is, the experience of 8 years of war in the Donbass gave a very valuable combat experience, which, however, was almost completely ignored by the relevant central bodies of the RF Ministry of Defense.

2022 Special operation of the RF Armed Forces

A few photographs that fully characterize the situation with the additional armoring of our equipment in the combat zone.

Motor transport.

Light armored vehicles (BMP-2).

I repeat - this is our equipment, not the Armed Forces of Ukraine (they have long since switched from “fences” to “correct lattices”), not the “Ukrainian” territorial defense, but ours. Those who wish can easily find even more picturesque similar photographs. And the main question is not in the exterior of this, but in the extremely low efficiency - with an obvious extreme need.

At the same time, it should be emphasized that even such means of protection are far from useless. Yes, of course, tree trunks will not stop a bullet from an effective distance, but many fragments are quite. So such an initiative by military personnel on the ground is quite appropriate and reasonable.

But a simple question arises - where are the regular, correct, developed by specialists and quite effective means of additional protection for automotive and light armored vehicles? So where is it all?

On all, absolutely all, photos and video materials, both of the enemy and of our side, both semi-official, from the people's republics and structures of A. Kadyrov, and officialdom (including accredited military journalists), they are simply absent. Both at the beginning of the operation, and now - more than a month later (despite all the losses incurred and the abandonment of the territory previously liberated from the "ukrovermacht"). Everything that was occasionally found in these materials is self-made handicraft.

Or we have "all the money went to parades and" Statuses-6 ( link) and Co"?

Who bears personal responsibility for the current situation?

PS

Additional protection of equipment is not only the saved lives and combat effectiveness of military personnel, it is a significantly increased capabilities of our troops in solving combat missions in the face of active opposition from the enemy - despite the fact that against the backdrop of a special operation in Ukraine, we are actually confronted by the most aggressive and militarily strong unit western block. And here comes the question for us: victory or death. In these conditions successful solution of combat missions there is our tomorrow, the future of the whole country.

Obviously, the mobilization of all the forces of the state for victory is needed, the troops must have everything that is possible for this.

And here additional means of protecting equipment are quite effective, inexpensive means that our industry is able to provide to our military in the shortest possible time (no import substitution is needed here.

I emphasize that even the low effectiveness of such means as gratings against modern anti-tank weapons is more than offset by a sharp decrease in the armor action of ammunition and a significant reduction in personnel losses (for infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers).

And the need to equip a significant part of vehicles in the combat zone with bulletproof / splinter protection is all the more undeniable.

At the same time, it is also important to preserve the navigability of the equipment, either by providing the possibility of removing additional protection, or by installing buoyancy blocks on it (which can also be relevant as an “anti-javelin” factor for reducing thermal visibility), or by keeping part of the armored vehicles in a floating version.

Comments

[Andre]

Who is responsible for the protection of armored vehicles, a brigade should be formed from them and sent to Mariupol. The part that manages itself along the way will be arrested, as those who admitted sabotage in their work, the rest of the survivors will make up a sharashka according to normal defense projects in prison.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Andre

the rest of the survivors will make up a sharashka according to the normal defense projects in the conclusion.

Yes, you are the second Stalin!
But in fact, I think that the mass installation of such means in peacetime is a clear sign of preparation for hostilities. And this is one of the reasons for the lack of gratings on vehicles, perhaps the main one.

[Aerodrome]

M. Klimov .. I don’t always share your point of view, but it’s obvious here that what they advertise and what we see are “two big differences”, not so much since the 40s, “fuel oil” is trying to survive. and bags of earth, and firewood. My grandfather also said that they hung logs and bags of earth on the "armor". -it helped. and he, neither more nor less, stood on the Volga, and König took. you need to dig .. and plant and shoot creatures that destroy the country from the inside. well, it doesn’t happen that a country, 16 years after a devastating war, sends Gagarin into space, and after more than seventy years, could not provide its troops with anything other than bags with earth. Is there something wrong...

[Torins]

.and plant and shoot creatures that are destroying the country from the inside. Well, it doesn’t happen that a country, 16 years after a devastating war, sends Gagarin into space, and after more than seventy years, can’t provide its troops with anything but bags of earth. Is there something wrong...

Watching how to lead the country, in 70 years you can fall into the Stone Age. And who will shoot? Government itself?

[Civil]

The very principle of a "protective umbrella" against ammunition striking from above is certainly true, the question is in its correct technical implementation. That is, we need specialists, not handicrafts.

"Caps" from Javelins are needed for the psychological stability of the crew in the first place. Yes, then they removed these "products". But the crews completed the tasks.

Who bears personal responsibility for the current situation?

Give at least one example when someone was attracted to us for insufficient security of equipment.

[AllXVahhaB]

Quote: Aerodrome

so that the country, 16 years after the devastating war, sent Gagarin into space, and could not, after more than seventy years, provide its troops with nothing but bags of earth. Is there something wrong...

So the country is different! There is no THAT Country ...

[Catfish]

Did they get the bars in the residential area, or was the school ripped off? Although, if you want to live, you will not dodge so.

[Pane Kohanku]

Did they get the bars in the residential area, or was the school ripped off? Although, if you want to live, you will not dodge so.

Uncle Kostya, hello. I'm not in the subject of armored vehicles, but I just saw this photo on Wikipedia - BMP-2 of Finland. It seems to me, or is the reservation still strengthened?

[Catfish]

Hi, Nikolay!

Accurately reinforced. Compare.

[Pane Kohanku]

Accurately reinforced. Compare.

I see. It would not hurt ours to do the same, probably ...

[Catfish]

As far as I know, we have BMP-2M in different versions.

[timokhin-aa]

In the PR campaign of Shoigu, they are also in the advertising of Rosoboronexport, nowhere else.

[alexmach]

Well, tanks with "anti-javelin visors" were seen in Ukraine. And they probably did not have time to finish and install these additional body kits.

Well, one more oddity - the landing on the BMD is used simply as infantry.

[max702]

It's expensive! The concept of the BMP-1 meant an offensive in the contaminated area under the cover of artillery that bombarded the enemy with shrapnel and completely justified itself during the exercises .. That is, it was considered the main thing to break through the enemy’s fortifications, losses after that were not read significant .. All according to the precepts of the Second World War, for the greatest losses were during breaking through the front line and overcoming water barriers .. These are the two main factors in building the BT of our army .. Times have changed, but this is not a decree for the military .. It turned out that the armor is thin and no one is going to swim, but they don’t want to change something .. Until the RF Ministry of Defense pay for each deceased insurance as the US Department of Defense from 1 million dollars in equivalent, nothing will change; on fire impact on the enemy, remote attacks in the spirit of "light cavalry", lack of sufficient air and combat cover for military columns and much more because the RF Ministry of Defense doesn’t seem to care about losses ..

[Catfish]

Beautifully "pleased", and reasoned. Nothing to say.

[Ka-52]

Until the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation pays for each deceased insurance as the US Department of Defense

we have 5 million insurance payment in the event of the death of a soldier. What is the obsessive desire to necessarily equalize with the United States? And why not with Italy or Pakistan? Or is American cabbage the sweetest?

[max702]

When you pay 50 rubles out of your pocket, this is one thing when 5000 rubles is another .. It starts to think differently .. My friend came from the states, we got into the car and she was the only one of us fastened in the back seat. To the question whose are you? She answered simply, how much is your belt fine? We are 500 rubles ... And we have $ 500 in the state ... That's it, everything is clear to us and it became ..
So with the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation they will pay not 5 million, but 80-100 million, and even a pension for the deceased under 250 rubles a month, then they will start thinking ..

[Ka-52]

When you pay 50 rubles out of your pocket, this is one thing when 5000 rubles is another .. It starts to think differently.

then why equate to the US? Let's outdo the US and make $10 million! Although no, let's 500 million. dollars! And what is petty? And let's remember what kind of booking the American Striker has? Not a single Stryker can withstand even a primitive PG-7V from the shaggy 60s of the last century. The standard US Army IOTV vest has protection class 4 - comparable to our 6B23-2 and even less than 6B43. And what armor does the American M939 Truck have ??? Try to name the armor protection class of this army truck. So what is the thrift of the American Defense Ministry towards its own, American soldiers? Only that they pay more for corpses? So you are for selling corpses at a higher price or for protecting life, I don’t understand?

[max702]

All this is poetry, but there are facts The United States in 1991 defeated the 4th army of the world, officially losing 156 people, 30 years later, according to official data, we lost 1351 people in ONE MONTH and fighting by no means with the 4th army of the world .. Don't you think that we are somehow don't we fight? Maybe huge payments for the dead and wounded will change something in the brains of the generals?

[Ka-52]

All this is poetry, but there are facts The United States in 1991 defeated the 4th army of the world, officially losing 156 people, 30 years later, according to official data, we lost 1351 people

like what will change? Change the concept of warfare? Bullshit. The losses of the first week of the war did not stem from the treatment of military personnel, but from the very original strategy of the war in Ukraine. You even put soldiers in the coolest tanks, even pay billions in insurance, but if you made a mistake with the strategy and your losses will be exactly the same. Look at the problem a little wider, and not through the keyhole. Compare US and Russian warfare methods. Can't you notice the difference? Then why are we arguing then?

[max702]

And the strategy is the attitude towards the military, if they protect their valuable resource and UAVs, missiles, precision-guided munitions go into battle, everything is done so that the soldier is as far as possible from the means of destruction of the enemy, but this is EXPENSIVE .. If the life of a soldier is equal in cost to the Tomahawk missile, then the Tomahawk is used because it will cause much more damage to the enemy than a soldier. I really like the methods of warfare of the United States because they are trying to protect their soldiers as much as possible .. We are fighting with the enemy whom he wants to kill US, therefore any methods in destroying him are good and acceptable .. It is more profitable for our generals to fight with soldiers, since they are "cheap", so I say a soldier for our Defense Ministry should become "expensive" so that other tools are used that, although expensive, are cheaper than a soldier's life ..

[Ka-52]

you write what clichés from manuals I will chew you one more time, for the last time. Maybe it will reach you, although it is unlikely.
The concept of US warfare is as simple as 3 pennies. They conduct an initial disarming strike against the entire infrastructure of the enemy. I repeat - all, not only the military. For a month they iron the country, destroying all technological potential. and only then does the land phase begin. Under which Americans do not care at all about the life of the population. Because the whole information picture is for them. They can destroy the enemy country for themselves for a month and two and six months.
But the Russian Federation is in a situation of a different moral and legal assessment by the world community. At the end of January, the Russian leadership understood that with the outbreak of war, the information field would be against us in any case. Therefore, the main stake was placed on the option of repeating the Crimean scenario - a quick entry, the encirclement of the places of deployment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with throws of mobile BTGs, the encirclement of cities and agglomerations. There was a calculation that the surrounded units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, having lost control, would not resist. The support of the population will allow you to quickly establish administrative control over the territories. Which ultimately was to prompt the Ukrainian government to resign and trigger new elections in the country. Thus, a quick victory in the war deprived the world community of time to react. In addition, we could not destroy the potential of Ukraine, because we made plans for it after the regime change. And for this we needed a loyal population, not one that hated us. That's what the bet was on - this was the STRATEGY of the operation in Ukraine!
None of this worked. The Armed Forces of Ukraine reacted quickly and mobile BTGs, cut off from the rear and not having flank cover, easily fell into the encirclement and were destroyed. The population briskly went to the terbats. The APU retained control and manageability. Which, in the conditions of a discontinuous front line and the small number of Russian groups, gave them an advantage. That's where the losses come from!. And no armor or compensation would help in this case.
Now tell me - how would 100 million compensation for the death of a serviceman save us from losses? Would this change the strategy in this situation? No, it didn't. Because there was a thousand times more value at stake. Now we understand that this was a mistake. Could this strategy be erroneous? Perhaps it was possible, but maybe not. We are all wise in hindsight.

[max702]

Didn't you think that the small losses of the RF Ministry of Defense as a result of payments to the deceased allow for such a strategy that you write about? You have the main paradigm, and what will the West say, and now you are dancing from it, but let's see, but we don't give a damn what he says? What can he do to us? Why is his opinion important? What kind of punishments from heaven can be worse than the losses that have been suffered? But do not give a damn only in one case if there is hope to negotiate with the West and especially not suffer material losses from it .. It’s not expensive to spit on your human spit .. Then everything falls into place .. True, this is a direct betrayal of the interests of the country, since in this case, she will be devoured! Only a little later. Not understanding this led to the current situation .. Terrible losses. Ukraine finally turns into a ruin, that is, we lost people and did not gain benefits .. Based on this, two options 1. Treachery, 2 Stupidity of the country's leadership. Neither the first nor the second option brings us anything good .. But if the Ministry of Defense realizes that the loss of drugs is unacceptable, then there will simply be no such strategies ala the Crimean scenario .. Turning the enemy into a desert should be cheaper than suffering damage from the opinion of the West and the death of their soldiers .. What did we risk in the Crimean scenario? Correctly, with large losses of drugs and mat parts, but we thought that it would be cheaper than the opinion of the West in the case of the Iraqi scenario for Ukraine .. And I'm talking about the fact that the losses of drugs should be VERY EXPENSIVE for our MO! At least in material terms, once there is no conscience ..

[timokhin-aa]

At the end of January, the Russian leadership understood that with the outbreak of war, the information field would be against us in any case. Therefore, the main stake was placed on the option of repeating the Crimean scenario - a quick entry, the encirclement of the places of deployment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with throws of mobile BTGs, the encirclement of cities and agglomerations. There was a calculation that the surrounded units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, having lost control, would not resist. The support of the population will allow you to quickly establish administrative control over the territories. Which ultimately was to prompt the Ukrainian government to resign and trigger new elections in the country. Thus, a quick victory in the war deprived the world community of time to react. In addition, we could not destroy the potential of Ukraine, because we made plans for it after the regime change. And for this we needed a loyal population, not one that hated us. That's what the bet was on - this was the STRATEGY of the operation in Ukraine!

The fallacy of which was obvious to any sane person long before the war. This strategy is a criminal failure of the General Staff and the 5th service of the FSB. It was criminal, because there was enough information about how we would be met, if anything.

[Ka-52]

The fallacy of which was obvious to any sane person long before the war. This strategy is a criminal failure of the General Staff and the 5th service of the FSB. It was criminal, because there was enough information about how we would be met, if anything.

it's easy to say it now. At the time, it probably seemed feasible.
Let's look at the situation from the other side. It was almost impossible to start a war in the format of combined arms operations on a wide front in February - the equipment would simply get stuck in the mud. Unfolding a military operation according to the American scenario (first we drive the country into the Stone Age for a month, then we enter and finish off focal resistance) will lead to Russia falling into deep antagonism towards the whole world. Which of course they wanted to avoid.
But it is necessary to prevent the transition of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to the offensive. Then what is the best strategy?

[timokhin-aa]

it's easy to say it now. At the time, it probably seemed feasible.

Can you point to those who said this BEFORE it all started?
There is no need to move off the topic, this shame of the General Staff will never be washed away, like the FSB.

It was almost impossible to start a war in the format of combined arms operations on a wide front in February - the equipment would simply get stuck in the mud.

So, from the point of view of the maneuver between the war "for all the money" and this NWO itself, there is no difference. Generally.
The difference in the use of weapons and the choice of targets, in our case, the enemy was allowed to get out of the strikes, turn around on the ground and occupy the cities INTENTIONALLY.

Unfolding a military operation according to the American scenario (first we drive the country into the Stone Age for a month, then we enter and finish off focal resistance) will lead to Russia falling into deep antagonism towards the whole world.

And what helped?

Which of course they wanted to avoid.

A criminal error as it is.

[Ka-52]

Can you point to those who said this BEFORE it all started?

Of course, it’s easy and simple for you to yell from the couch. People like you always have a comfortable position, you can't argue. But history is full of such miscalculations. The Barbarossa plan, the Rzhev-Vyazemsky operation, the Polish campaign of Tukhachevsky, the 6-day war, the US participation in the civil war in Vietnam .... and this is only the 20th century.

So, from the point of view of the maneuver between the war "for all the money" and this NWO itself, there is no difference. Generally.

Do you even understand WHAT they write to you and WHAT you answer? Where did you break your thought process? I will repeat once again: in February, it was basically impossible to carry out combined arms operations (with the use of heavy weapons). All equipment would simply stand in the fields. Accordingly, there remained only the option of an offensive along the roads, which did not allow a full-fledged front to be deployed in battle formations.

The difference in the use of weapons and the choice of targets, in our case, the enemy was allowed to get out of the strikes, turn around on the ground and occupy the cities INTENTIONALLY.

What are you smoking there? There is a reason for everything. Let me explain to me the reason for the deliberate decision to allow the Armed Forces of Ukraine to take defensive lines.

A criminal error as it is.

a mistake is not criminal, it is demagogy. The error is the trigger - either is, or is not present. An act can be criminal if it is qualified as such from the point of view of the law.

[timokhin-aa]

What a cheap body trade, huh?

Of course, it’s easy and simple for you to yell from the couch. People like you always have a comfortable position, you can't argue.

Once again, if I know BEFORE THE WAR that the troops are not technically ready, if the retirees who have not served in the General Staff since the 90s and volunteers from the Donbass BEFORE THE WAR know that the Armed Forces of Ukraine is not a weak enemy who will put up fierce resistance, then The General Staff has no right not to know this.
If the couch analyst knows, but intelligence does not know, then intelligence should be dispersed at best, does this require some kind of evidence?

Do you even understand WHAT they write to you and WHAT you answer? Where did you break your thought process? I will repeat once again: in February, it was basically impossible to carry out combined arms operations (with the use of heavy weapons). All equipment would simply stand in the fields. Accordingly, there remained only the option of an offensive along the roads, which did not allow a full-fledged front to be deployed in battle formations.

And it was a completely working option, if units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were hit by fire, aviation would work from the first hour in full force and without restrictions, etc.
But our strategists decided that we can win without it.

Let me explain to me the reason for the deliberate decision to allow the Armed Forces of Ukraine to take defensive lines.

I hope that Shoigu and Gerasimov will explain this in court one day, I really want to see it.

a mistake is not criminal, it is demagogy.

http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_10699/33ed8a9caec9cd5b4c329b9a17409a19c583d4d4/

Yes, the word error is superfluous here, I agree

[Ka-52]

If the armchair analyst knows

Let's not make each other laugh with such statements. Most of these analysts live in their own fantasy world and talk nonsense for the amusement of the same idiots as themselves.
In fact, the original strategy had a very good initial potential. But the mistakes made by the General Staff turned out to be critical - it was really necessary:
1. To strike at the places of deployment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
2. Inflict massive strikes on the transport and logistics infrastructure, preventing the transfer of forces and means.
3. The invasion forces were supposed to be 2-3 times larger than the actual ones. The mobile BTGs were to be immediately followed by second-echelon troops, who were entrenched in the occupied territory. The National Guard should not have been included in the BTG, but used in purely police operations. The dissection of Ukraine along the Irpen-Bila Tserkva-Uman-Odessa line with the blockade of Kyiv and the separation of the eastern group made it possible to create the initial background for negotiations (which was most likely the original goal). But it turned out what happened.

And it was a completely working option, if units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were hit by fire, aviation would work from the first hour in full force and without restrictions, etc.

do you believe in what you write? After all, you are here, on the site, kind of like the author of the materials. Why such stupid statements? Let's start with artillery. An ordinary receiver can shoot through no more than 15 km and 35 km in the case of the use of RZSO. What kind of massive and continuous "fire damage" to the entire depth of the theater are you writing about? Those. we are talking about the use of OTRK, KR and others like them. Moreover, in the OTRK they are suitable for hitting targets in the operational rear, and not as targets in the depths of the country - there is simply not enough range. Regarding the KR - 3 carriers of 8 UVP in each of the Black Sea waters, a total salvo of 24 KR .... that way, even before the carrot season, you can hammer Ukrainushka and stupidity. Of course, there are still strategists, but the air-based CR is an order of magnitude smaller than the rest.
Regarding the use of aviation, let's estimate the possibilities of creating an aviation group for SO, taking into account the available equipment in combat-ready status. The Americans in Yugoslavia had 600 cars of various classes. We could hardly put up more than 100-120 different classes. We could not and would not be able to suppress air defense in principle. And the theater of operations would not have given its specificity either. Even in the presence of opportunities and experience (which are not present). So, relying on the use of aviation for a massive raid, we must put up with losses of 30% or more (Americans have about 10%) of combat aircraft, not counting UAVs. Are we ready for such losses in the VKS? Don't know....
In any case, ranting about "massive bombing" is good for such publics. But in reality, the problems begin "how to do this?" The Americans have been pounding Iraq remotely for a month. And how much time do we need, the name in the presence of an outfit of forces 100 times smaller? half a year? Year?
I do not justify GSh, but I am skeptical of all couch urya recipes.

I hope that Shoigu and Gerasimov will explain this in court one day, I really want to see it.

it is not formulated in terms of a legal assessment. Moreover, SO, like all previous military operations of the USSR / Russia, 2/3 depended on the political situation. Both external and internal. Which certainly had an impact both on the scale of operations and on the number of forces and means involved in them. We recall OKSVA - also limited, also for the sake of political goals, also clearly not sufficient within the framework of the combat missions being performed.

[Havoc]

Quote: max702

All this is poetry, but there are facts The United States in 1991 defeated the 4th army of the world, officially losing 156 people, 30 years later, according to official data, we lost 1351 people in ONE MONTH and fighting by no means with the 4th army of the world .. Don't you think that we are somehow don't we fight? Maybe huge payments for the dead and wounded will change something in the brains of the generals?

Are you out of your mind, it was the Iraqi army that was the 4th in the world, and not that the French turned off all the air defense and all the locators that they put in Iraq, turning off all the Iraqi Air Force, but the fact that the senior officers simply fled and there was no one to command, those units of aircraft , which took off at their own peril, were shot down, and the tanks were destroyed by helicopters. And not only Americans were there, but a coalition of countries. There was no contact at all, aviation swept away everything.

[max702]

Attention to the question why WE are not fighting in the same way in Ukraine? what's stopping us? If we start talking about civilians, fraternal people, and so on, then this operation was not worth even starting!

[Evgesha]

No need to compare.
In 1991, the SA would have destroyed the 4th and 5th and 6th armies of the world combined.
The main thing you forgot.
What is the task before the army!!
How to free the territory, in what way:
1. fuck everything in a row - both the military and the peaceful, so that later they can calmly march
2.Accurately clean out enemies in cities without touching civilians

But.
Despite all the difficulties and conventions, I have a few questions for our warriors:
1.what the hell is the connection working in ukraine?
2.What the hell are communications in Ukraine??
3.what the hell is the sky over ukraine not closed?

[Alex777]

Quote: Evgesha

1.what the hell is the connection working in ukraine?

civil infrastructure.

Quote: Evgesha

2.What the hell are communications in Ukraine??

civil infrastructure.

Quote: Evgesha

3.what the hell is the sky over ukraine not closed?

No need for dust. The sky is closed.
Therefore, the West is trying to drag all the shit along the railway.
And weapons, and equipment, and their politicians on the railway ...

[Sigoulin Andrei]

Are you serious about IOTV??? Do you really work in the defense industry? Where did you get such outdated information. Now the US Army is finishing its fourth generation, along with a dozen other platforms (the free market decides). In 2012, the SAPI (br5) ceramic plates were replaced by ESAPI (br 6), according to ours, with the weight of one plate, which is about 2,5 kg, they hold 7,62 / 54 with an armor-piercing tip. I myself served in the foreign legion and have been wearing ceramic protection since 2012-2013. If you work in government agencies and you have such distorted information about the enemy, then it becomes clear why we have such problems now ...

[Sigoulin Andrei]

Now our guys, by hook or by crook, are buying normal commercial body armor / flagstones, because. everything that our army gives is complete crap (except for Granite ceramic slabs). Complete, outdated crap… all these warriors, all the equipment, shoes, helmets (under-the-shoulder device, there are no questions about Kevlar), individual first-aid kits are a separate shame, now we are collecting all over the world to buy Israeli bondages and turnstiles. And there are thousands of such examples. Now at the front, our Defense Ministry, our developers and those who were responsible for the obscene support are swearing absolutely everywhere.

[IVZ]

Am how often "strikers" and other equipment of the USA and Amer. servicemen climb into a direct clash with the enemy. There, they don’t pay attention to “human shields”, first they multiply by zero everyone who resists fire, without being embarrassed at all, and then everything else.

[Glagol1]

5 million for a dead soldier will not be enough. In the mattress country and in Europe, insurance is millionth in dollars, our money is 80 million, and we have 5 million. We do not value military work, we do not care about parents who raised heroes ...
It is necessary to raise, at least twice - three times, according to today's life, 5 million have already shriveled.

[Alex Barrett]

As far as we know from open sources, the payment for the deceased is 10-13 million rubles, that is, 175 thousand euros, which is also not a little. Plus all sorts of goodies for relatives and children. With oil super-profits, the state can afford it, no matter how cynical it may sound

[Hypertension]

Quote: Sea Cat

As far as I know, we have BMP-2M in different versions.

Oh, it would be nice to have such an increase in booking. Buoyancy is good, but during the entire special operation I did not see armored vehicles being transported by swimming somewhere. Constantly pontoon engineers work.

[max702]

Over the past 70 years of conflicts, it has been used only in Asia, and in the Arab-Israeli wars, everything is extremely limited ..
Generals are preparing for past wars (p.)

[Alexander Galaktionov]

Oh, my favorite modernization of the BMP 2M, but only with Berezhk, and three remarks, there are no video cameras like in the main photo and I have cameras on the armored personnel carrier there, there are no seats from the Steel Institute like on the BMP 3 Dragoons, only not face to face, but back to back and in additional protection, I left holes for loopholes to cover the right and left flanks and protect the floor like on BMP 3 Dragoons from mines, at least for the driver, but better completely, you need to look when hitting where there is more damage there and put

[Alexander Galaktionov]

By the way, there is a video with such protection, but without lattice screens, it floats on the video

[surok1]

As far as I understand, the armored action of cumulative ammunition is the main motive to ride not in armor, but on armor. And therefore, with a decrease in the armor action, the convenience of landing on the armor can be neglected.

[Catfish]

I can’t say anything, I served in the tank, and at that time the “Bee” was only accepted into service and only fairy tales went about it.

[Alexander Galaktionov]

Here, many giggled and threw their hats, but the armored personnel carrier 4 has a ukrobander with a teplyak, with ags and ptur and normal protection screens

[ZeeD]

Only on it the armor cracks ... For it is not of high quality.

[Dimon-chik-79]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

But in fact, I think that the mass installation of such means in peacetime is a clear sign of preparation for hostilities. And this is one of the reasons for the lack of gratings on equipment, perhaps the main

And I think that this is a sure sign of criminal negligence, moronity, lack of professionalism, and the fact that some officials in the Moscow Region are in the wrong place! Because if important conclusions have not been made in 40 years, then this is exactly so!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Dimon-chik-79

And I think that this is a sure sign of criminal negligence, debilism, not professionalism

This does not negate the fact that the mounted gratings DO NOT ALLOW the transportation of equipment either by railway transport or even by aviation, in most cases even screens are removed. Remember that the special operation began immediately after the completion of the exercises.

[Dimon-chik-79]

We are talking primarily about newer, more modern types of weapons, which are much smaller or non-existent. Or at least those decisions that were made during the Afghan war, it seems to me that the same BMP2D is not such a problem for our industry and is much better than just one or two! As for the gratings, this is not a problem either, for the most part they are easily removable, and there was plenty of time no more than making handicrafts!

[militarist63]

at least those decisions that were made during the Afghan war, it seems to me that the same BMP2D is not such a problem for our industry and is much better than just one or two!

Quite right! Moreover, I’ll tell you what the author didn’t mention here, not only BMP-2Ds, but also BMP-1Ds were widely used in Afghanistan!
But about what is given out here, as the words of the General Director of the Research Institute of Steel JSC D. Kupryunin, printed in the Arms Export magazine, namely:

The gratings were given a second life by the Research Institute of Steel during the war in Afghanistan. Then the grilles were optimized to protect lightly armored vehicles.

I can say this, either the journalists of the magazine who printed this text made a distortion of the words, or then their optimization did not go further than the research institutes and test sites! In Afghanistan, we only had tanks with bars, there were no lightly armored vehicles with barred screens! I note that I was there for the last 2,3 years (I left among the last), when all the innovations were already introduced there ... And after Afghanistan, I still served in a tank regiment, etc., in TurkVO for 3,5 years. And there, in some divisions, there were variants of the T-62M with lattice screens, but I didn’t even hear about infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, MT-LB with such screens then, not to mention the sight of them!

[tsvetahaki]

"And this is one of the reasons for the lack of gratings on vehicles, perhaps the main one."
Lattices can also be stored in warehouses.
Grandmas are the main reason.

[Gardamir]

You see, we live in a world of capital. This is not for you under the Soviets, when, "everything for the front, everything for victory." Now they are counting money. Remember before February 24, article after article about the sale of the latest military equipment abroad. Armata was shown in 2015, and what?

[Aerodrome]

Quote: Gardamir

. Armata was shown in 2015, and what?

and will show it today.

[tech3030]

We have both KAZs and reshotki, everything is there. The answer is really one - there is no money, but you hold on. But for this there is someone to ask, from those for whom the loot in their pocket is more precious than the life of our soldiers!

[Glory1974]

We have both KAZs and reshotki, everything is there. There is only one answer - there is no money, but you hold on

It's probably not just about the money though. If they wanted to make money on the bars, they would. Full scope for corruption. You can make a screen for 10 thousand, you can do it for 100.
It is not completely clear how effectively screens protect. Studies that do not give a clear answer in the public domain. Moreover, I read data on the loss of equipment for 10 years of wars in the Caucasus. In this fundamental study, there was not even a mention of additional screens on the equipment. That is, this factor was not even considered.

[Essex62]

The mattress covers had a serious srach about the shielded sheets and the hulled "Strikers". A lot of extra pounds quickly ruined the suspension. We conducted a study, interviewed the fighters, namely the rank and file. Conclusion - the efficiency is very decent.

[kytx]

If the Arabs come to the research institute and say "here's 100 lyams (conditionally) give us additional protection for just such a model"
Research Institute of Steel will take and make
And everyone will be happy
And the Arabs and research institutes and Rosoboronexport. And the state.

But for yourself? Why bother? Spend money?
And so normal!

This is what is happening here :(
Malice is not enough

[surok1]

We do not have an economy, we have hell-understand what.

[Awaz]

hm. How much time has passed since the commander in chief gave the order to deal with those who framed him and sent conscripts to the front? What do you think they are looking for? You don’t even need to look there, you just need to read the order and there is both the last name and the first name and the position and everything you need .. Delov for five minutes. And also look at the pictures of the fighters. It's surprising why there are guys on the front line in old Soviet helmets and in some places even without armored personnel carriers? I understand that these are guys from the Lao PDR, but this is our ally and they are fighting for us. Is it difficult to collect fifty thousand good equipment for the allies ... Where are our vaunted Warriors? The fighters are sorely lacking in night instruments, sights, or copters. I'm not talking about the insane strategic mistakes in planning the operation, which further hinder the work of the guys on the front line.

[FoBoss_V]

My opinion is that the responsible irresponsible leaders of the relevant departments and enterprises should bear real criminal liability under the article of treason. And this applies only to armored troops. They are used to sitting in warm offices with good expenses to do everything on their own .... but in fact our soldiers and officers are now paying with their lives for their well-fed well-being. This situation is unacceptable. Special times must be conditioned by special measures. The time of words and persuasion, red lines and concerns are in the past

[Ka-52]

My opinion is that the responsible irresponsible leaders of the relevant departments and enterprises should bear real criminal liability under the article of treason.

I think all these "responsible leaders" will easily explain their decision with mathematics.
Conditional figures (do not cling, taken from the ceiling, for comparison):
- Tigr armored car of standard armor, cost 5 million rubles.
- Tigr armored car with increased armor, cost 8 million rubles.
in total, the RF Armed Forces require 1000 units. The allocated budget of the Ministry of Defense is 5 billion rubles.
Now the question is: will you choose the option that 70% of the personnel will move on vehicles with enhanced armor, and the remaining 30% on foot? Or put everyone on the "Tigers"?
Of course, you can argue - let's increase the budget. Well, but the budget for the military-industrial complex is not rubber, and if you increase it here, it will fall off there. For example, you will get perfectly armored Tigers and armored personnel carriers, but you will not get Su-34s.
No matter how simple the question is, I would not immediately shout about betrayal. There are plenty of such examples (when the equipment was not ready for real operating conditions in the combat zone) both in history and in the current reality of the Americans (Vietnam, Iraq) and the British (Fonklands).
Maxim Klimov, with all due respect, of course distorts with photographs. EMNIP our aircraft have about 100-103 thousand. trucks Ural and Kamaz. They are used for various purposes, from transporting the D-30 to transporting the PAK-200 field kitchen. Book them all? Let's assume that the reservation was made for cars of new deliveries, the last couple of years. They made up the first echelon of equipment introduced to Ukraine and partly dropped out for various reasons (critical damage, breakdowns, destruction). What to replace them with? That's right, pick up in districts, remove from storage, and so on. Will they have a booking? Of course not. So it turns out that military personnel are already starting to make handicrafts of this equipment in whatever way.

[Vladimir Michailovich]

Stop lying already. There is not enough money. There is no need to throw money away for various full-time projects. How much did one KAMAZ dispose of? Who will be responsible for this? Who pushed all this junk for parades, worked out on an import base? All these KAMAZ and Rostecs will never have enough money.

[Ka-52]

what are you harping? Save your ardor for rallies - I'm not responsible for purchasing armored vehicles for the MoD. And I'm not responsible for its production. This is where people share their opinions. I'm just giving my opinion on how it most likely happens. How does your import base relate to booking? And how does the disposal of Kamaz relate to the topic under discussion? Can you essentially object, and not drag everything together like a market trader?

[Vladimir Michailovich]

We don’t know how to read. It was about the disposal of budget funds for R&D, Kamaz and Rostec.

[Ka-52]

your secrets and investigations are the least of my interest. You've got a wagon and a small cart. You specifically even took the heading "Opinions". But you stubbornly climb here, where the topic of weapons is being discussed.

[timokhin-aa]

. The allocated budget of the Ministry of Defense is 5 billion rubles.
Now the question is: will you choose the option that 70% of the personnel will move on vehicles with enhanced armor, and the remaining 30% on foot? Or put everyone on the "Tigers"?

The guys who are engaged in PR for Shoigu have cottages for three billion rubles apiece.
Maybe it was easier instead of PR to buy bars, for billions?

No need here lala please. A trillion rubles a year was spent on new weapons and military equipment.
Now take a couple of dozen videos of Russian convoys in Ukraine and count the percentage of equipment samples from the 80s there

[Ka-52]

The guys who are engaged in PR for Shoigu have cottages for three billion rubles apiece.
Maybe it was easier instead of PR to buy bars, for billions?

Oh, Alexander, there is no need to arrange a booth here again in your favorite manner. We are not discussing corruption here, dachas of officials, if life is on Mars or the volume of a spherical horse in a vacuum. I speak in very direct terms. Because I work within the same system. And the cries that her defenders, that her opponents are like spring thunder - somewhere it is heard, but there is no sense from him

[timokhin-aa]

And I tell you directly that you are lying when you hint that there was not enough money.
Was there enough money for the BMD-4 knocked out by fragments, which costs more than the T-90A, but was it not enough to strengthen the armor for the BMP-2?

Damn it, a simple cessation of funding for any of the PR offices that promoted Shoigu as a national hero would provide the MO with money for the armor protection of ALL infantry fighting vehicles.

I have a tank division at my side, there is now, as in a village nearby, a cemetery is being expanded, do I need to explain why? What are you campaigning for here?

[Ka-52]

And I tell you in the forehead that you are lying,

Firstly, a lie always has a goal - to mislead the interlocutor. For example, you often lie in your scribbles (which for some reason many consider reliable material) to create a certain information flow.
And in the comments we share opinions. Opinions may be correct (from the point of view of objectivity or from the point of view of society), or they may be erroneous. But what are the comments for then, because people express THEIR points of view in them. And you have only yours and it is the only correct one.
And secondly,

I have a tank division at my side, there is now, as in a village nearby, a cemetery is being expanded, do I need to explain why?

as a person who has been in the war, I know for sure that there are much more losses from the decisions of such as you trepachs from the command staff than from the reliability or unreliability of the attached weapons. Come on and drive the wave here

[Vigo]

You do not prove anything to the all-propalshchik. Don't waste time.

[cmax]

Quote: Ka-52

The guys who are engaged in PR for Shoigu have cottages for three billion rubles apiece.
Maybe it was easier instead of PR to buy bars, for billions?

Oh, Alexander, there is no need to arrange a booth here again in your favorite manner. We are not discussing corruption here, dachas of officials, if life is on Mars or the volume of a spherical horse in a vacuum. I speak in very direct terms. Because I work within the same system. And the cries that her defenders, that her opponents are like spring thunder - somewhere it is heard, but there is no sense from him

In fact, you've staged a farce here. The new AN-2 has been sawing for 20 years. Every year money is allocated, but where is the plane. Again, only in the advertisement of the Ministry of Trade flies on an imported engine. So the army really needed a new dress uniform? Maybe the money should have been spent on something more useful.

[Ka-52]

In fact, you've staged a farce here. The new AN-2 has been sawing for 20 years.

which side of the An-2 to armor wheeled vehicles? Can you answer directly or is there not enough spirit? Let's go straight to buckwheat and sugar.

[cmax]

Quote: Ka-52

In fact, you've staged a farce here. The new AN-2 has been sawing for 20 years.

which side of the An-2 to armor wheeled vehicles? Can you answer directly or is there not enough spirit? Let's go straight to buckwheat and sugar.

The same side as your two hands. This is one organism. So understandable or "assure" the Academy of Sciences. This is just an example of the "efficiency" of the current government, where the measure of success is a suitcase with banknotes and the presence of dozens of expensive watches in the sideboard, bought by the mother of the defendants for retirement.

[Ka-52]

This is just an example of the "efficiency" of the current government, where the measure of success is a suitcase with banknotes and the presence of dozens of expensive watches in the sideboard, bought by the mother of the defendants for retirement.

well. Name, an expert of the world military-industrial complex, what prevents Americans from booking their wheeled cargo vehicles such as FMTV or M939 Truck? Also An-2 or the helper's mother?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Ka-52

I speak in very direct terms. Because I work within the same system.

So is it the result of your work that the fighters have to do a body kit for equipment with firewood?

[Ka-52]

So is it the result of your work that the fighters have to do a body kit for equipment with firewood?

firewood is in your head, couch talker. I work for UAC. This is an airline company.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Ka-52

I work for UAC. This is an airline company.

So you've been riveting a replacement for a maize plant for 20 years? And where is the result?

[Ka-52]

So you've been riveting a replacement for a maize plant for 20 years? And where is the result?

When you sober up - read about RD-600, about PD-14, engines based on D-30, engines AL-31F M2, AL-41F1 / S

[Vladimir Michailovich]

we have already read about the RD-650 and VK-1500 and VK-2500, which were imported from Ukraine through Latvia. The D-30 is still a Soviet engine. Enough to fill in here about fake achievements. Yes, and the engines belong to the UEC and not to the KLA-reported in Israel ...

[Ka-52]

we have already read about the RD-650 and VK-1500 and VK-2500 which were imported from Ukraine through Latvia

read? Have you ever seen a helicopter engine, a couch expert? Did you touch him with your hands? Do you know how the VR-80 gearbox differs from the VR-24 gearbox? And how does VK-2500 differ from TV3-117 or TV3-117VMA-F?

D-30 Soviet still engine

what is the difference between the basic D-30 and the D-30F-6? Let's list the degrees of modernization, balabol. Let's move on from your vyserov to the technical subject.

[Vladimir Michailovich]

Clearly, there is nothing to say. That you are loading me with all sorts of nonsense, an expert :) The D-30F-6 is also a Soviet engine. A toucher with the handles of Soviet engines. In the country for 30 years, not a single serial engine has been put into production. Go write reports to the management.

[Ka-52]

Clearly, there is nothing to say. What are you loading me with all sorts of nonsense connoisseur :) D-30F-6 is also a Soviet engine

it’s clear that you can see on the couch your mother didn’t have time to tell the design features of the D-30F-6

In the country for 30 years, not a single serial engine has been put into production

are you from the pots? Such stubborn people are found only among those who are now denationalized. Now it’s clear why you howled about the VK-2500 there are you scribbling straight from the trench into VO? Although the question is rhetorical - you can not answer. The whole world is with you, you have already heard

[cmax]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

Quote: Ka-52

I work for UAC. This is an airline company.

So you've been riveting a replacement for a maize plant for 20 years? And where is the result?

Nah, they rivet a couple of IL-76s a year, then they receive bonuses. This is how they live. And the engine listed below is either still a Soviet backlog or in piece quantities.

[Ka-52]

Nah, they rivet a couple of IL-76s a year, then they receive bonuses.

a person who has brains in his head, and not garbage, will always be able to distinguish between the POSSIBILITIES of production and the NEEDS of the market. UAPK can build 3 cars per month, there would be orders. So your comment is at the level of a whisperer in a puddle.

And the engine listed below is either still a Soviet backlog or in piece quantities.

that is, should we blame the Mercedes concern for inaction? After all, all their models are based on the same principles as the first Mercedes 35 PS of the beginning of the last century - engine, body, four wheels. But can you say without Wikipedia what is the fundamental difference between the Al-41F1S engine and the base Al-31F?

[cmax]

Quote: Ka-52

Nah, they rivet a couple of IL-76s a year, then they receive bonuses.

a person who has brains in his head, and not garbage, will always be able to distinguish between the POSSIBILITIES of production and the NEEDS of the market. UAPK can build 3 cars per month, there would be orders. So your comment is at the level of a whisperer in a puddle.

And the engine listed below is either still a Soviet backlog or in piece quantities.

that is, should we blame the Mercedes concern for inaction? After all, all their models are based on the same principles as the first Mercedes 35 PS of the beginning of the last century - engine, body, four wheels. But can you say without Wikipedia what is the fundamental difference between the Al-41F1S engine and the base Al-31F?

Dear, no need to puff up. I graduated from the Faculty of Aircraft Engineering (Dynamics and Strength of Aircraft), I had an internship at the plant. Chkalova, Novosibirsk (Su-24, now Su-34). Diploma - the calculation of the strength of the suspension of a hanging container with a gun by the finite element method. Know what it is. Read on Wikipedia. And you don’t need to make 2 planes, but at least 40-50, then you won’t need a couple of engines either. About this conversation. And stop being smart and poke! The work of the UAC is not yet a sign of intelligence, and this can be seen in your example.

[Ka-52]

I graduated from an aircraft

Why do I need your waving diploma? From what side does the "dynamics and strength of aircraft" attach to the production capacity of the enterprise?

And the planes should not be made 2, but at least 40-50

who decides this? Management of the Ufa agro-industrial complex? Sheremetov, its general director? Or is it decided by the Customer, for example MO? Go to Shoigu and say: hey, Sergey Kuzhugetovich, I'm a certified aircraft designer here, I demand to buy not 2, but 122 Il-76 aircraft. And 204 more. I think you will then erect a monument in Ulyanovsk

[cmax]

Quote: Ka-52

I graduated from an aircraft

Why do I need your waving diploma? From what side does the "dynamics and strength of aircraft" attach to the production capacity of the enterprise?

And the planes should not be made 2, but at least 40-50

who decides this? Management of the Ufa agro-industrial complex? Sheremetov, its general director? Or is it decided by the Customer, for example MO? Go to Shoigu and say: hey, Sergey Kuzhugetovich, I'm a certified aircraft designer here, I demand to buy not 2, but 122 Il-76 aircraft. And 204 more. I think you will then erect a monument in Ulyanovsk

Being rude is probably the best thing you can afford. I think you are the same production worker as Shoigu, the Minister of Defense, you are sitting, shifting papers, agreeing with the authorities and thinking that you are working. You hang noodles on your ears. I hope the education is specialized, aviation, or also from the Ministry of Emergencies or from the penates of the city of Chubais, a "specialist" in nanotechnology and sawing money. Good luck, you give three planes a month.

[Ka-52]

I think you are the same production worker as Shoigu is the Minister of Defense. Sit, shift the papers, agree with the authorities and think that you are working

in the absence of arguments, starting to discuss an opponent is a sure sign of trolls. And there were so many feathers like a fan - "I am a certified aircraft designer" What is the difference between the Al-41F1S and the ancestor who has not yet given birth? You were allegedly at NAZ. I had to feel the 31st with my hands

[Vadim237]

With the new equipment T 14 T 15 Kurganets Boomerang, apparently, there are problems both in technical and production terms, so they are not yet purchased - in order to purchase it, you need to train personnel to service it, since this equipment is heaven and earth in terms of complexity compared to the fact that in the 80s they produced and what for the most part is in service with us. With KAZ and armored screens and anti-cumulative grilles and dynamic protection for infantry fighting vehicles BMD armored personnel carriers - they save because the kit of the same KAZ Arena costs at least 30 million plus consumable striking elements, dynamic protection of 15 million, again, plus another stock with grilles and armored screens is the same - how much we have armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, BMD tanks and MTLBs - 30 thousand - it turns out if we take almost a trillion rubles for 30 million to equip everything with the above.

[Gvardeetz77]

Quote: Vadim237

With KAZ and armored screens and anti-cumulative grilles and dynamic protection for infantry fighting vehicles BMD armored personnel carriers - they save because the kit of the same KAZ Arena costs at least 30 million plus expendable striking elements, dynamic protection of 15 million again, plus another stock with grilles and armored screens

And now consider that a motorized rifle squad is 8-11 people, a successful hit with a grenade or a shell, and it will take from 40 to 55 million only for insurance, and we don’t take other expenses for this squad and the moral and ethical side of the loss of personnel due to saving money.

[Vadim237]

The Ministry of Defense does not have a rubber budget - there are a lot of other costs besides the purchase of KAZ DZ hinged armor of lattice screens and so on - all the more they don’t save from mines and artillery shells and MLRS - most of our equipment in Ukraine is from artillery and anti-tank systems with RPGs hitting roof.

[surok1]

The author proposed a compromise. It is possible to retrofit not all machines, leave some as is, in case of overcoming water obstacles.

[Dimon-chik-79]

Quote: Ka-52

Well, but the budget for the military-industrial complex is not rubber, and if you increase it here, it will fall off there. For example, you will get perfectly armored Tigers and armored personnel carriers, but you will not get Su-34s.

You can't really disagree!!! But here the question arises, if we knew that the war was soon inevitable, THEN what for we needed all these gorgeous fireworks for the holidays, the maintenance of all these pop stars who also performed at these celebrations, sponsoring a shitty movie, all these football clubs on the funds State corporations, expensive electric buses, all this pathos and much more on one side of the scale and the lives of boys on the other! It's all about priorities!

[Ka-52]

You can't really disagree!!! But here the question arises, if we knew that the war was inevitable soon, THEN what for we needed all these

I agree, but there is one BUT: in my opinion, the decision to start a special operation was made last fall. And the size of all budget items of the Russian Federation were agreed more than a year ago. It is a fact that already a lot of secondary areas financed from the budget and not being a priority (in the area of ​​the updated situation) have been frozen. Why this was not done immediately, in the fall - I find it difficult to answer. I think that the "military analysts and strategies" of the Supreme Commander did not shy away from predicting the development of the situation in the theater of operations and gave a beautiful picture that the war could be won with small forces and little bloodshed, so quickly that neither the Armed Forces of Ukraine nor the world community would have time to come to their senses. Now even the most ardent urya-patriot understands the size of the problem and the cost of the solution.

[Dimon-chik-79]

Quote: Ka-52

in my opinion, the decision to start a special operation was made last fall

it's in your opinion! And according to the president and other high-ranking officials of the state, it was believed that the clash with ukrofascism was inevitable from the very birth of Ukraine, and from the age of 13 it became clear. See the latest press conference at the Vostochny Cosmodrome and earlier statements starting from 14!

I think that the "military analysts and strategists" of the Supreme did not slip into the forecast for the development of the situation in the theater of operations and gave a beautiful picture,

most likely, but then the question is where the Minister of Defense (and other high-ranking officials) "looked", how he "led" the personnel policy and why the sad experience of past years was not taken into account in "this plan" and who will be responsible for this?

Now even the most ardent urya-patriot understands the size of the problem and the cost of the solution.

Now, regarding the topic of the publication under discussion, didn’t they understand these problems in 95? and in 2000? and in 2008 the same questions did not arise? What did 2014 teach you? AND? In 2022, the Russian Army is "rolling out" to war (NVO) on almost the same as in Afghanistan !!! BMP1,2, BMD2, BTR80, Uralakh and KAMAZ trucks like 40 years ago! The curtain!
Yes, even here in this public, this topic has been frayed by both professional military and amateurs and all sorts of couch analysts for a good ten years now. Same! The models of equipment of the 60s-70s do not correspond to the realities of modern armed conflicts! And everything is clear and there are solutions on the surface and samples to choose from! And the boys are still dying in tin boxes !!!
Where are they?

[timokhin-aa]

Field Marshal Shoigu remained in the PR projects.

[Alexander Galaktionov]

Where are the supply vehicles on such an armored base of the Urals? I saw a photo with a tactical sign O Armored Kamaz, the cabin itself, as they do on a shell, saved lives there O BMP 3 Dragoons, it seems, with chairs from nii Steel with protection of another floor, some mats, where BMP 2 M with additional armor, where armored Kamaz and Urals for supply , for rszo hail where it is Where is the bmpt terminator, why did Algeria buy them for 300 pieces, where is the bmp 3 with additional protection like Iraq bought

[Ka-52]

it's in your opinion! And according to the president and other high-ranking officials of the state, it was believed that the clash with ukrofascism was inevitable from the very birth of Ukraine, and from the age of 13 it became clear.

This is demagogy and pointing fingers at the sky. It is you, on the couch, that the decision to start hostilities is made easily and naturally. I think this decision was not easy for the head of state, and for sure it was the only decision from the current situation. events always develop linearly, and neither in 2014, nor in 2016, nor in 2020 has anyone yet given a guarantee that war is inevitable. In 2020, there was certainly hope that the arrival of Zelensky would solve the problem of Donbass. After all, for a long time the republics were not recognized as separate entities from Ukraine.

most likely, but then the question is where the Minister of Defense (and other high-ranking officials) "looked", how he "led" the personnel policy and why the sad experience of past years was not taken into account in "this plan" and who will be responsible for this?

So ask him this question. Why the hell are you asking me? What am I, chargé d'affaires of the secretary of defense?

In 2022, the Russian Army is "rolling out" to war (NVO) on almost the same as in Afghanistan !!! BMP1,2, BMD2, BTR80, Uralakh and KAMAZ

did the author of the article bite you? There is no need to completely slip into the paroxysm of self-flagellation of "everything is gone". Where did you see the BTR-82 with the BPPU module in Afghanistan? wake up as for the BMP-1, I did not see them in the first wave. The army of Novorossiya - yes, there is. But not the RF Armed Forces.
Regarding Mazov and Kamazov, I wrote in the first comment - what exactly do you disagree with?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

BMP-1 is not such a backward machine. The low elevation angle is not a big problem when there is no mountain scenery around. And its main problem, in the form of detonation of ammunition during mine explosions, is not so relevant here and now. Its advantages in the form of cross-country ability and high-speed drive of the turret with weapons are still with her. But the BTR-70 or 80 were weak for combat right from the factory, and will be weak now.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I’ll clarify my own comment, a shrapnel shot was not enough to fight enemy infantry and support our own infantry, 73 mm is quite convincing and sufficient caliber for such ammunition. In some cases, it would even be preferable to the now so fashionable 30 mm automatic gun.

[Vladimir Michailovich]

The range of a direct shot is small, and the accuracy is not so hot, you won’t plant it on the move again, but there’s no stabilizer.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Come on! Have you tried to shoot with the same BMP-2 on the move? Everything trembles in the sight and it is hardly possible to hit. And in the presence of shrapnel, you don’t need to aim at all, you could hit somewhere there, approximately. The absence of a shrapnel shot is a serious miscalculation in the concept of using the BMP-1.

[Vladimir Michailovich]

I always shot with a short shot, and that's all !!! A BM with a front MTO sways a lot when moving. The stabilizer allows you to quickly aim and compensate for damped oscillations, and all the same, 250 rounds / min, all together, this significantly increases the likelihood of hitting a target. And in the BMP-1, you can lose your bearings during turning the car.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Who would argue that the BMP-2 is better.

[Gvardeetz77]

Quote: Ka-52

in my opinion, the decision to start the special operation was made last fall.

Previously, photos of anti-javelin visors-visors on VO began to flicker already in August

[max702]

It is clear that it is not possible to book all the equipment, but! For example, 100-150 thousand people are participating in the SVO, at the forefront, judging by the statements about 60 BTGs, this is 50 people, and now we are counting how many armored vehicles are needed, at least for them. You are talking about 000 vehicles in the entire army, I think 100 are not used in this operation, that is, directly on the front line 000-10 thousand maximum and now the question is, could our Defense Ministry prepare 000-2 thousand armored vehicles for a similar conflict Something suggests that it could .. But it didn’t see the point, because as you said They made up the first echelon of equipment introduced to Ukraine and partly dropped out for various reasons (critical damage, breakdowns, destruction) and what? Yes, it’s all just this armored vehicle that would have saved those very hundreds of lives from the 1351st that we learned about a month after the start of the operation .. The RF Ministry of Defense considered it not important because booking trucks is expensive, unlike the lives of soldiers .. so for the death of a soldier The Ministry of Defense pays 5 million, how much an armored Kamaz / Ural costs, I think you can find information, but I’m sure the “money” of the soldiers will be clearly cheaper ..

[timokhin-aa]

those hundreds of lives from 1351

Listen more to Konashenkov. Losses are actually very much higher, and this figure does not include Donetsk and Lugansk losses, and these are also our people.

[max702]

It is clear that the higher, always the official data is multiplied by three, the more questions for the RF Ministry of Defense ..

[Alexander Galaktionov]

Yes, the guards grew up with 5 cells of Tigers, and for the military with 3 cells it’s just mats, here you can see that armored vehicles ukrobanders poured and made protection for machine gunners, ours, as in the photo above the author, additional protection is done by the military themselves, the generals of those need to be sued, they even the war in Afghanistan does not teach anything, at least there were some BMP 2d who thought of it, and these only parquet Generals need to go to the front line themselves and not wipe the parquet in the offices

[ramzay21]

I think all these "responsible leaders" will easily explain their decision with mathematics.

They need more expensive projects to steal more money. And they are not interested in effective, massive and inexpensive solutions, they won’t be able to steal much there. This is what mathematics is.

Well, but the budget for the military-industrial complex is not rubber, and if you increase it here, it will fall off there. For example, you will get perfectly armored Tigers and armored personnel carriers, but you will not get Su-34s.

That's it. The problem is not that there is no money for rearmament, the problem is that respected people cannot get drunk in any way and there are more and more of these respected people

[Blacky]

In short, as the operation began in the first days, my heart ached, it physically hurt, although this had not been observed before, the first days of the operation were just a tragedy for me. 2-3 days. Now everything is as it should. There is no way to win this war. !!!!!! I will not forgive if we give back!

[The leader of the Redskins]

I won’t forgive if we give back!
And what will you do? What will be your unforgiveness?

[Dimon-chik-79]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

And what will you do? What will be your unforgiveness?

throw away the keyboard or smartphone...

[timokhin-aa]

Now everything is as it should be.

No, not even close to right.

[alesi13]

Yes, this letter has already been canceled in Europe, don't worry

[Gardamir]

That is, slowly, on the wave of false patriotism, you proudly refuse Russian letters? Why is the letter Z unpleasant to you, what are you changing to zeta? At one time, the Russian word volunteer was also easily replaced with a volunteer.

[Filxnumx]

Are we going to cancel Zorro too?

[Gardamir]

Zorro in spanish fox. Why don't you care about the Russian alphabet? Speaking of Spain, there are patriots and they don’t distort their language to please the arrogant people, here’s a small example.
Colgate Colgate Colgate
GPS j-p-es he-pe-es
Spiderman Spiderman Spiderman
smoothie smoothie
Wi Fi Wi Fi Wi Fi
First English spelling, second pronunciation in Russia, third pronunciation in Spain.

[Glory1974]

Germans also speak like Spaniards. They have a transcript. We speak in English transcription. What does the alphabet have to do with it?

You can say "MAY DAY" May day, (literally May day), or you can "MAU DAU". In which case do we spit in the alphabet? In the first or second?

[Gardamir]

When you replace the Russian "З" with the Latin Z.

[Glory1974]

no one replaced the Russian letter. They put identification marks on the equipment, but how they beat them does not say that they did not give a damn about the alphabet. I would also inflict other letters, even if in the West they forbid the entire alphabet

[Blacky]

IMHO in modern warfare this is a dead poultice

[timokhin-aa]

This is not true. Lattices reliably protect against non-tandem cumulative warheads

[Vadim237]

And from the same Javelins and NLAW, they both protect and from the same Panzerfausts 3 Stugn Contests of Milan - the first hit the roof, the second hit the side, but they all have shots with tandem cumulative warheads.

[timokhin-aa]

They do not protect against tandems, but they greatly reduce the armor effect - there were e-pages who, even thanks to an incorrectly conceived and poorly made umbrella, got off with shell shock when the tank hit the roof of the tower.

[Vadim237]

Reduces armor action - here even a tank on board with dynamic protection Relic was not good from hitting

[alesi13]

Well, the whole tank is in a relic, naked armor

[alesi13]

And in general it is not cumulative

[surok1]

As far as I understand, the purpose of the grating is to destroy the projectile and not collapse itself from the explosion. Do they really not hold a tandem projectile?

[alesi13]

How does it not collapse from the explosion, its purpose is to destroy the cumulative jet, or weaken its effect

[alesi13]

Of course, I don’t speculate, but at our shooting range, the marks from the grenade launcher looked different, everything is turned upside down here, and so is a neat funnel

[alesi13]

He himself was a grenade launcher, from a fly and an RPG 7 he shot at t 34

[surok1]

The grate passes the blast wave through itself.

[alesi13]

This is how exactly you need to get in order to between the bars, and the distance from the grate to the armor, the jet is no longer in focus

[surok1]

The jet has no focus. If she breaks through half a meter of steel, ten centimeters of air is not a hindrance to her. But a blast wave must penetrate the hole, which gives an armor effect. And the farther the explosion is from the hole, the smaller part of the blast wave gets inside the car.

[Vigo]

Rave. There is a focus. The armor action is small.

[surok1]

Pressure focus in the cumulative cavity, forming a metal jet. Outside the cavity (cone), the pressure dissipates, but the jet does not dissipate. This cannot be confused.

[Saxahorse]

Quote: timokhin-aa

This is not true. Lattices reliably protect against non-tandem cumulative warheads

Not true, and not good. The skepticism of our Ministry of Defense towards the bars is quite justified. Our army has vast experience in creating all kinds of home-made (and not only) devices for protection against cumulative weapons since the days of the Second World War. And the same grids have been studied repeatedly. The extremely low efficiency of this type of protection has long been known. If you carefully read what the same Research Institute of Steel writes, you would notice - "the efficiency of lattice screens is up to 0.5". And this is in ideal conditions if the enemy manages to shoot exactly along the normal to this "correct" grid. Even with small deviations, the benefit of the grid quickly tends to zero. Any self-made rubbish initially gives nothing but problems. Those 10% of the effectiveness of gratings in the Armed Forces of Ukraine are expired, long-rotten ammunition, plus those grenades that flew by, but were caught by widely spread gratings. Exactly the same was written by the Americans in Iraq - imaginary efficiency.

The only small benefit of gratings for light armored vehicles is the remote detonation of a grenade, which eliminates the breach of thin armor of an armored personnel carrier directly with an explosive grenade charge. But for this you do not need a span of one and a half meters, 70-100 mm of clearance is enough.

But the harm from the gratings is great, firstly, the bulkiness, which makes it very difficult for the car to maneuver in narrow spaces (and the whole city is like that), and secondly (and this is the main thing!) The gratings make it very difficult for the landing and landing of troops and crew. And you need to leave the burning car quickly!

You need to understand that even dynamic protection does not give 100% protection from the godfather. And it also depends on the angle. At optimal angles, and this is 50-70 degrees from the normal to the DZ module, Contact provides a reduction in penetration by the godfather by 50-80%, Relic up to 90%. But with hits close to the normal, the efficiency drops sharply, and the remote sensing no longer guarantees the reflection of the jet. There are also DZ for light armored vehicles, you correctly mentioned the development of the same Research Institute of Steel for the BMP-3. The disadvantage was also some bulkiness and lack of strength. Just because the elements (EDZ 4S24) had to be placed like an accordion, at an angle to the board on a flexible suspension. It turned out flimsy. Such protection must be immediately provided for in the design. They say Kurganets has it, everyone saw it outside from the caterpillars.

In general, the lattice is usually bullshit or eyewash (or both). The correct solution is an additional spaced booking. Simple and fairly inexpensive. The same Research Institute of Steel also has a lot of developments on compact armor screens. And it’s better not to fence the cemetery fences around your combat vehicle.

[DEDMOROZOV]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Quote: Andre

the rest of the survivors will make up a sharashka according to the normal defense projects in the conclusion.

Yes, you are the second Stalin!
But in fact, I think that the mass installation of such means in peacetime is a clear sign of preparation for hostilities. And this is one of the reasons for the lack of gratings on vehicles, perhaps the main one.

Have you smoked swoon????

[DEDMOROZOV]

Quote: Ka-52

My opinion is that the responsible irresponsible leaders of the relevant departments and enterprises should bear real criminal liability under the article of treason.

I think all these "responsible leaders" will easily explain their decision with mathematics.
Conditional figures (do not cling, taken from the ceiling, for comparison):
- Tigr armored car of standard armor, cost 5 million rubles.
- Tigr armored car with increased armor, cost 8 million rubles.
in total, the RF Armed Forces require 1000 units. The allocated budget of the Ministry of Defense is 5 billion rubles.
Now the question is: will you choose the option that 70% of the personnel will move on vehicles with enhanced armor, and the remaining 30% on foot? Or put everyone on the "Tigers"?
Of course, you can argue - let's increase the budget. Well, but the budget for the military-industrial complex is not rubber, and if you increase it here, it will fall off there. For example, you will get perfectly armored Tigers and armored personnel carriers, but you will not get Su-34s.
No matter how simple the question is, I would not immediately shout about betrayal. There are plenty of such examples (when the equipment was not ready for real operating conditions in the combat zone) both in history and in the current reality of the Americans (Vietnam, Iraq) and the British (Fonklands).
Maxim Klimov, with all due respect, of course distorts with photographs. EMNIP our aircraft have about 100-103 thousand. trucks Ural and Kamaz. They are used for various purposes, from transporting the D-30 to transporting the PAK-200 field kitchen. Book them all? Let's assume that the reservation was made for cars of new deliveries, the last couple of years. They made up the first echelon of equipment introduced to Ukraine and partly dropped out for various reasons (critical damage, breakdowns, destruction). What to replace them with? That's right, pick up in districts, remove from storage, and so on. Will they have a booking? Of course not. So it turns out that military personnel are already starting to make handicrafts of this equipment in whatever way.

And if you investigate who and how formed the price, it turns out that the real price is 4 million with additional booking (This is real in Russia)

[Morris812]

By the way, who will explain to me the meaning of armored glass? They, after any shelling from the riflemen, turn into an impenetrable muddy veil. Yes, there is no penetration, but how then to use the car if you can’t see shit, where to go?

[Free wind]

To be alive behind cloudy glass. or dead behind the transparent, something dezhe is not funny.

[Morris812]

I mean, why not cover them with armor additionally?

[Free wind]

If anyone rode old KAMAZ trucks, they probably saw holes from the inside of the cab. Above and above the instrument panel. Armor plates should be attached there. I have never seen them. I read that when a bullet hit, the plate was torn off and the driver's head was cut off. They were refused. They were not used.

[Moore]

Nothing that they are easily removable and change in the field at a time?

[Free wind]

On KAMAZ 3-4 hours. If triplex. If you are Stalinist, you are tormented by picking out the fragments. Hours 6 boldly. And if at least a little familiar with the technology.

[Moore]

It's about the Tiger and the like

[Moore]

Modular replacement.

[Free wind]

Not so long ago, bugs were heavily advertised. How are the brave warriors dissecting them, one republic at a time. And that you can’t see more than one bug, but what is it?

[Glory1974]

Buggy is a niche tool, obviously not for attacking company strongholds in the same formation as tanks.

[Nikolaevich I]

The topic, of course, is relevant ... and not "new"! Americans, for example, she "touched" in the 60s of the last century in Vietnam! Based on the results of combat experience, in particular, special armor protection kits for automotive equipment were developed ... Such armor protection was "hung" on vehicles directly in the troops if necessary! So there was a reason to learn from someone else's experience and other people's mistakes for a long time! But it is clear that other people's experience and mistakes are not a decree for "our" Ministry of Defense! And in Afghanistan I had to "learn" on my own ...! Moreover, not to generals and colonels from the Moscow Region! And to the soldiers, officers of active combat units! For someone else's experience of the "uncle" from the Moscow Region was not brought to them! "End" Afghan. And ... "this has never happened, but here it is again!" Is it really an "innate trait" of the military leadership of Russia to repeatedly step on a rake? Usually, all such "gaps" are explained by a lack of funds, but I have recently "remembered" the idea of ​​​​creating a "Fund for People's Assistance to the Armed Forces of Russia"! Why is such an idea "not interested" in the country's leadership for a long time? Moreover, this idea was not "liked" by some of the "readers" of VO! They say ... "the oligarchs are already robbing the people, so why should the people again pay for them ... why not ask the leadership of the country, who is" satisfied with "the existing" status quo "? "... And they are unaware that the people anyone will be responsible, in the end, for the country! For it is determined from Above! Oligarchs, even the ruling regime, can escape, abandon the country, try to betray, sell the country; but the people will remain anyway! And he will not go anywhere! For he has only this country - Russia! Or there will be none, if the people allow it ...! And I don't care about the oligarchs defecating in golden toilets! I am always ready to give a penny, a ruble (as much as I can!) to the Russian army and navy, without asking, unlike some: Why not the oligarchs? In the end, the country is the people and for the people, and not temporary swindlers who managed to reach the trough!

[Free wind]

Americans have hung screens on Shermans since 1944. And they used a wet ammunition rack. It helped well against faustpatrons.

[Catfish]

You're right. I didn’t find it with screens, but there is amateur performance.

[Free wind]

Probably not expressed correctly. Armor plates were hung on the forehead of the hull and on the turret, 25 mm thick.

[Catfish]

No, in any case, it’s correct, because here even a bag of stones serves as some kind of screen. A question of terminology, but the essence is the same.

[Sigoulin Andrei]

There are many volunteers who are raising money right now, not only for the fighters, but also for humanitarian aid. For example, go to Kassad's LiveJournal page, ladies are collecting 200 body armor for Donetsk conscripts.

[Dedok]

well said by the author:
"... Or do we have "all the money went to the parades and" Status-6 (link) and Co. "?
Who bears personal responsibility for the current situation? ..."

this confrontation showed how everything works for us: there are relations, pictures, but behind them there is emptiness
nothing changes, everything is according to the old patterns

[Clone]

Quote: Dedok

Or we have "all the money went to parades

Well, not only... also churches and temples. They were in dire need...

[Al_lexx]

Not a specialist in armored vehicles and the nuances of active protection systems. Therefore, I can not discuss the article with reason. Unless there is an assumption that the bars are placed for two reasons. First, because it needed to be done urgently. And secondly, I have no confidence that the full weighting of armored vehicles with active protection units can really protect this equipment from modern tandem ammunition. Those. if the box was worked out with something modern, then (in my humble opinion) no matter how protected it is, there is less than half the chance of surviving in it. Otherwise, they would still go to the frontal, deployed formation. And of course the question of price.

But here's what to me especially interesting. So this is how many of the local discussions are really specialists (developers) in protecting armored vehicles from cumulative ammunition? Something tells me that there are hardly more than two or three of the whole bunch of lovers to collect likes with a broom.))
...
The men who served in the armored, I can still understand. Although they are not developers, and cannot know all the nuances, they will naturally drown for maximum protection of the boxes. And how to do it, this is a question for the eggheads.

[Glory1974]

I am not sure that the full weighting of armored vehicles with active protection units will really be able to protect this equipment from modern tandem ammunition.

And what, Javelin and NLAV tandem ammunition? Or grenades for RPGs? Those that are now used in Ukraine are not like that. Therefore, they may well protect.

[Al_lexx]

Javelin hits in the upper projection, therefore, not in the context of the discussion at all. As for NLAV, I don't know. And there are a lot of different ammunition for RPGs, including tandem ones.

[Glory1974]

we are talking about specific military operations in Ukraine. And there are no tandem ammunition. Javelin in the context of the discussion, because it is also used there.

[timokhin-aa]

And there are no tandem ammunition.

There is

[Al_lexx]

Quote: glory1974

we are talking about specific military operations in Ukraine. And there are no tandem ammunition. Javelin in the context of the discussion, because it is also used there.

Are you dumb or pretending to be? ))
I explain, watch your hands.
1. Javelin hits the upper projection of armored vehicles, THEREFORE, it makes no sense to discuss it in the context of "welded gratings or active armor." Is it clear now?
2. For the RPG-7, back in the late 80s, a large number of different ammunition was created. Somehow - the "ordinary" cumulative, high-explosive fragmentation, thermobaric and (bingo!) cumulative tandem (PG-7VR). All these ammunition were used and are in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Is it clear now?

And here is your remark about specific military operations, I didn’t understand at all, since we are talking about whether these ammunition are in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine or not. And also about whether the lattice body kit of armored vehicles saves them from them or not. We are not talking about anything else here.
I repeat, the javelin has nothing to do with the context of the discussion, it doesn’t give a damn whether it has welded bars or not.

[Glory1974]

Javelin hits the upper projection of armored vehicles, THEREFORE, there is no point in discussing it in the context of "welded gratings or active armor." Is it clear now?

Have you seen welded gratings-visors on tanks? This is the additional protection against the Javelin.

All these ammunition were used and are in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

They were in service, but not available. There are no tandem shots for RPGs in Ukraine. Units may exist or were in warehouses, but not in the troops. As in our troops, they are not.

we are talking about whether these munitions are in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine or not. And also about whether the lattice body kit of armored vehicles saves them from them or not.

It is in service, and there is a big difference in stock. If there are tandem ammunition available, then the gratings are not effective. But since, in specific hostilities they are not, but the gratings are effective. Explained so well?
In Chechnya, the bars were saved. In Ukraine, maybe they don’t save from Javelin, or maybe they do. There are no statistics.

the javelin has nothing to do with the context of the discussion, he doesn’t give a damn whether he has welded bars or not.

There is a video of Javelins getting into tanks on the net. Not all tanks fail after that. Therefore, your statement is not true. You just don't know. And you can't know because there are no statistics.

[Al_lexx]

Quote: glory1974

There is a video of Javelins getting into tanks on the net. Not all tanks fail after that. Therefore, your statement is not true. You just don't know. And you can't know because there are no statistics.

Yes, I understand, I understand you, comrade general of sofa troops. Apologize to you, if you have the only correct opinion (your). I am not interested in this form of communication.

[Alexander Lysenko]

Panzerfaust with tandem. Nlav guano for pacifists, the Ukrainians themselves write. Panzer opens a light bt in horror. Nlav, when hovering at the tower, flies into the mto if it hits. Every third misfire. I can quote the crest. Very, by the way, literate and adequate on many issues of life in the outskirts. But the enemy.

[Bolt cutter]

, Javelin and NLAV tandem ammunition?

Tandem.

[Clone]

Quote: Al_lexx

would still go to the frontal

So the stay of the fighters ON the armor, and not inside the boxes, to some extent, is "walking in the frontal."

[Al_lexx]

Quote: Clone

So the stay of the fighters ON the armor, and not inside the boxes, to some extent, is "walking in the frontal."

You have a peculiar sense of humor.
Not punishable. ))))))

[Clone]

So it's not humor. For in those distant times, when he was still a lieutenant, he himself went to the designated "frontal" ... one leg in the hatch, and the other on the armor.

[Al_lexx]

We will assume that the air defense exchanged views with the infantry.))

[EvilLion]

1) The basis of BMP protection is not armor, but its place in battle formations, where the probability of its defeat from RPGs is much lower. Comparing it to tanks is pointless. Attempts to solve the problem head-on by developing heavy infantry fighting vehicles can only be niche, and not only because of the complete loss of buoyancy and a critical decrease in air transportability, but also due to the fact that all this equipment is trite to provide neither armored steel for manufacturing, nor fuel and lubricants in operation, which means you have to save on something, on the tanks themselves.

2) Filling vehicles with sand and firewood is a global trend in the war zone. But as for the grilles, etc., they protrude beyond the size, the equipment touches a lot of everything when moving, and any body kit simply breaks. Well, if only body kit. No time to restore later. Actually, the visors were welded on before the war, but then I didn’t see tanks with them. And in general, from successful examples, add. protection, I can only remember the Americans, who, after the Battle of the Bulge, cut out entire frontal armor plates from destroyed tanks and attached them to their Shermans, the undercarriage probably quickly became unwell, but the crew, when it hit the front of the PAK-40, really often had "ha- ha, cho Fritz, broke off?!".

In general, the effectiveness of all these "measures", especially on light vehicles, which the RPG will still pierce, and it is better to have not a grill on the outside, but an anti-fragmentation lining inside, as on the BTR-82, is most likely insignificant and more reassures the crews.

[Glory1974]

the effectiveness of all these "measures", especially on light vehicles, which the RPG will penetrate anyway,

Disagree with you. In Chechnya, there were cases when an RPG grenade hit the handrail on the armor of an armored personnel carrier and there was no penetration of the armor. They also saved boxes with stones tied to armor. Therefore, such protection saves just from RPGs. Probably not from ATGMs, but the tank is not protected from them either.

[bk0010]

Quote: EvilLion

The basis of BMP protection is not armor, but its place in battle formations, where the probability of its defeat from RPGs is much lower.

Quite right. They just use infantry fighting vehicles anywhere, and not just to move infantry through the center of destruction or behind tanks, behind a barrage of fire. Therefore, IMHO, it is necessary to switch to modular booking. The base infantry fighting vehicle must float and be able to fly a heavy transporter. The crew should be able on their own (without involving under equipment, but with equipment it is better, of course) to hang or remove additional armor. It is clear that there are no terminators to hang the front plate (it must be installed immediately, at the factory), but it is quite possible to hang the sides, top and stern. Yes, this armor is less resistant than one piece, but important tactical and strategic features are not lost with it. It should be possible to use standard methods to hang on extra. armor (or directly on the car, if you need to swim, let's say, you need) more dynamic protection, grilles or even another layer of armor. That is, the new infantry fighting vehicles need to strengthen the engine, chassis, make standard mounts and think over the issues of weight distribution control.

[Servisinzhener]

One of the few adequate comments.

[Cosmemedic]

At a minimum: on each technique there should be a structurally provided possibility of installing and removing such protection. On the whole! And the bars are at least in stock.

[dnestr74]

Everything went to the tank biathlon ... Toys, fuck

[Graz]

for the infantry, it was necessary to make a heavy mass infantry fighting vehicle (armored personnel carrier) for a long time, there is no money for the t-15, make from old tanks, which are quite a few in storage warehouses, already in 2014 it was possible to make a bunch of such equipment, there are a lot of options and this is Jewish akhzarit, the United Arab Emirates or Jordan, too, there was a conversion from our tanks, the Ukrainians had a conversion from the T-64, we also have an interesting car from the flamethrowers, which also plays the role of a heavy armored personnel carrier, an infantry fighting vehicle will fit

[Dimon-chik-79]

That's it! And such developments based on the T 55 and T72 have been around for a very long time! Such a quantity of armored vehicles is wasted in vain, when it could save more than a dozen lives of our boys and bring the day of victory over ukrofascism closer !!!

[ramzay21]

And such developments based on the T 55 and T72 have been around for a very long time! Such an amount of armored vehicles is wasted for nothing, when it could save more than a dozen lives of our boys

All this has not been done, is not being done and will not be done for one reason, respected people will not make any money on this. And as long as such respected people are in our power, nothing will be done. And the lives of ordinary people these creatures are not interested

[EvilLion]

Only the result will be near zero.

[Maks1995]

I just remember: Saw weights, Shura! They are golden!

After all, Shoigu reported that over 70% of the equipment was modernized to the present. And there are many forests in the country.

[Zaurbek]

By the way, I also wanted to note, I don’t see:
1. BMP2 (like "late Afghan" with additional protection.)
2. I do not see the BMP-2M (With BM Berezhok with 3pcs Cornet)
3. I don't see the T-90M
4. I don't see the BTR-82M with additional consignment note armor.
5. I don't see "Terminators"
6. I don’t see the Kamaz-Typhoon MRAP (small)

About the protection of the shooter on the Tiger, they have already said and written a bunch of times ... there is an example of the USA and Turkey ... The same protection should be on the Tanks already ....

[Adrey]

Quote: Zaurbek

By the way, I also wanted to note, I don’t see:
1. BMP2 (like "late Afghan" with additional protection.)
2. I do not see the BMP-2M (With BM Berezhok with 3pcs Cornet)
3. I don't see the T-90M
4. I don't see the BTR-82M with additional consignment note armor.
5. I don't see "Terminators"
6. I don’t see the Kamaz-Typhoon MRAP (small)

As where? Coming soon May 9th. Getting ready for the parade. All.

[Dimon-chik-79]

It seems so ...

[max702]

There were 40 terminators in the cart, they were carrying XNUMX pieces .. in a light green coloring not desert .. We'll see soon ... Why not first? Not to me, but to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, contact ...

[Vadim237]

Two days ago, a train with BMPT Terminator 2 passed near Belgorod.

[Glory1974]

One part of the military believes that gratings do not save equipment. The other part, mainly those who go into battle, believe that the gratings save. Therefore, experiments are underway, they even showed it on Zvezda. They shoot at the screens, draw some conclusions. But things are still there.
Unfortunately, after the hostilities, the personnel probably do not get into high headquarters, therefore they cannot convey their truth to their superiors.
In Chechnya, we installed screens on equipment, and zinc boxes with b / c with bricks and sand, and sheathed the cars with logs. And it saved! Yes, not always. But the chances of being saved definitely increased. Therefore, I am definitely for screens and bars. They should be done in the factory way, as efficiently as possible.
Are visors effective on tanks? Don't know. We need to raise the statistics, see how many hits and penetrations there were. But the fact that they are not visible on tanks now does not mean that they are not effective.

[Pilat2009]

Has anyone seen the BMP-3 in the photo from the database? In my opinion, the BMP-2 does not fit into any gates

[max702]

They are there, as they are, and there is a video with additional protection against which they shot with different calibers .. It holds up with dignity .. There are no "reviews" yet, but they will be later ..

[Common sense]

Saw. Even lined and burned down with torn off towers.
But the BMP-1 from the storage bases is much larger, and this is a complete mess on our part.
As always "save". Well, or take care of modern equipment in reserve in case of expanding the database zone.

[Okolotochny]

Klimov, do you miss naval themes? Now you have decided to go through armored vehicles? Just a member of the General Staff. So armors do not hold many ammunition. Let's put some extra protection on them, shall we? There is a variant according to your "recipe", "New Mouse". Let's move the project forward.

[timokhin-aa]

Licking the ass of the Ministry of Defense is so important that for the sake of this, personnel can be sacrificed, right?
If only no one blathered at the authorities.

[Okolotochny]

And you have only two behaviors - "lick ass" or "yapping"? No others? Name better the leading armies of the world, in which ALL automotive and armored vehicles are 100% protected from portable anti-tank systems ??? You here mockingly posted photos of our KAMAZ trucks with homemade protection. Didn't it occur to you that this technique is not intended for driving in battlefield collisions? Do you propose to equip the ENTIRE fleet in the Moscow region with such protection? According to Afghan photos (time of the Limited contingent) - have you seen those photos ??? Photos of convoys ??? There, armor plates were hung on the driver's doors. Neither the infantry fighting vehicle nor the armored personnel carrier had self-made screens. Well, give your assessment of the activities of the USSR Ministry of Defense?

[Comrade I]

...this technique is not intended for driving in collision areas...

Do you propose to equip the ENTIRE fleet in the Moscow region with such protection?

The equipment involved in convoys simply must be equipped with bulletproof protection.
Especially in the context of partisan actions and the fact that within the framework of the current operation without a front line, a huge amount of territory is not cleared and many settlements are simply bypassed. What creates freedom for the actions of enemy groups in our rear and on communications.

[Vladimir Michailovich]

Enough to break the fool. It is enough to lay fasteners in the basic design of the cab for quick installation of protection, for cars heading to the database zone. But KAMAZ can’t do anything - they don’t have their own engineers. They can’t even develop a cabin for VT. And if you remember the “o” platform, then it’s all over ...

[timokhin-aa]

And you have only two behaviors - "lick ass" or "yapping"? No others?

Do not distort, to live, having a gentleman who wipes your feet on your face is your personal choice, not an objective necessity.
Thousands of soldiers and officers who died in vain, it was the personal choice of Shoigu and then Gerasimov and Co., and not an objective necessity.
Do you want to assent to these disgraceful? Assent, but do not get up in a pose at the same time.

Name better the leading armies of the world, in which ALL automotive and armored vehicles are 100% protected from portable anti-tank systems ???

The question is not this, but to have at least protection from RPGs and riflemen.
Here are two random photographs of an American convoy from different parts of the planet.
It is seen?

What prevented Field Marshal Shoigu from doing the same at least? Not enough time since 2012? Or was a trillion a year not enough?

[Okolotochny]

I don't agree. By the way, at VO there was a call for the duration of the special operation to stop shaking the topics of “professional suitability” of the Moscow Region. But you can see in the fig, you still need to yelp. What are you, that Klimov, climb into all topics - into the fleet (completely), shout "Sentry, we will lose, there are no collimators", now into the security of armored vehicles. What kind of education do you and Klimov have? I understand at least the Frunze Academy? Or maybe the General Staff Academy? Analysts sofa.

[timokhin-aa]

By the way, at VO there was a call for the duration of the special operation to stop rocking the topics of "professional suitability" of the Moscow Region

So everyone is silent in a rag. Shoigu and Co. in a decent society would already be under the tribunal.
But nothing, wait.

Or maybe the General Staff Academy? Analysts sofa.

Sofa or not, but practice has shown that we were right, and the General Staff got pissed off.
That's all

[ramzay21]

Well, give your assessment of the activities of the USSR Ministry of Defense?

Judging by the fact that exactly the same armored vehicles and vehicles are still being used as more than 30 years ago, one can highly appreciate the activities of the USSR Ministry of Defense.
And here is how to evaluate the activities of the Russian Defense Ministry, which has not done anything for more than 30 years to protect people and equipment, neither by the results of the experience in Afghanistan, nor by the experience of both Chechen wars, nor by the conflicts in the Donbass and Syria. What did our Defense Ministry do in response to the appearance of the latest generation of anti-tank systems and the massive appearance of such things as strike UAVs and loitering ammunition?
Some parades, ridicule of all advanced weapons and window dressing.
According to such results, it is necessary to bring all the guilty, first of all, respected people, to a military tribunal with the imposition of capital punishment on the guilty.

[Okolotochny]

Before you "put against the wall" give your proposal as it should! Another Attractive sofa. We would go as a volunteer and show how it should be. You can only whine on the Internet. Whatever the comment, then snot and tears. It's disgusting. It can be seen that they served in the fleet, and with a knowing look you climb into topics that you understand like a pig in oranges. Once again - show by your example, with Timokhin, Klimov to the draft board and volunteers. And then show them how to fight. You can in the MTO divisions, Show how to properly mount additional protection on equipment.
And for Attracting - such people like you attracted in difficult times for the country. To not disturb others with your whining.

[Vadim237]

One of these is right - now take all Shilka from storage, remove the radar from them, hang around them with steel sheets and lattice screens, install an aiming observation system and introduce at least two pieces into all mobile units to strengthen the fire cover of columns and during the assault on cities and towns, the second a proposal to sharply increase the production of OVR 3Sh equipment, which provides significantly better protection in urban combat operations than Ratnik; the third proposal to sharply increase the production of RSHG 1 RSHG 2 and RMG grenade launchers - to increase the production of collimator sights, thermal imaging sights and universal binoculars of the day - thermal imager night class to increase the production of 12.7 mm rifles so that there is one per platoon - given how many similar rifles the West of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the National Battalions set to increase the production of 120 mm Nona K guns - for the war in Ukraine, it can be used simultaneously as a howitzer cannon and mortar, the maximum firing range of 12.8 kilometers can be used to take guided projectiles Kitolov and Gran, guided by the illumination of the drone, the gun weighs 1.2 tons, which allows it to be moved using any jeep to increase the production of strike modifications of the Forpost R UAV to 2000 pieces per year, it is not as difficult to manufacture as Orion, especially since its production has been established for a long time and mastered considering the use of APU tactics of shelter in residential areas and buildings, their use in mass with mini missiles and laser-guided bombs will greatly simplify the assault on cities, the detection and destruction of enemy equipment and artillery. It is necessary to prepare all this now, since the war in Ukraine will be long and, apparently, it will definitely not end this year.

[Clone]

And why the hell are we "leaders" with flaws, if we are talking about the problems of our own Army? Problems that suddenly swelled against the backdrop of bravura reports! Only "humanity" in relation to the enemy will not increase the protection of your own equipment, the life of crews and crews. And since there is no protection for our own, then there should be no humanity towards the enemy. But that's a slightly different topic...

[max702]

Duc in all the forecasts is a complete fail, and here the owners threw it in, advising to scribble scribbles more sane, otherwise it was completely scorched ..

[nobody75]

Maxim Galkin in Israel holds a high-quality show: "The use of armored vehicles in urban combat." 200 shekels per ticket. T to statistical data on the first assault on the formidable, he processed - all questions to him.
Sincerely

[Dimon-chik-79]

Remember how most of this public ridiculed the dill ersatz of handicraft armored trucks! Well, what do you say now?! ...
Pain sadness, horror shame! This issue is acute from Afghanistan, then the 1st Chechen passed! AND? The result is in the photo! Logs, sandbags, armor in the doors! Shut up!!! And apparently, during the war in Afghanistan, much more attention was paid to the additional protection of equipment! This is the BMP2D and reinforcement with gratings of other equipment. But what is happening today simply defies any logical explanation! To go through so many conflicts and do almost nothing ... Someone must answer for this to the fullest extent!
This is how our army should be provided!

[timokhin-aa]

Please note that all the pictures except one are from 2015, the army was then still riding on the “fuse” of Serdyukov.

[Dimon-chik-79]

And then there was not much progress! There were themes "Vodnik", "Shot", for example, but this also died out ... the change of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles ran into the never-realized "Boomerang" and "Kurganets", although there was a kind of titmouse in the hands in the form of an armored personnel carrier 87, BMP3 DRAGUN and Ural BB and it would be much better than nothing in the form of what rolled into Ukraine ...
There is no question of priorities and competencies here)) when the country is spent on all sorts of tinsel, such as football and the uncontrolled distribution of money to a particularly close part of our society, and the army is underfunded. Thank God that there was enough for missile weapons, aviation and air defense! Of course, the "Caliber" and "Isksders" showered the adversary gloriously and did not let down the air defense. For the rest, of course, sadness is wild, especially realizing that there were opportunities to rectify the situation. As the great Stalin said, "cadres decide everything" and now these cadres have been solved ... and this seems to be our main problem and misfortune.

[Clone]

"Fuse from Serdyukov" is still disentangled. Especially in the field of military education. "Elephant in a china shop".

[timokhin-aa]

But under Shoigu, they went to the biggest war after WWII on Soviet technology ... the question is, where did the money go?

[sen]

On the protection of automotive and light armored vehicles in the special operation "Z"

This is normal when the protection of armored vehicles is being finalized "manually". Everyone wants to live. And Israel does this, down to the sandbags, but this trend is especially pronounced in Syria.

[Wildcat]

It is good that there is M. Klimov (I do not always agree with him) and it is good that he writes such articles.
Even if it saves one life, it's already good.

[Dimon-chik-79]

Yes, how to convey only this to those who make decisions! We can only yell ourselves at every corner, raise the issue in society, so that this problem would not be "blurred"

[Wildcat]

Fits and rises great.

In the runet part, "Timokhin and Klimov" (hereinafter referred to as "T and K") are able to "raise a wave." It is possible that the effect will be positive, the Runet is being monitored, and here - "almost unanimous misunderstanding and condemnation of the most active part of users for not using cheap developments (to reduce the loss of l / s) even during the Afghan war."

They still like to write official letters "on questions", and not as a "group of comrades", but sign them themselves. The bureaucracy works exactly like this: "for each incoming, give an outgoing one, report on the measures taken."

Well, my IMHO about "T and K" over the past few years has not changed "for iron, as always, everything is fine, and the rest .... and alhistoria" (fortunately, this article is almost all about hardware).
As they say - stability is a sign of mastery!

[Dimon-chik-79]

Yes, interesting by the way. A drop wears away a stone.

[tone]

Yes, the generals and the authorities do not care, the women still give birth. Although if it could be drank on this ...

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Israel in the desert, with a population of 10 million, was able to create and put KAZ on its tanks, Russia, where work on KAZ has been going on for 50 years or even more, has not yet delivered a single tank to the troops with KAZ.

Instead of KAZ on tanks, I hear only excuses that KAZ is expensive, that KAZ, when triggered, can hit its own infantry. I just don't understand what's going on in the minds of those who say that? KAZ is no more expensive than a tank, since the lives of our soldiers are priceless, that is, free for the Moscow Region, and if our tank is hit with a b / c detonation or even without it, the infantry will clearly be in a much worse position and condition than with a tank that can reflect a grenade from RPGs or ATGMs, even if someone is hit by a fragment, then the chances of surviving are still many times greater.

[max702]

Israel is an assembly of the achievements of the entire planet earth, and not a rocky desert with 10 million people .. like all the money of the Western world, and the media of it .. Considering that Israel is 10 million is the greatest stupidity that Israel itself supports ..

[RED_ICE]

All our new equipment is only at exhibitions and parades. In the troops, everything is done in an artisanal way

[Vadim237]

Only this handicraft, like nichrome visors, does not save either the car or the crew

and judging by the number of photographs, all tanks with visors were hit or destroyed in total, they counted 173 irretrievable tanks, including the T 90A

[RED_ICE]

So what am I talking about? All modern protection only at exhibitions and parades

[Servisinzhener]

The photographs you provided show tanks that did not help.
And in the article they write that add. armor and dynamic protection supposedly will greatly help lightly armored or non-armored vehicles at all. As such, these two facts are not very linked with each other.

[Vadim237]

In short, we need an active protection complex with it, at least the probability of hitting an infantry fighting vehicle and armored personnel carrier tank will be an order of magnitude less than from hinged screens and dynamic blocks - and a new technique is needed in which the BC is taken out of the habitable spaces of the crew, such equipment is T 14 T 15 Boomerang and The Kurgan and their armor are much better than the existing one - but alas, they are only in single copies and during tests that are accompanied by identified problems and their elimination, from which the introduction into the troops is stalling.

[Servisinzhener]

Here is KAZ, a completely reasonable solution, albeit limited in terms of the range of preventable threats. Only from ATGMs and grenade launchers. In the form of a small removable module with a couple of charges on each side.
For good, to draw conclusions about the need to strengthen protection to one degree or another. We need damage statistics. What equipment is damaged by what and how and under what circumstances.
Because if you book everything in a row and to the maximum, then all the equipment will have to be made on the basis of the running gear of walking excavators.

[Radical]

Quote: Andre

Who is responsible for the protection of armored vehicles, a brigade should be formed from them and sent to Mariupol. The part that manages itself along the way will be arrested, as those who admitted sabotage in their work, the rest of the survivors will make up a sharashka according to normal defense projects in prison.

Respect!

[Radical]

Quote: Okolotochny

And you have only two behaviors - "lick ass" or "yapping"? No others? Name better the leading armies of the world ....

Well, well, call me?

[Common sense]

Yes ... the wars are new, but the questions are asked (and remain!) As before, the old ones and there is no end in sight.
Only in parades everything is beautiful. Well, or even all sorts of export or prototypes.
And what really exists in the troops is sheer pain and disappointment.

[Bayun]

Having a cheap "shooting stick" against "armor" begs the question, does it even make sense to invest in armor for vehicles? In defense of the fighter - yes, but that's another topic.

It looks like the future battlefield is for combat drones of all sorts and sizes. A swarm of "flying pistols" is capable of destroying a fortified area easier and faster than aircraft and tanks...

"Bronya" left the sea along with dreadnoughts, and will leave on land with tanks ...

[Clone]

The armor won't go away. Goals and objectives may change, but well-protected and mobile "artillery" will always be in demand. For the foreseeable period of history, of course.

[Puper driver]

Well, if the General Staff started talking about nanotechnologies in the field of protection, then they can go to the front line even without helmets.

[ramzay21]

The author is great as always. The answer is obvious. Putin, over the past 20 years, has formed a huge army of do-nothing and irresponsible opportunists sitting in high chairs.
To solve this huge problem, it is necessary to change the entire leadership of the country and introduce personal responsibility for the results of their decisions, and promote people who are able to quickly make competent decisions. In the meantime, there is and will not be anything but chatter, this chatter is supplemented only by miserable groans and calls to respected partners

[highlight]

And here the ugly USSR failed the Supreme, did not prepare additional reservations for the produced "galoshes", you have to wear it as it is.

[p0pulivox]

Of the latest experiments, one can note the “anti-Javelin visors”, which were recently widely installed on our tanks (and even sung by some popular print media). The fact that they are practically not observed on footage from the war zone recently suggests that their effectiveness has logically turned out to be far from expected.

What sane people have written about here more than once before the NWO ...

[Konnick]

A close analogue of the BPM-3 in terms of armor protection is the “almost mobilization tank of 41.” T-60. In mass armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles - armor protection does not even reach the level of the T-26 tank of the 30s.

You can’t keep up with fashion ... there were dirt roads, they began to intensively design shushlaiki with resistance to undermining, curly bottoms. Now asphalt, no land mines, but no assault tanks. We will put armor on transport .... What will be the next options, hang the Tigers with armor and turn them into front line armored vehicles?
The author writes sarcastically about the T-60 tank mod. 41st year.
And in Mariupol it would be a very popular tank. If there would be an engine not 70 hp. , and 170, mobility would be excellent, and the armor could be strengthened. Armament with a ShVAK automatic gun of 20 mm caliber and a rate of fire of 800 rpm. it’s quite suitable for anti-sniper combat, but you can make wire control 50 meters is quite enough, sit covered ... shoot ... Small dimensions, half as much as an infantry fighting vehicle, but the armor is much thicker, at least from heavy machine guns it will protect, but of course not from Javelin, there are problems for the T-90, which is a hundred times more expensive.
And the ISU-152 is just a terminator if you need to lay down a house.
The problem with many types of armored vehicles is that some hotheads used it for other purposes. The same BT-5,7 was sent to a frontal attack, and this tank could show itself well in ambushes and in raids on enemy rear lines. The SU-76 self-propelled gun was also used instead of tanks. Give the "stupid" a glass vegetable, he and ....

[eggplant01]

I don’t really understand armored vehicles, but I already understand the information war as a whole. I don’t understand why there are such articles during hostilities. Let's say criticism, including a proposal for a solution. But why pour dirt on the leadership now? Have you found time to "sharply ask" now? And to whom is this water for the mill? Debriefing must be done THEN! And now it is an undermining of the morale of the army and society in fact. I am against such public discussions in society. They should be resolved within the army while the special operation is going on, in my personal opinion.
I'm not talking about comments. Half of the comments are generally alarmist and only undermine morale. And the same thing, inflating internal hostility, blaming the Russian Defense Ministry for all the sins. Why and for whom? Particularly pleasing are those who extol the technique and training of our "neighbors"-enemies. And if they are so "technical" and "prepared", why do they have such huge losses, including in armored vehicles? And where and what battle did they win over ours with a clear advantage? Is there anything known for certain?
More or less balanced comments without howling "Our parquet generals from Afghanistan did nothing", "Shoigu plundered everything" - on the website of the unit. There are a couple of good ones, that the budget of the Russian Federation is not rubber, and that gratings for cumulative projectiles protect against one (and that’s not a fact), but they sharply worsen performance in another (for example, maneuverability, which is perhaps more important against ATGMs than gratings).
Then I really don’t like speculation on combat losses, which the Ministry of Defense “underestimates” like, with reference to the traditional OBS and, again, accusations of the leadership in the “death of our boys”. Whose mill is the water from the "military experts" from the sofas? Or maybe immediately post Ukrainian inform.kanaly what trifles? And immediately send out to all mothers and wives, how are their forces of psychological special operations doing? I don't understand why this is.

[Clone]

Quote: eggplant01

"military experts" from sofas

Actually, the majority of those present here, before taking their place "on the couch", have served for decades in the Armed Forces in a wide variety of positions and in various branches of the military and services. Those who are fighting now have no time to read such discussions ... but those who are responsible for the lives of the soldiers, the safety of equipment and weapons should hurry up with the elimination of the identified shortcomings, because the "debriefing" will be unequivocal. Both before the Victory and after it.

[petrakimov]

As far as I understand, the advantages and disadvantages identified during the hostilities are discussed here. And they are not aimed at promoting enemy technology or vilifying everything that is ours. There is a problem? There is. It is necessary to discuss and look for ways to solve them. Many, in particular me, want to understand some illogical misunderstandings. I don't have a technical background and these discussions give me insight into a lot of things. So to say "understanding - reassurance." When something is not clear, it is frightening and unnerving. Something like this. Maybe clumsily, but I tried to explain my opinion.

[Daverk]

correct article.
all the troubles from the fact that the supreme, apparently, does not really drag himself in such matters. and if I were the president, I would call the Minister of Defense to my place in the Kremlin, but I would finish it right! and everything would immediately become eaten.

[Boratsagdiev]

- Does it make sense to install dynamic protection (DZ) on lightly armored vehicles?
- That's a very difficult question

- and this concerns what is more important: the crew or equipment ?!
ps against "kuma" and ersatz screens can work, but you just need not to stick it tightly, but to spread it. It turns out that more to calm the nerves than for real protection.

[petrakimov]

It seems that our aircraft are trying to use junk in Ukraine to make it easier to write off. So after all, the lives of soldiers are "written off." Haven't thought about it or don't care? A lot of things were presented at exhibitions. And where is all this on the battlefield? Why is the T-90 not visible from its KAZ? Only old tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers. Not a single "Terminator" is visible. Although it would be right now to let him through the battles. It is strange that the support columns go without normal air cover, etc. The network is full of videos of our damaged, burned-out vehicles, infantry fighting vehicles, etc. Let most of the fakes, but there are really destroyed ones. And with them our dead soldiers. Incomprehensible kindness towards decision-making centers, logistics of Ukraine, etc. Is it really more important for our General Staffs to "save face" (like, the West will look askance at us and say "Fi!") than the lives of soldiers? Why is so little allocated for such a vast territory?
strength that you have to throw it back and forth like a fire brigade? Let off steam a little. Could be wrong. Sorry guys, if something is wrong...

[Servisinzhener]

If it doesn’t always help tanks from shelling in the forehead, then it won’t help trucks all the more. There was a video of a man driving past a Ukrainian T-64 tank while refueling, and a few seconds later something flew past him and hit the forehead of this tank. And after that there was another video of what was left of this tank - scrap metal scattered around the area. Yes, by some percentage. booking will reduce losses. But is it worth the effort?

In this conflict, the greatest losses would have been reduced not by the additional reservation of all equipment. And the planning of the operation based on the total banderization of the country and the clogging of any dissent. Promotion in all spheres of life of people with Nazi views. I wrote a lot earlier that it’s not worth counting on what will be at least like in 14. And even more so on bayonets to the ground. Based on the victory of the Maidan in 14, and therefore the occupation of all positions by Svidomites. And if they acted like that, the losses would be much less.

[Evgeny Seleznev]

The eternal misfortune of Russia is fools and roads. Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia, Syria have not taught anything. Additional booking for cardboard armor has long been needed and in demand in the world, and where our armored truck cabs of the battalion-regiment level rear, but still idiotic Kamaz in the war, there are no words. It is high time to move to the level of protection of Bradley and analogues, and most importantly about military transport. People are more expensive and this is the main value, unlike fools in big uniforms.

[Vadim237]

We need new equipment in the troops - with the ammo removed outside the habitable compartment with new reinforced armor and KAZ intercepting shells from all angles of fire. All these MTLB BTR 80A BMP 1.2 T 72 T 80 and T 90, which are used at the technological level 50 years ago, no matter how much they are modernized and weighed - for modern warfare, especially in urban conditions, they are easy targets, and the presence of ammunition with a crew significantly reduces the likelihood crew survival when hit by anti-tank weapons, which have become widespread and diverse over the past 20 years.

[agond]

In ancient times, shields were used to protect against arrows, which were held in the hand from the side of the enemy, if a hydraulic controlled manipulator was installed on the tracked vehicles, then it could hold the shield shield from the side of the intended attack, this would be much more effective than blocking the cage around the tank, by the way The armored personnel carrier has a tower on which it is quite convenient to install a similar manipulator with a screen. If the reaction speed of the system allows, then you can set up the shield immediately after detecting an incoming missile.

[Vadim237]

I see it more realistic to create a new combined light armor like titanium metal foam with the addition of ultra-porcelain spheres, which will be an effective solution against the effects of cumulative and sub-caliber projectiles than the usual solid armor, the introduction of KAZ and the removal of ammo from the habitable compartment.

[agond]

One does not interfere with the other, the substituted screen will cause a premature detonation of the shaped charge, and the metal foam armor with ceramic filler will stop the resulting fragments.

[Mstivoy]

Jokes aside, but everyone has already managed to quarrel among themselves, some blame the designers for malicious intent and weakening of the armor, others for the lack of money due to corruption in the country. Every "asshole" believes that his opinion is only the only true one.

[E B]

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE PARTICULARLY SMART TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU NEED TO KEEP PROTECTIVE KITS FOR ADDITIONAL BOOKING IN PEACETIME IN WAREHOUSES IN THE CASE OF DAY X, QUICKLY DELIVERY AND INTO BATTLE SHAME FOR OUR AUTHORITIES THINK THAT ARMORED VEHICLES ONLY PARTICIPATE IN PARADES AND MANEUVERS

[Hyper_X]

and in our country KAMAZ trucks are not blown up by mines ...
And there are a lot of them, unlike ..hooded ..trucks ....
Where is the Urals???

[Valery K.]

I look at the comments on this article and a certain conclusion suggests itself. After 40 years, measures to protect military vehicles and vehicles from being hit by enemy fire have not been taken to implementation. Limited to prototypes and works commissioned by foreign partners. Now it makes no sense to look at yesterday, but we really need to take measures to protect the equipment and personnel that we have. In particular, in social groups there are initiative groups of citizens who, at their own expense and donations, collect additional protection for equipment, not counting the purchase of UAVs, bulletproof vests, thermal imagers and other things.
At the beginning of the 10s, I met an article about a nearly 10-fold decrease in the order for aramid fiber materials from domestic manufacturers, which did not fit in with the mass production of new weapons and military equipment presented by the press ..... So here is my proposal, which prevents the organization of production hinged removable protection based on Kevlar on the same equipment transporting fuels and lubricants, ammunition, l / s .... we went through that stage of armor on the doors of cars and already logs and sewer manholes on the hood .... even if in the anti-fragmentation version it’s already something then. It’s not even worth building factories here, but simply placing orders for enterprises with sewing equipment .... and adding plates to this in general, a song, even if it gives protection by 20-50 percent, it won’t save you from a direct hit, but it’s completely nearby.

[Russian Patriot]

At the Army-2019 forum, Sergey Abdulov, chief designer of the Special Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering JSC, said that “BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles, already delivered and planned for delivery to the Russian army, will soon receive additional protection in the form of anti-cumulative grids and steel screens to protect against RPG shots.

I am sure that Comrade Chief Designer is not involved in the lack of protection for our equipment. The whole point, as usual, is in effective managers and generals from the MO offices.
Find the guilty and severely punish.