Military Review

Will there be a new AK?

497
Probably not the only one I am waiting for the launch into mass production and at least the minimum distribution of the new machine. Recently, however, news "from the front" has not been observed, and, in addition, many print publications, whose circulation is not counted at all by the tens of thousands (for example, such an edition as "The Lie of Capitalist Disorder of Pensioners"), begin to say that and it will not be at all, and that the current models simply undergo modernization by installing on them mounting straps like "picatinny". As usual in such situations, the authors of such articles refer to anonymous sources: the officer who “saw”, the special forces soldier who “felt”. I will try to dig deeper in this matter and at least find out what exactly is the basis for such articles, just ask the dump truck not to call.

I want to note right away that I am not the so-called patriotic patriot, but the “decaying” west will not wait from me, I just think that in matters of armament even a little exaggerate the possibilities weaponsthat is, with a purpose, to develop patriotism in people's minds is a crime.

In this question there should be bare facts, which let it be better to be a little worse than the reality, the better. Then financing, perhaps, bold ideas of designers will not be buried in archives, but at least they will be implemented in prototypes, and there, collecting all the best, and not far from the series. And so it turns out that everything is fine with us, and since everything is fine, then why develop something? In general, my position is as follows: even if by all types of weapons “ahead of the rest of the planet”, then it is by no means impossible to stop, and the weapon development process should be constantly stimulated, somewhere with a premium, and somewhere with a weighty kick under fifth point. But back to the main topic of the article.



From the very beginning, as the AK with the digital designation 12 appeared in the hands of Rogozin, it was clear that all the noise around this weapon was clearly superfluous and was created solely for political reasons. Despite all the cheerful talk that the army should be re-armed, and it should be done immediately and as quickly as possible, the wagon did not move from its place, since even the loudest words cannot bear with a piece of money called money, which is very much needed for complete re-equipment . Nevertheless, the weapon was shown, and even the current sample seemed to be there, it remains only to process it with a file and into the series, gradually, step by step, even if it were possible to replace completely old samples during 5 years. That, apparently, is planned to be done, but, most likely, unforeseen problems arose, as always, which prevented the process from starting. But people are worried, weapons showed, they talked a lot and were abruptly silenced, there is no certainty, which is what journalists use when making sensational articles. Well, oh well, maybe they are not to blame, maybe the editor said “it is necessary!”, But not to lose a person of work because of some kind of conscience and self-esteem.

The most common method of creating a “sensation” is to pull words out of context and insert them in the form of quotations already with the author’s comments, and you don’t find fault. The second technique, supplementing the first, is a reference to an anonymous, but very knowledgeable and trusted source. These two tricks of the "successful" journalist were used in this case. At first, information appeared from an unknown fighter of a special unit, who, in view of the lack of normal weapons for service, bought! Attention! in a hunting store. In the same place, as it turned out, they buy weapons and faces that are all bad, in the mountains and hiding in the forests, in general, nonsense. But some moments in this “interview” were still true, for example, such as a lack of normal equipment. It was also noteworthy that such a “bad” domestic weapon, in one of the answers to the question asked, suddenly became completely satisfactory in everything except the absence of the possibility of installing additional devices. In general, there were glimpses of light in this interview, and it is even possible that it was really real, but it was subjected to such proofs that the meaning was distorted and the answers to the asked questions became very contradictory. But this was the only way for the seed, everything went much more interesting further, but I would like to deviate a little from the topic and express my opinion about the compliance of the current weapon with modern standards and requirements.

No one will argue that the most discussed topic in the field of domestic firearms is the topic of replacing AK74 and its variants with something radically new. Someone, nodding at foreign models, speaks about the superiority of the younger weapon in the combat characteristics, someone says that the weapon is simply morally obsolete, and it is embarrassing to hold it in service, and someone, on the contrary, says that These machines are the best of the best, and they have no analogues. My point of view on this issue is somewhat twofold, but I think I can express it, having fully argued. For whom was originally created a Kalashnikov assault rifle? That's right, the weapons were created, literally, for the people, so that even the person who holds them for the first time in their lives did not experience difficulties in maintaining the weapons and their exploitation. And this means that such a mass sample should be as simple as possible in construction and as unpretentious as possible, which we managed to combine in one model. But if everything is so good in this weapon, then where is the desire to replace it? And this desire arises due to the fact that, due to its age, this model is not adapted to be compatible with various modern devices that gradually fall into the military environment. But not everyone should use the same collimator sight, so why replace the weapon completely? Give people only what they really need and in no case dispose of, do not sell the old images with which many have served, which have been studied far and wide, let them lie just in case. Maybe modern AK foreign automaton loses in its characteristics, but for universal weapons, in the event of which it is better not to find a weapon. Even if the desire to play with new toys will be so great that AK74 will be completely replaced, in no case can we exclude from the program of its thorough study, even if not in the form of the main weapon. But at the same time, many AK really no longer fit, so that it will still have to partially replace it, whatever one may say. In general, here is a lyrical digression, we come back to the topic of conversation.

Will there be a new AK?


As already noted above, one of the problems of AK74 and its modifications, so to speak, is that the weapon does not have the ability to install modern additional devices, and since the new model is delayed and the people demand at least some gestures, it was accepted A relatively adequate solution is to adapt AKs already in service. It was after such a proposal that Rogozin began ... Remembering that the Ministry of Defense refused to purchase old Kalashnikov assault rifles, the army began to be presented almost unarmed at all, questioned the appropriateness of such an adaptation in general, specialists appeared saying that the weapon would completely change its characteristics the worst side, they remembered the price of the question ... But, roughly speaking, the whole adaptation consists in installing mounting strips of the “picatinny” type. At the same time, Rogozin proposed two adaptation options with 3 fastening straps and seven, if the first option can be performed independently in part, then the second one requires more in-depth intervention. Honestly, I personally am against hanging arms with fastening straps from all sides, but once they decided to supply additional devices to the army, people need to learn to handle and work with them, well, since there is nothing to do with it, then this option will do. It looks more strange that the prices for adaptation were published. So for some reason, the numbers are thoughtlessly reprinted by one edition of another and say that the upgrade in the first version will cost 2000 rubles for the 1 machine, the second is already 10000 thousand rubles. Something tells me that these figures are taken from the ceiling, or it is planned not just to install the mounting strips, but a complete rework from AK74 to some kind of laser rifle or plasma gun, at the worst in AK12. It is clear that it is impossible to simply put or fasten the fastening strap on the glue, but the prices are really very high.

In general, everything is so uneasy here and on paper, which can endure everything, and in life. But after reading everything that was written on this subject, I still found some positive moments. First, modern supplementary devices will appear in the army to facilitate work with weapons. Secondly, the weapon itself will be able to use these devices, even if it is in the form of such a temporary option. Once again, I am convinced that the national press is the most impartial, informative and accurate, and it also makes people think, draw conclusions, analyze information. Maybe this is the whole point? Our newspapers develop the population, while in other countries they simply give ready-made information that you only need to read and perceive as is. Maybe all the same in vain we swear at them for distorting the facts, tearing the words of people out of context, completely changing the meaning of what was said, and sometimes they just lie? Suddenly, they are well-meaning ...
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  1. itr
    itr 25 September 2012 08: 30
    +21
    From the very beginning, as an AK with a digital designation 12 appeared in the hands of Rogozin, it was clear that all the noise around this weapon was clearly superfluous and created solely for political reasons.Judging by the photograph, Rogozin took up arms in his first hands in his life. An interesting trend in our country, a person does not have any relation to the armed forces, and right away the minister or some other hell
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 25 September 2012 10: 02
      +7
      The eyes too hurt.
      I support the author. AK is the base, and any student should be able to handle it, but two thoughts have crept in or even doubt: modernization will invariably lead to more complex construction and, as a result, will affect reliability if this masterpiece will not lose its main quality, because the love of the people for this machine indeed, due to its reliability, the second: to each, according to their own needs, a separate automatic machine can bring matters to the point that individual units will order their own automatic machines (just kidding, of course, but I think they understood the point).
      And the fact that it cannot be disposed of is unambiguous, take me, I only know how to handle a "Kalash", and my friends are the same, so the bell will ring - a Kalash in the mouth and run ...
      1. Maks111
        Maks111 25 September 2012 10: 31
        +17
        Here, what kind of people do we have? They don’t like to develop weapons, they don’t like it, they do not like to develop again. Since you are all such venerable designers and engineers here, take it yourself and come up with it. Wise guys are bad.
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov 25 September 2012 11: 46
          +5
          And where I said that it is not necessary to develop new weapons, I spoke about the AK and wrote that at least for the reservists there was no replacement for the AK! It is a fact! For specialists it is necessary to develop separately, for that they are special! But please 74 to me, I don’t know how to handle another ... I don’t climb into the developers and constructor of weapons because I’m busy with others. Expressed his opinion, isn’t this the comment? And associations are superfluous ...
        2. zadotov
          zadotov 1 October 2012 14: 09
          +1
          everyone does their own thing, they’re not self-taught like Kalashnikov — they studied for a long time then went up the career ladder and thought about further cutting the ak-47 — no, gentlemen, the designers waited for this day — when you need to start moving your brains — they still cling to the old concept and none there is enough courage-mind and strength to cast aside and start from scratch — the gut is thin for this in Russia we need a left-handed kulibin breaking through the quagmire captured in this picture because the teams of brave like-minded scientists and designers have sunk into oblivion at the end of the 60s and how Russia will feverishly lag behind in all areas as long as there is a vast territory along which the force is armed with the latest weapons and our troops heroically restrain it with toothpicks giving their blood to the wise men who they now drink in their rotten discussions
      2. stariy
        stariy 25 September 2012 10: 43
        +1
        The article is good, well, that's what I thought. To make a new machine you probably need to start with a cartridge of 7,62 heavy 5, 45 is not quite stable. Well, developments under 5.45 will still be AK47 variations. I think so.
        1. Odessa
          Odessa 25 September 2012 19: 15
          0
          stariy,
          The article is good, well, that's what I thought. To make a new machine you probably need to start with a cartridge of 7,62 heavy 5, 45 is not quite stable. Well, developments under 5.45 will still be AK47 variations. I think so.

          Trying to fit the NATO standard, I would not fundamentally do this.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 25 September 2012 20: 19
            +1
            Not necessarily NATO. But, for example, the same 5.56 is constantly being developed. Now it seems like a new modification of the m855 should go
            1. Mr. Truth
              Mr. Truth 25 September 2012 20: 45
              0
              Quote: Pimply
              Now it seems like a new modification of the m855 should go

              already the 2nd generation m855a1. the first was with a bismuth bottom, the second with copper. the pressure was raised, the speed was raised. The answer to the Chinese is 5,8x42 with a new bullet.
              Funny, the Americans and the Chinese widely advertise their new ammunition, while ours, according to the old tradition, hide everything.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 25 September 2012 21: 02
                +6
                Yeah. And in parallel they release videos on the Star "ak against M16", where they take an ancient or unknown machine gun, and use it with hunting cartridges 8)) Ah, Ak broke through a piece of iron, ha-ha, M4 could not do that. 8)))))
                It is not surprising, by the way, that under such a policy, 5.45 remained the caliber for the USSR.
                1. insomnia
                  insomnia 25 September 2012 23: 11
                  0
                  Just hammer it on these videos, you yourself know that this is solid PR (and dick * wow)
                2. Mr. Truth
                  Mr. Truth 26 September 2012 00: 24
                  +1
                  M855 and 7n6vk are identical, under equal conditions. 5,56 has no advantages other than + 10% accuracy due to design features. and 5,45 has no advantages over 5,56 other than -10% recoil momentum. Both cartridges are created according to the stupid concept and for 20 years they have not stood up to criticism.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 40
                    +1
                    I do not agree. By the stupidity of the concept - and by no criticism. Good cartridges, especially the latest 5.56 versions - I know less about Russian. Yes, and on 5.45 compared to the same 7.62 there are more good reviews. Another thing is that yes, the replacement is overdue
                  2. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 26 September 2012 01: 29
                    +3
                    Quote: Mr. Truth
                    Both cartridges are created according to the stupid concept and for 20 years they have not stood up to criticism.


                    In the Soviet Union, the expediency of switching a hand-held automatic weapon to a smaller caliber than the existing 7,62 mm was scientifically grounded by V. G. Fedorov already in 1939, when he wrote that the range of a direct shot of an “intermediate” cartridge should be no less than that of a standard rifle cartridge. To reduce the mass-dimensional characteristics of the cartridges, he proposed to reduce their caliber to 6 – 6,25 mm. Back in 1945, V. G. Fedorov in his work “Study of further ways to improve the effectiveness of small arms firing” proved that the development of automatic small arms would be most promising if it developed towards a decrease in the caliber of cartridges. However, the official line pursued at that time by the leadership of the USSR People's Commissariat of Armaments and the Main Artillery Directorate of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense, aimed at working out a set of small arms designed to use an 7,62-mm "intermediate" cartridge, did not take into account the conclusions of Fedorov. Along with subjective factors, this was also due to objective reasons - in the Soviet Union in the middle of the 1940-ies there was no technical and technological base for manufacturing small-caliber ammunition cartridges, and the weapons themselves.
              2. insomnia
                insomnia 25 September 2012 23: 08
                +2
                Yes exactly. We will not move away from the habit of secreting from scratch. Now you google something like "new Russian patrons" and it will give you millions of links.
                The whole world has long been living according to the laws of the market, where a cartridge (well-advertised) is a hot commodity, while ours all pull their old bagpipes.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 27
                  +1
                  So this is the point. Crap after all
                2. iulai
                  iulai 1 October 2012 17: 27
                  0
                  we have a lot of people feed on the protection of necessary and unnecessary secrets, that’s why they secret everything that wouldn’t stay without work.
        2. dustycat
          dustycat 26 June 2013 15: 13
          0
          Fedorovsky cartridge Nuzhon.
          Stop chasing the west already.
          The West is making weapons to cut down money, and in Russia, weapons were being made to let a soldier fight.
          So it was with a three-ruler, a Fedorov machine gun, PPSh, PPS, AK.
          In order for Kalashnikov to succeed, try to repeat someone's foreign model?
          Correct AK74 5,45.
          And what prevented 6mm from doing?
          The desire of the generals - "here they have it and we want the same! Well, what will come of it? WE WANT!"
      3. datur
        datur 25 September 2012 12: 26
        +1
        klimpopov, it would be logical, as used and almost used up their resources to write off !!
        1. scrabler
          25 September 2012 12: 28
          +2
          Or, as they say now, "deactivate" and send them to schools for compulsory study, or you can leave them in the army as educational material. Even an assault rifle that can no longer shoot can still serve for many years as a visual training aid for weapon maintenance.
          1. Konrad
            Konrad 25 September 2012 18: 41
            0
            Quote: scrabler
            can be left in the form of training material and in the army.

            We had AKM, but there were 2 AK 47s in the company, they were called training. It is not harmful for a soldier to know more weapons, useful.
            1. cobra66
              cobra66 27 September 2012 11: 58
              0
              Ak 47 couldn’t be in your company since it’s a pre-production machine, a machine called AK
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 27 September 2012 12: 35
                0
                Leave this garbage. Ak 56-A-212 has long been called AK-47, so as not to be confused, and this is a commonly used name for a long time
          2. Region-25.rus
            Region-25.rus 1 October 2012 09: 38
            0
            Quote: scrabler
            It can still serve for many years as a visual training tool for servicing weapons.


            Exactly! In the distant 80s, at the NVP lessons (initial military training) there was such a subject who does not know AKMs we shared the old ones far and wide, and for a while, and blindfolded ....)) At the urgent already AK-74 was but hammered even at school it was very useful!
        2. klimpopov
          klimpopov 25 September 2012 15: 08
          0
          Yes, you can always find application if the owner is ...
          1. scrabler
            25 September 2012 16: 57
            +3
            That's just the problem, that the owners have more than enough and everyone manages as a piss in the head will hit.
      4. Mr77Bear
        Mr77Bear 25 September 2012 15: 05
        0
        It will not be reflected. They tested both in water and in cold. Works with a bang.
      5. AIvanA
        AIvanA 25 September 2012 17: 08
        +1
        Yes, everything is so, but the most annoying thing is that the old Kalash also began to be destroyed, but the current Minister of Defense surpassed all democratic predecessors in adherence to "democracy".
    2. Maks111
      Maks111 25 September 2012 10: 29
      +3
      And they were silent about the AK-12 because still there are his trials, about which they warned.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECFG-uuStZY
    3. GP
      GP 25 September 2012 11: 59
      +5
      Quote: itr
      Judging by the photograph, Rogozin took up arms in his first hands in his life. An interesting trend in our country, a person does not have any relation to the armed forces, and right away the minister or some other hell


      Rogozin did not serve in the army, and it may very well be that the machine gun holds for the first time in his life.
      Would read information about a person, even from the wiki, a lot of it.
      From the same wiki
      _________
      Dmitry Rogozin speaks English, Spanish, Italian, French, Czech and Ukrainian. He is a doctor of philosophical sciences. In 1996, at the Faculty of Philosophy of Moscow State University, he defended a dissertation on the topic “The Russian Question and its Impact on National and International Security” for the degree of candidate of philosophical sciences. In 1999, he defended his doctoral dissertation on the topic "Problems of National Security of Russia at the Turn of the 1998st Century." The direction of scientific activity is the planning of scientific and technological policy in accordance with the evolution of threats to national security. In 1999-XNUMX taught a special course on national security to students of the Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. He is one of the leading developers of military-political and military-technical terminology in the country.

      In March 1993, on the basis of Russian communities of the CIS countries and the Baltic states, as well as national-state autonomies within Russia, he created and led the national-patriotic movement Congress of Russian Communities (KRO). It included almost all Russian fraternities, communities, socio-political organizations and centers of national autonomies within the Russian Federation, the former Soviet republics and some foreign countries. In subsequent years, he was actively involved in protecting the rights of compatriots in the Baltic states, Yugoslavia, the CIS countries, participated in the release of several dozen hostages in Chechnya, took an active part in the work of the headquarters for the release of hostages in the theater on Dubrovka (2002) and school No. 1 in Beslan ( 2004).
      _______
      He entered politics in the wake of patriotic and nationalist organizations. A professional biography politician is obtained.
      1. itr
        itr 25 September 2012 14: 34
        -9
        BESlan ??? Dubrovka ???? Yes, I absolutely did not recognize him for a long time
        Doctor of Philosophy. E can every cook control
        to be a country !!!!!!!!!!!!!
        1. Su24
          Su24 26 September 2012 23: 58
          0
          This you can not))
      2. Konrad
        Konrad 25 September 2012 18: 46
        +4
        GP, with your permission I’ll add: -Born December 21, 1963 in Moscow in the family of a military scientist.
        Father - Oleg Konstantinovich Rogozin, Lieutenant General, Professor, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Hero of Socialist Labor. Prior to his retirement and retirement, he served as head of the department for advanced weapons systems and first deputy head of the Arms Service of the USSR Ministry of Defense.
        1. itr
          itr 25 September 2012 19: 34
          -4
          Well, father and not son
    4. mongoose
      mongoose 25 September 2012 12: 56
      +1
      in vain, you are so, there are basically complaints against journalists and other political scientists who will make a scandal out of any news and explain to the country why this is bad (and often directly opposite events)
    5. Joker
      Joker 25 September 2012 13: 09
      +13
      An article about everything and about anything to be honest. Personally, I have such an opinion, it’s certainly better to have a plank than not to have one, but the author, I don’t know if I intentionally, didn’t touch on the main difference between the AK-12: a new barrel, a trigger mechanism, a variable rate of fire, a new bolt group design and all this together increases the accuracy of the weapon and reduces its return, because of this they need to change the AK-74, and the secondary bars and accuracy with firing accuracy are the main drawback of the entire AK series as a whole, the special bars are only needed, an ordinary fighter only needs dirt collect on them because in Asha collimator army soldiers only see in the picture, well, another show-off their outstanding Soviet collimator, which is both in size and shape over a microscope to look like. The realities of the battle are already completely different, and I personally exchanged a small part of the AK’s reliability to increase accuracy, because the adversary would not allow us to rise from behind cover and run into their direction as WWII shouted, and AK was created for such a battle. AK-12 needs to be urgently purchased in the army in large quantities, and AK-74 canned for the people, I have this opinion. By the way, for the M4-M16, there are widely available kits for internal tuning, which allows you to improve the reliability of the machine, the reliability is certainly not like that of the AK, but it is enough, it is subscribed to the u-tube on the marine channel, it uploads a video somewhere 2 a week somewhere from the helmet-mounted camera, for all the time there was not a single delay when firing from the M-4, although the machine is constantly in the sand and dust and I also want to say, these devils drag the infantry mortar and grenade launchers with them on the company of soldiers, everyone has grenades, they are each just stupidly hiding somewhere and always the enemy is being destroyed about this from far away, so we need AK-12 because it is increased accuracy and reduced recoil, just what the Kalashnikov assault rifle needs, and Mikhail Timofeevich really liked the assault rifle, said that they went in the right direction, like this that. And these strips for modernization, let them shove yourself in one place, just waste the money, first buy collimators, and then hang the brackets, everything through one place with us as usual.
      1. scrabler
        25 September 2012 13: 24
        0
        AK12 did not touch for the simple reason that it is still unknown what the final result and weapon option will be, so it’s too early to make a full review of the weapon. It’s better that the information was accurate, but later than half the time it consisted of fantasies and unverified rumors, right? wink And can I link in a personal to the channel, very interested.
        1. Joker
          Joker 25 September 2012 13: 36
          +5
          Well, there are preliminary data from the designers, in addition, comments from the testers speak for themselves.
          1. SeregaKep
            SeregaKep 25 September 2012 19: 29
            +4
            always fooled with zhurnalyug!
            video about AK 12, and for the 16th second of the video in the frame, for some reason AK 107 (the one with balanced automation)
            Yes, and in the photo in the hands of Rogozin never AK 12, but also something more similar to the 107th lol
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 25 September 2012 20: 22
              0
              There are a lot of fun moments. Most of all I trudged from this video Ak vs M16. Watched - sobbed
      2. Konrad
        Konrad 25 September 2012 18: 57
        +2
        [quote = Joker] well, even at the show, they are given a Soviet collimator,
        Collimator, that's cool! And we remember shooting with a "night sight". These are two nozzles, for the front sight and the bar. there is a luminous point on each (light composition and no electronics). Since from antiquity they themselves no longer glowed, you had to first "fire up" a flashlight and then you could shoot at a target with a flashing light. And nothing happened that way, they got hit.
      3. Basarev
        Basarev 25 December 2013 11: 02
        0
        It is better not to buy collimators, but to produce them. You give a completely domestic collimator!
    6. rumpeljschtizhen
      rumpeljschtizhen 25 September 2012 19: 56
      0
      I agree completely ... he grabbed the machine as a neadertal
      1. not good
        not good 25 September 2012 22: 13
        +3
        Lord! You never know which one grabs you and how. Rogozin is not at the drill, but simply examines the machine gun, took it as convenient as possible, held it down. Here you are bewitched lol
        1. rumpeljschtizhen
          rumpeljschtizhen 25 September 2012 22: 54
          0
          not good so people hold weapons who do not know what to do with it or, rather, do not know the practical value to it. generally not him to judge the merits and demerits of this machine
    7. Director
      Director 26 September 2012 11: 30
      +1
      In my opinion, in the photo at Rogozin, it’s not the AK-12 but the AK-108, but that’s not the point. Give specialists what they need but to throw out the PEOPLE automatic machine is unforgivable stupidity.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 26 September 2012 15: 32
        0
        Yes, right. Fuse
    8. Su24
      Su24 26 September 2012 23: 52
      0
      Your untruth - Rogozin has been dealing with national security and military-technical issues for a very long time.

      (From the wiki)
      "In 1996, at the Faculty of Philosophy of Moscow State University, he defended his dissertation on the topic" The Russian question and its impact on national and international security "for the degree of candidate of philosophical sciences. In 1999, he also defended his doctoral dissertation on the topic" Problems of Russia's national security at the turn of the XXI century. "The direction of scientific activity is planning scientific and technical policy in accordance with the evolution of threats to national security. In 1998-1999 he read a special course on national security for students of the Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. Is one of the country's leading developers of military-political and military technical terminology. "
    9. Konrad
      Konrad 27 September 2012 07: 20
      0
      Quote: itr
      Judging by the photograph, Rogozin took up arms in his first hands in his life

      Have you ever held Kalash in your hands with an extra handle? Me not. He also tries, as seen in the picture. Why laugh at once?
    10. Hon
      Hon 28 September 2012 13: 03
      +1
      Rogozin is the son of a general, his father, of course, is not a military general, but a military scientist, but he clearly held weapons in his hands.
  2. Sasha 19871987
    Sasha 19871987 25 September 2012 08: 35
    +4
    excellent article .... well done author, the way of writing is very very very good .... very sound thoughts of a healthy person ....
  3. Fox
    Fox 25 September 2012 08: 46
    +18
    a similar case: a shooting instructor came to us. a foreigner. in the 90s it was fashionable. about the weapon he told ... our fighters nod with their manes, insert foreign words ... lepota, in general ... a conversation came over for the PM, like, the gun sucks , curve, etc., the instructor asked to shoot with PMa ... went to the shooting range ... in short, our fighters were really disgraced, showing HOW to shoot with PM ... the conclusion is simple: learn the materiel.! study the weapons entrusted, its strengths. try to SHOOT, not to hang around with pribluds on picatini and other garbage.
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 25 September 2012 09: 10
      +9
      I agree, instead of engaging ..., okay, we won’t clarify, it’s better for the soldiers to give out more ammunition for firing, anyway they will go out in warehouses ...
      The constant practice of shooting will be much more useful than any tzatsek yes biryulek ...
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 25 September 2012 14: 35
        +2
        it’s better until the soldiers give more ammunition for firing, anyway they go out in warehouses ...
        Ammo issued normally. There are problems with the disposal of ammunition and the reluctance of officers to conduct a lesson in the OP.
        1. Suvorov000
          Suvorov000 26 September 2012 14: 10
          +1
          Gyyyy is a similar bullshit, three times we came to the warehouses for cartridges for Yarygin, we were like: "but no")))) we come back, we: "like no, they said there is," and so on two more times)))
  4. Jeka
    Jeka 25 September 2012 08: 52
    0
    The first photo looks like an AK-107
    [img] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AK-107_with_grenade_launcher.jpg?use
    lang = ru [/ img]
    improved version of 2011. The new AK-107 assault rifle features a new receiver cover with an integrated Picatinny rail for quick and easy installation of optical sights. An adjustable diopter sight is installed in the back of the receiver, replacing the traditional rear sight for Kalashnikovs with a U-shaped slot.
  5. Trailer
    Trailer 25 September 2012 10: 21
    -8
    Was it embarrassing for me alone that in the photo where the new AK and sniper rifle are lying, does AK really resemble the American M-16 modern in size?
    1. Gurza
      Gurza 25 September 2012 10: 43
      +1
      What is there to be embarrassed about? If our designers achieve a reduction in the size of the AK without losing performance, then there is nothing wrong with that. And he looks like only because the butt is new and there are picatinny bars
    2. cobra66
      cobra66 25 September 2012 11: 01
      +3
      Sorry, but the picture is not M-16, but H&K 416
      1. Gurza
        Gurza 25 September 2012 11: 04
        -1
        Kobra66 for sure. But damn it is no difference in principle. For me, nothing revolutionary was done either here or there. All Ak and M are just upgrades but not a new leap.
        1. cobra66
          cobra66 25 September 2012 11: 19
          +3
          The difference between the M-16a4 and Hk 416, at least in principle, is that the M-series has the removal of powder gases and the butterfly valve, while the Germans have the removal of powder gases and locking with 7 stops, and amers have long been looking for a replacement for the M-series
          1. Gurza
            Gurza 25 September 2012 11: 22
            -1
            Sechtno did not look at the working principles of M-4 and NK416, now I will know =). And at the expense of replacement =) they usually change to AK =) here in Iraq and with the PCA run. By the way, in general, if you upgrade PPSh it can be very interesting.
            1. cobra66
              cobra66 25 September 2012 11: 25
              +2
              PPSh is heavy, but the machine is slaughter again and the store, but still the class is not that submachine gun, but here it’s still an assault. rifles
            2. Joker
              Joker 25 September 2012 13: 52
              0
              Where did you see the Americans running with AK? Change the M series either on the NK 416-417 or REC 7 or on the FN Scar, do you know about the interchangeability of stores? + besides picked up AK look for shops and ammunition from the Taliban.
              1. Gurza
                Gurza 25 September 2012 14: 35
                +1
                Joker there are a lot of pictures. There is a photo where Autralian specialists go with AK, do not shun.
                1. Joker
                  Joker 25 September 2012 14: 41
                  +1
                  I saw a lot of videos, but Americans from AK just shoot for training, using AK in military operations in the US Army is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN! Here it is.
                2. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 15: 10
                  +1
                  There are photos where soldiers pose for pictures home
              2. Pimply
                Pimply 25 September 2012 15: 09
                +1
                They do not change the M-series, upgrade it
              3. Old skeptic
                Old skeptic 25 September 2012 18: 40
                +2
                I met here in one blog the phrase "Israeli modification of the M-16". I wondered what the Israelis had modified in it.
                Do not believe it - her trunk is cut off!
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 20: 23
                  +1
                  Not just cropped. And so - very thoroughly 8)
            3. leon-iv
              leon-iv 25 September 2012 14: 38
              0
              they usually change to AK =)
              These are fairy tales
              Iraq and the PCA run.
              And donkey ride
              By the way, in general, if you upgrade PPSh it can be very interesting.
              And the meaning of a free shutter is in any PP
              Heavy no pistol grip
              High rate of fire.
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 25 September 2012 21: 46
                +2
                Quote: leon-iv
                Iraq and the PCA run.
                And donkey ride



                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 21: 57
                  +2
                  Can’t you say that he regularly hangs on his side? 8) This is all fun. Like this one.



                  Well, in the pictures below - the Marines in Fallujah in 2004, among other things, found this PCA
                  1. Novosibirsky
                    Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 22: 08
                    +2
                    But what, nishtyak fulfilled an old PPSh.)) Now he would have done a great job for police purposes, under the 9th caliber. Instead of MP-5. To cultivate it, and only on the way, short, rapid-fire, the police distance. The target convincingly battered.))
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 16
                      +1
                      Good evening PPSh caliber 7.62 under the paitron TT 7.62 * 25
                      1. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 22: 26
                        0
                        Kind. hi Yes, I understand, I’m saying that, whether under the 9th cartridge, it fit perfectly for police purposes.
                      2. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 29
                        0
                        Yes, and with 7.62 you can do things.
                      3. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 22: 51
                        0
                        Duc that's just the point, what to do "affairs". )) Powerful cartridge, bullet ricochets, civilian clings. And it has not been in service for a long time. She is not on the staff.
                        9th caliber, soft, dumb-nosed - that’s it))
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 01
                        0
                        Yes, it’s not like ricocheting, as a rule it breaks through. Redundancy.
                      5. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 04
                        -1
                        Like Kurtz’s 9 * 17? I doubt it, and this cartridge is more comfortable, weak recoil.
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 30
                        +1
                        I'm talking about 7.62. 9mm just all sorts of guys working in buildings zelo love. For Tavor, by the way, they made a convector under 9mm. Changing the barrel, bolt group, store receiver - in just a few minutes
                    2. bunta
                      bunta 26 September 2012 01: 47
                      0
                      The Germans in the Second World War officially had in service the trophy PPSh. And besides, they were reassigned to 9 mm Parabellum!
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 01: 57
                        +1
                        Does anyone argue that PPSh is a bad trunk?
                  2. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr 25 September 2012 22: 09
                    0
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Well, in the pictures below - the Marines in Fallujah in 2004, among other things, found this PCA

                    In the photo, the PPSh fighter does not pose in front of the camera, but obviously uses it for its intended purpose.
                    One out of two:
                    or he knows exactly what kind of weapon in his hands,
                    or went into battle without knowing what.
                    Which option do you like more?
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 26
                      +2
                      Yeah. On the picture. They did not ask themselves why the photo was exactly two, and both from the same staircase. November 23, 2004 in Fallujah, Iraq. One person, with a difference of two minutes. And that’s all. I recommend to think.





                      And do not take such photos for the fact of using weapons for military purposes.
                    2. Su24
                      Su24 27 September 2012 00: 20
                      +1
                      He just ponte with outlandish trophy weapons.
                2. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 26 September 2012 00: 21
                  +1
                  Lost photo, I repeat:


    3. PSih2097
      PSih2097 25 September 2012 16: 19
      +3
      where the new AK and sniper rifle lie

      this is not a sniper, but a small biathlon "Record"
    4. iSpoiler
      iSpoiler 26 September 2012 18: 38
      +2
      Here is m16, and you have some heresy ..

  6. bunta
    bunta 25 September 2012 10: 27
    +1
    It seems that Rogozin is as foolish as Serdyukov. The minister brought the collapse of the army and the military-industrial complex to its logical end. In a state of complete atas, Rogozin is appointed, but in addition to patriotism, which Rogozin has a little more than Serdyukov, professionalism is also needed. Of which Rogozin has the same amount of humor as Petrosyan.
    1. Gurza
      Gurza 25 September 2012 10: 54
      0
      Argument.
      1. bunta
        bunta 25 September 2012 12: 20
        +1
        Quote: GurZa
        Argument.


        To do this, you need to have an idea of ​​the system for the development and production of military equipment destroyed by Putin's camarilla. Clear, intelligible, scientifically based requirements for new weapons should be developed, if needed. Until now, this was done by the customer - the Ministry of Defense with its powerful scientific ("Shot" courses) and reconnaissance apparatus. After the development of requirements, a competition is announced, tests are carried out ... And in relation to AK and SVD, we hear only "obsolescence" and nothing more intelligible. This is some kind of a coven of amateurs.
        1. mongoose
          mongoose 25 September 2012 13: 00
          0
          what big words- Putin's camarilla!
          you see "family" to your liking! By the way, let me ask you what you have to do with weapons? in particular to its production? Are you miraculously out of grau?
          1. bunta
            bunta 25 September 2012 13: 59
            +3
            Specialty - automatic weapons. He began his career as an engineer for military acceptance. Any questions?
            1. leon-iv
              leon-iv 25 September 2012 14: 52
              +1
              Any questions?
              Yes, there is how you assess the need for a shutter lag on the machine.
              And what are the advantages of Grendels compared to the gap?
              1. bunta
                bunta 25 September 2012 16: 53
                +9
                Quote: leon-iv
                the need for shutter lag on the machine.

                It all depends on the implementation. If in the classical form to do it on AK, this is not good since everything is open inside. There is a need for some kind of curtains. And this is an additional detail. Now watch the cycle carefully. The cartridges ran out and the shutter lagged. A fighter withdraws weapons from the firing line, holds the machine gun by the fore-end, with a second hand changes the store, and what's next. In the first case, the hand from the store habitually moves to the shutter handle because it is nearby (for the AK-12 it is shifted significantly forward!) And reloads. That is, it takes the shutter back, releases it, and his hand already habitually lays on the handle. While the bolt moves forward the weapon of a less experienced fighter is already on the line of fire. It remains to make a small correction in aiming and press the trigger.
                If there is a shutter lag, there are two options. The first - pistol - the presence of a flag in the area of ​​the handle. A pistol flag is bad from the point of view of reliability (freezing, difficulties for the gauntlet). In addition, after releasing the flag, the bolt moves forward with a blow, and knocks the weapon off the line of sight. The fighter’s hand is already on the trigger, and he has to make an adjustment for the sight due to the fact that the weapon was pulled to the side due to the impact of the bolt frame. So in the dynamics of such a design simply loses. Another thing in the gun. There, the replacement of the store can be carried out without taking the weapon from the line of fire.

                The second option with shutter release. But its dynamics is not much different from the scheme with no delay.

                As for Grendel. Yes. We do not need a "new" machine. And the new cartridge. Everyone is talking about it. Even in this thread. The benefits of what to say. A more powerful cartridge with good flatness is needed. My only opinion (if I were developing) is that the caliber of such a cartridge should be no less than the caliber that creates a capillary effect in the barrel. How many there will be 6 or 6.2 or 6.8 is secondary.
          2. scrabler
            25 September 2012 14: 10
            0
            You do not need to be an expert to analyze how weapons were used for service earlier and how this process is happening now.
        2. Joker
          Joker 25 September 2012 13: 54
          0
          Moral? Well, actually we hear a lack of accuracy when shooting in bursts, high returns.
        3. leon-iv
          leon-iv 25 September 2012 14: 50
          +3
          bunta
          Handshake and not good, like gay and democratic journalists.
          To do this, you need to have an idea of ​​the system for the development and production of military equipment destroyed by Putin's camarilla.
          Oh my goodness where to run. Chef mustache is gone. You go to the topic of the Shell there, let's talk about it. But it’s not clear how KBP will be able to create better than Almaz Antey air defense air defense system with an interface with CP of all levels, etc. and so on.
          Until now, the customer was engaged in this - the Ministry of Defense with its powerful scientific ("Shot" courses)
          A shot is a refresher course but not a special research institute. BUT it will be known to you that active work is being carried out with specialists in applied shooting. At these courses, officers of the Armed Forces and the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the FSB conduct classes for officers of the Armed Forces.
          reconnaissance apparatus [/ b
          hmm buy any western small arms is NOT a problem basically hosh on the internet hosh in stores.
          And in relation to AK and SVD, we hear only "obsolescence" and nothing more intelligible.
          You better read a hansa there will learn a lot for yourself. No one says that AK and SVD is bad.
          Ak a good machine
          SVD is one of the best rifles in its class.
          Both of them need modern shooting devices and good ammunition.

          Threat sew a vest AK-12 is an initiative development of Izhmash.
          1. bunta
            bunta 25 September 2012 16: 58
            +4
            Quote: leon-iv
            Threat sew a vest AK-12 is an initiative development of Izhmash.

            Drink vodka. AK-12 is an unrealized offer of the Tulak Zlobin.
        4. Su24
          Su24 27 September 2012 00: 24
          0
          Well, specifically, why is Rogozin bad?
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 27
            +1
            Rather, the question is - what is good?
  7. Bugor
    Bugor 25 September 2012 10: 51
    +8
    Let Rogozin not have professionalism at all. And patriotism will be. He is a manager. After all, it is not necessary for the plant director to be able to work on the machine? Desirable, but not necessary.
    It’s Rogozin’s task to assemble a team of real professionals and organize their work. That is precisely his task.
    And he will voice the point of view of this team.
    Another thing is that the team may turn out to be "courtyard" ...
    1. Mugs
      Mugs 25 September 2012 11: 35
      +3
      Quote: Bugor
      It’s Rogozin’s task to assemble a team of real professionals and organize their work.

      This moment is bothering me. By what criteria will a layperson select professionals if he cannot evaluate their professionalism? Whisper in your ear? It is fraught ...
      1. mongoose
        mongoose 25 September 2012 13: 01
        +4
        What do you think, when Dzhugashvilli, the Red Army suffered from his not professionalism in weapons matters? he only graduated from seminary laughing
        1. Mugs
          Mugs 25 September 2012 23: 25
          +3
          Shaking the PCA sample in his hands, Iosif Vissarionovich, releasing a cloud of fragrant tobacco smoke, said with a sly grin: "Shouldn't you, comrade Shpagin, adapt your submachine gun?"
          Shpagin was seriously alarmed: "What did the Leader mean? Maybe it is worth tightening the Picatinny rail? Or did he mean something else?" Georgy Semyonovich did not dare to ask again.
          1. Odessa
            Odessa 25 September 2012 23: 29
            +7
            Mugs,
            Here's more about Stalin.

            On July 8, 1941, the Rukavishnikov anti-tank rifle was presented to the Main Military Council again, but the complexity of the design and the high cost of production served as obstacles to the release of this PTR in war conditions. Then Stalin urgently involved V. Degtyarev and his student S. Simonov in the development of a new PTR. The deadline was extremely tight - a month. It took Degtyarev and Simonov only 22 days to develop new PTR models. Two variants of rifles were provided to the People's Commissariat of Arms - Degtyarev's anti-tank rifle and Simonov's anti-tank rifle. On August 29, 1941, both guns were on the table near Stalin and the question was decided which of the two samples would be accepted for service. After test firing and discussion of new weapons, Stalin decided to adopt both models - ATGM (14,5 mm) and ATGM (14,5 mm).
            1. insomnia
              insomnia 27 September 2012 18: 41
              +1
              Yes, I somehow heard this story. So it turns out that everything rests against us so that someone starts to do something, it is necessary that for a start the roasted cock pecked us in one place, and there everything will be nishty at once.
              Specifically, the machine: AK-12 weapons for special forces, and not combined arms. There are several reasons for such a statement:
              1. Economic. Everyone here understands, yes. A full replacement of full-time weapons will cost too much for the budget (and no one will honestly spend on such expenses).
              2. Personnel. AK-12, though a Kalash, but a complicated Kalash. Any schoolchild will master the AK-74 in 15 minutes. It is better to entrust the development of the "two" to more qualified personnel.
              3. Security. AK-12, as everyone has already seen, is hung on all sides with "Picantini", and they need to be filled with something. And if each conscript is equipped with a flashlight, a laser targeting system, a collimator, and a grenade launcher, again, you will not be enough money.
              So it turns out that for various special forces of the Army and Navy (Motor Riflemen, GRU, Airborne Forces, Navy, etc.), the FSB, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and others, a new machine is a necessary thing (again, the different sizes, modularity and other so popular trends of modern weapons fashion). And it does not make sense to rearm the entire Army.
          2. Pimply
            Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 30
            +1
            Bravo! laughing Approved 8)
        2. Zynaps
          Zynaps 26 September 2012 02: 14
          +3
          Comrade Dzhugashvili did not make important decisions alone, but only after discussing issues with specialists. there were people among the designers whom he respected very much and to whose opinion he listened. one of these people was the weapons designer Degtyarev, for whom the common cause was more important than any personal ambitions. at least learn the story of the adoption of the machine gun SG-43 designer Goryunov. very instructive story.
      2. Su24
        Su24 27 September 2012 00: 34
        +1
        And how did Beria oversee the creation of the atomic bomb? He himself was never a nuclear scientist.
    2. understudy
      understudy 25 September 2012 11: 51
      +1
      Quote: Bugor
      real professionals, organize their work. That is precisely his task.

      Non-professional recruits a team of professionals ??? "Marvelous are your works, Lord!" (from)
      It seemed to me that we were already full of "effective managers" to hiccups. It turns out not. And there are even those who continue to believe in the success of the team of furniture makers and tax authorities in the field of military construction.
      1. Su24
        Su24 27 September 2012 00: 39
        -1
        You yourself do not know who Rogozin is.
  8. understudy
    understudy 25 September 2012 10: 57
    0
    My "plus" article.
    The army should have weapons, so to speak, for the "mass user". And so far, the AK74 is quite consistent. For specialists, the approach to this issue can and should be not only "special", but also purely individual.
    I agree with the replica bunta, make an intelligent person, there is no reason to appoint a lay professional to a high position.
  9. cobra66
    cobra66 25 September 2012 11: 02
    +1
    Izhmash would have released a small batch and sold for advertising to 3 countries
    1. Gurza
      Gurza 25 September 2012 11: 11
      0
      So, like India, for India they are developing a modular automaton. Will offer.
  10. cobra66
    cobra66 25 September 2012 11: 15
    +1
    So far, India is taking a 100 series, like with a cutoff which
    1. Gurza
      Gurza 25 September 2012 11: 24
      0
      Hmm, decided not to change? Is it expensive?
      Recently I saw an article they adopted 2 of their paragraphs.
      1. cobra66
        cobra66 25 September 2012 11: 30
        +1
        It’s easier to develop weapons on the side, it’s easier to order on the side, only the issue of maintenance and ammunition should be decided as it should, although they may really have begun to develop or copy something
  11. Bugor
    Bugor 25 September 2012 12: 00
    -2
    Quote: Mugs
    What are the criteria for a layman to select professionals?

    That’s the question ... I want to believe that he will heed the opinion of the Moscow Region, the military-industrial complex, and everyone interested in this. Then he will divide their wishes in half (since the truth is always somewhere in between), and on this basis, he will assemble a team where everyone will complement each other. In disputes, truth is born, right?

    Quote: Understudy
    And there are even those who continue to believe in the success of the team of furniture makers and tax specialists in the field of military construction.

    He answered a little higher. I continue to believe that we must get out of the F in which we are right now. And preferably faster. So PU finally thought about what was going on in the military-industrial complex. Illumination has decreased ....
    1. Mugs
      Mugs 25 September 2012 12: 11
      +1
      Quote: Bugor
      That’s the question ... I want to believe that he will heed the opinion of the Moscow Region, the military-industrial complex, and everyone interested in this. Then he will share their wishes in half (since the truth is always somewhere in between), and on this basis, he will assemble a team where everyone will complement each other.

      As a result of such averaging, we can get a team of unremarkable mediocrity that satisfies everyone, and we need outstanding individuals who can insist and do their job. Such people are usually uncomfortable, if not all, then many ...
      Quote: Bugor
      In disputes, truth is born, right?

      You can’t argue)
      1. GP
        GP 25 September 2012 12: 24
        +2
        Mugs
        Bugor
        Think smartly. But! Read about the person, even here
        http://lobbying.ru/persons.php?id=306
        ...
    2. bunta
      bunta 25 September 2012 13: 11
      +2
      Quote: Bugor
      will gather a team where everyone will complement each other

      Guys, this is not a KVN team to assemble! The collapse is complete not only in the area of ​​defense and military-industrial complex. This collapse is part of a general collapse that includes education and medicine and justice. Give up all hopes for "democratic" methods of rectifying the situation. There are systemic laws that do not care about the personality of Putin or Rogozin or their abilities.
  12. wulf66
    wulf66 25 September 2012 12: 02
    +4
    Journalists from impunity are completely insane. I emphasize, zhurnalyugi, as in any family there are freaks among normal ones. Only a bit too many of them have hatched in recent years ... To the author plus definitely, stop blaming her.
  13. Bugor
    Bugor 25 September 2012 12: 33
    +2
    Quote: Mugs
    As a result of such averaging, we can get a team of unremarkable mediocrity that satisfies everyone, and we need outstanding individuals who can insist and do their job. Such people are usually uncomfortable, if not all, then many ...

    Entirely and completely agree. But where to get them? Personalities? Unfortunately, Ustinov cannot be resurrected ... Therefore, averaging remains. At the first stage. And then by selection ... We can, and we can do something.

    Quote: Bugor
    Another thing is that the team may turn out to be "courtyard" ...


    GP,
    Thank! Now it’s clear that the SA knows and remembers the power, I hope.
  14. PSih2097
    PSih2097 25 September 2012 12: 58
    +10
    and the people require at least some gestures, a relatively adequate decision was made - to adapt the AKs already in service.

    just need to purchase:
    collimator Eotech 551, 3.25x magnifying nozzle Eotech, flashlight SUREFIRE, KIT from MAGPUL or any other office.
    I took a whale from CAA Tactical -

    stock telescopic 7 260r,

    tactical pistol grip 2 310,

    vertical handle 2 310,

    forend set + gas outlet 4 620,

    Weaver AK (low long reinforced) 5.
    Optics: Eotech 551,

    since it is no longer produced take Eotech XPS3-0 28 050,
    3.25x magnifying nozzle

    Eotech EOTech Magnifiers G23.FTS 26 730.
    Well, the lantern

    Surefire M952XM07 Millennium Universal Weapon Light System 9 900.
    As a result, 74 rubles were spent on updating the AK86m (tuning).

    And what’s interesting to me is, can it really be that our industry cannot handle such things?
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 25 September 2012 13: 02
      0
      Zenith is trying. While it's tight
      1. beard999
        beard999 25 September 2012 14: 47
        +3
        Quote: Pimply
        While it's tight

        What, in fact, is “going tight”? The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is not interested in this harness at all, by definition, and the Ministry of Internal Affairs has long been purchasing for AK http://www.zenitco.ru/catalog/1717/ and for RMB / PKP http://www.zenitco.ru/catalog/ 1792 /. Representatives of "Zenith" argue that certain elements of the "Classics" were purchased and the FSB ...
        So there is nothing "tight", the question is solely in the desire of law enforcement agencies to purchase such tuning for AK ...
        1. TiRex
          TiRex 1 October 2012 23: 40
          0
          at these prices they will not develop anything, the prices are unrealistic, for my saiga I bought a lot, I reviewed different things. I liked about the pistol grip for 3000r (he took the same for 900r in the store and shot about 4000 shots with it without problems with 12k, including magnum), respectively, for the army they should cost at least 3 times cheaper ...
      2. leon-iv
        leon-iv 25 September 2012 14: 55
        +4
        Zenith is trying. While it's tight
        It all comes down to the price. Although our OMSN, looking at Karden, also began to buy for himself. I fell a bit like it)))
    2. LION
      LION 25 September 2012 13: 29
      -1
      Upgrade is great. The main thing is not to give conscripts. And to wrap it in a rag, otherwise you will be tormented to clean all these grooves, shabras and cavities.
      Right Pupyrchaty said - there is no competition. But it should be. Under the USSR, several design bureaus on the same topic and TK were engaged in the development of weapons. And it worked. There were, of course, excesses and lobbyism (T 72, T80, T 64 all MBT and all the same) But the best was chosen. I am for competition, including with Western standards. Maybe modernization of plants will go faster. In the meantime, AK 47, this is our everything.
    3. Joker
      Joker 25 September 2012 14: 01
      -1
      Beauty is some kind of nonsense hi so only special forces tunes, for 86 460 you can buy AK-12 fighter wink the bunch with the increase and the usual collimator is better for the 4 x ACOG to replace, IMHO it is more convenient and cheaper.
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 25 September 2012 16: 13
        0
        4x ACOG

        Acog 4x32 itself costs 2 - 000 American rubles ... sewed on soap. IMHO
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 25 September 2012 16: 17
          +2
          It is retail both civilian and in Russia
          1. PSih2097
            PSih2097 27 September 2012 00: 16
            0
            It is retail both civilian and in Russia

            our customs looks very askance at such orders, so it’s better to overpay and not have hemorrhoids than to pay and find out that your package is stupidly lost or run through examinations and prove obvious things to people who do not even know the concept of a collimator ...
      2. PSih2097
        PSih2097 27 September 2012 01: 33
        0
        look at airsoft players:

        Manufacturer: - SRC Code: GE-0602TM-III Gearbox: 3rd version Motor: Ultra High Torque Motor Stem length: 455 mm. Weight: 2850 gr. Store type: bunker Store capacity: 600 HOP AP balls: adjustable Speed: 95-100 m / s Battery type: AK type Production material: case (receiver) - metal, forend - plastic, stock - plastic, external barrel - metal : Rifle (automatic), instructions, store, additional spring S120, ramrod, balls
        9 400.00 rubles
        And so I advise you to climb on the Hansa, there are a lot of tuned things there.
        as an example:

        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 27 September 2012 11: 01
          0
          I’ll add from myself:
          COAKC Ultimate Upgrade Kit For The AK47.

          (2) ACP Adjustable Cheek Rest. Polymer made
          (3) CBS Collapsible commercial spec buttstock. Polymer made
          (4) PBSS1 1 Sling Swivel - Quick Release. Aluminum made
          (5) UPG47 6 Piece Interchangeable Pistol Grip. Polymer made
          (6) BPP GRIP Pivot Pod Grip. Polymer + Aluminum Made
          (7) UFH3P 5 Positions Quick Release Light / laser Mount - 24.4-27mm. Polymer made
          (8) TC3 Tactical Long LED Vortex Light. Aluminum made
          (9) XRS47-SET 5 Picatinny Hand Guard Rail System. Aluminum made
          Price: €714.00
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 27 September 2012 18: 47
            0
            Quote: PSih2097
            I’ll add from myself:

            And how do you like this kit?
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 29 September 2012 10: 44
              -1
              The body kit produced by our company "Zenith" http://www.zenitco.ru/catalog/1717/


              Strapping kit for AK "Classic"
              The kit includes:
              Base B-9 "Goose", Forend B-10, Plank B-12, Plank B-13, Grip RK-1, Grip RK-3, Butt PT-1, Muzzle brake-compensator DTK-1, Flashlight with integrated LCC "Tick" 2PS + LTSU
            2. dustycat
              dustycat 26 June 2013 15: 21
              0
              Quote: Bad_gr
              Quote: PSih2097
              I’ll add from myself:

              And how do you like this kit?


              Shushraifel.
              Bulpap from AK is done by moving the gas pipe under the barrel.
  15. Pimply
    Pimply 25 September 2012 13: 04
    +1
    The biggest trouble for any new machine in Russia right now is the cargo of the Kalashnikov brand.

    In order for something new, modern, interesting to appear, you need to forget about "unparalleled" and re-conduct the competition.
    1. scrabler
      25 September 2012 13: 35
      +6
      It's probably not even the "brand" that matters, but the fact that the creation of a new weapon requires very large financial costs for setting up production. New details are needed. In principle, this could be seen with the naked eye during any of the competitions for a new machine gun for the army under the Union. There were really promising samples, the same Korobov "made" Kalashnikov not once or twice, but we will not raise the topic "what would have happened if instead of AK they had adopted some other machine gun" because this will start in the comments that oh-oh-oh , we have what we have, especially since the weapon is far from the worst, even by today's standards. And as for mass weapons in the event of a full-scale military conflict, in my opinion, AK is really the best, because it is a tenacious infection, simple and understandable even for a monkey. wink
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 25 September 2012 15: 15
        +1
        Nothing prevents you from holding stock in warehouses, like mosquitoes still lie. But if we want a normal army, then we must not only live in the past, but also live in the present, and look to the future.

        Shl, Monkey - viral video of the movie "Rise of the Planet of the Apes"
        1. scrabler
          25 September 2012 15: 23
          0
          Well, this is clear that she will not shoot from AK))) But to set the mood it’s the most smile
    2. beard999
      beard999 25 September 2012 14: 48
      +3
      Quote: Pimply
      The biggest problem for any new machine in Russia now is the burden of the Kalashnikov brand. In order for something new, modern, interesting to appear, you need to forget about "unparalleled" and re-conduct the competition

      Why should we forget the “Kalashnikov brand”, my dear? Whether you like it or not, this is truly a world-class achievement in small arms and “has no analogues” in terms of prevalence in the world. And this, in no way, prevents us from creating new models of automatic weapons. It’s enough to recall that at one time the AFM and AEK became the finalists of the competition on the topic “Abakan”, and by no means AK ...
      By the way. In Israel, you don’t have any “brand burden”, however, you couldn’t give out what is better than the “core” of Tavor. So, "hold the competition again."
      1. scrabler
        25 September 2012 15: 02
        -1
        I will correct, the finalists were the Nikonov machine gun, the Stechkin machine gun and optionally the Korobov machine gun.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 25 September 2012 15: 26
        +2
        Yes, with such that with an eye on the super-Kalashnikov, everything is done. Which closes the course to any promising developments. Everyone yells - there is no better Kalash - and they turn a blind eye to the fact that the world has long gone ahead.

        A stub Tavor bought a dozen countries. Reliability is not inferior to AK, accuracy - at the level of emo. Convenient, in a normal place, a fire translator, a minimum of rusting parts, a reinforced barrel - and is constantly in development. With a shorter length, he managed to maintain the length of the barrel, as in M4, in one embodiment, and M16A2 in another. He is one of the favorites of the contest in India. Izhmash simply did not go to the Indian contest.





        As for the cargo, it’s like there were Uzis, and the Israeli version of the Kalash “Galil” looks very good in its modernized form. But - they didn't stop there. They did not stop in other countries either.

        1. beard999
          beard999 25 September 2012 23: 45
          +2
          Quote: Pimply
          Yes, with such that with an eye on the super-Kalashnikov, everything is done. Which closes the course to any promising developments. Everyone yells - there is no better Kalash - and they turn a blind eye to the fact that the world has long gone ahead.

          Firstly, Kalashnikov is really a guideline on the reliability of weapons. And ignoring this for Russian gunsmiths would be simply stupid. In a real war, reliability is worth a lot. Secondly, the AK is still said to be effective weapons by those who use these weapons in real combat operations (I already gave you a link to the words of the FSB FSB fighters once). Thirdly, most armies in the world are armed with small arms developed for a long time (AK, M16, etc.), including the most warring army in the world - the American one. And they wanted to spit “wherever he went into the world” ...
          Quote: Pimply
          A stub Tavor bought a dozen countries. Reliability is not inferior to AK

          None of these 15 countries rearmed their armed forces on Tavor. Separate units and about half are police and special services.
          To the reliability of AK "stub" as Beijing to cancer. It is strange that you do not understand this.
          Quote: Pimply
          He is one of the favorites of the contest in India.

          And who do you think are the outsiders there? Americans, Swiss, Italians, Czechs?
          Quote: Pimply
          Izhmash simply did not go to the Indian contest.

          If you know the conditions of the competition, then it should be completely obvious to you why Izhmash did not take part in it. Nevertheless, the production and export of weapons at Izhmash is growing http://www.itar-tass.com/c96/524417_print.html.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 21
            +1
            Quote: beard999
            Firstly, Kalashnikov is really a guideline on the reliability of weapons. And ignoring this for Russian gunsmiths would be simply stupid. In a real war, reliability is worth a lot. Secondly, the AK is still said to be effective weapons by those who use these weapons in real combat operations (I already gave you a link to the words of the FSB FSB fighters once). Thirdly, most armies in the world are armed with small arms developed for a long time (AK, M16, etc.), including the most warring army in the world - the American one. And they wanted to spit “wherever he went into the world” ...


            Americans use not only M-ku, for starters. They are actively torturing the same FN Scar.
            Secondly, M-ka went through several major upgrades. Barrel (gain and change of cutting step), spring, magazines, cartridges (they were changed several times), trims, butt, etc. There was modularity in it before, but now the number of possible options has grown indefinitely: look at the recent Kolt varieties. Her ergonomics have always been almost standard. The installation of new sights (collimators and sights of low magnification) dramatically increased the accuracy and number of knocked out enemy units. However, they continue to search.
            Work is underway with a new caliber, for example, testing new options.

            Quote: beard999

            And who do you think are the outsiders there? Americans, Swiss, Italians, Czechs?


            The Czechs and Italians are still damp rifles - this is their main disadvantage. Plus to the tavor - it has been actively used in various Indian divisions in quantities of a couple of tens of thousands of pieces for several years.


            Quote: beard999
            If you know the conditions of the competition, then it should be completely obvious to you why Izhmash did not take part in it. Nevertheless, the production and export of weapons at Izhmash is growing http://www.itar-tass.com/c96/524417_print.html.


            Is growing. Naturally. Mostly due to the US civilian market and the former union republics. As for the States, I only applaud them - finally they began to move.

            Quote: beard999
            None of these 15 countries rearmed their armed forces on Tavor. Separate units and about half are police and special services.
            To the reliability of AK "stub" as Beijing to cancer. It is strange that you do not understand this.


            Israel, actively fighting. How else - Thailand. Rearm, and very active. Chances are high in India. Vietnam - Marines. The toy is not the cheapest. And therefore, it is often used by a special agent who would hardly begin to use an unreliable toy, right?

            Reviews from the army on Tavor are favorable, childhood illnesses are cured. As for reliability - I showed you the video.
            1. beard999
              beard999 26 September 2012 17: 01
              +1
              Quote: Pimply
              Americans use not only M-ku, for starters
              they keep looking.

              In the NE and the United States Commission of America, the main individual automatic weapons are M16A2 / A3 / A4 and M4. M16A4 in service since 1994, M4A1 in service since 1996. Since then, the weapon itself has not changed. Only kit type M16A4 MWS for KMP. And it is with these weapons that the American armed forces are fighting. These are facts, everything else demagoguery.
              As for the “searches”, they have been conducted in the USA for more than a decade (both before and after OICW). Nevertheless, no one in the US is in a hurry to change the M16 to something "newfangled." In itself, for a warring country, with almost unlimited financial resources, this says a lot.
              Quote: Pimply
              The Czechs and Italians are still damp rifles - this is their main disadvantage. Plus to the tavor - it has been actively used in various Indian divisions in quantities of a couple of tens of thousands of pieces for several years.

              I won’t say anything for the Czechs, I don’t know, but the Beretta’s rifle is definitely not raw than the Israeli model, and the company has much more experience than IWI. “Tavor,” of course, is “used” in India, but only units are again specific, not linear infantry, and the Indians plan to rearm the 359 infantry battalions of the SV and here the Colt with the M4 modification is clearly preferable, especially in terms of practical experience in military operations on a variety of TVDs.
              Quote: Pimply
              Is growing. Naturally. Mostly due to the US civilian market and the former union republics.

              This is true. The market for army weapons is clogged with cheap East European and Chinese clones AK and Izhmash will not be able to go to the AK 100 series. Although over the past decade, Izhmash has sold more than the same Israeli IWI, the Israeli IWI - 100000 AK-103 to Venezuela and 9000 AK-102 to Indonesia. But the future is natural for new developments.
              Quote: Pimply
              Israel, actively fighting. How else - Thailand. And therefore, it is often used by a special agent who would hardly begin to use an unreliable toy, right?

              Israel is of course “warring,” but it is far from the “activity” of the USA. Forgive me, but Israel is waging its small-town wars, on its or its border territory. And for the most part, these were fleeting conflicts, and after 1982 (for 30 years) no clashes with regular armies. This applies even more to Thailand. About India, we'll see. I met in due time reports that in India just Sig-Sauer’s chances are high. As for the "special forces", not a single serious special unit (for the Israeli I can’t say) uses it. Not American, not British, not German, not French, not Chinese, not Russian ...
              Quote: Pimply
              Reviews from the army on Tavor are favorable, childhood illnesses are cured. As for reliability - I showed you the video.

              What about the video? Here you definitely believe in this video, and in the video where the AK-74M and M16A2 are compared, and where the latter actually died in Russian tests for failure-free operation in difficult conditions, you refuse to believe why. You yourself look at the density of the TAR-21 layout, remember what tolerances are there, etc. and compare this with AK technology. In general, all this has already been sucked to the bone 100 times on various blogs and forums ...
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 26 September 2012 17: 54
                +2
                For starters, the M4 is the fourth, in fact, generation of the rifle. Colt has now made the fourth modular. By changing the upper receiver, the morning group and a number of parts of the rifle, you can quickly change the caliber. The Americans changed the barrel for a long time, the pitch of the rifling, the spring, the shops, they did several versions of the cartridges, and even put the optics on. The principal was an improvement in the main parameters twice. They did not achieve this, although, I repeat, there was an attempt.



                Special operations forces actively use Skar.



                They have nowhere to rush, because their rifle is convenient, constantly moving forward, and for a long time not the classic M16.


                Quote: beard999
                I won’t say anything for the Czechs, I don’t know, but the Beretta’s rifle is definitely not raw than the Israeli model, and the company has much more experience than IWI. “Tavor,” of course, is “used” in India, but only units are again specific, not linear infantry, and the Indians plan to rearm the 359 infantry battalions of the SV and here the Colt with the M4 modification is clearly preferable, especially in terms of practical experience in military operations on a variety of TVDs.


                Sure - about not raw? Beretta ARX-160 appeared in the 2009 year, it still hasn’t been used normally - only among the Italians and even in small quantities. Since the 2000 year, Tavor has been participating in active hostilities, purchased by the 15 countries, some of which are actively fighting, went through several wars and military operations. As for the experience of Beretta - undoubtedly, there is. But - their rifles were never exemplary.

                What about the rest, along with Tavor, Czechs and Germans most preferably look. Both those and others have excellent new samples, the Germans have a big plus - ouzouzan in real conditions. As for the Americans, with all my love for the arch, it is, nevertheless, a product of the last century. And the Indians are trying to look into the future.

                Chavez is a separate topic and a separate conversation. Like Indonesia. In both cases, large loan deals followed by Russia followed. Israel trades somewhat on different conditions.

                Quote: beard999
                Not American, not British, not German, not French, not Chinese, not Russian ...
                Know why? These are arms producing countries.


                I certainly do not believe in the video. I believe in a combination of videos and facts, reviews and more.

                And the facts of the user say that Tavor had difficulties at the beginning of operation, was being finalized, his launch is a little tricky, it does not use the most successful M16 stores. Otherwise, according to all reviews, it is accurate, reliable, not afraid of ardor and dirt.
                Ergonomics is a dream. I held it somehow in my hands. It literally sticks into the shoulder.
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 26 September 2012 18: 00
                  +1
                  Hi Zhen, isn’t it BARRET downstairs?
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 26 September 2012 18: 06
                    +1
                    Where's the barret? o_o
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 26 September 2012 18: 08
                      +1
                      In the bottom photo?
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 18: 12
                        +2
                        Scar. Fn. Unassembled with an additional barrel. Here is the barrel.



                        And here is the Beretta

                      2. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 18: 14
                        +1
                        Zhen is BARRET 50 cal, I mean BARRET 6.5
                      3. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 18: 16
                        +2
                        Here's 6.5. Hull - from the "arch"



                        In Barrett, it is worth noting that they are actively working with new cartridges
                      4. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 18: 22
                        +1
                        That's why I asked. I saw comparative tests of AKM and this machine ...
                      5. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 18: 25
                        +2
                        They are one of the most dynamic on the market, well done just. A new cartridge hit the target at 2500 km from the first shot
                      6. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 18: 28
                        0
                        Zhen in my distance was 1km.
                2. beard999
                  beard999 27 September 2012 12: 08
                  +1
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Colt has now made the fourth modular.

                  You really don’t understand what I’m writing to you about? I don’t give a damn that Colt has just made a modular fourth. ” Is this in the troops? No. There is nothing newer than M4A1. The same goes for Scar. How many are there in the MTR? Compare with the amount of the same M4. Once again I say - Americans do not chase “new-fangled” devices, but use their proven weapons. And this means that at the moment, it is quite effective and efficient.
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Sure - about not raw?

                  For 4 years, the ARX-160 has been tested in Italy. They even brought him to Norway for testing in arctic conditions. More importantly, the ARX-160 is being developed with full support and in close contact with the Italian Armed Forces, and the rifle has no alternative to being part of the Soldato Futuro. It speaks for itself. Well, Beretta itself is not a company that would make raw weapons. Of course, not all of them had commercial success, but I have never met the terminology “raw” in relation to “Beretta”.
                  In which military operations and in which countries did Tavor take part, in addition to the IDF’s butting with Hezbollah and Hamas? Yes, and the IDF is far from completely rearmament on the TAR-21 (MTAR-21). As far as we know, most of the IDF combat units in the July 2006 war (the largest armed conflict for Israel in 30 years) were armed with M4 and M4A1. The same situation was during Operation Cast Lead. So even in the IDF, Tavor’s combat experience is very limited. In any case, it can not be compared with the M4.
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Israel trades somewhat on different conditions.

                  Venezuela is a rich country. Chavez promised to produce an additional 920 thousand pieces of AK 100 series under license and pay the same for it. And any loans with interest returns, as expected. Indonesia sold for real money, as far as is known.
                  As if Israel is trading "on different conditions." When there is a competition, then Israel trades in the same way as all other countries. And not otherwise. And he dumps prices and provides loans and organizes offset programs. For example, in an Indian competition, an offset program is immediately agreed upon in the amount of 30% of the total cost of delivery and the transfer of documentation and production technology of India. Considering that the USA participate in the competition, and they can afford to make any financial concessions, all other participants will have to rely on this circumstance. Unless of course they want to win ...
                  Quote: Pimply
                  In the know why ?.
                  I don’t believe unconditionally in the video

                  Uzi, at one time, did not use some of the listed special services? And this is despite the fact that they are “arms manufacturers”. No, your logic is not working here.
                  Tavor had reliability problems from the very beginning. This does not deny even such a source as the English-language Wiki. According to IWI, “the problems were fixed in 2009.” After that, the rifle did not take part in any serious operations. AK has been in operation for 63 years, won in many conflicts, and he did not have any problems with reliability. Everything is relative.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 27 September 2012 13: 12
                    0
                    By M4. I repeat - at the moment, yes. Which does not mean that they are not looking. They held a contest, the winner of which was X8. However, in the end they left it, since they did not achieve the goals by a two-fold increase in the main indicators, they did not achieve it on the new rifle. The difference was not so significant as to make a replacement. But they are looking for and regularly testing new samples.

                    According to Beretta. ANY new weapon has a lot of generic glitches, which are corrected only by the user. Lapping was in AK, Uzi, M16, G36, Tavor, FN-Fal, etc. Is Beretta fundamentally different from them? Not. Naturally, they worked in cooperation with the Armed Forces, the national firm and the main customer.

                    Tavor is used by Colombians in their military operations against drug courts and partisans.
                    Thais - they had several internal military conflicts.
                    Indians are actively using Kashmir - there, too, not everything is calm.
                    Special Operations Forces of several countries. The tzahal ousted him not only in military operations against Hezbollah, but also in several other military operations - and constantly uses it. At the time of the 2006 war, the 2 infantry battalion was rearmament at Tavor. At the moment, M4 has remained only with the paratroopers - and the planned rotation continues.
                    Are you waiting for some kind of total war for trials? Fortunately for all people on this planet, it is not there yet.

                    Venezuela is not a very rich country. She has oil - yes. Half of the country's income. And huge internal social obligations that consume more and more resources. Just at some point this can lead to another write-off of debts for the sake of strange prospects.
                    Was the plant construction contract paid in cash? May be. Only then two loans followed - for 2.2 billion, and for 4 billion.

                    Respected. Uzi - PP for specific purposes. It is still used if you are talking about it. There is a difference between him and the main assault rifle.
                    Tavor had problems at the initial stage, during the transition to mass production. These problems were fixed, and after that they did not surface. All automata had "childhood" diseases. Why do you think AKM appeared?
                3. insomnia
                  insomnia 27 September 2012 18: 58
                  0
                  Everything is awesome. Reading you, it seems so straightforward that Tavor is some kind of poet's dream is simple.
                  And how is he doing with (drum roll) ... sand.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 27 September 2012 19: 23
                    0


                    Test test shooting. And, like all trunks, he has his own troubles. But in general - a very good device.
      3. Pimply
        Pimply 25 September 2012 20: 28
        0
        Yes, and by the way. They became finalists and? The form almost repeated the AK. An-94 and AEK turned out to be raw and complicated, problematic machines, straight from the 70s.
        1. DIMS
          DIMS 25 September 2012 20: 36
          0
          And what is complicated in AEK? Something you erect in vain on him. Its main and almost the only drawback is that it was created by the Kovrovites.
    3. leon-iv
      leon-iv 25 September 2012 14: 58
      +2
      The biggest trouble for any new machine in Russia right now is the cargo of the Kalashnikov brand.
      It's buulshit. Everything rests on the desire of the factory management.
      "Eat what they give" to us
      We "Go in the forest" Every time I remember about the saiga for a friend I remember Izhmash. True, normal thoughts began to speak. Let's see what happens with the airsoft version.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 25 September 2012 15: 30
        +1
        Yes, not only. IMHO - general inertia.
      2. PSih2097
        PSih2097 25 September 2012 16: 41
        0
        True, normal thoughts began to speak. Let's see what happens with the airsoft version.

        They themselves also tried to punch, silence, as if they were doing not a drive, but ICBMs. and it looks very good ...
        Their initial speed is about 135 m / s, however, it can vary depending on the weight of the bullet used during firing and the power of the firing unit. Tests of the first AK-74M in the airsoft version have already taken place. When firing from a distance of 50 meters, the diameter of the dispersion of bullets did not exceed 30 cm, which is more than a worthy indicator for pneumatic weapons with a low shot energy (less than 7,5 kJ).
        Among the other advantages of the designer’s electro-pneumatic weapons are frost resistance, ease of loading, multi-charge, ease of use and safety, as well as wear resistance and the absence of restrictions on its distribution.


        interesting price for this product ...
  16. Bugor
    Bugor 25 September 2012 13: 17
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    Zenith is trying

    Who is there to try? I live in Krasnogorsk. It's not even ... oops. This is ANUS. Three quarters of the plant is leased. I put air conditioners on the territory (for tenants). "Access control, secret object", piz ... that's all. Tore the plant to pieces ...
    1. beard999
      beard999 25 September 2012 14: 49
      0
      Quote: Bugor
      I live in Krasnogorsk.

      What does Krasnogorsk have to do with it? In this case, we are talking about a private company LLC Zenit, organized in 1994 and which is located in Moscow, at Novokuznetskaya, d.31.
      1. Bugor
        Bugor 25 September 2012 17: 08
        0
        Given that “Zenith” is one. Everything else is bullshit. Type ADIDAS - ABIDAS.
      2. loft79
        loft79 25 September 2012 21: 22
        0
        This is their office in Moscow, and probably the production beyond the Moscow Ring Road.
        And this is not Moscow, this is Russia)))
  17. andrey903
    andrey903 25 September 2012 13: 46
    0
    In SOBR accurately buy belts, handles, butts, as well as a form for business trips
  18. AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 25 September 2012 13: 47
    +2
    AK is a very good example of simple and reliable weapons. Hang various mounts, etc. sure you may. It is quite possible to fix a laser or collimator sight. Perhaps a tactical flashlight. As an addition to the basic combat characteristics.
    The future belongs to a larger caliber and weapons, which use cartridgeless cartridges. Such developments should be presented in the army and undergo field trials.
  19. Normal
    Normal 25 September 2012 14: 27
    0
    AK really requires replacement, or even better, deep modernization. The main task of which is to improve the accuracy of fire while maintaining reliability. If the AK-12 is really as good as shown in the video posted by Joker, then I would be "FOR" with both hands. It would not be bad to immediately develop an automatic grenade launcher system according to the "bullpup" scheme for special units like OTs-12 on the basis of the AK-14
  20. Novosibirsky
    Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 15: 42
    +3
    Still, a healthy oar is obtained! Do not buzz it ((
    Shorten it no matter how without loss of reliability and maintaining the performance characteristics.

    And this of course is an element funny. )) Atavism laughing Get rid of him immediately!
  21. arthur_hammer
    arthur_hammer 25 September 2012 16: 01
    0
    it was necessary to modernize AK back in the 90s, but better late than never
  22. Trevis
    Trevis 25 September 2012 16: 14
    0
    Quote: arthur_hammer
    it was necessary to modernize AK back in the 90s, but better late than never

    Which 90s? Then everything almost collapsed, entire design bureaus ceased to exist.
  23. Sleptsoff
    Sleptsoff 25 September 2012 16: 31
    0
    While we will chew snot with this AK, the amers will already use the blaster.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 25 September 2012 16: 36
      +1
      Well, blasters are not blasters, but they upgraded them to such a level that Mama don’t worry. Lego. Collect on one base what you need. With increased reliability, different calibers and other nyashki

      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 25 September 2012 16: 46
        +1
        and m-ku they upgraded already to such a level that mom do not cry.

        And still, it does not reach the level ...

        1. Pimply
          Pimply 25 September 2012 17: 21
          +1
          A good joke, but AEK did not go into the normal series. And those that were did not find a special response in the troops.
          Well, if we talk about such moments as modularity, ergonomics, new materials, etc. - everything is very sad.
          1. Odessa
            Odessa 25 September 2012 19: 18
            0
            Pimply,
            Well, if we talk about such moments as modularity, ergonomics, new materials, etc. - everything is very sad.

            Especially new materials that affect pricing weapons.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 25 September 2012 20: 26
              +2
              Guess how much M4 now costs from Remington (is it now the official supplier of the US Army)? $ 673 per carbine. And the use of new materials increases the life of the weapon. For example, AK tends to rust, and M4 has much less such parts.
        2. Sleptsoff
          Sleptsoff 26 September 2012 16: 24
          0
          I read specialist reviews about this aek, they said that there, because of one broken pin, which for some reason broke very often, everything started to go to hell. In general, another product made on the knee.
      2. Novosibirsky
        Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 21: 50
        +2
        All these wonderful models, and M-ka herself and her followers, IMHO, in principle, can not claim to be a reliable personal weapon until the issue of the rammer is resolved.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 04
          +2
          Why is the rammer so bothering you? I’m the people who used AK in different forms, responded that for Kalash it would be nice
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 09
            +1
            Hi Zhen, but I don’t think you need a rammer, but this is my opinion.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 28
              +1
              Hi Sasha. I have not actively used AK, so, several times. My bird is the M16 in various forms. But this is what the guys who used it actively told me. That in some situations, a rammer to the AK would be very helpful
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 31
                0
                Zhenya I don’t know. Maybe there were Chinese or Bulgarian cars?
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 33
                  +1
                  Moreover, you can always close the shutter in the event of a shortage by hitting the foot of the shutter frame.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 05
                    0
                    In-in. Blow, Sash. This is exactly what I was reminded of 8). Especially, as I was told, such a situation is unpleasant in conditions when you need to be quiet 8)
                2. Novosibirsky
                  Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 22: 54
                  +1
                  Yes, probably! Surrogates.
                3. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 04
                  +2
                  Quite Russian guys spoke to me, in quite a Russia. The main problem is a cartridge, as a rule, or improper maintenance of the machine. Mantra - you can not clean, and eat anything you like slightly spoils the user. Of course, the situation, by design, is less likely on AK. Emka less reliable design. However, it is not as unreliable as they believe, and has a number of tangible advantages. For example, it has significantly fewer parts subject to corrosion
                  1. Novosibirsky
                    Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 28
                    +3
                    Quite Russian guys spoke to me, in quite a Russia.

                    Of course, I have no reason not to trust your words. But it makes no sense to repeat myself.
                    Quote: Pimply
                    The main problem is the cartridge,

                    And there has never been such a problem either. And to hear about her never happened.
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Mantra - you can not clean, and eat anything you like slightly spoils the user.

                    For such a mantra, we would have a lump of platoons put their eyes on the railway! )) Right now I remember: "Your personal weapon should shine like a cat's eggs !!!" )))
                    Ak also needs care .., the barrel will live longer.
                    Quote: Pimply
                    However, not as unreliable as they say

                    I never considered M-ku such a bad weapon, and its advantages are known to me. Just if it is likely that she will let you down at the most unnecessary moment. This is unacceptable. It covers all its virtues.
                    I saw a video, either from Iraq or from Afghanistan, the unit shoots back, and one fighter clogs like a paralytic with his wrist on the rammer, it does not work out, some kind of wedge, in general, he starts picking out a cartridge from the chamber with something! Well, what kind of personal weapon ..? The trouble ...
                    Quote: Pimply
                    For example, it has significantly fewer parts subject to corrosion

                    I believe that only the issue of corrosion before AK is also not particularly worth it, with proper care. And the care there is primitive, in any field conditions it’s easy to do, the chance tool is always with a rifle, and getting a rag and oil is not a problem. The multitool for disassembly, as for SCARa (read!) Is not needed.))
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 51
                      0
                      I saw this video. I also saw a video with a burning AK. I repeat - any weapon, including AK, has failures. At m-ki - a little more often, but not as much as they imagine. I repeat - I used a lot and often, and yet, I'm not alone. The main problems are old shops. And this is on the old M-ks, even from Vietnam. With new problems there was a minimum.

                      Quote: NovoSibirets
                      I believe that only the issue of corrosion before AK is also not particularly worth it, with proper care. And the care there is primitive, in any field conditions it’s easy to do, the chance tool is always with a rifle, and getting a rag and oil is not a problem. The multitool for disassembly, as for SCARa (read!) Is not needed.))


                      Skar is, to be honest, a big question. Well, however, this is a separate issue.
                      1. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 17
                        +2
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I also saw a video with a burning AK.

                        If you are talking about this video, then no comment! What other rifle can withstand such a shooting ?! It is more likely in AK advertising.
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 42
                        +1
                        I’m talking about the fact that we don’t know the real conditions about this video, nor who it is, nor what is there - nothing. Like the story of this Ak.
          2. Novosibirsky
            Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 22: 20
            +4
            The rammer is not casual there, right? I think you know what's under this. I believe that a weapon cannot be considered as such if at a crucial moment it does not send a cartridge without muscular strength. And you never know exactly when. )) While you forcibly send him, maybe, nevertheless, trouble will fly in))

            Quote: Pimply
            I’m the people who used AK in different forms, responded that for Kalash it would be nice

            Well, I don’t know, I used it myself, everyone was around, you are the first from whom I hear about such a need. AK does not need such a "device".
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 48
              +1
              Sure? And in the course that AK in different types also has a missed cartridge, for example? Remind me how he is treated?
              1. DIMS
                DIMS 25 September 2012 22: 51
                +3
                He heals with his foot. True, cases of such treatment mainly when shooting single occur
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 56
                  0
                  Dmitry was ahead of me, he just wanted to unsubscribe about single wink
                  1. DIMS
                    DIMS 25 September 2012 22: 59
                    0
                    And I only had a problem with them.
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 06
                      0
                      wink I remembered one loaded idle and planted a ramrod in the barrel. For a long time he was looking for him.
                2. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 06
                  +1
                  Here I am about the same. Single, or improper care of weapons (or the impossibility thereof). But there is a byak.
                  1. DIMS
                    DIMS 25 September 2012 23: 11
                    0
                    Due to improper care, most of the trouble with shops is
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 39
                      0
                      Dmitry, just when shooting single, even with a nozzle, does not have enough pressure for the normal operation of automation.
                      1. DIMS
                        DIMS 25 September 2012 23: 55
                        0
                        Here is something else. The store must be regularly reloaded, cleaned, and the spring lubricated. Yes, and they need to be changed from time to time - sometimes in a long-used store, two cartridges stand next to each other and jam. It happened a couple of times with the "guard" shops
                  2. Novosibirsky
                    Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 41
                    +2
                    You will forgive me my hypothesis, but with this post you have shown that you wanted to find at least some kind of "byaka". )) Well, found, what's next? How critical is the delay when firing blanks for real combat? )) Personally, I am more concerned if we look for shortcomings in our "rifle-partron" system, insufficient quality of our cartridge, relatively high recoil, high sideways movement during bursts (although it is not very important what kind of fool is shooting bursts in real life) and dimensions of our paddle. The latter is just a guard.))
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 49
                      +1
                      One of the solutions is to change the butt angle + the recoil pad as a shock absorber.
                3. Novosibirsky
                  Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 35
                  0
                  Yes, exactly, due to the fact that less gas enters the vent pipe. I remembered the senior officers told.
              2. Alex 241
                Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 52
                +1
                You hit the foot of the bolt frame if the shutter does not close, the magazine is down, you jerk the bolt, the magazine in place and continue to fire, if you are stuck or a wedge of the bolt, you unfasten the magazine, put your gun on the bolt with your butt on the ground, and kick the bolt on the bolt.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 08
                  0
                  Exactly. On M4 or M16, the problem is solved, as a rule, with the movement of one finger wink I about it winked
                  Well, in fact, over the years, M-ka has become several orders of magnitude more reliable. Especially after she changed the barrel, strengthened the spring, gave other cartridges, and more recently, other stores. So the rammer in the latest models is more a tradition. However, extremely useful.
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 15
                    +1
                    Ginseng each sandpiper praises the swamp. soldier
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 32
                      +1
                      So I do not argue with that. Kalash is a great machine. But he needs to go much further ahead than the AK-12, much further.

                      The barrel to change, change materials, modularity, interchangeability of parts and more.
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 41
                        +2
                        Zhenya is modular for special forces. A soldier has a normal reliable balanced machine, an automatic soldier. Simple and unpretentious. And normal shooting training.
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 55
                        +1
                        You see, Sash. Modularity - it is also often suitable for the ordinary unit. The main thing is the possibility of such an option. And the interchangeability of parts is a separate, very painful topic for AK.

                        Weapons, in addition to simplicity and - really important thing - training a soldier, also need normal ergonomics and the ability to quickly and conveniently install the same collimators and sights.
                      3. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 01
                        0
                        EGGEN on ergonomics YES !!!!!!!!! But all these body kits? I don’t know; I don’t know. I do not know the NVP system, the guys come to the army, unlike us, for a period of one year, and you're talking about collimating and optical sights ...
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 30
                        +1
                        The collimator, still old Elbit-Falcon, I mastered right away. It is easier to learn than a metal sight, the speed of aiming increases two times. Here it is just more useful to conscripts than iron. You don’t even have to close your eyes wink

                        Service life is not so important, the main thing is the volume of classes, the number of firing, competent training and intensive. Now there seems to be some kind of progress in training with the Federation of practical shooting.

                        You see, Sash, AK-12 has long been done. In Israel. They are now armed with Colombians. It is called - Galil Ace. Under the much more wanted in the world 5.56 Nato and Soviet 7.62.



                        If Izhmash wants to live not only in the past, he needs not to overtake, but to overtake. Well, or at least keep up. And the fact that now is not a step forward, but a movement that they forgot to do 30 years ago.
                      5. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 32
                        0
                        Zhenya I'm sorry. I see the usual diopter sight.
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 45
                        +1
                        Sash, approx. I’ll show in another way - to make it clearer smile





                      7. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 48
                        +1
                        He took it simply and tore his whole soul !!!!!!!!!!!! But most of all I liked the sleeve for the store, in battle an irreplaceable thing !!!!!!!!!!!!! Picture, even print it and hang it on the wall .
                      8. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 01: 19
                        +2
                        Then I’ll hurt you a little bit more, you can wink

                        Here is the lineup



                        Throat, shutter lag



                        Under 7.62



                        It seems like a new version - they are already upgrading



                        Yellow bullshit ensures that there is no cartridge in the barrel. It’s necessary to bring it into a combat state - you just distort the shutter



                        In the colombian army





                        How do you like the size? wink





                        [img] http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg26/scaled.php?server=26&filename=user99gal
                        ilace.jpg & res = landing [/ img]




                        You can use barreled grenades. I talked about the shutter lag, the barrel is reinforced, sort of, you see the shutter yourself - a special strip closes the gap, and you can take it to either side.

                        This is me why the Ak-12 is outdated before it was born.
                      9. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 25
                        +1
                        Even the Russian flag is considered. wink
                      10. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 30
                        +3
                        To the question of the neck. It is unacceptable to us. We are planning to receive high-capacity stores for service, they are wide, they will not fit simply, plus no one has canceled disk drives. You never know what situation a fighter will fall into, you’ll gnaw your neck with your teeth to insert a magazine.
                      11. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 33
                        +1
                        I agree here.
                      12. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 01: 36
                        0
                        You can make it easily removable. Or somehow folding. The issue is technically quite solvable
                      13. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 38
                        0
                        Dim, and if you take it off and lose it? The disk was shot, and hi.
                      14. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 01: 43
                        +1
                        It's okay, it will still be possible to charge stores, just a little less convenient.
                      15. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 08
                        +1
                        Dim catches one another, changed one, you have to change another.
                      16. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 01: 59
                        0
                        It all depends on the design of the store. In practice - everyone uses standard cartridges for 30-35, coupled simply because they are more reliable and convenient. It’s easier to make a normal hitch for stores
                      17. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 58
                        +1
                        Yes, good, good.
                      18. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 05
                        0
                        Yes, this is poorly said !!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT anyway, this is in the hands, and the old AKM is behind.
                      19. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 04: 35
                        +2
                        By the way, do you see a hole in the fore-end? A button of such a laser-collimator sight is displayed there. Just under the finger



                        By the way, they didn’t quite correctly miss the laces with the button


                        [img] http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg546/scaled.php?server=546&filename=indumil
                        galilace.jpg & res = landing [/ img]


                        And these are Colombians with Tavors

                      20. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 57
                        +4
                        This is somehow how I imagine my ideal barrel, and the collimator would have been to it with a grenade launcher. Tasty model. And the barrel seems to be upgraded some kind of stainless steel, bulky DTK, again, no.
                      21. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 01: 21
                        +1
                        I think that everything is ok with the materials there - in any case, according to the reviews of one Bulgarian gunsmith about previous versions of Galilee - steel, he says, is good.
                      22. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Pimply
                        This is a separate, very painful topic for AK.

                        Well, at least kill me, I don’t understand what you mean!
                      23. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Pimply
                        change materials

                        I agree.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        interchangeability of parts

                        And then what is the problem? We have the same type of weapon in units. Take any AK, pull out any part, everything is at home. I don’t understand what you mean.
                      24. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 26
                        0
                        The shutter frame is not recommended to be changed. During operation, the frame and shutter are rubbed with copiers, problems are possible.
                      25. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 49
                        0
                        http://major-merkel.livejournal.com/2248.html

                        http://major-merkel.livejournal.com/2012.html

                        Here about this topic in detail, the person analyzed
                      26. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 48
                        0
                        Any part - and to another part in another machine change? 8)



                        Well, the consequences of installing a non-native part.

                      27. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 02
                        +2
                        Everything is clear what you mean, about wear. But is this just an AK problem? How are your rifles doing?
                      28. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 08
                        0
                        You didn’t understand a bit, during operation the parts are individually rubbed, even though there are micron tolerances, therefore you can’t change them. The result is as you see on the face. Although in our army they spoke more rudely, something on the face .. wink
                      29. bunta
                        bunta 26 September 2012 01: 20
                        +1
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Any part - and to another part in another machine change? 8)

                        In this case, not in any machine, but in a civilian Saigu, as I understand it, a military bolt was thrust. My answer to the crazy person:
                        "You fuss the shutter of a combat machine gun into the civilian version. Where the quality requirements are an order of magnitude lower. Let's just say that parts that have not passed the military acceptance requirements are transferred to the civilian assembly, which is not intended for automatic fire, and therefore has a greater spread in tolerances, less reliability, etc. In addition, take into account that factor, the culture of production at the plant has fallen sharply in the light of well-known events. So with a fool you can not only break a machine gun. "
                      30. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 03
                        0
                        This is not a civilian crazy.
                      31. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 09
                        0
                        It is strictly forbidden to change parts in weapons !!!!!!!! This is an axiom.
                      32. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 16
                        +1
                        In emka it was possible, without problems, to change the upper part from one machine to another.
                      33. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 21
                        +1
                        Zhen’s here is another case, the more you are familiar with the design, and understand everything.
                      34. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 24
                        +1
                        Yes, of course.
                      35. bunta
                        bunta 27 September 2012 23: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        It is strictly forbidden to change parts in weapons !!!!!!!! This is an axiom.


                        Interchangeability in mechanical engineering is like "Our Father" in theology. And even more so in weapons.


                        “The task of the defense industry is to ensure the possibility of a significant deployment of all products of the defense industry at the time of mobilization, using the assistance of other factories in cooperation. One of the powerful tools that facilitate the solution of this problem is the unification of products, the typification of their nodes, full implementation of the principles of interchangeability of parts in products, tools, normalization and standardization of materials ... Only the full application of these principles in the organization of production will fully ensure the mass production of defense products. "
                        (c) Order of the People's Commissar of the ObProm not long before the war. (Taken from MTKalashnikov Notes of the weapons designer.)

                        And further. The AK applies the principle of "hanging" parts. That is, the number of rubbing parts has been reduced to a minimum. And the friction area at the contact points is minimized as much as possible. What gives?
                        1. Reducing the requirements for precision manufacturing of the remaining dimensions of parts and, accordingly, production costs.
                        2. Increase free space between parts. Sand, as the most common reason for jamming, cannot catch in a wide space and at the moment of automation operation just flies out of the receiver.
                        3. Reduced lubrication requirements.

                        That's why even visually you can see the external differences on the shutters.
                  2. Novosibirsky
                    Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 45
                    +1
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Well, in fact, over the years, M-ka has become several orders of magnitude more reliable. Especially after she changed the barrel, strengthened the spring, gave other cartridges, and more recently, other stores. So the rammer in the latest models is more a tradition. However, extremely useful.

                    Well, if so ... Although, for whom it is good, bad, bad! )))
                2. Novosibirsky
                  Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 43
                  0
                  And often have you encountered such problems?
              3. Novosibirsky
                Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 34
                +2
                And in the course that AK in different types also has a missed cartridge, for example?

                I read about it once, and on our site. I myself have never seen or heard. I can’t imagine what state it is necessary to bring AK to, so that he wouldn’t send it.)) Drop a link to at least something for such a problem.
                Quote: Pimply
                Remind me how he is treated?

                Do a favor.
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 42
                  0
                  I HEAR IT FOR THE FIRST TIME,
          3. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 25 September 2012 22: 21
            0
            Quote: Pimply
            Why is the rammer so bothering you?

            This is how to ask how crutches, a completely stranger to us, can interfere with us:
            that he cannot walk without them? so this is precisely his problem - on our part, only condolences.
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 23
              +1
              The rammer will complicate the design, and increase its mass.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 51
                0
                Well, the question is how much. However, it doesn’t matter. I mean, AK also has undershot, and it is treated with much more crude methods, am I right? 8)
                1. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 25 September 2012 23: 07
                  0
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Well, the question is how much. However, it doesn’t matter. I mean, AK also has undershot, and it is treated with much more crude methods, am I right? 8)

                  For 4 years of the Army (2 years as a tankman in Hungary and 2 years as a hired man in Afghanistan), I saw a problem with the Ak-74 once: before the operation, the officer decided to check the fighter’s machine gun: he pulled the bolt — the problem, he gave the fighter on the head, who the machine was listed as the one who cleaned it (as I understand it, for the first time after firing in the previous operation) - and there is no problem.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 33
                    0
                    I recalled the problems more often. Which does not negate the fact that AK design is more reliable in comparison with arches
                  2. Novosibirsky
                    Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 46
                    +2
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    For 4 years of the Army (2 years as a tanker in Hungary and 2 years as a mercenary in Afghanistan), I saw the problem with the Ak-74 once:

                    So I actually about it. This is more likely an emergency than a norm.
                2. bunta
                  bunta 26 September 2012 01: 22
                  +2
                  Quote: Pimply
                  I mean, AK also has undershot

                  This is to what extent you need to shit AK so that he has a lack of message ?!
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 04
                    -1
                    Anything happens, right 8)?
            2. Pimply
              Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 50
              0
              I used the M16 in different forms for three years, in combat conditions - and most of the time the old, less reliable version. The only problem I had when using an old store with a weakened spring.
              1. Novosibirsky
                Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 50
                +1
                Quote: Pimply
                I used M16 in different forms for three years, in combat conditions - and most of the time the old one,

                If not a secret, in which ones. Snow, forests, swamps? And yet, for three years - just one problem - is also quite suitable.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 34
                  +1
                  Snow is not, although in some places it is also used in snow. But high humidity, rain and mud - five months in Israel is not uncommon. The Americans actively used the machine in the jungle.
  24. Bugor
    Bugor 25 September 2012 16: 47
    +1
    Quote: beard999
    What does Krasnogorsk have to do with it? In this case, we are talking about a private company LLC Zenit, organized in 1994 and which is located in Moscow, on Novokuznetskaya, d.

    Your "private firm" with the name of the factory will hardly be able to provide the fishermen with binoculars. Not to mention the GOZ. At Novokuznetsk, optics can and can be made, but it's hard .... :)
    1. Bugor
      Bugor 25 September 2012 17: 17
      0
      Thesis: Guns should be lightweight and compact. Refute. Reasonedly.
      My first thesis was deleted, by accident ...
      Thesis 2: Weapons must exceed the enemy TTX, or at least not lose to the enemy.
      Thesis 3: Weapons should surpass any that appeared within 5 years.
      If I'm wrong - write to Modera. It's just that ... But I will stand my ground.
      The letter ё do not forget ..... :) :)
  25. Mr. Truth
    Mr. Truth 25 September 2012 20: 49
    0
    Need a new cartridge. absolutely new. Americans in 70-80 made 6x45 mm cartridges, you can make a modern analogue. then it will definitely be possible to speak of superiority.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 25 September 2012 21: 02
      +1
      With this cartridge, too, not everything is clear. However, one must at least experimentally torture him and other options
      1. Mr. Truth
        Mr. Truth 26 September 2012 00: 33
        +1
        Quote: Pimply
        With this cartridge, too, not everything is clear

        Everything is easier than some inflate.
        why 6 mm?
        the answer is
        1) in such a caliber, a rather heavy bullet with high externally ballistic characteristics and with a rather high speed is obtained.
        for comparison, for drag functions G1 of 0.48-0.5 for a 6 mm whole shell, a mass in the region of 6,5 g is needed (the speed while maintaining the optimal recoil momentum is about 850-900 capes (automatic / machine gun)) for 6,5 it is necessary in the region of 7,75, 8-790 gr. The speed will be 800-6,8 capes, 7 or XNUMX mm, all without words is clear.
        2) the mass of the cartridge will be in the region of 15-16 g, with a metal-plastic sleeve in the region of 11-12.5 g (here you have the NATO cartridge by weight)
        3) the energy of the steering wheel at a distance of 1000 m is not inferior to the energy of 7,62 cartridge screw. and intermediaries ammo superior is simply unbelievable.
        4) one cartridge.
        IMHO
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 50
          +2
          I have just a few questions at this point. The topic is ripe
  26. SenyaYa
    SenyaYa 25 September 2012 20: 50
    -1
    Fuck us grandmas to spend on a new Ak when the warehouses are bursting with Soviet stocks ... why grandmas have nowhere to go ?????? It’s better to order 1 more than 400))) For if NATO will fly above us on AK planes we will not be able to help)
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 25 September 2012 21: 05
      +1
      In addition to NATO aircraft, there are other urgent needs, don’t you?
  27. bask
    bask 25 September 2012 21: 12
    0
    The article is controversial. As long as there is a draft army in Russia, a non-professional army can’t get by without an AK! And Senya needs a new AK to shoot accurately, so that the barrel does not throw from side to side. And warehouses with AK Senya are needed to arm you and me in case of war with China.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 25 September 2012 21: 18
      +7
      I will say this - you can properly prepare a recruit with any rifle - the main thing is to cook it normally, give a lot to shoot, and most importantly - so that officers and sergeants do not hesitate. A soldier with a gun should eat, sleep, go to the toilet. And with this approach, such questions will not arise
      1. dracosha-andrew
        dracosha-andrew 25 September 2012 21: 27
        0
        I agree completely. AK or SKS or, even, a small thing, for a draftee anyway. This is essentially. militias. Here are the pros - yes, it matters to them.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 25 September 2012 21: 59
          +1
          You do not understand me. I believe that the conscript should be given as simple and miserable as possible - the approach is not correct. I believe that it should initially be prepared with good, high-quality weapons - and cook well and carefully.
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 12
            0
            Zhenya, do you know how much was allocated per year according to the order of the Ministry of Defense of cartridges for practical shooting for a soldier of military service in the USSR?
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 52
              +1
              I know. A paratrooper friend once told how they made a report on the cartridges at the firing. And they still had a situation. The rest shot significantly less.
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 58
                +1
                Liners is a separate song wink
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 10
                  +1
                  Yeah, especially when he gathered them 29, and it was necessary 30. And he was looking for her in the dark 8)
                  That's something, but we shot at will. In different forms and poses. The only thing that was seriously driven into us was shoot solo. Never on the machine. And they were right - the accuracy is very different. A quick single shooting at a pace - not much different from the machine gun.
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 16
                    0
                    US is the other way around, if the exercise is shooting with a burst, the automatic machine will fail to shoot solo with an interpreter.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 35
                      0
                      After the Yom Kippur War (by the way, today, by the way), we calculated how much each enemy soldier killed had. Something about 15000 rounds came out. Found that a bit too much. And banned kherach machine gun. Which sharply increased accuracy and increased the percentage of hits. Well, and cartridges were saved 8))
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 43
                        +1
                        At that time, the instruction on the shooting training of the USSR Armed Forces was predominant.
                      2. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 30
                        +2
                        And it still dominates here! )))
                      3. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 35
                        0
                        You know how to please! FLOATS SAILED AND IN THE MIDDLE RISED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1
                      4. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 08
                        +3
                        Come on? Where did I get into it? laughing I served in the 90s, I studied on this textbook! I’m sure things are still there. I will be pleasantly surprised if something has changed. And this is the Higher Military Command)) So do not be surprised at anything.



                        And why change that? That weapon doesn’t change ?! The line is still the same: PM-AK-RPK-PK-SVD! All! Everything else is just cops and specials.
                      5. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 11
                        +1
                        I had a red cover, so here I went around you wink
                      6. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 37
                        +2
                        This? laughing laughing laughing ..............................

                      7. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 41
                        0
                        Tochnik, but the year of publication is different, I admit I do not remember already. In my 1973.
                      8. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 05
                        +1
                        At home lay a little booklet. Well, in general, there is something
                      9. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 29
                        +2
                        Quote: Pimply
                        And banned kherach machine gun. Which sharply increased accuracy and increased the percentage of hits. Well, and cartridges were saved 8))

                        The axiom of specials is solitary fluent. In the field or in the mountains, BC will end, that's all, you're a corpse. Saving and accuracy.
                  2. DIMS
                    DIMS 25 September 2012 23: 18
                    +1
                    Yes, these officers are kidding. You can write off sleeves, I don’t remember the percentage. Well, if you don’t feel like fooling around with papers, you can get hold of a stock of cartridges.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 36
                      +1
                      I’ll tell him one day. But on the phone laughing
  28. Civil
    Civil 25 September 2012 21: 13
    0
    need to upgrade and think about new principles
  29. grizzlir
    grizzlir 25 September 2012 21: 20
    0
    From the very beginning, as an AK with a digital designation 12 appeared in the hands of Rogozin, it was clear that all the noise around this weapon was clearly superfluous and created solely for political reasons.There is a law for the appearance of such gallant articles and statements. The closer to the elections, the more pathos and promises. After the election, all promises come to naught and everything starts to be forgotten. What is surprising, most believe in these promises, I don’t even know by naivety or lack of anything that.
  30. I think so
    I think so 25 September 2012 21: 34
    -1
    The current mediocrity from armed affairs, apparently, is haunted by the laurels of the ingenious designer Kalashnikov. They just climb over themselves, trying to advertise their gray and mediocre designs and squeeze into a series. Pitiful attempts. No advertising can replace the real capabilities of weapons. Having achieved half a percent improvement in one place, these woes of the designer will lose several hundred percent in many other places during the production, operation and reliability of weapons. And where did people’s conscience disappear?
    1. DIMS
      DIMS 25 September 2012 21: 43
      0
      But doesn’t it seem to you that the truly brilliant gunsmith was the one who first took the stone into his own hands and brought it down on the enemy’s skull? That really reliable weapon was cheap in production and operation.
      And everything else, created later, is the usual gray and mediocre designs that will never reach the level of a stone.

      AK is already outdated, you have to put up with it. As previously outdated, the three-line is also a very reliable and frankly, brilliant weapon.
      1. I think so
        I think so 25 September 2012 21: 54
        0
        Only a narrow-minded person in this matter can speak (or rather repeat the mantra of mediocrities trying to push their dullness into the series) about the "obsolescence" of the Kalashnikov assault rifle. If a weapon fulfills its function, reliably, cheaply in production, has qualities at the level of the best modern models, then why is it "obsolete"? Turn on the dear brain and perhaps you will see how you and your consciousness are being manipulated. But what am I talking about? Usually people like you do not admit their stupidity, they would rather accuse the whole world of stupidity (the whole world is fighting almost today with Kalashnikovs), their noses will consider themselves super duper spktsy, who supposedly knows something more than everyone else. Once again, I recommend turning on the brain if there is one ...
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 09
          0
          Quote: I think so
          If a weapon fulfills its function, reliably, cheaply in production, has qualities at the level of the best modern models, then why is it "obsolete"?


          To begin with, he is NOT at the level of the best modern designs.

          1) Modularity - many modern machines now resemble legos. You can easily disassemble them, change the caliber, make the floor left-handed or right-handed in a very short period of time. AK has all kinds of problems with this
          2) Ergonomics and modern materials. Here Kalash lagged behind generations.
          3) accuracy. Many modern samples show reliability at least at the AK level. And accuracy is higher
          4) barrel wear
          5) Interchangeability of parts

          There is still much to list.
          1. bunta
            bunta 25 September 2012 22: 52
            0
            You would not be dishonored, dear.

            Quote: Pimply
            1) Modularity - many modern machines now resemble legos. You can easily disassemble them, change the caliber, make the floor left-handed or right-handed in a very short period of time. AK has all kinds of problems with this

            The fighter should shoot, and not engage in assembling the disassembly of the lego. Weapons must be of the same type. If you pick up the weapon of a murdered comrade, you should not be surprised why there is a different caliber on his assault rifle, and the bolt handle is on the wrong side. For while you will be surprised, it will be your last surprise in life.


            Quote: Pimply
            2) Ergonomics and modern materials. Here Kalash lagged behind generations

            There is mass production and there is tuning. Nothing prevents you from tailoring a serial product to a specific fighter. If this fighter is a unit commando. And he will act in one-time operations within the operational limits of his base. In this regard (tuning) AK capabilities are just much higher than other brands. :) The armament of the groups should be the same. This is the basics


            On the remaining points, such nonsense that I do not even want to comment.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 21
              -3
              Respected. Firstly - do not poke.

              Secondly, I rely on my three years of experience in military operations. And, apparently, other countries also rely on it, because all the main new trunks possess these properties.

              "Lego" exists not to indulge in assembling-disassembling, but to increase the mobility of the unit. Going out on a mission, a unit, depending on the tasks, can quickly change caliber, which takes a couple of minutes. Another 10 minutes - zeroing. And all this without the participation of a gunsmith. Why do you think this is increasingly becoming a stable requirement in tenders? That is, the whole world is one smart one?

              And how would you not take into account that your friend can be left-handed? And such - every eighth. And in the unlikely event that you have to pick up his trunk, you can rearrange your hand for half a minute on modern machines - are you up to date?

              Quote: bunta
              There is mass production and there is tuning. Nothing prevents you from tailoring a serial product to a specific fighter. If this fighter is a unit commando. And he will act in one-time operations within the operational limits of his base. In this regard (tuning) AK capabilities are just much higher than other brands. :) The armament of the groups should be the same. This is the basics


              OK. Is tuning a trunk replacement, which is often and much said by Russian AK users? Did you tune up a more convenient fuse and shutter, the neck of the store?
              Is the rusting parts and weight of the machine tuned? And yes, weapons, in most cases, should be of the same type - I completely agree with this.
              1. Novosibirsky
                Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 33
                +2
                Quote: Pimply
                Tuning Does Rusting Parts

                Well, you don’t talk about rusting AK. Well, not smart to read, honestly. We do not have any units where AK rusts.
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 37
                  0
                  If there is already probably cleaned wink
                2. Pimply
                  Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 53
                  0
                  Anything can happen

                  1. Novosibirsky
                    Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 39
                    +1
                    And where is the rust? It is a good fit AK. Erased coverage is simple, from frequent use and all.
              2. bunta
                bunta 26 September 2012 00: 46
                +1
                Quote: Pimply
                Respected. Firstly - do not poke.


                Not at all:
                Quote: bunta
                You would not be dishonored, dear.


                Well, if other countries rely on your experience of military operations, then I rely on my education. Dragunov and Kalashnikov also gave lectures to us.

                At the expense of modularity - is it not better to spend 10 minutes not to replace the barrel, but to sleep normally? What does it mean to change the caliber? Change barrel with caliber 5,45 to 9? It also means counting the wearable ammunition. And do not mix up stores. It also means at the critical moment of the battle, remember that today you have not the usual cartridge, with the usual ballistics, but the subsonic 9mm. But these are all flowers. Compared to reliability. Where it is possible for a person to manually change the table, nature always reserves the right to do the same. In any case, the first phase is to separate the trunk without asking permission. Well, the most important argument is engineering - it is not possible to create a weapon with a removable caliber because it will not be optimal. In addition to the barrel will need a replacement shutter. For small calibers, weapons will be overweight. A striking example of PM or PS. Great weapon but a slight increase in cartridge power
                and that’s all - the Roche theme.

                Changing the barrel is possible only along the length of the barrel. But this is no less dubious innovation.

                Now about left-handed, right-handed people. So, apparently, the German army consisted of left-handed people and only every eighth was right-handed. And throughout this is the MP-40 and STG-44 shutter handle which was on the left. Unfortunately, the bullet flies faster than half a minute for which you need to reinstall the handle.


                Threat Take back your words on interchangeability and barrel wear. Right word, this is such dumb nonsense.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 26 September 2012 01: 36
                  0
                  Why?

                  For interchangeability, I quoted the photographs. References

                  If you rummage around, I will dig a document of the Ministry of Internal Affairs on the resources of the trunk.

                  Well, I’m not the only one advocating for interchangeable trunks, for example.

                  http://k-a-r-d-e-n.livejournal.com/8016.html
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 43
                    0
                    Eugene is not the case to run around the battlefield with a bunch of glands. Each platoon has a shooter, a sniper. Grenade launcher.
                    1. DIMS
                      DIMS 26 September 2012 01: 48
                      +1
                      No, modularity is a necessary thing. For example, art. officers, in armor one configuration is needed, on the KNP second, and when with reconnaissance spotter go third
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 00
                        0
                        Dim, yes you have a whole gun wink Joke. You know the Officer, first of all, you need a good connection with your subordinates, topographic location, and you can water from AKM too, or whatever is at hand.
                      2. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 02: 07
                        +1
                        It depends. You will fly on the march and fight back as you can. Self-defense on fire. Different things happen
                      3. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 15
                        +1
                        This is our army mentality, die but obey the order.
                    2. Pimply
                      Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 08
                      0
                      There is no doubt. For example, the Marxists, we had 70% of the destroyed enemy. I’m talking about something else - modularity, for example, is needed in a situation when you go to a village or a city one day, and to the mountains the next day.
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 17
                        0
                        Eh Zhen, we have one principle, the more BK took. The more chances there are. But there are sound points in your arguments, and I agree with that.
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 27
                        0
                        Bq, medicines - people always dragged just a double dose.

                        I had an unloading clogged with a double portion of dressings and stuff, including unaccounted neck collars and stuff. The stores in each pocket were worn not by 7, but by 10-12.

                        It is not only me. Russian experts say the same thing.

                        http://k-a-r-d-e-n.livejournal.com/8016.html
                  2. psdf
                    psdf 26 September 2012 16: 37
                    0
                    This author clearly writes that it is necessary for **** *** **. And the article and discussion go around the mass army machine gun.
                    Structures like **** *** ** all over the world and in our country are arming separately and according to other principles unacceptable to the main part of the army.
        2. DIMS
          DIMS 25 September 2012 22: 16
          0
          Well, turn on the brain yourself, the stone is the crown of reliability and efficiency.

          Have you ever been shot from an AK-74 in a forest with undergrowth at you? Somersaulting in flight bullets are very cool buzzing.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 25 September 2012 22: 40
            -1
            Quote: DIMS
            Have you ever been shot from an AK-74 in a forest with undergrowth at you? Somersaulting in flight bullets are very cool buzzing.

            What years is this information from? Bullets with a displaced center of gravity (especially subject to rebound) were withdrawn from service in 1984 (more precisely, they were no longer issued from warehouses). The rest, by rebound, are not different from bullets of other weapons.
            Or do you have additional information on this topic?
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 47
              +1
              My acquaintance of the paratrooper told me that they dug out cartridges in such cases, grind off the bullet head.
            2. DIMS
              DIMS 25 September 2012 22: 47
              0
              This is from 1999. A normally flying bullet will not buzz like that.
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 18
                0
                She does not buzz, she buzzes, a very low sound.
              2. bunta
                bunta 25 September 2012 23: 21
                +2
                It is in the underbrush that it will buzz. Only they do not somersault, but describe a cone. The "shift" of the "center of gravity" is not a special thought of the designers, but a feature of the small caliber of the bullet. The bullet has two centers - gravity and aerodynamic drag. The further they are from each other, the more stable the bullet is in flight. For small caliber bullets, these two centers are dangerously close. Therefore, it is enough to touch the petal, as the bullet begins its precession (rotation in a cone), which causes this w-w-w-w. In this case, the trajectory of the bullet itself changes slightly.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 38
                  +2
                  All the "fun" begins when a bullet of a similar caliber — for example, 5.56 — hits a person. She begins to walk there, especially if she stumbles upon a bone. The inlet is usually very small. But the day off can be, say, in the shoulder (when hitting the leg) and be the size of a fist.
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 53
                    +1
                    Zhenya will have fun when hit by any caliber, at least 22
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 34
                      +1
                      I had such a pistol at one time 8))). But 5.56 has seen a certain number of times in person.
                2. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 52
                  0
                  True, I got on RMB, it was in the forest, I did not hear a buzzing, but it was buzzing like a swarm of bumblebees.
              3. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 25 September 2012 23: 26
                -1
                Quote: DIMS
                A normally flying bullet will not buzz like that.

                If this is a bullet with a shifted center of gravity, then it can kill and rebound several times from obstacles, and all other bullets that come with cartridges for the AK-74 behave quite comparable to other calibers. Moreover, having a bullet speed of 900m / s, you should not expect a strong rebound (the bullet, after all, is not a ball from the bearing, but a shell with a lead-steel filling).
            3. Novosibirsky
              Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 05
              +2
              As far as I know, bullets with a displaced center of gravity have never been produced in the USSR. This was the name of an ordinary 5,45 caliber bullet, due to the fact that its center of gravity is located closer to the base, and not to the tip, and because of this, it flies, as it is called, "on the border of aerodynamic stability" is it? It seems so. The designers themselves laughed in the USSR at this myth, "about the bullet." And they called it jokingly "a bullet with a displaced center of conscience"))
              That is why 5,45 begins to tumble, as your opponent wrote above, after touching the grass, small twigs that even the slightest touch of a bullet in flight takes it out of aerodynamic stability, and then somersault, where God sends it.
              Yes, and the striking effect of 5,45 and 7,62 are inferior to 5,56. 7,62 the truth takes others - high power.

              Link here, very useful, about the damaging effect of bullets, check out.

              http://ohrana.ru/usefull/articles/1476/
              1. DIMS
                DIMS 25 September 2012 23: 13
                0
                I heard there are 5.45 cartridges in which this shortcoming has been eliminated. True, I have not met.
              2. bunta
                bunta 25 September 2012 23: 29
                +3
                Quote: NovoSibirets
                further tumbling where God will send.

                You are wrong, the trajectory changes very slightly. There are test frames. It will not give a gyroscopic effect either tumbling or wherever God sends. But if a dense barrier, then the usual rebound for any projectile.
                1. Novosibirsky
                  Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 37
                  +1
                  Quote: bunta
                  You are wrong, the trajectory changes very slightly. There are test frames.

                  If you are about those frames that I saw, then those trials are crafty. There, an obstacle is installed directly in front of the target, only three meters away. Of course, for three meters the bullet will deviate slightly. But if the 5,45 bullet meets an obstacle at the beginning of the trajectory, then the deviation is already significant.
              3. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 25 September 2012 23: 58
                -1
                Quote: NovoSibirets
                As far as I know, bullets with a displaced center of gravity have never been produced in the USSR. This was the name of an ordinary 5,45 caliber bullet, due to the fact that its center of gravity is located closer to the base, and not to the tip, and because of this, it flies, as it is called, "on the border of aerodynamic stability" is it? It seems so. The designers themselves laughed in the USSR at this myth, "about the bullet." And they called it jokingly "a bullet with a displaced center of conscience"))

                I disagree. For the sake of interest, I sawed such a bullet with a file. It is a hollow bullet body (shell), and inside it is a lead core. The shape of the core is peculiar: a cylinder with longitudinal blades (if you look at the end, then a cross). Moreover: one scapula is long, two are of medium length, and on the opposite side of the long one, the scapula is almost absent. That is, if you look at the end of the sawn bullet, then a long blade presses the lead core against the wall of the shell, and a large gap to the other wall. What we get as a result: the bullet, after leaving the barrel, prowls its nose in a circle and, when it hits the body, leaves in the direction of the greatest resistance (where it snagged better with its nose). The fighters said that there were cases when a bullet hitting the wrist tore the arm out of the shoulder, along the way, grinding the bone along which it went. Initially, the AK-74 assault rifle was called a "wound-excluding" assault rifle, since in 9 out of 10 cases it led to death after a bullet hit the body (for comparison, AK-AKM [7.62] - in 3 out of 10) ... But under pressure from the Red Cross, this was covered up: since 1984, zinc with those cartridges in Afghanistan practically did not occur anymore (a couple of packs could get on zinc, the rest were intact).
                But the Americans went a slightly different way:
                in the first 5,56 of them, the barrel had a sloping cut and the bullet, after leaving the barrel, had very low stability and when it hit an obstacle, it simply tumbled. Unlike ours, at close range it was extremely ineffective (it pierced the body and flew further), and ours was deadly at any distance. True, later, the barrel cut was changed to steeper.
                1. Novosibirsky
                  Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 42
                  +2
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  It is a hollow bullet body (shell), and inside it is a lead core. The shape of the core is peculiar: a cylinder with longitudinal blades (if you look at the end, then the cross). Moreover: one scapula is long, two are of medium length, and on the opposite side of the long, the scapula is almost absent. That is, if you look at the end face of the sawn pool, then a long blade presses the lead core against the wall of the shell, and there is a large gap to the other wall.

                  I have never heard of anything like this. It would be interesting to see.
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  What we get as a result: a bullet, after leaving the barrel, scouring its nose in a circle

                  So does any pointed bullet. This is her normal movement.
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  The fighters said that there were cases when a bullet hitting a hand pulled out a hand from the shoulder, along the path of grinding the bone along which there was

                  Oh oh oh .., to put it mildly, resembles a soldier's bike. Well, remember.
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 50
                    +1
                    Something like that ...........
  31. bask
    bask 25 September 2012 21: 50
    0
    The ali stirrer is not a three-way question. The question is why in the 80s our guys conscripts successfully slaughtered Mujahideen with AK. By the way, they are true professional killers, but now they don’t. Mountain training like a film of the 9th company, it’s 6 months and the price is really uprated. but it’s fixable. Yes, for “specialists,” specialized weapons are needed. A promising caliber, it seems to me, is 8,6 mm.
    1. Novosibirsky
      Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 21: 57
      +2
      Quote: bask
      Promising caliber seems to me 8,6 mm.

      Wow! Maybe they wanted to write 6,8? For what tasks is such a caliber needed? Such a caliber is only for special tasks.
      I'd rather pull 8k 5,45 on myself than 4-8,6. )) If for me, then the Amer classic 5,56 is the most. Do not need anymore. It solves its tasks. IMHO.
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 48
        0
        You know the Americans are now converging in caliber 6.5.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 21
          +1
          They experiment a lot there.
        2. Novosibirsky
          Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 56
          +1
          Probably sawing a budget? )) Although, with an increase in infantry armor protection - it can be true. Something they come to 7,62! laughing
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 36
            0
            Well, they have had it for a long time. 7.62 has many objective flaws, with a number of undeniable advantages.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 11
      +1
      And even earlier, the Germans were hollowed out from the PPSh, and the French - and even completely from single-shot rifles, no?
      1. Odessa
        Odessa 25 September 2012 22: 18
        +2
        Pimply,
        and the French - and all of the single-shot rifles, no?

        Nevertheless, the paddlers are delighted with Saiga, I don’t know whether they transferred or not, but they were going to acquire these weapons for their army.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 58
          +1
          For the army? Saiga? And proof? Although for some units - it is possible. Saiga is a good beast, the main thing is to collect it in more than one place 8)

          By the way, did you see the new Famas?

          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 08
            +1
            Famas, FN I do not perceive on an intuitive level.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 41
              +1
              They say that not the worst trunk, but - also not particularly
          2. Odessa
            Odessa 25 September 2012 23: 13
            +1
            Pimply,
            I saw, but did not hold in my hands.
          3. Novosibirsky
            Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 02
            +2
            The loaf is unitary, well, here's how ..., everything is indisputably cool, beautiful. Squirrel in the eye probably, even at night)) But where to get from a kind of banal hypothesis? I just can’t imagine what will happen if all this beauty is poyuzat in the winter near Novosibirsk. Or crawl with mud in his belly ... Okay, plastic, it’s now reliable, but there’s still some kind of electronics under the thumb of his left hand ..
            I do not know ...
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 55
              +1
              Surprise, but now they are doing marvelously reliable electronics. And they experience it under extreme conditions, as a rule

              Another version

              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 09
                +1
                Zhen, you probably don’t know a joke about an expensive Japanese saw, and harsh Siberian men wink

                Not ... not that ... how they cut it down with an ax.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 26 September 2012 01: 37
                  +1
                  Oh, I know. About the sawmill and Wow, b ... I? wink
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 46
                    +1
                    If you wish, we’ll cut the atomic bomb with a jigsaw, remember FOUR TANKISTS AND DOG — how they sawed off the trunk of a T-34-85 barrel.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 10
                      +1
                      Sasha, I believe. Our guys were funny too - they managed to turn the hammer over. Twice. 8) I'm talking about the fact that you can break everything. But, if prepared correctly - it will be rather rare
                      1. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 02: 13
                        +2
                        What is this hammer ... BRDM put on its side, that's cool
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 17
                        0
                        M113 dropped too. But the hammer is more fun than 8))
                      3. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 02: 22
                        +1
                        The funniest thing to look at the driver of the Urals, when in the process of pulling it out of the dirt with a tank, the car is first pulled out of the bumper, and then the front axle. There are enough talents in any army
                      4. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 29
                        0
                        Dim and you had it? Directly under the carbon paper wink We had a camel from tar pulled by the Urals. A poor beast.
                      5. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 02: 33
                        0
                        Apparently this is a common way to control the rear.
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 32
                        0
                        The most beautiful thing I saw was how something happened to the brakes of our second armored jeep, we go to meet them at night - and they have sparks from under the wheels into the sky. Sur full, space. And they are half asleep. We caught up with them, slowed down - they are half asleep. Yes, they say, but we think something - that it smells like barbecue? And the brake discs themselves shine red at night
                      7. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 36
                        +1
                        We are flying from flights in the KAMAZ tractor for a penny and followed by the T-72, we wave it, ahead, it buzzes like a steam locomotive, in the left lane and overtakes, you had to see the face of the penny driver wink
                      8. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 22
                        0
                        Dim and drown SHILKA, and force to order to pull out wink
                      9. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 02: 30
                        +1
                        Shoot from a self-propelled gun at full charge, trying to get it from the pusher. They tried to verify the legend. Well, the division commander stopped the experiment on time with the distribution of gingerbread to two lieutenants
                      10. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 37
                        +1
                        Dim when fired, the tank moves on the truck.
                      11. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 19
                        0
                        Eugene, here, the main thing, everywhere you need skill, training, training soldier
  32. sergant89
    sergant89 25 September 2012 21: 53
    0
    You look at the sniper in the photo, what a shame, and about the Americans, whatever initiative weapons they have, they not only modernize and improve, but also put him in the army.
    1. Novosibirsky
      Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 22: 12
      +3
      Well, you are sovereign! )) What is this sniper for you? This is a biathlon rifle! laughing
      It is not clear the truth, on which next to AK put ..? What would AK against its background look better or what? )))
    2. DIMS
      DIMS 25 September 2012 22: 19
      +1
      Quote: sergant89
      but also Put him in the army.

      Here is the key phrase. And not only in small arms.
  33. Alex 241
    Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 07
    +2
    You know, according to Discovery, the GUYS WITH GUNS were broadcast, they took our SAYGU for the sample, changed the barrel, worked on the USM tuning, kit pso. We shot a series of 5 rounds at a distance of 50 meters, from 5 bullets two entered one into one.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 29
      +1
      A proper trunk is a very good, fit business. Especially with the right cartridges. Because saiga doesn’t seem to eat everything
  34. bask
    bask 25 September 2012 22: 14
    0
    Dims for the draft army. Until it is invented that something fundamentally new can not be managed without AK, and it has not become obsolete. By selling in the USA, the carbine ,, Saiga ,, is the same as AK. Private merchants are not fools, de ... they won’t take it.
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 21
      +2
      I agree if I prefer the good old AKM. I was graduated from college in 1962, and I was born in 1967, not a single delay or refusal, with a 25-meter shot fell into the matchbox with the first shot. Show me an analogue of another weapon that has been such a long time remained in combat ready condition.
      1. DIMS
        DIMS 25 September 2012 22: 31
        0
        Where is he in the army, this AKM? According to the state, only intelligence, with PBS. The rest is trophies conducted through the RAV service
        1. Novosibirsky
          Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 23: 09
          +2
          Kneading will begin - the warehouses will open. I am sure. Will demand from the fronts to provide - will begin to issue.
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 25 September 2012 22: 44
        0
        Quote: Alex 241
        I agree, if I prefer the good old AKM.

        In Afghanistan, he was friends with the guys from the battalion intelligence. Their commander went with AKM for operations (7,62).
      3. Novosibirsky
        Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 22: 45
        +1
        Quote: Alex 241
        I agree, if I prefer the good old AKM.

        I think, yes ...
        We have no alternative! Of course I would take a captured AK, under NATO 5,56, but how to feed it in real business ..? So AK, and AK again ...))
    2. DIMS
      DIMS 25 September 2012 22: 29
      0
      Well I do not know. Israelis do not seem like idiots, but for their draft the army is constantly taking something more advanced into service.
      Maybe it’s just that our conscripts are not being trained well enough, and therefore such a question while still not on the agenda?
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 25 September 2012 22: 53
        +2
        Quote: DIMS
        The Israelis do not look like idiots, however, for their draft army they are constantly taking something more advanced into service.

        For the conscript, it’s understandable, but I’m wondering what the Israeli special forces are with there?
        1. DIMS
          DIMS 25 September 2012 22: 58
          +2
          Special Forces is a special business. Sometimes it becomes necessary not to burn on sleeves. They will not pick them up.
          1. Odessa
            Odessa 25 September 2012 23: 10
            +1
            DIMS,
            They will not pick them up.

            Catcher. fellow
            1. DIMS
              DIMS 25 September 2012 23: 25
              +1
              What if someone smart gets caught and concludes that if anyone uses sleeveless cartridges, then only special forces?
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 27
                0
                Caseless have Heckler and Koch g9
                1. DIMS
                  DIMS 25 September 2012 23: 32
                  0
                  There were also experimental ones, including those with arrow-shaped bullets, with two bullets in the cartridge. Once the Americans held a competition.
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 44
                    +1
                    DIMA is very interesting, is there a reference?
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 01
                      +1
                      Sasha, if I’m not mistaken, it’s
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 06
                        +3
                        This SPEL (arrow-shaped striking element) is prohibited by the Geneva Convention, was used in unguided rockets. Hard thing.
                      2. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 00: 18
                        +1
                        To be more precise, in conventional shells with GGE (ready-to-use striking elements) 3Ш1 and 3Ш2.
                        But there they are much coarser worked like nails
                      3. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 29
                        +1
                        Dim I have one such "carnation" stored as a memory.
                      4. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 00: 38
                        +3
                        It was a promising thing.
                        They were offered to use them right above the attacking tanks. By the method of movable fire zone. No BMPT is needed, any idiot leaning out with a grenade launcher turned into a hedgehog.
                        But at first, the tankers refused to go under the firing shells during the exercises, although it was safe, well, and then they were completely forbidden.
                        By the way, the Abkhazians in 2008 discovered an abandoned Georgian battery with a certain number 3SH1 of the Czech Republic, but the topic somehow did not develop
                      5. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 42
                        0
                        I personally saw the mown hectare of the field with these nails as a result of the S-8 strike ................. since then I have kept the carnations.
                      6. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 00: 45
                        +2
                        So you had that too? In principle, that was how it should have been
                      7. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 57
                        +2
                        Yes, we were shown the effect of this munition at the training ground. And the Friend in Afghanistan was covered with friendly fire, hid under a SHISHI, clinging to a cardan. But his cheek broke.
                      8. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 01: 08
                        +1
                        Bad luck. Here they really somersault when hit in the body and cause lacerations. Therefore, they banned
                      9. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 12
                        0
                        Dima, God forbid, I still remember that field. And no atomic bomb.
                      10. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 16
                        0
                        I personally saw the mown hectare of the field with these nails as a result of the S-8 strike


                        And where did you see it, if not a secret?
                      11. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 29
                        0
                        Landfill DVVAIU

                        MINIGAN GSHG was also shown there. Remember how Schwartz has in the second terminator, only a block of four barrels. Caliber 7.62, this device can be hidden under a cloak.
                      12. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 45
                        0
                        hi ..............................................
                      13. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 54
                        +1
                        And also shells for working on spy balls, it breaks through the shell and explodes inside. By the way, this was a comical incident. On the director’s desk, they put a bucket of gasoline, a tablet with tissue paper in front of it, loaded a cannon, a volley, a flash, a rattle, and a man runs by the bunker. with a scooter, a helmet like Morgunov’s, like in a Caucasian captive, runs, drags a scooter and yells foolishly: Will you guys still shoot? I broke through something like a cordon .. wink Since I see Morgunov in this helmet, laughter has been dismantled.
                      14. bunta
                        bunta 26 September 2012 02: 38
                        0
                        Damn, I also have a joke of humor. The forum has only army humor, and I have student. It has nothing to do with Rogozin. If I tell her here I will not be banned?
                      15. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 13
                        0
                        I saw how this works in real life. Just the one that Schwartz has. After the machine worked for one house, all the militants hiding in it, except four, got out of that block.
                      16. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 24
                        0
                        GSH Zhen? Or a minigun?
                      17. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 36
                        +1
                        Volcano. We were with the air defense guys. М163 "Volcano"

                      18. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 41
                        0
                        A familiar piece of iron, Zhenya is the base of insults, but our GSh-6-23, not to mention 6-30, is better.
                      19. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 44
                        +1
                        It is quite possible, here's the thing, and I don’t slack multi-barrel machine guns. GS, as I recall, is on powder gases, and the volcano is on electricity.
                      20. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 50
                        +2
                        But you say you won’t fuck it up. Yes Jack is absolutely right, you have an electric start, and we have a pyro-charge. By the way, I have a funny story with that, but not here, if you want to write something in PM.
                      21. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 55
                        +1
                        Yeah, Sash, with pleasure.
                        But the thing is really hellish. Something on the order of 4000 rounds per minute. Brrr
                      22. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 59
                        0
                        9000-12000 per minute !!!!!!!!!
                      23. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 03: 05
                        0
                        Sasha, I don’t argue, but it’s quite possible that something else is already in service - something from the 60 of the last century 8) But she fried then - Mama Do not Cry.
                        Browning did not make as much impression, although it was also a test machine. Since World War I, in fact, he lived with minimal changes, and is still alive. Here he was zamorko - everyone could take it apart, but collect ...
                      24. Odessa
                        Odessa 26 September 2012 00: 52
                        0
                        DIMS,
                        http://www.waronline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=175176&sid=e0b6391f5c1f42cfeb600d
                        cbe907e70f
                        what tankers are armed with, except tanks.
                      25. DIMS
                        DIMS 26 September 2012 01: 05
                        0
                        I am not a tanker, an artilleryman. But the topic is close. Both tankers and self-propelled gunners need something different compared to the infantry rifle.
                        Thanks for the link
                      26. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 26 September 2012 00: 15
                        0
                        Under the automatic Shiryaev
                      27. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 17
                        0
                        It’s a pity it is impossible to increase. But the train of thought is clear. Thank you.
                      28. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 26 September 2012 00: 17
                        +3
                        Under the automatic Shiryaev
                      29. Odessa
                        Odessa 26 September 2012 00: 48
                        +2
                        ************************************************** ******************************
                        ***********
                      30. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 01: 14
                        +1
                        Well, getting such a photo from a girl is just nice.
                      31. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 01: 39
                        +1
                        AAAAAAAA, don't show me "pin shabbat"! The ugliest thing. For her loss - they threatened us - we can get Saturday at the base. They drove this thought tightly 8))
                    2. DIMS
                      DIMS 26 September 2012 00: 12
                      +3
                      I will look but not sure what I will find. I read it in the "Foreign military", when it was already with a blue cover.
                      Sort of
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 14
                        0
                        Dim thank you very much, appreciated.
                2. Pimply
                  Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 57
                  +1
                  It never began to be mass produced.
          2. Novosibirsky
            Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 00: 06
            +2
            And what about bullets? On caliber bullets do not scorch? )) Take the corpses with them? I did not understand your thought.
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 18
              +1
              How did you find the books you talked about by the way?
              1. Novosibirsky
                Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 20
                0
                No, there was no leisure. Saved a link to the dialog. As I want, download from the network, read. Fortunately, he got an e-book. Conveniently. No need to keep a library, and spend money on books too.
            2. DIMS
              DIMS 26 September 2012 00: 24
              +1
              Well, they will kill someone from the AK, so there most of the militants run around with such. You can always blame it on "friendly fire" or local squabbles that very often happen in Lebanon.
              They will suspect, but it is impossible to prove.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 58
                +1
                But lately there have been M-ki everywhere, and another 5.56, so the passions on this issue have somewhat subsided.
              2. Novosibirsky
                Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 22
                0
                And all. Got it. Done. In order not to shine 5,56 shells and bullets, we take AK. OK.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 24
          +1
          Among other weapons, the Flotilla 13 (13), was armed with an AK at one time. They often performed tasks in the sea, and on the territory of the enemy. Therefore, Kalash was often used. Now the topic has faded into the background, for several years now they have not shone with Kalash
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 25 September 2012 23: 30
            +1
            Here's the answer for you, it’s not the enemy’s territory and they use their weapons. Firstly, the ammunition, secondly, a bastard somewhere, and for goodness’s sake.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 02
              +1
              They had such a chip - but now, it seems, almost disappeared.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 25 September 2012 22: 59
        +1
        I completely agree with this. Preparation, she decides, not excuse, is the conscripts, they are stupid.
        1. Odessa
          Odessa 25 September 2012 23: 04
          +3
          Pimply,
          and not excuse - yes it's conscripts, they are stupid

          Eugene, you are wrong here. Remember yourself on the draft, and the first days, already prepared, appeared at 100?
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 25 September 2012 23: 44
            +1
            Esther, I’m talking about this - you need to cook. The question is how often a soldier holds a machine gun in his hands, how often he takes it apart, and how often he shoots it. I learned how to assemble-disassemble the M16 and take care of it on the first day, when I received the machine. And automatism is a matter of practice, shooting, commanders, and sleeping with a machine gun under the pillow.
            1. Odessa
              Odessa 25 September 2012 23: 47
              0
              Pimply,
              I learned how to assemble-disassemble the M16 and take care of it on the first day, when I received the machine gun. And automatism is a matter of practice, shooting, commanders, and sleeping with a machine gun under the pillow.

              But in Israel, in principle, it is, and this joke about the M16, did not appear out of the blue laughing
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 26 September 2012 00: 37
                +1
                How glad I was when I received mekutsar 8))
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 26 September 2012 00: 43
                  +1
                  Zheka from this place in more detail, and if you can photo.
                  1. Novosibirsky
                    Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 01: 23
                    0
                    Quote: Alex 241
                    from this place in more detail, and if you can photo.

                    I am joining! )))
                  2. Pimply
                    Pimply 26 September 2012 01: 55
                    +3
                    Will explain. Tsahal had its own system of show-offs.

                    For example, the M16 was more ponteous than the old Galil. In the Galilee, the forend of wood was more ponte from wood than from plastic.
                    There was a tradition with M16 in Tsahal - its gunsmiths sawed to a shortened and super-shortened version. There was still a certain amount of Colt Commando, the original shortened.

                    The most bespotovoy was M16 with a triangular forend, burekas



                    Next came the "paddle" with a round forend. By the way, also Tsakhal

                    After him - M203 - with a grenade launcher



                    Next - M16A2 with trijicon (he really had a problem - if you received it, then for three years) (8)))

                    Further truncated M16 Colt commando, he is also a mekuzar - shortened







                    And there was a mekutsrar - there the trunk was sawn to zero, and sometimes even more


                    Well, the flat top - also called M4 - is the pinnacle of bliss. As we waited for them in 2002-m8))))



                    And now Tabor has appeared. There are already your own topics
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 05
                      +1
                      The nomenclature is rich. Zhen. In our time, God forbid what to do with weapons, the boys started throwing bayonet-knives, they naturally broke, raking in full, like betraying their homeland.
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 22
                        +2
                        We were threatened with Saturday at the base for the loss of a small hairpin - which was potentially most often lost. Rather, they said that they used to give 8)))
                        In fact, no. There were no knives - it was sadness, they did not betray.

                        And the nomenclature, Sash, is actually even greater. See what Colt is doing now



                      2. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 31
                        +1
                        M-4tKOMANDO? Yes Zhenya?
                      3. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 39
                        +1
                        On the picture? Colt LE-901. Here is this swell. They began to stir after the loss of the army contract - he left Remington.

                        http://world.guns.ru/civil/usa/colt_le-901-r.html
                      4. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 44
                        0
                        And do you keep it at home? Yes Zhen?
                      5. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 53
                        0
                        If. If there were laws in Russia that allow it to be stored 8).
                        When he served in the army, there were about five stores at home, a grenade, and a machine gun brought home. Then for several years there were pistils - I don’t remember one, the second - Beretta.

                        Here, not so long ago, Tsakhal arranged a "forgiven day" - people that only did not bring from home. Including grenade launchers, machine guns, mortar shells, etc. 8))
                      6. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 02: 56
                        +1
                        Yes, maybe it’s for the better.
                      7. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 02: 59
                        +1
                        Well, who knows. In Israel, largely because of this, there was a very low level of street crime 8)
                    2. Bad_gr
                      Bad_gr 26 September 2012 19: 57
                      +1
                      Quote: Pimply
                      ... In Tsakhal there was a system of show-offs ......

                      It was easier in Afghanistan for me.
                      First, an AK-74 with a non-retractable wooden buttstock was issued from the warehouse (in the common people it was called an "oar"). On one of the business trips, jumping out of the back of the Urals, holding a tool in one hand and with a submachine gun behind his back, he hooked the barrel overboard and hit him on the head with a butt. I really didn't like it. I changed the machine gun to AKSU. It was convenient to ride with him, only in the mountains he was useless like a pistol. Is that shooting in the direction of the enemy, so that it would not be so comfortable to shoot aimingly. With a folding stock, but a long barrel would be just right, but at that time they were not in stock.
                      1. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 20: 51
                        0
                        Who are you in the photo?
                      2. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 26 September 2012 21: 00
                        0
                        Quote: NovoSibirets
                        Who are you in the photo?

                        Left in a cap, in unloading, hands on top of the machine
                      3. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 21: 02
                        +1
                        Honor and respect. I adore.
                      4. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 26 September 2012 21: 53
                        +1
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Honor and respect.

                        Thank you for your kind word!
                      5. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 22: 00
                        +2
                        I sincerely, sincerely ...
                      6. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 21: 29
                        0
                        I've got a bummer fit for you! )) You, on the Ave "no photo" is written. Here, put yourself a new one! bully
                      7. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 21: 31
                        +1
                        I've got a bummer fit for you! )) You have "no photo" written on your ava.
                        Here, put yourself a new one! bully
                      8. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 26 September 2012 21: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: NovoSibirets
                        You have "no photo" written on your ava.
                        Here, put yourself a new one! bully

                        :) It will be out of place: I was not a military man, but a civilian electrician. It was more difficult for soldiers and officers.
                        Here is another photo from the same operation (in the morning)
                        (somewhere on this site already posted it)
                      9. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 22: 01
                        +1
                        There are no civilians in the war, so feel free to put a photo.
                      10. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 22: 15
                        +1
                        Well, in general, yes! If you are Kalashmat, Kalashmat themselves - then in the right to put such a card. )))
                      11. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 22: 37
                        +2
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        (somewhere on this site already posted it)

                        Yes, I remember a long time ago. A year ago somewhere. Maybe a little less.
                      12. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 23: 39
                        +1
                        Well, "drying", according to all reviews, is a good machine, but more optimized for building. M16 classic - paddle paddle. It is comfortable, but long - a meter. When I received the short version, I was happy. For long distances, either platoon-company snipers or aviation worked for us, and with the "mekutsar" it was wildly convenient.
                      13. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 23: 43
                        +1
                        JEN What is DRYING?
                      14. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 23: 49
                        +2
                        Shortening apparently so called.
                      15. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 23: 53
                        0
                        I realized that I would prefer a full-sized barrel in battle.
                      16. Pimply
                        Pimply 26 September 2012 23: 57
                        +1
                        Bitch, sealed up. 8) AKS-74Y
                      17. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 23: 58
                        +1
                        We have already figured out good
                      18. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 03
                        +1
                        Zhenya, by the way, about BERETTA M92 WHAT CAN YOU SAY? IF YOU WORKED WITH IT A VERY INTERESTING IMPRESSIONS.
                      19. Odessa
                        Odessa 27 September 2012 00: 09
                        -1
                        alex 241,
                        Beretovsky site.http: //www.beretta.com/index.aspx? M = 116 & f = 10 & idt = 1
                      20. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 14
                        0
                        Thank you, but first-hand impressions are important to me.
                      21. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 18
                        0
                        With 92, I’ve worked with one of eighty, .22 caliber, I don’t remember the exact data, unfortunately. Wildly comfortable, a fairy tale, not a gun. With such a caliber you hardly feel any recoil.

                        For a while I still had the M1 carbine

                        Like the top one. Not for long. Killed in the trash, but also very pleasant, comfortable, handy. Recoil at a minimum. Another caliber - and the Americans would have had the first assault rifle after the Fedorov assault rifle.
                      22. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 21
                        0
                        These are either Georgians or Latvians purchased. laughing description .... Xia about the war
                      23. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 34
                        +1
                        You’ll laugh, but in Israel sometimes such prodigies are made - it becomes scary. The police are still in service.





                        [img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSPdfI3pwjvcNNzRu0iajW
                        _bbT9Z3c9Ps4JJ8bMgel6DP_61O4_XQ[/img]
                      24. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 37
                        +1
                        Ginseng at the top of Mark2?
                      25. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 45
                        +1
                        No, it's all the same good old M1 carbine, processed by Israeli gunsmiths into the HEZI SM-18 variant)))
                      26. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 06
                        0
                        Zhen I will soon forbid to send you a photo good and to be honest it’s worth putting your hands .....
                      27. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 01: 18
                        +1
                        So that's the point. The Israelis from Caa Tactical, by the way, are working with Izhevsk, the campaign.

                        Ak-102, with handles, butt, and, hike, fore-end from Caa Tactical


                        AK-12 near
                      28. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 23
                        0
                        Zhen, the limiting front centering is the jammed cover of the SK, slurred translators of the fire, you’re sorry for being straightforward. It seems that someone wants to make a masterpiece, and someone prevents it.
                      29. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 01: 32
                        +1
                        I just wanted to show it. 8) This, of course, is a prototype. But in order to do something really good, they should not be guided by IT. It is out of date from the moment Galil Ace went into the series - and it has been in service for several years.

                        By the way, to support the topic.

                        Tavor prototype


                        Uzi prototype number 00001
                      30. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 02: 10
                        +2
                        By the way. Mokrushin has new test photos, an 107 series, sort of. In the bottom - not sure



                      31. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 26 September 2012 23: 52
                        +1
                        Quote: Pimply
                        It is comfortable, but long - meter.

                        But the line of sight .., uh .., you’ll lick your fingers.
                      32. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 26 September 2012 23: 54
                        +1
                        In people of a certain mindset, thoughts converge wink
                      33. Odessa
                        Odessa 27 September 2012 00: 02
                        -1
                        alex 241,
                        In people of a certain mindset, thoughts converge

                        If you think and shoot in one direction! laughing
                      34. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 05
                        +1
                        You, as always, see the root, you should work in counterintelligence good
                      35. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 02
                        +1
                        Yes. From the broken-down, ancient, times of the Vietnam War, from the first sighting on the 25 I put five rounds in a centimeter circle. 1.2, it seems, the first one went a little to the side. And then, after a couple of weeks, they gave me a collimator. Ancient, the beginning of the 80's Elbit Falcon, designed to be installed in Galilee.





                        And life has become beautiful and amazing.
                      36. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 06
                        +1
                        Zhen is my opinion a tool for the pros.
                      37. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 20
                        +1
                        Sasha, any soldier should be a pro - this time.

                        Two - this is exactly the thing with which the pros do not need to be. No need to learn to properly close your eyes and combine the front sight with the whole. You just look at the red dot with both eyes and shoot. Accuracy and speed increase twice, the rate of training in shooting - several times.
                      38. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 28
                        0
                        Zhen, do you explain everything to our figures, remember the red book? Everything is painted there, with what eye to aim and where ... Eh. And how to fix it on the moving cover of the Kalash? Or invent an arm?
                      39. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 27 September 2012 00: 32
                        +2
                        "Calm down, everything has already been stolen before us !!!" laughing
                        On a dovetail picatini is fastened and on the road. IMHO, the most reliable way for AK, you can’t put it on the cover of the SK, for obvious reasons.
                      40. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 41
                        0
                        Damn, a real transgluctor, Terminator would die with fear good But to be honest, I liked it. Italian optics? Correct if I am mistaken.
                      41. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 27 September 2012 00: 47
                        0
                        I have no idea)) Found on request "side bracket".
                      42. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 52
                        0
                        Well, anyway, as my friend says: very erotic good
                      43. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 27 September 2012 00: 56
                        +1
                        Okay, gentlemen, today I’m pushing the bedbugs earlier - come on.
                      44. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 03
                        +1
                        See you tomorrow. Good dreams.
                      45. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 01: 03
                        0
                        Calm, total
                      46. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 38
                        +3
                        Sasha, there are already so many options for Kalash - that Mama Do not Cry. Dozens of methods of fastening - look in nete.



                        For Kalash, there is now so much body kit that you can go crazy.
                      47. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 45
                        +1
                        Zhen after shooting, shoot on a new one. That's why the side mount does not appeal.
                      48. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 51
                        +1
                        There are front options.





                        Look at the same CAA Tactical options
                      49. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 57
                        0
                        Here is for me Zhenya, under a special machine.
                      50. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 01: 04
                        0
                        Than? Another forend and collimator are placed on it.

                      51. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 09
                        0
                        And the butt is Zhen, and the handle? Moreover, the butt is orthopedic, with adjustment, I would put the side cheek, but this is a matter of taste.
                      52. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 01: 12
                        0
                        So that's the point. Most of the machines can be upgraded in this way.

                        You can initially produce this. There, an example to you - Galil Ace
                      53. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 16
                        +1
                        The conclusion is all new, well forgotten old, taking into account modern realities.
                      54. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 01: 21
                        +1
                        About. And usually - you only need to attach the head of 8 to a lot))
                      55. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 27
                        +1
                        And hands. And even better, both. soldier
                      56. Pimply
                        Pimply 27 September 2012 01: 33
                        +1
                        Well, hands without a head, as a rule, do not cost much 8)))
                      57. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 35
                        0
                        It's hard to argue with that.
                      58. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 50
                        0
                        Zhen I wrote to you in a personal.
                      59. Novosibirsky
                        Novosibirsky 27 September 2012 00: 51
                        0
                        Why on new? The mount is reliable, it will lie where it grew. After all, on the SVD, too, the OD is attached to the same image!
                      60. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 27 September 2012 01: 04
                        0
                        Sniping is a separate issue, God forbid you touch the rifle, the sight there is constantly in place. Anything I'm so arrogant?

                        Well, talk about it tomorrow.
    3. Novosibirsky
      Novosibirsky 25 September 2012 22: 39
      +8
      Our problem is not an outdated AK, for the infantry it is just that. Our problem is small shooting and a small number of hours for shooting training! In the training from the 74th oar, we did the exercise "shooters in the window opening" well and perfectly (true from a prone position, but this is not essential). And if with the PKK from the bipod - only a rare woodpecker did not pass perfectly. Puts, accurately and with a guarantee. And the target with such an exercise at 300 meters is located, if my memory serves me!
      300 meters! Without any optical bells and whistles !!! What else do you need from an assault rifle ?! And give us more hours of shooting, more tactics - in general, the song - "beware of the enemy f @ py called"! ))
      Well, to hell with us so much drill? !! I never understood that ...
      YES the body kit on the AK is needed, the caliber is needed closer to 6 mm, the ammunition is brand new, the rifle would be shorter and easier to do - that's it! And work calmly on specimens for specials ...
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 41
        +1
        That's the truth !!! Practice is needed !!!!!!!!!!
      2. PSih2097
        PSih2097 27 September 2012 00: 13
        0
        a rifle would be shorter and easier to do

        to begin with, let the length of the store be reduced and make it 3x4-in-line ... IMHO
        1. Novosibirsky
          Novosibirsky 27 September 2012 00: 25
          0
          Not very flattering reviews about new high-capacity stores have already gone. They are in the photo for the article. I haven’t been able to use it myself, but if so - why do we need such a crap? And what will happen with 3-4 rows?
          And the staff is acceptable, bourgeois even less often shops.
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 34
            0
            Our national fun, let's reinvent the wheel ....
          2. Pimply
            Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 39
            0
            IMHO, we need ordinary stores on 30 cartridges - only with a normal hitch. All high-capacity stores tend to be unreliable
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 47
              0
              To the Kalashov boutiques I personally have complaints -0
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 27 September 2012 00: 55
                0
                Modern stores allow hitching without special tools.
      3. Alex 241
        Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 29
        0
        I read it again today +
        1. Novosibirsky
          Novosibirsky 27 September 2012 00: 38
          +1
          Thanks of course, but I have enough constructive conversation. I am a longtime and principled opponent of epaulettes and pluses with minuses on the site. So, I just talk, argue constructively, and already above the roof! )))
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 27 September 2012 00: 48
            0
            Why virtual shoulder straps if there are real, deserved? Rhetorical question....
  35. Karish
    Karish 25 September 2012 22: 29
    0
    Quote: Alex 241
    . Show me an analogue of another weapon which for such a time remained in a combat-ready state.

    A stone ax, no one can compare with it. In general, Alexander is not quite the correct answer, WWII aircraft still fly and are quite combat-ready, but this does not mean that they are better, more modern and meet the requirements of the 21st century. Yours faithfully hi
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 25 September 2012 22: 35
      +2
      Oh, with WWII airplanes pressed on a sore spot.
    2. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 25 September 2012 23: 16
      +1
      Quote: Karish
      A stone ax, no one can compare with it. AT

      You started great.
      I believe that for the battle there is no more perfect apparatus than the AK-47, a modern sight and some electronic body kit would not hurt.
  36. bask
    bask 25 September 2012 22: 52