Old ships: the problem of the USA and Russia

105

To begin with, a small digression to the readers and (especially) commenters. We have a different audience. Both culture and education. Accordingly - and the quality of the comments. Some (usually quickly leaving us) part of the audience believes that it is possible to stoop to outright rudeness and stupidity. Usually, for some reason, these are the so-called "cheers-patriots", for whom insults are the main argument. But I would like a different argument.

The author is often accused of lack of patriotism. He only sees the bad. Sorry, Channel One and Zvezda will tell you about the good. If you need positive under the cheers-sauce - so it's there, there are such professionals (without scoffing, it's true) they do it very accessible and beautifully. We try to be objective.



A few words about objectivity. There were two articles this month that caused a direct spill of bile in the “uryashnye”. On the modernization of surface and submarine ships. It’s hard to say why I didn’t please, but apparently people just don’t quite understand the subject.

I somehow already tried to speak in automotive language, I'll risk it again. You have a six. Inherited from grandfather. Fresh, only 1982, assembled from Soviet metal and Soviet hands. Flint, in short.

You take her to work. Change sills, arches, fenders, paint, sort out the engine, flop a “modern” injector for the “classics” on it, repair the box and paint. Uh? Oh sure. All such "six", as from the assembly line, shines.

And you go to your neighbor. Measure. But the neighbor has a Chevrolet Cavalier of the same year. The condition is not exhibition, but ... air conditioning, automatic transmission, power windows, power steering and other pleasures.

Do you understand what I mean? Yes, patriotism is very good. But common sense says that a Kia "Rio" or even a "Granta" would be better.

Our entire life today is marked by the struggle between patriotism and common sense. And someone believes that the patched "Admiral Shaposhnikov", which has had half of its hull replaced, is an unspeakable "victory" that has strengthened the fleet, and it has the right to do so. As well as the fact that a forty-year-old ship is such a dubious gain. But alas, not only are there no others, they are not yet foreseen. And this is the reality of our day.

But now we will talk about what is happening on the other side of the ocean, in the United States.

On the one hand, the publications of some state media speak directly about how bad things are for the Americans. On the other hand, is it worth it to rejoice?

"American navy yards and shipyards are badly worn out and can't handle the load" - said the head of the Forces Command fleet Admiral Daryl Caudle.

Speaking at the annual meeting of the Surface Navy Association conference, the admiral spoke a lot and directly that warships are being repaired slowly and not as well as we would like, and new ships suffer from postponed delivery dates (the Russian equivalent of "shift to the right" ).

The worst situation is with aircraft carriers and submarines, the shipbuilding industry is in such a state that if several large ships fail (for example, as a result of a military clash at sea with an enemy of equal strength), there will be enormous difficulties in repairing them.

Not enough people, not enough capacity.

All of this is very familiar to us, in Russia there are exactly the same problems. And during the time it takes the United States to build a nuclear aircraft carrier with a displacement of 100 tons, we are building a frigate with a displacement of 000 tons.

As they say, there is a difference, and it is palpable.

Caudle goes on to complain that the US Navy lacks shipyards and dry docks. Those that are, work at the limit of their capabilities. In the case of the situation described above, when urgent repairs of many ships are required, the admiral believes that the US Navy does not have any reserves in order to rectify the situation.


As an example, the admiral cited the example of the Connecticut submarine, which the crew banged about something in the South China Sea. The boat is still waiting for repair, and no one can predict when it will begin. And no one has yet guessed how effective the repair will be.

Ship repair is a problem. This is a huge problem, because in wartime this problem can become a vulnerability, perhaps even a critical one.

Here it is worth remembering the experience of the Second World War. What losses did the US fleet initially suffer from the actions of the Japanese aviation and ships. And how confidently the country was able to repair damaged and build new ships, completely offset the advantage that Japan received in the first year of the war.

Will they be able to repeat in the USA? If the admirals of the American Navy doubt it...

Meanwhile, from the US military budget from 2015 to 2019, 2,8 billion dollars were allocated specifically for the repair and reconstruction of shipyards. For comparison, this is half of the entire military budget of countries such as Ukraine, Romania, Denmark or Switzerland.

However, despite the money spent, according to the reports of the Senate commission that controls the military-industrial complex, enterprises that received subsidies for repair and development disrupted about 70% of the repair and maintenance of aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines in terms of timing. It is worth emphasizing that these are enterprises that are fully or partially federally owned.

Private traders are doing somewhat better, but they mainly deal with smaller ships.

Why is that? It is clear that some shipyards are very old. The same famous shipyards in Boston are over 200 years old. It is clear that they have been modernized from time to time, but replacing the machine park is one thing, and changing the entire infrastructure is another.

The technical condition of the fleet, especially the large navy, is a huge problem. This applies to both our fleet, which is far from the youngest in the world, and the American one, which is also full of veterans.

In 2020, again reporting to Congress, a special commission to review the naval forces made a very unpleasant conclusion for congressmen: old ships consume more money for maintenance and repairs than actually carry out combat service. It turned out that even for a country like the United States, with such a military budget, it is problematic to maintain such an armada of old ships.

When they talk about it in the Russian media, even with a certain amount of gloating, this is normal. But it is worth remembering that the problems in the Russian fleet are of exactly the same kind.

Today, some of us happily clap their hands over the fact that ships that are 35-40 years old are “going through deep modernization”. And at the same time, they talk with enthusiasm about the "old and crumbling US Navy."

Yes, with ships that have exceeded 30 years of age, the Americans also have problems, who build ships somewhat more successfully than we do. In quantitative terms, at least. Propulsion systems do not withstand the prescribed loads, they fail, the ships cannot perform their tasks.

Moreover, it was the problems with the power plants that sentenced the Freedoms, the very littoral ships on which the United States made very high stakes. The series has been stopped, the ships are no longer acquired by the fleet, and those that are in service are likely to be disposed of as they cannot be used normally.

By the way, about recycling.

A very topical question: what to do with ships whose service life has reached its maximum?

It is clear that for American admirals (probably not only for American ones) to write off warships as scrap - with a sickle or anchor ...

In the United States, the list of ships to be decommissioned was personally and individually approved by the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Michael Gildy.


The first three of the nine Freedoms. And one of the Independences (Coronado) joined them. That is, four littoral ships go to the metal. After the breakdown of the power plant on the Coronado, the commission came to the conclusion that it was easier to cut than to repair.

Seven of the 22 Ticonderoga-class missile cruisers will follow the littoral.


The ships have come close to 35 years of age and more and more money has to be spent on their maintenance. In addition, two of the seven ships, Anzio and Hue City, were put on the reserve list after it turned out that the repair and modernization of these cruisers would cost the budget one and a half billion. Easier to cut. And much cheaper.

It will be necessary to do something with the boats of the Coastal Guard of the Cyclone type. Five boats that have been in service since the beginning of the 90s will also be scrapped, the remaining five are not much younger. A replacement is needed, which is not yet visible.

Well, the largest ship on the list is the amphibious dock ship Whisby Island.


The ship is 36 years old and was last seen in an active process in 2016, when it participated in the Sea Breeze in the Black Sea.

The approach is perhaps justified by the fact that the United States has everything necessary to build new ships. Perhaps there is, because what has been happening in the country lately cannot be called a positive process.

Shipyard cuts also caused cuts in the entire military-industrial complex after the “victory” in the Cold War. No, there was a victory, but it clearly turned out to be pyrrhic, since thousands of specialists were not needed. After all, there was no need for a decent number of warships, and hence for their designers and builders.

And it all started not yesterday, but even under the Clinton administration, when private shipyards began to close due to lack of work and private industry began to lobby for military orders.

And it worked. Part of the engineering and design work began to be left to private traders, although the design of warships was perfectly handled within the walls of NAVSEA, the command of naval systems. It was here that they created projects for very decent ships such as the Wasp UDC and the Ticonderoga cruiser.

Savings have had a huge impact on everything. And today in the United States they are reaping about the same fruits as in Russia, only without enterprises such as Nikolaev's plants remaining abroad.

And the Americans seem to have everything in place, but not in the quality in which they would like.

On the one hand, according to the principle “the neighbor’s dacha burned down, a trifle, but nice,” yes, we can not only gloat, but state the fact that everything in the US naval industry is far from ideal.

However, in our industry, not everything is as perfect as we would like. We have exactly the same problems: lack of docks, industrial sites, factories, power plants for ships.

Speaking about the fact that what is happening in the United States is very beneficial to us, it is worth remembering that the American nation is not just tenacious. Yes, today the Yankee is far from the one that built dozens of aircraft carriers and cruisers, not at all the same. But we are not the same as in the days of the USSR. So, in the best case, given the problems in the United States, one can only say that we still have a certain amount of time that can be spent not on patching old ships, but on building new ones.


How the Americans did it in 1942. But we need to start in Russia of the 2022 model.
105 comments
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  1. +30
    31 January 2022 18: 18
    We would have their problems with the fleet.
    In fact, the entire article is based on someone's statements, paper reports, and in fact they have 68 modern Arleigh Burke-class destroyers.
    1. +11
      31 January 2022 19: 06
      “Someone has empty cabbage soup, and someone has small pearls”
    2. +22
      31 January 2022 19: 45
      Quote: KKND
      We would have their problems with the fleet.

      Key phrase!
      The 30-year US military shipbuilding plan provides funding from $147 yards. In particular, an increase in the rate of construction of nuclear submarines from 2 to 3 per year, bringing the total number of nuclear submarines to 66 units (and by 2051 financial year up to 80 units). Planning the construction of a series of frigates FFG62 at an unprecedented pace (4 ships per year from 2025), a series of landing ships, the continuation of the construction of UDC and nuclear aircraft carriers. From 2026, full-scale construction of new SSBN SSBN826 will begin, as well as up to 166 unmanned ships by 2051. They have a plan / strategy for the development of the Fleet for 30 years ahead ... We have something like that, will there be something like that ..? Incomparable things.
      1. +13
        31 January 2022 20: 02
        Quote: Doccor18
        У them a plan / strategy for the development of the Fleet scheduled 30 years ahead.
        duck and ours are dreaming of plans ... and they even manage to modify them three to five times, for one decade ... that's just, acre of plans ... ?! request
        Marine Gas Turbine Engine Building and Gear Assembly Center (to replace the lost capacity in Nikolaev), is not created ... ?! Apparently not needed? recourse
        How are things in Taganrog ... ?! Who will make modern GAKs for BNK rank 1 ... ?! As with the development of the Kolomna line of diesel engines "D-500" .. ?! Not needed ... ?!
        Quote: Doccor18
        We have something similar, will there be something similar ..?
        just make plans and put them into practice, in the interests of the state, at a Stalinist pace, this -
        Quote: Doccor18
        Incomparable things.
        1. +5
          31 January 2022 20: 14
          Quote: Vl Nemchinov
          just making plans...

          So there is not even a coherent naval strategy. From it follows the need for the Nth number of forces and means, and only then the plan.

          Quote: Vl Nemchinov
          and put them into practice, in the interests of the state, at a Stalinist pace

          God be with him, with Stalin. Why make people laugh with such propaganda now, even if they just did it ...
      2. +1
        1 February 2022 00: 23
        construction of new SSBN SSBN826

        As far as I understand, this is one subfloat unit, not several
        1. +2
          1 February 2022 08: 07
          This is the lead ship in the series.
          1. +1
            1 February 2022 18: 47
            When it comes to ocean submarines, the series are referred to by the name of the lead ship, and not by the tail number
      3. +1
        2 February 2022 14: 58
        Quote: Doccor18
        We have something similar, will there be something similar ..?

        you will milk the whole world and you will have such a plan / strategy ....
        1. 0
          2 February 2022 15: 13
          Quote: KIND LAVRENTIUS
          you will milk the whole world and you will have such a plan / strategy ....

          Is it really necessary to "milk the whole world" in order to have a clear plan for the development of the armed forces, to create a strategy for the development of the state?
          1. +1
            2 February 2022 15: 25
            Quote: Doccor18
            Is it really necessary to "milk the whole world" in order to have a clear plan for the development of the armed forces, to create a strategy for the development of the state?

            Are you satisfied with just having a clear plan? even if it is a plan to replace ships with inflatable boats?
          2. 0
            5 February 2022 22: 46
            Are you firmly convinced that since you have not been informed of the development strategy of the RF Armed Forces, then there is nothing?
            1. 0
              5 February 2022 23: 25
              Quote: Saboteur
              development strategy of the RF Armed Forces

              It was about the maritime strategy of the state. And it is, in writing, in the form of a document. You can even read it, where among other things:
              III. The main priorities for the development of maritime activities of the Russian Federation for the long term
              ... maintenance and development of the military component of the maritime potential of the Russian Federation at a level that ensures the military and border security of the Russian Federation, protection of the national interests of the Russian Federation in the study, development and use of resources and sea spaces of the World Ocean;
              development of groupings of naval general-purpose forces of the Navy in order to endow them with the potential for strategic non-nuclear deterrence;

              It’s written, it’s written, but how to ensure “strategic non-nuclear deterrence” if the strategy is 30 years old, and gas turbines for frigates (by the way, the basis of the surface component of the fleet) were thought about only not so long ago, and there is no problem in the slow production of diesel engines, and problems with torpedoes / anti-torpedoes, and anti-mine systems, and it is not clear what is happening with naval aviation, and long (and sometimes very) periods of construction / modernization / repair of ships and vessels, and just a bunch of new projects, with obvious problems in the main ones. That is, there is a strategy, for a long time ahead, and its implementation is such that it was only recently discovered, and before that there was another ...
    3. -5
      31 January 2022 22: 46
      in fact, a retelling of a week-old article from an American admiral who was worried that they had problems with the fleet) Roman, only in profile)
      1. 0
        1 February 2022 17: 40
        Roman, only in profile

        Ship repair is a problem. This is a huge problem, because in wartime this problem can become a vulnerability, perhaps even a critical one.

        World War II... years... yes.
        The next one will be exactly the same. Years, resources, millions of dead on the fronts.
        No, trust me, it will.
    4. 0
      1 February 2022 10: 46
      in fact, there is no need to compare the fleet of the Sea Power and the fleet of the Land Power this time!
      in fact, it makes no sense to compare these two because of the size of military budgets!
  2. +3
    31 January 2022 18: 19
    I read the article hard, the beginning in the style of educating readers and continuing instead of an objective assessment, the author pushes absolute nonsense to us. Everyone seems to want to see the author as a polite and delicate person. And here it is not. Hamam and rude people live very well.
    1. -11
      31 January 2022 19: 52
      Usually, for some reason, these are the so-called "cheers-patriots", for whom insults are the main argument.
      Thank you, you are our polite, enlightened. recourse
      The author is often accused of a lack of patriotism. Say, he sees only the bad .... .
      Well, yes, it looks like he was born like that. "Spit in every pot." Every question has ++ and --. So he, they say, is a specialist in objectivity. True with a bias in (--).
      Sorry, Channel One and Zvezda will tell you about the good. If you need a positive under the cheers-sauce - so it's there, there are such professionals (without scoffing, it's true) they make it very accessible and beautiful.
      Which is also doubtful.
      A few words about objectivity. There were two articles this month that caused a direct spill of bile in the “uryashnye”.
      Wear boots with horseshoes, you are our cultural one, it will be more accurate.
      On the modernization of surface and submarine ships. It’s hard to say why I didn’t please, but apparently people just don’t quite understand the subject.
      Exactly! That's where the dog is buried! recourse But we love and understand the fleet and the history of the fleet.
      1. 0
        5 February 2022 22: 48
        Keep!
  3. +16
    31 January 2022 18: 26
    Of course, their problems are nothing compared to ours. There is also the production of power plants and much more, which in fact is just emerging in our country. But it is necessary to do and build a new one. The road will be mastered by the walking one.
  4. -20
    31 January 2022 18: 26
    The author certainly tried. Raised the price of Ilf and Petrov. But this article should be read by graduates of the Navy Universities.
  5. +7
    31 January 2022 18: 31
    Knowing that on modern "new" ships the hull metal is often worse than on Soviet "old men", this article is about nothing at all.
    1. +18
      31 January 2022 18: 39
      Knowing that on modern "new" ships, the metal of the hull is often worse than on Soviet "old men",
      My classmate with honors from the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology 30 years ago was forced to become a shopkeeper, quite successful (12 shops in a city of 2). He placed many of his shops in the basements of residential buildings. And he noted the poor quality of the current pipes of the heating plant - they seem to be new, but they leak after 30 years. The Soviet ones were in accordance with GOST, but, of course, they were not calculated for 40-XNUMX years.
      1. +9
        31 January 2022 20: 08
        Quote: Aviator_
        He placed many of his shops in the basements of residential buildings. And he noted the poor quality of the current pipes of the heating plant - they seem to be new, but they leak after 2 years. The Soviet ones were in accordance with GOST, but, of course, they were not calculated for 30-40 years.

        My dear, the wiring in the houses was made of galvanized pipes, and even furnace welding (ChTPZ and TMZ) with a diameter of up to 2 ". Yes, and the walls were thick, they could be bent from heating, without corrugations. This means that the pipes were annealed and had no internal stress In Khrushchev, the pipes of steam heating and water supply stood for 35 years and still would have stood, but a decision was made ....
        1. +1
          31 January 2022 20: 11
          wiring in houses was made of galvanized pipes, and even furnace welding (ChTPZ and TMZ) with a diameter of up to 2 ".
          Thanks for the info. I can no longer please my classmate with her - he died in 2018. Heart.
          1. +5
            31 January 2022 20: 22
            Quote: Aviator_
            Thanks for the info. I can no longer please my classmate with her - he died in 2018. Heart.

            Info is useless. Furnace welding mills were cut into a charge and turned out to be unprofitable. fool Up to 800 thousand tons / year could be given, but perestroika. request
        2. +5
          31 January 2022 20: 47
          I still have heating, my house is 64 years old.
          1. 0
            7 February 2022 16: 35
            And what will they do? "Made with all my heart" (from advertising) of the Soviet government. (in the sense, they did it for people .... and not riveted profits.) Now, I welded a pipe on an electric welding mill and sold it. After 5 years (at best), you are welcome, for a replacement! And pipe workers, and public utilities, a solid profit.
  6. +3
    31 January 2022 18: 33
    Our entire life today is marked by the struggle between patriotism and common sense. And someone believes that the patched "Admiral Shaposhnikov", which has had half of its hull replaced, is an unspeakable "victory" that has strengthened the fleet, and it has the right to do so. As well as the fact that a forty-year-old ship is such a dubious gain. But alas, not only are there no others, they are not yet foreseen. And this is the reality of our day.

    It's just "+"
    1. -7
      31 January 2022 18: 59
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      It's just "+"

      I join. I'm constantly "embarrassed" by some indistinct comments, such as:
      Quote: KKND
      We would have their problems with the fleet.
      In fact, the entire article is based on someone's statements, paper reports, and in fact they have 68 modern Arleigh Burke-class destroyers.

      What did you want to say? That we have continuous problems in Russia? Yes, we have one problem - the authorities, incapable of making state decisions, which, like a bad dancer, are always hindered by something: either socialism, or a mausoleum, or sanctions, or the opposition, or leftists, or pensioners ... Not a single complaint about the leadership, who cannot simply outline plans for the development of the economy, cannot stop corruption, do not know how to build warm shipyards in a country with a cold climate ... Some problems that have not been solved for decades ...
      This must also give rise to detachments of clackers, happy with absolutely everything. Everywhere and in everything they see "all-weapons" ...
      Here, Roman outlined the problem. Where are some good suggestions? Why, in fact, no one is interested in the issue of creating effective protection for hulls? Why has no one been puzzled by the problem of creating power plants?
      Trillions of rubles are stashed in the country, and our engineers are not even able to copy installations from the past ... We need to see what they are doing. Maybe they reinvent the wheel or the steam locomotive.
      Or did someone in the Kremlin invent a new way of getting up from your knees, constantly adding weight to your shoulders?
      ==========
      Okay... Time to get back to Ukraine. For two whole hours nothing new was printed about her ...
      1. 0
        31 January 2022 19: 04
        We have only one big problem, but for more than 20 years they still cannot understand it at the top - we have TOO small economy for our too big desires.
        We are like a small, poor but spoiled boy who rushes about with his 500 rubles in a toy store - on the one hand, tormented by momentary desires and suffering about the lack of something more significant, on the other hand, not wanting to take his Wishlist in hand and focus on the long-term line and sustainable desires, implying purposeful accumulation.
        1. +7
          31 January 2022 19: 13
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          We have only one big problem, but for more than 20 years they still cannot understand it at the top

          I assume you don't live in Russia.
          We have one problem, which is aggravated from year to year - BRAUD, CYNIC THEFT!!!
          Now, POPULATION EXTINCTION is added to it. The country cannot develop according to residual principles...
          1. -4
            1 February 2022 08: 20
            Firstly, if in the country in the 1s there was a zero birth rate and now this generation has entered childbearing age, then, of course, there will be no special birth rate. And if you don’t understand this, and talk about the birth rate in terms of births / deaths per year, then it’s better to be silent, you won’t be disgraced.

            About theft, there is no need to provoke your Kiev realities on the Russian Federation. In Russia, theft was, is, and will be. But this theft is individual, and not as a national idea, like yours.
        2. +11
          31 January 2022 19: 58
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          We are like a small, poor but spoiled boy... with our 500 rubles...

          And daily 11 million bar. oil and annual 700 billion cubic meters. m. of natural gas, with the supply of metals over a hill for more than 30 yards (also foreign), and for the same amount of precious metals, for 15 yards of chemicals (mainly fertilizers), for 13-odd yards from grain and other agricultural products, etc. , etc., otherwise yes, it turns out that 500 rubles. we have everything...
          1. +6
            31 January 2022 20: 41
            So yes, of course, but here it is worth mentioning the scale on which we imagine ourselves. And we imagine ourselves to be no less than the second (okay, third) superpower of the planet. A sort of alternative to Anglo-Saxon architecture. Well, for everything, about everything - 4 trillion. dollars of GDP (PPP). Against 24 in China and 21 in the United States. Things like that .. so yes, 500 rubles, for now.
            1. +7
              31 January 2022 20: 52
              Quote: Knell Wardenheart
              And we imagine ourselves to be no less than the second (okay, third) superpower of the planet.

              In economics, of course not. It seems that no one thinks anymore. And in the military hierarchy - after all, that's the way it is. The technological backlog of the USSR allows it to confidently remain in the top three in a few decades.
              As for the economy, then again, there is everything for rapid development, except for the smallest thing - patriotic management ...
              1. -2
                1 February 2022 08: 27
                In the military hierarchy, Russia does not claim to have a Soviet scale and an army ready to fight all over the planet, as for GDP, the ruble exchange rate is abnormally low, and the real standard of living in the Russian Federation is much higher, because the population pays for the main goods in rubles . Well, China, if there really is as many people as China says, then with 24 versus 4, China turns out to be just a big, but against the background of Russia, a very poor country.
                1. +2
                  1 February 2022 09: 37
                  Good morning hi
                  Quote: EvilLion
                  China turns out to be just big, but against the backdrop of Russia, a very poor country.

                  In my opinion, no one has ever called China a state with a rich population. There are many billionaires in China, a middle class larger than the entire population of Russia, and several hundred million for whom even the Russian average level will be unattainable for a long time...
            2. +1
              1 February 2022 17: 25
              Quote: Knell Wardenheart
              And we imagine ourselves to be no less than the second (okay, third) superpower of the planet. A sort of alternative to Anglo-Saxon architecture. Well, for everything, about everything - 4 trillion. dollars of GDP (PPP). Against 24 in China and 21 in the United States. Things like that .. so yes, 500 rubles, for now.

              ... but we can put forward ultimatums
          2. -1
            1 February 2022 08: 23
            Just for reference, Russia produces as much oil as Saudi Arabia, only the population there is 7 times smaller, and there is no science, no inconvenient geography, and many other expenditure items that Russia has.

            And of course, you can just divide 30 yards by 140 lemons, it will be just over 200 per person. In year. Somehow it's not funny anymore.
            1. +8
              1 February 2022 09: 51
              Quote: EvilLion
              Russia produces as much oil as Saudi Arabia, only the population there is 7 times smaller

              The population of Saudi Arabia is less than 4 times smaller than the Russian one.
              But that's not the point.
              The current account of the balance of payments immediately grew 3,3 times - to a record $120,3 billion compared to $36 billion in 2020, follows from the data of the Central Bank of the Russian Federation. Last year, both exports and imports increased, but the former was seriously ahead of the latter. Thus, Russia earned $489,8 billion from exports (an increase of 47%), while spending only $303,9 billion on imports (an increase of 27%). The difference between these indicators gave a record current account surplus of $120,3 billion.

              It's just that some say that the country has no money for this, no for that ... But in fact, money, huge money, is added up in all kinds of savings and stabilization funds. They do not work. But the main "stabilization fund" is the industrial and scientific development of the country.
              Quote: EvilLion
              And of course, you can just divide 30 yards by 140 lemons, it will be just over 200 per person. In year. Somehow it's not funny anymore.
              Well, yes, it's quite primitive.
              In one large shopping center, an escalator with steel markings from Krupp. To export 4 million tons of cheap steel, but to buy expensive products from it... What's the point?
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. -3
        31 January 2022 22: 59
        "Okay ... It's time to return to Ukraine. For two whole hours nothing new was printed about it ..".
        Well, why not. That's about Nikolaev remembered.
      4. -6
        1 February 2022 08: 17
        That's right, go out to your courtyard in Kievisho and leave Russia alone.
      5. +1
        2 February 2022 15: 06
        Quote: yuriy55
        Yes, we have one problem - the authorities, incapable of making state decisions, which, like a bad dancer, are always hindered by something: either socialism, or a mausoleum, or sanctions, or the opposition, or leftists, or pensioners ...

        you admit the idea that our country is hindered by a large number of yuriy55 in the country?
    2. +9
      31 January 2022 19: 42
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      Our entire life today is marked by the struggle between patriotism and common sense. And someone believes that the patched "Admiral Shaposhnikov", which has had half of its hull replaced, is an unspeakable "victory" that has strengthened the fleet, and it has the right to do so. As well as the fact that a forty-year-old ship is such a dubious gain. But alas, not only are there no others, they are not yet foreseen. And this is the reality of our day.

      It's just "+"
      ... well, not quite ...(!). recourse
      since you and Roman are talking about objectivity ... ?! winked At first no matter how old it isпо возрасту) the same "Shaposhnikov", but it must be admitted that after modernization (with the addition of UKKS and PU "Uranov"), he really added significantly in his strike capabilities, and this is a fact (!). Of course, it’s bad that it was not possible to strengthen its air defense capabilities, at least with Calm-1 ... but there is probably a question of price and timing. ?! (I do not know).
      Secondly: for Pacific Fleet this is a real boost now, because the first 22350 will get there no earlier than 2025-26 (!), and this is also a fact (!).
      After all, take a closer look at what they are now vtyuhivayut - 20380 (?!) corvette, which by itself, - there is hope that, as Klimov says, - "there will be no war !! "
      Ну and thirdly, we admit to ourselves honestly that the possibilities "new" GAK "Zarya 3.3 (for frigates 22350), as far as I know, in detecting submarines, it is much paler than the capabilities of the Soviet" Polynom "!!. ... And the possibility of releasing such powerful GAKs as "Polynom" or "Zvezda-2" ( as on "Chabanenko"), are now irretrievably lost. Plant in Krasny Luch, Lugansk region, practically non-existent (!), and even the element base equal to (these SACs from the Soviet Union), now there is nowhere to take it ... The products of the Taganrog "Dawn" are far from them ...

      and now the question is does the modernization of the BOD 1155 make sense, especially for the Pacific Fleetand, given the speed of construction of the 22350s, at the moment ?! , or let them be content with 20380s ... ? !! suddenly they are lucky, and before real collisions with enemy submarines or aircraft, they will not have to in reality ? !! hi
      and here -
      Quote: yuriy55
      Why has no one been puzzled by the problem of creating power plants?
      really good question (!). Yes
      1. +3
        31 January 2022 20: 46
        And everything would be fine, but the opponents of our Pacific Fleet in the Far East are the first fleet in the world (in terms of quality, at least), as well as the fairly modern Japanese fleet.
        No, I'm certainly glad, radechonek, at least to maintain this defense capability, but ... but how long will we put patches? There have already been fairly well-reasoned articles showing our fleet building for the next 20 years (for submarines, they definitely were). And what, all Shaposhnikov should swim, keep his chest like a wheel for another 20 years? It's depressing, it can't help but be depressing.
        On D-Day, we may again be unprepared. As always.
        1. +2
          31 January 2022 21: 59
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          And everything would be fine, but the opponents of our Pacific Fleet in the Far East are the first fleet in the world (in terms of quality, at least), as well as the fairly modern Japanese fleet.
          a fortiori (!), resist him 20380, in the 1155m alternative, is much more SUICIDIC (!).
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          but how long will we put the patches?
          until there are massive be created / built ships that at least no weaker than 22350 ... (!).
          Personally, I would welcome the digitization of project 11560, for modern weapons systems (under the power plant from a bunch of new marching gas turbine engines, M-70FRU and afterburner M-90FR, which USC and UEC stuttered about two years ago (!), But so far, alas, about this power plant everyone fell silent ....) or let it be 22350M (as Rakhman and Borisov grandiosely said ... ?!!! But .... after all, silence ... ?!
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          And what, all "Shaposhnikov" to swim, keep his chest like a wheel for another 20 years?
          but you see more real alternative for now ?!. It would be nice if the modernization of "Vinogradov" went faster than that of "Shaposhnikov", and I would like to strengthen the air defense of "Shtil-1", but ... we'll see. (?!).
          .
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          It's depressing, it can't help but be depressing.
          agree (!), but in reality, until they went into serial construction of 22350M (let's call the project of a promising frigate / destroyer, so far, as suggested by USC. For ease of discussion), you can see/suggest a faster and more realistic way out of the impasse situations with BNK rank 1 at the Pacific Fleet ...?!! request
          Or do you think I, and many other visitors to this site, are delighted with the current situation ? !! There is also a "Varyag", not the limit of wear of the power plant ...

          As one of the options for getting out of such (the situation), measures such as:
          option 1). Give the Curator from the Navy / or the military-industrial complex, (I really don't know how to say) which would take special control creation of new diesel engines of the "D-500" family, Kolomna plant (!)... Where are the proposed 12SD-500 (8000 hp each) in the form "quadruplets" (by analogy with DDA-12000, for corvettes 20380), would be used for the construction of a series of PLO / OVR corvettes, based on 11664 (along Zelenodolsky PKB Ave.), from 2 to 8 UKKS, SJSC "Zarya-2", BUGAS, SAM "Shtil-1 ", Radar (Positive / Monument / Monolith), etc. , so as not to become as overly expensive, and at the same time not be incapacitated as 20380 ...
          option 1-A) at the same time, help in establishing the same place (for 12000 hp) 20SD-500 (or whatever they suggested ... I can make a mistake in the labeling, sorry), for option 2.
          option 2), do it "gas turbine quad" from M-70FRU, which so far, before the launch of mass production of 22350M, are in fact not used anywhere, but allegedly already certified and ready for mass production by NPO Saturn ..
          GEM, according to a principle similar to the GEM "Sharp-witted" ... (!). All this is for the project of an escort frigate of the "Thunder" type 12441, in VI about 2900-3400 tons. If it can be accelerated to 30 knots, let's say "a quadruple of Kolomna diesel engines with 12000 hp each.", (the described option 1-a, even preferable (!)...
          But alas, so far we have not seen any steps in such directions .... which is a pity, of course.
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          On D-Day we might not be ready again
          well, at 20380, that's for sure ...
          1. +2
            1 February 2022 18: 58
            hi Greetings to Vladimir.
            But I have to oppose.
            Quote: Vl Nemchinov
            Personally, I would welcome the digitization of project 11560, for modern weapons systems (under the power plant from a bunch of new marching gas turbine engines, M-70FRU and afterburner M-90FR, which USC and UEC stuttered about two years ago (!),

            I know your commitment to this project, but in the present conditions it is a utopia. Especially in the calculation of such a power plant. Not only will it not be economical, but for it you will have to compose a complex travel gearbox with torque distribution on both shafts ... It is unlikely that today the industry is capable of such feats (it does not indulge in conventional gearboxes), and such a power plant makes noise it will be terrible, what kind of anti-submarine warfare is there. request
            Yes, and again it is worthless to produce a zoo. For the Pacific Fleet, a full set of corvettes was ordered, half of which will be project 20385, which cannot be called toothless. It can’t be called optimal either - it’s too expensive, but if the anti-submarine detachments will be equally 20380 and 20385, then at least somehow they will correct the matter and toothless in PLO 20380.
            And for the PLO of the near zone, the Super-Karakurt project has already been proposed and may go into series - with power plants from 20380, UKKS (up to two), Packet-NK, Pantsir, BUGAS. If such corvettes nevertheless go into production, then the issue with the choice of the BMZ MPK can be closed. With a VI of 1300 - 1500 tons, it will cost about 12 billion rubles (one and a half "Karakurt"). And Pella and Zelenodolsk will be able to build them, and for the Pacific Fleet - the Amur Shipyard. Moreover, if the project is ready, then ASZ can be laid immediately INSTEAD OF the already ordered "Karakurt", because the "Super-Karakurt" will be "two in one" and will cope with shock tasks even better, because with a larger VI it will have better seaworthiness and fewer restrictions by scoring when using weapons.
            Quote: Vl Nemchinov
            All this is for the project of an escort frigate of the "Grom" type 12441, in VI about 2900-3400 tons.

            But this would not be necessary at all - just so as not to overload our barely breathing shipyards with such differing orders. They would have something of the same type, but a series. For they are weak and incapable of such variety.
            But to resolve the issue with escort frigates and PLO frigates (for long-term services in the combat deployment areas of our SSBNs and in the strait zones of the Kuril ridge), we can’t do without outside help. For it is necessary to make up for lost time over the past 8 years as soon as possible.
            And such help can be accepted from Chinese shipbuilders with their project 054A, redesigned to our needs. The measure is forced, but without ordering ships on the side, we will not be able to quickly saturate the Fleet with scarce ships. Therefore, an order in China for 8 054A (rus) frigates, two UDC type. 071 and integrated supply ships (they seem to have turned out pretty well), I consider it necessary and justified.
            And you need to order immediately.
            And our leading shipyards should attend to the construction of a large series of destroyers (I am sure that they will be re-qualified) 22350M, which are now being designed with the 8th UKKS (64 cells) and a triple BC missile defense system compared to 22350.
            The Amur Shipyard has already been decided to challenge them with construction (6 units 22350M), recently a commission from the USC and the Moscow Region inspected the plant for this purpose. Admiralty, Severnaya Verf and Yantar should also be puzzled by this program.
            And of course, the completion of the laid down 22350 and 22350.1.
            But everything still depends on the readiness of the industry to supply power plants to them rhythmically and on time.
            And while waiting until it all works and starts supplying ships of the 1st rank to the Fleet, we need to intercept orders abroad - in China (because there is nowhere else anyway).
            And even more so, it is worth doing, in modern conditions - when we have one enemy, and we cannot stand against the united West alone.

            ... Well, since our problems with marine diesel engines are not solved in principle, and without them, domestic shipbuilding is in no way ... I propose to return to reverse engineering. And do not care about the sanctions of the enemy.
            1. 0
              1 February 2022 22: 57
              Quote: bayard
              Greetings to Vladimir.
              But I have to oppose.

              Greetings, Vitaliy hi . This is how the world works (!). Opinions cannot always be the same. wink And this is normal.
              Quote: bayard
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              Personally, I would welcome the digitization of project 11560, for modern weapons systems (under the power plant from a bunch of new marching gas turbine engines, M-70FRU and afterburner M-90FR, which USC and UEC stuttered about two years ago (!),

              I know your commitment to this project, but in the present conditions it is a utopia. Especially in terms of such a power plant . Not only will it not be economical, but for it you have to compose a complex chassis gearbox with the distribution of torque on both shafts ... It is unlikely that today the industry is capable of such feats (it does not indulge in conventional gearboxes either), Yes, and such a power plant will make noise , what kind of anti-submarine warfare is there.
              ? !! That's how ?! sorry, but it’s exactly what they plan for the new 22350M (in VI order 8000 tons), and on it it apparently will not have a complex gearbox, and make noise ?! belay , but if it is applied on a digitized 11560 (possibly reducing it from 11 to 8.5 or 9 kt.), she will already make noise ? !! or it will become more difficult to create reducers ? !!. And most importantly (!), which is really easier (lighter and cheaper), to digitize a successful old, well-developed project, and then a little shrink/reduce, or create a new 22350M ?! request

              Quote: bayard
              : For the Pacific Fleet, a full set of corvettes was ordered, half of which will be project 20385, which cannot be called toothless. Not to be called optimal either - too expensive
              I would add with a weak GEM (slow (!).
              Quote: bayard
              but if the composition of the anti-submarine detachments will be equally 20380 and 20385, then at least somehow they will correct the matter and toothless in PLO 20380.
              reeks of squandering... ?! winked
              Quote: bayard
              And for the PLO of the near zone, the Super-Karakurt project has already been proposed and may go into series - with a power plant from 20380
              and he already is ?!. Or maybe it’s faster to finish the release of YOUR (Kolomensky) "D-500x" (type 12SD-500 8000 hp each), and the almost finished project 11661 - 11664 (some of which were calculated for MTU diesel engines, and even of lower power) .... ? !!. recourse or it will be different... -
              Quote: bayard
              Yes, and it’s worthless to breed a zoo again
              ...?!! That is, "New Karakurt" is not a zoo (!), but if "Cheetah", then YES ... ?!! what
              Quote: bayard
              But to resolve the issue with escort frigates and PLO frigates (for long-term services in the combat deployment areas of our SSBNs and in the strait zones of the Kuril ridge), we can’t do without outside help
              belay
              Quote: bayard
              help can be accepted from Chinese shipbuilders with their project 054A
              And THIS IS NOT A ZOO (?!), and much better than their "Thunders" (12441 at 12000 hp diesels from the series "D-500") ... ? !!. Or maybe pouring money from the defense budget into your industry and shipyards is still preferable than replenishing China's gold and foreign exchange reserves ... ? !! what
              Quote: bayard
              But this would not be necessary at all - just so as not to overload our barely breathing shipyards with such differing orders
              I hope you are joking here ? !!
              Pella and the Sea: they can slowly produce RTOs (the same "Karakurt") before updating at the rate of 1/1, before decommissioning the old "Lightning" and Gadfly .. ,
              "Zaliv" and "Yantar": TFRs / frigates, (who is used to) type 22350 and 12441 "Thunder", and let's say BDKashki ...
              "Northern shipyard" (and later and "Baltic" as places become free from icebreakers), then what will become the EMints ... * be it 22350M or 11560 for new weapons systems) ...
              Quote: bayard
              And of course, the completion of the laid down 22350 and 22350.1
              here without objection (!). Yes
              Quote: bayard
              But everything still depends on the readiness of the industry to supply power plants to them rhythmically and on time.
              I agree (!). It’s just that if the industrialists do not focus on accelerating the launch of their D-500 diesel line, in the near future, YOUR new engines will not appear ..
              Quote: bayard
              And while waiting until it all works and starts supplying ships of the 1st rank to the Navy, we need to intercept orders abroad - in China
              NO really (!) No. , better part of these pour money into Kolomna now, and the return will be faster and OWN !!!. Yes .
              otherwise, we will hope that -
              Quote: bayard
              Well, since our problems with marine diesel engines are not solved in principle, and without them, domestic shipbuilding is in no way ..
              hi
              Yes, and that "Center for marine gas turbine engine building and gearboxes", similar to the Nikolaev capacities of Zarya-Mashproekt, it is necessary to create, in my opinion, a fact (!). Otherwise, "NPO Saturn" will not take out shipbuilding programs on a solo basis. There, priority is given to the aircraft engine, and the orientation is more in that part ... winked
              1. -1
                2 February 2022 00: 30
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                ?!! That's how?! sorry, but it’s exactly what they plan for the new 22350M (in VI, about 8000 tons), and on it it apparently won’t have a complex gearbox, and make noise ?! , but if it is applied on a digitized 11560

                I beg your pardon, I mistook him for the "Cheetah" ... and how I presented on it a turbocouple (one) of the M70FRU and M90FR, and with the distribution of torque on two shafts ... I already felt sick. request
                11560 is an old project, no one will revive it, a preliminary design has already been approved and a technical design for 22350M is being prepared, and not from the 6th, but from the 8th UKKS - for 64 cells! With two additional blocks of the UKKS "Redut" on the waist (in front of the hangar), two helicopters ... and the same radar and avionics complex as on 22350. This beast will be more terrible than the Burke, at least in the composition of strike weapons. They will build it. And at once at several shipyards at the same time. If only the industry with the power plant did not fail.
                And precisely in order not to distract the industry and leading shipyards to less valuable (but no less important) projects, such as PLO frigates (they are escorts), I propose to order a series of modified 054A. it will just turn out MUCH faster and may turn out to be a spoon for dinner.
                Refinement (reworking) should include the following:
                - in place of the UKKS "Shtil" for 48 cells (on the tank), from 2 to 4 UKKS are installed. The number of UKKS depends on the weight distribution so that there is no trim on the nose. But this can help (balance) a large bulb of the underwing GAS from 20380.
                - on the waist, where they have inclined anti-ship missile launchers, short-range UKKS "Redut" are installed - the same set of missiles as in 20380, but a larger BC,
                - on the sides two "Duets",
                - "Package-NK" instead of regular TA,
                - the composition of the radar as on the upgraded BOD.
                Moreover, the Chinese will only build hulls + power plants + general ship saturation. And they should be completed / armed in Vladivostok - at the wall of the Vladivostok Shipyard and (possibly) at the outfitting facilities of the Amur Shipyard in Primorye. So we won’t invest much in the Chinese industry - up to 70% of the cost of such frigates will remain with us.
                Such a frigate will cost about 400 million dollars. smile this means that our industry will get at least 280 million dollars. for each ship.
                It's a good schedule in my opinion.
                And this will be precisely an interception - in order to saturate the Fleet with ships of this class as soon as possible.
                Don’t worry about the variety either - it is advisable to order these 8 frigates specifically for the Pacific Fleet, which is now naked. There is no point in other fleets - there will be enough for 22350 and 3 11356 under construction.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                Quote: bayard
                : For the Pacific Fleet, a full set of corvettes was ordered, half of which will be project 20385, which cannot be called toothless. Can't call it optimal either - it's too expensive
                I would add with a weak power plant (slow

                Yes, of course - this is its main drawback after the fantastically high price.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                Quote: bayard
                but if the composition of the anti-submarine detachments will be equally 20380 and 20385, then at least somehow they will correct the matter and toothless in PLO 20380.
                reeks of squandering...?!

                This is a forced measure - there was simply nothing more to build. The only warship that the Russian Federation was able to build on its own. There were no engines for anything else.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                Quote: bayard
                And for the PLO of the near zone, the Super-Karakurt project has already been proposed and may go into series - with a power plant from 20380
                does he already exist? Or maybe it’s faster to finish the production of YOUR (Kolomensky) "D-500x" (type 12SD-500 with 8000 hp), and the almost finished project 11661 - 11664 (

                Alas, relying on a non-existent power plant - not only the diesel engines themselves, but also on the gearbox for them ... is reckless. In the project "Super-Karakurt" only available components were used:
                - GEM from 20380,
                - elongated (scaled) body "Karakurt),
                - UKKS for 12 cells (or up to 16),
                - "Package-NK",
                - "Shell-M",
                - BUGAS,
                - a gun ,
                - RLC
                all components are serial, worked out, produced by industry.
                And you can build such light corvettes at Pella and in Zelenodolsk. And also at the Amur Shipyard for the Pacific Fleet.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                "D-500x" (type 12SD-500, 8000 hp each)

                We have been hearing about these future engines for 8-10 years, but we do not see them. And you can't count on them. Let's sit in a puddle. From which we can not get out for 8 years.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                Pella and the Sea: they can slowly produce RTOs (the same "Karakurt") before updating at the rate of 1/1, before decommissioning the old "Lightning" and Gadfly ..

                They seem to be under construction, but they just can’t wait for their diesel engines - there are so many buildings on the Pella waiting for them. It’s better to build only them right away with the launch of the Super-Karakurts. For they will be much more interesting not only in anti-aircraft defense, but also in strike operations - the ammo is larger, seaworthiness is better, which means there are less restrictions on the ballistics for the use of weapons, good air defense for such a ship and ... security from an underwater threat.
                I would bet on them. Moreover, their price should be in the range of 12-13 billion rubles. - one and a half "Karakurt".
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                "Bay" and "Yantar": SKRs / frigates, (whoever is used to it) such as 22350 and 12441 "Thunder", and let's say BDKashki ...

                "Zaliv" is now building UDC. And in the future it will build exactly them or AB of medium VI. So with other orders - only the completion of the same Zelenodolsk. But if he could still take on something else in parallel, I would entrust him with the same "Super-Karakurts". We need a lot of such ships. Including for the Mediterranean operational squadron.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                It’s just that if the industrialists do not focus on accelerating the launch of their D-500 diesel line, in the near future, YOUR new engines will not appear ..

                It is up to the government to stimulate them and achieve results, but so far the result is one - there are NO diesel engines. Although they are needed not only by the military, they are also in demand for civil shipbuilding.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                NO (!), it’s better to pour some of this money into Kolomna now, and the return will be faster and YOUR OWN !!!. .
                Otherwise, let's hope

                We have industries in which no matter how much you pour in, it's useless - "0", because they are monopolists. And when an alternative and a good whip appear, they may start to stir.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                And the fact that, in my opinion, it is a fact (!) Otherwise, "NPO Saturn" will not take out shipbuilding programs on a solo basis.

                Yes , it is necessary to create such a center . That's just its creation and formation will take a hundred and only time, which will be easier to win back Nikolaev and provide USC GEM of any class.
                They would have launched at least a power plant for 22350 and 22350M. Yes, they would have already set up the production of travel gearboxes for corvettes ... evil tongues say that more than one set a year, they still can’t get it ... They say there are problems with hardening gears.

                If only to regain Ukraine this year, and build a fleet like a human being.
                It’s hard to even imagine how much easier and faster everything would be.
        2. -8
          31 January 2022 23: 00
          Well, until then, until the shipyards are completely switched over and included in the shipbuilding program, In the meantime, they are doing their duties, and the development of the fleet should be based on the main recipe for a successful fleet - Quantity interrupts Quality, and we need to rely on this i.e. not build expensive corvettes, but build sane budget corvettes, launch a series of budget frigates a la modernized Petrels, and make normal destroyers out of Super Pots ... Otherwise, they gave the Morons the right to choose and instead of a workhorse they make "lyalka better than all their neighbors" ..
        3. -2
          1 February 2022 08: 35
          Of course, I am wildly sorry, but the first fleet in the world is not an enemy of the Pacific Fleet, because if you are inferior in strength by an order of magnitude, then nothing will change for you from the presence of 1-2 new ships. This is the same as if Russia tried to fight the Golden Horde in its time.

          And it is really impossible to change this economically, Japan and the United States may well maintain superiority at sea by an order of magnitude. Even if Japan dies out in 50 years, we still have to live to see it.

          And that is why the fleet, as a senseless and pre-losing competition, should simply be scored outside of some local tasks. Aviation and nuclear weapons are much more important. That is, what is called an asymmetric response, when we will not land troops somewhere in the Philippines and even in Hokkaido, but at our borders we will inflict such damage on the enemy that the war will lose all meaning for him. Also, Russia does not conduct special maritime trade, and it makes no sense for Russia to shake because of it, like China, which will die of hunger, block its passages to the Indian Ocean.
          1. +1
            1 February 2022 11: 34
            In conditions of naturally limited economic opportunities, I would agree with you. Whether we are, for example, North Korea. Here they have a certain income ceiling, and every % above it is a real feat - and in this regard, such economies really need to solve the problem with the "sacrificial animal".
            In our case, we are literally sitting on a bobble, the development of this line in 20-25 years can at least double our defense budget (in numerical terms), which would probably discourage hot Japanese heads at least.
            Of course, there would be no need to talk about some kind of measures with the United States - however, there is a brink of saturation with funds, which creates a critical price of the "entry threshold". It is possible for us to maintain such a fleet that would create such a threshold even without nuclear weapons - at least in the Pacific Ocean. In other directions, this, at least, would give us greater opportunities to control our water areas.

            At the moment (and in the foreseeable future), you are right - we have no time for offensive operations. And the desire to provide them with opportunities is not the best desire, until we can afford it. However, we still need to build up conventional defense at sea - you can remember the Falklands War, here, something similar may well happen with some of our disputed islands. Britain had nuclear weapons - but did she use it? Can we use it in this case? But the task will need to be solved - and it may not be possible to solve it purely by aviation, we do not have such a large-scale and modern aviation fleet in the region (and by and large, in general).
            In fact, I again agree with you, our real security is kept by nuclear weapons. But we got carried away with this through measures.
        4. 0
          1 February 2022 17: 30
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          And everything would be fine, but the opponents of our Pacific Fleet in the Far East are the first fleet in the world (in terms of quality, at least), as well as the fairly modern Japanese fleet.

          Even if we modernize all large landing ships, the Pacific Fleet will still remain at the level of Tsushima-2 compared to the Japanese
  7. +24
    31 January 2022 18: 37
    Article about American ships a header photo. French missile cruiser Colbert and two Enseigne de vaisseau Henry-class avizas at the Landévennec ship graveyard


    A strange choice
    1. +15
      31 January 2022 18: 52
      My mistake - one of the ships is not an advice note, but the destroyer La Galissonière (D638)
  8. -4
    31 January 2022 18: 37
    Good and most importantly - a good comparison with the Lada-six.
    I don't know how things are with the repair of ships in Russia, but in the USA one of the main problems (in my opinion) is trade unions. It's like a hydra and they have long been a legitimized mafia in the West. For example, worker A can dig a ditch 8 meters long in an 10-hour shift. But the master comes up to him and says that only 4.8m is needed. Because worker 10 meters per shift does not dig. And we have a trade union, all brothers and sisters and everyone is equal. In addition, if you work above the norm, then you need to pay worker A at a factor of 1.5 (or 2.0, depending on the time worked), and this is not included in the project budget. Well, etc. Thus, a ditch 5 km long is dug, for example, not 6, but 15 months.
    1. +12
      31 January 2022 18: 59
      Actually, trade unions have arisen in order to prevent the employer from pulling all the juice out of the employee and not to allow the employee to shift their problems onto the employee.
      The employer is always happy to work overtime and for free.
  9. +16
    31 January 2022 18: 37
    As for the example with the car: how much did it take to "refurbish"? In my opinion, the amount is comparable to a neighbor's car with all the new gadgets.
    I believe that with "Kirov" it was necessary to resolve the issue back in 1992, if not earlier - to repair or cut?
    And about the "floating" ships, which will never move away from the wall without a tugboat. I don’t know how the amers are, but we have 3 ships (in any technical condition !!) - this is a brigade. And the brigade headquarters. If the ships are of the 2nd rank, then the brigade commander is cap 1r (colonel), the rest of the headquarters, 40-50 snouts are cap 2r (lieutenant colonel), having a good chance of demobilization to become cap 1r. And you don’t have to do anything, just write papers. The rows there are such that they hardly fit into a gas mask.
  10. +5
    31 January 2022 18: 40
    So, in the best case, given the problems in the United States, one can only say that we have some more time that can be spent not on patching old ships, but on building new ones.
    speak, do not speak, objectively, the fleet needs new ships.
    The question is what, how much is needed and how much can we build without ruining the country critically?
  11. +1
    31 January 2022 18: 53
    It should be noted that now Russia is enemy No. 2 for the United States. The main enemy is China, Russia should take the chance, while the two are butting heads, to make the most of this situation.
    1. +6
      31 January 2022 19: 11
      What is our situation, what is our task?
      Strong economy and well-being of our people!
      The rest goes naturally, in parallel.
      To say that the task is not feasible ... definitely not so, if you do it wisely, everything will work out.
      1. +1
        31 January 2022 19: 24
        Including the well-being of the people, but also the strengthening of the army (navy), the economy, taking a more advantageous position in international relations.
        1. +3
          31 January 2022 19: 27
          When the well-being of the people becomes including, it is not good. So it's not far from disaster.
          1. 0
            31 January 2022 20: 38
            When only well-being grows, and all other areas are "in the pen", it is also not very good.
            1. +2
              31 January 2022 20: 51
              Extremes, any, do not bring anyone to good ... this is an axiom.
  12. 0
    31 January 2022 19: 36
    Well, yes, to equate technical and technological, financial, and so on. the possibilities of the Russian Federation with the military-industrial complex of the US shipbuilding industry are naive. And taking into account the fact that the navies of the NATO countries are breathing down their necks (and they are not our friends either).
    And yet, yes, you have to, reluctantly, try to make a combat unit with new URO complexes from large Soviet-era BNKs of the 70s-80s of release. Because the shipyards of the Russian Federation can still build a frigate with a "0" larger. (UDC in Kerch, rather an exception)
    1. -2
      31 January 2022 23: 05
      But many people think that the 140 million country can compete with the countries of the "golden billion"!
  13. +7
    31 January 2022 19: 55
    Two questions for the article and the author.

    1. And why shouldn't I gloat looking at the rusty US ships due to infrequent repairs, and why shouldn't I be warmed by the problems of the US Navy from corruption in the purchase of littorals?
    It's good that the weapons of a potential enemy will last less due to poor maintenance.

    2. Regarding the timing of the construction of ships. The size of the ship doesn't really matter. A dry cargo ship for 100000 tons is built in a year. At 8000 tons in Krasnoye Sormovo, dry cargo ships spank in six months. Roles complexity, mastery and !!accessibility!! equipment. although the Americans launched the same Ford, they brought to mind three years later EMNIP. Zumvolt could not be brought to the plan at all. But serial berks spank quickly. And Virginias bake like pies. great deal series. The Russian Federation builds SSBNs in a series in 6-7 years. Quite at the world level, and by the way, one and a half times faster than the British or French. Varshavyanka in the series has been under construction for three years, and the submarine is many times more difficult than a surface ship. Karakurts, Gorshkovs, Guardians are limited not by the productivity of the shipyard, but by the delivery time of the engines.

    And instead of PC and PS. 30 years old ship, old, write off? Tell it to the French, the British, the Germans. The Turks bought Perry who were under the age of forty, and who did not know peace at all. America is decommissioning ships because it does not have shipyards for timely repairs, and not because it is expensive to maintain.
    1. +1
      31 January 2022 22: 38
      Quote: demiurg
      Regarding the timing of the construction of ships. The size of the ship doesn't really matter.

      I will add: Five lumberjacks cut down five trees in five hours. How many lumberjacks can cut down XNUMX trees in XNUMX hours? hi
      1. Aag
        +1
        1 February 2022 15: 19
        Quote: Motorist
        Quote: demiurg
        Regarding the timing of the construction of ships. The size of the ship doesn't really matter.

        I will add: Five lumberjacks cut down five trees in five hours. How many lumberjacks can cut down XNUMX trees in XNUMX hours? hi

        An illustrative example! hi
    2. Aag
      0
      1 February 2022 15: 20
      Quote: demiurg
      Two questions for the article and the author.

      1. And why shouldn't I gloat looking at the rusty US ships due to infrequent repairs, and why shouldn't I be warmed by the problems of the US Navy from corruption in the purchase of littorals?
      It's good that the weapons of a potential enemy will last less due to poor maintenance.

      2. Regarding the timing of the construction of ships. The size of the ship doesn't really matter. A dry cargo ship for 100000 tons is built in a year. At 8000 tons in Krasnoye Sormovo, dry cargo ships spank in six months. Roles complexity, mastery and !!accessibility!! equipment. although the Americans launched the same Ford, they brought to mind three years later EMNIP. Zumvolt could not be brought to the plan at all. But serial berks spank quickly. And Virginias bake like pies. great deal series. The Russian Federation builds SSBNs in a series in 6-7 years. Quite at the world level, and by the way, one and a half times faster than the British or French. Varshavyanka in the series has been under construction for three years, and the submarine is many times more difficult than a surface ship. Karakurts, Gorshkovs, Guardians are limited not by the productivity of the shipyard, but by the delivery time of the engines.

      And instead of PC and PS. 30 years old ship, old, write off? Tell it to the French, the British, the Germans. The Turks bought Perry who were under the age of forty, and who did not know peace at all. America is decommissioning ships because it does not have shipyards for timely repairs, and not because it is expensive to maintain.

      Well, yes ... You can also “calm yourself” in this way (((.
  14. 0
    31 January 2022 20: 05
    But common sense says that a Kia Rio or even a Granta would be better.
    Common sense says that the "Grant" is better than the "Kia Rio" in the current St. Petersburg snowdrifts. Because there is more ground clearance.
    Thank you, Roman!
  15. 0
    31 January 2022 20: 22
    Well, Roman, what can I say, it's already much better. Now, in any case, the article is not naked alarmism, but has some specific proposals. Taking off my hat)
  16. Hog
    0
    31 January 2022 21: 05
    I read this article and remembered my student years)))
    Water, water, water all around.
    1. 0
      1 February 2022 00: 47
      For an equal number of dives and ascents!
  17. -2
    31 January 2022 22: 17
    The very first comparison distorts, and then the same, everything is fine there, everything is bad with us ... Buffoon in a word ...
    1. +1
      1 February 2022 00: 53
      Maybe the author did not quite correctly describe the picture (although in general terms it is true).
      We still have the ability to repair and modernize the ships of the Navy, and in the states they decided to cut the project of littoral ships. How much did the official who signed the contract for their purchase 15-20 years ago receive? Other corals have been running for over 40 years.
  18. -1
    31 January 2022 22: 20
    Here it is worth remembering the experience of the Second World War. What losses did the US fleet initially suffer from the actions of Japanese aircraft and ships. And how confidently the country was able to repair damaged and build new ships, completely offset the advantage that Japan received in the first year of the war.

    .... Replace the fleet with ground troops, etc., and the question is, would the United States (if it were in the place of the USSR) stand on the ground front against Germany ??
  19. +3
    31 January 2022 22: 50
    Asimov paid more about the loss of qualifications before the collapse of the empire. It looks very similar, by the way.
  20. 0
    31 January 2022 22: 54
    We need unification, it gives savings. One type of corvette, one type of frigate, one type of destroyer...
    1. +1
      1 February 2022 17: 43
      Quote: Artemion3
      We need unification, it gives savings. One type of corvette, one type of frigate, one type of destroyer.

      And also one type of boat, one type of minesweeper, one type of patrol boat, one type of MRK, one type of cruiser, one type of aircraft carrier, one type of UDC, one type of BDK, one type of nuclear submarine, one type of diesel-electric submarine
  21. +2
    1 February 2022 00: 45
    I would like to support the author.
    For reference: "Yankees" - residents of the northern states, as a result of a successful war against the southern "slave" states in 1772, the US federation was founded.
    Now about people. In the words of Gumilyov, "high passion" adventurers, criminals and those who were forced to leave the Old World have an incredible capacity for work and a desire to live better.
    But it turns out that they are the same as us! Until the roasted rooster pecks... (or until the Thunder breaks out, the peasant does not cross himself).
    1. 0
      1 February 2022 09: 53
      These are the descendants of the colonists, and deep ones, and the tendency to crime is not inherited. Yes, and Gumilyov with his passionarity is not a science. What is passionarity and how to measure it?
      1. 0
        1 February 2022 18: 29
        And how to measure such concepts as decency, honesty, respect, love, finally?
        1. 0
          2 February 2022 13: 18
          And these are not scientific criteria, just like passionarity.
    2. Aag
      0
      1 February 2022 15: 25
      Quote: EMMM
      I would like to support the author.
      For reference: "Yankees" - residents of the northern states, as a result of a successful war against the southern "slave" states in 1772, the US federation was founded.
      Now about people. In the words of Gumilyov, "high passion" adventurers, criminals and those who were forced to leave the Old World have an incredible capacity for work and a desire to live better.
      But it turns out that they are the same as us! Until the roasted rooster pecks... (or until the Thunder breaks out, the peasant does not cross himself).

      It looks, nevertheless, as one of the ways of complacency ... hi
      1. 0
        1 February 2022 18: 34
        But you should not calm down!
        First, the Democrats created a very dangerous non-American phenomenon: BLM.
        For today's world, this poses a real threat.
        1. Aag
          0
          1 February 2022 18: 40
          Quote: EMMM
          But you should not calm down!
          First, the Democrats created a very dangerous non-American phenomenon: BLM.
          For today's world, this poses a real threat.

          Do you really think that this is directly related to the topic of the article?!
          1. 0
            1 February 2022 18: 44
            No, this is just a response to the interlocutor.
            Sometimes the dialogue strays away from the main topic of the thread.
            1. Aag
              0
              1 February 2022 18: 51
              Quote: EMMM
              No, this is just a response to the interlocutor.
              Sometimes the dialogue strays away from the main topic of the thread.

              ... It happens ... But, "sidesteps", IMHO, should one way or another serve as the argument of the author of the post. So far, sorry, I don’t catch the connection.
  22. -1
    1 February 2022 01: 41
    Novel! Latest articles count! But they are not for everyone!
    1. Aag
      +2
      1 February 2022 15: 40
      Quote: Alien From
      Novel! Latest articles count! But they are not for everyone!

      Sorry - a different opinion - just for everyone! At a minimum, for all those present at "VO":
      - for for false (cheers) - patriots - an occasion, another chance to think;
      - for those who (each in their own field, activities, knowledge) sees problems (neglected, progressing, maturing ..), - a signal that he is not alone in his anxieties for the future ... (interpret as you wish, - Camps, children, Future, own, - in the end! ...). hi
  23. -2
    1 February 2022 08: 14
    The fleet must be air.
    1. Aag
      0
      1 February 2022 15: 43
      Quote: EvilLion
      The fleet must be air.

      ... Hmm .. If in the context under discussion, then not the WF (with all due respect, and understanding of the mobilization potential ...), but the Air Force!
  24. +1
    1 February 2022 09: 41
    Quote: EvilLion

    About theft, there is no need to provoke your Kiev realities on the Russian Federation. In Russia, theft was, is, and will be. But this theft is individual, and not as a national idea, like yours.

    You probably are somewhat unaware of what is happening in the field of public procurement. Try to offer something there at a commercial price. You will simply be stupidly thrown out at the stage of examination of the documentation. A simple example from the recent past. I offered my products at a price of 15 thousand per unit. The second company is priced at 45 thousand. The product is almost completely identical. The company won with a price of 45. The reason for our defeat is that I did not hurry up in time and did not conduct an examination of the products in the KRU for the reasonableness of the price, but they did. Of course, it is more profitable for the contractor to sell this for 45, and not for 15, since he will not be able to mark my products above the price indicated in the public price list. And so it is almost everywhere. And everything is according to the law, you will not find fault. And you say we have no national idea in this area.
  25. -1
    1 February 2022 09: 52
    I have only one question for the author about the vitality of the nation. So I generally agree, I would add the problems in education to the problem of the loss of personnel and the fact that the problem of education is not in a hurry to be solved. I have two teenagers growing up, so be aware of this.
    So the question is: why are Americans tenacious? I live in a city that is not the oldest in Russia, founded in 1784, how many years is the USA as a state older than my city? Yes, this state, by historical standards, exists negligibly, moreover, there is no continuity there, well, how, for example, the Persians can trace their history from modern Iran to the Achaemenids and the Median Empire.
    We have a lot of internal problems, but in the USA there are a lot of them and they cannot be solved. If Russia has a chance of regaining power, including naval power, then where will the United States get such a margin of safety from? Even whites didn’t mix there, the USA didn’t become a crucible in which peoples melt, and the descendants of Americans and Germans are in the first roles, then the Irish and Scots, and the most “garbage” is the Italians and then the Poles, this is not to mention Latinos and blacks .
    The state lives as long as there are mutual economic interests of its citizens, what are the mutual economic interests between these groups?
  26. +2
    1 February 2022 09: 54
    The situation is completely analogous to the British fleet of the time of Admiral Fisher 1902-1903. 1904-1910,
    The main transformations carried out by Fisher can be reduced to the following ... provisions: 1) reform of the system of education and training of naval officers; 2) redeployment of the main forces of the fleet and their concentration in the waters of the mother country; 3) reduction in the number of ships in the fleet by sending obsolete ships for scrapping;

    The reduction of the fleet at the expense of obsolete vessels made it possible to reduce budget expenditures for repairs and maintenance by a third. On many obsolete ships, they were armed with not just obsolete, but "museum exhibits" - copper guns!
    At the same time, archaic admirals were dismissed.
    But Fisher failed to increase the naval budget at the expense of the army budget.

    Funds for transformations had to be found from internal reserves. The only way that led to financial savings and made it possible to release an additional reserve of trained officers and sailors was to reduce the number of ships in the fleet due to obsolete ships that had lost their combat value. Fisher boldly took this measure, since he was convinced that it would not lead to a weakening of the fighting qualities of the navy. One of the commandments of the first sea lord read:The main duty of the navy is to be ready every minute to strike at the enemy, and this can only be achieved with a concentration of ships of undoubted combat value, absolutely not burdened with obsolete units.»


    Sounds relevant for the fleet at any time - even 118 years later, as it was said.

    However, they were completely unsuitable for military purposes. Not only that, a lot of money was spent on the maintenance of the antediluvian fleet. In the event of a collision with a strong sea power, all these ships would immediately become the prey of an enemy cruiser, which would destroy them without any damage to itself. They would not even be able to escape their fate due to insufficient speed. Officers and sailors of obsolete gunboats gradually lost their qualifications, being unable to train with modern types of naval weapons, as well as work out the joint maneuvers of ships while sailing as part of a squadron.

    At the initiative of Fisher, most of the ships that had served their time and the outdated basing system were eliminated. Fisher called this measure “Napoleonic in its boldness and Cromwellian in its thoroughness”: “... we returned home about 160 warships, which were unable to fight or escape, and the officers from which shot pheasants on Chinese rivers and drank tea with British consuls, What did these consuls write! How the Foreign Office raged!”

    D. V. LIKHAREV
    The era of Admiral Fischer.
  27. 0
    1 February 2022 17: 02
    Our entire life today is marked by the struggle between patriotism and common sense.

    Oh how.
    Ah, I thought stupid, sho is more difficult. Silly person. I AM.
    So those who steer this country are either "patriots" or people with "common sense". Yeah.
    Something doesn't add up, damn it.
    No, I understand that they are not "patriots" in your understanding, and that with "common sense", as it were, too ...
    But with common sense, not for the health of those living in our country, but, as it were, with health - IN GENERAL, in the global sense of the word, in the cosmopolitan one.
    This is yes.
    We are not nationalists. "Do you understand..."
  28. -1
    1 February 2022 18: 12
    However, in our industry, not everything is as perfect as we would like. We have exactly the same problems: lack of docks, industrial sites, factories, power plants for ships.

    Such is capitalism with us and with them.
    When we had socialism, it was a stimulator of their capitalism and our socialism.
    Now everything has changed. There is no stimulator. Hence the grief.
    Yes, China is still "stimulating" the states, but socialism there is so-so, not its own.
    If for me, the Empire of the States is also going through not the best and, apparently, the last times.
    The paradigm of the world is changing and the United States in its former form does not fit into it.
    About "us", in general, I am silent separately.
    Not a candle, not a poker...
  29. 0
    1 February 2022 18: 50
    >so it's there, there are such professionals (without scoffing, it's true) they make it very accessible and beautiful.

    I want to note that when I used TV for the last time (in high school), on Zvezda, there was a program about Fau, and so the whole series the talking monkey stubbornly called V-2 - V-1, I haven’t watched TV since then, And, of course, I don't regret anything. There are many more sources, much more valuable and objective information.
    Well, to Roman, classic gratitude for the article.)
    1. 0
      1 February 2022 20: 54
      Quote: Victor Tsenin
      So the whole series, the talking monkey stubbornly called V-2 - V-1

      However, you have a serious reason not to watch TV :)
      Just like you, I haven’t watched TV for at least 12 years (I don’t remember).
      True, I still don’t watch YouTube, Vkontakte and what else.
      I'm sorry, but the video as a presentation of information does not suit me because of its lengthy sequence, which is mandatory for the speed of its submission for viewing.
      I love the flow of free, square-nesting :), slow and not leading to where its author intended.
      Text and only text.
      Here, I really watch films 60-70-80 produced by the USSR, France-Italy.
      Well, what can you do.
      PS. In the past, he himself worked for many years on TV as a manufacturer of advertisements and screensavers (at home).
      1. 0
        1 February 2022 21: 11
        In general, I completely agree - the text is our everything. Well, plus, no advertising, no irritants, only cynic) Films, perhaps all sorts, but there’s nothing special to watch from the modern line, but you already know) For a smart text, it began to be.
  30. 0
    8 February 2022 16: 48
    I agree with everything, except for the assertion that the Americans are a tenacious nation. This is not known to science, they have never "survived".
  31. -1
    23 March 2022 16: 33
    Corruption is all around, if I’m not mistaken, Admiral Lazarev was allocated XNUMX million for recycling, you, what millions to pay someone else, they drove them to shallow water, and then the metalworkers will do everything themselves.
  32. 0
    30 March 2022 21: 27
    And what does the French ships in the first photo have to do with it?