Bases and ships: approaches to the deployment of forces and assets abroad

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Frigate "Admiral Kasatonov" project 22350

Developed countries strive to ensure the presence of their armed forces in all areas of the planet that are of interest to them. One of the best tools for solving this problem are bases abroad, capable of receiving formations of different types of troops. However, there is an opinion according to which modern and promising technologies make it possible to do without overseas facilities and get all the necessary opportunities.

Question of necessity


At the suggestion of Russian officials, the fundamental possibility of building our military bases on the territory of foreign countries has been discussed in recent weeks. As a possible location of such objects, the countries of Latin America are considered - friendly to Russia and as close as possible to the territory of a potential enemy in the face of the United States.



An interesting opinion on the issue of foreign bases was expressed by the head of the State Duma Defense Committee and former Deputy Defense Minister Andrei Kartapolov. On January 18, in the Solovyov.live program, he noted that modern weapons technologies make it possible to do without ground infrastructure abroad.


"Admiral Gorshkov" - the carrier of "Caliber" and "Zircons"

A kind of alternative for overseas bases, incl. in Latin America, named hypersonic weapon and its bearers. So, being at a given point in the Atlantic Ocean, a ship or submarine with a hypersonic missile can complete the assigned combat mission and immediately leave the launch area. With such capabilities, the need for bases in Cuba or Venezuela simply disappears.

Also A. Kartapolov noted the fundamental difference in the survivability and stability of objects and pennants fleet. A stationary ground base poses a threat to the enemy, but is itself vulnerable to his attacks. Ships and submarines, unlike her, are able to escape from the attack.

In general, the head of the Duma committee believes that Russia does not need bases on foreign territory. He also suggested that the possibility of their deployment is not even considered by the relevant departments and structures. However, the colonel-general did not rule out the appearance of bases.

base vs ship


Taking into account the deteriorating military-political situation, it is proposed to provide for the deployment of strike weapons at the maximum distance from our borders and at the minimum from the territory of a potential enemy. Such tasks can be solved with available forces and means, for example, in the form of the Navy, or with the help of new bases in remote countries.


Multi-purpose nuclear submarine "Severodvinsk" pr. 885 - the first underwater carrier of "Zircon"

Both of these approaches have pros and cons of various kinds. They must be taken into account when drawing up new strategies and when planning future military development. At the same time, the needs of the armed forces and their economic and other capabilities, which are of fundamental importance, must be taken into account.

An overseas military base has obvious advantages. At a land facility, it is possible to deploy all the necessary units and formations, to ensure the solution of combat missions and cover from all threats. At the same time, the composition of the garrison and, accordingly, the capabilities of the base can be changed in accordance with current needs and strategies.

However, the construction of such an object is complex and time consuming. It is necessary to find a country in the desired region that is ready to accept the base and all the risks associated with it, organize the construction and equipment of the necessary facilities, etc. At the same time, the construction of a base at a great distance from the borders is associated with well-known organizational, logistical and other difficulties. The operation of the already built and commissioned base will also not be simple and cheap.


Launch of "Zircon" boat "Severodvinsk"

Engaging submarines and surface ships of the Navy with the existing coastal infrastructure on combat duty does not fundamentally require new construction. Moreover, the ships of the fleet are already making trips to the sea, incl. to patrol in remote areas of the oceans. Patrol areas awaiting orders may also be located near the territory of a potential enemy.

The problems with this approach are mostly quantitative. Despite all the successes of shipbuilding in recent years, the number of carriers of hypersonic weapons does not yet allow organizing the constant duty of large ship groups at a great distance from their native shores. Increasing the overall performance of the fleet and the ability to access the oceans takes time and money.

Logistical support is necessary for constant and effective work in the other hemisphere. MTO points could appear in foreign ports, but their construction may also be associated with certain difficulties. However, deploying a supply point is much easier than building a full-fledged base.

Arms problem


In the context of an overseas base, the question arises of weapons designed to threaten the enemy and deter him. We do not yet have ground-based missile systems with the required level of performance. Perhaps in the foreseeable future, new models of land-based hypersonic weapons will appear. It is also fundamentally possible to deploy a long-range aviation and tactical aircraft with hypersonic weapons - if they correspond to the tasks set.


Corvettes of the project 20380 - "Courageous" and "Guarding"

The Navy, in turn, is already preparing to receive serial hypersonic weapons. This year, deliveries of Zircon missiles for use by surface ships will begin, and submarines will also receive them in a few years. With the help of such missiles, the fleet will be able to attack targets at ranges of at least 1000 km, and the interception of these weapons is currently almost impossible.

It should be recalled that the Zircon, according to known data, is an anti-ship missile. Accordingly, it can only be used to attack surface targets. However, based on the technologies of this project, other types of weapons can be created, incl. to destroy ground targets. It is obvious that the development of such a missile will take less time, and in the medium term it will be able to enter service.

In addition, we should not forget about other missiles aboard Russian ships. These products, inferior to the "Zircon" in flight characteristics, have their own tasks and fully comply with them. In addition, they make a ship or submarine a more flexible and effective tool for deterring the enemy or delivering strikes.

Future Strategy


The issue of strategic containment of a potential adversary is of critical importance for the security of our country. To this end, various weapons have already been created and deployed, and new models are being developed, incl. fundamentally new classes. In parallel, various plans are being considered, including the possibility of deploying new bases abroad.


"Guarding" in the sea

However, such ideas do not always find support. Thus, General Kartapolov, in his recent speech, suggested not to overestimate the idea of ​​deploying bases abroad. It is necessary to continue the development of existing forces and means with the use of recently emerging technologies and samples. This approach will solve all problems, but it will be simpler and faster.

In considering such ideas, one should be aware of the existence of other means of nuclear and conventional deterrence. They already meet the requirements, and besides, they are actively developing. Do they need to be supplemented with other forces and means, incl. surface or overseas - the big question.

It is not known which of the options for the development of deterrence forces will be chosen by our Ministry of Defense. However, it is clear that these measures will correspond to the current needs of the country and the army, threats and opportunities. Whether there will be a new foreign base among these measures, time will tell. The appearance of such an object will definitely not go unnoticed.
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  1. +1
    25 January 2022 18: 12
    One of the best tools for solving this problem are bases abroad, capable of receiving formations of different types of troops. However, there is an opinion that modern and advanced technologies allow you to do without overseas facilities - and get all the necessary opportunities.
    Exactly! Put an island on the Doger Bank, set up rockets, point at the insolents and let them try to sleep, for once. feel
    1. -1
      25 January 2022 19: 06
      Developed countries seek to ensure the presence of their armed forces not in all areas of the planet that are of interest to them. One of the best tools for this task

      Cyril, please correct.
      Thanks for the article.
      You consider only military issues, but do not touch on political ones, and they are no less important
    2. +3
      25 January 2022 19: 25
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Exactly! Put an island on the Doger Bank, set up rockets, aim at the insolents and let them try to sleep, for once

      You don't have to pour anything. Convert the oil platform into a launch complex of various weapons. Raise the St. Andrew's flag. Include in the Navy, drive to the Gulf of Mexico, next to the 200-mile economic zone in neutral waters. Drag the second to the Pacific coast.
      1. -4
        25 January 2022 20: 56
        unfortunately for many of those present here, I (like an ordinary conscript) agree with Kartopolov - 10 AB for 100 Vee will not help us, but they will definitely interfere. The control of Eurasia and the gradual expansion of that control by +000 km, + 100 km, + 500 km .... traditional forces and means for the RI-USSR-Russia, +++ new technologies.

        On 10 Av they will save us from the barmalei from the south and the south from the east.
        we will be squeezed and pinched on trifles. talking about the totalitarian past ... and the future of Russia (Putin is to blame for everything)

        bases are needed to scare the Amts ...
        if we bargain for 1-3-5 years with them on strategic parity and red zones beyond the red lines, it's already good.
        then the Lat Am bases are superfluous.
        but in Eurasia they are needed! and BBW, possibly in Africa (northern?)

        strictly according to financial flows - to protect the interests of corrupt bankers and businessmen ... taxes and excises .......
        economic feasibility ----- it is such a light substance and blooms and smells ..
  2. -1
    25 January 2022 18: 23
    Why do we need a base? Sell ​​Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina, etc. S-400s and coastal systems ... This will be beneficial for us and very good. it hurts for the Anglo-Saxons ... And for the period of crew training (that is, at least a year), our specialists will sit on them. By the way, they definitely can’t hit the ground with the S-400 ?!
    1. +2
      25 January 2022 19: 48
      Sell ​​Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina, etc. S-400s and coastal systems...

      The only problem here is that Cuba will pay C400 for about a century and a half, Venezuela and all six centuries. And Argentina has been in fallita for the last thirty years. Sell ​​them, take the money and get a peremptory Nobel in sales... laughing
      1. -2
        26 January 2022 10: 09
        Quote: Keyser Soze
        Venezuela and all six centuries

        What sick fantasies about Venezuela? This is one of the richest countries in oil resources, all of whose problems are due to US sanctions and the arrest of its dollar accounts. Venezuela has the most powerful and modern army in the region and a very well developed layered air defense system.
        So firstly, Venezuela does not currently need to purchase the S-400, it already has its analogue S-300VE. And a host of other complexes.
        Secondly, Venezuela pays for the supplied weapons with the supply of oil, which goes to the refineries of our companies in India. And higher world oil prices are accelerating the debt repayment process.
        Where did the debts of the previously non-poor oil country come from?
        From the social programs of Chavez and his heir Maduro. Construction at public expense of social housing for the poor from the favelas, schools, health care, the Army - all socialist stuffing. For this, loans were taken under the guarantee of oil supplies.
        This is where the US came in.
        Seizure of bank accounts, prohibition of banking transactions, trade embargo on the purchase of oil from Venezuela, seizure of property in the United States.
        In short, the entire arsenal of state terrorism, except for direct aggression. But the United States refrained from direct aggression - Venezuela is a tough nut to crack, and you can choke on it ... or maybe the whole region will blaze.
        So Venezuela pays off debts, conducts transactions through the Chinese and our settlement systems ... In principle, China could provide all consumer imports with its supplies, especially since its investments there are very considerable, and it is not at all possible to implement the program "oil in exchange for goods" hard .
        So it’s not worth dressing up in a beggar country with SUCH oil (and not only) reserves and climate. But to organize a "PMTO point" and rent an island for 50 years, it would be worth it, and quite. And an airbase.
      2. 0
        28 January 2022 11: 02
        And how much will the Ukrainians pay?, if we want to drive a stake in the ass of the FSA, we need to sacrifice something ...
      3. 0
        1 February 2022 14: 26
        Venezuelan debt can be taken away with oil. the Americans will buy it from us ... Argentina will pay, for it, after the activation of the Britons in the Malvinas, the s-400 is "manna from heaven" ... Cuba will give us sugar or lease a resort town to us for 25 years. Or do you not like "your own resort" near the USA?
    2. +3
      25 January 2022 20: 41
      This is funny Argentina! Take a look at a geographical or political map! (((
      1. 0
        7 February 2022 15: 41
        On the map, I see the Malvinas Islands next to Argentina, which caused the Argentine-British conflict relatively recently. Britain supplies weapons to Ukraine. I think that the supply of our weapons to Argentina will help the Britons think about the consequences ... So, what's wrong with the map, then ?!
    3. -1
      26 January 2022 06: 25
      Quote: MstislavHrabr
      but they definitely can’t hit the ground with the S-400 ?!

      They definitely can.
      But within radio visibility, i.e. pure last chance self-defense.
      There are already enough funds for the land - Grad, Tornado, Iskander ....
  3. +15
    25 January 2022 19: 40
    A kind of alternative for overseas bases, incl. in Latin America, hypersonic weapons and their carriers are named. So, being at a given point in the Atlantic Ocean, a ship or submarine with a hypersonic missile can complete the assigned combat mission and immediately leave the launch area.

    What kind of fantasy is Faryatyev?
    It seems that this nonsense is being smacked by some supernumerary correspondent, and not by the Deputy Minister of Defense.
    Here it is even difficult to oppose anything to this nonsense, because this military man himself is confused in his own testimony.
    How many km is the range of hypersonic weapons? 1000 - declared, 450 confirmed?
    Has this miracle general forgotten how to use the ruler?
    WHERE do you need to drag the Corvette or the notorious submarine to reach the strategic areas of the United States ???
    Are they there, completely stuck on substances?
    I especially liked the phrase "quickly leave the launch area." Yeah. At the speed of light, practically. Within 20 knots.
  4. 0
    25 January 2022 19: 47
    It should be recalled that the Zircon, according to known data, is an anti-ship missile. Accordingly, it can only be used to attack surface targets. However, based on the technologies of this project, other types of weapons can be created, incl. to destroy ground targets. It is obvious that the development of such a missile will take less time, and in the medium term it will be able to enter service.

    It should be recalled that the Zircon was tested both against surface targets and stationary ground targets. Modern technologies make it quite easy to add anti-ship missiles the ability to hit stationary ground targets (modern INS, cartography and satellite navigation to help), the main problem is only in warheads and expensive seeker, which is most likely not needed when working on stationary targets.
    1. +1
      26 January 2022 02: 54
      and expensive GOS, which is most likely not needed when working on stationary targets

      if there is no satellite navigation interference or if the target is not in a dense building.
      1. -1
        26 January 2022 06: 29
        Quote: Avior
        if the target is not in a dense building.

        And choo, GOS already know how to distinguish one building from another?
    2. 0
      30 January 2022 21: 37
      And what is the point of Zircon working on stationary targets, have we run out of ICBMs?
      1. 0
        31 January 2022 16: 44
        Quote: Ryusey
        And what is the point of Zircon working on stationary targets, have we run out of ICBMs?

        It's all about flight time, reaction time to a threat and the so-called disarming strike. That is why the Americans are so concerned about the possible deployment of missiles in Cuba, and we are in Ukraine and the Baltic countries.
        If it is possible to destroy the control system, communications and command centers with the first strike, then with the second strike, even before the enemy regains control, you can destroy his nuclear, military and industrial potential with impunity. But this scenario does not quite work for the United States, because the main nuclear potential of ballistic missiles is located on submarines.
  5. +2
    25 January 2022 19: 56
    The idea of ​​overseas territories is important. But in the current state, there is a need to have such a base only somewhere in the Mediterranean, and this is not about Syria, but on the contrary, a little further from it and Turkey.
    This is necessary so that our fleet, working off the coast of Syria, if necessary, can replenish supplies and rest without leaving the Mediterranean basin and, moreover, not pass through the narrow bottleneck of the Bosphorus.
    So, once having sent a fleet to Syria, part of the fleet for many years can perform a combat mission without coming close to Turkish waters and not being at risk from Turkey during its passage in the strait. For example, if you build a large coastal base in northern Africa, in Libya, Algeria or Egypt. Where else do we need a naval base - in the Pacific Fleet. All the same, the coast of the Pacific Fleet is well visible to Japan and the United States, and the presence of a base away from them, but with access to the ocean, would create a good springboard for maneuvering.
    1. +1
      26 January 2022 06: 40
      Quote: Mustachioed Kok
      if you build a large coastal base in northern Africa, in Libya, Algeria or Egypt

      Fantasy, unscientific.
      It’s already clear about Libya, there is a mess, a war, and it’s not even clear with whom to negotiate.
      Egypt is not our brother, friend or ally.
      Algeria, of course, buys weapons from us (and not from us either) and sometimes lets ships wait, but nothing more.
      1. 0
        26 January 2022 10: 40
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        Egypt is not our brother, friend or ally.

        Of course, Egypt is not a brother, but quite a friend and ally, and a base in the Suez region has long been offered to us.
        Another thing is that you need to engage in overseas base building when the Country has a Fleet. When there is something to place at those bases, than to ensure supply and logistics. In the meantime, we can only state that we have a geopolitical need for bases, but not very much for the Fleet and means of support.
        It’s easier in Venezuela - our and Chinese businesses work there, both ships are interested in us, and our planes will be accepted, but ... for such a policy, the Navy is needed.
        And for this it must be BUILT.
        And in order to build it, it is necessary to decide something with the leadership of the USC, from whose actions, as it were, no more harm than good.
        If the "new masters of Russia" have already become ambitious, then GOOD TO BUILD THE FLEET.
        And to speed up this process, turn on your brains and order what is possible at Chinese shipyards. Complex supply ships, UDC type. 071 and frigates 054A adapted to our requirements and tasks, they can build us quickly and inexpensively. And concentrate our own forces on the construction of a large series of pr. 22350M, the submarine fleet (the "Boreev-K" laying with the KR as a SSGN and the development of MAPLs of moderate VI and cost) and something aircraft carrier.
        A smart ruler uses every opportunity for his own benefit and the benefit of his State. Refusal to order eight frigates and two UDC 071 in China cannot be called smart.
        1. +3
          26 January 2022 13: 07
          Quote: bayard
          Of course, Egypt is not a brother, but quite a friend and ally, and a base in the Suez region has long been offered to us.

          Egypt has long and firmly been sitting on the credit needle of the Gulf monarchies. Which we are by no means an ally.
          We already had a "allied Egypt" at the beginning of Sadat's rule. smile
          1. 0
            26 January 2022 14: 42
            The military rules in Egypt, and Sisi remembers who supported and helped him in overthrowing the power of the "Muslim brothers". And who created these "Muslim brothers" for them and incited them. Egypt buys our weapons, pursues a joint policy towards Libya, a considerable industrial and investment cluster of the Russian Federation has been created in the free economic zone of Suez. And they offered us a base in the Suez region, not a naval one, but for basing up to a battalion of marines + other units - in the immediate vicinity of the FEZ and to assist in ensuring the safety of navigation through the canal.
            In short, Egypt has an interest, and not so much against someone, but for itself.
            And the decision to open a base in Sudan was made not out of foolishness, but to ensure the safety of traffic - we have a large LNG traffic from the Arctic to India (and India is a co-investor of the project), and "bottlenecks" must be protected and controlled.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            We already had a "allied Egypt" at the beginning of Sadat's rule

            Here, too, everything is not so simple, it was the result of tacit agreements and an exchange for the US withdrawal from Vietnam. At that time, Egypt was already weighing us down with its eternal wars and regular defeats, after which it demanded even more weapons and help ... The USSR in general, for the sake of saving it, had to deploy its expeditionary army in Egypt (as a military association), which included an air defense corps, tank and infantry formations, formations, aviation ... our soldiers and officers died there, and this situation could lead to a global conflict, with the United States and NATO on the side of Israel.
            And if because of something worthwhile, and here ... the Wishlist of Arab gangs who dream of a united Arab Republic and the destruction of Israel ... and regularly losing wars ...
            In short, then Egypt was exchanged for Vietnam, and the Detente and Soyuz-Apollo came.
            ... And then the United States pledged to Egypt annual billions in subsidies and arms supplies ... So Camp David also turned out to be "friendship for money." More precisely, not even friendship, but "non-war with Israel."
        2. 0
          26 January 2022 13: 23
          again Chinese ships ... i.e. the probability that after that we will lose our shipyards is not taken into account? do you know HOW the Chinese do business?
          1. 0
            26 January 2022 15: 01
            Quote: Barberry25
            ..those. the probability that after that we will lose our shipyards is not taken into account?

            As far as one can say, their shipyards should be engaged in the construction of ships of the main classes, for emergency replenishment of the fleets. Frigates 22350 are stuck at our shipyards without a diesel-gas turbine power plant, the launch of the 22350M project is being prepared - already in fact and in fact - a destroyer, of which 20 - 24 pieces are to be built. at several shipyards at the same time. This is what our shipyards will be loaded to the eyeballs.
            PLO frigates based on 054A are needed for essentially inland waters (the Sea of ​​​​Okhotsk, the Sea of ​​​​Japan) and the protection of the deployment areas of our SSBNs. And ordering them from Chinese shipyards will not at all reduce the load on domestic shipyards.
            But the Pacific Fleet will strengthen it.
            As well as ordering integrated supply ships and UDC type. 071, because our landing craft are worn out and need to be replaced.
            Quote: Barberry25
            you don't know HOW the Chinese do business?

            And how do the French lead you in the know?
            It is important how the Russian Federation will conduct its business.
            Moreover, such an order would be a serious advertisement for China.
            Yes, and they themselves are interested in this.
            1. -2
              26 January 2022 15: 24
              well, let me ask a simple question - where can I get an extra 1 trillion rubles to order a series from China of 20 corvettes and frigates? about
              It is important how the Russian Federation will conduct its business.
              taking into account HOW the Ministry of Defense conducts business after ordering ships from China, the same NEA can be closed and cut into scrap because it is still difficult to find bigger pests than our generals / admirals
              1. +1
                26 January 2022 15: 50
                Quote: Barberry25
                well, let me ask a simple question - where to get an extra 1 trillion rubles to order a series

                In the budget.
                He is horror in the Russian Federation as a surplus. Last year, even budget funds "saved" more than a trillion!
                And this year, gold reserves alone have replenished by as much as 120 billion dollars (translate into rubles yourself), so this is enough for almost a dozen such programs. And after all, these are amounts received IN ONE YEAR, and dangling aimlessly in egg-pods.
                And where did you draw a trillion?
                If the frigate built according to our project will cost no more than 350 million dollars.
                Even if you build 20 frigates (and not 8, as indicated by me), this will result in:
                350 million dollars x 20 pcs. = 7 billion dollars.
                For 700 million dollars. for 10 years.
                But 7 billion dollars. it's still not a trillion rubles.
                Or you counted there also 4 UDC type. 071 and pieces 6 - 8 ships of complex supply?
                Well, maybe, if you still load it properly with spare parts and calculate the cost of training crews.

                smile So why did a trillion rubles frighten and puzzle you so much?
                Only from a surplus in foreign trade, the Russian Federation receives an ownerless profit per year for several such programs.
                And this despite the fact that most of the cost of these frigates will remain in Russia - weapons and all combat systems make up to 70% of the cost of the entire ship, and they will be Russian.
                And they will be completed / armed at the outfitting facilities of the Amur Shipyard in Vladivostok and at the Vladivostok Shipyard.
                Less than half of that trillion will break off from China. And this is taking into account the cost of UDC and supply ships.
                And their integrated supply ships turned out to be quite good.
                Quote: Barberry25
                taking into account HOW the Ministry of Defense conducts business after ordering ships from China, the same ASZ can be closed and cut into scrap because

                lol What is "because"?
                The Amur Shipyard, in addition to the completion / armament of these frigates (in Vladivostok, not at its Amur facilities), will have a very large and promising order - 6 (six) destroyers pr. 22350M. A commission from the Navy and USC has already visited the plant, looked at boathouses and stocks, and checked the readiness for this order.
                They should modernize and expand at the right time, and not think about gas cutters.
                So - the Amur Shipyard will be full not only with corvettes. It's time to open a vocational school and a technical school - to forge personnel to expand production.
                1. -2
                  26 January 2022 16: 05
                  those. we DO NOT find money for the development of shipyards and the intensification of production, but we will sharply find money for the purchase of Chinese handicrafts? Rather, they will be taken from the fleet development program, i.e. our shipyards will not receive money .. Yes, even if not a trillion, but half a trillion is a lot of money. And the completion scheme is a breakdown of current production chains, in other words, NEA will then restore competence for another 10 years. I already wrote - if you want to get a lot of ships quickly and - you need to spend money on serial projects, intensifying production and guaranteeing large portfolios. And about frigates at the NEA, these are only promises so far with the best case of issuing the first ship in 7 years, and taking into account the attitude of the Moscow Region we can again get a long-term construction because the MO has never been able to industry from the word at all
                  1. 0
                    26 January 2022 16: 51
                    Quote: Barberry25
                    those. not the development of shipyards and the intensification of production, we DO NOT find money

                    There is money for everything, but they are in reserves, because in the Russian Federation, as the losing side in the Cold War, there is its own Chancellor Act. The monetization of the Russian economy today is 40% of GDP at a rate of 100%.
                    In the 90s, monetization was generally 4%.
                    Remember what it resulted in?
                    By the end of 2004, Putin paid off foreign debts, canceled the "Product Sharing Law" and rewrote the Chancellor Act. We raised monetization to 40%, and I hope you remember how the economy breathed (7-10% GDP growth per year) and the standard of living rose. But in 2010 a plateau was reached and further growth became very problematic. For the entire inch from foreign trade, according to the budgetary rule, was sent to the "box", without the right to use it, except for a few permitted cases - external investments and international events ... And the Sports Boom began in the country - the Olympics, Spartakiades, Universiades, Championships. .. and all the time in different cities and regions. Thus, funds were drawn from the egg-shell and the social environment and infrastructure of the regions developed ...
                    what is happening now is another attempt to get rid of the chancellor act, or at least rewrite it again.
                    They don't let us rewrite it and they don't allow us to abolish it. But this year everything will be decided.
                    Quote: Barberry25
                    .And the completion scheme is a breakdown of the current production chains, in other words, the NEA will then restore competence for another 10 years.

                    Well, don't make me laugh. I mentioned the outfitting capacities of the ASSS in Vladivostok along with the Vladivostok Shipyard, for this they will have to sharply replenish personnel, because there will be a lot of work, and scheduled repairs and modernization cannot be canceled.
                    And the Amur Shipyard, as it built corvettes for the Pacific Fleet, it will be so, more orders were thrown to it, it’s good to cope with the order and increase the pace. And he has a reserve in terms of capacities and slipways, and therefore they are going to build 22350M there. But the lead one will most likely be laid in 2024 in St. Petersburg, so the Komsomol members have time to prepare production and personnel. Plus, they also have an order for Pacific RTOs. They have already been provided with work for a couple of decades ahead, they have earned good.
                    But until the industry is able to provide a sufficient quantity and quality of domestic power plants, shipbuilding will wind up snot in anticipation.
                    GEM will go - ships will go.
                    Quote: Barberry25
                    - if you want to get a lot of ships quickly, you need to spend money on the serialization of projects, intensification of production and guarantees of large portfolios.

                    So it seems that things are going to that - 22350M are going to be built in a series of 20 - 24 pieces. , this is a very large series for the Russian Federation (and for the USSR too). But while the project is being prepared and the GEM. The old problem is the gearbox.
                    Quote: Barberry25
                    And about NEA frigates, these are only promises so far with the best case of issuing the first ship in 7

                    I think no less than the first one ready for ASSS. It just seems to me that even before the laying down, this project will be reclassified into a destroyer, because its VI will grow a little more, I think up to 8 - 000 tons, because now the project is being redone again, already under 9 cells in eight UKKS, plus a tripled missile defense system compared to 000 . If only they didn’t start remodeling the air defense system (RLK), otherwise there will again be a long-term construction. If changes are made, then already in the second sub-series, having checked and debugged everything on an experimental vessel.
                    Quote: Barberry25
                    MO has never been skillful in industry from the word at all

                    I would not be so categorical. And it's not the case of the MO-industry. This is the business of the defense industry and the Ministry of Industry and Trade. The military issue a technical assignment and carry out acceptance. And the difficulties in the defense industry are precisely due to the rupture of cooperation chains and lost industries and competencies. The Russian Federation is still not the Soviet Union - without Ukrainian enterprises and its own electronic industry, it is difficult to build a military-technical autarchy.
                    1. -1
                      26 January 2022 17: 03
                      leave the nonsense about the "chancellor act" to others for another topic, and the ASZ began building after he went through bankruptcy proceedings and was able to write off debts + proved that he could build corvettes at a higher price than before. If the fleet wants to get a lot of ships and in a short time, then it is necessary to PROVIDE conditions for the construction of ships, i.e. 1) serial production - no need to change the project, otherwise we don’t actually have a single ship in a series of corvettes with identical equipment 2) intensity and guarantee of continuing the series
            2. 0
              26 January 2022 15: 26
              not to mention the fact that the Chinese "corvette" is the level of our RTOs, and the Chinese "frigate" is the level of our corvette ..
              1. 0
                26 January 2022 16: 08
                The Chinese frigate has 48 Shtil missiles. smile
                For comparison, on the Russian frigate pr. 11356 there are only 24 Shtilya missiles.
                And he has VI (054A) 4000 - 4500 tons, so everything that is needed for anti-submarine warfare and strike missions will stand on him.
                Namely - instead of and in place of a battery of 48 "Shtil" missiles from 2 to 4 UKKS (it all depends on the weight balance and the addition of buoyancy from a rather large bulb of the podkilny GAS from our pr. 20380),
                - instead of PU anti-ship missiles on the waist - PU ZUR "Reduta" (from 24 to 48 pcs.) Short-range (up to 40 km.),
                - instead of TA - "Package-NK,
                - BUGAS,
                - ZAK "Duet" or AK-630.
                The price will come out no more than 350 million dollars, of which the Chinese will get 30 percent for the hull, power plant and general ship filling ... maybe 35.
                Everything else - to the domestic manufacturer.
                Quote: Barberry25
                Chinese "corvette" is the level of our RTOs

                So our RTOs are small corvettes, we simply call them according to the Soviet tradition.
                1. 0
                  26 January 2022 16: 32
                  I already once wrote that the terms of such contracts will be long and it’s really EASIER to invest this money in our shipyards than to rebuild shipyards to “finish Chinese ships” ... Production is not planting potatoes in a garden plot, but a complex and lengthy process that MO in principle, it refuses to take it into account, and instead of my WANTS, it is necessary to clearly formulate the TK based on the I CAN ... After all, the same 11356 frigates that the naval ones spat on were built quickly, but now the same Karakurts cannot give birth due to the fact that the naval ones want speed for themselves taller
                  1. 0
                    26 January 2022 17: 13
                    Quote: Barberry25
                    .After all, the same frigates 11356

                    Which were built in 3-3,5 years - these are the real rates of construction that the industry is able to demonstrate, with well-functioning cooperation chains. But I repeat for the hundredth time - after the break with Ukraine, we do not have our own ship power plants, and what was issued to the Admiral Golovko has not yet been tested and will not be tested until summer. The quality and characteristics will be confirmed - the frigates standing on the stocks will be completed quickly and within an acceptable time frame. but we don’t even have normal marine diesel engines. Kolomna diesel engines are low-speed and insufficient in power (diesel locomotive), and the diesel "Stars" have not yet been put into production, which is why the "Karakurts" are built with hulls waiting for engines. And there are problems with gearboxes, which is why the power plant for corvettes 20380 \ 20385 is also issued at an unacceptable pace.
                    Before the break with Ukraine, all power plants came from Nikolaev. Their while are born with difficulty.
                    And all this is the result of miscalculations and mistakes in 2014, when Ukraine could be returned, but there was not enough will.
                    1. -1
                      26 January 2022 17: 54
                      1)The engine is already in serial production
                      2) for the same watchdogs based on Karakurt, the current Kolomna diesel engines will be enough, and there they will start producing medium-speed ones
                      3) we need gearboxes for power plants, but this is also not a very big problem. A difference of 3-5 knots for BMZ ships or displacements up to 3 is not critical,
                      4) a balanced approach is needed, i.e. not to spray money on the Chinese, but to study the problems of shipyards and solve them, and they are simple:
                      - debt load of shipyards, which does not allow hiring and developing production
                      - the need for modernization
                      - a large package of orders i.e. MO should GUARANTEE that in case of early execution of the order for the series, they immediately load the shipyards and not half a year they crumple their tits and go to the shipyards 7 times where they explain on their fingers the need for an order now, and not in 2 years ..

                      The fleet needs a MASS product, even to the detriment of performance characteristics
                      1. 0
                        26 January 2022 18: 10
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        1)The engine is already in serial production

                        What kind ?? What was put on the "Head" has not even been tested on the move, and the second set is only being loaded into the hull of the next frigate. There is no series yet, although the order has been placed.
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        ) for the same watchdogs based on Karakurt, the current Kolomna

                        No, not enough - "Karakurts" are not designed for such. From the word at all.
                        Neither in size, nor in turnover, nor in staged places. And no one will remake the project for such nonsense.
                        They will wait for their "Stars" and get in line.
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        A difference of 3-5 knots for BMZ ships or displacements up to 3 is not critical,

                        This is not so, and the unsuccessful pursuit of the English destroyer is a witness to this.
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        ) a balanced approach is needed, i.e. do not spray money on the Chinese, but study the problems

                        As long as you study the problems, and then modernize, retrain or train personnel from scratch and try to build something after all this, the Fleet will be completely without ships.

                        While their CVDs are not able to build ships due to the lack of engines, they must be built in other places. The main thing is to build and saturate fleets.
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        The fleet needs a MASS product, even to the detriment of performance characteristics

                        The fleet needs real ships, not dances with a tambourine around fantasies of upgrades without engines.
                        And without damage to the main performance characteristics.
                      2. -2
                        26 January 2022 19: 15
                        for Kolomna corvettes, and the gas turbine engine is already in production, about Karakurt, they still have to be remade taking into account PLO, so it’s better to remake immediately for normal engines than Zvezda, which are not there, How many Karakurts were delivered? How many from the moment "we need Karakurt" of them built? 3 pieces, but how many buyans and patrolmen with Kolomna? Six pieces .. About "yet their own CVDs are not capable", apparently it is not necessary to build, since you are proposing to build in China, you just want to ask ... you are production in the eyes seen?
                      3. 0
                        26 January 2022 20: 20
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        for corvettes-Kolomensky

                        They are for corvettes and they go, but with gearboxes for them, the pace is not very good.
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        gtd already in production

                        The gas turbines themselves are not a problem, and for a long time already, the problem is again in the gearboxes. Only in them.
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        Karakurts, they still need to be redone, taking into account PLO

                        Who told you this? Nobody will change anything. There are about five or six engine cases waiting for them there, for the production of engines, production was almost resumed from scratch, the gearboxes again, and only their diesel "stars" (formerly an aircraft engine) will get into the "Karakurt". As an alternative, only two M75 GTUs can be proposed here, but this is again a completely different project and a very complex gearbox. So just wait for the engines and put them into operation.
                        But "Super-Karakurt" will be with a completely different power plant.
                        And with a different displacement.
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        About "so far they are not capable of their own CVDs", apparently it is not necessary to build

                        And what is this pearl?
                        If they are not capable, then they are NOT CAPABLE.
                        They can't mean!
                        This means that only hulls that will be stuck on the stocks or will be launched empty will be able to build.
                        The meaning of the order in China is only that China cannot supply us with licensed, French diesel engines only, they can be exported only as part of a product. Therefore, the Chinese offered us to supply frigates with hulls for our saturation. There is no other way out.
                        But if the engines could be used separately, then such a power plant (as on 54A) would exactly fit our 20385 - it was originally planned to use a power plant on German diesel engines of the same power - 4 x 8 l / s ... That's just a frigate always much better than a corvette. Especially for the same money. (000 million dollars).
                        And the construction of frigates in China will not affect the construction of ships in the Russian Federation. Unless it will allow you to learn how to build ships, practicing the SRZ and the fitting out capacities of the ASZ in the completion and fine-tuning of Chinese hulls.
                      4. -2
                        26 January 2022 21: 04
                        for corvettes and watchdogs based on RTOs, it’s easier to expand the production of gearboxes than to translate an order for the Chinese, not to mention the loss of reputation, a decrease in the load of the NEA due to the fact that we order 41 from China for 20 ships to be replaced, so after construction 11 corvettes and RTOs will need to be planted with NEAs for suction in the form of several frigates, and knowing our Defense Ministry, they will eventually merge the construction of frigates in favor of the Chinese, because it is not supposed to think ahead in the army by charter ..
                        Unless it will allow you to learn how to build ships, practicing the SRZ and the fitting out capacities of the ASZ in the completion and fine-tuning of Chinese hulls.


                        This is generally brilliant .. let's ruin the production of ships, but ship repairers will learn how to replace equipment .. and yes, about ships without engines, they didn’t give up to us, for the time that they can build and drive their hulls to us at NEA much easier and faster they will build the same buildings on already proven projects .. about incapable - this means there are problems and they are not solved by the banal stupid army "fix", but are solved by a thoughtful approach and order .. You see how funny it turned out .. you once together with the Jacket they started about "we urgently need to order corvettes and frigates in China", and you ended up saying that "well, the Chinese, at best, will be able to build us hulls" ..
                      5. -2
                        26 January 2022 19: 15
                        and yes, about fantasies, this is for you, who is "where to get the money from, from the egg" ...
                      6. 0
                        26 January 2022 20: 23
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        "Where do you get the money from - from the egg

                        I wrote - "From the budget" because it is chronically surplus, and the program will require no more than 700 million dollars. in year.
                        When paying a Chinese contractor no more than 250 million dollars. in year .
                        The remaining 450 million - in rubles and their own.
                      7. -2
                        26 January 2022 21: 05
                        why the hell should we order hulls in China, when NEA can build them itself?
                      8. -1
                        26 January 2022 21: 09
                        Shipyards can ensure high rates of construction of the same type of ships with an established technological chain with subcontractors and a large order or through the hiring of additional. personnel, or through an increase in personnel per unit of construction .. in other words, either conditionally use 600 installers on 10 ships laid down at the same time, or use 300 on 10, but at the rate of 60 installers on 2-3 ships at the same time, while preparatory work is being carried out on the remaining with the subsequent transfer of brigades to new ships, but this requires a large order and normal funding - if the Ministry of Defense throws 1 billion per ship, this will allow you to calmly build them one and a half times faster
  6. +8
    25 January 2022 20: 14
    The fundamental difference in relation to foreign bases between Russia and the United States is that we want to get bases in order to threaten the enemy, and the United States is building bases in order to control the region in which the base is located! wassat

    The American way is right! With the help of the base, you knock out an entire region from the enemy, limiting his capabilities! The more regions you control, the less opportunities the enemy has, he is constrained in actions. And it is not your Zircons that bind his actions, but the forces of your allies! To which Zircons will only be a plus. Ensuring the protection of the base on your own is extremely difficult, but relying on the protection of the armed forces of an ally is real!
    The base is primarily a conductor of regional policy, and not a place from where we will threaten the Swede.
    1. -1
      25 January 2022 20: 53
      It's all in theory. In practice, from recent history, Germany during the 3rd Reich could tell a lot about what it takes to rely on allies in the event of a strong enemy. It’s good if they just betray, or they can turn bayonets against you.
    2. -1
      26 January 2022 10: 59
      Quote: Eroma
      ! With the help of the base, you knock out an entire region from the enemy, limiting his capabilities!

      Quite right. And given that Venezuela has the largest oil reserves and the strongest army in the region, and Nicaragua has a huge strategic prospect in terms of building the Nicaraguan Canal for ships of ANY size (which Panama Canal can no longer and is overloaded), and Cuba is simply VERY well located to control everything the eastern and southern coasts of the United States, then our bases will spoil the blood of the adversary pretty much, and the economic interest in this region is not very small and may well pay off the upcoming expenses.
      If a military-political Union of these states is created, with the participation of, say, Russia, Iran, and maybe even the DPRK (a nuclear socialist power that needs oil and is offended by the United States) ... China usually walks on its own ... then it can turn out to be a very interesting combination ... And economic chains.
      And a very painful crap for the US.
  7. +4
    25 January 2022 23: 25
    It should be recalled that the Zircon, according to known data, is an anti-ship missile. Accordingly, it can only be used to attack surface targets.
    And here again the question to which the cheers-comrades cannot normally answer is TsU ...
  8. +1
    26 January 2022 06: 20
    It is not known which of the options for the development of deterrence forces will be chosen by our Ministry of Defense.

    But Cyril built a whole article ....
    This is what I've always envied. So to be able to make material for several pages out of nothing is a real talent.
  9. +2
    26 January 2022 09: 44
    However, the colonel-general did not rule out the appearance of bases.

    ....and after these words, a fantasy novel in the spirit of Alexander Romanovich Belyaev begins!
    One of the best tools for solving this problem are bases abroad, capable of receiving formations of different types of troops.

    recourse I also dream of a summer cottage on the Cote d'Azur ...
  10. 0
    26 January 2022 12: 31
    It seems to me that the most convenient place for a base in the Mediterranean is Carthage. Historically, this is the place where you can control the whole of southern Europe, the Middle East. Airfield, missile base with Iskanders, naval base. In exchange for a base, offer Tunisia a stream of our tourists plus a company of green men to help local law enforcement officers. fool soldier
  11. -1
    26 January 2022 12: 56
    Yes, a Venezuelan island for 50 years would not be bad. ZRS-400/500 division there, "Shell", "Bastionchikov". Put the runway at 3000 meters. Eh ... You can arrange joint maneuvers a couple of times a year with landings. Cubans, Venisuelans, Nicaraguans ...
  12. 0
    28 January 2022 21: 02
    The base is good. But if the Dragon died and the base died. As long as the dictator is alive and allows this is possible. And then, like "The cavalry guard is short-lived (of the dictator)", collect coins? Sudan?? With a non-consistent foreign policy, is it possible to claim something? Yeah, a felt-tip pen appeared and I ask my red lines to be returned as of 1997, or whatever we have been doing all this time. Extremely dubious activities.