Veterans are getting younger. Isn't it too late?

154
Veterans are getting younger. Isn't it too late?
Source: forums.airbase.ru

In the bowels of the Russian military department, a decision was made to extend the service life of Project 949a Antey submarines with their subsequent modernization.

This post has both pros and cons.



What the modernization will consist of is not directly reported, the only information available is that the boats will be re-equipped from Granites to Onyxes and Calibers.

Let's put it this way: this is a long overdue action that can only be assessed positively. Yes, the P-700 "Granite" at one time was simply awesome weapons. Forty years ago. Rearmament to more modern missiles is welcome.


Modernization with the replacement of impact weapons is not such an expensive business. Modifications have undergone only launch containers, which can accommodate 72 cruise missiles. What is more profitable, 24 "Granite" or 72 "Onyx" - the question, of course, is an interesting one. With Onyxes and Calibers, boats will become more versatile and will be able to work on smaller targets.

Yes, 300 kg of the Onyx warhead and 450 kg for the Caliber are not 750 kg for the Granite, however, this is more than enough for the majority of modern ships. We can recall the effectiveness of the Exocet anti-ship missile, which has a warhead mass of only 165 kg, and the list of ships and vessels sunk during the Iran-Iraq wars of this anti-ship missile exceeded a hundred.

Well, we also remember the first loss in the world from anti-ship missiles, which was the Exocet, the British destroyer Sheffield.

Therefore, re-equipment with more modern weapons is a completely justified step.

The only thing that really confuses is the age of the carriers. The youngest, K-150 "Tomsk", has been serving since 1996, that is, "only" 26 years. The oldest, K-132 "Irkutsk" - since 1988, that is, 34 years old.


Yes, it can be said about Irkutsk that the boat has little wear and tear, it has been under repair for 13 (!) years, which no one has carried out. And only in 2019 did we begin to move forward in this regard. Although it’s hard to say which is worse, waiting for repairs or being in working order.

In general, without data on the wear and tear of boats, it is difficult to say how effective this business is - such a modernization. If the housings, cable routes and reactors guarantee another 10-15 years of service - why not?

After all, our overseas potential alignment is about the same: “Ohio” and “Los Angeles” have been serving since the same 80s and it seems like nothing.

Moreover, as part of the modernization, Anteyam is promised to update all electronic giblets, starting with the installation of a new BIUS, Omnibus-M. They promise to install new means of communication and, importantly, a new hydroacoustic complex. Again, there is no data on the GAK, but apparently, it will be the Irtysh-Amphora, because we don’t have anything more modern.

So, first "Irkutsk" will still be repaired, then the turn of "Chelyabinsk" will come.
Well, if so. Well, simply because back in 2018, Deputy Defense Minister Borisov and Deputy Prime Minister Rogozin talked about the same thing. That modernization, re-equipment and so on will begin by 2021.

Fist "Antey": what will be the submarine 949A after modernization

That is, all this has already been in fact. Replacements, modernization, re-equipment ... By 2021, FOUR modernized submarines were to come to the Pacific Fleet.

But something prevented Borisov and Rogozin. And the plans, as we usually do, were reset to zero. And now they are talking about them again.

To what extent can these cheerful and optimistic promises be trusted at all? After all, if you delve well into the information field, then the first proposals for the modernization of boats of projects 949A and 971 began in the now distant 2008. It was then that for the first time they started talking about the fact that the boats in a good way would have to go through the repair of the main systems, the replacement of electronics and automation with new ones and, of course, re-equipment with newer models.

It was 16 years ago. Much has been said about this, it is not worth repeating. It is only worth noting that if the modernization program really started in 2009, then by today it would be easy to have a total salvo of nuclear submarines of about 300-400 Caliber. For comparison: all surface ships of the Russian fleet can fire 150-160 missiles simultaneously.

Many experts at one time criticized the Buyan RTO project, saying that the modernization of nuclear submarines for Caliber is a much more effective business. One can argue, because in the conditions of our "puddles", the Black, Caspian and Baltic, a small rocket ship with "Caliber" is quite a good weapon. Where a nuclear submarine cannot be stuffed.

However, the modernization of nuclear submarines has not begun. Since 2013, they tried to do something with the same "Irkutsk" and "Chelyabinsk", but, judging by the voiced promises, nothing really was done, and therefore they announced that the repair would start again.

And the boats are not getting any younger. And 949 years have passed since the first talk about the "calibration" of Project 16A boats. Well, if "Irkutsk" just stood at the quay wall of the plant for 13 years. And those boats that served? They were subjected to physical stress, equipment was worn out, and so on.


That is, these are not the same boats that were 10 or more years ago. We must understand. How should one understand the fact that no matter how you modernize, the service life cannot be extended by more than 10 years. Well, of course, if, like Marshal Shaposhnikov, half of the new building is not made.

That is, by the time of 2030, the boats (modernized or not) will still be decommissioned. This is normal, they will be around 40-45 years old on average.


What's next?

And then more questions. It seems that there should have been Yasen-M, project 855M, but to replace the Soviet nuclear-powered ships, of which we still have quite a lot (7 boats of project 949A, 9 boats of project 971, 2 boats of project 945, 2 boats of project 945A, 2 boats 671RTMK) we have in the plan 6 (SIX) boats of project 885M.

The calculator is terrible. Instead of 22 boats, we are ready to build 6.

It becomes clear that after 2030 the number of universal nuclear submarines in the Russian fleet will be reduced by three times. We do not consider strategic cruisers, they have a completely different and very highly specialized task.

How much will the combat capability drop? Another calculator.

7 boats of project 949A with "Caliber" - this is a salvo of 504 missiles. 6 boats of project 855M - 300. Everything, you can not count further, everything will only be more sad for longer.

Who is to blame for the fact that Yasen-M is an analogue of the American Seawolf, and costs so much that the country is simply not able to build the required number of these boats purely financially?

The Americans abandoned the Seawulf, and they did the right thing. We have not abandoned Ash, simply because there is nothing else, and cannot be in the near future.

The modernization of Soviet submarines, as well as the modernization of Soviet surface ships, is an absolutely temporary measure. Neither the Peter the Great, nor the Admiral Nakhimov, nor the unfortunate Project 1155 BOD, from which frigates are obtained with the displacement of the destroyer - all these attempts are only a temporary measure to plug holes in the Russian fleet. But the number of holes will only increase as the ships age, and these black holes will absorb billions and billions, giving nothing in terms of the country's defense capability.

Today we can conclude that the Soviet legacy is over. And the “trishkin caftan” in the person of the same “Admiral Kuznetsov”, who, like his French counterpart, costs more to repair and eats money in wagons - this is not maintaining the defense capability of the fleet and the country. It's just a waste of money.

The modernization of Project 949A submarines is a measure that will give another 10 years. Then - then there will be a bottom, which they have been knocking on for a long time.


And all that the Russian leadership in general and the Ministry of Defense in particular needs today is an understanding of the processes that will begin when the modernization of Soviet weapons systems becomes meaningless. And how will we meet this moment - fully armed or with a dozen boats and skeletons of old ships.

In general, I would like the Russian fleet to become at least a semblance of the fleet of Japan, and not Ukraine. But we have no more than 15 years to understand these processes by the country's leadership.
154 comments
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  1. +1
    23 January 2022 05: 21
    It's not just a waste of money. This is another smart cut. What's what, and it's perfectly able to do. And ends in the water.
    1. +18
      23 January 2022 05: 49
      As far as I know, the first warship sunk by anti-ship missiles was not the Sheffield, but the Israeli destroyer Eilat. And boats .... And what about boats, a reflection of those orders and what has been built over more than 20 years in our country. "Saw economy" it is so ...
      1. +6
        23 January 2022 06: 45
        Quote: Snail N9
        As far as I know, the first warship sunk by anti-ship missiles was not the Sheffield, but the Israeli destroyer Eilat.

        Here we are talking about a specific RCC.
        1. +10
          23 January 2022 07: 13
          Quote: Dart2027
          Here we are talking about a specific RCC.

          It was generally about the first victim of anti-ship missiles.
          Well, we also remember the first loss in the world from anti-ship missiles, which was the Exocet, the British destroyer Sheffield.
          1. +2
            23 January 2022 08: 13
            This is Skomorokhov. It is easy to recognize as well as Damantsev. He has not heard about the new ICAPL project, which has been talked about for several years.
            1. -40
              23 January 2022 08: 58
              Then - then there will be a bottom, into which they have been knocking for a long time.
              -then soup with a cat.

              after 30 g, hydrogen energy will take its place, it is very explosive and complex. simple 1 pc KR from Sharya or Smorgon from Sakhalin - and FSE to dust

              the fleet and the army will not be needed ... or is there no one to conduct and receive parades? - then keep the guard of honor divisions.
            2. +40
              23 January 2022 10: 48
              Quote: URAL72
              He has not heard about the new ICAPL project, which has been talked about for several years.

              Are you talking about Husky? Alas, the project testifies rather that the designers are determined to get the maximum amount of funds with the minimum of effort and not be responsible for it for as long as possible.
              1. 0
                23 January 2022 23: 00
                Forgive Andrey, maybe you are right, but hope still glimmers in my soul ...
                1. +10
                  24 January 2022 09: 27
                  I have more hopes for the Gorgon - information about a small nuclear submarine slipped through
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          2. +5
            23 January 2022 12: 50
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            from RCC, which was Exoset,

            It sounds clumsy, but you can understand what it is about.
            1. +1
              23 January 2022 13: 15
              Quote: Dart2027
              but you can understand what it is about.

              It is forbidden. The novel made a mistake, and you repeated it, and nothing more. Below we have already chewed on the first use of anti-ship missiles.
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      2. -10
        23 January 2022 07: 45
        Quote: Snail N9
        As far as I know, the first warship sunk by anti-ship missiles was not the Sheffield, but the Israeli destroyer Eilat.

        Eilat was sunk by the Egyptians on October 21, 1978.

        On October 6, a naval battle took place between Israeli and Syrian ships.
        Syrians used Termit (range up to 50 km), Israelis Gabriel (range up to 25 km)
        the result of the battle is 3:0 in favor of Israel. (Israel had electronic warfare systems)

        the sinking of Eilat with the help of the Termit RCC occurred on October 21.
        1. +20
          23 January 2022 08: 41
          Sorry, not quite accurate.
          Eilat was sunk by the Egyptians on October 21, 1978.

          Eilat sunk 21 October 1967
          On October 6, a naval battle took place between Israeli and Syrian ships.
          Syrians used Termit (range up to 50 km), Israelis Gabriel (range up to 25 km)

          The battle of Latakia took place on October 6-7, 1973.
          1. 0
            24 January 2022 07: 42
            It's strange, do we all have different Wikipedia? Or are we just in a hurry to write?
          2. +2
            24 January 2022 07: 43
            Quote: Avior
            Eilat sunk 21 October 1967

            of course 1967, somehow 1978 escaped.
    2. +13
      23 January 2022 22: 44
      Quote: bandabas
      It's not just a waste of money. This is another smart cut. What's what, and it's perfectly able to do. And ends in the water.

      ======
      Of course, I understand everything ..... But the DUTY phrase "dough cut"Very annoying!
      No matter what happens, there will ALWAYS be an "excuse": "loot sawed"...
      And Under this paradigm - absolutely EVERYTHING can be written off ..... Well, HOW: VERY convenient !!! And the MOST IMPORTANT: it is immediately clear WHO is to blame ...
      PS And now you can "throw slippers" (from the sofa!).... hi
    3. +3
      24 January 2022 00: 33
      it’s better to let them cut a couple of lards on old boats and they will last another 10-15 years than to immediately ditch 40k for a new nuclear submarine, which will be just as good as the old ones - considering that this is not even a strategist.
      All these missile carriers are incomprehensible boats for incomprehensible tasks - it would be better if the Navy invested loot in aviation
  2. +30
    23 January 2022 06: 58

    One can argue, because in the conditions of our "puddles", the Black, Caspian and Baltic, a small rocket ship with "Caliber" is quite a good weapon. Where a nuclear submarine cannot be stuffed.
    You won't be able to push it. But Bekmanbetov managed to shove the nuclear submarine right into the Moscow River! belay In 2011, together with the Americans, he filmed the fiercest game - "Phantom. The Darkest Hour." Where in the Moscow River the nuclear submarine "feels" quite freely and evacuates the survivors straight to America. The most polite thing that comes to mind after viewing - "My friends, go to that wall, and kill yourself on it, pliz." Okay, I understand, off topic comment. This is me, let's say, to cheer up ....
  3. +8
    23 January 2022 07: 08
    The nuclear submarine Voronezh of this project is the protagonist of my favorite alternative, the Sea Wolf by Vlad Savin.
    There are already 21 books in the series. I look forward to continuing.
    1. +2
      23 January 2022 15: 54
      I sintered on the 17th book. I'm sick of the "female" line of the series with their bell skirts and pomposity about everything good.
      1. 0
        24 January 2022 03: 38
        More fierce nonsense, even from Korchevsky and Poselyagin, was not necessary to read. The capture of Scheer put an end to my reading. Yes
        1. 0
          24 January 2022 07: 45
          Yes, it was epic. I envied the skill and training of the "crew")))
  4. +19
    23 January 2022 07: 20
    But we have no more than 15 years to understand these processes by the country's leadership.

    Hey nice man! In 15 years, they (like us!) will (perhaps!) not be (many) in this world.
    You, Roman, ask all the questions and think that someone will answer them ... Who? Those Heroes of Labor who did not strike a finger either during the construction of the Crimean bridge, or during the laying of "SP-1" and "SP-2" ... If only they could not prevent risks during construction (did not bother to think through every line of the contract and edit the part that is written in small print) slightly exceeded the estimate ... Yes, they paid (Miller) fines that would be enough to build a destroyer ...
    It is a pity that we do not have Heroes in shipbuilding. Some unfortunate repairmen who drown, drop, burn and carry to the right.
    Only planned, phased construction (modernization), based on the use of existing (under construction) production facilities, incentives for workers and personal responsibility for the task assigned (if they cannot, they must refuse BEFORE) can fix something ... Although .. .These fifteen years will pass as quickly as those 30...
    30 years of hard capitalist labor...
    1. -8
      23 January 2022 12: 54
      Quote: yuriy55
      Those Heroes of Labor who did not strike a finger either during the construction of the Crimean bridge or during the laying of "SP-1" and "SP-2"

      Please tell me how many weapons were made personally by Stalin during the Second World War?
      1. +16
        23 January 2022 14: 31
        Quote: Dart2027
        Please tell me how many weapons were made personally by Stalin during the Second World War?

        Have you decided that the depth of your intellect struck me on the spot? Or did you find a sacred connection between this and the topic of the publication?
        During the Second World War, more than 200 people became Heroes of Socialist Labor. None of them was either a Soviet billionaire or the wife of a Soviet billionaire. The names of the Heroes have become common nouns in the characteristics of work.
        Stakhanov movement, Stakhanov labor - a mass movement of followers of the miner Alexei Stakhanov, innovators of socialist production in the USSR, workers, collective farmers, engineering and technical workers, for increasing labor productivity based on the development of new technology.
        ==========
        Are there any followers (movement of followers) of the Winner-Usman movement in Russia? Maybe you know the drummers of Rotenberg or Miller's work? I understand you perfectly:
        My father bequeathed to me:
        First, to please all people without exception;
        Boss, where you happen to live,
        To the boss with whom I will serve,
        His servant who cleans the dress
        To the janitor, the janitor, to avoid evil,
        Dog janitor, to be affectionate.
        1. -11
          23 January 2022 15: 02
          Quote: yuriy55
          During the Second World War, more than 200 people became Heroes of Socialist Labor. None of them

          Very pathetic, but still how much?
          1. +13
            23 January 2022 15: 07
            Quote: Dart2027
            Very pathetic, but still how much?

            Not at all. Stalin was not engaged in the production of weapons. It was enough that he was the Supreme Commander...
            You write to the point. Trolling is not welcome here.
            1. -8
              23 January 2022 16: 44
              Quote: yuriy55
              Not at all. Stalin was not engaged in the production of weapons. It was enough that he was the Supreme Commander...
              Then
              Quote: yuriy55
              Those Heroes of Labor who did not strike a finger either during the construction of the Crimean bridge or during the laying of "SP-1" and "SP-2"
              what were they supposed to do?
    2. +2
      23 January 2022 13: 24
      Tell us how the laying of SP-1 and SP-2 made life better? How did the construction of the pipe contribute to the defense of the country?
      1. -4
        23 January 2022 19: 00
        They contributed to filling the budget, as well as the NWF and gold reserves from the second funded infrastructure projects in the country in addition to what they spend from the budget.
        1. +4
          24 January 2022 18: 05
          They contributed to filling the budget, as well as the NWF and gold reserves from the second funded infrastructure projects in the country in addition to what they spend from the budget.

          Can you tell me what kind of "infrastructural" projects were financed from these funds? Privatization of most of Sberbank?
      2. -1
        24 January 2022 07: 57
        Probably not worth telling. Well, if you ask such questions, then it’s either too late to explain, or in principle it’s not necessary, and it’s safer.
        1. +5
          24 January 2022 18: 03
          Probably not worth telling. Well, if you ask such questions, then it’s either too late to explain, or in principle it’s not necessary, and it’s safer.

          Before writing this, it would be nice to study what the budget is filled with. And it is filled in the vast majority of our taxes. And what Gazprom and others like it pays there, it takes from there in the form of all kinds of subsidies so that the price of gasoline / gas does not grow, for the development of deposits, etc. So there is no need to talk here about the "heroes of labor" Miller, Sechin and other parasites with daily salaries, like the average Russian for 10 years ...
          1. -2
            24 January 2022 18: 16
            You are not waiting for an answer, I hope? It's just that with such a "polemical beginning" there is no particular desire to start. The topic is so deep in the argumentation (you will have to list positions, dozens of positions, conditional key points) that it will take a lot of time. And it will all be in vain, since your statement "it would be nice to study what the budget is filled from" immediately says that you just "know" and therefore attempts to translate into constructive polemics will turn out to be empty. Because Sechin's salary of 240 million a year is the decisive factor in ruining the country. (and another hundred and a half two "tops" in total somewhere "holding out" per year up to 5 percent of pension payments per month (!). That is, the reason is indicated specifically and we will not consider other reasons. What's the point of going deeper then? Agree?))
  5. -3
    23 January 2022 07: 34
    And what about Rogozin? And it feels like the article was originally in English
    1. +5
      24 January 2022 18: 10
      And what about Rogozin? And it feels like the article was originally in English

      See right at the root! And Skomorokhov is a foreign agent, on the salary of the State Department! What a difference, Russian patriots, with dual or triple citizenship, for the sake of which the "guarantor" suspended the operation of the article of the constitution on the absence of dual citizenship among officials!
    2. 0
      1 February 2022 16: 26
      Quote: Alex Zvolinski
      And what about Rogozin? And it feels like the article was originally in English

      Or maybe in Ukrainian? lol Everything is straight to the point. If you don’t know what to answer your opponent in a dispute, call him an agent of the State Department, an adherent of Navalny or a Ukrainian. Yes
  6. +16
    23 January 2022 07: 39
    The nuclear submarine "Bratsk" K-391 was taken for repairs for 20 years, but they never arrived ...
    1. -8
      23 January 2022 19: 02
      Something critically serious was found in her once they refused to repair and modernize.
  7. +21
    23 January 2022 08: 16
    And all that the Russian leadership in general and the Ministry of Defense in particular needs today is an understanding of the processes that will begin when the modernization of Soviet weapons systems becomes meaningless.

    Here, some are raising a fuss for:
    For 23 years - this is since 1997 - 851 billion dollars, or 63 trillion rubles, have been legally exported from Russia. What for? Why are there laws that allow you to take money out of a country that itself lives in poverty?

    When they say that 65% of our large property belongs to foreign investors, I also feel uneasy.
    https://newdaynews.ru/moscow/716411.html
  8. +11
    23 January 2022 09: 19
    "Charles de Gaulle" actually goes to exercises regularly. Last year he went to the Indian Ocean. This year, in early February, new Clemenceau-22 exercises will start
  9. +4
    23 January 2022 09: 29
    . Well, we also remember the first loss in the world from anti-ship missiles, which was the Exocet, the British destroyer Sheffield.


    Let me remind you. The rocket did not explode. Broke the side and got stuck in the destroyer. But these damages plus the fire were enough.
    1. +7
      23 January 2022 11: 42
      They have a fundamentally different approach to the issue of damage control and attitude to the ship. For them, a ship is only a tool, a weapon, iron that can be built again, and most importantly, a crew, the preparation and maintenance of which is more expensive. Therefore, in all fleets, whether military or merchant, if it is not possible to localize the danger by the crew in the shortest possible time or there is a possibility of loss of life, then the ship is definitely abandoned and measures are taken only to save the crew.
      1. +11
        23 January 2022 15: 58
        Well I do not know. I had a chance to serve in the Soviet VFM, and Soviet / Russian merchant ships, and on merchant ships of foreign companies and everywhere they follow the slogan: "The safest place for the crew is your own ship / ship. Let it be burning or damaged, but afloat. And the boat, the raft It's out of desperation." That is why it is supposed to fight for the survivability of the ship UNTIL THE LAST.
        1. +2
          23 January 2022 16: 45
          That's right, this is the definition of SOLAS, but if the ship itself (the example of Hood is forever in their memory) poses an immediate threat, then they don’t particularly bother with some kind of mythical struggle, especially if it is definitely useless. So on tankers and LNG, if there is no effect after the operation of the PPO systems, then the evacuation is definitely underway. The question of fighting the elements to the last sailor is never raised, the main requirements and training during checks and inspections on ships under a foreign flag in any port, this is the abandonment of the ship and safety, I know it personally, and the requirements of the "red book" are memorized in several languages . Of course, if you have 1 container of 10K on fire or a skipper on a tank of 200 m of a bulk carrier, a trash can on the bridge, no one will jump overboard screaming, but no one will climb a blazing and smoky superstructure without the need to save a person. The same is true with water, if the ship receives more water, it is pumped out, and so on. isolation is impossible in the Moscow Region, then what is the point of waiting for an overkill, I don’t even remember, but in the skipper’s room they had plasters and jacks with shields at all, in my opinion, they didn’t even conduct such training, there were fire emergency parties, but the rest didn’t.
  10. 0
    23 January 2022 09: 33
    Roman has an unusually sensible article for him. Only the current leadership of the country has done nothing for 20 years and in 15 years will do nothing for the defense of the fleet, and in 15 years our fleet will become much smaller and with less combat capability
    1. +7
      23 January 2022 09: 42
      And the conclusion is obvious, in the last paragraph. If only not like kokhlov
      In general, I would like the Russian fleet to become at least a semblance of the fleet of Japan, and not Ukraine.
      some kind of surreal even to weave Ukraine here (not enough tons of "news"?)
      there is no submarine at all!
    2. -12
      24 January 2022 00: 58
      and what's wrong with the fact that there will be less useless expensive toys? how much of this garbage was difficult to calculate in the USSR - how many billions of dough did the maintenance of all this garbage cost? Our fleet would never and never will be, no matter how much powerful. And to protect aviation, it is necessary to develop it as the same Americans do - because the main enemy of any ship is an aircraft with anti-ship missiles, which, unlike nuclear submarines, will be able to detect and destroy a ship at a great distance - and the boat is blind by default and without external target designation 0 .
      These loaves under water can be launched at least 100th sense only from this. One loaf of Ash type is 10k Su30SM
  11. +5
    23 January 2022 09: 59
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    By 2021, FOUR modernized submarines were to come to the Pacific Fleet.
    Not this way. Yu. Borisov in 2017 said the following, quote: “Now the Irkutsk boat is being modernized, in 2021 it will go to sea. We are now discussing plans for the modernization of three more submarines as part of the future state armament program for 2018-2025.”
    That is, they plan to modernize 4 submarines not by 2021, and not even by 2025. The implementation of the arms program may continue after 2025, as we are talking about the allocated money and contracts signed under the program, and not about the completion of construction.
    1. +15
      23 January 2022 10: 46
      Dmitry, if my memory serves me right, according to the original plans, the first 2 ships were supposed to be upgraded in 2013 and put into operation in the form of 949AM in 2017 and 2018, respectively. I think that
      Quote: Volder
      Y.Borisov in 2017

      already talked about the adjusted program
  12. +6
    23 January 2022 11: 06
    Yes, the P-700 "Granite" at one time was just a frightening weapon.

    Yes, they are now at least somewhere. Just a new, more effective weaponry.
  13. +8
    23 January 2022 11: 15
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    by the time of 2030, the boats (modernized or not) will still be decommissioned. This is normal, they will be around 40-45 years old on average.
    Considering how deep repairs and modernization the submarines will undergo, and given that some of them have not been operated for several years, it is quite obvious that they will not serve the standard 40 years (the pledged resource), but at least 5-8 years longer. For example, specifically Irkutsk, after returning to service, will be able to serve until 2040. Similarly, "Chelyabinsk", which also stood idle for a long time.
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    after 2030, the number of universal nuclear submarines in the Russian fleet will be reduced by three times.
    Four repaired and modernized Soviet-built 949A nuclear submarines will begin to be decommissioned no earlier than 2040 - they will serve about 50 years (give or take). But for those submarines that will remain without modernization, the life span will be limited to 40 years. Although it is possible that by the end of the 2020s they will decide to modernize them too.
    If we talk about the 2030s, then taking into account the repair / modernization of submarines of another project 971 (which is also underway now!), The Navy will include:
    949A "Antey" - 5-6 pcs.
    971 "Pike-B" - 6 pcs.
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    to replace the Soviet nuclear-powered ships in our plan, we have 6 (SIX) boats of project 885M. Instead of 22 boats, we are ready to build 6.

    Not correct count. The process of creating submarines 885M "Ash-M" was brought out for an 8-year period (from bookmarking to delivery to the fleet). 3 units have already been built, 6 units have been laid down and are under construction. That is, by 2028 we will have 9 modern submarines. It is clear that the series will not end there. Throughout the 2020s, new submarines will be laid down. And by 2040, we should expect a complete replacement of old boats with new "Ash".
    1. +6
      23 January 2022 15: 49
      Quote: Volder
      , the Navy will include:
      949A "Antey" - 5-6 pcs.
      971 "Pike-B" - 6 pcs.

      Dmitry, 6 pikes - it's even more or less real, I don't know if it will work or not, but ... maybe. But about 5-6 Anteev - it’s definitely unlikely, rather 2-3 have undergone modernization, the rest, if in service, then somewhere in the reserve
      1. 0
        23 January 2022 19: 10
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But about 5-6 Anteev - it’s definitely unlikely, rather 2-3 have undergone modernization, the rest, if in service, then somewhere in the reserve
        I have confidence that until the mid-2030s, 5 "Anteev" will survive for sure (modernized and not modernized).
        For example, in 2015, during the repair at K-186 Omsk, the nuclear reactor was “recharged” - 22 years after commissioning. That is, now the reactor will last another 22 years. Calculation: 1993+22+22=2037.
        In 2015, at K-266 Oryol, both reactors were recharged with fresh nuclear fuel during repairs. We consider: 1992 + 23 + 23 = 2038, where 1992 is the year of commissioning.
        1. +6
          23 January 2022 22: 11
          Quote: Volder
          I have confidence that until the mid-2030s, 5 "Anteev" will survive for sure (modernized and not modernized).

          I doubt. Irkutsk will survive for sure, Chelyabinsk will probably be modernized by 2030. Omsk, which was modernized in 2019, probably, too, but the Eagle, which was modernized in 2017 in 2030, is already 13 years old after modernization, despite the fact that the boat will be 37 years old. Perhaps a couple of years still pass until 2032, but this is such a thing - a ship with outdated equipment, and very old itself. Yes, and Omsk will already be the most pre-retirement age.
          My prediction is that Omsk and Orel will go through 15 years after the upgrades received, hardly more, respectively, they will retire in 2032-2034. The rest, except for Chelyabinsk and Irkutsk, will leave even earlier.
    2. +6
      24 January 2022 01: 44
      Why are there so many 2030s in 971? There aren't that many of them now.
      So far, "Samara" and "Leopard" are guaranteed, that's all.
      Maybe they will finish the "Chakra" for themselves and complete the construction of the "Irbis", but this is not at all a fact.

      Storyteller.
  14. +1
    23 January 2022 11: 24
    The main thing when extending the service life of any ships is the qualitative fault detection of the hull first of all and then the equipment. If the hull is in good condition and partial replacement of equipment is allowed, the life of the ship can be extended. But there are always limits. For submarines, these are restrictions on the depth of immersion, and for surface ships, on the navigation area.
    Repaired boats can be used as coastal defense ships, even with old missiles, by replacing the guidance system with a more advanced one.
    The whole problem is in financing the modernization and control over the use of funds.
    Although there is a Special Department (a representative of the FSB), which, in principle, should know everything, and which has a scheme for the movement of funds by the day, and lists of those who are allowed to repair strategic facilities.
    That is why I am always surprised by the delays in the construction of warships and strange fires in shipyards. The non-mental prices for ships are surprising. At least half the price goes into the pockets of corrupt officials. soldier
  15. +3
    23 January 2022 11: 30
    Here, it seems to me, the main problem is not the age of the ships, but the problem of the potential of ship repair and shipbuilding enterprises, engineering organizations and the fundamental scientific school. The Soviet backlog is ending, we are rapidly lagging behind in technology, primary education, vocational education, economic and production potential have been destroyed. Hence the unthinkable, exorbitant terms for the repair and construction of even a small displacement of ships, the violation of technologies and safety measures (which is confirmed by recent events), and the culture of production.
  16. +27
    23 January 2022 11: 46
    I would like to comment on the article as a person who knows the issue firsthand (I worked at USC for several years). Let's start from the very beginning. First and foremost. All nuclear submarines developed in the USSR, including nuclear submarines pr. 949A, 971, were designed for a service life of no more than 25 years. At the same time, each nuclear submarine, in addition to short-term repairs (SHG), had to undergo a long-term average repair in the middle of its service life (approximately 10 years after the start of service). Due to the poor condition with the repair of boats and their merciless operation in the USSR, 95% of nuclear submarines were decommissioned before the end of their service life (on average, boats served for about 20 years, only a few units served for more than 25 years). For more than 30 years, nuclear submarines have never served in the USSR, it was absurd, the equipment was not designed for this! The second is the main problem of nuclear submarines pr.949A - in their size and difficulty with repairs. These are the largest in terms of displacement (we don’t count sharks) and complex submarines in the world (white elephants), their repair is very, very difficult and extremely expensive. Granites (the main weapon) are almost indestructible and outdated 10-15 years ago. All nuclear submarines pr.949A, except for Omsk, urgently need an average repair with modernization (or at least VTG) and are conditionally combat-ready. In theory, everyone except Omsk should be written off by 2025, they are simply dangerous for their crews (that's why they don't go to autonomy). To date, only 2 ships are combat-ready (Omsk and Orel), now they are trying to modernize 2 ships 949A-Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk. In fact, by 2030 we will have 2 modernized boats 949 A (Irkutsk should be transferred to the fleet in 2023, and Chelyabinsk not earlier than 2028). The rest will be scrapped, most by 2025. Therefore, we do not have any 15 years in reserve, the Russian Navy is rapidly dwindling strength right now.
  17. +6
    23 January 2022 11: 51
    Romance again? Again, for topics in which you do not understand - climbed?
    All his literacy can be expressed by his own phrase: ".. The calculator is a terrible thing. Instead of 22 boats, we are ready to build 6 ...". Those. the author believes that further in the Russian Federation for 10 years nothing NEW will be built anymore?
    Tired of all this constant whining. Yes, - not everything in our country is 5 C +. Skomorokhov write at least once a positive article about improvements in Russia that really IS. New shipyards and factories are being built for the needs of the fleet, new engines are being invented and the production of old modernized ones is being restored. All shipyards of the Russian Federation are loaded by more than 90%. And you want 10 new modern destroyers to be included in each of the fleets tomorrow (although 3-5 years ago there was nowhere to build them, nothing (engines) and nothing). The country is gradually recovering, but you still feel bad.
    Or is everything bad in your life as an author, - that's why you don't see the positive around?
    1. -1
      23 January 2022 12: 57
      Quote: Sfurei
      And you want 10 new modern destroyers to be included in each of the fleets tomorrow (although 3-5 years ago there was nowhere to build them, nothing (engines) and nothing).

      Wrong, he will be dissatisfied even then.
    2. +6
      23 January 2022 22: 13
      Quote: Sfurei
      Instead of 22 boats, we are ready to build 6 ... ". That is, the author believes that in the next 10 years nothing NEW will be built in the Russian Federation?

      About bookmarks of nuclear submarines this year is not heard, which means that until 2030 there will be nothing new, except for the laid Ash trees.
      Quote: Sfurei
      Tired of all this constant whining. Yes, - not everything in our country is 5 C +.

      And what, do we have something for 5 s +? :) I find it hard to find 3 with a minus
      1. 0
        25 January 2022 12: 25
        the bookmarks were last year -2 Borea and the year before last -2 Ash, and in order to lay something new, you need to launch the one under construction, and it turns out that 2 units will be launched this year, so the bookmarks will either be closer to the end of the year, or at the beginning of the 23rd year, in reality, you should not wait for new contracts for Ash before the 24-26th year, since you still need to lay 2 Boreas in the 23rd year + launching, but then, since we, in fact, Boreas should already they will replace all strategists, quite high chances of switching to the construction of Ash trees, well, maybe 1 slipway will be given for promising apls
        1. 0
          25 January 2022 13: 58
          Quote: Barberry25
          bookmarks were last year -2 Borea and the year before last -2 Ash

          I would say, the year before last (2020), and this is taken into account - if we don’t move to the right again, there will be 9 ash trees and M ash trees by 2030. And that’s it.
          1. 0
            25 January 2022 14: 18
            and all this on the condition that the Moscow Region moves out like a cuckoo and does not order new boats, but I personally don’t see any reasons for this, in fact it will be clear in the 25th year, then the stocks will have to start to be freed and it will be clear by orders, and there either Boreas -K, either Ash, or something new
            1. +1
              25 January 2022 14: 34
              Quote: Barberry25
              and all this on the condition that the MO will move out with a cuckoo and will not order new boats, but I personally don’t see any reasons for this

              And what's with the cuckoo? We have an official construction period for the last 2 M ash trees - 8 years, laying in 2020, delivery to the fleet in 2028. So if there are no bookmarks this year, they won’t have time to build anything new until 2030 for sure. I am silent about the fact that they and the ships already laid down may not have time to build until 2030
              1. -2
                25 January 2022 14: 43
                I'm talking about something else - that Antei, taking into account the period of repairs in the Pike compartment, will serve until the end of the 30s and that during the 30s there will also be deliveries of new nuclear submarines to the fleet, i.e. there will be no situation "we will have 6 (actually 9) instead of 22", there will be a planned transition from Anteev and Pike to Ashes or modernized Boreas. Taking into account the pace of delivery, it will be possible to say that starting from the 30th year, the fleet will receive 1- 2 nuclear submarines instead of those being withdrawn from the Shchuk and Anteev. In general, you need to wait for the 25th year, then the stocks will be freed and the laying of the Alps should begin with delivery in the 30s .. that's what I'm talking about
                1. +2
                  25 January 2022 15: 06
                  Quote: Barberry25
                  I'm talking about something else - that Antei, taking into account the period of repairs in the coupe, Pike will serve until the end of the 30s

                  They won't be even close. We really will live until the end of the 20s 4 Antey - Irkutsk, Chelyabinsk, and recently upgraded Orel with Omsk. But Orel and Omsk are unlikely to be able to serve for more than 15 years after modernization, which means that it will be time for them to retire at the very beginning of the 30s, 2032-34. In general, by 2035 there will be 2 Antaeus left, it’s good if.
                  Quote: Barberry25
                  those. there will be no situation "we will have 6 (actually 9) instead of 22uh"

                  The novel is right here. Today, roughly, we have 2 boats of project 885, 1 - 885M, 7 boats of project 949A, 9 boats of project 971, 2 boats of project 945, 2 boats of project 945A, 2 boats of 671RTMK
                  And in total - 25 ships. Today
                  By 2030, there will be 9 ash trees (if you dream), 4 Antey, and about 6 Pike - I strongly doubt it, but let's say. Total - 19 ships. By 2035, of all the above, Chelyabinsk, 9 ash trees + what will be commissioned in 2031-35 will retain their combat value.
                  1. -1
                    25 January 2022 15: 11
                    only he doesn’t write or mention anything about “what will go into operation”, but I think that there will be orders, it’ll just turn out bash on bash - one was written off, the other was introduced, but so far I don’t know exactly what project will be-Ash-M, Borey-K or nuclear submarine based on the same Khabarovsk
                    1. +1
                      25 January 2022 17: 50
                      Quote: Barberry25
                      I think that there will be orders, it will just turn out bash on bash - one was written off, the other was introduced

                      Not in the next decade for sure. Until 2030, at least three Pike-B, two Pike RTMK, 4 boats 945/945A and three Antey, that is, 12 boats, will go to waste, and only 6 Ash trees will come to replace them.
                      1. -2
                        25 January 2022 18: 22
                        in theory they will go, but they may not go,
                      2. +1
                        25 January 2022 18: 31
                        Quote: Barberry25
                        in theory they will go, but they may not go,

                        More will do in practice. And if it doesn’t work, they will remain formally in the composition, but in an incompetent state
                      3. -2
                        25 January 2022 21: 54
                        wait and see
      2. -2
        25 January 2022 12: 29
        And you, apparently, are preparing a daily report on new laid-down ships and submarines? And in the process of ongoing modernization and mass production, enterprises begin to work better and faster with each ship or submarine. So there will still be boats and ships laid down.
        And on 5+, for example, the digitalization of services throughout Russia. Russia occupies a leading position in the world in this (in the top three or five).
        Example: the other day I signed up for a medical commission and passed it (including a narcologist and a psychiatrist) in 1 hour, and then signed up and got my license in 7 minutes at the MFC. And for paying through public services, I also received a 30% discount on public services. duty)) Registration of cars, apartments, registration of benefits, obtaining documents and visiting doctors - everything can already be done through the State Services. My wife signed up yesterday to receive a parcel at the Russian post office and skipped the line. And you still have 3 with a minus for everything (((Maybe you need to break away from the computer and need to look around?
        1. +2
          25 January 2022 14: 08
          Quote: Sfurei
          And you, apparently, are preparing a daily report on new laid-down ships and submarines?

          Certainly. And you too. All the bookmarks of first-rank ships are reported with great fanfare and more than once.
          Quote: Sfurei
          And in the process of ongoing modernization and mass production, enterprises begin to work better and faster with each ship or submarine.

          And were there many upgrades at Sevmash that could significantly help to do "better and faster"? According to our plan, Voronezh and Vladivostok, laid down in 2020, are expected to be handed over to the fleet in 2028. And our plans are not fully implemented.
          Quote: Sfurei
          And on 5+, for example, the digitalization of services throughout Russia. Russia occupies a leading position in the world in this (in the top three or five).

          In general, according to the text of the commentary, production was meant, not services.
          1. 0
            25 January 2022 14: 16
            With pomp, yes, but not for 2-5 years ahead.
            How many opportunities have there been before? In recent years (3-5 years), they have only begun to modernize shipyards and started with less loaded ones, but this does not mean that nothing will be done at Sevmash.
            But in general, the text said about Russia as a whole. And their services are also, as it were, not out of thin air, but incl. connected with the development of data centers and network infrastructure. Well, in any case, aren’t we building bridges and roads, new factories (including those for the production of agricultural equipment), processing enterprises, developing enterprises for the construction of engines for aircraft and ships, and again restoring aircraft manufacturing enterprises? Or do I live in another country? And the icebreaker is not ours today raised the tricolor?
            1. +3
              25 January 2022 14: 51
              Quote: Sfurei
              With pomp, yes, but not for 2-5 years ahead.

              yes, it doesn't matter. The ash tree is being built today according to the plan for 8 years, and in the yard - 2022. If there are no bookmarks right now, then even according to plans until 2030, one cannot count on them. Everything that will be laid down after 2022 will go to the beginning of the 30s
              Quote: Sfurei
              How many opportunities have there been before?

              A lot of.
              Quote: Sfurei
              But in general, the text said about Russia as a whole.

              In general, there are some achievements. Well, here are the same "Zircons", for example. Or here is the massive supply of "warriors" to the ground forces. Su-57 went into the series, albeit a small one.
              But only these achievements - against the backdrop of epic failures in almost every industry - are somehow lost.
              Quote: Sfurei
              And their services are also, as it were, not out of thin air, but incl. with the development of data centers and network infrastructure are associated

              All imported. Infrastructure.
              Quote: Sfurei
              Well, in any case, aren’t we building bridges and roads

              Well, we build up to 2 km of roads a year, which is about 7 times less than in the RSFSR in the 80s of the last century.
              Quote: Sfurei
              new factories

              It would be better for you not to know how they are built and what they produce, honestly :))))))
              But in reality, we are rapidly losing the ability to produce anything. Units that have been made since the 70s of the last century, their manufacturers today cannot reproduce so that they pass the quality control department.
              Quote: Sfurei
              again, are aircraft manufacturing enterprises being restored?

              And air carriers have practically no domestic passenger aircraft left.
              Quote: Sfurei
              Or do I live in another country?

              Apparently yes. Maybe you should
              Quote: Sfurei
              need to break away from the computer and need to look around?

              hi
    3. +6
      24 January 2022 01: 45
      He more or less wrote the truth, you just want to hide in the house and not see her.
      1. 0
        25 January 2022 12: 29
        well, he was wrong at least in a few moments: 1) Anteev’s service life will end by the end of the 30s, 2) he “lost” 3 more Ash trees, which are already in service, 3) he believes that new Ash trees will not be built and that for the 30s the fleet will not receive them for years, although even taking into account the debugging of the Yasen and Borey projects, the fleet received 10 boats in 7 years, so we can realistically expect deliveries of another 10-12 nuclear submarines in the 30s, provided that the fleet does not play "we need a new child prodigy" and will order a well-functioning Ash.
      2. -1
        25 January 2022 12: 45
        That's just the point that more is less than more. The result of the whole article is everything is bad and where to run?
        What a message from the author: "..In general, I would like the Russian fleet to become at least a semblance of the fleet of Japan, and not Ukraine. But we have no more than 15 years to understand these processes by the country's leadership ..."
        Those. some fools sit at the top and build shipyards, ships, submarines and aircraft. And on the sofas there are only smart people who understand this better? Isn't it strange?
        At the same time, as I wrote earlier, all shipyards are filled to capacity with orders, money is allocated, modernization is carried out. And Roman wants us to start building new nuclear submarines from the air and in the air.
        If Roman wrote his vision of USC modernization or voiced his proposal for the construction and distribution of nuclear submarines and diesel-electric submarines in the fleets, this would be material that more or less illuminates the problem, but it’s just crocodile tears, in the manner of Roman. ((
        1. +8
          25 January 2022 14: 30
          Quote: Sfurei
          Those. some fools sit at the top and build shipyards, ships, submarines and aircraft. And on the sofas there are only smart people who understand this better? Isn't it strange?

          Weird. But it is so. For example, it will never be clear to me how one can start a global fleet building program, but at the same time count on the fact that engines for it will be purchased abroad. How can I order mine hazard control equipment for the latest minesweepers of the Alexandrite project, which physically do not fit this minesweeper in size. How can you ignore the rich experience of the USSR in creating BMZ ships and try to build a golden prodigy from corvette 20380. How can you have 2 training centers for naval pilots (in Yeysk and Crimea) and not a single aircraft carrier on the go. How is it possible to transfer to the fleet as many as 10 multifunctional fighters for 2011 fleets in 2020 years of SAP 46-4. How can the fleet be deprived of its only real strike force - the MPA. How can you completely overwhelm the introduction of surface and underwater lighting systems (EGSONPO, patrol aircraft, AWACS). How can you build mass-produced ships that are completely unnecessary to the fleet (22160). How can you still fly the Ka-27, born in 1981. How can you kill anti-submarine aircraft (Il-38 "Novella" - yesterday, but even those are not enough even for one fleet) How can you experience a shortage in the most important issues (the same minesweepers, PLO aircraft) but at the same time lay out huge amounts of money on insane " Poseidons" and their carriers. How can...
          okay, I signed something.
          Quote: Sfurei
          At the same time, as I wrote earlier, all shipyards are filled to capacity with orders, money is allocated, modernization is carried out.

          And - the landslide reduction in the strength of all fleets continues.
          Quote: Sfurei
          And Roman wants us to start building new nuclear submarines from the air and in the air.

          Alexander, under the USSR, we built "Pike-B" in a year, Antey - in 3 years. USA own Virginia block 4 - 3 years. And today we have 8 years for Ash - just some kind of happiness. Maybe it's time to face the truth and understand that everything is a bit not good with our "competence centers"?
          1. -2
            25 January 2022 14: 54
            Andrei, well, this is what you need to write about, and not just state the fact that everything is bad, as Roman usually does .. Well, again, you and I do not see the whole picture of what and how is happening up there.
            And - the landslide reduction in the strength of all fleets continues.
            So what to do? Don't build at all? Do not look for replacement engines? The fleet is generally one of the most costly industries in all countries. Therefore, they tried to reduce the cost or speed up production by buying mistrals and foreign engines, re-restoring production, building from what has already been designed now.
            under the USSR, we built "Pike-B" in a year, Antey - in 3 years. USA own Virginia block 4 - 3 years.

            Maybe it was in the USSR, but it was a different country that did not undergo ruin and decline, as we did in the 90s. We are restoring everything almost from scratch, and everyone wants everything to go and fly once and for all.
            And in Virginia - they are built for 5-7 years - you just need to look not from the bookmark. They have it in 2-3 years after the start of work. And again, they have no problems with financing and with shipyards, materials and technologies. So take small steps towards a brighter future.))
            1. +3
              25 January 2022 15: 16
              Quote: Sfurei
              Maybe it was in the USSR, but it was a different country that did not undergo ruin and decline, as we did in the 90s.

              I'm sorry, but the 90s ended 22 years ago
              Quote: Sfurei
              We are restoring everything almost from scratch, and everyone wants everything to go and fly once and for all.

              This could console oneself in 2005, but not in 2022. Moreover, they restore - a few, but continue to degrade - tens and hundreds.
              What is there to rejoice? Academy "Zhugarin"? Unification of MiG and Su?
              Quote: Sfurei
              Therefore, they tried to reduce the cost or speed up production by buying mistrals and foreign engines

              Alexander:)))) When it was secured, it turned out that we could start building engines for frigates 22350, which we ordered to Ukraine, in a few years.
              And who prevented it before to think? You are talking about digitalization, but this is a joke for chickens (in comparison, of course, I am only happy for the figure). Here is marine engine building, this is the highest level of technology, a lot of highly qualified jobs ... With guaranteed sales, that is, government orders! Develop - I do not want! They planned to build 35 corvettes and 14 frigates initially.
              Nooo, we’d better order Ukraine and the Germans - what to feed our producer ...
              Quote: Sfurei
              And in Virginia - they are built for 5-7 years - you just need to look not from the bookmark.

              If you look from the date of the order - this is also wrong, they start building later
              1. 0
                25 January 2022 18: 32
                I'm sorry, but the 90s ended 22 years ago
                And when did you pay off your debts to the IMF? In 2004 -2005? And when did it become calmer on our borders in Chechnya and Dagestan? Then the gradual recovery began.
                And since 2008 and then since 2014. they started to apply tough sanctions on us (although they didn’t stop before that) and again they began to put spokes in the wheels in everything (after 10 years in the army since 2005, I’m just supplying equipment and electronics for industry and the military-industrial complex). How many restrictions on supplies to space and military equipment - you just have to see it. In 2014, all (even paid contracts) of the space class just stopped. Then they returned the money to customers and all that. And also in 2008-2009. one economy crisis, and then in 2012-2013 the second was also hit across the Russian Federation.
                This could console oneself in 2005, but not in 2022.
                In 2005, 2-3 fighters went to the troops and everyone whined, which was not enough. Later there were years already handed over 50 pieces. a year and still screamed a little. It's like in a big family: someone asks for money for sweets, someone for education, someone for a military uniform, and someone for a wheelchair, but there is not enough money for everything, so you have to spin.
                And who prevented it before to think?
                This is the whole point: it is impossible to grab and build everything at once, there simply aren’t enough resources in the country for everything. And you also need to always be prepared that sanctions will be imposed on something else. And it is better to ensure the life of the population than in Venezuela.
                That's why we tried to save
                Nooo, we’d better order Ukraine and the Germans - what to feed our producer ...
                Those. they justifiably considered that it was better to buy engines now and build ships now (again, so as not to lose at least some specialists in the shipyards). How to build shipyards and factories and develop engines and start building ships only in 10-15 years? And the coup in Ukraine was somehow not in the plans of our government. request
                If you look from the date of the order - this is also wrong, they start building later
                But the date of laying in the USA is not a procedure at the beginning of construction, but purely official with the assignment of a name after 1-3 years (I studied this issue somehow, there is little information about this) after the real start of work. hi
                1. 0
                  25 January 2022 19: 24
                  Quote: Sfurei
                  And when did you pay off your debts to the IMF? In 2004 -2005? And when did it become calmer on our borders in Chechnya and Dagestan?

                  All this was destroyed long before the start of the SAP 2011-2020. The debt was dropped in 2006, Chechnya - in 2009
                  Quote: Sfurei
                  Then the gradual recovery began.
                  And since 2008 and then since 2014. we already have tough sanctions

                  In 2008, there were no sanctions yet, but there was a US real estate crisis that strangely hit the Russian Federation. The consequences of the war on 08.08.08 were positive for the economy - they pushed back our accession to the WTO
                  Quote: Sfurei
                  In 2005, 2-3 fighters went to the troops and everyone whined, which was not enough. Later there were years already handed over 50 pieces. a year and still screamed a little.

                  And they stayed at this level from 2014 to 2016 (except for the Yak-130) - then they again went to 20 aircraft a year.
                  Quote: Sfurei
                  This is the whole point: it is impossible to grab and build everything at once, there simply aren’t enough resources in the country for everything.

                  Yes, no one there did not grab anything and did not build. The only plus is that they began to allocate money for rearmament. Everything else is minus.
                  The procedure for creating new weapons was broken in the bud. Instead of the "tasks" method, when the concept of a promising battle was being formed, from it - the necessary types of weapons and the necessary performance characteristics for weapons, from it - NIIR and R&D, etc. Serdyukovism came. This ... figure clearly confused the armed forces with an expensive boutique and turned everything upside down - like, show me the development, and I'll think about whether to buy it or not. And the institutions that were engaged in the development of military art - for optimization, fortunately, real estate is released, but you can push it at the most reasonable price ...
                  Quote: Sfurei
                  And it is better to ensure the life of the population than in Venezuela

                  You are terribly far from the people :)))))) "Care" was such that ... They tried to force me to bankrupt the city-forming enterprise in 2009. Do you know why? Because I could not pay taxes and there were delays in wages. Do you know why? Because the state refused to pay for the work performed (there is a crisis! They postponed payment for a year, and this is almost a third of the proceeds).
                  Bankruptcy was demanded at a level ... let's say, high. I explain to them that we will get out anyway, that delays are not terrible, people are not slaves, they will find better work - they will leave. And if you go bankrupt, thousands and thousands of families will find themselves without income. Do you know what the answer was?
                  "So what ... but everything will be according to the law"
                  Caring, yes.
                  Quote: Sfurei
                  Those. they justifiably considered that it was better to buy engines now and build ships now (again, so as not to lose at least some specialists in the shipyards). How to build shipyards and factories and develop engines and start building ships only in 10-15 years?

                  I envy you, chesslovo :))))
                  Nobody thought there. If they did, they would give Saturn an indication and a little money to master the engines (in fact, they did it in 6 years, counting from the beginning of the sanctions to the first ship equipped with domestic engines) - they would have worked. While Saturn is sorting out - they would buy Ukrainian ones, as they figure it out - they would gradually switch to their own.
                  NO ONE cared about it. Serdyukov was busy - he had fun with Italian wheeled tanks.
                  Quote: Sfurei
                  And the coup in Ukraine was somehow not in the plans of our government.

                  It's not about the revolution. And the fact that the top leadership of the country, in all seriousness, considered it unnecessary to develop their own industry - why, if necessary, we will buy branded abroad. Vladimir Vladimirovich directly pushed us into the WTO, although the economy was not even close to being ready for this. All normal countries first raised the level of industry to a competitive level, and then climbed into the WTO. Putin believed that the WTO was a means to make industry competitive. Kindergarten, group "herringbone" - we only suffered direct losses in the first 5 years at the level of 800 billion rubles.
                  The sanctions of 2014 were not a burden, but a blessing, as we began to be ignored in the WTO, and we moved back. If Putin had brought the matter to an end, today we would have nothing left of agriculture and most of the industry at all
                  Quote: Sfurei
                  But the date of laying in the USA is not a procedure at the beginning of construction, but purely official with the assignment of a name in 1-3 years

                  Okay, let's assume that the example is unsuccessful.
                  1. 0
                    25 January 2022 21: 22
                    long before the start of SAP 2011-2020
                    So what? in 2011, the military-industrial complex had just started production of the required products from scratch, and many products were in their infancy. Since 2006, I have been leading many projects in space, Atomka and the military commissar. First of all, there was air defense and electronic warfare, improvement of control and communication systems, and modernization of weapons. There were few new systems in principle.
                    There were no sanctions in 2008
                    There were, there were, just not very obvious yet. Not to mention the outflow of capital. I remember it was here that the first restrictions on the supply of advanced electronics and increased control over space and military projects began. They encrypted as best they could, but there was nothing to replace it with!
                    Yes, no one there did not grab anything and did not build.
                    Basically, they did not build, but modernized in 2011-2016. I drove around military enterprises and even visited closed cities. What I saw at enterprises in 2007 (I saw a support and procurement bureau with 3 computers for 25-30 people) and, for example, already in 2014. (I saw the same machines as I saw at enterprises in Germany) at many enterprises it was earth and sky. Orders were sent for the SAP and immediately at the plants, if possible, they began modernization.
                    And Serdyukov, who destroyed and dispersed, did not work on his own, but he had a specific goal: to remove unnecessary enterprises and parts from the balance sheet, for which more money was spent on maintenance than on the construction of new ones. All these framed units and armies standing in the field with 2-5 ensigns and 20 soldiers. Or do you think such a troubadour was simply endured out of hopelessness? And then Shoigu came and a year later our aircraft showed themselves in all their glory? Have you risen from the ashes in a year? Although he sometimes went too far in his work, my school was barely defended.
                    NO ONE cared about it.
                    Not true, just at the beginning they didn’t know what to grab onto and where to run. You say you would give yes and that's it. What did they give? At the beginning, the money went only for the supply of specific equipment and weapons and military equipment. Of these, enterprises have already taken funds for R&D and modernization of production. It was already after 2014-2015 that mass targeted allocation of funds for development of new systems and weapons and military equipment. A year and a half ago, I crossed paths with a friend in Moscow and came to defend a competition for R&D on space systems. communications for 1,6 billion rubles. Before, there was no such money.
                    seriously considered it unnecessary to develop their own industry
                    And who, then, is building ships, submarines and aircraft now. Or, with all the unwillingness to develop their own industry, they could not ruin the remaining enterprises in 22 years? Somehow you underestimate the bureaucrats. Would say:
                    "So what ... but everything will be according to the law"
                    and collapsed .. And so what kind of phoenixes do we have at every plant, they still won’t fall apart? Almost all large factories with whom I started working in 2006 are still working and developing. Yes, some sites were taken out of Moscow or put into different concerns, but they continue to work and order products and produce their own. request
                    According to the WTO, I agree that it was nefig to meddle in there.
                    The 2014 sanctions were not a burden
                    I would say that they helped us in defiance of all economic laws, not without the participation of the government. I have many well-known enterprises that really suffered from these sanctions: and I had to rebuild the architecture and load of satellites and rethink the use of electronics in weapons and military equipment and simply stop part of the development. I believe that for some developments we were slowed down for 2-4 years (this is just what I participated in).
                    But this made it possible to rethink the further development of the country's leadership: they began to allocate more money for the development of their systems and components, date their production (including their agricultural equipment) and even import substitution, no matter how clumsily it went, but gradually gives its effect (I'm not talking about Ros NANO negative )
                    1. +2
                      26 January 2022 09: 11
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      So what? in 2011, the military-industrial complex had just started production of the required products from scratch, and many products were in their infancy.

                      Were. Just what do you want to say with this? :) Firstly, there is only one merit of the state in that it got off the ground - they began to give money. Secondly, as I said, very often the money goes to the wrong things. And thirdly, all issues cannot be solved with money, many strategically important orders have been violated (stages of creating weapons and military equipment)
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      There were, there were, just not very obvious yet.

                      I would say - very implicit, and obviously not such that could somehow significantly damage the economy and industry as a whole.
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      Basically, they did not build, but modernized in 2011-2016.

                      Alexander, let's not mix 2 things together.
                      What was done? The enterprises were given money and the state defense order, each enterprise began to revive/increase its capacities based on its own understanding of how to implement the state defense order.
                      What SHOULD have been done? To formulate the State Defense Order, on its basis to develop an economic policy for its implementation, with an emphasis on the maximum localization of military production in the Russian Federation. Communicate to enterprises the provisions of this policy "as far as it concerns" and help to implement it.
                      That is, there was no state approach in principle, but there was hope for the invisible hand of the market (this is convenient - you don’t need to do anything yourself, the market will sort everything out).
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      Not to mention the outflow of capital.

                      Yes, there was no sanctioned capital outflow there. By and large, the import capital in the Russian Federation was divided into 4 parts:
                      1) Speculative - while the ruble was strengthening against the dollar, it was an interesting investment, as the first crisis began, they began to get rid of it. This is an outflow of capital, but the outflow did not affect anything, since this capital did not participate in the real economy
                      2) Capital in the oil and gas complex - it did not flow anywhere
                      3) Commercial debt is foreign currency loans (including the sale of shares, bonds, etc.). The money left from there, but the question is that this is not a consequence of sanctions, but the results of the actions of our wise government, which "discovered" a deficit-free federal budget for itself - when 40% of your income goes in foreign currency (albeit exchanged for rubles) and obligations - ruble, it is enough to collapse the ruble exchange rate a little, and voila - income in dollars will remain the same, in rubles - will increase, and obligations in rubles - will remain the same.
                      And it is much easier to collapse the ruble than to manage the country's economy. Well...
                      4) Bank foreign currency loans taken from foreigners. here, one more was added to the reasons of paragraph 3. Since no one wants to manage the country's economy, and inflation was a real concern, as it could lead to riots, it was restrained by artificially cutting the amount of money in circulation. We have half the money supply per ruble of marketable output than in Germany, for example. And since this led to the formation of an eternal liquidity crisis in the economy, the "clever" Kudrin threw a cry - if there is no money at home, borrow abroad. So ... we got busy. And what kind of import investor will invest dollars in ruble-denominated projects if at any moment our Central Bank collapses the exchange rate, and your ruble-denominated assets fall in price by 15-30%? But if our government did not play tablets, but still managed the economy and we had enough of our own working capital in the economy, then the outflow of foreign currency loans would not become a problem for us.
                      So the question is not about sanctions, but about the fact that our economic model turned out to be miserable and completely unviable
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      Or do you think such a troubadour was simply endured out of hopelessness? And then Shoigu came and a year later our aircraft showed themselves in all their glory? Have you risen from the ashes in a year?

                      Alexey, we had very capable aircraft before Serdyukov. Their fierce problem was chronic underfunding. As soon as the money went, it became possible to properly train fighters and hold other events, in order to achieve "differences in combat and political" - the Armed Forces revived. And what does Serdyukov have to do with it? Was he getting money out of his own pocket? But he broke so much that much can not be restored. And Shoigu... Do you think this is a super-talented leader? Not at all. Shoigu stands out from other high-level leaders only because, having abundant funding, he knows how not to break what was done before him, and not to interfere with the positive that is being done besides him. Although there is a consequence - he also does not know how to prevent the negative.
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      Not true, just at the beginning they didn’t know what to grab onto and where to run. You say you would give yes and that's it. What did they give? At the beginning, the money went only for the supply of specific equipment and weapons and military equipment.

                      That's it. And this is a consequence of complete mediocrity and misunderstanding of the principles of the work of the military-industrial complex and the absence of an economic policy in the field of state defense orders. And by no means a lack of money that could (and should have) been redistributed so that there would be less for bad Mistrals, and more for R&D.
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      It was already after 2014-2015 that mass targeted allocation of funds for the development of new systems and weapons and military equipment began.

                      Yes, it took Shoigu as much as 2 years to realize the usefulness of R&D. Genius leader, what can I say ...
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      And who, then, is building ships, submarines and aircraft now. Or, with all the unwillingness to develop their own industry, they could not ruin the remaining enterprises in 22 years?

                      No one deliberately brought them down, they simply waved their hand at them. Survive - good, do not survive - and Allah be with them
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      And who, then, is building ships, submarines and aircraft now.

                      They build ... a teaspoon per hour.
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      And so what kind of phoenixes do we have at each plant, they still won’t fall apart?

                      Still falling apart. It's just that it's not always visible from the outside.
                      I won’t talk about general statistics (since 2018, we have closed twice as many enterprises as they open) - everything is there, from the shawarma giant’s factory, inclusive. I'll say it easier.
                      So you say - new machines are visible everywhere. If you only knew how they work, these machines ... the economy often sags, because a modern worker does not know how to operate these machines normally, this causes constant breakdowns, failure of an extremely expensive tool, and so on. And the funny thing is that at many factories I saw a situation where production, having CNC machines, cannot ensure the accuracy of processing that workers of the old school did on universal machines ... - No.
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      I would say that they helped us in defiance of all economic laws, not without the participation of the government.

                      Alexander, they just helped us IN FULL ACCORDANCE with economic laws :)) The essence of the WTO is free competition, the one who has the best opportunities will win in it. Yes, the mere availability of credit resources and their cost kills fair competition with any European production in the bud. You yourself write that the WTO was a mistake. And the sanctions of 2014 did the main thing - they moved the WTO far away. You write
                      Quote: Sfurei
                      I have many well-known enterprises that really suffered from these sanctions: and I had to rebuild the architecture and load of satellites and rethink the use of electronics in weapons and military equipment and simply stop part of the development.

                      Everything is so, but this is a small price to pay for, for example, saving agriculture from the destruction.
                      1. 0
                        26 January 2022 09: 51
                        Andrey, it was very nice to talk, but my work gets up because of our correspondence. laughing
                        In general terms, my opinion is that they are trying to establish the military-industrial complex and other spheres of life at the top, and no one deliberately seeks to simply destroy the country. BUT, many skills (including production ones) and skills were lost during the collapse of the USSR and Russia, and the necessary specialists of the required national scale were also absent, incl. in economics and production. Therefore, there were throwings: they ran to pick up one thing, then another. If you managed the enterprise, then you should know that part of the powers must be delegated and how the enterprise will continue to work in this direction depends on your appointee, and he can see and evaluate one by one, and report to you according to the second, and do according to the third principle. And now, extrapolating this to the size of the country and the number of destinations, and it turns out that it is very, very difficult to control everything with two hands, without a team of professionals.
                        Good luck to you! hi
                      2. +2
                        26 January 2022 16: 23
                        Thanks to you and Andrey for your work and positions. Not often there are meaningful dialogues here ...
    4. +3
      24 January 2022 12: 29
      invent new engines

      And you can find out what new engine was invented?
      1. -1
        25 January 2022 12: 35
        The M90FR gas turbine engine of the M55R combined diesel-gas turbine power plant for the Project 22350 frigate was developed and manufactured by the Rybinsk NPO Saturn.
        1. +4
          25 January 2022 14: 12
          Gas turbine engine M90FR

          It was developed by Ukrainians in shaggy years. As well as the M55R. "Zorya-Mashproekt".
          That their over 20 years learned how to assemble from domestic parts, of course, commendable, no doubt.
          One small detail.
          They are NOT FROM ZERO! And yes, the quality is the same.
          Let me remind you that on Project 22350 there are 10D49 even more shaggy Soviet years.
          Let's get some really "from scratch", and not this sticky.
          1. -2
            25 January 2022 14: 25
            You probably don’t use a shovel when cleaning snow, it was also invented in a shaggy year. Therefore, you have a modern gadget for evaporating snow with a mobile phone? So what? The product must be and perform its functions.
            What was once produced and not with us, and then we started doing it, then this is in fact a new product, incl. modernized to the current realities (ask the Chinese how they can’t copy our engines in any way - according to you, this is nothing). The fact that the engine may not be optimal in terms of performance is the same as normal. Even those who ride a Maserati can give out their fu according to some parameters. So the engines began to be made and finished to the required characteristics.
            Can you also tell me what you yourself invented for the good of the motherland, in order to find fault with those who work in this direction (I’m not talking about myself, of course, although I’m engaged in deliveries under the state defense order at work)?
            1. +4
              25 January 2022 14: 49
              You probably don’t use a shovel when cleaning snow, it was also invented in a shaggy year. Therefore, you have a modern gadget for evaporating snow with a mobile phone?

              What about the case? Name at least ONE engine developed in the Russian Federation FROM SCRATCH

              The fact that the engine may not be optimal in terms of performance is the same as normal.

              Seriously?
              ... this is in fact a new product,

              OK! I am re-patenting the elephant. The elephant born in the Russian Federation is a new product. unparalleled in the world.))

              Maybe you can also tell me what you yourself invented a new one for the good of the motherland,

              a) the word Motherland is written with a capital letter.
              b) opinions like "if you don't like this music write better"
              not the best way to have an objective dialogue.
              Invent a rocket then then be smart about engines that you don't even know anything about. Neither WHO developed them, nor WHEN.
              1. 0
                25 January 2022 18: 41
                Name at least ONE engine developed in the Russian Federation FROM ZERO

                I will answer with your own phrase: "Name at least ONE engine developed somewhere FROM ZERO?" Only Henry Ford? All complex systems: trains, engines, ships, planes, etc. These are modifications of previously invented models. No one comes up with complex systems from ZERO, ask the Chinese about this, who copied the systems and only then, having worked with them, modernized them! So the question is: having a ship to which a similar engine fits, is it necessary to invent an engine from ZERO? Or should I take the old one and upgrade it? I think the answer is obvious request
                unparalleled in the world.))
                Nobody claimed this request
                1. +3
                  25 January 2022 19: 06
                  Or you need to take the old one and upgrade it

                  First, it is impossible to upgrade to infinity.
                  If you want me to give you an example, please do so.
                  Su-27. "From scratch". There has never been such a technology. Even the management principles there are completely innovative.
                  Nuclear submarine pr. 705 - ABSOLUTELY from scratch. Designers were even forbidden to touch the drawings of other boats.
                  pr. 685, pr. 661 ... Everything from scratch and really The first in the world.
                  Even your notorious afterburner engine, which is from frigates "alya Gorshkov", after all, there are sustainer engines D49 of the 1960 model, originally from the USSR.
                  But the RF does not know how to make a diesel engine. And he will never learn without such an industrial branch, for example, as machine tool building. Bad Chinese copies are the ceiling of domestic production. An economical move of 14 knots and a maximum short-term of 25 knots will not conquer the Ocean, alas.
                  So you can revel in the "great victories of the Russian Federation" as much as you like, but you won't get far on the old Soviet reserve.
                  Secondly, the very principle of "endless modernization" has never been the basis for the evolution of technology. Why was it necessary to build Soyuz spaceships, if you can endlessly upgrade the Vostok spacecraft?))
                  1. 0
                    26 January 2022 10: 04
                    "From scratch"
                    Seriously? Have the designers not seen the planes before? They made bicycles and then transferred to the SU-27 design bureau ?? And none of the old developments were used in the planes, not a single system? Don't make me laugh.. Everything new is ALWAYS based on old developments and new principles of product functioning are invented on the basis of the old. The exceptions are only rare moments when an NTR occurs (usually once every 50-100 years), but the SU-27 did not revolutionize technology. In maneuverability and other enhanced functions - yes, but in technology no request Or I don’t know something and he can fly to the moon and fly backwards? Or does he use the principle of flight on the fluctuations of protons, and not on the thrust of the engines?
                    The same can be said about all your examples. Everything new is an improvement on the old!
                    1. +2
                      26 January 2022 22: 49
                      Have the designers not seen the planes before?

                      The same can be said about all your examples. Everything new is an improvement on the old!

                      You are an extremely distant person. Not having elementary knowledge of the material base. Substantive communication with you does not make the slightest sense.
                      I'm very sorry.
                      1. -1
                        27 January 2022 09: 41
                        It was very pleasant to talk with a distant person (from science), who probably personally participated in the technical development of the aviation and shipbuilding industries of the USSR and Russia. And so he brought
                        Subject
                        examples of developments "from ZERO" and meticulously substantiated his point of view.
                        I'm very sorry
                        that your arguments turned out to be nothing! request
  18. +5
    23 January 2022 11: 57
    for good, all boats older than 30 years, like ships, must be written off and disposed of because they are physically obsolete .... Apparently, the fact that there is a lot of money does not mean that they will be used correctly .... it is necessary to build new and not modernize the old
  19. +10
    23 January 2022 12: 01
    “Four repaired and modernized Soviet-built 949A nuclear submarines will begin to be decommissioned no earlier than 2040 - they will serve for about 50 years (give or take). But those submarines that remain without modernization will have a lifespan of 40 years. Although it is possible that by By the end of the 2020s, they will decide to modernize them as well."
    Where did you get such data from? Have you ever been to Sevmash? Or an asterisk? Have you worked in the shipbuilding industry or served in the Navy of the Russian Federation or the USSR? In the USSR, boats were designed for 25 years of service, and the bulk of the nuclear submarines went on pins and needles after 17-20 years of service !!! And you write about 40-50 years ......... It is simply impossible physically. As an option, of course, Omsk and Orel pr. 949 And they can also stand at the pier for 10-15 years, but there will be zero sense from this.
    1. +5
      23 January 2022 13: 15
      Do not pay attention, the truth is needed by units. Most prefer to live in a world of illusions and their own Wishlist. The psyche is weak.
  20. +5
    23 January 2022 12: 01
    yuriy55 (Sibiryak), dear, They were a hero in shipbuilding, but they left for another world, perhaps also because they could not look at what shipbuilding was turned into. David Guseinovich Pashaev came to the NSR in 1963, became the director of Sevmash in 1988, was the first Hero of Russia from civilians, received the title in 1995. Alexei Mikhailovich Ivanov came to Sevmash in 1974, was a fitter, then a foreman, received the title of Hero of Labor of the Russian Federation in 2017 ...
    As for the rest, you are 202% right ... True, I would add the responsibility of all counterparties. Purchases in shipbuilding and ship repair according to Federal Law No. 223 and a little bit according to Federal Law No. 44 are one of the reasons that the Russian Federation is almost in "Europe" ... Everything is fine with planning. In what year did the nuclear submarine "Bratsk" stop sailing, as they wrote in the comments, because of the batteries? I remember clearly that Zvezdochka along the Northern Sea Route was planned to be pulled in 2014 along with Samara on the Transshelf. When they decided not to repair it, it’s not clear, it’s all rotting poor ... "personal responsibility for the task assigned" - here the plug is full How the Ministry of Accounts of the Russian Federation, beloved by all of us, allocated money and how ship repairmen mastered it, we seem to not know never. The system of making money in the FSB (thanks to the real Colonel Cherkalin, and earlier the Three Whales case), in the prosecutor's office (thanks to the case of protecting the casino by the Moscow Region prosecutors) has worked, it works and will continue to work. Yes, and loyal EdRoss are at the helm of USC and in the management of USC enterprises, how to replace them? SAM believes them. An example - yes, the former governor of the Arkhangelsk region Igor Anatolyevich Orlov - the general director of Severnaya Verf for a year and a half (we built and built the corvette, but it burned down ...), the chick of the Presidential Personnel Reserve ...
  21. +8
    23 January 2022 12: 15
    missed the opportunity to upgrade the aurora during repairs with the installation of a caliber launcher
  22. -12
    23 January 2022 12: 22
    10 years is a long time and a lot can happen in that time. Secondly, now for the US, enemy number 1 is China. Russia can take full advantage of the situation when "two are fighting" and the third one is collecting goodies.
    1. +1
      24 January 2022 01: 46
      Like the USSR in 1941, right?
      1. -4
        24 January 2022 13: 19
        41 - th good lesson that should not be forgotten. Yes, and not everything is so simple with the 41st, there are a lot of misunderstandings, and we are unlikely to find out the truth.
  23. -2
    23 January 2022 13: 19
    Correct article respect to the author.
  24. +8
    23 January 2022 13: 53
    I like this idea from Stealth Machines: “I don’t know .... I’ve been reading for a long time, I’m worried about the lack of a VNU ... but on the other hand, it’s not entirely clear what kind of boat we need? It’s clear that the DPL only for two navies, the Baltic Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet. It is also clear that in the two ocean fleets we will not hide behind the "cruisers" ... they will never be enough, in the sense of the same 30-50 units. Therefore, in addition to cruisers, we need Build "submarine destroyers and frigates". You need something like project 671, or like Chinese nuclear submarines "095". Two / three times smaller than our Ash trees. 16 UVP, +24 torpedoes and similar devices. 33 knots. Single-hull. Single-shaft. And it will cost three times cheaper, and it will be built faster. And you can build even in Krasnoye Sormovo, even in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. And if, like the USA, we equip each with two crews, then the KOH will increase. And that means we will always be to keep groups of nuclear submarines in the areas of the oceans we need." Well, what else do we need?
  25. -1
    23 January 2022 14: 24
    Yes, 300 kg of the Onyx warhead and 450 kg of the Caliber are not 750 kg of the Granite, however, this is more than enough for the majority of modern ships.
    Well, yes, Iowa was written off, and the rest and 300 kg will be enough (and special warheads for aircraft carriers).
    The Americans abandoned the Seawulf, and they did the right thing. We have not abandoned Ash, simply because there is nothing else, and cannot be in the near future.
    Well, why, Borey can be converted into cruise missiles. We'll save more.
  26. +1
    23 January 2022 14: 28
    When will they actually modernize and replace the URO, and so on. fillings in the nuclear submarine of the 949 project, then their new combat value will become clear. And you can operate them competently, taking into account the motor resource and the "fatigue" of iron.

    And this is more competent than the massive "spray" for pennies of dozens of nuclear submarines in the 90s drinks
  27. +1
    23 January 2022 14: 52
    It seems to me that the main wear factor is the ship's hull. Those. what the hull is made of, how intensively it was used in what waters it swam and nuclear submarines of the latest generation of the USSR should have minimal wear and tear - a titanium hull + special coating and minimum service life (active) and arctic latitudes so the boats can still serve. And it is not necessary to actively exploit them, their missiles from the pier cover the whole of Europe. Well, if the boat moved 20-30 kilometers from the coast from the base and under water it cannot be destroyed even by a nuclear strike without 1000% detection.
  28. AML
    -5
    23 January 2022 15: 06
    Quote: Lair
    I would like to comment on the article as a person who knows the issue firsthand (I worked at USC for several years).

    What is your evidence? None? Great. Everything you scrawled below is called a forgery.
    1. +5
      23 January 2022 16: 08
      Quote: Angry
      Single-hull. Single shaft. And it will cost three times cheaper, and it will be built faster

      I would like to believe that reason will prevail and we will begin to build
      single-hull
      single-reactor
      single-shaft
      submarines are small in size, with a margin of buoyancy of 8-15%, as is customary in the rest of the world. Project 949 Antey from the very beginning caused extreme bewilderment for many, two hulls, two reactors, two shafts, a huge displacement of 23900t, and with such a huge size, a modest ammunition load of 24 cruise missiles in the mines and 28 torpedoes, but the designers poured as much as 9200t of water into ballast tanks ,!!! (23900-14700) and he poops her and rolls her across the seas and oceans back and forth (maybe this was his main purpose.) The modernization of Antey is greatly complicated by its size, complexity of design, piling up of many compartments. where it doesn’t go and the two propellers will remain the same, in modern conditions the combat value of such a ship will be extremely doubtful
  29. +7
    23 January 2022 16: 27
    Quote: AML
    Quote: Lair
    I would like to comment on the article as a person who knows the issue firsthand (I worked at USC for several years).

    What is your evidence? None? Great. Everything you scrawled below is called a forgery.

    There is also evidence, as without them. We open the third volume of Yu.V. Apalkov "Submarines of the Soviet Navy", the section where it is written about project 949 A and we read. There is an even tougher assessment of the situation than in my commentary.
  30. AML
    0
    23 January 2022 17: 09
    Quote: agond

    I would like to believe that reason will prevail and we will begin to build
    single-hull
    single-reactor
    single-shaft
    submarines are small in size, with a margin of buoyancy of 8-15%, as is customary in the rest of the world.


    And let's immediately buy from the bourgeoisie, then 100% will correspond. How many countries are building nuclear submarines? Not? So what rest of the world are you rooting for?


    Quote: agond

    Project 949 Antey from the very beginning caused extreme bewilderment for many, two hulls, two reactors, two shafts, a huge displacement of 23900t, and with such a huge size, a modest ammunition load of 24 cruise missiles in mines and 28 torpedoes, but the designers poured water into the ballast tanks as much as 9200t ,!!! (23900-14700) and he pooped her and rolled her across the seas and oceans back and forth (maybe this was his main purpose.)


    Yes, what difference does it make how much water he rolls, with positive buoyancy.
    If something was moving in my head, then a vague thought might have crept in, but how the loss of mass is compensated during the launch of a rocket. But no, the thought does not move, because there is a bone there.
    Antey is capable of shooting all the ammunition from a submerged position in one salvo and spreading 12 MT of heat and light over an area of ​​1 million square meters. km.
    1. +5
      23 January 2022 17: 48
      [
      Quote: AML
      How many countries are building nuclear submarines? Not? So what rest of the world are you rooting for?

      Nuclear builds are not many, but many are diesel, and Iran and North Korea and even smugglers from Venezuela, and all (with rare exceptions) both nuclear and conventional ones are built according to a single-hull scheme, because this way the boat turns out to be more compact and, as a result, more secretive, and secrecy this is what boats are built for, and boats are also needed to place weapons on them and they don’t need extra water. With the funds spent on the construction of one antei, it was possible to build two single-hull nuclear submarines with one reactor and one shaft, and moreover, twice as fast.
      Quote: AML
      Yes, what difference does it make how much water he rolls, with positive buoyancy.
      If something was moving in my head, then a vague thought might have crept in, but how the loss of mass is compensated during the launch of a rocket. But no, the thought does not move, because there is a bone there.
      Antey is capable of shooting all the ammunition from a submerged position in one salvo and spreading 12 MT of heat and light over an area of ​​1 million square meters. km.

      for reference
      1 when submerged, boats do not have positive buoyancy, they have zero buoyancy
      2 Antey was originally conceived not for shelling targets on land, but for combating aircraft carriers.
      1. +5
        23 January 2022 19: 02
        Antaeus was originally conceived not for shelling targets on land, but for combating aircraft carriers. This is known, and it is also known that submarines / nuclear submarines age faster than BNK. If BNK can serve for half a century, then nuclear submarines never ... Antei were designed for 35 years of operation, so there is nothing for the "young" to sculpt from them, it still won't work out. Now it is unlikely that anyone will suggest that our old women will be able to successfully fight AUS. There is no reliable control center for them, at least for 1000 km ... The equipment has worked out its glory and honor to her! But another time has come, and for another time other ships are needed. And it’s right that nuclear submarines have not served for more than 25 years ... whatever you do, they become obsolete. The enemy does not sleep! And we would need to have a pair of brushes (project 671) for each cruising boat, we do not build others. And letting such pairs go into the Ocean ... It’s dangerous to send a cruiser, say, to the Caribbean Sea .. (Remember Kursk!) But accompanied by a brush / brushes, so for God's sake! You can certainly hope for the Royal Tiger, but they won the T-34! The war showed that quality without quantity will not bring victory, it will only devour resources! Quantity needed! NUMBER!!!
  31. 0
    23 January 2022 18: 00
    The management should have an understanding already now, and all these 15 years it is necessary to build, build, build.
    1. -5
      23 January 2022 19: 11
      Well, in the next 15 years, until 2037, they will build, build and build ships and everything else, and eventually they will reach a fast pace of production.
  32. +5
    23 January 2022 18: 31
    AML (Anatolii), dear, several times in the comments on the site "VO." I answered those who offered two "Sharks" - "Arkhangelsk" and "Severstal", that have been rotting near the pier of the White Sea Naval Base for many years, to be converted into carriers of cruise missiles. Specialists of the SPO "Arktika" (the one that conducts all electrical work on the orders of Sevmash and "Zvezdochka"), after examining the "Sharks" in the year, approximately, in 2010-2012, they said that they did not know how the insulation of wiring, wires and cables would behave , after many years of exposure to radiation, humidity, temperature and pressure, therefore, no guarantees can be given for electrical equipment. And according to their understanding, with any modernization of such old ships, it is necessary to tear out all the electrical wiring and replace it with a 100% new one ... Please don’t throw slippers at me! I haven't worked in the Arctic for a single day.
    1. +5
      23 January 2022 19: 05
      - 941 projects are 48000 tons of underwater displacement, a boat of such dimensions no longer meets the requirement of stealth, and this is what boats are for,
      - cruise missiles have a shorter range than ballistic missiles, which means that to launch them you need to get closer to the enemy, and their stealth is lame (on both legs), their enemy can detect faster
      - these boats are very complex structures, three hulls !!! two reactors, two shafts, many compartments with bulkheads through which many cables pass through seals, access is very cramped and limited. Again, the boat is very large and requires a large repair base for repairs, and there are two boats.
      1. +6
        24 January 2022 12: 54
        941 project is 48000 tons of underwater displacement, a boat of such dimensions has not met the requirement for a long time

        Where did you find them, these boats? They've been safely scrapped for a long time.
        As for stealth, it's a strategist, not a multi-purpose one. The task of such a boat is to hit the adversary in one gulp, and not to show miracles of stealth.
        As for the project itself, it’s quite a secretive cruiser.
        1. 0
          28 January 2022 00: 59
          Donskoy is still in service, but this year it will be decommissioned
      2. +1
        28 January 2022 01: 05
        What does "shark" / "typhoon" have to do with it ???, article for "loaves", 949,
  33. -2
    23 January 2022 19: 15
    And all that the Russian leadership in general and the Ministry of Defense in particular needs today is an understanding of the processes that will begin when the modernization of Soviet weapons systems becomes meaningless.

    Read articles like this and think. Does the author really think that only fools serve in the Moscow Region and the General Staff?
    It certainly makes it easier to point out problems. And if even with a smart look, then in general they can be mistaken for a pro.



    Author! Isn't it weak not to write about problems, but to think about their solution?
    Well, for example, come up with and launch a fundraiser for a submarine? Open an account and here on the site once a month show how much money was collected, as well as how many and where times written requests for help in this matter?



    It's probably weak....
    Or is it another?
    1. +6
      23 January 2022 19: 38
      I would not give a penny for the construction of the next two-hull underwater airship-water carrier.
      1. +1
        23 January 2022 19: 42
        what are you willing to give?
        1. +8
          23 January 2022 20: 27
          For a multi-purpose nuclear submarine of a simple single-hull scheme, with a minimum of compartments with a buoyancy margin of 8-10% with an underwater displacement of up to 7000 tons, with an indicator of technological excellence of no more than 150 tons of underwater displacement per 1 unit of weapon (rocket or torpedo), .. the list can be continued for a long time but me how the taxpayer is not asked
          1. +3
            23 January 2022 21: 02
            this answer can only be answered with a plus!)
    2. -1
      23 January 2022 22: 39
      Would be ashamed at least a little with such ideas. People pay a lot of taxes anyway. Moreover, when they steal no matter how much they give, most of them will be taken into their pockets.
      You have to start with OSK. Or liquidate by privatizing, or transferred to the state. property and with the state. management as in the USSR and China.
  34. +7
    23 January 2022 21: 11
    As a person who took part in the construction of Boreas and ash trees with the letter M from the very beginning, I will say that General Borisov should not be called Borodin.
    The most problematic of course is on a submarine its reactor, which has been operating from the very beginning of the life of the boat.
    But the specified past period is far from critical for these boats.
    But the alteration of launchers is significant. Granites, as you can clearly see in the photo, are the same oblique landing of missiles as on old Soviet cruisers.
    Now all missiles are vertical launch.
    And a significant alteration of the boat is not a cheap pleasure. And not fast at all. Recall the alteration of the cruiser Orlan at Sevmash. And here not sevmash will be involved, but an asterisk. Although she has experience, but not so global rework.
    The military-industrial complex, unfortunately, is now sick, primarily with workers. All links, from bottom to top. This is a fairly inert process, there is no quick deterioration, no improvement. The tops cannot, the bottoms do not want to work, as the great Lenin said.
    1. +1
      24 January 2022 01: 48
      Now all missiles are vertical launch.


      Onyxes normally leave the slope, Caliber can also be taught.
  35. +1
    24 January 2022 00: 19
    Reasonable remarks, but there are some critical objections. The 949's potential to carry that many weapons is unmatched even when compared to the Ashes. We can think of the 949 as arsenal ships. In addition, the maximum 10-year service life after modernization depends on many factors. If the cables and case are in good condition and the upgrade is deep enough, 10 becomes 12-15.
    The main problem is the lack of a "clean" attack submarine to replace the 971, 945. While the 885 can fill this role, it's not perfect. However, in the absence of any Laika/Husky news, the best bet is 885 (6-7 more). It has been proven that they can be delivered on time, and the more orders, the lower both the cost and the time.
    1. +4
      24 January 2022 01: 50
      best choice - 885


      With a price like half of Nimitz and chronic stealth problems.
  36. +1
    24 January 2022 01: 13
    I just read an interesting story. I share, proof at the end.

    https://holodilnik.d3.ru/skaz-o-tom-kak-atomnuiu-podlodku-20-let-na-remont-vezli-2246178/?sorting=rating
  37. +1
    24 January 2022 12: 01
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    chronic stealth problems


    Because there is no jet pump? It is the quietest available. New model (Husky?) how long will it take - 8-10 years?
    As for the price, it will drop if more are built and will need to be compared with the price of a new model.
  38. +2
    24 January 2022 18: 06
    Serge-667 (Serge), dear, "Dmitry Donskoy", "Arkhangelsk", "Severstal" - all in Severodvinsk. "Donskoy" went to the parade to Kronstadt. "Mace" taught to fly. If necessary, a gift from Kandalaksha Bay will safely fly to the state of Florida from it today. Frosts this year up to - 28 were, there is ice on the White Sea.
    Speaking about the secrecy of the "Sharks", the respected agond, perhaps, never heard that back in the mid-80s of the last century, TK-12 and TK-13 ran under the ice of the White Sea. From outer space, the adversary did not see them, he could not listen to them in the White Sea.
    1. +2
      24 January 2022 19: 11
      Of course, the Shark could and swam under the ice of the Arctic, where the depths allowed, and our shelf is shallow, the prevailing depths of our northern seas are Kara 50-100m, the North Sea 20-170m, the Laptev Sea 50m, the movement of a submarine 175m long and overall stand together with felling about 23m and the gap between the ice and the bottom for example 50m ??? , sometimes you come across a pile of ice sinking to a depth of 18m, sometimes you come across areas with depths of 20-30m, and for any you need to use echolocation, which does not contribute to camouflage and the braking distance of a boat weighing 48000t is hundreds of meters.
  39. 0
    24 January 2022 21: 40
    agond, dear, why did you remember the North Sea? "Sharks" there, Norwegian or British gas pipelines, were supposed to find and destroy or just scare the herring? In the Barents Sea from the Kola Sea, where the "Sharks" were based, to the north, mostly deeper than 100 meters. In the Laptev Sea there is a geographical object named after Nansen with depth ... "Sharks" were originally conceived so large that they could break the ice in the Arctic Ocean ...
  40. 0
    25 January 2022 00: 12
    Instead of 22 boats, we are ready to build 6.

    One more shipyard is absolutely needed for the construction of multi-purpose nuclear submarines, otherwise nothing can be changed. Amursky built nuclear submarines, it is easiest to modernize and start building boats there. But we have no time, here we have to wait for an answer from the Americans, then read it, discuss it and answer again.
    1. -1
      25 January 2022 12: 15
      something else is interesting .. along the way he already lost 3 built Ash
  41. 0
    25 January 2022 12: 15
    Roman can be recognized from the first paragraph, but seriously, "2030", taking into account the timing of the capital, is already the year 2040, about Ashes, then everything is simple - upon completion of the Boreev series, they will directly lay them, well, not to mention such trifles as not the total number of Ash trees is 9 units by the 29th year, and not 6 as Roman suggests. And if we take that from the 25th year there will be a laying of pure Ash trees, then by 2040 there will be much more than 9 pieces, but rather all 20
  42. 0
    25 January 2022 14: 13
    In the next decade, one of the main tasks of the design bureaus of ships and submarines in Russia will be to optimize upgrades at minimal cost to continue every project in the Russian Armed Forces that is of sufficient age for modernization.

    Modernization at minimal cost is important for Russia to allow the country to maximize its combat fleet at the level of economic sustainability.

    From an economic point of view, there is something worse than early decommissioning, and that is early disposal. There is no doubt that warships and submarines to be restored will be restored.

    For the recovery of ships and submarines through modernization, the key factor in determining which ships and submarines can and cannot be restored will be the progress of the modernization queue. Russia will most likely try to leave no one else behind, and it is important for Russia to modernize at minimal cost in order to optimize progress in the queue.

    In general, the age of these ships and submarines is not a problem. There are significantly older ships in the United States, such as the aircraft carrier Nimitz.

    As a consequence of all this, intensive modernization work is expected, allowing the restoration of relatively young ships and submarines.

    (Automatically translated from English. Below is the original commentary in English)

    In the following decade, one of the main works of the ship and submarine design bureaus in Russia will be the optimization of modernizations at minimum cost for every project to continue in the Russian Armed Foces, that has enough age for modernization.

    Minimum cost modernizations are important for Russia, in order to allow the country to maximize its combat fleet at the level of economic sustainability.

    In economic terms there is something worse than early decommissions, and it is early disposals. There is no doubt that the combat ships and submarines recoverable will be recovered.

    For the recovery of ships and submarines with modernizations, the key factor to decide which ships and submarines can be recovered and which can not, will be the progress of the queue for modernizations. Russia is likely to try to leave no-one more out, and minimum cost modernizations are important for Russia in order to optimize the progress in the queue.

    In overall terms the age of these ships and submarines is not a problem. The United States ships have significantly more aged like the Nimitz aircraft carrier.

    As a consequence of all it, intense work on modernizations that allow the recovery of relatively young ships and submarines is fairly expected.
    1. -1
      25 January 2022 19: 23
      Modernization at minimal cost is important for Russia to allow the country to maximize its combat fleet at the level of economic sustainability.

      The words are pathetic.
      At the level of economic sustainability
      It's easier to say at the level of no industry
      1. +2
        25 January 2022 20: 24
        Quote: Tests
        agond, dear, why did you remember the North Sea? "Sharks" there, Norwegian or British gas pipelines, were supposed to find and destroy or just scare the herring? In the Barents Sea from the Kola Sea, where the "Sharks" were based, to the north, mostly deeper than 100 meters. In the Laptev Sea there is a geographical object named after Nansen with depth ... "Sharks" were originally conceived so large that they could break the ice in the Arctic Ocean ...

        I made a mistake, instead of the North Sea it was necessary to write the East Siberian Sea. Regarding breaking through the ice when surfacing, there are pictures with pieces of ice about 2.5 m thick lying on the hull of the Shark that surfaced in the ice, there are also pictures of serious damage to its light hull, that is, if you surfaced, then launch all the missiles, the second time you won’t emerge without a major overhaul By the way, that boat was not restored. However, the Sharks could not surface anywhere they wanted to, they had to look for suitable ones, which meant that active sonar had to be used. The huge size of the boat was not due to the need to break 2.5m of ice, the main reason is the size of the rocket, and the military certainly wants to launch them from the mines, so you have to adjust the diameter of the boat to the length of the rocket, if we say rockets are placed horizontally (in pop-up containers), then rockets can be made significantly longer with much more energy and with a greater cast weight. while the boat can be more modest in size
      2. +1
        25 January 2022 20: 38
        Russia has a naval industry that has proven its ability to produce competent, modern next-generation ships in virtually all combat and support areas. The ships and submarines recently put into service in almost all areas prove this. And in the next decade, Russia will restore or achieve the ability to produce in the remaining areas, mainly large warships. That is the reality.

        In the late 1980s, the Soviet Union went through a process of economic mismanagement in which overproduction was paid for with government debt, which led to the collapse of Soviet industry as demand was unable to absorb the goods produced, causing them to collapse with many bad consequences, as well as caused an economic collapse of public finances.

        This is not a mistake caused by socialist principles. It was not socialism, it was bad management. Liberal and conservative economic policies can also lead to the same collapse of public finances in low-tax systems and overproduction, especially of military materials paid for by public debt. In fact, this is the same mistake made by a large number of neo-liberal countries that are actually under the authority of the International Monetary Fund.

        Some people still haven't realized that encouraging the overproduction of war materials in economically unsustainable quantities will lead to the same mistake as the Soviet Union. But this does not apply to the Russian government, and Russia will not fall into the same economic error as the Soviet Union. On the whole, there is good governance in Russia today.

        (Automatic translation from English. Below is the original comment in English)

        Russia has a naval industry that has proven to be able to produce modern competent ships of the new generation in almost all the combat and auxiliary areas. Ships and submarines recently commissioned in almost all the areas, prove it. And in the following decade Russia will recover or achieve the capability of producing in the remaining areas, mostly of big combat ships. This is the reality.

        At the end of the 1980s the Soviet Union suffered a process of bad economic management, in which it was overproduction paid with public debt, that caused the collapse of the Soviet industry because the demand was unable to absorb the produced goods, making their prizes to collapse, with a lot of bad consequences, and also caused the economic collapse of the public finances.

        This is not a mistake caused by socialist principles. It was not socialism, it was bad management. Liberal and conservative economic policies can also lead to the same collapse of the public finances in low taxes systems, and to overproduction, specially of military material, paid with public debt. Basically is the same mistake made by a good number of countries under neoliberal policies that are actually under the rule of the International Monetary Fund.

        Some people still learned not that to promote overproduction of military material, in economically unsustainable amounts, would lead to the same mistake made by the Soviet Union. But this is not the case of the Russian gouvernment, and Russia will not fall in the same economic mistake of the Soviet Union. In overall terms, today Russia has competent management.
        1. +1
          26 January 2022 00: 30
          ... a process of economic mismanagement, during which overproduction (military) was paid for by public debt, which led to the collapse of Soviet industry ...


          Where, excuse me, do you take this nonsense?
          Are you able to express yourself not in letters, but in numbers?
          Are you friends with elementary statistics?
          ps I ask you not to mention 1989 in advance.
          1. 0
            26 January 2022 13: 59
            You can check out the low Russian government debt/gross domestic product ratio compared to other countries. This is a consequence of good governance and is a key factor in allowing Russia to withstand the open economic war that has been going on since at least 2008. An example is Japan, which is currently very vulnerable with a very high ratio.

            You can also check the evolution of the same ratio for Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union and how Russia has made a very serious effort to pay off the public debt of the Soviet Union. In 1998, this figure was over 140%, and now it is less than 20%.

            The mismanagement of the economy in the last years of the Soviet Union is evident, and it is clear that Russia has made significant efforts to recover from the wrong policies of the past 2 decades. Many people blame socialism for the economic mistakes of the Soviet Union, but this is wrong. Other socialist countries did not fall into the same mistake. And instead, other liberal, neoliberal, and conservative economies on a slightly different basis (very low taxes, usually high military spending, high levels of corruption and parasitism on public finances) made the same mistake that led to the bankruptcy of public finances.

            You should be aware that increasing the activity of Russian shipyards with new government contracts, or speeding up the completion of current contracts for current government contracts, would significantly increase Russia's national debt and make Russia much weaker in the face of economic warfare and the effects of military attrition from Allied aid.

            If you want, we can do more with the numbers.

            (Automatically translated from English. Below is the original commentary in English)

            You can check the low level of the Russian ratio of Public Debt/Gross Domestic Product, compared to the ratio of other countries. This is a consequence of right management, and is a key factor that allowed to Russia to resist the clear economic war that is suffering at least since 2008. As example, Japan instead is very vulneable at this point with a very high ratio.

            Also you can check the evolution of the same ratio for Russia since the end of the Soviet Union, and how Russia did a very strong effort to pay the Public Debt of the Soviet Union. The ratio was over 140% in 1998 and is now under a 20%.

            The bad economic management of the last years of the Soviet Union is clear, and how Russia did a strong effort to recover from wrong policies in the last 2 decades is clear. Many people blame the economic mistakes of the Soviet Union to the socialism, but it is not right. Other socialist countries did not fall in the same mistake. And instead other Liberal, Neoliberal and Conservative economies from a lightly different basis (very low taxes, habitually high military spending, and high levels of corruption and parasitization of the public finances), did the same mistake that lead to the bankrupt of the public finances .

            You should know that to increase the activity of the Russian shipyards with new public contracts or accelerating the completion of the current contracts the current public contracts, would mean to increase significantly the Russian public debt, and to make Russia significantly weaker to the economic war and to the military attraction effects of the help to allies.

            If you wish we could get involved more in numbers. no problem.
  43. +2
    26 January 2022 11: 20
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

    All imported. Infrastructure.
    No, not all! "Gosuslugi", "mir" - on servers with "Elbrus". And the transfer of the entire domestic digital infrastructure to its hardware is actively continuing ..
    Well, we build up to 2 km of roads a year, which is about 7 times less than in the RSFSR in the 80s of the last century.

    In the 80s, he already lived at a conscious age ..... Somehow your infa does not coincide much with personal impressions. Perhaps he lived in the wrong regions. In the Krasnodar Territory, there is a feeling that now 7 times more roads are being built.
    It would be better for you not to know how they are built and what they produce, honestly :))))))

    I am personally familiar with three new plants (oil plant, iron smelting, fittings manufacturing) - they are normally built and successfully operate .......
  44. -2
    27 January 2022 05: 36
    Has the admin banned someone again?
  45. -1
    27 January 2022 21: 02
    The author, even burst, but it will be as it should be, and why did you decide that you know what is happening with the loaves in reality ?, maybe there is no "granite" for a long time, oh yes, you should have been notified about this
  46. -2
    28 January 2022 06: 25
    Quote: guerrilla707
    The author, even burst, but it will be as it should be, and why did you decide that you know what is happening with the loaves in reality ?, maybe there is no "granite" for a long time, oh yes, you should have been notified about this

    None of the boats of Project 949 has been re-equipped with Caliber yet. Information about firing practice "Granite" from boats pr.949A is open, you can see for yourself.
  47. 0
    27 March 2022 21: 30
    Instead of upgrading the old "loaves", it is much more logical to produce a series of 8-12 BOREEV pr. 955 (K) upgraded for cruise missiles: Zircon, Caliber and Onyx.
    These are modern boats that will last another forty years.
    The cost and timing of the modernization of the nuclear submarine pr. 949A are comparable to the construction time and the price of the new Borea, why do we need to spend billions on junk if it is soon to be written off ???