Military Review

Self-propelled anti-tank gun Sd.Kfz.164 "Nashorn"

23
Self-propelled gun designed on the basis of tank T-IV in 1942. The design of the components of the T-III tank is widely used. For the self-propelled installation of the tank, the chassis was reconfigured: the rear compartment is located, in the center of the hull there is a power plant, in the front part there are drive wheels, a transmission and a control compartment. The fighting compartment is an armored wheelhouse open from above, in which an 88-mm semi-automatic anti-tank gun 71 gauge long is mounted on the machine. The gun fired at a speed of up to ten rounds per minute.

For firing, high-explosive shells with a mass of 9,14 kg could be used (while the firing range was 15,3 thousand meters), armor-piercing tracer, sub-caliber and cumulative projectiles. An armor-piercing projectile from a distance of 1000 meters at an angle of 30 degrees to the normal is able to penetrate 165-mm armor, and sub-caliber armor with a thickness of 193 millimeter. In this regard, the installation "Nashorn" was very dangerous for all enemy tanks in the event of fighting at long distances. At the same time, the self-propelled gun lost its advantage in close combat — insufficient booking had an effect. Serial production of the Nashorn self-propelled unit began in February 1943 and lasted until the end of the war. It was made about 500 self-propelled guns. These self-propelled guns were part of the heavy anti-tank units.



After the invasion of Soviet territory and the collision of German tank units with domestic tanks KB and T-34, even the most optimistic German leaders realized that the mat. Part of the previously unbeatable Pancervaffe is largely inferior to the new Soviet-made tanks. Roughly sometimes worked, but having excellent armor and powerful weapons, equipped with a B-2 diesel engine, Soviet armored vehicles in 1941 reigned on the battlefields. When the last hopes of a blitzkrieg were scattered, German engineers had to take up work to bring the experimental machines to mass production.

The development of new medium and heavy German tanks was delayed. In addition, it was required to launch completely original designs into mass production. It was obvious that the tanks "Panther" and "Tiger" will not soon become really massive among the troops. The following was suggested. The solution is to use the tank bases that are widespread in the army to install powerful artillery systems on them capable of solving various tactical tasks. Thus, the troops received a whole family of various self-propelled artillery mounts, which belonged to the "class of field systems on a mobile gun carriage." This technique was characterized by placing tools in a half-open cabin. The felling armor defended the calculation of the self-propelled gun only from splinters and bullets. According to this scheme, they assembled and built an anti-tank artillery installation, which later received the designation Sd.Kfz.164.

The unified self-propelled gun carriage (tracked base) of the new self-propelled artillery mount was developed in 1942 by Deutsche Aienenke. The base widely used standard units of the undercarriage of tanks PzKpfw III and IV, which were widely distributed among the troops. This chassis, called "Geschutzwagen III / IV", was developed as a multipurpose base for a whole family of self-propelled units: anti-aircraft, anti-tank, artillery fire support systems, etc. A special feature of this design was the location in front of the transmission housing and the engine near the drive wheel. The fighting compartment was shifted to the stern and was spacious. This made it possible to install a large-caliber artillery system in the cockpit, including a powerful anti-tank gun. But the anti-tank gun for the ACS had to be designed for a new one.

The first ideas of creating a self-propelled "tracked carrier" for the Rak43 were also expressed by 28.04. 1942 at an arms management meeting. Since the development of a completely original design would have taken a lot of time, during the discussion the idea was put forward that it was possible to develop some kind of intermediate sample using units of mass-produced machines that could be put into production at the beginning of 1943. The design contract was signed with Alkett-Borzingwalde ". In turn, the company took advantage of the development of Deutsche Eisenwerke to create a unified self-propelled gun carriage from the nodes of the chassis PzKpfw III and IV. A prototype demonstration was scheduled for 20.10.1942.

Self-propelled anti-tank gun Sd.Kfz.164 "Nashorn"
A column of German armored vehicles is moving along a glade north of Lepel to support German units in the fight against partisans. For ZSU on the basis of the tractor moves ACS "Rhino" (Nashorn). Behind him are two captured light tanks T-26. Photo taken at the end of April - beginning of May 1944


October 02 1942 at a meeting with the participation of the Reich Minister of Weapons Speer and Hitler reviewed the finished project of the chassis from the company "Alkett-Borzingvalde." This chassis in German documents is traditionally the long name "Zwischenloesung Selbstfahr-lafette". Inspired by the rapid pace of structural design, the Fuhrer began to make plans that, with 12.05.1943, the industry could produce 100 self-propelled guns monthly.

The company "Alkett-Borzingvalde" at the request of the management of weapons was developed hull, having the same width as the tank PzKpfw III. The components and assemblies of the new self-propelled artillery, including drive wheels, differentials and transmissions, were taken from the PzKpfw III. An engine with a cooling system, radiators, a silencer - from the middle PzKpfw IV modification F. Supporting and support rollers, tracks of caterpillars sloths, were also borrowed from the "four". The Maybach engine HL120TRM (12-cylinder, volume 11867 cm3, V-shaped, camber 60 degrees, four-stroke, carburetor, power at 3 thous. Rpm 300 hp) was installed in the central part of the body. "Flooring" above the engine as much as possible to place the artillery system around the center of gravity of the self-propelled gun.

However, due to the new designation of the projected self-propelled guns, some units had to be re-designed. Structural differences were described in the manual for the self-propelled artillery.

Air duct ("Kuehllufifuehrung"): for cooling the engine, air is drawn in through the intake window made in the left side and bypassing the radiator and the engine itself sloping on the left side of the engine through the hole made in the right side. The air supply is carried out by two fans located on the right side of the engine. The ACS mechanic driver adjusted the air inlet opening.

An inertial starter ("Schwung-kraftanlasser") mounted to the left of the engine was connected to the shaft through a device ("Andrehklaue") mounted on the rear wall of the fire partition. Inertia starter was designed to start the engine SAU in emergency situations. The inertial starter was actuated by the muscular strength of the crew by means of a kickstarter placed in the combat compartment.

Fuel (gasoline, leaded, octane number of at least 74) was in two tanks with a total capacity of 600 liters. The tanks were located under the bottom of the fighting compartment, and the filling necks of the tanks went inwards in such a way that refueling could be carried out even under fire. In addition, special drain holes were made on the bottom of the hull, through which fuel spilled from the housing of the self-propelled gun "was removed". Such devices were closed only when forcing self-propelled artillery installations water obstacles ford.

The cooling device of the water heater "Fuchs" ("Kuehlwas-serheizegerat Fauart Fuehs") was installed on the left side of the ACS hull.

The original was the reservation of a gun shield and cabin. The thickness of the armor plates in the stern and sides was 10 millimeters, which gave the self-propelled gun crew protection from small fragments and non-armor-piercing bullets. Initially, the cuttings in the stern and on the sides were to be made of 20-millimeter, and in the frontal part of 50-millimeter steel "SM-Stahl". However, to save mass, 30-millimeter hardened armor plates were used only in the frontal part of the self-propelled gun body.

The 88-millimeter artillery system "Renzerjaegerkanone" 43 / 1, whose barrel length was 71 caliber (88 cm Рak43 / 1 - L / 71) was mounted in the deck of the ACS with the top of the gun carriage. Structurally, this artillery system was identical to the towed 88-mm PTP Rak43 / 41. However, the gun shield had a rounded shape, which ensured the rotation of the system inside the wheelhouse. The recuperator was installed above the barrel, and the knurler was below. On the sides of the gun were located counterbalancing cylinders. The vertical guidance sector is from -5 to + 20 degrees. The horizontal pointing angle was 30 degrees (in each direction 15 degrees).

In 1944-1945 On these self-propelled anti-tank guns were installed 88-mm trunks from PTP Rak43 on a crucian carriage made by Wercherhtte. However, these samples were made relatively little - 100 pcs.

The standard ammunition 88-millimeter anti-tank guns Cancer 43 / 1 and Cancer 43:
- Pz.Gr.Patr39 / 1 - armor-piercing tracer;
- Pz.Gr.Patr.39 / 43 - armor-piercing tracer;
- Spr.Gr. Flak 41 - frag grenade (old model);
- Spr.Gr.Patr.43 - frag grenade;
- Gr.39 HL - cumulative projectile;
- Gr.39 / 43 HL - cumulative projectile.

Thus, in a short time, with the wide use of serial tank units, a tank destroyer was created, for the first time for German tank building (together with Ferdinand) equipped with a long-barreled (71 caliber) 88-mm artillery system. This machine could hit all the heavy and medium Anglo-American and Soviet tanks from a distance of more than 2,5 thousand, but due to lightly armored and open logging, it was vulnerable during close combat, and in the middle distance, domestic KBs and T-34s left This design has very little chance of survival. Such a self-propelled gun was a kind of "ersatz" who was able to successfully operate only from ambush highly distant positions. As it turned out later, a truly effective tank destroyer should have powerful weapons, be well armored and have a low silhouette, which makes it difficult to defeat such a machine. This self-propelled gun did not possess the last two virtues.

The production plan for the fourth fiscal year was approved by 4 in May of 1944. According to this document, Alkett was completely exempt from the Sd.Kfz.164 ACS assembly. Thus, Stalindustry became the lead contractor for the production of these self-propelled guns. The enterprises of this company were supposed to hand over 1944 machines in 100: in April - 30, in May - 30 and in June last 40.

This program 14 June 1944 was corrected: in April 1944 - 14 SAU Sd.Kfz.l64, in May - 24, in June - 5, in July - 30, in August - 30 and in September - 29. A total of 130 machines should have been manufactured.

88-mm heavy anti-tank self-propelled gun "Hornisse" (Hornet) with its own name "Puma" (Puma). It belongs to the 519-th tank destruction division. Belarus, district of Vitebsk


It should be noted that in parallel with the production, an epic unfolded to rename this ACS, turning Sd.Kfz.164 from Hornisse (The Hornet) into Nashorn (Rhinoceros).

For the first time, the idea to rename Sd.Kfz.l64 to Hitler visited 29 in November 1943. The new name of the February 1 self-propelled guns 1944 was already mentioned in the OKW documents (Wehrmacht Chief Command), and February 27 in the orders of the OKH (Army Commander-in-Chief).

However, in the official correspondence dated 1944 in the summer, the old name is still present - "Hornisse" ("Hornet") and only starting from September 1944, the new - most specific - designation "Nashorn" was introduced into the document flow.

The motivation for such a renaming remains unclear. Probably, “Rhino” in German sounds more threatening than “Hornet”; Probably, the pedantic Germans wanted to identify the entire "subclass" of new types of ACS (tank-firing self-propelled guns) and tanks with mammals (although in this case there are exceptions - the Pz IV / 70 fighter tanks never received the name). Perhaps there is a third option: the self-propelled artillery "Hornisse" should have been equipped with a 43 X-gun of the caliber 88 mm, but in practice this did not happen. But in any case, the "reincarnation" was completed and in September 1944 in the Wehrmacht appeared a "new-old" SAU - Sd.Kfz.164 "Nashorn" ("Rhino").

Serial production of self-propelled guns of this type was delayed (in total it was planned to release 500 self-propelled guns "Hornissa" and "Nashorn"). But since Anglo-American aviation, following the principles of General Douai - the theoretician of air strikes, continued to systematically destroy weapons German factories, according to the next program for the production of armored vehicles, dated January 30.01.1945, 1945, the Stalindustri company was ordered to deliver 9 vehicles in January XNUMX, and the last two in February.

14 March 1945 at a meeting with the inspector general of tank forces discussed production issues, including the difficulty of starting the mass production of new 88 mm SAU "Waffentraeger" and 150 millimeter SAU artillery support "Hummel" ("Bumblebee"), the same with "Nashorny" on track base.

At this meeting, documented the cessation of production "Nashornov." In addition, the German industry tried to start large-scale production of its "successor" Sd.Kfz.164 - the "Waffentraeger" tracked conveyor equipped with an 88-millimeter artillery system Rak43.

560-th heavy division of tank destroyers, took part in the Forty-second Army Corps in the operation "Citadel" and did not lose irretrievably any ACS. The batteries of the division supported the 282, 161, and 39 infantry divisions of the Wehrmacht. However, in August, the 560-th separate division lost 14 machines, of which several self-propelled guns went to the Soviet troops as trophies. To compensate for the losses of 3 September, five cars arrived, October 31 - five and the same number of November 28. The last replenishment of the material part - four ACS - was held 03.02.1944.

According to the 560 Division Headquarters, by the end of 1943, the self-propelled gun crews destroyed the 251 tank during the fighting.

4 February The 1944 division received an order in the shortest time possible to move to the rear, from where it was to be transferred to Milau to re-equip the new “Yagdpanther” self-propelled guns. According to the report from 01.03. 1944 combat losses of the unit during the operation as part of the Fifty-seventh Tank Corps amounted to 16 SAU "Hornisse." The 560 Division at the end of April was completely re-equipped with Jagdpanther tank destroyers.

From 11.07.1943 to 27.07.1943, the 521-I battery of the 655 division of tank destroyers participated in defensive battles east of Orel. 27 August 1943, the combat experience of the unit was summarized in spec. report.

At the beginning of the battle, the battery had 188 soldiers, 28 non-commissioned officers, 4 officer, 13 heavy self-propelled guns Sd.Kfz.l64 "Horniss", 3 anti-aircraft installations "Flak-Vierling". This unit was part of the Thirty-fourth Army Corps of Army Group Center. The 521 battery in combat participated from 11 to 27 in July.

Self-propelled guns in two weeks of fighting destroyed one KV-2, 1 М3 "General Lee" of American production, 1 MLRS on tracked chassis, 1 tank T-60, 3 truck, 5 tanks T-70, 19 tanks, XVUMX 30, one tank MKII "Matilda II" out of action.

German losses mat. the units consisted of one Kfz.l and “Maultir”, two tank destroyers “Hornisse”. Killed - one gunner and one car commander; missing one commander of the vehicle; injured - 20 soldiers, six non-commissioned officers and two officers.

For self-propelled guns "Horniss" in battle the most effective was the following tactical method: self-propelled artillery installations Sd.Kfz.164 must operate from disguised positions, reflecting the onset of enemy armored vehicles.



A good example is the battle conducted on July 13 1943, a platoon of SAU 521-th battery. Then the platoon "Hornisse" with a well-disguised position knocked out four tanks T-34 and 12 KB. The platoon of casualties did not suffer, even though the Soviet troops attacked with support from the air.

When the stationary tanks were used as artillery firing points, success could only be achieved after careful on-foot reconnaissance and only with sudden fire from a short distance to which the Horniss self-propelled gun went out secretly. Self-propelled gun after high-speed "fire raid" again departed to the shelter.

An example of such an action was a battery bout, conducted on July 23. During the extremely dangerous advance of infantry and enemy tanks to the rear and flank of the grenadier regiment, the battery moved into the hollow and after a foot reconnaissance took firing positions. From the new position, one T-34 and KB tank was hit. Thus, the Soviet troops at the time were stopped.

In total, in the period from 1943 to 1945. According to German data, 500 machines were made from 494 machines planned for construction. We can say that the release program "Nashornov" almost fulfilled. The 01 February 1945 was still a 141 machine of this type in the troops, but by April 10 only the 85 SAU Sd.Kfz.164 was left. Nashorn.



Tactical and technical characteristics of self-propelled artillery installation "Hornisse" / "Nashorn" ("Hornet" / "Rhino"):
Combat weight - 24 t;
Crew - 5 man (commander, radio operator, loader, gunner, driver);
Dimensions:
- full length - mm 8440;
- length without barrel - 6200 mm;
- width - 2950 mm;
- height - mm 2940;
- The height of the line of fire - 2360 mm;
- Base tracks - mm 2520;
- the length of the track surface - 3520 mm;
- clearance - 400 mm;
Specific pressure per pound - 0,85 kg / cm2;
Power reserve:
- on the country road - 130 km;
- on the highway - 260 km;
Speed:
- maximum - 40 km / h;
- cruising on the highway - 25 km / h;
- on the country road - from 15 to 28 km / h;
Obstacle obstacles:
- slope - 30 degrees;
- trench width - 2,2 m;
- wall height - 0,6 m;
- Wade depth - 1 m;
Engine - "Maybach" ("Maybach") HL120TRM, power at 2,6 thousand rpm 265 hp;
Fuel stock - 600 l;
Transmission (early / remaining):
- speeds forward - 10 / 6;
- back - 1 / 1;
Control - differentials;
Chassis (for one side):
- drive wheels located in front;
- 8 double rubber coated rollers assembled into four bogies with a diameter of 470 mm;
Suspension of road wheels - leaf springs;
Track width - 400 mm;
The number of tracks - 104 in the caterpillar;
Communication:
- for linear machines radio station Fu.Spg.Ger. "f" or FuG5;
- for SAU battery commanders - FuG5 and FuG8;
- intercom;
Booking:
- gun shield - 10 mm (since May 1943 g. - 15 mm);
- forehead felling - 15 mm;
- cutting deck - 10 mm;
-6opta enclosures - mm 20;
- The forehead of the body - 30 mm;
- housing roof - 10 mm;
- body feed - 20 mm;
- the bottom of the case - 15 mm;
Armament:
- 88-mm cannon Rak43 / 1 (L / 71);
MG-34 machine gun caliber 7,92 mm;
two MP-40 submachine gun caliber 9-mm;

Ammunition:
- shots - 40 units;
- cartridges of caliber 7,92 mm - pcs 600;
- cartridges of caliber 9 mm - 384 pcs.

German anti-tank self-propelled gun "Rhino" (Panzerjäger "Nashorn", Sd.Kfz. 164). The photo was taken on the Soviet-German front at the beginning of 1944.


Canadian soldier on captured German self-propelled gun "Nashorn." Summer 1944 of the year

Soldiers of the Westminster Regiment of the 5 of the Canadian Tank Brigade (Westminster Regiment, 5th Canadian Armored Brigade) in the combat detachment of the German SAU Nashorn (Sd.Kfz. 164 "Nashorn"), shot down from the PIAT anti-tank grenade launcher of the village of the village of the village of the village of the village of the village of the village of the village of the city of a village of a village of Italian, in the village of a village of the Italian anti-tank gang. Pontecorvo)


Sending ACS Sd.Kfz.164 to the front. It is clear that these are modernized self-propelled guns: the barrel-shaped muffler is no longer there, but the fixers of the guns of the old design. Most likely these are the machines with which the 650 has been equipped with a heavy tank destroyer. May 1943 of the year.


Disguised SAU Sd.Kfz.164 "Hornisse" in the original combat position. Most likely this is Italy, the 525 heavy tank division, 1944 year



After installing the sight SflZFIa gunner exposes the cylinder sighting system ZE 37. Italy, 525 Division of tank destroyers, summer 1944 of the year


The self-propelled gun "Horniss" of the early type in anticipation of the attack of Soviet tanks The bracket is folded up, on the barrel of the mark on the 9 or 10 of the enemy tanks that were shot down. Army Group Center, 655 Division Tank Fighters, summer 1943 of the year.




A snapshot of one of the early ACS "Hornisse"


Self-propelled gun Sd.Kfz.164 "Hornisse" early type. The steering wheel-gate of the rear lock of the 8В-mm gun is clearly visible in the opening of the cabin; there is a barrel-shaped muffler at the rear of the hull. The armored antenna input is located in the rear right upper corner of the wheelhouse - such antenna inputs were only available on commander vehicles equipped with a FuG 8 radio station. Summer 1943 of the year


The first series of Sd.Kfz.164 vehicles assembled by Alkett in February-March 1943 of the year and received in the 560-i separate heavy tank destroyer division. One can see the characteristic differences of the early-generation ACS: driving wheels from Pz.Kpfw.m Ausf.H, two front headlights, an external bracket for the gun barrel (early type), a barrel-shaped silencer, TIPS, toolboxes, and fastening of the sections of the banniki. Spring 1943 of the year


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  1. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 20 September 2012 10: 16
    0
    The article is detailed, well illustrated - this is a plus, but there are enough minuses ...
    So, then, the author says that the T-34 and KV reigned on the battlefields in 1941?
    A serious unit, you will not say anything ...
    In general, the presence of all these machines, built in approximately the same way, gave rise to myths about Ferdinand participating in almost every battle ...
    1. Skavron
      Skavron 20 September 2012 11: 20
      0
      And what, didn't they "reigned" ???
      1. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 20 September 2012 13: 20
        0
        Do you know where the front line was at the end of 1941? And even in 1942? Strange reign ...
        1. Skavron
          Skavron 20 September 2012 17: 19
          +1
          I know. But now the conversation is about technology, and not about military successes or failures. In 1941, the Germans did not have anything that could be compared with the t-34 and apt.
          1. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 20 September 2012 20: 44
            0
            A certain Slyusarenko entered into battle with the enemy, commanding a KV battalion, the enemy had T-3s (the German designation was broken), as a result he lost 13 tanks - is this called reigning? The KV had a lot of shortcomings, suffered from childhood illnesses and T-34s, so the term "reigned" sounds inappropriate ...
            1. Skavron
              Skavron 20 September 2012 23: 10
              0
              It’s funny for me to compare apt or t-34 with a German t-3.
              KV had a lot of shortcomings, suffered from childhood diseases and T-34 (s)
              And the t-3 was an ideal tank building ??? Yes, they can’t even be put next to ...

              Better yet, read the recollections of German generals. There was a quiet panic among them at that time, because they could not do anything with sq. And they knocked out as a result of incredible luck or captured by Soviet artillery.
              1. Kars
                Kars 20 September 2012 23: 17
                +3
                Quote: Skavron
                And t-3 was an ideal tank building ???

                A trophy beloved by Soviet tank commanders, he set himself up in 1941 so that the Germans reached Moscow.
                Quote: Skavron
                There was a quiet panic among them at that time.

                Really? And look for the first impressions of Halder? They are far from panic.
                And then they already had to justify their losses and mistakes.
                The sign of the opus that they like to bring about battles near Mtsensk shows only that the Fritz showed negligence.
                Quote: Skavron
                captured by Soviet artillery

                What is it? 45-koy? And why forget the 8.8 anti-aircraft guns and the 100mm cannon, for example, the 47 mm Czech Fri. Also, the 38 should not be forgotten.
                1. Skavron
                  Skavron 20 September 2012 23: 50
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  A trophy beloved by Soviet tank commanders, he set himself up in 1941 so that the Germans reached Moscow.

                  And where did such information come from?
                  Quote: Kars
                  Really? And look for the first impressions of Halder? They are far from panic.

                  And you read carefully.
                  Quote: Kars
                  And why forget 8.8 anti-aircraft guns

                  Exactly ... anti-aircraft gun !!! They had to use fine anti-aircraft guns, not for their intended purpose, but to stop Soviet tanks.

                  About the guns of the same Halder, 76mm divisional gun, I don’t remember the index, but you can of course google it.


                  And just do it, gentlemen, KV is a heavy tank, with anti-shell armor, designed as a breakthrough tank. Tell me the German counterpart ??? Or American? Or what else ...
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 20 September 2012 23: 58
                    +2
                    Quote: Skavron
                    And where did such information come from?

                    I read books
                    Quote: Skavron
                    And you read carefully

                    Absolutely routine description of the destruction of the T-34 28 or 30 June 1941
                    Quote: Skavron
                    Exactly ... anti-aircraft gun !!!

                    Ну и что?
                    Quote: Skavron
                    About the guns of the same Halder, 76mm division gun, I don’t remember the index

                    But I remember the F-22, SPM, and for the Germans to use them, they had to bore the chambers, correct the vertical aiming, etc.
                    Quote: Skavron
                    Tell me the German counterpart ???

                    Why? Someone argues about the championship? At least I can bring a French tank.
                    And then a tiger appeared (although the T-3 and T-4, after modernization, had ballistic armor, especially the forehead)
                    1. Skavron
                      Skavron 21 September 2012 10: 07
                      +1
                      Kars, of course, can destroy any tank, who argues.
                      I simply pointed out that the Germans did not have analogs of the KV and T-34, and the German anti-tank artillery did not take them. So the Germans had to use everything that could penetrate Soviet tanks.
                      So I say that everything is relative. So let's compare a German heavy tank in 1941 with a Soviet heavy tank ?!
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 11: 13
                        +2
                        Quote: Skavron
                        that the Germans didn’t have analogs of the kv and t-34

                        To be honest, it was --- captured French — but they didn’t fit under Blitzkrieg.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        and the German anti-tank artillery didn’t take them

                        It’s also not true - it took, only the distance is important. And already in 1941 there was 50 mm PT PAK-38
                        Quote: Skavron
                        So let's compare a German heavy tank in 1941 with a Soviet heavy tank ?!

                        Why? Make it better to compare German and Soviet tank formations - companies, regiments, divisions - their composition, the presence of infantry, artillery and vehicles, repair vehicles and see who had the best efficiency, despite the quality of the tanks.
                      2. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 11: 45
                        0
                        50 mm PT PAK-38 took, according to the same Halder just not in the forehead. Only if you fell under the tower and jammed it.

                        Kars, well, it's not about compounds and their use, it's about technology.

                        Quote: Kars
                        ... and see who had the best efficiency ...

                        Well, if we talk about EFFICIENCY, then we should already consider the war as a whole and the army in particular. Who won there, recall? ))))
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 11: 51
                        +1
                        Quote: Skavron
                        50 mm PT PAK-38 took, according to the same Halder just not in the forehead

                        HF yes, but sometimes it’s enough just to beat the caterpillar.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Kars, well, it's not about connections and their use, it's about technology

                        A technique that is not used? Or is not used by connections?
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Who won there, recall? ))))

                        And how many years to recall? With what losses, both human and for the national economy, to recall?
                      4. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 12: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        A technique that is not used? Or is not used by connections?

                        I compare technology, not its application. What to argue about?
                        You can say with your logic that the car is one formula, a very worthless car to drive on our road And we will be right. So with tanks, the tank is good and the opponents did not have this, but they used it badly)
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 12: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Skavron
                        What to argue about?

                        To begin with? That you are not competent to argue on this topic.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        And what, didn't they "reigned" ???

                        This is the beginning of the argument. And the answer was that they didn’t reign until 1944-45.
                        Something else?
                      6. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 12: 37
                        +1
                        The word "reigned" here should be understood as "the best".
                        If you do not understand this, then it is sad. Perhaps I should have expressed myself in a more accessible language. I apologize.

                        By the way, I read your profile. Trolling. Now everything is clear, an argument for the sake of the argument. Well, I don’t argue like that, I expressed my opinion and I think it is correct, if you are not satisfied, then dismiss. We do not feed trolls.
                        Collect modelka and pound further))))))) good luck))))
                        p / s, although I have to agree, you have credited pictures.
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 13: 06
                        0
                        Quote: Skavron
                        The word "reigned" here should be understood as "the best".

                        A strange understanding if honestly. And how does this relate to the 15 lost Soviet tanks in the first half of 000? (This is not German data but ours)
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Now everything is clear, a dispute for the sake of the dispute

                        Naturally, but this dispute requires knowledge.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        We do not feed trolls

                        It is a pity that vetting in this process may have gained something, knowledge there, something else - and not standard dogmas from DOSOaf literature.
                      8. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 14: 08
                        0
                        Oh yes, Kars, I get it.
                        The Russian soldier was not full. Stalin was a nerd, a coward, was afraid of everything, disbelieved everything, shot all the generals, made a bunch of antediluvian tanks. The Russians did not know how to fight, but took only in numbers, filling the Germans with mountains of cannon fodder. Tanks, guns, planes were all obsolete, there were few new ones, they were also bad, and the Germans successfully fought them.
                        The Germans themselves had all the tanks, guns, airplanes buzzing, all the newest, they didn’t have Czech and French antediluvian crap, the soldiers did well. And just do it if it weren’t for winter then they would be awesome !!! They would pinch us ...
                        Just right, Kars, yelling Heil Hitler !!! And hang an iron cross with oak leaves on you.
                        Well, it's so emotions)

                        As I understand it, are you proud of your knowledge in the field of military history?
                        According to you, you read a lot of books, collect photos. This is highly commendable, BUT! You read, then do you analyze what you read? It seems to me that no.
                        And yet, if a person reads a lot, then he a priori cannot write with such grammatical errors as yours. So this moment worries me a little. Of course, if you read on the Internet, various re-posts, passed through the "right" hands of the "right" rewriters, then everything can be.
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 14: 39
                        +3
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Oh yes, Kars, I get it

                        Really?
                        Quote: Skavron
                        I met people like you

                        Exactly? Such as me? Are you sure?
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Russian soldier was not full

                        I have here 4500 comments, will you find such my statement?
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Stalin was a nerd

                        Did I write this somewhere?
                        Quote: Skavron
                        made a bunch of antediluvian tanks

                        Almost 26
                        Quote: Skavron
                        there were few new

                        Many?
                        Quote: Skavron
                        And hang an iron cross with oak leaves on you.

                        In the form of a souvenir, I’ll even put it in one closet with my grandfather’s medals, including the capture of Kennigsberg and two courageous.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        As I understand it, are you proud of your knowledge in the field of military history?

                        This is my hobby.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        BUT! You read, then do you analyze what you read? It seems to me that no

                        It’s recommended that you cross, and on the topic you have not confirmed a single thesis, so I can’t even imagine what you are doing with the information.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        write with grammatical errors like yours. So I'm a little worried about this moment

                        I must throw something to my opponents so that they have something to say.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        passed through the "right" hands of the "right" rewriters, then anything can be.

                        So prove at least something of your own.

                        Could you call visitors to this site to characterize my personality? Or do you think that my rating was sent to me for Heil Hitler?
                      10. Brother Sarych
                        Brother Sarych 21 September 2012 14: 48
                        +2
                        You still cry - you look who will regret!
                        Themselves got into an argument not about the case and got a couple of clicks on the nose ...
                        You were initially wrong, and now you began to write opponents in the Nazis? Oh well...
                      11. spender
                        spender 21 September 2012 14: 58
                        +2
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Oh yes, Kars, I get it. I met people like you homegrown goebbels.

                        As they say: I go nuts dear edition !!! You don't often see how an honored forum member is accused of fascism and "illiteracy in the tank theme" ... I don't know who he is Skavron, which so famously sculpts cliches here, but Kars has known for a long time that the person who is literate, read many times and versed in armored vehicles from different eras and countries cannot think of any of the other members of the forum. hi
                        The fact that conducting discussion of technology is slipping into political controversy is considered incorrect, positively evaluating German technology and their engineering school, we do not approve of fascism ...
                        Sorry to interfere in your dispute hi
                      12. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 15: 36
                        0
                        Well, if he is so literate in the tank theme, then he still had to admit that on June 22, the Germans had nothing like the Soviet KV. And do not move out to their application.
                        The losses were monstrous, but this is not the result of the "poor quality" of the tank, but just how they were used. Kars, you know how many Soviet tanks were simply abandoned by the Soviet army during the retreat, if only for lack of fuel. This also applies to your 15 thousand.

                        I started the argument with this. Maybe you didn't like what I wrote "reigned". I repeat once again that I meant the best.

                        Yes, of course I got excited about the accusation of Hitlerism, I apologize to the respectable public and Kars personally for this, but the rhetoric about German superiority, for some reason, constantly and unreasonably skips ...

                        Although my personal opinion is my personal opinion. If you don’t like that I am expressing it here, then you can relax and not freak out. I will no longer. hi
                      13. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 15: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Skavron
                        that on June 22, the Germans had nothing like the Soviet HF

                        I already gave the French tank that the Germans had - they did not need it.
                        Quote: Skavron
                        but this is not a result of the "poor quality" of the tank

                        One sticks out of the other, how many tanks have broken off? How many were shot down due to the fact that the surveillance devices did not make it possible to see the target. Sometimes laughter parses when they proudly say that that KV returned from the battle with 112 dents, and not one broke through-- -And it doesn’t occur to anyone that what kind of tank is it that gave itself to hit 112 times?
                        Quote: Skavron
                        the respectable public and Kars personally, but the rhetoric of German superiority, for some reason, constantly and unreasonably skips

                        There’s no need to sorrow, and not the rhetoric of German superiority, but just a look at Soviet tank building without a touch of legends and Soviet (often not high-quality) propaganda. Moreover, the presence of German propaganda is not denied.

                        Quote: Skavron
                        I don’t like the fact that I am expressing it here, you can relax and not freak out. I will no longer

                        Just what do you like, the approach to confirming your opinion is not like. And the process itself gives me pleasure.

                        PS. It is not necessary to negate the opponent, otherwise who can I argue with?
                      14. Bigriver
                        Bigriver 21 September 2012 16: 59
                        +1
                        ... on June 22, the Germans did not have anything like the Soviet HF. And do not move to their use ...

                        Sorry to interrupt. But, you do not have enough in-depth knowledge on the topic.
                        TTX on paper, a tank in statics and a tank in combat as part of a compound are very different animals. Sometimes drying out in size at times.
                        Second ... German superiority was due to the long and methodical development of everything, with an almost complete absence of revolutionary transformations. But our tank industry was, at the time the war began, a dozen years. Can you imagine the quality of products in a new industry, which is ten years old?
                      15. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 17: 51
                        +1
                        But forgive me, and you, the year of birth of Pz-1 is 1932, if I am not mistaken.
                        Less than ten years old.
                      16. Bigriver
                        Bigriver 21 September 2012 19: 53
                        0
                        Yes, let him at least what year of birth!
                        For the Red Army of that time, any tank was hi-tech.
                        And for the same Germany - a normal, serial product.
                      17. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 21: 18
                        +1
                        My dear, you are talking nonsense.
                        In the Red Army, the T-26, BT, T-37, 38 T-28 are quite serial tanks produced in large quantities. Is this not a serial product ???
                        In the Red Army, heavy tanks in the series were already in 1935, it doesn’t matter whether they are good or bad, but in Germany, they appeared only in 42 in serial production.
                        So do not tell tales about a normal German serial product.
                        This is for you and my opponent Kars, who is so well versed in armored vehicles of those times, will be able to confirm. Or am I wrong again?
                      18. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 21: 49
                        +1
                        Here he is right. The colleague forgets the limitations of the Treaty of Versailles imposed on Germany. So Germany was catching up (and again I was accused of Germanophilism again) did it quickly.
                      19. Kars
                        Kars 21 September 2012 15: 56
                        +2
                        Thank you for your opinion.
                        Really do not like it when they call a fascist,
                      20. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 16: 09
                        +1
                        Cons do not put fundamentally! I consider this the biggest forum nonsense.
                      21. Armata
                        Armata 23 September 2012 12: 41
                        +2
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Oh yes, Kars, I get it. I met people like you homegrown goebbels.
                        Did you know goebels? Or you know Kars? Don't be so about a person you don't know personally. It is an insult. And by and large everything that concerns armored vehicles, he will give you 100 points in advance. And sets out everything objectively and with evidence. And you that apart from insults can lay out and prove your opinion? Respect is not when a person arranges a scandal and pours mud on others, but when he can prove. Minus you "-". could have given more than one.
                      22. Skavron
                        Skavron 23 September 2012 22: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Yes, of course, I got excited about the accusation of Hitlerism, for this I apologize to the venerable public and to Kars personally

                        I can apologize again ...
                      23. Vadivak
                        Vadivak 23 September 2012 16: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: Skavron
                        Oh yes, Kars, I get it.



                        Don’t get excited, he’s not a fan of the Fuhrer and we’re not under a bag, there’s a normal exchange of views
                      24. Vadivak
                        Vadivak 23 September 2012 16: 44
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        And how does this relate to the 15 lost Soviet tanks in the first half of 000?


                        Then, in a word, betrayal, a mess in the leadership, ignorance of materiel (even gasoline in the T-34), the tankers poured and now, well, you understand
                      25. Bigriver
                        Bigriver 21 September 2012 16: 53
                        0
                        "... I am comparing technique, not application ..."

                        Let's compare.
                        The motor resource B-2 for the 41st year was 70 .., well, let it be 100 hours.
                        Reliability gearbox, transmission will be discussed?
                        We open Eberhard Routh (the regiment commander of the 6th TD). On the "Czechs" by the way, the division was that. Over the three months of the DB on the eastern front, the mileage of linear tanks was about 10 thousand km. Now estimate the motor resource and compare with ours.
                        In the winter of the 45th, during the Pomeranian operation, it seems that Dragunsky enthusiastically stated that 34 matches had run over 500 km in one operation.
                      26. Skavron
                        Skavron 21 September 2012 21: 37
                        0
                        Quote: BigRiver
                        On the "Czechs" by the way, the division was that. Over the three months of the DB on the eastern front, the mileage of linear tanks was about 10 thousand km.


                        Don't tell anyone else like that. Where did Raus manage to wind 10 km?
                        Did he travel in circles around the European part of the USSR ??? Or drove to Vladivostok and back? Do you know geography?
                        Where in there you can make a quarter turn around the globe ???

                        A hundred engine hours is 3000 km. very acceptable.
                      27. Vadivak
                        Vadivak 23 September 2012 16: 42
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        they did not fit under Blitzkrieg


                        They didn’t fit anywhere, it’s the stone age MK-4 Wheel Britain
                2. Vadivak
                  Vadivak 23 September 2012 16: 39
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  A trophy beloved by Soviet tank commanders.

                  The Germans, too, are not fools to collect T-34 and KV
              2. Vadivak
                Vadivak 23 September 2012 16: 38
                +2
                Quote: Skavron
                It’s funny for me to compare apt or t-34 with a German t-3.

                The machine is quite, comfortable, high-speed, radiofitsirovanny, and in skilled hands you yourself know and horseradish balalaika
    2. Yuri11076
      Yuri11076 20 September 2012 18: 22
      0
      Yes, by the way, Ferdinand could call any self-propelled gun, and many called Pzkpfw IV of the last modifications a tiger ...
    3. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 September 2012 16: 35
      +2
      Quote: Brother Sarich
      well illustrated


      here is a technical comparison, not operational
  2. Kars
    Kars 20 September 2012 10: 58
    +4
    That the Germans didn’t do anything to oppose the Soviet tanks. And we must pay tribute to the fact that it is very unfortunate for us.
    The next step of the Fritz
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 20 September 2012 13: 21
      0
      That's the kind of infection in the picture - it's scary to watch ...
  3. Bugor
    Bugor 20 September 2012 12: 02
    +1
    Kars, here you find the pictures !!!
    Plus.
    One passage from the article is not clear: "The battery has moved into the hollow." This is a complete hara-kiri for open cuttings, and, in principle, armored vehicles.
    1. Kars
      Kars 20 September 2012 12: 10
      +1
      Quote: Bugor
      The battery has moved into a hollow. "This is a complete hara-kiri for open cuttings

      Why? They just hid.

      About the photo - I am collecting. Yes, and I have a lot of monographs.
      Quote: Bugor
      here you are

      Look at my profile.
      1. Kars
        Kars 20 September 2012 17: 12
        +1
        Quote: Bugor
        OK! :)
        And trolling is fishing, in the sense of?

        Well, yes, it’s like fishing, it also gives joy. I only wanted to pay more attention to the fact that you do not need me.
  4. Bugor
    Bugor 20 September 2012 12: 17
    0
    OK! :)
    And trolling is fishing, in the sense of?
  5. vik71
    vik71 20 September 2012 14: 54
    +1
    Phenomenal performance indicators .......... As always, they are hidden behind postscripts and unverified data. Such would be stamped 10 thousand - and the war was won by the Wehrmacht love
  6. Kars
    Kars 20 September 2012 15: 38
    +2
    Quote: vik71
    As always hiding behind postscripts and unverified data

    I would like to believe in it.
  7. vik71
    vik71 20 September 2012 15: 59
    +1
    I have this photo, a train broken by aviation near Voronezh 42g.
    1. Kars
      Kars 20 September 2012 16: 02
      +1
      Quote: vik71
      the train destroyed by aviation near Voronezh 42

      it is too?
  8. vik71
    vik71 20 September 2012 16: 26
    +1
    I don’t know this one.

    But judging by the tanks, 44 - 45 years. It also seems that they brought in the wrecked equipment at Prokhorovka.
    1. Kars
      Kars 20 September 2012 17: 10
      +3
      And there is such an opoeosis of war, where all the tanks are on an equal footing.
  9. valiant
    valiant 20 September 2012 16: 55
    +3
    Not a bad SPG on a reliable proven chassis, although the Germans managed to build only 494 units (a little more Hummels - 666). But this is still not a tank, the Naskhorns could not openly get involved in tank battles because of their thin armor and open wheelhouse, they are good only in defense and in ambush operations.


    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 20 September 2012 17: 13
      0
      Well, for this they were built ...
  10. Rod island
    Rod island 20 September 2012 23: 52
    +2
    quite informative