Lugers by Herbert Werle

156
Lugers by Herbert Werle
Craftsman Herbert Werle at work ... Photo waffen-werle.de

You would have called, and I would have given You an answer, and You would have shown favor with the creation of Your hands.
Job 14:15

Weapon and firms. It is difficult to say that Herbert Werle had a "firm". In fact, it was a store where he sold hunting rifles and cartridges for them, as well as everything related to this. But ... at the store there was a workshop, where he was engaged in a very specific work in his spare time, namely: he converted the pistols of Georg Luger P.08 into something very new, that is, he was engaged in weapon tuning. And why not? Someone, after all, is engaged in car and motorcycle tuning, so why not someone engaged in gun tuning ?!


And this is he with his, probably, the most beloved brainchild! Photo waffen-werle.de


And his shop in Dudenhofen. Photo waffen-werle.de

Who was he and what was his working, so to speak, biography that led him to this business? Werle was born on 23 January 1954 in Kirrlach in northern Baden, lived for a long time in Oberhausen, and arrived in Dudenhofen in 1977, and in the same year began serving in the American armed forces in Germersheim. At first he worked as a quality control inspector, and since 1983 he ran a repair shop, which employed up to ten people, and which the Americans built for $ 1,3 million. At the same time he organized a small workshop privately, and in 1993 he opened a shop in Dudenhofen: "Hunting weapons, pistols, revolvers, sporting rifles, repair and sale". The reason was banal: due to the reduction in the number of personnel of the American armed forces in Europe, he was fired, and he had to start his own business. But performing the routine work of a gunsmith, and repairing other people's guns, he often returned to his favorite pastime, the essence of which was that he made certain changes to these weapons, which, in his opinion, improved them.




Rifle "Garand" M1, improved by Verle - it has a removable magazine, so it no longer needs clips! Photo waffen-werle.de


This is what her new bolt and sight looks like. Photo waffen-werle.de

His favorite pastime was the conversion of a former military weapon for sports shooting.

“I have a complete aversion to military weapons,” Werle said, “and actually I'm a pacifist. And thank God that we were born after the war. But ... I like working with weapons. "

Interestingly, when Mikhail Kalashnikov visited Speyer in the 1990s, one of Werle's friends handed him a pistol from Dudenhofen, restored by his hands.


Luger carbine. Pay attention to the handle. There is a hole on it for the equipment of the store, which on hunting weapons, according to German law, must be integral. Photo waffen-werle.de


Barrel with front sight. Photo waffen-werle.de


New sight. Photo waffen-werle.de

Among his favorite weapons was, as you know, the Luger pistol, and he had his own designs for the production of carbines on its basis, the installation of butts, barrels and mounts for optical sights with the possibility of interchangeability. That is, a person came to him and brought one pistol, and in the end - left, taking away a completely different one! In addition, over time, he had a large collection of P.08 models, which, however, lacked a very interesting sample - the 11,43mm Luger, which was made for the US Army. And here his experience of working with American weapon systems came in handy, and he came to the conclusion that ... in small batches for amateurs this pistol could well have begun to be produced!


R.08 Nedbala-Verle .45 ACP. Photo waffen-werle.de


It is disassembled. Photo waffen-werle.de

And it ended with the fact that in collaboration with the Austrian master Karl Nedbal he produced a small series of "Lugers" in caliber .45 ACP. Quite historical, by the way, an option - for testing in the United States, such pistols were really made at one time.


An original automatic carbine based on 98K and R.08. Photo waffen-werle.de


Box-packing. Photo waffen-werle.de


For the conversion was used "Luger" M1909 and a 32-cartridge magazine "snail". Barrel length 600 mm! Photo waffen-werle.de


But such a bayonet relied on him! Photo waffen-werle.de

Then he made ... a double-barreled Luger, and he had an idea to modify the American Garand rifle and adapt it to modern requirements. The question was, is it possible to mount a magazine on this rifle? Also, make it more convenient? He found that both inner receiver strips could be modified to fit an M14 magazine by replacing the .308 WIN cartridge with a 30-06 cartridge.

The idea was born to shorten the barrel, to obtain a stronger gas pressure in the system, and also, due to this, to make the Garand more convenient. Not less important was the fact that on such a renewed "Garand" the sniper scope of the Springfield arsenal could be installed from above, and not from the side, as before.


Shortened "Garand" with a sniper scope. Photo waffen-werle.de


Sight and magazine from the M14 rifle. Photo waffen-werle.de


Shop and shop mine. Photo waffen-werle.de

And then a rather strange idea occurred to him to use parabellum in accordance with his concept of "universal weapon" and the use of the most modern military technologies.


Rifle "Garand", converted by Verle into a sample M1A with an installed sniper scope. Photo waffen-werle.de


The M1 carbine was also converted by Verle and this is what happened. Very original, isn't it? Photo waffen-werle.de

As a result of its implementation, a weapon was obtained that resembles a Kalashnikov assault rifle both in front and in the back, but in the middle it is a P.08.

“The challenge was to preserve the AK47's appearance as much as possible because of its recognizability,” Verle told reporters later, “and I succeeded and I was satisfied with the result!”

In addition, for individual copies of such weapons, he received up to 7500 euros, which once again confirms that anything can be sold on the market.


A hybrid of AK47 and "parabellum". Left view. Photo waffen-werle.de


Another hybrid of AK47 and Parabellum. Photo waffen-werle.de

The most interesting thing about this design is that the barrel of the "parabellum" in this hybrid of AK and R.08 passed through the gas outlet pipe of our machine gun and ... it would have rested on the front sight if Verlet had not welded into it a special ring that serves to pass bullets through it ... The front sight served for aiming, and it serves, and the "machine gun" thanks to the snail magazine can shoot like an "machine gun". Moreover, outwardly, the weapon is well recognizable and looks completely finished.


You can't say the same about the hybrid R.08 with the American M4 carbine, it somehow came out ... "clumsy", but, nevertheless, it is a real find for collectors of unusual small arms! Photo waffen-werle.de


The sight had to be mounted on the stock, there was nowhere else! Photo waffen-werle.de

Would Herr Luger approve of such "creativity"? Verle stated that he sincerely believes that he would admit that this method is identical to his own approach. After all, Georg Luger himself reworked and improved Borchard's bulky and inconvenient pistol C. 93 to make it convenient and practical for military use. True, many consider the Luger pistol a part of history, and it, they say, cannot be changed. But on the other hand, it is very valuable to learn from history and revive it. John Martz in the USA, Nedbal in Vienna, Hakan Shpur in Sweden, Boddecker and Wagner, and many other gunsmiths followed this path. And Herbert Werle himself followed it, creating the "Baby Luger", "Luger Carbine", and a number of original samples based on the same pistol.


"Baby Luger" is a mini-version of a pistol in 7,65 mm caliber. The total length of the standard "Luger" is reduced to 17 cm with a halved barrel (52 mm). Photo waffen-werle.de


Exploded view of Baby Luger. Photo waffen-werle.de


"Baby Luger" with the bolt cocked. Photo waffen-werle.de


Another very curious hybrid: the Luger plus a .22 pistol. For target shooting and hunting! Photo waffen-werle.de

The first Parabellum pistol has a standard 9 mm caliber and is equipped with a wooden stock and a long barrel with a muzzle brake. The second pistol, which is attached to the first .22 LR caliber, has a bipod, as well as a piece of wood stock borrowed from a Thompson submachine gun and a pistol grip. But the magazine is not in the handle, but in front of the trigger. Verle himself noted that once this weapon was held in his hands by M.T. Kalashnikov.


Exhibition of designs created by Herbert Werle. Photo waffen-werle.de

But he will no longer give us new original designs - he died on January 20, 2021, three days before his birthday.
156 comments
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  1. +23
    12 December 2021 06: 12
    Well I do not know...
    Tuning, he really is not for everybody.
    As for me - "Luger" itself is a beautiful and finished thing.
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Really, the material is rare.
    1. +24
      12 December 2021 06: 48
      Then I got confused somehow ... How is it
      I have a complete aversion to military weapons
      and right there
      I like working with weapons
      Now it is fashionable to call it cognitive dissonance, but earlier it was easier and more understandable to say: “you either take the cross, or put on your panties”
      Well, okay, do not pay attention to the grumbler, it is better to pay attention to the samples of the master's weapons - worthy! Thanks to the author for the material, it was interesting to read!
      1. +15
        12 December 2021 09: 59
        and before it was easier and more understandable they said: "you either take the cross, or put on your panties"

        I have heard a more plowy version of "Father, you either take off the cross or get your robe out of your panties" !!!
    2. +17
      12 December 2021 07: 29
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Really, the material is rare.

      I remember the covenant of Commerce of the Snow Queen's advisor: You need to get rich on rarities ...
      1. +4
        12 December 2021 20: 08
        I remember the covenant of Commerce of the Snow Queen's advisor: You need to get rich on rarities ...

        Pareto's law, Vyacheslav Olegovich? Like, 20 percent for "connoisseurs"? lol
        1. +4
          13 December 2021 07: 05
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          Pareto's law, Vyacheslav Olegovich? Like, 20 percent for "connoisseurs"?

          Ha! The chief commerce advisor to the Snow Queen (he was a dear man!) Said this: You need to get rich on rarities. In summer, ice is rare and I sell ice. Flowers are rare in winter (I can't stand them), but I will sell! "
    3. +16
      12 December 2021 07: 33
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Well I do not know...
      Tuning, he really is not for everybody.
      As for me - "Luger" itself is a beautiful and finished thing.
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Really, the material is rare.

      I agree with Igor, Luger is beautiful in itself - everything else is from the evil one.
      If I was personally offered to have in the collection the original P08 or alterations of the hero of the article, I would choose the good old Luger.
      While choosing a store Grand M1 or with an original clip? I don’t know here. If you use it, then with a store, if you admire it on the wall, then the original!
      All the good days!
      1. +7
        12 December 2021 07: 47
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        M1 or with the original clip?

        In this regard, I liked his M1 carbine the most. More powerful, more lethal, and more convenient! And you can stuff 32 rounds!
        1. +8
          12 December 2021 10: 01
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          M1 or with the original clip?

          In this regard, I liked his M1 carbine the most. More powerful, more lethal, and more convenient! And you can stuff 32 rounds!

          Still, the M-1 carbine has a much more powerful cartridge than the M-1 "Grand" rifle.
          1. +3
            12 December 2021 14: 44
            I made an unfortunate mistake while describing the M1 carbine, I missed the "not". The M1 carbine has a less powerful cartridge than the M1 rifle
      2. +5
        12 December 2021 09: 36
        Vlad hi But I disagree, sometimes real masterpieces were created precisely with the help of experiments on dogmas! Р08 - A real masterpiece, until now it is one of the sales leaders, and collectors stand in line for "original" samples (also with history), the price for such samples is hundreds of thousands of dollars.
        Vyacheslav Olegovich was pleasantly surprised by the article, My Respect to him!
        1. +13
          12 December 2021 09: 55
          Good morning Alexey, or rather the day!
          Each artist has their own markers, paper and muse!
          As a man in the street, I perceive weapons through my subjective view, and if a lot of what I was shooting, in my personal opinion, it is worth finishing (for example, the Nagant revolver would not be in the way of a hinged drum, and PM Makarov - a button to reset the magazine), then some "toys" can only be tuned only spoil. One of them is P-08 Luger.
          I repeat - this is my personal opinion! hi
          1. +8
            12 December 2021 10: 26
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            then some "toys" to tune just spoil. One of them is P-08 Luger:

            Vladislav completely respect and accept your thought, but ... We perceive the R-08 in its military version, I was very surprised, for example, that a Luger with a long barrel and a stock is one of the most popular "carbines" for hunting small game in South Africa ! Maybe somewhere else request
            Personally, I did not imagine it in such a variant and possibility of application, and the machine is very interesting! hi
            1. +6
              12 December 2021 13: 28
              Aleksey is a "hunting expert", but a Luger with a stock and has been designed for a long time, they looked at the K-94 and spanked themselves, just "Pistols-carbine" or revolving rifles are like a "lateral" outgrowth. Therefore, they are somehow aloof and little known.
              1. +5
                12 December 2021 13: 34
                Vladislav hi I agree, I am especially impressed by the "revolvers of carbines", with the possibility of quick attachment - detachment of the butt. I would gladly buy myself (as a weapon of the last chance) - it's a pity the Legislation does not allow crying
                1. +4
                  12 December 2021 16: 15
                  "I would buy", and I: baby-Luger, Korovina, PM, what will fit in my pocket
                  1. +4
                    12 December 2021 16: 19
                    Quote: vladcub
                    "I would buy", and I: baby-Luger, Korovina, PM, what will fit in my pocket

                    If for self-defense - then of course you are right! And if for the Hunt (as I dream), then it will get the last chance ... not to let the beast abuse me crying shoot himself - leaving proudly drinks
                    1. +3
                      12 December 2021 16: 30
                      Of course for self-defense
              2. +7
                12 December 2021 14: 28
                Glory, hello! ))
                they looked at K-94

                You probably meant the Mauser K-96?

                But Borchardt had attached the stock to his K-93 three years earlier.

                So another question is who borrowed what from whom.))
                1. +7
                  12 December 2021 15: 32

                  First there were the Revolvers! Here's what a Nagant found!
                  Then massively revolvers with a butt were produced for the Border Guard!
                  1. +5
                    12 December 2021 15: 40
                    The idea to sprinkle the stock to the pistol has been in the air since the appearance of this type of weapon.

                    1. +6
                      12 December 2021 15: 44

                      Hmm ... then the argument becomes rhetorical. what
                      But according to the multiply charged samples, I think the Revolvers are leading!
                      Colt Navy 1851.
                      1. +7
                        12 December 2021 16: 04
                        Lyosha, are we really arguing? So, a lazy conversation on an interesting topic.))
                        Here, found another curious Webley, he also with a bayonet, damn it. bully
                      2. +3
                        12 December 2021 16: 14
                        Kostya, you are absolutely right - we are conducting a conversation on an interesting topic!
                        As for Webley ... I just broke my head, how ??? Well, how to string someone on such a bayonet belay
                      3. +3
                        12 December 2021 16: 47
                        how to string someone belay on such a bayonet

                        Most likely - nothing. bully
                        And you never know in the world "wise men" who disfigure a good weapon, like the "hero" of this article, who mutilated an excellent machine. request
                      4. +4
                        12 December 2021 17: 29
                        Quote: Sea Cat

                        And you never know in the world "wise men" who disfigure a good weapon, like the "hero" of this article, who mutilated an excellent machine. request

                        No, well, I also have an idea of ​​how to attach a "small" grenade launcher to the pistol instead of a tactical flashlight feel why just call names then ??? recourse
                      5. +5
                        12 December 2021 18: 37
                        attach a "small" grenade launcher

                        It's one thing - a body kit, a completely different mockery of the system.
                        But with the grenade launcher there were already ideas.)) I found a couple here.

                      6. +1
                        14 December 2021 15: 48
                        Well, this is finally over the top: Mauser - a grenade launcher. AK agrees with the grenade launcher, but this is ......
                      7. 0
                        14 December 2021 16: 15
                        It is impossible to kill a human thought !!! bully
                      8. +2
                        12 December 2021 17: 50
                        I took it off my tongue. The man wanted to show off.
                        The real Parabellum of this tuning man would spit and then shoot
                      9. +1
                        12 December 2021 16: 28
                        Kostya, you don’t know: this Webley with a bayonet, at least someone needed it? In my opinion, it’s a big stupidity: if I didn’t shoot, turn off the beaten track with the handle. They were then about a kilo. If you "weld" it into your temple .... Kerdyk
                2. +2
                  12 December 2021 16: 18
                  Bone, hello. I did not know it.
                  In principle, there is nothing surprising: Borchard-Luger and Mauser worked in the same company
                  1. +2
                    12 December 2021 16: 44
                    Slava, they all worked in completely different offices.
                    On December 23, 1872, brothers Peter Paul and Wilhelm Mauser founded the Gebrüder Wilhelm und Paul Mauser company.
                    Hugo Borchardt and Georg Luger worked for the DWM company of brothers Isidor and Ludwig Leve.
                    1. +1
                      12 December 2021 17: 38
                      Kostya, one of the comrades posted a link about Luger. And there it was that Mauser and Borchard-Luger lived in the same "stable".
                      Do you remember when V.O. talked about Luger?
                      1. +5
                        12 December 2021 18: 22
                        Ludwig Lehve was at one time a member of the directorate of the Mauser concern, then the Leve brothers founded their own company - DWM, from where Parabellum was born.
                        By the way, the motto of this company was a Latin proverb - "Si vispacem, para bellum" (If you want peace, prepare for war), hence the commercial name of the pistol.
                        They also produced a machine gun under this name. MG 14 Parabellum.
                      2. +1
                        12 December 2021 22: 00
                        In that link I heard that Luger came up with this name. Look under Luger. Nikolayevich also talked about this video
                      3. +2
                        12 December 2021 22: 33
                        I will not look for anything, because I know the history of both the company and the weapons created there. And Luger could well have taken part of the company's motto for the name of his pistol, although I very much doubt it, the weapon is too legendary and there are too many fables around it.
                      4. +1
                        13 December 2021 06: 46
                        Kostya, where to read it, to know more precisely?
                      5. +1
                        13 December 2021 13: 10
                        I don’t know what to advise, look for materials on the net, compare. I have all this layered over the years, and it was easier for me - I worked in the museum.))
                      6. +1
                        13 December 2021 13: 36
                        I envy you. In our 20-30s, people lived in poverty, who had a kerosene lamp and a colored lampshade - bourgeois. They could have put a pebble in the window to hit the lamp.
                        So I can rock you if I hit you, in a kerasin lamp
                      7. 0
                        13 December 2021 13: 43
                        So I can stone you

                        To be honest, I didn't understand the humor. request

                        Check out Shpakovsky's "Pomegranate Scam".
                      8. 0
                        13 December 2021 17: 19
                        Now from there.
                        "I didn't understand humor" everything is simple: you know a lot from the "shooter" matsal these trunks. Collected information. I involuntarily begin to envy and, by the way, I remembered how we, out of envy, tried to hit a kerosene lamp with a stone. Here along the way with humor
                      9. 0
                        13 December 2021 17: 29
                        It's clear. ))) drinks
          2. +5
            12 December 2021 13: 22
            Namesake, let me scratch behind the ear: I correctly noticed that Luger tuning unnecessarily
          3. +6
            12 December 2021 13: 40
            Namesake, do you have many matsal weapon systems or theoretically?
            For example, I "makara" once supported everything, and some young ladies, there are some of us, fired and dismantled him.
            On the one hand, it is even enviable, but on the other hand, the young ladies took up arms not because of a good life.
            Something like that
            1. +5
              12 December 2021 14: 40
              Quote: vladcub
              Namesake, do you have many matsal weapon systems or theoretically?

              Vlad, everything is learned in comparison. For me, like a quarter of a century, I have been shooting from a service PM every month, not because of a good life, and at least once a year AK and various submachine guns. And not just like that, but with the delivery of tests. As a child, I was lucky that my mother was assigned a revolver, and my father was PM. Among other things, my toys were cartridges from the shooting range and assembly, disassembly of everything that was in the D / Ch of the ROVD. Then the EHS of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia. First study, then service. Everything that was in service with the Ministry of Internal Affairs for each pair "like a creature" came to us for storage. At the end of the calendar year, all barrels were fired. They looked for victims with fire, and I always asked myself. So over 17 years behind us, from several thousand cartridges from AK of various modifications to a couple of dozen from Val and Vintorez. After 12 work in the UMVD and UT. But there I was lucky with friends from the GRU and the Internal Troops, so I even had a chance to fire from a T-62 tank gun. There is no access to exquisite samples, but I shoot constantly.
              Whether you like it or not, but if you want to pass the standards, you have to force yourself.
              By the way, I sharpened my PM and licked it. according to the maximum Within the limits of the possibility, it barely fits into the regular holster. Well, plus friends, they used foreign samples from Luger to Mauser, but this is no more than a dozen cartridges per barrel.
              So to each his own.
              1. +2
                12 December 2021 15: 15
                I did not shoot "from a tank gun", but I clung to it more than once. She didn't want to use the armored personnel carrier, although she was offered it - too loud
                1. +2
                  12 December 2021 15: 28
                  Colleagues, I wrote it right twice, but the auto editor loves the word; "was" instead of muzzle.
                  1. +2
                    12 December 2021 16: 03
                    You could write: "trunk" and it will untie
                  2. 0
                    14 December 2021 11: 38
                    "instead of a muzzle."
                    Another begs ... almost a rhyme. bully Yes, Rzhevsky came and vulgarized everything.
                    Vera, write without .... an auto editor, huh? It's simple.
                    1. 0
                      14 December 2021 16: 01
                      Yeah, to criticize for literacy?
                      1. 0
                        14 December 2021 16: 51
                        Remember the cartoon? And the answer of both of the casket is the same from the face?
                        * -Yeah! *
                      2. 0
                        14 December 2021 18: 38
                        Of course I remember. I probably remember all the Soviet cartoons.
                        Oh, I’m lying: I don’t know everything, but I remember many. All the same, this is childhood, and you can't forget it
              2. +3
                12 December 2021 15: 26
                "there were shell casings from the shooting range" my boys played with them. My "baby" still keeps the PSM sleeve. Although he served in the army, in Estonia he tried European pistols, carbines and in a "cedar" shmazh from Izh, and the PSM sleeve protects from childhood
                1. 0
                  14 December 2021 11: 40
                  It became interesting what the officer of the Russian army was doing in the country of Estonia? bully
                  He's like a tanker, isn't he?
                  1. 0
                    14 December 2021 15: 58
                    My adopted son, from the age of 1,6, grew up with me, by nationality, Estonian.
                    His father was: Major SA, Estonian. After the collapse of the country, he filed a letter of resignation, wanted to go to Estonia, but did not have time: "on duty." I have a second son "baby" (height 190cm., Weight under 100).
                    And my firstborn will receive shoulder straps in the summer.
              3. +2
                12 December 2021 15: 39
                Namesake, I purely theoretically know: Dart, Pernach, Glock. You may be familiar with: Glock 18 or Beretta 23 r, what do you think about them?
                1. +1
                  12 December 2021 20: 31
                  Quote: vladcub
                  You may be familiar with: Glock 18 or Beretta 23 r, what do you think about them?

                  Both are not pleasant. Although looking for what. If you constantly wear it, then yes, if you shoot and clean it, then no. For permanent wearing, PM and PMM are convenient. For shooting APS, Colt or Gyurza. Prosecutor's Berdysh, Tula Tokarev, Dart not for my shooting style. Although the Dart is very accurate. I shot from Pernacha once. I don’t remember how it felt. I liked Yarygin, but didn't like cleaning. PSM is not for my paw. You can continue for a long time, if according to natiy:
                  The best for shooting is probably the good old Colt. Heavy as a felt boot and soft on the descent and recoil.
                  If you constantly carry, then definitely PSM.
                  If you shoot at targets dash then Margolin.
                  If you hang it on the wall, then a Luger or Mauser. The Luger has a very comfortable grip for classic shooting.
                  According to the totality of all characteristics (now they will kill me), then the PM. Maybe it's a habit. With a normal Israeli handle made of transparent plastic and a magazine reset button (PMG), the old man Makarov has no price.
                  1. +1
                    12 December 2021 21: 30
                    Actually "old man Makarov" - Walter PP, but a little changed
              4. +2
                12 December 2021 15: 58
                Comrades, cats should be afraid, have you heard that the cat is already shooting from the tank? Where are we going? Cats are militarists, young ladies on a dispute PSM are dismantling.
                In my village, though I don't live there now, I saw a photo at school: a 9th grade student, 11 seconds complete assembly and disassembly of the AK 74, but many of us will be able to do that? Lyudmila Yakovlevna once said that she knows the pistol well (it's good if there is only one), many of my peers only saw in pictures.
                Definitely "The Gods Are Mad"
              5. +2
                12 December 2021 16: 01
                "sharpened and got out" that Picatinny spanked?
                1. +1
                  12 December 2021 20: 41
                  Quote: vladcub
                  "sharpened and got out" that Picatinny spanked?

                  No Vlad, they will kill for this. It's just that the handle of my PMG is Israeli, and it has a spur protection against the shutter travel and a full-fledged ring for a safety cord. In order to shove it into a regular holster, I soaked it in kerosene for a week and then pulled it on for six months with the "Japanese mother". Now I got used to it a little. Otherwise, love, cleaning, lubrication and care. However, for bluing, the Muscovites did not tear me out a little, but fought back. You won't paint a gun, but in order to fully oxidize, you need a stove.
                2. +1
                  12 December 2021 21: 23
                  To sprinkle a picatinny to a PM without a thorough locksmith - it's difficult to weld ..... But! I came across a device for attaching a laser center or a flashlight. It was fastened in front of the trigger guard and behind it ...
              6. 0
                13 December 2021 19: 08
                had a chance to shoot from a T-62 tank gun


                At the institute, at the military department, ZAK C60 was studied.
                After graduation, respectively, training took place at the training ground on Lake Ladoga. At the end of the training camp, live firing was coming.
                I don’t remember exactly, but something about 1 shells had to be fired from 6 AZP-57 guns. Shoot ... lol
                The initial velocity of the projectile is 1000 m / s.
                And cotton wool in the ears no longer helped.
                On the head like a sledgehammer every shot.
                The officers were already almost begging the students to shoot ... wassat
                It was necessary to shoot all the shells.
                But from the tank one did not happen ...

                Best regards,
            2. +3
              12 December 2021 15: 10
              "Some young ladies" I, for your information, except for PM, Izh do not consider - the younger "brother" of PM, I know PSM well. I dare to assure you that not all colleagues know him as well as I do.
              I bet, as the pig says, that now it is better than most of you, this is not bragging, I can quickly disassemble and clean it up.
              It gave me pleasure to disassemble and clean the pistol, but my husband did not like it.
              These are now ultrasonic baths to clean the pistol, and then we did not know this. He told me about them: "Horse, ludwig." Silicone lubricants are all for lovers
    4. +6
      12 December 2021 14: 18
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Tuning, he really is not for everybody.

      I don’t know, I wouldn’t call it "tuning", so the circle "Crazy Hands", a la "Mercedes" from "Zaporozhets". Crafts, of course, are interesting from an aesthetic point of view, just like working products, but no more. We are waiting for PAK 75/70 based on P. 08 smile
      PS: Herbert Varle somehow reminded me of the Mad Hatter from the famous fairy tale.
    5. +5
      12 December 2021 14: 42
      Well I do not know...
      Tuning, he really is not for everybody.

      Igor, hello!))
      This, you know, for some purely perverted lover. Why do you need to disfigure a finished thing, probably only in order to show off. I can't think of anything myself, but I can easily disfigure what has already been done by other people. I found myself a niche with the same perverts as himself, so he rivets them for their needs and for themselves for dubious pleasure.
      You have to cut your hands for this!
      1. +4
        12 December 2021 18: 06
        Uncle Kostya has appeared! I am sincerely glad to read you !!!
        1. +4
          12 December 2021 18: 25
          Hello Vladislav!))
          I'm glad too. Yes You, please, go to "YOU", well, her, this officialdom, after all, your people. drinks
      2. +1
        13 December 2021 09: 38
        Good health, Constantine!
        Quote: Sea Cat
        This, you know, for some purely perverted lover. Why do you need to disfigure a finished thing, probably only in order to show off. I can't think of anything myself, but I can easily disfigure what has already been done by other people. I found myself a niche with the same perverts as himself, so he rivets them for their needs and for themselves for dubious pleasure.

        Perhaps so, more precisely - not without it, but, as it seems to me, the causes of the "illness" lie somewhat deeper. It reminded me of the so-called "ara-tuning" (may the Armenians forgive me), when a "keen auto mechanic" from Lada Priora does everything he can, here and stylized foreign cars, various convertibles, lowered suspension (sometimes pneumatic), exhaust pipes , almost from a fighter, various "beautiful" light bulbs and even crystal chandeliers in the cabin. Everything is explained simply, the availability of Prior, or in this case Parabellums (perhaps Herr Varle has his own ̶p̶a̶r̶n̶i̶k̶i̶ warehouses), knowledge of the design and the difficulty of bringing these samples into an inoperative state. Well, yes, even an irresistible passion for "invention", with insufficient qualifications, experience and often academic knowledge for the development of an original product. As the saying goes:
        "A good thing is not one to which there is nothing to add, but one from which there is nothing to take away."
        Therefore, both Parabellum and amusing Mr. Varle's handicrafts speak for themselves.
        1. +1
          13 December 2021 13: 07
          Have a nice one you too!))
          It reminded me of the so-called "ara-tuning"

          I agree - all this is a complete lack of taste and sense of proportion, you have already written about technical illiteracy.))
  2. +7
    12 December 2021 07: 55
    What Herbert Werle created by crossing Luger with AK is a useless chimera (not interesting). Now, if he attached a crank mechanism from a Luger working from a gas outlet to the AK, that would be funny.
  3. +9
    12 December 2021 08: 40
    Weapon vivisector! I cross Luger with the Tsar cannon, inexpensive ...
  4. +4
    12 December 2021 09: 01
    Werle is a decadent gunnery. Everything is very controversial.
    1. +7
      12 December 2021 13: 31
      Everyone knows how to criticize, is ready and does it with pleasure! And who can boast of at least such creativity? Niht fantastish! But this is not "self-indulgence" at all! After all, a similar idea led to the creation special tactical complexes (STK) .... allowing you to "turn" a pistol into a submachine gun (carbine)! For example, Roni G1 u pistol Glock 17 ...

      Glock 17 ...

      set STK ...

      Ready-to-eat product!
      1. +3
        12 December 2021 14: 45
        [/ quote] Everyone knows how to criticize, is ready and does it with pleasure! [quote]

        Yes, everyone can offend an artist, but is it really necessary to stop the exchange of opinions because of this? The weapon should be functional, and all sorts of design tricks are secondary, Verle's priorities are different, the functionality of the weapon is sacrificed to originality.
        1. +2
          12 December 2021 17: 50
          Quote: mr.ZinGer

          Yes, anyone can offend an artist, but is it really necessary to stop the exchange of opinions because of this?

          So I'm not completely surrendered! No.
  5. +2
    12 December 2021 10: 08
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, I won the bet!
    I said that the next one would be a fashion or a weapon, and really: the next material that I see is a pistol.
    We have different understandings of the order: you understand the order of writing, and I am publishing.
    1. +2
      12 December 2021 10: 16
      Quote: LisKat2
      We have different understandings of the order: you understand the order of writing, and I am publishing.

      You are lucky that it is not I who post articles on VO, but the editor. In turn, there is another material, but ... the rector chose this one. And so in the "zagashka" so many things - and fashion, and history, and weapons, and knights, and uniforms ... for every taste
      1. +2
        12 December 2021 13: 18
        Q. Oh, no need to "spoil the girl", she will be afraid to bet another time, but this is cool. Something lotorey
  6. +6
    12 December 2021 10: 19
    Unusually.
    The people were just fanatical about the alterations, and at the same time they sold.

    Hobby as a hobby, both professional and recognizable.
    Worthy.
  7. +4
    12 December 2021 10: 40
    Caption under the picture: "The Garand rifle, converted by Verle into a M1A sample with a sniper scope attached. Photo waffen-werle.de" So this is an M14 like ...
  8. +9
    12 December 2021 10: 41
    But on the other hand, it is very valuable to learn from history and revive it. John Martz in the USA, Nedbal in Vienna, Hakan Shpur in Sweden, Boddecker and Wagner, and many other gunsmiths followed this path. And Herbert Werle himself followed it, creating the "Baby Luger", "Luger Carbine", and a number of original samples based on the same pistol.

    In principle, it is quite a topic for an article, even for a series of articles. Custom weapons are a whole industry. Although often time and effort is spent on obvious nonsense, such as the Jesse James Firearms Unlimited Trump .45 pistol, where a lot of effort is spent purely on external tinsel.

    But there are craftsmen who not only make very high-quality copies, but also make serious technical changes to the design, which can significantly improve the performance of the weapon. The same John Martz, mentioned by the author, patented a mechanism for Luger 08 that allows you to remove the bolt from the slide delay with one finger, and not with two hands, as in the original design. Moreover, the MSTR mechanism ”(Martz Safe Toggle Release) is activated by a standard safety lever and externally pistols with such a mechanism do not differ from the original.
  9. +11
    12 December 2021 10: 42
    What have I not heard enough (!) ....: vivisector, decadent, chimera! Retrogrades! Ugh on these expressions! The Pedersen case lives on! What does Pedersen have to do with it? Duc, also John Pedersen (a designer who never publicly advertised his talents, but managed to obtain more than 79 patents in four decades of work. Before WW1, he developed most of the Remington Arms product line, including the Model 51 pistol and Model 12 rifle ... ) in 1917 he proposed a "hybrid" bolt-action with a semiautomatic machine! Pedersen device! In general, John our Pedersen invited a group of officers and congressmen to the training ground for a presentation (demonstration) ...
    Pedersen approached the demonstration as if it were a performance. Presenting himself to a perplexed commission with a five-shooter Springfield M1903, he fired several shots, removed the bolt from the rifle and put it in his bag. Then the designer quickly took out a certain device from the case on his belt, inserted it in place of the bolt, clicked on a long black magazine for 40 rounds, and after a couple of moments opened fire. Pedersen pressed on the trigger of the rifle as fast as he could, and each time she fired, threw out the case and reloaded.

    "Original" ,, bolt ,, Springfield ...

    "Redesigned" pistol ("automatic shutter" ... aka Springfield device)

    Springfield's "hybrids" with Pedersen's device ...
    So even before Verle, pistols were thrown into the "long-barreled"!
    1. +4
      12 December 2021 15: 25
      Volodya, hello! ))
      I would break my hands with these homemade ones! I remember how in the nineties trophy cars were disfigured to please those suffering from bad taste with fools. Nightmare!
      About the same as in the photo.
    2. 0
      12 December 2021 20: 39
      And if escho take a carbine based on the Springfield rifle and Pedersen's device (converted pistol) with automatic fire mode, you would get a submachine gun with the ability to "return" the carbine with a rifle cartridge!
  10. +4
    12 December 2021 12: 23
    Thanks for the stuff!
    It is interesting to read.
    It is even more interesting to watch the "hack" of the shooters later.
    I'll stand on the sidelines myself, so as not to get hurt fellow
  11. +5
    12 December 2021 12: 45
    The author described quite a few parabellum-like pistols, he already remembered this weapon vivisector, but not a word about Rakov's pistol.
    1. +5
      12 December 2021 13: 44
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      but not a word about Rakov's pistol.

      Tady already immediately and the pistols of Voevodin, Tokarev to be dragged into the page ... tongue All the same, they meet with one "choh"! winked


      1. +2
        12 December 2021 13: 58
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        Tady already immediately and pistols Voevodin, Tokarev

        Rakov won that competition.
        1. +1
          12 December 2021 20: 14
          Who cares ? The article is about "Luger-like" ...! There are quite a few of them ... here, for example, Nikolaev's escho and pistol!
          1. 0
            13 December 2021 04: 51
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            Who cares ? The article is about "luger-like"

            That's just what it is that about the domestic luger-like NOT a WORD from the author.
    2. +3
      12 December 2021 14: 04
      Find me his photos, similar in quality to those used in my articles, and not a carbon copy from the book - and I will write ... I have a certain format of materials and I do not intend to deviate from it.
      1. 0
        12 December 2021 14: 28
        Quote: kalibr
        and not a carbon copy from a book - and I will write

        Carbon copies from old Soviet magazines "a certain format" does not interfere with the use.
        Write without illustrations.
        1. +2
          12 December 2021 16: 13
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Write without illustrations.

          And where am I going to put him? Why do I need material that can be used only once and only here? You do not mind my work, I understand. But I feel sorry for both my work and my time.
          1. 0
            12 December 2021 16: 26
            Quote: kalibr
            And where am I going to put him?
            Once again, you
            Carbon copies from old Soviet magazines do not prevent you from scribbling articles about tanks at all.
            Quote: kalibr
            Why do I need material that can be used only once and only here?
            Well, an article about Rakov's pistol will be much more original than translations with "high-quality pictures".

            Quote: kalibr
            You do not mind my work, I understand. But I feel sorry for both my work and my time.
            Just write that you have nowhere to "artistically rewrite" about this pistol.
            1. +3
              12 December 2021 17: 20
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Well, an article about Rakov's pistol will be much more original than translations with "high-quality pictures".

              Who told you that?
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Just write that you have nowhere to "artistically rewrite" about this pistol.

              Exactly! But tell me where can I get the original text to rewrite it even more original? From old Soviet magazines? I don’t know of those. And I'm not interested in rewriting our texts. There is a lot of work, but little novelty. Why work hard when you can do little? The money is the same!
              1. 0
                12 December 2021 17: 31
                Quote: kalibr
                But tell me where can I get the original text to rewrite it even more original?

                And as you wanted, independent work on weapons and equipment requires both work and intelligence.
                Quote: kalibr
                The money is the same!
                I can't argue here.
                1. +3
                  12 December 2021 17: 38
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  And as you wanted, independent work on weapons and equipment requires both work and intelligence.

                  First of all, they demand MONEY! Sponsor my trip to Tula or St. Petersburg, or go there yourself. There, in museums (which I will tell you), explain that you want to write interestingly about these pistols. You will be allowed into the storage facilities (or not allowed) and then look at them, disassemble them, get acquainted with the documents on the tests. Then you (or I - any whim for someone else's money!) Write / write about these pistols. Then ... You / I will be paid a fee ... Believe me, it will not recoup your expenses in the least. And if so, then ... I am sure that you will not be the first to get involved with this. And with all his intelligence, their author will be in a deep ass. I personally don't want to go there. I'm smart enough for that.
                  1. -1
                    13 December 2021 05: 01
                    Quote: kalibr
                    First of all, they demand MONEY!

                    Would you like to write that all your articles about pistols and tanks required at least some of your financial investments, except maybe a long-standing purchase of books? Let me not believe it.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    You will be allowed into the storage facilities (or not allowed) and then look at them, disassemble them, get acquainted with the documents on the tests.

                    This is what you mean now that in search of materials for articles about pistols, you personally visited museums and scanned illustrations? Funny.
                    There is nothing wrong with literary translation, but pretending that this is the result of your research is undignified. And the fact that you never mentioned the most famous of domestic luger-like pistols, not to mention the mass of others, is an indicator.
                    1. 0
                      13 December 2021 06: 52
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Would you like to write that all your articles about pistols and tanks required at least some of your financial investments, except maybe a long-standing purchase of books?

                      That's exactly what was not demanded! But you need original materials!
                    2. 0
                      13 December 2021 07: 02
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      but to pretend that this is the result of your research is undignified.

                      And where do I pretend to be? Where I held the weapon in my hands and photographed it myself, it is written - the author's photo. In all other cases, it is indicated to whom the photo belongs and that says it all. What else?
            2. +4
              12 December 2021 17: 22
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Carbon copies from old Soviet magazines do not prevent you from scribbling articles about tanks at all.

              There I have an artist who will always draw these tanks for me!
              1. -1
                12 December 2021 17: 34
                Quote: kalibr
                There I have an artist who will always draw these tanks for me!

                Who draws so lousy?

                But what about your "certain format of materials"? Yes, and it does not seem that this is "your" artist, more like a picture from the Internet. But this is not a reproach for quality, it is an allusion to "double standards".
                1. +3
                  12 December 2021 18: 17
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  But what about your "certain format of materials"? Yes, and it does not seem that this is "your" artist, more like a picture from the Internet. But this is not a reproach for quality, it is an allusion to "double standards".

                  Each of my materials indicates which drawings were made by which artist. Under each drawing is written ... a drawing by I.F. or "all color drawings are done ...". The picture that you found is taken from the application materials transferred at one time to the appropriate organization. Since it is over 70 years old, it has passed into public ownership and it is not necessary to indicate who made it. Why didn't you know this? And it is valuable just for its primitive performance. Shows that it was so. So leave your hints of double and triple standards to yourself, okay? And before writing a comment, at least read the signature under this or that picture.
                  1. -1
                    13 December 2021 05: 03
                    Quote: kalibr
                    The picture that you found is taken from the application materials transferred at one time to the appropriate organization.
                    So this is not the only such picture, I will not insert all the pictures from your article into the commentary and compare their quality and style, which are completely different by the way.
                    In general, your "artist" is an excuse.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    There I have an artist who will always draw these tanks for me!
                    1. 0
                      13 December 2021 06: 51
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      I won't add all the pictures from your article to the comment

                      Why not do it? You are a lover of such things!
                      1. -1
                        13 December 2021 08: 24
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Why not do it? You are a lover of such things!

                        Well, there is a simpler way out:
                        https://topwar.ru/189468-nash-tankovyj-panoptikum-tanki-zhirafy.html
                        Breakthrough of different pictures of different authors and different quality.
  12. +5
    12 December 2021 13: 10
    Q. Oh, you are, of course, a hardworking person and there are many interesting things "on the dig," but that "Lugerman", that Verle have an indirect relationship to Luger (Borchard).
    They have no distinctive flavor.
    And I'm interested in reading about the Original, I was "spoiled" by Shpak. So what is it about him
    1. +5
      12 December 2021 14: 06
      Quote: vladcub
      They have no distinctive flavor.

      But there is a kind of charm. "Who likes the pop, who is the priest, who is the priest's daughter ..." and further in the text ...
      1. +3
        12 December 2021 14: 53
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, I have already said that Vladkuba will be interested there, first of all, priest, and priest and devil in extreme cases
    2. +3
      12 December 2021 16: 11
      Quote: vladcub
      Of course you are a hardworking person

      Well, thanks, Svyatoslav. Moved to the core!
  13. +5
    12 December 2021 14: 13
    I was quite surprised when I "heard" that Werle was "creating" "Baby Luger"! As far as I knew ... "Baby Luger" appeared without Werle's participation!


    1. +3
      12 December 2021 16: 14
      There were so many of them ... "Baby". Everyone has their own ...
      1. 0
        12 December 2021 22: 55
        Maybe ... But here are the images ...
        Baby Luger Werle ... ("Attributed" to Werle ...)

        Baby Luger Marza

        Well, point out the difference ...
        1. 0
          13 December 2021 07: 06
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Well, point out the difference ...

          Yeah...
  14. +1
    12 December 2021 14: 49
    Colleagues, good afternoon. Vyacheslav Olegovich invited me to come here, so I do. Although the topics are not very close to me.
    1. +6
      12 December 2021 16: 16
      But soon you will soon find materials on fashion, about uniforms, medieval pants ... In a word, it will be interesting for you. And others are planned. Material is being collected, texts are being written ...
    2. 0
      12 December 2021 19: 59
      Should I think about it first, no?
      1. 0
        13 December 2021 07: 08
        Quote: Phil77
        Is it worth thinking first then?

        What is Sergey about? When, what to write depends on the answer from the next museum and on the mood!
        1. 0
          13 December 2021 15: 39
          Hope you have a creative mood.
          1. +1
            13 December 2021 16: 59
            Quote: Astra wild2
            Hope you have a creative mood.

            I have it always creative. But today he pulls for rifles, tomorrow for pistols, and rarely pulls for clothes ...
  15. +2
    12 December 2021 16: 43
    Quote: kalibr
    But soon you will soon find materials on fashion, about uniforms, medieval pants ... In a word, it will be interesting for you. And others are planned. Material is being collected, texts are being written ...

    Look forward to!
  16. +2
    12 December 2021 17: 58
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: vladcub
    Of course you are a hardworking person

    Well, thanks, Svyatoslav. Moved to the core!

    Not at all. He said there is. Lodar won't be able to do that much
  17. +2
    12 December 2021 19: 48
    Here on this she drew attention:
    At the same time he organized a small workshop privately, and in 1993 he opened a shop in Dudenhofen: "Hunting weapons, pistols, revolvers, sporting rifles, repair and sale".

    This is how a person easily opened his own business, fulfilled all the relying requirements, and did not come to him demanding a share, kickbacks, etc.
    1. -1
      12 December 2021 19: 57
      I just love! love
    2. +1
      13 December 2021 07: 09
      Quote: depressant
      This is how a person easily opened his own business, fulfilled all the relying requirements, and did not come to him demanding a share, kickbacks, etc.

      This is the difference between a CIVILIZED COUNTRY and a UNCIVILIZED COUNTRY today. Missiles and toilet paper are not considered.
      1. +2
        13 December 2021 09: 42
        Vyacheslav Olegovich ...
        Having noted your remark, I walked around the bush for a long time, thinking how to answer you. And the main thing in your comment seemed to me to be the word "today". The hero of your story lived in an era of stormy, explosive industrialization of capitalism. And now the era of post-industrialization is coming, when the accumulated wealth of a handful of people is already so great that they only need one thing - complete, absolute power over the whole world. And for this they, in particular, do not need competitors-nouveau riche. Including - small and medium-sized businesses, from which, due to activities in garages and small rooms, these very nouveau riches and grow. The golden age of industrialization will slowly but surely decline, and creators such as Verlet will be unclaimed. A handful of the rich will put everything talented at their service. And then everything will end with cyberpunk - an industrialized monarchy. Funny? Not good.
        1. +4
          13 December 2021 10: 24
          Quote: depressant
          and such creators as Verle will be unclaimed.

          The conclusion is incorrect! As production becomes robotized, creators like Verle will be in demand more than ever before. Everything done by hand will become a symbol of prestige !!! There will be a lot of free time and people will again start sewing and knitting, sculpting and burning pots, and forging knives. And the elite will only propagandize this in order to bring down social tensions. This is shown very well in the novel by Kurt Vonnegut: "Utopia 14."
          1. +2
            13 December 2021 10: 52
            As Vladimir Polyakov said,
            dreams exist for this,
            so that we are not bored to sleep wassat )))
  18. +1
    12 December 2021 19: 54
    Astra wild2 (Mom's joy), and the PSM cartridge case is not one of those legendary cartridges when the operatives of the UR of the Oktyabrsky District Department of Internal Affairs, only transferred to the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Estonian SSR (I think, the end of 1988) stomped into the building on the street. Pikk and heard a female squeak in the driveway? Looks in, there are three girls trying to undress. He introduced himself, two of them flooded him with a drill, PSM was holding a toy in his hand, the first was warning, the second - at the nearest to him, aimed at his legs. As the conclusion of the court-med. expert, the damage to the scrotum did not entail harm to the health of the citizen and is not an obstacle to being kept in the SIZO. A lot of blood leaked at once, and two accomplices were sobered at once, fell to the ground right there. And the howl of the wounded man attracted the attention of the minbat patrol, then conscripts from the Estonian SSR and the BSSR were on patrol in the Old City.
  19. +3
    12 December 2021 20: 37
    Dear pistol experts!
    Can anyone logically explain why on pistols of the 16-17 centuries the handle is practically not bent from the axis of the barrel bore. The angle of inclination of the handle to the barrel gradually increased in the course of evolution and reached its current average values ​​only in the first third of the 20th century?
    After all, in order to hold the "ancient" pistol, one has to turn the brush very strongly and it is not visible that the masters were trying to fix it, although the level of technology of the 16-17th century quite allowed it. Why is that?
    1. +3
      12 December 2021 21: 05
      Everything is quite simple, weapons of the 16th - 17th centuries were usually single-shot, so it didn't matter where the aiming line would go after a shot (and it was much more convenient to wave a long heavy stick after a shot). With the advent of the multiply charged model (the first revolvers), the situation changed dramatically. In pistols, the Colt 1911 became the benchmark at one time. hi
      1. +3
        12 December 2021 21: 11
        But after all, weapons (pistols), for example, the 18th and first half of the 19th centuries, are also single-shot, but the handle is bent much more than on pistols 200 years earlier ...
        Waving a straight club, I agree, is much more convenient good
        But, there is something else here.
        It's a pity there is no time machine winked
        1. +3
          12 December 2021 21: 16
          The way gunpowder is ignited has changed. The wicks were replaced by completely different locks ... it is long and tedious to list all the changes. I can say one thing, with the transition to a unitary cartridge - the appearance of modern pistols appeared.
          1. +2
            12 December 2021 21: 24
            I agree.
            "Ancient" wick and wheel pistols, as a rule.
            But was it really so constructively influenced? And outweighed the comfort of the grip?
            After all, the recoil of the shot and the twisted brush can break ...
    2. +2
      12 December 2021 21: 36
      I haven’t heard of such research ... And if we assume that the bend of the pistol handle is similar to the bend of the handle of a saber or broadsword? YesAnd so on the early pistols, it does not bend at all ...
      1. +3
        12 December 2021 21: 41
        Such a version is also possible ... the short-barrel was often combined with a cold one. And the long barrel - after the shot, he himself became it.
      2. +1
        12 December 2021 21: 43
        Let's say ...
        Did the bend of the handle of cold steel weapons change greatly over the centuries? In my opinion, no.
        And in the case of a firearm, it is strikingly striking.
        1. +3
          12 December 2021 21: 51
          This is nothing more than an addition to the "main" version, and, in my opinion, deserves attention ... as one of many other minor factors (for example, shooting with plate gloves, etc.).
          But, once again - the main one has already been sounded above! hi
        2. +1
          12 December 2021 22: 10
          Nevertheless, it changed ... More precisely, not the bend of the handle, but the angle at which the handle was located relative to the blade. It is noticeably different for the checker of the 1927 model and earlier samples ... Perhaps, an example is out of place - the "pistol" grip of a sports foil (or a sword?).
    3. +2
      12 December 2021 22: 18
      Can anyone logically explain why on pistols of the 16-17 centuries the handle is practically not bent from the axis of the barrel bore. The angle of inclination of the handle to the barrel gradually increased in the course of evolution and reached its current average values ​​only in the first third of the 20th century?

      You are mistaken about the XVI, and especially in the XVII century.

      Flintlock pistol of the XNUMXth century.
      The first pistols were, in fact, reduced match muskets, respectively, had a similar shape. Moreover, a wick lock is not suitable for a curved handle. As soon as the wheel lock appeared and the pistol became a mass weapon, its ergonomics began to change, the handle began to bend accordingly. This is the second half of the XNUMXth century.
      1. +3
        12 December 2021 22: 31
        Hello Undecim!
        So the wick lock puts such a limitation on the bend, right?
        Interestingly, I will look at its design in more detail.
        The photo you posted is interesting. The pistol looks like a "guest from the future" for the 17th century, probably, it was high-tech then.
        1. +2
          12 December 2021 22: 40
          Hello. This is by no means hi-tech.

          French officer pistol. XVII century.
  20. +3
    12 December 2021 21: 47
    Quote: Hunter 2
    Such a version is also possible ... the short-barrel was often combined with a cold one. And the long barrel - after the shot, he himself became it.

    It looks like it's hot good
    Indeed, if you understand for sure that after the shot you need "armature" for the cold, then a straight "kalabashka" is better.
  21. +3
    12 December 2021 22: 16
    Quote: saygon66
    Nevertheless, it changed ... More precisely, not the bend of the handle, but the angle at which the handle was located relative to the blade. It is noticeably different for the checker of the 1927 model and earlier samples ... Perhaps, an example is out of place - the "pistol" grip of a sports foil (or a sword?).

    So be it. This will already be a slightly different topic - edged weapons.
    And I got caught on the pistols what
    1. +2
      12 December 2021 23: 16
      The angle of inclination of the handle of firearms is changing to this day ... From the handles FG42, P08, MG 34 and MG 42, to modern handles, which have an angle relative to the receiver of almost 90 degrees.
  22. +3
    12 December 2021 22: 47
    Quote: Undecim
    Hello. This is by no means hi-tech.

    French officer pistol. XVII century.

    Yeah. And there, and there, a flint lock ... This is already progress and the handle is quite "progressive".
    I didn't have to hold it in my hands. And you? Are the brushes comfortable?
    1. +2
      13 December 2021 07: 19
      Quote: CHEREDA73
      I didn't have to hold it in my hands. And you? Are the brushes comfortable?

      I had to. French cavalry pistol IV, English dueling pistol and another wheeled pistol from the 16th century. The "Frenchman" had such a chubby handle that it was uncomfortable for me to hold it, it was too thick. It is designed for some long-peeled person. The Englishman lay like a glove. Wheeled demanded to strongly bend the hand forward, the muscles were not accustomed to this, and after a couple of aimings the hand "said" - hard. But apparently this is a matter of habit.
  23. +3
    12 December 2021 23: 44
    Thanks to everyone who responded.
    Your answers, plus the corresponding videos and pictures on the network, clarified a question that was not clear to me.
    1. +2
      13 December 2021 07: 20
      Quote: CHEREDA73
      Your answers, plus the corresponding videos and pictures on the network, clarified a question that was not clear to me.

      Fate itself helps the daring!
      1. +3
        13 December 2021 09: 31
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you.
  24. +1
    13 December 2021 11: 02
    Hunter 2 (Alexey), dear, I will ask you as a professional. How do you envision the HP 22-gauge leadless lead bullet on the hunt? I already asked on the site, but did not receive an answer. I inherited the book "Hunting weapons and ammunition", there is a drawing of such a cartridge. Here, except for shooting at marmots, prairie dogs and in the head of a mow on the current - I do not see the use of such cartridges, and drift in the wind, and the steepness of the trajectory and HP. Especially considering that the book was published at the beginning of the 20th century, and then hunters did not put optics on rifles in 22 caliber.
  25. +1
    13 December 2021 11: 26
    CHEREDA73 (Eugene), dear, the convenience of holding a weapon depends on the size of the weapon (I include in this concept and the size of the handle), your size, your clothes and training. Kote pane Kohanka (Vladislav) wrote: "PSM is not for my paw." For me, too, PSM is not very good, it was somehow not very comfortable in my hand. Although I am quite average: height 180, I wear size 50. It is clear that in assault gloves with clipped fingers in the summer, the grip of a pistol will differ from shooting in winter leather gloves with rabbit fur inside, when it is 23 outside and the breeze from the sea is 5-10 m / s.
  26. +1
    13 December 2021 13: 37
    As an engineer and a foreman - praise and glory! Like a soulless barbarian who mocked a pistol and a machine gun -...
    Feed and shoot!))))))
  27. 0
    13 December 2021 19: 24
    The man's hands are golden, but with his head ...