Military Review

Do we need such ships at sea?

160
Do we need such ships at sea?
Photo: Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation


A very peculiar, I would say, a twofold situation has developed. On the one hand, the patrol ship of project 22160 "Sergei Kotov" went to sea for testing - this is, given our position with the ships, a very joyful event. Moreover, the "Sergei Kotov" is the fourth ship in the series, which replenishes the ranks of the Black Sea fleet Russia.

The Black Sea Fleet already has three project colleagues: Vasily Bykov, Dmitry Rogachev and Pavel Derzhavin.


By the end of the year, "Sergei Kotov" will undergo scheduled tests, after which the ship will officially enter the ranks of the Black Sea Fleet.

It's good? Partly. The bad thing about this news the fact that "Sergei Kotov", how to put it mildly ... a defective ship.

No, as just a patrol ship, whose tasks include the usual patrolling of the water area, the project 22160 ship is quite good. Especially those ships with domestic Kolomna diesel engines. Maybe not as fast as under the German MTU, but it is reliable and maintainable.

In general, patrolling territorial waters, a 200-mile economic zone, in both open and closed seas. Suppression of the activities of pirates and smugglers, escorting ships and vessels, if necessary, the protection of naval bases and water areas, intelligence activities. This is in peacetime.

In wartime, the value of corvettes drops sharply. The initial set of weapons on ships is more than modest. One 76,2 mm AK-176MA artillery mount (side-by-side 304 rounds) and two 14,5-mm machine guns in the MTPU "Sting" mounts. Plus there are also 12,7 mm grenade launchers and machine guns.

The missile armament of the corvette consists of eight Igla-S or Verba MANPADS. That is, a little more than nothing. In principle, with the help of cannon artillery and MANPADS, the corvette can turn out to be a dangerous enemy for a pair of helicopters. But nothing more. In order to become a more serious ship, you need more serious weapons. But he is not.

There is a positive point: the ships are equipped with the "Positive-MK" radar system, of which we can only say that it is a very progressive system with great capabilities. And the operating range of up to 300 km seems to hint that the ships with the "Positive-MK" are worthy of more in terms of armament.

But if we talk about something more serious than grinding salt water with screws - here corvettes do not look very serious yet.

Yes, the ships are listed in the project as the first modular ships in Russia. That is, in principle, the project 22160 corvettes can be retrofitted with any weapon in theory that will be placed in container installations.


Photo: Artyom Balabin / balabin-1712.livejournal.com

It was due to the modules that it was planned to equip ships with various shock systems. Strike missile, anti-submarine, air defense systems and so on. You can fantasize endlessly.
However, things are not as simple as we would like.

A combat information and control system was to be installed on the ships, which would be capable of controlling all modular systems that would be installed on the ship. You must admit that the control of tactical cruise missiles and countering submarines require different equipment and different methods of information processing.

And modules were to be developed simultaneously with BIUS. And then the picture would be simply magnificent: the ship has an excellent operating system, modules that can be changed depending on the requirements of the moment, and the system will perfectly manage the modules in any situation.

Everything is good, except for execution.

However, here it is worth looking at the ancestors. The Americans. It was in the USA that the first projects of such ships were developed, and it was in the USA that our (and not only ours, to be honest) admirals were fascinated by the concept of modular ships.

In the USA, two lines of coastal modular ships were developed at once, the Freedom and the Independence. Ships Littoral combat ship (LCS) is an interesting development, but, alas, not devoid of drawbacks, the main one of which was problems with propulsion systems.


However, there were two more problems that the Americans could not solve and eventually abandoned the construction of littoral ships in large numbers. Indeed, the $ 500 million cost WITHOUT modules is overkill.

And the modules in the USA ... were not completed either. They re-equipped the ships so that they could at least fight off the aircraft in close combat, and that's all. It is not for nothing that in the American navy the Littoral combat ship is voiced as Little Crappy Ship.

It is worth noting here that our project 22160 corvettes differ very favorably from American littoral ships precisely in terms of seaworthiness. In general, if corvettes have advantages, then it is just good seaworthiness, decent speed and more than sufficient cruising range. 25 knots at full speed and 6000 miles at 16 knots - this, of course, is not like the American ships, but our corvettes develop these figures and reach without fatal breakdowns, like the American littorals.

So Russian modular corvettes are still quite decent coastal patrol ships. The combat capabilities with the weapons on board are, of course, minimal. Anti-terrorist operations and actions against smugglers and nothing more.


Photo: Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

It is worth remembering that project 22160 began to be developed at the beginning of the XNUMXs, when everything was not so clear with the American littorals. They were just being built, and then it was too early to draw conclusions about how successful the ships were and whether modular aspirations would be economically justified.

At first everything seemed very interesting with the modules. Indeed, it looked very progressive: missile launchers, sonar equipment, premises for the squadron headquarters, a hospital - the ship could acquire any configuration depending on the requirements of the moment.

There was only a moment at which for each ship it was necessary to have several crews, for each set of modules.

Many countries have followed this path. The Americans, of course, became the first, and then it turned out that everything is not as great as we would like in terms of modularity.

It turned out that ships plus modules are much more expensive than just normal ships. Plus, the change of modules, which some thought was something like changing SIM cards, turned out to be a somewhat longer process than the 48 hours declared in the project. It turned out that changing the module on the "Freedom" can take up to a month. It is not easy to take out one container and insert another in its place. Reconnecting communications, adjusting and setting up equipment - all this may require many times more time.

The result was the recognition of the Americans in 2016 that all littorals will be completed in different configurations, without regard to modularity.

All the planned twenty-four ships, including those that will only be built, will be divided into six divisions. Three divisions for the Independence class and the same for the Freedom class. Each division will be equipped with its own types of modules - anti-mine, anti-submarine and module for fighting boats and boats.

Ships in divisions will work out exclusively their tasks, for which they are oriented. There will be no replacement crews.

This is how the modular program in the United States died. And what about Russia?

In Russia, everything is about the same. There are modular ships, but no modules. More precisely, there are a couple of exhibition samples that are shown at various exhibitions.

However, we also found out that building a full-fledged ship is much cheaper than a modular one and modules for it. But the main thing is that it is inevitably increasing not only financial costs, but also the human factor. The modules will need to be serviced, this will require teams of specialists, which will also entail additional expenses.

But, it should be said that adequate solutions have not yet been found in any country. There is an opinion that it is still easier to build ships and equip them, and then purchase additional equipment for them.

The result is a very peculiar situation: there are ships, but there are no additional equipment in the form of modules for them, and as it becomes clear, it is not expected.

It is clear that all this did not come out of a good life for us. It was necessary to somehow compensate for the lack of new ships in the fleets. Moreover, the American idea gave hope for the emergence of universal and inexpensive ships.

As a result, we have four ships, which are patrol ships with no chance of becoming universal corvettes. And there will be six of them in total. Six ships with a decent displacement for this class, allowing to accommodate more serious weapons than the original.

And with domestic power plants, which is also very good. After all, only the first ship of the series was made with German diesel engines, the rest are and will be with Russian ones. This is a very positive point.

It turns out that new ships in an amicable way, immediately after testing, should be sent to factories and re-equipped there. Perhaps this is not the best scenario, but it may turn out to be the only one.

If you look at the displacement of the ships of Project 22160 (1800 tons total) against, say, small anti-submarine ships of the 1124M Albatross type (1080 tons total) and compare the amount of weapons on the ships, then obviously the Albatrosses are more armed.

That is, the ships of the project 22160 have where and how to install rockets, sonar stations and other useful things. You just need to modify the ships and at the exit get, albeit spending time and money, quite decent corvettes, capable of operating far from the coast.

This is better than holding on to this modular idea, which has not played even in more advanced shipbuilding countries.

In general, we really need new ships at sea. Capable of performing a variety of combat missions. And the presence of new ships with a displacement like a corvette, but armed with an anti-sabotage boat - we simply cannot afford this.
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 25 November 2021 05: 46
    +18
    In principle, with the help of cannon artillery and MANPADS, the corvette can turn out to be a dangerous enemy for a pair of helicopters.
    Only if they bomb from helicopters, a la the 40s.
    1. Non-fighter
      Non-fighter 25 November 2021 09: 37
      +2
      I remember there was an episode in "Desert Storm 1" when English helicopters carried EVERYTHING that was trying to escape to Iran.
    2. Thrifty
      Thrifty 25 November 2021 11: 58
      +4
      All these 15-day rickets have a place in the Sea of ​​Azov, at most, to drive the Ukrainian fleet, and for other other purposes REAL corvettes, frigates and destroyers are needed, and not this "little thing" !!!
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 25 November 2021 14: 23
        +9
        Quote: Thrifty
        All these 15-day rickets have a place in the Sea of ​​Azov,
        Are you talking about autonomy, or what? So he has it for 60 (!) Days - more than 11356 and 22350 will ...
        And it is declared (mind you!) As a PATROL ship ... not a battleship or a cruiser, and not even a frigate with a corvette, but as a patrol ship! You are not asking the curfew patrol why he is only with a pistol, and not in full combat gear with a small sapper shovel on his side and a steel helmet on his chest along with unloading!
        So what complaints can there be about the PATROL ship, without even reading the possible options for its re-equipment for wartime. This is, at least, dishonest (cheating!): To make demands on the ship that were not envisaged by its design.
        And the second thing. If the military-technical commission under the president came to the conclusion that it is necessary to build 6 units. PK pr 22160, then it probably proceeded from the totality of data on the situation, the country's security requirements, the requests of the Navy, and further prospects. The author also understands this:
        No, as just a patrol ship, whose tasks include the usual patrolling of the water area, the project 22160 ship is quite good. Especially those ships with domestic Kolomna diesel engines.
        Here the phrase from "Ivan Vasilyevich ..." suggests itself: -
        1. Thrifty
          Thrifty 25 November 2021 14: 31
          -2
          The boa constrictor KAA fleet as such does not exist! First of all, oceanic, there are no destroyers at all! And I do not favor all these karaukurtobuyans because of their small water supply, weak weapons, and too "highly specialized"! These are not warships, this is money down the drain! ...
          1. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 25 November 2021 14: 40
            0
            Quote: Thrifty
            - there is no fleet as such! First of all, ocean,

            In some ways you are right ... And one cannot but agree with this: it would be dishonest.
            At the same time, many politicians and the military believe that at the meeting in the fall of 2021. in Bocharov Ruchei, when VVP held a meeting with the military and representatives of the military-industrial complex on aviation and the Navy, the results were summed up under the creation of the Navy's forces in the near sea zone and the same tasks were set for the construction of the FLEET DMZ (far ocean zone). Therefore, we will see what will follow the meeting next. yes
            1. Very kind
              Very kind 25 November 2021 15: 03
              -2
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              the result was summed up under the creation of the naval forces of the near sea zone and the same tasks were set for the construction of the DMZ FLEET

              GDP is just ...whether
              numbers
              for which RUST which is kept on the surface only by the exorbitant efforts of the crews
            2. Revival
              Revival 25 November 2021 15: 36
              0
              Overfulfillment, in strict accordance with the overfulfillment of the May decrees
          2. Vadim237
            Vadim237 25 November 2021 16: 33
            .
            And why the hell do you need destroyers - in the era of long-range supersonic Onyx 800 kilometers Zircon - 1000 or more kilometers now corvettes and frigates for the eyes will be enough to keep the enemy in tension having such a weapon and this ship in the article can be equipped with modules with Caliber missiles - build huge warships there is no longer any sense in expensive construction and costly in terms of maintenance. And Russia in the open ocean at long distances will not fight closely with anyone, we will have one doctrine of protecting our maritime borders, and for a large surface fleet and its ability to operate in remote areas of the world ocean, naval bases around the world are needed - alas, we have almost there is not and will not be even in the distant future.
        2. Very kind
          Very kind 25 November 2021 15: 02
          0
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          So what can be the claims to the PATROL ship,

          WHAT HE IS KHRENOVO SOLVES ITS OWN PATROL TASKS
          VERY KHRENOVO
          why - has already been said many times
        3. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 November 2021 15: 46
          +14
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          And it is declared (mind you!) As a PATROL ship ... not a battleship or a cruiser, and not even a frigate with a corvette, but as a patrol ship! You are not asking the curfew patrol why he is only with a pistol, and not in full combat gear with a small sapper shovel on his side and a steel helmet on his chest along with unloading!
          So what complaints can there be about the PATROL ship, without even reading the possible options for its re-equipment for wartime. This is, at least, dishonest (cheating!): To make demands on the ship that were not envisaged by its design.

          The problem is that the tasks of the patrol ship of the Navy assigned to Project 22160 for the most part do not apply to the Navy. These are the tasks of the FSB border patrol ship, which he was before Chirkov for some reason ordered it for the Navy.
          See for yourself:
          Overall, patrolling territorial waters, a 200-mile economic zone, both in open and closed seas. Suppression of the activities of pirates and smugglers, escort of ships and vessels, if necessary, protection of naval bases and water areas, reconnaissance activities. This is in peacetime.

          Highlighted in bold - these are the tasks of the SOBR, which, according to the law, is performed only by it.
          But pr. 22160, which is not highlighted in bold, can do it with a big creak. What kind of protection of the naval base and the OVR can be said in relation to a ship that does not have a GAS PLO (only anti-sabotage with extremely limited capabilities) and does not have any means of PLO at all (there are no means to support the basing of an anti-submarine helicopter on board)? I'm not talking about air defense pr. 22160 - a cannon and MANPADS.

          In fact, the project 22160 can perform well those tasks that are not within the competence of the Navy, and very mediocre ones that are precisely included in the scope of the Navy's tasks. This is the main complaint about the project.
          1. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 25 November 2021 16: 30
            -7
            Quote: Alexey RA
            These are the tasks of the FSB border patrol ship, which he was before Chirkov for some reason ordered it for the Navy.

            1. This is so. But then it would be necessary to RUN in full MORNAGE of the border troops. I believe this is not yet included in the plans for the development of naval weapons.
            2. The ships are being built at the Shipyard (4 at Zelenodolsk and 2 at the Shipyard Priliv (Kerch)), which were in dire need of orders. The working class (especially the Crimea!) Needs to be fed so that it does not die out, does not declassify as a huckster.
            3. They are KNS. Their operating area is Mediterranean. You won't send the PSKR there ...
            What kind of protection of the naval base and the OVR can we talk about in relation to a ship that does not have a GAS PLO ... and does not have any PLO equipment at all (there is no means of supporting the basing of an anti-submarine helicopter on board)? I'm not talking about air defense pr. 22160 - a cannon and MANPADS.

            1. It has a 2 x 40-foot installation. container. What prevents to install in one GPBA, and in the second - the equipment of the SJSC? I don’t know, but maybe when upgrading
            Project 22160 PC will be equipped with hydroacoustic systems developed by Concern Okeanpribor JSC. The corvettes will be armed with 3 hydroacoustic complexes for various purposes at once: low-frequency active-passive GAS "Vignette-EM" for detecting noise-emitting sources (submarine, surface ship) in the first and second distant zones of acoustic illumination (35-140 km), GAK MGK- 335EM-03 for detecting underwater targets in the near zone of acoustic illumination (3-5 km, also 5-12 km) with the establishment of hydroacoustic and telecode communication in order to identify or warn the crew of the detected object, GAS "Pallada" to detect underwater swimmers-saboteurs in close proximity to the ship (up to 0,5 km)

            2. The installation of the Shtil-1 modules on it could solve the air defense tasks
            Optionally, the ships' air defense can be represented by the 12-channel Shtil-1 anti-aircraft missile system with 24 9M317E missiles. The complex does not have its own radar, it receives information about the target from the three-coordinate radar of the ship. The fire control system includes radio transmitters for target illumination, a computer complex, optical-electronic sighting devices, and a control and information display system. The control system is mounted in the superstructures of the ship and allows you to fire in any azimuth directions

            3. The protection of the naval base from the underwater enemy, in theory, should be stationary coastal. "Harmony" seemed to be planned to go into operation ... Plus PLO aircraft, turntables with VGS-3 and AT-2 ...
            But, apparently, something went wrong. And project 22160 has already been launched. So we have what we have.
            I'm not happy with him either. But instead of killing yourself and stigmatizing everyone, maybe it's better to see what you can do to get out of the dupa?
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 25 November 2021 16: 40
              +5
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              2. The ships are being built at the Shipyard (4 at Zelenodolsk and 2 at the Shipyard Priliv (Kerch)), which were in dire need of orders. The working class (especially the Crimea!) Needs to be fed so that it does not die out, does not declassify as a huckster.

              You know my point of view - instead of 22160 it was necessary to order PLO corvettes or, in extreme cases, IPC. In the same place.
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              2. The installation of the Shtil-1 modules on it could solve the air defense tasks

              The problem is that in the 22160 version, which is being built for the Navy, there is no free space for mounting the "Shtil" UVP. And second - where to put "Nuts"?
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              3. The protection of the naval base from the underwater enemy, in theory, should be stationary coastal. "Harmony" seemed to be planned to go into operation ... Plus PLO aircraft, turntables with VGS-3 and AT-2 ...

              Oh yes ... Chirkov in 2014 turned around cleaner than Manilov.
              One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of the naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the adjacent territories. This task is now performed by coastal surveillance equipment, stationary sonar stations and coastal missile and artillery troops armed with anti-ship missiles of various ranges, as well as anti-submarine and strike aircraft.

              He was not even stopped by the fact that the 2012 contract for the modernization of the Il-38 into the Il-38N, even in theory, could give only five aircraft in three years.
            2. Barberry25
              Barberry25 25 November 2021 16: 57
              -4
              last year there was information that the containers did start testing ..
              1. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 25 November 2021 16: 59
                -4
                Quote: Barberry25
                last year there was information that the containers did start testing ..

                And this is GOOD NEWS !!! good
                1. Barberry25
                  Barberry25 25 November 2021 17: 15
                  -4
                  the main thing is to bring to mind
                2. Very kind
                  Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 24
                  +1
                  Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                  And this is GOOD NEWS !!!

                  fool
                  THIS IS -

                  "good news!?????
                  Sure????
            3. Very kind
              Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 20
              +3
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              2. The ships are being built at the Shipyard (4 at Zelenodolsk and 2 at the Shipyard Priliv (Kerch)), which were in dire need of orders. The working class (especially the Crimea!) Needs to be fed so that it does not die out, does not declassify as a huckster.

              in fact, they feed MANAGERS and the working class is on a stagnation there
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              3. They are KNS.

              fool
              with a formal move of 21 knots, and the actual ... belay ? - do not tell my sneakers!
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              1. It has a 2 x 40-foot installation. container. What prevents to install in one GPBA, and in the second - the equipment of the SJSC?

              ahem ... "partners" such GAS (with such performance characteristics) even put on the BOAT
              even 1 40f container is not enough for us - give two belay
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              3. The protection of the naval base from the underwater enemy, in theory, should be stationary coastal. "Harmony" seemed to be planned to go into operation

              I have already uploaded the video - a lobbyist CRASH who "suddenly began to break" by fishermen exactly before the tests
              There were no "stationary hydroacoustic stations" with the required parameters in 2014, and there are none now.
              However, the topic was actively lobbied by Chirkov's "good acquaintance" Mr. Zhandarov (formerly a senior lecturer at the Military Academy of the General Staff). Sensitive to his "public revelations":
              Sergei, 19:04, February 26, 2014: But because until I took up the solution to the problems with naval underwater weapons, ALL, I repeat, ALL respected persons to whom you and similar guardsmen reported to the hirnyu. And here I am, realizing that everything is very bad in the underwater war, realizing that there are no underwater weapons, realizing that the "minesweepers" and the prototypical "laperuzs" want to be doctors and great, then they swear everywhere and on the Kursk, too, FORCED by this problem to do.

              Now the city of Zhandarov with a bang on the topic of the defense industry is exposed
              mina 2015-10-11 21:25:37
              Substantial. When I wrote about the "squeak from under the plinth" (in the comments to http://vpk-news.ru/articles/26820), I did not know yet.
              "Gendar Bender" ALL: canthearyou:
              it's just a pity that without "breaking the shoulder straps before the formation"
              now housing and communal services, they say "raises" (in the place of Muscovites, I would strain: D)

              https://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=122&p=31#p617753
              and is engaged in the resettlement of Tajiks in basements in Odintsovo near Moscow -

              https://youtu.be/v6xqIx_T0Jo
              [media = https: //youtu.be/v6xqIx_T0Jo]
              [media = https: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = v6xqIx_T0Jo]
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6xqIx_T0Jo

              PS - this is a clear illustration of how in the Navy "issues were resolved" belay
              Zhandarov is now with the Tajiks in Odintsovo, and Chirkov is the chief adviser to the President of the USC
        4. IL-18
          IL-18 25 November 2021 16: 18
          -1
          And I agree with the boa constrictor. The pirates are the only ones capable of puzzling the entire six patrol ships by cooving the court, taking into account that the problem is not only Somalia. The available funds are sufficient, and the autonomy for such a displacement is luxurious. The modular design isn't too bad either. This is a problem today. And after 15 years, it will probably only be necessary to place it in place, and "plug the plug into the socket", because Research institutes and design bureaus must be busy. The only thing that depresses me about this is the price.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 25 November 2021 16: 44
            +3
            Quote: IL-18
            And I agree with the boa constrictor. The pirates are the only ones capable of puzzling the entire six patrol ships by cooving the court, taking into account that the problem is not only Somalia.

            The solution to the problem of sea piracy without cleanings on the shore has long been known. And this is not a one-helicopter patrol ship. Either PMC teams on board the "merchants", or a base ship - a carrier of helicopters and landing groups, covering an entire area, capable of working out several signals of a seizure threat at once and providing normal conditions for the crew and landing forces and preparing vehicles for departure.
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 25 November 2021 16: 57
            -5
            Quote: IL-18
            The modular design isn't too bad either.
            The point is that our critics are looking "backward", but we need to look to the future. And there it is the modules looming. The "horse" is the same, but the "riders" will change according to the task. Already the UAV is on its way, and the UAV too. The matter is small: to make and place (What should we build a house? - We will draw, we will live! (C))
            The only thing that depresses me about this is the price.
            Good things are never cheap. And the current mincemeat for the Navy is becoming more expensive like water in the desert: the further, the more expensive ... Such is life. Nothing personal just business! - And figs you will dig into them !!!
            AHA.
            1. Very kind
              Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 27
              0
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              The point is that our critics are looking "backward", but we need to look to the future. And there it is the modules looming.

              sure?
              a bit of reality -
              https://topwar.ru/174150-moduli-patrulniki-ne-spasut.html
              https://topwar.ru/175212-kakie-moduli-nuzhny-nashim-korabljam.html
          3. Very kind
            Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 25
            -1
            Quote: IL-18
            Pirates alone are capable of puzzling all six patrol ships.

            they are capable of puzzling them to the point of SPRING
        5. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 26 November 2021 08: 54
          -1
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

          And it is declared (mind you!) As a PATROL ship ... not a battleship or a cruiser, and not even a frigate with a corvette, but as a patrol ship! You are not

          So it is so, but only ...
          Use a dump truck instead of a taxi, you know ...
          Use such a fool to chase smugglers and foreign fishermen?
        6. businessv
          businessv 27 November 2021 11: 07
          -1
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          And it is declared (mind you!) As a PATROL ship ... not a battleship or a cruiser, and not even a frigate with a corvette, but as a patrol ship!
          I involuntarily recalled a video of the pursuit of the British - our 25 knots looked pale compared to their 32, unfortunately.
        7. bk0010
          bk0010 27 November 2021 17: 31
          +1
          Eng
          Quote: BoA KAA
          Hangar for 2 helicopters (and platforms - for 3), a slip with a hangar for at least 2 boats (better for 3), a pair of 130-mm towers instead of 76-mm pukalka, otherwise the intruder will be drowned until the carrot spell (well, or torpedo tubes) , premises for a prison and a torture chamber (so that the boatswain does not stain the walls), a 35-node passage (otherwise it will be like with Defender), a place for at least 2 Marine platoons, the possibility of installing a towed GAS, the possibility of using autonomous demining devices (instead of boats), etc. This is one (just kidding). At least double the displacement: 1800 tons is not enough for the open sea. And the main thing is to convey all this joy from the Navy to the border guards: chasing pirates is their task.
        8. Serge-667
          Serge-667 28 November 2021 15: 01
          0
          60 days? Seriously?
          28 dug for 60 days, this is about 10 tons of food and water. Is there where to put them?

          You can say anything you want, After 5-10 days of crawling these doves of peace did not come across.
          The FSB has already shoved them and let them finish them off. These cuttlefish didn't stick to the Navy for nothing.
    3. Red_Graphic
      Red_Graphic 26 November 2021 13: 21
      0
      From how. Have you seen on the video footage from the exercises of the Ministry of Defense that on the ships of these projects, when practicing the launch of an air defense missile, sailors with MANPADS run out onto the deck? ))) What are you talking about? And yet, why do you think that on such a ship, there is room only for 8 MANPADS? Roughly speaking, one calculation of fighters from two people, air defense, armed with MANPADS? )))
  2. srelock
    srelock 25 November 2021 06: 29
    -4
    The meaning of 22160 is, oddly enough, in patrolling. Har-ki power, hull, modes of movement, composition of equipment, crew, etc. are optimized to obtain the minimum cost of a mile. The Pin_dos_ littoral zones had requirements inadequate to the technological capabilities for the power ratio of the SU / VI and the cruising range, which drowned them.
    1. Bez 310
      Bez 310 25 November 2021 08: 26
      +8
      Quote: srelock
      The meaning of 22160 is, oddly enough, in patrolling.

      What do you mean by the word "patrolling"?
      1. Very kind
        Very kind 25 November 2021 09: 29
        -1
        Quote: Bez 310
        What do you mean by the word "patrolling"?

        He doesn't understand anything, just smacking nonsense.
        1. Serge-667
          Serge-667 28 November 2021 15: 09
          -1
          Definitely. Moreover, tasks in the coastal zone are not solved this way.
      2. donavi49
        donavi49 25 November 2021 10: 08
        +8
        Finding the ship in the area indicated by the leadership.

        Just practice 22160 shows that the ship is like zilch, but in fact they get out of the campaigns. One returned.


        The second did not really leave, but was already driven to Algeria.


        The third guards the NATO fleets near the straits and takes them to escort.

        Previously, all sorts of Ladny, Sharp-witted were chased under this business. Which is more expensive (the crew is corny more) and more dangerous (because technology lives on faith in Soviet quality). And the big ones. And now the niche is being closed by 22160. You can send it with a second pennant to the exercises, and accompany the grouping of Western partners and show your presence in the DMZ.
        1. Bez 310
          Bez 310 25 November 2021 10: 09
          +6
          Quote: donavi49
          Finding the ship in the area indicated by the leadership.

          What for?
          1. donavi49
            donavi49 25 November 2021 10: 12
            +8
            Then what the homeland ordered. Why, again, send Ladny or Sharp-witted to the patrol? In terms of their fighting qualities and architecture, they only cause laughter from their Western partners.

            Why send a BOD / cruiser against pirates? Well, the Navy did not have any other platforms at the DMZ, but Putin ordered - the Navy said there is. As a result, the crisis of the BNK rank 1-2, from which the fleets still cannot wake up. The Undaunted, killed by the pirates, most likely will not return under the tree and will leave at 22. And Chabanenko's in general, everything is bad and it is not a fact that he will be oklematsya.
            1. Bez 310
              Bez 310 25 November 2021 10: 24
              +3
              Quote: donavi49
              Then what the homeland ordered.

              That is, you cannot say anything specific about the presence of a patrol boat in a given area? It's a pity ... And you don't have to carry any nonsense, just answer the question.
            2. Very kind
              Very kind 25 November 2021 10: 54
              -3
              Quote: donavi49
              Why, again, send Ladny or Sharp-witted to the patrol? In terms of their fighting qualities and architecture, they only cause laughter from their Western partners.

              they just didn't call
              see the same video with "Defender"
              Quote: donavi49
              And at Chabanenko, everything is bad in general, and it is not a fact that he will recover.

              aha
              and now "for some reason" in the Gulf of Guinea "Kulakov", and not these "troughs"
              1. donavi49
                donavi49 25 November 2021 11: 28
                +3
                He has had an extensive program since the summer. Now they seem to be going home.

                These "troughs" are 100% occupied - one is always in the SPM. One is getting ready. One greets guests at the straits. Now there are 2 "troughs" in the SPM - one somewhere in central, the second in Algeria for exercises, and the third for the World Cup, two weeks ago he returned from 100 days in the SPM.
                1. Very kind
                  Very kind 25 November 2021 11: 50
                  -5
                  Quote: donavi49
                  These "troughs" are 100% busy - one always in the SPM

                  defended in Tartous?
                  is it while 1155 kill a resource in the ocean?
            3. 76SSSR
              76SSSR 25 November 2021 12: 50
              +3
              Quote: donavi49
              leaves for 22

              "Fearless" seems to have been repaired and modernized at Yantar, in addition, everything is already finished there, what does the 22nd shop have to do with it? This is "Chabanenko" in the 22nd at "Zvezdochka", should be commissioned in a couple of years. And the misuse of "boxes" is a whole separate topic.
              1. donavi49
                donavi49 25 November 2021 14: 32
                +4
                Undaunted, got up for repairs right after another shift in Aden in 2014.
                The task of the plant is to hand over to the tree.

                Factory tests are underway at the moment. Time is ticking, and the ship is still passing tests at the wall. No, you can even surrender a ship under the tree without going out to sea, by the highest order. However, we understand what this means.

                I wrote about 22 in the sense of the year 2022.
                1. 76SSSR
                  76SSSR 25 November 2021 14: 34
                  0
                  Quote: donavi49
                  I wrote about 22 in the sense of the year 2022.

                  It is clear, but I thought about the 22nd workshop.)
            4. CastroRuiz
              CastroRuiz 25 November 2021 14: 47
              +2
              Chabanenko very much. Samiy advance from the military-industrial complex.
              1. 1Alexey
                1Alexey 27 November 2021 02: 55
                0
                Quote: CastroRuiz
                Chabanenko very much. Samiy advance from the military-industrial complex.

                Was before (at one time). At this time, its strike missile system (ASM) is already outdated, it will be good if it is replaced with universal installations, and it would be nice to modernize the air defense
                1. Serge-667
                  Serge-667 28 November 2021 15: 23
                  0
                  How is it outdated? Supersonic Mosquito?
                  Or 30 knots?
          2. Barberry25
            Barberry25 25 November 2021 17: 01
            -5
            accompany guests, not to mention the fact that there is always a place for reconnaissance equipment
        2. Very kind
          Very kind 25 November 2021 10: 52
          -4
          Quote: donavi49
          guards NATO fleets near the straits and takes them to escort.

          The defender exhaustively showed what such "escort" is "worth" - it works only until the NATO members themselves PERMIT
          Quote: donavi49
          in fact, they get out of hikes

          the joke is that "for some reason" they are afraid to let them go far
          and in the ocean there are others
          incl. 1155 for the sake of removing such tasks from which this SCAM began
          1. donavi49
            donavi49 25 November 2021 11: 31
            +4
            Defender has exhaustively shown what such "support" is worth


            What would anyone else do? Here is the flagship Moscow? Would you go for a ram? With Defender there is generally a classic - they are a sneaker on the floor, 22460 immediately wilted, well, 22160 is also not a racer. However, if Moscow was next to it squeezing the last juices from the turbines, it would change something ???
            1. Very kind
              Very kind 25 November 2021 11: 49
              -3
              Quote: donavi49
              However, if Moscow was next to it squeezing the last juices from the turbines, it would change something ???

              Yes
              1. Serge-667
                Serge-667 28 November 2021 15: 29
                -3
                it is pointless to argue with amateurs.
        3. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 25 November 2021 12: 30
          +8
          Quote: donavi49
          in fact, they get out of the hikes.

          Apparently, these boxes are suitable only for hiking in peacetime. Show the flag, bring the right people from the headquarters to the battle (for currency) ... it is, of course, necessary, but suddenly, God forbid, there is a war?
          1. donavi49
            donavi49 25 November 2021 14: 34
            +4
            That is, peacetime tasks are no longer needed? And on a cruise visit you need to drive a BOD or a Cruiser so that it then dies and is under repair for 7-10 years? We have already tried to do this - it ended with an urgent design and placing an order for 22160.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 25 November 2021 14: 55
              +9
              Quote: donavi49
              That is, peacetime tasks are no longer needed?

              Answer for yourself, why is the military fleet and, more broadly, the armed forces created?
              If for peacetime tasks, then is it worth burdening the state and society with their content?
              If a ship stands as a combat ship, and occupies the infrastructure necessary for real combat ships, but is unable to perform combat missions, then it is not needed.
              1. Scharnhorst
                Scharnhorst 25 November 2021 17: 45
                -6
                And this is nothing that military doctors are helping to fight the COVID epidemic, military builders are building BAM, engineers and sappers are dismantling the rubble and clearing minefields, and now they are rowing in the seaside and snow with shovels ... Etto, Vanechka, Rassya! what
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 25 November 2021 17: 52
                  +6
                  Quote: Scharnhorst
                  And this is nothing that military doctors are helping to fight the covid epidemic, military builders are building BAM, engineers and sappers are dismantling the rubble and clearing minefields, and now they are rowing in the seaside and snow with shovels ...

                  Why is this stream of consciousness?
                  After all these actions, the military returns to their main duties, which are to carry out can.
                  Patrolman 22160 can't!
                  Quote: Scharnhorst
                  Etto, Vanechka, Russ!

                  They would have kept silent, passed for smart and heterosexual.
              2. Botanologist
                Botanologist 28 November 2021 20: 04
                0
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                If for peacetime tasks, then is it worth burdening the state and society with their content?

                Fierce logic. It turns out that if you have built a fleet - please declare war on some kind of sea power. We fought - the fleet on nails. fool
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 28 November 2021 20: 16
                  0
                  Quote: Botanologist
                  Fierce logic.

                  In your case, no doubt.
                  I didn’t write anything like that. On the contrary, if our warships are unable to carry out a combat mission, this can provoke "some naval power" to aggression.
              3. dim999
                dim999 5 December 2021 18: 26
                -1
                Answer for yourself, why is the military fleet and, more broadly, the armed forces created?

                Specifically, the fleet of the Russian Empire - the USSR - the Russian Federation is created in order to spend state money in peacetime, and hide in bases during the war. What has been successfully doing for 150+ years. Sometimes he manages to be pushed into the sea, then he suits Tsushima, the leadership realizes that there is less damage and shame from him in the bases, and everything returns to normal.
                Do you have any reason to believe that the Navy is going to abandon its traditions?)))
            2. Very kind
              Very kind 25 November 2021 14: 57
              0
              Quote: donavi49
              That is, peacetime tasks are no longer needed?

              AGAIN
              22160 IS NOT ABLE to solve them in any way effectively
              (the same anti-terrorist - boats ... BUT, vert cannot be used on excitement, he can barely walk)
              PC - yes you need
              but EFFECTIVE
              1. Scharnhorst
                Scharnhorst 25 November 2021 18: 17
                -2
                State your vision of the PC concept and a general outline of the main parameters and weapons ... Pliz! stop
                1. Very kind
                  Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 31
                  +1
                  Quote: Scharnhorst
                  Outline

                  laid out long ago
                  but in YOUR case - not a horse feed
                  therefore there is no desire to "throw beads"
            3. Very kind
              Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 32
              -3
              Quote: donavi49
              A cruiser so that he would then die and be under repair for 7-10 years? We have already tried to do this - it ended with an urgent design and placing an order for 22160.

              YOU are not tired of LIE?
        4. Very kind
          Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 30
          -1
          Quote: donavi49
          Just practice 22160 shows that the ship is like zilch, but in fact they get out of the campaigns.

          Quote: donavi49
          The second did not really leave, but was already driven to Algeria.

          YOU "MODELY DIDN'T NOTICE" WHAT IN THE FAR OCEAN ZONE (FOR WHICH THEY "LIKE WOULD" DO THEM, IS CHECKING OUT THE RESOURCE 1155 !!!
          and "for some reason" they are frankly AFRAID of "letting go far"
          Quote: donavi49
          Previously, all sorts of Ladny, Sharp-witted were chased under this business. Which is more expensive (the crew is corny more) and more dangerous (because technology lives on faith in Soviet quality). And the big ones. And now the niche is being closed by 22160.

          LIES
          "for some reason" now in the Gulf of Guinea was "Kulakov" (1155) and not these KORYTA
        5. Red_Graphic
          Red_Graphic 26 November 2021 13: 38
          -3
          Yes, the article is so-so. Approximately 8 MANPADS (manual air defense systems), and "on ships more than modest. One 76,2-mm artillery mount AK-176MA (w / c 304 rounds) ....." is the AK-176MA with a rate of fire of 76 mm shells 120 rounds per minute, and an operational ammunition of 300 rounds, modest? Yes, for any NATO ship, one half-minute burst of 76 shells is more than enough to receive fatal damage for the continuation of the combat mission. And less serious ships, she is corny with such a queue drowning.
      3. srelock
        srelock 25 November 2021 13: 50
        +1
        Suppression of piracy, anti-terrorism, inspection of ships and other police functions, rescue operations, various underwater work, intelligence and surveillance, diplomatic and cultural activities, etc.
      4. Revival
        Revival 25 November 2021 15: 37
        0
        I walk, I look, maybe I will have time to shout the guard ..
    2. Very kind
      Very kind 25 November 2021 09: 28
      0
      Quote: srelock
      The meaning of 22160 is, oddly enough, in patrolling. Har-ki power, hull, modes of movement, composition of equipment, crew, etc. are optimized to obtain the minimum cost of a mile.

      fool
      here he has

      with twice the displacement and less power, the speed is almost 2 knots more
      this is about GOSy 22160
      about real "full PE" at a speed of 22160 - there in the area of ​​EBR 2TE belay

      Quote: srelock
      The Pin_dos_ littoral zones had requirements inadequate to the technological capabilities for the power ratio of the SU / VI and the cruising range, which drowned them.

      lol
      Monsieur, YOU don't know ANYTHING about this
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 25 November 2021 12: 37
        +5
        Quote: Very kind
        with twice the displacement and less power, the speed is almost 2 knots more

        "Boyarin", according to Skvortsov, cost the treasury 3 million 356 thousand rubles. About the same displacement, but much slower, almost unarmed and unarmored "Almaz" in 2,5 million ...
        Tradition?
  3. svoroponov
    svoroponov 25 November 2021 06: 35
    .
    Modules will be delivered if necessary. In the meantime, he has weapons for his purpose. Coastal protection. And there are already separate ship modules - container KLAB, anti-aircraft ship BUK, anti -arable pencil case with ONYX, maybe some other. Everything has its time.
    1. 1Alexey
      1Alexey 25 November 2021 08: 14
      .
      Quote: svoroponov
      Modules will be delivered if necessary.

      Moreover, for each such ship, you can install your own permanent type of module (modularity in this case will greatly facilitate, for example, repair work (you do not need to send the entire ship for repair, but only a replaceable module, which can be immediately replaced with a workable one and a ship without long delays will be able to continue the service)).

      At the same time, in case of emergency, this ship can be converted to another type of module, again on a permanent or long-term basis.
    2. Bez 310
      Bez 310 25 November 2021 08: 27
      +10
      Quote: svoroponov
      Modules will be delivered if necessary.

      They won't deliver anything already.
      They reported on the construction of ships, "mastered" the money, and out of sight.
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 25 November 2021 12: 34
        -1
        Quote: Bez 310
        They won't deliver anything already.

        Colleague, don't dress up like Kasandra. - It doesn't suit you! bully
        1. K298rtm
          K298rtm 27 November 2021 00: 37
          +1
          1. It is not enough to deliver what was in the warehouse. You still need to know how to use it.
          2. Is there a prepared calculation (for example, for the use of a gas with a gpba) also in the warehouse?
          3. In ISBU it is necessary to install FPO in advance (for managing all possible modules). This is so that the l / s acquires skills in the training mode.
          4. Modularity can still be limited by the versatility of the launcher (533 mm), and the armament can be installed normally (in my humble opinion).
    3. Very kind
      Very kind 25 November 2021 09: 30
      +1
      Quote: svoroponov
      Modules will be delivered if necessary.

      Yeah
      draw (on whatman paper) and "put" lol

      Quote: svoroponov
      And there are already separate ship modules - container KLAB, anti-aircraft ship BUK, anti -arable canister with ONYX

      fool
      these are YOU "squirrels" wassat told? lol
      1. svoroponov
        svoroponov 25 November 2021 22: 49
        -2
        Squirrels are in your head. I have to read and analyze a lot of different civil and military press. Here is the data from here. You can find them too.
        And my friends, the military, have always told me and I support them in this: If you have not read or seen something, it does not mean that this, something, is not.
        1. Nemchinov Vl
          Nemchinov Vl 29 November 2021 22: 22
          +2
          it seems that (judging by the manner and style of communication), you are communicating with "Mine" (he is Klimov M.) ... brace yourself (!).
          Quote: Very kind
          monsieur, YOU don't know ANYTHING about it
          (it is still almost without arrogance !!) ...
          or

          Quote: Very kind
          did the "squirrels" tell YOU?
          ...
          such expressions familiar to him (!)... only missing, -
          Quote: Very kind
          Kisa ...
          from the appeals he is used to .... Yes, and nickname this time different ...
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 November 2021 15: 57
      +3
      Quote: svoroponov
      And there are already separate ship modules - container KLAB, an anti-aircraft ship BUK, an antiarable canister with ONYX, perhaps some other.

      Where did you see the modular Buk?
      What was shown is a land module, which is suboptimal and ineffective for a ship. A single air defense system module for a ship is generally heresy, because the radar station must be located based on the minimum number of sectors shaded by structures and electromagnetic compatibility with other RES, the air defense systems must stand under the upper deck (motionless, not in a rotating block), and the control cabin in general it is better to integrate it into the CIC in the form of "places of air defense operators" (at the same time, it is possible to prepare calculations on the simulator).
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 25 November 2021 16: 43
        0
        But the modular air defense system Tor M2 is for such ships
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 November 2021 16: 47
          +5
          Quote: Vadim237
          But the modular air defense system Tor M2 is for such ships

          This is not for ships, but for the country's air defense - a land module.
          For the air defense of the ship, this thing is of little use: either we have half of the horizon in the shadow and the radar does not see beyond its own nose, or we will have to drag the UVP and the cockpit to the mast (at the risk of repeating the feat of Captain Vrungel with the transformation into a submarine). smile
          1. svoroponov
            svoroponov 25 November 2021 22: 50
            -3
            There is already on the ship, it is being tested.
        2. Very kind
          Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 35
          +1
          Quote: Vadim237
          But the modular air defense system Tor M2 is for such ships

          You are raving
          THIS ABM IS NOT SUITABLE FOR MARINE APPLICATIONS (without major modifications)

          at least by the pitching parameter
          1. svoroponov
            svoroponov 26 November 2021 10: 40
            -3
            The missiles of such complexes are launched vertically with a turn on the target in the air. The pitching has practically no effect on the launch, well, if only a fierce storm. Guidance, as well as target detection, is carried out through the ship's radar instead of the radar of the installation itself. Such connections and interface are available at these installations, including land-based ones. Requires software to interface with the vehicle's BIOS.
            By the way, one of the Georgian boats was hit by a missile from the Strela air defense system.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 26 November 2021 13: 15
              +2
              Quote: svoroponov
              Guidance, as well as target detection, is carried out through the ship's radar instead of the radar of the installation itself. Such connections and interface are available at these installations, including land-based ones.

              U 9M338K - radio command telecontrol. What standard shipborne radar are you going to accompany the missile defense system and transfer control commands to it?
              Quote: svoroponov
              By the way, one of the Georgian boats was hit by a missile from the Strela air defense system.

              Actually, the complex was called "Wasp". And to install it on the ship, a new launcher and a new control system had to be made, which was 70% unified with the land complex.
              1. svoroponov
                svoroponov 27 November 2021 20: 50
                0
                Yes, thanks for the amendment. Everything else on ship radar and missile guidance is an engineering solution for duplication, or simply transferring missile control and guidance units to the ship's superstructure. And for small ships, even this is not necessary.
  4. FoBoss_V
    FoBoss_V 25 November 2021 06: 36
    0
    Quite an adequate project for your tasks. Why are they rolling a barrel at him? If the grandmother had a pepper, she would be a grandfather ... Another question is that their number is catastrophically small in the fleets. We have such holes on the borders that in Primorye, in bad weather, hundreds of North Korean poaching schooners settle in bays, and this is in the north of the region, i.e. they crawled there with impunity and no one stopped them ...
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 25 November 2021 09: 16
      +7
      Quote: FoBoss_V
      Quite an adequate project for your tasks. Why are they rolling a barrel at him?

      For him "his tasks" practically do not overlap with the tasks of the Navy: catching smugglers and "environmental monitoring" is clearly not the work of the military. And more he really does not know how to do anything, except to demonstrate the flag.
    2. Very kind
      Very kind 25 November 2021 09: 31
      -7
      Quote: FoBoss_V
      Quite an adequate project for your tasks

      fool
      https://topwar.ru/186909-innovacionnyj-marazm-patrulnyh-korablej-proekta-22160.html
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 November 2021 16: 00
      +2
      Quote: FoBoss_V
      Quite an adequate project for your tasks. Why are they rolling a barrel at him?

      Because their tasks for this project, these are the tasks of the FSB, not the Navy. For nee 22160 was the PSKR. And he solves these tasks well - but as a naval ship he should not solve them.
      But the specific tasks of the Navy, such as the protection of bases and OVR, etc. 22160 cannot solve - there is nothing. And they stand in front of him.

      The main complaint against 22160 is that the wrong department ordered the ship. smile
      1. Scharnhorst
        Scharnhorst 25 November 2021 18: 12
        -5
        You argue competently! hi But if you go from the opposite !? It is possible to transfer the fight against poaching, piracy, border protection to other departments - will the fleet receive ships and funding at all? The fleet will never handle the tasks of the global missile defense (the threat from SLBMs); it is also more effective to deal with land-based airfields and air defense systems on the coast from the strike of sea-based KRBD (from any sea carriers) and attack carrier-based aircraft; the airborne operation will be performed faster and more efficiently by the military aviation and the airborne forces; submarines are cheaper to destroy in bases and not to search across the seas and oceans ... So maybe it's time to reassign the fleet to coastal districts to solve secondary tasks with a reduction in funding and rearmament priorities?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 November 2021 18: 39
          +3
          Quote: Scharnhorst
          But if you go from the opposite !? It is possible to transfer the fight against poaching, piracy, border protection to other departments - will the fleet receive ships and funding at all?

          So these tasks, besides the fight against piracy, have long been transferred to another department - the FSB. Border protection is a guard. The fight against poaching is also a security guard (after the transfer of responsibility for the economic zone to the border guards).
          In the situation with 22160, the Navy had the money to develop a project of the OVR corvette, the most important and essential for it. For "Albatrosses" were already "everything" - 25-30 years in service without modernization. But the Navy nailed the development of the project, and instead ordered patrol ships according to the project, originally the former PSKR. As a result, the Navy was left without an OVR (and therefore - without the possibility of ensuring the exit / entry of SSBNs from / to the base), but with ships that are only suitable for demonstrating their presence in Tartus. Even the fight against piracy is being taken over by others.
          Quote: Scharnhorst
          The fleet will never handle the tasks of the global missile defense (the threat from SLBMs); it is also more effective to deal with land-based airfields and air defense systems on the coast from the strike of sea-based KRBD (from any sea carriers) and attack carrier-based aircraft; the airborne operation will be performed faster and more efficiently by the military aviation and the airborne forces; submarines are cheaper to destroy in bases and not to search across the seas and oceans ...

          The task for our Navy is one - to ensure the withdrawal of SSBNs into positional areas and the survival of these SSBNs in them for a time sufficient to train the launch command. The Navy does not have this task more important - if only because 40% of our strategic SBS are on SLBMs. And we have no right to lose them - because after all the agreements on limitation, the number of SBCs fell to the lower limit of guaranteed retaliatory destruction.
          1. CastroRuiz
            CastroRuiz 26 November 2021 14: 27
            +2
            And yes, yes.
            Chirkov is great at the station. 58 pulls.
      2. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 29 November 2021 22: 34
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        But the specific tasks of the Navy, such as protection of bases and OVR, Project 22160 cannot decide - nothing.
        as they cannot be effectively addressed etc. 20380 in terms of the composition of its weapons (in view of the absence PLUR, and low speed) ... but this does not bother anyone (!), and its cost is 2,5 - 3 times higher for the Navy ... isn't it ?!
        Quote: Alexey RA
        And they stand in front of him.
        you rightly noticed it (!).

        Quote: Alexey RA
        The main complaint against 22160 is that the wrong department ordered the ship.
        it is interesting how to perform the functions of security guard in Tartus or in the Gulf of Aden (like more than 200 miles ...)? !!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 30 November 2021 10: 49
          0
          Quote: Vl Nemchinov
          how they cannot be effectively solved, etc. 20380 in terms of the composition of its weapons (due to the lack of PLUR and low speed) ... but this does not bother anyone (!), and its cost is 2,5 - 3 times higher for the Navy. .. is not it ?!!!

          Not this way. The 20380 has all the components of a submarine: a full-fledged SAC with several GAS, an anti-submarine helicopter and means of supporting its basing, a near submarine in the form of a "Package" (yes, I remember the need for rechargeable light TA with a large ammo, but without fish ...).
          At 22160 there is nothing at all.
          Quote: Vl Nemchinov
          I wonder how to perform the functions of guardianship in Tartus or in the Gulf of Aden (like more than 200 miles ...) ?!

          So that's the problem: in Tartus and under the flag of the Navy, these tasks do not need to be performed, and 22160 cannot do anything else. smile
          He would have to hang out somewhere in the Kuril Islands in the economic zone ... especially since the local security guard has experience in operating helicopter-carrying ships.
          1. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 2 December 2021 19: 01
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Not this way. The 20380 has all the PLO components: a full-fledged GAC with several GAS,
            that is, he has something to detect submarines within a radius of 25-40 km (if you're lucky). so what is next ? !! and how to attack it in the implementation of OVR / PLO ... ?!
            Quote: Alexey RA
            anti-submarine helicopter and means of ensuring its basing
            the anti-submarine helicopter has a maximum of one torpedo and can be reloaded at sea, As far as I understand not possible (!)... And one torpedo went to the "imitator" or SGPD ... ?! and how to call both of these projects not equally toothless ? !!! This is with their difference in the price tag at least THREE TIMES ...? !!
            By the way, it is not completely clear, and the fact that on 22160 there can be only KA 27 PS, or it is still possible that KA 27 (in anti-submarine version) ... ? !!

            Quote: Alexey RA
            but without fish ...).
            isn't it a little expensive for that "bezrybe" ...? !!!
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 3 December 2021 10: 41
              0
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              that is, he has something to detect submarines within a radius of 25-40 km (if he is lucky). so what is next ?!!

              And then you need to remember that this is an OVR. In which the PLO corvettes are just one of the elements of the system, including stationary GAS. Plus, there are PLO aircraft on board and ashore.
              And in general, the OVR's job is to drive the enemy away from the base. Don't graze the DMZ. smile
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              and how to attack it in the implementation of OVR / PLO ...? !!!

              Ka-27.
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              the anti-submarine helicopter has a maximum of one torpedo, and its reloading at sea, as far as I understand, is not possible (!).

              At 20380 it is quite possible - otherwise it would not be worthwhile to fence a garden with an aircraft armament cellar and an ASP hoist to the deck.
              In the diagram, the lift is not marked, but it is clearly visible - under the PU NURS SPPP (number 3).

              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              By the way, it is not completely clear, and the fact that on 22160 there can be only KA 27 PS, or it is still possible that KA 27 (in anti-submarine version) ...? !!

              You can land an anti-submarine helicopter on 22160. It is impossible to base - because there is no ASP cellar and ASP hoist. It turns out the previously described one-time helicopter - for one flight.
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              Isn't it a little expensive for such a "lack of fish" ...? !!!

              If you expect a light TA from the industry, then you don't have to start building a corvette at all. So let them put on the "Package" for now, and then re-equip them with normal TA as soon as they are ready. All the same, OVR ships will be chasing us for 30-35 years.
      3. FoBoss_V
        FoBoss_V 2 December 2021 14: 22
        0
        I also wrote about it. But apparently here the majority are used to reading between the lines without thinking. The fact that this project was handed over to the Navy and not to the FSB Pagranservice is another story, but I repeat once again that a normal project is under its patrol tasks.
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. Lair
    Lair 25 November 2021 06: 47
    +13
    The article does not indicate the cost of these ships. In terms of price-quality ratio, this project does not stand up to criticism. There is no speed, no weapons. Waste of energy, money and time.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 25 November 2021 16: 46
      -4
      You know the price - name it.
  7. Alex 1970
    Alex 1970 25 November 2021 07: 09
    +6
    I'm not an expert in this topic from the word at all, so the question is for those who understand. Is 25 knots sufficient travel for an anti-submarine ship if it is positioned that way? How many looked on the Internet, the ships are at full speed at thirty knots. And at full speed, won't our corvette go deaf from the noise of its own engine? And how in such conditions to maintain contact with the boat if there is no helicopter on it? At least as I understood, if there is no hangar, then there is no helicopter on an ongoing basis. And what, then, is an antisubmarine from him?
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 25 November 2021 07: 17
      +11
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      And what, then, is an antisubmarine from him?
      he has nothing "anti-submarine", cutter-cutter.
      1. Alex 1970
        Alex 1970 25 November 2021 07: 32
        +2
        So "vague doubts plagued" as it was said in one film.
      2. Momento
        Momento 27 November 2021 00: 42
        -2
        slightly improved island. maybe a little overpriced, but, in principle, a normal patrol.
    2. 1Alexey
      1Alexey 25 November 2021 08: 04
      .
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      At least as I understood, if there is no hangar, then there is no helicopter on an ongoing basis. And what, then, is an antisubmarine from him?

      The helicopter is a desirable, but not strictly required weapon for the fight against submarines. For example, the Soviet IPCs also did not have their own helicopters, but they were sharpened to deal specifically with submarines.
      A given ship can be installed on a permanent basis, for example, a container with Calibers and, depending on the need, change Calibers of different types (including Calibers against submarines).
      Signals for detecting enemy submarines can be received both from coastal aviation and from helicopters taking off from other ships (including from ABA).
      1. Very kind
        Very kind 25 November 2021 09: 34
        -5
        Quote: 1Alexey
        A given ship can be installed on a permanent basis, for example, a container with Calibers and, depending on the need, change Calibers of different types (including Calibers against submarines).
        Signals for detecting enemy submarines can be received both from coastal aviation and from helicopters taking off from other ships (including from ABA).

        Monsieur, YOU are not tired with rapture to flog nonsense about what YOU absolutely do not understand anything about?
      2. donavi49
        donavi49 25 November 2021 09: 53
        -1
        And why does he need submarine calibers and win back the target? If your coastal aviation (IL-38N) and helicopters from other ships can work on the detected target themselves.
        1. 1Alexey
          1Alexey 26 November 2021 10: 06
          -2
          Quote: donavi49
          Why does he need PL calibers

          I look at Calibers you don't understand at all: Submarine calibers are Calibers that are installed on submarines, and not that are intended against submarines.
      3. Ryusey
        Ryusey 25 November 2021 15: 54
        +2
        What nonsense. negative
      4. Klonser
        Klonser 25 November 2021 22: 06
        0
        I like such dreamers. He has nothing against the SP. And where did you see the Caliber in the container? On the poster? They are not in metal! And will not
    3. Kalmar
      Kalmar 25 November 2021 09: 22
      +7
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      Is 25 knots sufficient travel for an anti-submarine ship if it is positioned that way?

      To position it that way, it would still be nice to put at least some kind of equipment on it to combat submarines.
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      And at full speed, won't our corvette go deaf from the noise of its own engine?


      I believe that the search is still not in full swing. High speed is useful to catch up with an already discovered and fleeing boat or to quickly move to another area where something interesting was found.

      Quote: Alexey 1970
      And what, then, is an antisubmarine from him?

      Not good)) They say he is sensitive to rolling, so it will be very fun for a helicopter to take off from it in case of strong excitement. In theory, you can probably put a container with BuGAS, and next to it - a container with four PLUR ("Caliber-K") - it will turn out a little better than nothing at all, but it's still difficult to call it an anti-submarine ship.
      1. Alex 1970
        Alex 1970 25 November 2021 09: 49
        +2
        Thanks for the answer, I thought something like that, I just wanted confirmation, right or not.
    4. Very kind
      Very kind 25 November 2021 09: 33
      +2
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      Is 25 knots sufficient travel for an anti-submarine ship if it is positioned that way?

      there is no "25"
      not even 21 - once shown at GOS
      there is generally a full PE
      especially sensitive after operation
      1. Alex 1970
        Alex 1970 25 November 2021 09: 51
        +1
        Then it is quite sad if the boats of the "partners" go up to 30 knots, this "steamer" simply cannot catch up with them.
      2. CastroRuiz
        CastroRuiz 25 November 2021 14: 58
        +1
        Very kind.
        Barely barely reaches 23 knots.
    5. donavi49
      donavi49 25 November 2021 10: 00
      +3
      In the current generation of PLO, the ship must have 8-12 knots under the electric ship. The Koreans, for example, even have a super-quiet mode due to the battery, like on a submarine. The first and probably the only ship in the visible future with a move under electric motors will be the corvette / test vessel 20386.

      Deaf? And MPK 1124 in 112 high-speed cylinders do not stall? And the idea to make an OVR-PLO corvette out of Karakurt, and it has 3x112 cylinder high-speed engines. It thunders so that at the other end of the sea the submarine's acoustics turn down the channel.

      The helicopter is there. Moreover, there is a record refueling for the ships of the Navy. He carries more jet fuel than the cruiser 1164, if anything. This is important in autonomous and DMZ patrols. The same corvette 20380 has about 1 Ka-27 refueling, for example. However, again - the main helicopter there is PS.
      1. Very kind
        Very kind 25 November 2021 10: 57
        -4
        Quote: donavi49

        In the current generation of PLO, the ship must have 8-12 knots under the electric ship.

        fool

        Quote: donavi49
        The Koreans, for example, even have a super-quiet mode due to the battery, like on a submarine. The first and probably the only ship in the visible future with an electric drive will be the corvette / test vessel 20386.

        DO YOU even know that ED works for him through the REDUCER?

        Quote: donavi49
        And MPK 1124 in 112 high-speed cylinders do not stall? And the idea to make an OVR-PLO corvette out of Karakurt, and it has 3x112 cylinder high-speed engines. It thunders so that at the other end of the sea the submarine's acoustics turn down the channel.

        no longer rattles
        because it is provided
        Quote: donavi49
        The helicopter is there.

        only with its application PROBLEMS
        as shown by the transition to the Baltic - by 4 points, the rolls are about 13 degrees
        and now we look at the limitations of the Ka-27 airplane flight control
        but there are NO pacifiers
        Quote: donavi49
        refueling for naval ships. He carries more jet fuel than the cruiser 1164, if anything. This is important in autonomous and DMZ patrols. The same corvette 20380 has about 1 Ka-27 filling for example

        The lie
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 25 November 2021 11: 38
          +2
          fool


          Well, the Koreans are such that they make a series of 8 PLO corvettes. The Europeans, too, are fools who have drilled an electric ship into FREMM under quiet generators. But they would put 112 cylinder high-speed, so the same weapon, they would jam boats themselves and they floated up with a white flag and burnt equipment lol .

          DO YOU even know that ED works for him through the REDUCER?


          And when did the first pancake come out without constructive omissions? This was done. There it is already not far from the Korean scheme.

          no longer rattles


          That is, 3х112 suddenly stopped rattling? Is it NFP? Is Chubais a good fellow in Rosnano?

          but there are NO pacifiers


          But there is a helicopter, and there was no question of using it only in good weather. If we expand on the topic, then there is also an assault boat almost always useless, because the descent / reception minimums are very tough. Well, if we go to the modules with adored Calibers, then he will not always be able to shoot with them, or rather, when God allows it, sending good weather.

          The lie


          There are 2+ KA-27 filling stations on board.
          1. Very kind
            Very kind 25 November 2021 11: 48
            -1
            Quote: donavi49
            And when did the first pancake come out without constructive omissions? This was done. There it is already not far from the Korean scheme.

            aha
            YOUR "fringes" lol - a day or two and "done"

            Quote: donavi49
            when God permits, sending good weather.

            about that and speech
            Quote: donavi49
            There are 2+ KA-27 filling stations on board.

            more
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 25 November 2021 16: 12
        +5
        Quote: donavi49
        The helicopter is there. Moreover, there is a record refueling for the ships of the Navy. He carries more jet fuel than the cruiser 1164, if anything. This is important in autonomous and DMZ patrols. The same corvette 20380 has about 1 Ka-27 refueling, for example. However, again - the main helicopter there is PS.

        There is one subtle point with the 22160 helicopter. The list of vehicles that can be based on a patrol ship includes the Ka-27 only in the PS version. But there is no anti-submarine Ka-27.
        In addition, by 22160 there is a question about the presence of the main element of basing an anti-submarine helicopter - an ammunition hoist to the landing pad. In the photo of the aft part of Project 22160, there are no ammunition hoist doors. In photo 20380, these sashes are clearly visible and marked, but at 22160 there is no hint of them.
  8. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 25 November 2021 07: 54
    +3
    In general, we really need new ships at sea. Capable of performing a variety of combat missions.

    We need a lot of new things, and for this, the leadership should have specialists who represent the essence of the problem firsthand. And today in our country only methods of fraud and theft are successfully developing. Here specialists have been spawned for 30 years like fleas ...
    ... that we simply cannot afford it.

    Can't we? Or don't we want to?
  9. Doccor18
    Doccor18 25 November 2021 08: 07
    +10
    20 years have passed since the first corvette of project 20380 was laid ... For such a period of time, it was quite possible to saturate all Russian fleets (6-8 units each) with these platforms, modify all systems, correct shortcomings, and even create new models of weapons for this frame. The ship is in many respects controversial, too complicated and expensive for a corvette, but since it was decided that it would temporarily become almost the basis of the surface component, then it was necessary to take on this project seriously and for a long time. What is the bottom line? There are only eight units in the ranks, which have problems above the roof, and there is no end to new projects ...
    1. Very kind
      Very kind 25 November 2021 09: 36
      -4
      Quote: Doccor18
      The ship is in many respects controversial, too complicated and expensive for a corvette, but since it was decided that it would temporarily become almost the basis of the surface component, then it was necessary to take on this project seriously and for a long time.

      fool
      1. Who "decided"
      2. "Seriously" is the outboard motors on the stern to weld? - taking into account the fact that he has ONE engine room (and a list of project jambs for a couple of sheets in small handwriting)
  10. EvilLion
    EvilLion 25 November 2021 08: 43
    +3
    After the Su-57, which is zilch, it is somehow strange to perceive Skomorokhov's articles simply from the very basic facts voiced in them. The reality may be, as in the joke, "and did not win, but lost."
  11. p0pulivox
    p0pulivox 25 November 2021 09: 35
    0
    The missile armament of the corvette consists of eight Igla-S or Verba MANPADS. That is, a little more than nothing. In principle, with the help of cannon artillery and MANPADS, the corvette can turn out to be a dangerous enemy for a pair of helicopters. But nothing more.

    It depends on what the helicopters are armed with, in some cases they can turn out to be dangerous opponents for such a corvette.
    But in fact, it turned out, perhaps, a naval spherical horse in a vacuum ...
  12. ramzay21
    ramzay21 25 November 2021 09: 43
    +3
    It is necessary to conduct real tests of these "corvettes", to plant on them instead of the crews those who made decisions on the construction of these misunderstandings, those who praised and pushed them, and let them repel a real missile attack from aircraft and a torpedo attack from a submarine. You look, the next fixers and pushers will begin to think with their heads and really take responsibility for their decisions.
    1. Very kind
      Very kind 25 November 2021 10: 00
      +1
      Quote: ramzay21
      It is necessary to conduct real tests of these "corvettes", to plant on them instead of the crews those who made decisions on the construction of these misunderstandings, those who praised and pushed them, and let them repel a real missile attack from aircraft and a torpedo attack from a submarine. You look, the next fixers and pushers will begin to think with their heads and really take responsibility for their decisions.

      answer by Lesha Naumov (the chief designer of this misunderstanding will be):
      This we did not go through, this is on me asked

      and after all, really - DON'T ASK
      and the one who "did not ask" now in the soft chair of the chief adviser to the president of the USC - Vitek Chirkov
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 25 November 2021 10: 35
      +2
      Well, you laid down the problem. Let's take Karakurt of the first series - some Apache will sink it with helpers or a single Tornado with Brimstones. The second series will be showered with anti-ship missiles. Go ahead, 20380 against 212 / brand new Japanese women with lions - I would not put on a corvette, it can detect a low-noise one only from a position, but not on the move, but she will find it. Also, ships are really trivial to cast aside anti-ship missiles. 4 NATO aircraft, 2 anti-ship missiles each = guaranteed death of the corvette.

      And so on. 22160 in the event of a real conflict will live no longer than any other ship outside its base or formation.
      1. Very kind
        Very kind 25 November 2021 10: 59
        -5
        Quote: donavi49
        I would not put it on a corvette, it can detect a low noise only from a position

        fool
        MUSIER, YOU ARE NOT COMPETENT FROM THE WORD ABSOLUTELY
        have you heard anything about the "Minotaur"?
        Quote: donavi49
        4 NATO aircraft, 2 anti-ship missiles each = guaranteed death of the corvette.

        for a ship with NORMAL AA - NO
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 25 November 2021 11: 19
          +5
          And you mean the profiles of small boats of the 4th generation, which include 212 / Japanese women? And the effectiveness of the Minotaur over them?

          So where does normal air defense begin? Corvette just channel for 8 missiles is not enough. I am not saying that until the new mast they shoot through a single-channel Puma - that is, 3 anti-ship missiles are enough for a guaranteed defeat.
          1. Very kind
            Very kind 25 November 2021 11: 47
            -6
            Quote: donavi49
            And you mean the profiles of small boats of the 4th generation, which include 212 / Japanese women? And the effectiveness of the Minotaur over them?

            requirements for such goals were laid down in the TTZ even before their appearance
            Quote: donavi49
            So where does normal air defense begin?

            already wrote
        2. ramzay21
          ramzay21 25 November 2021 23: 47
          +1
          MUSIER, YOU ARE NOT COMPETENT FROM THE WORD ABSOLUTELY
          have you heard anything about the "Minotaur"?

          The developers of the Minotaur, and most importantly their owners and those who push it, must also be taken into the crew, let them actually show that it works.
          for a ship with NORMAL AA - NO

          Normal air defense is only on frigate 22350, it seems. Let the rest build and show efficiency. We have built a corvette with Zaslon, you are kindly asked to demonstrate to the owners and developers of Zaslon its effectiveness and be responsible for the money and time spent. Drowned, it means there is no efficiency, survived means to reward.
      2. ramzay21
        ramzay21 25 November 2021 23: 38
        +2
        Well, you laid down the problem.

        The son of the commander of the USSR Airborne Forces, Uncle Vasya, was part of the first BMD crew that landed inside the BMD for the first time, and these landing systems are still in service. This is the only way to force us to build combat-ready ships, and apparently there are enough people willing to join the crew for such a ship, a couple of ships will be drowned along with cretins and traitors, but in the future we will have the most efficient ships and there will be fewer fools who make decisions. We checked it on ourselves, and everything, it means the ship is good, everyone has awards, they drowned, it means that the ship is bad, again there is no need to dispose of it.
  13. Alexander Mac
    Alexander Mac 25 November 2021 10: 49
    -3
    At least Armor M would have been installed! And air defense and naval high-speed objects can work!
    And in its current state, so an African steamer !!!!
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 25 November 2021 11: 00
      +4
      At least 2 "Palms" have been delivered .... but they will not be delivered. Our admirals are not going to fight: "There will be no war ...."
    2. bk0010
      bk0010 27 November 2021 17: 57
      0
      The Carapace has a radar station for the desert (decimeter); if it is frozen, it will have to be completely redone.
  14. kig
    kig 25 November 2021 12: 01
    0
    Aren't they the ones chasing Defender?
  15. Ay It hurts
    Ay It hurts 25 November 2021 12: 35
    -1
    Yes, there will be a third world war. But Russia will not participate.
    So everything is fine.
  16. exo
    exo 25 November 2021 12: 44
    +3
    Modularity, in the understanding that was described, was initially a dead-end path for Russia. To store the modules, premises and personnel are needed, which would hardly have been found. Secondly, in sea conditions it is a huge problem to keep the connectors and wiring unused in operation. And it will come out at the time of installation of the module, which will drag on indefinitely Even the withdrawal of an aircraft from storage is a big problem. What can we say about the ship?
    And project 22160 is rather a failure. That is, it is possible to find an application, but it was not worth building.
  17. Wherret
    Wherret 25 November 2021 13: 22
    0
    Why have ships with 6000 miles of cruising range in the Black Sea?
    1. link
      link 26 November 2021 10: 55
      0
      Drive to Mediterranean and the Red Sea.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. keleg
    keleg 25 November 2021 15: 23
    -3
    There is a very interesting option for the use of these ships - armament with sea patrolling drones KUB-UAV, the naval version of which is promised by the end of this year.
    For point operations, the MTR in the DMZ is the very thing, a large runway and hangars, many cabins for operators and very interesting opportunities.
    1. Very kind
      Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 07
      0
      Quote: keleg
      For point operations, the MTR in the DMZ is the very thing, a large runway and hangars, many cabins for operators and very interesting opportunities.

      Volodya, have you pushed yourself to carry your heresy to court? wink
      Your son-in-law of the "special" type has already written on the Abaza - the vert provided them with an ALIEN.
      There is NO space (despite the cargo deck).
      Cabins, yes, soft.
      And the gym.
      Only here no speed, no seaworthiness, no weapons.
      Well troubles with which they have become very afraid to let go far.
      And with whom mriyas about "long-term ocean patrols" disappeared into a mirage.
  20. seziomoff.s
    seziomoff.s 25 November 2021 19: 10
    -1
    If there was a body, you can always re-equip. Why invest big money at this stage? He copes with the assigned tasks, the stock for modernization is huge, you can land an attack or anti-submarine helicopter. Consider money, you don't need to hammer in nails with a microscope.
    1. bk0010
      bk0010 27 November 2021 18: 00
      0
      Quote: seziomoff.s
      If there was a body, you can always re-equip
      It is forbidden. This is not a computer game. Even sharpening for a modular design does not guarantee, but gives a chance.
  21. Very kind
    Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 36
    0
    and how this SCAM began -
    Deadushka Mitrich #01.03.2014 23: 47
    Generally all the story with this proZhEkt has a frankly punching scent of a railway station toilet, which has long been uncleaned by a local zolotar by a prosecutor In the Green Valley, a certain metal structure is frantically laid, proudly called a new patrol ship, and not anyhow, but not [censored], [censored], or ... blah blah modular, cheap and so on. Wherein, ATTENTION, there is neither a technical project, nor, accordingly, examinations of the Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense and the Central Research Institute of Krylov, nor competitive procedures preceding all this action, mandatory, it seems like recently... ... Modules are fairy tales for those who did not play enough Lego in childhood. In short, this [censored] is full of it, comrades!
    Since the fleet is desperate to get something cheap from the industry, then continue to sculpt 20380, only without the Uranos and Vignettes, leave room for them only for the future, but throw out [censored] Fourke (incidentally shooting everyone who had attitude towards him), replacing it with the good old "Positive". Leave the 630 and "Dirk" or something "cortical-like". Instead of "Zarya", something cheaper, like MGK, one hell of a few miles, the difference in range does not play pianos. Leave the car 49, it is smoking, and [censored] with it. Here's a reduction in price, and serial production, otherwise the zoo will be bred again, and they will wonder what to feed it!


    http://www.balancer.ru/g/p3385633
  22. Very kind
    Very kind 25 November 2021 21: 37
    -1
    and a bit more harsh realities ...
    John Fisher #15.03.2014 13: 10
    PS Well, here's a comparison for speed.
    We take an almost complete analogue of the construction of Project 22160, which is serially built corvettes of Project 11661 "Gepard" of Zelenodolsk Design Bureau. It is slightly longer and slightly larger in displacement (102 m against 94 m and about 2000 tons against 1500-1800 tons). Their maximum speeds are also close and amount to 30 knots. It would seem that the power of the power plant should be very close for them, because it is precisely selected for a given maximum speed.
    So, the CODOG installation has been announced for Cheetah and two turbines operating at 11000 kW (14500 hp) are operating at full speed, which in total is 22000 kW. At 22160, the designer’s website stated that the installation has a capacity of up to 25000 kW! It turns out that for the same speed at the same displacement, you need to buy and place a power plant at 13,5% more powerful! Those. just with one stroke of a pen under someone’s exhibition verbiage, we just stupidly raised our operating costs for fuel at least 10%! Fuel costs the same for ships of different classes. And what in return? Why will we pay every 10% more expensive? With beautiful words from the exhibition, will we please ourselves when the entire nose end is flooded with dense streams of spray to the wheelhouse glasses? And if winter and icing? You will have to reduce the speed to the smallest, even if no one needs to work on the tank ...


    http://www.balancer.ru/g/p3402631

    John Fisher #15.03.2014 13: 27
    There was also a high superstructure at 22460, but this did not help, and in the advertising form, the joyful and excited paper factory maremans captured their adventures in the Gulf of Finland (!!!), when they flooded the glass of the wheelhouse several times a minute for many seconds to full loss of visibility ... even the windshield wipers did not save from the continuous stream of water pouring down the windows ... Look at what cutouts they made in the forecastle bulwark from the second order! If there were no flooding in fresh weather, then they would have limited themselves to slotted cuts for draining small masses of water, and so they had to struggle with a full bath of water ...



    sam7 #15.03.2014 13: 43
    Maybe the numbers on the Internet lie, because it turns out not even 13,5, but at least 25% (more power with less displacement, according to the Admiralty formula D in the degree of 2 / 3).
    It’s hard to do this. Maybe 22160 actually has a higher speed?
    Although, after the panama with LK25 you can no longer be surprised at anything.
  23. The comment was deleted.
  24. eehnie
    eehnie 26 November 2021 02: 21
    -1
    With modular ships, the most powerful combination will dominate towards the end because it will provide the most benefit from the hull built.

    I think Project 22160 and Project 23550 will be armed with Caliber missiles, making them warships. Changing the module may have some costs and may take some time, but given the current situation, I believe that this is the cheapest and most effective solution for increasing the durability of a combat fleet compared to upgrading other ships or building other ships.

    It is likely that the current situation with these ships in the role of less armed support patrol ships is not an optimal situation.

    (Automatically translated from English. Below is the original commentary in English)

    With modular ships by the end, the most powerful combination will dominate, because it will provide the best benefit from the built hull.

    I think the Project 22160 and the Project 23550 will be armed with Kalibr missiles making them combat ships. The change of module can have some cost and can take some time, but from the current situation I think is the cheapest and most effective solution, in order to increase the strenght of the combat fleet, compared to the modernization of other ships or with the construction of other ships.

    Likely the current situation with these ships in the role of less armed patrol auxiliary ships, is not the optimal situation.
  25. Vdi73
    Vdi73 26 November 2021 04: 58
    +1
    It is not invented for the conduct of a global war at sea, its tasks are protection and monitoring. With this approach, one can regret why rubber boats are not equipped with "calibers". It is necessary to regret that the country does not build modern, powerful surface cruisers
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 November 2021 13: 26
      +2
      Quote: Vdi73
      It is not invented for the conduct of a global war at sea, its tasks are protection and monitoring.

      The problem is that 22160 is suitable for protection and monitoring only in the scope of the tasks of a border patrol ship. But in the scope of the tasks of the Navy ship - no.
      Therefore, the Navy has a slightly deeper security task than the SOBR. For the Navy, "protection" is an OVR. And the OVR is anti-submarine and mine defense.
      Well, plus the OVR ships should have at least some kind of air defense - on the basis of "fighting off a pair of anti-ship missiles that flew through the coastal air defense."
  26. IC
    IC 26 November 2021 08: 20
    +1
    In the classical sense, these are ships for the naval forces of the border troops. But for the Black Sea, they had opponents from the side of the neighboring state's naval forces in the person of the former American boats Island.
  27. Vadim Kukhtiev
    Vadim Kukhtiev 26 November 2021 10: 26
    -2
    this thing can carry a helicopter, which is no longer a bad thing, given a sensible universal helicopter with a radar anti-submarine torpedo weapon and the ability to carry anti-ship missiles.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 November 2021 13: 32
      +3
      Quote: Vadim Kukhtiev
      this thing can carry a helicopter, which is no longer a bad thing, given a sensible universal helicopter with a radar anti-submarine torpedo weapon and the ability to carry anti-ship missiles.

      The problem is that this thing can only carry a search and rescue helicopter. But anti-submarine is already in question.
      Because basing an anti-submarine helicopter means storing weapons for it on a ship and attaching such weapons to a helicopter. So, in the famous photo 22160 on the take-off site and in front of the hangar, the arms of the armament lift (similar to those in photo 20380) were not found.
  28. link
    link 26 November 2021 10: 52
    0
    Probably, it is not necessary to make universal ships, but a universal weapon. So that, from one shipborne installation, it is equally effective to hit coastal targets, both air and sea, with the same type of missile.
  29. musorg
    musorg 26 November 2021 12: 14
    -1
    How many people write but the same thing, don't you get bored? As soon as the modular weapons will be handed over then write!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 November 2021 13: 38
      +2
      Quote: musorg
      How many people write but the same thing, don't you get bored? As soon as the modular weapons will be handed over then write!

      The decision to build 22160 was made 7 (seven) years ago. The lead ship was delivered to the fleet 3 (three) years ago. The fourth ship of the project is undergoing trials.
      How long can we wait for the modules? And most importantly - where to put them, if the largest and most convenient bow mounting place on the ships ordered by the Ministry of Defense has already been taken?
  30. Red_Graphic
    Red_Graphic 26 November 2021 13: 16
    +1
    "The missile armament of the corvette consists of eight Igla-S or Verba MANPADS." - out of 8 Portable Anti-Aircraft Missile Complexes? Why 8? Doesn't it fit anymore? If such authors, and many commentators, bothered themselves with viewing the exercises, and not just stupid reading Wikipedia, they would have noticed that on the ships they indicated, during the exercises, during the development of the "air defense missile launch", no sailors with MANPADS did not go out on deck)))
  31. bugagich
    bugagich 27 November 2021 10: 23
    0
    it is surprising to read this if it was already discussed 10 years ago. and even then it was clear that modularity is possible only in the unification of weapons (for example, VPU), but not this nonsense. and somehow they kept silent that we began to suffer this fierce "garbage" much later than our Western friends. which by that time clearly showed all the delusional undertaking.
  32. Dimax-nemo
    Dimax-nemo 27 November 2021 22: 18
    -1
    The fleet "cut off" the ships of the border guards, that's all there was. Instead of a "module" they will stick something when they feel like it, unlike the "right" Americans and Germans, riding with an elastic band from panties or tights is our national sport. Yes, it will not be a full-fledged corvette. But from the "pure" PSKR and this would not have happened.
  33. Glagol1
    Glagol1 28 November 2021 15: 45
    -1
    If a container 2x4 Caliber can be delivered to this ship quickly, it will work out quite well. But, of course, this ship has no air defense, so it will be able to operate with Calibers from remote waters, where the enemy airborne missile defense system will not reach. As a patrolman, in my opinion, too big. Compromise in everything.
  34. svoit
    svoit 29 November 2021 09: 52
    0
    Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
    and the same tasks were set for the construction of the DMZ FLEET (the far ocean zone

    It's just not clear why? The country will not have enough resources for this for a long time, it is quite enough if it is possible to control about 1000 km from the coast, as far as the support of the coastal forces is enough
  35. OpmoDoigy
    OpmoDoigy 29 November 2021 13: 34
    0
    Even during the Second World War, patrol boats had torpedo armament. Remember the movie "The Secret Fairway".