The first in anything: French army revolvers

106

You are my hammer, weapon military; With you I have smitten the nations, and with you I have destroyed kingdoms.

The book of the prophet Jeremiah, 51:20

History firearms. It is always interesting to compare something with something. Because it is comparative information that allows you to get fairly objective information from different points of view. The same goes for firearms. Here on VO we have already written about what revolvers the German army was armed with up to the adoption of the P.08 pistol, wrote about American Colts and our domestic Smith-Wessons and revolvers. Was there anything comparable to our Russian weapons in other European countries? What were the officers and soldiers of special forces armed with at the turn of the two centuries - the XIX and XX? Today our story on this topic will be devoted to French revolvers.


A still from the film Lafayette Squadron (2006). Ace pilot Cassidy hands two young American pilots the 1892 Lebel revolvers so that they can ... shoot themselves in a blazing airplane!


And this is exactly this revolver. If you can't see him very well in the previous photo, then you can clearly see both his handle and the drum!

Well, our story should begin with ... the defeat of France in the Franco-Prussian war. For a start, in 1872, the country introduced universal military service for all its male citizens, and they also began to pay much more attention to the training of soldiers. And they figured out how to do it in a very original way. Special handkerchiefs-instructions were printed according to the type of printed instructions, only in color, which depicted various types of army weapons, the rules for first aid in case of injury, and even the basics of tactics. It was very interesting to look at it, and besides, this very "reference book" did not take up much space, since the fabric on which they were printed was rather thin.




Revolver "Shamelo-Delvin" М1873 and cartridges for it. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Then a competition was announced to create a new army revolver. The requirements for it were as follows: a cartridge with a central engagement capsule, a double-acting trigger mechanism, with the corresponding general requirements for reliability, ease of use and, of course, the low cost of mass production. The competition presented revolvers Lefoshe Mle 1870 ("Marine model"), as well as the development of Galland, Perrin and the company "Chamelo-Delvin", whose revolver was already in service in neighboring Switzerland. And it was the revolver of this company that became the winner of this competition, after which in 1873 it was adopted by the French army under the name "Revolver infantry officer model of 1873". In addition to the army, they were also armed with the police, non-commissioned officers of the cavalry, artillerymen and the entire navy.


Revolver "Shamelo-Delvin" М1873 or МАС1873. Commercial model. Mechanism device. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be


Trigger and "Abadi's door". Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

The revolver was designed by Jean Chamelo (gunsmith) and Henri Gustave Delvin (infantry captain), who jointly founded their enterprise. The 1873x11R cartridge with a rim was also created specifically for the 17 revolver. He was equipped with black powder and had a lead bullet.


MAC1873. Right view. "Marine Model". Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

The revolver was in production from 1874 to 1887. Outwardly, it looks very simple, there is no bluing: length 240 mm, barrel length 115 mm, weight without cartridges - 1040 g. The barrel is partly octahedral, partly cylindrical. There are four grooves in the barrel. The sights are very simple. To fill the drum with cartridges, there is an "Abadi door" on the right side. The six-shot revolver, in this regard, does not differ from our "Smith and Wesson". But it is discharged in the same way as the revolver, that is, one by one, by working with a ramrod-extractor.

The handle had a ring for attaching a revolving belt.

An interesting feature of the revolver, and perhaps the only one, was the lid on the left of the case. It was removed, opening access to the trigger, so it was easy to lubricate it, as well as to replace some parts. The durability of the revolver, like that of the same revolver, was great. Some examples were operated for 100 years, with the French police and gendarmes using it until 1962. The weapon was reliable and simple, a little more complicated than a hammer. True, it was believed that his cartridge was weak, but nothing more.

Revolver "Chamelo-Delvin" М1873 was also produced in Liege. Officially, it was produced exclusively at the enterprise "d'Armes de Saint-Etienne" (MAS). 325 standard models, 000 officer models (35), 000 revolvers for the Marine Corps (1874 revolvers in 14) and officers (000 Marine revolvers, 13) were produced between 188 and 1873. about 1566 more copies of 1874 chambered for 1874 mm with smokeless powder were produced in 1886 and 7000. By the way, the difference between the soldier's and the officer's models was only in ... finishing! Interestingly, civilian models of this revolver were produced in Liege and Saint-Etienne by various weapons manufacturers until 1873. Moreover, they were also produced for .11,73 and .1886 caliber cartridges.


Experienced revolver 1885

In 1885, on the basis of the old revolver, an experimental model of 11 mm caliber was created, which was supposed to replace the Mle 1873 revolver, which was considered morally obsolete. In its design, in particular, there were some new technical solutions borrowed from Swiss revolvers, including the "Abadi door" - a simple but ingenious device. In 1886, several of these revolvers were tested along with the Smith and Wesson revolvers, the German M1879 and its own model, the Le Service Technique de l'Artillerie, STA. The tests ended quite successfully, and the Mle 1885 was recommended for adoption. But it was decided to reduce the caliber of the revolver to 8 mm in order to unify it with the caliber of the newly adopted French rifle of the Lebel system.


"Service Model" 1892. National Museum of the First World War, Kansas City

The fact is that when the production of the Lebel rifle of 1886 began, the French manufacturers, as well as the military, faced the problem of using ... defective rifle barrels. The barrels were long, so there was a lot of scrap, and in order to compensate for these losses, it was decided to adopt an 8-mm revolver, which was done in 1892. At the same time, the black powder was replaced with smokeless powder in the cartridges. True, now it was a purely officer's revolver, also double-acting. The non-commissioned officers were left with their old Mle 1873, fortunately there were a lot of them.


Diagram of the revolver Mle 1892. From the French manual

These revolvers also entered the navy, as evidenced by the brand - "anchor" on the butt plate of the handle of some samples. Their total number is estimated at about 15, and these revolvers were produced in the years 000-1895-1896-1899-1900-1903. The only foreign country that has been equipped with this revolver is Romania, but it is still unknown whether this weapon was produced by the MAS enterprise, in the French civilian market or in Liege.


The same revolver - "naval model", nickel-plated. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Themselves revolvers "Saint-Etienne" Mle1892 (so it is more correct to call it) was produced about 350 copies.


Advertising of the revolver "Saint-Etienne" Mle1892 in Russia

Officially, the new model of the revolver was named like this: "Pistol Revolveur Modèle 1892" (or "Modèle d'Ordnance"), and the troops became known as "Lebel", although, and this is the most interesting, Colonel Nicolas Lebel himself had nothing to do with the creation of this revolver didn't have! The revolver itself appeared on the basis of an intermediate model of the 8-mm MAS 1887 revolver, a modification of the MAS 1885 revolver, which was originally adapted for an 8-mm cartridge, but then was recognized as unsuccessful and modified by the designers of the Saint-Etienne plant. The Lebel became the first European revolver to use a hinged drum, which significantly reduced reloading times. The drum was tilted to the right, the spent cartridges were removed using the extractor rod located along the axis of the drum, in the closed position the extractor was under the barrel. The door, combined with the trigger guard, was also provided on it. It leaned back towards the barrel and made it possible to service its mechanism with greater convenience than many other revolvers.


Revolver "Saint-Etienne" 1892 - release of 1904. Covering - bluing. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

The first in anything: French army revolvers
Cartridges 8 × 27 mm. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

The main drawback of "Lebel" when used in close combat was its cartridge. He clearly lacked power, and even at short distances a bullet, hitting the enemy, often only knocked him down, without causing serious harm, unless it was hitting a vital organ. However, this shortcoming did not greatly affect the popularity of the revolver during the First World War. Interestingly, the new revolver was 30% lighter than the Mle 1873. And besides, if the Mle 1873 cost 62,96 francs, then the revolver of 1892 was only 56,3 francs. So the benefits were obvious!


"Saint-Etienne" in a holster. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be


With the drum folded back and already loaded ... Photo by Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

The soldiers at the front more appreciated its reliability and reliability in the most difficult conditions. Be that as it may, it was "Lebel" that became the first revolver in Europe with a folding drum, and soon it began to be copied in Spain and Belgium. It was produced until 1924. It is simply surprising why in Russia, having taken the barrel from Lebel's rifle for an 8-mm cartridge for a new rifle, at the same time they did not take into service a French revolver, or, at least, did not create the same one based on it. In any case, with approximately the same performance characteristics as that of the revolver, it would be at least slightly more convenient in reloading ...


"Ready to fight!" Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

TTX revolver arr. 1892:
Overall length: mm 235
Barrel length: 118,5 mm
Cartridge: 8 × 27 mm
Initial speed of the bullet: 225 m / s
Weight: 0,792 kg
Drum capacity: 6 rounds
106 comments
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  1. +18
    20 November 2021 06: 23
    Good morning everyone and have a nice day! smile

    Thanks to Vyacheslav for continuing the short-barreled topic, I liked the article. good

    ... it would be at least slightly more convenient to reload ...


    Yes, not just a little, but significantly, if not radically. While you are digging with the "Nagant", your head can be taken down thirty times, which is just a little bit here. smile


    1. +11
      20 November 2021 06: 39
      Hello everyone, thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich for the article!
      Uncle Kostya, maybe you can explain the idea of ​​the Author
      It's just amazing why in Russia, having taken the barrel from Lebel's rifle for an 8-mm cartridge for a new rifle, at the same time, they did not take into service a French revolver

      To be honest, I did not understand what the borrowing was. The caliber is unambiguously different, 7,62 and 8 mm. How many grooves and how to cut the barrel?
      Best regards and thanks in advance, Vlad!
      1. +12
        20 November 2021 06: 43
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        To be honest, I did not understand what the borrowing was.

        Our three-line was originally made on the basis of the barrel of a Lebel rifle. That's all. Then it was changed to 7,62, but all the parameters were retained. The order to Mosin directly says: based on Lebel's barrel ... By the way, the Nagant brought the first 8-mm rifle to Russia too!
        1. +6
          20 November 2021 14: 13
          "caliber" 8 mm "that is, it almost became a" Eurocaliber ", if we recall the Mauser Gever and its caliber: 7,92 is very close to 8mm, but it did not grow together
      2. +9
        20 November 2021 07: 04
        Hello, Vlad! smile

        Here's what we managed to find in a nutshell.

        In December 1889, Captain Mosin received an assignment from the GAU Commission: “Guided by the Nagant gun, design a shotgun of a batch system (that is, with cartridges from a" pack "- clip) for 5 rounds, but use the bolt of your system in this gun, well and a converted barrel from a Lebel rifle. "
        1. +5
          20 November 2021 14: 47
          Thank you very much!
    2. +10
      20 November 2021 06: 40
      You have found a good circuit, thanks!
      1. +8
        20 November 2021 07: 22
        I'm always glad to participate! wink
        1. +5
          20 November 2021 14: 34
          Kostya, I was interested in: "Saint Etienne" in a holster ": what kind of pocket on top? For cartridges, but why did not others use it or did the patent interfere?
          1. +6
            20 November 2021 14: 42
            Yes, for cartridges. "Others" also used it with might and main. Below are the Nagan holsters.

            The rest are too lazy to climb to look for. request smile
    3. +19
      20 November 2021 06: 54
      Yes, not just a little, but significantly, if not radically. While you dig deeper with the "Nagant"
      did not take into service even a French revolver
      I think that those who said that in the history of the adoption of the "Nagan" there is an obvious corruption component, as they would say now, are still right. Good morning everyone and the same good weekend!
      1. +13
        20 November 2021 07: 05
        Quote: Crowe
        I think that those who said that in the history of the adoption of the "Nagan" there is an obvious corruption component, as they would say now, are still right. Good morning everyone and the same good weekend!

        Perhaps you `re right! I had the opportunity to compare Nagan and Smith-weight (Russian) at the shooting range. The first has only one advantage (easier). Well, the cloud of smoke from the shot is much smaller, but here we must remember that there is, as it were, not a quarter of a century difference between the designs.
        1. +16
          20 November 2021 07: 22
          Well, as they say - not caught, not a thief ... I cannot bring audio and video recordings as confirmation due to my lack of them, but the story with the competition seemed to many then, as if it were softer, not entirely transparent or something ... Here and the well-known connections of brother Leon with the tall faces of the whitest bone and blue blood, and a lot more, well, it's okay, take the competition itself - Colonel Mosin, fully loaded with mastering the production of a rifle, clearly participated in this competition to get away - having presented some something that has not been completed, or just a fake. He didn’t count on something serious, he was simply told to participate - and he saluted ... A couple more options (the Kuhn-Zalyubovsky and Uainen models) were attempts to remake the good old Smith-Wesson, there were also a couple of extremely imperfect automatic Well, where are the luminaries - the Colts, Smith-Wessons and other Webley Scots? They were simply not interested in this competition. With such a "wealth" of choice, it is no longer surprising that the Nagant won. And the officers who did not like their native Nagant were graciously allowed to buy pistols or revolvers of foreign models at their own expense - as well as cartridges for them.
          1. +12
            20 November 2021 07: 38
            They were simply not interested in this competition.


            Strange, this is pure profit! I mean the won competition. request
            1. +15
              20 November 2021 07: 57
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Strange, this is pure profit!

              Obviously, they knew in advance that they could not win!
              1. +13
                20 November 2021 08: 01
                It is difficult to find another explanation. But I wonder how our wise men from GAU could pass such a shark as "Colt" past the money? laughing
                1. +13
                  20 November 2021 09: 23
                  Yes, they would have found a way. Well, we did not have methods for Kostya Saprykina GAU - what they wanted, so they did. Here I would have adopted the "piper", but then they did not listen to me: "revolver, revolver." This is what the life-giving rollback does.
                  1. +13
                    20 November 2021 09: 27
                    This is what the life-giving rollback does.

                    Yes, professionals, what can I say, science ... laughing

                2. +10
                  20 November 2021 14: 29
                  In general, a dark story: why Colt did not participate in the competition. To say that Leon Nagan adjusted the "paper lamb", but Colt would have enough money for 2 contests.
                  "they knew in advance that they would not win" I am a little hesitant here: if it were necessary to "Colt" all GAU with giblets bought and did not oyknul.
                  There was probably another reason for which we no longer recognize.
                  1. +8
                    20 November 2021 14: 34
                    So there was not one Colt drove by, Smith and Wesson also boarded another tram. request smile
      2. +14
        20 November 2021 07: 33
        ... in the history of the adoption of the "Nagan", there is an obvious corruption component, as they would say now.

        I totally agree with you, the story with the "Nagant" smacks of something.
        "Nagant" is positioned as a 3-line revolver model 1895, while the revolver "Saint-Etienne" arr. 1892, i.e. even before the adoption of the "Nagant" into service, the "Saint-Etoienne" was already mass-produced and was adopted by the French army. Well, I won't talk about the advantages of the Frenchman, and everything is clear.
        And when the worst is bought instead of the best, the question involuntarily arises: who benefits from it?
        1. +5
          20 November 2021 12: 42
          Wouldn't the "Russified Frenchman" become even worse because of the decrease in the caliber of the ammunition?
          With 8mm, he was already "a little not lethal"!
          1. +7
            20 November 2021 12: 55
            And what would it be worse than "Nagan"?
            1. +4
              20 November 2021 13: 08
              The text indicates a weak effect of the bullet on the target!
              "When shooting from a short distance, it often knocked down a dream ..."
              Traumat, not a weapon of war!
              1. +7
                20 November 2021 14: 08
                And the French are so stupid that they immediately took it into service. This is exactly what is hard to believe.
                1. +5
                  20 November 2021 15: 30
                  Everywhere it is written that in "energy terms" the shot pulled at 200 J and gave the bullet a speed of no higher than 225 m / s.
                  With dimensions of 8x27, this cartridge is equated to 7,65x17 Browning!
                  Probably the gunpowder with which the cartridges were equipped at the end of the 19th century was not capable of more. But the progress of gunpowders did not stand still and the French could make changes to the filling of the cartridge.
                  But information about this is not given!
                  But they write that the French police used these revolvers until the 60s of the 20th century!
                  They were apparently satisfied with the fact that the bullet did not ricochet and did not greatly "spoil the skin" of the criminal.
                  1. +6
                    20 November 2021 16: 00
                    What the hell are these idiots writing to me !!!
                    I cannot send you a reply with completely neutral text. A window appears that my text contains something invalid.
                    That one thing, then another - not a damn thing can not establish the normal operation of the site, sidadmins .... bdin. negative
        2. +2
          20 November 2021 18: 52
          hi
          With the adoption of the "revolver" the story is well described, but without "holding the candle" it is difficult to assert about corruption.
          IMHO - the revolver was accepted in order to close the issue with the Mosin rifle (aka Mosin-Nagant) in the Nagant part. For this, the competition was - "why recharge quickly, we still do not have time, if necessary STRAIGHT NOW", the revolver was wrapped in paper - "everyone has a gas breakthrough between the drum and the frame - but we do not have" and so on ....
    4. +9
      20 November 2021 07: 31
      Good morning, Uncle Kostya.
      Saturday was a success. At least morning))
      Special thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich.
      By the way, to be honest, I didn’t think that revolvers have so many differences. It always seemed to me that this is a design worked out to maximum simplicity, differing only in caliber, cartridge and all sorts of decorations)))
      1. +12
        20 November 2021 07: 41
        Hi, Igor! hi

        You haven't seen this yet. laughing


        1. +9
          20 November 2021 07: 45
          Eh ... There are many, Horatio's friend in the world ...
          The thoughts of gunsmiths are wonderful.
          1. +7
            20 November 2021 08: 04
            Quote: Leader of the Redskins
            Eh ... There are many, Horatio's friend in the world.

            HOW Chief soldier Why are you lagging behind? When will you write a new article ??? bully
            1. +9
              20 November 2021 08: 10
              How ... I think about a month later. Now on a business trip, I don't have my own computer at hand, but it will be very inconvenient from the phone)))
              Thank you for not forgetting)
              1. +6
                20 November 2021 08: 14
                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                How ... I think about a month later.

                Well, we are waiting. Yes ! Leader, create an intrigue - tell me the topic of the article ... hint, let's play a guessing game wink
        2. +9
          20 November 2021 07: 47
          Cool pukalka good ! Greetings Konstantin hi ... Today is just a holiday of some kind, so many articles on history and weapons.
          1. +10
            20 November 2021 07: 48
            Hi Aleksey! smile
            Yes, sometimes thick, sometimes empty ... request
            1. +9
              20 November 2021 07: 53
              Quote: Sea Cat

              Yes, sometimes thick, sometimes empty ... request

              Yeah, eyes run up ... Edward wrote a very useful article! Well, there is a lot of Shpakovsky (with all Respect) today! good
        3. +10
          20 November 2021 10: 39
          Well, why scare us with the creation of a crazy Pakistani gunsmith-self-fake with the pseudonym Steam Punk? We drunken realists prefer weird but real things!
          1. +11
            20 November 2021 11: 12
            You want realizm - I have them!
            Mateba autorevolver

            Mateba MTR-8

            Mateba M-6 Unica
            PS Volodya hi , you sign what you post, I just joked with Punk. smile drinks
            1. +8
              20 November 2021 13: 05
              Quote: Sea Cat
              you sign what you post

              Well, sss ...! In order !
              1.And what to spread right away? Where is the intrigue then? wink And where to "suffer" with pleasure? request I posted the Pettengill revolver (Pettengill. Patent 1856). It is interesting because it is a conditionally hammerless revolver (or in-hammer ...)!


              Also released under the name

              2.Mateba -revOlver famous, but eerily modern! We are canned food ... editors (!) Have a penchant for old things! So that everything is .......
              1. +7
                20 November 2021 14: 16
                In! Now truncated as it should: the wolves are safe and the shepherds are drunk. laughing drinks



                I liked the artist. smile
                1. +6
                  20 November 2021 15: 20

                  This is Futuristic bude!

                  And this is Easier! Yes
        4. +10
          20 November 2021 11: 26
          You haven't seen this yet
          Or this
          1. +10
            20 November 2021 11: 41
            Yeah, the Van Helsing system. laughing

            1. +9
              20 November 2021 12: 42
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Yeah, the Van Helsing system

              Only, it looks like a remake! "Replica"! (on the first picture"...)
              1. +7
                20 November 2021 12: 56
                "Replica"


                The people are having fun. laughing
              2. +8
                20 November 2021 13: 07
                No, this is a premium
            2. +3
              20 November 2021 19: 42
              Here is a very real bow with a clip
            3. Fat
              +2
              22 November 2021 00: 13
              Yeah, of such a thing, only Bianca managed to calm down. The thing turned out to be useful, but the ram looks like an overkill as a decoration recourse
              1. +1
                22 November 2021 00: 26
                Hi Andrew! smile
                Bianca needed to be pacified by another Thing, then he wouldn't have to kill. wink laughing
                And decorating some weapons with a ram's head has been a tradition since Roman times, but the artists overdid it a little with a crossbow.
                1. Fat
                  +2
                  22 November 2021 01: 12
                  You will not be spoiled
      2. +7
        20 November 2021 07: 55
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        revolvers have so many differences.

        About it will be ...
    5. +7
      20 November 2021 08: 43
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Yes, not just a little, but significantly, if not radically

      we are talking about reloading, not disassembling-assembling
      1. +7
        20 November 2021 09: 06
        we are talking about reloading, not disassembling-assembling


        Yes? Seriously? laughing And what did I write about?
        While you are digging with the "Nagant", your head can be demolished thirty times ... smile

        Well, if you practice assembling and disassembling service weapons during a battle, then it's understandable. request
        1. +4
          20 November 2021 09: 14
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Yes? Seriously? And what did I write about?

          you illustrated your words with a diagram directly related to the complete disassembly of the revolver.
          so make all claims to your way of expressing your thoughts.
          my regards hi
          1. +7
            20 November 2021 09: 23
            Is it the second time to quote my text that preceded the diagram?
            Thank God, except for you, everyone understood everything correctly. With which I congratulate you. hi
            1. +7
              20 November 2021 09: 25
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Is it the second time to quote my text that preceded the diagram?

              I understood you
              the text was not related to the schema, and the schema was not related to the text
              Quote: Sea Cat
              except you, everyone understood everything correctly

              I don't have the habit of speaking for everyone
              but for me personally it was not obvious
              just as unusual is this presentation of information in one comment
              all the best
              1. +9
                20 November 2021 09: 32
                the text was not related to the schema, and the schema was not related to the text


                Both had to do with the Saint-Etienne revolver.
                Anyway, all this is not important. hi
                Let's smile better. smile

                1. +8
                  20 November 2021 11: 29
                  Crane-box locking system
                  1. +8
                    20 November 2021 11: 35
                    Exactly! Plumber's service weapon. laughing

                    Hello Anton! hi
    6. +10
      20 November 2021 10: 36
      I join! All health and good! After all the nasty news articles, Olegovich does not forget to please! hi
      1. +10
        20 November 2021 10: 37
        And yes! Comments and pictures in the discussion are great! good
  2. +11
    20 November 2021 07: 09
    Thanks! Informative...
    Found:

    Uncomplicated design. It is not surprising that different "homemade products", having a sufficient level of qualifications, created a semblance for the criminal world (in Soviet times).
  3. +5
    20 November 2021 07: 12
    Shpakovsky
    You are growing above yourself.
    You get interesting
    Respect and respect
    1. +8
      20 November 2021 07: 21
      Quote: kytx
      You are growing above yourself.
      You get interesting
      Respect and respect

      I've been writing on VO since ... for 6 years now. During this time, you can grow by writing almost every day.
      1. +7
        20 November 2021 07: 34
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, they dedicate poetry to you.
        1. +5
          20 November 2021 07: 54
          Quote: Astra wild2
          Poems are dedicated to you.

          White?
          1. +1
            20 November 2021 21: 29
            Quote: kalibr
            White?

            Makhnovists !!! :)))
  4. +8
    20 November 2021 07: 33
    Colleagues, Vyacheslav Olegovich, good morning
    I have a book: "Small arms" I saw there: Lebel's rifle and a revolver named after him.
    , Able constructor
    1. +8
      20 November 2021 07: 53
      Quote: Astra wild2
      Able constructor

      He is not a constructor, or rather not quite a constructor. N. Lebel was the head of the Army Rifle School. The bullet he created was named after Lebel, then it was transferred to the entire cartridge (and 8-mm caliber), and within the framework of the commission - despite the "friendly protests" of Lebel himself - the entire structure was named after him. Lebel, as the head of the rifle school, led the army tests of the rifle, after which the name became widespread (but still unofficial). He himself stated that the greatest contribution to the creation of the rifle was made by the designer Colonel Gra. Such is an interesting story.
      1. +7
        20 November 2021 09: 56
        The surname of Gra, as the creator of the weapon, has survived in history
        1. +3
          20 November 2021 15: 33
          Quote: Astra wild2
          The surname of Gra, as the creator of the weapon, has survived in history

          Quote: vladcub
          "brought in by the designer Colonel Gra" in this case Lebel was a decent man.

          Basile Gras and his rifle
          Published on January 2, 2019.
          In honor of the birthday of the famous gunsmith, we talk about his role in the rearmament of the French army with weapons chambered for a unitary cartridge
          https://kalashnikov.media/article/weapons/bazil-gra-i-ego-vintovka
      2. +2
        20 November 2021 14: 45
        "brought in by the designer Colonel Gra" in this case Lebel was a decent man.
        What can not be said about Luger
  5. +8
    20 November 2021 07: 34
    Respect to the author!
    Now I read all of his articles in a row. I learn a lot of new things, although I considered myself a completely competent amateur gunsmith ... smile
    1. Fat
      0
      22 November 2021 00: 50
      When I first saw Berdanka, to put it mildly, he was fucking ... what a size! Asho held the cartridges in his hands .... Impressive! 4 and two tenths of a line of almost half an inch ... recourse
  6. +10
    20 November 2021 08: 12
    The first in something

    Oh, you are not fair, Vyacheslav Olegovich,
    and Chanel? Gaston Louis Vuitton? Cardin? good
    After all, a croissant?
    hi
    1. +5
      20 November 2021 12: 26
      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
      After all, a croissant?

      This is an article about the shooter. More precisely, not even about the shooter in general, but about revolvers. And here, perhaps, after Lefoshe, these are all achievements.
      1. +5
        20 November 2021 14: 40
        I'm just to dilute the seriousness of the discussions laughing
        With arms greetings,
        Edward
      2. 0
        20 November 2021 21: 27
        Quote: kalibr
        after Lefoshe these are all achievements.

        Hmm ... EMNIP Lebel is Europe's first magazine rifle chambered for smokeless powder. Is not it so?
        1. 0
          21 November 2021 07: 27
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Is not it so?

          Ivan! Well, the article is about pistols, not about rifles!
  7. +9
    20 November 2021 08: 14
    "According to some reports" during the Franco-Prussian War, the Chaspo needle rifle proved to be better than the Prussian Draise. So I would be wary of saying "at least in something the first"!
    1. +4
      20 November 2021 12: 27
      Quote: andrewkor
      So that I would be careful not to assert "at least in something the first"!

      An article about revolvers!
      1. +3
        20 November 2021 13: 59
        The phrase: "at least in something" suggests a broad interpretation. I remember the roar of the Olvers.
  8. +8
    20 November 2021 08: 26
    I, of course, agree - with the reloading of the "Nagan" problem (although whether this was considered a problem at that time in relation to the auxiliary weapon of the Russian officer is a question requiring some study) but 300 and 225 m / s initial speed, this is a significant difference, if not twist - in the second case, almost trauma.
    But it would probably be possible to switch to the PMV and to the "Nagant" mod. 1910 with folding drum
    1. +6
      20 November 2021 11: 17
      As can be seen from the advertisement in the article, a revolver of the 1892 model was sold in Russia under the Nagant cartridge, so there would be no difference in the speed of the bullet.
  9. +4
    20 November 2021 08: 30
    The revolver has six shots, in this respect it does not differ from our "Smith and Wesson"

    is this a snippet from a translated article?
    or does our Smith & Wesson imply a Russian model?
    1. +12
      20 November 2021 09: 18
      Apparently, here the author meant that "Smith and Wesson" was once adopted by us, in contrast to the samples provided in this article ... In 1886, production was established at the Imperial Tula Arms Factory, 15 years since the adoption of "Smith-Wesson" into service and 12 years since the development of the third sample. Most likely, the delay was due to the difficulties that arose in organizing mass production, it was more profitable to buy revolvers abroad than to establish its own production to the detriment of the production of the main small arms - a 4,2-line rifle of the 1871 model. The production of revolvers in the Russian Empire continued until 1897 g.
      At the very beginning of production in 1886, 311 revolvers were produced, in 1889 - already 6226. A total of 31435 Tula "Smith-Wessons" were manufactured. Some arms literature also mentions commercial releases of small-caliber "Smith and Wesson" revolvers Thule. The production of Smith-Wessons at the Imperial Tula Arms Factory was discontinued in 1898.
      1. +2
        20 November 2021 09: 29
        Quote: Crowe
        Apparently, here the author meant that "Smith and Wesson" was at one time adopted by us, in contrast to the samples provided in this article

        not quite clear
        if we are talking about a six-shooter, then, in my opinion, all models of Smith and Wesson revolvers of that period were six-shots.
        Why, in this case, focus the reader's attention on "our"?
        1. +9
          20 November 2021 11: 00
          in my opinion, all models of the Smith & Wesson revolvers of that period were six shots.



          Smith & Wesson .38 Single-Action, Second Model.
          Drum for 5 (FIVE) rounds.
          Years of production - 1876 - 1911.
          1. +3
            20 November 2021 13: 31
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Smith & Wesson .38 Single-Action, Second Model.
            Drum for 5 (FIVE) rounds.

            good
      2. +4
        20 November 2021 15: 13
        The classic of the American western, Louis Lamour, has an episode where the hero of the work, a gunfighter, is presented with a pair of revolvers as a sign of respect and gratitude. The gift made an extremely favorable impression - it was the Russians Smith and Wesson. It is believed that Lamour was scrupulous about the little things in these works.
    2. +6
      20 November 2021 12: 28
      Quote: Flood
      implies a Russian model?

      Yes! He was in service for a quarter of a century.
  10. +7
    20 November 2021 10: 45
    French gunsmiths are not only famous for the 19th century! The French can also show the revolvers of the next century!


    1. +5
      20 November 2021 12: 29
      We will talk about the next time in the next articles!
      1. +5
        20 November 2021 13: 11
        Quote: kalibr
        we will talk in the next articles!

        Sorry! "I lost my tongue," if we were talking about French revolvers! recourse
        1. +7
          20 November 2021 14: 38
          "Son! Ne lyz poperek dad's hell!" (with) laughing am drinks
      2. +6
        20 November 2021 14: 39
        Already on hold.
  11. +3
    20 November 2021 14: 55
    Comrades, here on the site the question has already been raised: "Commissioner Miklovan's revolver" and then the comrades assumed that he had: "Smith Wesson", and now I think. Perhaps he had: "Saint Etienne"?
    1. +3
      21 November 2021 19: 06
      revolver of Commissioner Miklovan "and then comrades assumed that he had:" Smith Wesson ", but now I think. Perhaps he had:" Saint Etienne "?


      No, this is the Smith-Wesson Victory. I mean, M1905 Military and Police wartime issue.
      You can compare the footage from the film yourself and, so to speak, nature. Pay attention to which side the barban leans back.
      Best regards,


      Start of the movie, shooting at the shooting range




      The end of the film. Reloading the revolver.


      Above "French", below - Smith & Wesson Military & Polic Victory


      Both revolvers with the drums unfolded
      1. 0
        2 December 2021 13: 24
        Thanks. He knows about the quality of figs, but visually Smith is a little prettier
  12. +1
    20 November 2021 20: 14
    Curious, but I still did not understand why the drum was thrown to the right. This is inconvenient for an ordinary, right-handed shooter.
    1. +1
      21 November 2021 07: 28
      The cavalrymen in France held him in their LEFT HAND. On the right was a SABER!
      1. +1
        21 November 2021 20: 18
        Wow! Indeed .. In the 1st Cavalry Nagant, it was also supposed to hold in the left hand! It turns out that the cavalry was the main customer of this rearmament.
  13. 0
    21 November 2021 18: 13
    Experienced revolver 1885

    Do not believe everything that is written in the sources you use. negative
    This is still a Swiss revolver of the 1882 model. This is also indicated by the inscription on the poster itself.

    Best regards,
  14. Fat
    0
    22 November 2021 01: 27
    You disgusting dads, gunsmiths, I would throw you for complete Happiness every day on an extra spring wassat