NATO ships were helpless

262

The first to shoot is the one who shoots first, the rest is invented as an excuse.
(A. Azolsky)

The absence of anti-ship missiles on modern ships of NATO countries has no worthy explanation.

Dear readers may doubt the veracity of the statement. Pointing to existing Naval Strike Missile (NSM), Exocet or AGM-84 Harpoon. However, there are no contradictions here. All of the above samples of anti-ship missiles appear as nondescript products against the background of domestic ZM55 "Onyx" or ZM80 "Mosquito". Any of the comparisons will show significant differences in one or several indicators at once (range and flight speed, size, warhead power). The differences are too noticeable to be ignored.




The destroyer "Defender" should be armed according to the project with eight anti-ship missiles "Harpoon".
Have you noticed the PU on its upper deck?

As if confirming the expressed doubts about the combat value of anti-ship missiles, Western fleets are in no hurry to place them on ships. Allocated regular places have been empty for many years. Even on navy United States, with its unlimited budget, destroyers go into service without any anti-ship weapons!

The question arises - what will be the actions of NATO ships when they meet a surface enemy? Defender vs. Gorshkov. Too unrealistic? Imagine any situation where it becomes necessary to shoot a ship.

If naval battles are forever a thing of the past, why do our ships keep the Onyxes and the anti-ship Caliber (ZM14) in service?

Is there any doubt that one of the main purposes of the Navy is to conduct combat operations at sea? Participation in confrontation with other fleets.

In Western countries, the subject of anti-ship missiles (ASM) was developed with a 15-year delay. There were reasons for this, which we will discuss below. Another moment is surprising. After half a century, none of the foreign developments came close to the domestic ones. For some reason, the anti-ship missiles themselves began to disappear from the range of weapons of modern ships.

Let's turn to stories.

David and Goliath


In February 1957, the destroyer Bedovy made the world's first launch of an anti-ship missile system from a surface carrier.

The ship's projectile "Pike" (laconically - KSShch) could deliver 620 kg of warhead to a distance of tens of kilometers. In practice, the distance was determined by means of target designation. 40 km with line of sight and up to 100 km when receiving control center from external sources.

The first value was almost twice the distance from which record shots of naval artillery were fired (for example, during the sinking of the Glories). The second meaning lay far beyond the capabilities of the largest caliber.

NATO ships were helpless

The plump silhouette of the "Pike", with antennas sticking out everywhere and traces of connectors, did not even try to follow the requirements of aerodynamics. An engine from a Yak-25 aircraft with a residual engine life of 5 hours was used as a cruise propulsion system.

The main thing is that it flew and could sink ships. A real weapon of the "Russian barbarians"!

"Pike" rushed over the Black Sea training ground near Feodosia, chopping up target boats and the skeletons of unfinished and decommissioned ships. The history of the creation of the KSSh refers to the mid-1950s, when the fleet of the "potential enemy" consisted of projects from the war years. In such conditions, the 600 kg warhead was found to be ineffective with a normal hit on the freeboard. KSShch had a detachable warhead. Thrown into the water near the target, it hit below the waterline. This is how the concept of this weapon looked.

The combat capabilities achieved were impressive. The new class of naval weapons was immediately developed in the interests of the USSR Navy.


Domestic anti-ship missiles have always combined a set of extreme parameters:

A) Long range. Due to the inability to come close to the US aircraft carrier groups.

B) In many cases, supersonic speed. The enemy was very difficult. The path to the target ran through the lines of the echeloned air defense.

C) Combat equipment capable of destroying thousands of tons of metal structures. The ship is an outstanding target.

To successfully complete the task, the principles of humanism had to be rejected. Each attack was worth too much effort. And every hit that was achieved had to leave behind hot consequences. Complex P-5 - warhead weight 870 kg. P-70 "Amethyst" - the warhead weighed a ton.

During the 1960s, the fleet received eight anti-ship missile systems designed to equip ships and submarines. Subsonic and supersonic. With conventional and thermonuclear combat equipment. With a low-altitude profile and an underwater launch ("Amethyst").

The design thought moved on. Among the promising projects, the R-27K with a range of 900 km stood out. The world's first ballistic missile to attack ships from space. Radars and emitting antenna devices on board the ships of the aircraft carrier group acted as "radio beacons" for it.

The foreign navy had no idea of ​​such a weapon. At that time, only Italians were testing their Nettuno with a launch range of 10 km.

Hope for aviation


The American way of dealing with surface ships has not changed. The aircraft still had every chance of destroying the ship with conventional weapons. Just like the Yamato and Musashi were drowned.

With the giants of the past we had to "tinker", hitting them with torpedoes in the underwater part. Modern aluminum superstructures could be destroyed with one hit. At the same time, "Phantom" could drop several tons of bombs on the target in one run - more than a squadron of piston aircraft near Midway.

The danger of such a threat was confirmed by the Falklands Conflict. Aviation bombed 12 ships. The losses of the attackers turned out to be small. Of those aircraft that were sent to attack from low level flight, 8 or 9 units did not return back. And this - if the British have shipborne air defense systems.


Attack of the Argentine Skyhawks. Without any complicated tricks. Fearlessly, head-on!

Skyhawk is a subsonic attack aircraft that took off in 1954. His partner "Dagger" ("Mirage V") was a simplified version of the "Mirage III" without a radar. A quarter of a century before this technique was at the disposal of Argentina, it formed the basis of the air force and aviation fleet of the navies of the countries of the "first world".

Fortunately, the story had no subjunctive mood. And our sailors did not have to see the combat approach of Skyhawks with white stars.

By the mid-1960s, the MK.80 series of pigguns could be accompanied by Wallay gliding bombs, Shrike anti-radar bombs and various radio suppression devices.

How realistic is the use of these weapons against ships?

In 1972, a pair of Shrikes zoomed in on the cruiser Warden off the coast of Vietnam. Nearby explosions damaged the setup. According to the commander, the cruiser lost 2/3 of its combat capabilities.

Little is known about the use of tactical air-to-surface missiles against ships. For example, once the Orion patrol fired Mavrik at a Libyan patrol ship.

In general, overseas did not feel the need for any "super rockets". In turn, the Soviet anti-ship complexes were an "asymmetric response" in the cold war.

The rest of NATO members at that time simply did not have the means to express their opinion on this issue.

And each of the rivals saw the positive features of their own decision. Until the sinking of the Israeli "Eilat" (1967) forced the whole world to take a fresh look at the use of anti-ship missiles.

Ships began to learn how to fight ships


A completely lost skill. How to fight if there is nothing?

The situation began to change in the first half of the 70s. The first anti-ship missiles appeared on boats of the Israeli Navy. The concept of the Gabriel anti-ship missile system contained an important feature: low-altitude flight. Otherwise, Israel made a rocket for its own tasks, so a range of 20-30 kilometers and a 100 kg warhead did not raise any special questions.


Burning "Ilya Mechnikov" after the strike of the Israeli Navy. The Soviet ship was hit by two Gabriel missiles (Tartus, 1973)

After a hot debut in the Yom Kippur War, "Gabriel" has become a commercially successful family of anti-ship missiles and entered service around the world. Azerbaijan and Estonia have chosen this missile among our neighbors. The Balts received the modern fifth generation "Gabriel" with completely different capabilities. The warhead is 240 kg and the launch range is 400 km.

Another anti-ship missile developed in Western Europe has become a real bestseller on the world arms market. More precisely, there were two of them. A joint Franco-Italian project that resulted in two similar (and dissimilar) missiles, Otomat and Exocet. The first even preserved in its name the memory of the origins of the project (OTO Melara MATra).


Otomat's whimsical look

Both were based on a balance between cost, compactness and fighting qualities. The projects had a commercial component, which meant export and compatibility with a wide range of media.

Range requirements were determined by the purpose and available means of the control center. The Italian "Otomat" had large values ​​(150-180 km) due to the use of a turbojet engine. Exocet used a solid-propellant rocket engine (TTRD). The launch range from surface carriers did not exceed 40 km. No unnecessary details, time-consuming prelaunch preparation and in-flight data exchange. Shot - and forgot.

The French rocket turned out to be so practical that it entered service with 30 countries of the world. And its early and successful use in hostilities further strengthened the position of "Exocet" in the world arms market. The rocket was purchased by everyone, from the British and German navies to the Cameroon navy.

Many customers were interested in the aviation version of the anti-ship missile system for use by tactical aircraft. Here the solid propellant "Exocet" (AM.39) was simply out of competition. This variant was the first to be thrown into battle and the first to achieve success.

The base variant (MM.38) was used to arm ships of any class, from boats to destroyers. Among the little-known examples - MM.38 was used as part of the Excalibur coastal complex, which defended the approaches to Gibraltar.

In addition, an option was created for launching submarines from torpedo tubes (SM.39)

As for the Italian Otomat missile, it exists only as a weapon for surface ships.


The listing of all placement options and possible carriers of "Exoset" deserves a separate article. Currently, there is a tendency towards the gradual abandonment of anti-ship missiles on board ships. Already not the most powerful missiles are being actively reduced. For example, the French elegantly removed two "Exocets" from their destroyers' arsenals (they installed six instead of the eight missiles planned for the project).

"Otomat" and "Exocet" are subsonic missiles. Effective overcoming of air defense in both cases is achieved due to high secrecy. The missiles approach the target at ultra-low altitude, flying over the crests of the waves.

Here again the solid fuel Exocet has an advantage. Its engine runs stably at minimum height, whatever the weather. Despite the splash and storm warning.

The French adhered to their principles for a long time and gave up only with the onset of a new century. In 2004, Exocet (MM.40 Block 3) was introduced with a traditional turbojet engine. The flight range increased to 200 km. And everything fell into place. Once the most original anti-ship missile system has disappeared into many faceless projects.

The creators of Exocet did not plan to sink an aircraft carrier with one hit. The target did not have to be torn apart. To "scratch" a flimsy destroyer or frigate built according to the standards of the 60s, a warhead the size of a medium-caliber bombs should have been enough.

In reality, the warhead of French missiles did not explode in half of the cases. Fuse problems are an all-time combat classic. Those who bought "Exocet" did not notice any malice here. The popularity of French weapons only increased, buyers were already impressed by the very fact of hitting the target. Moreover, the meeting with the "Flying Fish" has never passed without consequences.


Here is an unexploded warhead of the Exocet anti-ship missile, recovered from the insides of the Stark frigate. Funnels are visible on the warhead body - a real "cumulative shotgun"!

In fact, the cumulative effect requires funnels of a different shape, and the cumulative jet itself is useless in open space, when exposed to the interior of the ship.

The developers of Exocet probably meant the fragmentation of the warhead with the formation of heavy fragments in the chosen directions. Shock core? Such a comparison would be incorrect. The term "shock core" belongs to ammunition of a special, exotic design.

Just a high-explosive fragmentation warhead. Graceful notches on the hull are made so that the 165 kg thing could leave more noticeable scratches on the ship.

As practice has shown, all these games were not worth the candle. The warhead was too weak. And the main threat came from a running engine and fuel residues. The twice attacked frigate Stark was much more fortunate than the destroyer Coventry, which was hit by the only Exocet.

In the case of Stark, the explosion of the second rocket extinguished the fire from the Exocet stuck in the hull. By significantly reducing the area of ​​fire.

These wonderful missiles have entered service with dozens of countries around the world. They were ideal for hitting targets in local conflicts. But this had little to do with the naval confrontation of the real "superpowers".

We will talk about how events developed in the future and what this led to in the second part of the article.


The anti-ship capabilities of the Forbin frigate are represented by the Exocet anti-ship missile system.
A worthy weapon for a modern ship with a displacement of 7000 tons!


The missile of the P-1000 Vulcan complex. Photo: Dmitry Stogniy
262 comments
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  1. +37
    13 November 2021 06: 49
    Well, the Falklands is generally a fairy tale. Some do not have a fleet, others do not have an aviation, a complete delight - to read .. Sheffield. One missile hit. Did not explode, the trough was sunk.
    Frigate Plymouth. 4 bombs - none exploded - survived
    Glasgow is a complete delight! A thousand-foot bomb, a direct hit ... I thought about it and rolled into the engine room. While on the bridge they were preparing to accept Islam - Bonba decided - that well, his ... "And such is the name of food to a thousand!"
    On the other hand, there have been no coal bunkers in ships for a long time - wherever you stick them in, everything that is important will fly out of action, and the ships do not always see container ships, let alone anti-ship missiles. Especially our reconnaissance ship !!! Kick - scout you fucking
    1. +7
      13 November 2021 17: 43
      United Kingdom
      258 people killed [16] (including 3 islanders)
      2 frigates (HMS Ardent and HMS Antelope)
      2 destroyers (HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry [en])
      1 container ship “Atlantic Conveyor” (Atlantic Conveyor)
      1 landing ship (Sir Galahad (English))
      1 landing boat (Foxtrot 4) [17]
      24 different helicopters
      10 aircraft "Sea Harrier" and "Harrier GR.3" [18]
      In addition, 3 destroyers, 2 frigates, 1 landing ship [
      1. +12
        13 November 2021 19: 58
        The outcome of the war:
        All Argentine garrisons on all islands surrendered.
        Outright victory for England with 258 casualties.
        1. 0
          17 November 2021 18: 57
          A third of the fleet bye-bye) Dear, run on
          https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/
          There is no porn there, but ingish you understand
        2. 0
          18 November 2021 14: 18
          England's clean victory

          In fact, this is a clear victory for the local penguins. All the rest are afraid to take a step to the side because of the minefields.
    2. +6
      15 November 2021 13: 50
      Well, the Falklands is generally a fairy tale.


      Of course, a fairy tale. The British ships were high-tech, but extremely vulnerable.
      The deck superstructures contained a combustible aluminum-magnesium alloy ("electron"), so the Sheffield burned down at an accelerated pace.
      The same "exosets" were powerless against the sides of tankers during the Iran-Iraq war.
      And against our "low-tech" warships, worked in the old-fashioned way, they would also be ineffective.
      I think the RCC has someone and something to notice.
  2. +49
    13 November 2021 07: 28
    As always, Kaptsov writes nonsense.
    First, the West is not far behind in missiles. In the States, the LRASM is being brought to mind, which will also be launched from shipborne VPUs, the Norwegians have an NSM. Both with a large radius and unobtrusive. The Japanese got a three-speed ASM-3, albeit only for aviation. Franks and Angles are making a five-speed Perseus, and in a ship version. In addition, the firing of the Standard SAM against ships has been worked out.
    But about our superiority, I would not categorically state. Our missiles are huge, their speed does not allow us to make them stealthy, and they develop it at high altitudes, where they are clearly visible. In general, until they have been checked in a battle with a serious enemy, you should not throw hats.
    1. +23
      13 November 2021 07: 58
      The States are finishing LRASM, which will be launched from shipborne VPUs,

      LRASM will not be on ships

      For two decades, they developed, as a result, too expensive a missile to arm both aviation and shipborne VPUs of dozens of destroyers. LRASM considered it reasonable to give up aviation, the ships were again left naked.

      I am thinking about doing the second part of the article.
      The Japanese have a three-speed ASM-3, albeit so far only aviation

      That is, once again, the ships did not receive such weapons.
      Franks and Angles make a five-swing Perseus

      It will not fit on any NATO ship; the entire fleet must be rebuilt. Good luck and smiles
      In addition, the Standard SAM firing at ships has been worked out.

      What are the impromptu and half measures, this is the 1st level in the world of the fleet?
      Norwegians have NSM

      Well, there is. Another analogue of Exoset and Harpoon

      American ships are in no hurry to receive it
      1. +21
        13 November 2021 08: 11
        LRASM has already been tested on ships.
        Perseus won't fit on any ship? Yes, she's the size of the Exocet!
        What are the impromptu and half measures, this is the 1st level in the world of the fleet?

        Why would they invent a bicycle? A supersonic missile defense system weighing one and a half tons will sink any ship up to and including a destroyer.
        NSM is not a repeat of the past. It is a stealth rocket with excellent head and high maneuverability.
        1. +15
          13 November 2021 09: 02
          LRASM has already been tested on ships.

          As a result, it is used by aviation

          The reasons I gave you
          Yes, she's the size of the Exocet!

          Mach 5, payload 300, takeoff weight 800 (compare with the performance characteristics of the exoset). This is not a fantasy, this is the fantasy of journalists. A missile with such performance characteristics will not fit on any NATO ship

          Were a collaborative approach still to be pursued, this might delay the introduction of these weapons until the 2030s

          With Perseus, the question is closed. Aren't you ashamed yourself? Brought a concept from a distant future in a conversation about the present tense
          Franks and Angles make a five-swing Perseus,

          good
          Supersonic missiles weighing one and a half tons

          This is its starting mass, everything will burn out the plastic case and 64 kg of warheads
          High Altitude Ballistic = Vulnerable Trajectory
          Bch 64 kg, ship like an elephant grain

          Such a weapon against ships - from despair (and the lack of a worthy opponent)
          1. -2
            13 November 2021 09: 43
            As a result, it is used by aviation

            So the rocket is completely new, just entering service.
            Mach 5, payload 300, takeoff weight 800 (compare with the performance characteristics of the exoset). This is not a fantasy, this is the fantasy of journalists. A missile with such performance characteristics will not fit on any NATO ship

            Technology has advanced a bit since the 60s. Well, fantasy is your part!
            This is its starting mass, everything will burn out the plastic case and 64 kg of warheads
            High Altitude Ballistic = Vulnerable Trajectory
            Bch 64 kg, ship like an elephant grain

            Those. RCC fuel is not spent and reach the target with a starting mass? Well, modern ships do not need much.
            1. +13
              13 November 2021 10: 45
              So the rocket is completely new, just entering service.

              She has been enrolling for ten years now, some talk

              All tests are from aircraft carriers
              Technology has advanced a bit since the 60s.

              You cannot do 5 swings and 300 kg of warheads, with a starting mass of 800. This is pseudoscientific

              All examples about this - Onyx, Waverider
              Those. RCC fuel is not spent and reach the target with a starting mass?

              Anti-ship missiles do not rely on their mass, they rely on a warhead, at least 3-5 times heavier

              Mass without mechanical strength is nothing. Plastic and duralumin will leave cosmetic scratches (relative to the size of the ship)

              The ship must be blown up, not scratched
              1. +13
                13 November 2021 11: 32
                Quote: Santa Fe
                She has been enrolling for ten years now, some talk

                Oleg, can you give a link to a trustworthy source that LRASM will not be installed on ships? Because considerations like
                Quote: Santa Fe
                She has been enrolling for ten years now, some talk

                not based on anything - it was adopted on the initial combat effectiveness in 2018
                1. +10
                  13 November 2021 11: 57
                  Oleg, you can link to a trustworthy source that LRASM will not be installed on the ship

                  As much as you like, Andrey



                  Latest news, summer 2021.
                  after ten years of conversations and tests, they decided to collect 130 units. missiles (by what date it is not written here). All of them are aircraft-based, for the needs of the Air Force and fleet aviation.

                  Berk ships are entitled to 0 pieces

                  Further, purely my vision. If they removed all the Harpoons from the ships, where does the motivation come from to put missiles for 3 million?

                  There is no data about launching from VLS, only words and photoshop. Commercials show aircraft launches
                  1. +4
                    13 November 2021 12: 07
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    after ten years of conversations and tests, they decided to collect 130 units. missiles (by what date it is not written here). All of them are aircraft-based, for the needs of the Air Force and fleet aviation.

                    In other words, you have no confirmation that the surface fleet will not receive LRASM. You are making such a profound conclusion based on the fact that LRASM in the ship version are not being purchased yet.
                    "after 10 years of talking and testing" - given the fact that the program began (at the talk level) in 2009, and the LRASM prototype was ordered 8 years ago - the remark does not make sense.
                    Oleg, are you, by any chance, the author of Airforce Technology? :))))
                    1. +8
                      13 November 2021 12: 19
                      In other words, you have no confirmation that the surface fleet will not receive LRASM

                      They are not on the ships and will not appear in the near future. Follows from contracts. Point.

                      The point is to make predictions in N years. This is what everyone who writes about Lrasm on destroyers is doing.
                      1. +6
                        13 November 2021 20: 27
                        LRASM will receive F-18 aircraft carriers.
                        This is the fleet. And these F-18s will be able to cover from enemy ships
                        and the aircraft carrier itself, and the escort destroyers.
                      2. +6
                        14 November 2021 06: 06
                        Even in the Black Sea, for example
                    2. -14
                      13 November 2021 16: 39
                      "In other words, confirmation that the surface fleet will not receive LRASM" - This anti-ship missile is the same subsonic as Harpoon, but it costs 3 times more expensive than the second one is now an easy target for air defense of ships.
                      1. +2
                        14 November 2021 16: 19
                        It is inconspicuous and low-altitude (extremely low flight altitude), a surface ship will see it 15-20 km away. from himself and he will have little time to react. And if it is a massive volley, then the chances of survival are even less.
                        The only reliable remedy for such missiles at sea is carrier-based fighters under the direction of an AWACS aircraft, which can see everything from above.
                        We don't have that.
                        And even with the Kuznetsov returned to service, there will be only two AWACS helicopters.
                        And you have to do something about it.
                      2. +4
                        14 November 2021 16: 42
                        The "Kuznetsov" could have had a Su-33UB for a long time, which could be used as a mini-AWACS and an electronic warfare aircraft.
                        This project did not go, although everything was ready.
                        The Chinese brought it to mind. And fast. With the help of Ukraine and with the help of Russia.
                      3. +3
                        14 November 2021 18: 30
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        Su-33UB could have been on Kuznetsov for a long time

                        Only if they use the Sych overhead radar container. But you can try such a container on the MiG-29KUB, because it is also a two-seater, and the radar station needs an operator. And a navigator for control / guidance of fighters.
                      4. +3
                        15 November 2021 00: 05
                        This is exactly the kind of container that can be hung on the Su-33UB. As well as the UPAZ refueling unit. Or a heavy anti-ship missile.
                        The large range and combat load allowed it.
                      5. 0
                        15 November 2021 01: 00
                        Why grieve about the Su-33UB, when, apart from the Kuzi, then all the aircraft carriers were sold, the ships were written off / cut / rotted into sludge.
                        In 2 years, one old air defense aircraft carrier is shining for us without a catapult. With an already existing wing. From the Su-33 and MiG-29K \ KUB.
                        Of these, only the MiG-29KUB is double.
                        But there are two more old AWACS helicopters.
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        .Or a heavy anti-ship missile.

                        It is risky for him to take off without a catapult with this rocket.
                        Our "Kuzya" is exclusively an air defense aircraft carrier. In its holds, even the ammunition stowage for the shock ammunition station was not provided, it was necessary to urgently re-equip before leaving for Syria.
                        If you decide to build the Fleet, you will have to practically from scratch.
                      6. +2
                        15 November 2021 02: 06
                        Back in 2004, the Su-33UB was tested on a ship during its voyage to the Atlantic. Yes, even an ordinary Su-33 can carry an ORM and be a tanker himself.
                        Therefore, the limitation in mass on takeoff is not critical - it can take off with a minimum of fuel and a maximum load and after takeoff take fuel from the same as itself.
                        That's why there is a system for refueling / pumping fuel through the UPAZ.
                        Another two-seater Su-25UTG born in 1990. And only a few of them remained.
                        The Su-33 is already at its operational limit and the airframe resource there is lower than that of a conventional aircraft. When, when landing, the hook pulls the cable - the whole plane shudders.
                        There are very heavy loads there.
                      7. +1
                        14 November 2021 16: 47
                        Its stealth under the conditions of the complex use of reconnaissance systems and radar as from ships from aircraft and satellites will be quickly reduced to naught - it will be good only one-on-one aircraft against the ship, and even then if there are the same Daggers and Carapaces on the ship, these subsonic missiles have a chance to shoot down which the same 20 kilometers at subsonic speed will fly in more than a minute - the air defense system will be enough for 10 seconds to aim a rocket at it and launch it, so there is nothing to say about a short reaction time, this is all in the past, as is the flight altitude for modern air defense ships is not a problem. Here, in fact, they made the same ancient rocket, it just became three times more expensive because of stealth, in view of which there would be problems with mass purchases because of the price.
                      8. +4
                        14 November 2021 20: 20
                        Quote: Vadim237
                        Its stealth in the context of the complex application of reconnaissance systems and radar as from ships from planes and satellites will be quickly reduced to naught.

                        From ships by all means of reconnaissance - 15-20 km.
                        Airplanes ... and which ones?
                        And in real combat conditions, these aircraft will be allowed to stay in the air by enemy fighters?
                        Satellites?
                        Satellites are good. It's good when they are, they are in sufficient quantity and quality, and if with the beginning of the DB they are not disabled by the enemy ... who also has satellites.
                        But in reality, the ship / group of ships will have to rely only on their own reconnaissance means - radar and radio engineering. For such a target, only RLR with a detection range of 15 - 20 km.
                        Now about the enemy.
                        He will not attack with a single plane, but with a pair or a flight.
                        Each F-18 is capable of carrying 4 such CDs.
                        Total - 8 - 16 CR in a salvo.
                        Now let's look at our radar and air defense systems.
                        The most modern one is "Polyment-Redoubt" on frigates 22350. It is capable of firing up to 16 targets at the same time ... But this is only (!) With a stellar raid from four sides at the same time and not more than 4 CDs from each of the four directions.
                        And with one canvas of "Polyment" he is able to direct the missile defense system to no more than 4 targets.
                        Therefore, if 5 targets simultaneously go from one angle, then at least the fifth has every chance to finish in the side.
                        No, of course there is also "Duet" and he is also able to take part in the general choir.
                        Like the main battery gun, using shells with remote detonation.
                        But in the confrontation between the ship and the aircraft, the initiative will always be with the aviation, and the ship will not survive in such a confrontation, because even with an impeccable air defense system, its ammunition load is finite.

                        Quote: Vadim237
                        Lrasm

                        not a wunderwaffe at all, but this is a very serious weapon - secretive, smart and in different media. Therefore, it is better to hold back the pink caps about our upcoming victories, and roll up our sleeves and solve at least some of our problems in CRITICAL areas of defense:
                        - MRA, PLO aviation, patrol, reconnaissance and target designation, deck (at least deck helicopters in proper quality, quantity and range).
                        And finally to begin to build normal ships, because today our Fleet exists very conditionally ... The Fleet, in fact, can only be called the Northern Fleet. All the rest, in essence and in their composition, are not even flotillas, but squadrons ... consolidated.
                        Therefore, the United States does not arm its ships with anti-ship missiles, because there are simply NO targets for these anti-ship missiles.
                        In any case, until recently, it was so.
                        Now China has a fleet.
                        Maybe someday it will appear with us again.
                        But the United States has enough aircraft carriers, and on them - carriers of new anti-ship missiles with a range of up to 1000 km.
                        And why do they need more? ... they needed a few years ago?
                        Even 5 - 10 years ago, no one on the planet had any fleet.
                        And when the Russian Federation tried to start building its own Fleet, it was quickly deprived of cooperation with Ukraine, and ... the Russian Federation has no Fleet at this time ... no.
                        There are flotillas and squadrons of old ships in several widely spaced waters.
                        And they began to think about the presence of the Chinese fleet only 5 years ago.
                        Now we are thinking.
                        Strained.
                        And the first thing they did was cut down the Tomahawk with the GOS on the ships - they had one before, and here it is again.
                        And we would have to think about how to finish building the laid down frigates 22350, finally lay the 22350M series, modernize the BOD 1155, complete the ordered series of corvettes for BMZ, complete the Boreyev and Ash series and start doing MAPL ... the Fleet will appear again.
                        And we will be able to BELIEVE how he will shoot down the CD.
                      9. 0
                        19 January 2022 00: 22
                        For 30+ km most likely. At the speed of subsonic anti-ship missiles, our sailors will have time to piss, take a shit and smoke, and then press START.
                      10. 0
                        19 January 2022 09: 07
                        Quote: tohoto
                        For 30+ km most likely.

                        It all depends on the height of the radar antenna post, for a cruiser it can be 30 km. For "Burk" it will be exactly 15 - 20 km. - low-lying antenna sheets.
                        But even if 30 km. smile this is 2 minutes of flight for a subsonic rocket. With time to detect, capture, make a decision, launch a missile defense system and time to fly a missile defense system to the target ... and this is only for the 4th missile defense from one angle. And if the CD is not 4, but 6 ... 8 ..?
                        Quote: tohoto
                        sailors will have time to piss, take a shit and smoke

                        Flight time from the moment of detection is 2 minutes (30 km.) And 1 min. (15 km.), So
                        Quote: tohoto
                        , take a shit

                        only in pants.
                        But the situation can be corrected by ZAK or ZRAK, finishing off the CR that broke through at close range.
                      11. 0
                        19 January 2022 13: 00
                        It all depends on the degree of readiness to open fire, if on the machine, then very quickly, but if all of a sudden the CD came from out of nowhere, then for a long time. The Statesmen so missed a single harpoon.
                      12. 0
                        19 January 2022 13: 22
                        And in order to have not even target designation, but at least a notification (that something is flying from such and such an angle), it is necessary to have AWACS. In our case, this can only be done with a carrier-based AWACS helicopter, the Indians do just that, moreover, with our Ka-31s, which are even based on frigates, and not only for air defense, but also for target designation for anti-ship missiles.
                        So if at a height of 3 - 5 meters more than 4 anti-ship missiles (say X-35) go from one angle, then a fatal outcome for the ship is very likely.
                    3. +5
                      13 November 2021 16: 50
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      In other words, you have no confirmation that the surface fleet will not receive LRASM ...
                      The design of the existing lrasm does not allow using it from MK41. The ship variant will be a very different missile, if at all.
              2. -13
                13 November 2021 14: 40
                Mass without mechanical strength is nothing. Plastic and duralumin will leave cosmetic scratches (relative to the size of the ship)

                Lord, did you teach physics at all? You don't know the formula for calculating the kinetic energy? So how, then, duralumin boeings broke through the WTC towers?
                Your level is terrifying.
                Here's to you, expert. The duralumin litak penetrates through and through the most powerful steel frame, reinforced with reinforced concrete.
                1. Alf
                  +16
                  13 November 2021 16: 33
                  Quote: Sahalinets
                  Duralumin litak pierces through and through the most powerful steel frame, reinforced with reinforced concrete.

                  And then it turned out that the steel cables were interrupted by a directional explosion ... And the neighboring building generally fell by itself, apparently from fear ... But they did not even find remnants of a Boeing propelled into the Pentagon ... And a hole 2x3 meters ...
                2. +4
                  13 November 2021 17: 39
                  Quote: Sahalinets
                  Your level is terrifying.

                  Have you, at your level, decided to compare the SAM with a civilian aircraft? laughing
                  1. Aag
                    0
                    15 November 2021 19: 34
                    Quote: Alex777
                    Quote: Sahalinets
                    Your level is terrifying.

                    Have you, at your level, decided to compare the SAM with a civilian aircraft? laughing

                    The subject of discussion is speed, mass (Sahalinets is silent about this ...) .... Materials are already in the second place, in the context under discussion ... Perhaps so ... And, I think, be on the discussed anti-ship missile warhead in the form of a tungsten scrap, efficiency will be even lower ...)) hi
                    1. 0
                      15 November 2021 19: 47
                      Quote: AAG
                      Sahalinets is silent about this ...

                      Therefore, I was "generally" surprised. No details.
                      The second plane flew in in front of my daughter.
                      Her entire architecture college looked at it. hi
                      1. Aag
                        +1
                        15 November 2021 19: 59
                        Quote: Alex777
                        Quote: AAG
                        Sahalinets is silent about this ...

                        Therefore, I was "generally" surprised. No details.
                        The second plane flew in in front of my daughter.
                        Her entire architecture college looked at it. hi

                        Greetings!
                        But, excuse me, I can’t: I’m busy now, I’ll comment on this: "... The shock wave creates the pressure of gas molecules. The strength of the molecules is the highest ....")))) ... hi
                      2. +2
                        15 November 2021 20: 00
                        What am I to do with it? bully
                        Ahh ... Got it. It got colder. People joke to keep warm. wink
                3. +6
                  13 November 2021 21: 24
                  Duralumin litak pierces through and through the most powerful steel frame

                  He did not pierce any frame

                  The skyscraper stood for another half an hour, the frame, according to official data, melted from the fire (according to conspiracy theories, it was blown up by explosions). Anyway, the plane has nothing to do with it

                  The explosion in the video - a 100-ton aircraft broke through the wall of the building (glazing area?), And scattered the debris across the floors

                  Mass without strength is nothing
                  1. -2
                    13 November 2021 21: 34
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    The explosion in the video - a 100-ton aircraft broke through the wall of the building (glazing area?), And scattered the debris across the floors

                    Mass without strength is nothing

                    It seems that you completely missed school starting from the 5th grade ...
                    And the shock wave from a nuclear explosion, for example, how does it wipe entire cities off the face of the earth? Which strength near the air?
                    1. +4
                      14 November 2021 06: 00
                      that you completely missed school starting from the 5th grade ...
                      And the shock wave from a nuclear explosion, for example, how does it wipe entire cities off the face of the earth? How strong is air?

                      Liam, I remember you on the site for a long time and it was unexpected to read such ignorance

                      We have discussed the collision of rigid bodies before. The shock wave does not transfer matter, it transfers energy
                      1. -1
                        15 November 2021 09: 30
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The shock wave does not transfer matter, it transfers energy

                        What kind of energy does the SHOCK wave carry?)))
                      2. -1
                        15 November 2021 18: 32
                        What kind of energy does the SHOCK wave carry?)

                        Obviously heat, like all explosions. Dmitry was it hard for you with physics at school?
                      3. 0
                        15 November 2021 19: 28
                        Quote: bk316
                        Dmitry was it hard for you with physics at school?

                        Yes, it's better no matter how))) the physics and mathematics class gives an idea of ​​physics)))
                        Quote: bk316
                        Obviously heat, like all explosions.

                        Quote from the great physicist))) are you now being taught at school to use the search or even in elementary school?)))
                      4. +2
                        16 November 2021 12: 18
                        Quote from the great physicist))

                        Dima, I graduated from physics and mathematics school in the first half of the 80s. And he studied physics at Moscow State University in the mid-80s, so don't be hysterical, but read textbooks. Speaking of search - this is an idiotic feature of your generation X to pull
                        quotes from the garbage and think that you understand something in the subject. But you didn't even bother to do that. sad
                      5. 0
                        16 November 2021 13: 25
                        Quote: bk316
                        Dima, I graduated from physics and mathematics school in the first half of the 80s

                        Refresh your memory, on what account you finished, otherwise, somehow I began to doubt, not only in your memory)) UV transfers thermal energy)))), although at your age, senile changes are blooming with might and main))
                        As far as I understand, you are neither sleepy nor spiritually in this area)) but I finished))) To begin with, at least read the definition of a shock wave, not to mention the formation and distribution, and then write nonsense about thermal energy. The fact that the temperature changes as the front advances, as does the pressure, does not mean that there is a direct transfer of thermal energy by the shock wave. You either read the wrong textbooks, or used them as a stand.
                      6. 0
                        16 November 2021 14: 30
                        already senile changes are in full bloom

                        I don't correspond with boors. However, you seem to talk to everyone like that. You have nothing to do in a decent society. To ignore.
                      7. Aag
                        0
                        15 November 2021 19: 45
                        Quote: bk316
                        What kind of energy does the SHOCK wave carry?)

                        Obviously heat, like all explosions. Dmitry was it hard for you with physics at school?

                        We have all types of energy in one way or another tied to heat ... Sometimes to the benefit, sometimes to the detriment of the used physical process ... Maybe I missed something, right ... big fought with her ...)))
                      8. +1
                        16 November 2021 12: 20
                        We have all types of energy in one way or another tied to heat ...

                        Welcome. hi
                        Not all - the nuclear is not tied. Potential is not tied. Not always kinetic. But the energy of the explosion is thermal, like almost any chemical process. You probably understand that JD1979 is not at all in the subject, and the warrior is mistaken. Destruction and, accordingly, protection from penetrating types of impact are considered by kinetics, and from high-explosive ones by thermodynamics. As a result, in the first case, the hardness of the elements and the rigidity of the structure come out on top, and in the second case, the ability to withstand pressure.
                        And I wrote JD1979 so that I would not be rude to the author of the article - this is generally bad manners. At school, of course, wave equations do not work, even in physics and mathematics. laughing
                      9. Aag
                        0
                        15 November 2021 20: 26
                        Quote: bk316
                        What kind of energy does the SHOCK wave carry?)

                        Obviously heat, like all explosions. Dmitry was it hard for you with physics at school?

                        Please remove this comment.
                        I know you from the best side ... hi
                    2. +2
                      14 November 2021 13: 49
                      Quote: Liam
                      It seems that you completely missed school starting from the 5th grade ...
                      And the shock wave from a nuclear explosion, for example, how does it wipe entire cities off the face of the earth? How strong is air?

                      The shock wave creates the pressure of the gas molecules. The strength of the molecules is the highest.
                      1. Aag
                        +1
                        15 November 2021 20: 21
                        Quote: SVD68
                        Quote: Liam
                        It seems that you completely missed school starting from the 5th grade ...
                        And the shock wave from a nuclear explosion, for example, how does it wipe entire cities off the face of the earth? How strong is air?

                        The shock wave creates the pressure of the gas molecules. The strength of the molecules is the highest.

                        ... Well, you can't argue !!!))) (say goodbye to the word punishable by admins ...).
                        Just sat KVN revised .... But it did not move in!
                        She, with nuclear, molecular ())) physics, I had problems at school ... Let's assume that I'm hanging somewhere on the state of aggregation of substances ...
                        But I'm inquisitive! Well, you have to make sure for yourself: I even imagined how I was throwing milk with hammers (of different masses, at different speeds) on an anvil, in the hope of destroying the molecules of gases present in the atmospheric air ....))) It does not work! Apparently you are right, -One molecules are such, ...., strong ...
                        Do not waste time on "VO"! - immediately to the Nobel Committee! ..
                        ... Sorry, though, I didn’t want to offend you (if it happened so), - I hope you didn’t fully, not intelligibly (at least for me)))), set out the idea. But it turned out funny ... How did the hero of O. Yankovsky say there? Baron Munchausen? "-" Smile! Gentlemen, smile! ... " drinks hi
                    3. +1
                      15 November 2021 18: 38
                      And the shock wave from a nuclear explosion, for example, how does it wipe entire cities off the face of the earth?

                      However, it is the KARKAS that the shock wave does not penetrate. I am now sitting in a Soviet-built building designed to work in a big war. Glasses fly out the building is standing. laughing
                      And the glasses fly out due to the air pressure in the front of the shock wave.

                      Oleg wrote everything correctly, but did not explain it.
                      Destruction of the target occurs in at least 2 mechanisms.
                      1. High-explosive effect. The target is destroyed due to a sharp increase in pressure in the front of the shock wave. Naturally, what the rocket body is made of is absolutely unimportant. But what is important is how much of the exploding substance and what kind of substance (read about the measurement of the high-explosive effect). SAMs have much less warhead mass than anti-ship missiles. Modern missiles are generally not designed for a serious high-explosive effect, since they are mainly struck by fragments (damaging elements). From the point of view of physics, the goal is destroyed due to the transfer of thermal energy.
                      2. Penetrating effect. The target is hit by an inelastic collision with the missile. And here it is already important what the rocket consists of, including both weight and shape, strength characteristics and SPEED are important. From the point of view of physics, the target is destroyed due to kinetic energy in a completely inelastic collision.

                      With different warheads, there can also be destruction due to the cumulative effect with CBC and due to radiation energy with CBC, but this does not apply to missiles.
                      1. 0
                        15 November 2021 21: 05
                        Quote: bk316
                        SAMs have much less warhead mass than anti-ship missiles

                        SM-6 in an anti-ship missile variant with a kinetic warhead. kinetic warhead?
                        Quote: bk316
                        From the point of view of physics, the goal is destroyed due to the transfer of thermal energy.

                        Calculate at your leisure how many joules of energy a rocket weighing about 1000 kg with a kinetic warhead has at a terminal speed of Mach 4 at sea level.
                        Quote: bk316
                        Oleg wrote everything correctly

                        Yeah...
                      2. +1
                        15 November 2021 21: 22
                        Do you know what is hiding under the term kinetic warhead?


                        Of course, unlike you, I am an air defense officer.

                        Calculate at your leisure how many joules of energy a rocket weighing about 1000 kg with a kinetic warhead has at a terminal speed of Mach 4 at sea level.

                        What for? They explained to you that a ton, a ton and a half is the initial weight. The same sm-6 warhead weighs 100 kg.
                        And the speed is 4 max (and not 4 but 3,5 the difference in energy is large) on a very small section of the trajectory, it also accelerates and then flies along a ballistic trajectory. In total, 15 times less than what you suggested to count.
                      3. -1
                        15 November 2021 21: 37
                        Quote: bk316
                        They explained to you that a ton, a ton and a half is the initial weight. The same sm-6 warhead weighs 100 kg.
                        And the speed is 4 max (and not 4 but 3,5 the difference in energy is large) on a very small section of the trajectory, it also accelerates and then flies along a ballistic trajectory. In total, 15 times less than what you suggested to count

                        You have no idea how the SM-6 works in the anti-ship missile version, nor about its characteristics.
                        Quote: bk316
                        I am unlike you an air defense officer

                        Yeah...
                      4. 0
                        16 November 2021 12: 14
                        Yeah...

                        You have no idea how the CM-6 works.

                        These are of course arguments laughing
                      5. -1
                        16 November 2021 14: 54
                        Quote: bk316
                        These are of course arguments


                        When a person writes

                        ... SAMs have much less warhead mass than anti-ship missiles. Modern missiles are generally not intended for a serious high-explosive effect, since they are mainly struck by fragments (damaging elements)

                        The same sm-6 warhead weighs 100 kg.


                        this means that he is not aware of the characteristics of the SM-6 in the anti-ship missile version.
                        And when he writes

                        And the speed is 4 max (and not 4 but 3,5 the difference in energy is large) on a very small section of the trajectory, it also accelerates and then flies along a ballistic trajectory


                        it means that he has no idea how it works.

                        It works like this:

                        For the first time, the Secretary of Defense in the Obama administration, Ashton Carter, announced that the SM-6 missiles were given anti-ship capabilities. According to him, thanks to this, the United States will "get completely new opportunities", since the missile will hit enemy ships at a distance of more than 200 miles (370 km).

                        After this statement by Ashton Carter, experts began to discuss the need to increase the power of the warhead of the rocket, since the charge available on the missile defense system is not capable of not only sinking the ship, but also seriously damage it.
                        The shooting of the former frigate Reuben James and his drowning demonstrated the futility of this dispute.

                        The SM-6 missile in the anti-ship version is equipped with a non-explosive kinetic warhead. RIM-174 flies to the target along a ballistic trajectory, and when approaching it, it dives steeply from a height of 35-40 km, in fact attacks vertically, which seriously complicates countering it with air defense / missile defense systems.

                        When the seeker locks on the target, the solid-propellant propulsion engine is switched on again, accelerating the rocket to a speed of over 4 M.

                        When such a "kinetic bomb" hits a surface ship of any class, it pierces it through and through, destroying everything in its path, and through a hole in the bottom goes into the water. The enemy ship is almost doomed
                        .
                      6. 0
                        16 November 2021 15: 32
                        this means that he is not aware of the characteristics of the SM-6 in the anti-ship missile version.

                        You know - let's prove the performance characteristics. And please, without the amateurish "in the PKR version", just the full name of the product. So I hint, these are letters after the word block laughing
                        There will be no proof, we will consider you a balabol.
                        The time has gone.
                  2. -1
                    13 November 2021 23: 13
                    I sob ... Below they wrote to you about the shock wave. And what is the strength of water? Apparently depth charges and bottom mines are fake weapons?
                    1. +4
                      14 November 2021 06: 05
                      I sob ... Below you have written about the shock wave.

                      So don't cry, control yourself

                      Liam wrote nonsense in the commentary, he answered about it
                      And what is the strength of water?

                      Shock propagation is not like a collision of solids

                      The wave does not carry matter, but energy
                      1. -4
                        14 November 2021 09: 15
                        As I understand it, K. e. = mv2 / 2 passed you by? Astounding ignorance.
                        You can be seen from these intuitive geniuses. The water is soft!

                      2. +3
                        14 November 2021 10: 47
                        formula K. e. = mv2 / 2 passed you by?

                        Before copying and pasting one formula everywhere, think about a simple

                        What kin can be spent on. the energy of the projectile (rocket) when it hits the target. And what does the result depend on
                      3. +3
                        14 November 2021 10: 25
                        The shock wave and its impact are calculated using the same kinetic theory as for solids. Molecules.
                        The shock wave requires substance. In a gas, during an explosion, the density of the gas makes a sharp jump. Jumps locally, respectively, and pressure. And this "compacted" gas causes the destruction of solids.
                      4. -3
                        14 November 2021 13: 55
                        Yes, it is useless to explain to him, there is complete ignorance.
                      5. 0
                        15 November 2021 18: 58
                        The shock wave and its impact are calculated using the same kinetic theory as for solids.

                        Not true there are different equations. They converge with an increase in the velocity of the kinetic impact, yes (but they converge not in the mathematical sense, but in the everyday sense) and in practice this can only be used on hypersound. And so there everything is not according to kinetics, but according to thermodynamics. Google "shock adiabat equation".
                      6. Aag
                        +2
                        15 November 2021 21: 10
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        The shock wave and its impact are calculated using the same kinetic theory as for solids. Molecules.
                        The shock wave requires substance. In a gas, during an explosion, the density of the gas makes a sharp jump. Jumps locally, respectively, and pressure. And this "compacted" gas causes the destruction of solids.

                        IMHO: write everything correctly. Except: "... The shock wave and its effect are calculated using the same theory of kinetics ..."
                        Kinetics is in tenth place there! (I can be wrong - in the nuclear missile college, as graduates of the Strategic Missile Forces sometimes call their higher educational institutions, this was taught very thoughtfully ... But the students did not give it much importance (except for those who aimed at science), because even then it was clear to the boys, “die, but start the answer! Otherwise, everything invested in you, your training, provision, (taken from the people, your parents, is meaningless!). Sorry for the pathos, maybe I, we and such words they didn’t know, but understanding was ...
                        By the way, about a jump in gas pressure ... Resonance phenomena ... (... let's omit organ music, other musical instruments ... we won't even look under the hood of our cars in order to examine, understand the intention of the designers who designed the intake systems of the internal combustion engine, all the more so - we will not climb under the bottom to study the delights of the exhaust system ...).
                        I had a chance to read some excerpts from the doctoral work of a teacher at one of the departments of our Higher Educational Institution of Higher Education on the topic: close to the text, the main meaning is "Formation of a shock wave with nuclear weapons comparable in power, weapons of frontal artillery ..." Well, something like that ..
                        The meaning of the work is that under certain conditions (terrain, weather conditions, etc.), it is possible to form a volley of MLRS, barrel art with the corresponding power supply unit, capable of forming a shock wave ... I've already written ... Here's the air, here's a resonance ... hi
                      7. 0
                        16 November 2021 12: 23
                        Here's air for you, here's a resonance ...

                        But what does the resonance have to do with it? Or are you talking about molecular resonance?
                  3. -2
                    15 November 2021 13: 56
                    He did not pierce any frame


                    Without breaking through the frame, the Boeing would not have entered the building.
                    1. 0
                      19 January 2022 00: 35
                      The supporting frame is in the very center of the building, and not outside, and there a smaller plane could fly through this building if the very center was not touched.
              3. +1
                15 November 2021 10: 35
                Quote: Santa Fe
                She has been enrolling for ten years now, some talk
                All tests are from aircraft carriers

                It seems like the US Navy decided to dig in the direction of the Tomahawk Block Va (aka MST) - judging by the orders for updating the GOS. Apparently, here it was just Lockheed Martin and Raytheon who divided the pie in this way: some went to the Air Force, others to the Navy.
                At the same time, successful launches of LRASM from Mk41 were carried out back in 2015, i.e. in case of great need, these missiles can also become naval weapons.
          2. +13
            13 November 2021 11: 34
            An armor-piercing warhead is not needed against radar antennas.
            And anti-aircraft guns are great for this. In addition, at a radio visibility range, it is difficult to deal with them with the help of electronic warfare and traps, in contrast to homing anti-ship missiles.
            1. -7
              13 November 2021 12: 06
              In addition, at a radio visibility range, it is difficult to deal with them with the help of electronic warfare and traps, in contrast to homing anti-ship missiles.

              No traps

              High-altitude ballistic target will be shot with anti-missiles
              1. +5
                13 November 2021 17: 42
                Quote: Santa Fe
                High-altitude ballistic target will be shot with anti-missiles

                But there are almost no such missiles on our ships. hi
      2. +9
        13 November 2021 08: 27
        "Estonia. The Balts received the modern fifth generation" Gabriel "with completely different capabilities."
        - when is that? On a time machine or what?
        And as for the useless cumulatives: look at any SAAB firing at spaced armor. As early as 45, the Americans pierced five plates of armor, spaced 10m apart. Imitated Yamato
        1. +11
          13 November 2021 08: 51
          And about the useless cumulative

          Cumulatives punch a hole in the armor

          If there is no armor and barriers, the use of cumulative is meaningless. Conventional land mines are more effective
          1. +4
            13 November 2021 09: 14
            - when is that?

            From memory, 2019
            First Buyer Gabrielle 5 / Blue Spare
            1. +8
              13 November 2021 12: 55
              Quote: Santa Fe
              - when is that?

              From memory, 2019
              First Buyer Gabrielle 5 / Blue Spare

              The first Finns.
            2. +1
              13 November 2021 13: 11
              They have nothing. And there will be no earlier 26 years.
          2. +3
            13 November 2021 13: 14
            Cumulatives pierce a hole everywhere: in a bulkhead, in an engine, in a shell or rocket cellar, in a double bottom ...
            1. +3
              13 November 2021 21: 16
              Cumulative is similar to BB

              It is not needed if there is no armor. And even harmful. From a land mine, the hole in the bulkhead will be ten times larger
              1. -2
                14 November 2021 05: 24
                The multicumulative will pierce a dozen holes in all directions to great depths. And the high-explosive effect for a large hole in the nearest bulkhead is more than enough. But a clean land mine will not penetrate the cellar, if not a direct hit. Developers of such warheads for Exocet, Otomat, Cormoran just kidding in your opinion?
                1. +4
                  14 November 2021 06: 51
                  The multicumulative will punch a dozen holes in all directions

                  To do this, you will have to alternately apply it to the walls, floor and ceiling of the lol compartment

                  The cumulative is not a laser beam. The effect exists only as long as the barrier breaks through, then it immediately disappears, the jet turns into a small amount of suspension, without extreme and special properties. It cools down quickly. If you did not have time to immediately get on combustible materials, then that's it. The whole effect is a tiny hole in the armor, 0,1 caliber

                  Due to the design features of armored vehicles, cumulative weapons have become popular, against other types of targets - complete nonsense

                  The creators of Exocet handed over fragmentation to heavy shards, exactly for what you described. That's all
                  1. -2
                    14 November 2021 08: 05
                    And the creators of Otomat, kormoran?
                    The Yankees knew how the ke "immediately disappears" back in 45, having carried 5 sheets of armor 2,5m each. Really disappears ... somewhere in the depths of the earth
                    1. +2
                      14 November 2021 10: 50
                      Otomat - downward directed explosion
                      About how ke "immediately disappears"

                      The effect will disappear immediately if the conditions are violated

                      Hence the anti-cumulative networks and screens, do not give the opportunity to work at close range

                      And for the same reason, tanks survive after breaking through armor from RPGs.
                      Yankees, carrying 5 sheets of armor 2,5m each.

                      Give the link again
                      1. 0
                        14 November 2021 11: 04
                        http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10530&p=1
                      2. +2
                        14 November 2021 12: 03
                        http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10530&p=1

                        And thank you
                      3. 0
                        15 November 2021 21: 12
                        http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10530&p=1

                        It is said here about the preservation of the cumulative jet at a distance of 30-40 times greater than the thickness of the main obstacle.

                        All known examples from this area do not confirm this. It is enough to put a screen mesh in front of the armor to reduce the effect to an inconspicuous pothole (for a conventional one-stage charge)

                        Kum jet does not live in open space

                        On the other hand, if the charge is half a ton? It is difficult to say because such charges are not made.

                        X-22 with a cumulative warhead, it says about a hole in a large area. What is contrary to the very essence of the shaped charge

                        The weakness of the story with the penetration of 5 layers of armor during the tests in 1945, in the absence of photos
                      4. 0
                        16 November 2021 05: 07
                        Oleg, RBS56, TOW, SPIKE, NLAW ... The burst of an old RBS over the armor, the jet goes into the ground.
                        Regarding the large hole in the X-22 - the high-explosive effect for the unarmored side has not been canceled.
                        Submarine torpedoes of small caliber, GBs pierce not only layers of steel, but water and air m / y with them
                      5. 0
                        16 November 2021 14: 54
                        Yes, it is useless to write something here, when a person is sure that he knows and understands everything, he does not doubt anything and does not admit his wrongness.
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        It is said here about the preservation of the cumulative jet at a distance of 30-40 times greater than the thickness of the main obstacle.

                        All known examples from this area do not confirm this. It is enough to put a screen mesh in front of the armor to reduce the effect to an inconspicuous pothole (for a conventional one-stage charge)

                        Two phrases that give a complete understanding of a person's misunderstanding of what he is writing about. And what you are trying to tell him. Your examples are wrong))) it just can't be, he said so.
                      6. -1
                        16 November 2021 13: 52
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        All known examples from this area do not confirm this. It is enough to put a screen mesh in front of the armor to reduce the effect to an inconspicuous pothole (for a conventional one-stage charge)

                        Another confirmation that you don't understand anything if you write something like that)))
              2. +1
                14 November 2021 10: 31
                "It is not needed if there is no armor. And even harmful" ///
                ---
                Mini-kumms are actively used when storming houses (breaking through brick walls), in drone missiles (destroying cars, people with a direct hit).
                No splinters or accidental casualties.
                Directional spray of kumma, like buckshot, is only much more effective.
                1. +1
                  14 November 2021 10: 54
                  Mini-kumms are actively used when storming houses (breaking through brick walls)

                  In fact, the main purpose again is to break through obstacles. Not for open spaces
                  drone missiles (destruction of cars, people by direct hit).

                  Directional blast

                  And the Yankees use flexible blades in these cases, rolled inside the missile warhead
                  1. 0
                    14 November 2021 11: 08
                    An automatic directed explosion? 90mm high-explosive armor? And p15, x22?
                    Kormoran 16 funnels multi kum 90mm. There, splinters of gpe should be with a 3,5-inch projectile each.
                  2. 0
                    14 November 2021 11: 15
                    The warhead of the aforementioned pkr breaks through an obstacle (side, deck) and is triggered inside. At the same time, no one canceled the high-explosive effect. Plus ke or cartoon
          3. +5
            13 November 2021 13: 37
            Quote: Santa Fe
            If there is no armor and barriers, the use of cumulative is meaningless. Conventional land mines are more effective

            On our anti-ship missiles, the same cumulative funnels are used. For example:
            ..... cumulative notch "Basalt" in diameter of about 50 cm. Located at the bottom of the warhead (reminiscent of a standard iron barrel) and the axis of the future jet at an angle to the horizontal plane ....
            1. 0
              14 November 2021 10: 55
              Cumulative funnels are used on our anti-ship missiles.

              Before replicating the myth, answer - why?

              What are going to punch

              500 kg more efficient in the OP version
              1. +1
                14 November 2021 12: 40
                Quote: Santa Fe
                What are going to punch
                Arizona armor.
              2. 0
                18 November 2021 21: 28
                Quote: Santa Fe
                Before replicating the myth, answer - why?

                Question:
                Where does the information come from that this is a myth? Is this accurate information or one of those "that this cannot be, because it can never be?"

                The energy of the explosion of 500 kg goes all into the formation of a cumulative funnel ("impact nucleus") and does not go anywhere else?
                And to assume that a directional explosion of the same energy can penetrate a lot of rooms with vital equipment or the bottom (side of the ship, below the waterline), etc. and that could do more to the ship than an explosion in one place?
                1. 0
                  19 November 2021 00: 42
                  And to assume that the explosion is directed action

                  Yes

                  But what does the cumulative effect have to do with it?
          4. +1
            13 November 2021 18: 31
            The twice attacked frigate Stark was much more fortunate than the destroyer Coventry, which was hit by the only Exocet.
            The Coventry was sunk by bombs. And Sheffield, if that's what you're talking about, was crammed with aluminum and flammable insulation. "Stark" in this regard was a model of fire resistance. And the "extinguished" fire is also nonsense.
            And what nonsense about the notches on the warhead for scratching!
            1. +2
              14 November 2021 12: 00
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              The Coventry was sunk by bombs. And Sheffield, if that's what you're talking about, was crammed with aluminum and flammable insulation.

              The frigates of the previous generation were stuffed with aluminum - all these "Ardents" and "Antilopes". And the Sheffield, like all Type 42 EMs, had a pure steel structure. At the time of the design of these EMs, their lordships already had a sad experience of fires of light-alloy structures on ships - and immediately refused to save weight in this way.
              But with plastics for decoration and thermal insulation, the limes on the Type 42 missed the mark.
              1. -1
                15 November 2021 04: 18
                Quote: Alexey RA

                The frigates of the previous generation were stuffed with aluminum - all these "Ardents" and "Antilopes". And the Sheffield, like all Type 42 EMs, had a pure steel structure. At the time of the design of these EMs, their lordships already had a sad experience of fires of light-alloy structures on ships - and immediately refused to save weight in this way.
                Well, what is the "previous generation" of ships designed and built at the same time? Amazon was commissioned in 1974, and Sheffield in 1975, anyway before the fire on Amazon. Well, indirectly, the next batch of Type 42 was built taking into account the Falklands, including strengthening the cross-links, just like during the repairs of the Amazons, and they were motivated by cracking due to the difference in the expansion of aluminum steel.
                In general, English sources about Sheffield are dull: burned, drowned. all. hi
                1. 0
                  15 November 2021 12: 49
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Well, what is the "previous generation" of ships designed and built at the same time? Amazon was commissioned in 1974, and Sheffield in 1975, anyway, before the fire on Amazon.

                  And what, besides frigates "type 21", there were no other ships with light-alloy structural elements? EM "Type 42" was designed just based on the experience of similar fires on USN and RN ships in the 60s and early 70s.
                  By the way, Sheffield is the favorite example of safety advocates of the use of light alloys in the construction of ships - in the sense that "steel burns no worse".
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Well, indirectly, the next batch of Type 42 was built taking into account the Falklands, including strengthening the cross-links, just like during the repairs of the Amazons, and they were motivated by cracking due to the difference in the expansion of aluminum steel.

                  The Sheffield's argumentation was different - in the third episode, they eliminated the consequences of Labor's rule in terms of ultra-budget ships. In order to reduce the cost of EV, even the seaworthiness and strength of the hull had to be sacrificed.
                  The length of the ship was limited to 392 feet, which, although it was slightly more than the 385 feet proposed at the very beginning of the design, was still insufficient (and with the construction of the 3rd series, the length had to be increased). According to British researchers, they deliberately chose to limit the length to the detriment of combat capabilities and sea qualities: so that in the future there would be no temptation to install new expensive equipment on destroyers. The "truncated" length of the hull led to a small distance between the bow and the gun mount, as well as the launcher of the Sea Dart complex, and at the same time required the relocation of the location of the missile cellar. In bad weather, the main armament of the ship was overwhelmed by waves, which impeded its effective use and created a threat of damage to the missile system and gun mount.

                  Too short hull length also limited the maximum speed of the ship. The displacement of 3575 tons was provided by partially water-filled fuel tanks, similar to the Type 41 and Type 61 frigates. An obvious design mistake caused by the irrepressible desire to save on everything was the lack of overall strength of the hull.
                  1. 0
                    15 November 2021 14: 28
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    By the way, "Sheffield" is the favorite example of safety advocates using light alloys in the construction of ships - in the sense that "steel burns just as well."
                    Yes, I have never seen it, but I will not argue.

                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Insufficient overall strength of the hull was recognized as an obvious design mistake caused by the irrepressible desire to save on everything.
                    I agree AlMag is still three times more expensive than steel, so I admit that you are right. hi
          5. +4
            13 November 2021 19: 00
            Quote: Santa Fe
            If there is no armor and barriers, the use of cumulative is meaningless.

            Two words.
            why do our ships keep the Onyx in service and anti-ship "Caliber" (ZM14)?

            1M3 - KRBD, not anti-ship missiles. I hope this is from carelessness, and not from malicious intent, because the RCC is a 14M3.
            2. Our AICR Kh-22 had a high-explosive-cumulative penetrating warhead
            When the high-explosive-shaped charge of the rocket was triggered in the board of the target ship, a destruction zone with an area of ​​22 m12 and a depth of up to XNUMX m was formed, and cumulative jet directed downward (at an angle to the rocket axis).

            Oleg! What's wrong with you!? As Shura Balaganov would put it: - "I don't recognize my brother Kolya" (c) laughing
            1. 0
              14 November 2021 05: 56
              Dear Boa, why for the hundredth time about cumulatives, leave this specific type of b / n alone

              The cumulative shows its properties only in one case, in direct contact with an armored barrier. In all other cases, this effect is useless, unnecessary and even harmful, reducing the effectiveness of the warhead, in comparison with a conventional land mine.

              I understand that there is a stereotype of the best weapon around the B / p that breaks through solid armor. And the very word Cumulative for the layman sounds mysterious and cool. But it is not so. Each weapon has its own niche and purpose.

              But you are a competent specialist in military affairs, Boa, why such questions
              1. +2
                14 November 2021 11: 43
                Quote: Santa Fe
                why such questions

                Oleg, I just gave an example. Nothing personal.
                I'm not mistaken about the shaped charge, but experts use it extensively in weapons to inflict a greater damaging effect.
                Even the torpedo weapon puzzled them.
                Best regards, hi
                1. ANB
                  0
                  15 November 2021 10: 04
                  ... Even the torpedo weapon puzzled them.

                  Which one? Have you invented a new type of BZO? Or is it not in our torpedoes?
                  1. 0
                    15 November 2021 11: 45
                    Quote: ANB
                    Or is it not in our torpedoes?

                    Infa slipped through, which is in English.
                    1. ANB
                      0
                      15 November 2021 21: 33
                      ... Infa slipped that in English

                      They removed the more effective remote detonation of the BZO (everyone has been using proximity callers for this for a long time) and made a detonation on touch, like in WW2? Very strange. So the power of the explosion is already enough to break a hole in the side or even break the ship. The point is to change this effect to a small hole. In 298 500 kg of sea mix. I don't remember how many in 2503, but there are about 300. TNT equivalent 1.6.
                      Are you sure you have not messed up anything?
                      1. 0
                        16 November 2021 01: 13
                        Quote: ANB
                        Are you sure you have not messed up anything?

                        Colleague, you made me "doubt" my memory. (Sclerosis was growing stronger! - it is still far from marasmus ... and this pleases)

                        Small-sized anti-submarine torpedoes with HEAT warheads:
                        a - torpedo MU-90 Umpact;
                        b - torpedo Stingray ";
                        в - torpedo TT-4. 1 - bow compartment; 2 - combat charging compartment; 3 - instrument compartment; 4 - power plant compartment; 5 - aft compartment; 6 - braking and stabilization system. Source: "Izvestia RARAN"
                      2. ANB
                        0
                        16 November 2021 01: 26
                        ... Small-sized

                        I sent my comment and sat down to think where it can be screwed. And it just occurred to me that it was for small-sized torpedoes. They have a relatively small BZO. One could try to compensate for this with some peculiarities. I saw such (330 mm) only as a payload of 83r and 86r.
                        Although how to organize the cumulative effect on the torpedo is still unclear. Against our boats - only a light hull to burn through. Actually, the torpedo on the rocket has always confused me in terms of efficiency. And I did not see firing with them with fixation of guidance. Whether it is 84r and 88r.
      3. +11
        13 November 2021 09: 46
        Quote: Santa Fe
        What are the impromptu and half measures, this is the 1st level in the world of the fleet?

        And against whom should they particularly strain? Who can challenge them in the sea? With so many combat-ready aircraft (coastal and deck-based), you don't have to worry too much about anti-ship missiles on surface ships ...
      4. +3
        13 November 2021 11: 34
        American ships are in no hurry to receive it

        Oleg - thank you for coming back! It wasn't too long ... drinks
        1. +3
          13 November 2021 12: 26
          Thank you for your feedback.

          Several articles are published every month
          1. 0
            13 November 2021 12: 41
            Several articles are published every month

            Apparently I didn't notice. But we missed it. drinks
      5. +3
        13 November 2021 23: 19
        Well, Oleg! You also give !!!

        signature: "The destroyer "Defender" should be armed according to the project with eight anti-ship missiles "Harpoon". Have you noticed the launcher on its upper deck? "
        =======
        Have you noticed anything on the upper deck of the destroyer "Daring" (the same "type D" or "45" - that is, "classmate" "Defender")?
        Yes Yes! Is that the one that the red arrows point to? No? So, this is a 2x4 PU anti-ship missile system "Harpoon" (the possibility of quick installation is provided for by the project - the cabling has been laid, and the BIUS has an open architecture)! lol

        Not "Onyx" of course, and even more so, not "Zircon", but the range is not bad. And given the very low RCS and very low flight height - the thing is very, very unsafe! hi
        1. 0
          14 November 2021 05: 16
          Have you noticed anything on the upper deck of the destroyer "Daring" (the same "type D" or "45" - that is, "classmate" "Defender")?

          This is an old photo

          Read the title at this link
          https://whitefleet.net/2016/11/18/royal-navy-to-retire-harpoon-missile-without-replacement/
          1. +2
            14 November 2021 14: 38
            Quote: Santa Fe
            This is an old photo

            =========
            So on the "Defender" the SCRC "Harpoon" have been standing for a LONG time ??? belay
            So why didn’t you notice this ?? lol
            ---------
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Read the title at this link
            https://whitefleet.net/2016/11/18/royal-navy-to-retire-harpoon-missile-without-replacement/

            =========
            The title of this article was: "The largest British destroyer entered the Black Sea" Korrespondent.net, 25 April 2017, 12:56
            (https://korrespondent.net/world/3843756-v-chernoe-more-voshel-krupneishyi-brytanskyi-esmynets#3).
            By the way, here's another photo and also in the 2017 article:

            Link: https://technolakpiter.ru/o-boevoi-effektivnosti-esmincev-dering-i-kassar-drakony-na/
            Here "Harpoons" are visible, as they say, "with the naked eye"! By the way: back in 2013, the British Admiralty decided to re-equip 4 out of 6 Deoing type e / m (aka Type D and Type 45) 2x4 Harpoon launchers (from the Type 22 frigates being decommissioned. ... Unfortunately, how this program was progressing is not in the know.
            PS That's interesting, instead of admitting: "Yes, they say, I was mistaken! He gave an extremely unfortunate example!" start "excuses" like: "this is supposedly an old article" .... You might think that the British are now dismantling "Harpoons" from destroyers urgently ..... I DIDN'T HEAR something like that! hi
            1. +1
              14 November 2021 21: 09
              By the way, here's another photo and also in the 2017 article:

              You don't even hear or read the interlocutor

              I gave you a link where it says RN abandoned Harpoons (2018), without any replacement
              You might think that the British are now urgently dismantling the Harpoons from destroyers.

              Long ago
      6. +1
        14 November 2021 09: 18
        Well, they themselves wrote - a different concept. Well, "Berks" do not fight on their own, except with the Papuans - and then there is enough Standard / Harpoon for the ears. And their task is an air defense / missile defense / anti-aircraft defense umbrella over the main strike unit - an aircraft carrier, which, in fact, will sink opponents. And of course, strikes on the shore - a volley of a couple of dozen Tomahawks in any case, is a weighty argument.
      7. +1
        14 November 2021 12: 57
        Quote: Santa Fe
        LRASM will not be on ships

        AGM-158C is the designation for airborne LRASM missiles only.
        As I understand it, they have some problems with vertical launch from MK41 and compatibility with the Tactical Tomahawk (TTWCS) and Mk41 VLS weapons control system.
        Although the flight tests of "CTV-1" were and Mk - 114 ASROCK brought "as it should". But it looks like a collective farm

        Quote: Santa Fe
        as a result, a missile is too expensive to equip both aviation and shipborne VPUs of dozens of destroyers

        20 for destroyers, 70 destroyers = 1400 + stock (how much is their standard? 90%)?
        467 Super Hornets - 30 rubles = 437 * 2 = 900 pieces + stock (how much is their standard? 230%)
        +
        B-1B Launch
        F-35 Lightning II
        Boeing P-8 Poseidon
        at $ 3,960,000 / piece ... EXPENSIVE? for the USA? funny
        Quote: Santa Fe
        with a naked woman

        we would be so "naked"
        2020
        Tomahawk Block V. USS Chafee (DDG 90) fired two Block V missiles, hitting targets at ranges at both San Nicholas Island and China Lake Naval Air Force Base in California.
        $ 1,537,645 (FY2021) (Block V)
        All Block IV Tomahawks will be converted to Block V standard
        Block Va, Maritime Strike Tomahawk (MST)
        Block Vb with JMEWS
        Quote: Santa Fe
        That is, once again, the ships did not receive such weapons.

        she has pvd. problems with vertical start and / or start from zero speed even more than 158
        in length = 6 m, only 25 cm remains on the start step (see BGM-109)
        Anti-ship missiles "Type 90" SSM-1B SSM are on board, they believe that 150 km will be enough.
        Quote: Santa Fe
        What are the impromptu and half measures, this is the 1st level in the world of the fleet?

        with total domination in aviation in general, but in aviation at sea "vaasche, vaasche"?
        why not experiment?
        You cannot change the ammunition load at sea like a horn in a Kalashnikov.
        Do you think that the Americans are such rogue that instead of increasing the number of PBXN-107, they spent millions of dollars and the time of the brains of Los Alamos, ALE3D resources and 2D Multi-Physics Code, in order to use the remnants of JP-10 when meeting a target?
        All these dances with tambourines to reduce the burning rate (bring to detonation) of the JP-10 aerosol cloud from 30 m seconds to 0,3 ms
        They are pragmatists ..
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Bch 64 kg, ship like an elephant grain

        against ships adapted RIM-174 SM-6 ERAM
        According to "ballistic" it is only if it needs the maximum range (more than 350 km).
        She intercepts targets and on PMV
        Using GPS, it will be taken to the extinguishing capture zone with acceptable accuracy.
        It is very difficult to intercept, even if it flies along a semi-ballistic trajectory, a supersonic target that can withstand overloads during a maneuver of 50g.
        1.Mass warhead Mk-125, kg: 115 can be both fragmentation and kinetic
        2. even if "Bch 64 kg"
        Ek = m * V ^ 2/2 = 64 kg * 1200m / s * 1200m / s / 2 = 43 J = 920 MJ. Count 000 kg TNT

        not so little.
        and if 115 kg, then almost 20 kg TNT
        moreover, the transition of EK to heat will occur exactly inside the body (in the peritoneum), the main thing here is that it would not pierce request
      8. 0
        15 November 2021 21: 23
        The standard for ships is the standard practice of the US Navy, that's why it is a Standard. Very effective. 50 Standards from Burke will overload any air defense, in the ARM version - any missile defense. It was already written here that they do not really need a contact fuse, at the same remote detonation of the ship's antennas they are only affected in this way.
    2. +17
      13 November 2021 08: 40
      And I really thought that only it seemed to me that the article was too optimistic.
      I lie on my couch and begin to figure out how neglected I am with the knowledge of IUD technology.
    3. +3
      13 November 2021 10: 32
      First, the West is not far behind in missiles.

      Is there a direct analogue of at least "Mosquito"?
      Our rockets are huge

      This applies only to past generations, and even then not to all. "Onyxes" and "Zircons" fit perfectly into the UKSK ships and submarines.
      their speed does not allow them to be stealthy

      And confidently intercept. And not even intercept at all.
    4. -4
      13 November 2021 10: 51
      Franks and Angles are now spilling into the brink, for several reasons at once, so the "Perseus" is a big question. And it is not a fact that it will reach the stated parameters.
    5. -15
      13 November 2021 14: 12
      The greatness of our ship missiles (and others), it is broken by the possibility of aviation, even for ourselves. The last combat use on ships - the conflict at the Kerch bridge with Ukraine - no one began to shoot all sorts of cannons and anti-ship missiles, the Su-30 simply flew in and unwound all the ships at a moment and the conflict ended.
      1. +8
        13 November 2021 18: 14
        Quote: arkadiyssk
        The last combat use on ships - the conflict at the Kerch bridge with Ukraine - no one began to shoot all sorts of cannons and anti-ship missiles, the Su-30 simply flew in and unwound all the ships at a moment and the conflict ended.

        What movie did you see it in? bully
    6. +1
      13 November 2021 21: 33
      Quote: Sahalinets
      As always, Kaptsov writes nonsense.
      First, the West is not far behind in missiles. In the States, the LRASM is being brought to mind, which will also be launched from shipborne VPUs, the Norwegians have an NSM. Both with a large radius and unobtrusive. The Japanese got a three-speed ASM-3, albeit only for aviation. Franks and Angles are making a five-speed Perseus, and in a ship version. In addition, the firing of the Standard SAM against ships has been worked out.
      But about our superiority, I would not categorically state. Our missiles are huge, their speed does not allow us to make them stealthy, and they develop it at high altitudes, where they are clearly visible. In general, until they have been checked in a battle with a serious enemy, you should not throw hats.


      NSM with a large radius - only 185 km.


      NSM (Naval Strike Missile) is an anti-ship missile developed by the Norwegian company Kongsberg Defense & Aerospace to replace the Penguin missile. Developments were carried out for 15 years, the rocket passed all tests and was put into service in 2007.

      Main performance characteristics:
      Length - 3,96m.
      Wingspan - 1,4 m.
      Weight with an accelerator - 407 kg.
      Weight without accelerator - 344 kg.
      Flight speed - 0,95 M. (which is approximately equal to 1100 km / h.)
      Launch range minimum - 3 km / maximum - 185 km.
      Accelerator - solid propellant
      EngineTRD Microturbo TRI-40
      Warhead (weight) - 120 kg.
      This weapon, first of all, will be equipped with the Norwegian naval frigates, as well as the transport of the coast guard. The missile has the ability to launch from aircraft and wheeled chassis, such as a truck. It can also target non-coastal targets and work quite successfully on them.


      In addition, there is an opinion that the rocket failed.
      . All Internet screamers position this rocket as another super duper development, which has no analogues in the world and is able to defeat and burn any ship. But the rocket has a serious flaw. Its vulnerability lies in the TERCOM system. This system compares 2 electronic maps of the terrain, the first is laid in advance, and the second is what the onboard radar actually sees. Based on these data, the rocket corrects its flight. Everything is fine, the system is working, but there is a nuance. How can such a system make adjustments at sea or in the desert? There is no relief in the sea, in the desert, too, the dunes do not stand still, and only GPS correction remains. The fact that RFEW can jam signals is a well-known fact, I read that there is a possibility of signal substitution, but this information is unreliable. If the Rocket cannot correct the flight, then it will either fly off to the wrong place, or simply fall when the fuel runs out. And if we consider that its speed is subsonic and the range is not great, only the ubiquitous stealth technology remains. The benefits of which are very much embellished by the Americans. The missile does not even match the Soviet Malachite missile in speed and maneuverability. Malachite had 10 times more weight and dimensions, but so it carries 800 kg of explosives, so it was designed 30 years earlier and was a good rocket for its time.

      In my opinion, this super rocket NSM is just another "zilch". There is nothing breakthrough and promising in it. An attempt to do at least something to counterbalance the "backward" and torn to pieces Russia.

      https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/61089b2097036011549ea1a6/perspektivnaia-evropeiskaia-protivokorabelnaia-raketa-nsm-naval-strike-missile-614bf41b23e2445afbe386e7
      1. +1
        18 November 2021 16: 48
        "This is its vulnerability in the TERCOM system." ///
        ----
        The Americans redesigned the GOS of this Norwegian missile.
        Added infrared imaging.
        That is, they installed a scanning IR video camera.
        And after that they bought these missiles from the Norwegians for their ships.
        Nobody lets the anti-ship missiles reach the maximum range. This is risky - expensive thing, the stock is small:
        will be lost and fall into the sea.
        Real distances are about 100 km.
        To catch a moving target - a ship, until it has gone far to the side after external target designation.
    7. 0
      14 November 2021 10: 08
      As always, Kaptsov writes nonsense.

      This is right.
      Everything else is vanity of vanities.
    8. +2
      14 November 2021 22: 16
      And I agree with the author that our missiles are still cooler! hi the explanation is simple: a different concept of fighting at sea, due to the absence of aviation!
      There are 2 ways to overcome air defense: high speed, this is our method, and sneak up, this is a bourgeois way.
      Our method, in my opinion, is more effective: missiles fly high and are easier to detect, but very difficult to shoot down! They fly at a height not accessible to many missiles, and of those that are able to get them there, not many are really capable of shooting down. And short-range air defenses have huge interception problems. A high flight altitude, gives an overview for finding a target, reducing the dependence on target illumination, high speed, also reduces the target illumination time and allows you to deliver a preemptive strike.
      Bourgeois missiles fly slowly and low, which makes target illumination an extremely important task, removed the firefly and the missile strike can pass by. And subsonic targets, a fairly simple target for short-range air defense.
    9. 0
      15 November 2021 13: 52
      Our missiles are huge, their speed does not allow us to make them stealthy, and they develop it at a high altitude.


      About the great height - where do the firewood come from?
      Mosquitoes fly at low altitudes.
      Domestic anti-ship missiles have shown themselves well in the Indo-Pakistani conflicts.
      And by the way, how did the flagship of the Israeli fleet, Eilat, die?
  3. -4
    13 November 2021 07: 35
    It remains to be compared in terms of cost - which is more effective than one Vulcan or twenty / thirty exos harpoons.
  4. +7
    13 November 2021 07: 50
    By the way, this is a good start. Plus it costs .. Tokmo could be described in more detail in the described samples of target designation and guidance means. For rocket weapons have supplanted artillery systems (and therefore the armor, loved by some, as a means of countering a projectile) from modern ships due to a much greater range of use without eye contact, having reduced them to auxiliary functions. electronic warfare and air defense systems. So, the most interesting thing in the anti-ship missile system is the methods of guidance, target designation, the ability to withstand external influences, and therefore the ability to fly to the target and fulfill its mission. That's the fun part!
    Sorry for the possible confusion (head aches wassat ). But the point, I think, is clear feel
    1. +1
      13 November 2021 23: 15
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Therefore, in the modern sense, the "armor" of a ship means electronic warfare and air defense systems.

      Andrei Nikolaevich, well, you can't exaggerate everything to such an extent!
      On modern warships, for your information, there are still reservations. On AVU - Kevlar and 40mm alloy steel armor plates - reactor compartment and cellars. Our 1144 also has a reservation.
      Therefore, not everything is as straightforward as it might seem at first glance.
      AHA.
      1. 0
        14 November 2021 09: 04
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        Therefore, not everything is as straightforward as it might seem at first glance.

        I know that very well. But if you please - aircraft carriers with a displacement of over 70000 tons. and our "eagles" for 23000t. It is quite possible to cram armor to protect the same reactors and cellars.
        But Oleg always lamented that artillery ships with a displacement several times smaller than those indicated by you were more booked smile Even light cruisers of 6-7 tons. carried 000mm KMO protection. And the current representatives of such a displacement, in addition to anti-splinter protection made of thin steel, which thread of the compartment with computers cannot be compared with them. smile hi Therefore, if the cruisers of the mid-40s still had a chance to maintain at least their speed when hit by a projectile, then formally everything that got into modern ships will cause damage. For they don't even smell like 15-20% of the displacement given for booking. request
        1. 0
          14 November 2021 11: 00
          then formally everything that gets into modern ships will cause damage

          Correctly burn and drown from the first hit
          there was a chance to save at least a move when hit by a projectile

          It's strange to lose a ship just because of a downed radar

          Only Burk's unused ammunition load can cost 1/3 of a destroyer, it is advisable to keep it and unload it from the damaged ship.
          1. 0
            15 November 2021 19: 33
            like the latest upgrade allows berks to use other people's radars? I am absolutely sure that other berks can give target designations and awaks. but even a radar from an F-35? so the loss of the radar is not yet combat effectiveness.
            1. 0
              15 November 2021 20: 44
              like the latest upgrade allows berks to use other people's radars?

              They have all the technical capabilities for this.

              To what extent this is implemented in practice, for each individual destroyer, there is no such data
              so the loss of the radar is not yet combat effectiveness.

              They still have an anti-aircraft missile system, helicopters, Tomahawkies with pre-assigned coastal targets and many other capabilities.

              Communication, in the 21st century, in theory, satellite Iridium can be in the pocket of any officer
  5. 0
    13 November 2021 07: 57
    Quote: Sahalinets
    As always, Kaptsov writes nonsense.
    First, the West is not far behind in missiles. In the States, the LRASM is being brought to mind, which will also be launched from shipborne VPUs, the Norwegians have an NSM. Both with a large radius and unobtrusive. The Japanese got a three-speed ASM-3, albeit only for aviation. Franks and Angles are making a five-speed Perseus, and in a ship version. In addition, the firing of the Standard SAM against ships has been worked out.
    But about our superiority, I would not categorically state. Our missiles are huge, their speed does not allow us to make them stealthy, and they develop it at high altitudes, where they are clearly visible. In general, until they have been checked in a battle with a serious enemy, you should not throw hats.

    totally agree with you.
  6. 0
    13 November 2021 08: 25
    A very intelligible and sensible article, without the digital garbage inherent in Damantsev's articles. Respect to the author with a plus.
  7. -2
    13 November 2021 08: 27
    Yes, our PCRs are more powerful due to their size, you can't start onyxes from that, and only the calibers have reached the size of that
  8. +1
    13 November 2021 08: 33
    In opposition to Onyx / Mosquito / Basalt / Amethyst / etc. with NSM, RBS, etc. somewhere in the Baltic, Korea, the Aegean Sea, the Adriatic, off the coast of Japan, Indo-China, Argentina, Norway, Denmark, etc. and so on, I would bet on subsonic missiles. With ocean rockets, you still need to go out into the ocean, at the same time, the world is full of places where they are useless like a Zweishander in a telephone booth or a dense forest
    1. +4
      13 November 2021 23: 41
      Quote: Tlauicol
      I would bet on subsonic missiles.

      1.The speed of the anti-ship missile system determines the time it is in the firing zone, the ability of a certain part of the missile defense system to intercept it.
      2.In modern conditions, the time factor has acquired a decisive importance: whoever is faster wins ...
      3. All other things being equal, a faster anti-ship missile has higher kinetic energy and is capable of causing more damage than a subsonic anti-ship missile. When tested at the Feodosiya test site Av. the inert version of the P-500, when it hit the target barge loaded with empty barrels, broke it in half!
      With ocean rockets still need to go out into the ocean, at the same time, the world is full of places where they are useless
      And why should a DBK with such anti-ship missiles go to sea if it has enough range to track targets throughout the World Cup !?
      And why would anyone place SUCH rockets where they are useless? This is some kind of mockery of common sense, then it will work if this happens. bully
      1. -1
        14 November 2021 05: 36
        1.2. And from height Yes The sense of speed, if you have to fly over the skerries, and NSM jump out from behind the cape
        3.Brk stand, destroyers, frigates, MRKs, ... go in straits and narrows. And the enemy ships too. Get some Hamina or Skjeld in the Onyx / Mosquito / Volcano Islands or Fjord
        1. 0
          14 November 2021 11: 50
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Get some Hamina or Skjeld in the Onyx / Mosquito / Volcano Islands or Fjord

          All depends on the direction of the approach of the RCC to the goal. If from the sea, then it is possible and will hook, and so yes - only by assault aircraft or smart MLRS with a homing head and an electronic photo in the brain.
        2. +1
          14 November 2021 14: 18
          Quote: Tlauicol
          The sense of speed, if you have to fly over the skerries,

          Well, yes, that's what the fleet is for, to cross the skerries.
          1. 0
            14 November 2021 16: 57
            Quote: SVD68
            Quote: Tlauicol
            The sense of speed, if you have to fly over the skerries,

            Well, yes, that's what the fleet is for, to cross the skerries.

            You'd better tell us how you will beat the enemy in the straits, narrows and island zone? Or just fight off his missiles? I will listen
            1. +2
              14 November 2021 18: 49
              Quote: Tlauicol
              You'd better tell us how you will beat the enemy in the straits, narrows and island zone? Or just fight off his missiles? I will listen

              Do not deceive yourself, the straits, narrows and the island zone are owned by the one who owns the coast. Therefore, it is necessary either to seize the coast of narrows and straits and islands by a military operation or landing, or to block the straits on the distant approaches.
              The fleet hiding in the skerries is a dead fleet that does more harm to its owner than to the enemy.
      2. 0
        15 November 2021 19: 37
        like onyx only at the beginning of the high-speed, but at the time of hitting the target is already close to the sound?
  9. -2
    13 November 2021 08: 58
    Everything is great, of course. And the flight of the rocket at the edge of the water surface is impressive. But what about the range? And with long-range targeting? I like our concept better. A flock of missiles flies: one is high, the target is looking for, the rest are below. The times of single missile attacks are in the past.
    1. +14
      13 November 2021 10: 59
      Quote: Sergey985
      But what about the range? And with long-range targeting?

      This is the point. At the moment, the control center is given at a distance of less than 300 km and then by a helicopter, the ship itself can give the control center for several tens of kilometers. Regardless of whose ship and helicopter, these are just the laws of propagation of radio waves. Hence the range of their anti-ship missiles.
      Therefore, planes are the main weapon against ships.
      Quote: Sergey985
      I like our concept better. A flock of missiles flies: one is high, the target is looking for, the rest are below.

      This concept has been tested once with controversial results. In reality, our concept of using long-range ship-borne anti-ship missiles is called "at random." He will shoot back somewhere, there are a lot of them, maybe they will hit someone.
      This is me talking about Russia, basically, in the USSR, aviation was also the main anti -arable means.

      The real creation of a combat control system, which is designed to combine high-precision bombs and missiles, is the responsibility of the United States. It is called the Golden Horde, but this is again within the Air Force.
      This is also implemented in the LRASM missiles.
      1. -3
        13 November 2021 11: 32
        This is also implemented in the LRASM missiles.

        Even on the commercial Lrasm launch from planes

        And what are the ships going to fight with? They can shoot at the enemy if there is no Hornet nearby
        1. +8
          13 November 2021 11: 50
          Quote: Santa Fe
          And what are the ships going to fight with?

          You yourself know what. Harpoon, exoset, gabriel, NSM, RBS15, otomat, etc. What determines their range, I wrote above.
          1. 0
            13 November 2021 12: 09
            You yourself know what. Harpoon, exoset, gabriel, NSM, RBS15, otomat, etc.

            None of them are found on modern American and British ships.

            I agree that NSM is more effective than Onyx. If she stood on ships
            1. +7
              13 November 2021 12: 50
              Quote: Santa Fe
              None of them are found on modern American and British ships.

              Yes?
              1. +2
                13 November 2021 13: 04
                Cook belongs to the old sub-series

                All relatively new Berks go without missiles, the last 15 years, dozens of destroyers
                1. +6
                  13 November 2021 19: 48
                  Quote: Santa Fe
                  Cook belongs to the old sub-series

                  All relatively new Berks go without missiles, the last 15 years, dozens of destroyers

                  Oleg are you kidding or what? SM will shoot and the result will be even worse than
                  Quote: Santa Fe
                  In 1972, a pair of Shrikes zoomed in on the cruiser Warden off the coast of Vietnam. Nearby explosions damaged the setup. According to the commander, the cruiser lost 2/3 of its combat capabilities.

                  In addition, we do not know the possibilities of electronic filling of different versions of SM. Since they are anti-aircraft, that is, the possibility of targeting interference. It may be possible to send them over the horizon according to the program for the autopilot (through the inertial navigation system), and then they themselves are not guided to the target like a radio beacon, or even through their AGSN like SM-6, who knows ?.
                  The anti-ship missile "Harpoon" was removed from the "Berks" because there was another opportunity to damage enemy ships, even more effective than the 8 modest "Harpoon".
                  1. +1
                    13 November 2021 20: 44
                    Quote: KKND
                    It may be possible to send them over the horizon according to the program for the autopilot (through the inertial navigation system), and then they themselves are not guided to the target like a radio beacon, or even through their AGSN like SM-6, who knows ?.



                    Elements of the NIFC-CA system have been used since 2013. Currently, the standard NIFC-CA configuration combines SM-6 missiles with E-2D Hawkeye early warning and control aircraft. These "flying command posts" detect targets hundreds of kilometers away, transmitting information to the operational information center on the flagship of an aircraft carrier strike group and directing American fighters and cruise missiles to enemy targets.


                    The fifth generation fighter F-35 has successfully completed important flight tests. While in the air, he, with the help of his sensors, spotted the target and transmitted its data to the Aegis missile defense control center. The ground-based launcher fired a missile - and successfully hit the target in the air.

                    The test is critical not only for the aircraft, but also for the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA). The F-35 can now transmit the data it has collected to the Aegis air defense system.
                    .
            2. +4
              13 November 2021 13: 15
              Quote: Santa Fe
              I agree that NSM is more effective than Onyx. If she stood on ships

              FFG (X) frigates will have up to 16 NSM anti-ship missiles ...
            3. The comment was deleted.
      2. 0
        13 November 2021 20: 27
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        This concept has been tested 1 time

        Can I link? Only a serious one
      3. 0
        13 November 2021 21: 26
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        This is the point. At the moment, the control center is given at a distance of less than 300 km and then by helicopter, the ship itself can give Control center for several tens of kilometers... Regardless of whose ship and helicopter, these are just the laws of propagation of radio waves. Hence the range of their anti-ship missiles.

        Ships have over-the-horizon surface wave radars or backscatter radars. And they work for hundreds of kilometers. The truth is not to say that these are reliable and accurate methods.
        1. +2
          13 November 2021 22: 00
          Quote: KKND
          The truth is not to say that these are reliable and accurate methods.

          That's it. It is possible to detect, but the control center cannot be issued. And there is a strong dependence on natural conditions. Nevertheless, very important and necessary radars, only additional reconnaissance means are needed to issue the control center, with which we have the biggest problems.
          If only for them:
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik
          In reality, our concept of using long-range ship-borne anti-ship missiles is called "at random." He will shoot back somewhere, there are a lot of them, maybe they will hit someone.
        2. 0
          14 November 2021 00: 34
          Quote: KKND
          The ships have over-the-horizon surface wave radars ...
          Alas, there are none ... these are purely ground-based "structures" very extended, with spaced emitting and receiving antennas ... So, there are no such radars on ships ...
          AHA.
          1. 0
            14 November 2021 01: 08
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            So, there are no such radars on ships.

            Over-the-horizon work has been announced at Mineral and Positive. True, if on the phenomenon of super-refraction (as it is written in the Positive), then this is very conditional.
      4. +2
        14 November 2021 00: 21
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        At the moment, the control center is given at a distance of less than 300 km and then by a helicopter, the ship itself can give the control center for several tens of kilometers.

        1. You have a very limited understanding of the modern methods of control of the RCC carriers. You completely forget about the VI and VZOI of the fleet forces, ASBU and other things ... At least for 2500-3000 km, they provide the determination of the presence of NK in the area (in the OVMC!), Which is covered by the review of the GOS RCC.
        2. A helicopter in modern conditions and control center? Yes, his radar will be hammered with an aiming interference after the first stroke with a shovel. But the passive means of the ship's control center in the radio silence mode and with special maneuvering - provide the control center for the missile system at the full range of the weapon being carried ... And this is in addition to the KS (spacecraft), which also will not leave our RCRs with their mercy ... Therefore, , no need to piss ... in the compote! and give up ahead of time. The war hasn't started yet! And it did not start because the Americans know "why a pound of dashing" from these Russians. Therefore, AVU J. Kennedy ran from us for 30 knots all over the Middle Sea, just to prevent the aircraft carrier from approaching D using Basalt. I remember that very well.
        3. About systems ... combat ... the Yankees ... Well, they are trying to catch up with us. I will not grovel a lot, I will give only one fact: in the shaggy 1977, I happened to witness how racks 105 and 106 of our KSBU work ...
        I am still impressed, although until 2010 I had to "see" and try a lot more.
        It is my deep conviction that we need to be afraid of the enemies of the state, "internal", so that Russia does not repeat the fate of the USSR.
        Somehow, however.
    2. 0
      13 November 2021 11: 27
      well, if you so confidently assert that the time of single anti-ship missiles is in the past ... then give at least one example when, in reality, a ship would have "overwhelmed" at least one anti-ship missile system with its air defense weapons ...
      even under "greenhouse conditions" during exercises, to overwhelm the same target missile is still a problem ...
      as a result, in the "match" PKR-ship, the latter loses with a dry score ....
      1. +7
        13 November 2021 12: 01
        give at least one example, when, in reality, the ship would have "overwhelmed" at least one anti-ship missile system with its air defense weapons ...

        Such cases are rare
        During the "War in the Gulf" in February 1991, the "Sea Dart" air defense missile system "Gloucester" was shot down by the Iraqi anti-ship missile system "Silkworm". Although it may have been the Soviet anti-ship missile P-15. In any case, two anti-ship missiles with a large flight radius were launched from coastal launchers at ships of the anti-Iraqi coalition. One was taken to the side by interference, the second was destroyed by the air defense system.

        at the Death Gate, a connection of US ships appeared as part of the Arleigh Burke-class missile destroyers Mason (DDG-87) and Nitze (DDG-94), as well as the so-called Ponce forward floating supply base (AFSB (I) -15), from an Austin-class landing ship. This flotilla patrolled leisurely off the Arabian coast, as if provoking the Houthis and Republican guards. And they got their way.

        On October 9, at about 19.00 local time, from the coast, the destroyer Mason and the mother ship Ponce were attacked by two anti-ship missiles. To intercept them, Mason fired two SM-2 anti-aircraft missiles and one ESSM. Nulka active jamming missiles (RPAP) were also fired. As a result, one anti-ship missile Noor was shot down by an American missile defense system, and the second, apparently, was withdrawn by the RPAP Nulka and fell into the sea. In other words, the attack was successfully repulsed. On October 12, history repeated itself. At 18.00 local time, Mason and Ponce were again attacked from the coast by two anti-ship missiles. And again the attack was repelled by the missiles of the American destroyer. Anti-ship missiles were shot down at a distance of about 13 km from American ships.

        The main means of dealing with anti-ship missiles is not air defense, but electronic warfare and traps.
        For example, during the Yom Kippur War, the Arabs fired 54 anti-ship missiles into Israeli ships. Thanks to the use of electronic warfare and traps by Israeli ships, not a single one hit the target.
        1. -2
          13 November 2021 12: 26
          Have you seen the P-15 from the times of Khrushchev? ...
          it is almost the size of a moment-17 with epr> 1 m2 if that ...
          such a badge does not fill up the AIA of the 80s, well, an obvious bad manners ... and even more so to powder the analog brains of a dinosaur with modern electronic warfare means ...
          the fact that the electronic warfare system is now much more effective than the AIA, I agree with you unambiguously ...
          1. +4
            13 November 2021 12: 57
            Give at least one example, when, in reality, a ship would have "overwhelmed" at least one anti-ship missile system with its air defense weapons.

            You asked, I answered you.
            In addition, you have not read my post to the end.
          2. 0
            13 November 2021 13: 19
            P15 termite is much less. With a kayak deuce size
      2. +3
        14 November 2021 00: 41
        Quote: kepmor
        give at least one example, when, in reality, the ship would have "overwhelmed" at least one anti-ship missile system with its air defense weapons ...
        even under "greenhouse conditions" during exercises,

        Skr pr.11540 UNFERESTABLE (128 BrNK 12 DNA BF) for several years in a row was the best ship in air defense, even the title of rumor was given to him - "cleaner". Because he shot down all PRK targets going to the KUG with a parameter less than 2 km. He shot down their SAM Dagger in AUTOMATIC MODE, and this is 100% fact! Yes
        1. -4
          14 November 2021 03: 14
          If Undaunted is an example of an air defense ship KUG, this is quite a disaster.
        2. 0
          14 November 2021 09: 50
          "Cleaner" 1/3 of the horizon? Or even 1/6?
  10. +5
    13 November 2021 09: 07
    NATO ships were helpless

    Yes, and who doubted. They all have planes, tanks, and people, everyone is helpless. laughing
  11. +19
    13 November 2021 10: 16
    Kaptsov would write together with Damantsev - that would be trash !!! Together they would have torn NATO like Tuzik a heating pad!
    1. +1
      13 November 2021 20: 07
      Quote: Undecim
      Kaptsov would write together with Damantsev - that would be trash !!! Together they would have torn NATO like Tuzik a heating pad!

      So Kaptsov, at the beginning of his work on the site, actively "glorified" for "West". He praised Western technologies and tore the USSR heating pad like Tuzik.
      1. +3
        13 November 2021 20: 22
        So Kaptsov, at the beginning of his work on the site, actively "glorified" for "West".

        According to historical facts, the first weather vane was created back in 48 BC.
  12. +8
    13 November 2021 10: 29
    Funnels are visible on the warhead body - a real "cumulative shotgun"!
    A real empty-headed, uneducated, ignorant chatterbox.
  13. PPD
    +2
    13 November 2021 10: 30
    it had little to do with the naval confrontation of the real "superpowers".

    In the confrontation between the powers, on the other side, the main striking force is the aircraft carrier.
    Well, the Americans resisted the "Soviet aggression" - because there Tomahawks are in high esteem. lol
    Low-going pkr are generally a difficult target for an air defense system, especially at that time.
    And shooting from an air defense system at ships is quite a normal application mode.
    1. -10
      13 November 2021 10: 55
      shooting from an air defense system at ships is quite a normal application mode.

      Not normal

      First, you will need to equip the SAM with a contact fuse, which most anti-aircraft missiles do not have.



      Secondly, if we talk about the Cold War, then there was no missile defense with an active head. The target had to be illuminated by the ship's radar (as in the illustration)

      As a result, the firing range is limited by line of sight. For surface targets - 35-40 km. Maybe it will ride against Iranians or Libyan boats
      1. +8
        13 November 2021 11: 33
        Oleg, learn the mathematics part before banging on the keys ...
        even the old lady "Wasp" from the 60s shot a light bullet in the NK ...
        about the "contact fuse" vosche masterpiece ...
        1. -6
          13 November 2021 11: 47
          about the "contact fuse" vosche masterpiece ...

          So share your opinion

          Saying "Wooshche masterpiece" is not an argument
          1. +5
            13 November 2021 12: 06
            Of course, you can share, but ... so in 10-15 years, when the secrecy label will be removed ...
            today, by the way, is the day of secretaries and SPSniki ...
            1. -1
              13 November 2021 12: 16
              All clear. Thanks for your valuable additions to the discussion)
          2. +7
            13 November 2021 12: 08
            Can you specifically name enemy anti-aircraft missiles, on which there is no contact fuse, used against NK ?.
            1. -2
              13 November 2021 13: 06
              Can you specifically name enemy anti-aircraft missiles, on which there is no contact fuse, used against NK ?.

              This is your point of view, your arguments

              The task of proof lies with the person who made the argument.
              1. +6
                13 November 2021 14: 33
                You said there were no contact fuses, not me
      2. +16
        13 November 2021 11: 59
        In April 2021, during an exercise, SM-6 hit an over-the-horizon training target. The control center was from the UAV. Another confirmation that their missiles are capable of hitting ships.
        About the contact fuse, yes, it's a masterpiece.

        https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40341/navy-sm-6-missile-successfully-hit-a-target-barge-during-big-manned-unmanned-team-test
        1. -6
          13 November 2021 12: 12
          About the contact fuse, yes, it's a masterpiece.

          Tell your version

          Mine is based on SyDart shooting at radio-controlled boats of the Brave type. In the 70s. It described why it was required to turn off the proximity fuse and have a contact one. Now what may have changed, educate the public with your knowledge
          1. +1
            14 November 2021 14: 21
            The mode of the ancient Wasp "Marine Target" coarsens the radio fuse to exclude early detonation from the water surface. Azy SUZRK, 3 course VVMUZ
          2. -1
            15 November 2021 09: 53
            Quote: Santa Fe

            Tell your version

            Mine is based on SyDart shooting at radio-controlled Brave boats. In the 70s.

            70s !!! Charles! 70s !!! You'd better be silent ... To talk about the possibilities of weapons in service at the end of 2021, pulling data from the 70s by the ears ... He is an artist, he sees it that way ...
            Now it is clear where the ears of that nonsense that you write about modern weapons grows from - from the data of the 60-70s))) they have nothing to do with the present.
            1. 0
              15 November 2021 20: 49
              70s !!! Charles! 70s !!!

              The laws of physics don't change

              You cannot use the same radio fuses when attacking sea and air targets

              Above, the comrade pointed out the need to "coarse" the fuse, zur requires such a mode when firing at ships
              the nonsense that you write about modern weapons

              For example
  14. +1
    13 November 2021 10: 34
    Tomahawk Block Va, possibly in the future
  15. 0
    13 November 2021 11: 06
    A "Harpoon", "Penguin" is it not a pkr?
  16. +15
    13 November 2021 11: 13
    Dear readers may doubt the veracity of the statement. Pointing to existing Naval Strike Missile (NSM), Exocet or AGM-84 Harpoon. However, there are no contradictions here. All of the above examples of anti-ship missiles appear as nondescript products against the background of domestic ZM55 "Onyx" or ZM80 "Moskit".

    Dear readers will pay attention to the fact that Harpoon or Exocet have experience in combat use, while Onyx or Mosquito do not. Polygon experience and combat are two different things.
    Moreover, there is no experience in the combat use of over-the-horizon missiles, there is no experience in the combat use of supersonic missiles in general.
    The question arises - what will be the actions of NATO ships when they meet a surface enemy? Defender vs. Gorshkov.

    There is no question. That Defender, that Arlie Burke will first of all use anti-aircraft missiles - Aster-15 or SM-6 or SM-2 in the required quantity, in order to deprive the enemy of combat capability, then they will use guns or Harpoons to finish off.
    Something like during the Mantis operation.
    An Iranian corvette fired an RGM-86 "Harpoon" anti-ship missile (American-made), but as a result of the impact on it of the electronic warfare means of American ships, the missile missed. Reacting to the attack, the frigate USS "Simpson" fired two SM-1MR anti-aircraft missiles at the Iranian ship [3]. Both SM-1MR missiles hit the Joshan, destroying its superstructure. Following this, the missile cruiser Wainwright launched another SM-1ER missile, which struck the hull and destroyed almost the entire corvette's crew. "Joshan", nevertheless, remained afloat, although it was completely disabled (all hits fell above the waterline), and then the frigate "Badley" fired a Harpoon missile at the Iranian corvette. He did not achieve a hit - the superstructures of the Iranian ship were almost completely destroyed by hits from SM-1 missiles and the silhouette of the ship was almost hidden in the waves. After that, not wanting to spend more missiles, American ships approached the "Joshan" and finished it off with artillery fire.

    Here is a simple explanation why the West is not chasing the characteristics of the RCC - they play a supporting role.
    And if the ships are not in the zone of direct radio visibility, then the main means are aviation, not anti-ship missiles.
    The design thought moved on. Among the promising projects, the R-27K with a range of 900 km stood out. The world's first ballistic missile to attack ships from space. Radars and emitting antenna devices on board the ships of the aircraft carrier group acted as "radio beacons" for it.

    Yes, once this missile hit a barge with a radio beacon at the range. But in general, it became clear that it was unrealistic to get into a moving ship with the help of single trajectory corrections, so that it was not even put into service. And it was clear that the enemy would not have radio beacons for guidance.
    The American way of dealing with surface ships has not changed. The aircraft still had every chance of destroying the ship with conventional weapons.

    Slightly changed. Corrected aerial bombs with a seeker appeared.
    The danger of such a threat was confirmed by the Falklands Conflict. Aviation bombed 12 ships.
    And if the British did not have carrier-based aircraft, shackling the enemy, they would have melted everything. The effectiveness of shipborne air defense systems was highly controversial.
    And each of the rivals saw the positive features of their own decision. Until the sinking of the Israeli "Eilat" (1967) forced the whole world to take a fresh look at the use of anti-ship missiles.

    And nothing has changed. Already a few years later, in the Yom Kippur War, anti-ship missiles with radar seeker showed low resistance against the electronic warfare of a combat-ready warship. Of the fifty Soviet-made Arab missiles, not a single one hit Israeli ships as a result of the use of electronic warfare by the Israelis.
    A similar result was shown by the use by the Argentines of the French anti-ship missiles against the British in the Falklands War - not a single hit on a combat-ready warship. Moreover, it was not possible to drown a single warship using anti-ship missiles.
    In general, in the West, they look at the RCC as an auxiliary tool, and they look.
    The main means against NK is aviation, both coastal and deck-based, has been and is since the Second World War.
    1. -3
      13 November 2021 11: 28
      then they will use guns or Harpoons

      No Harpoons. that's funny

      The British and Americans took them off the ships long ago

      Here is the 117th number, one of the last Berks, no pkr
      Aster- 15

      Does Asta have a contact fuse?
      Something like during the Mantis operation.

      Against Iranian boats, such a ride
      Very good example (no)
      1. +8
        13 November 2021 12: 14
        No Harpoons. that's funny

        The British and Americans took them off the ships long ago

        will use tools

        which they really do. It makes no difference if the enemy is incapable of combat.
      2. +3
        13 November 2021 12: 53
        Does Asta have a contact fuse?

        I did not understand them, but they write that it explodes, including upon direct contact with the target.
        Detonation
        mechanism
        Direct contact or proximity

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aster_(missile_family)
        Against Iranian boats, such a ride
        Very good example (no)

        How will it differ when used against a larger ship? By the number of anti-aircraft missiles used? The launch rate of anti-aircraft missiles is very high
        1. 0
          13 November 2021 21: 07
          And how will it differ when used against a larger ship?

          Which is equipped with anti-ship missiles?

          He can shoot anyone who tries to use a missile defense system.
          1. 0
            14 November 2021 04: 14
            The launch time of the air defense missile, taking into account the preparation before launch, is much less than the anti-ship missile system.
            The speed of the zur at a short distance is about 4M.
            Until the launch of the anti-ship missile system, the ship will already receive several zur and will not be before launch
      3. 0
        14 November 2021 00: 55
        What for? To take the place?

        -> Raytheon will provide 32 Maritime Strike Tomahawk upgrade kits in 2020; 50 kits in 2021, and 80 kits in 2022, at an estimated cost of about $ 457.9 million.

        A total of 162 missiles are capable of destroying ships at a distance of about 1000 miles.
    2. -3
      13 November 2021 11: 39
      Falklands War - no hits on combat-ready warship

      There were only six missiles for the entire theater of operations. Only SIX Karl!

      All released

      Total - Sheffield (1), container ship (2), Glamorgan (1). Two more went into milk

      Here is Glamorgan, he was fully operational, he did not turn off the radars. Leaves happy, with Exocet in the fifth point

      Moreover, it was not possible to drown a single warship using anti-ship missiles.

      Why, Shaffield burned out and drowned

      Well, yes, it's hard to sink someone with rockets
      165 kg combat honor with 56 kg of explosives, not enough for a ship, only if it successfully gets stuck with a working engine
      1. +4
        13 November 2021 12: 35
        Total - Sheffield (1), container ship (2), Glamorgan (1).

        Sheffield was unprepared, the container ship was not a warship, the glamorgan was hit by an unexpected surprise strike from the shore - the Argentine Kulibins were able to adapt the Exosets from destroyers to launch from a coastal installation.
        There were only six missiles for the entire theater of operations.

        There were more of them, they were on the Argentine destroyers. Another thing is that the Argentines did not use them.
        Why, Shaffield burned out and drowned

        The destroyer burned, not burned out, the fire was extinguished by other ships, but not drowned from being hit by a rocket.
        The destroyer sank a week later while being towed to South Georgia for repairs - not only the commander of Sheffield knew how to be negligent, there were also worthy people in Her Majesty's fleet.
        The container ship, by the way, also sank not directly as a result of an anti-ship missile hit, but a few days later, during towing to the place of repair.
        Leaves happy, with Exocet in the fifth point

        It retained its combat effectiveness, as a result of the hit, only a light hangar for the helicopter was destroyed and several people died.
        Well, yes, it's hard to sink someone with rockets

        If the anti-ship missile does not hit the ship, then it makes no difference how many explosives it has in the warhead.
        1. -2
          13 November 2021 13: 01
          container ship - not a battle ship

          Was in the squadron, among the warships

          The rockets chose him because he was the fattest
          was hit by an unexpected sudden blow

          Should have been warned, so what

          Why does a warship need radars and weapons
          The destroyer was on fire, not burned out, the fire was extinguished


          The fire went out because everything burned out except the walls
          The destroyer sank a week later while being towed

          Yes, it burned out so much that the crew had to be removed from it.

          Where and why then dragged the charred ruin, this is the tenth thing
          It retained its combat effectiveness, as a result of the hit, only a light hangar for the helicopter was destroyed and several people died.

          There was no need to cut the warhead
          Then someone came out believed that the CM-6 with 64 kg could severely damage the ship
          If the anti-ship missile does not hit the ship

          French 4 out of 6 hit
          1. +3
            13 November 2021 15: 27
            ... Was in the squadron, among the warships

            But a battleship is not and the slave is not protected
            Should have been warned, so what

            Accidental luck at one time, thanks to handicraft work, the second time will not work
            There was no need to cut the warhead

            The rocket was passing by and only accidentally hooked on a light hangar
            Then someone came out believed that the CM-6 with 64 kg could severely damage the ship

            The warhead of an anti-aircraft missile is fragmentation, for equipment and radar of the ship it is more dangerous than a semi-armor-piercing or high-explosive anti-ship missile, if it does not explode inside the hull
            Moreover, sm-6 would have exploded in any way thanks to a proximity fuse.
            The modern ship is stuffed with electronics, without it it is an iron box and a target for the enemy.
            A container ship is not a ship, but a ship. Of all the anti-ship missiles, 2 got into the sky-ready ships, and only one was able to cause serious damage.
            1. +2
              13 November 2021 20: 40
              Quote: Avior
              Then someone came out believed that the CM-6 with 64 kg could severely damage the ship

              Fragmentation anti-aircraft missile warhead

              SM-6 in an anti-ship missile version with a kinetic warhead. During trials, it pierced the USS "Reuben James" frigate from top to bottom
              1. -2
                13 November 2021 20: 59
                During trials I pierced the frigate USS "Reuben James" from top to bottom

                For a ship with two dozen pressurized compartments, such a hit does not mean anything.

                Hole in the deck
                1. +1
                  13 November 2021 21: 04
                  Quote: Santa Fe
                  Hole in the deck

                  Tell that to poor USS "Reuben James" that went downhill. Such a missile with a kinetic warhead dives at a target at an angle of 90 at a speed of Mach 3-4 and breaks in half any ship up to and including a destroyer.
                  1. +2
                    13 November 2021 23: 25
                    She can't break the ship

                    It is negligible compared to the ship
                    USS "Reuben James"

                    It's strange, such frigates hammer 500 kg with bombs and harpoons during exercises, but here they immediately drowned from one hole
                    1. 0
                      13 November 2021 23: 44
                      Quote: Santa Fe
                      Strange

                      Nothing strange .. unless, of course, physics at school. For example: Ec = m · v2 / 2.
                      Then you would probably know that kinetic energy (which causes destruction both to buildings and ships) depends on two things - mass and (especially) the square of speed. And not on "strength" Strength is an intuitive garbage from people who are not particularly burdened with knowledge. Square speed is not so astonishing to the intuitive imagination, but a car at 60 km / h has twice the kinetic energy than the same car at 40 km / h.
                      SM-6 weighing 1 ton and at a terminal speed of Mach 3,5 has kinetic energy orders of magnitude higher than the energy of any projectile of any super-battleship, subsonic anti-ship missile or 500 kg bomb. It does not even need explosives. . Tears the ship apart. Like a hot water bottle
                      1. 0
                        14 November 2021 04: 46
                        unless of course physics at school. For example: Ec = m · v2 / 2.
                        Then you would probably know that kinetic energy (which inflicts destruction on buildings and ships) depends on two things - mass and (especially) the square of speed

                        If the ammunition has no durability, then all its kinetic energy will be spent ... You will not believe it. To destroy the ammunition itself hahaha

                        And further than writing about intuitive bullshit, just think about the existence of armor-piercing ammunition. For some reason, designers reduce the number of explosives, increasing strength, why? Same speed squared, same energy
                        at Mach 3,5 has kinetic energy orders of magnitude higher than the energy of any projectile

                        Will she be able to transfer this energy to the structure?

                        A modern ship will pierce through and fly away further, leaving a hole slightly larger than its diameter

                        If, in theory, you shoot at the armored deck of an MRT, the plastic ammunition will simply burst like an empty nut and melt
                      2. 0
                        14 November 2021 08: 35
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        If the ammunition does not have durability, then all its kinetic energy will be spent ... You will not believe it. To destroy the ammunition itself hahaha

                        Are you trying to increase the number of posts under the article provoking absurdism?)
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        For some reason, designers reduce the number of explosives, increasing strength, why? Same speed squared, same energy

                        The kinetic energy of the projectile (due to its much lower velocity compared to the SM-6) is too small to damage the vital systems of the ship that are inside. Therefore, the projectile has an explosive that should do this. Since the amount of explosives in the projectile is scanty, it should explode in the immediate vicinity, and the projectile itself serves only as a means of delivering explosives. The armor of the projectile is just a way to give it additional mass so that its energy would be sufficient to fulfill this purpose. If the ship's gun was able to give the projectile a terminal speed of Mach 4, no one would bother with booking shells
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        leaving a hole slightly larger than its diameter

                        Uh-huh ... The bullet also leaves a small hole at the entrance to the body ... but it provokes extensive internal injuries and the exit hole is ten times larger, and for some reason the person dies)
                      3. +2
                        14 November 2021 11: 22
                        able to give the projectile a terminal speed of Mach 4, no one would bother booking shells

                        See how BOPS works, check out the speeds

                        And what alloys are used for them. Filling rate. That would not have time to collapse and break through the barrier
                        Kinetic energy

                        Lead bullets of any caliber fired into the anvil turn into spray. All kinetic energy is spent on melting and vaporizing the bullet itself.

                        The swing 3 plastic rocket is just a hole through. in a modern ship, with deck decking thickness 4-6 mm

                        A plastic rocket at 3 swings, into the armored deck of an old ship, the debris of the rocket will evaporate, leaving a dent and a burnt trace on the obstacle
                        The bullet also leaves a small hole at the entrance to the body ... but provokes extensive internal

                        The body is soft tissue filled with fluids.
                        Stupid example
                      4. -2
                        14 November 2021 12: 03
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The body is soft tissue filled with fluids.

                        Is there a vacuum inside the ship?) Or is there air that, from the huge energy of the rocket, will create a shock wave in all directions, the collapsing insides of the ship will turn into fragments scattering with tremendous energy that will crumble the surface on their way, the ship is stuffed with electrical appliances, thousands of tons of fuel, the highways through which it flows, with many rockets with its own fuel and explosives ...
                        Stop writing your unscientific fantasies about harmless through holes
                      5. 0
                        14 November 2021 13: 09
                        Is there a vacuum inside the ship?

                        Air
                        Or is there air that from the huge energy of the rocket will create

                        Will not create

                        Water, unlike air, is incompressible, which is why such severe damage from torpedoes, for example
                        Stop writing your unscientific fantasies about harmless through holes


                        Supersonic P-35 hit the motor ship Vereshchagino, there are no casualties among the crew, the ship returned on its own

                        The mass of the inert warhead is 560 kg, the speed is 1,8 M
                      6. 0
                        14 November 2021 20: 16
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        If the ammunition does not have durability, then all its kinetic energy will be spent ... You will not believe it. To destroy the ammunition itself hahaha

                        It is not its kinetic energy that destroys the ammunition, but the resistance of the obstacle. The obstruction destroys the ammunition.
                        There is body # 1 target (speed zero) and there is body # 2 ammunition (high speed). And here the impact on body No. 1 depends both on the strength of these 2 bodies (the strength of the bonds of the molecules of these bodies, structure, etc.) and on the speed of body No. 2. It is impossible to say anything for sure, calculations on supercomputers are needed, so you, Oleg, are carrying on useless arguments about two dy two equals four.
                      7. 0
                        14 November 2021 15: 12
                        Quote: Liam
                        Durability is intuitive bullshit from people who are not particularly burdened with knowledge

                        No, strength is the property of a material to resist destruction under the influence of stresses arising from external forces.
                      8. 0
                        15 November 2021 12: 41
                        He doesn't even need explosives. . Tears the ship apart.

                        With such energy, it will simply break a hole for flight and that's it. What is the gap to pieces?
          2. +4
            13 November 2021 15: 28
            ... Yes, it burned out so much that the crew had to be removed from it.

            Still dragged for repairs
  17. 0
    13 November 2021 14: 33
    It is interesting to see a similar article with the history of the use of missiles as anti-ship missiles.
  18. +6
    13 November 2021 16: 04
    The absence of anti-ship missiles on modern ships of NATO countries has no worthy explanation.
    Has: this is the largest gang in the ocean, they do not need to break through the Aegis and drown the AUG, they will shower their opponents with hats (127-mm artillery and missiles) if suddenly the nuclear submarine or aviation is busy with other things.
    Even in the US Navy, with its unlimited budget, destroyers go into service without any anti-ship weapons!
    They can overwhelm any other fleet with their aviation or submarine fleet. And the universal launchers are in place: it will not take long to put anti-ship missiles in them. RCC old? And against whom to strain? Now China will build a fleet, they will see what happened and make a missile against this particular fleet. Where should they be in a hurry? They are going to attack China, not China, they decide when the war will start.
  19. +9
    13 November 2021 16: 17
    Let's say everything in the article is true. Why, then, the newest Chinese destroyer turns out to be similar in every way to the "Arleigh Burke" with mediocre anti-ship missiles, and not Soviet ships, with their wonderful anti-ship missiles?
    1. +3
      13 November 2021 17: 50
      the biggest threat to the ship (by the way, the air defense) comes from the aircraft. the probability that two destroyers will converge up to a radius of 40 km when they find each other is extremely small (amerikos have 80 berks for the entire world ocean?) before that they will be found from the air. then interception of another ship by a destroyer is also a very hypothetical idea. what is the speed of the ship and what is the plane?
  20. +3
    13 November 2021 17: 38
    Well, in order to be so happy for our Onyxes and Calibers, you must first rivet at least a dozen on each ship of a potential enemy, taking into account inflatable boats ...
  21. +3
    13 November 2021 19: 10
    Uh-huh, all the stupid experts with VO are smart))) Maybe you should still ask yourself why they do not deploy these missiles, although they are there and there are no problems to place them? The answer lies on the surface - their tactics (unlike our generals, who yourself know what they are preparing for) most likely in 99 cases out of 100 does not imply the destruction of the enemy's ships with the help of the NK anti-ship missiles. Everything))) And here such a novel is painted))) about past achievements and wars))) everything as our generals like.
    1. +2
      13 November 2021 21: 33
      The United States abandoned supersonic, hypersonic anti-ship missiles because such anti-ship missiles have a high start and a high flight profile thereby unmasking the carrier ship. An advanced enemy will be able to calculate the launch point and strike back.
      Therefore, the US Navy remains with subsonic, subsonic Harpoons have a low start, a low flight profile and a low IR launch signature, so that the US destroyer remains unnoticed behind the curvature of the earth.
      Of course, supersonic Onyx and Brahmos can have a low flight profile, but their range is reduced by several times to approximately ~ 120 km. Now imagine that a Tomahawk with such dimensions will fly 1800 km along such a profile.
      The EOS systems of the F35 aircraft can detect the torch of the launching rocket for 1400 km and calculate the launch point. Hello Onyx and Zircon. Therefore, Calibers remain a more effective option for the Russian Navy.
      1. 0
        15 November 2021 07: 36
        Quote: Turbo3000
        Now imagine that a Tomahawk with such dimensions will fly 1800 km along such a profile.

        Will it fly in 2 hours?
  22. 0
    13 November 2021 22: 26
    Not quite the topic. I already wrote somewhere. Almost everyone who worked on the guidance heads of sea-launched missiles. From the late 80s to the mid 90s, strangely died. Disasters, accidents and more. Over the past 20 years, 70 defense-related people have also strangely died. This was a Zen topic. Here's what I think should be of concern to us.
    1. -1
      14 November 2021 18: 11
      Not quite the topic. I already wrote somewhere. Almost everyone who worked on the guidance heads of sea-launched missiles. From the late 80s to the mid 90s, strangely died. Disasters, accidents and more. Over the past 20 years, 70 defense-related people have also strangely died.

      What's so strange about that? It is enough to look at the Iranian nuclear program - there scientists are dying like flies, and we all know who does it.
      So here, beforehand, they cleaned up specialists in areas of development that are dangerous for them.
      And then they put noodles on our ears, through propaganda - they say the Russians' hands grow from the wrong place.
  23. +4
    13 November 2021 22: 43
    Some kind of gon ... Hundreds of Tomahawks from American ships have not gone anywhere. Yes, anti-ship functions were removed from them, due to the absence of an enemy. However, nothing prevents you from bringing them back. Anti-aircraft missiles are enough against our corvettes and, moreover, missile boats.

    The problem for the Americans arose only today, with the appearance of a large Chinese fleet, and they are solving it both with new missiles and the return of the anti-ship missile function to the Tomahawk.
    1. +4
      13 November 2021 23: 45
      Some kind of gon ...

      Why "some". Pure turbopatriotic.
    2. +3
      14 November 2021 04: 22
      ... Yes, anti-ship functions were removed from them, due to the absence of an enemy. However, nothing prevents you from bringing them back.

      They've already been brought back to a new level
      The latest version of the Tomahawk is capable of hitting moving targets, including at sea, that is, it has become universal
    3. +1
      14 November 2021 09: 58
      However, nothing prevents you from bringing them back. Anti-aircraft missiles are enough against our corvettes and especially missile boats.


      Gon gon, but with Tomahawks it's not even nearly as easy as you wrote here
      1. 0
        14 November 2021 18: 13
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        but with Tomahawks it's not even close to as easy as you wrote here

        It is clear that not only "click the toggle switch". However, new guidance systems and even completely anti-ship missile versions of Tomahawks (new ones already, with flexible AI and advanced algorithms for autonomous target search) appeared already at least 10 years ago. What is currently loaded in Arlie Burke's cells, only the Americans know. And each has 96 cells.
    4. -4
      14 November 2021 18: 13
      Some kind of gon.

      This is the so-called cognitive dissonance.)))
      When a person with an opinion inspired by propaganda is given facts that he cannot refute, but he still drives these facts away from the brain)))
      1. 0
        14 November 2021 18: 15
        Are you talking about yourself, my friend? wink
        1. -3
          14 November 2021 18: 27
          Are you talking about yourself, my friend?

          Interestingly, what brand of rose-colored glasses do you have? CNN, BBC? )))
          Or how is it here
          1. 0
            14 November 2021 18: 33
            On your bot farm, they give out some kind of monotonous food. Demand new flavors! Otherwise, you start to look dystrophic and not convincing enough .. wassat
  24. 0
    14 November 2021 00: 00
    Quote: Santa Fe
    And what are the ships going to fight with? They can shoot at the enemy if there is no Hornet nearby


    Nothing. According to their concepts, basic and carrier-based aviation solves all problems
    fleet or most of them. And the fleet basically only protects the carrier of this aircraft.
    1. +2
      14 November 2021 04: 27
      Well, where are the Hornets over the Black Sea

      When there are entire groups of NATO destroyers
      1. 0
        14 November 2021 09: 16
        According to Article 18 of the Montreux Convention, the total tonnage of warships of non-Black Sea states in the Black Sea is limited to 30 tons, and they cannot stay there for more than 000 days. The aircraft carrier is not suitable for tonnage. In practice, US / British destroyers usually enter the Black Sea one at a time (NATO Black Sea members do not have destroyers), this is purely a flag demonstration / provocations / visits.
        In general, NATO does not have destroyers on a permanent basis in the Baltic and the Black Sea, mainly only anti-submarine and patrol forces. Because any point there is available to the Air Force.
  25. -1
    14 November 2021 00: 40
    G-d, when will they stop replicating the uryamith that supersonic flying poles are necessarily better than subtle, subsonic, maneuverable missile carriers, ample warheads to disable corvettes, frigates and even destroyers?
    1. +1
      14 November 2021 04: 26
      di, when they have already ceased to replicate the uryamif that supersonic flying poles are necessarily better than subtle, subsonic, maneuverable

      No one argues with this, it is clear to everyone that subtle is better

      there are no such subsonic missiles, that is the question
      why did they stop installing anti-ship missiles on ships in the west?
      1. 0
        14 November 2021 11: 18
        There are no such subsonic missiles only in Murzilka magazines.

        In the West, at one time they committed a series of political mistakes in terms of the military future of the world with the collapse of the USSR. Even Madeleine Albright admitted this openly. Now there is a process of correction and replenishment. The SM-6 becomes the supersonic auxiliary solution for large ships, the main one, either Ax block 5b, or an updated version of Harpoon is returning. Small class ships are equipped with NSM. Well, no one canceled LRASM, just because of its cost, aviation is saturated in the first place and not as quickly as they wanted.
  26. +3
    14 November 2021 08: 05
    Everything is clear and lucid, from the position of the United States. The actual operating range of anti-ship missiles is 100 kilometers, well, a maximum of 300. The US fleet is built around an aircraft carrier. There is an aircraft carrier with planes that solve the problem of destroying enemy ships, and all other ships only play the role of protecting the main one, while the fleet should not approach enemy ships within the range of anti-ship missiles. The only real threat to the AUG is not ships, but aircraft, so most of the cover ships are air defense ships.
    There is a minus in all this: AUG does not have the strength to fight the enemy on the shore, if it has strong aviation, air defense and coastal anti-ship missiles, and there are only two such countries, and if there is a nuclear war with both, that is, from the surface fleet little will depend.
    The Americans are doing quite right to themselves from the standpoint of modern conditions.
  27. +4
    14 November 2021 09: 50
    The question arises - what will be the actions of NATO ships when they meet a surface enemy? Defender vs. Gorshkov. Too unrealistic? Imagine any situation where it becomes necessary to shoot a ship.


    The western ship receives data from various types of reconnaissance and fires at the Gorshkov with the same Harpoons.

    A full eight-rocket salvo cannot be recaptured by ours.

    Here the question is in intelligence - who will be the first to find the target, and not in missiles.
    And if there is no anti-ship missile on board at all, then you can evade the attack, and direct the submarine or aviation at the enemy.

    In the West, ships are not actually being built for a battle with ships for a long time.
    1. +3
      14 November 2021 11: 27
      and shoots at the "Gorshkov" with the same "Harpoons".

      No Harpoons

      Removed from all new destroyers
      1. +1
        14 November 2021 15: 01
        The old ones are.
        The frigates will have NSM
        There will be NSMs on LCS
        In the world, not only the United States and other countries have a lot of rockets.

        Etc.

        A separate ship may not really have anything for over-the-horizon shooting. But he will not be alone anyway. In war, at least.
    2. -2
      14 November 2021 16: 57
      Those ships who have Kortik Pantsir and Calm in light will beat off even 16 missiles - the speed of these new missiles of the day before yesterday can be subsonic even from naval guns.
      1. +3
        14 November 2021 18: 50
        It's just in your head like this
    3. 0
      14 November 2021 18: 27
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      The western ship receives data from various types of reconnaissance and fires at the Gorshkov with the same Harpoons.

      What Harpoons? What are you talking about? The harpoon is an ultralight anti-ship missile designed for suspension on airplanes and helicopters. The Americans initially had heavy anti-ship missiles for dealing with large ships and a version of the Tomahawk anti-ship missile, which is also not weak in mass and strike capabilities.
      1. 0
        14 November 2021 18: 51
        They have been gone for a long time
        1. 0
          14 November 2021 19: 20
          There is a feeling that you live in the 80s or in the 90s .. They are already there again. Tomahawks at least.
          1. +1
            14 November 2021 19: 54
            Well, how long has Block 5A been in service already? Otherwise, we can say that the LRASM from the Mk. 41 shoots - the idea was that
  28. 0
    14 November 2021 23: 17
    To use anti-ship missiles against us in a serious military conflict, the enemy should take into account the lack of communications and other electronic gadgets up to the satellite ... and this already resets the initial data in the account of the capabilities of the parties.
  29. 0
    16 November 2021 14: 46
    Quote: bk316
    already senile changes are in full bloom

    I don't correspond with boors. However, you seem to talk to everyone like that. You have nothing to do in a decent society. To ignore.

    Yes, it is useless to talk to you, you, like many, cannot admit that you are right in any way for fear of losing face, just like the Japanese, only this leads to the opposite. If I am wrong about the heat energy account, please - you are a physicist. or not? I have never given up understanding and admitting a delusion or wrong, but no, heat means heat))) even if it is the most heat, it has nothing to do with the formation of a shock wave in principle) and what then does it endure? Or is it no longer a shock wave? Do gentlemen take their word in a decent society? just something does not want to be such a society of storytellers. Good luck.
  30. 0
    19 November 2021 20: 20
    With regards to the Falklands ... the Argentines simply rolled the bombs off the loading ramp with their hands and they hit !!! And the PKR was only 6, and then three did not explode ... the quality of KHROWUZ ...
  31. 0
    13 December 2021 23: 00
    On the one hand, anti-ship missiles are needed, but target designators are needed beyond the radar horizon, but what if they are not there? So, the enemy did not give the opportunity to deploy such aircraft, and what next? The second question is, if the enemy is within the radar horizon, it seems cheaper to use artillery. Moreover, if naval artillery switches to 152 mm caliber, then special ammunition can already be used.