Elegant "Mannlicher"

Mannlicher in hand. Shot from the movie "The Fall of the Empire"

On the table lay a belt with a harness
and a holster with an excellent twelve-shot "Mannlicher".
Pavka was breathtaking. For a few seconds there was a struggle in it,
but, overwhelmed by desperate audacity, he bent over, grabbed the holster
and, pulling out of it a new blued revolver, he jumped into the garden.
"How the Steel Was Tempered", N. Ostrovsky

History firearms weapons. In a commentary to the article about the Mannlicher pistol of 1894, one of the VO readers joked that it would not be possible to write about the twelve-shot "Mannlicher" due to its absence. And the truth is, this really did not happen. However, the Mannlicher pistol, which was in service with the Austrian army, really existed.

And today our story will go about him ...

Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher (1848-1904). This photo is much better than in the previous article ...

The Mannlicher M1901 self-loading semi-automatic pistol was one of the earliest designs of a self-loading pistol and, moreover, this pistol was one of the simplest semi-automatic pistols ever created.

And outwardly he looked very much like a revolver. But only similar. And it didn't look as clumsy as many of the first self-loading pistols. Take, for example, the same pistol by Karel Krnka from 1895. The caliber is the same - 8 mm, the magazine is also for 10 rounds. And outwardly with the Mannlicher pistol, they are similar, but ... only similar.

Pistol of Karel Krnka, 1895. Army Museum, Copenhagen

According to Steyr's factory records, this pistol was patented in 1898 and was originally called the Model 1900. The cartridge used in the pistol was also the designer's own development and differed from the 7,63 mm Mauser cartridge, since it would be too powerful for a system with a free shutter. It was a specially designed 7,63x21mm cartridge. The Mannlicher cartridge case was not cylindrical, but had a slight taper to facilitate extraction.

Pistol Ferdinand Mannlicher 1901/1905: simply no comparison with the previous model. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Interestingly, the cartridge for this pistol was produced in Europe until the beginning of World War II.

The bullet weight was 5,5 g, the shell could be steel or copper-nickel alloy. The powder charge could differ depending on the type of powder used, but the usual European standard was about 3,5 grains (227 mg) of standard DWM powder, which allowed this bullet to develop an initial velocity of 326 m / s.

Despite the fact that it was a cartridge of sufficiently high power, the design of the pistol turned out to be so strong that for many years it could be used without any breakdowns.

Diagram of the pistol device from the English patent No. 27, 612 from 1898.

The store was located in the handle and loaded from the clip through the open bolt. Due to the extremely simple operation of the mechanism, this pistol had a minimum size of the handle, by the way, again, very similar to a revolver.

Disassembly diagram of the pistol. It is clearly seen that it can be disassembled into only four parts, not counting the cartridge clips, which is, of course, very convenient for its owner. Fig. from Walter HB Smith "Mannlicher Rifles and Pistols", Military Service Publishing Company, Harrisburg, PA, 1947

The pistol mechanics were very simple. Two protrusions on the receiver and, accordingly, two grooves under them on the bolt, which allowed it to move back and forth in relation to the barrel. The barrel was screwed into the receiver, that is, it was connected into one piece. From above, the edge of the front sight passed along it, which was included in the forging of the barrel. There was a spring under the barrel that pressed the bolt to the chamber. Behind the shutter is the trigger. Inside the bolt there was a firing pin that transmitted the hammer blow to the cartridge primer and ... that's it!

The first army to arm itself with the Mannlicher M1901 automatic pistols was the Argentine army, which adopted this pistol in 1905 along with the 7,63mm Mannlicher Automatic 7,63x52mm cartridge. They originally purchased 1 pistols, as well as over a million rounds of ammunition, holsters and accessories. They subsequently purchased 020 more pistols and three million rounds of ammunition, as well as holsters and accessories. The Argentine military continued to order these beautiful pistols, and a total of about 5 of them were purchased. Here he is - Mannlicher of the Argentinean model 000/10. Note the fluted key below the Argentinean emblem. It was necessary to press on it in order to discharge the magazine of a loaded pistol with the shutter open. The spring threw out cartridges with sufficient force, which the shooter obviously should not have forgotten about! Royal Arsenal, Leeds

The coil return spring was located horizontally, directly under the barrel between two parallel receiver guides and also two slats on the bolt. The lock was located on the left side of the frame and was covered with a removable cover of a very unusual shape, which also covered the return spring under the barrel and the pistol mechanism on the left side. The cover on the frame is held by a spring latch in front of the trigger guard.

The trigger on the left side of the frame is connected to the trigger bar, which, when pressed, moves backward, pressing on the tail of the sear connected to a V-shaped spring, which simultaneously served as both the trigger spring and the sear spring. The whisper nose fits into the recess in the trigger fork (the trigger itself is outside), this made it possible to provide a smooth pull on the trigger, which was very unusual for the then automatic pistols.

Holster 1901 Front view. Rockyland Arsenal Photos

Holster 1901 Rear view. Rockyland Arsenal Photos

A heavy V-shaped combat spring (which is clearly visible on the pistol disassembly diagram) is installed on the frame under the right side of the side cover body. Its larger lever (lower) fits into a slot in the right trigger fork to push it forward when released with the sear. Its smaller lever (upper) presses on a cam that enters a slot on the bottom surface of the bolt when it closes.

Pack of Mannlicher's cartridges 7,65x21 mm

To load the pistol, the bolt is taken by the serrated protrusions on the sides and pulled back. The magazine pusher rises to hold the bolt in the open position, and the return spring under the barrel is compressed at the same time. Now it was necessary to insert the clip into the grooves on the bolt and, like with a regular rifle, press the cartridges inward with your finger.

Pistol М1903. Page from the monograph: Mötz, Josef & Schuy, Joschi "Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole - Repetier- und Selbstladepistolen in Österreich-Ungarn 1884 bis 1918". Mag. Mötz, 2007. ISBN 3950234209

Because of this spring-loaded cam, the bolt does not close after all the cartridges have been fired. However, with a slight pull back, it moves along the cam, after which the return spring closes the shutter. This pistol had such a simple and interesting design. Interestingly, the 1901 model was the world's first automatic pistol with an open breech cover. Moreover, it is believed that his shutter was semi-free, since its rollback was slowed down not only by a return spring, but also by a spring-loaded cam, which rested against it from below.

The same pistol with an attached butt holster. P. Mötz, Josef & Schuy, Joschi "Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole - Repetier- und Selbstladepistolen in Österreich-Ungarn 1884 bis 1918". Mag. Mötz, 2007. ISBN 3950234209

Many call this pistol "the most elegant pistol" of the early twentieth century.

One can disagree with this statement, but it should be noted that it really looks very impressive.

Mannlicher's carbine based on the M1903 pistol

But the success in the countries of South America did not satisfy the designer. At home, they did not accept it, although they bought it.

Then he developed the M1896 / 1897 pistol, which outwardly resembles the K96 Mauser. The pistol became known under the designation М1901 / 1903.

It had a fixed six-round magazine in front of the trigger, but then began to use a removable six-round magazine located in the same place. The design of the pistol was original, but weak for its powerful cartridge.

On the basis of the pistol, by the way, which, like the Mauser, had a butt holster, a carbine was developed, produced in an amount of about 1 copies, but not widely used - it was also not in demand.

Buyers were scared off, in particular, by the curved cocking lever on the right, which made it inconvenient to use it. Interestingly, this carbine used, in fact, an intermediate type cartridge - 7,63x32 mm, made on the basis of an elongated sleeve from the 7,63-mm Borchard-Mauser cartridge.

However, the death of Mannlicher in 1904 made it impossible to continue work in this direction.

Mannlicher carbine М1897 / 1901. Barrel length - 300 mm. The total length is 735 mm. Photo: icollector.com

TTX pistol Mannlicher M1900:

Barrel length - 140/160 mm
Overall length - 225/246 mm
Total weight - 0,91
Magazine capacity - 8 rounds
Used cartridge - 7,63x21 mm Mannlicher.

TTX pistol Mannlicher M1905:

Barrel length - 139 mm
Overall length - 243 mm
Total weight - 0,92 kg
Magazine capacity - 10 rounds
The cartridge used is 7,63x21 mm Mannlicher.

PS

Those who want to get a complete picture of pistols and submachine guns of Austria-Hungary can refer to a truly remarkable monograph: Mötz, Josef & Schuy, Joschi "Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole - Repetier- und Selbstladepistolen in Österreich-Ungarn 1884 bis 1918". Mag. Mötz, 2007. ISBN 3950234209

This is what this book looks like ...

However, it should be borne in mind that it consists of three volumes, with a total value of EUR486,5:

Osterreichische Pistolen. 3 Bande
(1. Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole. Repetier- und Selbstladepistolen in Österreich-Ungarn 1884 bis 1918.
2. Die Weiterentwicklung der Selbstladepistole I: Selbstladepistolen in Österreich-Ungarn bzw. Österreich von 1914 bis heute.
3. Die Weiterentwicklung der Selbstladepistole II: Maschinenpistolen, Pistolentaschen, Ergänzungen zu Band 1 and 2).

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Comments

[Andrey Moskvin]

Well, as a child, I kept thinking what kind of drumming a twelve-shot revolver has.

[kalibr]

There were such. For example, Lefoshe hairpin revolvers. And the drums were really ...

[Nikolaevich I]

Duc, there were all sorts of "drummers"! And "round" (cylindrical), and disc, and "flat" and "chain" ...!
Or "false" ... How do you like this gan?

Or such ...

[grak33]

about the Mannlicher pistol of 1894

Mannlicher made excellent rifles and very mediocre pistols.
But Steyr made wonderful pistols in Austria-Hungary.
These were truly masterpieces for their time, especially the Steyr M1912. It is even difficult to remember an equal to him. Perhaps the American Colts.

Interestingly, this carbine used, in fact, an intermediate type cartridge - 7,63x32 mm,

And the American cartridge .30 Carbine (7,62 × 33 mm), is it also "in fact, an intermediate type cartridge" or is it some other class?
What is the capacity of the intermediate cartridges? Minimum maximum?

[Catfish]

Did they mean this handsome man?

[kalibr]

I saw him in the movie "Outpost in the Mountains"!

[Catfish]

Favorite film since childhood, but it seemed to me that in all the "roles" there was Colt 19-11.

But in "Solaris" he was for sure.

[kalibr]

But when this fat man in a jeep hat shoots at the rider! Says the driver - give me yours. And shoots a rider in a turban ...

[Catfish]

I remember this episode, this is when Izmail-bek was spanked, I was looking for it on purpose - I could not find it. But, as far as I know from my acquaintance with the Mosfilm gunsmiths, they did not carry different weapons to the shooting, the same barrel was passed from hand to hand, and there, of course, the devil only knows.

[kalibr]

There, in the film, the gun can be seen when the fat man bends over the dead man and says: "Ready." It is not visible for long, but good ..

[Catfish]

I answered myself, I am sleeping completely.

[Catfish]

I didn't find this photo, although I remember the scene well. As a boy, I asked my father why an American was sticking a pistol in his lips, and my father replied: "The barrel is hot, it will react alive." It seems like a trifle, but I remember it.

[Catfish]

And the American cartridge .30 Carbine (7,62 × 33 mm), it is also "in fact, an intermediate type cartridge"

The Americans do not consider it as such, ours, too, although in some literature it is called "intermediate".

[grak33]

Quote: Sea Cat

although in some literature it is called "intermediate".

But what about the power?
Intermediate cartridge capacity 1000-2000 ft-lb (1356-2712 J).
And the power of the .30 Carbine on the M1 barrel was 1314 J.
And Mannlicher's 7,63x32 mm cartridge probably had even less.
What to do?

[Catfish]

This is no longer for me, ask Vic Nick when he appears on the branch, and I don't want to take anyone's time.

[grak33]

By the way, during the war there was a project to make a cartridge from a TT bullet and a revolver sleeve. Putting a bullet in the sleeve without sinking it.
The result would be a 7,62x38 mm cartridge.
And then they planned to adapt this cartridge for firing from the American M2 Carbine. Replacing this weapon with the PPSh.
But somehow something did not go well with this project. I don't know the details.

[Catfish]

I don’t know the details.

It's a pity, an interesting story.

[hohol95]

Is it possible that another "reincarnation" of Mr. "Cor ..."

[Catfish]

Whom do you mean, Alexey?

[hohol95]

Someone who loved cartridges and the American M1 Carbine ...

[Catfish]

Ah ... No, I meant another person and he is by no means a searchlight.

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

American М1Carbine ...

As for me, personally, I think the M1 Carbine is a misunderstanding. And I just can't understand how they even got into the American army.
Something else similar to the M2 Carbine in the Red Army could be explained.
But М1Carbine (and М2 Carbine too) in the American one, no way.

[hohol95]

In the American army, they were the same (for us incomprehensible) "actors" as the M1897 and M1912 trench shotguns with bayonets from the M1917 rifle.
But this is America and its army - what they wished to do and armed themselves with!

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

In the american army

It was originally about the M1 Carbine.

[hohol95]

They chose a weapon model that fits between the Garand and the TomiiGan, as well as other trench shotguns.
For the same reason, they also adopted shotguns. For strong fire impact at short distances.
So Carbane - less power compared to "Garand", but lighter and more ammo per person. But longer range than submachine guns!
And the Americans could afford such a set of small arms in their armed forces.
Moreover, their easel and light "machine guns" were "not the first freshness" to the Second World War! However, like many countries that fought during the Second World War.

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

They chose a weapon model that fits between the Garand and the TomiiGan.

TommyGun was much more efficient than the M1 Carbine. Coming from either side.
Therefore, the M1 Carbine in the American army did not sew a mare's tail.

Quote: hohol95

For strong fire impact at short distances.

TommyGun was more efficient than the M1 Carbine at any distance.

Quote: hohol95

But longer range than submachine guns!

Than CONVENTIONAL submachine guns. And you can't argue with that.
But TommyGun was not a regular submachine gun. It was a shooting masterpiece (like the Colt pistol). Only the armor could kill. But that was already in the second half of the 20th century.

Quote: hohol95

And the Americans could afford such a set of small arms in their armed forces.

They could have something, but it was insanity.
Absolutely wrong and illogical decision.
Or do you not allow the Americans to make mistakes?

Quote: hohol95

Moreover, their easel and light "machine guns" were "not the first freshness" to the Second World War! However, like many countries that fought during the Second World War.

And what were the "first freshness"?
Marasmic German MG34 / 42?
And nothing that after the war no country in the world used such machine guns anymore? Even Germany.

[saygon66]

Brahnya-i-i ... MG 42 was used after the war in more than 10 countries, in some it is used and is still being produced ... there is also a version chambered for 5.56 X 45, the so-called. Ameli by Cetme.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: saygon66

Brahnya-i-i ... MG 42 after the war was used in more than 10 countries,

Support.

[grak33]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Support.

To no avail.
See above.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: grak33

To no avail.
See above.

You continue to assert that MG-42 was not used anywhere, even in Germany !!, after WWII ?!

[grak33]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You continue to assert that MG-42 was not used anywhere, even in Germany !!, after WWII ?!

I continue to argue that after the war, the MG42 (and its analogues) was not produced anywhere, even in Germany.
To understand this, you need to clarify for yourself what this MG42 was.
I'm sure you and my other opponents just don't know this.
I repeat once again, the Germans had their own system of small arms. And in the world it is NOT used ANYWHERE ANYWHERE. One of the elements of this system was the MG34 / 42.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: grak33

To understand this, you need to clarify for yourself what this MG42 was.
I'm sure you and my other opponents just don't know this.

And what is it, is it really a vimana?

But no - a machine gun.

Maybe it's a vimana? Also no, also a machine gun, only MG3. And all the difference is in the cartridge.

Due to its high manufacturability and combat qualities, this machine gun was widely exported, both under its "army" designation, and under the commercial index of the Rheinmetall company - MG 42/59. It is in service with the Bundeswehr and is widely exported to various countries. Also manufactured under license in Austria, Greece, Iran, Pakistan, Mexico, Sudan, Spain and Turkey

[grak33]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

But no - a machine gun.

Machine guns (normal caliber) are of 4 classes. And these are all DIFFERENT machine guns.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Also no, also a machine gun, only MG3. And all the difference is in the cartridge.

Actually, a cartridge in small arms is the most important thing.
It is the cartridge that determines the class of the weapon. And not at all the constructive of the weapon (most often). The design of the weapon intervenes only when it is sharply unsuccessful and from this quality of the cartridge deteriorates sharply.
MG3 is a GPMG class weapon and MG42 is an MMG class weapon.
Classmate MG3, this is a PC. A classmate of MG42, this is SGM. In this case, the bipod / machine tool does not affect the weapon class.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: grak33

Actually, the cartridge in small arms is the most important thing.
It is the cartridge that determines the class of the weapon.

Well, 7,62 * 51 is in fact a rifle cartridge, like 7,92 * 57 and 7,62 * 54, so all your arguments are made insignificant by this fact.

Quote: grak33

Classmate MG3, this is a PC. A classmate of MG42, this is SGM.

Hand face, you just talked about the great role of the patron and then bang! You took machine guns chambered for one cartridge into different classes. Why would you? After all:

Quote: grak33

In this case, the bipod / machine tool does not affect the weapon class.

Well, MG42, MG-3 and PK are single machine guns and can be used as hand guns and use a rifle cartridge, but SGM could not be used as a manual one. And I was mistaken in that I supported the words: "Bree-ehnya" and in fact your words are nonsense!

[grak33]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, 7,62 * 51 is in fact a rifle cartridge, like 7,92 * 57 and 7,62 * 54, so all your arguments are made insignificant by this fact.

Why do you argue about topics that you don't understand?
Rifle cartridges are of two types, NORMAL (with a light bullet) and "SUBMITTED" (with a heavy bullet).
Machine guns of the MMG class (in the USSR, heavy machine guns) use rifle cartridges with a heavy bullet.
Machine guns of the GPMG class (in the USSR, uniform machine guns) use rifle cartridges with a light bullet.
These are quite different machine guns, since the energy of such cartridges is very different.
See above for what MG3 and MG42 are.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You took machine guns chambered for one cartridge into different classes. Why would you?

See above.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, MG42, MG-3 and PC are the same machine guns.

Nope.
The MG42 is a heavy machine gun (MMG) that was used for bipod firing.
The Germans simply didn't have a light bullet (normal) rifle cartridge.
It was not in living nature. Not found.
And this was the main distinguishing feature of their shooters (until 1942). With all the ensuing consequences.
Then they also adopted the full-time cartridge 7,92 × 33 mm (and the weapon on it). But that is another story.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and the SGM could not be used as a manual one.

So what?
The fact that SGM did not have bipods, while MG42 had them, does not change anything. They are absolute classmates.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And I was mistaken in that I supported the words: "Bree-ehnya" and in fact your words are nonsense!

It's not up to you to judge that.
It would be nice for you to learn the basics of shooting. To start.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: grak33

It's not up to you to judge that.
It would be nice for you to learn the basics of shooting. To start.

What you learned about a light and heavy bullet, which does not make you an expert, does not even show more or less decent knowledge in this matter.

Quote: grak33

Why do you argue about topics that you don't understand?

I have such a drawback, to prove something obvious to the enthusiastic laymen.

Quote: grak33

Rifle cartridges are of two types, NORMAL (with a light bullet) and "SUBMITTED" (with a heavy bullet).

What BIG letters, what pathos. So, in Russia, heavy bullet cartridges were adopted in 1891 not as machine-gun cartridges. And in the USSR, a cartridge with a heavy bullet was discontinued in 1953, not to mention the fact that it was not particularly needed in the Second World War.

From the first days of the Great Patriotic War, it became obvious that firing from heavy machine guns at long ranges, and even more so from closed positions, practically not used anywhere... At the same time, rifle cartridges with a heavy bullet "D" were produced throughout the Great Patriotic War, they were used for solutions for ordinary fire missions along with cartridges with a light bullet "L".

So in Russia there is no "heavy machine gun cartridge", and in the whole world too.

Quote: grak33

MMG class machine guns .. ... GPMG class machine guns.

The fact that you can use foreign letters is good. So master this too:
A GPMG will typically feature a quick-change barrel design calibered for various fully powered cartridges such as the 7.62 × 51mm NATO, 7.62 × 54mmR, 7.5 × 54mm French, 7.5 × 55mm Swiss and 7.92 × 57mm Mauser, [2]
or is it
The term "medium machine gun" is used to refer to the ubiquitous full-power rifle-caliber machine gun designs, which are alternatively called general-purpose machine guns or universal machine guns.

Quote: grak33

These are quite different machine guns, since the energy of such cartridges is very different.

You would have learned some basic things, or something. Because with the same weight of gunpowder, and it is the same regardless of the bullet, the muzzle energy will be equal, there is no external ballistics, see Caliber .30 , but the energy of the cartridge is yes!

Quote: grak33

The Germans simply didn't have a light bullet (normal) rifle cartridge.
It was not in living nature. Not found.

The Germans initially had a successful and modern bullet, and they did not begin to fence the garden with a blunt and sharp-nosed shape.
But if you insist then Lehký kulomet vz. 26, ZB-26, ZB-30 is possible, because the cartridge is heavy, "machine-gun", can be considered medium machine guns or even easel, as well as DP-27, you also know "heavy cartridges" could shoot.

Quote: grak33

The fact that SGM did not have bipods, while MG42 had them, does not change anything. They are absolute classmates.

And still nothing changes the presence of the shoulder rest, the magazine-boxes of reduced capacity, and the fact that the machines for the MG-42 were produced much less than the machine guns themselves with "bipods". Well, the nonsense about "absolute classmates" is aggravated by the presence of Bz-26-30 under 7,92 * 57.

Quote: grak33

It's not up to you to judge that.
It would be nice for you to learn the basics of shooting. To start.

Yes, yes, your discovery of a light and heavy bullet, a bullet and not a cartridge, you are our dear connoisseur, undoubtedly shows your academic knowledge.

[grak33]

What you learned about a light and heavy bullet that does not make you a connoisseur

But you didn't know about it. Now you know.
What should I say to my uncle for this?

So, in Russia, heavy bullet cartridges were adopted in 1891 not as machine-gun cartridges.

Learn Russian language. And then one fine day you will still be able to understand what was written to you in Russian.
And in the USSR, a cartridge with a heavy bullet was discontinued in 1953, not to mention the fact that it was not particularly needed in the Second World War.
What nonsense!
Minutes of a technical meeting of the officers of the 2st and 7,62nd divisions on the issue of removing from service XNUMX-mm rifle cartridges with a heavy bullet.
Solution
1. Along with a cartridge with a light bullet, leave in service with the Red Army a cartridge with a heavy bullet for firing heavy machine guns at long distances, since a heavy bullet is more powerful and has better ballistics than a light one.
2. In the case of a transition to a single cartridge of reduced power for machine guns, carbines and light machine guns, it is advisable to remove the cartridge with a light bullet from the armament of the Red Army, and leave the cartridge with a heavy bullet as the most advanced and powerful cartridge for heavy machine guns and a sniper rifle.
Ferstein? Nobody removed the cartridge with a heavy bullet from service.
And then, what does the USSR have to do with it?
The Wehrmacht was the armed forces of Germany. And it was about the Wehrmacht.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So in Russia there is no "heavy machine gun cartridge", and in the whole world too.

And once again, learn Russian. It will come in handy.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So you can master this too

Why should I read all sorts of nonsense in a foreign language?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Because with the same weight of gunpowder, and it is the same regardless of the bullet, the muzzle energy will be equal, no external ballistics, see Caliber .30 wink, but the energy of the cartridge is yes!

This is generally some kind of untranslatable pun in some local dialect.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The Germans initially had a successful and modern bullet, and they did not begin to fence the garden with a blunt and sharp-nosed shape.

And learn Russian again.
Maybe it's not the language?
Maybe there is something wrong with the conceptual apparatus?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

DP-27, you also know with "heavy cartridges" could shoot.

"Could shoot" and "was intended for shooting" are different concepts in Russian.
About this in the CRC for PD / PDM in Chapter VI, page 62, section 1, point (b), it is written in black and white.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Bz-26-30 under 7,92 * 57.

You tell the grandmothers about the entrance.
The lightest bullet 7,92x57 mm (tracer, not armor-piercing) weighed 11,5 g. And the main bullet weighed 12,8 g. In this case, the bullet D (heavy) from the three-line weighs 11,65 g.
Teach materiel, kid. And don't argue with grown-up uncles.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yes, yes, you open a light and heavy bullet,

In a sense, it was really me who discovered them.
At least for you.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: graк33

But you didn't know about it. Now you know.
What should I say to my uncle for this?

Uncle you are a fool, that's enough. I didn't know about bullets, it's funny.

Quote: graк33

So, in Russia, heavy bullet cartridges were adopted in 1891 not as machine-gun cartridges.
Learn Russian language. And then one fine day you will still be able to understand what was written to you in Russian.

If a fool like you writes nonsense even in good Russian, that does not make nonsense something smart.

Quote: graк33

And in the USSR, a cartridge with a heavy bullet was discontinued in 1953, not to mention the fact that it was not particularly needed in the Second World War.
What nonsense!

Come on, and what does the nonsense bring as a counterargument?

Quote: graк33

remove the cartridge with a light bullet from the armament of the Red Army, and leave the cartridge with a heavy bullet as the most advanced and powerful cartridge for heavy machine guns and a sniper rifle.

And the confusion leads the decision of a certain commission no later than 1946, although the confusion was ashamed to set the date. So what is the date under the document?

Quote: graк33

And then, what does the USSR have to do with it?

Hello, sick:

Quote: grak33

Classmate MG3, this is a PC. A classmate of MG42, this is SGM.

Quote: grak33

Machine guns of the MMG class (in the USSR, heavy machine guns) use rifle cartridges with a heavy bullet.

Quote: grak33

The fact that SGM did not have bipods, while MG42 had them, does not change anything. They are absolute classmates.

How nice it is to be clever remembering the machine guns of the USSR, and as soon as it became clear that this is not cleverness, but stupidity, so immediately "and what has the USSR to do with it", this is called "jumping off the topic." Don't jump off the topic, it's gone.

Quote: graк33

Why should I read all sorts of nonsense in a foreign language?

That is, a certain grak33 does not hesitate to write all such a specialist in foreign letters:
quote = grak33] is a GPMG class weapon, and MG42 is an MMG class weapon.
And as soon as you, graka33, poke your nose that

GPMG fully powered cartridges such as the 7.62 × 51mm NATO, 7.62 × 54mmR, 7.5 × 54mm French, 7.5 × 55mm Swiss and 7.92 × 57mm Mauser, [2]

uniform machine guns were intended, including for the 7,92 * 57 cartridge, which, as you know, does not have a light bullet.
And the fact that medium machine guns are otherwise called uniform.

The term "medium machine gun" is used to refer to the ubiquitous full-power rifle-caliber machine gun designs, which are alternatively called general-purpose machine guns or universal machine guns.

So you urgently forgot the foreign letters. You are cheap balabol.

Quote: graк33

Because with the same weight of gunpowder, and it is the same regardless of the bullet, the muzzle energy will be equal, no external ballistics, see Caliber .30 wink, but the energy of the cartridge is yes!
This is generally some kind of untranslatable pun in some local dialect.

And you still write something about the conceptual apparatus, but you do not understand the literary Russian language, let alone elementary physics.

Quote: graк33

The Germans initially had a successful and modern bullet, and they did not begin to fence the garden with a blunt and sharp-nosed shape.
And learn Russian again.
Maybe it's not the language?

Those. Are you so stupid that you didn't even master a not very complicated sentence and at the same time reproach me with a bad Russian? And I am worried about your knowledge of physics, and you are just a feeble-minded type.

Quote: graк33

"Could shoot" and "was intended for shooting" are different concepts in Russian.

This limitation was only in terms of supply and adjustments when aiming, there were no limitations in automation. DT and DA worked quietly with a heavy bullet. But you, as a "specialist", are clever about the Russian language.

Quote: graк33

Quote: Vladimir_2U
Bz-26-30 under 7,92 * 57.
You tell the grandmothers about the entrance.
The lightest bullet 7,92x57 mm (tracer, not armor-piercing) weighed 11,5 g. And the main bullet weighed 12,8 g. In this case, the bullet D (heavy) from the three-line weighs 11,65 g.

In response to the fact that 7,92 * 57 was used in light machine guns, you rush to compare the German and Russian bullets. You are frankly stupid and at odds with logic. Czech light machine guns used a German cartridge, which means, according to your curve, degenerative logic, the light machine gun should be considered an easel one.

Quote: grak33

Machine guns of the MMG class (in the USSR, heavy machine guns) use rifle cartridges with a heavy bullet.

In principle, this is enough to make a concept about your mind.

[Advertising spider]

Until now, they cannot really replace

[grak33]

Quote: Advertising Spider

Until now, they cannot really replace
Reply
Cit

Replaced immediately after the war.
See above.

[grak33]

Quote: saygon66

MG 42 after the war was used in more than 10 countries,

Do not throw it away.

Quote: saygon66

and is still being produced ...

But this is already nonsense.

Quote: saygon66

there is also a version chambered for 5.56 X 45, the so-called. Ameli by Cetme.

"Version chambered for 5.56 X 45" is not MG42.
MG42 goes under a STRICTLY DEFINED CARTRIDGE.
And MG42 (which under a strictly defined cartridge), it was not produced anywhere after the war.
Post-war MG1,3,5, this is never MG42. These are machine guns of DIFFERENT CLASSES.
Your statement about the MG42 and post-war designs is tantamount to saying that the PK, PKK, AKM and AK-74 are exactly the same thing.
The Germans generally had a bizarre shooter. There was something in it, but the Germans had no successors.

[saygon66]

During the reconstruction, they were allowed to shoot from MG42 made in Yugoslavia .... In any case, such a coat of arms was stamped on the receiver cover ... All the same, post-war production?

[grak33]

Quote: saygon66

During the reconstruction, they were allowed to shoot from MG42 made in Yugoslavia .... In any case, such a coat of arms was stamped on the receiver cover ... All the same, post-war production?

The Zastava M53 is not a new product, it is a clone of the MG42.
And I wrote about something else.
About new products that continued the MG34 / 42 concept. But there were no such people.

[Catfish]

Namesake , but do not waste your time on this idiot, there is no feed for any explanation, there is a complete stupor on the "Thompson" and this is not cured.

[grak33]

Quote: Sea Cat

yes, do not waste your time on this idiot,

And on whom to spend time, not an elderly ignoramus, like you?
Who, without getting off the couch, listened to all the nonsense of such ignoramuses on YouTube and from this decided that he knew something?
You know nothing.
But this is still true, nonsense.
Worst of all, you don't even want to know.
And you do not advise others to learn something.
Typical "Soviet man". A loser who knows nothing and does not want to know anything. Always whining about how everyone cunningly deceived him.

Quote: Sea Cat

The GRU was handed over an M2 that had flown in from Vietnam, shabby, but in a very decent condition. They shot at the All-Russian Forensic Science Research Institute. A luxurious weapon, comfortable, light and well-applied, when firing in bursts of 2-3 rounds, the barrel does not lead at all, in short, everyone liked the machine.

Exactly.
"Soviet people" (ignoramuses and profane in any matter) saw the American miracle.
And admired. It's American.
And the fact that this miracle had a disgusting slaughter and a number of other basic performance characteristics did not bother them. Yes, they had not heard anything about "slaughter" then.
That this "miracle" required an original cartridge, which worsened the logistics, too.
Probably they would have liked the slingshot even more. After all, it is even lighter and its "trunk" does not lead anywhere at all.
That is why the USSR collapsed. Because he had such "Soviet specialists" EVERYWHERE.
And wherever the “Soviet man” appeared, everything and everywhere ended in failure. Starting from Soviet socialism and ending with the release of toilet paper.

[Catfish]

Thank you, we made you happy, it’s nice to hear the opinion of Prof.Essinal. In addition, I am glad that Karbine's business is alive and well, and a holy place is never empty, one was sent to "rest", then another in his place.
I wish you continued success in your attempts to prove the unprovable.

[Baron pardus]

You are ignorant, you have no idea what you are talking about. M1 and M2 were NEVER conceived or manufactured as a weapon for front line soldiers. These are light carbines that shoot a cartridge more powerful (and destructive) than the 7.62x25. Having at the same time SIGNIFICANTLY lighter weight than the same PPS or, even more so, PPSh. This is NOT a weapon for a motorized rifleman or infantryman. These are the weapons of a radio operator, an artilleryman, a carrier, a cook, a mechanic, an airfield attendant. Something light that is not hard to carry with you while doing YOUR business (for example, throwing shells into the breech of a howitzer). You complain about the small lethality of the .30 Carbine cartridge, The energy of this cartridge is 1310 Joules, the most variants have 7.62x25 - 700 joules, And NOBODY has ever complained about the lethality of 7.62x25. For comparison, 7n6M has an energy of 1328 joules. That is, you generally have no idea either about the energy of cartridges, or about their lethality.

[Advertising spider]

Quote: grak33

TommyGun was not your ordinary submachine gun. It was a shooting masterpiece (like the Colt pistol). Only the armor could kill. But that was already in the second half of the 20th century.

TommyGun killed the M3A1 as a lighter, simpler and cheaper one at the end of the war.

[grak33]

Quote: Advertising Spider

TommyGan

TommyGan in the American army was killed only in the 60s by the M16A1.
And only then М16А2 killed both М16А1 and М14.

[would]

Marasmic German MG34 / 42?
And nothing that after the war no country in the world used such machine guns anymore? Even Germany.

Modifications of the MG-42 chambered for 7,62 × 51 and 5,56 × 45 mm NATO mm NATO (MG-3 and MG-4, respectively) are still in service in Germany and a number of other countries.

[grak33]

Quote: rait

Modifications of the MG-42 chambered for 7,62 × 51 and 5,56 × 45 mm NATO mm NATO (MG-3 and MG-4, respectively) are still in service in Germany and a number of other countries.

"Modifications of the MG-42 chambered for 7,62 × 51 and 5,56 × 45 mm NATO mm NATO (MG-3 and MG-4, respectively)" are MG42.
Which went under a strictly defined patron.
"Modifications of MG-42 chambered for 7,62 × 51 and 5,56 × 45 mm NATO mm NATO (MG-3 and MG-4, respectively)" and MG42, these are weapons of DIFFERENT CLASSES.
Your statement about the MG42 and post-war designs is tantamount to saying that the PK, PKK, AKM and AK-74 are exactly the same thing.

[would]

No, it's just that you are illiterate in the matter. AKM and AK-74 are not the same thing, but the crane is similar modifications that essentially differ only in caliber, like MG42 and MG3.

[grak33]

Quote: rait

No, it's just that you are illiterate in the matter.

I can also teach you on this topic.

Quote: rait

AKM and AK-74 are not the same thing, but the crane is similar modifications that essentially differ only in caliber

These are weapons of DIFFERENT CLASSES with a similar design.

Quote: rait

like MG42 and MG3.

And these are weapons of DIFFERENT CLASSES with a similar design.
MG3 is a GPMG class weapon and MG42 is an MMG class weapon.
Classmate MG3, this is a PC. A classmate of MG42, this is SGM. In this case, the bipod / machine tool does not affect the weapon class.

[would]

MG3 is a GPMG class weapon and MG42 is an MMG class weapon.

All clear. With a new incarnation and until the next bank!

[Baron pardus]

Where are you profane and ignorant come from. That's really in nature. Having gained access to a computer, any layman, any balabol, any ignoramus, any demagogue can write whatever he wants - journalism


MG1 - MG42 modified for 7.62x51 NATO - the beginning of production - 1958 ... MG1A1, received a chrome-plated barrel and a new sighting frame. MG1A2 received a heavier bolt, reinforced buffer, and could use both German and American tapes.
MG1A3 received a new flame arrester, bipod, and a reinforced shutter
MG2 - these are MG42 machine guns released DURING THE WAR, and reworked by replacing the barrel and bolt and other small parts.
The MG3 is the MG1A3 but with a new tape feed mechanism, a new tape box, anti-aircraft sight, and a tape retention mechanism when the cover is lifted. It entered production in 1968. GRADUALLY ALL MG1 machine guns of all modifications and MG2 were brought to the level of MG3
IN ANY OCCASION, INSIDE, BY DEVICE IT ALWAYS REMAINED MG-42. The best machine gun of the Second World War.

As for the "MG42 chambered for 5.56x45", it is rather an optical illusion. Machine gun SETME AMELIE really looks like MG42, but inside it is arranged like MG45 / G3 / MP5. Indeed, there is a slowdown in the retreat of the shutter by two rollers. But in MG42 both the barrel and the bolt roll back together and then they corrode, and in MG45 / G3 / MP5 the barrel is motionless.
But I agree, SETME AMELIE looks GREAT.

[Saladine]

Actually, Tommy-gun with his patron could not help in the story of Bonnie and Clyde due to the low penetration of the ammunition.

[grak33]

Quote: Saladine

Tommy-gun with his patron was unable to help in the story of Bonnie and Clyde due to the low penetration of the ammunition.

This is nothing more than an invention of the Runet.
Yes, the penetrating ability of the Tommy Gun bullet is far from outstanding. But they also used it in an era when there were no armor. And for this era, his penetrating ability was quite enough.
At Colt on the same cartridge, the penetration ability of the bullet is even less. However, no one ascribes such a jamb to him.
And when the TommyGan armor appeared, the Americans replaced it with the M16A1.

[Saladine]

It's not about armor, but about the elementary body parts of cars of that time. The .45 did not effectively pass with further damage to the driver / passengers.

[grak33]

Quote: Saladine

It's not about armor, but about the elementary body parts of cars of that time. The .45 did not effectively pass with further damage to the driver / passengers.

I will not say about this, I specialize more in army weapons. And for army weapons, the car body is not considered.
But, of course, the metal was thick in those days. And the Tommy Gun bullet certainly lost some of its energy to overcome it. How much more, I can't say. Never counted.

[Baron pardus]

You are absolutely right. The anemic armor penetration of the 11.43 cartridge forced the Americans to create an excellent 38Super + cartridge, which pierced not only the car body, but also the engine cylinders. Until now, the 38 Super cartridge remains one of the most powerful 9mm cartridges, surpassing the Russian 9x21 cartridge in energy. 680-740J against, 560-600J
Unfortunately, the Americans did not create an SMP for Super 38. Yes, the cartridge was with a small flange, but that did not prevent the British from creating BREN - the machine gun pot 303 British (also with a flange).

[Catfish]

And the Americans could afford such a set of small arms in their armed forces.

You just noticed this, Alexey, it was "you could afford it." A. Bolnykh wrote well about this "American" feature, comparing the United States with the Europeans, I don't remember exactly the quote, but it sounded something like this:
"The Europeans had tanks and tank war theories. The Americans had nothing but money, but that was enough for them."
As for the carbine, I dealt with it, the guys from the GRU gave us an M2, "secretly" flown in from Vietnam, to us in the museum, worn out, but in a very decent condition. They shot at the All-Russian Forensic Science Research Institute. A luxurious weapon, comfortable, light and well-applied, when firing in bursts of 2-3 rounds, the barrel does not lead at all, in short, everyone liked the machine. No, it is clear that everything is really checked on combat, but even so, most, I believe, only saw him in the movies.

[Saladine]

Although the M2 had a fairly simple design, it was very difficult to manufacture, as it required complex metalworking operations. Although the Marlin company was awarded the contract in mid-1942, the first serial submachine guns were not produced until May of the following year. By this time, the MZ submachine gun had already been approved for adoption (see below), and the production of the M2 was discontinued after the release of only 400 copies.
The M2 uses a free breech recoil, although the breech itself has an unusual shape: a large diameter rear and a long and narrow front. The receiver was made from seamless pipe and milled forged parts. Apparently, it was she who was the Achilles heel of the design. It's a pity, since the M2 has a fairly high accuracy, is easy to use, and, probably, it would become more popular among the troops than the MZ. It has one remarkable feature that is not immediately striking: the stock, receiver and barrel are located almost on the same straight line, which helps to keep the barrel from being pulled up when firing. Undoubtedly, this explains the high accuracy. (c) zonwar.ru

[Catfish]

I slightly disagree with you on this issue:

the breech has an unusual shape: the rear part is large in diameter and the front part is long and narrow. Receiver was made from seamless pipe

Just take a look at the photo, and all the details of the M1 and M2 are exactly the same, except for the automatic fire translator added to the M2.

On the top photo is the M2 manufactured by Winchester, on the bottom two there is the box and the M1 shutter.

[Baron pardus]

Although all this has been said retold - I will repeat. The M1 carbine was created in order to give NECOMBATANTS something stronger than a pistol (and with which it is easier not only to shoot, but also to hit). But weaker, and most importantly, EASIER guaranty
The M1 carbine was intended primarily for radio operators, truck drivers, gunners, anti-aircraft gunners, and airfield service personnel. This self-defense weapon is the first reincarnation of the PDW. To drive, or a radio operator, in which case he had something more powerful than a pistol under his friend. Tankers were also armed with them. Construction battalions (SV) - that is, construction battalions, they were also armed with them. in addition, they were armed with gliders and paratroopers. (by the way, the only soldiers NOT of the second / third line who received the M1, purely to save weight). This carbine was NEVER planned as a replacement for Garand, Tommigan or Grisgan. By the way, some cunning sergeant then invented, like from some kind of automobile (emnip), the details to make a detail that turned the M1 into a machine gun. Then they began to make special "conversion kits" that were given out to soldiers. if desired, it was possible to change the M1 from self-priming to automatic. Later, during the Pacific War, these carbines gained popularity in the jungle war. It is thanks to its maneuverability and lightness. By the way, the power and range of the M1 surpassed Thompson. So with the conversion kit T18 and T17, it was not yet a stormgiver but before the PPS :-).

[Alf]

Quote: Sea Cat

Whom do you mean, Alexey?

Zeus-Carbine, of course. Who else can promote such nonsense?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: grak33

And Mannlicher's 7,63x32 mm cartridge probably had even less.
What to do?

Many sources explain this, in addition to a small sample of gunpowder, a pistol-like bullet.

[grak33]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Many sources explain this, in addition to a small sample of gunpowder, a pistol-like bullet.

What does the bullet shape have to do with it?
It was about the power of the weapon, about its muzzle energy.

[Vladimir_2U]

[quote = grak33] It was about the power of the weapon, about its muzzle energy. [/ quote]
[quote] And the American .30 Carbine cartridge (7,62 × 33 mm), is it also "in fact, an intermediate type cartridge" or is it some other class? [/ quote]
It was about the cartridge and why it is not considered intermediate by the Americans, and so it can formally be considered intermediate in terms of muzzle energy, but not in terms of external ballistics, and external ballistics is determined, among other things, by the shape of the bullet.
So that:
[quote = grak33] It would be nice for you to learn the basics of shooting. For starters. [/ Quote]
[quote = grak33]

[kalibr]

Quote: grak33

especially the Steyr M1912.

I held one in my hands. Convenient and handy "thing"!

[grak33]

Quote: kalibr

I held one in my hands. Convenient and handy "thing"!

This is not even the point. Steyr specially designed the 9 × 23 mm Steyr cartridge for his pistol.
With this cartridge, the Steyr M1912 was ballistically a masterpiece. Many decades ahead of their time.
Similar pistols in the world began to be made only at the end of the 20th century. Due to the massive distribution of armored vehicles. But on a 9x19 mm cartridge.
It's just that over half a century gunpowder has become more productive, so the muzzle energy of the Steyr M1912 on a 9x23 mm Steyr cartridge is exactly the same as that of modern pistols on a 9x19 mm cartridge. That is, today the Steyr M1912 is quite modern. Although he is already 110 years old.

[kalibr]

That’s what I don’t know, I don’t know. I saw the photo. It is larger than the standard one, but not much. But he did not "dig". This is a different topic.

[vladcub]

Fedorov praised them for "making excellent rifles," and he already knew weapons

[grak33]

Quote: vladcub

Fedorov praised them, and he already understood weapons

Who told you that?
And nothing that he drowned all the way for the 6,5 mm caliber, which in the 30s was recognized as unpromising in the world and is still so today?
And his "automaton" is a misunderstanding at all. Even the Bolsheviks, how uneducated they were, gave this "product" a turn from the gate. Realizing quickly enough that this is just bullshit.

[Catfish]

Who told you that

Bolsheviks, how uneducated they were

?

[grak33]

Quote: Sea Cat

?

But what, isn't it?
In Russia, even under the autocracy, there was no rifle design school. And after the Bolsheviks came to power, even those who knew at least something, mostly fled in all directions. Or were "liquidated".

[Catfish]

There was no school, no constructors ... Really?
The Second World War was won back with Lend-Lease?

[grak33]

Quote: Sea Cat

There was no school, no constructors ... Really?

Absolutely.
I can only remember Degtyarev.
Not to say that I did something outstanding, but at least I did something. Unlike others.

Quote: Sea Cat

Second World War than won,

WW1 weapons and Soviet debris on the 7,62x25 mm TT cartridge.
Once again, I repeat, there is a DP-27 separately. Not a masterpiece, of course. But you can't call it garbage either.
The patron was not bad, it was still tsarist times.
+
And all Soviet weapons on the cartridge 7,62x25 mm TT were expelled from the army immediately after the war. Because of its unfitness for this very army.

[Catfish]

The patron was not bad, it was still tsarist times.

How could it be that in tsarist Russia, in the absence of a school of their own, they were able to create a "good" patron? Have foreigners contributed?

[grak33]

Quote: Sea Cat

How could it be that in tsarist Russia, in the absence of a school of their own, they were able to create a "good" patron? Have foreigners contributed?

What, patron, is this weapon?
The cartridge is not a weapon.
And it was about a gun shooting school.
Although the patron is very important. It is simply impossible to create a good weapon on a bad cartridge (for example, 7,62x25 mm TT). It can even work flawlessly like a Singer sewing machine. But its ultimate effectiveness will still be poor. Because of the cartridge.

[Catfish]

But its ultimate effectiveness will still be poor. Because of the cartridge.

Well, tell these guys about the weapon and the cartridge.

By the way, people did not seem to complain about the Mauser K96, although the cartridge is the same.

[grak33]

Quote: Sea Cat

Well, tell these guys about the weapon and the cartridge.

But why?
The Germans did not use the PPSh for a good life. They didn't have enough weapons. Therefore, they did not arm themselves with anything. Perhaps not yet with axes and pitchforks.
By the way, they called the PPSh MP.717 (r).

Quote: Sea Cat

By the way, people did not seem to complain about the Mauser K96, although the cartridge is the same

What kind of people?
From the execution cellars?
He could no longer physically complain.
And in the army, 7,63 mm Mauser never served. Only in 9 mm caliber chambered for 9x25 mm Mauser Export. They had a big nine on the handle.

[Catfish]

From the execution cellars?

Let's go... Happy to stay, tired of crushing water in a mortar.

[hohol95]

+100500 reincarnation of "Saint Carbine" ...

[Catfish]

Very similar!

[grak33]

Quote: Sea Cat

Let's go

And what, it was not?
Check out the docs: https://istmat.info/node/57800

[vladcub]

"they didn't have enough weapons" FN produced pencils, UHF, what did they produce?

[hohol95]

But imagine - it's time to arm the Volkssturmists, and the warehouses are empty ...
Or everything was "lost" on the fronts or secretly "sold" to allies and neutrals or "aliens plundered" !!!

[Catfish]

So in what year the Fritzes switched the industry completely on a war footing? I don’t remember exactly the date, but it seemed to take a long time.

[hohol95]

And how many trophies did they take?
And then lo and behold the barn is empty. It is necessary to scrape along the bottom so as not to rake on the tinsel - it did not help !!!

[Catfish]

The Fuhrer’s head was thinking, I was thinking, but I didn’t think that things would turn out like that.

[grak33]

Quote: Sea Cat

The Fuhrer’s head was thinking, I was thinking, but I didn’t think that things would turn out like that.

After Kidos by the Americans in September 1940, and especially after the Americans declared a hybrid war on Germany in March 1941, the Germans had few options for thought.
Or they make a vanderwaffe and somehow come to terms with the Americans. While maintaining your Reich.
Or the variant that happened in May 1945.
The Germans did not do Vanderwaffe. Therefore, the second option worked.

[hohol95]

The Yankees are guilty of everything ...
I knew it
The Herods destroyed the "Millennial Reich"!

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

The Yankees are guilty of everything ...

Well, they definitely muddied two world wars to solve their problems.
And, I must say, they achieved their ultimate goal.
Since September 1940, the world has been theirs alone. And there are no other masters in this world. Not left as after WW1.

Quote: hohol95

The Herods destroyed the "Millennial Reich"!

They created it, and when it completed its main task, for which it was created, they destroyed it.
And you don't have to envy the Yankees, you have to learn from them. Learn perseverance in achieving your goals.

[vladcub]

And that was

[grak33]

Quote: vladcub

"they didn't have enough weapons"

Not enough.
Because they were not preparing for a protracted war. And their industry was limited.
It was the countries of the Anti-Hitler coalition that had limited opportunities. And the Axis countries used everything that came to hand. From poverty.

[hohol95]

In each of the belligerent countries, the threshold of "poverty" was at different times and with regard to different types of weapons.
Some have overcome this "poverty". Others have become "poorer" because of their own mistakes.

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

Others have become "poorer" because of their own mistakes.

So the Germans used everything they could get their hands on. Even the Soviet PPSh and analogues.

[hohol95]

The question to the "Teutons" themselves is why they brought themselves to "extreme poverty"?
Even the English "STEN" was copied - it didn't help!
385 thousand Polish ViS-35s were received by the Germans, both as trophies and newly manufactured by the Poles at the FBR plant in the city of Radom. And the cartridge 9x19 and made quite a lot - it did not help!
And you know why - they hoped for trophies, and the production of their own weapons barely mastered the increase in production!
In the fall of 1939, 12670 pistols were issued to 4 servicemen of various ranks and officers of 3812 SS regiments! Incomplete by 4 times. And this is in 1939!
They could not produce the required amount themselves, and there were not enough trophies for everyone.
Nice spoon for dinner ...

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

Do you know why - they hoped for trophies

And they hoped for trophies.
And in September 1941 they planned to end active and massive hostilities.
From October 1941 the Germans planned to switch to the tactics of a besieged fortress. Along the way, throwing all his strength to create a vanderwaffe.
In this situation (if the Germans succeeded in everything), the Reich would still be. But history has taken a different path. And so in May 1945 the Reich ended.

[hohol95]

Did you intend to enter Cairo on white horses in September 1941?
Or will the British Empire raise its hands after the "fall" of the USSR?
Very optimistic plans ...

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

Did you intend to enter Cairo on white horses in September 1941?

In 1941, mostly Italians were planning. The Germans then basically helped them.
It was only later that they took matters into their own hands.

Quote: hohol95

Or after the "fall" of the USSR, the British Empire itself will raise its hands

The British Empire ended in September 1940.
The Germans finished it off then, to the delight of the Americans. Which actually for this the Germans from the beginning of the 30s and fed.
Then the new masters of the world, the Americans, traded with the Axis countries. What is unknown, it is only known that they did not agree.
And in March 1941, the Americans declared a hybrid war on the Axis countries.
In history, it is believed that it was still WW2. But in fact it was a completely new war, the Third World War. Since it was no longer led by Britain (Britain was leading WW2), but the United States.
But history is written by the winners, so it is believed that WW1939 lasted all the way from September 2. Although this is not at all the case.
WW2 was from September 1939 to September 1940. Britain lost this war, but merged not with the Germans, but with the Americans.
And from March 1941 to September 1945 there was WW3. This war was fought by the Americans. At first, it is a hybrid, and from the end of the year, after Pearl Harbor, it is already traditional.

[hohol95]

Expelled from the army ...
In your understanding, "immediately after the war" is how many years have passed since the end of the Great Patriotic War?

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

In your understanding, "immediately after the war" is how many years have passed since the end of the Great Patriotic War?

Since September 1941?
I did not count.
But relatively little time.
At the same time, one must understand that until the end of the world war, until September 1945, 4 years, no one would have changed anything anyway. The war was going on.

[hohol95]

You do not understand the question?
I was interested in the time of "expulsion" from the army of the models of weapons that used the cartridge 7,65x25.

[Sergey Kyulyan]

And what did PPS 43 Sudaev dislike for you under the same 7,62x25 mm? Not an expert in weapons, but is he recognized not only by our experts as an extremely technologically advanced and successful PP?

[grak33]

Quote: Sergey Kyulyan

7,62x25 mm? Not an expert in weapons, but is he recognized not only by our experts as an extremely technologically advanced and successful PP?

Cartridge 7,62x25 mm sports.
On a sports cartridge, in principle, there cannot be a "successful weapon for the army" (and for the police too).
Since sports cartridges have poor stopping power (and poor stopping power, but this is important for the police).
And this destructiveness cannot be corrected with a weapon (mechanism). It can only be worsened by an unsuccessful design.
The army needs weapons in order to KILL the enemy. Kill him as much and as efficiently as possible. It is for this that the army and weapons are created for it.
Therefore, army weapons are a completely separate niche of small arms. It is not at all the same as sports, hunting or police. And it is tuned accordingly, for the most effective destruction of one of the species of mammals, walking on two legs.
At the same time, I repeat, even a good cartridge suitable for army weapons is not all. An unsuccessful mechanism can ruin everything.
For example, a three-line, this is an army weapon.
And there are all sorts of SVT and ABC, hunting. At the same time, they have the same cartridge, 7,62x54 mm. But the mechanisms are very different. And already from the difference in mechanisms comes the difference in classes.
And the point is not at all in the reloading mechanism.
+
Yes, by the way, the SVD is an army weapon, but not a combined-arms one, but a sniper one. And this difference is also due to the design features.
At the same time, for all the years of the existence of the USSR, they could not make a self-loading army general rifle for a 7,62x54 mm rifle cartridge. Here is the type of American Garand of the times of WW2.
There was no design school.
And the Germans in the Reich did not make such rifles.
++
And you sneeze at these "specialists" on the teaching staff. They are not worth a broken penny.

[hohol95]

How do you explain the proceedings in 1939 over the poor performance of the M1 "Garand" rifles that began to enter the US Army in 1936?

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

How do you explain the proceedings in 1939 over the poor performance of the M1 "Garand" rifles that began to enter the US Army in 1936?

The defectiveness of such rifles arr. 1936 g.
In this case, the Garanda rifle arr. 1940 (modernized rifle Garand arr. 1936) was devoid of such shortcomings and was an excellent army combined arms weapon.
In fact, it was a revolution in the field of small arms (in 1940). It was the first air-conditioning rifle of this class to be put into service. Everything that came before her in this area was NECONDITION. Including the Garand rifle arr. 1936 g.
Nothing like the Garand rifle arr. 1940 in the USSR and could not be created.
There was no one.
There were no small arms designers.
+
Americans are generally pioneers in the field of small arms.
Let's take the years of WW2.
The only conditioned army pistol was in service only with the Americans (Colt).
One of the two conditioned PPs was in service with the Americans (TommyGun). The second was among the Hungarians (Danuvia).
The only self-loading was the Americans (Garand M1). However, Lee-Enfield's British bolt was not much worse.
The BAR automatic rifle (normal) was only in the possession of the Americans. The Soviet counterpart DP-27 was much worse. Although the DP-27 was still a conditioned automatic rifle. Bad, but nonetheless.
At the same time, the American concept of small arms (like the Soviet one of those years) did not imply the presence of LMG (light machine guns) in the army. And the Germans did not have them, I already wrote about this in detail above. Only the British had them. Moreover, even in two versions.
Well, and of course the revolutionary M16 in the 60s. That's what they have jumped all over the world with, and much more. Almost forever.

[Sergey Kyulyan]

Thank you for your detailed comment.

[Baron pardus]

World War II was won back by Mosinkoy. Obviously old. Machine gun Maxim (aka Vickers), clearly not of Russian / Soviet origin. ABC-36 turned out to be too fragile
The SVT-40 required more maintenance than the average Soviet Summoner could provide. PPD40 was unnecessarily difficult to manufacture. So there remained the PPSh (whose disks from one PPSh did not fit the other PPSh), and which sometimes, when dropped, shot itself ... Which, in theory, the weapon SHOULD NOT do. PPS, which was too long for the length of its barrel, and DP-27. Which was inferior in accuracy to BREN, was distinguished by brittle magazines that were rarely loaded for 47 rounds, since they were buggy), an overheating return spring (located under the barrel - therefore, overheating). Degtyar cannot even be compared with MG42 or MG34.
Mosinka - I have the opportunity to compare Mosinka with Lee Enfield and with Mauser and Sprinfield. Of all these rifles, the Mosinka is the poorest. The most inconvenient, with the most sloppy fuse, with the most inconvenient loading system (you need to pull the clip out of the mosinka by hand, from the Mauser and Enfield it flies out by itself when the shutter is closed). with the most inconvenient reload handle and its position. And therefore, with the lowest rate of fire. Moreover, due to the "genius" of the design, removing the bayonet meant having to shoot the weapon again. Walking with a bayonet attached meant having a long spear with zero maneuverability.
Maxim is vickers as vickers. :-) Not on a tripod, but on wheels.
DShK, nothing bad can be said about the machine gun, only for some reason it did not want to be produced (compare how many M2 Browning riveted in the USA).
Revolver Nagant. Squalor. On this resource, they have already talked about revolvers with a gas breakthrough system, but which could be reloaded in packs, and not one cartridge at a time.
TT-33 is a great thing. In many ways even better than the Colt Browning. But without a fuse.

So our rifleman was very dumb. But, it is worth admitting that given the fact that not only the Russian Empire was a European non-Honduras, it was also affected by the intervention + the civil war + the conspiracies of the Trotskyists, the conspiracies of the generals. So it's a miracle that they created what they created.
By the way, if the USSR had another 2 years old, the SVT-40 would have been brought to mind. And so the Germans brought her to mind, having received G43.

[hohol95]

It turns out that you don't want to compare the Soviet one with the French "shooter"?
And why are all French small arms bypassed ???
Very interesting...

[Baron pardus]

I don't want to compare with the French shooter. Because I know practically nothing about the French rifleman.
I know that the Hochkiss M1922 is another brand-like one, there were no special problems with it, it seems, but I, again, don't know the details. Therefore, I cannot compare it with DP27. I know that the guardians' pistol cartridge was frankly weak, which could not but affect the quality of their pistols and machine gun pistols. But at the same time I not only know, I fired from the MAC-36 rifle. She, by the way, also covers the mosink like a bull a sheep. And in terms of convenience, and accuracy, and rate of fire and application. I don't know much about their 13.2 Machine Gun either. Only that it seemed to be reliable but the rate of fire was small due to store food. I repeat, I know too little about the French rifleman.

[hohol95]

MAC36 at the time of the attack of the Germans was made 250 thousand.
The rest of the French soldiers probably went into battle with halberds from the Hundred Years War?
Or with the "sheep" of the First Imperialist era? "
"Lebeli" and "Berthier".
They had a light machine gun Mle1924 / 29 in appearance "Czech ZB 26", but in "content" American BAR. The barrel overheated after 150 shots (did not change), a magazine for 20 rounds, poor workmanship. A new cartridge with a 53mm sleeve instead of 57mm for the previous 7,5mm cartridge had to be created for it.
And the DP27's problems with overheating of the spring arose from the fact that they were "covered" by the lack of heavy machine guns and fired from them in long bursts! For which it was not designed. Actually, like the Finnish Lahti, the Anglo-Czechoslovak BREN (complex in design and overwhelmed by the British industry "squeak")
The Danes continued to release their Madsen.
The Germans also started not with MG34, but with MG13! The Americans, like in WWI, ran with BARs. The Japanese fought with the "bunker" Type 11 and "Japanese Czechs" Type 96 and Type 99.
And I strongly doubt that all these machine guns could create a density of fire even at the level of easel Vickers, Maxims and Browning.
Not to mention the MG42.

[vladcub]

Fedorovna was not "liquidated", Simonov. Tokareva

[Catfish]

Do not waste time in vain, the client is on his "wave".

[grak33]

Quote: vladcub

Fedorovna was not "liquidated", Simonov. Tokareva

What, did they make some suitable types of weapons?
No, they didn't really do anything.
And what they did was sooner or later rejected.
Not obsolete over the years (like DP-27), namely, it was rejected. Like, like TT and SKS.

[vladcub]

SCS appeared late. He would be fine by the beginning of the Second World War

[grak33]

Quote: vladcub

SCS appeared late. He would be fine by the beginning of the Second World War

What was so beautiful about him?
A wretched product recognized as unsuccessful even in the USSR.
Still the meaning of AK can somehow be understood and forgiven.
But how to understand and forgive SCS? This is the same horror that happened. And in the world no one has done anything like this anywhere. As unnecessary.

[vladcub]

So they said

[Dmitry 80]

In that historical period, each country had its own production equipment for its own calibers, retooling was very expensive, for the USSR in gold and other valuable resources. The main weapon of the infantry then in all countries was a magazine rifle, economical to cartridges and lethal, as long as the gaze was enough. Fedorov offered his 6.5x42 cartridge and a devourer of cartridges for it. Naturally, it was deployed, first with a cartridge (eat up 6.5 Arisaka), and then with a unit. Then they knew how to count money, and distributed it to what was needed in the industry and defense industry.

[hohol95]

It turns out that the "product" of the Mexican General Mondragon was better?

[grak33]

Quote: hohol95

It turns out that the "product" of the Mexican General Mondragon was better?

Definitely.
If only because it was on a 7 × 57 mm cartridge. Also not ice, of course. But this is still not 6,5 mm.
The Mannlicher M1895 rifle was pretty good.
This is not a self-loading, but also not a typical bolt - it had a direct action bolt, like the self-loading.
That is, it is like self-charging, but without a gas engine. And no automation at all.

[Mikhail3]

And where is your article on Steyr pistols?)

[sifgame]

In the "Green Van" Kozachinsky is mentioned in the final denouement of the Mannlicher carbine. But in the film I don't remember what kind of weapon it was.

[hohol95]

In both film adaptations - "Mannlicher".
Only the first has a carbine, and the second has a rifle.

[knn54]

Feel the difference: "Your word, Comrade Mauser!" and: "Your word, Comrade Mannlicher!"

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: knn54

Feel the difference: "Your word, Comrade Mauser!" and: "Your word, Comrade Mannlicher!"

Probably it's like Rzhevsky and Rabinovich!

[Catfish]

Good evening everyone, thank you Vyacheslav!

There is nothing to add, except that the Mannlicher M1905 view from the left.

[CTABEP]

A smart car of course. It looks unusual, but very elegant.

[Catfish]

No doubt, it is impossible to take your eyes off.

[3x3zsave]

firm "Steyr"
I will add and correct. The name of the city and company is nevertheless read, written and pronounced like "Steyr".
Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

[kalibr]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

And you! For the addition-amendment ...

[Catfish]

"All at once jumped up from their seats,
But then the kid climbed in with the amendment:
You're confused, Dad. "(C)

[3x3zsave]

"The hopes of young men are nourished" (C)

[Catfish]

"And finally, on the decline of days
Suddenly understands man
The vanity of hopes, the vanity of ideas ... "(c)

[vladcub]

V. Oh, when I saw "Mannlicher" and immediately remembered Ostrovsky. So, I guessed what the epigraph will be.
And now I have a question: why is Ostrovsky talking about a twelve-shot pistol?
Ostrovsky was a member of the GV, he was well acquainted with weapons

[Catfish]

Ostrovsky was a member of the GV, he was well acquainted with weapons

That is exactly what is only familiar, but not a specialist, for such any revolver is a "revolver", and a pistol is a "Browning", and then at best.

[vladcub]

True, but in this case there is no talk of Browning

[Catfish]

About "Nagan" also not.

It's like in the famous film: "And Fox took out the Nagant and ..." (c)

How could the woman know that he had taken out a pistol called "TT"?

[depressant]

How could the woman know that he had taken out a pistol called "TT"?

Because now they simply and uncomplicatedly say "trunk" )))

[hohol95]

"... bared the trunk."
With these words, Senior Lieutenant Tamantsev "Skorokhvat" from the work "In August 44" describes the process of removing personal weapons.

[depressant]

August 44 "describes the process of retrieving personal weapons.

By the way, the film amazed. Especially Galkin. I even wanted to reconsider - such a tension! You forget that the people on the screen are actors.

[Catfish]

The film also impressed me, I immediately wanted to kill the director, and at the same time the operator, along with Galkin. No wonder Bogomolov forbade putting his last name in the credits, the old SMERShevets was right!

[hohol95]

Because of him, the film of the Soviet attempt to film the book was erased !!!
Again, everything was unsettled ...
The book is very large and with a lot of information, characters!
Not just one movie, but a whole series with a decent budget!

[Catfish]

Because of him, the film of the Soviet attempt to film the book was erased !!!

“Because of him,” we a lot, and indeed, just learned about the subtleties and difficulties of SMERSH's work, there would be no Bogomolov, there would be no subject for conversation, so it’s up to him whether a worthy film was made or another piece of work was released.

[depressant]

Because of him, "we just learned a lot, and in general, about the subtleties and difficulties of SMERSH's work

By the way, I had no idea how SMERSH worked, what was the meaning of his activities. But also something else. I watched the film and seemed to plunge into that difficult, difficult, alarming era. I felt it. Without a film - hardly.

[Catfish]

Good evening, Luda.
Read Bogomolov and without explanation, you will understand why I and most of those who read the book, the film did not "go". Here at Bogomolov you will plunge into that era, and in this movie, excuse me, just color pictures, and even stupidly filmed.

[depressant]

in this movie, sorry, just color pictures, and even mediocre filmed.

Good evening, Kostya! )))
Don't you think that after reading the book, you, as if in advance with your rich imagination of the artist, have built a certain video sequence, but take it and do not coincide with the vision of the scriptwriter and director?

[Catfish]

So I am not the only one who thinks so, many, especially those who read the book, agree with me, and even people with not very "rich imagination". By the way, this film did not even coincide with the vision of the screenwriter, i.e. Bogomolov.
And regarding the camera work, watch the American film "Brothers in Arms" - this is how you need to work, and not sculpt "color pictures".

[depressant]

that's how you need to work, and not sculpt "color pictures".

Tomorrow I'll watch "Brothers")))
And today I suddenly discovered that the time was late, the fog was frozen outside the window, it was turning white in the night on the grass, pretending to be snow )))

[Catfish]

And we have a little snow fell in the morning. By the way, "Brothers" is a series, but not boring.

Good night.

[depressant]

Good morning! )))
The series, you say ... And I'm watching "Lucifer". I found out that, it turns out, it was continued, and now I need to watch, well, I watched season 4, the first three episodes yesterday. About how the heroes suffer, trying to understand each other, and how supporting characters interfere with this process. The saddest thing is that the actors have aged. That means all of us.
And again this is the most unpleasant phenomenon - winter outside the window, while a hint, and then it will unfold ...
Today at least I'll watch the Brothers trailer)))

[Catfish]

Good morning!

I have not seen "Lucifer", I rarely watch anything, especially new ones.

And winter - yes, a disgusting phenomenon.

[depressant]

Lucifer "did not see, I generally very rarely watch something, especially new.

And you watch at least a couple of episodes. About how, in a Jesuitical way, the image of a good Devil is introduced into the mind of the viewer. And God - yes, he is bad and has never been on Earth. Like, fit in. And the series continued, by the way, at the request of the enthusiastic audience. Here we came.

[3x3zsave]

And winter - yes, a disgusting phenomenon.
Looking for a "door to summer"?

[Catfish]

Well, I don't live in St. Petersburg. We Muscovites are pampered people.

"In January, winter is serious,
You can freeze your nose.
Only we go swimming
On the Neva in any frost, "(c)

[Senior seaman]

Quote: depressant

Found that, it turns out, he continued,

Really?

Quote: depressant

About how, in a Jesuitical way, the image of a good Devil is introduced into the mind of the viewer.

Well, not a new idea. For example, Bulgakov's Woland cannot be said to be a bad character ...

[depressant]

Really?

Good evening, Ivan! )))
So you see, what's the matter ... After 3 seasons, the creators of the series announced that they had finished the work and would not be filming any more. I was led. And the people were indignant and demanded the continuation of "Lucifer". We started filming. Not knowing this, I quite accidentally discovered that three seasons had already been filmed, and now, I have to watch. But, they say, the 6th season is still the last and very good.

[Wildcat]

Bogomolov was reprinted, there is a good two-volume edition, there "In August 44" with parts not included in the first editions. Not bad.
And diaries, as the author did not even write, but made this book.
I highly recommend it!

[Catfish]

Thank you, colleague, what is the name of the publication and how long ago did you buy this two-volume edition?

[vladcub]

It is interesting. Perhaps I can find it?

[Catfish]

You will find it, drop it in a personal.

[vladcub]

I will definitely strike, but for this you need to find

[Wildcat]

I bought it 5 years ago, sometimes there is still in bookstores.
Not in the Labyrinth.
https://www.labirint.ru/books/196428/
"Annotation to the book" Works in 2 volumes. Volume 1: The Moment of Truth (In August 'XNUMX ...) "

The two-volume prose by Vladimir Bogomolov (1926-2003) offered to the reader's attention - vol. I "Moment of Truth", vol. II - "Pain in my heart" - the most complete collection of works by the outstanding Russian writer. The first volume includes the famous novel "The Moment of Truth" ("In August of the forty-fourth ..."), which immediately after its publication became an international bestseller and was translated into more than fifty foreign languages. This edition of the novel (114th in a row) is for the first time accompanied by documentary materials from the archive of V.O. Bogomolov, referring to both the creative biography of the writer himself and the "biography" of the book. The second volume, Pain in My Heart, includes famous military stories and stories by V.O. Bogomolov: "Ivan", "Zosia", "First Love" and others, as well as chapters from the unpublished novel "My Life, Or I Dreamed of You ...". "

[Catfish]

Thank you.

[Wildcat]

IMHO, already in the Internet libraries could be laid out, but I did not look there.

[3x3zsave]

"Pacific" ("Pacific Front" in the Russian version) was printed by the Bolsheviks.

[Catfish]

I didn’t see it, it’s even strange. And here, as an example of excellent camera work, I took what is just closer in the landscape, Europe is still not the Pacific Ocean.

[3x3zsave]

I won't say about the entire crew, but the producers are the same.
Before each episode, the memories of the participants in the events. All the main characters are real people

[Catfish]

Well, this money will not be paid for free, judging by the "Brothers".

[Okolotochny]

Lyudmila Yakovlevna, I will not be for an openly unsuccessful selection of actors. One colleague once posted that it was necessary to use a voice-over .... voice, like E. Kopelyan in "Seventeen Moments". All the complexity, hellish tension and a huge shaft of rough, but necessary SMERSH work in the book are indicated in the guidelines, cipher codes and comments of the author. The film did not convey this even by 10%.

[depressant]

Apparently, they were making the film for a more, well, let's say, consumer audience of their time. Based on the capabilities of both the audience, for which the Second World War is already far away, and the budget.

[Okolotochny]

Yes, most likely so. Therefore, such a negative reaction of Bogomolov. The output is an ersatz.

[depressant]

And I wanted, like Shepitko's )))

[PilotS37]

Quote: Sea Cat

Read Bogomolov and without explanation you will understand why me and most of those who read the book, the film did not "go".

I've read this novel 4 times (2nd and 3rd - in a row without stopping), but I watch the film with pleasure (also more than once already) and will watch it again! Of course, it is weaker than a book, but this book is a masterpiece, you can't just stick it "in the cinema" ... And in the film, we managed to convey a lot of important things from the novel.
By the way, in addition to "August ..." I also read a lot of things at Bogomolov's. He wrote about the war in a very unusual way: he did not paint "exploits", but described the life of a soldier in the war. Awesome! Read, for example, "Zosia" ...

[hohol95]

So Stephen King very rarely speaks in a good manner about the film adaptations of his works!
And once he took up the shooting and said - "Everything should be realistic ..."
And the operator lost his right eye ...
And he soldered a claim for 18 "cartoons" in dollars.
Grind in pre-trial order ...
And there was a "film" (to put it mildly, strange) - "Maximum acceleration"!
And after that, Mr. King tied up with the directing!
A Soviet film adaptation of the adventures of Holmes and Watson would have led to Conan Doyle's "kondrashka" ...
How dare the "Russian barbarians" out of a drug addict-detective make a person who does not use anything "amusing and disturbing the brain"!

[Catfish]

Comparison does not roll. King is a fantasy, Bogomolov is more than real and he himself experienced what he writes about.
As for Conan Doyle, he had a sense of humor and just a film from "Russian barbarians" would have come to his liking. But this is the one as a joke.

[hohol95]

Filming or animation production - the main "fuel" is money and time!
There is money - the process is underway. No money, no process.
The film does not reveal at all the theme of the assistant commandant of the city of Anikushin. There is no understanding of his actions. But this is extra time and money ...
With a lot of money, the entire book will fit only in a series of 5 episodes!

[Catfish]

Rabinovich was summoned to the KGB.

- Rabinovich, we have information that you have two million.

- And what do you want?

- Let's do this: one million will remain for you for a comfortable life, and the second you give us voluntarily.
We are building communism and we need money.

- You know, when there is no money, there is nothing to build.

Something like this. If you can't - don't take it.

[hohol95]

For the "idea" has not been removed for a long time ...
This "Bloodsport" and "Mad Max" were filmed "on sheer enthusiasm"!
And now only CASH!

[vladcub]

But what series. Provided that it is filmed well

[hohol95]

We are friendly to Netflix ...
They have money and operators and decorators ...

[vladcub]

Are you a producer?

[hohol95]

No no no...
Neither education nor outlook !!!
Only as a spectator and sofa critic!

[hohol95]

Well, in all honesty on "Mannlicher" - are you, Konstantin, more interested in the film "No Way Back" or a modern "burp" in the form of the series "Disappeared"?
Similar comparisons can be made between "The Dawns Here Are Quiet" in 1972 with a "craft" from 2015!
At the same time, the Chinese filmed the series for themselves in 2005 !!! 19 episodes !!! And Boris Vasiliev helped the Chinese comrades to bring the story to the size of such a series!
When broadcasting in the Russian Federation, the series was "cut" to 12 episodes!

[depressant]

A Soviet film adaptation of the adventures of Holmes and Watson would have led to Conan Doyle's "kondrashka" ...
How dare the "Russian barbarians ...

Yes, the point is not even about the "Russian barbarians", but the fact that, taking the canvas of a popular book as a basis, the directors embroider their own patterns on it, and even ideological ones. So I started watching the film "The Ugly Swans" based on the work of the same name by the Strugatskys, partly included in "Lame Destiny". Started, and could not. Because I had already built my own city in my imagination, where it rains forever, and fell in love with the image of the hero - the writer Banev, a great specialist in drinking and eating, an ironic, clever skeptic, and the indescribable humor of the work, and they began to show me a man with some especially wide muzzle, mowing under the good looks and indecent seriousness, characteristic of that part of the Russian "intelligentsia", in which the tone is set by the living Akhedzhakovs and the late Novodvorskys or whoever else has died there ... But someone is delighted with this film ... And what to do?
I am already silent about the book "It is difficult to be a god" spoiled by Herman. And about the "Roadside Picnic" mutilated by Tarkovsky ...
With their pitiful little ideas and idle talk, the directors tried to cling to the powerful ideological and artistic basis of books, which in themselves read like a movie. It is a rare case when a book is not so much read as you see. But here, and this, too, someone liked. And I liked "In August 44th". Because I have not read the book)))

[hohol95]

Bulychev himself wrote a script for "The Guest from the Future." And the film is very different from A Hundred Years Ahead.
But does that make the movie worse?
Or the cartoon "The Mystery of the Third Planet"?
Well, they didn't insert the Third Captain into the plot ...
And about Herman and Tarkovsky - both used motives, but each in its own way. These films haven’t hit me either!
So it is with the continuation of the themes of some works by other authors.
"The guy from the underworld" got the "second part" and there is such, such ... not a word to say, not a pen about the writer to break off !!!

[Catfish]

"The guy from the underworld" got the "second part" and there is such, such ... not a word to say, not a pen about the writer to break off !!!

I read this hand-made article, there is nothing to add to what you said.

[depressant]

By the way, there is a valuable thought in "The Guy from the Underworld". Think about who you need to turn your weapon against, if you already have it in your hands.
But the thing is really hasty, apparently, written in the end and in the authors' own confusion of thoughts.

[Catfish]

Yes, there, in the end, the guy was simply taken away from the weapon and attached to the necessary case.

[depressant]

Yes, they did.
Sometimes among those who introduce there is a staff shortage (((

[Catfish]

As far as I remember, it was a doctor from an ambulance, and it had to be pushed out of the mud. So "hunger", in my opinion, has nothing to do with it, people had to go to sleep, wounded.

[depressant]

Kostya, what if the car hadn't been caught?
And that's not what I mean. Now, oddly enough, in this regard, since the day before yesterday, I am rereading the "Legend of the Grand Inquisitor". Why did you, Lord, give people free will. This is the first of the questions that Jesus solved for himself in Pustini.

[Catfish]

Kostya, what if the car hadn't been caught?

Something else came across, the guy was no longer that "Fighting cat", only he himself did not know about it yet.

[hohol95]

It is difficult to break the system that brought you up in your own soul!
This withdrawal happened to Gaga ...
Only for one reason - he was thrown into a completely different environment, into a different life. And the attempt to keep on himself the "Fighting Cat Skin" he failed - the previous hardships, life in hunger, the vision of only the barracks and its "way".
And most importantly - according to the plot, he is not "Cat", but "Kitten-cadet". Young, absorbing new knowledge, like a sponge. And "the protective skin has cracked"!
Still, he was in a different environment - if he had left his "earthlings" on Giganda, he would have fought in the swamps and jungles for another 10 years, like Japanese soldiers on the tropical islands.

[Catfish]

... Because I have not read the book)))

Shame and shame! I'm dumbfounded!
"How can you !? It's very, very much! Why! Yes! Yes! But ... NO !!!" (with)

I couldn't watch Gersanov's craft, but my son liked it. As for "Stalker", you shouldn't, I liked the film quite well, though mainly because of the beauty of the Zone filmed in it.

[depressant]

As for the image of the Zone, I give it credit. The water in which the Stalker lays down to cleanse himself of the filth, and the filth of the past, which is carried away by the stream in the form of scraps of pages and some iconic objects, is understandable. A cinematic representation of the hero's self-cleaning process, his moral maturation to ... a reflective intellectual. This is clear. However, the transformation of the ironic, strong and very evil Redrick Shewhart into an office-type man weakened by doubts is not close to me.

[Catfish]

... the office-type man, weakened by doubts, is not close to me.

He’s just a fool, don’t you understand?

[depressant]

In the film, yes. In the book, no.
Therefore, the Zone, described by the Strugatskys, has become a powerful image of the Russian Federation, exploited in hundreds of works by Russian authors who do not want to run into law enforcement officials. The era of allegory. At a time when Russia is trying to degenerate into something incomprehensible, and the council of doctors only shrugs its shoulders.

[Catfish]

I'm talking about a movie, and that's a completely different story.

[Catfish]

strong and very angry Redrick Shewhart

By the way, I always wondered where the brothers got the surname Shukhard, because nothing just happens with them.
I found one, though his name was Otto. Corvette Captain Otto Schuhard.

[depressant]

The brothers spelled the surname as Shewhart.
And how are Redrick and Otto close?

[Catfish]

And how are Redrick and Otto close?

Both fighters, both did not give up and did not give up in front of danger. And they are somewhat similar in appearance, Otto seems to be also red-haired.

Otto, in addition to a decently drowned tonnage, also has the Royal Navy aircraft carrier "Koreyges", despite the fact that she went through the whole war, remained alive.

[depressant]

Let's leave the topic of Shewhart and Schuhard.
For the topic of the leather glove has not yet been revealed, in which the hand gripping the Mannlicher on the intro to the article is wrapped. )))

[Catfish]

As you wish.

Gloves are not my topic, I never liked gloves and hats.

[depressant]

As you wish.

Yes, I mean, why did you wear gloves? So that the sweat does not become a lubricant, forcing the pistol to slide in your hand or something else?

[Catfish]

I don’t know, my hands didn’t sweat when shooting, even in the heat and under the sun, I need to drink less water. Gloves only got in my way, even rifle lungs. In cold weather, of course, it will be bad without them. Each time has its own form.

[depressant]

Strange ...
I categorically refused leather gloves in the cold, my hands are very cold.
It remains to be assumed that gloves are a part of the arrow's shape that reduces the likelihood of his identification.

[Catfish]

part of the arrow shape that reduces the likelihood of its identification.

Well, only in that case, I guess.

[depressant]

Well, only in that case, I guess

Irony is our everything. What else remains? (((

[Catfish]

Good evening, Lyudmila.

As Captain Peter Blood said - "Irony is the only thing that does not allow you to go crazy in this world." I don't remember the exact quote, but the meaning is something like this.

[depressant]

Good evening, Kostya)))
Events somehow suddenly piled on, became acute, as if the veil had fallen from what was happening. All this is unbearably disgusting. Where I am? Where is it? And it suddenly became clear why for 30 years from 91st I still did not have a feeling of home. The State Department has declared the Russians homeless. And it really is. Will worthy anger come? Will it cover who?
Such is the sadness.

[Catfish]

The State Department has declared the Russians homeless.

I did not understand a little, the State Department announced, so what? In general, I do not follow political news at all, I am tired and disgusted.

[depressant]

And so he took it and announced. Like, you do not have a deployment on the territory of Russia in the form of your own republic, and this is provided that the other two hundred peoples and nationalities have one, so please, go to the States for visas, say, to the Russian consulate in Poland. It was a signal for that black wave of Nazism, which suddenly stirred up and rolled over us from the Asians and Caucasians. I’m watching everything. It's a habit, you know, since Abkhaz times, and now they give me to understand that I am a guest in the land of my ancestors, in the Moscow region, and there is no adequate response to this wave from the law enforcement authorities! So there is no nation. The domineering elite has achieved its goal. We were dissolved. Should I rejoice? I drove home, arrived in the village. And my mind is burdened with confusion ...
Lives well only among his own people, Kostya. No matter how bad theirs are.

[Catfish]

Lives well only among its own,

This is true, but I do not consider the situation to be catastrophic, until I do. An explosion can occur anywhere, but the camp is too large, and the local one can be crushed very quickly. That's when it comes to the Russians that it's time to bomb the gun shops and military units of the local military unit - that's the point. But somehow I don't really believe in it.
Look better, we have a new clown to replace the deceased Bose Karbayn, nickname grak33 (Yordan Konstantinov). The whole mood will cheer you up.

[depressant]

we have a new clown to replace the deceased Bose Karbain, nickname grak33 (Yordan Konstantinov). The whole mood will cheer you up.

Kostya, what are you talking about? Who is this? Where to look? )))

[Catfish]

Another "great" weapons specialist has appeared. See above for his nickname. Funny guy.

[Undecim]

or something else?

To protect hands from environmental influences and mechanical damage.

[depressant]

That is, the protection of the hands themselves? Acknowledged, thank you very much, Viktor Nikolaevich! You, as always, are in the subject)))

[saygon66]

- An item of uniform ... no more! In the Soviet Army, leather gloves were issued to officers and warrant officers, knitted gloves to soldiers and sailors ...

[UA3QHP]

Quote: saygon66

knitted - for soldiers and sailors ...

Ceremonial. Everyday soldiers have double-fingered mittens.

[hohol95]

"Mirage" or "The whole world in your pocket"?
The film has a political line and "superfluous" characters. It's not in the book, everything is simple and clear - people die for a bunch of dollars !!! It's just that they personally do not have this heap, but they want to live beautifully ...

[kalibr]

Quote: depressant

I am already silent about the book "It is difficult to be a god" spoiled by Herman. And about the "Roadside Picnic" mutilated by Tarkovsky ...

Masters! Ihu mother ... peroxide-anhydride ...

[saygon66]

But what about the awards from the Queen of Britain to Livanov and Solomin for the best Holmes and Watson ?!

[hohol95]

VB Livanov is an honorary member of the Order of the British Empire for Service to Theater and Performing Arts!
2006 year.
In 2015 the British newspaper "Telegraph" published two lists of "20 best Holmes" and "20 best Watsons".
Livanov was absent. Solomin is in second place.
For me personally, THEY are THE BEST !!!

[Catfish]

Exactly, your guys! Well, what an Englishman would play such a thing!

[Alf]

Quote: hohol95

In 2015 the British newspaper "Telegraph" published two lists of "20 best Holmes" and "20 best Watsons".
Livanov was absent.

Why are we surprised? I wouldn't be surprised if a black one-legged transgender person is announced as the best Bond or Holmes soon.

[astra wild2]

I read it with my husband, but did not finish it. I remember the heroes: Captain Alekhine, Senior Lieutenant Tamantsev, the auto editor wrote everything: Spaniards. And Blinov, he stuttered after a shell shock

[Catfish]

So the one who has this trunk can speak, but for us ...

[hohol95]

You can go the other way!
To cut or chop off all the branches from the nearest tree and woo a la - a bare or naked trunk ... woody !!!

[Catfish]

chop off all branches

"To drag and not to let go" (c), as long as Russia exists, so much we live with this "charm".

[hohol95]

Even in the memoirs of the tsar's detective Koshko, cases were described when the possession of a weapon did not save its owner from death or serious injuries from gangs of robbers! The maximum owner of a personal "revolver" managed to make one or two shots !!!
How many died in the shootings of diplomatic couriers in the 20s defending secret letters and documents!

[Constanty]

I feel sorry for the namesake. In our country, although the authorities do not trust the citizen in this regard, the situation has improved, and after passing the bureaucratic Golgotha, you can enjoy shooting - the day after tomorrow I am going to buy another revolver and a match rifle - “shooting neccesare est” :-)

[Catfish]

Thank you namesake, I am sincerely happy for you!

[vladcub]

Great movie: "The meeting place cannot be changed"
Naturally, a woman could not distinguish between weapons.
Although after the Second World War, many women began to understand weapons. For example, my aunt could distinguish between: TT and revolver, but she called him: "Nagant". Even 60 years later, she remembered how many cartridges were in the store.

[Okolotochny]

And the ambush in Maryina Roscha? In the morning, the task force arrives at Verka the milliner, the hero of the artist Gradov takes the TT and says: "Did you even take it off the safety lock?" There was no fuse on the TT.

[Catfish]

There was no fuse on the TT.

There was not, but there was a safety cocking of the trigger.

The position of the parts of the "TT" pistol when setting the trigger to the safety cocking.

[Catfish]

Talking about trunks in general.

[vladcub]

"pistol:" Browning ", and you're right. Browning appeared in the book. It seems that Sergey Bruzhak gave Korchagin ..
Or vice versa.? I read half a century ago and don't remember. True, later I watched the series: "How the Steel Was Tempered".

[astra wild2]

Colleague Vladkub, I read Ostrovsky at school and enough time has passed.
I remember Browning appeared there twice: 1. Rita Ustinovich and Bruzhak started shooting at a tree.
2) Korchagin was going to see the girl off and did not want to remove his heavy Mauser from the wall, but took Browning Okunev out of the table.
Then at night they were stopped by bandits, the elder decided that Korchagin was a harmless depot and let him go. Korchagin took out Browning: "Damned blindness: you could aim with your left eye from eight steps." Later, when I had a PSM, I tried to shoot at a pole from a distance of 5 meters and aimed with my left eye. I did not like

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Astra wild2

Later, when I had a PSM, I tried to shoot at a pole from a distance of 5 meters and fell with my left eye

Today they teach to aim with two eyes in a frontal stance.

[saygon66]

- Except for the Central Axis Relock technique ...

[3x3zsave]

Good for those who do not suffer from astigmatism.
Happy holiday, buddy!

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Good for those who do not suffer from astigmatism.
Happy holiday, buddy!

I suffer, so I shoot with at least two hands, but in half a turn. I aim with my left eye.
Thank you Anton for your congratulations!

[astra wild2]

Vladislav, these racks are unnecessary for me. NO WEAPON, but if there was my PSM .... I was in bottles and cans, I was well controlled.
My husband, when he read: "In August 44" regretted that the school did not teach "Macedonian shooting." She interested him

[Avior]

Ostrovsky writes generally about the revolver

pulling out of it a new blued revolver

Strange.
He probably didn't know the difference

[kalibr]

Quote: vladcub

Ostrovsky was a member of the GV, he was well acquainted with weapons

I forgot!

[vladcub]

Unlikely. Rather, there are 2 explanations: a) at that time the difference in the name was not yet settled.
b) perhaps Ostrovsky remembered that Mannlicher had a revolver-type handle and he named a revolver by analogy

[kalibr]

Quote: vladcub

he named the revolver by analogy

Rather the first than the second ...

[depressant]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, thanks for the article! )))
As always, gracefully, informatively - I read, marveled at the complex course of design thought. There would be no way to immediately make the "trunks" as they are now - massive, simple and very menacing )))

[kalibr]

Quote: depressant

There would be no way to immediately make the "trunks" as they are now - massive, simple and very menacing

I just finished one more article about "bends in design ideas". Oh, they are such bends ...

[astra wild2]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, it seems, last year, I asked my colleagues: why did Gaidar call the pistol a revolver? And one of my colleagues, who understands weapons, almost answered like this: the difference in terms has not yet been settled.

[kalibr]

Quote: Astra wild2

the difference in terms has not yet been established

All of them did not care. The main thing is EXPERIENCES OF THE HERO!

[Avior]

I saw pre-revolutionary catalogs - everywhere a pistol and a revolver are distinguished, the terminology is clearly already established

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

The Mannlicher M1901 self-loading semi-automatic pistol was one of the earliest designs of a self-loading pistol and, moreover, this pistol was one of the simplest semi-automatic pistols ever created.

I always believed that a semi-automatic pistol and a self-loading pistol are one and the same.
Vyacheslav Olegovich has a definite plus - a beautiful car!

[grak33]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

I always believed that a semi-automatic pistol and a self-loading pistol are one and the same.

This is indeed the case.

[kalibr]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

The Mannlicher M1901 self-loading semi-automatic pistol was one of the earliest designs of a self-loading pistol and, moreover, this pistol was one of the simplest semi-automatic pistols ever created.

The fact that the phrase is heavy as a cobblestone, unsuccessful - you are right, but there is no mistake in it. There is no opposition anywhere. And yes, they are the same

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: kalibr

The fact that the phrase is heavy as a cobblestone, unsuccessful - you are right, but there is no mistake in it. There is no opposition anywhere. And yes, they are the same

It is not a matter of opposition, but of the essence. A century later, the terminology has become established, and at the time of the birth of the pistol, what kind of a rapid-fire animal he was (semi-automatic or self-loading). The gun school recognizes the term "self-loading" for handguns.
With artillery, on the contrary, I play with the term "automatic", "quarter automatic", "semi-automatic", etc.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

I always believed that a semi-automatic pistol and a self-loading pistol are one and the same

Well, it seems, from the beginning of the appearance of this "class of" weapons "products" were called "automatic" ... then the "stratification" began: self-loading and self-firing ...

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

This is true. Initially, automatic fire was considered self-loading, but the appearance of a machine gun brought down the theory.

[astra wild2]

Colleagues, Vyacheslav Olegovich, good evening.
I am a little disappointed: Vyacheslav Olegovich has completely abandoned his cycles: clothes, locks, perhaps again, something mysterious, clothes.

[kalibr]

There is a problem about clothing: the fact is that after Byzantium comes the Middle Ages. And it is dualistic and even tertiary in relation to fashion and architecture (fashion): Romanesque fashion, Gothic and Burgundy. And ... the problem with the illustrations. Miniatures - the sea. But choosing the right ones is very difficult. Locks ... no problem. But ... it used to be written about them, because a book was planned. But because of the covid, the publishers "shrank" and the locks were covered with an aluminum pan. So somehow it is not interesting. And to the same pistols, I had a free passage. So you need to use it !!! But very soon there will be very unusual material about ... "changes". And not one, not even two.

[Constanty]

The first army to arm itself with the Mannlicher M1901 automatic pistols was the Argentine army, which adopted this pistol in 1905 along with 7,63 mm cartridge Mannlicher Automatic 7,63x52 mm

An obvious typo - correct it.

[Chekmarev]

Yeah! Gorgeous pistol! It’s amazing why it didn’t become a legendary and widespread pistol on a par with the Browning 1900 and Colt 1911? After all, for its time it was a breakthrough pistol!

[vladcub]

Quote: Sea Cat

Do not waste time in vain, the client is on his "wave".

In fact of the matter

[kalibr]

Quote: vladcub

In fact of the matter

Word and DEED!

[Castro Ruiz]

Mannlicher М1900 is beauty.