Andreas Schwarzlose's pistol: a great weapon, but not in time

143

Pistol Schwarzlose M1898. Left view. Rockyland Arsenal Photo

And, each taking his own battle weapon,
and kindle fires on your towers,
they spent the whole night on guard.
Judith 7: 5


History firearms. VO readers are extremely interested in the materials about the Parabellum pistol, but this, however, is not surprising. They ask for a continuation of this topic, and it will be continued, but for now we will digress from it a little and tell you, dear readers, about another pistol of the late XNUMXth century, which would have looked quite modern even in the middle of the XNUMXth century ...



Pistol M1898


It will be about a rather little-known pistol М1898, which was designed by Andreas Wilhelm Schwarzlose (1867-1936), more famous for the creation of his machine gun.

First, a little from his biography ...

The future designer was born in the Berlin suburb of Charlottenburg, served in the army of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, and all his experimental and production activities were associated with work at a factory in Berlin.

Although his name is most often mentioned in connection with the Schwarzlose machine gun, which was used primarily in the Austro-Hungarian army, his earliest developments concerned self-loading pistols.

It is significant that the path from the first and very imperfect samples to a very modern self-loading pistol took him only six years (1892-1898).


The first Schwarzlose pistol of 1892 had a very specific device ...

The first self-loading pistol had a strange and inconvenient design with an under-barrel magazine, in which the cartridges were placed vertically and, moreover, bullets down! The automatics of the pistol worked according to the Mannlicher scheme, that is, when the barrel moved forward, but it was more difficult, since it was necessary to turn the cartridges when they were fed into the barrel.

Schwarztose's second self-loading pistol was patented in 1894 (German patent # 93.213; British patent # 9.490.14, May 1895), but it never seems to have gone beyond the drawing table.

He proposed a system with a long recoil of the barrel, a lever locking system and an annular lever (without trigger guard) control. Such a scheme would make it possible to cock the bolt with one hand, which was important for the cavalry. It is unknown why he gave up this pistol, or if there were others he worked on that were like him.

They failed anyway!

The Schwarzlose self-loading pistol (patent No. 93213 dated 5.08.1897/XNUMX/XNUMX) with a locking system with levers, which was clearly inspired by Hugo Borchardt's pistol, did not reach the stage of embodiment in metal. Only now, unlike Borchardt and Luger, he placed the lever mechanism on it not from above, but from the side, so that the lever that rises in the process of firing would not flicker in front of the shooter's eyes. He was loaded with five rounds from the clip. Interestingly, Schwarzlose worked on it not in Berlin, but in Suhl.

Realizing that the lever locking system is complex, and for a pistol this is far from the best option, Andreas Schwarzlose decided to use a scheme with a movable barrel and a rotating bolt (patents No. 94729 from 22.10.1897 and No. 100960 from 12.01.1899).

And so the result was an outwardly elegant and technically reliable pistol, which began to be called "Schwarzlose, model 1898" (also called "Standard Model"), which was produced in an amount of about 1 copies.

He also became his first truly successful development.


Diagram of the M1898 pistol from British patent No. 1934 1898. Pay attention to the bolt handle, exactly copied from the handle of Borchard's pistol. But then the designer, apparently, thought a little and abandoned it, replacing it with more comfortable "ears" at the rear of the shutter. You could grab them with your index and middle fingers, and also with your middle and ring fingers, which was, of course, very convenient

Unfortunately, the military did not accept the Schwarzlose pistol, believing that it was, they say, too complicated and there were many details in it.

Why did they decide that?

It is unclear, especially since he understood only three parts, and there were even fewer parts in him than in other pistols similar to him.

Well, the commercial success of the 1898 pistol model of the year was hampered by the fact that the Mauser K96 had just appeared on the market. The market simply could not digest two pistols at once, since the weapon was unusual.


Improved circuit of the 1898 model of the 1902 US patent.

And nevertheless, Schwarzlose still managed to sell some of his pistols to Boers in Africa and Russia!

The Boers bought a lot of firearms in Germany, especially from the Mauser company (but the Maxim 37 mm guns, the famous "pom-poms" - in England). True, the Schwarzlose company before the end of the war was able to sell only a small batch of Standard pistols to the Boers.

But after a couple of years, his company was able to sell several thousand pistols to Russia. Not armies the fleet, police or gendarmerie - and Russian revolutionaries. For the revolution of 1905-1907. But these pistols were confiscated on the border with Russia and handed over to the Imperial Border Guard, which thus turned out to be armed exclusively with modern weapons!

Andreas Schwarzlose's pistol: a great weapon, but not in time
Fuse control and parts of the gun М1898. P. from the book: Ezell, Edward Clinton. Handguns of the World: Military Revolvers and Self-loaders from 1870 to 1945. Marboro Books. ISBN 978-0-88029-618-2

Noticing that Luger had finished the reloading lever mechanism to a sufficient degree of perfection, Schwarzlose tried to use it in his new pistol, positioning the lever approximately the same as in the P08 Parabellum pistol. For this sample, he received patents No. 6056 of 21.03.1900/140980/27.05.1903 and No. 1901 of XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX) and under the name "Self-loading pistol MXNUMX" offered it to the Dutch army.

But the Browning pistol FN1910 interested the Dutch military more ...


M1900 pistol. Left view. Rockyland Arsenal Photos


Schematic of a Schwarzlose pistol with a lever mechanism from US patent 1905.

As a result, Andreas Schwarzlose again reworked his pistol and on February 4, 1908 received a patent No. 194921 for it, and, as it turned out, it was this seemingly unremarkable pistol that turned out to be his most successful development.

The pistol received the designation M1909, its production was started and, moreover, this pistol began to be bought.


Schematic diagram of a 1909 Schwarzlose pistol from a US patent

It again used the forward movement of the barrel due to the pressure of the powder gases and the force of the bullet cutting into the rifling.

For three years, about 8 of these pistols were produced, with the Warner Arms Corporation setting up their production in the United States, and the Davis-Warrener Arms Corp. in 000-1917, they released another 1919.

The German Kaiser Wilhelm II himself did not disdain to order such a pistol, and he received serial number 1 (although, of course, he was not the first pistol of this brand produced). Apparently, the Kaiser finished off the wounded animals from him on the hunt.


Complete disassembly of the M1909 pistol. Page from the technical manual

The production of Schwarzlose pistols was carried out by the company “A. V. Schwarzlose G. m. N. ”, founded by him together with the famous sugar manufacturer, scientist and traveler Max Scholler and Christian Kraft Hohenloe-Ehringen, who was engaged in mining business and politics.

After the defeat of Germany in the First World War, due to the demilitarization policy, the company was closed, and Andreas Schwarzlose had to work as an ordinary technical consultant. He lived in Berlin in the respectable area of ​​Charlottenburg, where he died on April 18, 1936.

Breakthrough in the military field


Well, now let's see what made this pistol so special from all others and why many gunsmiths considered (and do) consider it a real underrated breakthrough in the military field.

Look at the very first photo.

On its left side there are two levers one after the other. The far right is the shutter delay release lever, which was provided, and the shutter rose to it in its extreme rear position after all the cartridges in the magazine were used up.

To return the shutter to its place, it was necessary to lift this lever with your thumb up. It was also necessary to lift up the lever following it - the safety catch, which was very convenient.

But if you turn it forward 180 °, then the protrusions of this lever no longer interfere with the extraction of the barrel from the receiver, and then the bolt was removed in the same way.

Thus, the pistol was easily disassembled into only three parts!

As you can see, the pistol is simpler than ever, although it has a locking bolt.

Page from the technical manual. The barrel, first round, then octahedral, then round again, had protrusions in the lower part with which it entered the grooves of the receiver and could move along them back and forth. In the tide of the receiver, there was a barrel return spring under it.


M1898 pistol, right side view

Locking and unlocking the barrel of the pistol was carried out by turning the bolt and moving its four lugs behind the fixing protrusions of the nozzle on the barrel.

The number of lugs matters not only because the more there are not, the stronger the locking, but also because it determines the angle to which the shutter must be turned to lock. For example, if there are only two of them, then you need to rotate the shutter 90 °, if there are three - only 60 °. In this case, there were four of them, and the shutter rotated only 45 °.

The shutter was a tube about 25 mm in diameter. The inside of the bolt was bored to a diameter of 17,5 mm, so its weight was low. Inside was a massive drummer along with a drummer extractor and a combined shock-return spring.

A groove was made at the rear of the bolt, spiraling at the back by about 25 millimeters, and then straight by 50 millimeters, which guaranteed the necessary bolt rotation to unlock the barrel.


Disassembled M1898 pistol. The profiled groove and "ears" of the shutter are very clearly visible. Rockyland Arsenal Photos

The receiver housed all other parts of the pistol.

It is noteworthy that Schwarzlose limited himself to a minimum of springs, so there were only four of them, and all twisted: the return spring of the barrel, the magazine lock in the receiver, then the spring of the bolt and firing pin, and the rear sight spring, the last one, very tiny in size.

Among the disadvantages of many pistols with a movable bolt is the possibility of "flying" the bolt back, which, purely psychologically, often worries the shooter. In this pistol, although the bolt moves back, it cannot fly into the shooter's face under any guise.

The fact is that in the back of the receiver, the Schwarzlose pistol had a detail that looked like the letter "i" or the signal wing of a railway semaphore. Its round part entered the bolt, and the leg - into the bolt groove. When fired, the barrel and bolt assembly retreated 19 millimeters, and the barrel stopped due to the full compression of the spring underneath.

The shutter was rotated 45 ° counterclockwise. And then he could freely move back another 50 millimeters. And the barrel, driven by its compressed return spring, returned back (that is, forward) by 4,8 millimeters until it was locked with a latch.


M1898 pistol. Top view. The sight is clearly visible (its location on the movable barrel was not the best solution, but there was simply nowhere else to put it) and the "ears" for which the bolt was pulled back when reloading. Photo of Rockydend Arsenal

The ejection of the spent cartridge case occurred towards the end of the recoil cycle, when the protrusion on the bolt actuated the ejector.

During the return stroke, the shutter was set in motion by a return spring. Moving forward, the bolt picked up the next cartridge from the store, fed it into the chamber, and then again turned and locked again.

Caliber - 7,63x25 mm Mauser.
Overall length - 273 mm.
Barrel length - 163 mm.
Weight (with an empty magazine) - 785 g.
The number of grooves is 4 clockwise.
The locking method is a rotating bolt, four lugs.
Magazine capacity - 7 rounds *.

*It is believed that the German army was never interested in the M1898 pistol, despite its advanced technology, only because they believed that the minimum magazine capacity of a self-loading pistol should be at least eight rounds.

It is interesting that the pistol from the very beginning was created precisely as a pistol, and not as a pistol-carbine, like Borchardt and Mauser pistols. But the conjuncture forced the designer to attach a butt holster to him. True, he placed its mount not at the end of the handle, but came up with the idea of ​​fixing it with an emphasis on a semicircular protrusion between the handle and the receiver.


The scheme of action of the pistol М1909 from one of the patents. It is even difficult to imagine a simpler device for an automatic pistol. Moreover, since the rear part of the bolt during firing remained motionless, and the person simply did not have time to see the moving barrel, it seemed that everything in this pistol was generally motionless!

Comparison of these pistols of the late XNUMXth century:

Caliber (mm): "Standard" - 7,63x25; Borchardt - 7,65x25; Mauser - 7,63x25.
Bullet weight (grams): 5,5; 5,5-5,6; 5,0-5,95.
Bullet speed m / s: 450; 385; 443.
Bullet Energy (Joules): 550; 406; 539.

As you can see, the Schwarzlose pistol was at least not inferior in terms of its combat performance to pistols of a similar caliber that appeared at that time, but significantly surpassed them in terms of technical perfection and metal consumption of its production.

And nevertheless, nowhere, except here in Russia, he did not receive distribution, and in our country it was completely random.


Pistol М1909. Pay attention to the logo. She says that the Schwarzlose machine gun by this time had already become well recognizable. Photo by Gregg Martin Auction Company

PS


Anyone who is interested in the topic of early pistol designs can be recommended to refer to this publication: Ezell, Edward Clinton. Handguns of the World: Military Revolvers and Self-loaders from 1870 to 1945. Marboro Books. ISBN 978-0-88029-618-2.
143 comments
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  1. +12
    6 November 2021 04: 36
    Well, the morning has come, and with it joy - another article by Vyacheslav about pistols.
    I love this topic and read his articles with pleasure.))

    Well .... to kill a little someone - the photo is not loaded.
    1. +16
      6 November 2021 04: 46
      Guys, this is not Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky, this is Andreas Wilhelm Schwarzlose. smile
      1. +9
        6 November 2021 05: 31
        It's still a Schwarzlose M1908 pistol, not an M1909. Olegych got a little confused here with the dates. smile



        Complete disassembly of the M1909 pistol. Page from the technical manual

        This is the M1898 pistol.
        1. +3
          6 November 2021 05: 34
          This is the M1898 pistol.
          Hmmm ... the simplicity itself ... impressive.
          1. +14
            6 November 2021 05: 43
            The most interesting thing is that during the First World War, Schwarzlose developed a prototype of a submachine gun for the German army, it did not go into the series, but was patented by the author. The internal mechanism of the submachine gun was based on the Maxim machine gun - MG 08, but reduced and adapted to the 9 × 19 mm Parabellum cartridge.



            Cartridge 9×19 mm Parabellum.
            How it Works - Short Stroke Recoil
            Type of ammunition supply - a bunker-receiver equipped with a cassette for 80 rounds (with 10 rows of 8 rounds each)
            1. +4
              6 November 2021 05: 45
              Thanks for the photo ... hi I have never seen such a miracle of design thought ... I wonder how the soldiers themselves spoke about this weapon. what
              1. +10
                6 November 2021 05: 54
                It is unlikely that he made it to the front line. How many units of the Schwarzlose submachine gun were made is unknown, but there is evidence of the existence of at least two copies, both are located in Russia, but how they got there is not known for certain. request
            2. +8
              6 November 2021 06: 10
              Hi, Uncle Kostya!
              And what are the mass-dimensional characteristics of this wave? And then I look there also and the machine from the sapper shovel was supposed.
              1. +11
                6 November 2021 06: 21
                Hello Anton!
                Unfortunately, I did not find such data, but the fact that the device is extremely clumsy is visible and so, it clearly did not have a chance to get into service, but the attempt itself is interesting. smile

                By the way, his machine gun turned out to be quite successful.
                1. +13
                  6 November 2021 07: 06
                  A chic Saturday article and no less chic additions from comrades, what else is needed for your morning coffee! Hello everyone and thank you everyone! To be honest, I haven't even heard of Schwarzlose's pistol.
                  Regards, Vlad!
                  1. +8
                    6 November 2021 07: 13
                    what else do you need for your morning coffee!
                    30 grams of cognac
                    1. +6
                      6 November 2021 07: 32
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      what else do you need for your morning coffee!
                      30 grams of cognac

                      No, it's us in the evening. I'll light the fireplace, cook the meat, then you can eat some brandy. Cherry liqueur or red wine is better, though.
                      1. 0
                        6 November 2021 08: 02
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        I'll light the fireplace, cook the meat, then you can eat some brandy. Cherry liqueur or red wine is better, though.

                        The morning began on the collective farm.. especially. cherry liqueur for meat - for connoisseurs. I would add Madame Clicquot and beet moonshine to this delicious assorted cocktail ... as in the best houses in Paris and London.
                      2. +3
                        6 November 2021 08: 46
                        Quote: Liam

                        Morning began on the collective farm ... especially cherry infusion for meat - for fine connoisseurs. I would add Madame Clicquot and beet moonshine to this lovely assorted cocktail ... as in the best houses in Paris and London.

                        Are there collective farms in Sunny Italy? Did not know!
                        Although originally living in the Apennines is equal to London and Paris. Poorly somehow.
                        Don't worry about my cherry, I make it for myself and my family. So envy in silence.
                      3. +5
                        6 November 2021 09: 01
                        So envy silently.

                        Yes, he has already strangled himself with envy, and that is why he is vicious like a bazaar woman.
                        "One word - Romanian!" (C) laughing
                      4. 0
                        6 November 2021 09: 49
                        Don't be so nervous .. I just have an ethnographic interest in the culinary fantasies of large and small nationalities. At weekends, the site is literally filled with all sorts of original ideas about getting drunk / having a snack. And on Mondays, hangover recipes.
                        I am not surprised about cognac with kebabs and beer with taranka for a long time ... but extravagance in the form of liqueur with meat is something new for me, I even put a plus with delight.
                        Are cherries growing in your area or are you a frozen body?
                      5. +2
                        6 November 2021 10: 31
                        On the weekend, it’s kaneshna. Temp the asparagus with the Black Jack, and do not be so interested in the customs of all the wild aborigines there. This does not suit the enlightened Europe ...
                      6. +3
                        6 November 2021 11: 47
                        Quote: Mikhail3
                        On the weekend, it’s kaneshna. Temp the asparagus with the Black Jack, and do not be so interested in the customs of all the wild aborigines there. This does not suit the enlightened Europe ...

                        Black Jack for plebs, fresh asparagus - March / April, EMNIP, and it is best to wash down the Blue Label with cherry English beer with breaded therapy and fries laughing
                      7. +4
                        6 November 2021 13: 49
                        Black Jack was a popular brand (nickname - Black Death) for the extermination of unwanted babies in the Anglo-Saxon world. A spoonful of a wonderful elixir - and the baby instantly gasped, while maintaining a magnificent appearance. No traces for the then police, like in a dream he suffocated himself ...
                        Sorry. My jokes are not always easy to understand;
                      8. +2
                        6 November 2021 14: 27
                        Ah, I thought about Black Label
                      9. +4
                        6 November 2021 11: 44
                        I would add Madame Clicquot and beet moonshine to this delicious assorted cocktail

                        Greetings! hi
                        Madame Klitschko in beet moonshine et kouche than to wash down 40-year-old whiskey with Baltika))
                      10. +2
                        6 November 2021 12: 09
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Madame Klitschko in beet moonshine et kouche than to wash down 40-year-old whiskey with Baltika))

                        hi

                        Tagil city of contrasts)
                        Soon there will be no normal people on the site who eat vodka with cucumber and do not spoil coffee with gin tonics ... solid gourmets
                      11. +3
                        6 November 2021 14: 32
                        Come on, they tried to cook hominy for me at home. I ate this replica with Mexican spicy chicken wings laughing Like - if the burrito was porridge fellow
                      12. +4
                        6 November 2021 08: 02
                        ... cherry liqueur or red wine is better.

                        Something we have in the morning and the topic flooded ... laughing drinks

                        Looks like we will soon switch to women. laughing
                      13. +4
                        6 November 2021 09: 05
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        ... cherry liqueur or red wine is better.

                        Something we have in the morning and the topic flooded ... laughing drinks

                        Looks like we will soon switch to women. laughing

                        Duc is not far off the revival of medical sobering-up centers. A unique situation, that in the authorities all are categorically against their return, and the notorious "public" for!
                        Interlude of interrogation of devils from the label! It was not us, it was she who forced everything. Pokes Hryundel with a dung pitchfork in the belly and says pour Hryundel, you don't see the edges !!! laughing
                      14. +5
                        6 November 2021 08: 25
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        Red wine.

                        If you have it (not sweet!), Then cook the meat in wine ... Oh, how great it is!
                      15. +2
                        6 November 2021 08: 57
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        Red wine.

                        If you have it (not sweet!), Then cook the meat in wine ... Oh, how great it is!

                        Thanks for the advice.
                        Cabernet (homemade) sent two three-liter barrels from Krasnodar (dry). True, they also have instructions for bottling and a request to give the dates of the wine "to form a bouquet" at least until the new year before the new year. We will follow it.
                        I will make the boar meat in pomegranate juice. Already pickled.
                      16. +7
                        6 November 2021 09: 50
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        Already pickled.

                        Wonderful! But try my recipe sometime. A piece of beef is fried in oil over high heat until golden brown. Then in a cauldron, poured with red wine and simmer over low heat for 4 hours. Wine can be poured, but hot. Salt and pepper. For this meat salad: finely chop arugula, parsley, dill, cucumber (without skin), celery, a spoonful of green peas, a little chopped tomato. Portions in salad bowls. A tablespoon of olive oil and a few drops of lemon juice. You can baked potatoes separately. Put the meat on a dish and cut into slices. Well, wash it down with the same red wine. Beef can be replaced with a rabbit chopped into pieces ... For dessert ice cream is ice cream, cheap and natural. In a vase is required. Drizzle with a spoonful of brandy. You will have lunch "shpakovski".
                      17. +4
                        6 November 2021 11: 31
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But try my recipe sometime.

                        By all means Vyacheslav Olegovich, the year before last your tomatoes with olive Maslov entered with a bang!
                      18. +2
                        6 November 2021 11: 51
                        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But try my recipe sometime.

                        By all means Vyacheslav Olegovich, the year before last your tomatoes with olive Maslov entered with a bang!

                        For Mozzarella a piece of arugula, pink tomato and olive oil - the most tsimes
                      19. +2
                        6 November 2021 11: 49
                        Then in a cauldron, poured with red wine and simmer on low heat for 4 hours

                        No smell of prunes .. I don't like
                      20. +3
                        6 November 2021 13: 30
                        This is an Italian recipe. They don't put prunes.
                      21. +2
                        6 November 2021 14: 33
                        So they put a bunch of fragrant greenery
                      22. +2
                        6 November 2021 11: 48
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        Red wine.

                        If you have it (not sweet!), Then cook the meat in wine ... Oh, how great it is!

                        The bird tastes good in wine. Beef - add at the very end, provided that the meat is stewed with prunes
                      23. +3
                        6 November 2021 13: 31
                        Well, let him try. I don't eat beef this way often. Red meat is bad for you. But the rabbit in red wine is a private guest on the table for me and my daughter.
                      24. +2
                        6 November 2021 14: 34
                        Rabbit in wine - yes, I agree, in the subject
                    2. +4
                      6 November 2021 07: 49
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      what else do you need for your morning coffee!
                      30 grams of cognac

                      Nice to meet the morning with a cup of coffee with rum or bourbon! fellow
                      1. +5
                        6 November 2021 07: 52
                        Exactly! For yogurt - and we will not go to school!
                      2. +3
                        6 November 2021 09: 02
                        "And we won't let the political officer out of the bus." (C) soldier drinks
                      3. +5
                        6 November 2021 09: 25
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        "And we won't let the political officer out of the bus." (C) soldier drinks

                        Let him dance if he doesn't know how to produce an accordion. As well as on accordion does not want, two glasses, will dance and play. What quality does not answer, it will not give a damn about its quality, let him pray so that the chief of staff does not start singing. Then all of us on the bus are kapzdets. The artilleryman will not stand it and will sing along, but for him there is nothing to shout on the parade ground, or to sing one felt boot. Although the last time the general's wife sawed me for drunkenness (exercises) for three days, and I neither left nor right, only by the vibration of the decanter in the sideboard I understood the high decibel. Also a plus. Lieutenant Pour. drinks
                      4. +2
                        6 November 2021 10: 03
                        Although the last time the general's wife sawed me for drunkenness (exercises) for three days,


                        Which one is this? laughing drinks
                      5. +5
                        6 November 2021 12: 22
                        None! A story from the 95th. True, women have already been in the generals' bodies, in particular in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Justice, but not for long legs and a large bust.
                        The general's wife is the general's wife, and the commander of the third platoon was a seasoned captain who was driving this story to us seven dozen snotty cadets riding with a "potato" in a cattle truck (seats 20-25). I still remember lying on backpacks under the ceiling of the bus, envious of a sprat in a tomato and listening to stories that make you funny about life, but you will understand their depth and fullness of irony after 90 days and a quarter of a century in uniform.
                        The general's wife is the general's wife!
                      6. +3
                        6 November 2021 17: 34
                        As for my wife, I understood, it was just that Puck went to joke over the Puck. smile
                      7. +1
                        6 November 2021 08: 05
                        Quote: Nikolaevich I
                        It's a good idea to meet the morning with a cup of coffee with rum or bourbon

                  2. +3
                    6 November 2021 15: 51
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    To be honest, I haven't even heard of Schwarzlose's pistol.



                    Now you will see ...
            3. +2
              6 November 2021 11: 40
              Greetings, Constantine! hi
              I wonder how much he weighed?
              1. +2
                6 November 2021 17: 28
                Good evening, Albert!
                Anton has already asked, but, unfortunately, I could not find information on this matter. They write that his 80 cartridges in cassettes weighed less than a full Suomi disk for 50 rounds. The cartridge is both 9x19 Para.
                Where have you been for so long? drinks
                1. +1
                  6 November 2021 17: 32
                  Here I am, I only react to accusations against the Israeli military and the defenders of the luxurious (in comparison with the working people) life of the Soviet Party nomenklatura, starting with a graduate of a theological seminary in the high mountains of the Caucasus drinks
                  1. +1
                    6 November 2021 17: 54
                    ... starting with a graduate of a theological seminary in the high mountains of the Caucasus


                    Well, all the spiteful critics here have the watchful eye of the unbending Tatra! laughing drinks

                    1. -1
                      6 November 2021 18: 05
                      Hmmm, a Yugoslavian car and a denouncer of communist doctors in one bottle. ))
                      1. +3
                        6 November 2021 18: 29
                        Albert, "Tatra" was and is being produced by Czechs, but this is a trifle, and there is really one bottle. laughing

                      2. +1
                        6 November 2021 18: 56
                        So now the tatra truck is in NATO service? negative
                      3. +4
                        6 November 2021 19: 14
                        So also "tatra", as the late Soviet economist was in the service of NATO
                      4. +3
                        6 November 2021 19: 23
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        So also "tatra", as the late Soviet economist was in the service of NATO

                        Worked for the Pentagon and Langley - here's the communist doctor for you sad
                      5. +3
                        6 November 2021 19: 28
                        In fact, yes!
                      6. +3
                        6 November 2021 19: 17
                        I do not know how exactly in NATA laughing , but the Czechs are releasing all kinds of army wheeled vehicles, you can't print everything here. Here is an armored car for example.

                        VEGA multipurpose armored vehicle of the Czech company SVOS on the Tatra 815-790RK9 19 300 4x4.1R chassis. Photo 2013
                      7. 0
                        6 November 2021 19: 23
                        Armored communist doctor
                      8. +3
                        6 November 2021 19: 34
                        They pecked at a defenseless woman. laughing
                      9. +5
                        6 November 2021 19: 39
                        Cry more, with anguish. laughing
                      10. +3
                        6 November 2021 19: 45
                        Not my role. request
                      11. +3
                        6 November 2021 19: 50
                        "Men don't cry, men are upset" (C)?
                      12. +1
                        6 November 2021 19: 46
                        crying I am for both
                        "We sat on the rivers of Babylon and wept, remembering you, Socialism"
                      13. +3
                        6 November 2021 19: 56
                        Today she even had complaints about the film. How so-naked Raikin and naked Kabo! A terrible nightmare! laughing

                        The filmmaker is certainly not so-so, but compared to the current "masterpieces" ... belay
                      14. +2
                        6 November 2021 22: 01
                        Yes, the topic of boobs is revealed. Yes

                        And not only... laughing
                      15. +1
                        7 November 2021 07: 26
                        And what ?! Naked Cabo is beautiful! good fellow
                        Hi Konstantin!
                        And yet, Happy Holidays! Everyone has their own vision, but it is. All the best, my friend! hi
                      16. +1
                        7 November 2021 07: 29
                        Hello, Sergey! smile
                        Happy Holidays to you too and all my best wishes! good drinks
                      17. 0
                        6 November 2021 19: 45
                        Typical of the cowardly communist doctors negative
                      18. +2
                        6 November 2021 19: 48
                        The enemy is strong and cunning. negative
                      19. -1
                        6 November 2021 19: 52
                        Hmmm, there is such a party in the world laughing
                      20. +1
                        6 November 2021 19: 35
                        Have you forgotten the tram? T-3.
                      21. 0
                        6 November 2021 19: 46
                        Oh, welcome! hi
                        This is our socialist camp tram! fellow
                      22. +1
                        6 November 2021 19: 53
                        Hello, hello Albert! To be honest, I remember with warmth in my soul. Already with the Liazovsky bus .... brrr! Well, no comparison! wink
                      23. +1
                        6 November 2021 19: 56
                        I also prefer the tram to the bus))
                    2. +2
                      6 November 2021 19: 31
                      Oh, oh, oh! And here - "Tatra"! Yes, she already has a November benefit performance! From morning to evening on almost all topics! laughing
                      1. +1
                        6 November 2021 19: 38
                        ... she already has a November benefit performance


                        Sometimes ... wink

                      2. 0
                        6 November 2021 19: 48
                        Quote: Sea Cat



                        12,7 mm?
                      3. +1
                        6 November 2021 19: 53
                        12,7 mm?


                        KPV 14.5x115 mm - you can't take others!

                      4. 0
                        6 November 2021 19: 58
                        Yes, it's almost artillery laughing
                      5. +1
                        6 November 2021 20: 04
                        I appreciated in due time, therefore I propose. Surely what b. bully
                      6. +1
                        6 November 2021 20: 05
                        I didn't shoot anything higher than 9mm. request Saw the aftermath of 12.7mm
                      7. +3
                        7 November 2021 05: 18
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        12,7 mm?


                        KPV 14.5x115 mm - you can't take others!
                        This is how the scale is better seen.
                        kpvt on a tripod
                        It is possible and on wheels
                        KPVT 14,5mm
                        There is an opportunity to harness the donkey.
                        kpw sitting
                        And you can fight like this while sitting ...
                        soldier
                      8. +2
                        7 November 2021 06: 03
                        Yes, the top photo is impressive! I fired from the ZPU at night, and got off the installation like a drunk - the buzz is still the cooler than vodka (though before that we drank vodka, then, really too). smile drinks
                      9. +1
                        7 November 2021 07: 49
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Yes, the top photo is impressive! I fired from the ZPU at night, and got off the installation like a drunk - the buzz is still the cooler than vodka (though before that we drank vodka, then, really too). smile drinks

                        Yes, I even got a high from FN MAG, but from such a bandura ... I can imagine
                      10. +1
                        7 November 2021 07: 55
                        FN MAG ... It’s a dream to try this weapon legend, but already, it’s not destiny. request
                      11. 0
                        7 November 2021 08: 05
                        There were three blades of grass not far from me (between me and the target) - cut it off! This is a super car
                      12. +1
                        7 November 2021 08: 18
                        For nothing, perhaps half of the world runs with him. smile
                      13. 0
                        7 November 2021 07: 45
                        This is a button accordion! Thanks for the photos hi
                      14. 0
                        7 November 2021 07: 34
                        Well, we are all - "For humanism, for the cause of peace ....".

                        Therefore, not so radical. laughing
                      15. +1
                        7 November 2021 07: 57
                        "Boys are engaged in humanism in childhood." (C) laughing
                      16. 0
                        7 November 2021 08: 19
                        Not at all! laughing


                        Both the author and the performer, both. winkThree! Also the wife of the author-co-author.
                      17. +4
                        6 November 2021 19: 42
                        Tomorrow the benefit will be transformed into an orgy.
                      18. 0
                        6 November 2021 19: 49
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Tomorrow the benefit will be transformed into an orgy.

                        To Orgia Kunislavovna Straponova.
                      19. +2
                        6 November 2021 19: 47
                        Quote: Phil77
                        Oh, oh, oh! And here - "Tatra"! Yes, she already has a November benefit performance! From morning to evening on almost all topics! laughing

                        Tomorrow is the 94th anniversary of the Great October Socialist Revolution drinks
                      20. +4
                        6 November 2021 20: 00
                        Exactly! Sabbath time. Soviet Halloween.
                      21. +2
                        6 November 2021 20: 02
                        Good date - they gave the hereditary aristocracy on the forehead, the rules, then they created a new, but - small
                      22. +5
                        6 November 2021 20: 20
                        Sabbath time

                      23. -1
                        7 November 2021 07: 51
                        Quote: Phil77
                        Oh, oh, oh! And here - "Tatra"! Yes, she already has a November benefit performance! From morning to evening on almost all topics! laughing

                        There is never enough good Communist Doctor
                2. +2
                  6 November 2021 18: 14
                  "Suomi" has a box magazine for 50 rounds, and a disc - for 70, and this disc weighed more than a kilogram when unloaded.
                  1. +2
                    6 November 2021 18: 21
                    Finnish replica of PPSh, if I'm not mistaken?
                    1. +2
                      6 November 2021 18: 46
                      No, just a similar wave
                      1. +2
                        6 November 2021 19: 07
                        "Suomi" was put into service in 1931, PPSh-40, in the corresponding.
                    2. +1
                      6 November 2021 19: 31
                      Exactly the opposite. laughing
                  2. +2
                    6 November 2021 18: 25
                    You are absolutely right, I have a typo. smile request
                    1. +3
                      6 November 2021 18: 49
                      Yes, everything is fine, Uncle Kostya!
                      I, it happens in the Middle Ages, too, mow, alas ...
                      1. +3
                        6 November 2021 19: 11
                        By the way, on the M - a line, in a trench we somehow found a disc from "Suomi" for 40 rounds together with packs for the Finnish three-line. The disc was full, in excellent safety and only 3 or 4 upper cartridges were oxidized, everything was covered with sand , at the corner of the trench and the passage of the message. The cartridges were made by Geco. I read somewhere that such a disk is called "early", but I'm not sure of the correctness.

                        Photo from the network, I could not find a more recent one.
                        Here is some information on disks and stores:
                        Stores of several types - box magazine for 20 rounds, 35 rounds; a disk magazine for 40 rounds, developed directly by Lahti, and a disk magazine for 70 rounds designed by Koskinen, which became the prototype of stores for Soviet PPD and PPSh. Also used were four-row 50-round box magazines developed in Sweden. In the 1950s, 36-round box magazines were produced from the Swedish Carl Gustaf M / 45 submachine gun, which fit both models. [/ quote]
      2. +6
        6 November 2021 07: 45
        Quote: Sea Cat
        this is not Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky, this is Andreas Wilhelm Schwarzlose

        Shaw? belay Vyacheslav Shpakovsky changed his full name. ? request Sho you say! And the heart stopped beating! recourse
        1. +6
          6 November 2021 08: 00
          Hang on, buddy, and take care of the motor! smile drinks
      3. 0
        6 November 2021 22: 58
        Oh, is that Shpakovsky?
    2. +9
      6 November 2021 07: 25
      Let me join your words.
      Unfortunately, articles that do not cause internecine disputes or skepticism about the materials described by the author have not become frequent.
      Pay attention - there are no such claims to the articles of Vyacheslav Olegovich, but there are words of gratitude even from those readers who broke spears in neighboring "branches" and argued to the point of making comments)
      1. +5
        6 November 2021 09: 00
        Alas Igor, it all depends on people and who comes here for what.
        1. +9
          6 November 2021 09: 22
          About six years ago I discovered VO as a source of wonderful articles on technology and the history of military technology. Now, you can see for yourself - there are few of them, but more often there are "discussions" about projects and prototypes ...
  2. +5
    6 November 2021 05: 09
    I wonder how to load the first Schwarzlose pistol in combat conditions ... not clear. what
    The location of the cartridges is very original ... but not practical ... why such quirks?
    1. +8
      6 November 2021 07: 00
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      The location of the cartridges is very original ... but not practical ... why such quirks?

      Patent bypass for loading a clip through the shutter!
  3. +4
    6 November 2021 05: 55
    Unfortunately, the military did not accept the Schwarzlose pistol, believing that it was, they say, too complicated and there were many details in it.

    Why did they decide that?

    It is unclear, especially since he understood only three parts, and there were even fewer parts in him than in other pistols similar to him.

    Apparently, the military was frightened by the magazine loading of the pistol, because the magazine is a rather complex part with a high-quality steel spring. For example, the Mauser C96 was charged with a clip, which was much cheaper. You can also take the Lee-Enfield rifle as an example, which had a detachable magazine for 10 rounds, but the rifle was loaded from above with clips, the British generals, adopting the Lee-Enfield rifle, considered magazine loading to be unacceptably wasteful.
  4. +4
    6 November 2021 07: 41
    Vyacheslav, as always, thanks for the article, interesting! hi I am now interested in such a factor as the resistance of the pistol to falling, because often the simplicity of the design played a cruel joke on the weapon - dropped it, and it then wedged, or even fell apart into parts. After all, the weapon passed such tests for falling, for dust resistance ???
    1. +6
      6 November 2021 08: 27
      Quote: Thrifty
      After all, the weapon passed such tests for falling, for dust resistance ???

      There was a "dust bag" where it was covered with furs (!), Dropped from 3 meters onto a stone floor ... Throwed against the wall ... because of the wall, but it was not like that everywhere.
      1. +1
        6 November 2021 08: 39
        Vyacheslav, and developing the topic, I will ask Russia while the weapon was being tested before it was put into service? Was there a limit on shooting per barrel for accuracy, accuracy and dispersion over distances? Also, climate control, for susceptibility to corrosion, or deformation during long shooting ???
        1. +5
          6 November 2021 09: 53
          Quote: Thrifty
          and Russia, while the weapon was being tested before it was put into service? Was there a limit on shooting per barrel for accuracy, accuracy and dispersion over distances? Also, climate control, for susceptibility to corrosion, or deformation during prolonged shooting ???

          All this happened in Russia. The tsarist generals, for all their "inertia", followed all these tests with extraordinary care. Why did the luger not work with us, it began to seize after the "dusty bag". Therefore, we may not have had the best weapons in the world, but the most reliable. You have to look for shooting limits, I don't remember offhand ...
  5. +7
    6 November 2021 11: 17
    Among the disadvantages of many pistols with a movable bolt is the possibility of "flying" the bolt back, which, purely psychologically, often worries the shooter. In this pistol, although the bolt moves back, it cannot fly into the shooter's face under any guise.

    The fact is that in the back of the receiver, the Schwarzlose pistol had a detail that looked like the letter "i" or the signal wing of a railway semaphore. Its round part entered the bolt, and the leg - into the bolt groove. When fired, the barrel and bolt assembly retreated 19 millimeters, and the barrel stopped due to the full compression of the spring underneath.

    Here you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, are mistaken. I illustrated this point a little.

    "Part that looks like the letter" i ", the stop ring holding the bolt is marked with" 1. "The red line is where this part fits on the gun frame. Part" 2 "is the pin that holds the snap ring in the frame. That is, the reliability of the entire structure is determined by a pin with a diameter of 2 mm, and the pin can be cut off or fall out if the seat density has decreased due to long-term use.
    1. +4
      6 November 2021 13: 34
      Didn't see this scheme. Thought the thrust washer was part of the frame. It would be logical, by the way. I would do just that! Why Schwarzlose made this part removable is unclear.
      1. +4
        6 November 2021 14: 03
        Why Schwarzlose made this part removable is unclear.

        Firstly, if this detail were part of the frame, it would greatly complicate the already difficult technology of its manufacture. Secondly, it would not radically affect the situation. The critical section would be in place, the ring-post. The slightest undercut during milling and we already have a stress concentrator and a potential place of destruction.
        1. 0
          6 November 2021 19: 34
          Quote: Undecim
          The slightest undercut during milling and we already have a stress concentrator and a potential place of destruction.

          Make it a little thicker and good. But technologically, yes, it would make it more complicated.
          1. +3
            6 November 2021 19: 54
            For a stress concentrator, and even with a cyclic nature of loads, the thickness does not matter.
            1. +2
              6 November 2021 19: 55
              Quote: Undecim
              and even with a cyclical nature of the loads, the thickness does not play a role.

              I did not know such subtleties!
              1. +3
                6 November 2021 19: 58
                It would be surprising if the Faculty of History studied resistance to materials.
                1. +1
                  6 November 2021 20: 59
                  Quote: Undecim
                  It would be surprising if the Faculty of History studied resistance to materials.

                  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                  1. +4
                    6 November 2021 21: 02
                    But it was considered impossible to learn sopromat without mastering the history of the CPSU!
  6. +3
    6 November 2021 11: 25
    Many thanks to the author for Saturday's report, pleasantly skimmed over an interesting and little-known design. Of course, with a cup of coffee in hand)))
  7. Lad
    +1
    6 November 2021 12: 48
    PS

    Anyone who is interested in the topic of early pistol designs can be recommended to refer to this publication: Ezell, Edward Clinton. Handguns of the World: Military Revolvers and Self-loaders from 1870 to 1945. Marboro Books. ISBN 978-0-88029-618-2.

    Thanks for the recommendation. Can't you recommend something that is freely available on the Internet and, if possible, in Russian for a more detailed description of pistols to Schwarzlose? Otherwise, not everyone will buy the book. And the article does not understand the work of mechanisms in detail.
    1. +4
      6 November 2021 13: 36
      Quote: Lad
      Russian

      Well, where did it come from? Who will do this with us?
  8. +1
    6 November 2021 13: 02
    As always, a very interesting article. Thanks!
    Particularly interesting are the "throwing" of the designer from the more progressive locking by turning to the levers. Is that what prompted him?
    The author, will there be an article about the transition from P08 to P38? Well with the design comparison, of course?
    And it would also be interesting to read about the origin and construct of the famous TT and the no less famous PM. Especially in comparison with their prototypes. wink
    1. +3
      6 November 2021 13: 37
      Quote: KSVK
      about the transition from P08 to P38?

      Of course. And the entire Browning line, including the TT predecessor. And to write about PM ... I don't know. Until the soul lies. Written-rewritten!

      What prompted you? Well, there is such a trait in people: you did well, but I will do it better. It doesn't always work out!
  9. +2
    6 November 2021 13: 11
    Quote: Undecim
    That is, the reliability of the entire structure is determined by a pin with a diameter of 2 mm. And the pin can be cut off, or fall out if the seat density has decreased due to prolonged use. And "hello" the shutter in the forehead.

    Well, after all, this pin could hardly fall out. In the same place, the spring constantly abuts against it. Well, then it's still not a free heavy shutter. The kinematics are completely different.
  10. +1
    6 November 2021 13: 50
    Quote: kalibr

    Of course. And the entire Browning line, including the TT predecessor.

    good We are waiting!
    Quote: kalibr

    And to write about PM ... I don't know. Until the soul lies. Written-rewritten!

    Well then, maybe about a prototype? I'm talking about PPK? winked
    1. +1
      6 November 2021 19: 36
      Quote: KSVK
      PPK?

      There will be an ALL line of Walters: model1,2, .. 7 ... PPK, ..
  11. 0
    6 November 2021 13: 58
    Quote: Sea Cat
    The most interesting thing is that during the First World War, Schwarzlose developed a prototype of a submachine gun for the German army, it did not go into the series, but was patented by the author. The internal mechanism of the submachine gun was based on the Maxim machine gun - MG 08, but reduced and adapted to the 9 × 19 mm Parabellum cartridge.



    Cartridge 9×19 mm Parabellum.
    How it Works - Short Stroke Recoil
    Type of ammunition supply - a bunker-receiver equipped with a cassette for 80 rounds (with 10 rows of 8 rounds each)

    Aesthetics and ergonomics are not the strongest aspects of this designer, judging by its almost all (it looks like pretense or style) samples of weapons, in my opinion, are somewhat ugly compared to weapons of other designers. Apparently functionality was in the first place, nevertheless, attention should also be paid to the marketing (presentation) of products. Although his most popular product, the Schwarzlose machine gun, looked ergonomic and modern for its time.
  12. Lad
    0
    6 November 2021 14: 01
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Lad
    Russian

    Well, where did it come from? Who will do this with us?

    Yes it is clear. Here and here they talk more about PM and TT, which seem to be no sideways to this topic, but no one remembered the same Hino-Komuro.

    I was interested in the detailed kinematics of the cartridge feed when the barrel moving forward. There were also other pistols with this scheme. All of them did not take root. Although at first glance, apart from the shortcomings, the scheme also has advantages.

    For example, now, especially in the category of pocket pistols, they are trying very hard to increase the ratio of barrel length to total pistol length. This allows for the same performance characteristics to make a weapon of shorter length. And with a scheme with a movable barrel, it would be possible to make the shortest possible weapon with the same barrel length.
    1. 0
      6 November 2021 19: 37
      Quote: Lad
      Nobody remembered Hino-Komuro.

      I will find good photos - there will be about him too.
    2. 0
      8 November 2021 12: 24
      Quote: Lad
      And with a scheme with a movable barrel, it would be possible to make the shortest possible weapon with the same barrel length.


      The moving barrel scheme is characterized by a very sharp recoil. This is the main reason why it did not take root.
      1. Lad
        0
        9 November 2021 20: 41
        Well, the word "very" is more of an emotional rather than a technical category. Somehow they were shooting from them. Although, of course, the recoil is stronger. But this is for a shooting range, where they shoot for fun and every day, the softest possible recoil is required. And there the weight and size does not play any role at all - in the shooting range the pistol does not have to be carried far.

        And when it comes to self-defense, then the weapon must be carried with you daily for many years and in your entire life, perhaps you will have to use it only once. And even then you will need to shoot one or several times maximum. It will be possible to be patient. But the weapon will be small, invisible and light, which is very important.
        1. 0
          10 November 2021 03: 19
          "Very" - this is the Beetle.

          Literally, about the 1908 model. he has this:
          "neither in Europe, nor in America, Schwarzlose pistols received recognition, since they had a number of shortcomings - they had a recoil very sharp and, in addition, the shooter, when fired, received a perceptible blow to the index finger at the moment the barrel reached its extreme forward position. "

          Roughly the same can be found from other authors, including imported ones.

          And if objectively, purely technically, the average recoil force applied to the shooter's hand, when compared with a movable bolt, all other things being equal, increases approximately in the ratio of the time of movement of the bolt to the time of the shot. And this is at times. And it cannot be cured. Newton's 2nd law, however. Well, the second joint is also not sugar. If you treat, you will have to complicate the design.

          In the presence of some parameters of the weapon, the impact on the shooter's hand can be calculated more accurately, but there is not much sense in this. Most tellingly, copycats have bypassed this model. Most likely, it is because of congenital jambs. Because, at first glance, the model is interesting. And the reason for the inattention of imitators lies on the surface. It will be much more difficult to make a quick series of aimed shots from such a weapon than from a pistol with a movable bolt. All other things being equal, essno. Actually, because of this, the whole meaning of an automatic pistol is lost. Then a revolver is better. At least he won't hit the finger. Better yet, a modern compact with a short barrel travel.
  13. 0
    7 November 2021 09: 53
    Quote: kalibr
    The ejection of the spent cartridge case occurred towards the end of the recoil cycle, when the protrusion on the bolt actuated the ejector.

    Vyacheslav Olegovich, the extractor is still removing the sleeve, not the ejector.
  14. 0
    7 November 2021 12: 37
    Schwarzlose М1909 is a real masterpiece.