US bombers challenge the Russian Navy. Is our fleet ready to answer it?

158

28.10.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX Forbes (USA): US Air Force bombers are working out a new main task - to sink Russian ships ( link):

In wartime, the Black Sea will turn into a shooting gallery. And B-1 bombers can be the best shooters in it. In 2017, the B-1 was the first aircraft of the US Air Force to be converted to a new stealth long-range anti-ship missile (LRASM) - with a range of 480 kilometers with a high-tech multi-mode homing head (GOS). Each B-3 can carry 1 of these missiles, costing $ 24 million. A pair of B-1s can release across the Baltic the fleet Russia 48 LRASM. This may be enough to sink an entire fleet in one go and eliminate the main threat to the ships of the United States and its allies in the region.


This publication caused a violent reaction in our media. So, in TASS, with subsequent rebukes, including retired admirals, for example:



Ships of the Baltic and Black Sea fleets of Russia are reliably protected from enemy missile attacks by air defense systems, RIA said News Commander of the Black Sea Fleet (1998-2002) Admiral Vladimir Komoedov.

Is this true?

No, not so.

On the one hand, with the combat readiness, and simply with the presence of the accumulated ammunition load of the latest anti-ship missiles LRASM, the situation in the US Navy is, to put it mildly, not easy.

On the other hand, the old mass "Harpoons" are enough for our fleet today.

Basic threat models


The specificity of the air defense of the Navy since the end of the 70s of the last century - targets with a very low RCS, operating at often extremely low altitudes.

Another acute problem is a sharp increase in the number of enemy guided weapons used due to the massive use of small-sized UAB SDBs. When providing air defense of valuable objects, there is a strict condition "to shoot down everything", and here an extremely acute issue is the elimination of "missing a target" during the simultaneous combat operation of several complexes (several ships with several air defense systems).

Since the mid-70s, a small-sized anti-ship missile "Harpoon", which had an RCS of about 0,1 m, a speed of 0,9 M and a flight altitude on the way to the target of 2-3 m and less, has become the "typical target" of the air defense of the Navy since the mid-141s. Its standard Mk2 launcher ensured the anti-ship missile descent rate of less than 4 s, that is, the ability to form a 8–6 missile salvo with a temporal range of 10–XNUMX s (called “shashlik” in professional rocketry slang).

"Harpoon" was also a regular weapons sea aviation, in this case had a lower "rate of fire" from the aircraft suspension, but the ability to effectively mass in the spatial and temporal "impact window" of a large number of anti-ship missiles from the corresponding number of carriers. In addition, one of the specific features of the air strikes was "star raids", with the provision of a simultaneous approach of the PRR HARM, taking into account the approach "from above" was a significantly simpler target, despite the formally higher speed. At the same time, the typical tactics of the US Navy was the delivery of combined strikes of anti-ship missiles and anti-missile defense systems.

Speaking about the possibility of breaking through the air defense systems of the USSR Navy ships in the late 80s, it is necessary to note the significantly different capabilities of ships and their complexes in repelling strikes of different structure. For example, the Hurricane air defense missile system of the Project 956 destroyers provided all-round air defense (effective against the "star raid"), however, due to the use of missiles with GOS (their random target distribution to salvo missiles), it did not ensure reliable shelling of all anti-ship missiles.

SAM "Dagger" BOD project 1155 were very effective against the "shashlik" (the high channel of the air defense system ensured the shelling of all, and the excellent firing radar - reliable guidance of the missile defense system precisely on the assigned targets and control of their defeat), but had problems with reflecting the "star raid" ( due to the limited (60x60) sector of the firing radar).

Today, the US Navy is moving to new stealth anti-ship missiles, including LRASM operational range, providing a simultaneous approach to the target (with the possibility of forming, including a "near-zero" temporary range of a salvo).

An essential feature of western anti-ship airborne weapons is its emphasis on stealth (and, accordingly, the subsonic speed of weapons). At the same time, the EPR of the new anti-ship missiles of the US Navy (LRASM and NSM) has decreased by about an order of magnitude from the "Harpoon" (to values ​​of just over 0,01 mXNUMX from the nose).


RCC LRASM

At the same time, not everything on the subject of new anti-ship missiles in the US Navy is going well.

The statements about the "single promising anti-ship missile" LRASM are slowly disappearing, perhaps because of its cost - the accumulation of the necessary ammunition at a product cost of about $ 3 million becomes, to put it mildly, a non-trivial task (and Congress has "questions"). De facto, the US Navy is more and more focused on the new Norwegian anti-ship missile NSM with slightly reduced capabilities than the LRASM, but at a lower cost. And this anti-ship missile also has a very low ESR, which also makes it a very difficult target to hit.


ASM NSM

Despite the decision of the US Navy to develop a promising anti-ship missile system LRASM exclusively as a subsonic one (the development of a high-speed version of anti-ship missiles in the promising anti-ship missile program was discontinued in the early 2010s), the problem of high-speed anti-ship missiles for air defense of domestic ships is relevant due to the use of the U.S. Navy (and a number of others countries) as anti-ship missiles of high-speed missiles.

In addition, there is a separate problem - the Japanese one.

If the United States and its friendly countries rely on subsonic stealth anti-ship missiles, then Japan for its aviation has developed and adopted a supersonic three-speed anti-ship missile system ASM-3, which is a standard anti-ship weapon of the Air Force of the Japanese Self-Defense Forces, in particular, Mitsubishi F-2 multirole fighters.


Fighter Mitsubishi F-2 with ASM-3 anti-ship missiles

Fleet's Leaky Umbrella


The issues and problems of the air defense of the fleet have already been considered many times, it can be noted that the article that caused the greatest reaction Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing.

The data indicated on the information field of the sight clearly indicate the flight altitude of the RM-15 target missile at the moment of its destruction (at a distance of 9 km) of about ... 100 m (70–120, according to various estimates).
Sorry, but real anti-ship missiles (anti-ship missiles) fly at completely different heights! Moreover, at the terminal section, the height of their flight can be almost 1,5 meters above the crests of the waves!


... calling things by their proper names, the result of the firing of the "Thundering" would not be at all bad for another "Thundering" - ... BOD project 57 (1960-1991) with the "Volna" air defense missile system. RM-15 at 100 meters, just his target.

In the same place, on the artillery fire of the newest corvette "Aldar Tsidenzhapov" from the MF-RLK "Zaslon":

... there are good reasons to believe that the real results of the firing of "Aldar Tsidenzhapov" at the RM-120 were very far from the statements of DIMK.

To the question whether "Aldar" "knocked down" the target or not, there was a public response (obviously, from a directly involved person), link:

The rocket flew about XX kilometers after being hit by the first shell. Both Ak-190 and Ak-630 worked on it. RM did not reach the line of self-destruction of the XX km. By the way, there is no assessment in PAS - he did not knock him down.

I emphasize that this is written by the same insider, who previously published exclusive details of tests of previous corvettes ( link):

... The A-190 cannon (the talk of the town in the period under discussion), after changing the manufacturer, drove the target missile into the water 7 km, before entering the AK-630 affected area. At the same time, Fourke (will we remember?) Observed the target from the moment of launch until the moment of destruction. At sea targets, the artillery fired so accurately that only half of the planned ammunition was used up (in order to preserve the shields) ... Kolomna diesel engines were tested at maximum moves and reverse without any restrictions. It was not without problems - at the ZHI there was a failure of the reverse clutch.

So, the target rocket, at which the artillery of "Aldar Tsydenzhapov" fired, successfully passed both the 100-mm gun mount A-190-01 and AK-630M-01 under the control of the MFRLK "Zaslon", and, having already flown in the immediate vicinity of the ship , fell into the water at a distance of well over ten kilometers!

Under the pretext that she "did not reach the line of self-destruction", the shooting was "credited".

However, who and on what basis decided that she fell due to hits?

Today, target missiles are falling en masse in our country because of old age! The statement about "hitting the first shell" is, to put it mildly, slyness, because after 30-mm (and even more so 100-mm) shells hit, low-flying missiles do not fly several tens of kilometers (water is too close).

Plus, given the enemy's actual anti-ship missile system, it would definitely have been on board the Aldar Tsydezhapov, despite the fire of both 100-mm and 30-mm artillery mounts. Let me emphasize that the cause of the problems is not the cannon, but the MF-RLK "Zaslon"!

Those. we have a systematic forgery of the Navy with the testing of new types of weapons from individual "highly respected developers"! There is no objective evidence that the RM-120 Tsydenzhapova fell from real hits. Corvette "Thundering" did not check at all (this was deliberately excluded from the test program) artillery against air targets! Which, to put it mildly, is incompatible with the current regulatory documents and directly contradicts the legislation.

The official responses of the Navy on this situation are remarkable, there are two of them, two different high-ranking officials of the Navy (one response after a corresponding request from the Main Air Force, the second - from the presidential administration):


And in them the wildest thing is not even that in favor of the MF-RLK "Zaslon" "Thundering" and "Tsydenzhapov" for some reason, the previously performed firing of the "Redut" air defense missile system from under completely different means (for example, the artillery radar "Puma" , which was thrown out of the new corvettes).

And not even that there is actually no fulfillment of the requirements of the TTZ (more on that below), and this, in an amicable way, had to have both legal and financial consequences for the perpetrators! However, the Navy (and the Ministry of Defense), receiving ships unfit for battle, for some reason is "very kind" to them.

And not even a denial of the author's data from official sources (analysis of the official video of the Ministry of Defense), but the fact that the two chiefs of the Navy, to put it mildly, declare a lie in this kind of "cross-examination".

So: 03.02.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX - "The complexes have successfully completed all types of tests in 2020", and 03.03.2021 - "Artillery fire on the" Thundering "corvette was planned against modern target missiles".

So “completed successfully in 2020” or was it “planned in 2021”?

The answer is obvious, such firing at the "Thundering", contrary to the requirements of the current legislation, simply was not carried out (if there were real possibilities of their organization - on the same "Saman").

Corvette "Thundering" was adopted by the Navy, practically incapable of combat, with gross violations of the current legislation. The artillery fire of the corvette "Aldar Tsydenzhapov" was actually thwarted. There are no objective facts of shooting down the target, and taking into account the very long distance and flight after the flight of the ship, its fall is probably due simply to old age.

A tip for the special prosecutor's office working on this topic now: the key issue for the "Barrier" is not even a disruption of the R&D deadlines, namely, failure to comply with a number of TTZ requirements, up to a conscious avoidance of their mandatory (in accordance with GOST) presentation during the relevant tests. Here, of course, a question arises to the "surprisingly kind" (to "Barrier") "representatives of the customer" and the developers of the corresponding programs and test methods.

By the way, "a wonderful question" - were the "planned" firing of "Thundering" artillery at air targets in 2021 carried out at all?

Or the creative managers from the Navy "have already planned their postponement as early as 2022"?

Moreover, there was time to take part in the main naval parade of "Thundering" ...

The insider's excuses for the Aldar artillery fire are interesting, link:

The A-190 is not the "main air defense weapon", which is why the main tests for it are shooting at the maximum range at a moving sea target, shooting in all extremely interesting ways at coastal targets, in which this gun has no equal.
By firing at RM, the ship's air defense circuit is checked, the operation of all means of lighting the air situation, RTR and electronic warfare, the ship's BIUS. During these firing, the A-190 on the corvette was not a beneficiary ... In the absence of manufactured products, UDRs worked in the cells ...

What can I say?

The fact that air defense is one of the main tasks for medium-caliber artillery became clear back in the 30s of the last century, and World War II convincingly confirmed this. However, it turns out that in the XNUMXst century we still have “specialists” who deny this!

Moreover, the conduct of artillery fire at such a target as the RM-120 (I emphasize that the missile defense system that flew in the immediate vicinity of the Aldar Tsydenzhapov corvette without the standard ammunition load (only with their electronic simulators - UDR) was a real prerequisite for a repetition of the disaster with the Musson MRK (the likelihood of getting on board a missile damaged by artillery and not being able to finish off its missiles due to their absence).

Actually, the very fact that there is no SAM in the ammunition load during firing speaks of an obviously abnormal situation with ensuring the accumulation of the necessary ammunition load for the new 9M96 missiles (which is not surprising, given their very high cost).

Moreover, these specialists "for some reason" turn out to be "extremely kind" to very careless industrial organizations and in every possible way justify their inability to present the given (in the TTZ and the State Contract), link:

… When you buy a car, how many test drives do you do? There are mathematicians who write methods for receiving from the AME industry.

Meekly is an illiterate lie. Which, however, is very fond of some negligent representatives of industry and our so-called "military science", who are trying to cover up failures and shortcomings with cunning methods of testing methods (that is, in fact, to hide the shortcomings).

From the article Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing:

State tests are, first of all, confirmation of the fulfillment of the specified requirements of the TTZ (tactical and technical assignment).

That is, the test program and methodology is legally a "confirmation of TTZ points". There is even such a document as a "table of implementation of TTZ items": item, date (test), result.

So where is all this on the corvettes with the "Zaslon" (MF-RLK)?

I emphasize once again - this is not only common sense and experience, these are the requirements of GOST and current legislation! And what is the reason for the categorical reluctance of senior officials of the Navy and the Ministry of Defense to carry it out?

After all, "everything is simple", is "Barrier" ready?

Supposedly ready.

So show (confirm requirements)! “Oh, we planned it later,” ... but contracts must be made for ships (according to the “gold price tag”), and must also be established. Even if it directly contradicts the current legislation (taking into account the disruption and failure to conduct the prescribed artillery fire, there are no grounds for assigning the letter "O1" to the MF-RLK series ").

Next, the insider ( link):

The 630 is in trouble with the Puma, which in a certain sense is docked by the mast.

No, this is not “the problem of the 630 with the Puma”, this is a well-known critical flaw of corvettes, known and discussed on public resources since 2006 - “naked stern”, where our ships not only cannot shoot properly, but even corny detect targets ("Blind sector in the stern")! And again "no one is to blame"!

Moreover, the closure of this "blind sector" in the MF-RLK is declared as one of the "advantages" of the "Barrier" (despite the fact that an order of magnitude cheaper and more effective solution was to install a separate radar firing in the stern).

The new one (and "gold" for the price), still not working in accordance with the requirements of the MF-RLK, obviously does not provide a solution to the long-standing problem of small-caliber artillery in our corvettes.

From the article "On the effectiveness of naval artillery installations in repelling anti-ship missiles" A. V. Zhukov (chief designer of the ZRAK "Pantsir-M"):

... the answer to the question about the low efficiency of the existing domestic artillery complex AK-630M is in a completely different plane ... In the AK-630M complex, the quality measurement system, gun mount and fire control system MR-123 MTK 201 are made in the form of four independent posts and are located on different landing places ... Separate placement of the gun mount and control system in the AK-630M leads to large firing errors due to the inability to take into account the deformation of the ship's hull and inaccuracies in the parallax correction between the posts. Shooting errors reach 6 mrad instead of 2 mrad in the "Goalkeeper" complex.
... The multi-point scheme is sometimes offered in domestic complexing systems. Obviously, the effectiveness of artillery fire in this case will be low, which will discredit not only the caliber of shells, but also the benefits of gun mounts in the short-range air defense system ...

Are we doing anything to correct this shortcoming of the most massive means of the "close line" of the Navy's air defense (AK-630M)?

It'S Nothing!

Although the solution is elementary, simple and relatively cheap (apparently, this is precisely the point) - a separate small-sized firing radar on the same foundation with the AK-630M (with a quick modernization of all ships of the Navy).

And again "no one is guilty" ...

Shooting "Redoubt" (link):

333 and 339 successfully worked off debts - 96 air defense. The second one is just brilliant.

339 is "Aldar Tsydezhapov". Let me emphasize, “just brilliantly” - it is quite possible that the 9M96 SAM with an active radar seeker works very well and “knocks down” targets reliably. However, there are questions.

Quote (link):

"Loud", worked out "debts" on the air defense system.


There is little data, but some conclusions can be drawn.

first, an unconditional plus of shooting with the "Redoubt" of "Loud" is that no one deliberately "lifted" the target to a higher trajectory (as it was for the "Thundering" with the MF-RLK). With the clarification that the altitude of the Malakhit anti-ship missile (RM-120) is significantly higher than the enemy anti-ship missile (as well as its radar signature).

Second, an extremely bad minus is the relatively short range of destruction of the missile target missiles, it is obvious that it is noticeably less than ten kilometers. For a missile defense system, which flies more than 4 times farther, this is, to put it mildly, very bad, and it is clear that it is not the rocket that is to blame for this, but the extremely unsuccessful air defense circuit of our corvettes, which do not have means of correcting missiles.

Accordingly, again an insider, link:

ranges of 96 and A-190 are comparable.

Despite the fact that in reality they differ by about 2 times in great favor for the 9M96 SAM!

Once again - the air defense system on our corvettes is simply "stabbed" (the capabilities of the excellent 9M96 air defense missile system are used in the Redut air defense system by no more than a third of the potential ones)! And here the "customer's position" (or rather, its complete absence) is simply amazing, both for the Navy and the Ministry of Defense in ignoring one of the key problems of the air defense of corvettes! Despite the fact that on specialized forums it was "written and shouted" since 2006!

Probably, some of the responsible officials should finally answer for this indecency: "with a party card and an armchair"?

Again, Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing:

The following must be said. State tests are, first of all, confirmation of the fulfillment of the specified requirements of the TTZ (tactical and technical assignment).
The way the IBMK "confirmed" them (in quotation marks) clearly says that the RM-15 with the GOS radar (and the EPR is more than an order of magnitude larger than the EPR of real targets) was specially "lifted" to a hundred-meter flight altitude and was shot down by only 9 km. ! ... In fact, we have a target defeat at 9 km! Forgive me, but even the Sosny missile defense system works at such ranges (an order of magnitude cheaper than the gold 9M96)!
Moreover, such "results" (in quotation marks) of the "promising super-radar of the Navy" turn out to be rather pale even against the background of firing by the land-based air defense system "Tor-2MKM" on the frigate "Admiral Grigorovich", despite the large number of shortcomings in the organization of these firing "Torah "And the preparation of equipment for them.
What (and who - their creators) really worked at "5+" on these firing - SAMs 9M96.

The air defense problems of the corvettes are associated with both long-standing "strange decisions" (first of all, the former chief gunman of "Almaz", Lysenko, there are a lot of questions to this man, and I believe that a number of guilty persons "exhaled" when he recently (being employee of JSC "Zaslon") has passed away (and, accordingly, will no longer be able to testify), and with the "Zaslon" itself (and enhanced concealment of facts on the topic of the Navy and the responsible structures of the Ministry of Defense).

Positive


Today, with the air defense of "outdated" frigates of Project 11356, the situation is much better than the Corvette one, in more detail "Anti-aircraft missile" positive ": the Navy began to shoot at real targets".


Photo: TK "Zvezda"

Another, undoubtedly, positive example is the tough position of the Navy and the Ministry of Defense on the Poliment-Redut air defense system of the frigate Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov, which really set the industry the correct and good "tone" of work and improvement of the complex not only at the stage of testing and delivery to the customer , but also for subsequent years.

That is, we can, whenever we want, and there is a tough statement of the question.

And one can only regret that there was nothing similar to this adherence to principle to the head frigate of Project 22350 and the Poliment-Redut air defense system, in the cases of the Thundering corvette (Project 20385) and the MF-radar Zaslon.

One of the key conditions for effective combat air defense training


And here there is another very problematic factor of the air defense of the Navy.

RM-24 is very good, but not enough. It is too expensive and small-scale. And with all its good characteristics, it is impossible to provide mass combat training with it. In addition, having a heavy turbojet engine, the PM24 represents, although much less, but a serious danger to ships (if accidentally hitting the side).
And here it is extremely useful to recall the foreign experience with mass and fairly light UAV targets, which provide both mass combat training (including those with a small parameter) and safety in the event of an accidental hit on a ship. The photo on the right is the hit of an unmanned target BQM-74 Chukar on the American cruiser Chancellorsville. Without any major damage.


October 28, KSF Press Service:

The crew of the frigate "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" practiced firing at air and sea targets with the "Polyment-Redut" anti-aircraft missile system. The combat exercises were carried out in the Northern Fleet's combat training grounds in the Barents Sea ... For shipping and aviation flights, the firing area was closed by the forces of the water area protection brigade of the Kola Flotilla of diverse forces, they also ensured the setting of air targets - target missiles.

That is, the Poliment-Redut air defense missile system, for the sake of fulfilling the combat training plan and, having no normal targets, fired at the Samanam (a converted Osa air defense missile system) from OVR ships, which in no way imitates real modern air attack weapons ... And they left the expensive 9M96 missiles! The effectiveness of such combat training is objectively low.

Yes, there are certain positive trends in the air defense of the fleet and ships.

However, they in no way correspond to the danger, quantity and capabilities of the air attack means of potential adversaries. And if LRASM with B-1B is, rather, a potential threat factor, albeit extremely dangerous, due to the low visibility of anti-ship missiles and the possibility of forming a flexible structure of the salvo (including with a time range close to zero), then the factor of the same Japanese patrol aircraft with anti-ship missiles is practically "knockout" for our fleet.

But the fleet is not only not ready to repulse such real threats and strikes, but also categorically does not want to learn how to prepare, a clear example of which is the massive violations with the reception of the "newest" (and in fact, limited combat capability) corvettes of the Pacific Fleet "Thundering" and "Aldar Tsydezhapov ".

At the same time, in fact, being "on the threshold" of a very probable war with Japan. In which case our fleet is waiting for a defeat worse than Tsushima: both from under the water and from the air.

Instead of an epilogue: "So that no one has any doubts ..."


On October 31, Channel One aired another episode of the Sentinel program - Corvettes of the Pacific Fleet.


It is felt that critical publications on the problems with the air defense of new ships in this film are touched upon. In the style of "everything is fine, beautiful marquise" (including in the statements of officials). There is a wonderful phrase in the picture "So that no one has any doubts ..." - with video details of the shooting.

However, from them (more precisely, the extremely low level of combat readiness of the air defense of corvettes), the hair stands on end.

At the 22nd minute of the film, the presenter, having previously said that "Aldar Tsydenzhapov" (with the new MF-RLK "Zaslon") will work only with "electronic launches" on the anti-submarine Il-38, immediately informs the viewer, literally the following:

“And to see the combat missile launches, we will have to move to another corvette -“ Perfect ”.

I would like to ask the Ministry of Defense a question - who will move to the "Perfect" in a real battle? The whole crew?

The ship could not shoot at air targets even on State tests normally.

But we look further.

It seems like the composition of the “Perfect” radar equipment, “doped” to a half-dead state for many years of fine-tuning, should show at least some result.

And yes. At the end of the 22nd minute a report is heard: “I am observing - the target is aerial. The distance is 25 kilometers. "

Our target missiles (RM-15 and RM-120) have an RCS of about an order of magnitude more than "Harpoons" (and two orders of magnitude more than the latest generation of anti-ship missiles - NSM type), the flight altitude is about an order of magnitude (ten times) higher than the enemy's anti-ship missiles, and "25 km" for our huge anti-ship missiles pose a very bad question: what is the real distance on the "Harpoon" (not to mention NSM)?

Further, at 23:11 they show a picture from the sight - the rocket goes significantly higher than the ship. And then the report - "a distance of 11 kilometers."

And only after that the launch of the missile defense system!

Let me emphasize that the very expensive 9M96 missile defense system, flying a little less than fifty kilometers, because of the poor air defense circuit of our corvettes, they shoot about ten (at the level of the ancient "Wasp")!

Well, then one should "accept target designation" and "destroy the target" of artillery.

That is, miss for missiles?

As a result, the target knocked out by artillery flies past the corvette and goes into the distance.

The presenter shows the audience footage of how the target rocket flies away from the ship somewhere into the distance and says that he wants to see everything at maximum magnification, so that no one has any doubts.

Yes!

There really is no doubt that we are dealing with what in the language of the pevoshniks is called by the words “missing the target”.

The target missile was not shot down: neither by a missile, nor by shells.


There really is no doubt.

The absolute incapacity of the air defense of corvettes is a real threat from the air. And not even modern - the level of the 80s. The Soviet Navy turns out to be unattainable for the current Russian Navy.

In a war, a missile that has flown by would be on board (even knocked out). Not to mention the fact that the enemy will not fire single anti-ship missiles, but volleys.

I would like to ask exactly two questions here.

First: "What do you guys think, did all this pass by the intelligence of a potential enemy?"

And the second, already traditional: "What if there is a war?"

However, these are rhetorical questions, the answers to them are self-evident and do not require analysis.
But the behavior of the officers from "Aldar Tsydenzhapov" requires such an analysis.

And it will be done very soon.
158 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +29
    2 November 2021 06: 58
    Yes ... Maksim Batkovich .... After such reading, I would like to ask: "Why are we feeding this pack of leaders, which simply eats and imitates the violent activity for two (three) decades?"
    For a long time, doubts about the quality of the tests have crept up to me. "Zircon" with a declared range of 1000 km successfully covered 450 km. The S-500 with the declared range was tested successfully and that's it. And this is the most important criterion. It's one thing to declare (announce), another is practical tests ... And then you correctly noted:
    And the second, already traditional: "What if there is a war?"
    1. +8
      2 November 2021 08: 00
      "Shashlik", then? ...
      I would not like to go to such a "picnic".
      But who orders and accepts for service - those would be "on a skewer", speaking in the language of the people ...
      1. +8
        2 November 2021 15: 07
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        "Shashlik", then? ...
        I would not like to go to such a "picnic".
        But who orders and accepts for service - those would be "on a skewer", speaking in the language of the people ...

        I would like to gather all the "acceptors" and "signers" of the "successful" tests on the target barge and conduct several extraordinary tests with real routes of the target missile flights on this barge!
        And let the ships with the tested installations stand on either side of this barge!
        And look at the veracity of the primary tests!
        1. +11
          2 November 2021 15: 37
          Bridge builders have this custom:
          When the tests of the bridge they have built are underway, the architect, the head of the SMU, and the foreman are on a boat under the bridge.
          And on top is the load. Ballast cars are moving.
          1. 0
            11 January 2022 01: 28
            They don't go. They are standing on the bridge. Trucks loaded with gravel. You can also use tanks. Have seen this.
    2. +1
      2 November 2021 10: 22
      S-500 with the declared range was tested successfully

      We need more S-350, I think so.
    3. +10
      2 November 2021 12: 05
      And if tomorrow is a war, our paramilitary fleet goes to the bottom, indeed, we will get Tsushima2!
      1. -16
        3 November 2021 16: 49
        No one will fight with Russia on the sea and oceans, and we will not fight with anyone there, and now all these subsonic anti-ship missiles, like the B1 Lancers, do not pose any danger there are Armor, including naval C 400 radar for over-the-horizon detection and the main deterrent for all nuclear weapons, including tactical weapons in the Navy. There will not be any Tsushima 2, but whoever wants it will suit us with a cover.
        1. +2
          4 November 2021 15: 41
          Quote: Vadim237
          With 400 over-the-horizon detection radar

          And you can learn more about this wonderful radar as part of the S-400 radar, as I was a long-range radar specialist in the past, this is very interesting.
          1. 0
            16 November 2021 19: 15
            RTI / NIIDAR, Lockheed Martin / Raytheon?
        2. +3
          4 November 2021 18: 53
          The presence of a nuclear club does not negate responsibility for poorly performed work, for which a lot of money was received! negative
  2. +27
    2 November 2021 07: 00
    Traditional plus! Of course, it will be difficult for people who are far from technical nuances to perceive this as something important - they will be explained in the correct and necessary tones according to the zombie box - but those whose brains have not yet frozen at the level of "clothes and a smartphone" and are still able to build logical the chains understand that the author has actually described the preconditions for the new "Tsushima". Only it will be even more brutal, because the potential enemy on the same Far East exceeds us quantitatively at times !! request And we even lose where, in theory, we should have compensated for the quantity - in quality. And we are really saved only by what the narrow-minded ancestors looking into the distance, whom it is customary to scold, left us with - nuclear weapons. Because in traditional armaments we already have a gap in all respects. And the excuse like "we are a land power - we have a fleet so far as" does not roll. The same Kurils cannot be defended with balls alone. That is why people interested in games with weapons are played, because they know that, purely hypothetically, a big club hangs behind their shoulders and the enemy is looking at it - therefore, you can swing useless toys in front of his nose.
    Bravo again, M. Klimov. I read all the materials with interest, because it is felt that they are written by someone who knows more than we, a person. And the truth ... It is so, this truth, always bitter for those who live in a world of illusions ...
    good hi
    PS There have always been people screaming about trouble at all times, but is there a prophet in their own country? ....
    1. +17
      2 November 2021 09: 00
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Bravo again, M. Klimov. I read all the materials with interest, because it is felt that they are written by someone who knows more than we, a person. And the truth ... It is so, this truth, always bitter for those who live in a world of illusions ..

      Do you think that "they" live in a world of illusion? Nothing like this. They live in a world carefully constructed by them, where unauthorized entry is prohibited. If someone makes attempts to penetrate or simply cover the events taking place in this "world", then he will face inevitable "physical or political death", "legal or condemnation on trumped-up charges" and "complete oblivion in the media, as the very fact of being or presence ever in this world. "
      Do you fully perceive the nonsense of "gray geldings and mares" that is pouring in a stream on the Ren.TV channel? Here's an expert article on the activities of other experts:
      https://ren.tv/blog/dmitrii-ledovskoi/408673-nedeesposobnost-voennogo-eksperta-klimova
      True, who this is - Dmitry Ledovskoy is not indicated in the credits.
      ==========
      1. +14
        2 November 2021 09: 53
        So who is Dmitry Ledovsky? And even on Ren TV laughing wink So I don't know, but I know that Klimov is a military man and his brains are still working. That is why he sounds the alarm on the basis of his knowledge, as he worked with those who passed the RYE and offered their experience for the non-repetition of what happened. And people who are able to ask quite logical questions based on the analysis of quite accessible information personally cause me more respect than "experts" who are trying to refute "harmful" information for someone else's sake. Therefore, there will always be attacks on the Klimovs and the Timokhins, because they are troublemakers. And they don't like them everywhere. It is one thing when a person really carries delirium, and another thing when his conclusions are logical and are confirmed, if not directly, then at least indirectly.
        1. +5
          2 November 2021 10: 00
          Quote: Rurikovich
          And people who are able to ask completely logical questions based on the analysis of quite accessible information personally cause more respect in me

          good
          And I am of the same opinion. Unpleasant facts, negative information, if they are presented with the observance of reliability, should not be annoying. This is just a reason for thinking that something needs to be changed and corrected, so as not to end up at one fine moment among the ruins and debris.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. +15
        2 November 2021 15: 27
        Answer from Klimov:

        ROSS 42 Today, 09:00
        True, who this is - Dmitry Ledovskoy is not indicated in the credits.


        ANSWER:
        This is a "grandfather with a burning gaze" from the PROVINCIAL THEATER (really), confident that our submarines break through the ice with speed (as in "K-19") ... it happens ... we have canceled our "punitive psychiatry" ... the consequences are observed on the same REN-TV
      3. +1
        4 November 2021 11: 06
        RenTV is a very reliable source. Yes. Most importantly, very competent. Not only in military expertise, but also in the afterlife and the inhabitants of Alpha Centauri.
    2. -11
      2 November 2021 13: 29
      what a chasm if the text directly states even with a photo that the us cruisers with the Aegis are not capable of shooting down a prehistoric target missile, those air defense is not inferior to us
      so the whole world is saved by the presence of nuclear weapons
      at all times there were people screaming about trouble, and in all countries, but are there prophets in their states? - what kind of pathos
      again some kind of rally turns out
      1. +4
        2 November 2021 15: 23
        Don't forget about the human factor. It happens because of the stupidity of the personnel, jambs happen, and it happens when the system is physically unable to intercept what was created to destroy request
      2. +11
        2 November 2021 17: 45
        This is the case for them, we have a system, in addition, Chukar flew low, in contrast to our targets, and his EPR is lower.

        So no, it is not true.
        1. -2
          3 November 2021 07: 56
          and who said that the case, maybe they never fall, unlike ours
          so no, wrong
        2. -5
          3 November 2021 16: 53
          No, they have it just a system, the ship will be burned, the missile will be missed, then the cocaine on board the submarine will be taken into the rock on the submarine - the quality of the personnel decreases every year.
    3. -6
      2 November 2021 17: 14
      Bravo again, M. Klimov. I read all the materials with interest, because it is felt that they are written by someone who knows more than we, a person.

      But why then did Klimov not say a word about the recent exercises in the Black Sea? Where the new Shell M was tested on the Shuya rocket boat.
      "During the maneuvers, the crew of" Shuya "repelled air raids, as well as drone and cruise missile strikes on important objects in the Crimea and in the area of ​​the Kerch Strait. "
      And they passed the tests quite successfully. And the increased range of the Pantsir M (range 40 km, height 15 km) is quite enough to intercept the same LRASM missiles. Moreover, Pantsir M can be installed on all old and small ships (still Soviet-built) of the fleet. As they say - cheap and cheerful.
      Read more:
      https://iz-ru.turbopages.org/iz.ru/s/1234756/2021-10-13/v-chernom-more-proshli-eksperimentalnye-ucheniia-sistem-pantcir-m
      1. +10
        2 November 2021 17: 46
        Well, this is Carapace, and an article about corvettes, there is no Carapace on them!

        Well, in typhoon Blind Shell.
        1. +2
          2 November 2021 21: 43
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Well, this is Carapace, and an article about corvettes, there is no Carapace on them!

          Well, in typhoon Blind Shell.

          =========
          And what, the SOC radar and guidance in the "Pantsir-M" are not there ??? belay
        2. -4
          3 November 2021 16: 57
          Why is he blind in a typhoon - why should he finish the radar station with wishful thinking?
          1. +4
            3 November 2021 16: 58
            mm range.
      2. +6
        2 November 2021 18: 48
        And the increased range of the Pantsir M (range 40 km, height 15 km) is quite enough to intercept the same LRASM missiles

        Does Pantsir-M provide all-round visibility and continuous all-round air defense of the ship? It is only the targets in our tests that fly from that side and at the height at which the air defense of our ship can shoot them down, in a real situation the enemy will attack from the side from which we have no air defense, and at those heights at which our air defense does not operate ...
        Why install a Barrier and an air defense complex with expensive missiles, if in your opinion you can simply scroll to any ship with Pantsir-M, which costs ten times cheaper and which is much more effective?
        1. -2
          2 November 2021 21: 48
          Quote: ramzay21
          Does Pantsir-M provide all-round visibility and continuous all-round air defense of the ship?

          ========
          Single "Pantsir-M" on "Karakurt" (in the stern) provides circular (360 degrees) detection and target designation in shelling in the sector approx. 280 deg.
          --------
          Quote: ramzay21
          It is only the targets in our tests that fly from that side and at the height at which the air defense of our ship can shoot them down, in a real situation the enemy will attack from the side from which we have no air defense.

          =======
          Do you yourself believe in this nonsense? Or do you think the ship will stand still and wait until it arrives on board?
          1. +5
            3 November 2021 00: 31
            A single "Pantsir-M" on "Karakurt" (in the stern) provides circular (360 degrees) detection and target designation into shelling in a sector of about 280 degrees.

            But this is on the "Karakurt", and where to fit the "Pantsir" on the corvettes 20380/85? You can't put it on the hangar: there is nowhere to place the underdeck SHP for missiles and you need to reinforce the hangar's composite roof. Put 2 pcs. in place of the AK-630? Again the issue of the placement of the underdeck SHP and possible problems with the stability of the ship (BM "Pantsir-M" without ammunition weighs 5,5 tons)
          2. +4
            3 November 2021 04: 11
            A single "Pantsir-M" on "Karakurt" (in the stern) provides circular (360 degrees) detection and target designation into shelling in a sector of about 280 degrees.

            Take a look at the photograph of RTO Odintsovo and answer a simple question. Did the creators of Carapace teach Carapace radar to detect targets through an add-on? Or does the platform with the Shell rise above the superstructure during combat service?
            There, the real angles of target detection and their firing 180 degrees of the rear hemisphere.
            Do you yourself believe in this nonsense? Or do you think the ship will stand still and wait until it arrives on board?

            The sad thing is not that you write nonsense, it is sad that you believe in it.
            If your ship is attacked by three missiles, one to the stern, and two to the bow, you will turn your ship in which direction, and most importantly, how are you going to detect low-flying targets with low ESR in the forward hemisphere of Karakurt?
            1. +1
              4 November 2021 03: 08
              SAM "Pantsir-M" on "Odintsovo" has 2 types of radar:
              - 4 fixed canvases of the SOC are placed on the superstructure, looking at all four sides
              - a target tracking radar is placed on the BM.

              It turns out that in the described case, the SOC should detect all anti-ship missiles with different bearings, but only those that can be captured by the SSC BM will be able to hit. But fortunately for the crew of the MRK, an AK-176MA is installed on the tank, which can work on air targets.
              1. +1
                4 November 2021 08: 36
                Oh, I did not know, thanks for the information, a good solution for RTOs.
      3. +3
        3 November 2021 00: 23
        What drones and cruise missiles were hit by Shuya? Who provided "Shuya" with targets in the form of anti-ship missiles? This event was attended by all the RCA of the project 1241 available at the KCHF, and only the "Shuya" have "Termites", and the rest of the RCA are armed with "Mosquitoes"
        There is a clear description of this event:
        ... a source in the Ministry of Defense noted that a conditional missile strike was delivered to the enemy, after which the boats successfully carried out actual artillery fire at sea and air targets.

        Those. "conditionally hit a conditional enemy", and then most likely they fired from cannons at a mock-up of a mine and an air target with an M6 parachute.
    4. +3
      5 November 2021 00: 24
      Which Tsushima? What are you talking about?
      Nobody seriously considers our fleet and it will be destroyed in the bases.
  3. -10
    2 November 2021 07: 01
    Alarming. But do not forget other ways to combat the air threat to our fleet, this is the use of air defense aviation, primarily the MiG-31, to combat air carriers at distant lines and the use of our missile weapons for strikes at the bases of air carriers and stockpiling missiles
    1. Aag
      +7
      2 November 2021 08: 18
      Quote: svp67
      Alarming. But do not forget other ways to combat the air threat to our fleet, this is the use of air defense aviation, primarily the MiG-31, to combat air carriers at distant lines and the use of our missile weapons for strikes at the bases of air carriers and stockpiling missiles

      ... How many of those MiGs (31s) are left? ...
      ... The point is to strike with missile weapons at the bases of air carriers, if the carriers are already in the air? Or will we start early?
      1. -7
        2 November 2021 08: 20
        Quote: AAG
        ... How many of those MiGs (31s) are left? ...

        How many are those B-1s?
        Quote: AAG
        ... The point is to strike with missile weapons at the bases of air carriers, if the carriers are already in the air? Or will we start early?

        If a fight is inevitable and you see that there are many enemies, you must hit first
        1. Aag
          +5
          2 November 2021 08: 45
          Quote: svp67
          Quote: AAG
          ... How many of those MiGs (31s) are left? ...

          How many are those B-1s?
          Quote: AAG
          ... The point is to strike with missile weapons at the bases of air carriers, if the carriers are already in the air? Or will we start early?

          If a fight is inevitable and you see that there are many enemies, you must hit first

          - In addition to B-1, 31 have other tasks, no goals?
          -Then it's time ... Yesterday.
          1. -7
            2 November 2021 08: 47
            Quote: AAG
            - In addition to B-1, 31 have other tasks, no goals?

            A counter question, but do the same B-1 have no other tasks but to attack our fleet?
            Quote: AAG
            -Then it's time ... Yesterday.

            Apparently not, since this did not happen
          2. Aag
            +5
            2 November 2021 14: 15
            Quote: AAG
            Quote: svp67
            Quote: AAG
            ... How many of those MiGs (31s) are left? ...

            How many are those B-1s?
            Quote: AAG
            ... The point is to strike with missile weapons at the bases of air carriers, if the carriers are already in the air? Or will we start early?

            If a fight is inevitable and you see that there are many enemies, you must hit first

            - In addition to B-1, 31 have other tasks, no goals?
            -Then it's time ... Yesterday.

            Excuse me, we sometimes have a MiG-31 to shoot down MLRS missiles ... Probably they can. In a small sector, not for long .And there are still a lot of tasks!
    2. +10
      2 November 2021 18: 25
      But do not forget other ways to combat the air threat to our fleet, this is the use of air defense aviation, primarily the MiG-31, to combat air carriers at distant lines.

      And what are you going to find B-1 on the distant lines? It was during the USSR only at the Pacific Fleet that there were several air reconnaissance regiments on the Tu-16R, there were a bunch of reconnaissance ships, there were AWACS and long-range PLO aircraft flying not only from the Far East, but also from Camrani. There is none of this. Or are you planning to send planes to attack newspaper publications?
  4. +8
    2 November 2021 07: 23
    What do we want is the result of a 30-year collapse of the armies of the fleet and the military-industrial complex. As a result, I can assume that in any case it is practically impossible to prevent the destruction of ships by enemy aircraft by conventional means. The only way out is to use nuclear weapons. The detonation of a nuclear weapon in the air will solve the problem with a high degree of probability. The problem with aircraft carrier groupings can be solved in the same way. I think this is the only thing stopping NATO from starting a war.
    1. Aag
      +9
      2 November 2021 08: 12
      Quote: werke326
      What do we want is the result of a 30-year collapse of the armies of the fleet and the military-industrial complex. As a result, I can assume that in any case it is practically impossible to prevent the destruction of ships by enemy aircraft by conventional means. The only way out is to use nuclear weapons. The detonation of a nuclear weapon in the air will solve the problem with a high degree of probability. The problem with aircraft carrier groupings can be solved in the same way. I think this is the only thing stopping NATO from starting a war.

      Aren't we putting a lot of tasks on nuclear weapons? It seemed to me that the air defense, missile defense, navy, air force exist, among other things, in order to ensure the guaranteed and unconditional use of strategic nuclear forces at the right time ... thing in itself, for parades, admiral's posts, export, mastering the budget; and the Strategic Missile Forces (the sea and air components are not yet convincing, see the articles of the Author) will "cover" this disgrace ...
      "... Detonation of a nuclear weapon in the air will solve the problem with a high degree of probability. Similarly, you can solve the problem with aircraft carrier groups ..."
      Where do you propose to undermine? At their bases, borders? (Suicidal) And by whom?
      ... Another thanks to the author, and success in the fight against criminal lawlessness! hi
      1. -5
        2 November 2021 09: 09
        Quote: AAG
        Aren't we putting a lot of tasks on nuclear weapons?

        Nuclear weapons - this is the panacea that allows you to keep in firm memory and a sober mind even a large group of spiteful critics. The availability of charges that are universal in power and the improvement of methods for delivering them to their destination is a good warning system. The main thing in this process is to realize that the world cannot exist without Russia - in this form, nobody fucking needs it. Yes
        1. Aag
          +8
          2 November 2021 14: 04
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Quote: AAG
          Aren't we putting a lot of tasks on nuclear weapons?

          Nuclear weapons - this is the panacea that allows you to keep in firm memory and a sober mind even a large group of spiteful critics. The availability of charges that are universal in power and the improvement of methods for delivering them to their destination is a good warning system. The main thing in this process is to realize that the world cannot exist without Russia - in this form, nobody fucking needs it. Yes

          Sorry, I gave you a detailed answer, - it's gone! I have one like this: for the last two months, the smartphone has disconnected, "VO" has all been dropped? ...

          "... YAO is that panacea ..."
          No! Not a panacea. And not even the last chance. Argument, -Yes! The last argument is not to do this. Don't start.
          ... And they are trying to take him away from us. In various scenarios ... They feel ... And, as it turns out, almost everywhere - softly ...
          Comrade, Klimov ( hi ) masterfully does it (makes it clear that we have it softly) in
          this naval theme ...
          It has long been unheard of on the "VO" air ("from the plow of the naval commanders) ...
          But the number of built Su-57, Tu-160, modernized Tu-95, and even MiG-31 (which actually started the dispute), makes us conclude that there, in the Aerospace Forces, everything is very far from the air component of the strategic nuclear forces ... . (fabulous, -Yes!) normal, not enough ... For a number of indicators.
          Nah .... If you watch the 1st channel, Zvezda, the shoulders unfold! ... Not yet in the subject ... It seems that the most tangible blow for many (most) ordinary people (unfortunately, for a number of VO commentators, is a blow to the "pink glasses" (I mean the optical component, otherwise there will be ...).
          "We are here!", "We are here! ..."
          ... Excuse me, "We" is who? Voenpensy (to whom I belong), or did the players shoot at various kinds? And most importantly, -What and How? ...
          I apologize for perhaps being overly emotional, but hating, in such a situation (IMHO), is criminal.
          It was an opinion ... Now, excuse me, - knowledge ...
          Returned to the beginning: "YAO is a panacea .."
          There was a period when it was so, - the Gorbachev "thaw" (when in every possible way, everywhere, the USSR's armaments, which posed a potential threat to the United States and their "partners", were terminated - although, in those years, it was possible without quotation marks ...). , a participant in the destruction of the Pioneer PGRK, ... by launches! Even there, the USSR made amers think (!): We have one launch delay; they have -50% start-up delays (different times), and, about 10-30% of failures (different sources; apparently, further, more ...).
          Now, as before, (IMHO) the Strategic Missile Forces remains the main restraining force ... But, alas, not so guaranteed ... There are many reasons.
          Let me send the text as it is (otherwise, if it flies, we can be left without any correspondence at all)))) hi
    2. -5
      2 November 2021 09: 04
      Quote: werke326
      I think this is the only thing stopping NATO from starting a war.

      NATO is stopped from war by complete or selective physical destruction. It's called - "Nobody wanted to die (just die)" Yes
      1. Aag
        +4
        2 November 2021 13: 04
        Quote: ROSS 42
        Quote: werke326
        I think this is the only thing stopping NATO from starting a war.

        NATO is stopped from war by complete or selective physical destruction. It's called - "Nobody wanted to die (just die)" Yes

        I think this is not what stops it. Either there is no such task yet, or more effective, proven methods have been worked out ...
      2. +10
        2 November 2021 18: 57
        NATO is stopped from war by complete or selective physical destruction. It's called - "Nobody wanted to die (just die)"

        You can use nuclear weapons only once, the last one. And now the question.
        Are you ready to die if the Japanese start an operation to wean the islands that they consider to be theirs? Is our President ready to die for this?
        If both answers are not present, then tell me how and how are you going to defend the interests of our country, chewing snot and concerns?
  5. -9
    2 November 2021 07: 50
    mine is alarming as always!
  6. +16
    2 November 2021 08: 32
    something tells me that in other branches of the military, the acceptance of new weapons is about the same, with formal tests
  7. +3
    2 November 2021 08: 34
    US bombers challenge the Russian Navy. Is our fleet ready to answer it?

    Gloomy picture. And then I thought that our entire fleet on the Black Sea was reliably covered by the air defense of the Crimea and not only at the parking lots due to the S-400 (in the future S-500) and fighters.
    1. +14
      2 November 2021 10: 02
      Quote: riwas
      And I thought that our entire fleet on the Black Sea was reliably covered by the air defense of the Crimea and not only in the parking lots due to the S-400

      No С400 will be enough to shoot down Harpoons and Larsmas with them.
      C400s are made to shoot down Avaks and those B1s. But after arming Lrasmami, our long-range air defense systems became not dangerous for them.
      1. -8
        2 November 2021 13: 41
        why did they become not dangerous (the S-400 were made to shoot down avaks, v-1, fighters and cruise missiles)?
        are you an expert or so slogans to write
        1. +8
          2 November 2021 14: 18
          Quote: Janerobot
          are you an expert or so slogans to write

          Yes, bae, once I was taught. The truth has been for a long time.
          why are they not dangerous?

          But because they can use their weapons without entering the zone of our air defense.
          S-400 made to shoot down avaks, v-1, fighters and cruise missiles

          If they spend all their ammunition on missiles, then there will be no more fighters, AWACS and B1 / 2/52.
          That is why separation was invented.
    2. +8
      2 November 2021 18: 33
      And then I thought that our entire fleet on the Black Sea was reliably covered by the air defense of the Crimea and not only at the parking lots due to the S-400 (in the future S-500) and fighters.

      In order to use the S-400 long-range missiles, like the S-500, you need to detect the enemy and issue target designation, and the ground antennas of these complexes are limited by the radio horizon and cannot do this. We need AWACS planes, but they are not.
  8. -28
    2 November 2021 08: 58
    After an attack on a warship under the St.Andrew's Flag, you will not envy the attacking country!
    1. +18
      2 November 2021 09: 05
      Very funny
      1. -14
        2 November 2021 09: 08
        When was the last time a warship of the USSR and Russia was attacked? At fishermen, and the last time with blanks was fired at the wheelhouse by Argentines in 2000.
        1. +11
          2 November 2021 10: 25
          Georgians in 2008, Turks in 2015 and the attack ripped off the sight of the St. Andrew's flag.
          1. 0
            3 November 2021 17: 03
            "Georgians in 2008" - And what happened to their fleet of boats in this attack and, most importantly, what did they expect to get from this attack? The Turks in 2015 - yes in another country in Syria shot down Su 24 - we are now talking about our territory and the fleet.
            1. 0
              4 November 2021 03: 05
              The conversation is not about the possible consequences of an attack on a Russian Navy ship, but about the fact that the presence of the Andreevsky flag, according to Tralflot, will provide better protection.
              In 2015, in the Aegean Sea, a Turkish seiner was in full swing aboard the anchored SKR Smetlivy, ignoring all signals and warnings, and only warning shots clearly explained the prospect to this fisherman / provocateur / brand.
      2. +2
        2 November 2021 12: 51
        Mr. Timokhin, I ask you to reach out to Klimov and resolve the question I asked Maxim.
        The data indicated on the information field of the sight clearly indicate the flight altitude of the RM-15 target missile at the moment of its destruction (at a distance of 9 km) of about ... 100 m (70–120, according to various estimates).

        Where did he get this data from? There is nothing of the kind on the vizier. See my comment below. Thank you in advance.
        1. +5
          2 November 2021 13: 16
          This is widely known in narrow circles, see the answer below
        2. +8
          2 November 2021 16: 01
          Klimov reports:

          Monsieur KKND:
          1.Taking into account the deliberately and initially boorish YOUR statements - they do not talk to people like YOU, but send and dunk
          2. ALL the figures given by YOU (except for the data of the sight) are nonsense and a pump (which have nothing to do with reality).
          3. No "lenses" are needed to estimate the flight altitude, a school trigonometry course is enough for this.
          4. At the same time, taking into account clause 3, the calculation errors do not have much significance, that 50m, that 70, that 100 - all of this is EVERYTHING FORGIFT (because real anti-ship missiles are suitable in units of meters)
          5. All YOUR "attempts" to mumble something with "left" numbers and deliberate insults have a simple and ONE goal - to PROMOTE TO DISCLOSE. YOU ARE THE PROVOCATOR, and the attitude to YOU ​​is appropriate
          1. -5
            2 November 2021 16: 49
            1.but Klimov himself is rude to the left and to the right, and he is also dunked
            2. ALL the figures given by YOU (timokhin and klimov) are nonsense and a pump (which have nothing to do with reality).
            4.and what is the difficulty to shoot down a rocket at a height of 5 or 30m (they shoot down an ATGM cornet)
            5. All YOUR "attempts" to mumble something with "left" numbers have a simple and INTEGRAL goal - to PROMOTE TO DISCLOSE. YOU ARE THE PROVOCATOR, and the attitude to YOU ​​is appropriate
            you see practically and your comment suits you
            you do not give any facts, and deny reality, while inventing something
            1. +8
              2 November 2021 18: 08
              1.but Klimov himself is rude to the left and to the right, and he is also dunked


              Can I have a link to Klimov's dipping? I want to see.

              you do not give any facts, and deny reality, while inventing something


              The answer sent by Klimov to this is:

              1.but Klimov himself is rude to the left and to the right, and he is also dunked


              MK:
              BUNNY, if there were at least some real proofs and proofs for this, then you would now happily ride with them. But you don't have ANYTHING - except your stupid DIFFERENCE

              2. ALL the figures given by YOU (timokhin and klimov) are nonsense and a pump (which have nothing to do with reality).


              MK:
              BUNNY, how are you with your eyesight? This is the OFFICIAL VIDEO of the RF Ministry of Defense !!!

              4.and what is the difficulty to shoot down a rocket at a height of 5 or 30m (they shoot down an ATGM cornet)


              FACE BY TABLE, from the official video of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation -
              flying target missile






              It is seen? The rocket flies, the camera turns behind it, turns towards the stern, the rocket farther and farther, and in the last photo there is only an inverse track, the rocket itself is already so far away that it is not visible.

              What is not clear to you here?
              1. +1
                3 November 2021 07: 54
                I didn't offend you, why are you calling me a bunny, on the Internet we are still heroes, yes
                do you want me to call you the same girl,
                This is just a video, and if you miss it, it happens (Ticonderoga with Aegis as an example), the same air defense system passed the tests, for example, we did not see the video of Aegis shooting down satellites and for some reason we believe that they shot down.
                The Amrikans conducted tests and stated that the Aegis knocked everything down, and then a Russian Navy reconnaissance ship approached and they didn’t hit it (it’s impossible to shake things off)
                why is the rocket smoking there?
                and 25 km is not a radio horizon for a corvette radar, that is, both the harpoon and NSM and the target cannot be detected further
                1. +4
                  3 November 2021 17: 01
                  this is just a video, and if you miss it, it happens (ticonderoga with aegis as an example)


                  No, corvettes (with old radars) sometimes get hit.
                  And they miss all the time, it is rather the norm.

                  This is the difference between us and the Americans, who have this hit rate.
                  1. -2
                    3 November 2021 17: 28
                    give statistics so that we would also believe in mistakes
                    and maybe the Americans never get where the video hits
        3. The comment was deleted.
  9. +5
    2 November 2021 10: 33
    All true.
    They challenge us, we challenge them ...
    And everyone needs to master the money ...
  10. -13
    2 November 2021 10: 48
    The plaster cast is removed for the client, everything is gone, chief, who of you is included in the General Staff of the Russian Federation? Where does such an all-out mood come from? Someone is leaking classified information on state tests and acceptance into the public domain? We do not know anything from reality, and we can only guess and assume, I suppose that there will be no wars and NATO attacks on the Russian Federation, since the world has already been divided and agreed, a long time ago, and all these horror stories are for the people of both countries, and this whole circus in Kovidom confirmation of this. The only catch can be, who will swear whom, no matter how it was like in the early 40s of the last century, and there would be enough will in the event of deception and attack to deliver a nuclear strike on the decision-making centers, and the sense from an attempt to destroy the Russian fleet is zero, as you think will there be an attack on the ships?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. -1
      3 November 2021 17: 08
      Their task with such articles is to promote the Ministry of Defense for large expenses on the fleet up to spending on aircraft carriers - which are fucking unnecessary since they will become a large sinker for the budget while standing chained at the quay wall.
    3. -1
      4 November 2021 23: 19
      Quote: Sirocco
      The plaster cast is removed for the client, everything is gone, chief, who of you is included in the General Staff of the Russian Federation? Where does such an all-out mood come from? Someone is leaking classified information on state tests and acceptance into the public domain? We do not know anything from reality, and we can only guess and assume, I suppose that there will be no wars and NATO attacks on the Russian Federation, since the world has already been divided and agreed, a long time ago, and all these horror stories are for the people of both countries, and this whole circus in Kovidom confirmation of this. The only catch can be, who will swear whom, no matter how it was like in the early 40s of the last century, and there would be enough will in the event of deception and attack to deliver a nuclear strike on the decision-making centers, and the sense from an attempt to destroy the Russian fleet is zero, as you think will there be an attack on the ships?

      The target flew past the target, dear! And should have fallen before! What reality do you still need. And this is not a war, but just exercises and not several missiles, but one (one). What will happen when 2,4,6 missiles go. I think - a mass grave. Like the T-72 of various modifications without active armor, but with tarpaulin canopies over the tower, but cheap for the state. Today the report was shown from Suzdal, they called the salary in the city, which is considered normal, 12-15 thousand rubles. Think about these numbers, it just becomes scary. Where's the money? What kind of state is this, where fill up with oil, breathe as much gas as you want, etc. and there is no money for decent salaries for their citizens.
  11. monkey9000
    +9
    2 November 2021 11: 07
    We know about the power of the Russian army and navy only from the words of Shoigu and the leading parades taking place on May 9 and July 25. In reality, things are different.
    1. -7
      2 November 2021 16: 52
      but what in reality tell us the truth
      Well, the siruns do not attack us weaklings
      1. +12
        2 November 2021 19: 10
        Well, the siruns do not attack us weaklings

        Isn't it enough for you? They took away Ukraine, shot down our Su-24 over Syria, kicked out of Libya with a kick in the ass, provoked the death of our Il-38, regularly bombed our ally, the army of a sovereign country.
        You try to shoot down an American plane, or arrange a coup in Mexico, or expel American troops from Kuwait, or start bombing the Kuwaiti army, and you will see the reaction of a strong country and not the rabbit games of our leader.
        1. -6
          3 November 2021 07: 32
          when we were kicked out of libya,
          your nonsense about livia lowered the value of your comment to zero (better not bullshit)
          the Taliban kicked the Americans out with a kick in the ass, they ran dropping kakakhi, losing equipment and weapons - that's true
          why do we need a coup in mexico or bomb Kuwait
          and Ukraine ran away by itself, unlike the west, we cannot provide them with lace panties, etc.
          and if you write, then at least first read the news: there was not an IL-38 shot down, but an IL-20, and for example the Iranians bombed American bases and the Americans wiped themselves off with snot, and this is your reaction from a strong country
          1. +5
            3 November 2021 08: 36
            You will wipe your nonsense under your nose.
            How many military or civilian Americans were killed in the evacuation from Afghanistan? And let me remind you that leaving Afghanistan was the decision of the Americans, just like the withdrawal of our troops from the same country, no one kicked them in the ass.
            And the Turks kicked ours out of Libya, and there were plenty of our citizens killed there. Here, as well as for the pilot of the Su-24 or our officers and the general, as well as the citizens of the Russian Federation who served in PMCs, who were killed by the Turks and their militants, no one answered and will not answer, only something vague about tomatoes bleached.
            From the fact that it was an Il-20 and not an Il-38 died less than ours?
            We were simply kicked out of Ukraine, in which the Russian people live, together with the legitimate president, and no strong country will tolerate this. But you can repeat after our leaders the hare remarks about concerns and grieving about the divided Russian people, which were divided with the tacit consent of a bunny from the Kremlin.
            The Iranians at least had the courage to dash around the American bases, though they did not kill any of the Americans, but it became clear that there were men at the head of the country and not a chorus of bunnies clinging to their trinkets.
            No one will dare to bomb the Americans or their allies or shoot down an American plane, because the Americans will destroy any country for this, as was the case with Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq.
            1. -6
              3 November 2021 17: 43
              you make a mistake, but I have to wipe
              The Taliban gave the Amrikans time and, throwing equipment and weapons, they fled from Afghanistan, we went out with an orchestra and parade line and no one told us the time for evacuation, as an American, you even deny reality in this
              Ukraine went to the place where she was offered lace panties (that is, economic development such as in France), we cannot offer this (since we ourselves can hardly move), so nothing can be done here, even a bunny, even a lion in the Kremlin
              you do not even understand what you are writing: in one paragraph you write that at least Iran had the courage to hit the Americans, and then write below: No one will dare to bomb the Americans or their allies, because the Americans will blow any country for this = and the Iranians to still have not been bombed, the amrikans have wiped out
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            4 November 2021 23: 22
            Quote: Janerobot
            when we were kicked out of libya,
            your nonsense about livia lowered the value of your comment to zero (better not bullshit)
            the Taliban kicked the Americans out with a kick in the ass, they ran dropping kakakhi, losing equipment and weapons - that's true
            why do we need a coup in mexico or bomb Kuwait
            and Ukraine ran away by itself, unlike the west, we cannot provide them with lace panties, etc.
            and if you write, then at least first read the news: there was not an IL-38 shot down, but an IL-20, and for example the Iranians bombed American bases and the Americans wiped themselves off with snot, and this is your reaction from a strong country

            God, what an impenetrable .......
  12. +8
    2 November 2021 11: 54
    A good pill of sobering up ... In general, thank you very much for arguing with specific facts, even if (perhaps) given one-sidedly. Opponents have a free opportunity to refute by facts, and not by air from themselves from both sides at once ...
    Small remark
    The photo on the right is the hit of an unmanned target BQM-74 Chukar on the American cruiser Chancellorsville. Without any serious damage.

    This is not MRK "Monsoon" of course, but still 30 million dollars at 2013 prices. and a CRUISER (not at all MRK in terms of survivability) for six months to be repaired - it can definitely be attributed to quite serious damage.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Chancellorsville
  13. +7
    2 November 2021 12: 11
    And the President is holding the second series of meetings with the military and the military-industrial complex ...
    I wonder what they are discussing there, if the output is the same as in the article?
    1. +8
      2 November 2021 14: 11
      I wonder what they are discussing there, if the output is the same as in the article?


      https://ria.ru/20211101/aviatsiya-1757227818.html

      On a hike, someone dragged the report up to the ivory tower. To the king.
      1. +4
        2 November 2021 19: 12
        Hallelujah!
        But there is no interested person.
        "We need to develop naval aviation at a faster pace, primarily by equipping the Navy with promising aircraft and aircraft weapons of destruction" - "promising" means "not soon", perhaps - "never."
        And the land comrades will not let this pass, and if they do, they will simply add Su25.
      2. +2
        3 November 2021 23: 17
        There is no time for buildup. I'm afraid it will end with the same result
    2. -11
      2 November 2021 17: 29
      And the President is holding the second series of meetings with the military and the military-industrial complex ...
      I wonder what they are discussing there, if the output is the same as in the article?

      Well, what?
      They will build 20385 instead of 20380. Which is devoid of these shortcomings (described by Klimov).
      1. +7
        2 November 2021 18: 17
        Do you read what you comment on? Most of the article is based on Thundering as an example, and he is 20385
    3. +4
      2 November 2021 19: 16
      I wonder what they are discussing there, if the output is the same as in the article?

      They discuss who has which trinkets are better, this is obvious from the results of their activities.
  14. The comment was deleted.
    1. +10
      2 November 2021 13: 14
      This is not written for you, do not pay attention. The article is an element of war in prof. community.

      People in the subject know perfectly well both the range at which Thundering knocked down the rocket, and the fact that, apparently, the saucer was not unscrewed before launch (EPR).
      Also known is the height of the camera on the Thundering.

      And the elevation angle is visible on the sight, and as a result, the height of the rocket flight is easily calculated.

      It's just that not all the data was taken from the sight, but who needs to understand everything.
      1. 0
        2 November 2021 13: 51
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And the elevation angle is visible on the sight, and as a result, the height of the rocket flight is easily calculated.

        So what kind of vizier Maxim will be able to say? And most importantly, does he know the characteristics of this vizier's lens system?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        It's just that not all the data was taken from the sight, but who needs to understand everything.

        So let him open the source of his data. If it is secret, then how does it publish them, and if the source is unreliable, then the whole article is based on "fake".
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        People in the subject know perfectly well both the range at which Thundering knocked down the rocket, and the fact that, apparently, the saucer was not unscrewed before launch (EPR).

        What other plate? Radar? Why leave a working radar station on the target rocket? It is not worth a little money.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        This is not written for you, do not pay attention. The article is an element of war in prof. community.

        Fight, do not fight, you will get it anyway ... But on the other hand, maybe you need to fight request
        1. +7
          2 November 2021 13: 56
          So what kind of vizier Maxim will be able to say?


          I answered you for Maxim - there is a target angle on the sight.

          So let him open the source of his data. If he is secret then how he publishes them


          Range is the words of a well-known person, a senior officer. And they even are on the internet.
          Just for their own. For the gallery.

          What other plate? Radar? Why leave a working radar station on the target rocket? It is not worth a little money.


          Well, how would it be that other radar ... but you can leave it on the rocket, because it is stupidly not needed for anything, the P-15 is a rarity, where will you put the plate? But it raises the EPR in the front hemisphere. And this is, as it were, an indicator, in the case of the Barrier.

          Fight, do not fight, you will get it anyway ...


          The one who laughs last laughs well. We must fight, yes.
          1. -3
            2 November 2021 14: 05
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Range is the words of a well-known person, a senior officer. And they even are on the internet.

            You can find out the range if you know the characteristics of the lenses in the objective. I don't know the exact mechanism, but it seems like if you know the focal length of the lens and the relative dimensions of the target, you can calculate the range with an error.
            Apparently about the same:
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And the elevation angle is visible on the sight, and as a result, the height of the rocket flight is easily calculated.

            Just from all the information in the picture, won't it make it difficult for you to name where the elevation angle is registered?
            1. +3
              2 November 2021 14: 07
              You can find out the range if you know the characteristics of the lenses in the objective.


              Do you want to receive such information?

              Just from all the information in the picture, won't it make it difficult for you to name where the elevation angle is registered?


              Of course, it will not be difficult. The question, however, is the following - for what purpose are you, a citizen, interested?

              Are you a provocateur?
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. +6
                  2 November 2021 15: 02
                  No, I suppose if the angle of elevation is written in the picture in the sight is definitely not classified information.


                  Such details about AME are a state secret, no options.

                  it's not clear what kind of vizier he is


                  Without "b". Optoelectronic review system, watch the video attached to the article, so almost all open data on it are sounded and the work is shown, including some interesting features. There is also an open name.

                  But to answer where the angle of the place is spelled out in the picture of Maxim, there is nothing secret. Go for it.


                  The office did not break off recently to create a virtual in one warm southern country in order to provoke me into some business like before and close. In the end, the dudes worked on the principle of "go for fur and come back with a haircut."

                  Here adults are sitting, you don't have to turn on the fool.
                  1. -10
                    2 November 2021 15: 22
                    Well, damn it, how important people have become the rude warrant officers of the clothing service! Cut back the sturgeon of conceit, Timokhin!
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                    1. +5
                      2 November 2021 16: 01
                      Klimov reports:

                      Monsieur KKND:
                      1.Taking into account the deliberately and initially boorish YOUR statements - they do not talk to people like YOU, but send and dunk
                      2. ALL the figures given by YOU (except for the data of the sight) are nonsense and a pump (which have nothing to do with reality).
                      3. No "lenses" are needed to estimate the flight altitude, a school trigonometry course is enough for this.
                      4. At the same time, taking into account clause 3, the calculation errors do not have much significance, that 50m, that 70, that 100 - all of this is EVERYTHING FORGIFT (because real anti-ship missiles are suitable in units of meters)
                      5. All YOUR "attempts" to mumble something with "left" numbers and deliberate insults have a simple and ONE goal - to PROMOTE TO DISCLOSE. YOU ARE THE PROVOCATOR, and the attitude to YOU ​​is appropriate
              2. +1
                4 November 2021 12: 39
                Just from all the information in the picture, won't it make it difficult for you to name where the elevation angle is registered?


                Of course, it will not be difficult. The question, however, is the following - for what purpose are you, a citizen, interested?


                Useless. Glasses do not help completely blind.))))
                ... if only to Stevie Vander.
      2. 0
        3 November 2021 08: 43
        This is not written for you, do not pay attention. The article is an element of war in prof. community.

        Alexander, do not waste time on explanations, the clever will understand and you will not prove anything to fools. Better write your wonderful articles, these are the only objective sources of information about our fleet, they are always interesting to read.
        Thank you for your work and take care of yourself!
  15. +1
    2 November 2021 13: 04
    So what is the reason for this disgrace? The stupidity of managers. or sabotage? It is impossible to exclude the possibility of bribery of the key figures of the projects, who make ineffective decisions. How to solve the problem? Maybe with iron mittens?
    1. +6
      2 November 2021 16: 30
      There are a lot of reasons for this and there is no smell of stupidity of managers here. They are rather smart "too much", especially when it comes to how to get to the state defense budget, get funding, rivet something similar to the ordered, then cut the rest and hide in the lilac fog of London.
      And the problems with air defense, both sea and "pedestrian" based, did not arise now. They were during the Great Patriotic War, and in Korea and Vietnam and beyond everywhere. But then at least there were people who tried to solve these problems and often succeeded. But with the coming to power of Gorbachev, Yeltsin and others like them, a formal defeat began. And it began with the arrival of Rust to the Kr Square. At that time I was just on a business trip to GRAU and I remember how the officers with whom I talked there reacted to the news about Rust. And the reaction was unambiguous for all - now the heads of the authorities will fly, and the heads of their subordinates will fly behind them. And so it happened. Intelligent military leaders were removed, and in their place were put "personally loyal". And this defeat was not limited to the air defense, but touched upon the entire Armed Forces of the Union. Then the "opupeya" began with the withdrawal of the GSVG from Germany and the privatization of military property, then privatization affected everything else (industry, resources, etc.) and as a result we have a new class of owners, that is, managers. And all they are doing is imitation of violent activity, organizing shows such as tank, biathlon, building military temples, etc. And on the quiet they quietly and dusty build communism in each individual family. To my family, of course. And they do it much better than what they "lead". And now the question is whether these people are traitors to their country. The answer is, no, they don’t have their own country, and they consider the country where they and their families are warm and comfortable now and where they will be comfortable tomorrow. And from this follows the next question: are these people interested in creating weapons with which they can actually fight and win victories. Not at all. They are bad with their own hands to do what can destroy their "noble nest" in some sort of France, Italy, etc. There are no such bad ones there. The plump faces of Messrs. Sechin, Rogozin, Chubais and others like them convincingly confirm this. Therefore, it makes no sense to look for some technical reasons for the fact that our missiles often fly in the wrong direction. When honest people get down to business, these missiles will fly where they need to. But ... dreams, dreams
  16. +12
    2 November 2021 13: 14
    Dear M. Klimov.
    Once again, I want to express my gratitude to you for your competent and uncompromising article on the problems of the Russian Navy. Unfortunately, such articles on VO are becoming less and less, and instead of them there is a stream of flood, banter, etc. "entertainers".
    I'm not even talking about the completely abnormal number of commentators-minusers who, alas, create a completely unacceptable atmosphere when discussing any topics published here. True, the quality of the materials themselves at VO is more and more replaced by quantity. Well, God bless them. As the saying goes, “whoever knows what, he does it.
    Fortunately, such worthy authors of articles as M. Klimov and A. Timokhin have not yet transferred to VO.
    True, I somehow "kicked" M. Klimov for the excessive, in my opinion, details in one of his articles, for which I sincerely apologize to him. although I still believe that we do not need to make life easier for the analysts of the enemy's military intelligence. Yes, I understand that M. Klimov's articles are based on open materials, but the systematization of such materials and competent conclusions from them is also not an easy task. But let's leave confidentiality issues on the author's conscience and get to the point.
    And the bottom line is that modern air defense systems of most ships of the Russian Navy (and not just corvettes) are unlikely to provide the required effectiveness of protecting these ships from enemy air attacks.
    In particular, I have already written more than once that such air defense systems as Pantsir-M and their analogs ancestors, in principle, are not capable of repelling the "stellar" massive raid of these very SVN.
    And they cannot do this because of the rigid mechanical connection of missile and artillery weapons "in one bottle", which makes it possible to forget about the multichannel nature of these complexes.
    And if on land this shortcoming can somehow be compensated for by increasing the number of air defense missile systems, placing them around a protected object like a rampart and "cutting" a narrow sector of responsibility for each of them, then on ships, especially on ships of small displacement, such a focus will not work and will not passes. Well, there is nowhere to put a lot of Shells, and it's expensive. So ships are born with one single Armor, which is tortured to turn the "head" with its guns and missiles at different azimuths and angles of the place and ponder what to shoot at each target. In the meantime, he will think there is a high probability that something arriving from the opposite direction will deprive both the Shell of the head and the crew of the ship protected by him of life.
    Yet. It has already become almost obvious that with an increase in the range of missiles and their equipping with active and passive seeker, the problems of air defense of ships are being solved "at once".
    I dare to disappoint fans of long-range missiles. In reality, everything looks much worse. for and for long-range missiles, the problem of their continuous, right up to the terminal section of the trajectory, tracking missiles and targets has not gone anywhere.
    It is in the short-range air defense system that the target of the seeker can be captured even before the launch of the missile defense system. At long ranges, the missile defense system requires external control or correction of its trajectory until the moment when the missile defense system with its very frail radar and / or infrared head will be able to confidently capture the target, while not confusing the target with its aircraft, which may well be nearby. And with the installation of state recognition systems on missiles, there is a big problem.
    And the last thing. In the fleets of a potential enemy, the air defense problem is primarily solved by carrier-based AWACS and U and fighter aircraft. At the same time, the radar and radar data processing facilities for these aircraft have long been optimized for detecting enemy air weapons (including non-flying anti-ship missiles) against the background of the underlying surface (sea and land). And all sorts of anti-aircraft missile, artillery systems and electronic warfare systems are considered on these fl; ots, basically, as the last line of defense. Unfortunately, the Russian Navy does not yet have such an opportunity and will apparently be absent for a very long time.
    Well, since the radio horizon line at sea, as well as on land, has not been canceled, then the air defense systems of ships have very little time to detect and defeat low-flying air defense systems and there are big doubts that this time will be enough. And even if that's enough, then taking into account the problems listed by uv. M. Klimov in his articles on naval air defense, it is not a fact that the missile launcher will get where it is needed on time, and not in his ship, as was the case with the Monsoon MRK in 1987.
    1. -3
      2 November 2021 14: 22
      Quote: gregor6549
      Yet. It has already become almost obvious that with an increase in the range of missiles and their equipping with active and passive seeker, the problems of air defense of ships are being solved "at once".
      I dare to disappoint fans of long-range missiles. In reality, everything looks much worse. for and for long-range missiles, the problem of their continuous, right up to the terminal section of the trajectory, tracking missiles and targets has not gone anywhere.

      The main problem of missiles in the fleet is not even electronics, but the small energy of missiles. There is no 5,5 ton C-300V or 8 ton C-200. Well, if you equip an AGSN missile defense system, which from 200 km "Hornet" can take aim, "Hornet" from 130 km can launch its "Harpoon" and maneuver away from the 300-ton S-1,5 launched on it.
      The Americans have the same problem, but our Tu-22s can "accept" their "Hornets".
      1. +7
        2 November 2021 15: 24
        And here is the answer from Klimov, with a twinkle (as it seemed to me, especially for a provocateur, but I might be wrong here):

        KKND Today, 14:22
        The main problem of missiles in the fleet is not even electronics, but the small energy of missiles. There is no 5,5 ton C-300V or 8 ton C-200. Well, you will equip the AGSN missile defense system, which from 200 km "Hornet" can take in sight


        ANSWER:
        Boy, you are just talking FERRY nonsense!
        Shoot to teach math, otherwise tomorrow there will be "deuce again"!
        1. -1
          2 November 2021 15: 30
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Boy, you are just talking FERRY nonsense!
          Shoot to teach math, otherwise tomorrow there will be "deuce again"!

          Maxim, are you a specialist in the navy and in the air defense at the same time? So, after exiting the inertial mode, air defense missiles are controlled by the algorithms of the direct proportional navigation method. If the plane maneuvers, the rocket also has to maneuver in an attempt to arrive at a constantly changing lead point. Here's a video watch how the F-18C left 55 km from the S-300. Although not an accurate simulation, the basic principles are correct.
          1. +3
            2 November 2021 16: 02
            Klimov reports:

            Monsieur KKND:
            1.Taking into account the deliberately and initially boorish YOUR statements - they do not talk to people like YOU, but send and dunk
            2. ALL the figures given by YOU (except for the data of the sight) are nonsense and a pump (which have nothing to do with reality).
            3. No "lenses" are needed to estimate the flight altitude, a school trigonometry course is enough for this.
            4. At the same time, taking into account clause 3, the calculation errors do not have much significance, that 50m, that 70, that 100 - all of this is EVERYTHING FORGIFT (because real anti-ship missiles are suitable in units of meters)
            5. All YOUR "attempts" to mumble something with "left" numbers and deliberate insults have a simple and ONE goal - to PROMOTE TO DISCLOSE. YOU ARE THE PROVOCATOR, and the attitude to YOU ​​is appropriate
    2. 0
      3 November 2021 23: 23
      Klimov and Timokhin are one person)
    3. -1
      4 November 2021 15: 26
      Quote: gregor6549
      In particular, I have already written more than once that such air defense systems as Pantsir-M and their analogs ancestors, in principle, are not capable of repelling the "stellar" massive raid of these very SVN.
      And they cannot do this because of the rigid mechanical connection of missile and artillery weapons "in one bottle", which makes it possible to forget about the multichannel nature of these complexes.

      In all the topics that I have met, supporters of such statements completely ignore such an important parameter as the importance of the protected object and the cost of ignoring.
      For example, if an object is worth 50 million, it makes no sense to defend its air defense for 100 million.
      This is a very crude and primitive example (it all comes down to simple cost, although in reality it is not), but it demonstrates the principle itself.

      So the corvette militarily poses a threat expressed by 8 caliber missiles.
      As a result, it is important to understand what priority this ship will have for the enemy and for ourselves in terms of its protection.

      In other words, in the approach to protecting the ship, one must adhere not to the principle of "the more the better" striving for "absolute invulnerability", but the principle of "reasonable sufficiency".
      1. 0
        5 November 2021 06: 46
        At stake is not only and not so much the protection of material values, including the value and military significance of the protected object, but above all the lives of servicemen operating this object (ship, etc.).
        Of course, from the point of view of some "strategists", human life is worthless and it is necessary to take care only of all "shelesyaki" and then if they are expensive.
        This has already happened in the history of Russia, and not only in Russia, and it is known what an incredible number of people were ruined because of this approach.
        Here one could learn from Israel, where life has always been and still is at the forefront. each a soldier, and not a concern for the preservation of technology. And to protect these lives, the State of Israel spares no money by developing weapons systems and military equipment with efficiency / cost criteria that are not entirely clear for the above "strategists".
        1. -1
          5 November 2021 13: 15
          Quote: gregor6549
          At stake is not only and not so much the protection of material values, including the value and military significance of the protected object, but above all the lives of servicemen operating this object (ship, etc.).
          Of course, from the point of view of some "strategists", human life is worthless and it is necessary to take care only of all "shelesyaki" and then if they are expensive.
          This has already happened in the history of Russia, and not only in Russia, and it is known what an incredible number of people were ruined because of this approach.
          Here one could learn from Israel, where life has always been and still is at the forefront. each a soldier, and not a concern for the preservation of technology. And to protect these lives, the State of Israel spares no money by developing weapons systems and military equipment with efficiency / cost criteria that are not entirely clear for the above "strategists".


          You are demonstrating a very vivid example of a person who is fond of fiction. Not scientific. Instead of clear logic - an appeal to indistinct emotions.

          First of all, who said about "a person's life is worthless"?
          You? I did not say that.
          People are dying in the war. If you are such a humanist, and you are trying to knock out a tear here, well, then proclaim yourself a pacifist, since the life of a person is so valuable to you, let's abandon the war as a principle. Then neither our soldiers nor strangers will die. Because where the ship's crew is going to shoot a rocket - they are people too, can you imagine!
          Why then your meaningless passage about "human life"?

          Secondly. It was about REASONABLE SUFFICIENCY.
          Because even in your categories, you need to defend not only 1 ship.
          Airfields need to be protected. Warehouses, etc.

          The enemy is also not. and attacks so that his blow is most noticeable. And that means goals have priority.

          He needs to destroy the airfield, he needs to destroy the naval base, ammunition depot, etc.
          For him, goals also have priority.

          It is also advisable for him to spend some limited amount of resources on the corvette, and not throw the entire fleet in order to organize the "Star raid".
          Therefore, the protection of the ship must be PROPOSED.
          There is no need to try to write here - "A person's life is worthless" and other nonsense.
          If you do not have these criteria, then ... your logic can be endlessly developed. Let's give 10 instead of 20 missiles, is that better than 10? A 30 is better than 20. A 40 is better than 30.

          But your logic becomes quite crooked if you remember that the resources of the state are limited.
          And if there are 500 people at the airfield, and you fought over SUPER air defense to protect the 15-man equipment. And because of this, 500 people are covered much worse ... and they will be fucked there.
          In this case, how do you keep counting human lives?

          Or is there no concept of money in your strategic brain, yes? And you do not understand that it is impossible to protect EVERYTHING equally well?)
          That's what I was talking about - to protect everything proportionally. And not like you - abstractly in a vacuum.
  17. +1
    2 November 2021 13: 45
    Quote: Maxim Klimov
    For example, the Hurricane air defense missile system of the Project 956 destroyers provided all-round air defense (effective against the "star raid"), however, due to the use of missiles with GOS (their random target distribution to salvo missiles), it did not ensure reliable shelling of all anti-ship missiles.

    What are these strange statements? Pro 956, the Hurricane air defense system does not have an AGSN missile defense system, there is a passive seeker and yes against a star raid from all sides simultaneously protected from 2 missiles, since there were only 2 single-shot beam installations and the reload time was about 30 seconds.
    Quote: Maxim Klimov
    Its standard Mk141 launcher ensured the anti-ship missile descent rate of less than 2 s, that is, the ability to form a 4–8 missile salvo with a temporal range of 6–10 s (called “shish kebab” in professional rocketry slang).
    "Harpoon" was also a standard weapon of naval aviation, in this case it had a lower "rate of fire" from the aircraft suspension

    Well, straight to the Hornet pilot after capturing the ship with his radar, it will take a lot of time to launch the "Harpoons" one after the other. No, a couple of seconds, no more.
    Quote: Maxim Klimov
    At the same time, the EPR of the new anti-ship missiles of the US Navy (LRASM and NSM) has decreased by about an order of magnitude from the "Harpoon" (to values ​​of just over 0,01 mXNUMX from the nose).

    EPR AGM-158C secret information, you will not find it on forums on the Internet. I came across figures of 0,000055 m² from the nose on American forums.
    Quote: Maxim Klimov
    The fact that air defense is one of the main tasks for medium-caliber artillery became clear back in the 30s of the last century, and World War II convincingly confirmed this.

    Rave. Kamikaze will not be allowed to lie, and there, too, the Americans used shells with radar fuses.
    Quote: Maxim Klimov
    Plus, given the enemy's actual anti-ship missile system, it would definitely have been on board the Aldar Tsydezhapov, despite the fire of both 100-mm and 30-mm artillery mounts. Let me emphasize that the cause of the problems is not the cannon, but the MF-RLK "Zaslon"!

    Is not a fact. Could detonate the warhead if there was a hit.
    1. Aag
      +3
      2 November 2021 14: 50
      "... Not a fact. Could detonate the warhead, if there was a hit.
      ... ".
      How likely? I think that everything has been spelled out in the "textbooks" for a long time. The question is, to what extent are TE textbooks (leaders' opinions) acceptable to the current realities?
      It's no secret that propaganda and slogans are for the electorate. Outstanding TTZ, serious analysts, adequate staff officers must operate with other information!
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. -4
          3 November 2021 17: 16
          All subsonic missiles, including the AGM-158C, are not problematic for air defense, they can even shoot down with a large-caliber machine gun the main thing is to know the exact direction of the attack and have a good sight.
  18. -15
    2 November 2021 16: 18
    I signal where to go, let the relevant services check this "maxim of Klimov" - where are these photographs from (nothing less than the stamp "DSP") and whether the "author" has the right to publish them in the free press.
    1. +11
      2 November 2021 17: 08
      Little child!

      Hey!

      This was the official video of the Ministry of Defense, all the pictures were taken from there! Come to your senses.
    2. 0
      2 November 2021 17: 52
      Check yourself at the same time, in medical services.
  19. +3
    2 November 2021 16: 31
    In light of recent explanations from the authorities regarding information equated to state secrets, it is somehow alarming for Topvar's authors.
  20. 0
    2 November 2021 17: 51
    I watched "The Sentinel" and thought: how will they fly in from Klimov! And certainly, but so quickly, I did not expect.
    So according to the article: ours shoot down the wrong targets (this is understandable), and the "enemies" - the correct ones, but they get in the side (this does not fit with the conclusions). And if "enemies", for example, targets with "Mosquito" parameters, are knocked down, then I would like to watch a video, photo, and so on. And it's somehow one-sided ...
    Gorshkov with Redoubt, Ash, Gren were brought up for several years, and Zaslon, the same people took it without trials, strange.
    1. +9
      2 November 2021 18: 15
      So according to the article: ours shoot down the wrong targets (this is understandable)


      Mostly they do not knock down.

      and the "enemies" are correct, but they get on board (this does not fit with the conclusions).


      This is an isolated case for many years of practice of shooting with a high consumption of targets.

      And if "enemies", for example, targets with "Mosquito" parameters, are knocked down, then I would like to watch a video, photo, and so on.


      Do not get knocked down. Well, we, as shown here in the "Sentinel" and the P-120, cannot shoot down.

      and the Zaslon, the same people accepted without trial, strange.


      These respected people are too respected. Plus, the Americans are looming behind their backs with their experience of infiltration, recruitment, etc. But it is not exactly.
      1. -1
        4 November 2021 12: 39
        Mostly they do not knock down.

        Thank you for the link https://forums.airbase.ru/2021/11/t85910_380--ctorozhevye-korabli-korvety-proekta-20380-stereguschij-5.html
        Found an exhaustive comment there:
        repaying "debts" for testing, all three corvettes fired SAMs with one of the types of SAMs. all three are successful. All three missiles were hit by RM. The Tsydenzhapov was the most successful in firing - it destroyed the RM at the longest range. RM collapsed and stopped flying. The perfect one let the RM closest. he fired both SAM and AU at the same time. In this case, part of the shooting was carried out in a general order. in accordance with the Rules on a Dangerously Flying Missile ("... changed the trajectory after being hit by missiles ..."), all the ships of the order fired. The film is a cut from episodes of different time, place and ships.

        This is an isolated case for many years of practice of shooting with a high consumption of targets.

        Yes is different winked
        But it is not exactly.

        This explains a lot, otherwise I have a straight break in logic ...
        Thank you
        1. +2
          4 November 2021 23: 40
          Found an exhaustive comment there:


          This is not an exhaustive commentary, this is a lie of the very insider who is involved in this lewdness.
          An analysis of this statement is being prepared.

          If what he wrote were true, then at least they would have shown the launch of a missile defense system from Tsydenzhapov. But - 9M96 is a scarce thing, there are not enough missiles, ammunition storage cannot be accumulated, and no one wants to shoot deliberately into milk, without a chance to hit.
          1. 0
            8 November 2021 13: 13
            An analysis of this statement is being prepared.

            I read all your articles. For all their depth and technical sophistication, it seems that the position was chosen by you in advance and is largely subjective. This, unfortunately, leads to devaluation, in my opinion, of your conclusions in the eyes of readers with "critical thinking". And the emotionality and categorical nature of the statements only enhances the effect.

            If what he wrote were true, then at least they would have shown the launch of a missile defense system from Tsydenzhapov.

            Filmmakers need a spectacular picture, and if "Tsydenzhapov" shot at maximum range - what would they show? This somehow explains the reporters' move to the place where you can film the "fireball" of RM and the work of art.
            The film is a cut from episodes of different time, place and ships.

            In the video, the launch of the RM is generally a launch of the Vulcan anti-ship missile system (I may be wrong), this shows their tech. literacy and casts doubt on the phrase about "digital launches", etc., but does not confirm and
            all ships of the order fired
            ... Is it true or not? The crew knows for sure. smile
            In your articles, you raise the necessary and most interesting topics - thank you. It's not for me to teach you! But it will be more interesting for me to read them if there is more objectivity in them.
  21. -13
    2 November 2021 19: 00
    How did you get it with your commemoration and praises to anyone, but not to our weapons and our soldiers, topvar authors. ru (maybe it's time for you to move to more appropriate domain zones!). Our enemies (and friends too) know that we can offer much better than you defeatists. And if we were as weak as you howl here in every second article, Ukraine and Georgia would already be NATO members, and the Kuril Islands belonged to the Japanese.
    1. +7
      3 November 2021 12: 14
      That is, in fact, everything is fine and there is nothing to worry about, right?

      And if we were as weak as you howl here in every second article, Ukraine and Georgia would already be NATO members, and the Kuril Islands belonged to the Japanese.


      At this rate, we may well see the Japanese Kuril Islands, and very soon - also thanks to uryakalka like you, whose joyful squeal is used in the Ministry of Defense as a demonstration of public support for all this indecency by the decision maker.
  22. +5
    2 November 2021 19: 05
    hi
    "There really are no doubts - we have before us what in the language of the pevoshnikov is called the words" miss the target "
    Quite reasoned.
  23. +4
    2 November 2021 20: 20
    thanks to the respected Maxim Klimov for civil courage and patriotism, it is obvious that a surface ship will not survive in the Black and even more so the Bali Sea and the Sea of ​​Japan, even if the air defense of the corvette is corrected, it is still the air defense of the corvette (a cruiser frigate and or an unnecessary aircraft carrier), that is, limited by that or other parameters, at least in terms of ammunition. Surface ships of the 1st and 2nd rank should be obviously removed from these seas, replaced with MPK MRK operating in the zone of coastal air defense and coastal aircraft which should be actively developed.
    In the north and in Kamchatka, the enemy will be limited just like us, that is, his offensive means are limited, and the approach of aircraft is tracked in advance, 1155 frigates and cruisers will come in handy there (obviously no new cruisers are needed, but the old ones can be used) there is in the ocean a chance not to die from the first missile, but to shoot it and its carrier
    1. -1
      3 November 2021 17: 24
      A ship now of any size is a good target - one hit and it is covered with all its combat potential, and stuffing it with all these ultra-modern radars with air defense missile defense systems only increases its cost and the cost of its maintenance, but only slightly increases its combat resistance and does not protect it from defeat itself.
      1. -1
        3 November 2021 17: 51
        Quote: Vadim237
        A ship of any size now is a good target - one hit and it is a cover with all its combat potential.

        this is obvious to anyone, how little bit wise tactician and strategist, and for a long time, therefore, the future belongs to invisible submarines and fast planes
  24. +4
    2 November 2021 21: 58
    The author is a big plus for a highly professional article.
  25. +1
    3 November 2021 15: 45
    Thank you for the article! Such articles give hope that they will be read by those leaders who are entrusted with the fate of our Fleet and Naval Aviation and who have honor, conscience and responsibility for the fate of the direction of combat work entrusted to them !!!
  26. -1
    3 November 2021 15: 56
    tough position of the Navy and the Ministry of Defense


    will replace everything that is not physically. Drinkers can drink calmly
    1. 0
      3 November 2021 17: 26
      The patriots are interested in the ground forces of the air defense and the air force - Russia does not particularly care about the fleet, it is only needed to defend its maritime borders.
  27. +4
    3 November 2021 19: 16
    Quote: tralflot1832
    After an attack on a warship under the St.Andrew's Flag, you will not envy the attacking country!

    Uh-huh, again we will stop buying tomatoes or something else, and yes, we will cancel tours to the Seychelles, .... we will also scribble "inadmissibility of such actions" and "stab in the back" on Fakebook wassat .... This is our best air defense hi
  28. +5
    3 November 2021 22: 31
    As I understand it, the journalists did not understand that all the shooting had failed, they were simply lit. It seems that we are witnessing a desperate call by the guys through television to a serious problem.
    But something tells me that not termites with electric saws will be punished, but those who tried to tell all this and show it as it is.
    1. +5
      4 November 2021 13: 27
      Quite possible. I also thought that someone in the Moscow region specially set up such a drain.
  29. 0
    4 November 2021 08: 09
    Judging by the article, our fleet is able to respond with those that will go to the bottom ... Yes, things in the Navy, frankly speaking, are bad
  30. +4
    4 November 2021 11: 21
    1941 climbs to its full height. We do not learn anything. Now minus. Last time they missed everything
  31. -6
    4 November 2021 12: 51
    Oh oh oh we take an overcoat are we going to surrender? Kiev respects and will immediately chase its boats at us.
    1. 0
      4 November 2021 23: 25
      Quote: musorg
      Oh oh oh we take an overcoat are we going to surrender? Kiev respects and will immediately chase its boats at us.

      You would be engaged in music, probably closer to the topic.
  32. -4
    4 November 2021 12: 55
    And what did this Klimov really do for the benefit of the Navy to change something? And that today we really have freedom of speech?
    1. +5
      4 November 2021 13: 27
      Did something.
  33. +1
    5 November 2021 18: 23
    the situation is, as always, bad but not hopeless. but for now I'll go 100 grams, otherwise something is not good ...
  34. 0
    6 November 2021 03: 35
    I remembered a saying: I don’t know who wrote, but I read.
    The author, perhaps (???), has some information. But getting it across he gets sucks. Some kind of jumps, jerks, etc. Now the Black Sea, now the Baltic.
    Korose, I stopped reading when I realized that I had lost the thread of the author's thought
  35. 0
    8 November 2021 02: 02
    Sir, you pissed me off with your stupidity.
    In wartime, the Black Sea will turn into a shooting gallery. And B-1 bombers can be the best shooters in it. In 2017, the B-1 was the first aircraft of the US Air Force to be converted to a new stealth long-range anti-ship missile (LRASM) - with a range of 480 kilometers with a high-tech multi-mode homing head (GOS). Each B-3 can carry 1 of these missiles, costing $ 24 million. A pair of B-1s can launch 48 LRASMs across the Russian Baltic Fleet.

    In total, five years ago, the States armed their B-1 with medium-range missiles (480 km is not a long range, but for stupid ones: LRASM (Low Range Air to Surface Missile) - for strikes against the Baltic Fleet (DKBF).
    And these archaic missiles will set up a shooting range in the Black Sea?
    This may be enough to sink an entire fleet in one go and eliminate the main threat to the ships of the United States and its allies in the region.
    1. 0
      8 November 2021 02: 08
      I will add: soon the US NAVY ships will have nothing to do in the Black Sea in general, and due to lack of fuel in particular.
  36. 0
    8 November 2021 02: 23
    The author has problems with the Russian language:
    The specifics of the air defense of the Navy since the late 70s of the last century are targets with a very low RCS, operating at often extremely low altitudes.]

    Who would translate this into Russian for me?
    Does this mean that the air defense of the ships of the fleet is sharpened against low-flying targets? So the 630th assault rifle (AK-630, 30mm caliber, 6-barrel, rate of fire up to 5400 rpm) removes them due to the water curtain created by the automatic burst in front of the approaching target.
    EPR in this case does not matter, the guidance is carried out visually.
    1. 0
      8 November 2021 21: 11
      Even the AK-130 has a water curtain just for show. Never and nothing was shot down in this way. And there are fountains about forty meters. In general, 630 stands on ships for beauty, and this is an evil reality.
  37. -1
    8 November 2021 16: 47
    Well, Russia does not have a fleet - so what? but, as the President of the Russian Federation promised, there will be thousands of Armats and hundreds of Su-2021s in the army in 57. Hurray, comrades.
  38. 0
    8 November 2021 17: 46
    I believe that if I analyze the ships of different armies in detail, then everyone will have problems or the quality itself
    Service.
    Remember how in the Mediterranean to the American
    a rubber motor boat swam to the strategic ship and blew up the side with a radius of 3 m and this is in the afternoon. !!!
    If we criticize our weapons, then the old one works and the performance characteristics limit is slightly higher than the declared one, and the new one will inevitably be "darn" and refined.


    I have only one question - why is it necessary to compare the capabilities in the event of an attack (or the death of our ship) on our ships, isn't this a war anymore?
    It will be necessary to "Not reflect" the air raid, but to strike at the bases from the port of Constanta to NATO Headquarters and Fort Knox.
    "Whoever comes with a sword will perish by the sword."

    By the way, our fleet will defend the shores, but it is unlikely to be able to operate at a distance.
  39. -1
    9 November 2021 08: 03
    Yeah. The games of the guarantor in airplane tanks and ships, with such budget expenditures and completely useless exhaust, are more like sabotage.
  40. -1
    10 November 2021 16: 25
    It's scary for the Russian fleet, because as you know, there is no reception against LRASMa. Especially if you overload
  41. The comment was deleted.
  42. 0
    13 January 2022 13: 38
    https://barcaman.ru/publ/1-1-0-148
    http://sarb.in.ua/explore/russkij-stil/item/381-vospominaniya-o-proshedshih-sborah-v-deneshah.html
    http://rollershop.pp.ua/shop/index.php?productID=429
    http://www.paraplanoff.net/polezno_znat/planernyi_simulyator_polezno_dlya_izucheniya_paryashih_poletov/
    http://www.kulturizm63.ru/category/zhenshchiny
  43. 0
    13 January 2022 13: 55
    http://vertagu.ru/sportimu.htm
    http://zdrav-sila.ru/Catalog/0/469
    http://vertagu.ru/nsporte.htm
    http://zdrav-sila.ru/Article/kachaem-triceps
    http://fbmo.ru/logic_20000002.html
  44. 0
    13 January 2022 13: 56
    https://barcaman.ru/publ/1-1-0-148
    http://poprobyi.ru/ParashutniySport/kak-opredelyaetsya-pobeditel-v-parashutnom-sporte-kofeynya
    http://nskvmf.ru/velo1/samostoiatelnaiakomponovkavelos.htm
    http://nsoul.ru/MagazinSportivnogoPitaniya/
    http://szghbi.ru/category/gandbol
  45. 0
    13 January 2022 14: 07
    http://wushu-brest.com/index.php/photo.html?func=viewcategory&catid=32
    http://hk-traktor.ru/550-kapitan-chelyabinskogo-traktora-reshil-ne-uxodit.html
    http://quimicasiris.ru/kecontact.htm
    http://sport-ok.ru/catalog/252/
    http://www.anross.ru/index.php?l0=questions
  46. 0
    13 January 2022 14: 09
    http://levada-tour.com/about/
    http://poprobyi.ru/IspolzovanieParashuta/krasnaya-stropa-parashuta
    http://taksi-krim.ru/pcontact.htm
    http://health-tools.ru/1-5-0-0/
    http://quimicasiris.ru/topnazapisa712.htm
  47. 0
    13 January 2022 22: 26
    http://vertagu.ru/nsporte.htm
    http://poprobyi.ru/ParashutniySport/kak-opredelit-pobeditelya-v-parashutnom-sporte
    http://sportoboz.ru/2012/08/02/fotootchet-s-oi-2012-neudacha-dzyudoista-kirilla-denisova.html
    http://sport-e-planet.ru/warranty.html
    http://www.snow-sport.ru/biathlon/526-izmenenija-v-pravilakh-provedenija.html