"Karakurt" vs "Buyan": pro et contra

87
"Karakurt" vs "Buyan": pro et contra

The reason to think about and then to voice their opinion was, firstly, the ongoing disputes about the simultaneous massive construction of small missile ships of two very similar and at the same time completely different types: Project 21631 Buyan-M and Project 22800 Karakurt, secondly, the proposed modernization and continuation of the production of the highly criticized in naval environment RTO "Buyan-M".

The main argument justifying the massive construction of RTOs with medium-range sea-launched cruise missiles is the violation of the US global monopoly on the possession of this class of missiles under the INF Treaty operation and compliance.



In the context of the termination of the INF Treaty, at present, our country has twelve MRKs (9 Buyans and 3 Karakurt) with ammunition of 96 missiles in the European theater of operations can only serve as weak consolation (if not criminal complacency) if the United States has the opportunity to organize permanent presence on a rotational basis in the Barents, Baltic and Black Seas, one destroyer or cruiser with a similar ammunition load.

The very information about the presence of several thousand missiles of this class in the US Navy's arsenal is an incentive and reason for continuing the construction of domestic MRK at an accelerated pace. Moreover, the possibility of deploying the CRSD on board a few corvettes, frigates and submarines of the Russian Navy can only be perceived as possible options for solving tactical problems in local conflicts. These universal ships, both in peacetime and in wartime, will have to solve the whole range of tasks of the naval specifics proper, for which the current RTOs are of little use.

In an economic war with world leaders such as the United States and the European Union, we cannot afford to build twelve MRCs or an equivalent universal destroyer in opposition to each enemy destroyer. The simplest and most effective answer is to further modernize the MRK pr. 21631 "Buyan-M", which, first of all, should be aimed at doubling the ammunition load of cruise missiles with a categorical requirement for a minimum increase in displacement and dimensions of the ship.

Let's conditionally call this version of the MRK pr. 21636 "Buyan-M2" (the six at the end of the digital designation has not yet been met by the author in the public media).

A visual representation of two UVP 3S14 in the top view of fragments of the existing and modernized ship designs in the longitudinal plane of the superstructure center does not give the entire picture of the restructuring of the internal structure.


Outwardly, the difference can be expressed in the expansion of the aft end of the upper part of the superstructure in the area of ​​\ uXNUMXb \ uXNUMXbthe installation of large-caliber machine guns.

By the way, about machine guns.

Expansion of the superstructure in the indicated place may cause inconvenience during the combat operation of the CPV calculations.

On the one hand, the author is a supporter of the wider use of machine guns in the fleet of the 14,5 mm caliber, with the gradual and appropriate replacement of 12,7 mm machine guns. Still, the scale of target detection distances, the possible reaction time to them, the very size of targets, their number and security at sea rationally suggest the use of a larger caliber and the power of a bullet.

On the other hand, nothing is impossible for the 30-mm Gatling assault rifle present on board with a much wider field of fire.

In short, in order to save weight, space on the ship and reduce the crew, I consider it reasonable to reconsider the replacement of the existing five machine guns on board with three 12,7-mm Kord machine guns in a naval version on the modernized project, by analogy with the Karakurt.


The upgraded ship with 16 UVP can become a real alternative to the mobile coastal missile system "Bastion", which consists of 4 self-propelled launchers (2 missiles each) and 4 transport-loading vehicles (2 missiles each) with control and life support facilities.

Not only can the ship's on-call time be several times longer than the time on which the ground complex is on duty when performing anti-ship defense missions, in parallel, it can also keep the enemy's coastal infrastructure at gunpoint within the reach of those on board the KRSD.

It is necessary to take into account such an element of counter-battery warfare, the use of a PBRK presupposes its preliminary advance to a chosen position, deployment, watch and performance of a combat mission at a specific point of the terrain, folding and departure to the place of permanent deployment (if possible), the use of a missile weapons from the ship is supposed to be on the move and at any time upon receipt of the command.

In addition, the ship, as a complex of weapons, has its own air defense systems, anti-sabotage countermeasures, radar and electronic reconnaissance equipment with an electronic warfare system. At the same time, the use of both the ship and the PBRK assumes cover under the umbrella of the coastal regional air defense.

Readers should remember the time of dangerous cold and hot war balancing in Europe with the use of medium-range cruise missiles and ballistic Pershing IIs.

The terminated INF Treaty is secretly valid to this day. And in accordance with the provisions of this agreement, Russia has the right to have a sea-based KRSD and must certainly use it. And, no matter how bad the MRK pr. 21636 "Buyan-M2", like warships with vague tasks, the fleet will have to endure them and maintain them in a priority order to maintain and increase the strategic balance of the country's defense as a whole.

Thus, the brigades of RTOs in the fleet will be akin to units of the ground forces equipped with Iskander missile systems, the need and importance of which, I hope, no one doubts.

In order not to repeat the nonsense from Wikipedia about the power plant of the first series of MRK pr. 21631 with German, Chinese and Russian diesel engines of various capacities, let's look at the future of the modernized project 21636 Buyan-M2.

If you look at the fellows in the class of "Gadflies" and "Karakurt" with 112-cylinder engines developed in the middle of the last century, then a pair of 16-cylinder diesel engines, similar to the frigate of project 22350, seem to be the height of perfection and a miracle of rationalism. There should be three of them on Buyan-M2 alone. Agree, MAZ or KAMAZ with a 56-cylinder small-sized more powerful engine, but more voracious compared to the traditional V-shaped eight, would look ridiculous.

I would venture to suggest that even with three water cannons and three diesel engines 10D49 (16chn26 / 26) with a total capacity of 15 liters. with. God forbid the modernized Buyan-M600 to conquer 2 knots. And this should be considered a quite acceptable decent result if he can go at a cruising speed of 24-16 knots with two units working and accelerate to 18-10 knots of economic speed with one engine.

Attacking enemy convoys and fighting enemy naval strike groups on the high seas should be a secondary task for this ship, and the availability of such an opportunity is rather a pleasant bonus.

If you search in historical In retrospect, analogs of such ships, they can be compared with the gunboat "Koreets" and ships of the same type of the Russian Imperial Navy. They had a few, but ultimately heavy weapons for their displacement, dimensions and seaworthiness, carried a patrol service and guarded fisheries, as well as stationary service in Japanese, Korean and Chinese ports, their habitats were the Finnish skerries, and the Gulf of Riga, shallow estuaries rivers from Europe to the Far East. Modern RTOs have a unique opportunity for inter-fleet maneuver from the White and Baltic Seas to the Black and Caspian Seas, and the available area of ​​application in the European theater of operations is limited only by the Ural watershed.

According to various sources on all types of diesel 10D49, its specific fuel consumption (from 199,5 to 211 kg / kW * h) is 7-8 percent less than that of high-speed twin diesel engines of the M-507 (A-D) family (227 g / kW * h), which are installed on "Karakurt" and "Gadfly". The latter are lighter, more compact and have a higher power density, so they are preferable on light MRKs, missile and torpedo boats, minesweepers. These ships do not require a significant cruising range or autonomy.

Also, the indisputable advantage of 16-cylinder units in comparison with 112-cylinder engines is their operational reliability and resource: if the assigned resource before removing the pistons for 10D49 is 10-15 thousand hours, then only 507 will pass before the first complete bulkhead of the M-3 engine compartment hours.


Consider a hypothetical march of the modernized Buyan-M2 (and Karakurt) over a distance of 240 miles.

As is usually the case, at a given point the ships “should have been yesterday”, and they will go to the combat mission at maximum speed. Based on the indicated specific fuel consumption figures, each of the three engines of the ship will consume 800 (1) kilograms of fuel at full power.

The ships will arrive at the point in 10 (8) hours, having consumed 24 (31,2) tons of fuel. If we assume that the difference between the total and standard ship displacement of 99 (70) tons is mainly the supply of motor fuel and engine oil (the supply of fresh water, as a rule, is an order of magnitude less), then the "Buyan-M2" will have approximately ¾ of the possible, while in "Karakurt" - only about ½.

What is 240 miles?

This is the open sea, the ocean, 444 kilometers from the coastal air defense systems and fighter airfields, and will the advantage of the "Karakurt" written on paper matter there, in autonomy of 10 (15) days, at a maximum speed of 24 (30) knots, in conditionally better seaworthiness, if the risk of being left without fuel (read - without running, with the radar and communications off, de-energized weapons) is much higher than that of a competitor.


There is no point in comparing and breaking lances on the issue of ships' radar weapons. They are equipped with practically the same type of navigation and firing radars.

But the difference in the installation of antenna posts of active search radar complexes in height is about three meters. As you know, the height of the electrical center of the antenna directly affects the detection range of air targets at low and especially extremely low altitudes, at medium and high altitudes this is not so critical, because the curvature of the earth begins to affect.

And, oddly enough, Buyan-M has an advantage in this parameter. An antenna located above will make it possible to detect an anti-ship missile system or a helicopter at an extremely low altitude 1,5-2 kilometers further from the ship, under equal conditions with the Karakurt.

The reaction time and engagement range for a countermeasure complex of 100-mm A-190, 30-mm AK-630M2 missiles and Igla or Verba missiles is not much different from similar parameters of the countermeasures complex with 76,2-mm AK-176MA and 30 -mm submachine guns with missiles ZRAK "Pantsir-M".

In terms of a combination of conflicting characteristics and factors (such as: a high rate of fire of the main battery; lower height and length of the ship; the presence of an additional millimeter-wave radar and the ability to fire several targets at the same time in the ZRAK; greater power of warheads and the range of destruction of 57E6E missiles) superiority in the effectiveness of air defense the ship must be given to "Karakurt" with "Pantsir-M".

The initial version of the "Karakurt" without the ZRAK, with the usual pair of AK-630s, was in no way superior to the "Buyana-M" air defense.


The "militarists" have a natural desire to install on the modernized "Buyan-M2" ZRAK "Pantsir-M", which will inevitably lead to an increase in displacement, but does he need it?

If there is a modernization of the MRK project with the installation of a second UVP 3S14 UKSK, then this will entail the need to find in the hull and superstructure an additional volume of 90 cubic meters for a weight of about 50 tons in the appropriate configuration. And this is not a trivial task anyway, provided that the dimensions and VI of the ship are kept at the level of its predecessor. It is enough to look at the land version of the "Pantsir" to understand that the "Pantsir-M" is several times heavier and more voluminous than the "Duet".

The method of struggle to maintain displacement is simple and obvious.

Following the example of civilian budgetary organizations, this is the optimization and reduction of the crew to 35 military men with a redistribution of duties at the discretion of the commander, in the end, it is necessary to increase the level of automation of the processes of operation and control of the ship and weapons (besides, the reduction of machine gun barrels is written above). Replacing four diesel generators on the modernized project with three more powerful ones will also save volume and weight.

Further, the proposals are not so obvious and, of course, not indisputable.

We have already mentioned the relatively high location of the antenna post of the Pozitiv radar on the MRK pr. 21631 at a height of about 15 meters, which is at least three meters higher than the placement of the antenna post of the active radar of a similar purpose on the MRK pr. 22800. The weight of this product is 1 kg, that, together with the radio-transparent fairing and the weight of its actual bearing mast support of appropriate strength and rigidity, it turns into a significant factor that worsens the already not outstanding seaworthiness characteristics of a ship shallowly sitting in the water.

It is offered at the customer's choice: either simply reduce the height of the antenna post by a couple of meters, or perform it with the possibility of folding by 90 degrees according to the model and likeness, as is done on the machine of the self-propelled command post of control and communications of the coastal missile complex "Bal".


The author is inclined to give preference to the second option.

The ability to fold the top of the ship's antenna-mast device (AMU) will give a significant expansion of geography, where the ship can go without stricter height restrictions. In other words, the ship will have access to rivers and lakes in the European part of the country, which its predecessors could not stick to due to restrictions on passage under the lower spans of bridges over the navigable sections. This will seriously expand the capabilities for strategic concealment of the deployment of units of such ships.

In terms of seaworthiness, the ability to curtail the AMU in stormy conditions will help the crew in the fight against the elements, and in calm weather, decent capabilities will be retained as a radar patrol ship.

The experts can also submit a proposal to amend the underwater part of the bow of the ship.

If the "Gadflies" had purely cutter hull contours, then the "Karakurt" is considered to have a kind of transitional type of hull, more adapted to the near sea zone, provided that high speed characteristics are maintained.

"Buyans" were initially positioned as ships of the "river-sea" class without any claims to outstanding speed characteristics. Their highlight should be fuel efficiency and economy across the entire range of available speeds. This can be helped by the nasal bulb in front of the underwater part of the nasal tip. While maintaining the original dimensions of the ship, this device will not only improve fuel efficiency, but also have a positive effect on seaworthiness, which has been criticized in many publications.


If you understand objectively and without personal prejudices, then the accusations against project 21631 of poor seaworthiness are perhaps the only drawback of these ships, which for some reason is usually exaggerated.

Looking at the outlines of the hulls of ships belonging to the class of corvettes, it is difficult not to notice their practical identity in the underwater part. "Buyans" from the Black Sea go to Mediterranean and serve there, where, by definition, Israeli corvettes are registered. These corvettes, according to the parameters shown in the figure, are 15-25 percent higher than our RTOs, but the freeboard in the bow is equal to both the Saar and Buyan, and even the Karakurt, which is 10 percent lighter and smaller. " Buyana ". But in the direction of "Saarov" and "Karakurt" reproaches in poor seaworthiness are not heard.

Comparing the domestic project 20386 corvette with a draft of 4,3 m with the "Karakurt" (4 m), which is more than three times heavier and one and a half times longer than MRK, we probably will not hear reproaches against him for poor seaworthiness only because of for a relatively low draft.

While reproaching the Buyans for their poor seaworthiness, one must understand that the ship is not bad, it was made that way to gain in other parameters, as a result of compromises and setting the required priorities.

And what about "Karakurt"?

Never mind!

Nothing bad, as for a ship of the Russian Navy. And nothing good in comparison with the ships of a potential enemy.

From the positive.

The ship was quickly designed using the existing technological backlog, is being built at several factories in different regions of the country at an unprecedented pace in the new Russia, will replace the "workhorse" of the Soviet Navy MRK "Ovod", which were on stream from 1967 to 1992. For thirty years we have changed the generation of missiles from "Malachite" to "Onyx" / "Caliber" and SAM "Osa-MA" to "Pantsir-ME". And we also reproach the domestic auto industry for the long thorny path from "penny" to "Kalina".


The picture shows a Swedish corvette of the Visby class, the very Swedes whom Peter the Great called his teachers. Each of the five ships of the project (in size something between the "Gadfly" and "Karakurt") was built in a purely Russian way: from 12 to 18 years.

Let us briefly compare the miracle of enemy technology with the pride of our fleet.

The hull of the Swedish ship is made of a hybrid composite material using Stealth technology, which is 50 percent lighter than the hull of the same dimensions of our ship made of traditional materials.

The combined diesel-gas turbine power plant of the corvette consists of two diesel engines (2920 * 1400 * 1290 mm each; 4170 kg) with a total capacity of 2600 kW and four gas turbines (1395 * 890 * 1040 mm each; 710 kg) with a total capacity of 16000 kW, which provide travel speed, respectively, 15 and 35 knots, similar data for our MRK in the tables.

In addition to anti-ship missiles, anti-aircraft guided missiles and artillery, the Swedes managed to integrate two two-pipe 400-mm torpedo tubes (say hello to our "Packet-NK" with a NATO caliber of 324 mm) with detection and control equipment and put on the deck a full-fledged helicopter with all the ensuing capabilities of this machine ...

But our RTOs, "if you're lucky and let the aircraft carrier go to the bottom" (a quote close to the original from a film about national fishing).

Conclusions


It's time to draw obvious and unpleasant conclusions.

If the ways of modernizing the MRK pr. 21631, outlined in the article, are realistic, cost-effective and feasible if there is goodwill and agreement in the leadership of the country and the fleet, then MRK pr. 22800 is a dead-end branch of the development of the good old "Gadfly".

Most likely, an attempt to modernize with the deployment of a second UVP 1 * 8 UKSK at Karakurt is doomed to failure. A more realistic option is to replace one 1 * 8 UVP with three 1 * 4 UVPs, and then in this case, in terms of ammunition, it will be comparable to the rejected version of the Gadfly upgrade to Project 1234.7 with Onyx inclined launchers.

The direction of modernization of the power plant of the project is most likely unpromising, the M-507 engines were very good for their time, and our industry is not yet able to create anything similar with similar characteristics at a new technological level, and no free capacities are expected.

Judging by how the implementation of the integrated tower-mast structure of the Zaslon multifunctional radar complex on corvettes is progressing, the IBMK for domestic MRKs, similar to the Swedish one, will have to wait until the first series of ships are decommissioned. A seemingly simplified lightweight version of the multifunctional radar based on aviation PFAR or AFAR should be in the basic configuration of a modern MRK, which is positioned as a small corvette.

Naturally, since contracts have been signed for the construction of 18 small missile ships of project 22800 "Karakurt", the directions and programs for their modernization should begin with the acquisition of operating experience for the first three copies that have already entered service. The release of a series of 12 MRK project 21631 ends on a wave that set the teeth on edge, the company of import substitution of the power plant of ships.

The projected increase in ammunition and equipping the upgraded version of the Buyan-M21636 small missile ship of the project 2 with domestic engines gives the prospect of creating two brigades of missile ships, consisting of eight of the same type MRK, in the Baltic and Black Sea fleets. These units will not become a big burden on the naval budget according to the cost-effectiveness criterion and will serve to increase the strategic weight of naval formations.

The contract for the construction of 16 ships must be signed in the interests of the country and the fleet.

Readers in solidarity with the author, get accustomed to the coronavirus so that together every six months you can enjoy new ships!
87 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +12
    7 October 2021 05: 52
    Project 21631 Buyan-M does not have the necessary seaworthiness to confidently feel at sea. It was created for the rivers and the Caspian.
    1. +9
      7 October 2021 09: 08
      Quote: Author: Andrey Kononov
      The upgraded ship with 16 UVP can become a real alternative to the mobile coastal missile system "Bastion", which consists of 4 self-propelled launchers (2 missiles each) and 4 transport-loading vehicles (2 missiles each) with control and life support facilities.
      The author compares the incomparable and builds his own projects. I love that.
      The rocket in Bale is different - "dad" Zircon from the same company. And the calibers (those on Buyan) will accommodate six launchers on one vehicle chassis.
      Only with spending on a car chassis, you can also not bother. You put on the railway platform how many containers / wagons with gauges you need, wagons with management and housing. I drove up where necessary (and not within the limits of the Caspian or Black Seas), fortunately, and the range of the Calibers is respectful, and I shot. After that, the calculation can fall to rest after the successful completion of the KB. Even so, the adversary will regret the appropriate ammunition in order to smack on the distant and already empty railway platforms in response.
      The main thing is that the author did not forget about the machine guns. Wrote a lot.
      1. -1
        7 October 2021 09: 34
        Quote: Nikolai S.
        I drove up to the right place (and not within the limits of one Caspian or Black Seas), fortunately, and the range of the Calibers is respectful, and I shot

        an appropriate infrastructure is needed
        after all, not from public roads to launch rockets
        they can only be used to move
        1. +4
          7 October 2021 09: 45
          What kind of infrastructure? These are not Strategic Missile Forces missiles. The calibers are launched from automobile chassis, from small ships. What can prevent them from starting from the usual railway track, from the railway platform? Yes, and such weapons have existed for a long time, they were first shown already in 2011. Caliber-K (Club-K) is called.
          1. -4
            7 October 2021 09: 54
            Quote: Nikolai S.
            What kind of infrastructure? These are not Strategic Missile Forces missiles. The calibers are launched from automobile chassis, from small ships. What can prevent them from starting from the usual railway track, from the railway platform?

            how do you see it?
            does the movement of all freight and passenger trains stop?
            probably not.
            need dead ends where you can drive the composition.
            Could these be ordinary dead ends, where all and sundry will stagger?
            probably not. protection of such objects is necessary. including to ensure the safety of civilians.
            1. +3
              7 October 2021 13: 58
              Quote: Flood
              how do you see it?
              does the movement of all freight and passenger trains stop?
              probably not.
              need dead ends where you can drive the composition.
              Could these be ordinary dead ends, where all and sundry will stagger?
              probably not. protection of such objects is necessary. including to ensure the safety of civilians.

              The reasoning is correct in principle, but "the mustache was made before us." The number of access roads of general and adjoining - non-public use is approximately equal to the length of the main roads!
              And if such an hour-CH comes, the question of reconnaissance of armored trains with air defense systems will become relevant to protect their highways. This is in central Russia between regional centers a maximum of 200 miles, beyond the Urals the distance and importance of the railway are completely different and different!
              1. -6
                7 October 2021 14: 09
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                The reasoning is correct in principle, but "the mustache was made before us." The number of access roads of general and adjoining - non-public use is approximately equal to the length of the main roads!

                what does this change in the formulation of the question?
                let's imagine practice shooting.
                Can the KR carrier train launch rockets from private tracks?
                on station tracks, where locomotives and carriages scurry back and forth?
                from the main tracks?
                no, no and NO
                1. +8
                  7 October 2021 14: 41
                  Quote: Flood
                  what does this change in the formulation of the question?
                  let's imagine practice shooting.
                  Can the KR carrier train launch rockets from private tracks?
                  on station tracks, where locomotives and carriages scurry back and forth?
                  from the main tracks?
                  no, no and NO

                  The Russian Federation is not comparable to a province in central Mozambique or Honduras. If the war comes to us, then it will be global and the laws of private property "will be shoved under the rug, more precisely, in another place where it is dark, warm and damp." However, the plans of CHL, emergency situations and wartime - this is what they suggest. Learn the mat part.
                  Now about public access roads. They are owned by Russian Railways, the rest of the non-public access roads belong mainly to factories and factories, a significant part of which is owned by the state. You think that any UVZ, ZiK or Uralmash will be left without air defense coverage. Or will they not cover them at the request of the combatants? Don't tell my claws!
                  1. -6
                    7 October 2021 15: 25
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    The Russian Federation is not comparable to a province in central Mozambique or Honduras. If the war comes to us, it will be global and the laws of private property "will be shoved under the rug, more precisely, in another place where it is dark, warm and damp"

                    that is, no special infrastructure needed?
                    because the war will write off everything?
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    However, the plans of CHL, emergency situations and wartime - this is what they suggest. Learn the mat part.

                    but what are you messing about about the hour H!
                    there are quite planned activities
                    I didn’t accidentally cite shooting practice as an example
                    and of course this is not the "learn the mate part"
                    where without him
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    Now about public access roads. They are owned by Russian Railways, the rest of the non-public access roads belong mainly to factories and factories, a significant part of which is owned by the state.

                    Thanks. I had no idea
                    closer to the point
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    Do you think that any UVZ, ZiK or Uralmash will be left without air defense coverage?

                    what does this have to do with rocket trains and the infrastructure issue raised above?
                    ahh, got it
                    a car with a machine gun must go directly to a private branch to repel an airplane attack
                2. +2
                  7 October 2021 16: 44
                  Quote: Flood
                  Can the KR carrier train launch rockets from private tracks?

                  if martial law: no private routes will remain, as well as trucks and SUVs.
                  1. -5
                    7 October 2021 16: 59
                    Quote: ja-ja-vw
                    if martial law: no private routes will remain, like trucks and SUVs

                    no one argues with this thesis
                    just read above about the subject of conversation
                    for missiles on the railway. ps needs an appropriate infrastructure
                    equipment should be somewhere, be serviced
                    in a "civilian" depot?
                    teams must be trained, exercises must be conducted
                    at freight yards or remote unattended unattended dead ends?
                    and just for that very extreme case, it is advisable to have prepared shooting areas
                    although it is possible and in your opinion: where he stood - from there and banged, praying.
                    1. 0
                      7 October 2021 21: 25
                      Quote: Flood
                      although it is possible and in your opinion: where he stood - from there and banged, praying.

                      determine coordinates, enter weather data on the trajectory, level and "bang"
                      Although you are right: CDs cannot fly anyhow over any trajectory. This is not an ICBM.
                      all RCs require terrain correction, therefore flight trajectory variations are significantly limited.
                      But with the CD it is easier, this is not an ICBM, the mass, dimensions are an order of magnitude smaller, it is easier to hide. And the security: on the same train.
                      1. -4
                        8 October 2021 02: 17
                        You do not understand the point, it's not about "the impossibility of doing this" (RC on the railway is quite realizable), but "the inferiority of such an option with respect to classic soil wheel complexes." About the nuances of the inferiority of the W / D complexes relative to the A / D-ones is told at least in museums where there are scalpels (ICBMs on the W / D) (at least for me personally, the guide chewed in detail), this is also described on the Internet, the only question is in the ability to search and process information.
                      2. 0
                        8 October 2021 11: 16
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        You do not understand the essence, it is not about "the impossibility of doing this" (RC on the railway is quite realizable), but "the inferiority of this option with respect to classic soil wheel complexes."

                        how it "did not understand"!
                        I understood everything and wrote.
                        KR on mass-dimensional x-m calmly move along DOPs.
                        But!
                        You cannot bang from any point to any.
                        Flight ONLY along mapped trajectories and for each target: load their own
                        Quote: ja-ja-vw
                        determine coordinates, enter weather data on the trajectory, level and "bang"
                        Although you are right: CDs cannot fly anyhow over any trajectory. This is not an ICBM.
                        all RCs require terrain correction, therefore flight trajectory variations are significantly limited
                      3. +1
                        8 October 2021 19: 38
                        here are stuck to these fucking cards,
                        1)they, in fact, can be changed-rebooted
                        2) at the initial stage of the flight, on their territory, they (maps) can be strongly optimized, because the "development of the relief" is minimal
                        The point is completely different, Railway complexes when moving and camouflaging use "1% of the area of ​​the map", and wheeled "90 +%", at the same time, with long-distance transfers, that the first and the second move along the railways, and therefore are identical, there are no advantages for purely W / D-shnyh complexes. And this is only the main point, in fact there are much more nuances.
                      4. +1
                        8 October 2021 20: 29
                        Not stuck
                        1.I denied that? Vice versa! The number of cards and the capacity of the brains of the CD is limited. The number of routes is limited. Loading a flight task from 40 minutes to 1,5 hours
                        2. according to FIG for the initial one. fly on the INS. KR interests "final" 1/3 of the route
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        The point is completely different, railway complexes when moving and disguising use "1% of the map area", and wheeled "90 +%",

                        some empty whistle
                        I, something and somewhere and once asserted the advantage of basing on railway transport over a car on a DOP?
                        you are not mistaken with the address?
                      5. 0
                        8 October 2021 22: 04
                        It is not necessary to load the entire map, it is enough to reload by benchmarks, and this first segment of the route can be loaded on the way, the final segment will be the same in any case.

                        Walk along the arrow above there is a conversation about the complexes "A \ D VS F \ D", above you counter-arguing "for F \ D" impossible "," it's not about private or public routes ", but about the fact that" wheeled soil analogs with the same denominator have a large numerator "is highlighted in bold above:
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        Railway complexes when moving and camouflaging use "1% of the area of ​​the map", and wheeled "90 +%"

                        Therefore, in terms of masking A / D complexes are more effective. Further, it is possible to compare in terms of other parameters, in particular, the above-mentioned "protection of the base", but there will be the same result.
              2. -1
                7 October 2021 16: 43
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                beyond the Urals, the distance and importance of the railway are completely different and different!

                Why "beyond the Urals" medium and shorter-range missiles?
                To slap across China?
                So, as he did not enter the INF Treaty, he did not leave. And still DO NOT GET, practically
                1. -1
                  7 October 2021 18: 04
                  Quote: ja-ja-vw
                  Why "beyond the Urals" medium and shorter-range missiles?
                  To slap across China?

                  good
                  1. 0
                    7 October 2021 18: 44
                    Quote: Flood
                    Quote: ja-ja-vw
                    Why "beyond the Urals" medium and shorter-range missiles?
                    To slap across China?

                    good

                    The Far East is also beyond the Urals! Tea is closer from Vladik to San Francisco than from Chelyabinsk !!!
                    1. -1
                      7 October 2021 18: 49
                      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                      Tea is closer from Vladik to San Francisco than from Chelyabinsk !!!

                      for overseas elves, a different caliber is provided
                    2. +1
                      7 October 2021 21: 31
                      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                      Tea is closer from Vladik to San Francisco than from Chelyabinsk !!!


                      will not reach ...
                      14 hours * 900 km / h = 12000-13000 km.
                      recourse
                      There only "Voevoda", if from Vladivostok
          2. 0
            7 October 2021 16: 41
            Quote: Nikolai S.
            calibers are launched from automobile chassis, from small ships. What can prevent them from starting from the usual railway track, from the railway platform?

            interfered with by the INF Treaty
            On February 5, 2019, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said at a conference call at the ministry, that in 2019-2020, in response to the US decision to suspend the implementation of the INF Treaty, a land-based option to be developed complex sea-based "Caliber" with a long-range cruise missile. At the same time, it is necessary to create a ground-based missile system with a long-range hypersonic missile
            On August 2, 2019, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs officially announced on termination of the Agreement

            On August 12, 2021, the US Department of Defense announced the creation of a new unit of the Multi-Domain Task Force (MDTF). Its arsenal will include medium- and short-range nuclear missiles Pershing-2 (Pershing II). In addition, the team will include specialists in intelligence, cyber weapons, electronic warfare and operations in outer space. The unit will be located in Mainz-Kastel near Frankfurt by October 2021
            on the railway, why install them?
            weight and dimensions are quite satisfactory for the DOP
          3. +2
            7 October 2021 20: 48
            Quote: Nikolay S.
            The rocket in Bale is different - "dad" Zircon from the same company.

            The rocket at the Bale is not a "daddy" even once. Uranus is there. Subsonic. Short.
            The calibers are launched from the car chassis ...
            Yes, and such weapons have existed for a long time, they were first shown already in 2011. Caliber-K (Club-K) is called.

            If you mean Iskander, then yes, with a car chassis ...
            Whatever was shown in 2011. you can be sure - there are no realized Club-K. Only pictures and layouts. 100%.
            1. -1
              8 October 2021 02: 28
              Quote: Alex777
              Quote: Nikolay S.
              Caliber-K (Club-K)

              Whatever was shown in 2011. you can be sure - there are no realized Club-K. Only pictures and layouts. 100%.

              Well, for some reason, they could have done and tested it, well, at least they carried out engineering calculations, BUT the point here is not "done or not done", but "we can do it in response to your plans for ***". Here you need to be able to read between the lines and be familiar with the background. Initially, plans for a "disarming strike" began to be promoted in the media, where it was proposed to track all ground complexes with CD \ RCC \ PLUR \ ICBM \ BR \ SAM and destroy them with a preemptive strike, and after that our warriors and politicians in the media posted response videos about Club-K, they say "well, disarm, and what?, we have what there!". laughing
      2. +1
        8 October 2021 00: 03
        Quote: Nikolai S.
        The main thing is that the author did not forget about the machine guns. Wrote a lot.

        The main goal of the author is PR "Buyanov" in order to justify the extension of their series.
        I tried very hard.
        And without linking with the rest of the needs of the fleet.
        And the Navy today has a very acute problem with the BMZ anti-submarine ships.
        Which can be created exactly on the basis of "Karakurt", increasing VI by 1,5 times, replacing the GEM with a quieter one (GEM from 20380 will do), equip BUGAS, submersible GAS, "Packet-NK" and 8 -12 PLUR \ RCC in UKSK ... Air defense - "Pantsir-M", helipad, cannon.
        ALL !
        This will cost about 12 billion rubles. , it will be possible to build such a lot and quickly, if necessary, they can be not only anti-submarine, but also shock - only recharge the UKSK on anti-ship missiles or "Caliber".
        And several problems were solved at once.
        And more (multiple) expensive corvettes 20380 \ 20385 are not needed in such a quantity, all problems in BMZ will be solved by these corvettes-MRK. And on the enemy's submarines they will round up, and BMZ will be able to control, and stand up for themselves against any enemy (just load Onyx), and normal ships will be relieved of non-core services.
        Difficulties - no.
        All types of weapons are available and mass-produced.
        The project is almost ready.
        This program will cost several times cheaper (construction of a series of corvettes), they can be built at Pella and Zelenodolsk, freeing up the rest of the shipyards for the construction of ships DM and OZ.
        The defense capability and overall combat readiness of the Fleet will multiply.
        The composition of the Fleet will become much more balanced.

        And the author has one, but a fiery passion - to please the Tatar shipbuilders and provide new orders ... creating some information noise on the topic.
        1. 0
          10 October 2021 16: 55
          And the author has one, but a fiery passion - to please the Tatar shipbuilders and provide new orders ... creating some information noise on the topic
          The main goal of the author is PR "Buyanov" in order to justify the extension of their series.
          I tried very hard.

          Thank you for noticing the effort and so far not openly accused of lobbying (in Russian of corruption)!wink
          And without linking to the rest of the needs of the fleet

          Initially, this aspect was not included in the format of the article. But summing up the discussion, we can summarize that it is currently impossible to place 16 airborne bombers cheaper than on the Buyan-M2 RTO. Surely, the development of road and rail launch complexes is underway, but for political reasons, their appearance is premature, by the way, as well as aviation.
          1. +1
            10 October 2021 18: 14
            Quote: Scharnhorst
            It can be summed up that it is currently impossible to place 16 airborne bombers cheaper than on the Buyan-M2 MRC.

            And why do extended calibrations if restrictions on their ground placement (CRBD) have been removed? First of all, the Navy needs BMZ anti-submarine ships, and the existing types of corvettes are excessively expensive, complex and take a long time to build. The way out is the construction of an MPC on the basis of "Karakurt" increased to 1200 - 1300 t. VI. UKSK on board 12 PLURs (16 pieces. ... Air defense - "Pantsir-M" and a gun of 76,2 mm caliber.
            Such ships should form the basis of the BMZ IPC.
            But building a new series of Buyans, even with 16 CDs in UKSK, is senseless and harmful, because at the same facilities in Zelenodolsk, as well as at Pella and the Amur Shipyard, the same type of MPC of the above type should be built. Unification. And everything is exclusively on proven production models of weapons and power plants.
            The MRK construction program was actually a forced measure due to the inability to build large ships after the coup in Ukraine. Now the power plant for large ships has gone into series, the power plant for corvettes has been worked out (DDA) and nothing stands in the way of building a normal balanced fleet, and not an improvisation on the topic of "what can I do".
            Quote: Scharnhorst
            Thank you for noticing the effort and not yet openly accused of lobbying

            And what is the wording of the polokha? Lobbying is now in vogue, many people trade for it. Companies and corporations promote their product this way. The main thing is to make an honest choice in favor of the correct and really useful for defense capability.
            hi
      3. 0
        8 October 2021 00: 30
        Quote: Nikolay S.
        The rocket in Bale is different - "dad" Zircon from the same company.
        What !?
      4. -1
        24 October 2021 00: 30
        The "militarists" have a natural desire to install on the modernized "Buyan-M2" ZRAK "Pantsir-M", which will inevitably lead to an increase in displacement, but does he need it?
        author burns feel laughing
    2. +1
      8 October 2021 22: 36
      And you probably walked along and across the Caspian? You think the Caspian is not a sea. But in vain. Ocean HTS (AHTS) with unrestricted seaworthiness take very bad storms in the Caspian. The height of the waves, especially in the area of ​​the Derbent depression, reaches 10m. I myself got into similar storms on TBSs.
      British captains who had to work on these TBSs in the Caspian (after the northern seas) said that storms in the Caspian are more evil than they are more difficult to endure there. And they are good sailors.
      1. 0
        10 October 2021 17: 08
        I will subscribe to your opinion. To be honest, I was preparing more for disputes over the energy of the modernized ship, but I did not leave the notorious "seaworthiness" without analysis:
        Excitement. The prevailing wave heights in the Black Sea are less than 2 m. The frequency of wave heights less than 1 m is 55–70% from June to August and 27–45% from September to May. The frequency of wave heights from I to 2 m is 24–32 and 40–43%, respectively. Wave heights of 2 m and more often occur from December to February, when their frequency everywhere reaches 30%.
        Excitement. Throughout the year, wave heights of 1–2 m prevail throughout the Mediterranean; their repeatability is 40–50%. From March to November almost everywhere, along with wave heights of 1–2 m, wave heights less than 25 m are relatively frequent; their recurrence rate is 35–20% in the western part of the sea and 25–2% in the eastern part. Wave heights of 3–25 m are most likely in the eastern part of the sea, where their frequency from December to February reaches 30–20%, in the rest of the year it is 2%. In the western part of the sea, the frequency of wave heights of 3–15 m is 20–3% throughout the year. Wave heights of XNUMX m and more are often observed everywhere from December to February.
        In the Baltic Sea, waves with a height of less than 2 m prevail throughout the year (frequency of occurrence 70-100%). The frequency of strong waves (wave height 2-6 m) from April to July is 4-12%, and from August to March 10-30%. Very strong waves (wave height 6 m and more) are extremely rare; its frequency of occurrence, as a rule, does not exceed 1%, only sometimes in the winter months it is 2%. The prevailing wave period is less than 5 s.
        The White Sea belongs to the rough seas. The strongest waves are observed in October-November from the northern part and the Sea Gorle. At this time, the excitement is mainly 4-5 points and more. However, the small size of the reservoir does not allow large waves to develop. In the White Sea, waves up to 1 m high prevail. Occasionally they reach a height of 3 m and, as an exception, 5 m. The sea is most calm in the second half of summer, in July-August. At this time, excitement with a force of 1-3 points prevails.
        I didn't look for the Caspian Sea - the stereotype that ships were created for its conditions is probably invincible! hi
  2. +9
    7 October 2021 06: 01
    After the termination of the INF Treaty, there is no need for floating batteries. Coastal complexes, or strike complexes Zirkon, Caliber on the chassis, are much more promising and cheaper. RTOs are vulnerable far from the coast. And close to the coast it has no advantages over land complexes.
    1. +6
      7 October 2021 06: 32
      The author also writes "the terminated INF Treaty is secretly valid to this day," but this is not so. Russia at the test site launches 9M729 at 627 km, the United States is developing the Precision Strike Missile.
      1. +6
        7 October 2021 08: 58
        Now the status is as follows:
        If the United States does not transport MRBM / GLCM to Europe, then Russia will not deploy such systems either.
        1. +6
          7 October 2021 11: 59
          This is not a status, but an initiative of Russia unilaterally. After which Putin wrote a letter to NATO stating that "we have not seen any reciprocal interest so far." The NATO spokesman replied that "this proposal is not credible." Maria Zakharova reacted that NATO's response was "another act of the theater of the absurd." The agreement has been conscientiously ruined, both in letter and in spirit, and no one owes anything to anyone.
      2. +6
        7 October 2021 12: 16
        Quote: military_cat
        USA is developing Precision Strike Missile.

        They develop a lot of things, PrSM is not the most dangerous thing there is. The Army has recently received LRHW installations for study and training.

        A missile with a hypersonic glider C-HGB, range ~ 3000 km, 2 pieces in a ground-based launcher, there is a sea- and air-based version.
    2. +15
      7 October 2021 08: 42
      At the same time, we have a disaster in an ASW, and even now we can not ensure the deployment of SSBNs and prevent their submarines from reaching the range of a missile strike of SLBMs along a flat trajectory.
      At the same time, the author proposes to build a misunderstanding under the name Buyan / Karakurt, which can be replaced by 1 Bastion batteries and 1 Pantsir-SM batteries. Moreover, in the theater of operations that plan to reconcile them, it will be more effective. If you want, you can increase the number of missiles in the launcher. Vaughn Yankees testing a complex of 4 cells Mk41

      Or a retired 4 Tomahawk launcher.


      About Visby is a separate song. With an understandable task, sink ships and submarines. For this he has everything. A helicopter, anti-ship missiles, torpedoes, stealth, a speed of 35 knots, appropriate equipment for an anti-aircraft defense, it is even possible to install a normal air defense system - all this is not available in Buyan / Karakurt. The comparison is just sad.
    3. -2
      7 October 2021 11: 08
      Quote: V1er
      RTOs are vulnerable far from the coast.
      Any ship is vulnerable far offshore. Therefore, ships must be covered by aircraft and submarines. In combat conditions, the aviation and the navy act as a single whole. This is a network-centric defense, which is coordinated from the National Center for Defense Control of the Russian Federation.
      1. +1
        7 October 2021 12: 59
        Quote: Volder
        Therefore, ships must be covered by aircraft and submarines.

        Everything is needed. But there is no money and time. Ground launchers with calibers and zircons are better than building Buyany again.
    4. +1
      7 October 2021 15: 56
      Welcome.
      hi
      I somewhere heard the idea of ​​modernizing the UKSK 3S14 to turn it into a universal one (with the ability to load anti-aircraft missiles into it). Like the Americans, by the way.
      It is clear that many questions will remain, with the same radar that will provide target designation of missiles, preferably not millimeter from the Pantsir, but .. but even with it then, Buyanov and Karakurt will have normal air defense. Albeit by reducing the volley.
      This kind of modernization could be welcomed.
      1. +1
        15 October 2021 14: 53
        Welcome hi About UKSK, very much for. Not only on ships, but also in air defense systems, OTRK. So that the adversaries do not know what is inside.
        About the modernization of Karakurt. It is quite possible to put "Redoubt". I've already seen such a project somewhere. As a modernization of the project - very much even. But only after, when there will be an acceptable number of corvettes and frigates.
  3. +8
    7 October 2021 06: 06
    Readers in solidarity with the author, get accustomed to the coronavirus so that together every six months you can enjoy new ships!

    These are the times. And if I think that it is necessary to impose a moratorium on the construction of all this "small things" (with the exception of minesweepers) and throw all the forces into the construction of frigates 22350M, OVR corvettes on the basis of pr. 11661 and the modernization of Soviet first ranks, that now I can not be grafted? Well, okay, I’m persuaded, I won’t. I have everything early honey. diversion. laughing
  4. -15
    7 October 2021 07: 09
    the author, take all the vaccinations for yourself - and mine for 2 years too! I will live without them - once you are so trusting these "doctors"
  5. +3
    7 October 2021 07: 42
    In general, I agree with the author that it is necessary to look for ways to improve the current characteristics, but ... The ambiguity of the project and the limitations of the solved problems are not corrected by improving / increasing the amount of what is, but by adding what is not.
    2 examples (more kids like "Buyan" and "Karakurt" can't stand) ...
    The addition of a keel and sinking sonar station, which will allow the ship to carry out the tasks of escorting its own submarines from bases and searching for enemy submarines in coastal waters. So, for example, the Finns did on much smaller "Hamins". In view of their small displacement, they have only the ability to detect but do not have torpedo weapons to defeat. And torpedoes are just another of the points that can be used to enhance our MRKs in the event of a hydroacoustic station installed, and that will further expand the range of tasks by making ships much more in demand.
    And the helicopter, of course. At a minimum, there should be a helicopter-type UAV with a long range for which minimal modernization is required. As a maximum full-fledged helicopter. Although there are already many questions. The same Swedes were able to place a full-fledged helicopter and torpedoes on the 650-ton "Visby" ("Buyan-m" - 950 tons). So there is someone to take an example from. Although in the case of the deployment of a helicopter, modernization is no longer enough. The project will have to be completely reworked, well, or to increase the displacement of the Buyans by adding a cross section along the length of the hull to accommodate the helicopter.
    If both of these points are implemented while maintaining the total displacement in the region of 1000 tons, then a universal ship (a kind of "Visby" supplemented by "Caliber") with a wide range of tasks will be obtained and no one will cry about its limitations.
  6. +3
    7 October 2021 08: 50
    An amateur's article in this matter, the problem of any surface ship is its visibility and vulnerability, so it is stupid to load even more missiles on it, Iskander, Bal, Bastion are more effective than RTOs in terms of price / quality / combat resistance at times. Moreover, the dignity of both Buyan and Karakurt is the ability to pass through the GDP, which does not make it possible to increase its displacement. It is stupid to comply with the canceled dmsd. If we talk about surface ships, then only new corvettes and frigates OVR, minesweepers are needed. It is advisable to place all strike weapons on submarines and coastal aircraft, or in missile systems on the coast.
  7. +9
    7 October 2021 09: 19
    1. SSBN.
    2. Frigates.
    3. PLO corvettes.
    4. Minesweepers with domestic anti-mine systems.
    5. Deck helicopter PLO.
    6. UAV AWACS.
    7. Air-launched anti-ship missiles.
    It is impossible to scatter the rest, with limited funding, and it will only be harmful. And RTOs were outdated even under the Soviet Union, and their reincarnation is a dead end.
    1. +3
      7 October 2021 10: 51
      Today, perhaps the emphasis should be shifted to corvettes with anti-aircraft defense and air defense, as well as modern minesweepers. Well, the frigate 22350, successful in every sense, should be built where possible in a large series.
      Building goofy RTOs is a crime. MRK today is just a defenseless target ship
  8. +2
    7 October 2021 10: 13
    The machine guns were funny.
    :)
    1. 0
      7 October 2021 10: 47
      well, you need to have several positions for machine guns, but in general it is more optimal to replace them with the AK-301, especially if you screw on the remote detonation of shells + MANPADS .. quite a budget air defense system will be for the ship
  9. -1
    7 October 2021 10: 20
    "Let 100 flowers bloom" as Comrade Mao used to say wassat It is also necessary to take into account the technological capabilities of different shipyards of the Russian Federation, equipment, etc. Although Buyanovskaya slow speed limits the tasks and area of ​​use in many respects. So the series as a whole should be 60 to 40 in favor of Kararurt.
  10. +3
    7 October 2021 10: 44
    a very controversial article ... first you need to understand the place of Buyan-m2 in the fleet and build on it ... The most correct thing to do is first outline the tasks, then the technique for solving them, and then put it together on different projects and see what and for what .. Buyan-M2 described in the article, although it will have powerful offensive weapons, will completely lose in all other plans ... then we will have to agree with Klimov that all MRK, PK, MPK need to be replaced by a single project ... let it be called in Klimovsk Corvette OVR. in other words, you need a very budgetary corvette with the ability to land a deck helicopter and with the basing of a deck helicopter UAV anti-submarine service
  11. +11
    7 October 2021 10: 47
    Construction of RTOs today is a crime. Why build ships, the meeting of which with any aircraft or helicopter with anti-ship missiles or any submarine will result in the death of the ship and the crew? The minimum ship we need is a corvette with anti-aircraft and anti-aircraft defense capabilities.
  12. +1
    7 October 2021 11: 23
    The construction of such ships is out of poverty. We need full-fledged frigates for the needs of the Baltic and Black Sea fleets.
    1. 0
      8 October 2021 12: 46
      Yes, frigates are already building, but we need a ship, which will close the OVR and which can be sent to the nearest seas to solve convoy and patrol goals ... in fact, we need analogs of the Chinese Type 56 ... i.e. we remove the MPK, MRK, RK and give a single ship that will allow replacing 50-70 boats and ships ... The main thing is to build them quickly, for this you need to create a budget ship: 8 UVP for calibers, Pantsir-M air defense, 76 mm cannon, then 8 TA Packet-NK, the basing of a helicopter UAV and a full package of PLO locators, and then we put 500-750 million rubles on each ship to hire additional personnel for accelerated construction

      PS By the way, to the developers of UVP, we could already make prefabricated UVP packages, so that not 8 in one package, but at least 4, at least 6, at least 10 PU.
      1. 0
        8 October 2021 23: 41
        Here☝. Good idea. OVR corvette. But the type 056 does not normally carry the helicopter. We even have a finished project. This is 20380. It only needs to be reworked for this task. I partially agree with the set of weapons. UVP are not needed because the ship operates near the base, maximum x-35, I agree with the Pantsir, the package is also needed, only redesigned for a small-sized torpedo tube, it is necessary to have two RBUs ​​as a means of PTZ, and the helicopter and the UAV must be abandoned because the helicopter can be draw from the shore, in addition, I have a doubt that the aircraft can be used in conditions of serious excitement on ships with a displacement of up to 2500 tons. And we must not forget that OVR also implies mine action, and in the context of a shortage of minesweepers, this is very important.
        1. -1
          8 October 2021 23: 48
          but nothing that the package-nk is a small-sized TA? even you have warm and soft places mixed up .. by the way .. here we do not need UVP, but as many as 2 bomb launchers are needed. that not 4, by the way, a helicopter or an uav is not needed, but what's the point of such a corvette if it cannot perform its tasks?
          1. -1
            12 October 2021 15: 47
            No. The package is not a small-sized TA. Torpedo tubes can be recharged at sea, while the Pack can only be recharged in the base.
            1. -1
              12 October 2021 15: 52
              but who is this so smart here that Packet-NK did not call a complex of torpedo tubes with an anti-submarine torpedo? Are you checkered or do you need to go?
              1. -1
                12 October 2021 16: 14
                The smart guy himself. Read an article about the cm588 launcher on Military Review, and then upload silly pictures. In addition, RBUs ​​are needed in order to cover 1,5 km of dead space because the package had a minimum firing range of 1500 meters.
                1. -2
                  12 October 2021 16: 22
                  and a couple of S-400 launchers to install ... I then read about the launcher, And now the question is ... where are you going to put all this beauty? you have 8 anti-torpedoes, and you propose to reserve a place for another 8 ... and a bomb launcher put in 3 tons and a hefty arsenal ... and where exactly should all this be placed up to 1 tons? it's generally funny to watch as they say, we don't need this, but you must shove it in ... the main thing is to create conditions for the submarine to approach 500 meters, and then happily shoot from a bomb, instead of finding the submarine EARLIER.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                2. -1
                  12 October 2021 16: 23
                  laughing By the way, you can't tell me ... how it happened that "there is a dead zone of 1,5 km for torpedoes," and the developer claims that it effectively hits torpedoes at a distance of up to 1 meters?
          2. 0
            12 October 2021 15: 58
            RBU is an anti-torpedo weapon that fires at the point of establishment and does not require the introduction of elements of target movement into the seeker. This shortens the reaction time.
            About the helicopter. The Type 056 does not normally carry the helicopter. Refueling pad only. Secondly, with such a small displacement, the operation of the helicopter is very problematic and it is impossible to stabilize the corvette in roll and differential with any stabilizers. In addition, the helicopter in the hangar is not refueled. Now imagine how long it will take to refuel it, hang the weapon and roll it out of the hangar. During this time, the boat will change course and dive depth ten times. In addition, the corvette must be used in conjunction with the base patrol aircraft then there will be an effect.
            1. -1
              12 October 2021 16: 04
              laughing yes, you are the captain, the obviousness is direct ... but where did I write about "no need for PLO aircraft from the shore"? poke your finger ...
  13. +23
    7 October 2021 12: 25
    Readers in solidarity with the author, get accustomed to the coronavirus so that together every six months you can enjoy new ships!

    I have a medical lead from vaccinations, but I'm still going to rejoice at the ships.
  14. +1
    7 October 2021 12: 36
    Not only that, the ship's duty time can be several times longer than the duty time of the land complex when performing anti-ship defense missions.
    Buyan cannot perform anti-ship defense tasks on his own, Karakurt can.
    In addition, the ship, as a complex of weapons, has its own air defense systems, anti-sabotage countermeasures, radar and electronic reconnaissance equipment with an electronic warfare system.
    Such air defense systems (like Verba) and anti-sabotage countermeasures are also available in land complexes. Buyan has no means of radar and radio-technical reconnaissance - it's all very expensive. There is a radar station Positive-M1 and electronic warfare. And the Shell will not be for the same reason. Buyan was made based on the minimum price and the ability to move along inland waterways.
    Thus, the brigades of RTOs in the fleet will be akin to units of the ground forces equipped with Iskander missile systems, the need and importance of which, I hope, no one doubts.
    The price of sea and land complexes is very different (with comparable capabilities), the ship is very expensive.
    It's an open sea, an ocean
    Buyan should not be there, he is not designed for this.
    And, it would seem, a simplified lightweight version of a multifunctional radar based on aviation PFAR or AFAR should be in the basic configuration of a modern MRK, which we position as a small corvette.
    Aircraft cannot be used in the navy, they are not designed for this. And this is not only the effect of salt water, first of all we are talking about the time of continuous operation - hours for aviation and tens of days for ships.
    I can't even comment on the reasoning about the engines.
    1. -1
      10 October 2021 17: 32
      Aircraft cannot be used in the navy, they are not designed for this. And this is not only the effect of salt water, first of all we are talking about the time of continuous operation - hours for aviation and tens of days for ships.

      The REA parameter as "time of continuous operation" is of secondary importance in such sets of weapons. Priority in the evaluation is given to "MTBF". In the Russian Aerospace Forces, the average flight time of pilots is approximately 150 flight hours per year. It's less than a week. Hopefully, the duration of ships at sea per year, even such small ones as RTOs, exceeds by an order of magnitude. For semiconductor products, MTBF exceeds 1500 hours, if critical operating parameters are not used (increased vibration, temperature conditions, short-term voltage and current overloads). In addition, the ship is supposed to use standard replacement elements from spare parts, which is not possible in flight. Well, our military-industrial complex is not so rich as to develop separate element bases for the Navy and Aerospace Forces.
  15. 0
    7 October 2021 13: 01
    One can argue for a long time about the Karakurt and Buyan, but Russia needs shallow-draft ships. Even if not 440 km, but even 150 km, going out to sea from the coast is already good. In our river school, navigators were given a diploma with the right to go to sea for 150 km. And they served the entire Arctic. The transfer of at least some kind of aid from the south to the north and vice versa along the rivers is also important. Another aspect is the possibility of forming river flotillas of Siberian rivers and Lake Baikal, as well as European rivers. Everything is possible in this sublunary world. Do you think the Japanese will stop at the Kuril Islands? I think we need to create the Volga reserve flotilla between the Black Sea Fleet and the Northern Fleet, and call it Stalingrad in memory of the heroes of Stalingrad. Nobody is stopping us from experimenting with these ships. As it was said in one vulgar joke, everything that fits into the mouth is useful. soldier
  16. +3
    7 October 2021 15: 04
    Dear author, leave this idea already. The ships are still under construction, and you already want to upgrade them. The Buyans were designed to bypass the INF Treaty. Now the treaty has lost its force, so there is no need to build these ships. They have weak air defense and no anti-aircraft weapons. The draft of the ship is only 2,5 meters. He is not a walker on the seas. Severely prone to rolling in waves and cannot use weapons. In this regard, the project was reworked and received ,, Karakurt ,, This is overwhelmed ,, Buyan ,, His seaworthiness is higher and the air defense is better. It makes no sense to compare and contrast them. Where do you want to cram the third engine into ,, Buyan ,,? It won't fit in there. Another 3C-14 module will not enter either. This ship has nothing to do in the open sea. A detachment of such Buyans, one boat will shoot like partridges, no options. On Karakurt, you can try to install in the area of ​​the stern superstructure PTZ-complex, Package, for four pipes on board. The complex is compact and can stand on the deck. This can be done. And on this end a series of kids of 30 units and build corvettes.
    In your table you are comparing ,, Buyan ,, ,, Karakurt ,, and ,, Gadfly ,,. But the last RTO is already being modernized. The old OSA air defense missile system was left on it, and everything else is new. New, more powerful and economical engines, a new gun mount of the same caliber, new radars and all the electronics. And most importantly, instead of 6 Malachite missiles, they delivered 16 Uranium missiles. This is modernization. And his speed is over 35 knots. Nice boat OVR.
    And the anti-submarine corvette can be easily made from the project 20380. He has everything for the anti-submarine. It is only necessary to replace 8 missiles ,, Uranus ,, with 4 PLUR ,, Caliber ,, oblique launch. And that is all. There is no need to put a very expensive tower “Zaslon” on it. composite superstructure so that it turns out to be relatively inexpensive, budget. Will be a good fellow hunter. Suitable for OVR and for the near zone with access to the far. .And take project 20385 as the main attack corvette. Do not build two corvettes in parallel. And from Buyanov, you need to give up and no modernization.
    1. 0
      10 October 2021 17: 56
      shove the third engine into ,, Buyan ,,

      More specifically in width, then the table shows a width of 2,3 meters, only 6,9 meters will go for three engines in a row. I don't want to walk for the rest of the width of the case of 11,2 meters! laughing In length, four Chinese or German with more complex (and volumetric gearboxes have surpassed three domestic ones in a row with the simplest reduction gearboxes on each.
      Another 3C-14 module will not be included either.

      I would not be so categorical, since official sources suggest an increase in ammunition with a possible upgrade. The same savings in volume in the engine room with domestic diesels will help ease the task. But I agree that it will be difficult.
      1. +1
        12 October 2021 17: 29
        Dear Scharnhorst, somehow you can easily and simply manage to place three engines in the MO of this ship. Directly no problem. If this were the case, then three engines would be installed. The first hulls of these ships were equipped with four German engines with a total capacity of 14792 hp. under which the Buyans were actually designed. In connection with the well-known events, I had to switch to domestic engines. We will not recall the Chinese ones. On the last ships, two Kolomna engines are already installed, with a total capacity of 10400 hp. Note that the drop in power is significant. At the same time, the speed remained the same - 25 knots. (Presumably, it also dropped.) Only two Kolomna engines were installed due to their mass and dimensional characteristics. Therefore, it was no longer included in it. Four German engines weigh 32 tons, while our two engines weigh 48 tons. The length of the German is 3,38 meters, the width is 1,52 meters. And ours is 5,2 meters long and 2,3 meters wide. The replacement, as we can see, is not equivalent. You propose to put three engines in one row across the hull, which is never done, moreover, tight to each other, like containers on the deck of a cargo ship. And yet, in your opinion, the place remains, I don't want to go for a walk. To assert this, you need to go down to the Moscow Region for an excursion at least once, and preferably on the go and take a walk, so to speak. The engine is supplied with a fuel system, an oil system, an air supply and pressurization system, a gas exhaust system, and an engine cooling system. Engines are never placed side by side, and this is technically impossible. They need to be serviced, change nozzles, change fuel pumps, climb into the crankcase to change bearings, pull pistons, change rings on a V-shaped engine. and make other repairs. In addition, there are fuel separators, oil separators, slop and supply tanks right next to it. Compressor with compressed air cylinders, refrigerator, firefighters, ballast, bilge and sanitary pumps, sanitary system, .4 diesel generators supplying consumers with electricity. Main switchboard. Hot water and utilization boilers. Marine watermaker and air conditioner. There is also a lathe and spare parts - pistons, bloodworms, bearings, etc. MO is always packed to capacity. In general, there is where to roam.
        Three engines do not fit in a row. It is necessary to push the gross lines to the sides and the screws will go beyond the dimensions. Three engines are staggered. But in terms of their dimensions, our engines do not fit there. And then this question. How do you imagine the work of three motors on two lines of the shaft? To do this, you need to design and make well, a very complex gearbox. On the two lines of the shaft, either two engines are put, one for each, or four, two for each, like on corvettes, but not three. Therefore, in order to increase the power of this ship, it is necessary to increase the size of the MO and install four Kolomna engines. The same is with the installation of an additional UKSK. Those. you need to redesign the ship's design from scratch. This raises the question, why is all this needed? This boat was conceived as a mobile missile platform for single use during the period of the INF Treaty. Now this is no longer relevant and this series needs to be closed. Here with ,, Karakurt ,, you can still do something and improve it. For example, install ,, Package ,, two pipes on each side.
        1. 0
          13 October 2021 12: 41
          Vladimir, good day!
          You propose to put three engines in one row across the body,

          I apologize, author's mistake, I did not finalize the material, considering it obvious that the placement of three motors is unlikely to be parallel to the longitudinal plane of the ship.
          How do you imagine the work of three motors on two lines of the shaft?

          I apologize again, but this proposal is not in the article. Three engines with three water cannons are mentioned !. There will be not two valolines, but three, each with its own engine and the simplest reduction gear. Saving space and weight on the hardware will be obvious.
          Installing another UVP is really a difficult issue. But it is with this main goal that the modernization of the project is proposed, and not the already existing built ships. And three engines are also not in the real engine compartment, but in new ships according to the modernized project.
          Thank you for being indifferent!
          1. 0
            17 October 2021 17: 53
            Dear Scharnhorst, there can be no question of any construction of upgraded ships, Buyan, of the next series! It is necessary to legally prohibit their construction and introduce an article in the Criminal Code for sabotage. There was a period when there were problems with the construction of corvettes and frigates and it was necessary to quickly build something unpretentious, cheap and at the same time very angry, bypassing the INF Treaty. So this project was born. MRK "Buyan" is a flat-bottomed river vessel with shallow draft and water-jet propellers. It was conceived for swimming in indoor pools, bays, estuaries and river routes in shallow water and reeds. It is a single-use mobile rocket platform. A detachment of such ships can be dragged from one pool to another, like Trishkin's caftan to strengthen one or another, greatly thinned out fleet, depending on the situation. The main thing on this ship is powerful strike missiles, and everything else is at a minimum, or not at all. Missiles ,, Caliber ,, for RTOs, a surplus weapon, for him the missile ,, Uranus ,, is good, At the same time, he has no PLO at all. An old submarine from the First World War will sink this formidable ship without any damage to itself. But the air defense of this ship knocks out a tear of emotion. It has a Duet and as many as two Gibki Art Complex Duet, which will work for 1 minute and then it will serve as an iron monument. "Flexible" - these are the same MANPADS with limited capabilities and cannot work on ship missiles. He seems to have air defense, but it is very modest. Defense capabilities are weak. In the sea on a wave, he does not look important and can not always use weapons. He is not a sailor. Water cannons are clogged in the ice. He can only walk under the coast, under the protection of aviation and anti-submarine, diverting the forces of the fleet. Whether he will be able to fire 8 or 16 missiles without protection, as the author suggests, before he is drowned, is still a big question.
            The author proposes to once again modernize this ship, on which the main engines have already been changed three times. Here you need to understand that the author of the article is a lobbyist for the Zelenodolsk plant and its design bureau. MRK ,, Buyan ,, this is their child. In particular, it is proposed to change the power plant again and install not two Kolomna engines, but three. They will not stand in one row across the width of the body. They will not stand in two rows according to the 2 + 1 scheme, in a checkerboard pattern. The length of the German engines on the first hulls is 3,38 m. And the length of the Soviet engines is 5, 20 m. The difference is significant. If they were placed in a joint along the length of the MO, on Buyan, they would have installed four engines, two for each shaft, according to the corvette's power plant. But it didn’t work and therefore only two were installed. The ship's power plant has significantly lost in power and, as a result, the ship has significantly lost in speed. But it was possible to install not two Kolomna engines, but two St. Petersburg, 507 engines. And the power of the power plant would not be 10400 hp. as now on the last three ships, and 16000 or 20000 hp. And now Zelenodol residents are lobbying for another modernization of their child. They propose to put three engines, but in order for the third to fit in there, one diesel generator is removed. Which in itself looks strange. It is also proposed to install one more UKSK, and this is an additional energy consumer, and at the same time the sources of electricity are reduced. It is proposed to lay three shaft lines. For the central shaft, it is necessary to punch the deadwood through the sternpost, for which it is necessary to change the design of the stern. In addition, it is necessary to increase the MO and redo its layout. It is also necessary to increase the size of the mine under the UKSK by 16 missiles. For a small ship, this is overkill. But the lobbyists hope to bribe and lure readers and the customer with the proposed striking power of this ship. Those. it is a redesign of the entire ship. And that's OCD and big money. The question of a serious air defense and anti-aircraft defense system will inevitably arise, and if these issues are resolved in a new, modernized project, then we will get another corvette, only shallow-draft and with water cannons. And we already have three projects of corvettes in iron.
            There is no answer to the main question, why is all this needed? And this project of the motley Buyan is needed only for the Zelenodolsk plant. The fleet does not need such a swamp-going vehicle. It is necessary to get rid of the practice when the tail wags the dog. RTO, Karakurt, is clearly preferable and this is not a dead-end project, as the author claims, but just the opposite, Buyan, is a dead end. On ,, Karakurt, you can put the complex ,, Package ,, It will stand there. And missiles ,, Caliber ,, if possible, replace with missiles ,, Uranium ,, There will be a balanced small patrol for the protection of the naval base.
  17. +2
    7 October 2021 15: 12
    RTOs are the last century.
    When I chose bi from these two, it was definitely better than Karakurt, but improvements to the PLO corvette.
  18. -1
    7 October 2021 15: 25
    Some kind of game.
    1. Visby, is it an object of envy? He has air defense systems and anti-ship missiles on only one of five ships.
    SAM is only self-defense. 20km limit. RCC, this is the level of our uraniums. Well, yes, there is a helipad. But the hangar will be for the helicopter only if the air defense system is abandoned. There is not a word about GAS, its capabilities were not announced.
    2. Seaworthiness includes not only the ability to survive the storm, but also the ability to use weapons in a certain excitement. By the way, this also concerns Visby.
    3. Small ships of the Russian Federation are needed. We have few interests overseas, but there is a desire to defend our shores. Karakurt were built from what they have and what they could do. But now the series of karakurt needs to be completed so as not to produce entities. The development of the Karakurt or Bykovs should receive an afterburner, and sustainer diesel engines, anti-aircraft weapons, and a helipad. But this should be the next episode.
  19. -4
    7 October 2021 16: 21
    And what if the S400 or S350 "Vityaz" complexes are installed in Buyany and Karakurt instead of the UKSK with calibers? There will be an air defense corvette, a good addition to the built ships.
  20. +1
    7 October 2021 19: 53
    The main effect of the end of the INF Treaty, is likely to be the boost of the development and deployment weapons banned by the Treaty. A development and deployment of intermediate range land based weapons until the range banned is very likely and it also affects to the coastal defense.

    One of the most important consequences of it is that the entire Black, Baltic and Caspian seas will be defensible from land positions, and every combat ship of every size inside these seas will be in a vulnerable position.

    In a big war time, I would expect the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea to become desert seas in not big timeline. Around these seas land operations can be expected to have the most decissive influence. The Caspian Sea being between friendly countries with Russia and thanks to the good level of the Russian air defense against long range missiles, would be a different history.

    The advantage of the Russian combat ships is that in the case of the Baltic Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla can move in and out of these seas at convenience by the internal share of rivers and chanels. The big have ships exit to the White Sea and the small can move by the entire share. In the case of the Black Sea Flett, the tensions in the Azov Sea would make that the ships, big or small would need to find safe positions in ports with very strong air defense.

    Logically, this leads to other potential consequences. It is very likely to see improvements in the Western side of the Russian share of rivers and channels in order to solve bottle necks and to allow bigger ships and submarines to use the share in the same way. Also it is possible that Russia finds another river and chanel exit to the Black sea to bypass the Azov Sea.

    Organizationally, the Russian share of rivers and chanels between the White Sea and the Caspian Sea, with exits to the Baltic Sea, the Azov Sea and the Caspian Sea, is likely to link strongly the Baltic Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla, that would have very high interchangeability. The Baltic Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla, can operate even like a single "Western" Fleet and the fact that the defense of the Azov Sea for Russia requires a double basis from the Don river and from the Black Sea for Kerch, like we see with the deployment of some Caspian Flotilla ships. It makes the option of a "Western" Fleet fairly realistic for Russia.

    In overall terms I do not think the construction of small combat ships is favored by the fall of the INF Treaty. I would say it boosts land solutions of lower cost by nature, and likely can affect negatively to the construction of small ships delaying it. Im not surprised about a lower rhythm in the construction of these ships recently. I see it logical. And I do not expect new orders in several years. I expect the current orders for both to be completed at the right rythm.
  21. 0
    7 October 2021 20: 49
    Why is the missile launcher deployed along, and not across, the MRK hull? The superstructure will already be.
  22. +2
    7 October 2021 22: 12
    I don't understand my hobby for these Buyans and Karakurt. With our current borders, they even have nowhere to base. It's scary to let out into the northern seas. Even if they do not sink, with such a shallow displacement, they will chat so that they will not be able to shoot. Baltiysk is a narrow enclave, visible and shot through. Baltika, Ladoga, Volga, Don - all this freezes in winter. Everything in the Far East freezes too. There remains Anapa and Sevastopol .. And how many of these boats are needed there? Moreover, the shores of the Black Sea are quite smooth, neither skerries, nor fjords, nor islands. Where are the boats to hide there?

    In general, it is not clear what comes out. They serve half a year for half a year on the shore, dry under the snow. Well, why? Correctly write above, the same rockets on wheels will bring more benefits.
    1. +1
      10 October 2021 18: 18
      I will try to answer as the most reasoned and adequate comment! stop
      It's scary to let out into the northern seas.
      And I agree! And it is not necessary! Beyond the 60th parallel they have no targets, either surface or land.
      Baltiysk is a narrow enclave, visible and shot through. Baltika, Ladoga, Volga, Don - all this freezes in winter.
      Like all ships in these regions, they freeze into the ice and turn into a kind of American MK41 at missile defense facilities in Poland and Romania! What's wrong or worse?
      Correctly write above, the same rockets on wheels will bring more benefits.
      Another would argue, but I agree! But is there a political will for this act, and when will it all appear on wheels?
      1. 0
        13 October 2021 00: 41
        I would look a little differently at this type of ships. I am sure that direct US aggression, if it comes to that, will come from the north. They will set on fire, most likely, from the great south, from the west. But they themselves will trample it from the north and, possibly, from the east. There are 2 months of navigation - a car of time to break through a far from echeloned defense. If you have a map in front of your eyes, it may seem to you that Canada with its islands and Greenland is somewhere far, far away. However, if you take the globe, the one on which the owl was pulled, you will see that all this good is present right opposite the New Earth. Direct communication from Canada by air is provided - express delivery of goods is not worse than Sdek in unlimited quantities. In Norway, work is in full swing, together with the United States, of course, on the preparation of comrades, imprisoned for the specifics of the north.
        Therefore ... What the hell is there a w / w road? What roads are there? Dare what is, that's all. Who will get there on what and on what wheels? Everything is brought there by sea and rivers. Let it (the boat) be frozen for 10 months. But these two months Karakurt, and Buyan, will be able to ply along the Ob, along the northern seas where it is assigned, being the same backup option in case everything suddenly and at once ... From Khanty-Mansiysk, for example, and this is only 500 km to the border of Kazakhstan, you can completely cut off the west of Russia from the east: railways, highways, pipelines - all this is destroyed at once by medium-range missiles, drones.
        Well, what about Baltic or Black? And let them be there too. Than it is worse wheeled versions or stationary points, the more so if it receives target designation from powerful coastal systems (conditionally)? Even, by and large, a more mobile unit. Moreover, being the carrier of the Shell, it will be able to additionally cover the port and, therefore, strategically important areas from the sea. Is it bad? This is not to mention the fact that this boat can still travel considerable distances and appear where it is not expected at all.
  23. exo
    +1
    8 October 2021 20: 21
    There are great doubts about the plausibility of the theoretical drawings of both ships. Even in the most democratic times, they were vultures. And it is unlikely that they appeared in the public domain. In my opinion, both ships in our time, it is not necessary to build. Instead of them, build a series of small anti-submarine ships, for the OVR and the ability to cover the exit to the sea of ​​SSBNs.
  24. +2
    10 October 2021 01: 25
    Author!!! The INF Treaty is no more !!!! Now cruise missiles can be put on trucks !!!!
    The buoys of the MTU diesel engine, which in five to seven years will begin to die without sanctioned spare parts !!!!

    What are you doing? !!!!
    1. 0
      10 October 2021 18: 30
      Alexander!!! I welcome you categorically! hi
      I just wrote about trucks and wheels just above, I'm sorry! I don’t mind the sanctioned Germans and high-quality Chinese, on the contrary, I’m pushing domestic diesel engines. And I myself go to the "Grant". But the topic of OVR corvettes, PLO corvettes and even air defense corvettes was touched on by the edge in the article "The upper class of the fourth rank" on the resource. Sincerely!!!... hi
  25. 0
    26 October 2021 20: 35
    I got to the mention of the "Korean" type gunboats and did not finish reading. Not knowing the history of the development of the fleet and the real purpose of different types of ships, try to come up with a super ship ...
    By the way, about the Swedes, since we are also talking about them: they have a museum dedicated to the battleship "Vaza", which sank due to the desire of the builders to arrange the weapons as tightly as possible in the wooden hull. This museum has an interactive installation that allows such "specialists" to remake "Vase" into a more viable vessel. And when trying to design a miracle of ship thought, surprises arise: from those materials and given dimensions, either a weakly armed high-speed ship, or a slow-moving trough with normal weapons, or, as in the original, a well-armed ship with an acceptable speed, but extremely unstable, prone to rollover.
  26. Eug
    0
    4 December 2021 09: 50
    If it's not a secret, why exactly MRK with CD, and not MRA? There are VZ-class missiles of the corresponding Caliber and longer range, aviation will deliver them to the launch point much more quickly than ships, aircraft can be based much "deeper" and, accordingly, more protected, aviation can be transferred between theaters in the shortest possible time ... airplanes .. and KR on railway platforms - a nice thing, as already mentioned here ... longer than aviation, but cheaper ...
  27. 0
    20 December 2021 22: 18
    The ships of this project are the protection and defense of the economic zone of the state in the internal sea basins. Therefore, the author's assertion that "in the context of the termination of the INF Treaty, our country currently has twelve MRKs (9 Buyans and 3 Karakurt) with an ammunition load of 96 missiles in the European theater of operations can only serve as a weak consolation ..." is not entirely true. Because to this must be added the capabilities of the coastal complexes Bastion Ball, the Iskander OTRK, as well as the s-300 and s-400 air defense systems, the capabilities of aviation and all equipment that covers our internal economic zone of Russia. Such a huge article, but does not cover the main topic. By the way, many authoritative VOs suffer from this. Especially E. Damantsev. They will write everything down to the screw, a lot of unnecessary information, and in the end they do not answer the main question and do not disclose the topic of the article. They just pour water.