Full-fledged air defense systems on a submarine

109

It has long been known that the worst enemy of a submarine is an airplane. Or an PLO helicopter, focused on finding and destroying a submarine or pointing ships at it capable of coping with this task.

Moreover, the submarine cannot feel safe, even while under water. A malicious thing - an PLO helicopter with a suspended sonar station - is capable of finding a boat even at depth. And then everything goes according to plan # 1. Find and destroy.



However, a ship against a submarine, even a specialized one, is 50/50, because a submarine in its element is capable of puzzling any, absolutely any military ship. A torpedo launched from a safe depth and a safe distance is a reality of today. Moreover, the torpedo will be smart, which will aim at everything.

With flying equipment, this will not work. This applies to all modern submarines, no matter what country they are produced in. Against aviation the submarine is helpless.

Of course, submerged submarine detection is a very difficult thing. And, the speed and quality of detection directly depend on many components, such as the technical equipment of the search engines, the weather situation and, most importantly, the experience and level of training of the PLO ship's crew.

On average, the range of confident detection of submarines by surface ships is about 50 km. Modern torpedoes travel the same distance. Parity? Yes. The situation may be such that the boat detects and attacks the ships before they can do it. Although it can easily happen and vice versa.

But when ships work closely with PLO aircraft and helicopters, the situation can change dramatically.


Aviation has a very important advantage: a higher speed of movement to the area where the submarine is likely to be located, plus, unlike ships, the boat is not able to detect the aircraft (and it will soon be possible to add specialized UAVs here) in any way, except for a periscope.

Of course, a modern periscope is somewhat different from what was on boats 100 years ago, but nonetheless. Some of our media outlets talked about modern Russian periscopes capable of looking into the sky and detecting aircraft there.

It is clear that there are a lot of pitfalls here. Periscope depth is already guaranteed detection of a boat from the air.

But it’s not even about detection. Visual observation through a periscope is a thing of the past. Not serious somehow. But the "teeth" that the submarine seems to have do not look very serious either. Russian boats are "armed" with Igla MANPADS.


Photo: Mike1979 Russia / wikipedia.org

The complex is 40 years old this year, as it is in service. Yes, Igla is still capable of catching up and shooting down an aircraft, but ...

Imagine a situation: a visual periscope of a submarine, sailors with MANPADS jump out onto the deck, trying to target something flying ...

On the aircraft, the boat has long been in the sight of the radar, along the beam of which homing missiles start ...


Plus, today any aircraft or helicopter is equipped with packets of fired heat traps. If such traps are fired not one at a time, but in volleys, "Needle", alas, goes blind.

Does any of the readers dream of being in such a situation? On the deck of a submarine with MANPADS against a modern aircraft or helicopter? I would not want to. There is little chance of getting out of this situation alive. The submarine hull is too open ...

Today experts have appeared who are considering the appearance of full-fledged air defense systems on submarines. In their opinion, today PLO planes and helicopters work too comfortably, without the slightest opposition from submarines.

This is partly true. Boats are really defenseless against aviation, and it would be nice to do something about it. A boat capable of attacking a search helicopter or an aircraft - this can greatly change the existing alignment on the sea-ocean.

But what will it look like? How can you imagine an underwater air defense system?

In general, judging by the publications, they are thinking about this in many countries. USA, Germany, France, Norway. Surely - China, but there they are extremely cautious about what they are working on for the future.

The fact that in the countries producing military equipment they say about the problem indicates that work is underway. And they are being conducted not only in terms of theoretical developments, but also at the level of prototypes.

We, that is, the USSR, where it all began, and Russia is no exception. Work on submarine anti-aircraft weapons has been going on since the mid-70s of the last century.

Even then, the designers really wanted to arm submarines against aviation. True, the path followed by the engineers was doubtful.

What is most important when aiming a rocket? That's right, radar. This is a more advanced device than the human eye, which must detect an air target and manually aim a MANPADS missile. On a radar signal, missiles fly more accurately, and the radar detects targets at significantly greater distances than the human eye.

But placing a full-fledged radar station on a submarine is an interesting idea. I like it for its completeness, but it has several significant drawbacks: first, a conventional radar will not work under water. And because ordinary waves do not pass under water, and because the radar in salt water will work for a very short time.

It turns out that even if the radar is placed in a protruding periscope enclosure (this structure is also called a wheelhouse), then it will be possible to use it only in a floating state.

And the designers dreamed of creating weapons systems that could hit flying targets from a distance of up to 20 km. Moreover, not only from the surface position (when it is often too late and the boat is discovered), but also from the periscope depth and even from the depth of the missile weapons.

In 1982, a preliminary design of an underwater-based anti-aircraft guided missile based on the 9M330 missile from the ship's Kinzhal air defense system was completed. This work was carried out at the Fakel Design Bureau as part of the Aerolit design and development project.


Photo: Sergey Vlasov

The project was not successful, the authors were unable to solve the problem of creating a stabilization system on the sea surface with waves up to 5 points. But the main thing that Soviet designers could not create was an autonomous target detection and guidance system, and even in the dimensions of a 533-mm torpedo.

In 1991, the Laser project was launched, and in 1994 - Laser-2. These were interesting developments based on the container of a towed sonar station.

It was assumed that the 9M96 missiles, developed for this project, would be placed in a towed GAK container behind the boat. The meaning of the project was as follows: the hydroacoustic station caught the operation of similar devices used by aviation and issued a command to ascend the container. The container floated to the surface of the water, its upper part was opened and the missile defense system was launched vertically.

The most interesting thing should have happened after the launch of the rocket. She had to gain height, turn 90 degrees, lie down in a horizontal plane and start rotating around its axis. At this time, the slit antenna in the nose of the rocket was supposed to scan space in order to detect targets and aim at them.

In case of a zero result, the rocket would simply fall into the water.

The project could not be finalized. We were unable to resolve the issue of turning the rocket into the horizon and pointing the rocket during rotation. In addition, the ascent of the container took quite a long time, and the lack of stabilization made it difficult to launch missiles in waves.

In the 2014s, work resumed. In 2382313, a project also appeared in the form of an outboard module with short-range missiles. Patent developments RU XNUMX for "an autonomous universal submarine self-defense complex" became the basis.

In fact, a continuation of the "Lasers" theme, the system was planned as an autonomously operating system for the destruction of air targets. The development included systems for detection, activation, surfacing, deployment, stabilization, taking into account the roll angles during waves, search and localization of targets.

This complex was supposed to act autonomously and work on targets completely independently.

Within the framework of the project, it was also planned to use long-range missiles of the 9M96 and 9M96D types, which were planned to be launched from vertical launchers for cruise missiles.

The project was not completed until the end due to the lack of a radar of the proper size. Without a radar capable of detecting targets when the boat is at periscope depth or deeper, using only the periscopes for detection, the complex was of no value.

However, it is possible to return to the project using the capabilities not of floating containers with radars and missiles, but of reconnaissance unmanned vehicles capable of becoming the "eyes" of submarines in the air. Communication with the UAV can be carried out through towed antenna buoys, fortunately, the communication technology through buoys has already been worked out.

But the most interesting project today is considered to be the IDAS system (Interactive Defense and Attack System for Submarines), the authorship of a joint German-Norwegian development.


Photo: Swadim / wikipedia.org

IDAS is a German development based on the IRIS-T air-to-air missile, a multifunctional missile, from which the Germans and Norwegians are jointly trying to make a subsurface-to-air missile.

So far, this is the only sane system in the world that can provide submarine air defense against certain types of flying targets. "It can" - because after the first demonstration in 2012, the system continues to be improved to this day.

The IDAS missile has a length of 2,6 m, a diameter of 1,8 m and a firing range of at least 15 km. It is believed that the missile will be able to confidently destroy low-speed targets like PLO helicopters, which are a very vulnerable target during search work.


The helicopter must move at a very low speed, pulling a GAS weighing several hundred kilograms on a cable in the water (the Russian VGS-3 weighs 376 kg for example) - very inconvenient for a helicopter and convenient for a rocket.

The IDAS subsonic missile is optimized to work precisely for such targets - low-altitude and low-speed, but very dangerous for the boat.

Four missiles are stored in a transport and launch container, which, if necessary, is loaded into a 533-mm torpedo tube. The rocket starts from the torpedo tube, comes to the surface, takes off into the air, unfolds the wings and stabilizers and turns on the main engine.


It is clear that the operation of the power plant in two different environments is the main secret of the rocket. But the Germans solved it and now they are bringing the rocket to perfection. Tests are underway, IDAS shows stable results during operation, the range of confident firing ranges from 15 to 20 km.

And the Germans were able to solve another problem. This is management. To control the missile, a fiber-optic cable is used, through which the missile is controlled from the moment it leaves the water until the target is captured. Then IDAS handles on its own.

Initially, it was planned to use a conventional infrared homing head in the design of the rocket, but in the end it was decided that control via a fiber-optic channel would provide greater accuracy and reliability of firing.

In the United States, they also do not sit idly by. They followed the path of the Germans and are also trying to adapt the ancient AIM-9 Sidewinder missile for an underwater launch. Yes, on the one hand, "Sidewinder" is a rather middle-aged development, 50s, in service in the United States since 1956. On the other hand, the rocket can be called an ingenious development, since, being modified, the Sidewinder is still being produced and is currently in service with many countries in the world, moreover, clearly not poor ones, such as the Emirates and Turkey. Plus it is licensed in Germany, Japan, France, Britain, Sweden and even China. In China, of course, they did without licenses.

In November 2005, the Americans conducted a test launch from the Tomahawk launcher from a submerged submarine. The test was successful. At the same time, the Sea Serpent complex is being developed, which is also being developed based on the Sidewinder.

The missile in the complex will be housed in a sealed pop-up capsule launched from a 533-mm torpedo tube. Since the capsule will be sealed, it is planned to launch it from depths of up to 50 meters. Target designation is planned to be carried out from standard radio reconnaissance and hydroacoustic surveillance systems.

The Americans have been working with the underwater version of the Sidewinder for more than 30 years and are in no hurry to go anywhere, clearly working for the result. The press reported that the complex could enter service no earlier than 2025. The deadline is pretty close, so we'll see.

So, we can say that our potential "friends" from NATO have two potential complexes capable of working against airborne detection systems.

It would be very useful if there was a domestic development capable of protecting our submarines.

It is even doubly useful: firstly, real protection will reduce the possibility of detecting our multipurpose nuclear submarines and strategic submarines on the one hand, on the other, it will definitely increase the efficiency of our ships. Secondly, the appearance on our submarines of full-fledged anti-aircraft missile systems can make the enemy think about the tactics of using anti-submarine aviation in principle.

Whoever is the first to be able to finish work on their submarine-based air defense systems will receive an advantage. There is no doubt that this weapon will be in demand.
109 comments
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +23
    27 September 2021 05: 34
    It is clear that the operation of the power plant in two different environments is the main secret of the rocket.
    You might think that yes, this missile, the same anti-ship missiles, were not launched from under the water and the methods were not worked out. And why did the author decide that there is only one engine, after all, even in the article it is written that: "it comes to the surface, takes off into the air, opens wings and stabilizers and includes a sustainer engine. ", which means that the accelerator throws the rocket into the air at least.

    Secondly, the appearance on our submarines of full-fledged anti-aircraft missile systems can make the enemy think
    Without full-fledged means of detection, but in fact there are none, what the hell is a full-fledged complex?
    1. +3
      27 September 2021 07: 08
      Without full-fledged means of detection, but in fact there are none, what the hell is a full-fledged complex?

      It's right. You can try a system of low-altitude satellites for reconnaissance.
      https://warhead.su/2019/07/29/vsevidyaschee-oko-chto-mogut-razglyadet-sputnikishpiony
      There are satellites that can see through the clouds like Capella 2.
      https://earth-chronicles.ru/news/2020-12-19-146851
    2. +3
      27 September 2021 13: 03
      laughing in general, the problem here is that the specialized institute for anti-aircraft missiles does not have access to information from the developers of anti-aircraft missiles ... in fact, it is not necessary to teach an anti-aircraft missile to surface from under the water, but anti-aircraft missiles to work on air targets ... the same caliber 3M-54E may well be shoot down any modern patrol aircraft and helicopters after revision
      1. +7
        27 September 2021 13: 34
        And it seems to me that an interesting solution would be a UAV that would launch a rocket. And the withdrawal part itself would be discarded as a kind of "step", while being returned.

        What I mean is: a container comes out of a torpedo tube or missile silo, which floats up and unfolds the wings / beams with propellers. Takes off, surveys its radar for a couple of minutes. A target is found - the rocket leaves, there is no target - the system sits down and picks up.

        Pros:
        1. There is no loss of missiles, the cancellation of the launch is almost "free".
        2. The pitching is not important for the guidance and launch of the SAM itself. The UAV is lifted off the surface and then is an aerial platform with a radar.
        3. This system can patrol for some time, fully inspecting everything up to the radio horizon. In some cases, it can avert the threat from the boat, for example, by falling into the water at a distance and turning on the interference - especially after the downing of a helicopter, when the boat is already looking for the boat with all its might.
        4. Radio communication via the buoy remains relevant. Video and other reconnaissance channels can be taken aboard the carrier.
        5. Having risen to a height, when the rocket is launched, fuel is saved - the combat radius of the missile defense system expands.
        6. You can use classic aviation missiles due to the launch air environment and the hermetic transport and launch container. If the missiles are small, then the launch can be double.
        1. +1
          27 September 2021 14: 05
          and who forbids the buoy from the boat to raise and look around? and an important point - there are no advantages over the "anti-aircraft caliber" i.e. alteration will be minimal - you just need to equip the missile with an optoelectronic detection station for guidance.
          1. +1
            27 September 2021 21: 55
            Any problem must be solved in a complex.
            Space reconnaissance + own reconnaissance UAVs can effectively detect targets, both airborne, surface and underwater.
            Of course, the very presence of a flock of UAVs already unambiguously betrays the presence of the one who launched it, but this territory is one hundred thousand square kilometers.
            1. 0
              27 September 2021 23: 29
              oh yeah .. shove disposable UAVs for what? to attract attention?
              1. 0
                28 September 2021 21: 25
                Quote: Barberry25
                shove disposable UAVs for what?

                The war between the United States and Russia will be fleeting.
                Too huge sacrifices in the first minutes of the war on both sides.
                So a day later, both sides will sign a ceasefire agreement.
                And so that the United States signed this without thinking of revenge, and it is necessary to sink as many of their ships as possible in the first minutes.
                For this, a flock of UAVs for a submarine, even a disposable one, will be required.

                By the way, it's not so difficult to make a reusable UAV. It is not even necessary to return it on board, it is enough to solve the issue of periodic recharging.
                1. +1
                  1 October 2021 07: 50
                  I agree.

                  And Russia seems not far from solving the issue of periodic recharging.
        2. +1
          28 September 2021 15: 07
          Quote: RealPilot
          And it seems to me that an interesting solution would be a UAV that would launch a rocket. And the withdrawal part itself would be discarded as a kind of "step", while being returned.

          What I mean is: a container comes out of a torpedo tube or missile silo, which floats up and unfolds the wings / beams with propellers. Takes off, surveys its radar for a couple of minutes. A target is found - the rocket leaves, there is no target - the system sits down and picks up.

          Pros:
          1. There is no loss of missiles, the cancellation of the launch is almost "free".
          2. The pitching is not important for the guidance and launch of the SAM itself. The UAV is lifted off the surface and then is an aerial platform with a radar.
          3. This system can patrol for some time, fully inspecting everything up to the radio horizon. In some cases, it can avert the threat from the boat, for example, by falling into the water at a distance and turning on the interference - especially after the downing of a helicopter, when the boat is already looking for the boat with all its might.
          4. Radio communication via the buoy remains relevant. Video and other reconnaissance channels can be taken aboard the carrier.
          5. Having risen to a height, when the rocket is launched, fuel is saved - the combat radius of the missile defense system expands.
          6. You can use classic aviation missiles due to the launch air environment and the hermetic transport and launch container. If the missiles are small, then the launch can be double.

          I see it a little differently. Some Poseidon floats to the surface and a UAV with AWACS starts from it, detects an PLO helicopter, transmits data to the surfaced Poseidon, that to a boat, a missile defense system starts from the boat. If the UAV finds nothing, it lands on Poseidon, which returns to the boat.
    3. +10
      27 September 2021 22: 05
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      And why did the author decide that ...
      He just doesn't read what the site visitors write to him. Therefore, he has the right to write whatever he pleases ... At the same time, he continues to "blurt out" pearls in relation to the submarine.
      Somehow:
      1.
      the torpedo will be smart, which will focus on everything.
      then the SGPD will help her, once it is guided to EVERYTHING!
      2.
      On average, the range of confident detection of submarines surface ships about 50 km.
      Author, cut the sturgeon in half! Or specify what to look for on such a D gathered, but under what hydrology ... Usually with such a D the boat begins the maneuver of leaving the PLC search strip. And the ship does not hear her yet ...
      3.
      Modern torpedoes are at the same distance (50 km - KAA). Parity? Yes.
      Unfortunately no. Nobody fires PLO torpedoes at such a D. And the energy range of the product is for the business center ... The Germans even "swung" for 140 km along the coast ...
      4.
      the boat is unable to detect the aircraft ...
      why so? A turntable - easily ...
      5.
      Imagine a situation: a visual periscope of a submarine, sailors with MANPADS jump out onto the deck, trying to target something flying ...

      Oh how! The commander's periscope (the second one is navigation) turned into a visual one ... The MANPADS shooter (aka the helmsman / signalman) rushed from the VU fence to the superstructure (here is the deck) iiiiii ... Then I woke up. AWESOME !!!
      6. And what about the pearl: "... homing (?) Missiles start on the radar beam (!)" ... I just want to say: - "You, sir, either put on your underpants, or take off the cross!"
      Or something like this: "... in the protruding periscope enclosure (this structure is also called the HEADER) ..." Alas, the last submarines with a conning tower (combat) were units of pr. 949. And what the author writes about is called GUARDING retractable devices. The adversary calls him the SAIL.
      Why the author again climbs into the marine theme is a mystery. After all, what he wrote in the second part about MANPADS and SAMs on submarine fleets would be quite enough for the article. Here - more interesting and there is something to speculate on the forum users. I am only opposed to turning the anti-ship missiles into a missile defense system.
      IMHO.
  3. +9
    27 September 2021 05: 45
    The IDAS missile is 2,6 m long, diameter 1,8 m

    Four rockets are stored in a transport and launch container, which, if necessary, is loaded into torpedo tube 533 mm.
    Something the numbers don't add up
    1. +5
      27 September 2021 22: 10
      This is because the author is "violet" - that is 1,8 m or that 180 mm. - everything is one for him - the numbers are the same. Don't you find it !? laughing
  4. 0
    27 September 2021 06: 28
    And just dive deeper and quietly slip away, and not fence all these air defense systems?
    1. +3
      27 September 2021 06: 57
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      And just dive deeper and quietly slip away, and not fence all these air defense systems?

      They will find.
      And that means they will destroy.
      And air defense at this moment and can save, theoretically.
      In the meantime, they have not found it, yes, it is better to hide, but then the combat mission will have to be forgotten.
      And then this boat is generally needed.
      1. -3
        27 September 2021 07: 16
        They will find.
        And that means they will destroy.
        And air defense at this moment and can save, theoretically.

        What is it like? In the middle of the Pacific (or Atlantic) Ocean, a submarine peacefully surfaced. Suddenly, out of nowhere, a lonely helicopter flies in and shouts through the megaphone: "Stop, hands up, or I'll shoot ..."
        can save, theoretically
        It's funny!
        1. +6
          27 September 2021 07: 54
          Quote: Nafanya from the couch
          How's that?

          Well, yes, since you wrote - very funny.
          And theoretically something like this:
          Not in the middle, but somewhere closer to the shore, a submarine is sailing, or is preparing to shoot along that very shore, or, on the contrary, is looking for an adversary so that he does not get to the shore, or has already found and is watching, preparing to shoot at him.
          But then an enemy plane / helicopter / UAV arrives, throws a buoy into the water and the boat understands that now they are seen and they are the target.
          The boat fires out from under the water either a homing missile or a container with a floating air defense system and that "hunter" falls into the oceans, not having time to drop his torpedo or give target designation to his ships.
          Something like this, theoretically.
          1. -3
            27 September 2021 08: 12
            But then an enemy plane / helicopter / UAV arrives,

            The only helicopter can detect a submarine only if the minister is flying on it "to nature", to take a break from the labors of the righteous, and even then by accident. In all other cases, the so-called. "an outfit of forces" with all the ensuing consequences. Something like this, ̶t̶e̶o̶r̶e̶t̶i̶ch̶e̶s̶k̶i̶ practically.
          2. +1
            27 September 2021 15: 43
            The boat fires out from under the water either a homing missile or a container with a floating air defense system and that "hunter" falls into the oceans, not having time to drop his torpedo or give target designation to his ships.
            Something like this, theoretically.


            Well, yes, probably so. But here's what confuses me: isn’t the rocket that came from nowhere that shot down the “hunter” will not be a direct indication that a submarine is guaranteed (!!!) in this square.
            As a result, a flock of waterfowl and flying hunters will instantly be sent to a given square, and then certainly a skiff ...
            No? I'm wrong?
            1. 0
              4 October 2021 23: 23
              Therefore, these complexes are self-defense weapons. That is, when they have already found it. In this case, situations are possible when the air defense system will be used in a proactive mode, counter and response. At the same time, the submarine, in any case, will expose interference (SRS) and carry out an evasion maneuver .... Arriving in the area of ​​the submarine station, you will have to clarify its place, in fact, look again. In this case, if you use the complex proposed in the above patent, it will create a security "umbrella" over the area of ​​submarine maneuvering.
            2. 0
              7 March 2023 10: 25
              If the air defense systems are made in a container-mine design. That is no guarantee that the boat is square.
              After all, maybe you flew into the patrol area and began searching for a submarine, because of the signs found. I started scanning and then a couple of missiles fly out of the water at you. And it seems like this is proof that there is an enemy submarine. And you have time to notify your people that the presence of a submarine has been noticed in the area before you splash down and float on a life raft in the middle of the ocean.

              BUT it turns out that the boat is in a completely different place. She has long been in another square, closer to the location of her target (for example, the port of deployment of your fleet). And what the pilots found was a trap made with the help of such anti-aircraft missile mines and underwater drones SIMULATING a submarine.

              Submarine detection tools are being improved qualitatively and quantitatively. And in this story, it would be preferable to have submarines develop according to a strategy of reducing their size, but generally increasing their numbers. Which, in combination with the mandatory carrying of boat simulators on board, will lead to the fact that submarine detection systems will see dozens of targets in the ocean, but will not understand which of them are real and which are just simulators.
        2. 0
          27 September 2021 20: 47
          Pzrk last century, laser dagger is our everything
          1. +1
            28 September 2021 13: 31
            From the satellite constellation. And not a dagger (the name has already been booked) but a laser Bayonet "Why a bayonet? Because it is solid" (c) DMB
            1. 0
              29 September 2021 20: 44
              And a bullet because on target
      2. +3
        27 September 2021 13: 36
        To launch a rocket is to identify yourself for sure.
        Shot down a helicopter - so what? By the ship / ships
        there will be something to embed and still add will remain.
        1. +1
          4 October 2021 23: 26
          You are wrong. The main criterion for the likelihood of hitting a submarine is the accuracy of determining its location. It is these parameters that the helicopter transmits. And without target designation, the boxes can shoot into white light, like a pretty penny ..)))
          1. 0
            4 October 2021 23: 33
            A submarine missile launch does not unmask in any way?
            (Have you heard of the regime when you cannot speak loudly on the submarine?)
            If the submarine has launched a launch, neither the helicopter nor the plane is needed anymore.
  5. +5
    27 September 2021 06: 37
    Back in the Soviet Union, I read an article on this topic. EMNIP it was in the Foreign Military Review. There was even a drawing that a tripod was moving out of the submarine's cabin, and on it there were 6 launchers for the Bloupipe air defense system in a semicircle. (You cannot confuse the BLOUPIPE launcher with anything, it looks like an RG33 grenade). The whole system was very similar in appearance to RBU600, only there were 6 PUs and they were BLOWPIPE, and it was nominated from the submarine deckhouse. How they were going to shoot Blopipe from under the water, I do not know. I don't remember the whole article.
  6. +16
    27 September 2021 06: 38
    The article is full of contradictions, and some points are puzzling. request
    Nevertheless, attempts to create an air defense system for submarines (not very successful) have already been.
    At the beginning of the 80-ies for the self-defense of submarines from anti-submarine aircraft at low altitudes, the British company Vickers developed the SLAM anti-aircraft complex (eng. Submarine-Launched Air Missile System - an anti-aircraft submarine complex).

    The complex consists of a stabilized multiply-charged launcher with six Blouipe missiles in sealed containers, a control and guidance system, a television camera, and a verification system. Target detection is carried out visually through the periscope of a submarine. The SLAM SLM launcher in azimuth is induced synchronously with the rotation of the periscope.

    The operator of the anti-aircraft complex, in case of target detection, carried out aiming and took control of the missile defense system. After launch, the missile is escorted through a television camera, the missile is controlled in flight by the operator using the guidance handle.

    Of course, against airplanes such an anti-aircraft system, in which there was no radar, and the detection of the target occurred visually, through the periscope, was ineffective. But, according to the British, for diesel boats operating in coastal areas, the fight with which was placed on anti-submarine helicopters, such a complex could be in demand. In fact, a helicopter with a hydroacoustic station lowered into the water, conducting a low-speed search for a boat and limited in maneuver is a much more vulnerable target.
    As for this:
    ... the system was planned as an autonomous system for the destruction of air targets. The development included systems for detection, activation, surfacing, deployment, stabilization, taking into account the roll angles during waves, search and localization of targets.
    This complex was supposed to act autonomously and work on targets completely independently.
    Within the framework of the project, it was also planned to use long-range missiles of the type 9M96 and 9M96D, which were planned to be launched from vertical launchers for cruise missiles.

    It is quite obvious that very expensive missiles of this dimension with a complex multichannel guidance system are absolutely redundant for the self-defense of submarines. In my opinion, air defense "traps" in the form of floating buoys, with relatively simple vertically launched missiles with an IR-photocontrast seeker, would be more suitable. The launch should take place when fixing the operation of the radio altimeter of an anti-submarine aircraft or a helicopter searching for submarines at low altitude.
    1. +3
      27 September 2021 07: 20
      Quote: Bongo
      Vickers developed the SLAM anti-aircraft complex

      Interesting information! Thanks. The complex was, of course, but the "Bloupipe" is a MANPADS and rather weak, the spirits in Afghanistan have never been able to use it successfully, as far as I remember, so the Angles were too optimistic in their assessment of the effectiveness.
      1. +2
        28 September 2021 06: 46
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The complex was, of course, but the "Bloupipe" is a MANPADS and rather weak, the spirits in Afghanistan have never been able to use it successfully, as far as I remember, so the Angles were too optimistic in their assessment of the effectiveness.

        This is not entirely true; in Afghanistan in the 80s, 11 aircraft and helicopters were hit by British complexes. They also tried to fire at ground targets, but without much success.
        1. 0
          29 September 2021 15: 10
          Quote: Bongo
          This is not entirely true; in Afghanistan in the 80s, 11 aircraft and helicopters were hit by British complexes.
          Can EVERYTHING be destroyed by the aircraft? Because there is no data about Afghan, but the score is very low. And 11 pieces are data from the Falklands conflict.
          Quote: Bongo
          They also tried to fire at ground targets, but without much success.
          For some reason, the spirits did not try to shoot the Stingers at the armored personnel carrier, so these attempts are not at all an indicator of the effectiveness of MANPADS.
          1. 0
            30 September 2021 02: 40
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Can EVERYTHING be destroyed by the aircraft? Because there is no data about Afghan, but the score is very low. And 11 pieces are data from the Falklands conflict.

            I have data on the Falklands Conflict. I could argue, but I don't see the point. Apparently, you know better than me in this matter. wink
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            For some reason, the spirits did not try to shoot the Stingers at the armored personnel carrier, so these attempts are not at all an indicator of the effectiveness of MANPADS.

            MANPADS with an IR-UV-Photocontrast seeker, including the FIM-92 Stinger, is physically impossible to use against targets that do not emit heat, and in more than one portable serial complex with a thermal guidance system, the firing mode at ground targets is not implemented. And I do not remember that I would have ever argued that the possibility of firing at ground targets is a criterion for the effectiveness of MANPADS. What is this passage for?
            1. 0
              30 September 2021 16: 24
              Quote: Bongo
              I have data on the Falklands Conflict. I could argue, but I don't see the point. Apparently, you know better than me in this matter.
              It’s a pity that you don’t see the point, but it’s strange, you and I have data on the Falklands, but only you have data on Afghanistan. wink

              Quote: Bongo
              And I do not remember that I would have ever argued that the possibility of firing at ground targets is a criterion for the effectiveness of MANPADS.
              And I did not reproach you with this, but they would not spend the effective MANPADS on the armored personnel carriers.
              1. +2
                1 October 2021 07: 46
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                It’s a pity that you don’t see the point, but it’s strange, you and I have data on the Falklands, but only you have data on Afghanistan.

                I'm sure if you set out to find out how many air targets were hit in Afghanistan all British complexes, you can certainly do it. Another issue is that the sources do not provide reliable information separately on the Blupipe and Javelin MANPADS. Both of these complexes had radio command guidance system.
                1. 0
                  1 October 2021 08: 04
                  Quote: Bongo
                  I am sure if you set yourself the goal of finding out how many air targets were hit in Afghanistan by all British complexes

                  It is clear - "there is no data, but you are holding on." laughing

                  Quote: Bongo
                  Both of these complexes had a radio command guidance system.
                  Sacramental question - WHAT? It is one thing to keep both the missile and the target in the beam, and quite another just the mark on the target.

                  Quote: Bongo
                  separately for MANPADS "Bloupipe" and "Javelin"
                  That's exactly what is separate, and what about the "Javelin", which MANPADS is just now discussed, right? Flies should be separately, and cutlets separately.
    2. +5
      27 September 2021 09: 54
      Those. in fact it will be something like mines, but against planes.
      Moreover, there are anti-helicopter mines. The first step is to adapt them.
    3. +4
      27 September 2021 11: 09
      1. The author of comments to his articles does not read. From his words.
      2. It would be worth mentioning the French too.
      https://topwar.ru/21001-franciya-sozdaet-zrk-dlya-podvodnyh-lodok.html
    4. 0
      4 October 2021 23: 37
      In general, you think correctly, however, the cost of one nuclear submarine lies in the range of 3-5 billion, the probability of its destruction, if detected by aircraft 095 (in a series of successive attacks). When using a self-defense complex (calculations for the system described in the patent mentioned in the article), the probability of maintaining combat stability increases to 0,5. Thus, 1,5 - 2,5 billion money is saved))) Plus, the enemy's losses (plane 110 million, helicopter 30 million). Something like this .... Even if the cost of one self-defense complex is about 1-2 million, and 2-3 of them will have to be used in battle, then the savings are obvious)))
  7. +6
    27 September 2021 07: 04
    A two-component system is drawn at a glance, even three:
    1- with the help of acoustic means, the boat understands that it is being searched / found and the enemies are already somewhere nearby.
    2 - a container with a reconnaissance and target designation UAV is the first to come to the surface. I think it's not a problem to shove OELS torpedoes into the dimensions of those that are on air defense systems such as Armor. And the radar is at least no worse than the seeker of long-range missiles.
    3-a container with short-range missiles comes out to the surface or a large rocket launches directly from the boat.

    It is clear that these are all means of last resort, but I agree with the author that the very fact that such means are available on a submarine will already force us to change the tactics of using search means, and by no means in favor of seekers.
    1. PPD
      +1
      27 September 2021 09: 56
      the first to come to the surface is a container with a reconnaissance and target designation UAV.

      You can imagine the size of this container.
      And also how much space does a full-fledged radar station with all the necessary pieces take up?
      Well, on trifles - the range of such an air defense system, the likelihood of defeat, detection, etc.?
      1. +2
        27 September 2021 14: 15
        Quote: PPD
        You can imagine the size of this container.

        No bigger than a normal torpedo.
        How much space does a Full-fledged radar station with all the necessary pieces take up?
        so how much?
        And no more seeker in the same caliber, which is a full-fledged radar.
        1. PPD
          0
          27 September 2021 20: 57
          A container with a drone the size of a torpedo?
          Is this a joke?
          Look at the same Pantsir, how much space does the radar system take? Are you seriously comparing missile heads with target detection and tracking radars?
          Put - develop a missile - how to detect an air target and accompany it?
          What kind of drone?
          1. +1
            28 September 2021 05: 59
            Quote: PPD
            A container with a drone the size of a torpedo?
            Is this a joke?

            What a joke.
            I pointed your finger at the existing UAV - the Caliber missile. And there a lot of things fit, and the GOS, and warheads for 400 kg and a fuel supply for 3 thousand km.
            In our case, the warhead can be thrown out altogether, or replaced with a rocket the size of an Igloo, the fuel supply is also needed 10 times less, which means that instead of a simple radar from a standard seeker, you can put something more serious.
            Look at the same Pantsir, how much space does the radar system take?
            why such?
            Look at the MiG29, how long does the radar station take there?
            We need here a few times weaker, which means more compact.
    2. +3
      27 September 2021 20: 34
      Long ago, in the years of my youth (late 70s), this was seriously discussed. But, proceeding from the fact that a battle between a submarine and an aircraft is a battle of incommensurable cost values, it was concluded that the main thing for a submarine is to get out. Therefore, in the event of an aviation hazard, the submarine had to leave a certain float-container with a rocket with a radio-transparent fairing (even better - with radio and video transparent) and leave, as they say, with "zagzigs". And the "float" was supposed to scan the sky with the help of the seeker of the rocket in search of an adversary. Scanning can take a very long time if the float has its own power source. I found, identified, the transition to the onboard power supply of the rocket - START! But perestroika broke out ...
      1. 0
        4 October 2021 23: 43
        This is roughly what was conceived in the specified patent, but the sea is humpbacked, and without stabilization systems there is no way .....))
    3. 0
      4 October 2021 23: 41
      I will disappoint you. The probability of detecting an air target carrying out an anti-submarine search by a hydroacoustic complex is about 0,3. From the moment a submarine is detected to the moment the weapon is dropped, no more than 140 seconds pass (according to NATO combat documents). So while they launch something from the boat, it will fly into it repeatedly.))
  8. +3
    27 September 2021 07: 05
    Nowadays, it is quite possible for a boat to launch a rocket drone from a radar. Which will take off from under the water and begin to loit in the search area at a minimum speed. When the target is detected, the rocket will be fired (one option) or the rocket engine will turn on near the drone itself (the second option). Something like this.
  9. +7
    27 September 2021 07: 56
    So far, we can only talk about a submarine fight against an aircraft in a delusional manner.
    I don't even understand when, at what point the submarine will start killing the plane,
    how she finds him. If the search for a submarine is carried out by plane according to all the rules,
    then the sub has no time and no opportunity to "shoot back".
    1. +3
      27 September 2021 11: 22
      It is logical. There are two options: 1. The submarine detects the operation of acoustic reconnaissance equipment used by aviation. And then various containers fired through the TA are possible, etc. 2. The submarine is prepared for rocket fire and pre-fires the air defense containers. They monitor the air in a passive mode (OLS + RTR) in a small radius. In case of detection, launch the missile defense system. In case of absence, flooding after a while.
      1. +5
        27 September 2021 11: 59
        Quote: Rafale
        The submarine detects the operation of acoustic reconnaissance equipment used by aviation.

        The initial search is carried out by passive buoys,
        their work can not be detected by the PL.
        1. +3
          27 September 2021 12: 38
          Quote: Bez 310
          Quote: Rafale
          The submarine detects the operation of acoustic reconnaissance equipment used by aviation.

          The initial search is carried out by passive buoys,
          their work can not be detected by the PL.

          This is most often not enough to issue a control center - then active detection tools are still needed. The submarine is defenseless against aviation, so the ability to answer at least some of the scenarios will raise the morale of the submariners.
          1. +6
            27 September 2021 14: 42
            Quote: Rafale
            This is most often not enough to issue a control center - then active detection tools are still needed.

            Yes.
            But in the case of using active buoys before using weapons, the submarine should not use the air defense system, but prepare the means of rescue.
            1. +3
              27 September 2021 19: 27
              Quote: Bez 310
              in the case of using active buoys before using weapons, the submarine should not use the air defense system, but prepare the means of rescue.
              Betz, hello! With your permission, a few words about ...
              It is not necessary to prepare the means of rescue, it is necessary to install the SGPD and release the submarine simulator. And they themselves change the depth of the course and make an evasive maneuver ...
              By the way, if at this time a container with a missile defense system emerges - autonomous! - and a couple of AVIATION homing products by the IR / UV spectrum will start from it, and they will begin a search along the diverging spiral of the VC. That, I suppose, this will be the very thing.
              And it is best for the area to be covered by its carrier aircraft with the task of intercepting all flying (UAVs, UAVs and other NATO crap) at the turn of about 30-40 kilometers to the submarine patrol area. This is to ensure that those dropped from the R-8A av. torpedoes, could not reach our submarine.
              1. +2
                27 September 2021 19: 45

                Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                aircraft carrier

                Of this, we only have helicopters ...
        2. +1
          27 September 2021 23: 19
          At the periscope depth, the PL can detect the operation of the buoy-aircraft river line (in the 80s we were equipped with an SRS-5 for this).
          1. +3
            28 September 2021 09: 09
            Quote: K298rtm
            At periscope depth, PL can detect the operation of the buoy-aircraft line

            Quite possible...
            But the plane can detect the boat even visually.
            After one event, we had such a "excuse"
            - "The boat has evaded tracking by surfacing."
    2. +3
      27 September 2021 15: 29
      I absolutely agree.
      When the submarine plane finds the submarine, it will be too late to shoot back ... Until they find it, then what's the point of sending uavs / containers that only unmask the submarine, after which they will certainly destroy it. Modern submarine aircraft fly high and far, with a bunch of buoys and torpedoes, with a set of high-quality equipment ...
    3. 0
      4 October 2021 23: 46
      That is why, the design of the complex, proposed in the specified patent, allows you to detect and hit air targets without the participation of the submarine, which at this time actively maneuvers and exposes acoustic interference.
  10. +4
    27 September 2021 07: 56
    The problem of creating effective air defense systems for submarines IMHO is that in the overwhelming majority of cases, developers are trying to adapt conventional missiles for use with submarines. But their problem is that for their work they need an extremely accurate control center, or even target illumination, which in the case of use with a submarine is excluded or extremely difficult. And at the same time, they have clearly redundant characteristics in terms of speed and target maneuverability. I consider the best option for solving the problem to adapt the existing anti-ship missiles to the solution of air defense problems by introducing a program for searching for a VC in a given square, introducing an appropriate mode of operation of the seeker and equipping the rocket with a non-contact fuse. Even the "Calibers" are significantly superior in speed and permissible overloads to any existing helicopters and PLO aircraft, and the same "Onyxes" are roughly equal in all characteristics to the S-200 missiles. And even the fact that the warhead is far from optimal for the needs of air defense is not a problem with its mass.
    The presence of such weapons, even in itself, will already be a huge plus, affecting the efficiency of the PLO aviation, forcing the crews to be careful and constantly be in a state of stress, which will now fly out of the water, and that's it. And for anti-submarine warriors, this is much more important than for bombers or fighters - they stay in the air defense reach zone for minutes, and the PLO aviation needs to look for a boat for hours.
    1. +4
      27 September 2021 13: 09
      I think the same way .. yes, and the warhead can be modified if necessary, not to mention the fact that instead of the supersonic second stage, the Caliber can accommodate 1-2 short-range air-to-air missiles
    2. 0
      4 October 2021 23: 54
      The first part of your post is absolutely fair. Anti-aircraft gunners absolutely do not understand how a submarine operates, and a submariner, in turn, has a poor understanding of the principles of anti-aircraft combat. The whole problem is aiming accuracy. Anti-aircraft gunners do not understand what it means to shoot "in the area of ​​the possible position of the target," and it is impossible to have constant contact with the target and maintain its guidance with the submarine.
      Unfortunately, the second part of the post, suggesting the use of anti-aircraft missiles against aircraft, is completely unreasonable due to the maneuverable characteristics of anti-ship missiles. An anti-aircraft missile must change direction very quickly, so their hulls tend to be long and narrow.)
  11. +3
    27 September 2021 08: 02
    In China, of course, they did without licenses.
    In China, they produced a K13-Soviet copy of the sidewinder, and received a license along with drawings Yes in exchange for two unexploded missiles obtained by the Chinese during the next exacerbation with Taiwan. Later, the Americans confirmed (having received Soviet missiles) the full mutual compatibility of all units and parts of the Soviet copy and their original missile.
  12. 0
    27 September 2021 08: 43
    As reported by the American publication "The Drive", the Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA) of the US Navy on March 10, 2021 published on the US federal procurement website a contract request for the purchase from the American company AeroVironment as the only supplier for two years 120 sets of Blackwing 10C small drones designed to be launched from US Navy submarines. The purchase is to be made under the US Navy's Submarine-Launched Unmanned Aerial System (SLUAS) program for several years. According to the notification, the contract should be concluded in May 2021 with the start of deliveries of devices from August 2021.

    The states ALREADY have UAVs launched from submarines, it remains to teach them to carry out target designation not only for ships but also for flying targets
    1. +1
      27 September 2021 19: 46
      Quote: tone
      unmanned aerial vehicles Blackwing 10C

      Blackwing 10C is designed for reconnaissance - for collecting, analyzing and transmitting information to a submarine. Drone assistance will be required when aiming submarine torpedoes at surface ships. Thus, an unmanned vehicle is a flying periscope capable of significantly expanding the range of capabilities of submarines.
      But this, as can be seen from the information, is not a SAM. The missile defense system must find the target itself, otherwise it will bind the submarine's maneuvering, and this is fraught ...
      1. -1
        28 September 2021 15: 52
        UAV will aim Zur
        1. +1
          28 September 2021 20: 15
          It will be difficult and, most importantly, expensive. Prinzi d.b. - "shot and forgot".
          1. -1
            29 September 2021 06: 48
            and how to know what to shoot? how does the boat know that there is an air enemy above it. UAV solves the problem.
            1. +1
              5 October 2021 00: 15
              There are several classifications: 1. With a probability of 0,3 it can be detected by acoustics. 2. by impulses of active RGAB or VIZ, 3. By the noise of a torpedo ....))
  13. +3
    27 September 2021 08: 50
    Generally, submarines with air defense are not new. Back in WWII, the Germans put anti-aircraft guns on submarines, but the experiment failed.
    1. +2
      27 September 2021 13: 14
      at that time, EVERYONE was installing anti-aircraft guns, although they used them mainly for completing the sinking ships
      1. +4
        27 September 2021 16: 28
        All submarines had guns in front of the WWII, but they tried to install anti-aircraft guns at the end of 1944.
        In total, several submarines were used in the experiment.
        This was the material on the site in the section: "Armament"
  14. -1
    27 September 2021 09: 40
    Why does a goat need a button accordion? Especially the Premier League, of various classes!
    1. +1
      5 October 2021 00: 17
      If only because one nuclear submarine costs 3-5 trillion of money. And the self-defense complex increases its combat resistance from 0,05 to 0,5. Consider the savings ...)))
  15. 0
    27 September 2021 10: 52
    Is this something like Spike, but against Helicopters?
  16. +8
    27 September 2021 13: 47
    Loitering quadcopters with rocket motors, targeting turntables from satellites, etc. it's all unscientific fiction.
    Scientific looks like this. Having detected the operation of the GAS, the submarine releases a torpedo, which is aimed at the acoustic signal of the GAS, approaches it, floats up and initiates the EMI warhead.
    Everything that turns out to be in the air above this place falls - voila.
    1. 0
      5 October 2021 00: 19
      And the nuclear third world war begins)))
      1. 0
        5 October 2021 13: 04
        And the nuclear third world war begins)

        Rather, on the contrary, no one will understand what happened.
        Now sensors for detecting a nuclear attack are working on seismic infrared optics from orbit. And the EMR from IMG is weak enough to be detected from space.
  17. 0
    27 September 2021 13: 56
    The author from where it takes, I've never seen in my life that there were anti-tank guided missiles on the tray, there were no such conversations. He served on the SSBN.
    1. -1
      5 October 2021 00: 20
      If you served in BC - 2, you might know ...)
      1. -2
        5 October 2021 08: 20
        It was there that he served. But it is not necessary to be clever!
  18. +9
    27 September 2021 15: 12
    My opinion, as a person who has devoted more than 40 years of his life to the development of control systems for units and means of air defense and fighter aircraft.
    A full-fledged air defense system on a submarine is, alas, from the category of wishful thinking.
    Even if we assume that the retractable all-round radars, which are already available on many types of submarines, will be able to detect air targets at a more or less decent distance, one should not forget that in order to use these radars, they must be moved above the water surface. At the same time, such radars, due to the small apertures of their antennas, are unlikely to be able to detect an air target at distances that ensure the timely launch of missiles and their guidance on the detected target.
    But the radiation from these radars will be detected at distances many times greater. Those. The radar together with the submarine will have a very good chance to receive an anti-radar missile before the submarines have time to understand that someone is shooting at them.
    The hope that the GOS SAM will be able to find the air target itself, identify it and destroy it is also nothing more than hope.
    The use for the above purposes of passive detection means such as optoelectronic is even more difficult, because such means work, as a rule, in a limited sector and their detection range of air targets is even less than that of modern submarine radars.
    And the last thing. The intentions to equip submarines with an effective air defense system were put forward even before WWII, but for objective reasons, these intentions remained and there is no reason that the situation could radically change for the better in the foreseeable future.
    1. 0
      1 October 2021 05: 48
      Very likely the problem will not be solved this way. With the development of UAVs the submarines can have access to their own early warning and control systems (AWACS). And the development of UCAVs prove that is perfectly possible the develpment of "missiles" or if you prefer UCAVs launched from submarines. Loitering UAVs and UCAVs, even with decent range and endurance flying, are not something new. And neither would be new to see UCAVs armed with Air-Air missiles.

      All this is coming in the following years. Almost all the necessary components are a reality today. Only is necessary to put it all together in the correct form. And this will not take long.
    2. 0
      5 October 2021 00: 25
      The author of the post is ABSOLUTELY Right, but the complex should not be placed on board the submarine, but in a pop-up container equipped with stabilization systems on waves, and the search for the target and the launch of missiles should be carried out automatically from the surface of the water. Check out the patent cited in the article.
  19. -1
    27 September 2021 15: 59
    There is a small 9M100 missile defense system, a range of 15 km, an altitude of 8 km. She has an active, infrared seeker. After the launch, the rocket itself captures the target and turns on it. She does not need external target designation, and she does not identify targets. It is at its base that we need to make an underwater launch rocket for the submarine. It should start immediately after the boat detects the operation of the acoustic means of enemy aircraft. And if you release some kind of pop-up container with a radar, unfold it, then scan the space, detect targets, direct the missile, then during this time you can already get a torpedo into the side. It takes precious time. It is necessary to refine the underwater launch, the range of the target and the missile's IGSN. It seems to me that it is necessary to go in this direction to organize the air defense of the boat.
    1. +2
      27 September 2021 16: 52
      There is a rocket, but for ALL SAMs it is necessary to set the initial search square.

      Hence, if a rocket-torpedo jumps out from under the water, then it must choose the correct azimuth at least where to fly from the buoy. And with a probability of more than 90%, the randomly chosen direction will be incorrect, and if we also take into account the vertical angle, then the probability of a miss will approach 100%
    2. 0
      5 October 2021 00: 30
      I disagree. A floating container with a radar and SEVERAL small missiles will provide not only a surface launch, regardless of the submarine's maneuvering, but also a long-term "umbrella" cover of its maneuvering zone. And you need to look at the rocket you proposed .... Maybe it will do. I did calculations for a rocket from "shell 1s"
  20. -2
    27 September 2021 17: 33
    It has long been known that the worst enemy of a submarine is an airplane. Or an PLO helicopter, focused on finding and destroying a submarine or pointing ships at it capable of coping with this task.

    No, the worst enemy of the Russian Navy is a Russian official who destroyed more ships than all NATO put together.
    Air defense on submarines will sooner or later, early in the west and very late, if at all in Russia. Their work has been going on systematically for decades and there is a result in the hardware. In Russia, while wishes and dreams. Even more necessary and much simpler systems for submarines have not been able to do for decades - I'm talking about modern simulators and counter-torpedoes. "Package" where, the main biathlete of a large caliber did not serve in the army?)) Our submarines are defenseless against any torpedo attack, everyone knows everything, but as usual all of us, except the submariners themselves.
  21. +1
    27 September 2021 20: 24
    I feel the "all-prophetic" notes in the author's article! "Poor sailors in a submarine, planes will find, drown, soak"! Effectively drown and soak, only a ship sharpened to fight submarines! For a submarine, this is the most dangerous enemy, then the enemy's submarine. And now let's imagine a hypothetical picture that the United States has made a foolish cut of its surface and submarine fleet, all to zero, even inflatable motor boats have not been left! How effective will the anti-submarine barrier be, thanks solely to the Orions and Poseidons ?!
    1. 0
      2 October 2021 10: 42
      Quote: Vladimir Lenin
      All-European "notes in the author's article I feel!" Poor sailors on a submarine, planes will find, drown, soak "! Effectively drown and soak, only a ship sharpened to fight submarines! For a submarine, this is the most dangerous enemy, then the enemy's submarines. And now Let's imagine a hypothetical picture that the United States has cut its surface and submarine fleet to zero, even inflatable motor boats have not been left behind! How effective will the anti-submarine barrier be, thanks solely to Orions and Poseidons ?!

      It is worth separating 2 tasks at once.
      1) "passive" patrolling in peaceful (or relatively) time for the purpose of creating an "anti-submarine barrier" or increasing situational awareness in the region;
      2) active actions aimed at search and destruction;

      In order to shoot, you first need to find.
      How fast is the surface ship moving and how fast is the plane moving?
      Applying the mathematical apparatus of the 5th class, you can easily get an idea of ​​what means it is more effective to search in a wide strip and, accordingly, to understand which of them has a great chance of finding the submarine first.

      Or else, in Vilaribbo, they cut the lawn with nail scissors, and in Vilabaggio, with a healthy lawn mower)
  22. 0
    27 September 2021 23: 31
    Plagiarism, graphomania, confusion, in general, buffoonery.
  23. 0
    28 September 2021 00: 43
    our potential "friends" from NATO have two potential complexes capable of working against airborne detection systems

    ... and both of them are useless due to our almost complete lack of such funds.
    Who are they armed against? China?
  24. +1
    28 September 2021 12: 45
    Regarding Western developments: nobody canceled the topic of cutting the budget. And the topic for this is excellent: everything is complicated, unpredictable, but long and very expensive. So don't panic ...
    About drones from pl: they are detected. Since there is a drone, it means that the submarine is nearby: catch her
  25. 0
    28 September 2021 20: 02
    Igla's? manpads? No, it is a quad packed VLS launched Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) with a AMRAAM seeker that is activated at launch. US subs can hear above the water as well and direction of sound.
  26. BKa
    -1
    28 September 2021 21: 31
    All this is a waste of money ... or money laundering. The basis of the submarine's action is secrecy. SAM start - loss of stealth and, as a result, the destruction of submarines not far from the start of the SAM.
    1. 0
      4 October 2021 00: 31
      Let me disagree. The area of ​​possible positions of the submarine is always known to the enemy. It differs only in the value of the standard deviation. To clarify the location of the submarine and send anti-submarine aviation. I declare this to you, as a former submariner, and the author of an integral part of the research work on this very topic.)) And the author of the patent RU 2382313 mentioned in the text. , it is about self-defense when the boat has already been spotted.
  27. 0
    28 September 2021 22: 19
    Thank you Roman!
    It was very informative.
  28. -1
    29 September 2021 02: 35
    In my opinion, this is nonsense. Air defense of a submarine is insanity.
  29. 0
    29 September 2021 09: 05
    Something pvsh appeared on the last boats of the French.
  30. 0
    1 October 2021 05: 22
    There is no doubt that submarine air defense will be achieved.

    There is no doubt that the use of UAVs and UCAVs from submarines will be achieved.
  31. 0
    4 October 2021 00: 24
    As the author of the aforementioned patent RU 2382313, I have the honor to inform you that no development has been carried out on this design. What is "laser 1" or "laser 2", I do not know at all .... There was a competitive research project in which my project (developed individually) and the "torch" project took part. I think everyone understands who won ... I was not even invited to the competition itself ... However, later, in 2018, I won in two nominations of the competition of the Foundation for Advanced Study, held jointly with the Academy of the General Staff, where the topic is indicated was part of a more global project to counter the "Global Strike" and hypersonic air attack. But this project was not needed by anyone .... As for the article, the author did not work deeply on the topic, many statements do not correspond to reality. The impression was that the author was completely unfamiliar with the principles of the combat use of submarines. I would advise you to study at the command faculty of the ESSO of the Navy. No offense....)
  32. 0
    4 October 2021 19: 38
    The SAM for the submarine. There is one major drawback. Launching them, demasking the position of the boat. The rocket can and will shoot down the helicopter. But the main group will know that there is an enemy boat in this square. It's another matter if you organize the work of such complexes in the image and likeness of mines. The complex is launched from a standard torpedo tube. The main part of the complex is in a container and drifts at a certain depth of 5-10 m. Suppose. A small buoy with a compact radar will float on the surface. The buoy is fastened to the container with a cable. As soon as a low-flying and slow target (like a PLO aircraft / helicopter) enters the mine action zone, the station gives the command to launch the rocket. It rises from the water to the surface with an accelerator by about 15-20 meters. There it is already oriented in the direction of the target and flies to meet it. The enemy will not know if this minute was set just now or a couple of days ago. Accordingly, it is not clear where the carrier that installed it is located.
    1. +1
      5 October 2021 00: 36
      You are right, a similar system was also developed by me. Type in the Internet "anti-aircraft autonomous universal complex PAUK PPU"))
  33. 0
    6 October 2021 20: 05
    The towed identification system has been around for a long time - it is not necessary to raise the periscope ... and the suppression system is also available in the form of a box with a surprise ...
  34. 0
    7 November 2021 20: 21
    Optimally small and inexpensive fiber drone from depth for detection. And then, with data loaded from a separate rechargeable silo, launch a small rocket with a range of up to 40 km. Up to 5 points is real. And after 5 points and higher it is very difficult to find a boat, unless you know for sure that it is in the area. In 87 they portrayed a convoy, they were escorted by the TFRs and a scout in Biscay. It was storming over six points. The boats found us and attacked, of course, with 100 percent "destruction" of the convoy. We didn't find them by any means of nichrome. A search helicopter will fly with a submerged station in such weather that it will play roulette with a revolver. But to fill the sea with cheap radio beacons, like two fingers, even from the same old "Orion" in any weather. No MANPADS will help here.
  35. 0
    29 November 2021 08: 43
    The novel grew stronger - the oaks were cracking.
    Such an atomic submarine has been sitting for the third month without surfacing at a depth of 3 meters, listening to the fish, and then once, some Superhornet arrives and bang it.

    Asking questions about how to direct an air defense system from a submarine is definitely not the author.
  36. 0
    10 December 2021 15: 07
    The problem, in fact, is not even that the submarine cannot shoot down aircraft, but that she does not see them and does not know if they are nearby. Therefore, the main thing is to equip the submarine with aircraft detection means. But this is not easy to do ... It is difficult to ensure secrecy.
  37. 0
    16 December 2021 22: 24
    Dear author. The problem is not that we do not have such developments, believe they have been in the archives of mines for a long time. defense. Why do they not realize they do not see financial quick benefits, corruption does not allow young talents to develop to see the prospects, for the developments introduced are not real junior employees, but uncles with scientific degrees who are all wood except money, true Russia.
    I am a mediocre engineer, I left my profession after graduating from the academy in the XNUMXs. I wrote a job to transfer to a military university.
    A submarine equipped with 4 drones and two fighters fired from a depth of 10 m in capsules similar to an egg shell. (The wings are folded, opening after reaching a height of 24m developed by the USSR in the 80s), of course, the drone took the Israeli prototype as a model. At that time, the functions of the drones were of an observation nature. Controlling with a float on the surface that looks like we can't swim.) Self-destruct after 4 hours.
    Rap)) if you scatter the functions into hundreds of plastic half-cakes, add the sound of the submarine's reverse to the trained dolphins, the Americans with their brain functions according to the given algorithms will be bo-bo. And the submarine is not in the combat zone.
  38. 0
    6 January 2022 14: 28
    The specifics of using submarines requires secrecy from them, and it can only be ensured by the depth of immersion and the absence of unmasking factors. So if you want to protect the submarine from strikes from the sky, then you should keep a surface ship with air defense equipment somewhere near the submarine on the sea surface.