Vertical take-off: a dead-end direction or the future of combat aviation

286

Vertical take-off and landing aircraft (VTOL) - we can say that this type of aircraft was practically born extremely difficult. No, there were a great many prototypes, projects and ideas, but when it came to practice, all of them often turned out to be unviable.

Vertical take-off: a dead-end direction or the future of combat aviation

In pursuit of vertical takeoff and landing, the designers offered the most extravagant solutions

In fact, only the British VTOL "Harrier", which in several versions were in service with the British and American armed forces (AF), received truly practical use and confirmed combat use.




"Harriers" showed themselves quite well in the service of the British and American Armed Forces


Without VTOL "Sea Harrier" Great Britain could well have lost the battle for the Falkland Islands

Of course, you can recall the Soviet VTOL Yak-38 and the American F-35B, but the first, in fact, was not brought to mind, and the second is just starting its way, and has not yet shown itself in real combat (ironic enough that the fact that while the combat experience of the Yak-38 and F-35B is comparable: they both bombed the mujahideen in Afghanistan).

When we talk about vertical takeoff and landing aircraft, we also mean short takeoff and vertical landing aircraft, to which many refer to the F-35B. In fact, this is not entirely true - the F-35B can carry out both vertical landing and vertical takeoff - doubters can watch this process on video:


Vertical takeoff F-35B

Another question is that in the vertical take-off mode, the combat load can be maximally limited, and the range of action is also reduced, but nevertheless, the F-35B has the possibility of vertical take-off. Moreover, a short takeoff run is in some respects more difficult than a vertical takeoff. On the Soviet Yak-38, takeoff with a short takeoff run was generally considered impossible from the outset due to the complexity of synchronizing the operation of three jet engines - one main and two lifting ones.


Soviet Yak-38 mastered vertical takeoff earlier than short takeoff

So the short take-off and vertical landing mode was chosen for the F-35B as the main one, but not as the only one, due to the need to increase the combat load and range.

As soon as it comes to VTOL aircraft, a flurry of criticism often falls on them, on the basis of which one might think that these machines are generally unsuitable for combat. But in fact, this is far from the case.

The technology itself for the development of VTOL aircraft is really more complicated than that of aircraft of the classical design, and it is quite logical that they lagged behind for a long time in development, but now the gap between classic aircraft and VTOL aircraft is no longer so great.

Consider classic examples of VTOL criticism.

Price


High cost compared to classic aircraft.

This argument is easy enough to argue. We have a wonderful American fifth-generation F-35 light fighter program that comes in three versions - the classic F-35A for the US Air Force, the F-35C carrier-based aircraft for the US Navy. and VTOL F-35B for the command of the Marine Corps (ILC). Public information about the cost of these machines for different parties is available on Wikipedia.


Cost of F-35 fighters of various production batches

It can be noted that the cost of the F-35B VTOL aircraft in some batches was almost equal to the cost of the classic F-35A and even lower than the cost of the aircraft carrier version of the F-35C.

Why has the relative value of the F-35B increased in the last batch?

It can be assumed that the fact is that production is primarily optimized for the large-scale production of the F-35A. The difference in cost between the F-35B and the F-35C is no longer that great. It is clear that VTOL aircraft should be more expensive than a classic aircraft, but the difference will be about 10% or even less, as can be seen from some batches.

An increasing part of the cost of combat aircraft is the cost of airborne electronic equipment (avionics), and it is identical for all three aircraft. Even the engine is the heart of the aircraft; the F-35A, F-35B and F-35C aircraft are largely unified.

It is often said that it was the development of VTOL aircraft within the F-35A, F-35B and F-35C line that caused the increase in cost and delays in the program as a whole - they say, if there were no unification with VTOL aircraft, the rest of the aircraft would be better and cheaper.

It is unlikely that this is the case.

As mentioned above, the most complex part of modern military equipment is avionics and software, as an integral part of it.

Engine?

But it is unified, in addition, the delays in the F-135-PW-600 engine for the F-35B were not supposed to affect the F135-PW-100 and F135-PW-400, intended, respectively, for the F-35A and F-35C ... Do not forget that the most difficult part is the rotary nozzle, the Americans supposedly "borrowed" from the Soviet Р79В-300 (product 79).


The R79V-300 engine for the Yak-141 VTOL aircraft - the collapse of the USSR allowed the United States to save tens of millions of dollars and years of work on the development of an engine for VTOL aircraft

Difficulty taking off and landing


It is believed that VTOL aircraft are much more difficult to control at the take-off and landing stage, in addition, the risks for the pilot in these modes are significantly higher.

And so it was. Earlier.

At present, the level of automation of take-off and landing processes can be so high that a vertical or short take-off, like a vertical landing, will be much easier than on a classic aircraft. To understand this, it is enough to look at the graceful landing of the first stages of reusable launch vehicles, carried out in a fully automatic mode.


Simultaneous landing of boosters of the Falcon Heavy launch vehicle

In the future, the level of automation will only increase.

On VTOL aircraft, it will be easier to take off from a swinging platform (ship) and land on it, it will be easier to take off in bad weather conditions - strong winds, limited visibility, take off from a spot, with a short takeoff run, from a springboard or in the normal horizontal takeoff mode.


F-35B takes off from the springboard - during the tests, the weight and size models of four Paveway IV bombs and two ASRAAM B-B missiles were suspended on the plane

What does this mean in practice?

That in the conditions of a sudden enemy attack, when the air group must be lifted into the air as quickly as possible, part of the VTOL aircraft can be launched from a "catapultless" aircraft carrier using a springboard with full ammunition, and the other part can take off with a short takeoff run without using a springboard, so as not to stand in queues for the springboard.

And part of the VTOL aircraft can completely leave, using vertical takeoff, at least in order not to turn into a target on board the ship, but, most likely, they will also be able to carry a certain amount of ammunition, for example, several missiles Air-to-air (B-B).

The ability to create rapidly deployable land airfields with a springboard can be useful when organizing an advanced air base somewhere in mountainous or wooded areas, with limited space for a full-size runway (runway).


Takeoff of combat aircraft from a ground springboard


Takeoff of the F-35B from the ground springboard

Classic planes can too


This refers to the argumentation that modern aircraft can also take off with a fairly small takeoff run.

This is partly true, but there are nuances.

For most fighters, the takeoff run without the use of afterburner is 500-700 meters or more, with the use of afterburner, according to various sources, this value can be reduced to 250-350 meters.

But with what combat load and what fuel consumption?

The Su-35 with a normal take-off weight and full afterburner has a takeoff run of 400-450 meters, for the Su-57 it is 350 meters. The F-35B has a short take-off run of 161 meters, with a springboard - 137 meters.

At the same time, for example, the Yak-141 could take off in six ways:

- in the usual way, when the nozzle of the lift-sustainer engine (PMD) maintains a horizontal position, and the lift motors are turned off;

- with a short take-off run of about 120 meters, when, after the start of the movement, the lifting motors are started, and the PMD nozzle changes the thrust direction angle to 62 degrees;

- with a short take-off run of about 60-80 meters, with the use of retarding devices (chassis wheel retarders);

- with an ultra-short take-off run up to 6 meters, with wheel restraints, with a PMD nozzle previously deployed at 62 degrees and with running lifting motors;

- using a springboard;

- vertical takeoff.

There is no need to talk about landing - classic aircraft will not even come close in this parameter to VTOL aircraft. Even if we remember the use of aerofinishers on aircraft carriers, the landing procedure, especially on a swinging platform, using aerofinishers is much more difficult than landing a VTOL aircraft, and automating it is also much more difficult (albeit possible), and the load on the aircraft and its payload - significantly higher.


Landing a classic aircraft on an aircraft carrier is much more difficult than landing a VTOL aircraft

The length of the Su-35 with a braking parachute is 600 meters.

A number of sources say that the Su-57 has a run length of 100 meters, but it is not yet clear how such a significant reduction in the run length was achieved (if achieved), how hard the landing is obtained in this mode, and is it possible with a payload?

According to other sources, the range of the Su-57 is two times less than that of the Su-35, that is, about 250-300 meters, which already seems closer to reality.

In any case, if the VTOL aircraft is able to land on the "patch", then the classic aircraft needs to go to the landing glide path and sit on the runway in a certain place with a sufficiently high accuracy. Even if the run length of 100 meters is reached, touching accuracy at a certain point will be added to it, the need for a runway reserve for emergency situations, that is, in the end we will still get at least 200-300 meters. And if the Su-57 has a run length of 250-300 meters, then a runway of the order of 400-500 meters will be required.

With regard to the firmness of the fit.

Modern high-precision weapon quite sensitive to operating conditions - vibrations, temperature drops, shocks. Each weapon is designed for a certain (conditional) number of takeoffs and landings. The harder the landing, the higher the chance that expensive weapons will fail. With a high probability, landing on an aircraft carrier is a rather serious test not only for the aircraft, but also for its unused combat load.

The VTOL aircraft can return the payload with much lower loads - just visually compare the landing hardness of the F-35C and F-35B.

Huge fuel consumption, lower combat load, poor flight characteristics


It cannot be denied that with vertical takeoff, both the combat load and the range are reduced.

But here, as we said earlier, it all depends on the situation - sometimes it is better to take off quickly with a minimum of ammunition and with a small amount of fuel, than turn into a heap of metal during a massive impact on a ship or a home airfield.

And with what combat load do combat aircraft fly now?

For example, the F-35B can carry four AIM-120 V-B missiles in its internal compartments, which will weigh less than 800 kilograms, with a maximum payload of 6 800 kilograms, most likely, with such ammunition it will take off vertically, even if it will lose about 30% range (by analogy with the Yak-38 with vertical takeoff).


The combat load of modern fighters is more often limited by the volume of internal compartments than by the mass of weapons.

With regard to takeoff with a short takeoff run, here the fuel consumption should already be comparable to the fuel consumption during takeoff of classic aircraft using afterburner.

At the same time, VTOL aircraft will have a take-off run of about 120-160 meters, while classic aircraft will have about 250-350 meters, that is, twice as much. And the combat load can already be much higher if it is not maximum.

When they talk about VTOL aircraft, they often mention a low combat load in principle. However, this is not quite true.

It's just that they often compare combat vehicles of different weight categories and different time periods.

The combat load of the Yak-38, which entered service in 1977, was 1 ton - during vertical takeoff and 1,5 tons - during takeoff. Its maximum takeoff weight during takeoff / vertical takeoff was 11,3 / 10,3 tons. It should be compared with the MiG-23ML, which has been mass-produced since 1976 (it should be understood that the MiG-23ML was the result of a long work on the errors of the basic MiG-23).

И что же?

With a maximum takeoff weight of the MiG-23ML of 20 tons, its combat load is only 2 tons, that is, almost proportional to the maximum weight / combat load of the Yak-38.

Yes, of course, the MiG-23 has a much larger range and speed, better than avionics, but do not forget that the MiG-23 was the result of a long evolution of classic jet fighters, while the Yak-38 became the first serial Soviet VTOL aircraft.

When the first jet aircraft appeared, they were also inferior in many respects to the used piston aircraft.

But what if we compare the Yak-141 and the MiG-29?


Flight performance (LTH) Yak-141 and MiG-29

It can be seen that the flight characteristics of the Yak-141 and MiG-29 are already much closer than those of the Yak-38 and MiG-23ML. At the same time, do not forget that the work on the MiG-29 and Su-27 aircraft received much more attention and funding than the Yakovlev design bureau and their VTOL aircraft.

The characteristics of the F-35A, F-35B and F-35C are not so radically different. Perhaps the most noticeable disadvantages of the F-35B include only a slightly shorter flight range.


Performance characteristics and flight characteristics of the F-35A, F-35B and F-35C (ru.wikipedia.org)

But it must be remembered that the F-35B received much less attention than the F-35A and F-35C.

What if the priority was given to the F-35B?

What if this aircraft were created without compromise with the "land" and aircraft carrier options?

In my opinion, when creating modern samples of VTOL aircraft, the difference with their classical counterparts in terms of performance characteristics and performance characteristics can reach 10% or less.

Not purchased or sold


They reproach the VTOL aircraft with the fact that they are little purchased on the international arms market and purchased for their own armed forces, for example, the same F-35B.

But who buys the F-35 - US vassals?

Who are now exactly ready for a serious war? Who among the buyers of aircraft of the F-35 line fights normally, except Israel? And Israel, how long has it fought with a serious enemy?

The Arabs are now not at all what they were during the "Seven Day War". One gets the impression that weapons are now more often bought not for war, but for political and economic reasons.

Nevertheless, there are VTOL aircraft in the USA. The Soviet Union also actively developed this direction. If the USSR had not collapsed, it is possible that Great Britain would have developed its own replacement for the Harier.

As for the rest of the countries, for example, the PRC, after all, we have already said earlier that the VTOL aircraft are very difficult - China copes well with copying other people's technologies, but even its conventional jet engines are not yet very good, what can we say about a more complex engine for VTOL aircraft?

It is possible that China simply does not yet have the technological capabilities to create VTOL aircraft. What if "tomorrow" they decide this issue and start riveting VTOL aircraft in the hundreds?

Conclusions


During World War II, the leading warring states actively built huge battleships, spending a significant part of defense costs on this. At the same time, the realities of hostilities showed absolute superiority aviation, aircraft carriers and submarines on the fields of naval battles.

Is this not an indicator of the deepest delusions that can get in the way of the development of promising types of weapons?

Nowadays satellite reconnaissance goes to a fundamentally new level.

What if airfields become extremely vulnerable?

What if the destruction of "stationary" airfields will require an interval of about a day, for airfields deployed on sections of highways and highways, about several days, while it will take about a week to find and destroy a hidden airfield for VTOL aircraft?

After all, a 100–150 meter site is much more difficult to locate than a 500 meter runway, not to mention “stationary” aerodromes with kilometers of runways. Yes, and false "short" airfields can be deployed in hundreds, if not thousands.

What if, as a result of hostilities, strong opponents simply knock out all aircraft from each other with long-range weapons on airfields in the first weeks?

Then expensive precision weapons will run out. Will the ground war be left without air support from both sides?

How long will the hostilities last in this format?

Article Is a repetition of World War II possible in the realities of the XNUMXst century? considered the reasons why prolonged offensive hostilities may not be possible in our time.

And if one of the opponents builds an effective VTOL aircraft, learns to quickly deploy real and false mobile airfields for them? Will not only he be left with the combat aviation as a result?

A separate conversation, to which we will return later, is the ratio of cost and efficiency of a full-size aircraft carrier and an aircraft carrier for VTOL aircraft.

This article is not intended to prove the absolute superiority of VTOL aircraft over classic combat aircraft. On the contrary, in my opinion, air supremacy will be won by heavier classic combat vehicles, but light combat aircraft will also be of great importance in solving this problem.

The prospects for combat aviation in the medium term were previously discussed in the article Light or heavy, manned or unmanned: how combat aviation will develop in the XNUMXst century.

So, in addition to the lower cost of purchase and operation, which light combat aircraft can have in comparison with heavy ones, the advantage is the possibility of implementing light combat aircraft in the VTOL variant. This will significantly increase their survivability in the face of the enemy delivering high-precision weapons strikes to the entire depth of the territory at stationary objects - airfields and airbases.

In this article, we examined the real and perceived shortcomings of VTOL aircraft. In the next, we will study promising technical solutions and advantages that promising VTOL aircraft can receive in comparison with their predecessors and with classic aircraft.
286 comments
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  1. -20
    24 September 2021 06: 01
    Again 25! 90 years ago, too, were struggling with wheeled-tracked tanks. Tukhachevsky also raved about universal guns. It’s time to already understand that airplanes are for takeoff from a run, and for vertical takeoff there are helicopters.
    1. +14
      24 September 2021 06: 18
      But what about tiltroplanes?
      1. -10
        24 September 2021 06: 50
        Quote: Coward
        But what about tiltroplanes?

        Difficult in design, and at the same time inferior to the aircraft in speed and efficiency.
        1. +8
          24 September 2021 10: 10
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Quote: Coward
          But what about tiltroplanes?

          Difficult in design, and at the same time inferior to the aircraft in speed and efficiency.

          And what about helicopters? Are they not inferior in terms of the same indicators? As with some others?
          1. -11
            24 September 2021 10: 34
            Quote: Niko
            And what about helicopters? Are they not inferior in terms of the same indicators? As with some others?

            Convertiplanes are more complex in design, and less reliable, since there are more nodes. If the tiltrotor were so more profitable than the helicopter, then the whole world would have switched to tiltroplanes long ago. Or do you consider yourself smarter than customers and designers?
            1. +6
              24 September 2021 12: 12
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              If the tiltrotor were so more profitable than the helicopter, then the whole world would have switched to tiltroplanes long ago

              1. Not every country in the world can produce a tiltrotor.
              2. Not every country can buy a tiltrotor (and service)
              3. not every country can sell it.
              And today, tomorrow, not everyone can watch. Rather, not only everyone can watch, few can do it

              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              It's time to already understand that airplanes are for takeoff from a run, and for vertical takeoff there are helicopters

              Falklands Conflict 1982: Without the Sea Harrier, it would have been completely sour.

              No matter how hard they get it
              1. +3
                24 September 2021 12: 28
                Quote: ja-ja-vw
                1. Not every country in the world can produce a tiltrotor.
                2. Not every country can buy a tiltrotor (and service)
                3. not every country can sell it.

                Not every country can produce an airplane and a helicopter. You can literally count them on the fingers of two hands.
                1. +6
                  24 September 2021 13: 22
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  Not every country can produce an airplane and a helicopter. You can literally count them on the fingers of two hands.

                  so they buy from those who can. or buy old trash, from those who sell.
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  Well, if a tiltrotor is more reliable and simpler than a helicopter, why then the whole world is still building helicopters, and not tiltrotors? Looks like sofa theorists know better

                  and "the whole world" can build?
                  This is so ... not simple at all.
                  simple example:
                  where is the thread here

                  need to deliver cargo / border guards
                  Not having an envelope plan in the navy:
                  uses the AN-26, then the helicopter back and forth.
                  it is clear that everything will be here * 2
                  1. -2
                    24 September 2021 13: 39
                    Quote: ja-ja-vw
                    need to deliver cargo / border guards
                    Not having an envelope plan in the navy:
                    uses the AN-26, then the helicopter back and forth.
                    it is clear that everything will be here * 2

                    Do not lie. The helicopter does not fly to a height of 3867 meters wassat ... Sofa theorists are such theorists wassat In Afghanistan
                    1. +2
                      24 September 2021 16: 28
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      The helicopter does not fly to a height of 3867 meters

                      Oh how! And what about the static ceiling, have you heard of that thread?
                      So the Mi-8 has a very ...
                      Practical ceiling, 6000 m. Static ceiling, m 3980. Crew, people 2-3. Payload: up to 24 passengers or 12 stretchers with accompanying or.
                      Static Ceiling Mi-8 - Helicopters - AVSIM Forums
                      1. +4
                        24 September 2021 23: 14
                        So the Mi-8 has a very ...


                        Eh ... here, perhaps, you are wrong. Even for MTS, this will depend on how the engines are worn out by dust, whether there are EVUs (ears), air temperature, how much fuel and what kind of load. And at 3500 it will not always be possible to freeze. Sometimes the trusses and the doors of the cargo compartment were removed.
                      2. +5
                        25 September 2021 00: 15
                        The helicopter cannot climb to the maximum altitude even with a half load, this is like a flight range - the higher the load, the shorter the flight range.
                    2. +5
                      24 September 2021 19: 10
                      Do not lie. The helicopter does not fly to a height of 3867 meters

                      Even how it flies. Read about how the Mi-26 took out a Mi-4920 helicopter from a height of 8 on Elbrus, and you will have no doubts.
                    3. +5
                      24 September 2021 23: 40
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      Do not lie. The helicopter does not fly to a height of 3867 meters

                      I'm actually talking about limited runway
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      Sofa theorists are such theorists

                      EVERYTHING IS TRUE.
                      1.Didier Delsalle On May 14, 2005, he became the first (and only) person which landed the Eurocopter AS350 Squirrel helicopter at an altitude of 8848 m (29 feet) - the summit of Everest
                      2.Commercial model Robinson R22 can reach 4,2 km
                      3.Aérospatiale SA.315B Lama On June 21, 1972, an altitude record was set for all categories of helicopters (pilot Jean Boulet): he climbed 12 meters.
                      belay
                      13.08.2018/8/XNUMX Mi-XNUMX, in which there were 15 climbers on high about 4,2 thousand meters, the helicopter made a hard landing.
                      As I understand it, if he landed at 4200m, then he flew with 15 climbers at an altitude of at least 4300m.
                      Or?
                      1. +4
                        25 September 2021 00: 17
                        I work in aviation, and pilots on the Mi-8 do not fly higher than 3000 m, and if, according to the weather conditions, they are forced to take off at 3000 m and fly according to instruments, they really do not like it, since fuel consumption increases very much, if the weather permits. , they fly under the clouds at an altitude of 150-500 meters above the ground.
                      2. +4
                        25 September 2021 02: 28
                        But this is completely different. It is one thing that it is convenient, comfortable, economical, and another thing is real opportunities. Helicopter pilots, in principle, do not like to fly at altitudes, but if circumstances require ... I remember that during the transfer of seventeen (!) Helicopter regiments to ensure the suppression of the rebellion in Azerbaijan (January 1990), all these regiments held an echelon of at least 4000 m. And this was done for the convenience of their radar guidance and the work of ground navigators.
                        ... Our command post then almost choked with the number of targets in the air, because at the same time there was a transfer of several airborne divisions and a bunch of other aircraft in the air, including letters.
                        And the helicopters are crawling so slowly ...
                        But actually at the theater itself they flew low, as a rule at 300 meters or less above the flat terrain.
                        But the commander-in-chief flew to Kymerkei on the Mi-24 - our air defense division had its own Mi-24 squadron to intercept Rust-type targets.
                      3. +2
                        25 September 2021 10: 19
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        I work in aviation, and pilots on the Mi-8 do not fly higher than 3000 m, and

                        I'm happy for you.
                        I do not "work" in aviation ...
                        but all of the above has nothing to do with
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Do not lie. The helicopter does not fly to a height of 3867 meters

                        I didn't "lie"
                        sad
                        and, I repeat: by giving a photo of the mountains, I did not mean the height, but "hinted" at the limited geometric dimensions of the runway and take-off / approach directions
                    4. +3
                      25 September 2021 01: 33
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      Do not lie. The helicopter does not fly to a height of 3867 meters

                      I will probably greatly surprise you, but even such a specific helicopter as the Mi-24 flew and landed at such an altitude, and carried not just anyone, but the commander-in-chief of the USSR Air Defense (and not only him) with an inspection on Kymerkei, where there was a radar company (Azerbaijan).
                      What can we say about the capabilities of the Mi-8.
              2. +7
                24 September 2021 23: 29
                Falklands Conflict 1982: Without the Sea Harrier, it would have been completely sour.

                Don't be cunning. Harrier really fought well against the "mirages" of Israeli construction. But only thanks to the latest modification of the sidewinder missiles. There was no need for them to turn around and come in from the tail. But the Argentines were forced to start "turning" in order to put their sidewinder with the old GOS in the ass. ... Naturally, they lost all the advantages. We could shoot these ducks outright and leave without getting involved in a landfill with their advantage in speed. Turn around and repeat it with the survivors.
                1. +3
                  25 September 2021 10: 34
                  Quote: dauria
                  Don't be cunning. Harrier really fought well against the "mirages" of Israeli construction. But only thanks to the all-round sidewinder rockets

                  1.It's not cunning: it shows how many La Argentinians were shot down by the hariers and how many others
                  2. there would be no hariers, presumably the Americans would launch them from the shoulder, or from a helicopter APU?
                  3.
                  Quote: dauria
                  thanks to the sidewinder rockets

                  who cares? there is a combat mission, there are tools, the mission is completed, thanks to the RAF's hariers. there would be a VTOL aircraft, the Argentines would have unwound the British expedition with aviation.
                  Quote: dauria
                  There was no need for them to turn around and come in from the tail.

                  KV-1 Kolobanov hammered near Leningad to a world record, which has not been broken so far.
                  the Germans could not pierce it.,
                  WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WITH A ROWS AND A BULGARIAN TO STOP THE ARMOR UP TO 30 MM, AND THE WEAPON TO REPLACE A 37 MM BREAKER OR 50 MM CUTTERS?
                  fool
                  Well, suggest that the Jews change to M21, M23 and use only cannon armament and rusty bombs from the times of the USSR, so that they can be on an equal footing with the Syrian Air Force.
              3. 0
                21 December 2021 14: 54
                If the Argentine Air Force had something fighter with a radar ... the upgraded Mig21 or Mig23 ... everything would be fatal
            2. +1
              24 September 2021 12: 12
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Convertoplanes are more complex in design, and less reliable, since there are more nodes

              Uh-huh, exactly trivial example::
              1) connection bolt + nut + two fastened parts == number of nodes "4"
              2) connection bolt + nut + two fastened parts + two locking and locking clamps preventing unwinding from vibrations == number of nodes "6"
              Attention question: where is the reliability higher?
              that's it, so don't make populist bullshit about knot counts and reliability ...
              1. -8
                24 September 2021 12: 29
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                Uh-huh, exactly, a trivial example ::
                1) connection bolt + nut + two fastened parts == number of nodes "4"
                2) connection bolt + nut + two fastened parts + two locking and locking clamps preventing unwinding from vibrations == number of nodes "6"
                Attention question: where is the higher reliability?
                that's it, so don't make populist bullshit about knot counts and reliability ...

                Well, if a tiltrotor is more reliable and simpler than a helicopter, why then the whole world is still building helicopters, and not tiltrotors? Looks like sofa theorists know better laughing
              2. +7
                24 September 2021 13: 27
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                Attention question: where is the higher reliability?

                reliability of the connection, as described by you, of course above in option number 2
                but the probability of failure-free operation of a group of objects is higher (better) in option No. 1
                So that "Cat K" is right
                P (t) = P (t) 1 * P (t) 2 * P (t) n
                if all P (t) 1 = P (t) 2 = ... P (t) n,
                then P (t) = P (t) 1 to the power n
                request
                Conclusion: it is necessary to core bolt-nut connections
                1. +2
                  24 September 2021 14: 51
                  Quote: ja-ja-vw
                  but the probability of failure-free operation of a group of objects is higher (better) in option No. 1

                  "mathematics is not wrong, mathematicians are wrong"

                  For example, let's take the thought "2 + 2 = 4" like everything is correct? Now take a pipette and add two and two drops of water, how many drops will there be? This is the simplest example of how mathematicians are wrong, the error lies in using an integer variable to calculate sets.

                  But you can give a more complex example, and by the way concerning an aircraft with a main rotor,
                  1) we take a blade, we calculate the probability,
                  2) we take a blade, but with an internal integrity gas sensor, we consider the probability
                  3) we take two identical aircraft, with the first and second types of blades, and we consider the probability of their failure, in the second it is mathematically higher, but in practice it is less because the integrity check is better, easier, faster, more often, in fact, it is carried out by the pilot himself before and after each departure, and in between, the technicians are also checked.
                  conclusion: the statement "a system with fewer nodes is more reliable / reliable" is false.
                  ps You can also give an example of concrete, reinforced concrete and composite concrete.
                  1. +1
                    24 September 2021 16: 56
                    Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                    Now take a pipette and add two and two drops of water, how many drops will there be?

                    the example is not entirely correct. well, okay, there will be 1 large drop of H2O, consisting of 4 initial drops.
                    mathematicians are not wrong
                    Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                    1) we take a blade, we calculate the probability,
                    2) we take a blade, but with an internal integrity gas sensor, we consider the probability
                    3) we take two identical aircraft, with the first and second types of blades, and consider

                    P1 = approximately 0,97
                    P (1 and 2) = P (1) * P (2). I don't know how much the gas sensor has, but definitely less than 1, let it be 0,99
                    Р(1и2)=Р(1)*Р(2)=0,97*0,99<P1
                    P3(1)>P3 (1и2).
                    the gas sensor is out of order and the functionality is worse than that of the "without"
                    Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                    ps You can also give an example of concrete, reinforced concrete and composite concrete.

                    at the same load (on concrete without reinforcement)?
                    Of course, "simple" concrete will exceed the probability of failure of "reinforced concrete"
                    corrosion, swelling, cracks, etc., etc. will begin
                    1. 0
                      24 September 2021 17: 40
                      Quote: ja-ja-vw
                      the example is not entirely correct.

                      The examples are correct, everywhere the math is correct, but the mathematician was wrong,
                      in the first case, there is an error in different types of variables,
                      in the second, an incorrect operation is the relationship between the probability of blade breakage and the probability of an aircraft accident
                      the third (concrete) does not take into account the synergy of mutual compensation of weak properties, for example, the fact that concrete and its additives protect against moisture ingress on metal

                      In general, this is the most common mistake of mathematicians, because it is impossible to calculate the absolute, as a result, you have to carry out an approximation in one form or another, and it is in it that mistakes are made.

                      ps terminating this math offtopic holivar
                2. +1
                  24 September 2021 21: 37
                  Quote: ja-ja-vw
                  Conclusion: it is necessary to core bolt-nut connections

                  In some places it is also glasses - after all, a stress concentrator. Crankshafts, for example, camshafts. Turbocharger or separator shaft (thousands of revolutions per minute, large masses and huge moments of inertia).
                  1. +2
                    24 September 2021 23: 13
                    Quote: Motorist
                    In some places it is also glasses - after all, a stress concentrator

                    punch the same thread, which is OUTSIDE the thread, "above the nut" and does not take part in the perception of the load.
                    well, it is not etched: a drop of solder, glue, etc., etc.
                    1. 0
                      24 September 2021 23: 30
                      Quote: ja-ja-vw
                      core is on the thread, which is OUTSIDE the thread

                      Yes, of course, but tensions can spread further. On some MAK engines, you cannot put a core on the cheeks of the crankshaft for a raskepnik - fuck as you want ... A good option is self-tightening fasteners, like on shafts and separator drums (left-hand thread).
              3. +2
                24 September 2021 16: 30
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                Attention question: where is the higher reliability?

                At the welded joint! laughing
                1. +2
                  24 September 2021 16: 38
                  Restriction: TSV: "the possibility of multiple assembly and disassembly of the connection" let it be a rectangular cover covering the technological hole for weekly maintenance (cleaning, flushing, troubleshooting). The welding you voiced will not allow this.
              4. 0
                24 September 2021 17: 57
                Thread lock, self-locking nuts? No, have not heard
                1. +1
                  24 September 2021 18: 24
                  I heard that, and even wrote in my post in paragraph two, and for you as a Chukchi: in fact, the chemical lock and cotr-nuts are friction-blocking latches, and not lock-blocking ones, and during operation they may well be unwind, google the video of laboratory tests on a vibrator.

                  For example, there is an advertising video with deliberately admitted propaganda errors in terminology and translation (there is not a locking-blocking fixation, but a wedge-frictional locking fixation) https://youtu.be/-0gSLyESDoI
                  1. 0
                    25 September 2021 07: 22
                    And then our fools, they assemble aircraft engines on self-locking fasteners. Pests?
                    1. 0
                      25 September 2021 14: 37
                      No, not pests, just engineers, and they understand where and what vibrations arise, more precisely, where there is enough frictional blocking, where a locking block is needed, and where you can apply both depending on external conditions, for example, in the photo, vibrations are reduced by the form of fastening, bending side, disposable (low-use) counter-nuts, the number of these nuts, and actually more frequent maintenance. That is, here, there is no point in locking each bolt if the friction works for 100 units of time, and THAT should be carried out every 30 units. time. But if we take a similar ring joint, but not from an aircraft engine, but from a crane in a pipeline at some plant, then there is not enough friction.
                      ps In any case, in the original context, that is: "less reliable, since there are more nodes", frictional blocking in general and a counter-nut in particular are item two, not one.
            3. +1
              24 September 2021 13: 37
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Quote: Niko
              And what about helicopters? Are they not inferior in terms of the same indicators? As with some others?

              Convertiplanes are more complex in design, and less reliable, since there are more nodes. If the tiltrotor were so more profitable than the helicopter, then the whole world would have switched to tiltroplanes long ago. Or do you consider yourself smarter than customers and designers?

              The speech in YOUR commentary to which I replied was not about comparing tiltrotors and helicopters, but about what you think, based on this argument about tiltrotors, that vertical takeoff is ONLY for helicopters ... 8 slightly different tasks?
              1. 0
                24 September 2021 16: 12
                Quote: Niko
                Do you really not understand that the harrier and the mi-8 have slightly different tasks?

                Here you confuse tasks and opportunities, their capabilities are different, but the task may be the same, for example, "anti-personnel attack by NARs on the border of the field and greenery to prevent an attack from there (when landing on this field from another aircraft)."
                1. 0
                  24 September 2021 18: 57
                  Is the fight against enemy aircraft also included in the range of POSSIBILITIES of the mi-8? I am not confusing anything, I just hoped that there was no need here to explain the truths from the primer, such as the fact that some of the tasks may overlap, although even here the possibilities for solving these tasks will differ
                  1. -1
                    24 September 2021 21: 30
                    "attack of a flying target through RVV" is an opportunity, both the harier and the mi-8 have it, even if these possibilities are not identical
                    "destruction of enemy aircraft" is a task that can be solved by both hariers and mi-8
                    "destroying the enemy fighter" is a task, the harier has enough opportunities to solve it, and the mi-8 either not enough, or not always enough
                    "destroying the enemy maize" is a challenge, and both the harier and the mi-8 have ample opportunity to solve it.
                    you are replacing opportunities, tasks and requirements, which was the example in my post above
            4. 0
              24 September 2021 20: 04
              The most important thing is to make money in the usual way and as much as possible.
      2. -2
        24 September 2021 08: 21
        But what about tiltroplanes?
        A hybrid, which is a so-so aircraft and a so-so helicopter.
        1. +4
          24 September 2021 10: 44
          The Americans are changing the transport C-2 on aircraft carriers for a tiltrotor. According to the characteristics, the tiltrotor is better.
          1. +6
            24 September 2021 12: 11
            Quote: Avior
            The Americans are changing the transport C-2 on aircraft carriers for a tiltrotor. According to the characteristics, the tiltrotor is better.

            It's just that the "osprey" is already there, and the serial one. And if you order additional "ospreys" to replace "Greyhounds", you can also reduce the price by increasing the volume of purchases.
            And a new transport vehicle of the classic scheme to replace the "greyhounds" still needs to be developed. And then R&D costs will come out, which, due to the small number of cars needed by the fleet (less than a hundred), will inflate the price of the finished aircraft to the skies.
            1. 0
              24 September 2021 12: 24
              Well, it turns out that the phrases (not specifically yours, but generally anti-ospreinik and anti-tiltrotor): "tiltrotor is too expensive to develop" and "tiltrotor is much more expensive to develop" turned out to be not true and the plane turned out to be more expensive. So, probably, both the cost and reliability also depend on the size of the series and the number of competitors.
              1. +3
                24 September 2021 12: 53
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                Well, it turns out that the phrases (not specifically yours, but generally anti-ospreinik and anti-tiltrotor): "tiltrotor is too expensive to develop" and "tiltrotor is much more expensive to develop" turned out to be not true and the plane turned out to be more expensive.

                So it's one thing to scatter the costs for a series of half a thousand vehicles, and another - for a series of forty units (more precisely, 39 - this is how many transport workers ordered by the Navy). A specialized transport carrier-based aircraft will be more expensive purely due to the limited production. But with comparable volumes, the tiltrotor will be more expensive.

                You remember how the price of a single item rises with a decrease in the volume of purchases. Clinical cases are the Marine EFV, which as a result became more expensive than the Abrams, or the shots for the Zamvolts' cannons, which for the same reason became more expensive as a cruise missile.
                1. -1
                  24 September 2021 14: 07
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  A specialized transport carrier-based aircraft will be more expensive purely due to the limited production. But with comparable volumes, the tiltrotor will be more expensive.

                  Well, think / calculate the serial production, what will be more expensive to produce: 5-10 types of aircraft or one?. That is, one is a tiltrotor with a carrying capacity of up to 10 tons and a cargo compartment size for one car / boat / truck (shishiga), and in contrast to many helicopters and aircraft starting with the mi-8, continuing the An-26, Il-112, ending with a special-aircraft by the type of any AWACS \ RTR \ EW \ KSh \ ... and not forgetting the deck ships and any high-altitude gunships. In general, the pool of orders is very, very extensive, and implementation is possible on the basis of an increased dispatch with 4-6-8 engines from the mi-26.

                  That is, the whole essence of the holivar about "expensive and unreliable convertiplanes" comes down only to the fact that they have to capture an already divided market and that they did not have and do not have hyper-financing like airplanes with helicopters.
              2. 0
                24 September 2021 20: 55
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                So, probably, the cost and reliability also depend on the size of the series and the number of competitors.
                For Osprey, an hour of flight costs the same as an hour of flight of a huge strategic bomber. It seems to me that no one but the United States can afford to operate it.
                1. -1
                  24 September 2021 21: 16
                  Quote: bk0010
                  For Osprey, an hour of flight costs the same as an hour of flight of a huge strategic bomber.

                  This is a hidden lie through falsification of facts, it was produced in the United States by supporters of helicopters and airplanes in order to discredit tiltrotors and knock out their manufacturer as a competitor from government orders, in general, a classic lobby, propaganda and rigging. For example, neither operating modes, nor combat modes, nor life cycle studies were taken into account. That is, at first, the cost of research was included in the osprey in an hour of flight, then they added replacement of nodes with new ones for a deep check of obsolescence, and then they brought out the well-known infographic with a bomber. As a result, the politicians made a request for the numbers, confirmed the prices, and the holivaro-srach began, Bell was knocked out of the tenders, and the truth, as always, drowned in the seething shit, profit, laughing
                  1. -1
                    15 November 2021 09: 02
                    You are delusional, right in hysterics, beating, challenging the obvious.
                    A tiltrotor is both bad as an airplane and as a helicopter. There is no significant increase in speed relative to helicopters, and during a helicopter landing it produces a huge amount of dust, because the propellers are too large for an airplane and cannot rotate quickly for an efficient airplane flight, and too small for a helicopter, therefore they rotate at a high speed for a helicopter. to create a lifting force with a smaller diameter. This air flow rips out of the ground what no normal helicopter can ever lift from the ground.
              3. 0
                4 October 2021 00: 13
                A tiltrotor is a so-so airplane, and a so-so helicopter.
                Level flight is slow because the propellers are too large for level flight. Vertical landing only on asphalt and concrete, or on deck, because the propellers are too small for vertical flight, and therefore the rpm is higher, and the air flow is greater, and dust, dust, dust from this ... uuuuu ... the two largest helicopters in the world were built in the USSR. And the Tu-160 was built in the USSR, that is, they knew how to make planes and helicopters.
                For the sake of fairness, it should be mentioned that the second serial model of the tiltrotor is being prepared for serial production, and since the series will be made, at least 5 cars, or even at least 10, why be modest there!
                1. 0
                  4 October 2021 01: 31
                  You make typical errors of analysis, do not lead to a common denominator, ascribe negatives of a subset to a superset, introduce informational garbage into the statement, etc.
                  For example, about landing, you ascribe the problems of opposing all tiltrotors, and even in this case, you make an even greater mistake attributing the problems of exhaust emissions not to the power plant, but to the propeller.
                  1. -1
                    15 November 2021 08: 57
                    You are raving.
    2. +2
      24 September 2021 06: 20
      Well, we must also compare the amphibious tank.
      You can do it, but this is a piece goods, like interceptor aircraft and attack aircraft.
      1. +8
        24 September 2021 08: 22
        Well, we must also compare the amphibious tank
        Give me an armored one!
    3. -3
      24 September 2021 06: 37
      ... Do not forget that the most difficult part is the rotary nozzle, the Americans supposedly "borrowed" from the Soviet Р79В-300 (item 79).

      Interestingly, but if it were the other way around, would the Americans also give their Russian partners a unique technology of a rotary nozzle?

      Now all we have to do is give a rotary nozzle to our Chinese friends ... not well, but what a pity for me! And at the same time suck the paw (without the vertical).
    4. -7
      24 September 2021 06: 47
      Talk nonsense comrade. Aircraft with VTOL aircraft are the future of aviation, the main drawback is their high fuel consumption for takeoff, as a result of which the reduced combat load and radius of action. Now let's imagine that some new detonation engine for a fighter jet gives a thrust of 20000 kg in non-afterburner mode, which may not be there at all. And why would this fighter take off from acceleration?
      1. +2
        24 September 2021 07: 07
        Now imagine that some new detonation engine for a fighter jet provides 20000 kg thrust in non-afterburner mode,

        And from what will this engine take energy? 1 the law of thermodynamics was abolished or the perpetum mobile was invented?
        1. -1
          24 September 2021 10: 43
          Learn physics! The air medium has a physical density parameter. AND! The modern architecture of the design of the engine as an air energy converter is completely ineffective. Moreover, new algorithms for such a transformation, which, moreover, do not violate and do not contradict the laws of thermodynamics as a deeply thought-out basis for creating, first of all, a new propeller, were created long ago. At the same time, I very often speak precisely as a method and method of energy conversion, which can be used both as a motor to move in any environment and generate various types and qualities of energy. It's just that it's not time to hear about it yet. And this is without judging anyone.
          1. +3
            24 September 2021 12: 21

            Learn physics! The air medium has a physical density parameter.
            ...
            It's just that it's not time to hear about it yet.

            At the expense of physics, I understand. It's something like this
            1. -1
              24 September 2021 12: 31
              Sorry I didn't mean to offend! The expression is not personal to you. They just neglect the obvious.
              1. +3
                24 September 2021 15: 16
                I sometimes admire Gridasov's talent to speak a lot, abstrusely, and at the same time say nothing, nothing at all. good
                1. 0
                  24 September 2021 15: 23
                  The question is that the consequences of my revelation can be very varied, but multifaceted. Moreover, mercantile interests.
                  1. +1
                    24 September 2021 15: 32
                    the desire to monetize your intellectual work is understandable and justified, the point is not WHAT, but in HOW you say and write, you would be in politics with such talent, or diplomats.
                    1. 0
                      24 September 2021 16: 03
                      Both politicians and diplomats feel confident if they have a trump card in their sleeve, expressed in scientific and technical superiority. Therefore, it is worth paying tribute to the superiority of scientists over everyone and who determine by their achievements the title of the country and nation.
                      1. +1
                        24 September 2021 16: 05
                        only for analysts, scientists and engineers the skill of such a conversation hurts rather than helps, but in politics and diplomacy it is vice versa.
                      2. 0
                        24 September 2021 16: 14
                        Agree! However, my position is such that there is no other choice.
                  2. +1
                    24 September 2021 17: 23
                    Quote: gridasov
                    Moreover, mercantile interests.

                    Gridasov! Is it possible that you also get money for such nonsense? Well, then for sure: you are an agent of the MOSSAD / MI6 / CIA and the secret police of Guinea Bissau! laughing
                    1. -1
                      24 September 2021 17: 29
                      There are topics and aspects that are not brought up for public viewing and it is not for me to give conclusions to your reasoning. But, in my opinion, you are primitive to take dialogue with you seriously. The world community has become more open and such a hetacticity as from you can only be observed on Russian discussion platforms.
                      1. 0
                        25 September 2021 01: 48
                        Quote: gridasov
                        There are topics and aspects that are not made public.

                        Is this related to the theory of aether?
                      2. 0
                        25 September 2021 09: 53
                        Undoubtedly! Only I believe that initially a mathematical basis is needed on which the concept of ether is built as a method of working with super-large data. In other words, we will be able to understand the principle of interaction at any radial fractal level, any dynamics and interaction of data capacities. We are talking about ether without understanding the basics of the concept of space and its fundamental principles of construction. And words cannot explain it if you do not use the language of mathematics. Space is initially inseparable and energy processes are built precisely on the description of the concept of dynamics. Scientists do not have a tool for working with this concept, and therefore speaking about energy, we always make a mistake, since we perceive it in statics and a particular solution. Therefore, the dynamics can be described by the transformation of algorithms and the transition of one capacious aggregate data to others. But all this is naturally carried out not on the variable function Number.
                      3. 0
                        25 September 2021 15: 29
                        Quote: gridasov
                        Certainly!

                        Well, the theory of large numbers and standing wave will help you.
                      4. 0
                        25 September 2021 15: 55
                        As far as I know, a standing wave implies the process of coincidence on the measuring device of the voltage and current phases. But it is precisely this process that is provided in a turnless induction coil, which is in a certain state.
                      5. 0
                        25 September 2021 19: 32
                        Quote: gridasov
                        As far as I know, a standing wave implies the process of coincidence of the voltage and current phases on the measuring device.

                        As well as acoustics, gas and hydrodynamics.
                      6. 0
                        25 September 2021 14: 58
                        Quote: bayard
                        Is this related to the theory of aether?

                        There are a lot of ethereal topics, from highly scientific, to consumer and ending with voodoo-shmuda and perpetum. So for a start you clarify what kind of broadcast you mean, otherwise it will turn out so that they tell you about one thing, and you will understand and think about something completely different. Moreover, in physics the word "ether" itself changed its meaning at least five times, or even more.
                      7. 0
                        25 September 2021 15: 35
                        I'm talking about its original meaning.
                        But this is a dangerous topic, previously it was not approved and was banned.
                        Something has changed ?
                      8. 0
                        25 September 2021 16: 06
                        The situation is approaching critical, if anyone notices !? Hydrocarbon resources are at the end of their decisive influence. Green energy is built on electric machines that have no efficiency. Scientists generally do not note the search for energy processes that differ in a new quality of these energy transformations themselves. Big data problems drive people into a world of distorted perception of reality. The avalanche-like growing wave of problems with no solutions nullifies all previous achievements. I will not tell horror stories, but at least someone should understand that the moment of the last straw is coming. After that, the carnage begins for the last piece of food.
                      9. 0
                        25 September 2021 19: 54
                        Quote: gridasov
                        After that, the carnage begins for the last piece of food.

                        "The Hunger Games" ?
                        Quote: gridasov
                        The situation is approaching critical, if anyone notices !? Hydrocarbon resources are at the end of their decisive influence.

                        Well, if transnational corporations, the World Bank, the IMF and other global forces did not pedal "green energy", carbon taxes and other delights of the gloomy genius of globalists, then no one would notice anything. It's just that more and more countries would switch from coal and fuel oil to gas, which is absolutely environmentally friendly - both in the energy sector and in transport ... it is active with metals and it is very difficult to store and transport it ... If it were not for the imposition of taxes "on meat", because "cows fart" ...
                        There would be no energy, food and social problems.
                        Why are they there?
                        Why do they pedal, initiate and create all the conditions for them?
                        Apparently the time has come.
                        They were waiting for him.
                        Otherwise, why have so many films, books and theories been written, compiled, filmed ahead of time?

                        But if you want to create a justification for some kind of energy based on free energy ... this was stopped before.
                        So I ask, has something changed?
                        Or is it another initiative of "free / free scientists"?
                      10. 0
                        25 September 2021 21: 53
                        I agree with your reasoning. And I will answer the key question. It is obvious to me that the fundamental principles of energy production, and I mean the industrial level, remain unchanged. Green energy is based on existing principles and does not give a significant increase, but on the contrary creates new problems. In general, all this can be described as technologies for using a certain level of energy density. Which for all cases remains unchanged in its level. In turn, what I am talking about is fundamentally different from modern solutions in absolutely all areas of energy production. But ! Moreover, all decisions do not come into confrontation with existing knowledge and the laws of physics. Again, Taki No! I introduce new fundamental concepts that expand knowledge about Number in the form of a function of constant value, which radically expands the possibilities of analysis on variational and algorithmically related principles of event distribution. I'm talking about new algorithms for organizing processes in a device for converting continuous media, which allows you to replace the principle used on open surfaces of the outflow of propeller and turbines of all kinds. I'm talking about electric machines built on new induction elements and completely new devices, both the element base and power energy. Talking about a multipolar transistor and direct transformation of the value of a number as a code into an electronic magnetic pulse is generally a separate conversation. And to be honest, I do not understand one thing - why is it given to me?
                      11. 0
                        25 September 2021 23: 25
                        Everything new is a well-forgotten old, therefore the word "discovery" already carries in itself the understanding that something has been closed and is now being revealed. If you mean energy based on the use of etheric streams, as well as engines based on the same principles ... try it. But be prepared that someone may not like it, because you are entering the area of ​​the forbidden.
                        However, it is possible that the time for some discoveries in this area is coming.
                        Quote: gridasov
                        I'm talking about electric machines built on new induction elements and completely new devices, both the element base and power energy.

                        Self-induction, trainers? Are these devices supplying constant current?
                        What side effects have been observed?
                        Quote: gridasov
                        Talking about a multipolar transistor and direct transformation of the value of a number as a code into an electronic magnetic pulse is generally a separate conversation.

                        Application area ? Computer Engineering ? Computers with new capabilities?
                        Quote: gridasov
                        And to be honest, I do not understand one thing - why is it given to me?

                        This did not come to you alone, there were other progressors, but not all of their ideas were embodied. Most of Tesla's inventions remained not only unclaimed, but were reliably closed again.
                        What area of ​​application do you see for this?
                      12. 0
                        26 September 2021 00: 02
                        I'll start with the main thing. This is an expansion of the potential of the brain of the person himself. I will speak from the third person. A person will not create an effective machine for working with big data until he himself thinks like a machine. At the same time, I am not talking about computational abilities and memory, but about the ability to analyze and create algorithmically related capacities of ultra-big data and their transformations. Human thinking is subordinated to reasoning emanating from modern human knowledge about number and number sequences. Only part of the knowledge about number is used in the aspect of using a variable function. But there is also a function of a constant value of a number, which allows you to adapt the work of machines to the level of brain work and work not with binary code, but with a code built on all fundamental Numbers. We can say that the development of intelligence is associated with how many numbers are in one or another fundamental series of these numbers, which is used.This is a separate large topic, of course, related to the fact that using a modern transistor that does not have a pulse-to-number correspondence does not make it possible to create not only AI , but also to understand what it is. All this is not a conversation about a computer of new capabilities, but generally different ways of working with information and creating machine work with big data. Humanity already lives in the space of uncontrolled information flows, which is expressed in the inability to perceive reality as such in its causal sequences.
                      13. 0
                        26 September 2021 00: 22
                        The question of a qualitatively different electrical process consists in the use of a unidirectional pulse current and a generator of its modulation. Tesla subconsciously strove for this. This is evidenced by his local inventions with more than obvious physical effects. I have certain doubts that Tesla was completely frank and released all his developments, if not to say that if he did not open much for everyone's attention, then what was withdrawn will remain outside the ability of scientists to understand his developments. But he knew exactly what was decisive in creating efficient electric cars. In a word, the effects of spin or rotating magnetic flux remain unused. Therefore, the vast majority of crawlers and BTGs remain entertainment devices that are not applicable on an industrial scale. It is generally meaningless to talk about any side and negative phenomena, since the potential of the resource being used is indescribable.
                      14. 0
                        25 September 2021 19: 04
                        Quote: bayard
                        I'm talking about its original meaning.
                        But this is a dangerous topic, previously it was not approved and was banned.
                        Something has changed ?

                        So initially in what area and specifically by which group was your broadcast specifically formulated?
                        If we take only physics, there are thermal, light, electrical, magnetic, electro-magnetic, gravitational, sound, and other ethers, and this is all just the tip of the iceberg. Moreover, there is, after all, sorting not only by area, but also by form and history of science. Take, for example, "The Michelson-Morley Experience" its result and interpretation allegedly proving the absence of "ether", there is also a crazy holivar, there holivar on holivar and holivar drives, starting with the fact that the experiment worked with light ether, and it was attributed to all ethers, continuing the fact that only one hypothesis is proved there and it does not apply to the presence / absence of light ether (although they write the opposite in textbooks), ending with the fact that even if we take this experiment as an axiom, some scientists still introduce analogs-substitutes for light ether in order to confirm / refute something other.
                        ps On this sim I leave this offtopic-holivar.
                      15. 0
                        25 September 2021 20: 11
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        If we take only physics, there are thermal, light, electrical, magnetic, electro-magnetic, gravitational, sound, and other ethers, and this is all just the tip of the iceberg.

                        These are all manifestations of the same thing.
                        Ether is primordial matter, "the zero element of the periodic table" (it was there before) filling everything. But the term, of course, can be conditional, it is more interesting for someone to come up with new names for old phenomena and processes. I am for historicity and continuity.

                        Here are just an article that was about something completely different - about the relevance of VTOL aircraft in modern conditions. I would have patted about it - this is not a crime at all.
                        Otherwise, we will come in reasoning to energy converters, storage devices, spark gaps, to the influence of the form on flows and the mathematical substantiation of fractal processes ...
                        Better all the same about the reactor, about your favorite lunar tractor, about VTOL aircraft, which are not ... but necessary.
                      16. 0
                        26 September 2021 10: 39
                        In any case, we are always close to a practical solution expressed in obtaining a high density of magnetic fluxes, but already formed not in the windings of an inductor or permanent magnets, but formed by the flow itself and jets of water, air, etc. It is not so difficult to understand that if air ionizes the surface of the outflow, then it itself is a source of both current and voltage
                        Change your approach and free yourself from dogmas, but they cannot be ignored either. I work with the method of extended perception - this is when everything is perceived! And moreover, the array of incoming data expands and perception is carried out on the subconscious. In other words, information simply swings through the organs of perception. And then you notice how it itself is structured, optimized and Perceived in the simplest terms. You just need to understand the mathematical principles of the distribution of information from particulars to general concepts and to consider everything not only as particulars and a set of them, but as procedural algorithmic connections. I have written many times that before you create AI you need to teach your own brain to work like a machine.
                      17. 0
                        25 September 2021 22: 06
                        All the answers are that it is trivial to introduce new fundamentals into the analysis. And for you and all scientists there is no understanding that one and the same physical process takes on different effects when changing the dynamics of its implementation. All physical laws can be reduced to several systemic directions, but they can also be combined according to fundamental criteria. And at the core it is worth understanding the essence of constructing a monopole and a dipole as a system of magnetic force flows forming a primary energy formation that has an exhaustive correspondence to the number. More overtly, it is obviously not worth writing, as it overshadows the mind. We as people think on more superficial knowledge about the principles of the universe.
                      18. 0
                        25 September 2021 15: 51
                        I totally agree! Therefore, the conversation should not be about an abstract concept, but about the properties and signs of what we mean by space. I don't even want to use the term, it's so ephemeral.
                  3. +1
                    24 September 2021 22: 03
                    Quote: gridasov
                    The question is that the consequences of my revelation can be very varied, but multifaceted. Moreover, mercantile interests.

                    Gridasov, and I am happy to share my knowledge and experience. True, I try to do this during working hours. laughing Yes, and my knowledge is not stored in the Vatican library ... Enlighten at least the local humanity, we will not tell anyone! soldier
                    1. +2
                      25 September 2021 09: 59
                      With your Slavic sluggishness, the description of the method and method of ensuring the continuity of a continuous hydro-gas-dynamic flow will instantly lead to the status of a defeated civilization. Therefore, I do not react to such provocative tricks. But it would be forgivable to those who have an appropriate intellectual level.
          2. 0
            24 September 2021 17: 16
            Quote: gridasov
            Learn physics!

            Really already learned and started teaching others !? - AWESOME !!!
            But, to our pearls or rams - whoever is more convenient.
            ... the architecture of the design of the engine as an air energy converter,
            So - ARCHITECTURE - Architecture, or architecture - the art and science of building, designing buildings and structures (including their complexes), as well as itself a set of buildings and structures ...
            CONSTRUCTION - device, relative position parts, the composition of any structure, mechanism, etc. ... Therefore, this abstruse absurdity neither to the village nor to the city ...
            Air energy converter... A WINDSHIELD or what? Well, I admit - a wing (plane) with an oncoming air flow ... But what does dvigun have to do with it? They are now converting the chemical / electrical energy of the fuel / AB into kinetic energy:
            - a) jets of incandescent gases from the nozzle;
            - b) compacted air flow at the cut of the propeller (propeller).
            What else, gridasov, do you want to ARCHITECTURALLY DESIGN in an air environment? Converting ENERGY ... of air? Or are you going to harness the HURRICANE to the VIMANA chariot? belay
            But, abstruse ... already the brains of those who put you "+" ...
            DARKNESS!
            1. 0
              24 September 2021 17: 23
              It is quite possible that it is also abstruse. But do not judge strictly. At the same time, communication with foreign experts is even more difficult. And the terminology and the order of thoughts and many aspects that make the dialogue much more difficult. Therefore, we position our developments not only in Russia and adapt to the intelligence of different people.
            2. +1
              24 September 2021 18: 47
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              ARCHITECTURE - Architecture, or architecture - the art and science of building, designing buildings and structures (including their complexes), as well as the very set of buildings and structures ...

              Architecture of systems, software, society, etc. where are the buildings and structures you voiced there? (This is a rhetorical question showing an error in your counter-thesis).
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              Air energy converter

              Well, purely theoretically, it is possible that Gridasov found errors / inaccuracies in the methods used for calculating the movement of air near the supporting surface (turbine / compressor / fan / propeller / blades, everything is the same), at the moment, as far as I remember (I haven't re-checked it for a long time), there were two conflicting calculation methods, one based on the Bernul law, I don’t remember the second, perhaps Gridasov came up with a third or N-th method and, based on it, a new design of support surfaces. In this case, his "verbal flow" makes sense to itself, but here is the form of expressing his thoughts in Gridasov ... what wassat In general, the phrase "gridasov, such gridasov" has long been a meme on topvar.
              1. 0
                24 September 2021 19: 00
                I give you your due and respect. The conversation is about the original method of mathematical analysis of big data, which allows us to talk about a new device. The method itself is built on completely new fundamental properties of number. You, like all people, see the same natural series as a system of linear numerical sequence. But by changing some relation to the number, it is possible to construct an inseparable numerical and algorithmically connected space as radial and with a variable construction of the interaction of both the number itself and the algorithms. In other words, we have reconciled mathematics with the physics and structure of information processing in the machine. At the same time, machine processing is not based on a binary code, but on a multipolar one. The conversation is about combining the principle of the brain and the machine. We make the brain work like a machine, and the machine like a human brain. Everything is both complex and simple optimized. Therefore, the task of analyzing the operation of a turbine is like a test for the operability of an analysis technique. In addition, you are close to the basic principle of the new device. Only the reference is not the surfaces, but the air flow itself.
                1. 0
                  24 September 2021 20: 50
                  Quote: gridasov
                  Only the support is not the surfaces, but the air flow itself.

                  Hmm something like this came across a couple of times, like on the topic "focus of wave resonance in N-dimensional space" within the macro-point, while in modern calculations these frames cannot be calculated, therefore they are approximated, and then it turns out that you came up with an algorithm and a computer where approximation (simplification / reduction) is not needed, and due to your new mathematical model, you got a new leverage. Well, what can I say, if you can confirm experimentally, then the Nobel Prize is guaranteed to you.
                  1. 0
                    24 September 2021 21: 36
                    Absolutely right! Initially, the Task was not about inventing anything. This is already the stage of applying the method. The task consisted in the effective transformation of one potential state of matter into another, due to the intrinsic kinetic energy of the transient process. It's like a new generation of alchemy.
              2. -1
                24 September 2021 22: 18
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                Well, purely theoretically, it is possible that Gridasov found errors / inaccuracies in the methods used for calculating the movement of air around the supporting surface

                The air only receives energy when the wing moves through it. If I did, I would cool down. But for this the plane must be a refrigerator. lol
                1. +1
                  25 September 2021 11: 36
                  And you are technically right. Only the reasoning must be carried out not at the level of concepts about thermodynamic processes, but electromagnetic ones. This means that it is necessary to consider the processes at the level of relative tension, process vectors. At the same time, these are rapidly changing processes, which means that the method itself should not be calculated, but with an understanding of the complexity of the changes. Etc
        2. 0
          24 September 2021 11: 01
          Well, it is assumed that the efficiency of the detonation engine will be 50 percent higher than existing ones. Another question is that while the detonation engine is at the stage of well, very prototypes ...
          1. +1
            24 September 2021 13: 39
            Well, it is assumed that the efficiency of the detonation engine will be 50 percent higher than existing ones.
            I read that the efficiency gain is estimated at 30-40 percent. But this is very, very much. Because at the same fuel consumption, the increase in power / power-to-weight ratio is 30-50%, or at the same power, the consumption is reduced by the same 30-50%. There is no need to explain what this LA means.
          2. 0
            24 September 2021 16: 29
            There is reason to say that the idea itself is logical, but the solution does not have an optimized approach to obtaining the final result. The very process of obtaining a space with a high energy density should be natural and self-regulating, not forced. And it's not difficult to organize.
          3. 0
            24 September 2021 17: 26
            Quote: Sahalinets
            while the detonation engine is at the stage of well, very prototypes ...

            The Japans have already tested their dvigun in orbit. Apparently, it will soon trample on others ...
        3. +2
          24 September 2021 13: 40
          Quote: Nafanya from the couch
          1 the law of thermodynamics was abolished or the perpetum mobile was invented?

          - there is no connection between the "First Law of Thermodynamics" with a thrust of 20000kg
          deltaU = Q + A
          Q-heat
          A- work
          impossibility of perpetum and follows from "1 law"
          Quote: Yorgven
          Now let's imagine that some new detonation engine for a fighter jet gives a thrust of 20000 kg in non-afterburner mode.

          1.pull is force, it is measured in Newtons or kgf
          2.use (and no detonation)
          Aircraft jet engine GE90-115B
          Take-off thrust 52435 kgf
          3.For takeoff, not only thrust is important (unless, of course, its vector cannot be adjusted and directed downward)
          cm:
          Calculation of takeoff and landing characteristics of an aircraft (pages 21-24)

          shl. and do not forget about the overload, so that the pilot does not get killed and the aircraft is not damaged
          1. +1
            24 September 2021 15: 25
            Quote: ja-ja-vw
            impossibility of perpetum and follows from "1 law"

            with chago is it ah? stop You seem to forget that this law is formulated for "isolated energy systems ", but in practice we cannot create such systems even in theory. So the perpetum mobile is theoretically impossible, but in practice, due to the energy of gravity or other radiation of a universal scale, it is quite possible, moreover, it even exists, ask the cycle of life of stars and galaxies.
            1. +2
              24 September 2021 17: 06
              Quote: ProkletyiPirat
              You seem to forget that this law is formulated for "isolated energy systems",

              PM is "of this kind" and does not violate the laws of thermodynamics, since they draw energy from the environment
              request
              and the rest is all "petrik"
              METHODS AND DEVICES FOR CREATING POWER AND USEFUL WORK WITHOUT EXTERNAL SOURCES, AND SAFE TRAFFIC SYSTEMS.

              Quote: ProkletyiPirat
              take an interest in the life cycle of stars and galaxies.

              they have nothing to do with the "engine".
              D- these are carsa, turning some n. a kind of energy into mechanical work that sets something in motion.
              and not a cycle, but evolution.
              our Sun, after 6 billion years, will not turn into our Sun
      2. +6
        24 September 2021 07: 54
        Quote: Yorgven
        Now let's imagine that some new detonation engine for a fighter jet gives a thrust of 20000 kg in non-afterburner mode.

        Maybe go straight to antigravity?
        1. 0
          24 September 2021 16: 18
          Without building and creating an alglrhythmic chain of development, one cannot immediately find oneself where the place in the development of events is not determined. It is important to take a path with long-term development prospects.
      3. +2
        24 September 2021 09: 38
        Quote: Yorgven
        Now let's imagine that some new detonation engine for a fighter jet gives a thrust of 20000 kg in non-afterburner mode, which may not be there at all. And why would this fighter take off from acceleration?

        Then, which can take a lot more payload, fly farther and maneuver for longer.
        Now, if you make an engine with excess power, but with an unlimited range, then you can return to the VTOL aircraft.
        1. 0
          25 September 2021 03: 23
          Quote: qqqq
          Now, if you make an engine with excess power, but with an unlimited range, then you can return to the VTOL aircraft.

          Why bring it to the point of absurdity?
          Each aircraft has its own niche and scope, and it is formulated in the terms of reference presented to the performer.
          And regarding the feasibility (even now, even with us) of such a project, then look at the comparative characteristics of the MiG-29 and Yak-141 presented in this article.
          And pay attention first of all to their range (ferry). With equal dimensions, takeoff weight and engine / engine thrust, the range of the Yak-141 is noticeably LARGER than that of the MiG-29. Moreover, these are aircraft of the same generation. With a comparable payload (again, the Yak has more), the Yak-141 is inferior in speed (its speed is equal to the speed of the American F-18 of the first versions, as well as their combat radius) of the MiG-29 and in altitude. But in general, for its time, the Yak-141 was quite consistent with the level of peer fighters. And it had the same radar as the MiG-29.
          And that was at the end of the 80s, with the P79-300 engine, with a thrust of 15 kg.s.
          And already in the second half of the 90s, despite the collapse in the country and the lack of funding, the developers provided the following modification of this engine - Р279-300, with a capacity of 18 kg.f. With the same engine dimensions and weight.
          And at present the developer offers a modification of the Р579-300 with the declared capacity of 21 - 500 kg.f. afterburner and 22 - 000 kg.f. maximum non-afterburner thrust.
          Yes, it is heavier than the "Product-30", its weight is about 2050 kg. with a tail, longer and slightly larger in diameter ... But on such an engine it is possible to build a VTOL aircraft much better than the American F-35B, especially if you avoid some mistakes in its design.
          For example, to abandon the vertical thrust fan, which takes up too much space in a not very large aircraft, and its weight, together with the weight of the power take-off shaft, the duct shaft and the mechanization of its doors and hatches ... seriously lose to the architecture of the Yak-141 with two low-resource , lightweight and compact vertical thrust motors. But the main benefit is that with such a layout, the fuselage will not be swollen like the "Pregnant Penguin", it will be slim and aerodynamic, and the internal weapons bays will be much more spacious than that of the F-35. At the same time, the saved mass on the vertical thrust system will be enough to compensate for a slightly higher fuel consumption during takeoff and landing. This will not affect the range downward.
          If we use the “Product-30” engine (if it does succeed), then it is quite possible to obtain a VTOL aircraft with the characteristics of the MiG-35 (including range), which is not at all bad for a single-engine VTOL aircraft.
          And as a basis for a glider of such a VTOL aircraft, a glider of the so-called. Su-75.
          Yes, it looks like it is with the prospect of a VTOL aircraft.
          1. 0
            26 September 2021 09: 07
            Quote: bayard
            Each aircraft has its own niche and scope, and it is formulated in the terms of reference presented to the performer.

            That's right, only the niche of VTOL aircraft is so narrow that there is not very much sense in their existence. With existing technologies, VTOL aircraft will always lose to an ordinary aircraft. Everything that you wrote above is true only until this engine on paper, which is super for VTOL aircraft, will not be put on a regular aircraft and then everything will return to normal again, VTOL aircraft will shamelessly lose in all respects.
            1. 0
              26 September 2021 17: 24
              Quote: qqqq
              That's right, only the niche of VTOL aircraft is so narrow that there is not very much sense in their existence.

              In fact, it is not so narrow, and it is by no means only the Fleet. In any case, the USSR considered this to be the case and purchased the Yak-39 (Yak-38M) not only for the aircraft carrying ships of the Fleet, but also for the Air Force - for basing in the border zone, where the construction of airfields is difficult or impossible.
              Yes, then it was a MiG-21 attack aircraft with transonic speed and maneuverability, but the Yak-141 that appeared just before the collapse of the Union could change the situation and the role of VTOL aircraft simply radically. In fact, it was analogous in speed, range, altitude, maneuverability, to the American F-18, which finished testing just in the mid-to-late 80s, with radar and armament the same as that of the MiG-29. So he could fully provide the air defense of our AUG \ KUG. In addition, a catapult is not needed to take off a VTOL aircraft, and if there is a special need, a run is not needed, so all fighters on the upper deck, in case of a threat, can take off directly from their parking areas in the shortest possible time. In contrast to the ejection SGVP.
              In fact, at the moment VTOL aircraft are inferior to similar fighters only in range - if these are aircraft of the same project - like the F-35A and F-35B. But the "Lightning" has extremely irrational aerodynamics for a supersonic fighter - because of the hefty fan and its air duct, the fuselage is insanely inflated and creates a lot of resistance for an aircraft of such a low specific elongation. If, in our case, we return to the scheme with vertical thrust engines, then all the problems with irrational aerodynamics will go away, and therefore (other things being equal), the speed and dynamism / throttle response during maneuvering will increase.
              If the VTOL aircraft during takeoff with a run and vertical landing, has a combat radius of 800 - 1000 km. , with a standard combat load, what is the problem with the choice?
              It's enough .
              After all, this is, after all, a LIGHT single-engine fighter, and should not be equated with its heavy twin-engine counterparts. But at the same time he has a lot of new opportunities.
              And not only in the navy.
              Quote: qqqq
              Everything that you wrote above is true only until this engine on paper, which is super for VTOL aircraft, will not be put on a regular aircraft and then everything will return to normal again, VTOL aircraft will shamelessly lose in all respects.

              If we consider the so-called. Su-75 in two versions, then having executed it on the "Product-30" and VT engines, the difference in range will be less than that of similar modifications of the "Lightning". In all other characteristics, they will be identical.
              But for the P579-300, a larger fuselage is needed. You can do the same, but larger. And now he is already in the VTOL version, will make the "Chekmet" of the usual configuration with the "Product-30".
              And note that the configuration of the Su-75 was chosen in such a way that it can be easily transformed into a VTOL aircraft. Do you think it's just that?
              Against the background of the fact that the Yakovlev design bureau has (according to official reports) been working on the VTOL aircraft for 5 years?
              Against the background of periodic slips of the tongue of the USC representatives that work is underway on such an aircraft?
              Against the background of the fact that the VO published an article about VTOL aircraft, which was announced only at the beginning of a whole cycle?
              The experience accumulated by the USSR makes it possible to create such an aircraft, avoiding those conceptual mistakes that were made by our competitors when designing the F-35В ... which they, in turn, designed with the help of a group of designers from the Yakovlev Design Bureau, relying on the Soviet projects Yak-141 and Yak -201. I spoke with one of the designers involved in the creation of the F-35? , he showed me a watch donated by Bush, in gratitude for the work done.
              Now work on VTOL aircraft is underway in the Russian Federation. And looking at the fuselage of the Su-75, I see that the lessons of the mistakes made in the creation of the F-35 have been taken into account.
              And look at the number of applications for the F-35B from their allies and more. But many of those who wished were refused.
              An unsuccessful fighter would not have enjoyed such popularity.
              And this is despite a bunch of flaws and design errors.

              Quote: qqqq
              VTOL aircraft will shamelessly lose in all respects.

              You know, in the late 50s and 60s there was a struggle for speed, everything that was possible with the engines of that time was squeezed out of the planes - aerodynamics, forcing engines, altitude. And then there was a stop. The experience of the wars in Vietnam and the Middle East has shown that the overwhelming majority of air battles take place at subsonic, transonic and low supersonic speeds. And much more important than speed are maneuverability and the ability to quickly accelerate (thrust-to-weight ratio and responsiveness) ... Therefore, since then, the power of the engines has grown, but the speed ... has stopped. For most, it is at the level of 2M, and only for some heavy twin-engine cars, it rested on 2,5M.
              And that’s it.
              Then there is a thermal barrier, and every extra 100 km / h is given disproportionately high costs and complicates the design - it is necessary to cool the leading edges and glazing of the lanterns, use heat-resistant materials for the fuselage (titanium and stainless steel), take into account thermal deformations, vibration effects, and much more.
              As a result, at the turn of the 60s - 70s, the race for speed stopped.
              SR-71, MiG-25 and MiG-31 are exceptions here and they had very specific tasks laid down in the terms of reference.
              And that is why the USSR abandoned further work on the very promising (in terms of speed) T-100. And they chose the concept of a multi-mode aircraft MRA and YES.
              I mean, chasing range for a light fighter is already ... irrational, if the achieved range is satisfactory. And already the Yak-141 had a combat radius with 4 missiles of 800 km - almost like the F-18, its peer.
              And we must remember that for light and mobilization aircraft carriers VTOL aircraft are simply ideal. And helicopters can be used as AWACS for them, we have experience.
              But catapult aircraft carriers are also needed - just for the sake of classic AWACS aircraft ... and for the possibility of striking at maximum range.
      4. +1
        24 September 2021 12: 37
        Quote: Yorgven
        VTOL aircraft, this is the future of aviation,

        The future, yes, but not for existing solutions, because the F-35 and harier scheme does not allow creating an aircraft that replaces helicopters. And the problem is not the presence of such aircraft from the enemy, but the absence of an order for R&D on the topic of such engines + propellers from our Ministry of Defense.
        1. +2
          24 September 2021 16: 23
          it is the case that no R&D or investment affects the momentum of scientific and inventive discovery. Evolution is built by individuals by their understanding of what others do not see
          1. 0
            24 September 2021 16: 30
            Your form of voicing this idea is controversial, I think the most accurate phrase sounds like "innovations grow-develop not from top to bottom, but from bottom to top."
            1. 0
              24 September 2021 16: 53
              I believe the meaning of what has been said is true for both forms. But there are reasons to revise many outstanding discoveries as such if they are considered not as particular phenomena, but as stages of algorithms for the development of one or another scientific direction. Then it will be possible to see not development, but marking time and how you expressed the variety of forms of expression that has one meaning.
    5. +6
      24 September 2021 07: 13
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      It’s time to already understand that airplanes are for takeoff from a run, and for vertical takeoff there are helicopters.

      Ekoy, my friend, you are a retrograde!
      1. +2
        24 September 2021 07: 18
        VTOL aircraft, of course, will not replace the classic aircraft, but will firmly occupy its niche in combat aviation (up to 30-40 percent of commercials)
        1. 0
          24 September 2021 10: 00
          I think so too.
          The transition point will be a strike on a classic airfield in some
          future war. Photos of destroyed planes and exploded runways.
          And there will be a transition to verticals with small airfields.
          1. +5
            24 September 2021 12: 20
            Quote: voyaka uh
            The transition point will be a strike on a classic airfield in some
            future war. Photos of destroyed planes and exploded runways.
            And there will be a transition to verticals with small airfields.

            Oh-ho-ho ... so they were preparing for strikes on airfields back in the Cold War. How many concrete-piercing bombs, mines, cassettes were made for their use, tactics for striking were developed.
            And in practice, strikes on airfields were - in the same "Desert Storm". So what?
            But nothing - everyone rely on repair and restoration services, the dispersal of the Air Force, takeoff from temporary runways or even from the ground.
            1. +1
              24 September 2021 13: 42
              Oh-ho-ho ... so they were preparing for strikes on airfields back in the Cold War.
              So what?
              But nothing - everyone rely on repair and restoration services, the dispersal of the Air Force, takeoff from temporary runways or even from the ground.
              That's why our people train to take off from the ground and highways. And sections of highways are laid for these purposes using the square-nesting method. Well ... Were laid. I don’t know how it is now.
          2. +1
            24 September 2021 12: 22
            well, in the land version, the Grippen concept with horizontal take-off, but unpretentiousness to the runway seems more reasonable. A piece of the road can be found for a single takeoff / landing. It's more difficult at sea.
      2. -5
        24 September 2021 09: 12
        Quote: mark1
        Ekoy, my friend, you are a retrograde!

        Just common sense and knowledge of the history of technology. Any universal technique will be worse than specialized equipment. We tried to make a wheeled-tracked tank - it didn't work. We tried to make universal divisional guns, but it didn't work either. They tried to make a universal cartridge capable of replacing rifle and submachine gun cartridges - it did not work either.
        1. KCA
          -1
          24 September 2021 11: 51
          A rifle cartridge is simply redundant for an assault rifle, well, if only both Japanese 6.5mm cartridges and Japanese rifles were suitable for the Fedorov assault rifle, and 7.62x54 is suitable for Mosinka, SVD, PC, PKM, Pecheneg, for SVD the bullet is different and the overall quality of cartridges is better , but you can also use a machine gun, and vice versa
          1. -1
            24 September 2021 12: 02
            Quote: KCA
            The rifle cartridge is simply redundant for the machine gun

            Well, in the USSR in the 60s, experiments were carried out on cartridges of 6,5 mm caliber in order to create a single cartridge for the SVD, and for the PC, and for the AK. The bullet had a speed of about 1050 m / s, and therefore the resource of the barrel of machine guns and machine guns was scanty, after about a thousand shots in short bursts, the barrels of machine guns and machine guns became completely unusable.
        2. -2
          24 September 2021 19: 19
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Any universal technique will be worse than specialized equipment.

          The builders disagree with you, and instead of dozens of machines they order a smaller number and a lot of attachments-modules.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Tried to do

          As for other examples, the key word is "tried", not "done", so I can also go and try to dig frozen soil with my bare hands, or try to hammer a tunnel through the mountain with a hammer, and then broadcast with a clever face that "there is no to build, we have already tried ", but in reality the matter is completely different.
      3. +4
        24 September 2021 10: 10
        Quote: mark1
        Ekoy, my friend, you are a retrograde!

        Who is this "retrograde"? This is a dude who thinks in familiar patterns ... Well, as for example, they used to think that an airplane can only be propeller-driven, not a jet or a disc-plane .. And now they are trying to "imagine" VTOL aircraft only in the form of a "Harrier" or Yak- 141! Why not present an unusual VTOL aircraft scheme? Among the "verticals" there is a kind of "tail sitters" taking off and landing "on the tail" ...

        There are already options for "pure reactive"!

        And why not consider such a concept, when the deck aircraft "takes off" vertically using the platform-copter ... accelerates a little, and then "sama" and the platform returns to the deck to "pick up" the next aircraft ...

        And perhaps the future of "vertical" is "discs"! Anyway, the use of the Schauberger engine ("repulsin")
    6. 0
      24 September 2021 09: 34
      I support VTOL aircraft at the current level of technology, a dead-end branch of evolution.
    7. +2
      24 September 2021 12: 26
      With a thrust-to-weight ratio (ratio of maximum thrust to weight) of modern (and future) aircraft, much more than one, designers and customers will always be tempted to have vertical takeoff and landing. How and in what time frame they will solve the problem is just a matter of time. "Need, persistent petitioner" said Peter 1. If there is a "need" and a theoretical possibility, then the practical implementation, satisfying the majority, will sooner or later follow.
      PS The author should have written in the conclusions instead of:
      In this article, we examined the real and perceived shortcomings of VTOL aircraft

      In this (review) material, we (tried) to consider the real and imaginary shortcomings of VTOL
      This will be more correct and more accurate. Sincerely!
    8. 0
      26 September 2021 17: 18
      Until anti-gravity is invented, there is no sense in airplanes with OT .. An ordinary "classic" aircraft will always win from it in terms of performance .. The whole question is closed .. All attempts to draw into this fornicator should be regarded as sabotage ..
    9. fiv
      0
      11 November 2021 10: 20
      It seems to me that the future of flying vehicles is the use of vertical take-off and landing. With the advent of compact super-powerful energy sources (batteries ???), this option will be easily implemented.
      1. -1
        15 November 2021 09: 06
        Never implemented. If you take off by helicopter, then the speed is low. If you fly horizontally, quickly and over long distances, then you need a runway. A costly, ineffective intermediate option is needed only by the military,
  2. +7
    24 September 2021 06: 25
    Actually, there was already an article about VTOL aircraft, Timokhin, in my opinion, where he competently "landed" this type of aircraft ...
    For the United States, VTOL aircraft are needed primarily for landing them on UDC of the America type and for the formation of a larger number of aircraft carrying ships, because Fords cannot do much, even with a space budget.
    For other states, it is even difficult to find a reason for their design and acquisition ... The classic fighter is better in almost everything ...
    1. +4
      24 September 2021 07: 51
      Do other countries have no UDC?
      1. +5
        24 September 2021 08: 24
        Quote: Avior
        Do other countries have no UDC?

        There is UDC, but there are no ambitions and funding of the US ILC level.
        Well, Italy will put on its F35B, Japan, R. Korea (maybe), and that's it. Is it worth it ..?
        By the way, all these three countries are quite capable of building a classic aircraft carrier of moderate displacement, which they will do in the future as soon as the hegemon gives the green light.
        1. +1
          24 September 2021 08: 47
          Quote: Doccor18
          Well, Italy will put on its F35B, Japan, R. Korea (maybe), and that's it. Is it worth it ..?

          Only if half of the customers are not mentioned. In addition to Italy, Japan and South Korea, Britain, Spain and Turkey bought them (the fact that they were not asked is another question). Perhaps Australia will buy. In fact, the remaining maritime powers were Russia, China, France and India. The latter, theoretically, can also purchase the F-35B in the long term.
          So yes - it's worth it.
          1. -14
            24 September 2021 09: 06
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            In fact, the remaining maritime powers were Russia, China, France and India.

            Russia, France and India are not maritime powers, and cannot become them. China is only about to become, but even then China does not have overseas bases, there are only bases on its territory. The maritime powers are now only Britain and the United States, which have powerful fleets and naval bases around the planet.
            1. +3
              24 September 2021 12: 25
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Russia, France and India are not maritime powers, and cannot become them.

              Why are you so categorical?

              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              China is only about to become, but even then China does not have overseas bases, there are only bases on its territory.

              There is already one in Djibouti, and the Pakistani Gwadar, which they have rebuilt, can be adapted for this business in the shortest possible time ... Besides, others will not wait long. Africa is firmly shackled by Chinese loans.

              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              The maritime powers are now only Britain and the United States, which have powerful fleets and naval bases around the planet.

              The British navy cannot be called "powerful" now.
              1. -4
                24 September 2021 12: 39
                Quote: Doccor18
                Why are you so categorical?

                France has already lost almost all of its colonies, and it is not particularly rich to maintain a fleet of the world's oceans. Russia is also not rich, Kuzya is barely keeping up, and there can be no question of building a new aircraft carrier. India, too, is not a wealthy country, and, like Russia, it does not have overseas bases of territories in which an ocean-going fleet could be based. And in general, since Russia and India do not have overseas territories, it simply makes no sense logistically to build and maintain an ocean-going fleet, since it is simply not stupidly needed. Well, why does Russia need a fleet comparable to the fleets of the United States and Britain? If Russia had Alaska, it would still make sense for Russia to have a powerful fleet to protect Alaska from the Anglo-Saxons.
                Quote: Doccor18
                The British navy cannot be called "powerful" now.

                In fact, Britain also includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Virginia, Bahamas, Falklands, Gibraltar and a dozen other territories scattered around the planet, and the fleets of Australia, Canada and New Zealand should also be considered as British , since they obey the British monarchy, since according to the Constitution of these countries, the British monarch is the Commander-in-Chief in these countries, and the military of these countries take an oath not to Canada, Australia or New Zealand, or their peoples, but to swear an oath to the British monarch and her descendants ... So, combined with the fleets of Metropolis, Australia, Canada and New Zealand, the British fleet is in second place after the US fleet.
          2. +1
            24 September 2021 12: 40
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            In addition to Italy, Japan and South Korea, Britain, Spain and Turkey bought them (the fact that they were not asked is another question). Perhaps Australia will purchase

            If not for the strange British economy on catapults, VTOL aircraft would not have been needed. Spain, how much she needs, 10-12 cars is the limit. Turkey - yes, but "project S-400" ...
            Total: Italy and Turkey (24 each), Japan (36-48), Korea and Spain (12 each), Britain (48) = 168 cars (this is 100% of orders). Frankly, not a lot, even with powerful British non-aircraft carriers (and without them 120) ... The comparison is not very good, but still, the Harriers were released 5 times more ...
            1. +1
              24 September 2021 13: 29
              Well, let's calculate:
              Italy - 30
              Japan - 48
              R. Korea - 20
              Singapore - 12
              Britain - 48
              USA - 340
              Australia, Spain, Turkey are likely to buy / receive the F-35B. Britain, R. Korea, Japan will increase the order, + a high probability of sales to other countries of the Asia-Pacific region and the Middle East.
              Total: 158 + 340 = 498 units of F-35B ordered, I assume that another 100-150 units will be sold on top of that.
              This series will be comparable in number with Harriers, Eurofighters, Su-30, Mirage 2000.
              1. -1
                24 September 2021 13: 43
                Is Singapore going to buy too? I have not heard.
                1. +3
                  24 September 2021 14: 08
                  Yes. For them, this is the optimal fighter.
                  By the way, the Turks also gathered to make their own vertical. With the help of the same Britons. Based on HÜRJET with BAE + RR.
        2. +5
          24 September 2021 10: 01
          In reality, those who have UDC are existing or potential buyers of F35V
          As for the classic aircraft carrier of moderate compensation, this is a moot point.
          Much more expensive in construction, and most importantly, in operation. A light aircraft carrier with VTOL aircraft is much cheaper.
          1. 0
            24 September 2021 12: 13
            Quote: Avior
            A light aircraft carrier with VTOL aircraft is much cheaper.

            Of course, but the possibilities are not the same ...
            1. +1
              24 September 2021 12: 29
              Many people assume that it is better to have limited capabilities than to have none. In principle, it is now possible to pull up the capabilities of light aircraft carriers to heavy ones. For a long time, the Americans have been offering the Indians and the British an AWACS and a tanker based at Osprey.
              1. 0
                24 September 2021 13: 39
                Quote: Avior
                For a long time, the Americans have been offering the Indians and the British an AWACS and a tanker based at Osprey.

                Expensive and moody. Although, if they bring it up and provide serial production, everything can be ...
                1. +3
                  24 September 2021 14: 05
                  It has been serially produced for a long time and the reliability is sufficient - not a single disaster since 2017
                  And that the AWACS plane is expensive, so no one expects that it will be cheap
                  They are piece
      2. +2
        24 September 2021 09: 35
        Do other countries have no UDC?

        There is, for example, also in China, but even there UDC is provided as part of AUG, without AUG UDC costs nothing.
        Having in the composition of the AUG UDC with VTOL aircraft, the strike capabilities of the aircraft carrier are significantly increased and a more flexible use of such an AUG is possible.
    2. +2
      24 September 2021 10: 17
      Quote: Doccor18
      Actually, there was already an article about VTOL aircraft, Timokhin, in my opinion, where he competently "landed" this type of aircraft ...
      For the United States, VTOL aircraft are needed primarily for landing them on UDC of the America type and for the formation of a larger number of aircraft carrying ships, because Fords cannot do much, even with a space budget.
      For other states, it is even difficult to find a reason for their design and acquisition ... The classic fighter is better in almost everything ...

      But the British in the Falklands proved to everyone smart: it is better to HAVE a fighter where it is needed than not to have it THERE where it is needed (even if it is worse than the one that is impossible to have where it is needed)
      1. +3
        24 September 2021 12: 23
        Quote: Niko
        But the British in the Falklands proved to everyone smart: it is better to HAVE a fighter where it is needed than not to have it THERE where it is needed (even if it is worse than the one that is impossible to have where it is needed)

        More precisely, the British in the Falklands proved that VTOL aircraft can operate in areas where classical enemy aircraft operate at the limit of the radius and are constrained by a lack of fuel and the absence of normal guidance and target designation.
        1. +2
          24 September 2021 12: 32
          The British put her in such conditions, having correctly positioned the ships.
          And the Argentines did not use their aircraft carrier at all.
          1. +1
            24 September 2021 13: 06
            Quote: Avior
            The British put her in such conditions, having correctly positioned the ships.
            And the Argentines did not use their aircraft carrier at all.

            There was cooperative mat - Argentines and the runway in the Falklands practically did not use.
            1. 0
              24 September 2021 13: 15
              GDP was too short
              If the Argentines had Harriers, they would use
              Another argument for VTOL aircraft
          2. +1
            24 September 2021 21: 01
            Quote: Avior
            The British put her in such conditions, having correctly positioned the ships.
            And the Argentines did not use their aircraft carrier at all.
            The British won the war for the Falklands, driving the nuclear submarine into the theater of operations, which prevented Argentina from using its fleet. Everything else was secondary.
            1. 0
              25 September 2021 08: 52
              The Argentines also had submarines. Their effectiveness was only zero.
              1. 0
                25 September 2021 19: 56
                Quote: Avior
                Their effectiveness was only zero.

                Which by the way surprises. We went out to strike distance several times but ..
                1. 0
                  26 September 2021 10: 38
                  even if they drowned some kind of frigate or destroyer of the British, this would not lead to their refusal to continue the operation
      2. -1
        24 September 2021 13: 52
        So much has been written about the Falklands Campaign ...
        As a result, if the opponent were more advanced, we would have seen the "Malvinas Islands" on the map for a long time ...
        And in reality, Britain would have won even without the Harriers, it would have won in any scenario, because the forces / levels of the opponents were categorically unequal.
        But with the fact that it is better to have a fighter than not to have - of course I agree.
        1. 0
          24 September 2021 14: 13
          ... Britain would have won without the Harriers, it would have won in any case, because the forces / levels of the opponents were categorically unequal.

          The Argentine forces in the theater of operations were much larger
          And the fact that the British had in England is irrelevant
      3. 0
        24 September 2021 20: 58
        Quote: Niko
        But the British in the Falklands proved to everyone smart: it is better to HAVE a fighter where it is needed than not to have it where it is needed
        The British showed that if you put on VTOL aircraft, you will only deal with the protection of their aircraft carrier, and carry out all other operations "in your spare time."
        1. +1
          25 September 2021 08: 54
          as well as groups of ships. And this is the most important function.
          And that's what the Marine Harriers did. Overland - by strikes along the coast.
    3. +3
      24 September 2021 17: 46
      Quote: Doccor18
      The classic fighter is better in almost everything ...
      If you have a CLASSIC aircraft carrier. And if there is no such thing? What to do then. That's right - VTOL aircraft.
      But for this you need to have ONE engine, so as not to burn 50% of the fuel for takeoff / landing and not to constantly carry the PDs needed only for the same takeoff / landing.
      Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov once mentioned that we are working on a modern VTOL aircraft. And the main difficulty lies in the fact that there is not yet a powerful single engine for such a machine. New types of fuels, new composites, heat-resistant coatings, 3D technologies - all this will advance engine building to the line of "decision-making" and God willing - we will see the great-grandson of the Yak-38/141 in the air in the 30th year (this century!)
      IMHO.
      1. 0
        24 September 2021 19: 39
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        If you have a CLASSIC aircraft carrier. And if there is no such thing? What to do then. That's right - VTOL aircraft.

        This is if there is a non-classic aircraft carrier. And if not? What to do then?
  3. +3
    24 September 2021 07: 50
    ... Vertical take-off: a dead-end direction or the future of combat aviation

    Neither one nor the other. This is a stable niche in modern aviation. In the transport it was occupied by helicopters, and now a tiltrotor began to appear, and in the combat fighter and strike - VTOL aircraft.
    You need to understand that they apply in the case when there is no choice of the type of aircraft - or VTOL or nothing. Like a UDK or a light aircraft carrier, for example.
    1. -1
      24 September 2021 09: 01
      Quote: Avior
      You need to understand that they are used in the case when there is no choice of the type of aircraft - or VTOL aircraft or nothing

      Not only, the F-35 does not buy the A version of the F-30, only the V version for the army and the navy.
      1. 0
        24 September 2021 12: 26
        Quote: Liam
        Not only the VB does not buy the F-35 version A, only the V.I. version for the army and the navy.

        Force of habit smile - the British have previously used KVVP aircraft both in the Navy and in the Air Force.
        1. +3
          24 September 2021 12: 33
          And they were convinced of their effectiveness
        2. 0
          24 September 2021 12: 37
          They used them in the Falklands too. From land. They know what they do in general.
          1. -1
            24 September 2021 13: 12
            Quote: Liam
            They used them in the Falklands too. From land. They know what they do in general.

            Well, if the enemy has given up air supremacy, then you can at least fight on the maize. With a reaction time of the enemy's IA of a couple of hours and a radius of "end-to-end to the islands", SCVVP can frolic with impunity.
            But if the args had a short trunk args could retrofit the Port Stanley airfield for the basing of normal machines ...
            1. -1
              24 September 2021 13: 18
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Well, if

              Quote: Alexey RA
              But if

              Quote: Alexey RA
              could retrofit the Port Stanley airfield for the basing of normal machines ...

              That's just the point. noomal
              planes need a real airfield, which is not always and not everywhere, but equipping is a long and not always possible task. Besides, if you re-equip a couple of dozen RCs, you will arrive again without an airfield and without aviation. It was so then and nothing has changed now
      2. +1
        24 September 2021 12: 34
        Well, they have classic ones too
        1. 0
          24 September 2021 12: 36
          Quote: Avior
          Well, they have classic ones too

          F-35A?
          1. +2
            24 September 2021 12: 46
            On f35a, the light did not converge like a wedge
            Will order later, when the old ones finalize the resource
            1. -1
              24 September 2021 13: 06
              F-35Vs are replacing Tornadoes in the army, while EF will be replaced by Tempest
    2. -1
      24 September 2021 10: 50
      In order not to invent, but the type and method of energy conversion remains the same everywhere. Without changing the fundamentals of the propulsion and rocket principles, they remain limited since turbo-fuel blowers also work in a limited physical parameter. transformations.
  4. +4
    24 September 2021 07: 52
    1. On land, VTOL aircraft cannot withstand competition.
    2. VTOL aircraft - Small batch machine
    3 unification with the main fighter harms the main fighter.
    4 which is more expensive? 100tn. aircraft carrier + deck boat or UDC up to 50 tn. and small-scale VTOL aircraft with special pilots?
    1. 0
      24 September 2021 10: 30
      1. On land, VTOL aircraft cannot withstand competition.

      Harrier has been used effectively and for a long time in Afghanistan
      was used for quick reaction to the situation from small sites
      4 which is more expensive? 100tn. aircraft carrier + deck boat or UDC up to 50 tn. and small-scale VTOL aircraft with special pilots?

      100tn. aircraft carrier + deck - much more expensive.
      what's in use, what's in construction. And it costs much more in repairs - two of them are needed for the constant readiness of one
      1. +1
        24 September 2021 10: 31
        Is it effective in comparison with the A-10 or Su25?
        1. -2
          24 September 2021 10: 39
          So.
          Their stay was extended several times.
          And the A-10, like the Su-25, could not replace them in principle.
          1. +2
            24 September 2021 12: 13
            I don't believe ... ... in the USSR Air Force in Afghanistan, the Su25 were able to replace everything ..., but the better armed A10 could not?
            1. +1
              24 September 2021 12: 26
              Questions of faith cannot be refuted by reasonable arguments, I will not even try.
              smile
              Harrier solved the tasks of operational strikes, for example, against the enemy's caravan, until he disappeared from the sight of observers, based as close as possible to the area of ​​hostilities. A10 and Su25 until they reach, they had to look for them. If you were lucky, they found it.
              hi
              1. +3
                24 September 2021 12: 55
                Harrier in Afghanistan with a typical load needed 900 meters to take off from the concrete, this is the level of the "horizontal"
                1. 0
                  24 September 2021 13: 01
                  ... As it turned out, with the current state of the runway at the Kandahar airfield, of the fighter and attack aircraft in service with the coalition countries, only "Harriers" can operate from it.
                2. +2
                  24 September 2021 17: 50
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Harrier in Afghanistan with a typical load needed 900 meters to take off from the concrete, this is the level of the "horizontal"


                  A horizontal line of comparable mass in the same conditions required 1,5 km there.

                  For takeoff with a full refueling and a combat load of 500-600 kg in an Afghan high-altitude hot climate, the Yak-38 light attack aircraft needed a section of a conventional or prefabricated metal runway or a paved road with a length of only 250-300 m.
                  whereas a conventional fighter of the same dimension, the MiG-21, required a concrete runway with a length of 1500 m.And for take-off with a maximum combat load of 1700-2000 kg - the Yak-38 would need a section of the runway or road with a length of only 500-700 m ...
                  When returning, landing on a protected site is carried out almost vertically, and on an unprotected, hard surface - with a range of several tens of meters. it
                  allows you to fly from operational runways near the combat area.


                  "Wings of the Motherland" 7.2009
    2. +1
      24 September 2021 20: 18
      Quote: Zaurbek
      1. On land, VTOL aircraft cannot withstand competition.
      2. VTOL aircraft - Small batch machine
      3 unification with the main fighter harms the main fighter.
      4 which is more expensive? 100tn. aircraft carrier + deck boat or UDC up to 50 tn. and small-scale VTOL aircraft with special pilots?

      Well, VTOL supporters also know how to put facts in the right light, I am not a supporter of the F-35 scheme, BUT: but it will sound something like "that one type of VTOL aircraft or dozens of types of aircraft and helicopters are more expensive", in general NNP it makes no sense to discuss this context in such a form.
  5. +4
    24 September 2021 07: 52
    In general, it is necessary to compare according to the performance of tasks.
    For aircraft:
    1) the conquest of air supremacy;
    2) attacking military targets with active enemy countermeasures;
    3) bombardment of military and non-military targets with weak opposition;
    4) transportation;
    5) landing;
    6) intelligence.
    What is the advantage of a VTOL aircraft to perform tasks?
    1. mvg
      0
      24 September 2021 09: 25
      What is the advantage of a VTOL aircraft to perform tasks?

      Survival. It will be necessary to sit on a container ship or an unprepared highway site
      1. KCA
        +2
        24 September 2021 11: 58
        It can only fall on a container ship, as well as on an unprepared lane, which is why both the container ship and the lane are unprepared, there are no control systems for boarding
        1. mvg
          0
          29 September 2021 20: 50
          he can only fall,

          Well then, bring up the history of the Falklands when the Harriers took off from Atlantis. Then he was sunk together with a couple of helicopters. Very revealing. Without special, fireproof deck, etc. In the sense of no special equipment for landing.
      2. +1
        24 September 2021 12: 15
        The helicopter is more unpretentious to the sites than the VTOL aircraft with a turbojet engine, there are a lot of their own difficulties.
      3. +1
        25 September 2021 01: 57
        The British used container ships as auxiliary aircraft carriers during the Falklands War. By the way, the Argentines sank one.
  6. +2
    24 September 2021 07: 56
    "Harriers" showed themselves quite well in the service of the British and American Armed Forces
    It's bad: one third of the amers just crashed, and when the war in the Gulf began, 0.1 of the imported ones were ready, it took 2 weeks for repairs.
    1. 0
      24 September 2021 12: 31
      Quote: bk0010
      It's bad: one third of the amers just crashed, and when the war in the Gulf began, 0.1 of the imported ones were ready, it took 2 weeks for repairs.

      In Desert Storm, the American Harriers, EMNIP, still had the highest percentage of combat damage and loss. But here the problems with tactics are more to blame - they tried to use the KVVP as classic battlefield aircraft (written "AV" means Attack, stormtrooper, so fly and storm), for which they had insufficient survivability and too strong infrared exhaust.
  7. 0
    24 September 2021 08: 08
    Honestly, I don’t know, but when Yak38 bombed Afghanistan ???
    1. +2
      24 September 2021 09: 12
      I don’t remember the year .... we started simultaneously with the Su25 .... they made mobile platforms on trucks.
    2. +4
      24 September 2021 12: 38
      Quote: Andrey VOV
      Honestly, I don’t know, but when Yak38 bombed Afghanistan ???

      April-May 1980
      At the beginning of 1980, by decision of the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Aviation Industry, an experienced squadron was formed of two Su-25 attack aircraft and four Yak-38 VTOL aircraft (sides "25", "53", "54", "55"). The test program included an assessment of operation in autonomous basing conditions, checking the operation of the sight and radio equipment when flying in gorges, studying the possibility of taking off from damaged runways and a comprehensive study of the combat effectiveness of VTOL aircraft in high altitude and high temperatures.

      After the necessary preparation, on April 18, 1980, the squadron's personnel were relocated to the Shindad airfield in northern Afghanistan. Its concrete runway, almost 3000 m long, was located on a mountain plateau at an altitude of 1140 m above sea level. Nearby, specifically for the Yak-38, another runway, about 150 m long, was built with a coating of metal plates and fiberglass. The next day, April 19, the An-22 was delivered "vertical". On April 21, preliminary preparations were carried out, and on the 23rd, flights began. These were mainly short takeoffs and landings with a run. They flew mainly from a concrete runway, because the metal strip fell into disrepair after five SRS and one vertical takeoff. In total, 38 flights were performed in Afghanistan on the Yak-107 in combat conditions in pairs and alone, accompanied by the Su-17. The program ended on May 29. The experience gained has shown the urgent need to increase the thrust-to-weight ratio of the aircraft and its accelerating characteristics when performing the research and development work, since in conditions of low air density and heat reaching 35 C, the loss of thrust of the power plant reached 1500 kgf.
      © Yuri Lunev, airwar.ru
      1. 0
        24 September 2021 13: 19
        ... the metal strip after five SRS and one vertical takeoff fell into disrepair

        When the metal strips were laid, sand was poured under them to level
        And he was blown out after takeoff
  8. +2
    24 September 2021 08: 17
    Although no, I found it, there were actually 4 planes, one was lost, they were cleanly tested, they bombed, well, how ... 2 bombs of 250 kg each and 40 minutes of flight ...
    From February 80 to summer 80 ...
  9. +4
    24 September 2021 08: 18
    Until VTOL vertical takeoff is implemented on sustainer engines, all this is complete nonsense due to the critical increase in weight. Not only because of the power plant, but also because it needs to be placed somewhere, which means it increases the required volume and weight of the airframe.
    1. +2
      24 September 2021 08: 36
      Until vertical takeoff of VTOL aircraft is not implemented on sustainer engines,

      On the British "Harrier" this very scheme was implemented. Dvigun "Pegasus".
      1. +1
        24 September 2021 09: 01
        Therefore, it was not as bad as the Yak-38, which, although larger, had less payload. That's just there the nozzle still needs to be twisted, that is, there is a corresponding. mechanisms.
        1. 0
          24 September 2021 19: 22
          Better, of course, was, but "Pegasus" was being finalized for almost 20 years.
    2. -1
      24 September 2021 10: 57
      And this is only a small part of the problematic. For example, the issues and methods of distribution of both incoming flows and those leaving the engine can be solved without changing the power of the flow itself or the operating mode of the engine. This will drastically simplify the flight control mechanism. Moreover, modern technologies do not use the energy of exhaust streams, and the recirculation process will significantly compact and reduce the exhaust stream of the stream.
      This will allow you to take off and land on any unprepared surfaces without destroying them.
  10. +3
    24 September 2021 08: 20
    The Arabs are now not at all what they were during the "Seven Day War".
    Yeah, especially in Yemen. The only difference is that earlier they were beaten by Israel, comparable in terms of military resources, and now by rebels with a rifleman and an RPG. What's next? Will teenagers be beaten with sticks and mamzels in burqas?
  11. +5
    24 September 2021 08: 31
    There is an official Lockheed website for the F-35. There is no point in using Wikipedia, there are too many errors there, especially in Russian.
    https://www.f35.com/f35/index.html

    https://www.f35.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/f35/documents/FG21-00000_001%20F35FastFacts9_2021.pdf
  12. +2
    24 September 2021 09: 02
    as soon as the engines become much smaller and more powerful, vertical take-off will be commonplace, and the layout of the aircraft will change.
    1. +1
      24 September 2021 09: 13
      The only question is - When? And is there any technical groundwork for this? Or wait for the fusion?
      1. 0
        24 September 2021 10: 01
        I think a little even later
    2. +1
      24 September 2021 09: 29
      "Much smaller and more powerful" - in the foreseeable future will not. New materials and fuel are needed. Where can I get them? The turbojet engine has reached the limit in its perfection.
  13. +3
    24 September 2021 09: 24
    In the USSR, VTOL technology was advanced at that time, and the Yak-141 was probably the best in the world at that time. But now these technologies have already been largely lost, the Saratov plant, where they were produced, was demolished in the dashing 2000s.
    We cannot bring to mind an ordinary fifth generation fighter, there are no projects of a light fighter to replace the MiG-29. Why dream of non-marketing dreams of VTOL aircraft, if there is no money for the purchase of a ready-made Su-57 in normal quantities?
  14. +2
    24 September 2021 09: 30
    How much can you write about a flawed concept? The ability to take off and land vertically implies that the aircraft carries special equipment, which has a certain mass. This mass can be used for additional fuel (this gives the range), improved avionics, or additional ammunition. As a result, everything leads to the fact that VTOL aircraft will take off with a shortened takeoff, but will carry this "additional mass" to the detriment of range, avionics, weapons.
  15. +13
    24 September 2021 09: 50
    Do not forget that the most difficult part is the rotary nozzle, the Americans supposedly "borrowed" from the Soviet Р79В-300 (item 79).

    That is, if it is very strongly conjectural. And to be exact ...
    In 1964, the British developed this most rotary nozzle for use in the German-British development of the VJ-101E fighter - specifically used for the Rolls-Royce RB.153-76A engine.

    The engine was built and tested on the bench along with the nozzle, but the development of the aircraft stalled.
    A little later, the Americans from General Dynamics tried to use this engine (later the company entered Lockheed-Martin, the manufacturer of F35) for their model 200 - there was this engine and two lifting ones.


    But the model 200 was not finally created - it was made for the "Ship of control of the sea", but at that time the concept of the ship was abandoned, the plane was not needed.
    At the end of the 80s, the model 200 scheme, including the nozzle scheme developed by Rolls-Royce in 1964, was reproduced on the Yak-141, but the aircraft also did not go into production due to an accident.
    In 1986, with the filing of the Marine Corps, the Americans announced the design of the VTOL aircraft. Lockheed employee Paul Bevilaqua, who had a doctorate in aeronautics, and a number of patents on VTOL aircraft, after a deep study of various schemes of VTOL power plants, in 1990 patented a scheme with a lifting fan and a rotary nozzle, which became the basis of the F35V power plant and implemented it together with a lifting fan and a deflected nozzle in the form of a stand based on the Pratt and Whitney F100-229 engine - the "F100-229-Plus" demonstration engine.
    Later, Lockheed-Martin, when developing an engine for the F-135 based on the F119 from the F-22, turned to the recognized leader in the field of engines for VTOL aircraft, the Rolls-Royce company, which finally developed the F35V power plant based on the F119 engine and the lifting fan they developed and its old design - a rotary nozzle.

    This is the real history of creation, without assumptions, but in fact
    hi
    1. 0
      25 September 2021 23: 12
      This is the real history of creation, without assumptions, but in fact

      No, this is the official version. In which there are a lot of nuances.

      In the late 80s, the model 200 design, including the nozzle design developed by Rolls-Royce in 1964, was reproduced on the Yak-141.

      This is a frank pulling of an owl on a globe. From the category "more than 20 years later, the Germans, having created a tiger tank, repeated the Renault FT17 scheme, including the idea of ​​an armored box on tracks created by the British in 1916.
      1. 0
        26 September 2021 10: 28
        this is the official version

        Give a link to the official source in which all this is stated, it is interesting to read
        This is a frank pulling of an owl on a globe.

        You have, yes, pulling.
        (Not to mention the fact that the Tiger's powerplant scheme was different from Renault's - the Tiger had a front-mounted transmission, if you are not aware)
        But in reality, among a fairly large number of VTOL powerplant schemes, the Yak-141 scheme completely repeated exactly Conveyor 200.
        1. 0
          26 September 2021 22: 23
          Give a link to the official source in which all this is stated, it is interesting to read

          There is no such link. But according to the statements of those involved - you (I think it will be easier to communicate with "YOU", and I suggest to do without "YOU") and made it up.
          You have, yes, pulling.

          Of course. I deliberately selected a more funky example.
          But in reality, among a fairly large number of VTOL powerplant schemes, the Yak-141 scheme completely repeated exactly Conveyor 200.

          In reality, the installation scheme for the Yak-141 engines was a development of the Yak-38 scheme, which had been completed since 70 (the first flight of the Yak-38). Those. direct development of your own idea.
          And the same model 200 was not implemented in metal (the project, most likely only a sketch, which was about the same time when the Yak-38 began to fly). It seems like the rotary nozzle passed the test. But it is not clear what happened to the afterburner, including during vertical takeoff. And most likely there was no information in open sources.
          So it turns out the convergent evolution of VTOL aircraft from one side and the other, if we are not talking about the F-35.
          And here again there is a nuance. The Americans have worked out a bunch of VTOL aircraft schemes. Much has been built in metal. But for some reason they really like to poke a finger into an absolutely paper model 200, talking about the yak-141, completely ignoring the presence of the yak-38, as a predecessor.
          1. 0
            27 September 2021 00: 00
            ... But according to the statements of those involved - you (I think it will be easier to communicate with "YOU", and I suggest to do without "YOU") and made it up.

            I think it's better for you.
            All that I have written is strictly on the facts.
            But you have a problem with that.
            The example with the Tiger is taut, it has a layout with a middle arrangement of the fighting compartment, Renault has a front one. The layout of the power plant is also different.
            You have a similar situation with the Yak-38. Also tight, to put it mildly. It had a completely different design of the lift-sustainer engine than that of the Yak-141, if you are not in the know, and has nothing in common with the f-35v.

            Yak-38 nozzles repeat the rear nozzles of the English Harrier

            Threat The power plant model 200 was implemented in metal - this engine is shown in the photo in the post above
            hi
            1. 0
              27 September 2021 02: 22
              I think it's better for you.

              Approx.
              All that I have written is strictly on the facts.

              Based on the known facts that you have taken from open sources.
              The example with the Tiger is taut, it has a layout with a middle arrangement of the fighting compartment, Renault has a front one.

              The example with the tiger and Renault is only needed to show how grotesque your judgment is. Why drag him further if you caught the analogy?
              if you do not know, and has nothing in common with the f-35v.

              I mentioned the F-35 only once, saying that we are taking it out of the scope of our discussion. I propose to stick to this for now. And I know what the power plant is.
              You have a similar situation with the Yak-38. Also tight, to put it mildly. It had a completely different design of the lift-sustainer engine than that of the Yak-141, if you are not in the know, and has nothing in common with the f-35v.

              So, let's define the terms. You said:
              among a fairly large number of VTOL powerplant schemes

              The power plant is:
              (SU) of an aircraft - a set of an aircraft engine (engines), systems and devices of an aircraft, providing the creation of the thrust necessary for flight.

              I was not talking about the SU, but about the engine installation scheme.
              So - the installation diagram of the Yak-141 engines is the development of the Yak-38 power plant, despite the difference in the design of the nozzle (nozzles) of the lifting sustainer engine. And they brought to mind the scheme 1 lifting main engines + 2 lifting engines located asymmetrically to the center of gravity was done on the yak. And all this took a very long time, in fact, to normal reliability they brought about the appearance of the yak-38m.
              1. +1
                27 September 2021 10: 13
                installation diagram of the Yak-141 engines is the development of the Yak-38 power plant, despite the difference in the design of the nozzle (nozzles) of the lifting propulsion engine

                For a supersonic aircraft like the Yak-141, such a scheme was first developed in the model 200 project, and repeated on the Yak-141.
                I mentioned the F-35 only once, saying that we are taking it out of the scope of our discussion.

                actually my post was about the history of the design of the rotary nozzle on the F35V.
                By the way, the model 200 project also included an aircraft with horizontal take-off - model 201, which was later implemented in the F35 family.
                The example with the tiger and Renault is only needed to show how grotesque your judgment is. Why drag him further if you caught the analogy?

                from this "example" I caught that you are arguing about things about which you have a vague idea. Moreover, as it turned out that you are not aware that Model 200 and VJ101 are projects of supersonic aircraft.
                1. 0
                  27 September 2021 13: 57
                  1.) And for the tank, the first study was done by Leonarodo Da Vinci? Or is it all the same for the British in PMV?
                  2.) We cannot figure out what happened before the F-35.
                  3.) I already answered the oversound topic under another comment. In addition, the VJ-101 is subsonic. Super sonic n d and e variants, which are completely different devices.
            2. 0
              27 September 2021 03: 28
              Threat The power plant model 200 was implemented in metal - this engine is shown in the photo in the post above

              Yes, I have seen. But one engine and a fully finished aircraft are two big differences. In addition, I never found information that this engine and nozzle were due to the afterburner.
              1. 0
                27 September 2021 09: 54
                Probably, you should take a closer interest in the issue that you undertook to discuss, otherwise there will be an embarrassment again, like with the Tiger, for whom you did not know the layout.
                VJ101 and model 200 - projects of supersonic aircraft, if you are not in the know, and if this tells you something.
                1. 0
                  27 September 2021 11: 29
                  Avior, you embarrass me.
                  1.) You do not need to read what I write as you want, you need to read as it is written. And you are talking to yourself here.
                  About the tiger, I wrote that the Germans repeated the Renault scheme - the layout scheme (control compartment in front, fighting compartment in the center, engine compartment in the back, armament in a rotating turret.
                  About the power plant, as you have already begun to write the system - it is not clear why.
                  2.) I don't have to write about this, I understood what you meant when you said that the model is 200 and VJ101e (here I also won't use to write what exactly E, because VJ101 could only dial 1.04. I also perfectly understood what you wanted to say). But there is also a non-afterburner over the sound, and the English lightning of the 60s could fly in this mode (there was an afterburner on the engines, but for a supersonic flight it (lightning) did not have to fly with the engines in afterburner mode.
                  3.) When asking about the possibility of afterburner, I asked about the possibility of using afterburner during takeoff when the nozzle is deflected by 90 and 45 degrees, for the very first time. In addition, since we are talking about engines that just got to the stands, but were supposed to be used on airplanes that did not leave the design stage and were not built in metal, the question is also what happened there when working in different modes, were you able to implement both the rotary nozzle and the afterburner there?
                  In addition, the model 100 and VJ101e differ from the Yak-141 in terms of the lifting force creation scheme. The first was planned to be built according to the duck scheme, and the second was supposed to have as many as 4 pd and 2 pmd, with an extremely unusual position of the air intakes - above the fuselage, shaded both by the fuselage itself (here only during WRC) and located behind the air sampling zone pd ( this played a role in both SRS and normal vertical take-off).
                  1. 0
                    27 September 2021 12: 04
                    Avior, you embarrass me.

                    I am not imposing on this topic, your arguments in this topic seem far-fetched to me, but you repeat them from the post.
                    the Germans repeated the Renault scheme

                    for the Germans, the transmission is in the front of the tank, and the control and combat compartment is in the center.
                    Renault has a transmission in the rear, respectively, the layout of both the tank and the power module is different.
                    One could write that the placement of weapons in the turret was taken from Renault, which is what he is known for, but at the time of the creation of the Tiger, the vast majority of tanks had weapons in the turret.
                    2.
                    I also will not apply to write what exactly E, because VJ101 could only dial 1.04.

                    And how much did the Yak-141 gain?
                    3.
                    we are talking about engines that just got to the stands, but were supposed to be used on aircraft that did not leave the design stage and were not built in metal

                    with your approach, you automatically need to add that the Yak-141 crashed during tests with a vertical landing, which showed that the scheme was erroneous in the context of your reasoning. This, in fact, is even worse than it was not implemented in metal, from the point of view of a possible repetition of the design.
                    I asked about the possibility of using the afterburner during takeoff when the nozzle is deflected by 90 and 45 degrees

                    if you think the issue is important, please provide the necessary information and explain the importance. Why are you asking me about this?
                    The first was planned to be built according to the duck pattern

                    not related to the VTOL scheme
                    the second was supposed to have as much as 4 pd and 2 pmd

                    has nothing to do with the nozzle
                    with an extremely unusual position of the air intakes - above the fuselage

                    The Yak-141, Yak-38 Conveyr model 200, VTOL Mirage III-V of the French company "Dassault" also had an upper arrangement of air intakes

                    I don't see what to discuss.
                    You, in my opinion, have an unformulated goal and deliberately far-fetched arguments, and I only waste time discussing them.
                    hi
                    1. 0
                      27 September 2021 13: 46
                      Posting a smiley for taking off your hat is certainly easier than admitting your mistakes.
                      1.) Open any description of the tiger and read - the tank has a classic line-up. The presence of a front-mounted transmission does not negate this. In contrast, we read about the BMP-1 line-up, with a front-mounted MTO.
                      2.) Mach 1.7
                      3.)
                      - you do not need to attract your thoughts on tests, planes often fight. For example, when testing harriers, there were losses of experimental vehicles.
                      - there are statements that the Yak-141 was the first aircraft on which the afterburner was implemented when the nozzle was deflected by 90 degrees. This already means that the Yakovlevna Design Bureau did not "repeat the British scheme 20 years later." But that ruins your description.
                      - the airplane scheme (duck) affects the take-off process, both vertical due to the flow of gas and the airplane on the ground, and takeoff with a short run.
                      - the number and location of the engine really has no direct relation to the nozzle, but such little things are important to you, then they are not important - make up your mind.
                      -and now compare the scheme of the mirage with the scheme VJ-101E, pay special attention to where the air intakes of the lifting and lifting main engines, respectively, are relative to the air intakes of the PD.
                      1. 0
                        27 September 2021 14: 07
                        1.) Open any description of the tiger and read - the tank has a classic line-up. The presence of the front location of the transmission does not negate this.

                        the layout of the tank changes
                        2.) Mach 1.7

                        Give a link, when and on what tests it showed such speed
                        You take the actually shown supersonic speed from the German, not the calculated one.
                        - you do not need to attract your thoughts on tests, planes often fight. For example, when testing harriers, there were losses of experimental vehicles.

                        and with further tests, the performance of the Harrier circuit was fully confirmed
                        What can not be said about the Yak-141 scheme
                        - there are statements that the Yak-141 was the first aircraft on which the afterburner was implemented when the nozzle was deflected by 90 degrees.

                        there are many very different statements. someone said something, that's a statement. Give a link to proof of fact.
                        This already means that the Yakovlevna Design Bureau did not "repeat the British scheme 20 years later."

                        repeated, this is a fact. Both the British and the Americans.
                        - the airplane scheme (duck) affects the take-off process, both vertical due to the flow of gas and the airplane on the ground, and takeoff with a short run.

                        far-fetched and not confirmed by anything, which has a significant impact.
                        - the number and location of the engine really has no direct relation to the nozzle, but such little things are important to you, then they are not important - make up your mind.

                        has no direct, why did you bring him?
                        -and now compare the scheme of the mirage with the scheme of VJ-101E, pay special attention to where the air intakes are at the lifting and lifting main engines, respectively

                        the mirage has air intakes at the top of the fuselage, and you claimed that supposedly
                        with an extremely unusual position of the air intakes - above the fuselage

                        there is nothing extraordinary in the arrangement of the air intakes at the top of the fuselage. In any case, it has nothing to do with the nozzle
                        There is no point in discussing something with your frankly contrived arguments.
                        hi
                      2. 0
                        27 September 2021 14: 32
                        Very comfortably. If we like the argument - we will cling to it until victorious, even if this argument was not expressed by the opponent and has nothing to do with the discussion - hello tiger to the transmission.
                        I do not like the argument - it is far-fetched. Here, in complete analogy to the tiger transmission, there is a duck diagram for the 200 model.
                        And if you are asked a direct question, we begin maneuvers until the moment when the same question can be pereaddressed to the opponent. This is already about the afterburner when the nozzle is turned. This is a question that has popped up 3 times! 3. And he either ignores me, or the answer, well, he is over sound. Moreover, the sound can be non-afterburning from the age of 60.
                      3. +1
                        27 September 2021 15: 50
                        if you have an argument, give it.
                        but not contrived.
                        and not in the form of a question.
                        and as an argument with a reference to the proof
                        this is not an argument
                        - there are statements that the Yak-141 was the first aircraft on which the afterburner was implemented when the nozzle was deflected by 90 degrees.

                        this is an empty phrase
                        success
                        hi
                      4. 0
                        27 September 2021 16: 10
                        This is an empty phrase, but a specific question was asked 3 times before it, to which the answer was only hints, while the most important part of this question does not affect.
                      5. +1
                        27 September 2021 16: 31
                        and you do not ask questions, but cite the facts on the merits - then there will be a subject for discussion
                        hi
                      6. 0
                        28 September 2021 00: 51
                        Here's a fact for you - the Yak-141 engine can in the afterburner with a deflected nozzle.
                        Here is your statement - the Yak nozzle - a repeat of the PP projects.
                        Here is the Question - can the PP and Model 200 engines do this?
                        I ask this question at 5! once. The first time I asked it in the very first message. Stop maneuvering and respond to him. You, who are claiming that the R-79B-300 is simply a repetition of the developments of the British and Americans, must prove this.
                      7. 0
                        28 September 2021 08: 40
                        They can run on afterburner
                        There is no information anywhere that this is not the case with the deflected nozzle case.
                        If you have such information that they cannot, give a link.
                        At the same time, give a link - who and when said that the Yak-141 was the first who can use the afterburner with a deflected nozzle
                        As long as this statement comes only from you, it is not a fact, but an empty statement.
                        You, who are claiming that the R-79B-300 is simply a repetition of the developments of the British and Americans, must prove this.

                        I did not say that
                        Not a repetition of developments, but a repeated scheme.
                      8. 0
                        28 September 2021 10: 37
                        Link that is:
                        Yakovlev -... Buy Yakovlev Yak-36, Yak-38 and Yak-41: The Soviet Jump Jets
                        105 page is the very beginning. Another thing is that the book is about something else and there may be inaccuracies. That is why I am trying so persistently to get it from you.
                        Not a repetition of developments, but a repeated scheme

                        In the late 80s, the model 200 design, including the nozzle design developed by Rolls-Royce in 1964, was reproduced on the Yak-141.

                        If the PP engine really cannot in the afterburner, then there is no longer a question of repeating the "nozzle scheme".
                        Well, the very statement about repeating the layout of the model 200, as an aircraft that has not left the design stage, in the presence of a ready-made Yak-38 with a similar scheme (the only difference is in the PMD nozzles), which has been worked out for more than 15 years, is an extremely strange statement.
                      9. 0
                        28 September 2021 11: 00
                        Clear.
                        There is also a nuance in the fact that planes, as a rule, do not take off with afterburner, only in special cases. Among other things, in relation to VTOL aircraft, the question of the resistance of the coating to the jet after the afterburner arises - how long will this coating - decks or a concrete airfield - last?
                        Therefore, a whole complex of questions arises: how much is this option needed at all? And is it not allowed, for example, under special circumstances, to use the afterburner during takeoff in special cases, but not as a standard takeoff mode? Did the Yak-141 take off at all on afterburner?
                        Yak38 and Harrier, of course, did not take off - they had no afterburners.
                        In the 1990 patent, which I wrote about above, and on the basis of which the F35v power plant was built, it is the three-link nozzle that is depicted, that is, the authors either believed that this issue had been resolved or that it was not important.
                        There are a lot of questions, if you think it is necessary to raise this issue.
                        As for the book, Efim Gordon is a photographer, not an aeronautical designer, he rather has not books, but photo albums, so if there is no reference to the source, then this statement can hardly be taken seriously.
                        repetition of the "nozzle scheme" is out of the question

                        That the scheme is exactly the same is an obvious question. But the materials, yes, others could be used, 20 years have passed all the same.
                      10. 0
                        28 September 2021 11: 36
                        I will write without quotes, since it is very inconvenient to quote from the phone. My window reboots 3 times.
                        1. Afterburner takeoff.
                        For ground aviation, this is really not the main mode. But the deck ships just take off with the afterburner, either from the springboard or from the catapult.
                        2. Surface protection
                        On Soviet ships, the surface was laid out with fire-resistant tiles.
                        When the airfield was based, vertical take-off / landing sites with the same refractory tiles were orgasized.
                        Even now, the Americans, when taking off from their rods, hang one engine behind the deck, and install a special shield under the second, so that the half-lip does not jar. Although the exhaust gas turbine engine is far from the exhaust gas afterburner.
                        3. According to Gordon's book - he did not write it alone, but yes, I have doubts about the statement so categorically, so I did not refer to it right away.
                        4. By design of engines.
                        The question is how they will behave with afterburner and a deflected nozzle, when gases hit the obstacles located at 90 degrees, while there is not a monolithic structure, but two joints along the entire section of the pipe. In the descriptions of the Yakovlev machines, this is specially stipulated. It is noted that the vertical tag is up to 80% of the horizontal.
                        4. At the expense of the design of the mechanism itself - there is still the question of how the afterburner itself is arranged and where it is located.
                      11. 0
                        28 September 2021 12: 15
                        But the deck ships just take off with the afterburner, either from the springboard or from the catapult.

                        Harrier has no afterburners.
                        Although there is a takeoff mode.
                        2. Surface protection
                        On Soviet ships, the surface was laid out with fire-resistant tiles.

                        Under Ф35 it is similar. you need it without afterburner
                        3. According to Gordon's book - he did not write it alone, but yes, I have doubts about the statement so categorically, so I did not refer to it right away.

                        he just has photo albums, the texts there are the simplest
                        The question is how they will behave with the afterburner and the deflected nozzle, when gases hit the obstacles located at 90 degrees, while there is not a monolithic structure, but two joints along the entire section of the pipe.

                        this does not fundamentally change the nozzle design. Such a three-link nozzle was provided by the patent even before Lockheed's contacts with Yakovlev, although it is drawn in a simplified way in the patent. It would be nice to see the patent for the Yakovlev nozzle - is there any at all and what exactly is recorded in the novelty, it would be a substantive conversation. Lockheed could not just copy the design if it was protected by Yakovlev's patent, no matter what drawings he had. There would be a big scandal.
                      12. 0
                        28 September 2021 12: 57
                        I don't think Lockheed copied anything directly at all. Most likely, he looked at what was done, how it was done, what options were being worked out and what results were obtained. And on the basis of this data they have already done their own.
                      13. 0
                        28 September 2021 14: 17
                        This is a common practice for any development. This is what everyone always does. The first stage is patent search and search for existing solutions.
                        Undoubtedly, the results of work with Yakovlev are an element of the stage of searching for existing solutions and Lockheed used this information, and not only for the power plant. But...
                        They write that the development of the power plant for the F35 VTOL aircraft on the basis of the existing engine was carried out by RR, not Lockheed, and RR did it independently, on the basis of its own developments.
                      14. 0
                        29 September 2021 14: 06
                        But it is very doubtful that, having direct access to the Soviet developments, the RR did not use them.
                      15. 0
                        28 September 2021 11: 59
                        I found a book and read it. This is a photo album with short text. In principle, the phrase is constructed so ambiguously that it can be read in such a way that it can correspond to reality.

                        If you read the phrase as what practice is using on a real plane, then in practice it really was the first time.
                        Rolls-Royce engine with afterburner and deflected nozzle was not installed on a real plane, it was checked only at the stand.
                        But from this phrase it cannot be concluded that before this afterburner with a deflected nozzle was not allowed with a Rolls Royce engine.
                        In the next paragraph, by the way, it is written in the same ambiguous style that the design of the nozzle was patented and later Rolls Royce used this principle for the F-35V.
                        There is not a word about the development of Rolls Roysk itself. Either the author did not know, or is misleading the reader.
                      16. 0
                        28 September 2021 13: 43
                        Xs. It is possible that he did not know. On the other hand, the book is oriented towards the Western reader. So you can't guess.
                        At the same time, half of the domestic descriptions of yak - 141 contain this phrase.
  16. +1
    24 September 2021 10: 00
    It seems to me that comparing the cost of the F-35B with the A / C is not entirely objective. These three vehicles were originally developed with an eye to maximum unification. I read once that this circumstance - the need to support the "vertical" version - having made the F-35B cheaper, at the same time led to an increase in the cost of the F-35A and C. Well, this unification also had a bad effect on the flight characteristics of the "horizontal" versions.
    It is unlikely that we will similarly develop a VTOL aircraft based on some serial fighter, so a comparison of the cost of some hypothetical revived Yak-141 and the existing MiG-29, I think, will not be so beautiful.
  17. +1
    24 September 2021 10: 22
    Vertical take-off: a dead-end direction or the future of combat aviation

    Here in this article
    https://bukren.my1.ru/publ/ware/aviano_1/2-1-0-78
    the possibility of repeated use of the drone as the first stage (a kind of elevator) for the vertical launch of a conventional aircraft is being considered
    1. 0
      25 September 2021 09: 35
      Vertical take-off is solved by a fundamentally new type of propulsion device. Read about it in the article "Mercury is a propulsion device for a" flying saucer "published by Internauka. The technical solution is being patented.
  18. +1
    24 September 2021 10: 47
    Nice arguments. And about the performance characteristics and about the cost.

    And what small but heated debates are

    IMHO, VTOL aircraft with an improvement in the quality of the engine should be more demanding. Less lag due to greater weight, and more advantage due to mobility
  19. +2
    24 September 2021 11: 14
    A small patch for landing a VTOL aircraft is not just a concrete platform or a piece of highway, people and service technicians must revolve around the plane: communications, refueling, weapons, system checks, etc. Such an accumulation cannot be hidden from enemy reconnaissance and precision weapons.
    1. 0
      24 September 2021 12: 15
      It can land at a small airfield in the outback of Russia. This will not be particularly noticeable.
      1. +2
        24 September 2021 13: 55
        It is logical to hide strategists with a large radius of action in the outback. Should the VTOL aircraft be closer to the battle zone or are we again planning to retreat to Moscow along the Smolensk road?
    2. +2
      24 September 2021 12: 43
      It's all much less
      There are many sites - planes scattered, even a flight or a squadron and service personnel to them and fly
      And on ordinary ones you will have to concentrate in large quantities - there are few of them
      Accordingly, the target for reconnaissance and strike is much simpler.
  20. 0
    24 September 2021 11: 34
    If we take into account the complexity of the design, the unrealizability of supersonic and twin engines, the price of all this and the limited ammunition load and fuel reserve due to weight, while the engines are more powerful and lighter, plus they will not appear more compact, then the maximum take off is more of a burden. Well, if we take into account that we pathologically do not want to build normal roads (and they are suitable for how gdp), then maybe a couple of dozen svp in summer cottages in the forests may come in handy. (No)
  21. +1
    24 September 2021 12: 05
    The future belongs to such planes. This is especially important in the North, where there are no airfields with long take-off strips.
  22. +1
    24 September 2021 13: 50
    > In the end, finding a 100-150 meter site is much more difficult than a 500 meter runway

    It seems that the conventional satellite has absolutely no difference in the indicated runway length variability. You can, of course, assume that the satellites are everything, but in this way it is easy to slide into an endless circle of assumptions, of which there are enough in the article.

    There is certainly a limited range of tasks for VTOL aircraft, but their low prevalence speaks for itself. I will never believe in my life that aviation commanders of all countries of the world do not see their brilliant advantages)
  23. -3
    24 September 2021 14: 11
    Unconvincing article. Fuel consumption, short range, low load ultimately bury vertical takeoff. Pampering for the rich.
  24. +2
    24 September 2021 14: 49
    Simple physics: for takeoff with a range of about a hundred meters, you need to give an acceleration of about 5 w. With a run of 300 meters, the acceleration is about 2 w. It is not for nothing that they arrange catapults and springboards there. One and a half is enough for vertical takeoff.
    .
    The vertical takeoff and landing problem is a control problem. Energy and fuel are not spent on takeoff, they are spent on hovering due to the limited capabilities of the pilots. Automate the process and you will succeed.
    .
    The problems of insufficient combat load and range are solvable. The radius is increased by air refueling. True, this halves the number of starts. And simultaneously with the radius, it is possible to raise the combat load only if the aircraft is launched in tandem with the booster-booster. He, having 4-6 engines, will raise, accelerate the fighter and, having unhooked, will return to the aircraft carrier. Again, the problem is not in the hardware, but in the control system ...
    .
    I see the uselessness of variable wing geometry as the most important advantage of booster schemes.
    .
    The same Yak can be brought to good performance today due to automatic refueling in the air: it takes off with a minimum supply of fuel and tripled ammunition, and in the air it receives a double supply of fuel ...
  25. 0
    24 September 2021 20: 15
    Very interesting article. The topic of VTOL aircraft is very little covered. Does the same Bell V-22 Osprey also belong to VTOL aircraft? and like the F-35B, the remnants of the Hawker Siddeley Harrier or the Mohicans or the future aviation. Using highways for takeoff and landing of aircraft, the same Swedish Saab JAS 39 "Gripen" really worked out this topic and logistics. During the war, it is not enough to keep the runway in good condition, there is logic in this.
  26. 0
    24 September 2021 20: 26
    Thanks to the author for the article! A thoughtful approach to writing it, very fun to read!
  27. 0
    24 September 2021 21: 14
    At present, the level of automation of take-off and landing processes can be so high that a vertical or short take-off, like a vertical landing, will be much easier than on a classic aircraft.
    It won't help: the plane is controlled if the air flows around it. For a normal takeoff and landing on a VTOL aircraft, it is necessary to make a steering belt like anti-aircraft missiles.
    That in conditions of a surprise attack by the enemy, when the air group must be lifted into the air as quickly as possible
    For this, the planes must be ready, the finished plane needs 30 seconds to take off.
    The VTOL aircraft can return the payload with much lower loads - just visually compare the landing hardness of the F-35C and F-35B.
    Look at the chronicle: he flops down very hard.
    Disadvantages of VTOL aircraft:
    1) Low reliability
    2) High price
    3) Short flight range caused by colossal fuel consumption for take-off and landing, as well as the constant presence on board of equipment for vertical take-off, which in the main part of the flight is a dead weight.
    4) Low carrying capacity (there were cases that the Yaks could not take off in good weather).
    5) High complexity of manufacturing and piloting.
    But if you solve problem 1, then the possibility of an aerodromeless base will pay for everything (IMHO, of course). Even if the plane is purely subsonic (there will not be enough fuel for supersonic), the main thing is that the radar is for guided weapons.
    1. +3
      24 September 2021 22: 28
      Quote: bk0010
      Will not help

      It won't help if the F-35B automatically sits down and takes off. It is easier to control in these modes, and the pilot is not injured, unlike conventional deck ships.
      Quote: bk0010
      Disadvantages of VTOL aircraft

      Everything concerns the F-35B:
      1. It is more reliable than all 4th generation fighters.
      2. The price is lower than Eurofighter, Raphael, F-15 and on a par with the Su-35. 7% more expensive than the C and 23% more expensive than the A version.
      3. Combat radius is 25% less than that of A / C, but more than that of FA-18E / F
      4. The combat load differs by 17% from the A / C version, if we take into account that the Super Hornet will need to hang PTBs to achieve the same range, then B will have more armament.
      5. It is a little more expensive to produce and maintain, but on the contrary, it is easier to manage.

      What they have in the remnant is a fighter with a short take-off and a vertical landing in flight performance superior to the FA-18E / F Super Hornet, hundreds or thousands of times more invisible, with more advanced avionics. The price difference is around 25%. The choice is obvious.
      1. +1
        24 September 2021 23: 52
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        It is easier to control in these modes, and the pilot is not injured, unlike conventional deck ships.
        It is not controlled, it takes off easier, with gusts of wind it will be controlled no better than the old Harrier.
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        Everything concerns the F-35B:
        1. It is more reliable than all 4th generation fighters.
        There are no statistics yet, wait 3 years, the Angles, it seems, bought it for their aircraft carrier, so we'll see.
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        3. Combat radius is 25% less than that of A / C, but more than that of FA-18E / F
        This is an old joke: comparing VTOL aircraft without load or doing a short takeoff. With vertical takeoff and landing, the loss of radius of less than a third of a conventional aircraft can hardly be ensured.
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        4. The combat load differs by 17% from the A / C version, if we take into account that the Super Hornet will need to hang PTBs to achieve the same range, then B will have more armament.
        And what is the range with such a load do not write? VTOL aircraft either took off with full load, but "guarded the mast" or flew at an acceptable range, but without weapons. To be fully armed and fueled did not work.
  28. +2
    24 September 2021 21: 29
    IMHO (I'm biased by specialization, as they say), but I think that the future is just for "verticals" ... The possibility of an aerodromeless start and landing and, accordingly, the absence of binding to a bulky and, in principle, non-maskable infrastructure is a very serious tactical advantage. And given that the trend is towards drones and, accordingly, the absence of restrictions on the "pilot's qualifications" ... then the conclusion I think is unambiguous.
  29. +2
    24 September 2021 22: 34
    The author is great! The article is good, I fully support it.

    The information component in a future war is much more important than thinking about specific carrying capacity. VTOL aircraft is capable of taking off from a mine, from a tunnel, from a clearing in the forest and land on any hard surface, including any ships and barges. This makes it possible to tear it away from the infrastructure predictable for the enemy in the form of stationary and even temporary airfields. The ability to land anywhere allows you to use it with a much larger real combat radius than modern fighters, after all, they fly up to the enemy and especially back and fly to a landing strip suitable for landing. This, with a huge margin, compensates for the slightly shorter range.

    And the ability to suddenly take off to intercept from cover makes it many times more dangerous for the enemy strike forces. It is in the air that radars can see for hundreds of kilometers, and there is no one to neutralize an interceptor suddenly taking off from a mine or similar shelter right under the strike group.

    In general, very interesting prospects are visible. But there is a feeling that the aircraft should be more designed as a VTOL aircraft. Today's machines look more like conventional aircraft adapted to this capability. I think the designers will be able to dig up many interesting solutions here if the vertical landing becomes the main thing.
    1. 0
      25 September 2021 12: 40
      Quote: Saxahorse

      The information component in a future war is much more important than thinking about specific carrying capacity. VTOL aircraft is capable of taking off from a mine, from a tunnel, from a clearing in the forest and land on any hard surface, including any ships and barges.

      Inexpensive UDC for the Baltic, Black Sea, Far East (Russia), English Channel, Overseas territories (France) winked .

      Quote: Saxahorse
      The ability to land anywhere allows you to use it with a much larger real combat radius than modern fighters, after all, they fly up to the enemy and especially back and fly to a landing strip suitable for landing. This, with a huge margin, compensates for the slightly shorter range.

      And if the fighter is unmanned or with a large comfortable cockpit like that of the Su-34 (stand upright, toilet, kitchen), plus trained tankers, then this can replace strategic missile carriers.


      Quote: Saxahorse
      In general, very interesting prospects are visible. But there is a feeling that the aircraft should be more designed as a VTOL aircraft. Today's machines look more like conventional aircraft adapted to this capability. I think the designers will be able to dig up many interesting solutions here if the vertical landing becomes the main thing.

      It seems to me that the plane can be designed (the strength characteristics must be observed, the planes mostly fly horizontally and take off and land) for landing take-off in the Ilonsky way (well, like Elon Musk's missiles), and accordingly, it will stand vertically in the parking lot.
      1. 0
        25 September 2021 15: 18
        UDC for the Baltic and Black Sea? negative
        You have forgotten what the UDC is still needed for the Sea of ​​Azov and Lake Peipsi! And also for the Caspian!
        For the Baltic and Black Seas, high-speed vessels (SVP) are needed in the first echelon, and then ordinary transporters.
        UDCs are not needed, because these seas are shot through from the shores and blocked by coastal-based aviation. And such a huge trough is very noticeable and appetizing.
        UDC is for long trips.
        1. 0
          25 September 2021 15: 29
          Where will they go on a "long" campaign?
  30. 0
    24 September 2021 23: 55
    Another scheme of a VTOL aircraft of the flying wing type:

    In this scheme, the VTOL aircraft, like the Osprey tiltrotor, is equipped with a rotary turbojet engine (turbojet engine) and a lifting screw. The lifting screw is driven into rotation by the turbojet engine exhaust. After takeoff, the turbojet engine together with the lifting rotor is turned from horizontal to vertical position.
  31. -1
    25 September 2021 09: 32
    Vertical take-off is solved by a fundamentally new type of propulsion device. You can read about this in the article "Mercury - a propulsion device for a" flying saucer "published by Internauka. The technical solution is being patented.
    1. 0
      28 September 2021 20: 09
      You are so ridiculous that you cannot determine the functional place of mercury during flight support.
  32. -2
    25 September 2021 15: 07
    My deep couch opinion.
    1. The author's arguments about mobility and secrecy are unfounded. Since in the era of the presence of social networks, everyone's cameras, satellites and other things, finding the location of the airfield is not a very big problem. It is just as hard to start a war unexpectedly. However, the 21st century is in the yard.
    2. Modern engines have reached a unit of power. This means that in the near future, the power will increase even more, which will allow classic aircraft to take off with a low takeoff run.
    3. Where vertical landing is needed, there are enough helicopters, of which there are in the army in a wide variety and quantity. they are also trying to develop a high-speed helicopter. What if it works out? And the speed there is planned to be 500 km per hour.
    4. For VTOL aircraft, it is necessary to build a complete airfield complex with the exception of a long runway. The same parking lots and central locks, heating units, warehouses, etc. will have to be built. Any civil aircraft can be landed on a classic airfield, if necessary. Or, for the sake of economy, joint basing.
    5. The existing technologies for human movement in the atmosphere are in fact extremely costly and not environmentally friendly, ineffective, etc.
    6. Based on points 2-5, the development of vertical take-off by aircraft is not advisable. It is necessary to return to this issue when obtaining the possibility of movement in the atmosphere on other principles of the power plant operation.
  33. 0
    25 September 2021 17: 37
    the future of combat aviation is unmanned aircrafts. Those. requirements for acceptable g-forces during takeoff / landing disappear by themselves. This means that a mounted powder accelerator (and even complete with a springboard) can make practically any aircraft short takeoff aircraft. With a short fit, it is more difficult, but also quite solvable. (at least by parachute) But to create an aircraft with a purely vertical takeoff / landing is simply unnecessarily expensive (not to mention the operation).
  34. AML
    0
    25 September 2021 19: 54
    Quote: BoA KAA
    Quote: gridasov
    Moreover, mercantile interests.

    Gridasov! Is it possible that you also get money for such nonsense? Well, then for sure: you are an agent of the MOSSAD / MI6 / CIA and the secret police of Guinea Bissau! laughing

    The main thing is not to put it on the target designator.
  35. 0
    25 September 2021 22: 16
    There is a very similar in characteristics, but much more useful, in my opinion, apparatus - rotorcraft. I read that one of the Mi-28 projects had a radius of as much as 700 km - an unattainable figure for jet VTOL aircraft. Isn't it more correct to go in this direction? Well, for aircraft carriers, I consider flying boats to be more promising. Now super-maneuverability, which is contradicted by the new scheme, is no longer needed. After all, it is enough just to reach the line of attack and launch a missile - a task quite feasible for a flying boat. And takeoff and landing is many times easier than that of a conventional carrier-based aircraft.
  36. +1
    26 September 2021 11: 02
    Interesting article.
    In the future, with the development of technology, with the creation of more powerful and economical engines, VTOL aircraft will take over the functions of tactical aviation.
  37. 0
    27 September 2021 05: 57
    My logic (and I don’t complain about it at all - normal logic) has long been telling me that the current designs of fighters, in their motion by inertia of the traditional scheme, have very much missed the new possibilities that modern control electronics provide. What was impossible before her (vertical take-off and landing), with her has long been elementary. So it's high time to say: to hell with all the cumbersome and vulnerable infrastructure of the runway, to hell with the landing gear that makes the aircraft heavier and more complicated - let it sit in an automatic mode in a vertical position - on supports integrated into stabilizers or wings - and let it take off vertically from them. ... Why do you need this bulky and complex rotary nozzle? Why are the constructors so complicated and heavy? Without these complications and weightings, the aircraft will be much lighter, much simpler and much more reliable. On the ground, he will always stand upright, and will occupy a horizontal position only in flight. Will it be able to lift less cargo and fuel vertically? If you help him to quickly pick up the necessary speed when starting from the ground, he will take more than usual (especially if you consider that the usual one also has to carry a heavy retractable chassis mechanism with him). There are also rocket boosters, for example, which can tell an aircraft the missing thrust, and then, having given it the required speed, unhook it. You can also use some kind of catapult: the plane starts the engines, the automation fixes the required thrust - and throws the plane into the sky, giving it the necessary speed for the initial controlled flight - and then it itself - gets up horizontally and flies anywhere - in full gear and maximum takeoff weight. And if, in this weight, you suddenly need to urgently sit down, it abruptly dumps ballast - a significant part of its fuel, which is in a special discarded tank (or tanks) - and, having become much lighter, calmly sits on its platform or on any suitable one.
    And it's not worth talking about the advantages of such a runway-independent fighter aircraft compared to a dependent one - they are enormous.
  38. 0
    27 September 2021 17: 31
    VTOL is very useful for the proliferation of the use of UAVs from every combat ship, including the smallest, in order to add the new technologies to every ship. With unmanned technologies every combat ship can have unmanned AWACS.

    Taking into account the ships only big aircraft carriers are fairly more expensive than "light aircraft carriers", but big aircraft carriers can reach economic advantage if they allow the use of the main fighters, and as consequence they avoid the cost of development of a specific fighter (VTOL or not).

    The true disadvantage of the "light aircrafts carriers" compared to the big aircraft carriers is in fire power and as consequence in deterrence, conventional deterrence. The disadvantage is big enough to make them useless against big aircraft carriers.

    My understanding is that the ships of the Project 23900 do not pretend to be "light aircraft carriers", they are designed for the role and the service of Landing Ships.

    To compare VTOL F-35 with other F-35 has one problem. The performance of the main fighters is much better than the performance of the F-35. There is also a technological gap still between VTOL and the main fighters.
  39. -1
    28 September 2021 09: 45
    For the umpteenth time, they have been trying to show us the vertical takeoff and landing of the Fu-35, but apart from the ascent and careful lowering, they showed nothing. Takeoff is when he rose and without editing immediately gained flight speed. Landing is when the plane was flying, slowed down and lowered, without video editing. Neither one nor the other was in the videos presented. And nowhere, which is the most interesting.
  40. 0
    29 September 2021 15: 51
    The Yak-141 was a breakthrough, and the penguin was definitely the bottom. Pindocs could not even copy-paste normally.
    1. -1
      25 November 2021 19: 32
      - Phew, what a terribly patriotic and terribly stupid nonsense ... laughing lol
  41. 0
    29 September 2021 17: 17
    At the present stage of technological progress, this is an ineffective means. The thesis that they are effective if airfields are destroyed is not sustainable. If the airfields are destroyed, then you lost the air war.
  42. 0
    30 September 2021 17: 35
    Quote: Niko
    Quote: Doccor18
    Actually, there was already an article about VTOL aircraft, Timokhin, in my opinion, where he competently "landed" this type of aircraft ...
    For the United States, VTOL aircraft are needed primarily for landing them on UDC of the America type and for the formation of a larger number of aircraft carrying ships, because Fords cannot do much, even with a space budget.
    For other states, it is even difficult to find a reason for their design and acquisition ... The classic fighter is better in almost everything ...

    But the British in the Falklands proved to everyone smart: it is better to HAVE a fighter where it is needed than not to have it THERE where it is needed (even if it is worse than the one that is impossible to have where it is needed)

    Did you try to read?
  43. 0
    1 October 2021 08: 20
    A lot of people do not understand that any efficient energy devices that ensure effective flight, takeoff and landing are, first of all, potential energy converters. Either a separate fuel, or the external environment, which by the way is also fuel, or that and that in a balanced proportion. And it causes bewilderment that there are absolutely no constructive ideas for solving the problem. Everyone knows how to chat and criticize and take aim at the target designator, but not everyone is able to solve problems. It should be said that energy problems will not keep itself waiting for Russia itself. Therefore, it is still worth paying attention to projects to which there is now a very skeptical attitude. Otherwise, how not to look for the last straw.
  44. 0
    13 October 2021 22: 35
    The dead end is absolute. This is not from the internet
  45. 0
    24 October 2021 09: 04
    These verticals were given.
    If we reject the specific application - in carrier-based aircraft, then what is the main advantage of VTOL aircraft?
    First of all, it is a decoupling from airfields with a concrete runway, which is vulnerable to being hit by the enemy.
    But is it possible to achieve this without the use of vertical takeoff?
    Maybe yes. You just need to create aircraft with a very light glider and small take-off weight, capable of taking off from unprepared sites: from an ordinary highway, from unpaved field airfields. In principle, this is possible with the use of modern composite materials.
    1. -1
      25 November 2021 16: 49
      ... from unpaved field airfields ...

      - Such an aircraft can land on a dirt airfield - but only once ... lol Then you need to call a very large helicopter and take it away to replace the engine ... Only from asphalt-concrete highways ...
  46. 0
    25 November 2021 16: 45
    The R79V-300 engine for the Yak-141 VTOL aircraft - the collapse of the USSR allowed the United States to save tens of millions of dollars and years of work on the development of an engine for VTOL aircraft ...

    - This is a stupid fable, repeated for many years in a row - the Americans really bought a license for the kinematics of the rotary nozzle in Russia - for some completely ridiculous money (including "rollback" and "skid"), but everything else on the F135 has nothing to do with Russia:
    http://airwar.ru/enc/engines/f135.html
  47. -1
    25 November 2021 17: 13
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Quote: Niko
    And what about helicopters? Are they not inferior in terms of the same indicators? As with some others?

    Convertiplanes are more complex in design, and less reliable, since there are more nodes. If the tiltrotor were so more profitable than the helicopter, then the whole world would have switched to tiltroplanes long ago. Or do you consider yourself smarter than customers and designers?

    - A tiltrotor is more "profitable" than a helicopter for those who have it. Since its combat radius is three times that of a helicopter.

  48. 0
    14 December 2021 18: 27
    Even without reading the material, I will say right away - airplanes with GDP must ADD .. and NOT REPLACE. So .. my opinion ... they should complement .. but not replace.
  49. 0
    21 January 2022 13: 35
    So I "walk in circles" around this article and I'm perplexed ... I tried several times to enter into a discussion and quit. As for the bewilderment, why I offer such very expensive and costly solutions, being pissed off by super-advanced motor solutions, what a wonder! It seems that there is a competitive struggle - who will make the most expensive vertical take-off aircraft.
    Let's break the BB problem into steps:
    1.Rocket takeoff
    2. Aircraft maneuvering
    3. Helicopter landing



    Pay attention to the highlighted fragment. A simple and very economical solution does not occur to you that allows you to fulfill all three points of the BB aircraft.
    Let me explain - if you make the marked fragment turn 90 degrees, then the whole physiology of the explosive aircraft changes radically, you don’t need additional equipment for explosives, you can abandon the landing gear - as unnecessary (sits down by helicopter using tilt-changing jet nozzles, on folding panels , which during the flight serve as additional protection for the lower hemisphere of the explosive apparatus)
    Regarding the propulsion and weapons block: - when landing, the block must move - shift back, turn 90 degrees (nozzles down), move forward and up (until the center-mass stabilizes. The wings are also folded. (Take off is done in the reverse order)
    You can go even further: - make DOB removable... The explosive device sits on a specially equipped carrier, a hatch opens under the device, the block receiver extends, the block is captured and moved to the servicing sector. And at the same time, the serviced, refueled and armed new DOB is put in its original place, electronic testing takes place and the device is ready for takeoff.
    1. 0
      5 February 2022 11: 47
      I think that for a person who uses his brains not only to get drunk on adrenaline, it is clear that any ships of the sea zone (dry cargo ships, timber carriers, etc.) can act as carriers of such devices, that is, the carriers are created and function, which is a big plus to the creation of such ABB.