With and without a hood: a relapse of the Russian car industry

131

KamAZ of Lieutenant Colonel Alexei Schneider, blown up in Syria. Source: atas.info

The machine is not for war


In dry reports of the Ministry of Defense, the tragedy in Homs is described as follows:

"On September 9, in the province of Homs, the Syrian Arab Republic, during a reconnaissance by the Russian military police of the route of a humanitarian convoy, an explosive device installed on the side of the road was detonated."

As a result, Lieutenant Colonel Alexei Schneider died. The very first photographs clearly show that the explosion occurred under the front right wheel of KamAZ, and if the officer was sitting in the passenger's seat, then he had no chance to escape. The explosion tore the cabin and ripped out the wheel and part of the suspension.



If we speak in official language, there is no “living space” in the cockpit. By the nature of the damage, it can be assumed that a device equivalent to an anti-tank mine exploded under KamAZ. Similar tests were carried out in Kubinka during the first Chechen campaign. By the way, in "Ural" the dummy got off with ankle injuries.


Source: vk.com

It should be noted that the military police used an armored modification of the KAMAZ-5350-379 truck.

An armored capsule MM-501 is installed in the back of the car to protect personnel from small arms weapons according to the 5th class of protection. The armored truck has been used for quite some time in hot spots, including in Syria. The developer and manufacturer is the Nizhny Novgorod company Asteys, which produces, in particular, the Patrol armored vehicles for the needs of the Russian Guard. By the way, the National Guardsmen are entitled to a bonnet modification of KamAZ.






Source: vk.com

The key disadvantage of the KamAZ that hit a land mine in Syria was the cabover layout.

In fact, no changes were made to the KAMAZ cabin to increase explosion resistance. This is largely due to the design of the cabin itself - it cannot be turned into an MRAP cabin without a radical redesign.

In fact, engineers will have to take a whole range of measures - build a U-shaped armored bottom, raise the driver's and passenger's seats a few tens of centimeters up, and weld the seats themselves through shock absorbers to the ceiling. Naturally, no one will dare to make such changes, it is easier to create the car from scratch.

For example, how it is implemented on "Remdiesel-63968" Typhoon-K ". But this is a car of a completely different class, purpose and cost. By and large, such a reformatting of KamAZ is not necessary - just do not let the cars go to the front line.

Cabover-less vehicles have nothing to do in modern hotspots with high IED saturation. Moreover, the army has trucks that were originally adapted for mine warfare on the roads.


According to media reports, Tornado-U is already in Syria. But, apparently, there are not enough cars. Source: ianed.ru

This is the Ural-4320 bonnet family and, first of all, the Ural-63706-0011 or Tornado-U variant with a high armored cabin.

The Ural vehicles, as you know, from the very beginning were designed exclusively for military needs. In the early 50s, NAMI prepared a draft design of the car, which for many years became a real standard for military off-road vehicles. A powerful gasoline engine (albeit gluttonous), optimal weight distribution along the axles, centralized pumping of wheels and axle housings in one line, reducing resistance in the rut. The bonnet layout also added important bonuses - ease of maintenance and increased resistance to mines.

We are talking about the notorious "one and a half meters" of life.


Why didn't such a car go in the convoy on September 9 instead of KamAZ? In the photo - "Ural Federal-42590". Photo: Vitaly Kuzmin. www.vitalykuzmin.net

Most likely, in the post-war years, no one really thought about a possible confrontation with the enemy's AFU. The methods of warfare were very different, and engineers were more concerned with anti-nuclear protection than with TNT under the wheels. The traditional bonnet layout was then much easier to manufacture.

Another advantage of "Ural" and others like him was resistance to frontal shelling. With a successful combination of circumstances, the driver and passengers can take cover behind the engine compartment of the truck - not every bullet is able to overcome it.

Miass or Naberezhnye Chelny?


The military modification of KamAZ was born in completely different conditions.

In Naberezhnye Chelny, a plant was being built, originally intended for civil trucks, which were simultaneously developed at the Moscow ZIL. In fact, the model under the name ZIL-170 was supposed to replace the old man ZIL-130, but all the documentation was transferred to the new mega-plant. In many ways, this was the reason for the further collapse of the Moscow enterprise, once the most advanced in the country.

However, the capital simply did not have such areas for large-scale production of trucks. And in Naberezhnye Chelny, a full-cycle plant was created, not without the help of American companies, which produces cars practically without third-party contractors. KamAZ has become a real plant of strategic importance, which was so loved in the Soviet Union.

And for a reason they loved, I must say.

Even during the Great Patriotic War, factories with a large number of subcontractors did not cope with the production of defense products in the best way. Either here the supplier fails, or elsewhere a deficit is formed.

A similar situation, for example, happened at the Krasnoe Sormovo tank plant, which for some time generally produced T-34s with gasoline engines due to shortages of V-2s. And on the Chelyabinsk Tractor, for example, this was not observed - all manufacturers concentrated in the local "Tankograd" ...

So for the domestic automotive industry, KamAZ has become a kind of "Tankograd". And it is quite understandable that the KamAZ-4310 army truck, which appeared soon after the civilian 5320, turned out to be very convenient.

High unification with peaceful products made the car economically profitable, and this made it possible to relatively quickly saturate the army with modern trucks. The Miass plant in this stories acted as a complete antipode.

Most of the time "Urals" entered the army exclusively, and the capacity of the enterprise was often not enough to meet the needs of the military. Miass did not have its own motor production, a considerable part of the components came from other enterprises. As soon as Ural was switched to diesel, it generally became dependent on a competitor from Naberezhnye Chelny.

By the way, in the late 70s there was an attempt to build a new cabin for the Ural within the framework of the Land project. As a basis, the factory workers took a KAMAZ analogue and docked their own engine compartment. But no one was eager to share the cabin with competitors, and "Land" remained a small-scale technique.


A similar blowing up of the Azerbaijani KamAZ in Nagorno-Karabakh. Source: vk.com

Kamaz vehicles are certainly needed by the Russian army. But the practice of using it almost on the front line of defense often ends in tragedies similar to those on September 9 in Syria. In addition, there is a reluctance of the factory workers to rework the design of a 45-year-old truck. The bonnet variants of KamAZs are being developed so far only by the previously mentioned company "Asteyz", but most of the equipment goes to the Russian Guard. At the last forum "Army-2021" from Naberezhnye Chelny, they again brought a new variation of the "Mustang-M" from Remdiesel ("combat" division of KamAZ) with an armored cabin.

The developers do not cover the mine action properties of the vehicle.


An example is the blowing up of the Ukrainian "Ural" with an anti-tank mine. Differences from the KAMAZ picture are noticeable. Source: twing.com

However, both KamAZ and Urals are just military equipment, which will not lead itself to mines. Questions arise about the organization of the very "reconnaissance" during which the officer died.

Why was KamAZ, weakly protected from IEDs, in the convoy?

Surely the number of vehicles included heavy Typhoons and armored personnel carriers, but, as you know, the combat effectiveness of a unit is determined by the weakest link. This turned out to be the KamAZ of Lieutenant Colonel Alexei Schneider.
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  1. -11
    15 September 2021 18: 10
    It's all about the money ........ and kickbacks hi
    1. +4
      15 September 2021 18: 18
      Quite sick, what kind of money and kickbacks in Syria ??? fool
      1. +25
        15 September 2021 18: 19
        In the production of bonnet and bonnet ... Who pushed ... that has the money ...
        1. +31
          15 September 2021 18: 21
          In production, different machines are needed, but their use should not be entrusted to rams.
          1. +2
            15 September 2021 18: 24
            In production Yes ... but in the army there should be those who can save the one who moves on them ... And on the front line ... and in the rear ...
            1. +38
              15 September 2021 23: 58
              Exactly!
              It is impossible in a war to separate the trucks of the first line, trucks and rear ..
              Who will let you!
              Run out, for example, shells, and what, I'm not lucky, no hood !?
              And the rest of the trucks are gone, they knocked out ...
              Everyone should be protected whenever possible, what is the question of money?
              There is life behind every "hood"!
              Life, quite possibly, of an "expensive" professional!
              Well, if it's really cynical, at least!
            2. -3
              17 September 2021 11: 23
              Quote: SaLaR
              In production Yes ... but in the army there should be those who can save the one who moves on them ... And on the front line ... and in the rear ...

              It's all about the money ........ and kickbacks

              And what does kickbacks have to do with it? If only to pour in your portion of lamentations on the topic, everything is gone! stole everything!
        2. +22
          15 September 2021 19: 06
          Quote: SaLaR
          In the production of bonnet and bonnet ... Who pushed ... that has the money ...

          This is not the case, because the question of the priority of KAMAZ or Uralov arose even before the collapse of the USSR, because even then, according to GABTU specialists, it was impossible to transfer vehicle military equipment to a cabover scheme, but mainly to use it in those parts that are involved in providing. I don’t remember all the subtleties, and I know this question indirectly, but experienced military motorists were not enthusiastic about the KAMAZ trucks themselves, at least from the point of view of maintainability in the field. The decisive factor, as I understand it, was the mass production of KAMAZ trucks and diesel fuel, so the question is in the economy, and not in the fact that someone lobbied for the interests of Naberezhnye Chelny.
          1. -11
            15 September 2021 19: 09
            And now who interferes with the production of bonnets ... there is no USSR ... NOBODY KAMAZ lobbies ...
            1. +21
              15 September 2021 19: 33
              "Come on ?!" (C)
              Nobody lobbies?
              Lobbying opportunities and others are incommensurable for KamAZ and UralAZ.
              As much as the KAMAZ can roll back, the Uralaz did not even see.
              1. +1
                15 September 2021 19: 36
                Surely NO ... fear God ... NO CORRUPTION bully
            2. +8
              17 September 2021 09: 29
              First, you will drive kilometers ... on mountain serpentines in the bonnet and in the bonnet, and then you will express your expert opinion. When tight and tight turns. Ros 56 wrote everything correctly - different machines are needed.
            3. 0
              21 September 2021 13: 10
              recently KAMAZ from the budget of 1 billion rubles was adjusted, the news of August 26, 21 and we have it for a minute Avtoinvest Limited 23,54%, Daimler AG 15%, Other legal entities and individuals-11,56%, total 50,1% belongs to someone who is unclear !!!! to foreigners, my taxes are sent to foreigners !!!!!!
      2. 0
        17 September 2021 11: 13
        The kickbacks are not in Syria, but in Russia. Throwing the module into the back, they left the soldier and the accompanying person with a bare bottom.
      3. -1
        17 September 2021 12: 31
        Kickbacks to the plant and all intermediate gaskets along the customer-manufacturer line
    2. +17
      15 September 2021 19: 15
      It's all about the money ........ and kickbacks

      They just saved and supplied Kamaz, which is armored from small arms. And the bottom of the cabin, as it was not armored, remained. In general, these swing-out cabs of cabover trucks are quite difficult to armour, compared to a fixed bonnet cab.
      The meaning of a cabover cab is in the greater useful volume that a truck has for a given vehicle length. In the military sphere, this quality is not as fundamental as in the civil one. For example, for Pantsir, it is essential to have a cabover cab because of the limited platform, for transporting soldiers, the maximum capacity is not important, security is more important here, so the hood version is more expedient.
      If we draw an analogy with tanks, where the three most important characteristics of a tank - weapons, armor, mobility, can be represented by the sides of a triangle, and a tank can be characterized by their length - ideally, the triangle should be equilateral, without protruding any one vertex, i.e. armament, armor, mobility must be balanced, as for example in the T-34-85.
      For a military truck, these 3 sides will be safety, cost, weight / volume of the transported cargo. Obviously, for Kamaz, the main skew of one vertex of the triangle will be at a very low cost, to the detriment of safety.
      1. 0
        17 September 2021 22: 03
        As far as I understand, the cabover has better cross-country ability in hilly terrain. She will drive up the hill where the other will scratch the ground with her nose.
    3. +7
      16 September 2021 07: 27
      Quote: SaLaR
      It's all about the money ........ and kickbacks

      Yes, yes ... of course, Navalny is not on them ...
      And nothing else comes to mind? The GAZ group knows how to "roll back" no worse, but nevertheless, it could not "fill up" the troops with the Urals. Maybe the fact is that the production capabilities of these companies for the production of such machines are different. And in the army it was necessary to urgently change the existing vehicle fleet. Gasoline cars were replaced by diesels and all this in five years
      A similar situation, for example, happened at the Krasnoe Sormovo tank plant, which for some time generally produced T-34s with gasoline engines due to shortages of V-2s. And on the Chelyabinsk Tractor, for example, this was not observed - all manufacturers concentrated in the local "Tankograd" ...
      Not the best example ... While the production of the required number of V-2 engines was being adjusted, "Tankograd" was completely producing KV tanks with M-17 gasoline engines.
    4. +8
      16 September 2021 09: 39
      It is high time to transport people to the MRAP ... they were invented for this ... They are both Kamaz and Ural and in different layouts. And in Syria, we see Tigers and, at most, trucks with armored cabins of the old model ... no need ...
    5. +1
      18 September 2021 14: 58
      That's right! Where there is money, there are kickbacks! hi
  2. +30
    15 September 2021 18: 11
    Why was KamAZ, weakly protected from IEDs, in the convoy?


    The Americans have recently been actively improvising. As a result, very often, despite the minesweepers, the mixed composition of the convoy, they undermined the most unprotected target (which Humvee or an army truck). They decided only to completely transfer the columns to explosion-proof equipment, but what was impossible was carried out with full-fledged engineering reconnaissance and additional support (when the route was worked out by the UAV 24/7 for several days).

    Also, the active use of explosion-proof technology forced the broads to significantly increase the volume of bookmarks. And this is not only fewer landmines with a finite amount of substance, but also a multiple times greater chance of falling asleep at the stage of packing-extending-bookmarking.
    1. +1
      18 September 2021 12: 37
      No armor will help if the bookmark is large. I remember even in the Iraqi rollers 4-5 tons in full ammunition Humvees were blown up at the tab. Yes, so that it threw a meter or two.
  3. +33
    15 September 2021 18: 15
    Well, yes, KamAZ and GAZ-66 - cabover, Urals, ZIL-131 - bonnet. Back in the Afghan war, it became clear that KamAZ trucks are more vulnerable to mines - how many guys have lost their legs. Apparently, both are needed in the army, they just need to be used in different situations. Hence, the command flaw.
    1. +6
      15 September 2021 18: 20
      Well yes

      In a local conflict, mine-protected cars are needed, here the absence / presence of a hood is indispensable, in a high-intensity conflict no one will bother, lay IEDs manually, they will rather mine remotely with anti-bottom mines with a magnetic target sensor.
    2. 0
      15 September 2021 18: 41
      Right, it's like digging potatoes in your shoes.
      1. -5
        16 September 2021 01: 15
        ZIL 157 ... the perfect car.
    3. +5
      16 September 2021 11: 51
      Back in the Afghan war, it became clear that KamAZ trucks are more vulnerable to mines - how many guys have lost their legs.

      They were blown up tightly ... And on the GAZ-66 the same story. And in the Urals and ZiLakh they could get off with a shell shock.
  4. +25
    15 September 2021 18: 19
    But the practice of using it is almost at the forefront of the defense

    And in Syria, wherever you spit - everywhere is the front line of defense .. Civilian and semi-civilian vehicles should not be allowed into such places. Including similar KAMAZ trucks ..
    1. -2
      16 September 2021 00: 01
      Plus 3 times ..
  5. -5
    15 September 2021 18: 26
    If the armored cockpit was so turned around, then I'm afraid the Ural would be in the same condition.
  6. -6
    15 September 2021 18: 33
    Another custom-made article aimed at shuffling the brains, in the article itself it is written
    The key disadvantage of KamAZ, which hit a land mine in Syria, was the cabover layout.

    and above, before that, the author himself wrote
    It should be noted that the military police used an armored modification of the KAMAZ-5350-379 truck.

    What's the catch? And the catch is that the author litters the minds of the reader by making the concepts of "armored truck" and "MRAP-truck" identical, but these are different concepts, and different cars.

    In general, the only better kopotniki (with a single full common denominator) is that they have "the lower limit of the lethal speed of movement is higher", but all this is garbage, since it depends on a million factors, read on luck, and this luck is easily countered or a little more canopy of explosives, or placement of 2 \ 3 \ N SVU around detonation sensor or IED displacement relative to the detonation sensor, so that the IED was under the car at the time of detonation, or, like most IEDs, due to manual control of the detonation.
    1. +10
      15 September 2021 18: 39
      What's the catch? And the catch is that the author litters the minds of the reader by making the concepts "armored truck" and "MRAP-truck" identical, but these are different concepts, and different cars.

      Can you specify more precisely where I identify MRAP and KamAZ with an armored cabin?
      but all this is bullshit, because it depends on a million factors, read on luck,

      With this approach, you can walk on foot, since it all depends on luck.
      1. +2
        15 September 2021 21: 47
        However, in Sergey's comment, there is a common grain:
        Quote: Evgeny Fedorov
        displacement of the IED relative to the detonation sensor, so that the IED was under the car at the time of detonation

        hi
      2. +4
        15 September 2021 21: 51
        Cabotniks are more economically profitable, yes, but I personally say that let the army trucks be gluttonous, more difficult to operate, but the main thing is that they save lives, because it is people who have now become the main strategic resource. And yes, only bonnets should work on lines 1-2.
        1. +1
          15 September 2021 22: 10
          The cabover layout of KAMAZ vehicles is associated with compliance with European standards for the length of the road train and nothing more.
          1. +6
            15 September 2021 22: 30
            Sheer bullshit. Military technology is beyond this.
            Or, in your opinion, are Russian tanks designed to meet the requirements of the European Union?
            And yes, military and civilian versions of trucks are two big differences.
        2. 0
          16 September 2021 09: 39
          They are more profitable for civilian purposes ..... the military do not care
      3. +1
        16 September 2021 00: 16
        Quote: Yevgeny Fedorov
        What's the catch? And the catch is that the author litters the minds of the reader by making the concepts "armored truck" and "MRAP-truck" identical, but these are different concepts, and different cars.

        Can you specify more precisely where I identify MRAP and KamAZ with an armored cabin?

        The counter request can be more precise where I wrote about the armored cabin? I wrote not about cabins, but about types of equipment, in particular "type of equipment bullet proof" And "type of equipment protected from bullets and mines", and to the first type of technology you impute the claim that it is not protected from mines. And later, you, like many before you, start verbiage on the topic of" saving hood scheme ", to which I gave examples of where, how and why it (hood ) does not save from mines / IEDs.
  7. +13
    15 September 2021 18: 39
    American IRD in Afghanistan - "Husky" with a ground penetrating radar, followed by an MRAP with a track mine sweep, then a Buffalo with a manipulator boom for splitting and extracting IEDs, and a sapper robot, followed by a MRAP with infantry for fire cover, closes the mini- column wheeled tractor for the evacuation of damaged equipment.
  8. +8
    15 September 2021 18: 47
    Quote: Ros 56
    In production, different machines are needed, but their use should not be entrusted to rams.


    And it is better to stop the "release" of rams altogether.
    Anecdote - at the food institute, the teacher asks the student to explain
    sausage production technology
    ...... - Well ........ there is a machine ..... on one side .... insert a ram .......
    ....... and on the other hand they take out a stick ..... sausages ...
    - Um ... and how old are you? - 17.
    - So, young man, 18 years ago, apparently it turned out the other way around-
    first put in a stick, and then took out the ram!
  9. +10
    15 September 2021 18: 47
    If they want to blow it up, they will blow it up - even bonnet, even bonnet. A second fuse delay is a breeze. There are many more ways to solve this problem ... but let's not talk about it (I wonder, is the subscription given in the USSR valid in our time?). The fact is that the main task of an anti-tank mine as such is to disable equipment, the rest is secondary.
    1. -9
      15 September 2021 18: 55
      Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
      The fact is that the main task of an anti-tank mine as such is to disable equipment, the rest is secondary.

      You probably served as a corporal in the army?
      1. +8
        15 September 2021 18: 56
        Private, clean shoulder straps - a clear conscience.
        1. -5
          15 September 2021 19: 03
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          Private, clean shoulder straps - a clear conscience.

          Good too. And for others it is not as dangerous as in command positions. Still, an anti-tank mine can have a slightly wider range of tasks.
          1. +7
            15 September 2021 19: 29
            Are you a military man by training? Judging by your categorical nature - yes. :) About a wider circle ... I can make a lot of things out of cc, I can make cc out of things. I have a Soviet education - you must admit this is an advantage. You, if you are a military man can apply, I can create and apply. Want to make moonshine from ammonite? :)
            1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Alf
      +36
      15 September 2021 19: 02
      Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
      is the subscription given in the USSR valid in our time?)

      If the state of the USSR should have been to you, then no.
      And if you owe the state, yes. laughing
      1. +17
        15 September 2021 19: 29
        I owe the USSR for life.
        1. Alf
          +21
          15 September 2021 19: 43
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          I owe the USSR for life.

          Likewise. This, as some call it, "the prison of peoples" gave me an all-quiet childhood, education, profession, life guidelines.
    3. +1
      15 September 2021 19: 31
      interesting, and the subscription given in the USSR is valid in our time?

      It depends on what they signed. If it was signed with blood, then it acts exactly, but if it was signed with plain ink, then it is necessary to find out.
      1. +7
        15 September 2021 19: 59
        With a fountain pen, where can I get so much blood? .. Explosives, topographic maps, objective control, reserves (geology) - subscriptions are everywhere, but after the topographic maps for some reason they did not check - he just waved a piece of paper.
        1. +7
          15 September 2021 20: 11
          During the Soviet era, these subscriptions and secrecy reached the level of insanity. The first department painted over half of the report on industrial practice with ink. The report was copied from the publicly available book "Fundamentals of Metallurgy", but the old man from the first department did not even want to listen to me, showing the instructions according to which half of what I copied from the book was "secret".
          1. +4
            15 September 2021 20: 27
            Of course there were excesses in the USSR, but where are they not? At the expense of metallurgy, I do not really ... I do not know, although in my opinion I saw such a book, maybe even looked through it ... rather - yes. Only now I am beginning to remember that alloys for drill rods, carbide bits, etc. were used for drilling and blasting technology. Maybe then? Not sure.
            But I had everything according to the rules - this is understandable - by itself, topographic maps are maps on which everything is marked, objective control is a black box, photo reconnaissance and much more (also by itself), well, stocks - you will not find data anywhere on the reserves of mineral resources in the days of the USSR - something was chipboard, something generally secret.
            1. +9
              15 September 2021 20: 31
              Yeah, only all this "DSP" and "secret" was secret only in the USSR. In the film library of the district headquarters, we took American and German documentaries about Soviet military equipment. And we had all the documentation on it was "secret".
              1. +3
                15 September 2021 20: 47
                I don’t know ... mine is better ... than nedobz ... What will happen if I start dumping everything that I was taught right here? Will they be imprisoned or declared a terrorist and again imprisoned? And if I start dumping on the site of the US cat lovers? I think they will block me and put me on any list ... although I don't mind, it's even honorable :)
                1. +1
                  15 September 2021 21: 03
                  What happens if I start dumping everything I was taught right here?

                  In general, nothing will happen to anyone. No one will even pay attention. Because all your knowledge is not secret for a long time.
                  But if you need to feel like a keeper of secrets to maintain a PMC, for God's sake.
                  1. +6
                    15 September 2021 21: 13
                    I'm even glad. Probably everything is outdated. But out of caution I will not count on centuries ... Although ... you can't even imagine how simple it is (no saltpeter, as many think) - diesel fuel with sawdust, plus ... let everyone think out, but normal schoolchildren should guess or know. :) Subscriptions were for 15 years, 30 years have passed.
                    1. +4
                      15 September 2021 21: 19
                      All this can be found freely on the Internet today. There is even an article on Wikipedia according to ASDT.
                      1. +3
                        15 September 2021 21: 30
                        I said no saltpeter. Do you know what is the advantage of the Soviet education system? In the fundamental basics - you are given knowledge from the very beginning to the latest developments, and if you are interested, you can conduct research on your own ideas. I did research on microhardness - it was not confirmed, but this is also a result. :)
                      2. +4
                        15 September 2021 21: 35
                        This I gave as an example that the network is free. http://chemistry-chemists.com/N2_2013/ChemistryAndChemists_2_2013-P15-1.html
                      3. +2
                        15 September 2021 21: 39
                        Where are you from? The resource is locked. I don't want to put another browser right now - what's the fuss? So where are you from?
                      4. +5
                        15 September 2021 22: 30
                        What do you mean from where? I am not Mephistopheles, not "from there." You can sprinkle the screen with holy water for testing.
                      5. -3
                        16 September 2021 05: 37
                        What does Mephistopheles have to do with it? A direct question is a direct answer. What did they say? You know ... and you jump, and I'll see - what if you succeed professionally ... Then the question will disappear by itself.
                        Mephistopheles ... it’s necessary ... you’ve just swung it ... megalomania?
                      6. +2
                        16 September 2021 06: 39
                        Up to a certain point, you gave the impression of an almost normal person. But not for long.
                        All the best.
                      7. +1
                        16 September 2021 08: 21
                        Quote: Undecim
                        Up to a certain point, you gave the impression of an almost normal person.

                        Now the balabols in the network have a new "excuse". The state tightened the screws a little and they, under this case, began to cover up all their ignorance of the topic with secrecy. Like they are specialists of the 80th lvl, but they cannot tell the details because they are afraid that they will be imprisoned. Very convenient for balabols and scammers. A fraudster parasitizing on a topic does not understand much otherwise he would work on the topic and not cheat.
                        Here you are one balabol and saw through now.
                        Only my opinion is not about his emergency, this is a kremlebot, he is trying to cover up the failure in Syria
                      8. +2
                        16 September 2021 11: 11
                        Determination of normality please, if it does not bother you. Those. do you consider yourself normal, and everyone who does not fit your category is abnormal? Hmm ... Better be Mephistopheles. :)
                        And you all the best.
                    2. +3
                      16 September 2021 00: 17
                      I'm even glad. Probably everything is outdated. But out of caution I will not


                      And rightly so ... better shut up. Believe me - sometimes it is more important for the enemy to know with whom the wife of the political officer once slept twenty years ago than the performance characteristics of missiles and planes. Everything that is written about the "dominance of secretaries" in the USSR is nonsense. It was a very well-organized structure. She didn’t interfere with real work, and she curbed idle curiosity.
                      1. +1
                        16 September 2021 14: 36
                        nonsense. It was a very well-organized structure.

                        Well, tell us, what is the "literacy" of classifying information that is ALREADY in the public domain in the countries of the NATO military bloc and in China?
                        "Theoretically-potential opponents" ALREADY know this information in this case.
                        That is, "to protect secrets from a potential enemy" in such cases, secrecy is already powerless. But to break forever their own lives, through negligence, "divulged secret information" ... taken from open sources and not having the slightest idea that there is some kind of secrecy, such an approach, alas, very much even possible.
              2. +2
                16 September 2021 14: 16
                Quote: Undecim
                Yeah, but all this "DSP" and "secret" was secret only in the USSR. In the film library of the district headquarters, we took American and German documentaries about Soviet military equipment.

                He-he-he ... You will also remember how Western reference books on military equipment were typed in our country - precisely because of the presence in them of information about the equipment of the USSR and the Department of Internal Affairs.
                That is why we put chipboard on the "Jane", which is generally available in the West? What secret information about Soviet technology could an enemy spy learn from him? smile
                1. +1
                  16 September 2021 17: 40
                  Often "DSP" and "Secret" were set so that it would not be banal to be stolen.
                  1. 0
                    16 September 2021 17: 44
                    Quote: lomax77
                    Often "DSP" and "Secret" were set so that it would not be banal to be stolen.

                    There used to be another reason - "so that they would not be allowed to use cigarettes". smile
                    On the other hand, there was more confidence in "secret" data:
                    PROSKUR. It is no secret to everyone that if it says "secret" on paper, then they will read it, and if it is a simple edition, then they say it is nonsense. (Laughter). I am convinced that this is how big bosses feel about it.
                    © Meeting at the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (b) of the commanding staff on the collection of experience in hostilities against Finland.
      2. -1
        17 September 2021 16: 50
        A subscription in the army is called an oath. All over the world, normal people say: "The oath is taken once in a lifetime." And what they signed, again.
    4. +5
      16 September 2021 06: 14
      Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
      If they want to blow it up, they will blow it up - even bonnet, even bonnet.

      It is much more difficult to protect the crew of a cabover vehicle in "mine action" design, both technologically and, as a consequence, economically.
      KAMAZ "Taifun", a representative of the plant with the Nearest Chelnov in 2011 (KamAZ-63968 or "Typhoon-K")

      Ural-63099 "Typhoon-U"
      - The first prototype machines began to be tested in early summer 2011 at the Bronnitsy training ground. Then, in Bronnitsy, it was announced that the Typhoon is a promising family of highly protected armored vehicles. The contractors are the aforementioned KAMAZ and the Ural automobile plant, the project completion date is 2014.


      Typhoon-U (Ural -6309) - Cost: 38 млн rubles.
      Typhoon-K (KamAZ-63968) Cost: 48 млн rubles
      Cost in 2014 prices crying
      1. +6
        16 September 2021 09: 42
        It's just that these cars should go in Syria, and not in the Taman division at the parade. Instead of BTR-82 and armored Kamaz and Uralov. Even on imported units, if there are none. They are not massively needed there.
      2. +2
        16 September 2021 15: 58
        for 14 years, both typhoons that Kamaz and the Urals had 2 versions - with protection from 14.5 and 8 kg of TNT and with protection from 7.62 and 6 kg of TNT. What versions do you quote?
        1. +1
          16 September 2021 17: 26
          Quote: Katanikotael
          What versions do you quote?

          If memory serves, the reduced armor resistance (for the sake of weight reduction and cost reduction) was made on one of the Typhoon-K models.

          Modular armored car Ural-63095 "Typhoon"
          Bonnet multifunctional modular car. Inhabited ward divided into a three-seater cabin and a non-communicating passenger module... It can carry up to 16 people in full gear in the module. The landing is dismounted through the door.
          One-volume car Ural-63099 "Typhoon"
          Bonneted multifunctional single-volume vehicle for transporting personnel. Has a single inhabited compartment... In addition to three seats in the cockpit, it can carry up to 12 people. The landing is dismounted through the door.
          Ural-63095U Protection class: all-aspect from 14,5-mm armor-piercing bullets, up to 8 kg of explosives under the bottom
          We can also name the price without revealing state secrets: according to official information posted last year on the Rosoboronexport website, 30 Typhoons-U - the same as in our photographs, three-axle - will cost the state 1 billion 74 million rubles. That is, the price of one car is 35 million 800 thousand rubles, or 730 thousand euros.
          And this is completely comparable with foreign models: American MRAPs of category II (with a 6x6 wheel arrangement) cost about a million dollars each, which is the same 730 thousand euros. By the way, according to unofficial information that we have already published, KAMAZ trucks are more expensive - about a million euros ...
          ( Trucks and Buses | AR No. 10 2014)
          according to the site rosoboronpostavka.rf, 30 units of this equipment should have been produced, the total cost of the batch will be 1 billion 74 million rubles.
          (topwar October 2, 2013)
          1. +1
            16 September 2021 18: 54
            It is planned that the Typhoon-U will be protected according to GOST class 6a, which implies resistance to the 32 mm B-7,62 armor-piercing bullet fired point-blank from an SVD sniper rifle.
            https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2047906
            1. +1
              16 September 2021 19: 28
              Can't you figure it out ... crying
              Armor KAMAZ-63968 Typhoon-K
              - Combined ceramic and steel armor that protects against 14,5 × 114 mm armor-piercing bullets... Including bulletproof glass with a thickness of 128,5-129,0 mm


              KAMAZ-63968 equipped with XNUMXrd degree armor according to NATO standard, it provides protection against armor-piercing inflammable rifle cartridges of 7.62 caliber... In addition, the armored Typhoon protects the landing force from the fragments of cannon shots.
              KamAZ Typhoon is equipped with a wedge-shaped anti-mine chassis, which serves to divert the blast wave from the crew accommodation area. During recent tests, the truck was tested by an explosion of 6 kg of TNT under the wheels and under the bottom of the armored hull. In each of the experiments, the Typhoon received damage, but did not let the explosives harm the "soldiers". The dummies sitting in the cockpit, despite the cabover structure, were not damaged.


              Both quotes and photos are taken from the Spetsmash website (foksevmash.ru), article: Typhoon-U - an army truck for the Russian army
  10. +12
    15 September 2021 19: 15
    Yes, the column must be composed correctly. And follow the regulations and instructions for wiring columns. And not to be sad about the bonnet / cabover technology.
    1. +1
      17 September 2021 16: 57
      By the way, the blown up KAMAZ was not walking along the road, that is, it was NOT in the convoy. This is clearly seen in all the photos.
  11. +4
    15 September 2021 19: 47
    It is interesting that behind the KamAZ cab in the photo we can clearly distinguish an electronic warfare system for suppressing radio control channels for detonating mine explosive devices.
  12. +4
    15 September 2021 20: 00
    The Kamaz mine protection was weak, or the wrong truck was driving ..
    With or without a hood, trucks will always be blown up by mines.
  13. 0
    15 September 2021 20: 07
    But this is a car of a completely different class, purpose and cost.
    Don't value your life.
  14. +8
    15 September 2021 20: 28
    All the time the discussion revolves around bonnet / bonnet. What's the difference! The fuses are set up differently, half a second of the difference and the Urals will explode under the cockpit. Even if it is under the wheel, severed legs are also little consolation.

    It is necessary to clearly distinguish whether the vehicle has mine protection or not. And again, not every car will have such protection, which means that it is also necessary to clearly understand in which areas it is permissible to use cars with minimal protection, and where only hardcore, everything to the maximum.
  15. 0
    15 September 2021 20: 54
    Bonnet, hoodless ... Thrall is needed for vehicles, then you can use hoodless.
  16. +3
    15 September 2021 21: 00
    The very practice of using trucks on chassis from the national economy in the army is vicious. The truck must be special, military. An example of a good design suitable for military purposes is the ZIL-4972, and the chassis of the French reconnaissance armored car EBRC "Jaguar" is made according to a similar scheme. Such a three-axle design gives passability no worse than that of a four-axle armored personnel carrier. Such a scheme, of course, will be one and a half times more expensive than a conventional truck, but it has undeniable advantages as a platform for military purposes.
    1. +3
      15 September 2021 21: 38
      ZIL 4972 with a crane.
      1. +1
        16 September 2021 09: 43
        Such and Kamaz have 6x6 under the order are produced for all sorts of the Ministry of Emergency Situations and oil workers.
        1. +1
          16 September 2021 09: 48
          What model? This ZIL also has a rear axle with steering.
          1. +3
            16 September 2021 09: 50
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI2JhXBcUS0


            Everything is the same for KAMAZ, but on its own bridges and wheels .... and Cummins diesel .... Kamaz shows a lot of interesting things, there are also 4x4 and 6x6 versions with fully independent suspension, they are lighter by a couple of tons ...
            1. +1
              16 September 2021 10: 00
              I looked at the photos on the KAMAZ-63968 Typhoon-K, steering is on the middle axis. Also a good solution. It's a shame that such triaxial schemes have not yet become widespread.
              1. +3
                16 September 2021 10: 02
                Typhoon -U is easier and everything is the same ... Could strain and put 20-30 pieces in the SAR ...
                1. 0
                  16 September 2021 11: 01
                  I watched the video with the KAMAZ all-terrain vehicle MPZ. Just what you need. But for the army, it would be nice to modify the cockpit in the direction of armoring and suspended performance.
                  1. +2
                    16 September 2021 11: 27
                    Plus or minus ----- Typhoon-K and it will turn out ..... there the axles, taking into account the weight of the reservation, were redistributed. And here is a simple Kamaz. If a Zil or Ural in the form of an MRAP is built with such a wheel arrangement, the same will turn out. Check out this video:
                    about the transition from BTR-152 to BTR-60:

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVmz6cB-_hQ

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br_ElkVNfp8


                    The motor was put back for a reason.
  17. 0
    15 September 2021 21: 05
    Very helpful article.
    Thank you.
  18. +2
    15 September 2021 21: 21
    The second and third photos in the article show that the car was moving along a knurled track on a dirt road. Judging by the result - no engineering intelligence. Around the flat steppe, cheaper, in this case, it would be to go in parallel or even directly, but you see the driving psychology let it down - since someone passed, then I will pass.
    1. +6
      15 September 2021 21: 35
      If mined correctly, then the track does not matter. But at the expense of engineering intelligence, I will support you - right. And as noted above - the correct compilation of the column.
      1. +1
        16 September 2021 09: 44
        There will always be mines and landmines ... in hot spots there should be equipment with modern protection ... and not something that in fact still traveled in Afghanistan.
  19. +1
    15 September 2021 21: 29
    Who can bring a little clarity at such a moment: the fourth photo clearly shows that the blown up KAMAZ stands at a decent distance from the road. Why did he leave her and for what purpose?
    1. 0
      15 September 2021 23: 12
      the second and third pictures show that this is a parallel branch of the road
  20. The comment was deleted.
    1. +7
      15 September 2021 22: 03
      The questions are not about death, but about the ruined life.
      Stalin said - "any problem has a full name."
      So people want to know who civil transport is, let
      and with thickened glass, let him go to war.
      And Kamaz (my opinion) as a civilian vehicle,
      and so it remained. Paint it green or camouflage.
  21. Kaw
    +2
    15 September 2021 22: 09
    By the way, in the late 70s there was an attempt to build a new cabin for the Ural within the framework of the Land project.

    Apparently in the Urals, they decided to complete this "Land" already in the post-Soviet period, only the cab was taken from the gazelle.
    1. Kaw
      +2
      15 September 2021 22: 09
      Land project
    2. +1
      16 September 2021 09: 45
      URAL initially sent 80% of orders to the Army ..... now it is trying to enter the civilian market.
  22. +4
    15 September 2021 23: 43
    An interesting but controversial article, which is obvious to everyone who is at least the slightest friend of logic.
    Bonnet, cabover .. but that’s not the point, because any truck is vulnerable to a mine, a land mine, an RPG or an air attack, it’s impossible to defend against everything !! But the author focuses precisely on explosions, more precisely on triggering under the front axle, forgetting about the rest of the facts, and here questions already arise.
    If the truck is structurally weak precisely in relation to such a detonation, but has a number of other advantages, for example, in production, maintenance, etc. That is, there is a reason to still use such a technique, no matter what. Mines and land mines are not common on the roads, senior officers do not often sit in truck cabs .. so it is still not clear what is really needed and what does not make sense to produce.
    1. +5
      16 September 2021 10: 05
      By and large, of course, you are right. But, if a scheme with a cab extended far forward like on Typhoon-K or vice versa, with a bonnet arrangement and a cab carried back, will help to reduce losses at blasting by at least a quarter, it makes sense to use just such trucks.
    2. +2
      16 September 2021 10: 50
      Anyone is vulnerable, yes. The question is HOW is vulnerable. The explosion of an IED right under the ass and the explosion of it a meter with a hook in front is a very big difference. And more often than not, the difference between life and death.
  23. 0
    15 September 2021 23: 48
    Well, so KAMAZ and Armor trucks carry ... Only a narrow wheelbase + high center of gravity can be the reason for rollover ...
    1. 0
      16 September 2021 09: 46
      Kamaz carries a lot of things .... you just need to separate: a platform truck -MRAP-armored personnel carrier .......
  24. -5
    16 September 2021 03: 33
    Almost all our equipment is only for parades and is not suitable for serious hostilities. What if our adversaries in Syria had serious air forces and armored vehicles?
    1. +3
      16 September 2021 08: 09
      The only plus of the cabover layout is the reduction in the total length of the car, such as more cars fit on the road in front of the traffic light, the rest is just minuses, so military and even more armored trucks should only be bonded.
      1. 0
        16 September 2021 10: 08
        Or as on Typhoon-K with a cockpit extended far ahead.
      2. +1
        16 September 2021 11: 01
        Far from being the only one. If you imagine a car device, you must figure it out. Other things being equal, cabover units are lighter and more economical. But they are worse suited in terms of security for service on the front lines.
  25. The comment was deleted.
  26. +4
    16 September 2021 12: 26
    KAMAZ has a strong lobby in the person of Kogogin (his wife is also a deputy of the State Duma). And also the leaders of Tatarstan have influence on the rulers of the Russian Federation. Both prime ministers and presidents come to the plant and perform in front of the collective.
  27. +2
    16 September 2021 12: 53
    sorry for the colonel. Rest in peace .
    those who allowed the use of bonnetless KAMAZ vehicles should be put behind the wheel of the head car and forward. everyone who served and understands what a mine is, they understand that Kamaz is extremely dangerous, the Ural is much safer.
  28. 0
    17 September 2021 06: 00
    The question of the bonnet is a complicated one ... It's like diesel and gasoline. Each machine has its own purpose, full versatility cannot be achieved. I watched Dakar where the KamAZ master explained the advantages of the bonnet layout, and that they have such a truck. But they performed again on cabover ones.
  29. 0
    17 September 2021 11: 11
    Unfortunately, the life of a military professional is not assessed in any way in comparison with the personal benefit of the persons concerned. while the country is full of corruption and irresponsibility, its sons will die defending the interests of this country, armed mediocre.
  30. 0
    17 September 2021 12: 25
    The combat effectiveness of a unit is determined by its weakest link. Neither take away nor add
  31. 0
    17 September 2021 19: 18
    Lieutenant colonel in the "Kamaz"? (!) This is the first time I hear it. Usually a senior warrant officer.
  32. Owl
    +2
    18 September 2021 10: 33
    My classmate died in 1993 after being blown up by a mine near the Tarskoye training center, was driving a GAZ-66, the driver lost his leg, and the officer died, the mine stood on the side of the road and drove off the road going around the pothole with the right side. The ball would be "kapotnik", most likely would have survived.
  33. 0
    18 September 2021 17: 03
    For those who read obliquely, it's not just about finding the wheel in front of or directly under the driver, which can really be canceled out by the retarder. (And even then - the speed can be different - can a radar be screwed to the retarder? And an IED is not always done by a specialist - it is often a primitive mechanical device from improvised means) The main problem of a cabover truck is the reclining cab, which does not allow full reservation of the bottom.
  34. ada
    0
    19 September 2021 06: 54
    I will add to your thinking. Automotive and other equipment (onboard, dump trucks, truck tractors, truck cranes, excavators on cars, cranes and other lifting equipment on pneumatic chassis, tank trucks , refuellers, sprinklers, disinfectants, workshops, chargers, lighting, etc., grain trucks and vans, etc., buses, ambulances, off-road cars and motorcycles, car trailers of all kinds, tracked and wheeled tractors with trailers and without, heavy trailers, carts and trailers, road and engineering vehicles, ... cartage and pack transport - not all can be listed here), intended and withdrawn from the economic complex of the country and from citizens (earlier - from the national economy, how did it sound? ) and believe that even taking into account the permissible replacement of military types and brands of cars by civilian ones, there will be enough variety of layouts for every taste with. And there is no alternative to this. If the task of staffing the CPG from the number of units and formations of combat and combat support, with standard equipment can still be solved by the forces of peacetime industries, then their subsequent echelons, and parts of other purposes, types and arms of troops, and even more so those remaining in place, can only be removed from the EKS and provision from local resources (i.e. they will be robbed).
    And if you focus on meeting the demand for specific vehicles for the recruitment of groups in small, slow-moving conflicts, then you may not be able to cope with the staffing of the first echelons. Even capitalists are not visible, hammering storage facilities and open parking areas of storage bases with military types and brands of equipment.
  35. 0
    19 September 2021 23: 50
    Kamaz in the convoy is still in Afghanistan for its "anti-mine" qualities. But mass orders of KAMAZ trucks went to the army under comrade Tolibasik Taburetkin along a related line for a small share. And no arguments for the military value of the Urals, of course, could be heard. What is there to talk about, who is looking for common sense in what is happening?
  36. 0
    20 September 2021 10: 24
    GAZ 66 was abandoned in favor of Sadko, when it was, don't you remember?
    but from KamAZ in favor of the Urals we can not? - then there are reasons not at all in the field of technical characteristics
    And the price tags for Typhoons - do not bother you? our own components (mostly), the workforce is our own, and the price tag is based on the "western market", are we so rich or are we still "kickbacks"?
    Therefore, the lives of fighters are consumables.
    1. 0
      20 September 2021 13: 08
      The cabover-free scheme is more a tribute to fashion than an objective necessity, even in civilian life it is far from being needed everywhere, mainly where you often have to move backwards in cramped conditions, for example, a dump truck at a construction site or a small truck such as a gazelle delivers goods to shops and of course the bus is extra length critical, and let's say a truck tractor could well be bonneted. and then the bonnetlessness does not in any way increase the throughput of highways. Military use without a bonnet scheme is not determined by anything, except for the fashion itself, while building a cabover armored car in which everything is in a pile under the cabin and steering wheels with large niches and a bridge and an engine, and an armored cabin floor and its armor (plus the total height of the vehicle is limited requirements for armored cars) all together greatly complicates the design, restricts access for repairs, reduces the internal volume and height of the cab and, most importantly, shifts the center of gravity of the vehicle forward overloading the steering wheels ..
  37. 0
    22 September 2021 09: 36
    fools of the army leaders realize that not only GAZ 66 is bad at war !!!!!!
  38. Rin
    0
    1 October 2021 06: 40
    How to anticipate what awaits at the Rockade, it must be the gift of a clairvoyant.
  39. 0
    13 October 2021 14: 48
    Kamaz? There have always been Urals if there is a threat of undermining. So the mistake of the organization is obvious.
  40. 0
    6 December 2021 21: 20
    KamAZ stands about one and a half meters from the road ... what did he forget there ?? From deviated from the route and. ..
  41. -1
    16 December 2021 04: 34
    I completely agree. KAMAZ is clearly not the place there.
  42. 0
    2 January 2022 14: 06
    According to the recollections of a guy who fought in the first Chechen war, they entered Bamut, they were fired upon by militants from Grad. All the cars burned down, except for the Urals. The dirt was such that the Urals were carrying the BMP, the motor plant in the Uralaz was defeated by Muscovites from ZIL. Then there was a second attempt, but Academician Makeev got in with his secrecy. And then, fortunately, the plant at KAMAZ burned down. Now they are installing a diesel engine from Yaroslavl ..
  43. 0
    19 January 2022 23: 08
    The article is an attempt to disrupt the anti-Russian hype on someone else's life and death!
    Nothing sacred from the author!