Armored vehicles of Germany in the Second World War. Self-propelled installation Sturmpanzer 38 (t) Grille

69
Sturmpanzer 38 (t), the official name of Geschützwagen 38 (t) für s.IG.33 / 2 (Sf) or 15 cm s.IG.33 / 2 auf Panzerkampfwagen 38 (t), as well as grille and a lot of use of a looper (as many as you can enjoy using a looper). Cricket ") - German light self-propelled installation class self-propelled howitzers of the Second World War.

According to the departmental heading of the Ministry of Arms of Nazi Germany, the self-propelled gun was designated as Sd.Kfz.138 / 1. This combat vehicle was created in 1942 on the basis of a light obsolete tank Panzerkampfwagen 38 (t) by BMM in Prague. The impetus for the appearance of Grille was the Wehrmacht's need for mobile field artillery.

Armored vehicles of Germany in the Second World War. Self-propelled installation Sturmpanzer 38 (t) Grille


Initially it was assumed that a modified Panzerkampfwagen 38 (t) (modification M) lightweight chassis with an arrangement in the middle part of the power plant housing would be used for the ACS undercarriage. But the chassis was not ready and the Panzerkampfwagen 91 (t) Ausf.H chassis was used for the first batch of machines consisting of an 38 machine in which the engine compartment was located at the rear. The turret was removed from the tank, and instead a fixed wheelhouse was mounted, equipped with s.IG.33 150 mm heavy infantry guns. This modification was produced in February-April 1943. In April, the 1943 of the chassis with the engine in the middle was worked out and the production of an SAU for the M version began in which the combat compartment was located behind. This lineup of the machine was more convenient for the maintenance of the gun, as well as the supply of ammunition from the ground. In April-June 1943 and October 1943 - September 1944 was built by BMM 282 ACS Grille and 120 ammunition carriers. In fact, armored ammunition carriers were the same self-propelled guns. The weapon embrasure in the cutting armor was sealed. If necessary, in the field it was possible to install the s.IG.33 / 2 infantry guns back, turning the carrier of ammunition into a fully self-propelled unit.

For the first time, "Cricket" was involved in the summer of 1943, on the Kursk Bulge. In addition to their direct appointment as self-propelled howitzers for firing from closed positions, self-propelled guns were often used for direct fire support of infantry with direct fire. Despite the firepower, the car as a whole was unsuccessful. The short and light chassis was not optimized for the installation of a heavy artillery system with high recoil. When firing with small elevation angles, the Sturmpanzer 38 (t) jumped back a little after each shot (the nickname “cricket” appeared from here), the ammunition load was small (therefore, the creation of a specialized conveyor was needed), was the result of strong recoil. However, in the absence of another alternative to Grille, serial production continued until September 1944. Subsequently, an attempt was also made to mount s.IG.33 on the basis of the light tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38 (t), however, according to T. Yentz, documentary evidence of serial production This model is not. Grille self-propelled units took part in battles until the end of the war. Today it is known about one machine of this type, which is exhibited in the museum of the Aberdeen testing ground of the American army.



Combat Sturmpanzer 38 (t)

The heavy infantry cannon mounted on a self-propelled armored chassis, during the French campaign, were in service with the German tank armies 6. However, only with the arrival of 200 new SAU Sd.Kfz.138 / 1 in the troops it turned out to increase the firepower of the infantry units in the tank divisions, and this increase was not due to the number of vehicles, but due to their quality. According to the staff list of the Panzergrenadier and Tank Divisions 1943 – 1945, each compound had only 12 self-propelled infantry guns. They were not part of the division artillery, which is armed with towed guns and self-propelled guns. Units of infantry self-propelled guns were directly attached to the Panzergrenadier regiments as fire support vehicles. According to 6, self-propelled guns had mechanized regiments on trucks and armored personnel carriers (organizationally, the guns were reduced to the 9 company). This organization was purely theoretical, since 200 SAU Sd.Kfz. 138 / 1 could not meet the needs of all the Panzer and Grenadier Divisions. On 12, it was transferred to 1, 2, 4, 5, 16, 17, 24, 26, Tank, 3 and 29, Panzergrenadier Wehrmacht divisions, Panz, Panthergrenadier Wehrmacht, Panzer, Panzer Grenadier divisions, Wehrmacht, Panzer, Panzergrenadier divisions, Wehrmacht, Panzerg. divisions "Feldkhernhalle" and "Great Germany", SS tank divisions "Dead Head", "Das Reich" and "Adolf Hitler". The remaining released vehicles were used in reserve units and for crew training. The above divisions operated mainly in Italy or on the Eastern Front. SAU Sd.Kfz. 138 / 1 proved to be excellent in battles, however, due to losses, their number significantly decreased. The desire to compensate for the loss was the reason for the order in November 1943, 10 machines Sd.Kfz. 138 / 1. The batch was made at the beginning of 1944, after which the vehicles were transferred to four tank divisions: 2, 4, 17, and Dead Head. The solution to the problem was the introduction of a fourth vehicle in the three gun batteries, designed to transport ammunition and devoid of guns. The release of ammunition transporters was carried out in parallel with the manufacture of self-propelled guns. In January-May, the 1944 of the BMM plant produced 93 machine data. The plant also concluded a contract for the supply of weapons for 40 transporters, which were made in May: thus, if necessary, these machines could be converted in field conditions to “normal” self-propelled guns, with 150-mm guns. As of March 1945, according to German sources, the troops numbered 173 self-propelled guns "Grille", but did not specify how many of them are self-propelled guns and how many ammunition transporters. In April, the 1945 of the last 13 self-propelled guns entered service with the 3's tank divisions: three vehicles entered the 18 and 20 divisions, the rest in the 25. According to Czechoslovak army data, in October 1948, there were thirteen ammunition transporters in the country.



Performance characteristics of the self-propelled unit Sturmpanzer 38 (t) Grille:
Combat weight - 11,5 t;
Layout: front - engine compartment and control compartment, rear - fighting compartment in the wheelhouse;
Crew - 5 man;
Production years - from 1943 to 1944;
Years of operation - from 1943 to 1945;
The number of cars produced - 282 pcs .;
Dimensions:
Length - 4835 mm;
Width - 2150 mm;
Height - mm 2400;
Clearance - 400 mm;
Booking:
Type of armor - steel surface hardened rolled;
The forehead of the body (bottom) - 15 mm / 15 deg .;
The forehead of the body (top), 10 mm / 67 deg .;
Chassis side (bottom) - 15 mm / 0 degrees;
Chassis side (top) - 10 mm / 15 degrees;
Body feed (bottom) - 10 mm / 41 degrees;
Body feed (top) - 10 mm / 0 degrees;
Bottom - 10 mm;
The roof of the case - mm 8;
Forehead felling - 10 mm / 9 grad .;
The cabin deck is 10 mm / 16 degrees;
Feeding chow - 10 mm / 17 degrees;
The roof of the cabin is open;
Armament:
Type of gun - howitzer;
Brand gun and caliber - sIG33 / 2, 150-mm;
Ammunition gun - 15 shots;
Vertical guidance angles - from -3 to + 72 degrees;
Horizontal guidance angles - ± 5 degrees;
Firing range - 4700 m;
Mobility:
Engine Type –6-cylinder liquid-cooled carburetor;
Engine power - 150 l. with.;
Highway speed - 42 km / h;
Speed ​​over rough terrain - 20 km / h;
Cruising over rough terrain - 140 km;
Specific power - 13,0 l. s./t;
Suspension type - on leaf springs, interlocked in pairs;
Ground pressure - 0,75 kg / cm2;
Gradeability - 30 grad .;
Breakable wall - 0,85 m;
Overcoming ditch - 1,9 m;
Overcoming ford - 0,9 m.



Camouflaged German self-propelled howitzers "Cricket" combat group Gresser. The German Sd.Kfz armored personnel carrier is also visible in the background. 251 and captured by the Germans American tank M4 "Sherman". Corroceto town near Aprilia


Abandoned 150-mm ACS Sd.Kfz. 138 / 1 Ausf. M “Cricket” (“Grille”) of the 40 Tank Grenadier Regiment of the German 17 Tank Division


"Grille" in the Museum of the Aberdeen Proving Ground
69 comments
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  1. Brother Sarych
    0
    10 September 2012 09: 39
    Frankly, not a beauty!
    If I'm not mistaken, Shirokorad is delighted with the German infantry guns? And the usual ones were a lot of trouble, so the decision to put such a gun on a self-propelled chassis was correct, although the "legs", frankly, are rather weak ...
    1. +2
      10 September 2012 11: 16
      Beauty was not beauty, but she was able to provide continuous fire support for the rollers. The normal car was light and cheap and the Germans used it correctly.
  2. Skavron
    +1
    10 September 2012 09: 59
    Did the paint run out at the Aberdeen Proving Ground?
  3. valiant
    +3
    10 September 2012 11: 26
    There is almost no photo of the first modification of the "Grille" (VII serie TNHPS, Gerat 805), notice how different the cutting shape was from the subsequent tenth series of Gerat 806:

  4. 0
    10 September 2012 11: 30
    A surviving chassis was found in a Polish tank.
    What just did not make of it.
    1. Brother Sarych
      +2
      10 September 2012 11: 45
      They probably wanted to write Czech? Yeah...
      1. +1
        10 September 2012 11: 49
        Quote: Brother Sarich
        Czech, probably

        exactly.
        1. Kibb
          +2
          10 September 2012 12: 17
          Right now will the second series go? I am pleased to read)))
          1. 0
            10 September 2012 14: 18
            Not here he was late. I already admitted that I was mistaken, that Poland had beguiled me))
            1. Kibb
              0
              10 September 2012 14: 32
              I'm not talking about the chassis, well, it happens with everyone ... especially a Monday. Regimental (yes, I know - you will say field, but it doesn’t change the essence, and in such a caliber) gaubiua on tracks and with armor, and the elevation angle is normal. Next - Have Fun As You Want
              1. +3
                10 September 2012 14: 56
                Quote: Kibb
                I'm not talking about the chassis, well, it happens with everyone ...

                yes no really I even went up to the article to double-check - 38T and wrote --- Poland)))
                Quote: Kibb
                gaubiua on tracks and with armor, and the elevation angle is normal

                Is it good or bad?
                I personally think that the machine is necessary and useful, (although not entirely successful, don’t say ersatz) sorry I just worked for the Fritz.
                1. Kibb
                  +1
                  10 September 2012 15: 00
                  Quote: Kars
                  I personally think that the machine is necessary and useful, (although not entirely successful, don’t say ersatz) sorry I just worked for the Fritz.

                  I think so too
              2. +1
                10 September 2012 15: 30
                Quote: Kibb
                especially Monday


                And since Saturday I haven’t come to my senses .... the brain doesn’t give commands to the hands of the tablet
                1. Kibb
                  +1
                  10 September 2012 15: 34
                  Vadivak,
                  About the same garbage, and what’s interesting and didn’t drink
                  1. +1
                    10 September 2012 15: 39
                    Quote: Kibb
                    Getting older


                    Yeah. Given an abundant and fatty snack (ram, and derivatives) in an Uzbek restaurant, one horseradish did not master more than 0,7, and in the morning there was something like - I'd rather die yesterday
          2. -1
            10 September 2012 19: 25
            why, wrong, got better all right wink
    2. Insurgent
      +1
      11 September 2012 21: 57
      http://mod.mil.by/armia/pdf/2012n2/8.pdf на вот прочитай про бронетехнику если интересно http://mod.mil.by/armia/pdf/2012n3/9.pdf
  5. +2
    10 September 2012 12: 20
    I didn’t understand the fourth photo from the bottom: the Germans seem to be traveling on self-propelled guns, and our officers are clearly standing. What's this?
    1. borisst64
      0
      10 September 2012 14: 00
      It takes surrender))
    2. 0
      10 September 2012 18: 38
      I also did not understand, and the photo is without a signature. The Germans are smiling. Cool surrender.
  6. 0
    10 September 2012 14: 05
    looks like a tractor with a gun ... yes, our self-propelled guns are more beautiful and efficient
    1. +2
      10 September 2012 14: 25
      Quote: sasha 19871987
      yes, our self-propelled guns

      We didn’t have the same class of self-propelled guns. And our infantry also had fire support. The SU and ISU-152 were of another class and other subordination.
      1. +3
        10 September 2012 16: 17
        Quote: Kars
        We did not have the same class of self-propelled guns.



        A Su-122 will not ride?
        1. +2
          10 September 2012 16: 33
          Unfortunately, no. Ours did the assault self-propelled guns. The elevation angle is small. The middle self-propelled guns. And then the lungs.
          You can take a look
          http://topwar.ru/18634-bronetankovaya-tehnika-germanii-vo-vtoroy-mirovoy-voyne-s
          amohodnaya-ustanovka-wespe-sd-kfz-124.html # comment-id-576968

          and what Kibb said referring to the first series.
          1. +1
            10 September 2012 16: 46
            Quote: Kars
            Medium SPG


            Yes, given the German chassis
        2. Kibb
          +2
          10 September 2012 16: 44
          Vadivak,
          Well, that’s where the argument started.
          No rolling.
          The range of a direct shot is small, getting into a point target is difficult (Well, at least it doesn’t jump like the M30)
          Hence the second problem, we must come closer, but the armor does not allow this
          Use with closed position is difficult due to low elevation
          The rest - thanks at least like that
          1. +2
            10 September 2012 17: 28
            Quote: Kibb
            Hence the second problem, we must come closer


            I read about the tactics recommended by the OGK NKTP moving at a distance of 400-600 m behind the attacking tanks, the Su-122 were supposed to destroy the detected firing points, and from February 14–1943, 54, in a private operation of the 4th Army in the Smerdynia area, it was precisely such tactics for 47 days destroyed 5 bunkers, crushed 14 mortar batteries, destroyed 19 anti-tank guns and 28 to 4 vehicles, burned XNUMX ammunition depots.

            With regards to self-propelled guns, I read this (in addition to Igor’s comment)

            The Self-propelled Artillery Training Center characterized the first SU-122 as excessively heavy (over 31,5 tons), difficult to master and prone to damage to the undercarriage.
            1. Kibb
              +1
              10 September 2012 17: 46
              Vadim, try on the parts of your comment, it’s understandable, the howitzer shoots, the shell explodes. only weapons are usually made for tactics, and not for turnover
              The result was a good IT, but the problem with the chassis remained - the load on the front rollers will not get anywhere
              For a long time on this occasion, a hitch with Andrei
      2. 0
        10 September 2012 17: 40
        Why not? It seems there is nothing particularly complicated in the design.
        1. Kibb
          0
          10 September 2012 18: 02
          Quote: bairat
          Why not? It seems there is nothing particularly complicated in the design.

          1Not so many chassis were, the Germans in this regard was easier.
          2. We did not have a regimental howitzer in such a caliber (I will make a reservation - there were about 100 pieces of the same German)
          1. 0
            10 September 2012 19: 27
            add
            kars thinks "there was no fantasy."

            while I repeat, the Germans used such weapons in tank units.
            -in our tank units there was a lack of conventional artillery of large hummingbirds, up to a complete absence.
            - the lack of a support system for the creation of appropriate parts (see German mechanization, etc., and so on)
            - the absence (shortage) of frames-mechanical drivers, mechanics, etc.
            and a bunch of other factors
            all this and 44 a year did not give us the opportunity to create
            and successes towards the end of the war eliminated the urgent need for such a technique
            1. -1
              10 September 2012 19: 43
              I’ll add to make it clearer what problems were exemplified by Su122
              The combat experience gained during the use of these regiments was subjected to serious analysis, since as a result a whole series of miscalculations and shortcomings of the material part were revealed. A large number of SU-76 failures due to a design error of their motor group led to a halt in their serial production and part of the self-propelled artillery in anticipation of the upcoming summer campaign turned out to be understaffed. Proceeding from this, a correction was made to the organizational and staffing structure of the SAP with a decrease in the total number of self-propelled guns to 20 vehicles, and the share of SU-122 increased significantly. According to staff number 08 / 191, adopted at the beginning of the 1943, the SAP consisted of five batteries, four units each, of which three batteries were armed with SU-122, and two were equipped with SU-76 with the number of personnel in 289. The second important factor in determining the necessary structure of self-propelled artillery units was the recognition of the fact that neither tankers nor artillery separately possessed a complete set of skills for the correct application of self-propelled guns. Therefore, in February 1943, the first self-propelled artillery training center was opened to train personnel, and subsequently others were organized behind it as the need for the corresponding kind of personnel grew. The last change in the organizational plan based on the results of the first combat experience was the reassignment of self-propelled artillery units to the commander of the armored and mechanized units of the Red Army. The reason for this was the lack of diesel fuel, evacuation facilities, spare parts, the ability to repair damaged material and adequate supplies from artillerymen.

              in other words, there are many problems, but the remainder is the same
            2. Kibb
              +1
              10 September 2012 20: 01
              Quote: Stas57
              while I repeat, the Germans used such weapons in tank units.
              This is a regimental gun, and used it on this basis
              Quote: Stas57
              -in our tank units there was a lack of conventional artillery of large hummingbirds, up to a complete absence.
              - the lack of a support system for the creation of appropriate parts (see German mechanization, etc., and so on)
              - the absence (shortage) of frames-mechanical drivers, mechanics, etc.

              Well, so on this issue, and did not argue
              Specifically, Wasp and Grill here with?
              1. 0
                10 September 2012 20: 52
                This is a regimental gun, and used it on this basis

                ok, please explain / suggest where the error is.
                I will gladly accept a reasoned answer
                1. Kibb
                  0
                  10 September 2012 21: 21
                  Well, how to explain, probably something like this
                  1Rota- battalion-eb ... va..mamu-PULEMET- a colonel works on it, or company or battalion mortars, in the modern version also an automatic grenade launcher
                  2. The regiment - "there is a machine gun" on it the divisional works
                  3 "Here is the position of the enemy, he must be destroyed" - we choose ourselves - from MLRS
                  to YaB, but at that time it was either hull guns or artillery of the RGK and MLRS, of course, in any variant of submission
                  1. DIMS
                    +1
                    10 September 2012 21: 41
                    Everything is easier. Regimental artillery is subordinate to the regiment commander.
                    All the rest, for example, at the divisional level, can be given, but at any time they can either start working on goals that are priority for the division, or even be withdrawn.
                  2. 0
                    10 September 2012 22: 30
                    Quote: Kibb
                    Well, how to explain, probably something like this

                    He does not understand, he does not know the difference. And probably did not even pay attention to the characteristics of the art system.

                    But the Germans understood much earlier.

                    PS. For stsik on PHOTO not Grill. (You can search for berets)
            3. 0
              10 September 2012 22: 25
              Quote: Stas57
              in our tank units there was a lack of conventional artillery of large hummingbirds up to a complete absence

              And that there was no need to try to correct the situation?
              Quote: Stas57
              lack of a support system to create the appropriate parts (see German mechanization, etc., and so on)

              Not everything was built right away, so from the lack of something, it is necessary to stop progress?
              Quote: Stas57
              - the absence (shortage) of frames-mechanical drivers, mechanics, etc.
              Such absence is direct? And who then hit the Nazis?
              Quote: Stas57
              all this and 44 a year did not give us the opportunity to create
              At the same time, more and more 10 000 SPGs of the Su-76 were created and used, something does not grow together.
              Quote: Stas57
              and successes towards the end of the war eliminated the urgent need for such a technique

              At the same time, in 1944-45, Soviet troops suffered huge losses, including due to the lack of artillery escort of tank breakthroughs.
              Quote: Stas57
              Kars thinks "there was no fantasy".

              and professionalism.
              1. 0
                10 September 2012 22: 58
                And that there was no need to try to correct the situation?

                necessary, the question is how
                Not everything was built right away, so from the lack of something, it is necessary to stop progress?

                no, what "grandmothers" from what and how

                Such absence is direct? And who then hit the Nazis?

                forgot the order of the tank only in the tank?
                At the same time, more and more 10 000 SPGs of the Su-76 were created and used, something does not grow together.

                stupid leadership?

                At the same time, in 1944-45, Soviet troops suffered huge losses, including due to the lack of artillery escort of tank breakthroughs.

                stupid leadership?
                1. 0
                  10 September 2012 23: 02
                  Quote: Stas57
                  necessary, the question is how

                  No questions should be asked, but a matter to be done.
                  Quote: Stas57
                  no, what "grandmothers" from what and how

                  Soviet, made of steel, as well as tanks.
                  Quote: Stas57
                  forgot the order of the tank only in the tank?

                  The Germans always had this, and not only in the tank, but also in their unit, and even their own tank --- much better quality.
                  And where do you think it was necessary to send tankers? To the infantry))
                  Quote: Stas57
                  stupid leadership?

                  not without it, and let someone object.
                  1. -1
                    10 September 2012 23: 09
                    No questions should be asked, but a matter to be done.

                    how smart are you, how, who and where will they do it?
                    how tankers, some of whom are illiterate, will use it

                    Soviet, made of steel, as well as tanks.

                    you understand perfectly
                    I repeat once again how, who and where
                    The Germans always had this, and not only in the tank, but also in their unit, and even their own tank --- much better quality.
                    And where do you think it was necessary to send tankers? To the infantry))

                    not, in self-propelled artillery units of course, on self-propelled artillery such as Vespe and others with 122, 152, and two hundred with horseradish mm

                    not without it, and let someone object.

                    and what do you mind, would you go there, would you show everything as it should, right?
                    "dumb leadership" proceeded from what is, but there were not so many
                    1. 0
                      10 September 2012 23: 18
                      Quote: Stas57
                      how smart are you, how, who and where will they do it?

                      In the Urals, in Leningrad, Kharkov --- where the T-34s clipped and the Su-76
                      Quote: Stas57
                      how tankers, some of whom are illiterate, will use it

                      How did they get Berlin? And how did they use the tanks?
                      Along the way, someone humiliates the dignity of the Soviet people. Did they shoot from the M-30? Have they taken the Su-76? but the M-30 based on the Su-76 (or something else is not accurate) there is no one there.
                      Quote: Stas57
                      not,

                      What nope? Didn’t you know that the German tankers were leaving in their units after being wounded?
                      Quote: Stas57
                      to self-propelled artillery units of course
                      but how do you think the SU-76 crews were formed? Su-85? Su-100? Su-152? ISU-122? ISU-152?
                      Quote: Stas57
                      , you’d go there, you would have shown everything as it should, right?

                      I am from the future, for them, therefore I would show, but who would listen.

                      Quote: Stas57
                      stupid leadership "proceeded from what is, but there were not many

                      Something you put your tongue in one place about the number of SU-76? Were there few of them?
                      Or did the Fritz have a lot in 1944-45? And they fought against superior forces, and fought fiercely.
                      1. -1
                        10 September 2012 23: 28
                        How did they get Berlin? And how did they use the tanks?
                        Along the way, someone humiliates the dignity of the Soviet people. Did they shoot from the M-30? Have they taken the Su-76? but the M-30 based on the Su-76 (or something else is not accurate) there is no one there.

                        we humiliate the dignity of Soviet leaders, designers, those who are at the factory, etc.? they are not your people?
                        What nope? Didn’t you know that the German tankers were leaving in their units after being wounded?

                        were returning, or were they driven by special order?
                        we can see their fucking was
                        but how do you think the SU-76 crews were formed? Su-85? Su-100? Su-152? ISU-122? ISU-152?

                        I brought you
                        I will bring more
                        The second important factor in determining the necessary structure of the parts of self-propelled artillery was the awareness of the fact that neither tankers nor gunners individually have a complete set of skills for the correct application of self-propelled guns. Therefore, in February 1943, the first self-propelled artillery training center was opened to train personnel, and subsequently others were organized behind it as the need for the corresponding kind of personnel grew. The last change in the organizational plan based on the results of the first combat experience was the reassignment of self-propelled artillery units to the commander of the armored and mechanized units of the Red Army. The reason for this was the lack of diesel fuel, evacuation facilities, spare parts, the ability to repair damaged material and adequate supplies from artillerymen
                        I am from the future, for them, therefore I would show, but who would listen.

                        parrot in one word

                        Something you put your tongue in one place about the number of SU-76? Were there few of them?
                        Or did the Fritz have a lot in 1944-45? And they fought against superior forces, and fought fiercely.

                        A large number of SU-76 failures due to a design error of their motor group led to a halt in their serial production and part of the self-propelled artillery in anticipation of the upcoming summer campaign turned out to be understaffed.
                        and then shot shells to them))))))
                        why didn’t you answer, something 76 mm 21mln shot at such a number of sau
                        but 122mm filkin shell nose, horseradish base and horseradish SPG?
                      2. 0
                        10 September 2012 23: 43
                        Quote: Stas57
                        we humiliate the dignity of Soviet leaders, designers, those who are at the factory, etc.? they are not your people?

                        I’m telling the truth. Just like I say that the T-34s in 1941-1942 were not a masterpiece.
                        Quote: Stas57
                        Therefore, in February 1943, the first self-propelled artillery training center was opened.

                        And the Germans back in 1936, that’s the whole answer, I don’t need to wave here in 1943.
                        Quote: Stas57
                        parts of self-propelled artillery to the commander of armored and mechanized units of the Red Army. The reason for this was the lack of diesel fuel.

                        Who wrote this by the way? Re-subordination for reasons of lack of fuel, especially when they immediately had to be subordinate to the mechanical connections.
                        So the quote is past --- as the video art of self-propelled artillery was not disbanded))
                        Quote: Stas57
                        parrot in one word

                        No, I'm the one here.
                        Quote: Stas57
                        A large number of SU-76 failures due to a design error of their motor group led to a halt in their serial production and part of the self-propelled artillery in anticipation of the upcoming summer campaign turned out to be understaffed.

                        And you thought you were in a fairy tale? But they were still used and built, and you even had hair on them ... they were.
                        Quote: Stas57
                        why didn’t you answer, something 76 mm 21mln shot at such a number of sau

                        And what are you talking about? How many samples of art systems fired 76 mm shells in your opinion? How do you calculate?
                        How much is 122 mm?
                        Damn is another indicator of your fragility and narrowness.
                        Today, I have belittled you enough, I’m going to read not Kurovsky’s myths)))))))
                      3. -1
                        10 September 2012 23: 48
                        Today, I have belittled you enough, I’m going to read not Kurovsky’s myths)))))))

                        go humiliate
                        we can google kolobanovka column)))
          2. DIMS
            +1
            10 September 2012 21: 34
            Quote: Kibb
            We didn’t have a regimental howitzer in such a caliber

            We generally had no regimental howitzers.
            1. Kibb
              0
              10 September 2012 22: 25
              Quote: DIMS
              We generally had no regimental howitzers.

              So I about it, and you see, there were even self-propelled .. the Germans
              1. DIMS
                +1
                10 September 2012 22: 31
                It’s just that our states were very unbalanced. Huge failures in artillery, air defense systems, etc. Cause? Favoritism.
                1. +1
                  10 September 2012 22: 34
                  Quote: DIMS
                  Huge failures in artillery, air defense systems, etc.

                  When I mention this, there was usually a flurry of criticism on me.
                  And the states of the fur compounds of the beginning of the war are simply not clear how they came up.
                  1. DIMS
                    +1
                    10 September 2012 22: 52
                    And what if it was so? The mythological feat of the Panfilov heroes is based on the real defense of the 1075th Infantry Regiment. In the morning they were able to drive off reconnaissance, while knocking out several pieces of equipment. And then they were rolled out by units of the 2nd Guards Tank native to Guderian. Due to lack of artillery. 4 obsolete regimental guns were destroyed by the Germans almost immediately. And all the German losses of that day are a consequence of the heroism of our soldiers. In the same 4th company, not 28, but 100 people out of 178 in the state died that day.
  7. 0
    10 September 2012 21: 39
    Kibb Thank you
    1 is more careful, they gave me a warning for a substitute)
    1.2.3
    it is clear, but it is not clear what confused you here?
    while I repeat, the Germans used such weapons in tank units.

    This is a regimental gun, and used it on this basis

    while the selection of capsloc is not accidental?

    Well, so on this issue, and did not argue

    Yes, and I did not argue, supplemented the reasons for the lack of our analogue
    1. -1
      10 September 2012 22: 31
      Quote: Stas57
      supplemented the reasons for the lack of our analogue


      Our professional strategists wanted to get by with a mortar. And for this our soldiers paid huge losses.
      And this can be said the only reason.
      1. 0
        10 September 2012 22: 39
        Our professional strategists wanted to get by with a mortar. And for this our soldiers paid huge losses.
        And this can be said the only reason.

        without a personal assessment and an assessment of opportunities, it’s just with mortars that we have an overwhelming superiority in shell costs
        1. 0
          10 September 2012 22: 41
          Quote: Stas57
          just the mortars we have an overwhelming advantage in the cost of shells

          Does this contradict my words? Maybe this is why we also have less 122 mm shells than 105 mm Fritz?
          More precisely, a mortar or an infantry weapon?
          1. -1
            10 September 2012 22: 51
            Does this contradict my words? Maybe this is why we also have less 122 mm shells than 105 mm Fritz?
            More precisely, a mortar or an infantry weapon?

            Have you already defended?
            I didn’t say what contradicts, 120 mm mines 3mln, but 82 mm mines 15
            1. 0
              10 September 2012 23: 05
              Quote: Stas57
              I didn’t say what contradicts, 120 mm mines 3mln, but 82 mm mines 15

              Why did you say that? Why?
              I will not conduct a dialogue with a person understating the feat of Kolabanov out of principle.
              1. -1
                10 September 2012 23: 15
                Why did you say that? Why?

                did you understand that?
                I will not conduct dialogue with a person understating the feat of Kolabanov from the principle

                I said that you have personal
                I repeat to you here, prove that he knocked them out there from the German side,
                but you still
                Katukov under Mtsensk -133 knocked out, and "the losses of the brigade are counted in units" - myths,
                Sirotinin 52 German corpse and alone- myth
                1. 0
                  10 September 2012 23: 23
                  Quote: Stas57
                  did you understand that?

                  Strange I asked a direct question
                  Quote: Kars
                  Why did you say that? Why?

                  If I understood your unformatted logic, I wouldn’t ask questions. Logically? But with your question you showed the level of your intellect.
                  Quote: Stas57
                  I said that you have a personal

                  When did you say that? And I can only repeat
                  Quote: Stas57
                  I will not conduct dialogue with a person understating the feat of Kolabanov from the principle

                  Quote: Stas57
                  prove that he knocked them out there from the German side

                  Do I need it? I proved that he could do it, and the German reports on losses through and through are false, this is beyond doubt.
                  1. -1
                    10 September 2012 23: 41
                    Do I need it? I proved that he could do it, and the German reports on losses through and through are false, this is beyond doubt.

                    they all lie (s)
                    or drain
                    When did you say that? And I can only repeat

                    Yes, only today, I forgot already.
                    If I understood your unformatted logic, I wouldn’t ask questions. Logically? But with your question you showed the level of your intellect.

                    mind you, the transition to personality, instead of a direct answer.
                    Strange I asked a direct question


                    come back
                    KarsOur professional strategists wanted to get by with a mortar. And for this our soldiers paid huge losses.
                    And this can be said the only reason.

                    Stas
                    without a personal assessment and an assessment of opportunities, it’s just with mortars that we have an overwhelming superiority in shell costs

                    KarsDoes this contradict my words? Maybe this is why we also have less 122 mm shells than 105 mm Fritz?
                    More precisely, a mortar or an infantry weapon?

                    Stas
                    Have you already defended?
                    I didn’t say what contradicts, 120 mm mines 3mln, but 82 mm mines 15


                    KarsWhy did you say that? Why?

                    Stas
                    did you understand that?

                    Kars
                    Strange I asked a direct question


                    so you yourself understand that, or again not?
                    1. 0
                      10 September 2012 23: 50
                      Quote: Stas57
                      so you yourself understand that, or again not?

                      No, I don’t understand. Why did you mention the consumption of mortar mines?
                      Actually, why did you make my quote and write what everyone already knows?
                      So I do not understand ------ WHY?
                      And then a bunch of quotes, but no answer.
                      I repeat
                      Quote: Stas57
                      Why did you say that?

                      to make it easier for you to pronounce something about which you should answer
                      Quote: Stas57
                      stas57 (1) Today, 22:39 PM ↑ ↓ 0 Our professional strategists wanted to get by with a mortar. And for this, our soldiers paid huge losses.
                      And this can be said the only reason.
                      without a personal assessment and an assessment of opportunities, it’s just with mortars that we have an overwhelming superiority in shell costs

                      Huh?
                      1. -1
                        10 September 2012 23: 55
                        No, I don’t understand. Why did you mention the consumption of mortar mines?
                        Actually, why did you make my quote and write what everyone already knows?
                        So I do not understand ------ WHY?
                        And then a bunch of quotes, but no answer.
                        I repeat

                        I understand that you are the most intelligent in the world, but
                        here and others read
                        you did not know these numbers
                        go already, you won’t say goodbye in any way, otherwise you’ll catch more plush
                      2. 0
                        11 September 2012 10: 10
                        Quote: Stas57
                        you did not know these numbers

                        I knew them, in principle, DIMS can confirm this, because the tables for the presence of trunks and ammunition consumption were featured in our ZIS-3 dispute with him.
                        Quote: Stas57
                        otherwise you'll catch some plush

                        From you? Don’t laugh. Can you bring one from this branch?))))
                        Yes, of course I liked your reason ---- to show that you know at least something, and also smart)))

                        By the way, I have a book that does not bother you to read, there is an excellent article about mortars
                2. DIMS
                  +2
                  10 September 2012 23: 24
                  Why is Sirotinin a myth? The most that neither is reality. Kolabanov is the same. Nothing fancy, the right choice of position, favorable terrain conditions, the right tactics
                  1. -2
                    10 September 2012 23: 32
                    Why is Sirotinin a myth? The most that neither is reality. Kolabanov is the same. Nothing fancy, the right choice of position, favorable terrain conditions, the right tactics

                    yes no sirotinin is a real person, moreover, for the same reason, he died in 44
                    Yes, but he was not alone there, not at all, and 52 the Nazis killed the Germans probably sent to Germany, so that they cover up the traces))
                    and kolobanov, at least someone found confirmation of the enemy about the loss of at least half the number of declared equipment
                    and again he was not alone
                    1. DIMS
                      0
                      10 September 2012 23: 39
                      For a person firing direct fire from the ZIS-3 when the enemy’s equipment is behind a natural barrier, this is not enough.
                      As for confirmation, but where can I get it? How much German documentation was lost during the war?
                      1. 0
                        10 September 2012 23: 42
                        For a person shooting direct-fire ZIS-3 when the enemy’s equipment is behind a natural obstacle, this is not enough

                        Which of the ZIS-3 ?!
                        Kolobanov or Sirotinin?
                        both summer41
                      2. DIMS
                        0
                        10 September 2012 23: 51
                        Have you decided to check me out? Sirotinin from ZIS-3, Kolobanov- commander of the KV-1 tank
                      3. 0
                        11 September 2012 00: 00
                        me, check?
                        Sirotinin is the summer of 41, more precisely the 17 of July, which ZIS-3 in July 41? if ZIS-3 was adopted by February 12 1942, who did it have, how?
                        the materiel of all parts located there is known
                        with all due respect
                      4. DIMS
                        0
                        11 September 2012 00: 10
                        So another 76-mm division, F-22 or USV
                        By the way, ZIS-3 were made before official adoption.
                      5. 0
                        11 September 2012 00: 38
                        leave the issue of production,
                        dwell on the specified by you, and how to work there 1 person with drive pickups?
                        and also to bring shells, to look out for targets?
                      6. DIMS
                        0
                        11 September 2012 00: 44
                        Once I had to shoot one of the "kulak cut-off". Inconvenient, but you can shoot. There, too, the aiming mechanisms are spaced.
                      7. 0
                        11 September 2012 01: 12
                        and now the question is, how do you shoot direct fire at the last car, the tail of which is not visible to the 500 meters in the forest? and the first tank is not the first, because there are motorcyclists and intelligence ahead?
                        as a first-year sergeant, he himself will make the calculations, well, let him make up how he determines the goals behind the forest, escapes? how to make a fork and so on?
                        and here’s a map for you to understand

                        you see the mark 156.1 there the Germans came across a blockage and received from a real hero, I note, a Korean, Kim.
                        and Sirotinin was in the Sokolnichi’s field, about the second O in the name, he couldn’t see the tail of the column
                        and now the question is, as an artilleryman, how many 3 fascist artillery regiments will be spotted by a lone gun, even under the worst conditions? 2 hours?
                        here is the campf group reinforcement group
                        . (Oberst Schneider with the headquarters of Artillerie-Regiment 103, the III, schwere Morser-Abteilung 604, the 6, Artillerie-Regiment 69 and Panzer-Beobachungs-Batterie 324).

                        or maybe they didn’t detect, because nobody needed him as an elusive joe? because others mocked the Germans? maybe there was someone else like the 2th battalion of the 409th rifle regiment?
                        you tell me witnesses !?
                        and what could they see and what to understand while sitting in the basements? who shoots from across the river or not? who hit, and after the battle, a broken gun, smoke and a dead gunner.
                        Well, the orphaninin went there to the cannon, well, he lit the first car, a hero, no doubt, and a young man, I’ll notice, but 11 tanks and 52 people, this may not be his merit?
                      8. DIMS
                        0
                        11 September 2012 01: 24
                        Firstly, you look at the year of the card, 10 years is still 10 years. Secondly, there are many fields around Sokolnichi, why did you decide that he did not see the road?
                      9. 0
                        11 September 2012 01: 39
                        Firstly, you look at the year of the map, 10 years is still 10 years.

                        I like a quiet conversation)))
                        well, firstly it is clearly written that "the first edition 41", secondly the forest and now there http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003268/3268901.gif
                        You can check on Google or Yandex cards - it’s not gone anywhere since 1928
                        there were a lot of cards on the hansa
                        in the second part, I waited, here you are

                        this is either a photo from Krichev, or from the school where he studied.
                        quite officially everything.
                        you can attach and compare to a modern map
                      10. DIMS
                        0
                        11 September 2012 01: 53
                        Normal position. The bridge is perfectly visible. From the corner of the forest to the bridge 150-200 meters. What is the problem? Not destroyed the entire column, but only those whom he observed?
                      11. 0
                        11 September 2012 01: 54
                        156 mark, in it the problem was not further passed by the Germans, and there they caught,
                        ps
                        yes, but three regiments of artillery men with art observers, how ?, that they did not notice?
                        I’ll add, the video from 6,48 is clearly visible
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9piVqOXrJNk
                      12. DIMS
                        0
                        11 September 2012 02: 06
                        mark 156, in it the problem is no longer passed by the Germans, and there they caught

                        How would they "catch" there? Look at the map. And about "we didn't go further" somehow I don't really believe it ..

                        yes, but three regiments of artillery men with art observers, how ?, that they did not notice?

                        One camouflaged weapon? Judging by the fact that he was killed, they still noticed.
                      13. 0
                        11 September 2012 02: 13
                        How would they "catch" there? Look at the map. And about "we didn't go further" somehow I don't really believe it ..

                        but they didn’t go, they came across a blockage, and didn’t go (the main group), because they started shooting the area. They also caught it from Sirotinin. They even had an 409 mm howitzer from the 122 regiment.
                        They were just on the other side of the road (if I’m not mistaken), they could clearly see everything, the forest didn’t interfere with them, only the Germans appeared, opened fire, and the Germans said the same thing, that there was fire of different calibres — everything beats here.
                        and the Germans immediately spotted us and let's beat ours, it was a watch, the Germans called out their three artillery regiments, and let's beat our ours,
                        ours departed without loss
                        One camouflaged gun? Judging by the fact that he was killed, they still noticed

                        two hours?
                        What is the disguise at 2 hours of battle? and the shells for him at 2 hours next to lay down?

                        ps look for "Kim Sirotinin 1941"
                        everything is very competently painted
                      14. DIMS
                        0
                        11 September 2012 02: 30
                        Yes, not from where to shoot, the position is very unfortunate
                        About two hours, most likely an exaggeration.
                      15. 0
                        11 September 2012 02: 37
                        Yes, not from where to shoot, the position is very unfortunate

                        whose suddenly the orphan in the field is successful, but the 409 is unsuccessful?
                        I won’t tell you the exact place right now, but there are specialists who know the topic very well, tell me exactly where
                        on gans.ru even did the calculations, it all worked out.
      2. Kibb
        0
        10 September 2012 22: 47
        Well, the Germans also made a mistake with the regimental mortar, then they caught up
        1. +1
          10 September 2012 22: 50
          Quote: Kibb
          Well, the Germans also made a mistake with the regimental mortar, then they caught up

          Well, who will refuse cheap, mass weapons. For the production of which even blueprints and ammunition were given for nothing. But at the same time, they did not stop producing infantry guns.
          Yes, and they also made mortars self-propelled (not all, but maybe someone hooks up)))))))))
          1. Kibb
            0
            10 September 2012 23: 00
            But did they catch up?
            1. +1
              10 September 2012 23: 10
              honestly, I’m not sure. I was sure that they were catching up in heavy tanks, but I don’t.
              Interior of a German armored personnel carrier 251
              1. Kibb
                +1
                11 September 2012 11: 31
                Kars,
                well, it's battle
                1. +1
                  11 September 2012 13: 18
                  There are also big ones but I can’t find the photos.
                  1. Kibb
                    +1
                    11 September 2012 13: 57
                    KarsI know what they were, don't look
                    1. +1
                      11 September 2012 14: 09
                      I read about installing two 120 mm in one beta at once.
                      and I like the flamethrower with the Nurses. I imagine how fun it was to fly apart if its 700 liter tank exploded.

                      But the fact that everyone tried to put on a mobile chassis speaks for itself
                      1. 0
                        11 September 2012 23: 35
                        12,2-cm Kanone (r) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine-Shlepper (f), the German self-propelled artillery vehicle, based on a captured armored French artillery tractor (the Lorraine 37L). There was at least one vehicle of this type, which fought in France on a railroad car as part of a German armored train.
    2. Kibb
      0
      10 September 2012 22: 36
      Quote: Stas57
      1 is more careful, they gave me a warning for a substitute)

      I’ll survive, it’s just differently, I’m not Pushkin
      Quote: Stas57
      while the selection of capsloc is not accidental?

      No
      Quote: Stas57
      Yes, and I did not argue, supplemented the reasons for the lack of our analogue

      So I did not argue, so, if possible, I participated in the second series
  8. Prohor
    0
    10 September 2012 22: 14
    And what is this circus in the photo with Soviet officers on the road and clearly the German public on self-propelled guns? request
    1. DIMS
      0
      10 September 2012 22: 21
      The surrender of German troops on the spit Frisch Nerung. May 9, 1945. Our people are resourceful.
      Here is another photo
      1. DIMS
        0
        10 September 2012 22: 28
        And another one.
        The surrender of the Germans on the spit Frisch-Nehrung, East Prussia. German officers accept surrender conditions and surrender order from a Soviet officer
  9. 0
    15 September 2012 11: 26
    Guys, didn't the su-26 take part in the great?
  10. ADGH122
    0
    19 September 2012 10: 07
    Vobsche Grille bad sau lutsche su-8 or s-51