Unification and new opportunities. Armored car of special forces K-4386 ZA-SPN

Experienced armored car K-4386 ZA-SPN on "Army-2021". Photo Bastion-karpenko.ru

During the recent Army-2021 forum, Remdizel presented several new models of armored vehicles that complement the Typhoon family. So, on the basis of the existing armored car, a new K-4386 ZA-SPN vehicle was created, intended for use by special forces. While such an armored car is being tested, but next year it is planned to transfer it to the army.

Initiative development

Currently, Remdizel offers its customers a range of armored vehicles with different characteristics. One of the main developments of this kind is the K-4386 Typhoon-VDV armored car. This machine regularly appears at public events, and at the last "Army-2021" for the first time showed its new modifications, modified to solve specific problems.

One of the new developments is the "protected special purpose vehicle" K-4386 ZA-SPN. It is a Typhoon-Airborne Forces with a modified hull design and internal equipment, which received a different composition of weapons. It is assumed that an armored vehicle of this appearance will find application in the special operations forces and will help soldiers to solve a wide range of tasks.

View to the other side. Photo Bastion-karpenko.ru

The project is reportedly being developed on an initiative basis. There is already an organizational solution for it, a prototype has been built and put into preliminary tests. During a break between events at the training grounds, he took part in the exhibition. Next year "Remdizel" plans to start production of equipment and transfer the first samples to the troops.

The Ministry of Defense, considered as a launch customer, has not yet commented on the new project in any way. Perhaps any reports on tests or purchases of K-4386 ZA-SPN products will arrive later. The Russian army shows a certain interest in modern armored vehicles, and it is unlikely that the new development of "Remdizel" will remain without due attention.

Verified base

The new project is based on the design of the K-4386 armored car, previously developed according to the tactical and technical specifications of the Airborne Forces. Typhoon-VDV as a wheeled platform is distinguished by high running and dynamic characteristics, has a high level of ballistic and mine protection, and can also be equipped with different types of weapons. Also, the design allows for parachuting.

Machine feed with mortar mount. Shot from the reportage of the TV company "Star"

During the development of the K-4386 ZA-SPN armored car, the basic design has undergone some changes. In particular, some elements of the hood have been redesigned. Changed feed to create new cargo volumes. Also, a new combat module with partial armor was used, which is more consistent with the intended tasks.

Despite all the changes, the new armored car retains the standard KamAZ-610.10-350 diesel engine with a capacity of 350 hp. Dimensions remain at the level of the base sample. The total mass of the K-4386 ZA-SPN reaches 14 tons, of which 2 tons are for the crew and cargo. Accordingly, driving performance and cross-country ability remained the same.

The interior of the armored car has five seats for the driver and soldiers. The front row is double, the back row has three seats. Due to the presence of a machine-gun turret, the central one is shifted back. All seats are equipped with five-point seat belts and energy-absorbing elements to reduce the negative effects of detonation. Access to the salon, as in the base car, is provided by two pairs of side doors.

Special Forces Equipment

The K-4386 Typhoon-VDV platform allows the use of various combat modules with a wide selection of cannon, rocket and missile weapons. This opportunity is used in the new project and determines the fighting qualities of the resulting sample.

View from the shooter's place. Shot from the reportage of the TV company "Star"

A turret with circular armor protection is installed on the roof of K-4386 ZA-SPN. The arrow covers a frontal shield with an embrasure for a machine gun, as well as a box-shaped structure that unites the sides and stern. The side elements of such protection have bulletproof glass. There is no armored roof, due to which the weight of the structure is reduced and the possibility of installing additional weapons is provided.

The basic one weapons armored car becomes a large-caliber machine gun "KORD" on the installation with manual control. The exhibition vehicle was also equipped with the Kornet anti-tank missile system. Its installation is placed at the starboard side of the "tower", and the container with the missile is raised above the armor. In the central part of the cabin, directly under the turret, there are racks for boxes with machine gun ammunition. TPK missiles are transported in the aft compartment, behind the crew's seats.

The K-4386 ZA-SPN armored car is also a carrier of mortar weapons. On the stern sheet, there are mounts for transporting a 120-mm mortar with a biped. Above, there are boxes for ammunition and mounts for the base plate. If necessary, the crew can remove the mortar from the vehicle and deploy it to fire.

Basic K-4386 Typhoon-VDV. Photo "Remdizel"

Opportunities and prospects

"Protected vehicle" K-4386 ZA-SPN is offered as a multipurpose transport and combat vehicle for special forces. Thanks to the successful base chassis, it can overcome various routes and land in specified areas. The presence of several weapons at once allows you to solve a wider range of combat missions, booking will protect against small arms and mines of the enemy, and the carrying capacity can be used to increase the ammunition load or to transport other weapons or equipment.

The armored car is proposed to be used, first of all, in army special forces and in other similar structures. In them, he will be able to occupy the niche of a light or medium armored reconnaissance vehicle with some strike potential. With the help of K-4386 ZA-SPN, scouts will be able to go to the desired area, collect and transmit the necessary data, as well as deliver the first blow or defend themselves from an attack.

A vehicle with a simplified complex of weapons can be of great interest to ground or airborne troops. It can become a supplement or alternative to other armored vehicles or even armored personnel carriers, and certain advantages will be obtained over such equipment. In addition, the K-4386 ZA-SPN can be considered as a carrier of a portable mortar for artillery troops.

Typhoon-PVO is another variant of the base vehicle. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

Thus, the armored car combines the high characteristics of the base platform, which has undergone a certain revision, and new capabilities associated with a different composition of equipment and weapons. The result is a vehicle suitable for use in different parts of the army and security forces - not only in special forces.

It is not yet clear whether the K-4386 ZA-SPN project will be able to realize its potential. The armored car is reportedly developed on an initiative basis, which may negatively affect its real prospects. However, the developer company is already planning to supply new armored vehicles to the army for testing, which may indicate the existence of some agreements and certain project prospects.

Family extension

Next year, Remdizel plans to complete factory tests of the prototype K-4386 ZA-SPN armored car, and then build and transfer several new vehicles to the armed forces for the next stages of inspections. It is not known when they will be completed and what their results will be. However, the new model of equipment has certain chances of getting into the army, both in special forces and in other units.

The appearance of such a machine in units will simplify the solution of some combat and auxiliary tasks. At the same time, it will be possible to increase the overall degree of unification of technology of different structures with obtaining clear advantages. Whether the army will take advantage of such opportunities will become clear in the coming years.

Comments

[Vladimir_2U]

A turret with shields in the DUBM age looks very archaic, but better than an open machine gun mount.

[Ross xnumx]

Transportable mortar ... Machine gun "Kord" ... Previously, the task of the special forces was to conduct operations "without noise and dust" and without losses. What characteristics of the car will radically facilitate their implementation and assessment, I would like to learn from those involved in this specialty, and not from the statement of the author of the article:

The appearance of such a machine in units will simplify the solution of some combat and auxiliary tasks.

[Lynx2000]

Quote: ROSS 42

Transportable mortar ... Machine gun "Kord" ... Previously, the task of the special forces was to conduct operations "without noise and dust" and without losses. What characteristics of the car will radically facilitate their implementation and assessment, I would like to learn from those involved in this specialty, and not from the statement of the author of the article:

Depending on the objectives of the operation, tasks are set, during the implementation of which the forces and means are determined: the type and quantity of weapons. If without "noise and dust" - do not take artillery.
For example, in reconnaissance, the methods are different, if observation, search is carried out, then without "noise and dust", the action of the WG is carried out as secretly as possible.
The result of the search may be an ambush or a raid, then the "artillery" will help to support the WG or cover during the withdrawal.
It would be nice to put into service and new BRDM, amphibians are also not bad.

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: Lynx2000

Depending on the objectives of the operation, tasks are set, in the implementation of which the forces and means are determined: the type and quantity of weapons.

Well, this is not quite accurately formulated, so in reality they choose "what can use "and here is the context" what perhaps use ", and how opportunity newly created cars (I'm talking about a galaxy of domestic MRAPs):
1) cannot swim
2) it is impossible to transport on VTA with VVPZ (Mi-8)
3) it is impossible to land from a military vehicle (IL-76) - this applies to large MRAPs
4) impossibility to install and use full-fledged DBMS
As a result, it turns out that the old technique is both cheaper and more convenient. For example, the same "BRDM-2", "BTR-80 \ 82", "UAZ", "Niva / pickup", "Ural", in their military niches are more convenient, which is clearly seen in purchases. In fact, all MRAPs are mainly used either as "military-militarized police", and / or where the BTR-80 \ 82 is not suitable because of the "auto-road mass-dimensional standard".

Personally, my opinion is that we do not need to chase either African or American fashion for MRAPs. We have our own factories and a huge scientific and industrial potential, and we have a huge pool of orders for "militarized wheeled vehicles" (do not confuse military and militarized, in this context they are different concepts). Therefore, I personally think that it is better to develop a special chassis from scratch, and use the same chassis for the police and for the Ministry of Emergencies and for the military and for civilians. In my opinion, new engines and a different layout are needed, where engines, propellers, tanks, etc. removed to the floor. For those who did not understand, it is very simplified, but clearly: we take the "BA Tiger" and shove the boxer engine from the BMD-4 between the wheels inside the chassis, move the cockpit (front seats) forward and get a large compartment for troops and / or equipment, as a result we get a massive military-civilian chassis of the unimogue type but in the amphibious-MRAP version.

[Lynx2000]

Quote: ProkletyiPirat

Well, this is not quite accurately formulated, so in reality they choose "what can use "and here is the context" what perhaps use ", and how opportunity newly created cars (I'm talking about a galaxy of domestic MRAPs):
1) cannot swim
2) it is impossible to transport on VTA with VVPZ (Mi-8)
3) it is impossible to land from a military vehicle (IL-76) - this applies to large MRAPs
4) impossibility to install and use full-fledged DBMS
As a result, it turns out that the old technique is both cheaper and more convenient. For example, the same "BRDM-2", "BTR-80 \ 82", "UAZ", "Niva / pickup", "Ural", in their military niches are more convenient, which is clearly seen in purchases. In fact, all MRAPs are mainly used either as "military-militarized police", and / or where the BTR-80 \ 82 is not suitable because of the "auto-road mass-dimensional standard".

A special version is discussed in the comments to this article. units, gave an example regarding military intelligence. In the bulk, the BTR-80/82 is used to deliver the group to the exit point, then nOgami.
UAZ-469, its descendants, for example, the UAZ "Bars" with a wide track and an extended base was conceived for the Airborne Forces and special forces units. Where is he now? In addition, tell me what kind of locks the stock UAZ has, except for the hard connection of the front axle h / w RK without a free differential.
Regarding the new BRDM, he mentioned that it would be nice to have in the units.
I don't even want to think about what will happen to modern Nivas after intensive military exploitation ...
Transporting military vehicles, landing from military vehicles - these are already large-scale amphibious military operations.
For spetsnaz or reconnaissance, for stealth and quick landing, it is better to airborne / disembark without equipment.
For special forces and intelligence units, the main factor is maneuverability, maneuverability, speed, stealth. There can be no universal combat vehicle for such actions. They are used from dog sleds, pack horses, ATVs, buggies, SUVs (exactly passable), to BA Tiger, armored personnel carriers.

Quote: ProkletyiPirat

Personally, my opinion is that we do not need to chase either African or American fashion for MRAPs. We have our own factories and a huge scientific and industrial potential, and we have a huge pool of orders for "militarized wheeled vehicles" (do not confuse military and militarized, in this context they are different concepts). Therefore, I personally think that it is better to develop a special chassis from scratch, and use the same chassis for the police and for the Ministry of Emergencies and for the military and for civilians. In my opinion, new engines and a different layout are needed, where engines, propellers, tanks, etc. removed to the floor. For those who did not understand, it is very simplified, but clearly: we take the "BA Tiger" and shove the boxer engine from the BMD-4 between the wheels inside the chassis, move the cockpit (front seats) forward and get a large compartment for troops and / or equipment, as a result we get a massive military-civilian chassis of the unimogue type but in the amphibious-MRAP version.

What prevented the use of the Tiger chassis? Unification: chassis from BTR-80, checkpoint and RK from Vepr and Vodnik, YaMZ engine, the ability to install an armored or conventional body.
There was already news about the presentation of the BRDM-4, ​​unfortunately I did not see the performance characteristics on the manufacturer's website.
Unimog's chassis is essentially special. equipment (self-propelled vehicle), tractor, truck (l / c 1,5 - 2 tons), but not a transport-combat vehicle.

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: Lynx2000

UAZ-469, its descendants, for example, the UAZ "Bars" with a wide track and an extended base was conceived for the Airborne Forces and special forces units. Where is he now?

You, as an example of my wrongness, gave an example of an attempt to use the UAZ outside of its military niche. It's like scolding the AK for not being an SVD.

Quote: Lynx2000

I don't even want to think about what will happen to modern Nivas after intensive military exploitation ...

Also a funny example with distortion of application areas, you can of course answer that "nothing will be thrown out or thrown out" but it will be holivar if in the context of the discussion there are no tactics and strategies of helicopter assault forces and ways to prevent unmasking by moving the landing point away from the LDP. And this is a separate topic altogether.

Quote: Lynx2000

Transportation of VTA, landing from VTA is already large-scale landing troop operations.

This is probably the eternal holivaro-srachik on the topic "Airborne Forces VS DShB".

Quote: Lynx2000

For spetsnaz or reconnaissance, for stealth and quick landing, it is better to airborne / disembark without equipment.
For special forces and intelligence units, the main factor is maneuverability, maneuverability, speed, stealth. There can be no universal combat vehicle for such actions. They are used from dog sleds, pack horses, ATVs, buggies, SUVs (exactly passable), to BA Tiger, armored personnel carriers.

And here you generally contradict yourself, at the beginning declaring that the technique is not needed, then that it is sometimes needed, and at the end, listing what exactly needs to be enumerated, "everything that is" (relatively speaking). At least you are wrong already in what you said in the first sentence, I above here and in the post above voiced an example about mi-8 and niva / pickups, well, or you can recall American chinooks and Humvees, or Chinese / European SLBBTs are the essence of this still does not change and rests on tactics and strategy.

[Lynx2000]

Quote: ProkletyiPirat

Quote: Lynx2000

For spetsnaz or reconnaissance, for stealth and quick landing, it is better to airborne / disembark without equipment.
For special forces and intelligence units, the main factor is maneuverability, maneuverability, speed, stealth. There can be no universal combat vehicle for such actions. They are used from dog sleds, pack horses, ATVs, buggies, SUVs (exactly passable), to BA Tiger, armored personnel carriers.

And here you generally contradict yourself, at the beginning declaring that the technique is not needed, then that it is sometimes needed, and at the end, listing what exactly needs to be enumerated, "everything that is" (relatively speaking). At least you are wrong already in what you said in the first sentence, I above here and in the post above voiced an example about mi-8 and niva / pickups, well, or you can recall American chinooks and Humvees, or Chinese / European SLBBTs are the essence of this still does not change and rests on tactics and strategy.

I did not understand this reasoning of yours at all. Regarding the need for technology, different, mentioned in the first comment. Did he write that the technique is not needed? On the contrary, unlike the main divisions of the army, for special. units must use equipment applicable to a specific task (in a mountainous area, in a flat wooded area, in winter conditions, in a swampy area or with many rivers and lakes).
For UAZ and Niva you wrote, I answered.

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: Lynx2000

For UAZ and Niva you wrote, I answered.

do not juggle, I did not write "For Oise and Niva" but about the shortcomings of MRAPs, about the "for" was the second part of the post, and it described a completely different type of machine.

[Lynx2000]

Your bias is constantly towards the use of military equipment as part of military units, we are talking about the use of equipment for special forces and intelligence units.
You specifically wrote about the use of UAZ and VAZ (Niva), re-read your comments yourself.
By pointing out that you should not copy the Western experience, you yourself cling to MRAP.

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: Lynx2000

What prevented the use of the Tiger chassis? Unification: chassis from BTR-80, checkpoint and RK from Vepr and Vodnik, YaMZ engine, the ability to install an armored or conventional body.

re-read my example again, in particular, take a drawing (3d-projection or diagram) of a tiger and move the front seats forward, put either additional troops and / or combat modules with BK \ AZ \ into the vacant space ... and then compare what you received with the armored personnel carrier -82 and BMP-1 \ 2 \ 3 and with the tiger itself, and make this comparison until you understand the phrase "layout advantage and the derived benefits from it in tactical and technical capabilities (TTV). "After this understanding comes, you will see the reason why this has not been implemented already now, and this reason will be in the mass-dimensional restrictions imposed by the" mass nodes ". Then before understanding the interconnection will be close, and then the essence I voiced will come in the desire to introduce new mass-dimensional form factors for the nodes in order to improve the TTV through a new layout.

Quote: Lynx2000

Unimog's chassis is essentially special. technique

So, yes, special equipment, that's what we are talking about, because in fact, BA and MRAPs are not only infantry transports but also special equipment, for example, look at the modifications of escort vehicles from the Strategic Missile Forces, or American-European MRAPs with a lot systems for finding mines, determining the sectors of fire, conducting direct and indirect reconnaissance, and various modifications of cars from the riot police, etc. I just voiced a way to translate this from the states "ersatz", "incomplete work", "shitty, but it works" into the state "that's so convenient, massively, cheap and affordable."

[Lynx2000]

Quote: ProkletyiPirat

re-read my example again, in particular, take a drawing (3d-projection or diagram) of a tiger and move the front seats forward, put either additional troops and / or combat modules with BK \ AZ \ into the vacant space ... and then compare what you received with the armored personnel carrier -82 and BMP-1 \ 2 \ 3 and with the tiger itself, and make this comparison until you understand the phrase "layout advantage and the derived benefits from it in tactical and technical capabilities (TTV). "After this understanding comes, you will see the reason why this has not been implemented already now, and this reason will be in the mass-dimensional restrictions imposed by the" mass nodes ". Then before understanding the interconnection will be close, and then the essence I voiced will come in the desire to introduce new mass-dimensional form factors for the nodes in order to improve the TTV through a new layout.

Based on your reasoning, changing the layout of the Tiger is impossible. Once again, I remind you about the new BRDM.

Quote: ProkletyiPirat

So, yes, special equipment, that's what we are talking about, because in fact, BA and MRAPs are not only infantry transports but also special equipment, for example, look at the modifications of escort vehicles from the Strategic Missile Forces, or American-European MRAPs with a lot systems for finding mines, determining the sectors of fire, conducting direct and indirect reconnaissance, and various modifications of cars from the riot police, etc. I just voiced a way to translate this from the states "ersatz", "incomplete work", "shitty, but it works" into the state "that's so convenient, massively, cheap and affordable."

Here you have not opened the news for me.
In addition to Unimogov and Sheer Pukhov, with military transport equipment for military purposes, he has long encountered a / m and special equipment from the army used in the national economy, he also saw trucks from Oshkoshi, Mana, Isuzu

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: Lynx2000

Based on your reasoning, changing the layout of the Tiger is impossible. Once again, I remind you about the new BRDM.

I highlighted it in bold earlier, and I repeat again "layout advantage", if you try to achieve the same layout advantages, but at the same time using only ready-made units from the tiger, then your TTV will turn out to be more truncated due to the height of the vehicle, a higher center of mass, impaired habitability of the troop compartment, and / or more difficult repairs For example, how will you change the spark plugs in the KShM based on your chassis option? negatives, your chassis option will have a wagon and a small cart.

[Lynx2000]

Units and assemblies of the Tiger (I repeat to you again) - the engine YMZ, the checkpoint and the RK from the Vepr and Vodnik, torsion bars and final drives of the Arzamas plant (BTR-80). They do not affect the layout of the equipment, but the type of body (load-bearing or on the frame structure).
Unification does not consist in reworking the Tiger body (two-volume body), but in creating a new car - a new body.

Quote: ProkletyiPirat

For example, how will you change the spark plugs in the KShM based on your chassis option? You will end up with crap because of the upper location of the engine covers, in my chassis version this process is organized through special hatches in the sides located between the wheels. And such negatives your chassis option will have a wagon and a small cart.

This is not my case, but your proposal for the layout, you and serve.
What is KShM? Crank mechanism or command and staff vehicle?
What are the top engine covers? Mean when the engine is located under the floor of the troop compartment? Do you think it is convenient to service the engine in mud, through special hatches? Have you ever had a case when in the mud in a deep rut (above the hub) a ball joint pin on an SUV knocked out of the lever? In this case, at least access to the engine compartment through the hood from above without dirt. Having opened the hatches (at the level of the final drives, below the waterline) of the car, which, according to your version, should still be amphibious in the mud, we will get problems with service (not in the dry box of the service station).

[Alexfly]

Most likely this is a patrol vehicle, so to speak, for reconnaissance and patrolling purposes. A mortar could be made following the example of SRAMS or the like. Now, after all, the main thing is shot and dumped ..

[jonht]

You shouldn't think so, here it seems to me a more correct approach to the car, since it is made for reconnaissance, and not for fire support. The open tower makes it possible, without leaving the car, to throw a grenade, smoke bombs or use MANPADS, albeit at limited angles, but still protected by armor. Again, use remote observation devices (not only binoculars). Yes, and when dumping aboard, there will be an additional exit from the car, and for reconnaissance and this is not a little important moment (quickly leaving the wrecked car).

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: jonht

as it is done for intelligence, not for fire support

Given the fact that the remote control machine gun modules are quite compact, this bulky turret is useless at all.

Quote: jonht

The open tower makes it possible, without leaving the car, to throw a grenade, smoke bombs or use MANPADS, albeit at limited angles, but still protected by armor

a sunroof gives you even more options for all this. So the combination of a machine gun module and a wide sunroof is ideal for intelligence cars. As for the turret - well, what kind of tower it is, it's a super-budget solution for the National Guard, it seems to me.

[jonht]

There is not much space on the roof for the mutual placement of two "devices", and the module will partially interfere and overlap the sectors of the soldier in the hatch. But this is my vision, perhaps your option would be more practical if properly implemented.

[Old tanker]

a sunroof gives you even more options for all this.

Poking your head out of the hatch into it is fashionable to get a bullet. And getting out on half of the hull for shooting or throwing a grenade is generally suicide. And under the protection of an armored box, all this becomes possible.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

Sticking your head out of the hatch into it is fashionable to get a bullet

DBM generally allows you to fire because of the main armor.

Quote: Old Tankman

And under the protection of an armored box, all this becomes possible.

Strain your imagination, in this crevice booth (hello to ricochets at the machine gunner) what is the scope for a grenade, what is the launch of MANPADS?

[Old tanker]

Oh, so it's all just in your imagination ...
Ordinary such a real, not imaginary, scope.
And where did I say the passage of MANPADS?
Launching MANPADS under fire is a very perverse imagination.
You will decide in your imagination whether you need a DUM and a hatch with wider possibilities, or only a DUM without possibilities.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tanker

Are you imagining everything?
Ordinary scope.

Yes? And the fact that the breech end of the machine gun with ammunition inside the turret is it gives space, or slightly hinders the movement?

Quote: Old Tankman

And where did I say the passage of MANPADS?
Launching MANPADS under fire is a very perverse imagination.

However, you got into the comments, so you would have bothered to read:

Quote: jonht

throw a grenade, smoke bombs or use MANPADS, albeit at limited angles

Quote: Old Tankman

You will decide in your imagination, you will have a DUM and a hatch with wider possibilities

I have already decided:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So the combination of a machine gun module and a wide sunroof is ideal for intelligence cars.

Look in the search for "machine gun remote modules" and estimate their size and installation location.

[Old tanker]

What a wide flight of imagination! The breech of a machine gun is the size of the breech of a cannon! Yes, such that the arrow does not turn around and turn around! And also b / c sticks out. I can't even imagine that.
I got into the comments with specific points. I don’t need to invent someone else’s in my running imagination. And yes, that's why they are comments, so that anyone can get into them. It’s strange that your imagination got so excited.
Nothing is perfect
And in your imagination there is no such situation as a short fight. When the enemy is in the dead zone of the DUM, but can he shoot through the head protruding from the open hatch?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

What a wide flight of imagination! The breech of a machine gun is the size of the breech of a cannon!

Sorry, but put on your glasses or wipe your eyes, the cannon is in the tower, and the machine gun is in the TOWER, you know different sizes, believe me if you don't see.

Quote: Old Tankman

When the enemy is in the dead zone of the DUM, but can he shoot through the head protruding from the open hatch?

Those. does the turret have a dead zone or what? Your lack of imagination is already frankly growing into blindfoldness. Here's a photo, maybe you can see what.

[Old tanker]

the cannon is in the tower, and the machine gun is in the TOWER, you know the dimensions are different

Oh, the words are not of a boy, but of a husband! Finally, your imagination has allowed you to realize that the rear of the receiver of a machine gun, and not the breech (this is complete incompetence, because the breech is part of the barrel, not the receiver) is much smaller than the breech of a cannon. Therefore, the space in the turret allows the machine gunner to work comfortably.
Imagine, a turret does have a dead zone! But under the cover of armored shields on the hatches, it is relatively safe to throw a grenade into it.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

that the rear of the receiver of the machine gun, and not the breech (this is a complete incompetence

You can’t argue about the case, get to the bottom of the words, right? Well, how am I worse? So I wrote "breech", not "breech" and these are different things, but not for you.

Quote: Old Tankman

because the breech is part of the barrel, not the receiver) is much smaller than the breech of a cannon. Therefore, the space in the turret allows the machine gunner to work comfortably.

And the turrets in the turret with a cannon are also quite enough, because the dimensions of the turret, like the gun, are LARGER than that of the turret, do you understand what dimensions are?

Quote: Old Tankman

Imagine, a turret does have a dead zone!

Come on, it's not me who wrote it, but someone else

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Those. does the turret have a dead zone or what?

The full impression is that you completely filled your eyes.

Quote: Old Tankman

But under the cover of armored shields on the hatches, it is relatively safe to throw a grenade into it.

I’m not that I’m doubting your military competence, I’m just doubting your common sense. From an armored hull with a wide hatch, it is equally easy to throw a grenade without bumping your elbows on a machine gun, ammunition rack and turret walls.

Are you throwing a lot here? Thrower ...

[Old tanker]

You can’t argue about the case, get to the bottom of the words, right? Well, how am I worse? So I wrote "breech", not "breech" and these are different things, but not for you.

Laughing out loud! The breech and the breech are one and the same!
Teach materiel.
Since with you in business, if you only have imagination about business.
Imagine, the sizes of objects, they are not abstract, but have a certain ratio to each other. In order not to strain your imagination, I advise you to get off the couch, sit in the turret of the tank and understand how the tankers are COMPLETELY. And then into the BMP turret and then you will feel a real, not an imaginary difference. In the ratio of the size of the items inside the tower to the reserved space.

From an armored hull with a wide hatch, it is equally easy to throw a grenade without bumping your elbows on a machine gun, ammunition rack and turret walls

And your imagination does not tell you that the hatch cover must still be opened before you get out of it and throw something? And the wider and larger the hatch, the more you have to lean out to open the lid. That is, to be exposed to enemy fire. But under the cover of armored shields, this can be done more safely.

Are you throwing a lot here? Thrower ...

Oh, yes, here at least get out of the way of a gsnat! Places in abundance. Even in armor and full gear. Unless, of course, you are a fighter, and not a belly lying on the couch.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

Laughing out loud! The breech and the breech are one and the same!
Teach materiel.

Open your eyes: quote = Vladimir_2U] machine gun breech [/ quote Where is the trunk here? The bolt box of the machine gun, the body of the machine gun, the breech of the machine gun, if you still pretend you don't understand.

Quote: Old Tankman

In order not to strain your imagination, I advise you to get off the couch, sit in the turret of the tank and understand how the tankers are COMPLETELY. And then into the BMP turret and then you will feel a real, not an imaginary difference. In the ratio of the size of the items inside the tower to the reserved space.

Do you want to say that it is impossible for tankers to work in the tower ?! Direct, command, and even charge ?! They have less space there than in the turret for a machine gunner?

Quote: Old Tanker

Therefore, the space in the turret allows the machine gunner to work comfortably.

You just spit on the facts.

Quote: Old Tankman

And your imagination does not tell you that the hatch cover must still be opened before you get out of it and throw something? And the wider and larger the hatch, the more you have to lean out to open the lid.

Hand face! Not only are there double-leaf hatch covers that can be closed from the sides, but you can also keep them open, imagine this, oh yes, where are you, and where is the imagination.

Quote: Old Tankman

Oh, yes, here at least get out of the way of a gsnat! Places in abundance. Even in armor and full gear. Unless, of course, you are a fighter, and not a belly lying on the couch.

Well, try to do this without leaning out and not getting a bullet, or even a grenade, because you have painted such horrors: The situation is not for a battle in the city, but for getting into an ambush or a sudden enemy raid while in an observation position.

[Old tanker]

quote = Vladimir_2U] machine gun breech [/ quote Where is the barrel here?

This is ridiculous! The machine gun has no breech! Since this is part of the trunk. It's like saying the cylinder of a car, not the engine.
Teach materiel.

Do you want to say that it is impossible for tankers to work in the tower ?! Direct, command, and even charge ?! They have less space there than in the turret for a machine gunner?

This is exactly the case on our tanks with AZ / MZ. You can only direct and command and then sandwiched between the fence of the gun and the side of the tower. But it is difficult to charge. The machine gun can only be moved to the side of the commander's observation device, and the cannon, by removing the fence. So that the turret is much more spacious.
Why do you think double-leaf hatch covers are used much less frequently than single-leaf hatch covers? Does your imagination tell you? Everything is simple, because it is more convenient and faster to open and lock a single-leaf valve. Manhole covers open in anticipation of battle and keeping them in battle is fraught with danger. Something can fly in, rip off the stopper, and catching the flapping cover is traumatic.
But when throwing a grenade from an unprotected hatch, they will have to stick out. And from this turret there is only an arm and a head.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

This is ridiculous! The machine gun has no breech! Since this is part of the trunk. It's like saying the cylinder of a car, not the engine.
Teach materiel.

You are foolishly working successfully, but in the wrong place:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The bolt box of the machine gun, the body of the machine gun, the breech of the machine gun, if you still pretend you don't understand.

Quote: Old Tankman

This is exactly the case on our tanks with AZ / MZ.

Don't you know a single tank without AZ?

You can only direct and command and then sandwiched between the fence of the gun and the side of the tower.

What, right squeezed, as much as a shoulder can not be led? Let's not lie.

Quote: Old Tankman

Why do you think double-leaf hatch covers are used much less frequently than single-leaf hatch covers?

Here's the insanely rare double-leaf hatch covers!

And here's what I'm writing about:

Here, not a clumsy turret, but a remote control module, and even the ability to throw grenades from a hatch behind, even launch MANPADS, or even fire back from two more machine guns.

[Old tanker]

The bolt box of the machine gun, the body of the machine gun, the breech of the machine gun, if you still pretend you don't understand.

You should go to the gunsmiths constructors ...
But they will not take it, people have to make people laugh in the circus.

Don't you know a single tank without AZ?

In them, the commander also sits on the gunner's shoulders. In addition to being squeezed from the sides. The charger is also not particularly comme il faut. That's where, as you put it, quite, so it is in the PT-76!

What, right squeezed, as much as a shoulder can not be led? Let's not lie.

Exactly. Especially in winter tankers. Those who are more sophisticated do not wear a jacket from him at all during shooting. And on the T-80 (except for U / UD / BVM), the GTN control unit also rests on the right thigh and knee.

Something not enough pictures of cars with double-leaf hatch covers threw
With single-leaf, much more

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tanker

You should go to the gunsmiths constructors ...
But they will not take it, people have to make people laugh in the circus.

Well, well, if you still pretend not to understand, then that part of the machine gun, which is located between the barrel and the machine gunner.

[/ Center]

Quote: Old Tanker

Exactly. Especially in winter tankers. Those who are more sophisticated do not wear a jacket from him at all during shooting.

Now tell me: does it interfere with their combat work? Can't they use instruments and controls? They can, so a machine gunner in a turret can conduct his combat work, risking a bullet, if not in the top of the head, then ricocheting into huge cracks. And already "throwing a grenade" at a distance of more than 10-15 m. He will be forced to stick out even further and will definitely get his own.

Quote: Old Tankman

Something not enough pictures of cars with double-leaf hatch covers threw

To begin with, there is a "Tiger" in the photo - you know what I mean?

[Center]

But if it's not enough for you, then the Hummer and the Tiger are on top, cars that are either produced or will be produced in marketable quantities.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Nice photo, by the way. The hinged roof is visible behind the machine gunner. An open turret could and would be a normal solution if it were supplemented with electric drives and a sight with the ability to fire from inside the vehicle. But the presence of drives is not mentioned.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Nice photo, by the way. The hinged roof is visible behind the machine gunner.

This is a standard hatch cover, it also does not add space. )))

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

An open turret could and would be a normal solution if it were supplemented with electric drives and a sight with the ability to fire from inside the vehicle.

So this DUBM and it turns out, only with the possibility of duplication, is too cumbersome and cumbersome, as for me. Plus, or rather minus, only one firing point.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The possibility of duplication is good, you can both observe and open fire immediately, or first go down under the armor. If anything, then it is possible to reload relatively safely, and distort the jammed machine gun. Or if the sight is damaged by shrapnel, then you can lean out and fire in manual mode.
And, I meant the photo of the Arem module that you posted, you can see a folding fabric roof there. And the Amers module has a box in the back that looks like an electric drive for horizontal guidance.
Let's just say that the description is too sparse to draw conclusions from.

[Old tanker]

I absolutely agree with you. But I have not seen such a solution.

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

An open tower allows the enemy to throw a Molotov cocktail into the hatch in a city battle. Therefore, the method of closing the tower had to be provided. And not just, namely, with protection against the ingress of a bottle with flammable agents. I didn’t want our vehicles to be burnt like BT-26 tanks in Spain. I offer a cone-type lid with a rubberized soft top.

[Old tanker]

This is a reconnaissance vehicle, what is the battle in the city ?!

I offer a cone-type lid with a rubberized soft top.

And paint this umbrella with butterflies

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

This is a reconnaissance vehicle, what is the battle in the city ?!

Yes, but what is surprise, where is the sequence?

Quote: Old Tankman

Poking your head out of the hatch into it is fashionable to get a bullet. And getting out on half of the hull for shooting or throwing a grenade is generally suicide

Quote: Old Tankman

And in your imagination there is no such situation as a short fight. When the enemy is in the DUM dead zone,

What are you giving such introductory information for a reconnaissance vehicle, typical for a battle in a city?

[Old tanker]

What's the sequence? Get out of your dream world.
The situation is not for a battle in the city, but for getting into an ambush or a sudden enemy raid while in an observation position. Or does your imagination continue to fight in the city does not work?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

to get into an ambush or surprise enemy raid while in an observation position.

You are really raving about what a light armored car can do in this situation, other than trying to gasp. And I will once again remind you about your fantasies:

Quote: Old Tankman

Quote: Old Tanker
Poking your head out of the hatch into it is fashionable to get a bullet. And getting out on half of the hull for shooting or throwing a grenade is generally suicide
Quote: Old Tanker
And in your imagination there is no such situation as a short fight. When the enemy is in the DUM dead zone,

And leaning out of the hull and throwing grenades and short-term combat for reconnaissance is generally a failure. But you wander on.

[Old tanker]

You are really raving about what a light armored car can do in this situation, other than trying to gasp. And I will once again remind you about your fantasies:

You can and should give on gases. But this is not always the case. And your imagination does not admit that the Banderlog who attacked the reconnaissance group can only have firing weapons? Imagine, this happens and it is not uncommon.

And leaning out of the hull and throwing grenades and short-term combat for reconnaissance is generally a failure. But you wander on.

Of course a failure, and not only in your imagination but also in real life.
And unfortunately, there are such failures in war. And you have to fight in unfavorable conditions for you. Or in your imagination, if the reconnaissance group was ambushed or suddenly attacked, then all the legs up - we surrender?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

And your imagination does not admit that the Banderlog who attacked the reconnaissance group can only have firing weapons?

And what is not a slingshot?

Quote: Old Tankman

And unfortunately, there are such failures in war. And you have to fight in unfavorable conditions for you. Or in your imagination, if the reconnaissance group was ambushed or suddenly attacked, then all the legs up - we surrender?

You don't have to attribute your fantasies to me, but it is easier to reflect the "sudden raid" from several points and here the DBM and the wide hatch are much preferable to the turret alone.

[Old tanker]

Soap and douche, start over!
The enemy can be in the DUM dead zone. Therefore, you have to use grenades. It is safer to throw grenades under the cover of an armored shield, and not from an open hatch.

And what is not a slingshot?

This happens in real life, and not just in your imagination. But more often they just throw stones)))

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

It is safer to throw grenades under the cover of an armored shield, and not from an open hatch.

Here, take a stone and throw it at a distance of 10-15 meters (dead zone) and on what trajectory you will throw it and what prevents it from being thrown because of the armor of the body. You seem to have not thrown stones, let alone grenades.

[Old tanker]

During my long service, I pounced on grenades from a tank and from a trench, and I find it, and from behind cover. Including in a combat situation. So throw the stones yourself. But before that, climb into an iron box with limited visibility and ask someone to move around you. It is desirable from the stern side, where there is no visibility in this car from the exhibition. And try to guess, without leaning out of the hatch, where to throw the pebble. And if the enemy stupidly surrounded you and naturally he is not in full growth? And behind the folds of the terrain and objects on it hides. This is where your imagination will play out, along which trajectory and where to throw stones.
By the way, F-1 weighs 600 grams, and RGD-5 - 310. So imagine in advance what kind of stones to pick for yourself, with what force and along what trajectory to throw each one.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

But before that, climb into an iron box with limited visibility and ask someone to move around you. It is desirable from the stern side, where there is no visibility in this car from the exhibition.

And where did you see unlimited visibility in the turret, huh? Here in the case, the review is almost circular.

Quote: Old Tankman

So imagine in advance what kind of stones to pick for yourself, with what force and along what trajectory to throw each one.

And what is it, you are already talking about the dead zone, which you so frightened, forgot, so I will remind you of 10-15 meters.

[Old tanker]

And where did you see unlimited visibility in the turret, huh? Here in the case, the review is almost circular.

Oh, yoshkin cat! Didn't know that in your imagination the turret wouldn't turn The fact of the matter is that almost ...

And what is it, you are already talking about the dead zone, which you so frightened, forgot, so I will remind you of 10-15 meters.

Let it be known to you that when throwing a grenade for accuracy at different distances, you need to apply different efforts and also take into account the weight of the grenade.
I see it really is time for you to get up off the couch and go and leave the stones.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Old Tankman

Oh, yoshkin cat! I didn’t know that the turret wouldn’t turn in your imagination laughing The fact of the matter is that almost ...

It's a pity that you prefer to play the fool, instead of thinking. There is one person in the turret, a maximum of three glass blocks, this is even if there is one behind the turret, the field of view of the turret forward and downward is very limited, at least how you twist it. In the body of these glass blocks there are more than a dofig in all directions.

Quote: Old Tankman

Let it be known to you that when throwing a grenade for accuracy at different distances, you need to apply different efforts and also take into account the weight of the grenade.

Why did you start to ignore the concept of "dead zone"? And why did they suddenly remember about "throwing for accuracy"? The situation you invented is not a city battle, you don't need to put a grenade in the window 50 meters, moreover, you even refused to use grenades for a hypothetical attacker, only a rifleman was given to them.

Quote: Old Tanker

And your imagination does not admit that the Banderlog who attacked the reconnaissance group can only have firing weapons?

For the defense of an armored object, it is enough not to throw a grenade outside the armor, but to push it out! This is a classic!

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

The main thing is that the thrown object bounces off it. And I allow to draw everything up to a bare ass instead of a head.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I really liked the photo on top of the amers' turret, where you can see, in addition to the folding roof, a box behind it, very similar to an electric drive. If there is both an electric drive and the ability to lean out, then the idea does not look so bad, and without drives it is definitely the last century.

[Old tanker]

It is high time to think about the unification of armored vehicles. In my opinion, the right decision would be to make the already well-developed Typhoon-VDV as the base medium armored vehicle.

[Blackgrifon]

Most likely it will not work and there is a lot of reason. So, the Gas Group also wants to "eat" (and the workers get salary) and they have a spent Tiger and its development as an Athlete. The Ghaz Urals were thrown out of the typhoon program, but they are unlikely to be moved out of the niche of light armored vehicles. And the production capacity of Gas is much higher than that of Remdiesel.

Here, as an option, one could think of a single machine that could be produced simultaneously in Arzamas, and in N. Chelny, and in Miass, since there are examples of this approach, including in capitalist society (the United States with their Shermans, Wilis, etc.) is.

[Old tanker]

Tiger and its development The athlete of the lighter class. And the military-industrial complex will get a piece. But it feeds mainly on the release of armored personnel carriers.
And the military-industrial complex is not included in the GAZ group. This is a subsidiary. Here is an excerpt from the band's official website.

In August 2006, the enterprises of the GAZ Group specializing in the production of military equipment (OJSC Arzamas Machine-Building Plant, Zavod Korpus in the city of Vyksa and OJSC Barnaultransmash) were separated into an independent enterprise, LLC Military Industrial Company, with the aim of to ensure the division of the automotive business of Russian Machines into public (GAZ Group) and non-public (Military Industrial Company) assets. Subsequently, OJSC "Barnaultransmash" was again incorporated into the GAZ Group

since there are examples of this approach, including in capitalist society (the United States with its Shermans, Willis, etc.)

We ourselves have plenty of such examples. And not only during the war. T-55 was produced in Kharkov, Tagil and Omsk.

[Blackgrifon]

Quote: Old Tankman

And the military-industrial complex is not included in the GAZ group. This is a subsidiary. Here is an excerpt from the band's official website.

Yes you are right. In the old fashioned way, I call them Ural gas.

Quote: Old Tankman

We ourselves have plenty of such examples. And not only during the war. T-55 was produced in Kharkov, Tagil and Omsk.

So I gave an example that this is possible under capitalism, and under socialism, the plan itself ordered :)

Quote: Old Tankman

Tiger and its development Lighter athlete

Yes, but not for the Athlete - it weighs 9 tons, and Typhoon-VDV 11. In fact, the difference is small. Of course, I could be wrong, but as a light traveling ba, something like an Arrow with its 5 tons will do, but the average ba is just the weight category of the Athlete and Typhoon-Airborne Forces.
There is also the question of price to be taken into account - Remdiesel cars are not very cheap.

[Old tanker]

At Army-2021, the military-industrial complex presented a new floating BRM to replace the old BRDM-2. Apparently they realized that "Typhoon-VDV" defeated their "Athlete". Maybe something will grow together with her. Nobody has presented any amphibious armored vehicles yet.

[Blackgrifon]

Quote: Old Tankman

Apparently they realized that Typhoon-VDV defeated their Athlete.

I disagree with you. The athlete was ordered by the Ministry of Defense and he can transport from half to a whole squad and / or equipment and weapons. So, most likely, the Ministry of Defense will purchase both the T-Airborne Forces and the Athlete.
IMHO, Typhoon-VDV is rather a direct competitor to the KAMAZ Typhoon 4x4. But the "BRDM-4" is a vehicle exclusively for reconnaissance and will not accommodate more than a crew of 3-4 people.

[Old tanker]

So most likely the Ministry of Defense will purchase both the T-Airborne Forces and the Athlete.

Wait and see. The order of the Ministry of Defense is not a guarantee of acceptance into service. And acceptance into service is not a guarantee of mass production. The same BTR-90 is an example of this.

But the "BRDM-4" is a vehicle exclusively for reconnaissance and will not accommodate more than a crew of 3-4 people.

It is for military reconnaissance of combined arms units. And this niche is not occupied by anyone and we can say in failure. So this business in the military-industrial complex can and will work out.

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

Unification is the next step in the specification. Is always.

[Peter is not the first]

In them, he will be able to occupy the niche of a light or medium armored reconnaissance vehicle with some strike potential.

If this armored car is positioned as a reconnaissance vehicle, then it is better to equip it with a reconnaissance UAV instead of a mortar.

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

Why instead of? Reinforce with Stiletto. After all, the ability to fool around is secretly a favorite game of scouts.

[riwas]

Here's an interesting machine.
The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation will receive a new electric reconnaissance vehicle "Era", built by the military innovative Technopolis of the same name.
The power plant consists of two electric motors on both axles. In total, they give out almost 33 horsepower. Thanks to a weight of 450 kilograms, this power is enough to reach a maximum speed of 80 kilometers per hour. The capacity of the lithium-ion battery is 80 A * h. The power reserve does not exceed 120 kilometers.
https://insideevs.ru/news/528870/russianarmedforces-will-receive-reconnaissance-ev/

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And when the electricity ends, will we deliver it in cans or boxes?

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

Good as a drone for delivering cargo and transport.

[APASUS]

Here a soldier should not stick out of the hatch, this is already yesterday. When the camera is in any iron now, why take risks

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

An attempt to save on managed modules looks like a penguin, but such are our decisions to reduce the price by a willful reception. Someone christened this technique the Stool.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The capacity of an armored car for special forces is small, only 5 people. It looks like an attempt to introduce a simplified version of the Gorse self-propelled mortar for the poor, without a turret, without automated mortar drives and, accordingly, without the possibility of direct fire. The only good thing about the car is that it is essentially ready, and the Drok is still being tested.

[Old tanker]

This car has nothing in common with the Drok. The mortar is here as an option. By the way, "Pennant" FSBeshny uses mortars from the ground, transporting them in cars. It is quite possible that this inspired this option. Instead of a mortar, you can install mounts for an ATGM or a container with a UAV.
5 people - just a standard group in special forces units.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I don’t know about the number of groups in the special forces, but it looks like there are only five people here, including the driver and the machine gunner.

[Old tanker]

And no more.

[Blackgrifon]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

The capacity of an armored car for special forces is small, only 5 people. It looks like an attempt to introduce a simplified version of the Gorse self-propelled mortar for the poor, without a tower,

It is quite possible to go the way the Yankees did for their light infantry - 2 vehicles per squad.
By the way, the Tiger-M in one of the main modifications carries 6 people + belongings. Moreover, the manufacturer's statements "for special forces" do not mean anything yet - if the car goes into production, then it will be used by airborne troops, mountain riflemen, and reconnaissance officers. SV units can be given.

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

5 people is a lot and not a little.

[Blackgrifon]

An interesting version of the car turned out. In the 5th local version, we get the opportunity to transport a large amount of cargo simultaneously with a group of fighters.

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

Masha turned out, You weren't expecting us? And we come to you. "

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Since the description of the machine-gun turret is very sparse, I will try to formulate it so that I would like to see it, although it is possible that something is already there or is in the plans.
There should be a folding roof somewhere in the back, like the one used on convertibles or in the form of the one that is visible folded on the American HMMWV. For protection from rain and water penetration into the machine, and from the sun.
There should be electric drives, something in the form of a geared motor for horizontal guidance and some kind of vertical drive, it is possible that it is visible on the right in the photo.
As an addition, in a modular form, I would like to see the possibility of installing inside the machine and a module for remote control and the accompanying SOU.

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

I will support. Fully.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

After all, hatches can also be made electrified with rotation from an electric drive.

[Vk engineer]

Typhoon K-4386 ZA-SPN with Israeli composite armor is a pitiful resemblance to the American OSHKOSH, and even 2 times heavier.
At the expense of orders from the Ministry of Defense, Remdizel has a lot of money, therefore he copies the equipment of the Americos and other countries, but is unable to create something advanced and promising.

Yes, and the generals following the results of Syria and Karabakh (as in the 90s after Chechnya) again did not delve into the new features of the conduct of hostilities "on the ground" - in future military conflicts, in connection with which the Armed Forces do not have a long-term vision of tactical combat vehicles.
That is why there are so few compact and mobile combat units in the Ground Forces (we are still “stocked up” with bulky armored vehicles and outdated hulks of the Boomerang and Kurganets type).

Even in today's Afghanistan, the number of such mobile combat units is tens of thousands.

[Oleg Timofeev_5]

And Boomerang and Kurganets are completely different. But the attempt to throw mud is defended.