For special forces and for pilots. New submachine gun PPK-20

PPK-20 submachine gun of the first version at Army-2020

One of the most interesting novelties of the Army-2021 forum was the new version of the PPK-20 submachine gun presented by the Kalashnikov concern. Unlike other models in its class, this product is designed in the interests of the aerospace forces. The submachine gun is optimized for use in the equipment of military pilots and should provide their self-defense in emergency situations.

By order of the Ministry of Defense

The development of a promising submachine gun for the armed forces began several years ago and was carried out within the framework of the Vityaz-MO ROC. The purpose of the work was to create an automatic weapons for a pistol cartridge for use in various structures of the army. Accordingly, it was required to provide high fire performance with limited dimensions and weight.

The first reports on the results of the ROC in the open press refer to the last year. So, in July, the Kalashnikov concern announced the successful completion of state tests. The interdepartmental commission recognized the product as meeting the customer's requirements and suitable for mass production. It was recommended to assign the name of the new development "Kalashnikov submachine gun mod. 2020 "- in memory of the designer V.M. Kalashnikov, who laid the foundations for a modern line of such weapons.

Updated version of the PPK-20

In August last year, the experienced PPK-20, along with the previous family products, was demonstrated at the Army-2020 exhibition. Later, in October, the Kalashnikov concern published an advertising video in which the weapon was shown from different angles, as well as some of its tactical and technical characteristics.

On the eve of the opening of the Army-2021 forum, the Kalashnikov concern announced the appearance of a new modification of the PPK-20. It was developed in the interests of the aerospace forces and is intended to be included in the portable emergency reserve of pilots. Now this version of the weapon, supplemented by several auxiliary devices, is being tested in the Aerospace Forces.

The updated submachine gun entered the Kalashnikov exposition at the forum and attracted the attention of visitors. The trials of this product are reportedly nearing the end. In the near future, an order is expected for the serial production of new PPK-20 in various modifications for transfer to the armed forces.

Building on existing

PPK-20 was developed on the basis of the Vityaz-SN submachine gun, which appeared in the middle of the 9s. The latter was an automatic weapon chambered for the 19xXNUMX mm Parabellum pistol cartridge, built using the technical and ergonomic solutions of the AK assault rifles. "Vityaz-SN" was adopted by the special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, FSB and FSO. Over a decade and a half of operation, it has shown itself to be a reliable and effective weapon that meets the assigned tasks.

It is reported that during the development of the PPK-20, the basic principles of operation and most of the available parts were retained. At the same time, the design was revised taking into account the requirements of the Aerospace Forces and the specifics of the intended use in combat aviation... First of all, this affected the ergonomics of the sample, and also influenced the composition of additional devices.

Retained receiver, automatic with a free breechblock, trigger firing mechanism and other elements. At the same time, their design has been improved taking into account the operating experience of previous submachine guns. The characteristics remained the same. Rate of fire - 800 rounds / min. When using the 7N21 cartridge, an initial bullet speed of 470 m / s and penetration of a 3A class bulletproof vest are provided.

PPK-20 with a new folding stock

Modern solutions

PPK-20 in its configuration last year externally significantly differed from the Vityaz-SN. The new version of the weapon for the Aerospace Forces also received a number of components that change its exterior and affect the ease of use.

One of the main requirements of the Aerospace Forces concerned the maximum reduction in the size of the weapon. In this regard, the submachine gun received a telescopic butt, folded by turning forward and to the right. When folded, the PPK-20 with a standard muzzle device has a length of only 410 mm. Unladen weight of the product, without ammunition, scope, etc. - 2,5 kg.

USM both PPK-20 retained the long flag of the fuse-translator of fire, characteristic of the AK. In the new modification, it was supplemented with small levers on the same axis, located on both sides of the weapon. This allows you to engage the safety or select the fire mode without removing the leading hand from the handle.

The weapon received a new forend with strips and slots for mounting the necessary devices. “Last year's” PPK-20 has a bar only at the bottom, the new one - at the top and bottom. A similar bar is provided on the receiver cover. Mechanical sights are preserved in the front and rear of the forend and cover.

Controls: the standard translator is supplemented with a new lever

The PPK-20 kit includes a silent firing device. If necessary, it is installed directly on the flame arrester using a bayonet connection. This operation takes minimal time, but provides a dramatic reduction in noise and flash.

In the version for videoconferencing, the submachine gun is equipped with a compact carrying bag. It fits the folded PPK-20, PBS, four stores and a set of maintenance tools. The closed bag is small and can be placed in the NAZ ejection seat. Accordingly, after the ejection, the pilot has at his disposal a sufficiently powerful and effective weapon, suitable for self-defense while awaiting help.

For a wide range of customers

The previously tested version of the PPK-20 submachine gun was created by order of the Ministry of Defense and can now enter service with the army. It is probably intended for the Special Operations Forces or other structures. Indeed, being a modern and improved version of the older Vityaz-SN, the PPK-20 is of great interest specifically for special forces. In doing so, they can choose weapons in the 2020 or 2021 configuration.

Additional box of the translator-fuse on the port side

The new version of the PPK-20, presented at the current exhibition, is intended for use in the VKS. Its implementation in combat units will lead to obvious positive consequences. Now, during combat missions, pilots have to take with them PM or APS pistols, which are not distinguished by high combat effectiveness. PPK-20 has higher characteristics and seriously increases the chances of fighting off the enemy.

PPK-20 in both versions can also be brought to the international market. The attention of potential customers will be attracted by the use of one of the most common cartridges and compatibility with a wide range of accessories. At the same time, a favorable combination of characteristics and cost will become an important competitive advantage.

Based on the results of modernization

Thus, in recent years, the Kalashnikov concern has been able to improve the already good Vityaz-SN submachine gun and create a successful weapon that meets current requirements. Last year, the basic version of the new PPK-20 passed all tests, and now its modified modification for the Aerospace Forces is being tested.

Apparently, all new tests will be completed in the very near future with positive results, as a result of which the existing modifications of the PPK-20 will be adopted by various branches of the armed forces. And as a result of this, servicemen of different specialties will receive the most serious advantages in various situations and conditions.

Comments

[Siberian 66]

Whether PPK-20 is good or not, the flyers will then tell you how they sing. It just doesn't make much sense to believe in advertising.

[out of habit]

"poyuzat", in the sense of "fight off the enemy"? There would be fewer such stories.

[Siberian 66]

Nafig nafig. Talk about weekdays of flights and shooting at the range

[Proxima]

The author did not say what advantage this submachine gun has over other modern Russian-made PPs. Take, for example, the AEK-919K among the common people "Kashtan". Here it is just for pilots, very compact, weighs only 1,74 kg! Well, at least hide in your underpants! Shoots with 9 × 19 cartridges, went through two Chechen wars. What's wrong with him? After all, it is obvious that increasing the output of weapons already mastered in production is much cheaper than developing and producing new ones. Moreover, this small arms, the most conservative type weapons.

[Avior]

Chestnut chambered for 9 * 18, AEK-918 was developed under 9 * 19, but it was not produced.

in 2002, this submachine gun was used by the pilots of Ka-50 Black Shark helicopters operating in Chechnya and Dagestan.

[Holgerton]

More logical, in my opinion, would be to use small-sized assault rifles, even better collapsible ones.
The United States followed this path with its collapsible GAU-5A, since both the PP and the rifle will lie in the NAZ, but there is still more confidence in hitting targets when firing 5,45 / 5,56 than in pistol 9 × 19, In addition, the advantage in the number of ammunition units at the PP is leveled by the fact that the pilot is ordered to retreat to his own in emergency situations and avoid fights with the enemy, and not to engage in protracted battles, in which he obviously loses.

With the possibility of access to the NAZ, assembling the rifle will not take much more time than transferring the PP to the firing position.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Holgerton

More logical, in my opinion, would be to use small-sized assault rifles, even better collapsible ones.

On August 23 in the news on VO there was an article "The date of the start of state tests of the small-sized machine AM-17" was named.

The small-sized machine gun AM-17 will enter the stage of state tests this year, an experimental batch of weapons has already been manufactured. This was reported by the press service of the Kalashnikov group of companies.
As the press service explained, Kalashnikov's specialists have modified the AM-17 assault rifle to arm the pilots of the Su-35 and Su-57 fighters.

There, in the comments, they were just surprised:

Quote: Old Tanker

That's just the Kalashnikov concern said that deliveries of the new 9-mm PPK-20 submachine gun should begin as early as 2021.
And also for equipping aircraft crews!

[Andrey VOV]

And who in Chechnya have you seen this weapon?

[Old tanker]

Take, for example, the AEK-919K among the common people "Kashtan". Here it is just for pilots, very compact, weighing only 1,74 kg! Well, at least hide in your underpants! belay Fires 9 × 19 cartridges, has been through two Chechen wars. What's wrong with him? request After all, it is obvious that increasing the output of weapons already mastered in production is much cheaper than developing and producing a new one.

And not so with him because he is Kovrovsky. This means a competitor. And how can the chief armament of the Ministry of Defense allow a competitor to join the troops.
Even the A-545 and A-762, which have been put into service, are not to be seen.

[Avior]

situations when this weapon is really useful for pilots are extremely rare, it is difficult to distinguish a system from them

[Mityay65]

No. Every helicopter or Su-25 pilot can really face a situation when weapons come in handy. This is a normal situation that you have to be prepared for every time you fly.
The PPD-20 has obvious disadvantages as a pilot's weapon. Firstly, the caliber is 9 mm, this is a police caliber. In principle, spetsnaz may be useful, but not a downed pilot. You need a caliber 5.45, 5,56 or 7,62, depending on the theater of operations, which is common among the enemy on the ground.
Secondly, the length of the barrel - you need a long-barreled weapon with a folding barrel. It is necessary to be able to keep the pursuers as far away as possible in order to be able to break away from them in dashes.
The muffler is completely redundant. It will take up space and weight from the bk. If the pursuers do not see the pilot, then it is better to sit quietly and not engage in shooting, and if they see it, then it is better to shoot without a silencer, but with a flame arrester.

[Avior]

I mean the cases when this weapon was actually used by the pilot in the course of hostilities.

[peter1v]

I agree with almost everything, except for the long barrel - it is unlikely that the pilot is as accurate as a sniper to shoot into the distance. And this machine was clearly created for the Space Marines to shoot arachnids in the caves.

[Alexfly]

For a pilot to become well-aimed, he must be able to shoot, and not pass tests in shooting ... so a bullpup for flyers and not only is needed, under a normal cartridge .. for example, 6,5 grendel ..

[Pavel the builder]

Doesn't anyone care about the situation of landing in the taiga or tundra? Fight off predators or get food and survive until help arrives ...

[Skipper]

photo from the exhibition sample with PBS ... and pilots (see military acceptance) will be given a kit without PBS - even shorter and lay down

what

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Avior

situations when this weapon is really useful for pilots are extremely rare, it is difficult to distinguish a system from them

Extremely rare? Well, I don’t know, I don’t know ... If we take into account how many samples (models) of weapons for pilots have been developed ... (only "on the eve" they reported about AM-17, AMB-17 ...), then at least form the air infantry from the pilots, as once sailors from ships to the marines ...! Otherwise ... where are so many weapons for flyers?

[raw174]

Quote: Sibiryak 66

Whether PPK-20 is good or not,

On account of this I will not say, but PP "Vityaz" used an excellent weapon, with the cancellation of accuracy, soft recoil. No comparison with Cedar, for example ... I think that this one will be at least no worse.

[Vavilov]

nothing is clear, except for this

The attention of potential customers will be attracted by the use of one of the most common cartridges and compatibility with a wide range of accessories.

what is the replacement mulka instead of the AKC? weight is the same, the same in NAZ, the same R. Filipov, upon landing, was left with one pistol, what is the point then? push partners?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The point is. that the PBS can be screwed onto the barrel and at the same time do with a regular pistol cartridge, such a number will not work with AKSU.

[Vavilov]

for specialists, yes, but it is for kakbe flyers

It was developed in the interests of the aerospace forces and is intended to be included in the portable emergency reserve of pilots.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Is the pilot silently evading pursuit and not supposed to act?

[Vavilov]

well then yes you still need to attach soft slippers to the PBS

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Do you want to issue a white flag?

[zadorin1974]

Well, they do not fly in kirzach.

[Old tanker]

Is the pilot silently evading pursuit and not supposed to act?

Silently leave and act - yes. But to shoot - only when you are found. But here no noiselessness is needed, but the density of fire.

[Bobik012]

So AKSU is some kind of pushover. And this? An analogue of ultrasound in the size of an automatic machine.
Indeed, for the Air Force, they could modify a shooter under 5,45 to an acceptable form (after all, AKSU is an ersatz version, which is good for something only thanks to a very good source code)

[Old tanker]

The main thing has already been finalized and presented at the same exhibition. I hope that the Ministry of Defense will adopt one thing, and not both. Although not a fact.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

In fact, here the compact submarine and the PPK-20 are paired with one cartridge. What is the point of refusing one or the other?

[Old tanker]

I did not mean the PLC-PPK twin. And the fact that the AM-17 machine gun and the PPK submachine gun are presented for adoption in addition to the PLC.

[Basarev]

It will be like with Lebedev. There are a lot of conversations, zero exhaust. As Lebedev could not displace the PM, so this one will not go into any series. Ksyushka is eternal, flyers will be convinced of this more than once.

[vargo]

Nothing is eternal under the Moon. Who knows. Here real practice of shooting is needed, and experienced warriors.

[Basarev]

This is what is eternal. At least until 2036. As long as the person and her vile clan are in power, there will be no change for the better.

[vargo]

Why is that? Right in all, wherever you think it is only worse? Is it really so in everything?

[Basarev]

This is already a long-term trend. Only until the time it remained hidden. While oil was expensive, it was not very noticeable. And as it began to return to the natural cost of a penny, the true state of affairs immediately surfaced.

[vargo]

And all the good deeds and new productions, new achievements, you certainly do not attribute all this to the current clan?

[Basarev]

These are not the achievements of the clan, but of the people, to whom the clan stubbornly puts a spoke in its wheels.

[vargo]

The clan is made up of the people. It is convenient for you to abstractly have a clan and people, but in life it is not so simple. And the clan has victories and something to be proud of, and there are problems. But so often I hear that victories are the people, and the problems are the clan. Just not everything, but better leave the convenient scheme.
How do you even imagine these clan members? Do you think they spend all day thinking about how to ruin people's lives? Where is it written on the agenda? Even there, although there are enough reptiles, the grief from which you so generously spread on all the clan members, but there are many who really want to do something necessary and necessary for development purposes. There are simply those who think more often of the state as a business, where
in the course of useful actions they themselves are trying to make money. The main thing here is that business goes on, and not just earnings. And sometimes it comes out, and success is achieved, but you still say that this is the people and nothing more. Yes, the people, but the clan is a people, here is such a good-for-nothing somewhere, but somewhere surprisingly beautiful. The world is not black and white, it is better to learn how to detail claims, it is better to specific elements of it. This makes it more productive. The rest is empty idealism, without specifics in the future.

[Basarev]

Just the opposite. The clan does not consist of the people and has never been. He is the descendants of the Soviet nomenklatura, from birth in boyar privileges. These people live in their own closed world, in complete isolation from the people. And yes, these people all day long are just thinking how to hurt the people more painfully. Because the noble consciousness with complete contempt for ordinary people has not disappeared. We are all serfs for these who can be played at cards and exchanged for greyhounds.

[Pavel the builder]

What will you yourself be from? A descendant of serfs with the consciousness of a hired worker, whom everyone should give - work, education, a free apartment and medicine and then a bigger pension ... and preferably mental work - look out the window and count the crows ...

[Basarev]

Indeed. There is such a concept - the natural duties of the state. These are the things that the state must provide in any case. Just what is spelled out in the rights of a citizen. The right to work means guaranteed employment in a specialty. Freedom of speech means its complete decriminalization, you can say anything and anywhere, the consequences are only for deeds. This also includes freedom of the press and assembly. The right to shelter, the right to the Internet ... The state is full of such obligations. Or do you think that it owes us nothing and did not ask us to give birth?

[gorenina91]

- Well, at least they gave a turn from this PPK-20 on some posted video ... or at least made a single shot ... - And then somehow everything ... - continuous "verbal shooting" ...

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There was even a broadcast of "Military Acceptance" dedicated to this, it is surprising how it was possible to miss with such and such an interest in the subject.

[Avior]

commercial

[Old tanker]

Watch the issue of Military Acceptance with him.
https://youtu.be/pOmZm5LgeFE

[vovochkarzhevsky]

For pilots, this shit on the 9X19 cartridge is not suitable. There is zero sense in it. In fact, the same "shortening" as it was, with all the inconveniences. The only plus is the unification of the cartridge with the pistol, otherwise there are only drawbacks.
In short, nothing new, again, instead of developing a weapon specifically for flight crews, they foist what they have.
Здесь коротко: https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5ac0950fd7bf2113e95daebd/o-vyjivanii-letnogo-sostava-posle-pokidaniia-samoletavertoleta-nad-nedrujestvennoi-territoriei-5f7ae81c8d3ae5589b0c03b2

[Avior]

PPK-20 is not very suitable for pilots, it is a special forces weapon, for which it was positioned when it was created.
Pilots don't need all those Picatinny rails and tool bags. Yes, and the weight of the PP is impressive, and the pilots, it is quite possible, will have not so much to shoot as to run - that's how it goes.
Speaking about the pilot's weapon, first of all, you need to understand that there is a wide variety of situations in which he can find himself depending on the terrain, the distance to his own, the attitude of the enemy and the local population to the downed pilots and prisoners, the intensity of the conflict and many other factors.
In some case, it makes sense to shoot back to the last, in some to hide without giving a sign, in some to give money to the locals, and in some to just surrender, without shooting at anyone, like that Indian barbel that he was captured by the Pakistanis and was soon at home.
But this is a special case, and the pilot should be ready for different situations as much as possible, the main task is to save himself and return to his own, and not try to kill as many enemies as possible, so in the most extreme case.
And one of the obvious problems is the case when they were shot down directly at the time of the enemy's attack - in this case, the enemies may be in place already at the time of landing, so it is desirable that the weapon was with you, and not in the NAZ in a chair.
Therefore, the optimality of such a PP is questionable.
Rather, a PP would be useful in mass and dimensions approximately APS, which can be at hand during ejection, and not in the depths of the chair and NAZ, which you simply will not have time to get.
Something like the size of the SR-2M, PP-2000, with a magazine in the pistol grip and a simple design, most likely chambered for 9 * 19 s with an armor-piercing bullet of the 7N31 type or similar.
And to him in NAZ there is an additional compact or subcompact pistol for the same cartridge, capable of shooting, including cartridges with increased penetration, and there will be a spare weapon, and the possibility of hidden carrying, if necessary, to get out without a uniform.
And, as an option, a silencer in NAZ in addition.
In my opinion, such a set of weapons is better suited for survival in a variety of conditions and situations, although, of course, this will be a compromise solution.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Keep CP-2M, PP-2000 in your breast pocket? Or just before the ejection, having found it in the cockpit, take it with you?

[Avior]

Instead of APS.

Rather, a PP would be useful in weight and dimensions approximately APS

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Will you be able to fly an airplane or a helicopter with an SR-2M or PP-2000 in your breast pocket?

[Avior]

I have not written about a specific model. Didn't write about the breast pocket.

Rather, a PP would be useful in weight and dimensions approximately APS

Does the APS interfere?
Also...

to fly an airplane or a helicopter in your breast pocket

Do you know what is hanging from the men on the right?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There are no ejection seats on MI-8.

[Avior]

didn't you write?

fly an airplane or helicopter

But I am not proposing to arm the SVD pilots.
In my opinion, there should be a compact PCB in a pistol form factor within the limits of what is actually possible for placement either on a pilot or on a chair with the ability to quickly pick up after landing. I don’t insist on a breast pocket. It is clear that with large overloads there can be problems with correct placement.
Even if it is to some extent to the detriment of his combat capabilities. Better to have weaker weapons than none.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Will it not be burdensome for the pilot to have a submachine gun during the flight? Maybe a compact version of the Lebedev PL-15K pistol will be enough, as planned, and have a heavier weapon in NAZ?

[Avior]

The pistol is suitable only as an additional weapon, and the probability that the pilot with the pistol will not reach the NAZ is very high. Now there are plenty of cars and motorcycles, and there is a high probability that the enemy may be at the landing site too quickly, and you will not break through to weapons in NAZ with a pistol.
There may be other reasons why you will not be able to use NAZ. Therefore, you must have a fairly effective weapon with you. A pistol is not the right weapon in the given conditions.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I am afraid that in the situation you have colorfully described, where the enemy is already waiting for the landing on motorcycles and cars, nothing will save the pilot.

[Avior]

Nobody can guarantee anything.
But the likelihood of breaking away from the enemy after landing is higher with PP.
The pistol does not solve anything at this moment.
If there is no enemy until the moment when the pilot is able to use the weapon in the NAZ, then the pistol is not needed.
And if the enemy appears at this moment, then the pistol will not help.
Therefore, in my opinion, you should have exactly the PP with you, and the pistol in NAZ as a spare, and not vice versa

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

For an ejection seat, your idea is unsuitable for sure.

[Avior]

if you carry a compact pistol, then the requirements for PP in NAZ will differ, although the weight limit will remain, although not in such a strict form. All the same, the probability of running and hiding a lot will remain and will impose a restriction.
About PBS - controversial in my opinion. Is that for a pistol, for single shots. For the PP, it weakens the power of the cartridge, for the pistol it is critical

[vovochkarzhevsky]

There is a pistol in my breast pocket.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The opponent certainly insisted on a submachine gun, which, in my opinion, is inconvenient to keep in a breast pocket.

[Pavel the builder]

Have you skydived? Do you know how long it takes to land? It's enough to get a weapon out of the Nazis if the pilot is alive

[Avior]

If there is enough time, if he is alive, he is healthy, if he does not get stuck somewhere in a crevice, unlike ordinary jumps on a level platform, when ejected in a combat situation, the chair and the pilot can get anywhere, so the minimum set in the form of some kind of weapon, a bag with sugar, a lighthouse for calling rescuers, matches, a knife and a medical minimum in the form of a dressing bag should be with you wherever the chair gets.

[vovochkarzhevsky]

5. Weapons. The same Afghanistan has shown that a tandem pistol plus a machine gun is an ideal solution. Trying to replace them with one thing is idiocy. Weapons are also prone to failure, and just combat damage. And to remain for the indicated reasons without anything is somehow sad.

But what must necessarily be is the unification of the cartridges. By type, as during the war TT and PPSh (PPS). By the way, this option in Afghanistan was considered, to arm the crews removed from the warehouses of TT and PPS. But it turned out that the PPS does not have a single firing mode, therefore it was not implemented. Although some of the TT pistols still ended up in Afghanistan.

It is necessary to dwell in more detail on the requirements for an assault rifle for pilots.

It must be specialized for the conditions of use and use. First of all, have a small weight and dimensions when folded in order to fix it on the thigh. Do not interfere with the pilot to carry out his functional duties. Do not injure him when forced to leave (ejection).

It is natural to be reliable and quickly transferred to a combat position.

Provide targeted, single fire on average at 400 meters (in fact, its task is to keep the enemy at a specified distance).

For these purposes, the time-tested cartridge 7,62 x 25 is ideal. Of course, it has no outstanding advantages. He is quite a middle peasant, but what is valuable, universal. Powerful enough to be used in a submachine gun and small enough to be used in a pistol.

[Avior]

aimed, single shooting at an average of 400 meters

you got a little excited. approximately doubled.

[vovochkarzhevsky]

It seemed so to you from the couch.

[Avior]

Cool photo, I also have an army one, where I am with a bayonet-knife in my underwear and an evil expression on my face.
can you suggest a PP from which you can conduct effective fire at a distance of 400 m with a cartridge 7,62 x 25?

[vovochkarzhevsky]

If he did, there would be no problems. But modern technologies are quite capable of achieving such a result.

[Avior]

What kind of technology is this, excuse me?
How can they change the physics - primarily the ballistics of the bullet?

[vovochkarzhevsky]

Changing the shape of the bullet, increasing the power of the propellant charge.

[Pavel the builder]

When landing in the mountains or in a dense forest ... there is not even 70 meters for targeting ... in the tundra and 100 meters from the blinding snow you will not see anything ... the pilot is not a sniper with the appropriate training ...

[vl903]

some kind of dregs. in what situation may you need it? unclear
as you have already said correctly, the pilot can have several typical situations:
1. to get to the NAZ - a powerful pistol -type boa constrictor, gsh18, etc.
2. to drive away or force to lie down the enemy armed with machine guns and machine guns - SVCh
3. If you need to remove someone silently - the same pistol with a silencer.
I'm sorry for the flyers

[Bad_gr]

Quote: vl903

1. to get to the NAZ - a powerful pistol -type boa constrictor, gsh18, etc.

A pistol or light PP should be worn on the pilot's chest. And NAZ has a more powerful weapon. Since there may be situations when it is not up to the search for NAZ.

[Zaurbek]

I wonder if there will be alternative calibers? 9x19 for the police, for pilots, maybe 7,62x25mm will be better ... but somewhere 9x21mm is needed

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Will the standard cartridges 9x21mm or 7,62x25mm be suitable for PBS? In the photo, the PBS is even screwed on for clarity.

[Zaurbek]

Both are used with BPS ..... 9X21 in RF ... 7.62x25 in China.
9x19 is also not optimal for a muffler. Powerful.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Then, maybe the pistol will not turn out compact enough for such cartridges, or the silencer itself will be too long. Why such difficulties? Picked up, in my opinion, a good pair.

[Zaurbek]

His design has the roots of Ak75U .... what does a "powerful" pistol cartridge mean for him?

[vl903]

a trained pilot is considered to be worth at least three times the cost of his type of aircraft or helicopter. as if even one pilot is worth the release of 9x21 cartridges for a silencer. such a pair of clips is enough for the pilot's eyes. three more with the usual cartridge. having reached the NAZ, the pilot can assess the situation and discard the usual cartridges. since for high-profile cases, a compact sniper rifle like a microwave is enough for him

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Even if it is possible to create a sample of a sniper rifle that fits under the ejection seat, it will definitely not be possible to adapt the PBS to it. And I read that a survey was conducted among the pilots, asking them to choose a weapon. The overwhelming majority, if not unanimously, chose a compact pistol with them and a PP with a silencer, that is, the option executed by the Ministry of Defense, who wanted to grab a sniper rifle in disassembled form, were not found.

[vl903]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Even if it is possible to create a sample of a sniper rifle that fits under the ejection seat, it will definitely not be possible to adapt the PBS to it. And I read that a survey was conducted among the pilots, asking them to choose a weapon. The overwhelming majority, if not unanimously, chose a compact pistol with them and a PP with a silencer, that is, the option executed by the Ministry of Defense, who wanted to grab a sniper rifle in disassembled form, were not found.

A microwave or analog may well be able to do it. this is one of the rare areas where competencies have been preserved. you need a competent terms of reference and money.
the pilots chose from the real, what they have, but now they have stechkin and ksyuha.

[Pavel the builder]

It depends on which aircraft is meant and how long the pilot has been. Yesterday's lieutenant with three years of experience and 200 hours of flight time or a lieutenant colonel with 3000 flight hours. The price of airplanes is different. Su-25 or MiG-31. The difference is 15 times

[vl903]

the Americans, after a long search, (for 70 years they were sorting through the options) is now a collapsible m16 / m4.
it's not that big of money to finish the same microwave in a collapsible lightweight version. with a jammer or simply a reduction of the sound and flame of the shot and with a good modern multi-mode sight.
now, in principle, there are not so many young men passing through their health to become pilots. and their life is much more expensive for the state.
but this is for the state ... the generals do not care, the oligarchs lack the brain to understand that soon there will be no one to protect their oil and it will be taken away from them.
To offer a pistol cartridge for this purpose is the height of unprofessionalism.
pp will only work in a couple of situations. light special marsksmankas auto-fire will work better in big situations.
there are also a number of factors: a small number of wearable cartridges. more quantity and quality of fighters in pursuit. dimensions of NAZ. completely different scenarios of possible situations.
so a compromise is needed. but the submachine gun is a very truncated solution

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Will the standard cartridges 9x21mm or 7,62x25mm be suitable for PBS?

The AMB-17 assault rifle is quite comparable in weight and dimensions to the PPK-20, but it covers it well in terms of destructive power.

Technical characteristics of AMB 17
Length with unfolded stock: --- 850 mm
Length w / folded stock: ---- 650 mm
Weight: ---------------------------------------- 2900 g
Cartridge caliber: -------------------------- 9x39 mm
Rate of fire: ----------------------- 700 rounds / min
Magazine capacity, rounds: 10 pcs., 20 pcs. And 30 pcs.

This is if you need a silent one.
By the way, the U-2 pilot Francis Gary Powers, shot down in the sky over Sverdlovsk, was equipped with a pistol with a silencer.

[Volos]

Defense Minister. S.K.Shoigu proposed to arm the aircraft crews with the AM-17 assault rifle. True, with a caveat: to reduce the weight and dimensions so that the weapon fits into the "pilot's backpack". Apparently, it was about NAZ,
TTX AM-17:
Used ammunition: 5.45x39 mm;
magazine capacity: 30 rounds;
total (folded) length: 750 (490) mm;
barrel length: 230 mm;
unloaded weight: 2,5 kg;
rate of fire: 700 rounds per minute
AM-17 is a very ergonomic, lightweight and compact weapon. It is likely that in a few years we will see it as the main weapon of the crews of military fighters and bombers of the Russian Aerospace Forces.

[vl903]

am17 is much better

[bunta]

yes, yes, just like that with a picatinny rail and a collimator. And with a sliding stock, as well as an under-barrel flashlight, a laser pointer, a silencer and a bayonet-knife ...

[Andrey VOV]

I read the comments, all the experts are kapets, all the pilots, all the zgpyu what and how and where and where and better, and all who develop weapons are loshars who do not understand anything ... Commentators, and who were you in a real battle .. Raise your hands ... Who did it, do not hesitate .. It's okay, but then everything is clear, the main thing is not to run away ..

[vl903]

Quote: Andrey VOV

I read the comments, all the experts are kapets, all the pilots, all the zgpyu what and how and where and where and better, and all who develop weapons are loshars who do not understand anything ... Commentators, and who were you in a real battle .. Raise your hands ... Who did it, do not hesitate .. It's okay, but then everything is clear, the main thing is not to run away ..

vabsche that science is invented in order to generalize past experience to avoid mistakes in the future.
members of the forum are certainly not academics of survival, but surely many have experience here (I do not)
pro pilots in the air. on the ground, special forces are more competent, and they need to be interviewed in the context of possible situations.
so that now you can give the pilot something better than Stechkin and Ksyusha, like no one argues?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

This discussion has nothing to do with science. The reasoning boils down to handing over the most powerful and massive weapons and questions in the spirit, why is the pilot a silencer.

[vl903]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

This discussion has nothing to do with science. The reasoning boils down to handing over the most powerful and massive weapons and questions in the spirit, why is the pilot a silencer.

the reasoning tries to generalize the available experience and give the pilot the optimal set of weapons for his survival in this very specific situation.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And did you not bother to get acquainted with the dimensions of the NAZ for the ejection seat?
Well, at least the GM-94 type grenade launcher did not come up with the idea of ​​proposing, otherwise they would be armed with the latest cumulative fragmentation grenades in order to knock out all the armored vehicles of the pursuers.

[vl903]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

And did you not bother to get acquainted with the dimensions of the NAZ for the ejection seat?
Well, at least the GM-94 type grenade launcher did not come up with the idea of ​​proposing, otherwise they would be armed with the latest cumulative fragmentation grenades in order to knock out all the armored vehicles of the pursuers.

it is clear that if everything were simple, then the problem would not have existed for a long time.
1.However, the pilot is very expensive.
2. he always has time to shoot himself, it is desirable for him to fight for life
3.Fight off with Stechkin in 2021 is not very good, is it?
4. Why is PP better than Stechkin? what will he give to the pilot besides weight? isn't am17 better?
5. probably first you need to divide into typical cases and take into account the permissible weight and size:
1
has landed near or far from enemy forces.
2 forests or steppe desert
3. there is a chase or not.
4. helicopter expected soon or there is no hope

and select a kit for these situations
It seems to me that the pistol is light but powerful, with a silencer and conventional and subsonic cartridges is a must.
instead of pp am17 or an analogue under 5,45 or an analogue of a collapsible microwave (just don’t talk about the fact that it’s not real)
nn in the weight of the machine is pointless

[Bobik012]

nn in the weight of the machine is pointless

Truly. And not only in weight, but also in size. This is basically. And not only in this case.

[Andrey VOV]

Special forces and flyers .. They are taught completely differently, you cannot put them on the same board

[vl903]

to survive on the ground, the pilot will have to become a commando if the rescue group is delayed. for this they need courses and special weapons and equipment

[vovochkarzhevsky]

No weapons in NAZ. The pistol is in the left breast pocket, there is nothing better to come up with, automatic, but it is better to attach the PP to the right thigh.

[vl903]

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

No weapons in NAZ. The pistol is in the left breast pocket, there is nothing better to come up with, automatic, but it is better to attach the PP to the right thigh.

one option is impossible: wounded helicopters and airplanes have different systems, lack of ejection seats, etc.
Above, people write that even a pistol is better in NAZ when ejecting, otherwise, due to overloads, the pistol strives to cripple the pilot
apparently this is due to the desire of the pilots to have a small-sized light pistol in their pockets

[vovochkarzhevsky]

Do you even know that the left breast pocket is specially made for a pistol?

[vl903]

I dont know. although in childhood I carried a helicopter jacket, so she has a breast pocket for a pistol. what does this mean? about the fact that there are no overloads during ejection? or that it is desirable for the pilot, as well as for the tanker, that the pistol does not cling to anything and is always with him as an extreme weapon? or that the people above said that a heavy pistol, when ejected, strives to cripple the pilot?

[vovochkarzhevsky]

There are no helicopter jackets, young man. There is a so-called LTO common for all. And therefore, there is no need for tales that, when ejected, a pistol in the left breast pocket can harm the pilot. During the development of the LTO, this was tested in all modes.
In addition, the pistol in the left breast pocket acts as a kind of body armor.
And most importantly, it is always with the pilot, in the cockpit you will not forget it like a machine gun.
In addition, we must not forget that not all aircraft have ejection seats.

[vl903]

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

There are no helicopter jackets, young man. There is a so-called LTO common for all. And therefore, there is no need for tales that, when ejected, a pistol in the left breast pocket can harm the pilot. During the development of the LTO, this was tested in all modes.
In addition, the pistol in the left breast pocket acts as a kind of body armor.
And most importantly, it is always with the pilot, in the cockpit you will not forget it like a machine gun.
In addition, we must not forget that not all aircraft have ejection seats.

1. I am not a pilot or even served.
2. There was a jacket, and I don’t know if it was a separate one for helicopter pilots or for all pilots.
3. the fact that pilots without ejection seats, like almost everyone else, it is safer to carry a pistol in their breast pocket is obvious.
4. It was about the fact that the pilots allegedly consider a heavy pistol to be traumatic during ejection and therefore want to have a small-sized pistol with them and in the NAZ already a heavier weapon.
5.if you or your friends have such experience, please tell us

[vovochkarzhevsky]

I will say this, I have not met any statements that the PM caused any problems during the ejection, and he himself, as a helicopter pilot, did not bother me in my pocket.
At first, as a lieutenant in Afghanistan, I tried to cuddle like a naval holster. But after getting out of the front cockpit of the Mi-24 in the parking lot, he almost hung on it, he changed his attitude to "chic". Especially after some leaders cut off their holsters in an operational manner, after that they drowned their pistols in toilets.
In general, I said everything here, the problem must be solved in a comprehensive manner.
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5ac0950fd7bf2113e95daebd/o-vyjivanii-letnogo-sostava-posle-pokidaniia-samoletavertoleta-nad-nedrujestvennoi-territoriei-5f7ae81c8d3ae5589b0c03b2

[vl903]

read it. I agree with everything. edinstvoenoe - to squeeze out of the cartridge 7,62x25 400 meters is doubtful. so maybe, as a compromise, it is better, like psm in your pocket (what would be easier and a collapsible machine like ak74 chambered for 5,45x39 cartridge?

[vovochkarzhevsky]

Why not? Change the shape of the bullet, increase the propellant charge and that's it. Even the PPSh, according to some sources, worked aimingly for 300 m.
Moreover, the task is to keep the enemy at a distance. Therefore, the main complaint about the 7,62 x 25 cartridge is that the low stopping effect of the bullet does not matter here.
But we get a single cartridge, which is up to the pistol, which is up to the machine gun. Which is of great importance in terms of survival.
The pilot does not need a muffler either.

[Bobik012]

Why is he so huge? 9x19 with a free shutter ... So this is an ultrasound! Why so big? And why did the store for a cartridge with a straight sleeve in the form of a horn turn out? Some kind of crap ...

[Sancho_SP]

I do not even know.

I would understand if a small-sized machine gun or something like a weapon for the police was made.

Pilots, special forces and the like - here 9x39 suggests itself. Despite the fact that the dimensions and weight of the weapon will be the same, and the design is only closer to the AKM, which means it is more reliable and cheaper.

[bunta]

The pilots will be armed with weapons with a pistol cartridge! At the same time, such a weapon in terms of its mass and dimensional characteristics corresponds to a full-fledged lightweight machine gun chambered for 5,45x39 type AKS74U or AM-17! those who came up with it.
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/ingw/ppk20-prestupnaia-glupost-ministerstva-oborony-rf-61234cba33b2222d5d323e0f

[Per se.]

If the pilot comes to the point of using a service weapon, here, as they say, the only question is how to give his life more dearly ... If Oleg Peshkov had a machine gun then, this is not a solution to saving his life.
Why bother to fence these vegetable gardens here at all, we must distinguish between a survival kit and a combat weapon. It is better to supplement the ration, first-aid kit, walkie-talkie, and not to sell weapons that are generally not for pilots. Make planes and helicopters more reliable, and, most importantly, do not send people without cover. Here it would be better to think about the weapons and tactics of rescue groups, and not how to make submachine gunners out of pilots.

[vl903]

Quote: Per se.

If the pilot comes to the point of using a service weapon, here, as they say, the only question is how to give his life more dearly ... If Oleg Peshkov had a machine gun then, this is not a solution to saving his life.
Why bother to fence these vegetable gardens here at all, we must distinguish between a survival kit and a combat weapon. It is better to supplement the ration, first-aid kit, walkie-talkie, and not to sell weapons that are generally not for pilots. Make planes and helicopters more reliable, and, most importantly, do not send people without cover. Here it would be better to think about the weapons and tactics of rescue groups, and not how to make submachine gunners out of pilots.

Unfortunately, one cannot do without shooting down the pilots.
an experienced pilot costs about three airplane price tags. how much is it? 90 million dollars? therefore, even two rescued pilots justify the development of special weapons and equipment and special courses for them.
the same Peshkov had not to defeat the pursuers, but to discourage him from approaching him, to make it impossible to suppress him with fire and to prolong the time as much as possible.
here he could be helped by ak74m with a sight, but better a compact analogue of the microwave. at least there was at least some chance. with ppk20 there is no chance here.

[Per se.]

Quote: vl903

the same Peshkov had not to defeat the pursuers, but to discourage him from approaching him

It is possible to "discourage the approach" from wild animals, but not from capture groups. Are you serious about the compact microwave analogue? The main weapon of the pilot, his combat aircraft, and the downed pilot will always be vulnerable, will be the target for capture. No additional weapon will solve this problem, even a microwave, even a PKM. For survival, it is better to have more spare clips for the pistol, other supplies. This is what kind of pilot needs a pistol, this can already be dreamed of, and, I think, what is needed here is clearly not a PM, but at least APS, Glock 17, something like that. Again, pilots need cover, rescue teams, and not an additional machine gun in the cockpit.

[vl903]

Quote: Per se.

Quote: vl903

the same Peshkov had not to defeat the pursuers, but to discourage him from approaching him

It is possible to "discourage the approach" from wild animals, but not from capture groups. Are you serious about the compact microwave analogue? The main weapon of the pilot, his combat aircraft, and the downed pilot will always be vulnerable, will be the target for capture. No additional weapon will solve this problem, even a microwave, even a PKM. For survival, it is better to have more spare clips for the pistol, other supplies. This is what kind of pilot needs a pistol, this can already be dreamed of, and, I think, what is needed here is clearly not a PM, but at least APS, Glock 17, something like that. Again, pilots need cover, rescue teams, and not an additional machine gun in the cockpit.

absolutely agree about the cover and rescue teams.
but if a situation like Peshkova happened, then the gun would only be shot. any. and pp too. surrender to the beasts is even worse. with this logic, then we must go further - why did the shot down pilot need food, water, life jacket, boat - shot down - die, so what? with a pistol or ppk20 in most chase situations, when the rescue team is delayed, the pilot has no chance.
and to call Turkomans groups of capture - you flatter them too much. a couple of troupes would be enough for them to slow down the pace. and this is gained time, which means the life of the pilot.

[Per se.]

Quote: vl903

and to call Turkomans groups of capture - you flatter them too much. a couple of troupes would be enough for them to slow down the pace

You are talking about Syria, but there was Afghanistan, and there was Chechnya. In Chechnya alone, 51 helicopters and 11 aircraft were shot down. I would not underestimate either the Mujahideen, or the "Czechs", or the same "Turkomans". In some situations, they are even more dangerous than special capture groups.

The pilot's task is to get away from the clash, to get out to his own people, here supplies, food, medicines are important, and not an additional load from the "machine gun". If the pilot has already been imprisoned, we are only talking about selling his life at a higher price, so here one grenade may be enough ... If you "just shoot yourself", this PM is even more convenient than a machine gun ...
It is possible to agree on the additional armament of the tank's crew, but for pilots there should not be such moments where it is necessary to fight the enemy on the ground. As a variant of additional equipment, except as a personal preference and desire to take additional weapons with you, as a special condition for a specific situation on a combat mission.

[vl903]

Quote: Per se.

Quote: vl903

and to call Turkomans groups of capture - you flatter them too much. a couple of troupes would be enough for them to slow down the pace

You are talking about Syria, but there was Afghanistan, and there was Chechnya. In Chechnya alone, 51 helicopters and 11 aircraft were shot down. I would not underestimate either the Mujahideen, or the "Czechs", or the same "Turkomans". In some situations, they are even more dangerous than special capture groups.

The pilot's task is to get away from the clash, to get out to his own people, here supplies, food, medicines are important, and not an additional load from the "machine gun". If the pilot has already been imprisoned, we are only talking about selling his life at a higher price, so here one grenade may be enough ... If you "just shoot yourself", this PM is even more convenient than a machine gun ...
It is possible to agree on the additional armament of the tank's crew, but for pilots there should not be such moments where it is necessary to fight the enemy on the ground. As a variant of additional equipment, except as a personal preference and desire to take additional weapons with you, as a special condition for a specific situation on a combat mission.

I absolutely agree with you that it is not permissible to allow a pilot to be shot down and even more so his one-on-one fight with the enemy. and the fact that the pilot's task is to avoid the collision and wait for the helicopter. but not always that good.
at the same time, now it is not a problem to give each pilot a good special course, to train him in tactics with the same laser tag, even if for his "fun" it will be necessary to make a special training ground and keep at least a whole battalion of "capture group" instructors there. So to allocate from 8 tons of payload 20 kg for an additional NAZ in which to put both the PC and the SVDS and the laser guidance system of some kind of "Krasnopol". after landing, the pilot, in case of no need, can throw away all unnecessary and, for example, take excess water in the desert, for example.
Traditionally, we are not accustomed to counting people's money and even appreciating the life of a soldier.
find out how things are with the same Israelites. They value life and count money.

[Per se.]

Quote: vl903

find out how things are with the same Israelites

It is unlikely that Israeli or American pilots fly with machine guns in the cockpit. The success of the mission is already an excellent organization, preparation and conduct of combat missions. Poor training and backward tactics, no machine gun in the cockpit can replace, and its absence is not the reason for the defeat of an aircraft or helicopter. The rest is from the evil one, like a pilot alone with a gang of militants to fight, with what miracle weapon, as an infantryman, to save his life.

[vl903]

GAU5 American people laid out the above. for 5,56 collapsible version of m14

[Per se.]

Personally, I do not mind if there will be additional weapons for the pilots, but it is better to think about how not to take matters to such extremes.

[cat Rusich]

Quote: vl903

the same Peshkov had not to defeat the pursuers, but to discourage him from approaching him, to make it impossible to suppress him with fire and to prolong the time as much as possible.
.

Then you need a BC of at least 10 stores.
About the "hero of the article" - BK 4 stores - 1 inserted into the PP, where to place the remaining 3 stores?
You can say - leave in a "backpack", but how to recharge in battle ...
You can say - "stuff in your pockets" - which pockets?

Quote: vl903

here he could be helped by ak74m with a sight, but better a compact analogue of the microwave. at least there was at least some chance. with ppk20 there is no chance here.

My suggestion

Automatic Shaft 9x39mm
There is a silencer and a telescopic sight, can be disassembled into parts.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

The submachine gun has an effective range of about 200 meters, while the AK has about 500.

For pilots, such a PP NAZ is a bad option, since the enemy will be able to hit it from a long distance.

It's like a gun versus a machine gun. You can't fight much.

Such a PP is suitable only for the police, and even then in peacetime.

And the army needs an AK.

Isn’t an ordinary AKM with a folding stock that doesn’t fit in a NAZ ?! Why spoil something that already works well ?!

[Olgerd Gediminovich]

The experience of most wars, starting with the First World War, shows that the PP is good for assault and for fighting in buildings. The pilot, as a rule, catapults into the steppe or into the forest (in our country). Here, for a normal battle, you just need an assault rifle for an intermediate cartridge. Why change AKSU to PP?
If you really want to change, and, again, new AKSUs have not been produced for a long time (I have released more than one store at landfills - a good machine gun - especially if there is no AK-74 at hand), then the AM-17 can still?
Or is the agreement signed and the commander's decision is not discussed?
As in an old joke: "soap is not cute, but you bought it and eat it"?

[vl903]

Quote: Olgerd Gediminovich

The experience of most wars, starting with the First World War, shows that the PP is good for assault and for fighting in buildings. The pilot, as a rule, catapults into the steppe or into the forest (in our country). Here, for a normal battle, you just need an assault rifle for an intermediate cartridge. Why change AKSU to PP?
If you really want to change, and, again, new AKSUs have not been produced for a long time (I have released more than one store at landfills - a good machine gun - especially if there is no AK-74 at hand), then the AM-17 can still?
Or is the agreement signed and the commander's decision is not discussed?
As in an old joke: "soap is not cute, but you bought it and eat it"?

agree. maybe it was worth the aircraft designers to think about changing the size of the NAZ, so that a good, if not AK74m, but a special barrel would fit there normally? compact, long-range with a car and single fire? even if it is titanium, even with a small resource (1000 shots will be enough), even if it is small-scale and expensive? aren't the pilots worth it?

[Olgerd Gediminovich]

All military experts are, of course, valuable. It is a fact. Pilots as well. It takes time and considerable material resources to train them. But they are unlikely to invent anything special and expensive for them. Only perhaps within a small budget.
They decide as usual: "There are a lot of pilots, and the budget for optional weapons is not endless."
For astronauts, they find all sorts of titanium blasters (or compact models of survival weapons) to develop money - it is not so expensive to arm several people in orbit or after descent.

[Catfish]

New submachine gun PPK-20

New? And what's new there? Another Kalashoid with a bunch of body kits and nothing more.

[Moysha]

Least of all, the creators of this gaver thought about the pilots and most of all - how they would sell it abroad and thus fill their accounts in offshore countries.
With a 9x19 cartridge, the pilot will be shot from a distance where his bullets do not reach.
And the mass and dimensions of the PP are the same as that of the AK.
In short, this is definitely a bespontovy devise and a manifestation of sabotage that Stalin spoke of 80 years ago.

[estimate]

The closed bag is small and can be placed in the NAZ ejection seat.

Is it possible in more detail? I mean, where will they find a place there? There is no free space in the K-36DM ejection seat (which seems to be on most aircraft). Even the rather large NAZ-8 had to be abandoned. The smaller NAZ-7M is used.
They even began to use NAZ-IR

Shl Here https://lik-o-dil-es.blogspot.com/2018/03/aviacionnyj-nosimyj-avarijnyj-zapas-naz.html it was written that NAZs are formed according to RPASOP GA-91. So there is a mention of a gun with 16 - 12 gauge ammunition. And I have not heard something about such a gun in equipped NAZs ... In contrast to the Kalashnikov assault rifle, PM, APS and grenades.

[would]

I will join the others who have expressed an absolutely logical opinion - the pilots are given a submachine gun in the dimensions of a compact but full-fledged machine gun.

PPK20 turns out to be the loser in all respects and shortened assault rifles and compact submachine guns and even the now fashionable PDW (of which we are not represented). And all because it is a descendant of PP-19-01 "Vityaz" which was created specifically for police operations, specifically for the typical city special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs or the FSB (and it is not in service in the army).

[vl903]

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

Why not? Change the shape of the bullet, increase the propellant charge and that's it. Even the PPSh, according to some sources, worked aimingly for 300 m.
Moreover, the task is to keep the enemy at a distance. Therefore, the main complaint about the 7,62 x 25 cartridge is that the low stopping effect of the bullet does not matter here.
But we get a single cartridge, which is up to the pistol, which is up to the machine gun. Which is of great importance in terms of survival.
The pilot does not need a muffler either.

1.Single cartridge is very important but ...
2. the overpowered 7,62x25 is not suitable for a small-sized pistol. a pistol of the size of a Beretta 92 or Desert Needles or Stechkin do not suit them now, as a pistol they are bulky and traumatic when ejected, and they do not reach the PP in terms of characteristics.
3. such a reinforced cartridge still falls short of even 5,45x39. At the same time, everyone agrees that the task of the pilot is to eject without injury and find the NAZ with a light weapon. (a small-sized pistol is suitable here) 1 try to stay unnoticed until the helicopter arrives. (a silencer may be needed here) 2. if it is found to keep the enemy away, if the pursuit slows down their pace, discourage the desire to take him on a swoop. at the same time, the enemy's firepower and ammunition are many times greater. here he will not be helped by either a PP or a machine gun. hope only comes with a compact automatic sniper rifle. if the enemy is far away, it should give him superiority and ensure it is desirable to immediately defeat the enemy, only this can bring down the excitement of the chase. she must win a duel with machine guns, otherwise he will be pinned down, surrounded and taken to the helicopter. if the enemy is immediately close, it should be able to auto or self-loading fire. moreover, the resource is sufficient for her in 3 shots. that is, it can be made under a powerful cartridge. lighten the structure as much as possible, and gain the mass necessary for damping the recoil by attaching other equipment to it - a knife, a walkie-talkie, a flashlight, etc.
Ppsh, on the other hand, at 300 meters, which does not get anywhere will only increase the excitement of the chase - she sees the cartridges are being spent, there is no sense, the prey is close, while the weapon of the chase at 300 meters will allow you to press the pilot and drive him under a stone or into a ditch, and then the cartridges to the top

[vovochkarzhevsky]

Firstly, the 7,62 cartridge was successfully used both in the TT pistol and in the PPS and PPSh.
Secondly, let’s not tell me what a pilot needs.

[vl903]

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

Firstly, the 7,62 cartridge was successfully used both in the TT pistol and in the PPS and PPSh.
Secondly, let’s not tell me what a pilot needs.

1. If you do not communicate, take offense, snort, why a forum?
2. Neither TT, nor PPS, nor PPSh to a pilot in a chase, like a dog's fifth leg.
3. it is necessary not to dance from the cartridge, but from the tasks and permissible dimensions and weight. the 7,62x25 cartridge is better than the 9x18 cartridge, in which it is even better than the 9x19 cartridge, but not in principle.
and the main thing in the task of avoiding the chase or trying to keep the chase away for a few minutes while the helicopter flies with the help, does not give anything because of the small effective range. a pilot with such a cartridge is guaranteed easy prey for any pursuit.
as people have already written above and in other discussions here, it is not for nothing that all over the world the pilot is laid down either only with a pistol or at once a collapsible m16 / m4.

[vovochkarzhevsky]

Is it not destiny to read the previous comments? To keep the ponies from running in the second round?
All aviation is a search for compromises. There are too many requirements and restrictions.
Of course, it is best to keep the enemy at a distance with a machine gun. But you can't push it into the cockpit.
That is why I am talking about the 7,62 x 25 cartridge. Although it is not outstanding in some parameters, it is still the same compromise. Suitable for both a pistol and a more powerful weapon.
Since only this cartridge is able to provide the highest muzzle velocity of a bullet in terms of weight and dimensions. If it is finalized within the framework of existing technologies, then in general it will turn out ideal.

[vl903]

in all the comments we are all together and are looking for a compromise, as you rightly pointed out.
and a modified 7,62x25 and it turns out 5,45x39. The mass is the same. the range is many times greater. the mass of weapons under it fits in 3kg. the size will fit if the barrel is made detachable, although the same AKV521 is already collapsible and will probably fit into the NAZ.
and from memoirs, partisans and saboteurs of the NKVD with ppsh in open areas were easily taken prisoner (wounded) by policemen with rifles. at the same time, the NKVD groups took at least one sniper rifle with them for such cases. one accurate shot discouraged the police from showing heroism.
and the machine gun will not suit the pilot, not only because of the size, the number of cartridges, weight, but also because with the machine gun it will be on an equal footing with the chase and the chase is dozens of fighters and one machine gun against them is a little better than ppk20

[vovochkarzhevsky]

What the hell is NAZ? In the army aviation it was canceled a long time ago, in Afghanistan it was no longer so. I will not argue, but in the front-line aviation too. And absolutely the right decision. To survive in a combat situation, all these canned food and so on, you need in the last place.
Meanwhile, it is in army and front-line aviation that the problem of equipping flight personnel with optimal weapons is more acute than ever. Like a warrior in peacetime.
In this case, weapons and ammunition should be placed on the pilot and be available at any moment, regardless of whether there was a bailout, jump, or an emergency landing. It is unacceptable to waste time picking out weapons with ammunition from the NAZ packing.
As for the machine gun. In Afghanistan, there were cases when, after a forced landing of helicopters, PKT were removed from the sides. Moreover, leaving the place of forced landing, or leaving is allowed only in case of emergency.

[vl903]

NAZ here means a box on the halyard attached to the ejection seat that descends with the pilot by parachute. It is laid under the pilot's seat and this limits its size. and the pilot of a modern aircraft does not have to rely on anything else when ejecting. at the same time, the overloads during ejection are such that even with a regular jump, the pilot often receives a spinal fracture. if the curtain in front of the face or arms of the leg does not work with the cables, it will break them. therefore, only a small pistol can be attached to the body.
because of these restrictions, all cheese is boron.

[vovochkarzhevsky]

The pistol, in the dimensions of PM - TT, can be easily fixed on the body. As for the machine gun, the ideal place is on the side on the right thigh, only it should not be just another ersatz, but a weapon specially designed for the specifics. You can even donate a resource thereof.
Well, not all aircraft have catapults, the same Mi-8, on which in local conflicts the main burden of losses falls.

[vl903]

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

The pistol, in the dimensions of PM - TT, can be easily fixed on the body. As for the machine gun, the ideal place is on the side on the right thigh, only it should not be just another ersatz, but a weapon specially designed for the specifics. You can even donate a resource thereof.
Well, not all aircraft have catapults, the same Mi-8, on which in local conflicts the main burden of losses falls.

I agree with all this too

[estimate]

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

In the army aviation it was canceled a long time ago, in Afghanistan it was no longer so. I will not argue, but in front-line aviation too

If you look, at least, the reports from Syria, then the pilots of at least Su-25 (and this is army and front-line aviation) NAZ is used. At least NAZ-IR (you can read about it here https://lik-o-dil-es.blogspot.com/2018/03/aviacionnyj-nosimyj-avarijnyj-zapas-naz.html#%D0%9D%D0% 90% D0% 97-% D0% 98% D0% A0). It is true that the information did not come across with the NAZ in the chair.

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

As for the machine, the ideal place is on the side on the right

The machine? How do you imagine that? Some kind of submachine gun, okay.
Although you can find a photo when the AKS-74U was worn in a special loincloth holster. But this seems to be only for helicopter pilots
PS I read in some book that the machine gun in Afghanistan was attached to the harness. On the body, I don't know how they fixed it anymore, only at NAZ I came across.

[vovochkarzhevsky]

Quote: estimata

If you look, at least, the reports from Syria, then the pilots of at least Su-25 (and this is army and front-line aviation) NAZ is used.

Don't confuse army and frontline aviation.

Quote: estimata

The machine? How do you imagine that? Some kind of submachine gun, okay.

Normally, I can imagine, provided that it will not be an ersatz, but a specially designed weapon for the flight crew. Place for a pistol, left breast pocket of the jacket.

Quote: estimata

PS I read in some book that the machine gun in Afghanistan was attached to the harness. On the body, I don't know how they fixed it anymore, only at NAZ I came across.

I tried it, put it on under the pendant. Very uncomfortable. Because just next to it in the cockpit, with a reliable one that you will not forget about it on occasion.

[estimate]

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

Don't confuse army and frontline aviation.

Well ... But this still does not cancel. But NAZs are used ...

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

Normally, I can imagine, provided that it will not be an ersatz, but a specially designed weapon for the flight crew. Place for a pistol, left breast pocket of the jacket.

The size of the pistol and machine gun is slightly different. The submachine gun still did not go anywhere.

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

Because just next to it in the cockpit, with a reliable one that you will not forget about it on occasion.

Well, here it can also interfere.

[Eurosceptic]

It seems to me that the PP to the pilot is like a fifth leg. What tasks can a downed pilot have? Task 1 - shoot yourself. Here you need a small-sized pistol on the body. Task 2 - while waiting for evacuation alone, shoot back alone from a numerically superior enemy armed with standard army weapons - here the only thing that can give chances is a sniper rifle. Task three - when walking on foot in the wild, hunts and fend off the beasts - here, again, a sniper rifle is better. PP is a weapon of assault groups, for buildings, trenches, etc.

[Sevastopol]

Maybe I don’t understand something, but for flyers, isn't it cumbersome? Okay "Kashtan", it has a different cartridge. But what is wrong with PP-2000, for example? And where the "modern solutions" can be seen at the PPK is also not entirely clear. On the contrary, rather, it turned out to be as archaic as possible. The Germans came up with something like this a hundred years ago.

[Moysha]

Bespontovoe gun, pilots better fly with AK

[kytx]

Why does a pilot need 3 Picatinny rails and PBS?
And with such dimensions, you can put a simple Kalash in the name.
In short, the Kalashnikov concern wants money.

[san99san]

I'm not a pilot. But as far as I know, the pilots in NAZ used to have AKSU.

[geologist]

It seems to me that it was created as an analogue of the MP5, which was adopted in 1966 for the German special police and tank crews. This weapon often flickers in the adventure cinema of the end of the last century, but nowadays there are many more bright, futuristic PPs for cinematography. Why is this weapon with 55 years of police experience offered to pilots?

[erased]

Of course, a PP is better for a pilot than a pistol. A better PP would be an assault rifle with a short barrel like the AK-105 or like the Zastava M92 chambered for 7,62x39 with a 254 mm barrel. It is longer than the PPK-20, but its practical range is about 200 meters versus 100 for the PPK. But only practice will show which is better and which is worse. If pilots want such a toy, they know better. In fact, they kind of took the AKSU-74 with them. In a word, a submachine gun cartridge is preferable to a pistol one. This is the experience of many wars.