"This tank Porokhovshchikov"

168

One of the most famous photos, which went around almost all publications of the Soviet era ...

Tanks alternative stories. In Soviet times, namely since 1949, it was considered that the birthday of the tank in Russia is May 18, 1915, when the tests of the "tank A. Porokhovshchikov" "Vezdekhod" began. They wrote that he passed the test successfully. And that the inventor and his associates were ready to "bring" the car to mind soon and even "teach" it to swim. But the inertia of the tsarist military became the reason that Porokhovshchikov's project did not receive support, and was completely ruined due to the "admiration of the noble officers before the West."

Since the photographs of this machine and its drawings (still from the magazine "Tekhnika-youth") are well known to everyone today, there is no point in citing them. Although it should be remembered that there was only one caterpillar track on the All-Terrain Vehicle, at first it was canvas, then rubber, that it was driven by wheels and that it would have been simply impossible to make its body hermetically sealed due to the design features. The tower with the "Maxim" machine gun was added to it later, obviously forgetting that it was possible to shoot from it only with two hands, and then two more hands would be required to control this machine. So it would have been impossible to lead her alone and, in addition, to shoot.



Could not "All-terrain vehicle" and tear the barbed wire. The reasons are simple: the mass is small, its size was tiny, and the caterpillar itself did not inspire confidence. That is, we have an all-terrain vehicle in front of us, and a poorly designed one, and it is not at all surprising that it was rejected!

Moreover, the fact that this is a "tank" was subsequently written by almost the same people as the authors of the 1943 tank design textbook, which said:

"A tank is a combat vehicle that combines armor protection, fire and maneuver."

By the way, there was no armor on the "All-terrain vehicle" either, although Porokhovshchikov offered it and even tested it on ... a wheeled vehicle.

So not every experimental vehicle on one or two tracks is a tank! For example, the British built a smaller model of Hetterington's "cruiser" out of wood, saw what was happening, weighed all the pros and cons, and ... They refused to build a large machine in June 1915.

In the same July 1915, Colonel Engineer Evelen Bell Crompton presented a project of a composite, four-tracked tank with four towers mounted linearly elevated, like the towers of a warship. "Committee of Land Ships" and rejected it. And then he rejected the development of the Canadian engineer Robert Francis McFay. But already the very first project of his machine also provided for a propeller, that is, it was conceived as a floating one! He was also on his other project. It was supposed to lower it if necessary, and to raise it to protect it from damage when hitting the ground. Moreover, they were offered a tracked chassis made of tracks located in the shape of a triangle: one in front and two on the left and right behind.

"This tank Porokhovshchikov"

This is how the tank of the Canadian Francis McFay could look if it was built. Perhaps then the whole world tank building would have gone a completely different path!

The front caterpillar played the role of a steering one, that is, it could turn to the sides and, moreover, change its position in the vertical plane. The second "tank" McFay had four tracks according to the project, with the two front ones located one after the other. The front track was supposed to facilitate overcoming the encountered vertical obstacles, but all the rest - to reduce the pressure of this heavy machine on the ground.

The armament could be installed both in the hull itself and in the sponsons on either side of it. But to the military, its design seemed too complicated. But an interesting tank could have turned out for him, no worse, probably, than a serial Mk. I, and all the other tanks that followed.


The same British at first considered tanks as a kind of ships, and even called them "land fleet". And since the "fleet" and in it there are "tanks - machine gun destroyers" (analogue of destroyers), then they must have their own ... "leader of the flotilla", lead them to attack the enemy. There was a project, but it never appeared in metal!

It is interesting that after Porokhovshchikov was shot, all his papers disappeared in the KGB archives, and what was in them is still unknown today. But another of his projects survived, fortunately, survived in the documents of the GVTU from August of the same 1915, which he named "Earth battleship". Moreover, he offered two vehicles at once: "field battleship" and "serf".


"Ideas are in the air." There was a "Mendeleev's tank" project, and there was a Canadian engineer Stephen Kupchak. True, his armor was thinner, and a gun with a caliber of only 75 mm

Well, he ended up with a very interesting project, albeit completely unrealizable. Even "Tsar Tank" and that, by the way, gives in to him. And if some German had invented it, one can only imagine how he would have been ridiculed in our press for his "gloomy Teutonic genius."

Well, and we will begin to consider it with what we indicate: the armor of a field battleship, according to the author, should have had a thickness that could withstand the hit of shells from field artillery, the second - from the artillery of the fortress. Therefore, it was assumed to be ... 101,6 mm thick!


"Tank Navrotsky" ("Improved Turtle") - a project by engineer S. Navrotsky, proposed in April 1917. Weight - 192 tons. Height - 8,52 m. Length - 11,72 m. Width - 8,52 m. Engine - 150 hp. with. Armament - two 203-mm howitzers, two 152-mm guns, four 102-mm and eight machine guns. Reservation - 20-30 mm. Crew - 60 people

However, what else could you expect from a car that looked, well, just monstrous? She had no body as such. It was replaced by a steel riveted truss 35 meters long and 3 meters wide, to which 10 motor wheels were to be attached, in the form of rollers with a diameter of 2,3 meters each. Naturally made of armored steel. Gasoline engines with a capacity of 160-200 hp were located right in the rollers. with., and there was a transmission and a fuel tank. The total power of the propulsion system would thus have to be equal to 2000 hp. with.

And also our "talented" designer put three more people there: a mechanic who maintains the engine, and two shooters who were supposed to shoot from two machine guns and ... a bomb. That is, the "battleship" was supposed to have 20 machine guns and 10 bombers on each side.

But all this seemed to Porokhovshchikov not enough. And he also installed two armored turrets on his "battleship", armed with two cannons: one 4–6 inch (101,6– 152,4 mm) cannon and a twin gun of a reduced caliber - 47–75 mm. The armored cabin of the battleship commander and all his assistants was in the middle of the farm, and on top of it there was to be a searchlight. The crew of the "field battleship" was supposed to consist of 72 people.


"Field battleship" by A. A. Porokhovshchikov. At least in the prison cell he had something to remember. After all, it was necessary to come up with such a thing ?!

The speed was supposed to be 4,4-21 km / h. The permeability due to the great length had to be great. In any case, Porokhovshchikov believed that the "armadillo" would be able to force ravines and ditches up to 11 m wide. The inventor obviously did not think about the bending loads that his farm would experience.

How would his car turn?

In theory, like any tank, it could do this by braking the rollers on one side. But ... for this, it would be necessary to synchronize the rotation of all rollers, and it was almost impossible to achieve this with the then state of the art. But the author did not forget to put the "battleship" on the railway. Thus, he proposed to resolve the issue with his operational mobility.

"Fortress battleship", in addition to enhanced booking, was also supposed to have an armored casemate for 500 people. Approaching the object of attack and pouring fire on the enemy with machine guns and bombs, the "battleship" landed troops, and a breakthrough of the enemy's defense in this place would certainly be ensured.

After weighing the proposed engineering solutions, the members of the Technical Committee on August 13, 1915 wrote the following:

“… Even without detailed calculations, we can confidently say that the proposal is not feasible. It would be advisable for use in a combat situation to distribute the armament of the battleship into separate mobile units that are not linked into one rigid system. "

Usually the inventors of such "super cars" do not accept criticism and fight for them "to the end." But here Porokhovshchikov agreed with the proposal for "distribution among the links", and by the end of 1915 he presented another project of the "Earth battleship", already from "articulated links" or armored platforms, "capable of deviating from each other in all directions."

It turned out ... a real "articulated tank" with armament in the towers and with wheelhouses for the landing - an unattainable dream for designers even today. Now each "site" had only two pairs of rollers and a turret with weapons. But the Committee did not consider this project either. However, even this is not surprising, but the fact that all projects were proposed not by some drop-out student, but by an engineer with a completed higher technical education, and he should have understood how stupid and inoperative everything that was offered to them was ...

Probably, only the project of a drum-wheel of a certain S. Podolsky, in October of the same 1915, offered a car in the form of a six-meter roller, was more stupid, but a whole company of soldiers who were inside him had to push it at the enemy! To fire at the enemy scattering in horror, turrets with machine guns should have been marked at the ends of the rink ... Forward to Berlin?

So this was what the "real Porokhovshchikov's tank" was, but for some reason no one wrote about this in 1949.
168 comments
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  1. +8
    13 August 2021 18: 12
    According to the memoirs of his grandson, Porokhovshchikov collected money for the construction of his "all-terrain vehicle" in various ways. Once, even on a dare, lay down under a passing freight train!
    That's how passionate the person was with his idea.
    Now, from the height of our knowledge, it is easy for us to understand that the project was a failure ...
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich.
    1. +5
      13 August 2021 19: 26
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      According to the memoirs of his grandson, Porokhovshchikov collected money for the construction of his "all-terrain vehicle" in various ways.

      Have you forgotten Porokhovshchikov's eroplan? request
  2. +7
    13 August 2021 18: 27
    But the actor A. Sh. Prokhovshchikov considered his ancestor an unrecognized genius.
    Well, what to take from a relative ...
    1. +5
      13 August 2021 20: 18
      You can understand a relative, if now in this photo, in this trough, my great-great-grandfather was sitting, I would also consider him a genius)))).
    2. 0
      16 September 2021 20: 01
      They were worth each other.
  3. +26
    13 August 2021 18: 36
    To the list - there is not enough "tsar-tank" Lebedenko.
    To the author - do you remember, Vyacheslav Olegovich, what kind of PR did Lebedenko do to his brainchild? As Professor Katorin and his comrades rightly wrote, Lebedenko came to the unfortunate tsar with a manufactured model of his brainchild. For two hours the autocrat and the inventor crawled on the floor of the office, substituting on the way to follow the model volumes of the Code of Laws of the Russian Empire, carefully taken out by the emperor from the cabinet ...
    Colleagues, the only genius in the then armored vehicles of Russia was the head of the Officer Rifle School - General Nikolai Filatov. He offered the best solutions - in the development of armored cars. The Armored Commission headed by him had plans to purchase Renault tanks, but this was prevented by the Revolution and subsequent events ...
    The general-beard died already in the USSR, in honor and respect, by the way!
    And ... he also brought up the designers of the small arms, which then broke the back of the Wehrmacht. First Fedorova. Then Degtyareva and Simonov.
    We forgot Filatov. And without him there would be no domestic machine guns or our armored vehicles ... soldier
    1. +4
      13 August 2021 18: 52
      Besides FT-17, what could we buy and use?
      "Schneider" was "very specific" and did not produce many of them. 400 pieces can be said a lot, but you can say not enough for the French Republic itself.
      For the production of BA in the RI itself, the most important thing was missing - the production of special chassis for these BAs.
      We supplied our army with a large number of trucks, but there were still few of them, despite the purchases from outside. "
      During WWI there was a charity in Ingushetia, but whether there were special fees for "armored vehicle columns", as in the Second World War, I do not know.
      But if the pyrims of the Bolshoi and Maly or simple "actresses" and their "owners" shook the money ...
      Or those of the "Great Russians" who found themselves in the FR or Switzerland brought a "small slice" for the needs of the army of their fatherland ...
      But the history of WWI ended long ago !!!
      1. +8
        13 August 2021 19: 17
        Besides FT-17, what could we buy and use?
        "Schneider" was "very specific" and did not produce many of them. 400 pieces can be said a lot, but you can say not enough for the French Republic itself.

        Hi Alexey! drinks I'm glad to see you!
        At first, the Armored Commission wanted to buy "Schneiders", but, having quickly figured out the problems of this armored product, stopped at the purchase of machine-gun "Renault".
        For the production of BA in the RI itself, the most important thing was missing - the production of special chassis for these BAs.

        We bought foreign BAs. Austin became the main one. Experienced in the same OSH (Officer Rifle School), the head of which was Filatov.
        Look. Here is "Austin" under the name "Infernal", tested in the SNS in 1915

        But the armored car that "surfaced" during the uprising of the Czechoslovakians in 1918, under the same name - "Infernal" ... In Penza ... Apparently, the same one. One turret was removed, a course machine gun was installed instead. Drawing by A. Sheps, I thank our Vyacheslav Olegovich.
        1. +3
          13 August 2021 20: 20
          Good evening!
          "Austin" of the first series. Maybe it was broken and then rebuilt!
          And yet, purchasing and own production are two different things!
          Chassis like "Garfords" were no longer purchased after the purchase of 30 pieces!
          1. +2
            13 August 2021 20: 25
            Chassis like "Garfords" were no longer purchased after the purchase of 30 pieces!

            Fifty. Having seen enough of the land armored cars, the sailors ordered twenty more - for the defense of the "Sea Fortress of Peter the Great". Probably, other chassis were used, but from the same company "Garford".

            "Garford" "Invincible" from the Armored Artillery Division of the Land Front of the Naval Fortress of Emperor Peter the Great, captured by the Germans near Riga. August 1917 (photo provided by S. Kirilets). This is from Kolomiets.
            1. 0
              13 August 2021 21: 14
              So as not to get lost: "Gardfod" bm was suitable as a base for an armored car. And others just didn't pull
              1. +1
                13 August 2021 23: 13
                So as not to get lost: "Gardfod" bm was suitable as a base for an armored car. And others just didn't pull

                No, there was a whole variety of armored cars. And we, in general, are champions in this diversity. drinks
        2. 0
          13 August 2021 20: 30
          And hello to you hi
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          The main one was "Austin"

          Sclerosis insistently whispers that the main one was Putilovsky on the Austin chassis. The difference is in the diagonal towers.
          1. +5
            13 August 2021 20: 51
            Sclerosis insistently whispers that the main one was Putilovsky on the Austin chassis. The difference is in the diagonal towers.

            No, the main ones were the British. Putilovsky promised a fourth episode, but since in 1917 everyone who wished instead of work (where is the Tatra that has already dirtied at least two sites with their comments?) Marched with banners, the order was fulfilled by the Izhora plant ...
            That is, the name is not deserved. negative
            I could be wrong. Read Kolomiets. drinks
            1. +2
              13 August 2021 21: 55
              I'm going to read everything Kolomiets
              1. +1
                13 August 2021 22: 04
                I'm going to read everything Kolomiets

                Here is a book on Russian armored vehicles PMV. I bought it in 2015. There he corrected the error on Gulkevich's armored vehicle.
          2. +4
            13 August 2021 21: 03
            The chassis for "Austin-Putilovets" were ordered in the amount of 60 pieces!
            And they collected only 33 BA.
            And they did not have time to go to the front of the First World War.
          3. +4
            13 August 2021 21: 34
            By the way, about the "birds" ... "Austin-Putilovtsy" were tads and on the tracks! (I mean half-tracked ...)

            There were, of course, other samples ... but they were few ...



            The latter also used tractors ...
        3. +1
          13 August 2021 21: 28
          "Austin" under the name "Hellish" then everyone had a "personal" name, but what about that in Germany or France: were there personal names too? Or was it just a Russian tradition?
          1. +5
            13 August 2021 21: 38
            Or was it just a Russian tradition?

            The captured our armored cars (I must say, the overwhelming majority of them were captured in 1917-18, during the collapse of the front) were called by the Germans. And their own tanks too.

            That is, we can assume that the names were assigned ..
            My friends, what a joy it is to have a normal discussion! I bow to you! good drinks
            ... do not forget to just remind me so that I can teach my friend Anton 3x3zsave how to hold an esponton! Proudly! drinks
      2. Alf
        +5
        13 August 2021 21: 45
        Quote: hohol95
        For the production of BA in the RI itself, the most important thing was missing - the production of special chassis for these BAs.

        And motors.
        Quote: hohol95
        Or those of the "Great Russians" who found themselves in the FR or Switzerland brought a "small slice" for the needs of the army of their fatherland ...

        How are you talking about modern Russia ...
        1. +1
          14 August 2021 11: 06
          How are you talking about modern Russia ...

          Darkness, to be honest. Worse than with royal relatives. Feast in Time of Plague...
          1. Alf
            +3
            14 August 2021 11: 27
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            Feast in Time of Plague...

            Like the last day. They think, and suddenly, or rather, when the king dies, what will happen? Suddenly another will drive away from the trough ...
            P.S. Good afternoon ! hi
            1. +5
              14 August 2021 11: 40
              P.S. Good afternoon !

              Hey! Right. Comrade Stalin would have dealt with the degenerates, who were completely stunned and stunned, faster ...
              But ... I don't like to discuss politics. I propose to discuss the article! drinks
              Have you heard of Jeffery?
              1. Alf
                +1
                14 August 2021 11: 41
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                Have you heard of Jeffery?

                Counter question, what exactly about Jeffrey?
                1. +4
                  14 August 2021 12: 08
                  Counter question, what exactly about Jeffrey?

                  No, I'm not talking about Joffrey Baratheon laughing

                  So, in 1915 (I could be wrong!) Officer Viktor Poplavko booked an American four-wheel drive (!) Jeffery truck. The prototype was named "The Wizard". And I tested it at the SNR test site. As we already know from the comments, Filatov was the senior at the SNR.

                  Poplavko himself gets out of the cockpit when the armored car got stuck in our mud during testing.
                  Poplavko also proposed new tactics. Thirty vehicles approach the enemy trenches at dawn. Cats installed on them tear the wire. In the back of each armored car sits an assault group armed with Mausers (apparently, Poplavko had a pistol in mind), grenades and daggers. The motorized infantry throws grenades and rushes into the trenches. The first line is captured. Armored cars build light bridges, carried on themselves, through the trenches, and move on. The same is repeated with the next rows of trenches. And behind the armored cars is a dense line of infantry - Poplavko promised that there would be no fire on it.
                  The machines were made and brought together into the Special Division. But he never completed his mission to break through the front!
                  Some armored cars were captured by the Austro-Hungarians during the collapse of the front in 17, some were Ukrainianized. Most of them fought on the fronts of the Civil.

                  But, seriously speaking, Poplavko was the first to suggest mechanized infantry tactics! Or assault squads!
                  1. Alf
                    0
                    14 August 2021 12: 11
                    Quote: Pane Kohanku
                    Poplavko was the first to

                    I heard, of course. 4x4 is, of course, gorgeous.
                    1. +4
                      14 August 2021 12: 13
                      4x4 is, of course, gorgeous.

                      In those days, even revolutionary.
                      I heard, of course.

                      It would be possible to make a similar car and on the basis of the half-track "Austin" ... But this is so, my dreams! Yes
                      1. +2
                        14 August 2021 18: 33
                        Damn, buddy! Today I looked. And I was horrified, really! I'm idiotic! In the general army? And you, with your knowledge, humor and so on, so on, so on. With three stars ?????????? !!!! !! ¡About site! About mores !!!!
                      2. +1
                        14 August 2021 18: 36
                        The word "d.u.r.a.k .." is looped, right! laughing
                      3. +1
                        15 August 2021 21: 36
                        About the site! About the customs !!!!

                        Returned, prodigal son VO? Thank you for your kind words, dear! drinks It's time for you to write! good
                      4. +2
                        14 August 2021 20: 41
                        4x4 is it you tell Americans 14-15th year Jeffery Armored Car No.1 on Jeffery Quad chassis the second version was released for Canada 40 cars in 16 turned out to be used in Britain as police officers in Ireland and India.

                  2. +2
                    14 August 2021 18: 20
                    These are all Poplavko's dreams, the low-power Jeffrey / Nash Quadro chassis of 28 HP failed, which was enough only for an armored cabin with machine guns and that's it. I didn't even pull the tower, although I'm lying, Poplavko perched a tower from Lanchestker into a civil one for one BA.
                    In the states, this turret chassis pulled only 5mm of armor.
        2. +2
          14 August 2021 12: 31
          and bearings. And as a consequence
          And motors.
          hi
    2. +14
      13 August 2021 18: 52
      Hi, Nikolai. hi
      Nikolai Mikhailovich has not been forgotten, at least among us, fans of small arms and military equipment. The Soviet government also paid tribute to him, conferring the title of Hero of Labor (1928), he passed away as a very respected person.
      I do not know why Porokhovshchikov was shot, but the would-be designer Lebedenko should have been placed against one wall to him, so that all other projectors would not seem like honey to all the other projectors.

      N.M. Filatov (center, not a general yet). smile
      1. +11
        13 August 2021 19: 27
        The Soviet government also paid tribute to him, conferring the title of Hero of Labor (1928), he passed away as a very respected person.

        Uncle Kostya, I disagree with this common opinion. hi I could not find documents on the awarding of the title of "hero of labor" for him in the network. stop But Nikolai Mikhailovich was definitely awarded the Order of the Red Banner of Labor of the RSFSR ... what

        Here is this order on the chest of the former beard general:

        On the order there is an inscription - "To the Hero of Labor".
        I would venture to suggest that he was awarded an order, and the title was already thought out by those who typeset the articles, and it walks through the sites. request Although this does not in the least detract from the merits of the old thinker general! soldier
        I have been studying Filatov for two years ... So, for information. bully
        1. +5
          13 August 2021 20: 21
          I have been studying Filatov for two years.


          And then - where is the article?
          1. +6
            13 August 2021 20: 27
            And then - where is the article?

            I just can't finish. More than 25 pages, more than 30 photos .... Samsonov, Ryabov and Ivanova - I ask you not to go into the topic! One hell, it won't work ... bully
            1. +1
              15 August 2021 22: 42
              We are waiting, dear comrade!
              1. +1
                19 August 2021 20: 39
                We are waiting, dear comrade!

                Well, Filatov still needs to be finished ... I dropped it already at the end of what I wrote ... recourse
                But under Pal Petrovich - I'm waiting! drinks
                https://topwar.ru/185632-shagi-imperatora-gatchinskij-gamlet.html
      2. +5
        13 August 2021 21: 52
        I practically did not hear anything about Filatov. In his youth and Fedorov, there was practically no information
        1. +3
          13 August 2021 21: 55
          It's all on the net, if you're interested, come in and read it. We also read not secret books. smile
          1. +2
            13 August 2021 21: 57
            Fig knows you.Perhaps you are generally the secret of the secret
            1. +1
              13 August 2021 22: 10
              Well then, the "fig" is also secret. bully
        2. +4
          13 August 2021 22: 25
          I practically did not hear anything about Filatov. In his youth and Fedorov, there was practically no information

          Without Filatov, there would have been neither Fedorov, nor Degtyarev, nor Tokarev ... what They are creators. And Nikolai Mikhailovich was an administrator-thinker who covered them with his beard and gave them the "green light" for all undertakings. good
          Degtyarev, it was Filatov who figured it out. A machine gun jammed during the recruits' exercise. Degtyarev, as a weapons master - a conscript, and repaired. Myself! Filatov, as he learned, demanded him to his rifle range SNSH. Then he assigned him to Fedorov - by the same master gunsmith. Yes
          But the perspicacious Filatov would not have thought .. Then Degtyarev would have gone to feed the Japanese bullets! request
          Vasily Degtyarev, uniform from the times of the Russian-Japanese war:
        3. +1
          16 August 2021 19: 45
          Quote: vladcub
          I practically did not hear anything about Filatov. In his youth and Fedorov, there was practically no information

          Bolotin devotes a whole page to Filatov in his "Soviet Small Arms", and he is characterized as an outstanding theoretician and practitioner of small arms, who largely contributed to the success of the work of the first Soviet weapons designers.
    3. +8
      13 August 2021 18: 55
      Colleagues, the only genius in the then armored vehicles of Russia was the head of the Officer Rifle School - General Nikolai Filatov.
      Nikolai has been writing an article about him for a year. laughing
      Hello, Vlad! hi
      1. +6
        13 August 2021 20: 08
        And for an hour and a half he has been writing me a sarcastic answer. laughing
        1. +5
          13 August 2021 20: 13
          And for an hour and a half he has been writing me a sarcastic answer.

          Oh you, friend! Never mind, I'll teach you how to hold an esponton ... bully
          1. +2
            13 August 2021 20: 23
            In the Russian army, he was originally a protazan ...
            1. +3
              13 August 2021 20: 29
              In the Russian army, he was originally a protazan ...

              Yes, in the 17th - early 18th century. Further, from the 30s of the 18th century - esponton. There was a separate Santa Barbara. They took them off and on. request
              1. +2
                13 August 2021 20: 56
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                In the Russian army, he was originally a protazan ...

                from the 30s of the 18th century - esponton.

                Forgotten the halberd again! request
                1. +3
                  13 August 2021 20: 58
                  Forgotten the halberd again!

                  The evolution of its blade in the 18th century is interesting! She almost became a protazan ... Serega Mikhailov (Mihaylov) - in the subject, he has a lot of photos, taken with his own hand. good But our Anton "3x3zsave" will have an esponton! laughing drinks
              2. +1
                13 August 2021 21: 23
                Comrades, I'm a "teapot" here. Answer, what is the practical use of paved? As a status, but from a modern point of view, dibilism was then
                1. +2
                  13 August 2021 21: 32
                  As a status, but from a modern point of view, dibilism was then

                  Svyatoslav, exactly what was of status in the 17-18th centuries. By this weapon it was possible to distinguish the officer in the confusion of the battle, it was possible to line up on it (the protazan-esponton), it was possible to get a shaft from him on the butt. And to the officer himself - it was possible to lay down the enemy, even on foot, even on horseback! And this weapon in the films was forgotten!

                  Here the third reflects the attack of the Reiters at Rocroix in the work of a modern artist, but we see an officer's protazan in the center of the formation ... soldier
          2. +2
            13 August 2021 20: 33
            It happened before. Where am I, a private, to "Captain Mikhailov"? tongue laughing
            1. +2
              13 August 2021 20: 47
              It happened before. Where am I, a private, to "Captain Mikhailov"?

              Don't make the captain a monster. stop
              There are simply plans ... And you, as my friend, will keep the esponton! bully
              1. +2
                13 August 2021 21: 06
                Yes schazzz! My destiny is chain mail, "chapel le fer", spear and "bastard"!
                "Hold the line, (illegitimate children of the female dog)! Hold the line !!!"
                1. +4
                  13 August 2021 21: 09
                  "Hold the line, (illegitimate children of the female dog)! Hold the line !!!"

                  It is for this that the esponton was created ... what Buckles will suit you better than chain mail! request
                  1. +1
                    13 August 2021 21: 18
                    Eh, no!
                    The espoton was created for sergeants, servants dealt with subordinates with voice and authority.
                    1. +4
                      13 August 2021 21: 26
                      The espoton was created for sergeants, servants dealt with subordinates with voice and authority.

                      Hold on laughing Esponton, like the protazan, was created specifically for officers. For sergeants, the halberd evolved. drinks
                      1. +3
                        13 August 2021 21: 38
                        Okay, okay, calm down, mister captain ... My business is "keep the line", yours is to speculate about the ritual armament of the superiors above me, sirem.
                      2. +2
                        13 August 2021 21: 41
                        Yours is to speculate about the ritual weapons of the superiors above me, sirem.

                        What would I do without you! Thank you for everything! You will see ... drinks
                      3. +2
                        13 August 2021 21: 46
                        What would I do without you!
                        I would live long, serenely and happily!
                      4. +2
                        14 August 2021 11: 10
                        I would live long, serenely and happily!

                        And we had a good walk yesterday! Here is a forum with sane and complacent people, which we, our company, have been trying to create for five years ... good drinks
                      5. +1
                        14 August 2021 11: 13
                        Well, some of them are trying to do something even in "real life" ... feel
                      6. +1
                        14 August 2021 11: 15
                        Well, some of them are trying to do something even in "real life" ...

                        I am a beech and a sociopath. stop But next weekend I suggest we go to the museum together. Never been to the new Naval.
                      7. +1
                        14 August 2021 11: 18
                        As "Kid" says: I am for any boil, except hunger strike!
                      8. +1
                        15 August 2021 21: 40
                        As "Kid" says: I am for any boil, except hunger strike!

                        Kid, do you still have jam? belay
                      9. +1
                        15 August 2021 21: 42
                        Only meatballs
                      10. +1
                        15 August 2021 21: 48
                        Only meatballs

                        A miracle happened! fellow
                      11. +1
                        15 August 2021 22: 49
                        Pan, in Moscow or St. Petersburg ....? they are both Naval ...
                      12. +1
                        19 August 2021 20: 40
                        Pan, in Moscow or St. Petersburg ....? they are both Naval ...

                        Petersburg. Anton and I live in St. Petersburg. With respect, Nicholai.
                      13. +2
                        14 August 2021 13: 29
                        And to you the halberd of the sergeant, capternamus or corporal?
                      14. +2
                        14 August 2021 13: 34
                        And this is not for me, Alexey. This is for the captain. He is a great connoisseur of polearms.
                      15. +2
                        14 August 2021 13: 40
                        Then he is mottled with a white brush. The color of his rank.
                        And I have the reins in my hands and the thinnest horse with a cart.
                        As well as the "brave observer"!
                      16. +3
                        14 August 2021 13: 45
                        Why are you so derogatory about the ferrymen? For example, I respect General Khrulev very much.
                      17. +2
                        14 August 2021 14: 53
                        So I respect all home front workers and servicemen of the Home Front Service!
                        I wrote personally about myself - "a limited year to serve in wartime"!
                      18. +3
                        14 August 2021 15: 11
                        Well, okay. I have one of my grandfathers, the same. He was commissioned for health reasons, but spent the whole war at the factory, apart from his family.
                      19. +2
                        15 August 2021 21: 42
                        And to you the halberd of the sergeant, capternamus or corporal?

                        I sit reading literature. About Paul is getting more and more wonderful ...
                        The author Yurkevich has an opinion that Friedrich's admirers (at least those who sympathized with him as a military man) were Rumyantsev, and Pyotr Panin (the brother of the Tsarevich's chief educator), and Repnin (the one who would later attend the officer's school founded by the emperor). And MF Kamensky - he, especially, having visited Prussia, at the table with Nikita Panin, gave a detailed account of the military camp there.
                        And all these faces are those who were present at the Grand Duke of childhood!
                        It turns out that the discharged Potemkin and Alexander Vasilyevich, who loved to be happy, found themselves in sad loneliness!
                      20. +1
                        16 August 2021 12: 19
                        Already the benefit of the film: I assumed that De Ribas was not very happy that he was sent to the Forestry Department.

                        This thing by Merezhkovsky did not go 30 years ago. Try again?
              2. +1
                16 August 2021 12: 06
                Perhaps, for the sake of Yankovsky, you can see more.
                Poor Pavel.
                1. +1
                  19 August 2021 20: 41
                  Perhaps, for the sake of Yankovsky, you can see more.

                  And for the sake of Sukhorukov! Both are gorgeous! good
        2. +4
          13 August 2021 20: 16
          And what - it happens that Moose and Moose also go in pairs?
          1. +2
            13 August 2021 20: 53
            And what - it happens that Moose and Moose also go in pairs?

            If you're talking about me and Anton - it's true. Yes
            1. +2
              13 August 2021 21: 58
              Sure. There can be no interpretation options.
          2. +3
            13 August 2021 20: 56
            "Tamara and I are a couple,
            Tamara and I are passing by. "
            1. +3
              13 August 2021 21: 07
              "Tamara and I are nurses!
              Tamara heals-
              I roar "...
              1. +3
                13 August 2021 21: 29
                When Kolya begins to "heal", I really roar. From good envy.
                1. +2
                  13 August 2021 21: 50
                  When Kolya begins to "heal", I really roar. From good envy.

                  Offended. I’m only half a bump, and you’re already roaring ... tongue Shhh - Don't tell the Sea Cat! lol
                  You begin to write ... And we will all be happy. And then Samsonov and Ivanov have been tortured for a week in the "History" section. sad And I really only learned many things from you - at least about marble ... request
                  1. +1
                    13 August 2021 21: 57
                    half a bite
                    "Bumps" are different ...
                    1. +1
                      13 August 2021 22: 16
                      "Bumps" are different ...

                      I'm quiet ... tongue
                      1. +1
                        13 August 2021 22: 19
                        "Spilled" Pakistani "plasticine"?
                      2. +1
                        13 August 2021 22: 20
                        "Spilled" Pakistani "plasticine"?

                        VicNick calls it "soot cowardly." laughing
                      3. +1
                        13 August 2021 22: 30
                        I think VikNik began to understand the subject long before I became interested in women. The term "cowardly soot" was born in the mid-sixties, at the end of the "dudes".
                      4. +1
                        13 August 2021 22: 35
                        The term "cowardly soot" was born in the mid-sixties, at the end of the "dandy".

                        I see you are more savvy in terms than he ... laughing
                      5. +1
                        13 August 2021 22: 39
                        Undoubtedly, I was in jail for knowing these terms.
                      6. +1
                        13 August 2021 22: 54
                        Undoubtedly, I was in jail for knowing these terms.

                        That made you no less friend of Captain M. ...
                      7. +1
                        13 August 2021 23: 01
                        I have never concealed that I am a renegade, a renegade and a miserable. Our friendship is your choice. Thank you!
                      8. +1
                        13 August 2021 23: 10
                        I have never concealed that I am a renegade, a renegade and a miserable.

                        And I have never hidden that you are cooler than the "golden knight" Nikolai Koster-Waldau. drinks And even ... cooler than the icon of the 80s - Michael Pare! good You remember, I treat this artist with special trepidation ... wink Let's run through the fire! drinks
                      9. +1
                        13 August 2021 23: 22
                        Don't flatter me. I can light up a company for a "dash", but no more.
                      10. +1
                        13 August 2021 23: 25
                        I can light up a company for a "dash", but no more.

                        I will rewrite "Asses on fire, or a vampire ball" with 80% novelty with your photos, and again I will give it to "VO" ... good You are in the lead role! drinks
                      11. +1
                        13 August 2021 23: 36
                        Don't rewrite, you won't drink so much today. tongue
                      12. +1
                        13 August 2021 23: 54
                        Don't rewrite, you won't drink so much today.

                        This was the best article ever ... wink
                      13. +1
                        14 August 2021 00: 27
                        Don't rewrite, you won't drink so much today


                        You were filming that? I will find out!

            2. +1
              13 August 2021 21: 59
              "Nurse: call Tamarka" (c).
              1. +2
                13 August 2021 22: 03
                Well, yes.
                "Leaves are falling from the trees.
                Anyhow. Shikos-nakos. "(C)
          3. +3
            13 August 2021 21: 48
            It happens.
            "Misfortune never comes alone".
            1. +2
              13 August 2021 22: 00
              “Father, do you hear, chops.
              And I take it away ”(c).
              1. +3
                13 August 2021 22: 08
                "Eh, you are the fate of the ship,
                Say: "Fire!"
                They will answer: "(M) la!" "(S)
                1. +2
                  13 August 2021 23: 39
                  "Prepare your souls for hand-to-hand combat" (c).
                  1. +3
                    13 August 2021 23: 45
                    "Pendalf, in our time everything is decided by tank wedges and tactical nuclear strikes!" (C)
                    1. +3
                      13 August 2021 23: 48
                      “- I don’t know how your Nimtsiovich is defending himself” (From “Yabeda-Koryabeda”).
    4. +2
      13 August 2021 23: 11
      Quote: Pane Kohanku
      And ... he also brought up the designers of the small arms, which then broke the back of the Wehrmacht. First Fedorova. Then Degtyareva and Simonov.

      Why attribute too much to Filatov. As the head of the Rifle Range of the Officer Rifle School, he crossed paths with many designers of domestic small arms, but no more
      1. +2
        13 August 2021 23: 50
        According request than to ascribe too much to Filatov. As the head of the Rifle Range of the Officer Rifle School, he crossed paths with many designers of domestic small arms, but no more

        Sergey, look! I post my own opinion. Filatov not only crossed paths, he took Fedorov, Degtyarev and Tokarev under his tutelage. They created their first works on the basis of the SNR.
        Roschepey, too, he "discharged" there.
        Filatov was also fond of the theory of shooting, and before that, such experiments were performed only with muzzle-loading rifles ... The last edition of his works was in 1944, when he had long been lying in the grave.
        Plus, he also designed a number of domestic armored cars. He also adopted a 76-mm short cannon for their armament, which will quite live up to the mid-30s as a support weapon.

        The same gun, with changes and additions ... request

        Do you want to argue for Filatov? I am your! good Sincerely yours, come to the "history" section. With respect, Nicholai! drinks "Plus" - put ... wink
        1. +2
          14 August 2021 00: 37
          What kind of custody? Both Fedorov and Tokarev were already established specialists, and Degtyarev was noticed and promoted by the same Fedorov.
          In addition, N.I. Filatov became the head of the SNR in 1915. Prior to that, he was the head of the rifle range.
          1. +2
            14 August 2021 00: 58
            and Degtyarev was noticed and promoted by the same Fedorov.

            Degtyarev was attached to Fedorov by Filatov. And don't argue. No need, my friend ... drinks
            In addition, N.I. Filatov became the head of the SNR in 1915. Prior to that, he was the head of the rifle range.

            Yes. And before that he managed to finish a bunch of other good deeds. For example, with the same Degtyarev and Tokarev ...
            Pay attention - the Soviet government without further ado invited Nikolai Mikhailovich to lead the courses "Shot". hi
            1. +2
              14 August 2021 12: 38
              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              Degtyarev was attached to Fedorov by Filatov.

              Fedorov served in the GAU Armory Department and already had a number of monographs on firearms and melee weapons. Filatov provided him with a locksmith in a workshop at the training ground, which turned out to be Degtyarev.
              By the way, Tokarev worked on an automatic rifle alone, he was not provided with a locksmith.

              So let's dwell on the fact that Filatov "has done a bunch of other good deeds." And let's not pretend to be pretentious:

              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              And ... he also brought up the designers of the small arms, which then broke the back of the Wehrmacht. First Fedorova. Then Degtyareva and Simonov.

              By the way, what side did Simonov get there?

              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              Pay attention - the Soviet government without further ado invited Nikolai Mikhailovich to lead the courses "Shot".

              So what? The Soviet government invited many of the pre-revolutionary specialists. The Soviet government entrusted the same Fedorov with completing the construction of the Kovrov arms factory and organizing the production of the Fedorov assault rifle there.
              1. +1
                15 August 2021 21: 27
                By the way, what side did Simonov get there?

                This I honestly admit to you, I sealed myself on the "blue eye" request
                and organize the release of the Fedorov assault rifle on it.

                The issue there is not that big and was, I must admit. hi
                So let's dwell on the fact that Filatov "has done a bunch of other good deeds." And let's not pretend to be pretentious

                Dear Sergey, I am not pretentious about this. Pretentiously, just said Filatov himself - according to Fedorov! laughing
                I'm talking about a romantic general who did a lot for our Motherland. Exactly, as the man who supported the undertakings in rapid-fire weapons. With respect, Nicholai! drinks
                Filatov provided him with a locksmith in a workshop at the training ground, which turned out to be Degtyarev.

                Yes, but the same Filatov noticed Degtyarev! hi
                1. +2
                  15 August 2021 23: 00
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  The issue there is not that big and was, I must admit.

                  Maybe compared to the production of KORDs and small, but 3200 pcs. not so little.
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  .... I am not pretentious

                  You re-read your posts: "brought up", "took under his wing", "subscribed" (Roschepeya), "was their administrator. Producer, PR manager, mother and nanny rolled into one." Yes

                  Degtyarev began to form as a designer-gunsmith under the leadership of Fedorov, and at Filatov he was one of three locksmiths in a workshop at the training ground.
                  And Tokarev generally worked on self-loading in the workshop of the SNR, and not at the training ground, and no one provided a locksmith to help him.

                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  I'm talking about a romantic general who did a lot for our Motherland. Exactly, as the man who supported the undertakings in rapid-fire weapons.

                  So they would talk about the real affairs of Nikolai Mikhailovich, and not about how he provided the locksmith to Fedorov.
                  You too, let your neighbor use the tool, and then you will tell - "what kind of master did you bring up." wassat
          2. +1
            14 August 2021 11: 20
            Both Fedorov and Tokarev were already established specialists

            I will add that they created their first samples within the walls of the SNS. With the full patronage of Filatov. They - created. He was their administrator. Producer, PR manager, mother and nanny rolled into one. good
            We would not know them if it were not for the caring dreamer Filatov. drinks
            Remember Captain Mosin's oxymoron?
            1. +2
              14 August 2021 12: 52
              Well, Filatov still helped Fedorov, but the fact that he patronized Tokarev is hard to believe.
              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              We would not know them if it were not for the caring dreamer Filatov

              laughing Tokarev is known for his TT pistol and SVT rifle. Here Filatov does not go sideways in any way.
              lol And with Fedorov it is even more interesting. Not so wide a circle of Filatov is known as the author of the name "machine" for "hand-held machine gun" Fedorov.
              1. 0
                15 August 2021 21: 33
                Tokarev is known for his TT pistol and SVT rifle. Here Filatov does not go sideways in any way.

                Tokarev began to create seriously - it was in the SNR. Therefore, we can assume that Filatov was aware of his activities. And the fact that Tokarev's weapons did not receive the due glory is just a law of history ... How can you say ... for the general environment. But the gun wasn’t so bad. With him, just, the war in Berlin and ended ... I fired from it - in comparison with the regular PM, the handle of the TT is uncomfortable! request
                And with Fedorov it is even more interesting. Not so wide a circle of Filatov is known as the author of the name "machine" for "hand-held machine gun" Fedorov.

                It seems so! good
                That is, weapons have their own history. For not the best examples of Fedorov and Tokarev, other types of small arms were released - much more successful. Already by other designers who have drawn conclusions. How old was AK? drinks
                1. +1
                  16 August 2021 11: 44
                  If you are such a fan of Filatov, then tell us about his real affairs, and do not guess - was he aware of Tokarev's works or not? Of course there was, because somewhere it was necessary to shoot a sample, and where else if not at the training ground, which Filatov was in charge of.
                  But whether it helped - a baaaal question. Tokarev did not work in the workshop of the landfill and no one allocated a locksmith to help him.

                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  And the fact that Tokarev's weapons did not receive the due glory is just a law of history ... How do you say ... If you philosophize - Tokarev made those samples with which our army started the war (I mean SVT), but did not gain glory from- for the general environment.

                  How it "didn't get the fame it deserved." The TT is still produced in a number of countries, and the SVT is popular among those who like to shoot, unfortunately not ours.
                  By the way, SVT ended the war by finishing off Japan. She was simply in service with the fleet, where the most technically competent recruits were selected.

                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  That is, weapons have their own history. For not the best examples of Fedorov and Tokarev, other types of small arms were released - much more successful. Already by other designers who have drawn conclusions. How old was AK?

                  For their time, these were the best examples.
                  And about the AK - not a very good example, this is not one sample, but the history of the development of the design. AK / AKM and AK-74 in general in different calibers.
                  With the transition from a mass army to a compact, highly mobile army, the requirements for small arms change, and the old AK-74 no longer satisfies them.
  4. +7
    13 August 2021 18: 39
    I am not going to judge about the "real" Porokhovshchikov's tank. I just found out about him (well, it’s clear that it’s nonsense), but let’s remember the same "talented" research - the Tsar Tank, Mendeleev's tank, the Rybinsk plant's tank. Why they were popularized in Soviet times is difficult to understand, but Gulkevich's tank is not so bad (even good for that time, well, if you only add 2-6 millimeters of armor), it's a pity they didn't build much.
    1. +11
      13 August 2021 19: 57
      Tsar-tank, Mendeleev's tank, Rybinsk plant tank. Why they were popularized in Soviet times is difficult to understand
      Popularized in the Book of Future Commanders, but in the heading Our Tank Museum of the journal Tekhnika-Molodezhi, about these tanks, it was written quite objectively, the same objective information is given in the book Mostovenko V.D. Tanks.
      1. +6
        13 August 2021 20: 18
        Popularized in the Book of Future Commanders

        Alexey Anatolyevich, take a look at the book "Unique and Paradoxical Military Equipment" under the general editorship of Katorin (wrote for "Science and Technology", there have been no articles for a long time - for he is a large pensioner).
        So, the first "all-terrain vehicle", according to my memory, had a caterpillar of cloth. belay And the turn was carried out with poles, which the crew wielded on the sides. I think in the second - little has changed, just now there are four wheels what
        This machine was not suitable for combat ... Yes, in some ways it was revolutionary ... But - it would have been little successful! hi
        1. +2
          14 August 2021 07: 55
          hi Thank you, I'll take a look ... so that it is not very successful and was written in the heading and at Mostvenko
          1. +1
            14 August 2021 11: 13
            Thank you, I'll take a look ... so that it is not very successful and was written in the heading and at Mostvenko

            With pleasure I will send it to you, downloaded. Throw mail in a personal. drinks
            1. +2
              14 August 2021 17: 03
              Thanks in advance drinks
      2. +4
        13 August 2021 20: 24
        There was also a "Book of Future Captains"!
        1. Alf
          +5
          13 August 2021 21: 51
          Quote: hohol95
          There was also a "Book of Future Captains"!

          Admirals.
          1. +3
            13 August 2021 22: 01
            There was also a "Book of Future Captains"!

            A. Mityaev wrote about both admirals and commanders. wrote very well.
          2. 0
            14 August 2021 13: 14
            She is the most. A bit wrong with the name!
    2. 0
      14 August 2021 20: 52
      Not just one little thing. sad
  5. +8
    13 August 2021 18: 42
    Interestingly, after Porokhovshchikov was shot, all his papers disappeared in the archives. КГБ

    recourse but they say that time travel is not possible ...
    What is interesting is how the aircraft manufacturer Alexander Alexandrovich was more successful. In any case, the airplanes of his design actually flew. And as for the all-terrain vehicle, how many were there stillborn constructions?
    1. +9
      13 August 2021 20: 09
      Good evening everyone!
      I was late as always !!!
      Yes, we did not have efficient tank projects in the First World War. So if even, by the end of the war, only three countries succeeded in this: the French with Renault-FT17, the British with a greyhound, Italians with FT-2000 and FT-3000. And then the last one was a elaborate copy of the Frenchman. Not the Germans did not have time to launch their LT in the series, the Americans managed to spank a dozen reckless Renault, but this does not count. And if you read, then you should add our “Fighters for TV Freedom” to them. Lenin "and others like him.
      At the same time, mournfully speaking about the defectiveness of the tank industry in Russia, we forget how fast both sides spanked armored trains during the civilian years. So demand gives rise to supply, but without mistakes - no matter how. There is an old adage that the one who does nothing is not mistaken.
    2. +11
      13 August 2021 20: 11
      And through the locks designed by him for the Belomorkanal, ships still go
  6. +9
    13 August 2021 19: 00
    Well, okay, the first "all-terrain vehicle" was hacked to death, and the second one did not please with what, it really was something like a tank with a crew of 4 people and an "armored wheelhouse". The latter consisted of three independently rotating belts with a Maxim machine gun in each. Another "Maxim" was mounted in the frontal sheet of the hull. The idea of ​​the propeller remained the same, only the wheels at the ends of the rear drum were added. According to the documentation and scale model presented by him on January 17, 1917, it was indeed a tank with a wheeled tracked chassis. Unlike its predecessor, the "All-terrain vehicle No. 2" was equipped with a more advanced chassis. On the axle of the rear (driving) drum, automobile wheels having a diameter larger than that of the drum were rigidly mounted. Two more wheels (front wheels), with the help of which, like a car, turns, were put on the axle of the second drum. When driving on a road with a hard surface, the "All-terrain vehicle-2" rested on the ground only with its wheels and moved like a car; the caterpillar rewound idle. On loose soil, the wheels plunged into the ground, the caterpillar sat on the ground and began to move on a caterpillar track. In this case, the turning was carried out with the help of the same wheels as when moving on a wheeled drive. Now the engineer-technician L.E.Semmering will answer this question, pointing out a number of shortcomings:
    regarding the "armored cabin":
    a) the height of individual belts is too low ...
    b) the work of three machine gunners simultaneously on one side is impossible due to the insufficient radius of the wheelhouse,
    c) the work of three machine gunners in opposite directions is impossible for the same reason,
    d) the device of thermosiphon cooling of machine guns is impossible,
    e) the location and construction of the machine gunners' seats are not indicated,
    f) it is unacceptable for the tower to roll on toothed racks on rollers ”.
    Regarding the propeller: “In view of the fact that when driving on a regular road, an“ all-terrain vehicle ”does not have any advantages over an ordinary car, but on the contrary, it has only disadvantages, such as: the absence of a differential, the presence of one tape instead of two, etc. The car will not work at all on loose soil, due to the presence of a mass of various obstacles arising from the imperfect design, the inevitable slipping of the tape on the drum and the impossibility of turning, the Commission finds that the project of the "All-terrain vehicle" by designer Porokhovshchikov in its present form does not deserve any attention.
    But the French (according to rumors, there is no documentary evidence, of course) Porokhovshchikov's achievements did not leave without attention and they slammed something on their Renault .. "there is no prophet in his own country"
    1. +5
      13 August 2021 19: 15
      The wheels sank into the ground ...
      And enough engine power to move this "structure" on virgin soil?
      A tower with THREE independent belts.
      One shooter or three?
      On paper, "very smooth" ...
      The RENOULT brothers are the RENOULT brothers!
      And they obviously did not need Mr. Prokhovshchikov to "inspire" them to technical feats!
    2. +7
      13 August 2021 19: 18
      But the French (according to rumors, there is no documentary evidence, of course) Porokhovshchikov's achievements did not leave without attention and they slammed something on their Renault

      And what, in your opinion, is Porokhovshchikov's "slamzy" in the FT-17?
      1. +9
        13 August 2021 19: 25
        The general layout of the tank (the control compartment is in the front, the combat compartment is in the middle, and the power compartment is in the back), now recognized as classic, was completely borrowed from the Russian model. In addition, while the British were preparing for production a tank with a sponsored armament arrangement, and the Saint-Chamon company was building a tank with a casemate arrangement of the gun, Renault (more precisely, not Renault himself, but the designer of his company Rudolf Ernst-Metzmair) placed the armament in the tower circular rotation, as it was on the all-terrain vehicle. Of course, some changes were made to the design of the all-terrain vehicle. First of all, Renault abandoned the mono-track and wheel control. Instead, he used the idea of ​​another Russian inventor Fyodor Blinov - back in 1880, this self-taught inventor, who came from the Volga barge haulers, invented a caterpillar mover, and in 1888 built a caterpillar car with enviable cross-country ability. It was such a propulsion device that Renault used on his brainchild.
        1. +7
          13 August 2021 21: 06
          It is clear - the thesis about the homeland of elephants is immortal. You did not serve as a political officer in the Soviet army?
          not Renault himself, but the designer of his company Rudolf Ernst-Metzmair) placed the weapons in a circular rotation tower, as it was on the All-Terrain Vehicle

          To begin with, "Nobody has ever seen an all-terrain vehicle with a turret. This is the first. Second, what about the patent of Gunther Burshtyn, who presented his" tank "back in 1911?

          And wow - the armament in the turret of circular rotation!
          The question arises - who borrowed what from whom?
          Instead, he used the idea of ​​another Russian inventor Fyodor Blinov - back in 1880, this self-taught inventor, who came from the Volga barge haulers, invented a caterpillar propeller,

          The caterpillar drive was invented by Richard Edgeworth in 1770, for which there is a corresponding patent.
          1. +5
            14 August 2021 01: 27
            what In my non-professional opinion, the invention of a caterpillar propeller, the construction of a prototype and obtaining a patent is one thing, but the creation of a structure and introduction into mass production is another, very important event.
            About Blinov's invention, however, I heard little (at all) about serial production and practical use of information:

            But the invention and implementation of the founding fathers of the Caterpillar enterprise is based on the basic solutions in the layout of the drive circuit, and, serial production since 1904:


            I am sure that the tracked propeller was known to the designers of the tracked armored vehicles of the upcoming war.
            1. +1
              14 August 2021 18: 32
              Blinov's tractor is a historical myth, in reality there was only a tracked carriage, and that's it, not a single document was found on the steam tractor, except for the fantasies of journalists.
              Holt was not the first before him Lombard's steam tractors in 1901 industrial production, then Hornsby.


              https://youtu.be/EHXIKQorJv0
        2. 0
          14 August 2021 20: 59
          Blinov did not invent a caterpillar drive, alas, no matter how much we wanted, before him there were several dozen patents in different versions in the world, there was his version of a caterpillar for a trackless car. He also did not find the tractor, they did not find the documents, there is a project of a crawler car, a patent, and the sample was rolled by horses, then it is already a fantasy, there is no documentary confirmation.
    3. +3
      13 August 2021 19: 23
      Quote: SERGE ant
      and slammed something on your Renault

      And what was "slammed"?
      1. +7
        13 August 2021 19: 41
        Renault himself did not have to blunder anything. Colonel Jean-Baptiste Eugene Estienne, a member of the French Advisory Committee on Special Forces Artillery, having visited the allied French Russia, got acquainted with the project of the world's first All-Terrain Vehicle, created by Alexander Porokhovshchikov. Returning to France, Estienne offered these drawings to Louis Renault - who, having familiarized himself with the drawings in detail, refused to buy, motivating the refusal by the lack of experience in building such machines. However, the Russian project was simple, like everything brilliant, and Renault, who had an excellent visual memory, was able to quite accurately reconstruct these drawings after returning from negotiations. Wasting no time, Renault started building his own version. In December 1916, the model of the tank was presented to the Advisory Committee on Special Forces Artillery, which was now chaired by the same Colonel Estienne. He stated that France does not need light vuaturettes, but heavy tanks like the British, and therefore the committee gives preference to the Schneider CA1 and Saint Chamond models. Now Renault was forced to pay Estienne much more than he asked for the drawings, but Renault was not upset - he knew that even if he had honestly paid for the drawings then, Estienne would still have demanded a bribe from him for issuing a government order for his tanks. The issue was resolved, and soon the prototype was admitted to state tests, which began on April 10 and ended in complete success. However, now Estienne demanded from Renault not just money, but part of the shares of his enterprise for a state order of 150 tanks. Renault could not endure such insolence and offered a stake in his company to a prominent politician Alexander Millerand, who until recently was Minister of War, and soon became Prime Minister of the French Republic. After that, the issue with the state order was immediately resolved.
        1. +4
          13 August 2021 21: 41
          Renault himself did not have to blunder anything. Colonel Jean-Baptiste Eugene Estienne, a member of the French Advisory Committee on Special Forces Artillery, having visited the allied French Russia, got acquainted with the project of the world's first All-terrain vehicle, created by Alexander Porokhovshchikov.

    4. +8
      13 August 2021 20: 13
      The last place of work of Prkhorovshchikov was the Armored Directorate of the Red Army, was engaged in the design of tanks.
  7. +13
    13 August 2021 19: 19
    Moreover, the fact that this is a "tank" was later written by almost the same people as the authors of the 1943 tank design textbook.
    Only, here's the bad luck, not the same. The skill of spitting into the Soviet past cannot be spent on drink. Let him have to lie.

    That is, we have an all-terrain vehicle in front of us, and a poorly designed one, and it is not at all surprising that it was rejected!
    The author does not delve into the subject of the article so much that he spits on the fact that the prototype itself was called the "experimental all-terrain vehicle" and the designer planned to establish armor with weapons based on the results of the tests. And it is these plans, as well as a revised, but unfortunately unrealized project, with armor and weapons that are the reason to consider the Porokhovshchikov car as the prototype of the Russian tank. Well, then the author is being clever, but since he is near-zero in technology, he writes nonsense like:

    the armor of a field battleship, according to the author, had to have a thickness capable of withstanding the hit of shells from field artillery, the second - from the artillery of the fortress. Therefore, it was assumed to be ... 101,6 mm thick!
    Is the author surprised by the 10cm armor of a super heavy tank?

    to which 10 motor wheels were to be attached
    Even with the score, things are not very good, twenty wheels, twenty!

    What at the same time his farm will experience bending loads, the inventor clearly did not think.
    The author is not aware that the task of the truss is the resistance to the bending load.

    But ... for this, it would be necessary to synchronize the rotation of all rollers, and it was almost impossible to achieve this with the then state of the art.
    Oh what a tragedy, stop the car on the right / left side or by numbers / groups of wheels, that's the whole turn. It seems to the author unaware that the rotation of this modular unified chassis (just a joke, with a grain of joke) is, in principle, difficult due to the length-to-width ratio.

    Usually the inventors of such "super cars" do not accept criticism and fight for them "to the end" Porokhovshchikov actually offered a small tank, but only this project was ruined in the bud because of the "admiration of the noble officers before the West.", or something like that. But the gigantomania of the tsarist generals can be seen just on the example of the "Tsar-tank", funds were found for this alien, so Porokhovshchikov was just trying to follow the trends of the "technical thought" of the generals.
    1. +6
      13 August 2021 22: 05
      Only, here's the bad luck, not the same. The skill of spitting into the Soviet past cannot be spent on drink. Let him have to lie.

      Quite right. These are the same party propagandists, but the engineers and technicians know their stuff, they are not guided by the decisions of the next congresses of the next party in power.
    2. +2
      14 August 2021 10: 03
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Only, here's the bad luck, not the same. The skill of spitting into the Soviet past cannot be spent on drink. Let him have to lie.

      So Mr. Shpakovsky not only periodically spits in the Soviet past, he does well in the Russian and Russian past ...

      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The author does not delve into the subject of the article so much that he spits on the fact that the prototype itself was called an "experimental all-terrain vehicle" and the designer planned to establish armor with weapons based on the results of the tests.
      Fortunately (because these his opuses immediately give him away ... therefore with a part)) Shpakovsky is not on friendly terms with science and technology, he is a type of candidate of historical sciences. - and history, in some hands, is like a drawbar - where he turned, there it came out!
  8. Cat
    +8
    13 August 2021 19: 50
    Hmm, the trajectory of design ideas is sometimes extremely intricate - something like "anti-submarine zigzag, turning into an anti-missile maneuver" (C) wassat
    And yes, even if there was an excellent project, such as the FT-17, it would still not have been possible to start production due to the lack of engine production. It seems to me that this is the case, and not in the "admiration of the noble officers before the West"
    1. 0
      13 August 2021 22: 12
      And yes, even if there was an excellent project, such as the FT-17, it would still not have been possible to start production due to the lack of engine production. It seems to me that this is the case, and not in the "admiration of the noble officers before the West"

      The best Russian self-propelled armored car was "Garford". Designed on a weak engine, it performed well in battles. For - the 76-mm short cannon supported machine-gun armored cars with its fire.
      Its creator, Nikolai Filatov, is not in the photo in full face. But, if you look closely, a certain densely built officer looks out of the middle part of a tested armored car, and stands with his back to us ... Perhaps it is Filatov?
  9. +6
    13 August 2021 20: 34
    I just want to remind you that Mendeleev did not have a tank, but a means of coastal defense (for today's money - "Coast", but armored)
  10. +4
    13 August 2021 21: 32
    Porokhovshchikov clearly had a wild imagination. However, Navrotsky too
  11. 0
    13 August 2021 23: 11
    It seems to me that the comments under the article turned into a benefit performance of the creative duet "Bazhin and Mikhailov" ...
    Meanwhile, thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. +1
      13 August 2021 23: 21
      It seems to me that the comments under the article turned into a benefit performance of the creative duet "Bazhin and Mikhailov" ...

      - Bazhin! How are you holding the esponton! - (Signed: Mikhailov) laughing And you and I will not be ... Who will discuss something? Emotional extras with "opinions" according to Pareto's law? what
      1. +2
        13 August 2021 23: 34
        "As I can, and I keep it, mister captain! If you don't like it - look for another serventa! Just know, mister captain, when my people and I leave, your army will be rogue and market women."
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. +1
    14 August 2021 01: 09
    A real Porokhovshchikov tank? No one knows how real he could be! You are boring people .... without imagination!



  14. +2
    14 August 2021 07: 02
    Here's how it is not beautiful Vyacheslav Olegovich in my opinion, what did Porokhovshchikov do bad to you? Before the advent of FT-17, how much was invented in Europe and America?
  15. +1
    14 August 2021 11: 34
    You can shoot from the "maxim" with one hand - you will only be able to hit the "white light". But with a self-running stroller on a rubber track, you cannot cope with one hand. Moreover, the breech of "maxim" in the head all the time in motion knocks. Where can we fight here ...
    1. +1
      14 August 2021 19: 36
      Quote: Hanry de Kur
      You can shoot from the "maxim" with one hand - you can only hit the "white light"

      And in "Renault" ... "Marks" only "outright" shot? Maybe they didn't shoot right away ... almost! In any case, the "method" is applied when shooting from stops ... even now! So what prevented the "all-terrain vehicle" from driving the "all-terrain vehicle" with 2 hands, and then, having made a stop, shoot, again with 2 hands, and then go! ?
  16. +1
    14 August 2021 14: 28
    "The tower with the Maxim machine gun was added to it later, obviously forgetting that it was possible to shoot from it only with two hands, and then two more hands would be required to control this machine. So drive it alone and in addition also it would be impossible to shoot. "
    Fighter pilots of the First and Second World Wars dealt with this problem. And if in World War I there was one machine gun on fighters, then in World War II fighters had rifle-caliber machine guns, large-caliber machine guns and automatic cannons at the same time. For example, Spitfire of different modifications: 8 7,7 mm machine guns, or 2 X 20 mm autocannons plus 4 machine guns of 7,7 caliber or plus 227 kg of bombs or 2X 20mm cannons plus 2x12,7 machine guns plus 227 kg of bombs
    Soviet MiG-3: 1 12,7 mm UBS machine gun plus 2X7,62 ShKAS plus 2 FAB-50.P-39D or L Airacobra bombs: 1X37mm cannon plus 2X12,7 machine guns plus 2X 7,62 machine guns plus 227 kg bombs ...
  17. 0
    14 August 2021 18: 34
    Hornsby tracked tractors commercial from '08 for Germany, here's a playground for the alternative.
  18. 0
    10 October 2021 01: 00
    Porokhovshchikov also developed the project "All-terrain vehicle-2" with a turret and a machine gun. There were many talented inventors in RI. But they were not given a way by the tsarist slow-witted. And our armored vehicles were better than the British, French, German. Machines like these were not written even under Khrushchev and Brezhnev in the USSR. The tank would be called an all-terrain vehicle, an armored vehicle or a tarataika, if it were not for the tsarist generals from those other comets!
  19. 0
    19 February 2023 17: 03
    The most amazing thing is that a prototype was made. The fact that the machine was obviously inoperable was any engineer at the design stage.