Mortars of the Russian army. Today and tomorrow

82-mm portable mortar 2B14 "Tray". Photo Arms-expo.ru

Since the thirties, a variety of mortars have been the most important component of the artillery weapons system of our armed forces. In service there is a large number of such systems of different types and in different calibers. At the same time, the development of the direction does not stop, and in the future the army may receive completely new models.

Main factors

Currently, there are three caliber mortars in service - 82, 120 and 240 mm. Previously, systems of other calibers existed, but they were abandoned. Depending on the needs of the troops, the caliber and characteristics of operation, such weapon can be carried out in a transportable, portable, towed or self-propelled form. Also, the tasks of mortars can be effectively solved by samples of the "gun-shot" system.

Ground forces, airborne forces and marines have mortars. The specifics of the service and the tasks to be solved determine the range of their weapons. So, in the ground forces there is a whole range of mortars, up to the most powerful self-propelled 240-mm systems, and in the Airborne Forces, due to objective limitations, calibers do not exceed 120 mm.

Silent 2B25 "Gall". On the left is a mine with a powder gas cutoff. Photo Russianarms.ru

According to open data, the total number of mortars in the troops reaches several thousand. Thus, the authors of The Military Balance 2021 reference book counted at least 1540 "active" mortars and about 2600 units. in storage. At the same time, there is reason to believe that the reference book does not fully reflect the real state of affairs, and the actual figures are higher.

In large quantities

The most popular are 82 mm mortars. The main product of this class is the portable 2B14 "Tray". The army has at least 950 such mortars. They are used both in their original design and in combination with various vehicles capable of carrying weapons with crew and ammunition. Also in caliber 82 mm is the automatic mortar 2B9 "Vasilek". The exact number of such weapons is unknown. The firing range of the 82-mm "Tray" and "Vasilka" reaches 4-4,2 km.

In 2011, a special mortar 2B25 "Gall" was presented for the first time. This is an 82-mm system for a special mine 3VO35E, using the principle of locking powder gases. Due to this, a shot from the "Gall" produces minimal noise. It was reported about the launch of mass production, but other details were not reported. Presumably, 2B25 was adopted by the special forces.

Complex 2S12 "Sani": the calculation unloads the 120-mm mortar 2B11 from the car. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

The basis of the class of 120-mm mortars is the product 2B11, which has been in service since the beginning of the eighties. This mortar is equipped with a removable wheel drive, with which it can be towed by various tractors. Also 2B11 is used as part of mortar complexes 2S12 "Sani". In this case, the mortar is towed or transported in the back of a truck. In 2007, a new 120-mm mortar 2B23 "Nona-M1" in a towed version entered service. The maximum firing range for products 2B11 and 2B23 reaches 7,1-7,2 km.

According to The Military Balance 2021, there are 700 Sani complexes in the ground forces. The exact number of 2B11 mortars used in a different configuration is unknown. The number of mortars 2B23, according to various sources, does not exceed 50-60 units. Also, there are about 1 2C12 complexes in storage. In addition, it is reported that older 120-mm systems are still in reserve, up to the earliest regimental mortar mod. 1938 (PM-38).

Preparing 2B11 for shooting. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

In the past, the 160 mm caliber was present in the mortar system. Later it was abandoned, but there is still approx. 300 items M-160 arr. 1949 g.

The most powerful mortar of the Russian army is the 240-mm product 2B8 or M-240, used as part of the 2S4 "Tulip" self-propelled complex. The active fleet of such equipment reaches 40 units. At the storage bases there is still approx. 390 cars. Currently, a program is underway to modernize such self-propelled guns in order to improve their combat qualities. The 2S4 can use a wide range of ammunition with a maximum firing range of up to 20 km.

The functional analogue of 120-mm mortars is the gun-shot system - 2S9 Nona-S and modifications, 2S31 Vena and 2S34 Khosta. The 2A51 and 2A80 guns are capable of using mortar mines and fire at high elevation angles for a range of up to 7-8 km. The presence of advanced fire control facilities provides an effective solution to combat missions. The total number of such equipment is approx. 500 units Several hundred cars are in storage.

A 240-mm self-propelled mortar 2S4 "Tulip" in position. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

Perspective development

The development of the mortar direction continues, and in the near future the army will be able to obtain new models of weapons and equipment. The main contribution to these processes will be made by the development work "Sketch", within the framework of which several new artillery systems have been developed.

ROC "Sketch" provides for the construction of self-propelled guns on different chassis, providing high mobility and mobility. These machines are equipped with modern weapons. At the same time, it is proposed to use modern communication, navigation and fire control systems to obtain the highest possible accuracy and accuracy characteristics.

Ammunition for the Tulip. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

The 2S41 "Drok" self-propelled mortar was brought to testing. It is made on a biaxial Typhoon chassis and is equipped with a turret mount for an 82-mm barrel. If necessary, the mortar can be removed from the tower and used with a two-legged and base plate in a portable or transportable configuration.

Two more promising projects, 2S40 "Phlox" and 2S42 "Lotos", propose the development of the idea of ​​a cannon-howitzer-mortar. These combat vehicles are carried out on different chassis and are equipped with 120-mm guns, developed on the basis of the ideas of the 2A51 and 2A80 projects. They can perform the tasks of mortars, but at the same time they get the ability to fire direct fire using different ammunition.

Self-propelled gun 2S9 "Nona-S" - a functional analogue of mortars. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

Self-propelled systems of the Sketch series are intended for ground forces and airborne forces. While they remain at the stage of testing, which should be completed in the coming years. Accordingly, in the foreseeable future, mass production will start and deliveries to the troops will begin. It is expected that the Drok products will complement or replace the portable 82-mm systems, and the Lotos and Phlox will take over part of the tasks of the Nona-S and other similar equipment.

Component development

The design of the mortar itself reached its perfection several decades ago, and its further improvement is impossible or impractical. However, there are other ways to improve the characteristics of the mortar complex, providing for the improvement of other components.

Promising self-propelled mortar 2S41 "Drok". Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

A characteristic drawback of mortars in general is their relatively low accuracy, which limits the effectiveness of firing at small or moving targets. The accuracy problem can be solved with guided munitions. So, since the beginning of the eighties, the 1K113 "Daredevil" complex with a 240-mm guided mine, designed for "Tulip", has been in service. In recent years, the Gran 'system has been regularly demonstrated at exhibitions, which is compatible with the entire range of 120-mm mortars. There are other developments in the field of controlled mines.

Accuracy and other characteristics also depend on the fire controls. On modern mortar systems, such as the 2S41 or 2S4 in the modernized version, current digital navigation and data generation tools are used for firing. Additionally, the characteristics are improved by mechanizing the guidance processes.

Working with a guided mine "Edge". Photo KB Instrument-making

Finally, much attention is paid to artillery control facilities. Automated control systems are being introduced to collect and process data with the subsequent issuance of target designation for fire weapons. Data transmission to the unit commander's terminal or directly to the complex's control system significantly speeds up preparation for firing and improves firing results.

Today and tomorrow

Thus, mortars occupy an important place in the nomenclature of weapons in our army and are unlikely to ever free it. The units have a large number of mortars in different designs and different calibers, which makes it possible to solve a wide range of combat missions with high efficiency.

At the moment, the overwhelming majority of mortars of the Russian army were developed and / or manufactured during the Soviet era. The number of newer types and samples is still limited, but is gradually increasing. In addition, new products should enter service in the near future. Due to the beneficial combination of old proven solutions and modern technologies, they will show higher performance and become an effective addition to existing weapons. All this will have a positive effect on artillery in general.

Comments

[bandabas]

390 2C4 "Tulip" in storage. As for the number, I don’t know, I won’t lie .. Are there any personnel who can use them? I doubt. These are not gadgets.

[kind]

There are operating parts not at all in storage in the ZVO and VVO. There are also very well-trained personnel!

[bandabas]

I do not argue. Thanks for the information.

[bandabas]

Happy for you. Let them act. What question will you ask in 25 years? No offense.

[tralflot1832]

I don’t know about the accuracy, but since the fall of 2014 there were a lot of videos with a mortarman working in the DPR or LPR with the call sign Engineer, 4 mines and 3 infantry fighting vehicles, as if from a bush. So in the hands of a specialist, a mortar is a formidable weapon. death, only the whistle of a mine and a mustache, there is even nothing to bury.

[garrett]

4 mines and 3 infantry fighting vehicles, like from a bush

in 2001, he argued with the deputy. the commander of a mortar battery (33 defense) on a box of beer that he would not hit the telegraph pole (about 300-400 meters) from three shots ... so he hit, dog, the first time

[lucul]

Mortars of the Russian army. Today and tomorrow

The possibility of external target designation from the UAV is required for Nona / Lotus and for Gorse (everything on the chassis). Without it, these mortars are the last century.
To do this, these machines must be equipped with the appropriate devices, you cannot skimp on it.
This will increase their combat effectiveness.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I like the "Drok" as an escort and escort vehicle, there was a lack of such equipment for escorting automobile convoys. Can be used along with the "Partner" and its 30 mm cannon. And the border guards would be approached by a car, to be sure in troubled areas.

[Vadim237]

It's time to equip mortars with computer sighting kits - GLONASS navigation by a weather station with a ballistic computer linked to the UAV, then its efficiency and accuracy will increase many times over.

[Alexander Pseudonym]

Gentlemen! Who understands why the Russian army is not armed with 60 mm mortars? They are light and close to 82 mm in characteristics (for example, European grenade launchers from NATO countries).

[lucul]

Why is the Russian army not armed with 60 mm mortars?

The range and power of the charge are inferior to 80mm mortars.

[Toucan]

Quote: lucul

The range and power of the charge are inferior to 80mm mortars.

You are not right
The USMC uses the 60 mm М224М1.

With a mass in a combat position of about 19 kg, this mortar has a firing range of up to 3500 km.
A mine weighing about 2,2 kg is equipped with a much more powerful explosive than TNT. Thanks to this, the high-explosive effect was kept at the level of 81-mm mines. The fragmentation effect is even higher than that of the old 81mm mine due to the orderly formation of fragments and air blasting.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

But for the 82-mm mortar, a new mine of increased power also appeared, with which the 60-mm mine cannot compete.

[Toucan]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

But for the 82-mm mortar, a new mine of increased power also appeared, with which the 60-mm mine cannot compete.

Are there many such mines in the troops? You can also compare the mass of the 60-mm and 82-mm mortars, and the weight of the ammunition. For small mobile units, 60mm is clearly preferable.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

If that on an 82 mm mortar, you can use a low-power powder charge and a more powerful mine. Smaller silent caliber only for special forces.

[demiurg]

60mm mortar, these are cockroaches in the heads of the American military. Perfectly replaced by AGS.

[Ben Gunn]

I have to disagree. AGS, of course, is cool, but it cannot completely replace the 60-mm mortar. And it is 60-mm mortars or something of a similar caliber that would be very appropriate for us.

[YOUR.]

With a range of up to 1700 m?

[demiurg]

This is a weapon to throw over a hillock on the front line, nothing more. Hitting 4 km with a 60mm mortar is a waste of ammunition, dispersion and the lack of a normal sight are witnesses to this.
But to suppress the attackers / defenders, with the transfer of fire over a distance and especially in elevation, it’s easier with the AGS.

[DenVB]

Quote: Alexander Pseudonym

Gentlemen! Who understands why the Russian army is not armed with 60 mm mortars?

The Russian army lacks a lot. It is strange that you are surprised by the absence of these particular mortars.

[nobody75]

In fact, everything is simple. Mines with a caliber of 60 mm are not made for "counter-partisan" and "anti-terrorist" considerations. So that no one makes mortars out of seamless pipes in artisanal conditions.
Sincerely

[Per se.]

Quote: nobody75

Mines with a caliber of 60 mm are not made for "counter-partisan" and "anti-terrorist" considerations.

Then, because of the terrorist and partisan, although this is not the point. We abandoned company 50 mm mortars after the Second World War, maybe in vain, in any case, 60-64 mm mortars would be useful, especially for reconnaissance companies, special forces.

As for the "barmaley", so these already have both branded weapons and any homemade products.

"Kulibins", their mother ...

[kind]

The title is incorrect. These are mortars of the Soviet army! And where is 2B9 (2B9M) "Cornflower"?

[lucul]

The title is incorrect. These are mortars of the Soviet army!

Strange, there are mortars, but there is no army?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

"Cornflower" could be modernized. You can put it on a four-wheeled chassis or make it in the form of a semi-trailer, equip it with automated drives, hang a guidance system like the modernized ZU-23-2, you would get a completely modern weapon.

[Humpty]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

"Cornflower" could be modernized.

Thing! Not a mortar, but a hose! However, it is not devoid of a number of disadvantages. In particular, shooting with a high elevation angle is problematic.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I also met the opposite opinion that the automatic mortar is much inferior to the grenade launcher, in our case the LSHO-57, it remains only to observe the process.

[carstorm 11]

He has more cheerful flaws) such as the one for which they carry a wooden mallet with him. Once you see how a mine is pulled out of it that has not left the barrel, you can safely say that you have seen everything in life and compose anecdotes)

[Humpty]

Quote: carstorm 11

Once you see how a mine is pulled out of it that has not left the barrel, you can safely say that you have seen everything in life and compose anecdotes)

You are not the only one here))

Quote: carstorm 11

It has more hilarious flaws)

You can adapt. Let's keep quiet. The enemy does not sleep)) Why a wooden mallet really I don't know ...

[KSVK]

Quote: lucul

Mortars of the Russian army. Today and tomorrow

The possibility of external target designation from the UAV is required for Nona / Lotus and for Gorse (everything on the chassis). Without it, these mortars are the last century.
To do this, these machines must be equipped with the appropriate devices, you cannot skimp on it.
This will increase their combat effectiveness.

The mortar is primarily a weapon of direct support for the infantry.
Well, a terrible dream of a sniper.
And with the ranges that 82 mm mortars provide, all these games of corrected ammunition are bullshit. Here is the installation of a mortar on a self-propelled chassis, this is a topic. As well as self-loading. I arrived, fired a dozen mines, dumped until the first one flew. And rightly so, that "Tulips" were put on a joke. The caliber is too big.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

82 mm was left only as a wearable option for actions in the mountains, however, ammunition with remote detonation will not interfere with it. Can you imagine how many troubles an enemy can get a "Cornflower" with mines on remote detonation?
And not necessarily a self-propelled chassis, it is quite possible to do with the version in the form of a trailer, you can leave it stationary at the outpost, and drag it with a helicopter on an external suspension.

[nobody75]

Trajectory and velocity parameters of 82 mm mines are not so accurate to use programmed detonation. In principle, of course, it is possible, but the quality of the barrel, as well as the tolerances in the production of mines (I am silent about the propellant charge) should be completely different. Don't you think you will get a "golden mine"?
Sincerely

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

If by hand the mortar men managed to hit a target such as a lonely dacha "toilet" at ranges of 1-1,5 km, then in automatic mode it is even more possible.
Although the question you asked is too serious to be answered unambiguously without trying it out. Caliber 82 mm, it is, of course, small and the gap should occur exactly 5-10 meters from the ground. but intuitively it seems that it is even easier than providing a remote detonation of a 30 mm shot from an automatic cannon.

[nobody75]

I am a staunch opponent of the projectile with a programmable fuse for the 30 mm cannon. But this is a separate topic ... In my own defense, I can say that a cannon projectile has a flat trajectory, and a mine has a hinged one. Therefore, it will be possible to shoot a mine with a programmable fuse only using an electronic map of the area and a GLONASS sensor in the mine itself. It is advisable to place such mortar systems on a robotic platform and use in the Airborne Forces.
Sincerely

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

But there is a very clear reference point here, this is dispersion. After all, it is related to both the flight time and the trajectory, so it can be calculated. And why do you need a GLONASS sensor in the mine itself, because you can get by with the flight and detonation time? There are also cases of visual observation of the target, where the distance and level can be determined directly.

[nobody75]

But there is a very clear reference point here, this is dispersion. After all, it is related to both the flight time and the trajectory, so it can be calculated.

You stepped on my sore corn! I apologize for the following lyrical digression.
At the age of 12, I was very fond of mathematical modeling. And I was very surprised when my father told me about the Lorenz system and attractor. It is because of him that a weather forecast for a period of more than 2 weeks is theoretically impossible, although the task seems to be subject to calculation. The whole point, as Lorenz believed, is in the butterfly, which, with the flap of its wings, is capable of causing a tornado. Or, in mathematical terms, in the strong dependence of the phase trajectory on the initial data. This very dependence is called "mathematical chaos". I remember I made my mother laugh very much when I said that the planned economy is able to build communism if you kill all the butterflies.
The same is with the trajectory of the mine. The scatter of the initial data will not allow us to accurately calculate the height of the mine above the point of impact. Therefore, an electronic card and a sensor are needed.
Sincerely

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

In this case, great accuracy is not needed, + - 20 m (0,06-0,01 s) will be quite enough.

[nobody75]

Exactly !, but these same + - 20 m - is this an error in determining the topographic height? And where will she come from without an electronic card?
Sincerely

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Does anyone prohibit both electronic maps and artillery gunners?

[nobody75]

And each mine will have its own barometric detonation altitude! Imagine the mortar position is on the reverse slope of the elevation. So also Midldorf advised. And he fires on another slope. Then instead of the scattering ellipse - usual for elementary external ballistics, we will see funny pictures like the ones below.

I learned that Lapin Sasha (our joy) conducts teachings with Tajiks and Uzbeks. I went to look for "dusty folders", although it is clear that since he crossed the Euphrates, then he will pass another speech. What the Americans are counting on. And in the process of searching, I came across my children's work on chaos theory. I decided to rewrite them from Pascal to Python.
Sincerely

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

These funny pictures are nothing more than entertainment. Already in the Second World War, analog computers were used when throwing aerial bombs, and you know, they got in despite deviations in weight, wind, speed and flight altitude, coupled with a difficult and not very terrain.
It is much more difficult to make a programmable fuse and the programmer itself, and problems with calculations have long been solved before you.

[nobody75]

These funny pictures are nothing more than entertainment. Already in the Second World War, analog computers were used when throwing aerial bombs, and you know, they got in despite deviations in weight, wind, speed and flight altitude, coupled with a difficult and not very terrain.

Did the aerial bombs have remote detonation? And about the "hit" there are McNamara's reports ... And about the "analog computers" you correctly noted. It was these machines that were used in anti-aircraft missiles. By the way, it was precisely the missiles of anti-aircraft missiles, coupled with the tasks of celestial mechanics, that prompted Academician Arnold (the founder of the scientific school that dealt with these very analog machines) to take up "funny pictures".
Sincerely

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And how in the United States they manage to undermine small-caliber shells almost exactly over the trenches at four times the speed of the projectile. Are they unaware of your pictures and mental exercises?

[nobody75]

Small-caliber projectiles fly along a flat tractor in the line of sight. It is much easier to calculate their approach time when shooting at trenches in the field than for a mine flying along a hinged trajectory when shooting in the mountains. And who told you that there are no flights and undershoots? They are, and this disadvantage is compensated for by the rate of fire. Can a mortar maintain such a pace?
Sincerely

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Already in the Second World War, analog computers were used when throwing aerial bombs, and you know, they got in despite deviations in weight, wind, speed and flight altitude, coupled with a difficult and not very terrain.

Only experienced crews in ideal conditions.
And the average crews with the same Nordens laid within the boundaries of the refinery plant territory, limited by a fence, only 2-5% of dropped bombs.

[Keer]

After all, you can get by with the time of flight and detonation?

Why is this mounted projectile? Tighten the parking sensors and that's enough.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The idea is funny.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

The idea is funny.

The idea is long-standing - a radio fuse for field gun shells has been used since 1944.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Parktronic on ultrasound.

[Bormanxnumx]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

If by hand the mortarmen managed to hit a target such as a lonely dacha "toilet" at ranges of 1-1,5 km

By what shot? For the sake of interest I opened the "manual for the combat work of an 82mm mortar" and there is data on "suppression of an openly located firing point" - the average consumption of mines, at the distance you specified, 20-30 pieces.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The firing point and the lonely barn (toilet) are objects of different sizes, and of course, not necessarily from the very first mine. And people fell, they all do not lie.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Watch the video,
"Soviet mortars in Afghanistan: Andrei Baranov recalls",
18-19 minutes. Target at a distance of 1,5 km.
And not only from him you can hear it.
Link to YouTube
https://youtu.be/_8VbQilEaHE

[DenVB]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

however, remote detonation ammunition will not interfere with it either.

For mortar mines, a radio fuse is more suitable. In the conditions of a fleeting battle, calculating the time of detonation of a remote fuse, then observing the breaks, then adjusting the settings, then, after transferring the fire, repeating everything again - it is too troublesome.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Doesn't the usual zeroing look like that?

[DenVB]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Doesn't the usual zeroing look like that?

Ok, but we are adding an additional parameter to the calculations. Which complicates and takes time. Even the banal setting of the fuse for the already calculated time is an extra few seconds. While a radio fuse will save this time.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

What are you talking about? The setting of the detonation time is now done automatically, by the induction method or by a laser. What a few more seconds? Or are you going to do the calculations while the mine is flying? A gunner or some drone may not have time to transmit data, and a radio blast is fraught with decryption by the enemy and unpredictable consequences.

[DenVB]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

What are you talking about? The setting of the detonation time is now done automatically, by the induction method or by a laser. What a few more seconds? Or are you going to do the calculations while the mine is flying? A gunner or some drone may not have time to transmit data, and a radio blast is fraught with decryption by the enemy and unpredictable consequences.

So after all, this will require the modernization of mortars, installation on the barrel of a device for programming the fuses. Laser detonation for mortars is hardly possible at all.

A radio blast is not fraught with any special decoding. What is there to decrypt? PPRCH?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Again, did not understand this about what? The laser sight-computer-programmer can be installed not even on the barrel, but next to it.

[DenVB]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

The laser sight-computer-programmer can be installed not even on the barrel, but next to it.

Well, okay, if not on the trunk, let it be near. But after all, it still needs to be done, put into production, put into the troops, and taught how to use it. And I, in principle, have nothing against it. But so far none of this exists. But the radio fuse is an old, uncomplicated technology. The Americans have been using them on mortars since the XNUMXs, it seems. But with us - I have not heard that they used it. And it should be. Moreover, it does not require anything at all from the calculation. Screw in and shoot.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

So simple that they can't repeat it for 50 years? Maybe there is still something unusual there.

[DenVB]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

So simple that they can't repeat it for 50 years? Maybe there is still something unusual there.

What could be unusual there? Fuse M734, you can look at Google. Applies from 60 mm mortars.

In general, the technology, as I said, is ancient, it has been used since the Second World War. The first radio fuses were made on lamps. And even with modern technologies, I think it is possible to make this radio fuse in the Palace of Pioneers. Microprocessor, multiple transistors, coil, battery.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: DenVB

So after all, this will require the modernization of mortars, installation on the barrel of a device for programming the fuses. Laser detonation for mortars is hardly possible at all.

Damn ... what a fig? Back in WW2, the Germans used "jumping out" 81-mm mines! Cheap and cheerful!

[riwas]

Not only. There is a 40-mm round with a VOG-25P fragmentation grenade (Foundling, index 7P24)

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: riwas

There is a 40-mm round with a VOG-25P fragmentation grenade

Well, if we compare what the VOG-25P can do, and what the 81 (82) -mm mine ... In addition, the Chinese release a "jumping" fragmentation grenade for their Type 69 RPG (75 or 80 mm ...? I don't remember exactly ...) And you ... a 40mm shot ... a trifle!

[riwas]

The anecdote was recalled. When they still had bad relations with the Chinese, they dropped a bouncing bomb on them.

[Lara Croft]

Good article. Thanks to the author. As "ZVO" read about enemy weapons. You look and stupid comments to the articles will disappear.

[farm2009]

4 thousand mortars, this is clearly not enough for our large country.
In the case of mobilization, the infantry will be stupid meat with Kalash?
You need to make at least 20 thousand.
For comparison: In total, during the war years in the USSR, about 348 thousand different mortars were fired, and of which 1939 1945 165-mm battalion mortars of all modifications were manufactured in 557-82.

[DenVB]

Quote: farm2009

4 thousand mortars, this is clearly not enough for our big country

Don't worry, there should be many thousands of old models in storage. Unless, of course, effective managers have scrapped them. Here "Vasilkov" - there are hardly a lot of them. Probably, it is necessary to resume the release. And do them right away on a moving platform. Use MTLB or old BMP after repair.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And why expose Cornflower in an open form on a mobile platform in the form of an infantry fighting vehicle or MTLB? Isn't it easier to install a 40 mm grenade launcher or the epoch module under development with a 57 mm automatic low ballistic weapon? After all, the cornflower cannot be placed in the tower due to the impossibility of removing the powder gases.

[Lara Croft]

Quote: farm2009

4 thousand mortars, this is clearly not enough for our large country.

For a peacetime army, this is even an excessive number. According to WIKI: the US Army has more than 2 thousand mortars (together with SM) ...

[Ben Gunn]

Raises the question 2C41 "Gorse". How rational is it to use such a large, heavy and expensive chassis under only 82mm? And the ammunition load of 40 rounds just looks frivolous.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There is no way to install 120 mm on this chassis without stops in the ground. At 82 mm, it is possible to fire on the move, from a short stop, plus the calculation under the armor. It turns out to be a very versatile machine.

[Ben Gunn]

And there, in order to shoot on the move, is there a stabilizer? Anyway, shooting from a mortar on the move is something very strange.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The Finns seem to be demonstrating with might and main, although the “Gorse” most likely does not have a stabilizer or not yet.

[Ben Gunn]

And where can you see how the Finns demonstrate? Very interesting.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The article is here, and the video can be found on the vastness of YouTube.
https://topwar.ru/179009-vtoroj-shans-dlja-nemo-modernizacija-minometnogo-kompleksa-i-vozmozhnye-zakazy.html

[Ben Gunn]

Interesting. Well done, Finns. All the same, there are a lot of questions to this shooting, you can show a lot of things beautifully in a commercial, but not everything then works in the real world.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There are not so many questions about shooting. A question to the very concept of such machines, and to our project, where the 120 mm "Phlox" is also present. Why are such complex and expensive vehicles with a short firing range? Howitzer artillery and multiple launch rocket systems operate at significantly greater distances, which determines their much greater effectiveness. Mortars, on the other hand, will have to operate close to the front edge, where a lot of surprises can lie in wait, ranging from enemy helicopters and ATGMs, up to mines on the roads, the absence of roads themselves and sabotage and reconnaissance groups.

[Nikolaevich I]

Well ... the article is not a "masterpiece"; but "simple and tasteful" ... 1. Among 120-mm mortars, unfortunately, the mortar (!) "Nona-M1" is not mentioned ...

2. The creation of a "silent" mortar of the "Gall" type is not the first attempt to offer the troops such a weapon ... there were prototypes during the Second World War (meaning Soviet designs ...). After the Second World War, a 120-mm "silent" mortar was also created for special forces ... (it was not accepted for service ...) Still, perhaps, "silent" ("rod") mortars are not underestimated! They could occupy the niche that 60mm mortars occupy in NATO ... the principle of the device of such a mortar allows you to make a very lightweight design! By the way, in many foreign armies, mortars like the 82-mm "Tray", with a comparable weight, have a greater range! Prototypes of 81-mm mines with a laser seeker were also created ... The anti-tank 81-mm mine "Merlin" with an active radar seeker for some time and in some quantity was in service ...

[storm]

The figures cited in the article once again refute the bravura reports of bureaucrats from the Ministry of Defense about 70% of new equipment in the troops.

The artillery is probably in the worst situation, since the supply of artillery systems to the troops comes in "microscopic doses" and the real amount of new artillery equipment supplied to the troops is estimated at 10-15%.

[Vadim237]

"The figures given in the article once again refute the bravura reports of bureaucrats from the Ministry of Defense about 70% of new equipment in the troops." New and modernized military equipment. And I think the coolest mortar is Nonu K

- both a howitzer cannon and a mortar high rate of fire convenience of reloading high firepower and maneuverability in a jeep can be carried.

[Pamir]

Mortars are an irreplaceable thing, often targets can only be reached by shooting along a hinged trajectory, for example, in high-rise buildings or in the mountains. Aviation does not hang overhead often, but targets need to be hit now. Therefore, in this case, mortars have no alternative, and besides, they are inexpensive. mortar crews often themselves work from closed positions, for example, in buildings or in folds of terrain, ravines. It is still a task to detect their positions, and after a spotting it is possible only with counter-mortar fire or aviation or UAVs, provided that the position of the mortarmen does not change, but they They do not like to sit still for a long time. Plus, the minimum firing distance for mortars is quite small, mines according to their characteristics are thrown up to several hundred meters behind a high obstacle. During the Second World War, the Wehrmacht so "liked" in the gloomy sense of the word, the 120mm Soviet mortar that they tried to copy. So it’s an irreplaceable thing, from which sometimes they don’t save shelter. And from the "Tulip" mine and four-meter reinforced concrete The overlap of pillboxes will NOT save, quickly the mood of those in them will be lowered below the plinth. Even the rumor about the appearance of "Tulips" will force anyone to jitter. It is impossible without serious losses. So the mortars still have a long life, because only they, or the aviation, can do some work.

[Vadim237]

In urban battles, ATGMs of the 4th generation and kamikaze drones will be effective.

[Pamir]

I don’t deny Vadim, but mortars are not canceled by life, and will not be canceled for a long time. Moreover, their price is not expensive. Moreover, smaller calibers work on open infantry, and large calibers have a high degree of obstacle impact, destroy well-fortified objects, Let's say pillboxes, forts, UAVs, kamikazes will not take them. ATGMs will not always reach the target behind obstacles either.

[Pamir]

In addition, ATGM positions themselves are quickly discovered, and mortar crews work quite well from closed positions, and almost never from open ones.

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: Pamir

In addition, ATGM positions themselves are quickly discovered, and mortar crews work quite well from closed positions, and almost never from open ones.

ATGMs of the third generation operate only from closed positions.

[Pamir]

I don’t deny Aaron, but if I’m not mistaken, ATGMs have different goals. And the cost of ATGMs can radically differ from a mortar, depending on which of course.

[Vadim237]

And from the open can work that will interfere with them.

[Vadim237]

for obstacle impact, they destroy well-fortified objects, for example bunkers, forts. UAV-kamikaze will not take them. ATGMs, too, will not always reach the target behind obstacles. Well, it depends on the combat frequency, if you put it on the RMG, then they will be able to, and most importantly, they can be planted exactly at the target, unlike mortar shots - mortars in urban battles will have too high a consumption of projectiles and low accuracy since the enemy will maneuver. Mortars are good on a flat, mountainous forest area.

[certero]

Quote: tralflot1832

I don't know about accuracy,

Here, too, was surprised in the article by the phrase about the inaccuracy of mortars.
The mortar is very accurate.

[Bogalex]

The title photo of the article does not show 2B14 "Tray", but 2B24 "Virgo". This can be clearly seen from the ribbing of the breech of the pipe and the fuse of a new design.
Shown next to the standard "Podnosovskaya" mine and the new 3O36, developed only for the new mortar.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Bogalex

The title photo of the article does not show 2B14 "Tray", but 2B24 "Virgo"
Shown next to the standard "Podnosovskaya" mine and the new 3O36, developed only for the new mortar.

You are great for noticing! And I didn't even look at the photo ... like, what to see there ... everything has already been watched! This is how the "authors" and naya .... are deceiving us! Zyrshe nadot look! With binoculars!

[riwas]

Here it is proposed
https://bukren.my1.ru/Ware/anti_t_b.doc
60-mm rapid-fire rifled dynamo-reactive (recoilless) grenade launcher with mortar loading... A grenade launcher shot with a nylon leading belt in the form of a "skirt" on a "flying away" sleeve "expanding" and cutting into the grooves when fired allows the principle of fast mortar loading to be realized. Shooting from it is carried out as from a conventional hand-held grenade launcher, - from the shoulder, but loading is carried out using a mortar: without removing the grenade launcher from the shoulder (as it is after the shot), the breech of the grenade launcher is lowered down, so that the axis of the grenade launcher is somewhere 45 degrees to the vertical , throws a grenade into the muzzle with his left hand, and then the grenade launcher returns to its original position for the next shot. There is a mechanism for holding the grenade in the barrel at negative angles of fire.

[agond]

Once upon a time it was attributed to the T2S4 "yulpan", the impression is ambiguous, one shot per minute, everything is very slow (interestingly, are there Tulips in Estonia?)
The 2S4 chassis was invented by the designer of tanks and self-propelled units, G.S. Efimov, but you just had to take a TDT-55 skidder and put a 2B8 mortar on it, carry ammunition on another machine, it would be easier and cheaper, and ideally for example, a four-barreled one will not have time to reload anyway

[Vadim237]

It is also possible to create a 360mm mortar on the basis of a two-link all-terrain vehicle Vityaz in the first link, the crew in the second itself, an automatic loader and ammunition.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Vadim237

You can create a 360mm mortar

In Finland, in the 40s, a rather good, in my opinion, 300-mm mortar was created ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: agond

but it was just necessary to take a TDT-55 skidder and put a 2B8 mortar on it to carry the ammunition load on another machine, so it would be easier, easier and cheaper

GAU will not give. They killed the double-barreled "Coalition" precisely because of the transportation of the BC in the second car.
Reasons: doubling the number of cars in the battery is unacceptable due to the inflation of staff, an increase in the rear, an increase in the time of folding-deployment, and an increase in the length of the column.

[Dimon-chik-79]

"The design of the mortar itself reached its perfection several decades ago, and its further improvement is impossible or impractical." how so ... for example, in the West, they went along the path of increasing the rate of fire of mortars, by automating the loading and increasing the barrels (up to 2x), as well as increasing accuracy, this is the improvement of sighting devices, the use of space navigation and corrected mines. So there is room for improvement there ...

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

But is there a need to improve this way? The main disadvantage of mortars is not low accuracy, as mentioned in the article, but a small firing range. Until this wagon with such an undoubtedly advanced mortar gets to the accessible distance, it may turn out that there will be no one to support it with fire. And howitzer artillery or multiple launch rocket systems can provide fire support, sometimes without even leaving their places of permanent deployment, due to a significantly greater firing range.

[Andobor]

Mortar workers work with horses in the mountains.

[Dimon-chik-79]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

And howitzer artillery or multiple launch rocket systems can provide fire support, sometimes even without leaving their places of permanent deployment, due to a significantly greater firing range.

but it may not be ... there is not enough range, time, number of barrels, accuracy at long distances. the advantage of the mortar in its mobility, in transported, transported, wearable weight, dimensions of the corresponding calibers. And if it is still installed on an armored vehicle, then the deployment time is significantly reduced, plus the incomparable mobility of this installation. Compare D-30 122mm t Sleigh 120mm 3200kg and 200kg respectively, length 5m and 2m. You can even take into account the size of the shelter and the volume and time of work required for its construction. Disguise. We do not discount the possibility of transportation.

[Gippo]

"Drok" should have been yesterday.
In the mountains, the mortar is the ultimate weapon. What a pity that they were not in Afghanistan.

[Dzafdet]

There is not enough mortar for 60 mm. It is very necessary to support the squad-platoon. Yes, and the enemy has it, so there should be no problems with ammunition.