Today is the best, tomorrow is superfluous. Frigate project 22350

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Today is the best, tomorrow is superfluous. Frigate project 22350

Those who do not want or cannot accept criticism and listen to the opinions, delusions or mistakes of opponents, please - immediately switch to something else.

Let's take a close look at the highest achievement of domestic military shipbuilding, without touching the submarine fleet, project 22350 frigates, and share our opinions, doubts, assumptions.



The table (below) summarizes the performance characteristics of four ships - real probable opponents of our frigate in four theaters of military operations corresponding to our naval associations.

Norway - the choice is obvious, an active member of NATO, the land border next to the strategic bases of the Northern Fleet, the contact of the sea border and the economic zone extends to the North Pole, in the event of a military clash even in another region it will be drawn into a conflict with us against its will in fulfillment of allied obligations ...

Germany is the main NATO member in Europe, the country's navy dominates the Baltic, a traditional enemy for a century and a half.

Turkey is the largest NATO army in Europe, it controls the strategic Black Sea straits and a dynamically developing fleet.

Japan - the absence of a peace treaty with Russia since the Second World War, open territorial claims, the most modern, technologically advanced and balanced fleet in the region.

The sampling was carried out according to the principle of such a displacement, the presence of a national classification as a frigate and so that not from the last century.

The main justification for the existence of the fleet as a branch of the armed forces is the provision of strategic nuclear deterrence of a potential adversary. Directly in the fleet, this task is performed by nine SSBNs with SLBMs. And with the advent of the Kalibr long-range cruise missiles in service with the Russian Federation, which can carry nuclear warheads, among other things, the second most important task was hung on the fleet - to become their main carrier.

The INF Treaty banned the placement of launchers of this class of missiles on land. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the competence for the production of strategic aircraft aviation were lost, and now the SALT treaty has been extended for five years. But the fleet began to receive new ships and submarines at an accelerated pace, burdened with the task of being carriers of long-range cruise missiles (project 11661K; project 21631; project 22800; project 20385; project 22350; project 06363; project 885). The naval witches even came up with a term - "calibrating" everything and everyone.

The height of the flight of imagination and creative thought of shipbuilders is characterized by the answer to the mocking question "do crocodiles fly" - "yes, only low-low."

They are indulged by the naval authorities, who approve projects, push their embodiment in metal and go out of their way in attempts to effectively solve naval problems with ships unsuitable for them.

In short: all three projects of Russian RTOs are inferior in speed to the Soviet "Gadfly". With an increase in displacement up to 2200/949/870 tons versus 730 tons for the "Ovod" with a weight of 35 tons of missile ammunition on board, they are significantly inferior with the load of "Onyx" in the UVP 3S14 with a weight of 24 tons. And only the last Karakurt hulls with Pantsir-M, 76-mm AU and Igla MANPADS on board can compete in the effectiveness of air defense with the Gadgets, which have on board the outdated Osa MA air defense systems, 76-mm AU , 30-mm AK-630M and 3-year-old Strela-XNUMX MANPADS.

Regular readers are aware of the Varshavyanka torpedo armament without VNEU and lithium batteries from the publications of comrades Klimov and Timokhin, but the submarines designed to guard bases, conduct reconnaissance and escort the deployment of SSBNs can now also strike deep into enemy territory.

The most promising long-suffering project of the air defense corvette and PLO 20385 also fell under the general “calibrating”, but here one can still speak of a successful combination of peacetime combat capabilities (4 anti-ship missiles and 4 anti-aircraft missile launchers) for OVR and strike capabilities in combat (anti-ship missiles or CRBD).


I will join the majority opinion that Project 22350 frigates are good ships. And I even agree with the opinion that this is the pinnacle of what the Russian shipbuilding industry has been able to achieve in the post-Soviet period. But the worm of doubt and non-obvious shortcomings, as they say, from the devil, who is always hiding in the little things, make you think that the best frigate for today may turn out to be superfluous tomorrow.

First advantage as disadvantage


The ship carries a 130-mm A-192M "Armat" naval artillery mount.

In the pseudo-patriotic yellow press, material could well have appeared about a case "unparalleled in the world", the placement of a powerful 130-mm gun on a frigate-class ship. And they wrote the truth, and they have nothing to argue.

NATO, the Americans and the Pacific pro-Western satellites bypass destroyer-cruiser ships with only 127-mm guns. The overwhelming majority of Japanese destroyer frigates (according to the classification of the Land of the Rising Sun, these representatives belong to escort ships) are armed with artillery of this caliber. And the destroyer "Akizuki" accepted for comparison in the table is not the largest ship in terms of displacement, but still significantly surpasses our frigate.

European frigates modestly make do with single 76-mm gun mounts. Traditionally, the emphasis is on the versatility of modern large-caliber naval artillery capable of striking coastal, sea and air targets.

It is in this sequence that we will consider its effectiveness on our frigate.

What can our frigate gouge on the enemy coast of the countries shown in the table with its 130-mm cannon?

Naval bases, large ports and administrative-industrial centers on the coast are reliably covered by both the power of fleets and mine laying, and coastal anti-ship missile systems and aviation. I doubt very much that our frigate or KUG will be able to come up to a "pistol shot" of an artillery gun at such objects.

There is also the option of artillery support by a frigate of a landing on a wild unequipped coast in some fifth point of the world. But if you remember history, then even the ammunition and the power of the onboard salvos of the battleships of the Second World War did not guarantee the suppression of the enemy's coastal defenses.

What if an Abrams / Leopard with a 120-mm cannon or, even worse, a self-propelled gun in a trench with a 155-mm cannon was disguised somewhere on the shore?

Is it not a gamble to send in the 5st century a few expensive frigates without armor in dueling situations? Yes, and how to conduct reconnaissance of targets on the shore, guidance, assessment of impact results? The fire control system 10P-XNUMX "Puma" with a television sighting device with a radar and an external optical-electronic module is sharpened for more contrasting sea and air targets. It remains to apply the good old square-socket method until the ammunition is completely consumed.

It will be more justified to lift a fire support helicopter from the side without entering the zone of destruction of coastal missile systems and artillery. The dream of sailors, who have watched films about pirates of the Caribbean, to come to the shore opposite the islanders' village in loincloths, anchor on two anchors and flatten the reed huts with a side salvo, is broken forever. Roughly speaking, the modern naval commanders are not in the size of the laurels of the canonized Admiral Ushakov, who stormed the bastions with ships.

Further - more interesting, a classic sea battle. To the legendary alternatives "Bismarck" against "Richelieu" or "Iowa" against "Yamato" for modern participants, as to Australia on foot. But still. It seems to me that the most likely enemy of our frigate in a naval battle will be the American "Arleigh Burke" or one of its Japanese clones. Well, it's more objective to compare the 130-mm gun with a 127-mm gun, and not with the European three-inch guns.


Remember the saying?

When might a paratrooper need hand-to-hand combat skills? - When he runs out of cartridges and grenades, when he loses his machine gun and breaks the bayonet-knife, and when he meets another one of the same gouging.

It so happened in modern reality that the main anti-ship weapons aviation, submarines and warships became guided anti-ship missiles. They are necessarily present in the arsenal of both universal destroyer-cruisers and on board anti-submarine corvettes and air defense frigates. Their number can range from four units to theoretically possible 128. And at the same time, artillery from 40 to 130 millimeters is necessarily present on the ships-carriers of anti-ship missiles.

How can we explain the existence of this superstition?

Lack of confidence in the power and the declared probability of hitting the enemy with a specific anti-ship missile system? The desire to insure the ship, which fired a salvo of anti-ship missiles into the world as a pretty penny? The notorious economy, according to the logic of which it is not rational to spend anti-ship missiles for every purpose, can you do with an art or a torpedo? Just unwillingness to abandon the traditional method of naval combat and the ability to have a choice of means to achieve the goal?

I would venture to suggest the validity of the totality of all the arguments given, but the main one of all remains - the unknown or the very case of His Majesty.

There have been no full-fledged examples of the collision of fleets and squadrons of ships in a military confrontation since the Second World War. The Falklands and the Persian Gulf were so ambiguous in terms of the composition of opponents and so diverse in terms of the means of struggle used that they only once again emphasized the factor of uncertainty.

The maximum development of artillery systems is probably already in the past. The widespread rejection of full-fledged armoring of warships is the main argument in support of this thesis.

We leave aside the preliminary uncertainties of mutual detection of enemies, methods of determining the parameters of movement and methods of target designation, the struggle for the advantage of the first salvo and the problems of parrying it, the expediency and priorities of using anti-ship missiles or missiles on a surface target.

Let's turn our attention to a hypothetical artillery duel between our best frigate and a regular enemy destroyer.

Almost the same caliber of guns (130 mm / 127 mm, the difference is within 2%); comparable weight of the most common projectiles (F-44 high-explosive projectile weighing 33,4 kg / Mark 80 HE-PD projectile weighing 30,7 kg); gun ammunition (ready to fire) (478 (22-60) / 680 (20)); rate of fire, shot / min. (30/20) and firing range at sea targets (23 km / 23 km). It would seem that in a noble duel, the Russian ship has a slight advantage, which is supported by its smaller overall dimensions. But the descendants of noble pirates, as always, have a dagger hidden behind the bootleg in the form of an ERGM active-rocket projectile with a cluster warhead in the ammunition load, flying to a distance of up to 140 kilometers, and targeting is carried out by an inertial system using GPS navigation, which provides shooting accuracy up to 10 meters.

With such an alignment, the probability of our ship being destroyed is very high, and the impact of the quality of ammunition on the outcome of the battle in this mini-Tsushima will be absorbed for a hundred years to come.

What conclusion will our naval commanders draw: will they ask for a 22350-mm caliber gun for the frigate 152M for an analogue of the Krasnopol corrected ammunition adopted by the ground forces in 1995?

Now let's look at the most likely use of a large-caliber artillery gun on a Russian frigate - air defense.

On the VO recently there was an article "Use of captured German 105 and 128-mm anti-aircraft guns", which along the way mentioned "Efficiency" with a capital letter on the use of these guns:

“So, on average 3000 128-mm shells were spent on one downed enemy bomber. 88-mm anti-aircraft guns Flak 36 to obtain the same result spent an average of 16000 rounds. "

Take into account: what kind of object was a huge non-maneuverable subsonic aircraft, that the guns were used, as a rule, by a battery, that they were installed on concrete stationary positions, and that the main tactic of their use was barrage fire.

And transfer all these features to a modern supersonic fighter-bomber or a supersonic anti-ship cruise missile attacking modern transport or a UDC that covers our frigate with a single 130mm cannon.

It moves at a speed of 14 knots and experiences pitching and rolling in rough seas of 3-5 points. The question is, will he have time to release at the target all the ammunition ready for firing, not to mention the likelihood of hitting that very air target with a continuous burst of 30 shells?

Maybe we will simplify the situation and increase the degree of responsibility.

Directly our frigate-carrier 130-mm gun, used as an anti-aircraft gun, is attacked by four subsonic anti-ship missiles, fired in a salvo with an interval of 3 seconds. The frigate detection radar at a height of 16 meters will detect attacking anti-ship missiles at an altitude of 9 meters at a distance of 28 kilometers from the ship. The missiles travel 900 km / min at a speed of 15 km / h. or 1 kilometer in 4 seconds. The Puma control radar will turn on in emergency mode for one minute, during which time the first anti-ship missile in a salvo will overcome the line 15 kilometers from the ship and enter the zone of conducting the so-called "effective fire" of a 130-mm gun against air targets.

Now let's take a closer look at the radar antenna.

Its dimensions, frankly, are not impressive, which means that we can draw disappointing conclusions. If the AFAR radar of the Su-57 fighter has comparable dimensions and operates in the range of 8-12 GHz (wavelength 3,75-2,5 cm), then its radiation pattern width can be assumed within 2-2,5 degrees, which is sufficient for guidance of guided missile weapons of the "air-to-air" class at targets comparable to anti-ship missiles. Even if we assume the Puma control radar range of 12-15 GHz with a radiation wavelength of 2-2,5 cm and the size of the AFAR slightly exceeding the fighter one, it is possible to estimate the AP width within the range of 1-1,5 degrees at best. In this case, the chord of this angle at a distance of 15 kilometers (in fact, the width of the BP) is in the range of 260-390 meters.

Let me remind you that the radius of reliable destruction of the aircraft by 130 mm anti-aircraft projectiles is estimated at 15 meters from the point of detonation and only 8 meters for an anti-ship missile.

Preliminary conclusions can now be drawn based on reliable facts, logical reasoning, and educated guesses.

Whatever the pointing accuracy of the A-192M gun mount itself, it could hit a target commensurate with the chord length at a distance of 15 kilometers with one shot with a rather low probability. A commensurate target can be considered a warship of a class not lower than a corvette, but not an anti-ship missile.

Perhaps, the creators of the predecessor, the AK-130 gun mount, argued in a similar way, providing for a double-barreled scheme to increase the likelihood of defeat, and a rate of fire of up to 90 rounds per minute (versus 30 for the A-192M), and placement on more stable and stable platforms of projects 1144, 1164, 1155.1 and 956.

The A-192M gun mount with a rate of fire of 30 rounds per minute is capable of firing a projectile at an attacking anti-ship missile only every 2 seconds, while the anti-ship missile itself overcomes half a kilometer during this time. A projectile fired with an initial speed of 850 m / s will take at least 15 seconds to cover a distance of 18 kilometers! During this time, the moving target (our frigate) and the attacking anti-ship missile system, corrected in the direction by the signals of its own seeker, approach each other along an unpredictable trajectory. Indeed, in order to hit a rocket at a distance of 15 kilometers from the ship, you need to calculate its flight from the point where it was 18 seconds ago (that is, according to information from the detection radar at a distance of 15 + 4,5 km).

If such a game on computers would have cost even how much these candles, then the air defense forces might not have given up so categorically long-range anti-aircraft artillery guns at the peak of their perfection in favor of anti-aircraft missile systems that were just born in the mid-fifties of the last century.

Naturally, there can be no question of "barrage fire" of a single gun, which is forced every two seconds to move the point of detonation of the ammunition 500 meters closer to its own ship. And of course, all meaning is lost in the ability of the gun to transfer fire in a narrow sector to the second target assigned to fire for a second.

I will take the liberty of saying that within 30 seconds from the moment fire was opened (the start of the anti-ship missile attack at a distance of 15 km and before it approached at a distance of 7,5 km), 15 anti-aircraft 130-mm shells were fired with a predictable zero result.

So, the first of the attacking anti-ship missiles is already at a distance of 7,5 kilometers from the ship. 1 minute 20 seconds have passed since the attack was detected. The commander of the ship had to give the necessary orders for counteraction, choose the optimal tactics and course.

Oddly enough, but time has played in favor of our weapon. The width of the directional diagram of the control radar has narrowed to 130-193 meters, the spread of angular accuracy has decreased, the front of missiles reaching the same target has narrowed, detection in the optical range and adjustment of fire becomes possible, the flight path of missiles is more predictable, and the projectile to the point of explosion is only what about 9 seconds!

30 seconds remain until the best Russian frigate receives a warhead from anti-ship missiles, we will, with perseverance worthy of better use, shoot the remaining 7 shells (if the ammunition load was 22 ammunition ready for firing) or, without stopping sacredly believing in the power of 130-mm anti-aircraft shells, we will not stop a continuous burst (up to 45 shots) (if the ammunition ready for firing was 60 shots).

The author is sure that at least one of the four missiles will break through and do what it should.

Will our ship need the remainder of about 400 shells further?

The big question.

Let's draw a line under theoretical inferences. We were convinced that the use of the 130-mm gun of the frigate pr. 22350 against coastal targets is impractical because of the extremely high risks of losing the ship itself. The advantages that a 130-mm gun gives the ship in opposition to comparable opponents are offset by the technological lag in the development and use of modern "smart" ammunition. When responding to modern challenges in the field of air defense of a ship carrying a 130-mm universal gun, the latter has a near-zero efficiency.

A simple solution


Given the current state of affairs in the Russian military-industrial complex, is it possible to eliminate the lack of equipment of the country's best frigate, which was mistaken for an advantage?

If we overcome group stereotypes and harmful traditionalism, then the solution lies on the surface, and it is simple, like everything great.

When ordering subsequent hulls of Project 22350 frigates, it will be necessary to abandon the 130-mm universal gun mount, which is heavy for it, in favor of the no less universal 100-mm gun mount A-190-01. Today it is still the best choice from what exists in metal and is mastered in production.

Arguments

With the dubious advantage of a 130-mm gun in a firing range of 23 kilometers versus 21 kilometers for a 100-mm gun, the difference in the weight of the gun mounts is beyond doubt (25 tons versus 15). The weight of a minute volley of a 100-mm gun 1248 kilograms (the weight of a projectile is 15,6 kg at a rate of fire of 80 rds / min.) Was higher than that of a 130-mm gun - 1002 kg (a projectile weight of 33,4 kg at a rate of fire of 30 rds. / min.), which is undoubtedly preferable in any of the considered confrontations.

If the figure of the installed ammunition load on the ship for the A-192M gun is correct at 478 rounds (weighing 52,8 kg), then this will pull another 25,2 tons with the corresponding volume. Let's say that the updated frigate with the faster-firing A-190-01 gun will be equipped with twice the ammunition load (956 rounds, each weighing 26,8 kg), but even then this pleasure will cost only 25,6 tons.

Gun mount A-190-01 with a rate of fire of 80 rds / min. has 80 rounds of ammunition ready to fire. On MRK pr. 21631, the total ammunition stock of 100-mm projectiles is 320 pieces, that is, four reloads. The limit of reasonable ammunition sufficiency on a first rank frigate is proposed to consider 640 ammunition or eight reloads, which will weigh 17,2 tons. Thus, having saved, in fact, when replacing 10 tons with a lighter artillery mount, we will also add savings on the weight of unitary rounds of ammunition - 8 tons. How to properly dispose of the existing weight reserve of 18 tons and volume - we will consider later.

There is no hope of resorting to common sense from the silent naval leadership.

When arming frigates of the first rank with the 100-mm gun mount A-190-01, superiority over European opponents will be preserved, and with larger Americans and Japanese, it is necessary to fight not with artillery, but with anti-ship missiles and anti-aircraft missiles, which are enough on board the frigate.

Otherwise, simply retreat to the base to replenish ammunition to save the unit.

To be continued ...
155 comments
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  1. +13
    17 June 2021 04: 11
    There is definitely a sound grain in the author's reasoning.
    IMHO, the situation when a modern URO ship will need its 130mm cannon is so hypothetical that it would be better to install another UVP with missiles.
    1. +64
      17 June 2021 05: 39
      In general, the purpose of the ship's gun is not air defense (this is an option, sometimes very useful), but the defeat of less priority targets and finished off damaged enemy ships. After all, frigates (and other ships) need to be ready not only for a battle with enemy ships, but also for the interception of convoys, a sea blockade of water areas, the defeat of transports and civilian ships. Well, not an anti-ship missile to use for this? And not missiles, which sometimes can be more expensive than anti-ship missiles.
      Maybe such a tool and means of coercion to surrender.
      And there may also be a sudden line-of-sight battle. While you aim the anti-ship missile, you enter the target parameters, you will be sunk five times already.
      SAM?
      Yes, in such cases, as a rule, combat with the use of missiles is provided. But you can't sink the ship with an anti-aircraft missile. You can dazzle by demolishing the antenna sheets, cause a fire. But you need to finish off with artillery. For SAMs for such purposes are not stocked.
      And it is in this role - a means against enemy ships, this weapon is optimal, because our frigate and destroyer and cruiser will be able to turn it around. In such a case (work on the ship), the power of the projectile is much more important than the higher rate of fire of a lighter weapon.
      And for air defense there are medium and short-range missiles, there are 30 mm double-barreled gun mounts. caliber with a rate of fire of 10 rounds per minute, there are means of electronic warfare and RTP.
      And there is no need to pull the owl onto the globe with non-core tasks for the only gun on the ship.
      We would have to wait for these frigates in the Fleet.
      And not only to the North.
      1. +9
        17 June 2021 10: 52
        Quote: bayard
        Maybe such a tool and means of coercion to surrender ...
        But you need to finish off with artillery

        The author does not offer the same complete rejection of artillery. And it seems like you can finish off 100-mm, especially a small target. In this regard, so far the idea of ​​replacing the gun mount with a lighter one looks sensible.

        The 130-mm caliber would definitely sparkle with new colors in the event of the appearance of guided projectiles: here the size of the ammunition would give more space to engineers. The output could be a kind of cheap almost-missile, suitable for both air defense and for work on ground / surface targets at long ranges. But there is no such thing yet.
        1. +1
          17 June 2021 16: 46
          Quote: Kalmar
          The author does not offer the same complete rejection of artillery.

          He suggests reducing its caliber.
          Quote: Kalmar
          And it seems like a 100-mm can be finished off, especially a medium-sized target.

          And where can we recruit medium-sized targets for our frigates? To hunt fishing junks? Our opponents have larger ships and there are many of them.
          And if you need to heat military transports? Or civil / mobilized ships?
          Here is such a transport in the amount of 40 - 000 tons. smile , and we cannon 76 - 100 mm. will we pick?
          And if a container ship mobilized in 150 - 000 tons of VI?
          Or a tanker, from the side of which is 76 mm. shells, perhaps, will bounce.
          A 100 mm. - like a mosquito bite a hippopotamus.
          A shell weighing 32,4 kg looks like a much more convincing argument than 100 mm. a projectile of 15,6 kg. Moreover, such a projectile, with a rate of fire of 30 rounds per minute, will be able to confidently pick out ships of the frigate / destroyer / cruiser class at a distance of direct visibility (radio visibility). And here is the 100 mm cannon. may not cope.
          Quote: Kalmar
          A caliber of 130 mm would definitely sparkle with new colors in the event of the appearance of guided projectiles: here the size of the ammunition would give more space to engineers.

          Leave it to the tanks. Another thing is that all naval guns need shells with remote detonation. And to defeat not the CD (for which there are SAM and ZAK / ZRAK), but drones, which have become a serious threat, and the air defense systems currently available are not sufficiently effective and justified. One SAM can be an order of magnitude, or even two more expensive than the drone itself, and be insufficiently effective. 30 mm. projectiles can be missed in range. And this is where the advantage of a universal naval gun comes out.
          1. +6
            17 June 2021 16: 55
            Quote: bayard
            Our opponents have larger ships and there are many of them.

            Yes, and the main weapon against them is anti-ship missiles. Artillery is a last resort.

            Quote: bayard
            Here is such a transport in the 40 - 000 tons, and we use it with a 60 - 000 mm cannon. will we pick?

            In general, the author gives specific figures: the total weight of a minute's salvo of the A-190 is even greater than that of the A-192. The caliber was important before, when the shell had yet to pierce the armor; unarmored transport and 100mm perfectly riddled.

            Quote: bayard
            The 32,4 kg projectile looks like a much more convincing argument than 100 mm. a projectile of 15,6 kg.

            Again, we take into account the rate of fire: for two 130 mm projectiles, there will be about five 100 mm. Which of this will cause a greater pogrom?

            Quote: bayard
            Leave it to the tanks. Another thing is that all naval guns need shells with remote detonation.

            So one does not interfere with the other, even contributes. If we want to dump a drone from a long range, some kind of projectile control will be very useful. Of course, the question of cost arises (in relation to missiles), but all this must already be considered after the fact.
            1. +5
              17 June 2021 18: 48
              Quote: Kalmar
              Yes, and the main weapon against them is anti-ship missiles. Artillery is a last resort.

              And the cases are different. Here on ships for different cases, different tools are provided. Otherwise, you can agree that a gun (even in a single copy) is not needed at all - "there are missiles."
              Quote: Kalmar

              In general, the author gives specific figures: the total weight of a minute's salvo of the A-190 is even greater than that of the A-192. The caliber was important before, when the shell had yet to pierce the armor; unarmored transport and 100mm perfectly riddled.

              Size matters . So after the RYAV all over the world (and in the Republic of Ingushetia in the first place) they came to the conclusion that 75 mm. for mine artillery it is categorically not enough (!). But the destroyers of that time had a VI 350 - 450 tons !!! And they had no armor.
              Can you imagine?
              And for such unarmored ships, the caliber is 75 mm. proved to be insufficient.
              After that, mine artillery was already 102 and 120 mm all over the world.
              And you therefore offer 76 and 100 mm. cannons with watercraft VI in tens and hundreds of thousands of tons, to play?
              Holes can be made. But critical damage ... may not be able to.
              All the more so to sink.
              Quote: Kalmar

              Quote: bayard
              The 32,4 kg projectile looks like a much more convincing argument than 100 mm. a projectile of 15,6 kg.

              Again, we take into account the rate of fire: for two 130 mm projectiles, there will be about five 100 mm. Which of this will cause a greater pogrom?

              Power.
              When every projectile that hits the target causes serious damage.
              You simply may not have enough time left to stuff the enemy ship / ship with hundreds of shells. This is not a shooting range, not a shooting range or a shooting range. You will be answered. And what a happiness to spend all your BC, so that, perhaps, not even flood the enemy ship / ship.
              And do not worry so, together with the author, our 100 mm. the tool is also a very worthy tool, and it is put on many ships. On MRK, corvettes, frigates (not 22350 series), namely 100 mm. the gun is installed on the upgraded BOD 1155, turning them into frigates with one 100 mm. cannon.
              But the General Staff of the Navy decided that the frigates 22350 should have 130 mm. tool. And believe me, a lot was taken into account there.
              In the end, during WWII, the caliber and power of tank guns grew continuously. Although it was possible, as you and the author of the article, to leave the 45 and 76,2 mm guns - they have a higher rate of fire.
              And the effectiveness.
              And what about efficiency?
              So it is here. The shell of the naval cannon must not only fly to the target, but overcome all obstacles and constructive protection in order to reach and hit the critical elements of the ship. And to inflict serious enough damage, you need a sufficient power of the projectile. And believe me, the power is 130 mm. the projectile is not even twice the power of 100 mm. , but as if not 4 times.
              As an example, I will give you a comparison of the hitting effect of 122 \ 125 mm. projectile and projectile 152 mm. caliber when entering a capital building. For example, in a residential building.
              With a difference in the weight of the shells of 1,7 - 2 times, when 122 \ 125 mm. the shell hits a residential building, it leaves a hole in the wall up to 1m. diameter and knocks out (maximum) one or two partitions. And when a 152 mm projectile hits a residential building. , the whole staircase collapses.
              Can you catch the difference?
              But the relative difference in the weight of the projectiles is 100 and 130 mm. even more - about 2,2 times!
              So again, size matters.
              To pierce the side, partitions and constructive protection of the enemy destroyer's airborne command and control unit, after which they will detonate, they are guaranteed to sink the ship ...
              What do you choose?
              And the naval guns are 130 mm. caliber we have historically good.
              Quote: Kalmar
              So one does not interfere with the other, even contributes. If we want to dump a drone from a long range, some kind of projectile control will be very useful. Of course, the question of cost arises (in relation to missiles), but all this must already be considered after the fact.

              it is better then to use a normal missile defense system of the appropriate range and not to fence a garden from scratch. The sparrow cannon (UAV) is interesting because it shoots relatively inexpensive projectiles, which, possessing remote detonation, are quite effective for hitting a low-speed and low-maneuverable target.
              A cheap target must be hit with cheap ammunition.
              Otherwise you will go broke.
              This has already come to the Military Air Defense, "Derivation-Air Defense" - just such a tool against UAVs, with remote detonation of ammunition.
              1. +2
                17 June 2021 22: 38
                Quote: bayard
                So after the RYAV all over the world (and in the Republic of Ingushetia in the first place) they came to the conclusion that 75 mm. for mine artillery it is categorically not enough (!)
                ...
                And you therefore offer 76 and 100 mm. cannons with watercraft VI in tens and hundreds of thousands of tons, to play?

                Firstly, since the days of the RYA, small-caliber guns have significantly increased in characteristics: there is data on the firing range and weight of a minute salvo in the article.
                Secondly, sinking a tanker in a hundred tons with a cannon of 100 or 130mm is long and sad in any case. Out of despair - it is possible, but in other cases it is more practical to use light anti-ship missiles (Harpoon, Kh-35) or good old aerial bombs.

                Quote: bayard
                You simply may not have enough time left to stuff the enemy ship / ship with hundreds of shells

                It will still not work to sink the ship with one shell, i.e. in any case, the shelling will take some time, during which you will have to throw in a certain amount of ammunition. In one case, they are more powerful, in the other, there will be more of them.

                Quote: bayard
                And do not worry so, together with the author, our 100 mm. the weapon is also a very worthy tool, and it is put on many ships

                You somehow misinterpret my attitude to the topic. I do not worry at all, I just reason logically about the arguments given by the author. In any case, it is unlikely that after this article, project 22350 will rush under the new gun to remake))

                Quote: bayard
                And believe me, the power is 130 mm. the projectile is not even twice the power of 100 mm. , but as if not 4 times.

                Perhaps quite possible. Here, clinical trials are already needed on objects that accurately imitate the target. I hope they really took place.

                Quote: bayard
                it is better then to use a normal missile defense system of the appropriate range and not to fence a garden from scratch ... A cheap target must be hit with cheap ammunition

                This is why I made a reservation about the cost: it is obvious that in fact it is necessary to compare which is more effective. Then, the economics of war can be tricky: a cheap target can cause very expensive damage, and then it will not be a pity to iron it out with something non-budgetary, if only it would help.
                1. -2
                  18 June 2021 01: 05
                  Quote: Kalmar

                  Firstly, since the days of the RYA, small-caliber guns have significantly increased in characteristics: there is data on the firing range and weight of a minute salvo in the article.
                  Secondly, sinking a tanker in a hundred tons with a cannon of 100 or 130mm is long and sad in any case. Out of despair - it is possible, but in other cases it is more practical to use light anti-ship missiles (Harpoon, Kh-35) or good old aerial bombs.

                  It's better to drown a big cow with a torpedo, as all normal guys did. But on the last ships, heavy torpedoes, as a rule, are not found ... and a light one may not be enough.
                  And with a cannon, you can smash the wheelhouse, get shells to the propulsion system, if penetration and power allow (130 mm gives more chances for this). Well, and on the nose, so that on the go, I collect more water.
                  And against warships with a large cannon, it's more fun, because our frigates will have to play a firefight with destroyers and cruisers.
                  Quote: Kalmar
                  It will still not work to sink the ship with one shell, i.e. in any case, the shelling will take some time, during which you will have to throw in a certain amount of ammunition. In one case, they are more powerful, in the other, there will be more of them.

                  Those that are larger will penetrate deeper and turn more violently.
                  Multiple.
                  Quote: Kalmar
                  You somehow misinterpret my attitude to the topic. I do not worry at all, I just reason logically about the arguments given by the author. In any case, it is unlikely that after this article, project 22350 will rush under the new gun to remake))

                  There can be only one conclusion, that the upgraded 1155s will have a good gun.
                  And more anti-ship missiles.
                  Quote: Kalmar
                  This is why I made a reservation about the cost: it is obvious that in fact it is necessary to compare which is more effective. Then, the economics of war can be tricky: a cheap target can cause very expensive damage, and then it will not be a pity to iron it out with something non-budgetary, if only it would help.

                  For all occasions on the ship you need to have everything you need. One component of this necessary is the cannon. It is not necessary to make a station wagon out of her beyond measure, she already knows how to do a lot.
                2. avg
                  0
                  18 June 2021 14: 44
                  Quote: Kalmar
                  Perhaps quite possible. Here, clinical trials are already needed on objects that accurately imitate the target. I hope they really took place.

                  Yes, hundreds of thousands of such, millions of tests. Just trust me, don't be like an inquisitive elementary school student who just discovered the multiplication table.
                  1. +2
                    18 June 2021 15: 27
                    Quote: avg
                    Yes, hundreds of thousands of such, millions of tests.

                    In general, the problem of testing naval weapons has already been raised in several articles on the military. In short: not everything is so smooth. As a result, items of, shall we say, very dubious properties enter service (you can recall the USET-80 torpedo or the Zaslon radar, for example). In this context, it is really interesting to what extent the testing of artillery goes beyond the conventional "well, it seems to shoot" ...
          2. 0
            18 June 2021 09: 29
            30 rounds per minute ... Modern software has up to 90 rounds per barrel. rather 60. and 30 ... everything is so bad, can't we copy a 50-year-old cannon? ..
        2. +1
          17 June 2021 17: 43
          The author does not offer the same complete rejection of artillery. And it seems like you can finish off 100-mm, especially a small target. In this regard, so far the idea of ​​replacing the gun mount with a lighter one looks sensible.

          The only option in which it is advisable to abandon 130mm and install a 100mm gun with smaller dimensions is to install another universal cell for 8 missiles)))
          100mm +8 Caliber extra - this is already a reason to think)))
      2. +2
        2 July 2021 01: 08
        The weight of a salvo per minute is still better at 100mm, and within the framework of the sinking of the ship, the difference in the defeat of the hull is not so great.
        Thanks to the author, excellent analysis
    2. -11
      17 June 2021 07: 17
      I remember when Paul the First abandoned the halberds in the infantry ... why burden the ship with the guns of the last century? now is the missile time.
      1. +6
        17 June 2021 10: 26
        A warship should also serve in peacetime, but imagine a picture of how it is forcing a scandal with pirates to surrender, or threatening smugglers with cruise missiles, and not with shots of a ship's gun along the course ... Well, you get the idea.
        1. +6
          17 June 2021 12: 41
          Quote: Sergey Obraztsov
          A warship should serve in peacetime, but imagine a picture of how it forces to surrender what kind of thread is a scow with pirates, or smugglers

          On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, chasing pirates with frigates is somewhat dashing (and is the problem of piracy so acute for us?). In general, the FSB border service deals with smugglers. Finally, even a 57-mm gun is enough for the aforementioned compulsion for the eyes; 130 are clearly redundant here.
          1. +5
            17 June 2021 14: 08
            Quote: Kalmar
            On the other hand, chasing pirates with frigates is somewhat dashing (and is the problem of piracy so acute for us?)

            Love is changeable, said the hedgehog getting off the shoe brush!
          2. 0
            17 June 2021 20: 59
            Quote: Kalmar
            On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, chasing pirates with frigates is somewhat dashing (and is the problem of piracy so acute for us?). In general, the FSB border service deals with smugglers. Finally, even a 57-mm gun is enough for the aforementioned compulsion for the eyes; 130 are clearly redundant here.

            I agree, sorry, I hurried and didn't read it and wrote the same thing myself
        2. +1
          17 June 2021 20: 57
          Quote: Sergey Obraztsov
          A warship must serve in peacetime

          in the article, this question is just posed, the Europeans use a 75 mm caliber on frigates, and for pirate scows a large-caliber machine gun is enough, and even a wearable one, why do they need 130 mm?
        3. +2
          2 July 2021 01: 10
          35mm RainMetall trrr says hello. Excellent accuracy plus smart ammunition - and not only air defense functions, but also point-fire scows at your disposal.
        4. -1
          30 July 2021 01: 46
          He has a helicopter on board, add a boatswain with a matyugalnik and a machine gun, this will be behind the eyes of pirates and smugglers. And the interception is faster.
      2. +2
        17 June 2021 14: 06
        Quote: vladimir1155
        now is the missile time.

        Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev is not your relative?
        1. 0
          17 June 2021 21: 00
          Quote: Serg65
          Khrushchev Nikita Sergeevich

          this is my sworn opponent, but the question of the prospects of missile weapons is really more important
          1. -1
            18 June 2021 07: 21
            Quote: vladimir1155
            this is my nemesis

            laughing But at the same time, you are happy to repeat his mistakes!
      3. 0
        18 June 2021 09: 32
        yeah ... let the nano gun be installed, the redhead definitely invented it, and run it on mercury with nano-coating from the same character. and nano rockets about 100500.
    3. +7
      17 June 2021 10: 26
      There is definitely a sound grain in the author's reasoning.

      No, he has a manipulation.)))
      130 is quite good for a frigate. It turns out a rather sharp-toothed frigate - and that's good.
      130 mm can work quite successfully throughout, and the author considered this.
      He did not consider only one thing, that our opponents (frigates) have only 8 anti-ship missiles, against 64 missiles. And there is a very high probability that these 64 missiles will be able to shoot down these 8 anti-ship missiles. Then what? ))) And then he decides who has the larger and longer-range main caliber - and here 130mm is much better than 75mm.
      The second important nuance is enemy civilian ships, for example, a supertanker (and such situations should not be ruled out). It may not be enough for 8 anti-ship missiles before sinking, you will have to use torpedoes and hit with a 130mm cannon in the waterline area. A 75 mm cannon with this option will be quite bad here.
      The author's second gap is the air defense capabilities of the 130mm cannon. The author makes comparisons of the Second World War, with shooting by eye - this is approximately the same as the accuracy of the V-2 of those years, with a modern high-precision missile.
      The use of projectiles with remote detonation and a full computer calculation of detonation dramatically increase the effectiveness of a 130mm projectile (it must be introduced into the fleet)
      The only thing the author is unconditionally right about is that we need extended-range projectiles for a 130mm naval cannon.
      Well, the author writes quite well.
      1. +4
        17 June 2021 12: 49
        Quote: lucul
        And then he decides who has the larger and longer-range main caliber - and here 130mm is much better than 75mm.

        The main message of the article is the recommendation to replace the A-192 with the A-190 in caliber 100 mm. With a slight loss in range, it gives an advantage in the weight of a minute salvo and the total weight of the installation with ammunition. In such situations, it is possible to make holes in supertankers quite successfully, and damage enemy frigates. And, importantly, 100 mm is still more than 76, so those who like to measure in millimeters are also happy))
        1. 0
          17 June 2021 15: 52
          The Americans wanted to put 2 155mm irons on their irons and I didn’t hear something about redundancy, but only extremely laudatory reviews with a fly in the ointment in the form of the price of shells.
          1. +3
            17 June 2021 16: 40
            Because they wanted to throw guided projectiles at some unrealistic range (hundreds of kilometers). In fact, it would no longer be so much a weapon as a launcher for small missiles. Laudatory reviews poured in from marketers, but the final price tag for the shells - yes, it turned out to be much more frightening than the shells themselves))
      2. 0
        17 June 2021 13: 33
        winked then it is easier for the Shell / Palm to screw the missiles from Hermes into the bk .. it will be normal in terms of range ..
      3. +2
        2 July 2021 01: 13
        Yeah, only our frigate has not 8, but 16 anti-ship missiles, this is one, two, 8 anti-ship missiles will drown the aircraft carrier, and the tanker will only have a couple of high-explosive shells and here's an ecological disaster and a fire.
        And two, 76mm or 100mm with a much higher rate of fire are much more useful with ammunition norms and have a much better chance of hitting an air or small sea high-speed target than garbage with a rate of fire of only 30 rounds per minute.
        By the way, EM 956 says hello with its almost five tons of salvo weight per minute ...
  2. +5
    17 June 2021 05: 33
    The hitting of a 130-ku in comparison with "only" a 127 mm gun is strange - it is practically the same caliber (like 152 and 155). Well, if you "drown" for the replacement of artillery weapons, then not in the direction of decreasing but in the direction of increasing the caliber (6 "-8"). there will be a qualitative jump in range and power (including the use of nuclear warheads), (Project 22350M) will not lead to any difficulties in placement.
    1. +4
      17 June 2021 10: 56
      Quote: mark1
      in the direction of increasing the caliber (6 "-8") t. there will be a qualitative jump in range and power (including the use of nuclear warheads)

      What's the point? Long-range shooting involves converting the projectile into a missile with a very small warhead. Americans have been playing with this theme for a long time, while it is too expensive and not particularly productive. YABCH, in urgent need, can be pushed in 120-130mm, but, again, why? Plus, we understand that a large caliber means a sharp increase in the mass of the installation, as well as the load on the ship's hull (the recoil will not be weak) - is it worth it?
      1. +2
        17 June 2021 20: 41
        YABCH, if urgently needed, can be pushed in 120-130mm

        You know, nobody could. bully
        1. -2
          30 July 2021 02: 46
          Davey Crockett was somehow crammed into a 120mm M28. And considering that this is the stone age of nuclear weapons ..
          1. +1
            30 July 2021 07: 32


            You will study more attentively what and how "shoved".
            And everything will fall into place. Yes
            1. -3
              30 July 2021 21: 21
              Muzzle-loading caramultuk Yes It was from some old Chechen muzzle loader or something. laughing
              152-mm nuclear missile half a century ago, sit at night with a bottle of vodka and shove in 130.
    2. +4
      17 June 2021 18: 21
      in the direction of increasing the caliber (6 "-8") t. there will be a qualitative jump in range and power (including the use of nuclear warheads)

      When do you think the 152 mm nuclear submarine was removed from service? wink
      And before such a caliber was not put on the fleet, so that the opposite side would not be agitated by a similar decrease in the threshold for the use of nuclear warheads.
      The States, in the 70s, made an excellent Mark 71 automatic cannon (203 mm), but they did not start production either. For the same reason.
      On the Arleigh Burke Flight III, at first, the 155 mm cannon was discussed (in memory of Zamvolt), but also the 127 mm remained. Something like this. hi
      1. 0
        17 June 2021 20: 11
        Quote: Alex777
        excellent automatic cannon Mark 71 (203 mm)
        did not perform air defense functions - one of the reasons (it is still a stumbling block).
        Quote: Alex777
        lowering the threshold for the use of nuclear warheads.

        For the period of the Cold War, this is nonsense, remember the cruisers pr.68bis and "New Jersey" "
        1. 0
          17 June 2021 20: 22
          For the period of the Cold War, this is nonsense, remember the cruisers pr.68bis and "New Jersey" "

          Well, well ... I won't argue. hi
    3. +2
      2 July 2021 01: 15
      Weight and rate of fire 203mm?
      The tasks that you are going to solve for her?
      Build Demoyne, what what like fuckers
  3. -3
    17 June 2021 05: 57
    Quote: Author
    Naval bases, large ports and administrative-industrial centers on the coast are reliably covered ...

    who said that we stupidly trample on birth?
    work in a complex - aviation, KR, etc.
    first the protection is ironed, then our frigate enters and ironing the enemy shore with its 130-mm cannon.
    and "calibrating" the "mosquito fleet" of the MRK spetsialbach is able to revive our "partners" in NATO.
    1. -5
      17 June 2021 07: 31
      A response special warfare unit for Kaliningrad, for example, will have a no less sobering effect.
  4. +23
    17 June 2021 06: 45
    What if an Abrams / Leopard with a 120-mm cannon or, even worse, a self-propelled gun in a trench with a 155-mm cannon was disguised somewhere on the shore?
    And how can we beat Abrams for 2-3 dozen kilometers.
    Dear Topvar administration, please type the author's name along with the title.
    1. +5
      17 June 2021 06: 59
      Damn) and it was this pearl that I just missed)))) although there are enough of them without it)))
    2. +2
      17 June 2021 10: 33
      Quote: Termit1309
      And how can we beat Abrams for 2-3 dozen kilometers.

      Or maybe this is a special coastal defense "Abrams" with an anti-ship cannon? laughing Who knows what our likely friends have created? laughing laughing
    3. +7
      17 June 2021 10: 58
      "Abrams", of course, garbage, but a self-propelled gun, in theory, can spoil the skin of a frigate. Especially if there is a whole battery. From the frigate her, the battery, you may not notice (camouflage, closed position, that's all), and we do not have air reconnaissance everywhere and not always.
      1. +2
        17 June 2021 12: 52
        Tanks are not bullshit either. The other day, panic on the network passed that the US destroyer was going to pass through the Kerch Strait. So in this case, a tank company from a T-72 is very strong. If you meet them in the narrowest part of the strait, the destroyer in such a place will have nothing to shrug them off. wassat
        1. +4
          17 June 2021 12: 56
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          The other day, panic on the network passed that the US destroyer was going to pass through the Kerch Strait. So in this case, a tank company from a T-72 is very strong.

          In this case, this is a purely political action, a kind of demonstrative wagging backwards in front of the enemy's nose. In a combat situation, the destroyer is unlikely to approach the coast until it (the coast) is properly fertilized with TNT.
          1. +2
            17 June 2021 13: 24
            But if this happens, it will be the first time in history, laughing when a tank company sends a destroyer to the bottom. fellow
            1. +2
              2 July 2021 01: 16
              Series Sea Wolf, book 15th, or something ..... The cruiser Mogami was sunk from the su-122-54
      2. +5
        17 June 2021 14: 14
        Quote: Kalmar
        Especially if there is a whole battery

        Yeah, every enemy battery can shoot perfectly at a moving sea target ... at the 31st training ground, I saw enough of such shooting, hits to the shield were so rare that it is not worth talking about them.
        1. +2
          17 June 2021 14: 54
          Quote: Serg65
          Yeah, every enemy battery can shoot perfectly at a moving sea target

          Maybe yes maybe no. In any case, being where the enemy throws projectiles is not a good idea. Probability theory can be tricky))
      3. +1
        17 June 2021 18: 04
        Can the battery work on a maneuvering target? Moreover, having given out its position, the battery may well wait in response not only to a salvo of artillery, but also a full-fledged Caliber.
    4. 0
      17 June 2021 13: 34
      here is another moment .. which is better in work on the shore and NK-offs with 1,5 kg of explosives or 3,5 kg of explosives?
    5. -2
      30 July 2021 02: 57
      One day, a battalion of Shermans feigned flight lured several Panthers to the seashore. The Panthers, who had barely climbed the crest of the dunes, saw the muzzles of the main caliber guns of the battleship "Nelson" pointed at them. The battleship grinned disgustingly and with the words: "Well, who offends the little ones," vaporized two Panthers, forcing the rest to flee. But, naturally, this could not last long.
  5. +9
    17 June 2021 07: 32
    so I still did not understand how, after reading this article, the designers in the article should behave as competitors of the mentioned Norwegian, Turkish and German frigates, where the caliber of the artillery unit is only 76 mm. Laugh at the Russians, why the hell to install 130 mm guns, when, in the opinion of this Russian expert, having virtually the same number of missiles, a frigate and a 76 mm gun is equivalent to a frigate with a 130 mm gun. Indeed, of the four competitors to the Russian frigate, the author arranged the disassembly only by comparing the Japanese frigates with a 127 mm gun, and then he praised the Japanese corvette for minus 2% of the caliber. So what odes should be praised if the caliber art. installations as much as minus 50%, and the author still shoves frigates with such a caliber of artillery installations into one table, as full-fledged competitors to the Russian frigates of project 22350.
    Or maybe the Norwegians, Turks and Germans, with the actual same number of missiles as on the Russian frigate, simply could not create and place on their frigates such a compact tower artillery installation as the Russians? And I also want to ask the author if he ever saw the difference in destruction after being hit by a 76 mm ship artillery shell and art. projectile with a caliber of 130 mm? Probably not seen ...
    1. +8
      17 June 2021 11: 02
      Quote: north 2
      a frigate with a 76 mm gun is equivalent to a frigate with a 130 mm gun

      If I understood correctly, the author hints that the caliber of the gun affects the final power of the frigate, let's say, not much. Approximately as the length of a bayonet-knife to the combat effectiveness of an infantryman. If this is the case, then you can reduce the caliber (without especially losing in efficiency), while freeing up space for more useful things. We are waiting for the next article about what to do with the 18 tons obtained in this way.
      1. 0
        17 June 2021 13: 36
        for canned food .. what else ..
    2. 0
      18 June 2021 00: 18
      Quote: north 2
      Or maybe the Norwegians, Turks and Germans, with the actual same number of missiles as on the Russian frigate, simply could not create and place on their frigates such a compact tower artillery installation as the Russians?

      But these are the keywords !!! The rest is fiction.
    3. +2
      2 July 2021 01: 18
      This overheating shit still needs to be done, I agree here, very few people are capable of this.
  6. +4
    17 June 2021 07: 38
    "anti-ship missile warheads"
    The author saw the anti-ship missile system, does he know its device?
    The title of the article contains intrigue, but it turns out that "swing for a ruble, a blow for a penny", an article about an artillery mount, which can only be argued about by gun fans, and manufacturers in the fight for a government contract.
    1. 517
      -1
      17 June 2021 18: 50
      Quote: Bez 310
      The author saw the anti-ship missile system, does he know its device?
      There is intrigue in the title of the article

      Don't be so harsh, you are the navigator laughing
      This is not an article, but a "creak of a shattered sofa" lol
  7. +1
    17 June 2021 09: 24
    Quote: Bez 310
    and manufacturers in the fight for a government contract.

    The feeling that the article was written in the interests of one of them does not leave ...
    1. 517
      0
      17 June 2021 19: 37
      Quote: Ivanchester
      the article was written in the interests of one of them ...

      she
      maybe just IKEA lol
  8. 0
    17 June 2021 09: 38
    With one I can definitely agree more than one 130 mm gun, and even 3-4 will not make the weather during the landing. Already in Normandy and Okinawa, our "allies" had calibers 381-406 and still they could not completely shoot the barrels into the trash clear the shore
    1. 517
      -3
      17 June 2021 19: 39
      Quote: Luty
      With one I can definitely agree with more than one 130 mm gun, and even 3-4 will not make the weather during a landing.

      see the real tasks of our MP, for example on Dahlak or Mogadishu
      even one AK-192 (with an excellent control system and especially a UAV) is very, very good
      1. +2
        17 June 2021 21: 44
        It is curious what the tasks of the RF MP in Efipoia were, where they gave us a turn from the gate, and even more so in Mogadishu.? Do you really think that the policy of gunboats will take a ride in the 21st century, when there are a lot of predators on the teeth))))
        1. 517
          -3
          17 June 2021 23: 12
          Quote: Luty
          turn from the gate and even more so in Mogadishu

          in Ethiopia - the USSR ended
          otherwise, the enemy would simply dare
          in Mogadishu the task was successfully completed
          1. +1
            18 June 2021 09: 55
            This is exactly what happened in the past. Will the Russian MP land in Africa today? Modest PMCs solve many problems, and it is not our style to strangle the natives for money. This is how our western partners have worked and are still working.
  9. +3
    17 June 2021 09: 38
    Of course, I have never been the sea, but the author, in my opinion, too!
  10. -1
    17 June 2021 09: 48
    If you need to fire at a concentration of enemy troops or warehouses and enemy port infrastructure, then a caliber of 100 mm will be almost useless, which cannot be said about 130 mm. Better yet, see the 152mm Coalition in a naval version, which will be able to use tactical nuclear weapons at significantly greater distances.
    1. +3
      17 June 2021 18: 09
      And it will weigh one and a half times more. We have already discussed it.
      1. -1
        17 June 2021 18: 14
        Well, of course, if you're talking about the "Coalition". But it's worth it, the most important thing is that the boat withstands the recoil.
        1. +2
          17 June 2021 18: 23
          With the return, everything is complicated. With weight, everything is complicated. With ammunition, everything is complicated. For a tactical nuclear, 4 Hermes missiles are lighter. And even that nuclear on the frigate is a little inflection.
          1. 0
            2 July 2021 01: 21
            Come on, tell this anti-ship missiles like tomahawks and tactical bombs for the F-15, 18
  11. +2
    17 June 2021 10: 52
    I may not understand something here, but why GPS for a MOVING target is an advantage. If I remember correctly, then GPS only plays against stationary targets. Therefore, only the range plays, but at a distance of more than 40-50 km, correction is necessary already with external target designation.

    As for the radar, then there is also a bobble. The fact is that the scanning beam is really small (and it should be so), but the range and scanning speed are more important parameters.
    1. 0
      17 June 2021 12: 53
      Quote: alstr
      If I remember correctly, then GPS only plays against stationary targets.

      Let me imagine: knowing the projectile flight time and target movement parameters (course, speed), you can calculate the coordinates of the meeting place and leave the projectiles there. At relatively short ranges, it may work. How feasible in practice is difficult to say.
      1. +2
        17 June 2021 15: 15
        And the fact that the course can change did not think? And the time of approaching 100 km is about 10 minutes.
        + KVO is present.
        Therefore, it is useless - just a waste of EXPENSIVE ammunition without a control unit. Yes, and with the control center too.
        At short distances, you can use your own radar for corrections, but further on - only external target designation.
        1. +2
          17 June 2021 15: 29
          Quote: alstr
          And the time of approaching 100 km is about 10 minutes.

          Therefore, I made a reservation about short ranges. To fire at 100 km without homing, of course, there is simply no point. Kilometers 15-20 - you can already try. Of course, this is not some kind of working concept, but just thinking out loud)
          1. +2
            17 June 2021 18: 12
            20 km. 40 seconds of flight. If the target ship detects shots, then during this time it will calmly dodge.
            1. +1
              17 June 2021 18: 22
              Quote: garri-lin
              20 km. 40 seconds of flight. If the target ship detects shots, then during this time it will calmly dodge.

              The question is, at what distance he will be able to detect the incoming projectile. The RCS of the projectile is very small, there is no engine.
              1. +1
                17 June 2021 18: 27
                The enemy ship is 20 kilometers from yours. At sea, this is the line-of-sight distance. In normal weather. In the weather in which the use of weapons is permissible, you can also consider. Apparatus. I think the fact of the shot will be visible at the moment of the shot.
              2. -2
                2 July 2021 01: 22
                Fig your shells are slow, what is it, the times of the Crimean war?
  12. +5
    17 June 2021 11: 42
    What if an Abrams / Leopard with a 120-mm cannon or, even worse, a self-propelled gun in a trench with a 155-mm cannon was disguised somewhere on the shore?


    What nonsense? Abrams does not fire even at 5 km, and self-propelled guns do not shoot at 20 km at a moving target. They would have a rangefinder of 7 meters and a calculator ... but no.
  13. -4
    17 June 2021 11: 56
    In many ways I agree with the author. But! I consider such a composition of the weapons of the frigate of project 22350 a consequence misconception of the ship... Describing the Japanese Akizuki-class destroyer, the author correctly mentioned that the Japanese call him names. escort ship! And how do our admirals position the frigate pr. 22350? -- How cruiser(only small - called "frigate") - superior in firepower to Soviet cruisers of the "Moskva" class! Those. a ship capable of waging its own war on its own! Naturally, here and 130mm AU by the way will be ... But it was necessary to immediately clearly determine that the frigate is universal escort ship! And proceed precisely from the escort tasks of this class of ships. (I.e. long cruising range, increased multichannel weapons for air targets, large ammunition of missiles and PLUR - KR is unnecessary for him, and anti-ship missiles - 4-8 pieces are enough for self-defense) ... - In this regard, the "corvette" is universal patrol ship... And he, too, without the need for CD ...
    PS: but the absence of controlled art, noted by the author. shells cal. 130mm should be corrected in the near future. I am observing the tendency of the domestic military-industrial complex - they took up the same to improve and expand the range of ammunition in all calibers. Looks like what this has finally been introduced ... IMHO 130mm controlled (and maybe anti-aircraft controlled!) Ammunition be.
    ZY2: in terms of support for the landing art. fire can make a couple of ships in the hull of the same frigates 22350 clean artillery and armored! Without anti-ship missiles and medium / long-range missiles, but with 152 or even 203 mm guns ... And large ammunition ...
    1. +3
      17 June 2021 12: 50
      A gunboat in hull 22380 with armor? Fantastic dear!
    2. +2
      17 June 2021 13: 02
      Quote: nespich
      And how do our admirals position the frigate pr. 22350? - Like a cruiser

      Who positions it that way? In my opinion, everyone has long realized that cruisers in the usual sense have died out as a class: a single ship today is a suicide bomber.

      Quote: nespich
      the frigate is a versatile escort ship!

      Truth? And what should he escort? It seemed to me that his main task was to strike at enemy NK and ground targets. In this regard, it is close to the American URO destroyers, only it does not hold out in displacement (but this is already the harsh reality of domestic shipbuilding).

      Quote: nespich
      you can make a couple of ships in the hull of the same frigates 22350 purely artillery and armored! Without anti-ship missiles and medium / long-range missiles, but with 152 or even 203 mm guns

      And we will get a couple of extremely highly specialized ships with a very immodest cost. At the same time, it is not even clear where exactly we might want to land.
      1. -2
        17 June 2021 13: 49
        Who positions it that way?

        --
        And what should he escort? It seemed to me that his main task was to strike at enemy NK and ground targets.

        laughing here you are clearly "confused in the testimony" ... just like Russian admirals ... one to one! Those. all the same (based on your and the admiral's vision) Project 22350 - a cruiser? laughing
        And we will get a couple of extremely highly specialized ships with a very immodest cost. At the same time, it is not even clear where exactly we might want to land.

        the cost is very modest - approximately equal to 1/3 - 1/2 of the cost of a full-fledged frigate of Project 22350 ...
        But where to land - but it doesn't matter where! Let the mere presence of such a ship in the squadron strains the enemy! - They will not get into "close combat" with such a clear ... + extra costs for countermeasures (powerful coastal defense, heavy anti-ship missiles - "light" anti-ship missiles - the most common in the fleets of the whole world - with a weight of 600-700 kg will not be effective against a ship armored with at least 50mm armor ...).
        PS: EMNIP in Soviet times behind the American sixth? the Mediterranean fleet dragged a Soviet squadron with a "staff" ship - an artillery cruiser of the "Kutuzov" type with 152mm guns. - Why? It seems that in the presence of such a "gunboat" near the American AUG "in which case," the AUG could not even have time to raise its aircraft from the decks of aircraft carriers ...
        1. +3
          17 June 2021 14: 46
          You are probably aware of the problems with the production of power plants for frigates of Project 22350?
          Each of your "armored frigates" is minus one full-fledged frigate, of which, to put it mildly, there are not many.
          I did not quite understand that you would like to protect with 50 mm armor, but I note that the RIF battleships that participated in Tsushima had significantly thicker armor in places, but this did not save them from a very rapid loss of combat effectiveness. At the same time, their main armor belts remained intact. So the "light" anti-ship missiles would be very dangerous for frigates with armor.
          Quote: nespich
          EMNIP in Soviet times behind the American sixth? the Mediterranean fleet dragged a Soviet squadron with a "staff" ship - an artillery cruiser of the "Kutuzov" type with 152mm guns. - Why?

          Don't you think that if this tactic were really effective, then the construction of such ships would not have stopped back in 1959?
          1. -3
            17 June 2021 16: 26
            I did not quite understand that you would like to protect with 50 mm armor, but I note that the RIF battleships that participated in Tsushima had significantly thicker armor in places, but this did not save them from a very rapid loss of combat effectiveness. At the same time, their main armor belts remained intact. So the "light" anti-ship missiles would be very dangerous for frigates with armor.

            и how the same hits were needed in the battleships, so that they would lose this very combat capability? - dozens! But for unarmored modern frigates, a couple of hits from mass light subsonic modern missiles are enough to drown them ...
            Don't you think that if this tactic were really effective, then the construction of such ships would not have stopped back in 1959?

            EMNIP in 1959 the main reason for the termination of construction art. ships were expensive to operate and ineffective as the main warship of the fleet. Just a couple of artillery ships (one for the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet) of three times smaller displacement are also offered. And I am not suggesting to consider them the main warships of the fleet ... Use exclusively as part of the KUG / AUG ...
        2. +1
          17 June 2021 15: 02
          Quote: nespich
          Those. all the same (based on your and the admiral's vision) Project 22350 - a cruiser?

          I am starting from the definition:
          A cruiser is a class of surface combat ships capable of performing missions independently of the main fleet ...

          22350 is unlikely to fight alone (well, except for all kinds of flag demonstrations and demonstrative dispersal of pirates), only as part of the KUG. From this point of view, it is closer to the destroyers, only it does not hold out in size.

          Quote: nespich
          Let the mere presence of such a ship in the squadron strains the enemy! - They will not get into "close combat" with such a definite ...

          Which enemy are you planning to challenge with an artillery ship? Well, perhaps Ukraine. All others keep their distance anyway; in melee will only go to finishing.

          Quote: nespich
          in Soviet times behind the American sixth? the Mediterranean fleet dragged a Soviet squadron with a "staff" ship - an artillery cruiser of the "Kutuzov" type with 152mm guns

          This approach has a right to life. Only on one condition: an artillery cruiser must be able to sit on the enemy's tail for a long time. The same 22350 for such tricks simply does not have enough speed. In general, this approach has long been outdated and no longer works.
          1. -3
            17 June 2021 16: 08
            22350 is unlikely to fight alone (well, except for all the demonstrations of the flag

            its armament is cruising - capable of performing любые tasks alone ...
            Which enemy are you planning to challenge with an artillery ship?

            Any opponent on the coast... Any unarmored enemy when expelling his ship from Russian territorial waters ...
            In general, this approach has long been outdated and no longer works.

            outdated - yes, it doesn't work - I doubt it. - No evidence of inoperability wink ...
            1. +2
              17 June 2021 16: 46
              Quote: nespich
              his armament is precisely cruising - capable of performing any tasks alone ...

              It is rather universal. Like modern destroyers, which, however, do not become cruisers from this. But he can fight alone only where there is no more or less strong enemy.

              Quote: nespich
              Any enemy on the coast ...

              ... which has no aircraft and no DBK.

              Quote: nespich
              outdated - yes, does not work - I doubt it.

              Let's just say that no one is suspiciously following this path. This approach lasted the longest with the Amers: they used their battleships up to the 90s. By the way, it really worked well against any Papuans. But in general and in general, it is inexpedient and fraught with sideways if the enemy has the aforementioned aviation, missile systems, etc.
        3. +2
          2 July 2021 01: 26
          Well, yes, well, yes, only 200 kg of TNT and a "body" of half a ton-ton weighing very few people will hold that 50mm, which is not 50mm, and a ship with at least partial reservation of 300 + mm (which can really hold) will be from 10000 ± tons. And you also need to book the deck - after all, the anti-ship missile can be brought from any side, even with a dive.
          How will you design this armored turtle, remember about torpedoes and concrete-piercing warheads with a penetration of a meter or two meters of concrete.
    3. 0
      17 June 2021 13: 44
      wassat oh, I can't, it's funny ... that is. we first create an escort ship and it needs one more ship to protect it ... 5 points
      1. -2
        17 June 2021 13: 55
        belay faq? - Can I have a detailed answer?
        1. 0
          17 June 2021 21: 27
          I'm talking about "why would an anti-ship missile ship" - without them, the ship will not be able to fight NK in general and effectively with submarines, therefore it will be necessary to make a separate ship for anti-ship missiles ... Opportunities for NK construction
          1. 0
            18 June 2021 11: 27
            you have not read carefully. It says "why would a patrol / escort ship need a KR (cruise missiles to destroy ground targets)" - not anti-ship missiles (anti-ship missiles). And here
            The fact that the Navy decided to shove UVP wherever possible is the correct approach in view of the small possibilities for the construction of the NK

            the statement is fundamentally wrong. If you shove UVP into corvettes (as we do here), then they will become the price of a destroyer! (which, apparently, is happening ...) At the same time, there will be no money for the construction of that very EM. And the built RTOs, due to their short cruising range, seaworthiness and autonomy, will never replace the very same EM (they will not fulfill its tasks). And if you also take into account the wretched air defense / missile defense of these RTOs, it turns out that this is just money down the drain! - It is cheaper and more efficient to do with coastal missile systems ...
            PS: and the construction of the NK is not a goal! This is simply a consequence of the adoption of one or another strategy of action for the armed forces ...
            1. 0
              18 June 2021 15: 57
              if we remove the UVP, then the construction speed will not change much, as well as the size of the series, so if we cannot make a lot of ships, then it makes sense to make weighty ships, and this goes in the form of 20385 ... Five ..
              1. +1
                2 July 2021 01: 28
                The price will change significantly, and the speed of construction and acceptance into the fleet will increase.
                1. +1
                  2 July 2021 10: 10
                  1) the financial issue is not important, since our shipyards are loaded,
                  2) What is the point in a squadron, if it cannot attack? Or will we, like in the USSR, do dances with tambourines around cruisers?
            2. 0
              18 June 2021 15: 59
              by the way, about MRK, coastal complexes and strategies ... to get the most efficient ships, and there is a strategy ... it is better to have 10 ships with UVP than the same 10 ships, but in which only a couple have UVP ... other countries who can UVP are now agreeing to the idea that it is precisely the UVP that you need to have, And to put light anti-aircraft missiles only on small ships.
              1. +1
                2 July 2021 01: 29
                All who can afford to build destroyers. 10 destroyers are better than 100 mrk.
                But we live in a country that only mine can stamp, and then with varying degrees of success
                1. 0
                  2 July 2021 10: 10
                  laughing and how many destroyers can we lay down now?
                2. -1
                  2 July 2021 10: 11
                  and what does "mine" have to do with it .. you don’t get hysterical, but write clearly ..
                  1. 0
                    9 July 2021 13: 56
                    Mrk. T9 is naughty, litter.
                    We can build destroyers, and they can be “laid down” at at least 4 shipyards. Ie 8+ buildings. In more detail you need to look at what they are doing right now (for example, they seem to be building two large landing ships in Sevastopol), but this is real.
                    1. 0
                      9 July 2021 14: 05
                      it is possible, but then it will be necessary to curtail the construction programs of other ships: UDC, icebreakers and submarines .. So-so an option .. Now the following is known that the shipyards promise to reach the rate of 3-1 frigates a year in 2 years .. This is quite real .. RTOs, on the other hand, are building mainly shipyards that are not adapted for the construction of frigates, since such a hodgepodge, then it is more realistic to launch production of either MPK with UVP or Klimovsk OVR corvettes, but not on the basis of Karakurt, but on the basis of the Vietnamese version of Cheetah.
                      1. 0
                        10 July 2021 01: 12
                        First, no. Push out tankers and bulk carriers, container ships on a star, brought in for completion from Korea and China, once. Two - to load what builds 20380 and 22350. Three - the construction of RTOs does not interfere with this, and even more so - the cheap corvette OVR. We actually have enough shipyards, we don't have enough intelligence.
                        Even if it is stupid to form hulls in different places and then bring them to St. Petersburg and Sevmash for the installation of a nuclear reactor and machines, then the process will be very, very smart
                      2. +1
                        11 July 2021 10: 07
                        and you asked Rosneft, which pays up to 2,4 trillion rubles in taxes, and asked if it needed to destroy an expensive shipyard purely for military orders? You can find out where our shipyards are idle, where you can build frigates and corvettes ... name
    4. +2
      17 June 2021 21: 11
      it's a versatile escort ship!
      While there is almost no one to escort, so we have to consider this ship a small cruiser. When and if they set up aircraft carriers, UDCs and cruisers with destroyers, then the frigate will become an escort ship.
      1. 0
        18 June 2021 11: 29
        I agree. But the question remains why built these same micro-cruisers? - purely remember the Second World War? Not expensive?
        1. +1
          2 July 2021 01: 30
          These are the only ships of "conditionally first rank" in our Navy.
          And yes, they built a station wagon, and it turned out not bad, and nothing else has yet been built.
  14. 0
    17 June 2021 13: 09
    Quote: ares1988
    Response special warhead for Kaliningrad

    This is unlikely: Kaliningrad is in the center of Europe, Poland, Lithuania, Germany will be poisoned with radiation ...
    1. +3
      17 June 2021 18: 17
      And I don’t feel sorry for them. From the point of view of the applicants. They are being substituted by all means in peacetime.
  15. 0
    17 June 2021 13: 22
    the article is not about anything, do not waste time on another "genius"
  16. +4
    17 June 2021 14: 03
    what A strange tendency has developed at VO, if someone reads an advertising booklet about the cruiser Aurora, a person immediately thinks that he can talk about the fleet !!! wassat
    The main justification for the existence of the fleet as a branch of the armed forces is the provision of strategic nuclear deterrence of a potential adversary.

    Those. except for this, the fleet is not needed?
    all three projects of Russian RTOs are inferior in speed to the Soviet "Gadfly"

    Iii? What is the speed advantage of the "Gadfly"?
    with the weight of the rocket ammunition on board in 35 tons, they are significantly inferior to the loading of "Onyx" in the UVP 3S14 with a weight of 24 tons.

    Those. Mr. Kononov, are you saying that a subsonic anti-ship missile with a range of 150 km is much more promising than a supersonic anti-ship missile with a range of 600 km? And at the same time 6 Malachites are much better than 8 Onyxes !!! Andrey, how can you substantiate your statements?
    And only the last Karakurt hulls with Pantsir-M, 76-mm AU and Igla MANPADS on board can compete in the effectiveness of air defense with the Gadgets, which have on board the outdated Osa MA air defense systems, 76-mm AU , 30-mm AK-630M and Strela-3 MANPADS

    Oh yeah! 100 mm is again worse than 76 mm, the Duet again loses to the AK-630, the Wasp air defense system ... Andrey, have you at least watched the shooting of this Wasp? In YouTube, it seems like there is a video with a diving rocket, look at your leisure!
    What do we have there next ...
    NATO, the Americans and the Pacific pro-Western satellites bypass destroyer-cruiser ships with only 127-mm guns. The overwhelming majority of Japanese destroyer frigates (according to the classification of the Land of the Rising Sun, these representatives belong to escort ships) are armed with artillery of this caliber

    Those. Does 3 millimeters of a Russian cannon put this gun mount in a deliberately losing position in comparison with NATO ships? Well, you must !!!
    the destroyer "Akizuki" is not the largest ship in terms of displacement, but still significantly surpasses our frigate.

    What is his strength, brother? How is this superiority expressed?
    Well, a masterpiece of naval thought !!!!
    What can our frigate gouge on the enemy coast of the countries shown in the table with its 130-mm cannon?

    And the thinker does not come to mind the thought of supporting the coastal flanks of the land army, supporting the amphibious landing with artillery fire ... and not only on the enemy coast, but also our own, temporarily occupied? Or is there no room for a landing in a future war?
    laughing And then Ostap suffered !!!!
    The dream of sailors, who have watched films about pirates of the Caribbean, to come to the shore opposite the islanders' village in loincloths, anchor on two anchors and flatten the reed huts with a side salvo, is broken forever. Roughly speaking, the modern naval commanders are not in the size of the laurels of the canonized Admiral Ushakov, who stormed the bastions with ships.

    Well, yes, all Russian admirals are complete dullards and even hold a candle to the hereditary Nelson under the pseudonym Andrey Kononov !!! laughing wassat
    Excuse me, but for more than me in reading this doctrine was not enough ...
    To be continued ...

    recourse Better not.....
    1. 0
      17 June 2021 14: 54
      Yes, I was also somewhat surprised when a man on serious cabbage soup compared frigates in terms of gun mounts, which for them is about the same as the pilots' personal weapons in air combat.
      There will also be some kind of continuation. Apparently, about the fate of those 18 tons that can be released, which is as much as 0.4% of the ship's VI.
      1. +1
        9 July 2021 13: 59
        If I understood correctly, the author suggests that pilots use their personal weapons and not waste the weight and dimensions into which a couple of missiles can be crammed.
  17. +1
    17 June 2021 14: 14
    I am a complete amateur in matters of the fleet, but the meaning of the article is incomprehensible. A single gun is not capable of performing air defense functions, wow! It seems that this is clear to everyone for 100 years already. Therefore, this very air defense on the frigate is represented by two 30-mm ZAK and short-range missiles, of which 32 units can be installed in each of the 4 cells. And guns since the appearance of anti-ship missiles on ships are put "for every fireman" in the amount of 1-2 pieces, and otherwise how to cover the landing they were not used since ... World War II? How a cannon can make a ship "superfluous" and what difference does it make at all how much shells weigh there is a mystery.
  18. 0
    17 June 2021 14: 34
    If we hit the plane with a mortar, this does not mean that the mortar is a good air defense system. It's the same here. Artillery should be used only against surface targets, and not as an air defense weapon with dubious results. Such exercissa of admirals are criminal and subject to consideration in the tribunal under the article Wrecking.
  19. 0
    17 June 2021 17: 01
    Quote: nespich
    and how many hits did it take to the battleships to lose this very combat capability? - dozens! But for unarmored modern frigates, a couple of hits from mass light subsonic modern missiles are enough to drown them ...

    I'm talking about the fact that the defeat of unarmored parts and fires will disable an unarmored frigate almost as quickly as an unarmored one.
    Comparing 6 dm of armor "Borodino" and your proposed 50 mm - it's not even funny.
    In addition, the position of the battleships in an advantageous direction was distinguished by the fact that they could respond with their own fire to enemy fire. And how can your artillery frigate respond to its missile counterpart?
    1. 0
      18 June 2021 11: 38
      Comparing 6 dm of armor "Borodino" and your proposed 50 mm - it's not even funny.
      In addition, the position of the battleships in an advantageous direction was distinguished by the fact that they could respond with their own fire to enemy fire. And how can your artillery frigate respond to its missile counterpart?

      In response, I can recommend that you compare the action of a hard and hard armor-piercing projectile and a "soft" anti-ship missile on bureaucratic barriers ... By the way, modern naval artillery no longer considers fire at 100 km as inaccessible .. Oh, 50, that's for sure! Or do you need a ship that can certainly "respond" to an enemy ship standing in its base from its own quay wall on the other side of the ocean? :))
      1. 0
        18 June 2021 12: 48
        Quote: nespich
        in response, I can recommend that you compare the action of a hard and hard armor-piercing projectile and a "soft" anti-ship missile ...

        The Japanese in Tsushima practically did not shoot with armor-piercing, they mainly used land mines. Which, without penetrating the thick belt armor and the protection of the main caliber turrets, nevertheless led to such damage and fires on our EBRs that it turned out to be impossible to cope with them.
        In addition, according to various sources, the Japanese shells contained from 40 to 55 kg of explosives, and the modern "soft" "Harpoon" - 180 kg. Therefore, for him, 50 mm protection is just about nothing.
        Also note that, for example, the antenna canvases of a ship cannot be booked in principle. And without them he is deaf-blind and completely incapable of fighting.
        Quote: nespich
        Already at 50, that's for sure!

        I think that at such distances it is possible to shoot only at stationary targets. It is unlikely to get into an actively moving ship from such a distance.
        In addition, it is still not clear how to fight an artillery ship that shoots even 50 km, against a rocket ship that shoots 100+. We naturally neglect the problems of target designation for both.
        hi
        1. -1
          18 June 2021 13: 46
          besides, it is still not clear how to fight an artillery ship that shoots even 50 km, against a rocket ship that shoots 100+.

          to fight only as part of the KUG / DUG / AUG .... I did not offer to make an armored art. the ship is the main surface ship of the fleet. He offered to build a couple for specific tasks ...
  20. -1
    17 June 2021 17: 55
    Well, I will continue to develop the author's theory ... what if instead of a 100mm gun, put 57mm high ballistics? Then the ammunition capacity will increase several times, the rate of fire several times. And with remote detonation, it will be possible to click the anti-ship missile system like seeds. And there will still be a place for, say, a chilled "city". And we will burn abrams, destroyers and wooden huts with napalm wassat In general, they do not seek from goodness! And leave this project alone! In our time of troubles, he is just a ray of light. Its only minus is 1 - there are very few such ships!
    1. 0
      9 July 2021 14: 01
      He would be re-equipped, and in general there would be no price for this miracle suffered
  21. 517
    +2
    17 June 2021 18: 47
    Another a mindless stream of letters from a completely incompetent author.
    The facts:
    1. AK-192 should have received (and everything goes to what it will receive) several effective UAS.
    With a corresponding increase in its efficiency by almost an order of magnitude.
    2. Even in its current form (and serial ammunition), it is more than effective against such air weapons as anti-ship missiles (the second CT of the Pacific Fleet shot down RM 6 km from the AK-190, - the AK-192 is more powerful and more accurate).
    3.Taking into account the factor of such simple but massive air defense missiles as SDB and the high cost and value of 9M96D missiles for air defense connections, the possibility of destroying such simple air defense systems with artillery (without the expense of expensive missiles), and at a safe distance is very high. AK-192 provides this.
    4. AK-192 provides an effective anti-missile defense system.
    5. Taking into account the firing system, the effectiveness of the AK-192 against ground targets is very high (even from the much weaker, but new and accurate AK-190, the customer was just delighted, and there was something).

    Actually, all this is known and so, but apparently the author, in a fit of graphomania, was "not interested" in dealing with the topic

    PS

    Actually after the letters of the author of this creative wassat about the "defeat" of surface ships (on the move) fool UAS with GPS everything is clear with him wassat
    1. 0
      9 July 2021 14: 02
      Are the Ak-192 still clinics after the first 4 shots, or have you solved the problem of overheating and shells?
  22. 0
    17 June 2021 18: 52
    The author is apparently a fan of artillery and decided to provide the ship's air defense with one gun mount. On the frigate of project 22350, the ship's air defense is provided by the Poliment-Redut air defense system and two broadswords A-192M Artustanovka is only an additional weapon in the air defense. It is designed to destroy missiles missed in the flock after work ,, Reduta ,, And it is not at all necessary to shoot a missile at a distance of 15 km. It is more likely to be hit with a gun in the 5-7 km belt. Its rate of fire is certainly low and only 30 rpm, versus 80 rpm for the A-190. But changing the gun mount is still not worth it. She has other tasks as well. Smart people are working on an active rocket projectile and an anti-aircraft projectile. Opening oncoming barrage of fire, anti-aircraft shells are detonated at a distance of 5-7 km and create a festive fireworks - a cloud of debris through which neither a conventional anti-ship missile, nor supersonic, nor hypersonic can break through. Unfortunately, with an increase in the caliber of the gun, its rate of fire drops sharply. The point is to replace the A-192 with the A-190 ((130 mm by 100 mm) and if the gun mount is lightened by 18 tons, then with a twin one. But this has not yet been invented.
    1. 517
      +2
      17 June 2021 18: 56
      Quote: Vladshat
      And it is not at all necessary to shoot a rocket at a distance of 15 km. It is more likely to be hit with a gun in the 5-7 km belt. Its rate of fire is certainly low and only 30 rpm, versus 80 rpm for the A-190.

      A-192 is still the "ugly duckling"
      Moreover, already now its characteristics are very, very worthy
      We are waiting for UAS bully
      1. 0
        20 June 2021 16: 18
        I suggest not to tell or prove to "pseudo-eksperts" and "all-propals" what is incomprehensible to them. You read the articles of these comrades here and do not understand by what obukrka the information is taken? I don't want to go to the military review anymore.
        Best regards, representative of PJSC SZ "Severnaya Verf"
  23. +1
    17 June 2021 20: 29
    Quote: bayard
    ... Power.
    When every projectile that hits the target causes serious damage ... And to inflict serious enough destruction, you need a sufficient power of the projectile. And believe me, the power is 130 mm. the projectile is not even twice the power of 100 mm. , but no matter how 4 times

    The only comment so far that mentions the power of the projectile as a main characteristic, growing exponentially with increasing caliber. And then "Mass of a volley per minute", etc. for some commentators, it can lead to the installation of a thousand-barreled 30-mm cannon laughing
  24. +2
    17 June 2021 21: 41
    It is harmful to underestimate the caliber of naval artillery. If there is not enough rate of fire, then it is necessary to upgrade the 130-mm turret, and not change the already modest universal 5 "by 4".
    Removing artillery from a frigate is like taking machine guns from tankers (and what, they have a cannon, let them shoot from it), the tasks of anti-ship missiles and artillery overlap, but not enough.
    1. 0
      10 August 2021 09: 34
      An unfortunate example with tankers. They have pistols. By handing them submachine guns, you force them to make an unpleasant choice between quickly leaving the car or taking care of removing their personal dimensional weapons in the first place. In addition, the repair of a combat vehicle with an assault rifle on a belt or with a pistol in your pocket is also two big differences.
  25. 0
    17 June 2021 21: 54
    What a nonsense. AU is needed for secondary purposes, and the RCC has limitations. And fairy tales about
    in the form of the presence in the ammunition of the ERGM active-rocket projectile with a cluster warhead, flying to a distance of up to 140 kilometers, and targeting is carried out by an inertial system using GPS navigation, which ensures firing accuracy up to 10 meters.
    generally cause laughter.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 517
          -2
          19 June 2021 19: 34
          Quote: Usher
          Dreamer! you called me! :) What duels? RCC for what? Composing some kind of game!

          Yes, the author's hike stoned lol
          What she herself wrote (about GPS) - "does not remember", about the calculation of the lead-in point - she does not know, and so on. wassat
      2. The comment was deleted.
  26. 0
    17 June 2021 22: 31
    ".... to fight anti-ship missiles and anti-aircraft missiles, which are abundant on board"
    You are joking?! 8 anti-ship missiles, perhaps, will penetrate the enemy's air defense. One. May be. But compare the number of possible opponents at all four theaters, even without taking into account the United States with its 100 ships with 100 launchers on each (not all launchers are for anti-ship missiles, but half will be enough). Against our 2 frigates and 3 under-frigates.
    I'm not even talking about the author's masterpiece "knowledge" in radar. The chord of the PAR diagram corresponds to the size of the target ... Hmm, sir.
  27. 517
    0
    17 June 2021 23: 07
    The funny thing is that the author himself wassat reading comments and placing minuses crying , did not find anything to argue about "dragging him with a pug" on his "imperishable" lol in the comments lol
  28. 0
    17 June 2021 23: 19
    It is interesting how the ideologues of modern combat see combat as a single clash until the missiles are exhausted, and then everyone disperses to the bases, or they fight with what remains, including artillery. And here whoever has a larger caliber is right.
  29. -1
    18 June 2021 08: 15
    Quote: ares1988
    A response special warfare unit for Kaliningrad, for example, will have a no less sobering effect.

    our air defense is the best in the world, we will kill the enemy with little blood on its territory.
  30. 0
    18 June 2021 14: 16
    What if an Abrams / Leopard with a 120-mm cannon or, even worse, a self-propelled gun in a trench with a 155-mm cannon was disguised somewhere on the shore?


    And they will not be able to do anything to the ship from the word at all. If the captain is even a little competent, and will not bring the ship closer than 3-4 miles to the shore. The ship is an extremely difficult target for artillery. Only aviation is more complicated. The ship moves at a speed of 10-15m / s in foreshortening, at a distance 3-4 times greater than the distance of a tank battle, where laser rangefinders do not work, maneuvers and puts smoke screens and interference. Without a special fire control radar, a special fire control system and a rate of fire of at least 20-30 rounds per minute, there is nothing to catch artillery against the ship. And the tankers ... It's not even funny. They, regardless of the army, have the task of shooting from closed positions to correct something from the realm of fantasy (in fact, they do not need it), but here the task is an order of magnitude more difficult.
    1. 0
      4 August 2021 05: 30
      At its firing range, the tank will hit the ship with a guarantee. Look at the speed of the projectile - let it be HE - and how long the ship will pass during this time. Not at all. And tanks have the most flat trajectory of the projectile right now. I see - I get there.
      1. 0
        4 August 2021 08: 22
        Nothing like this. At a distance of 4 nautical milms, even an M830 projectile (sub-caliber HE) will fly for about 8 seconds. During this time, the ship will shift approximately by the length of the hull, but most importantly, the vertical correction will be about 7 meters for every 100 meters of distance. This means that if the error in determining the distance is more than 100m, you will not get anywhere. Despite the fact that even the captains of the submarine Kriegsmarine during the war determined "by eye" the distance to the target with an accuracy of 10-15%, and they have much more experience in this matter than the tanker. In general, for shooting at sea, without modern locators and LMS, even with optical rangefinders and firing tables, the probability of hitting a ship in 2-3% is considered an excellent indicator, and this despite the fact that the flatness of the trajectory of naval artillery is only slightly worse than a tank with a sub-caliber HE and much better than a tank with a caliber HE, with much less dispersion at long distances, due to better external ballistics.
        1. 0
          4 August 2021 11: 50
          The tank does not fire for 4 miles. No need. And you will get 2-3 km.
        2. 0
          5 December 2021 21: 43
          The fire control of the A-192 installation is carried out using the Puma control system - 5P10 for Russia or 5P10E for foreign customers. The system, developed by the Amethyst design bureau, includes a radar, a television viewfinder and a gyro-stabilized platform GOES-140, on which an optoelectronic module is installed. "Puma" allows you to detect targets at a distance of up to 60 km. Together with the detection, the computer of the system can simultaneously track four targets and provide data for aiming a weapon at two of them. The reaction time of the weapon control system to an air target is five seconds, to a surface or ground target - 10-15 seconds. In a difficult environment, when you have to "work" on a large number of targets, it takes about one second to switch to the next target from the general stream. Is it by eye or what ?!
          1. 0
            5 December 2021 22: 31
            I wrote about shooting "by eye" in relation to self-propelled guns and tanks, which, by definition, were not equipped with ship radars and control systems, and unable to hit, unless by accident, a maneuvering frigate at a distance of 5-6 miles. And I have no doubt that the A-192 can be aimed at ground targets at such a distance. Which is far from the limit for him.
  31. +1
    18 June 2021 18: 04
    It is enough to rework the Sokol-V 130-mm tank guided weapon system for a 125 mm naval caliber. Its range is not published, but the engine is available. And you need to increase the range to 80 km.
    1. 517
      -1
      19 June 2021 19: 31
      Quote: Tektor
      Enough

      Everything was conducted there
      Serious and successful. On Rzhevka, a bunch of 130mm (and not only) UAS and ARS managed to shoot
  32. 0
    26 June 2021 14: 03
    How can we explain the existence of this superstition?

    Lack of confidence in the power and the declared probability of hitting the enemy with a specific anti-ship missile system? The desire to insure the ship, which fired a salvo of anti-ship missiles into the world as a pretty penny? The notorious economy, according to the logic of which it is not rational to spend anti-ship missiles for every purpose, can you do with an art or a torpedo? Just unwillingness to abandon the traditional method of naval combat and the ability to have a choice of means to achieve the goal?

    I would venture to suggest the validity of the totality of all the arguments given, but the main one of all remains - the unknown or the very case of His Majesty.


    The weapon is needed to be able to defeat the enemy at too small distances. If we say the enemy, as recently brazenly rushing towards the Crimea, already on our territory, there was a mess, the enemy opened fire and we need to answer ... then if you only have an anti-ship missile on board, there will be nothing to answer
  33. 0
    21 August 2021 18: 24
    The incompetence of the author's reasoning is the whole point of this article. Unfortunately, such articles began to appear in VO. the author could remember what tasks this frigate can solve, but not a word about it. Criticism can and should be perceived, but objective and to the point, and not a child's nose-picking like "what to take with you."
  34. The comment was deleted.
  35. 0
    7 November 2021 15: 18
    This project has one significant circumstance, which the author does not seem to pay serious attention to. This is a rank 1 frigate. By itself, for some sailors, this phrase may sound strange, if not wild. Let me remind you that 1 rank means the ability of a ship to carry out combat missions alone anywhere in the world's oceans. Which is a rarity not only for a frigate, but even for a destroyer. This means that the IMF quite clearly understands what kind of gap exists among the existing ships, their weapons, or how it intends to use this frigate in practice. In general, only this factor really explains why the 130-mm gun and not another. Indeed, in the case of the classic use of a frigate, that is, as part of a combat group, by and large it does not really matter what the gun will be - 130 mm or less, in view of the arsenal of the entire group. But in singles it has. In general, I agree with the arguments of the bayard user - the caliber for the world's oceans, that is, for meeting the hypothetically largest goals, matters. I suppose that in a hypothetical conflict, when a frigate alone will be forced to carry out tasks in pursuit of civilian ships, transports, convoys - the effectiveness of one hit is more important than their number, since it can go on for minutes until the target disappears under the cover of the coast or needs to be quickly destroyed several ships before the approach of their allied fleet. If we allow hits of a smaller caliber, yes, they will lead to the loss of personnel at the target, yes, there will be fires on board, but if a direct hit in the engine room is not able to deprive the target of the move, and it leaves the battle, then the whole battle has no values.
    Rank 1 also has other circumstances related to the equipment and equipment of the ship. For example, the possible presence of a group of special forces or marines, hypothetically requiring artillery cover.
    1. 0
      22 January 2022 22: 28
      I doubt that these ships (which are not M) are capable of using weapons anywhere in the oceans in any weather. Miracles do not happen, the displacement is not enough. But, in fact, when the last 1164 and even 1144 are written off, it is these "frigates" that will have to perform their tasks. Plus art. support. Corvettes are even worse. They will have to "work" not only for 1135 and 1154, but also for 1155 and partly 956. There will be no others left. And instead of TFR-IPC in general 0.
  36. 0
    5 December 2021 21: 33
    It was necessary for the designers and the customer to consult with the author of this, Andrey Kononov.
  37. 0
    22 January 2022 22: 16
    The author should remember the history of the appearance of project 956 and artillery installations AK-130, A-192. I don’t think that Gorshkov and the 1st Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense were dumber than you and me. Artillery support is not being replaced by aviation at all, there will be only two Ka52K carriers in noticeable quantities for now. Helicopters are also very vulnerable to air defense systems. As for the hypothetical confrontation between tanks and self-propelled guns and ships, here the author, in my opinion, clearly went too far. Because of the limited elevation angle, tanks cannot shoot further than 10-11 km., Their SLAs do not provide firing at moving targets further than 5 km. Most of them are armed with smooth-bore guns, which at long distances are inferior in accuracy of fire to rifled ones. As for the ground army artillery, now, oddly enough, it also cannot solve the tasks of coastal artillery due to the lack of fire control systems necessary for this. The WWII coastal battery with a Geisler and an optical rangefinder is more suitable for this. But for her, shooting at 70-80 kb. on a moving sea target was not an easy task. And there is no need for ships with 130-mm domestic artillery to approach the coast at the initial stage of amphibious assault landing - we have been dealing with issues of firing on the move at an observed or unobserved coastal target for a long time and tightly, and all this is incorporated into the ship's OMS. Guided / homing projectiles here, too, may not help the ground crews, because the ship's electronic warfare systems can "fool" and much more "smart" seekers than you can put in a 155-mm caliber. Yes, and a couple of missiles for such a "golden bullet" can already be spent. I would agree with the author that 5 "is still too much for a frigate. But let's be honest - for us, pr. fit.