Piper vs. Nagant. When the worst is preferred over the best

233

As it happens, the always popular "revolver" was not copied only by the lazy. Here is Francisco Arismendi's Spanish revolver "revolver". Caliber 7.62, barrel 107 mm, total length 225 mm. Right view

With you through the waters of conflagration
And the copper pipes went through,
Your most reliable friend -
Take good care of him!
Black rubber pads
Fasten with a Phillips screw,
Feed him machine oil
And with the finest lead.
Lead ringed with rim
(Do not forget to wipe it!) -
Copper alloy cylinders,
At the bottom - explosive mercury.
Adam Lindsay Gordon

Weapon and firms. Last time we talked about the career of the Nagan brothers and the participation of Leon Nagan's revolver in the revolver competition for the Russian imperial army. However, it would be completely wrong to stop at this and not tell about another revolver, which was the opponent of the "revolver" in this competition. We are talking about a revolver designed by Henri Pieper, which in all respects was no worse, and in some even better than the Nagant revolver, and nevertheless never made it to Russia. There are such in stories incidents when the worst is preferred to the best for a number of reasons. It also happened that a patent obtained by one designer was successfully used by another, while the author himself remained in the shadows.


The same revolver. Left view

So with regard to Henri Piper, it should be noted that it was he who came up with the idea of ​​pushing the revolver drum onto the barrel in order to prevent the breakthrough of gases, and that the first patent for the design of such a revolver was issued to Henri Piper in 1886. However, the patent was short and expired as early as 1890.




The same revolver. Inscription on the barrel: 7.62 Nagants cartridges

True, Henri Pieper in the same 1890 patented the design of an improved revolver with gas obturation, in which the drum was fed forward by an original part connected to the trigger. This achieved the elimination of the gap between the barrel and the chamber, and the designer provided for the blocking of the drum with a special stop, which was attached to the upper part of the frame by means of a hinge.


Advertising "nagant" in Russia

As a result, Pieper got a seven-shot, one-piece frame, 8 mm revolver. He also invented a cartridge for him, in which the bullet was entirely drowned in the muzzle of the cartridge case. A trigger-operated ejector was also provided, which ejected the spent cartridge case with a curved lever at the very moment when it descended and hit the primer. Moreover, this mechanism could be turned off.


Belgian revolver scheme "revolver"

And in 1897, Pieper designed a revolver produced by the Osterreichische Waffenfabrik-Gesellschaft in Steyr, already with a folding drum.


The scheme of the revolver by Henri Pieper

His most famous revolver was the 1886 model. A very technologically advanced design, with only one double spring, chambered for 7,5 mm cartridges with smokeless powder. To remake this caliber for the domestic 7,62 mm would cost nothing at all. Well, in all other respects this revolver was in no way inferior to the "revolver". Moreover, it was his drum approaching the barrel that Leon Nagant used in 1892 on his new model of the revolver.

Piper vs. Nagant. When the worst is preferred over the best
Piper's revolver, model 1886, "Bayard"

As for the requirements for a new revolver of the Russian army, they were formulated by the Commission for the development of a small-caliber rifle, headed by Lieutenant General N.G. Chagin.

First of all, it was required to provide a large stopping effect of the bullet. From a distance of up to 50 steps, she had to stop the horse. This was an “iron” requirement for all our revolvers. "The strength of the battle" (there was such a concept at that time) was supposed to ensure the penetration of four to five inch boards from pine.

In this case, the weight should have been in the range of 0,82-0,92 kg.
Self-cocking was prohibited because it "has a detrimental effect on accuracy."
Bullet muzzle velocity not less than 300 m / s.

The accuracy of fire had to be high, and the design of the revolver had to be technologically advanced (the requirement of mass production) and simple (the requirement for training soldiers).

Well, it is clear that it must be insensitive to pollution: to dirt, poor operating conditions, and had to work even in the most difficult conditions.

An important requirement was the alternate extraction of the liners.
Aimed shooting - 35 steps. Drum for at least seven rounds.
The gunpowder in the cartridge is, of course, smokeless. The bullet is in a copper sheath.

Self-cocking was ruled out because it "complicates the design and raises prices" (oh, this is our economy on matches). And besides, it leads to "excess consumption of ammunition" and, again - to losses for the treasury.


Piper M1889 revolver. Right view

As a result, the competition turned out to be, in fact, fictitious, since there were only two contestant revolvers: Henri Piper and Leon Nagant, and both were very similar. But ... the conditions were clearly favorable to Nagant.

It got to the point that Henri Pieper explicitly stated that there was no equality for the participants.

That is, two revolvers competed: the M1889 "Bayard" by Piper and the "revolver" by Leon Nagant M1892, which, by the way, was also self-cocking from the very beginning. But he ruled out the possibility of self-cocking firing, deteriorating the characteristics of the revolver in accordance with the requirements of the organizers of the competition. Moreover, there were two options - 6- and 7-charging models. Piper's revolver, as not meeting the requirements of the competition, was immediately rejected, and the victory thus easily went to Nagant.


He's on the left

And then the most important conversation went. No, not about improving the characteristics of the new revolver, but only about money. Leon Nagan demanded 75 rubles for his patent for it. The amount seemed excessive, and then a repeated competition was appointed, under new specified conditions, in order to make it more agreeable: you, they say, are not the only one.


View of the details of the mechanism

In the new competition, a bonus was also introduced: 20 rubles for the revolver itself and 000 for the cartridge for it.

But now the winner could no longer demand money from the government. It

"Gave his invention to the full ownership of the Russian government, which received the right to manufacture it, both at home and abroad, without any additional payment to the inventor."

Thus, the savings in general came out very significant.

Pieper submitted redesigned revolvers to this competition, which the commission considered "witty, but not practical." Captain S. I. Mosin presented his "six-barreled revolver" (that is, nothing more than a pepperbox!), Which, of course, the commission rejected.

However, when the revolver passed military tests, the officers who participated in them began to say that it would be nice to get a revolver with a double action, that is, with the possibility of self-cocking.

The Commission revisited the original Nagant model. And after much deliberation, I made a palliative decision. The army adopted two types of revolvers: self-cocking - for officers, while non-self-cocking model was supposed to be armed with non-commissioned officers and privates.


The emblem of the Bayard revolvers

On May 13, 1895 (May 25 according to the Gregorian calendar), by decree of Nicholas II, the "soldier" and "officer" revolvers of Nagant were adopted by the Russian Imperial Army. But according to the military department, they were adopted only after the order of the Minister of War No. 186 in June 1896. And their production began even later.


Mexican model of the Piper M1893 revolver

However, Nagan began to produce his revolvers, almost immediately. The price of a Belgian-made revolver for the Russian army was 30–32 rubles.

It was envisaged to receive from Nagant in three years 20 revolvers of the 000 model of the year. The Belgians were also supposed to help in organizing their fabrication at the Imperial Tula Arms Factory. When, finally, this plant began to produce them, the Tula revolvers began to cost the treasury 1895 rubles 22 kopecks. At the same time, the order of the army from 60 to 1899 amounted to 1904 revolvers.

However, one cannot say that domestic revolvers were cheaper than foreign ones, since in Russia many expenses for the production of weapons were passed through different departments. So, for example, for the development of their production, machines worth more than one million rubles were purchased in the United States at public expense. However, if the Tula plant itself paid this entire amount for them, the price of these revolvers would immediately increase several times.


And this is how his drum was thrown out ...

As for the biography and design activities of Henri Piper, she is quite curious, so you should get to know her.

He was born in Zoest (Westphalia) on October 30, 1840. He studied engineering at Zust and then continued his apprenticeship at Warstein. He arrived in Liege at the end of 1859, and then lived successively in Herstal, Liege, and Verviers (1866). Soon after his marriage, he moved to Liege, settled at 12 Bayard Street, where he opened a mechanical and weapons workshop.


Anri Piper rifle with a "rolling block" bolt

In 1870, he expanded his workshops on Bayard Street, which now cover 6000 square meters; created a factory for the production of rifle barrels in Nessonvo in the Vesdre Valley. He actively produced and supplied double-barreled hunting rifles for export.


Henri Piper rifle 1888/1889 with Chulhof drum shop


Receiver


Shutter

In 1887, an important event happened in the life of Henri Piper: he joined the united association of arms manufacturers, which united the factories of Jules Ancion, Dumoulin Freres, Joseph Janssen, Pirlo-Fresard, Dress-Laloux and Si, Albert Simonis and ... brothers Emile and Leon Nagan ...

The following year, Henri Pieper offered the Belgian army several straight-action bolt-action rifles and a Chulhof magazine or a Mannlicher-type magazine. They were tested, but in the end the German Mauser M1889 was adopted.


Julian Warnan's bolt scheme used in Pieper's 1885 shotgun


An advertisement for a Varnan carbine produced by the Piper enterprise


A very original shutter and extractor, isn't it?

Then Henri Pieper participated in the creation of the famous Fabrique Nationale, which began to produce these weapons; became its managing director and also one of the most important shareholders. His revolver (model 1893) was adopted in Mexico along with a drum gun of his own design with a folding drum.


Piper's Mexican drum carbine. Caliber 8 mm, drum for nine rounds 7.62x38 mm with rim

Around 1897, Pieper's workshops also began making bicycles and cars.


Piper's pocket five-shot hammerless revolver, M1893. Ivory grips. Beauty!


It is disassembled

He died a year later - on August 23, 1898, at the age of only 57 years.

His legacy as a designer was quite large: firstly, revolvers with drums sliding over the barrel of the models of 1886, 1890 and 1893; secondly, hunting rifles of all types (with one and several barrels, mixed, "express", hammer and hammerless; third, single-shot rifles with a crane bolt, as well as an "electric rifle" with electric ignition; rifle "Optimus"; rifle Martini systems; army rifles of the 1887 and 1888 models; rifle barrel of the 1893 model, etc.

In total, from 1861 to 1896, he received 69 patents for various models and parts of weapons. Well, Piper's 8-mm revolver became a kind of "weapon of the Mexican revolution" of 1910-1920. Just like the revolver has become a symbolic weapon in our army.

PS


The author and the site administration would like to express their gratitude to Alain Daubresse for the opportunity to use his photographs.
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

233 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +13
    19 2021 June
    And what prevented the commission from self-cocking and a folding drum for quick reloading? There would be Pipers in the Russian army, not revolvers ... laughing Ammunition savings? In battle, fast reloading is much more important.
    1. +17
      19 2021 June
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      And what prevented the commission from self-cocking and a folding drum for quick reloading? There would be Pipers in the Russian army, not revolvers ... laughing Ammunition savings? In battle, fast reloading is much more important.

      Piper is practically a swear word !!! Horses fainted, young ladies were embarrassed and blushed, and Lieutenant Rzhevsky blushed at his mention like a young lady and whinnied like a horse !!! Therefore, the generals chose a revolver with the proud name "NAGAN"! Moreover, a single action, so that the lieutenant was dashing to play "Russian Roulette" laughing
      Thank you Vyacheslav Olegovich for the morning "prominade" with coffee! Good day everyone! However, special thanks to the benevolent Alain Daubresse, with whose photographs the work of the Author sparkled with special colors !!!
      1. Aag
        +4
        19 2021 June
        You denote irony somehow!))
        Many can take it at face value .. hi
        1. +4
          19 2021 June
          Quote: AAG
          You denote irony somehow!))
          Many can take it at face value .. hi

          Naturally! Crushed my lyba when I wrote a comment !!! laughing
          With all due respect, Vlad!
          1. Aag
            +2
            19 2021 June
            hi Well, it's just a shame when worthwhile comments are drowned in minuses from people who do not even try to delve into the topic, but consider themselves specialists in a wide range.)))
            1. +3
              20 2021 June
              Quote: AAG
              hi Well, it's just a shame when worthwhile comments are drowned in minuses from people who do not even try to delve into the topic, but consider themselves specialists in a wide range.)))

              There is such a thing!
              Although, considering that I am a regular in VO, I am old, harmful in nature, sometimes not restrained in my language, and even on my head with my own head and eyes, so most of the minuses are apparently molded not for the content of this commentary, but for old sins.
              However, it always doesn’t interfere with smiling, before the VO had its own staff cartoonist “Vitalik”.
              Well, somewhere like that!
              I'm sorry - good morning!
              1. Aag
                +1
                20 2021 June
                Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Quote: AAG
                hi Well, it's just a shame when worthwhile comments are drowned in minuses from people who do not even try to delve into the topic, but consider themselves specialists in a wide range.)))

                There is such a thing!
                Although, considering that I am a regular in VO, I am old, harmful in nature, sometimes not restrained in my language, and even on my head with my own head and eyes, so most of the minuses are apparently molded not for the content of this commentary, but for old sins.
                However, it always doesn’t interfere with smiling, before the VO had its own staff cartoonist “Vitalik”.
                Well, somewhere like that!
                I'm sorry - good morning!

                Good day, Vadim!
                "... by nature, harmful, sometimes not restrained on the tongue, and even on his head with his head and gaze ..." - not the worst characteristic, self-esteem.)) In fairness, maybe because they evaluate themselves in the same way)) ...
                "... they sculpt not for the content of this commentary, but old sins ....". I agree. Moreover, it seems, even without reading the content of the comment itself ...
                On "VO" relatively recently, I have been reading longer ... Unfortunately, the drop in the level is very noticeable. Populizim is flourishing ... However, as elsewhere ... It is noticeable in other, even, say, highly specialized forums, - audio engineering, spearfishing ...
                Sorry for the off-top ...
                And, yes! Due to the imperfection of communication, I am rewriting my comment addressed to you for the third time. During this time, the topic was overgrown with a bunch of comments, perhaps not directly related to the topic of the article, ... it looks like you have your own "general" get-together! And, you know, it pleases! I like the style, form, topic of communication!
                ... Not asking for it))). But, really, it's nice to read.
                Respectfully yours (for the overwhelming majority of your comments) Alexander. hi
                1. +1
                  20 2021 June
                  Quote: AAG
                  . Looks like you have your own "general" get-together! And, you know, it pleases! I like the style, form, topic of communication!
                  ... Not asking for it))). But, really, it's nice to read.

                  Alexander, good evening! To be honest, I noted your comments a year ago. I read it with pleasure.
                  Regarding shoulder straps, I lived to see the generals at the VO three times. I am completely indifferent to titles. In real life, my stars are responsibility, sleepless nights and nerves. Here (on VO) a kind company of like-minded people who, in addition to history and weapons, loves a sparkling joke and, most importantly, shares their baggage of knowledge, skills and abilities! Some "holivars" have excellent academic knowledge, others are able to explain in an accessible way, and still others can listen and support the discussion. All this is in a heap WE !!! The most important thing is to respect each other's opinions, and the rest will follow.
                  Yes, catophiles are welcome in our company! However, there are a couple of cinephiles, but these are so lost souls who are deluded in their beliefs! We do not like only hamsters.
                  The last paragraph is ironic !!!
                  Regards, Vlad!
                  1. Aag
                    +2
                    20 2021 June
                    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Quote: AAG
                    . Looks like you have your own "general" get-together! And, you know, it pleases! I like the style, form, topic of communication!
                    ... Not asking for it))). But, really, it's nice to read.

                    Alexander, good evening! To be honest, I noted your comments a year ago. I read it with pleasure.
                    Regarding shoulder straps, I lived to see the generals at the VO three times. I am completely indifferent to titles. In real life, my stars are responsibility, sleepless nights and nerves. Here (on VO) a kind company of like-minded people who, in addition to history and weapons, loves a sparkling joke and, most importantly, shares their baggage of knowledge, skills and abilities! Some "holivars" have excellent academic knowledge, others are able to explain in an accessible way, and still others can listen and support the discussion. All this is in a heap WE !!! The most important thing is to respect each other's opinions, and the rest will follow.
                    Yes, catophiles are welcome in our company! However, there are a couple of cinephiles, but these are so lost souls who are deluded in their beliefs! We do not like only hamsters.
                    The last paragraph is ironic !!!
                    Regards, Vlad!

                    Thank you for your support, Vlad !!!
                    (a strange thing, - on my smartphone, it didn't even show that the message, the comment "passed" ...
                    "... Here (on VO) a kind company of like-minded people who, in addition to history and weapons, loves a sparkling joke and, most importantly, shares their baggage of knowledge, skills and abilities! ..."
                    This is what keeps, the site gives a kind of joy, "confidence in the future (from the word" day ")))!
                    Thank you, all the good old VO community! : hi
                  2. Aag
                    +2
                    20 2021 June
                    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Quote: AAG
                    . Looks like you have your own "general" get-together! And, you know, it pleases! I like the style, form, topic of communication!
                    ... Not asking for it))). But, really, it's nice to read.

                    Alexander, good evening! To be honest, I noted your comments a year ago. I read it with pleasure.
                    Regarding shoulder straps, I lived to see the generals at the VO three times. I am completely indifferent to titles. In real life, my stars are responsibility, sleepless nights and nerves. Here (on VO) a kind company of like-minded people who, in addition to history and weapons, loves a sparkling joke and, most importantly, shares their baggage of knowledge, skills and abilities! Some "holivars" have excellent academic knowledge, others are able to explain in an accessible way, and still others can listen and support the discussion. All this is in a heap WE !!! The most important thing is to respect each other's opinions, and the rest will follow.
                    Yes, catophiles are welcome in our company! However, there are a couple of cinephiles, but these are so lost souls who are deluded in their beliefs! We do not like only hamsters.
                    The last paragraph is ironic !!!
                    Regards, Vlad!

                    ... Here ... "... Yes, catophiles are welcome in our company! ..." To the marrow of bones.! Not that I do not share the feelings of "catophiles", but let me stay with my convictions without restriction of rights))).
                    It's a pity, - I still haven't mastered - insert images, links ... I assure you, - I would knock out a tear for many .......
                    1. 0
                      20 2021 June
                      Quote: AAG
                      but, let me stay with my convictions without restriction in rights))).

                      Never mind, we teach you how to love cats!
                      It's a joke, essentially a cat or dog question is not fundamental, but "from a high fence you can ..."!
                      Photo. Click the fourth icon from the top of the comment. Press the big red button "select a photo from the computer." Then choose where to download the photo and upload it. Then put a kryzhik in front of the photo and at the bottom look for the red photo download button. Then write a comment. And that's all, if anything, please! hi
    2. +15
      19 2021 June
      Ammunition savings?

      So they still managed the "Soldier" Nagant without self-cocking, so that the soldiers did not waste their ammunition for nothing. The soldier was always cheaper than a cartridge. And you say - Piper, with a quick reload. What about? And so everything will come down. "Clever people".
      1. Greetings, gentlemen!
        For me personally, today's article has enlightened a lot! Previously, I knew the Bayard company only from the film "The Meeting Place Cannot Be Changed", and Mexican revolver rifles, from the film "Golden Bullet".
        Of course, one could dig on the Internet, but Vyacheslav Olegovich wrote an article in which everything is already consistent and systematized, for which many thanks to him!
        1. +4
          19 2021 June
          Exactly. The first association is "Meeting place ...".
      2. +18
        19 2021 June
        In the army, the novelty was accepted without enthusiasm. On the one hand, carrying a light revolver with you was much more pleasant than a heavy Smith-Wesson. On the other hand, it was somehow undignified to have a revolver in enlightened times that cannot shoot self-cocking. In a war, everyone can decide in a split second, and there may simply not be time to cock the trigger. As a result, the revolvers were nevertheless made self-cocking. But not all, only officers: the soldiers, from the point of view of their superiors, will cope with that, otherwise the cartridges are not endless. And the officers who do not like their native revolver were graciously allowed to buy pistols or revolvers of foreign models at their own expense - as well as cartridges for them The Russian army officers did not shine with special wealth. Nevertheless, “voting with the ruble” turned out to be massive - in which case life is more expensive. Therefore, excellent evidence soon appeared, such as "Artkom emphasized that competitive shooting is allowed only from a revolver of the Nagant system, not from" Parabellums and Browning ", as the officers tried to do."
        1. Fat
          +8
          19 2021 June
          hi Well, it's too long approach. It's actually easier. Self-cocking is enough at point-blank range. And stop the escaping villain?
          1. +1
            8 September 2021
            like so? "go away ..."
        2. +11
          19 2021 June
          The Russo-Japanese War forced the purchase of rifle cartridges in Germany. "Suddenly" it turned out that large-scale hostilities did not help save ammunition.
          And no "economy" helped. War. But not the same as the Russian generals imagined.
          1. +3
            19 2021 June
            Lesha, colleagues, I heard from the father-in-law's father that in the Second World War we also had very shortage of ammunition
            1. +3
              19 2021 June
              Even in Iran, they made cartridges 7,62x25.
              And the casings from these cartridges were found near Voronezh. How many warehouses have we lost !!!
              And every downed plane (except for the La family and Lend-Lease). A burned out or an armored vehicle. Everywhere in the ammunition were 7,62x54R cartridges.
              This is the constant loss of ammunition.
              1. 0
                20 2021 June
                As far as I know: 7,62x25. - TT pistol
                1. +3
                  20 2021 June
                  He is. In Iran, the PPSh was also made for the Red Army.
                  1. +1
                    20 2021 June
                    I haven't heard that.
            2. +3
              19 2021 June
              Lesha, colleagues, I heard from the father-in-law's father that in the Second World War we also had very shortage of ammunition

              About the whole World War II is not necessary. This father-in-law sorely lacked.
              1. 0
                20 2021 June
                Colleague Aviator, I did not talk about the whole Second World War.
                1. +1
                  20 2021 June
                  Colleague Aviator, I did not talk about the whole Second World War.

                  There are no complaints about you. It was your relative who made a mistake, he said about the whole Second World War. Veterans sometimes make inaccuracies, especially when they are already old.
                  1. +1
                    20 2021 June
                    Probably, he meant the beginning of the Second World War, or maybe this was the most memorable for him?
                    1. +1
                      20 2021 June
                      maybe this was the most memorable for him?

                      This is real. In his book about the Soviet-Finnish war, the historian Bair Irincheev sometimes cites very absurd memories of the veterans of that war. In particular, some seriously believed that Finnish pillboxes have a rubber coating, which is why shells bounce off them. For rubber, they took tar moisture insulation, but the shells, of course, ricocheted at the appropriate angles of encounter with the surface.
        3. +13
          19 2021 June
          Have you tried to shoot from the Nagant, or at least held it in your hands? And I own one, and have shot a lot. I dare to assure you, of course, you can shoot with self-cocking, but it is difficult to hit. The descent is so hard that you just pull it. Cock cock doesn't take a lot of time, but the descent makes it much easier.
          For what the gentlemen officers needed a self-platoon, it was to communicate with drunken or rrrr-revolutionary (often both at once) lower ranks. Here even a split second for cocking was important, and the distance "point-blank", so no matter how you pull the trigger, the bullet will find the guilty one.
          1. +13
            19 2021 June
            I dare to assure you, of course, you can shoot with self-cocking, but it is difficult to hit. The descent is so hard that you just pull it.

            I absolutely agree, I have a similar experience. Self-cocking from a revolver can only be fired at point-blank range. And to pick out the sleeves with a ramrod - vaaasche trash and waste. And - for all its legendaryness, we have to admit that in general - a shitty revolver .. Perhaps one of the worst ..
          2. Aag
            +3
            19 2021 June
            With "drunks", apparently, they have to communicate at a different distance ... However, as in a trench battle, special accuracy is not the main parameter?
          3. +4
            19 2021 June
            Quote: Nagan
            Have you tried to shoot from the Nagant, or at least held it in your hands? And I own one, and have shot a lot. I dare to assure you, of course, you can shoot with self-cocking, but it is difficult to hit. The descent is so hard that you just pull it. Cock cock doesn't take a lot of time, but the descent makes it much easier.

            All right!
            I will add on my own. Nagant (revolver) is a hundred years old at lunchtime. During this time, the very approach of the dictates of practical shooting has changed. With all the practice, if you shoot with one hand and cock the trigger with your thumb, you involuntarily weaken the grip of the handle. For modern practical shooting with two hands, the revolver is extremely inconvenient. And they did not practice it during the years of its appearance in service. However, as today, they do not shoot from the elbow, since they practiced arrows of a century ago.
            Well, somewhere like that!
          4. +1
            22 2021 June
            Yes, I shot from the Nagant. And self-cocking and cocking the trigger. Self-cocking, the descent is heavy, but not fatal. It all depends on how correctly you hold the revolver and how quickly you need to shoot. A matter of habit or skill in correct shooting.
      3. +10
        19 2021 June

        As a trademark of his company, Henri Piepert took an image of a rider galloping on a horse with the inscription BAYARD. Such a well-chosen symbol allowed him to immediately draw attention to his products. What did the emblem mean?
        In 1872 in Paris the second edition was published by Champier's novel about the adventures of the brave knight Bayard. The book was a huge success in reading Europe.
        The real Pierre du Thérail Bayard was born near Grenoble in 1476. and entered the service as a page to the king of France Charles VIII. At court, he became famous for his indomitable courage and brilliant martial art. Accompanying Francis I to Italy, he prepared a daring passage through the Alps and fought with such heroism that the French king wished to be knighted by Bayard's hand. For his exploits, Pierre du Terail Bayard received the nickname "Knight without fear and reproach."
        1. +5
          19 2021 June
          Famous for him: "Do what you must, and be what will be."
      4. +8
        19 2021 June
        Kostya hi
        EMNIP, one of the main criteria for winning the competition was the possibility of the cheapest production in Russia.
        Not the least role in the choice of Nagan was also played by the fact that he was lighter than Pieper (790gr against 850), although a member of the commission of the owner of the prince. Nikolai Nikolaevich wrote down a "dissenting opinion" that 60 gr. absolutely does not play any role, but for convenience Pieper is better ... But alas, they did not listen to him
        1. +7
          19 2021 June
          Dima hi
          Was Russia too rich and could afford to buy cheap things? laughing
          1. +8
            19 2021 June
            But in this case she did just that. smile
      5. +4
        19 2021 June
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Ammunition savings?

        So they still managed the "Soldier" Nagant without self-cocking, so that the soldiers would not waste ammunition for nothing. The soldier was always cheaper than a cartridge. ...
        The good news is that in 1901 RIA adopted Maxim machine gun 7,62x54R
        machine gun Maxim 1901
        And then the Japanese in Manchuria in 1904-05 only with a "bayonet" ...
        Three-inch gun 76,2mm mod. 1902 was without a shield.
        three-inch

        soldier
    3. +5
      19 2021 June
      About pickup. At that time, not only in the Republic of Ingushetia for the "lower ranks" revolvers were without self-collection. It seems in Belgium too. About this on the site flashed infa
    4. 0
      January 10 2022
      Under tsarism, soldiers were cheaper than cartridges, probably; (
  3. +11
    19 2021 June
    And yet "Nagant" sounds more solid than "Piper" - thought the bureaucrats from the military department, and perhaps they got a kickback ... history is silent about this.
    1. +11
      19 2021 June
      and maybe they got a rollback ...
      I, too, have vague doubts about this. But so far no unequivocal evidence of the untidiness of the selection committee has been found, we will assume that all this is an accident. It just so well coincided, with whom it does not happen.
    2. +7
      19 2021 June
      all the same, "Nagant" sounds more solid than "Piper"

      But no more solid than Bayard
      1. +8
        19 2021 June
        I'm not a specialist, but I read that the Bayard cartridges are better in their performance characteristics than the Naganovskie ...
  4. +15
    19 2021 June
    Yes, there is a well-known truth: it's hard for a Komsomol member in a village without a revolver! But man is not alive with revolvers alone! And Pieper proved it! As the distinguished Author has already mentioned, A. Piper was engaged not only in revolvers, but also in rifles, smooth-bore guns ... and even got to bikes and cars! By the way, A. Pieper was going to produce a "hybrid" (electric-gasoline) car, which began to gain popularity only in the late 20th and early 21st centuries! But why am I? Better to watch "vidos"

    Not only Piper's revolvers were known, but also two-barreled guns ...!
    1. +11
      19 2021 June
      and even got to bikes and cars!

      And not only. He also got to the tram, since the first Belgian electric tram is also Henri Pieper.
      1. +9
        19 2021 June
        Quote: Undecim
        He also got to the tram, since the first Belgian electric tram is also Henri Pieper.

        Right! But the tram is also mentioned in the first video ... and there is a photo there ... hi
    2. +14
      19 2021 June
      Duc understandably, the company Nicolas Pieper (in August 1905 received the status of a joint-stock company and a new name: Anciens Etablissements Piepera Liege ("Pieper's old establishments in Liege") is not some kind of sharashkin's office! According to the Russian gunsmith S.A. , who visited Liege in 1902, Henri Piper's establishment was the largest rifle enterprise in Belgium! And the double-barreled guns differed mainly in the quality of assembly, the type of upper locking unit, the design of the blocks and keyboards. The hammers of the Diana model with the image of the goddess of the hunt were assembled with great care, the guns had a thickened barrel clutch and a very beautiful engraving, and the Piper's hammerless rifle was considered in Russia the best foreign machine-tool design. No one disputes that Piper is a fine fellow!
      1. +9
        19 2021 June
        Nicolas Pieper firm - is not Henri Piper's establishment, this is "the establishment of his son Nicholas.
  5. Fat
    +11
    19 2021 June
    hi Oh, these gifts, oh, these kickbacks and gesheft with bribe. Great thing.
    "They do not frighten with money, they are jammed" (c)
    I think the competition was not "Unbiased" request
    1. +13
      19 2021 June
      Well, as they say - not caught, not a thief ... And the story of the competition seemed to many then, as if it were softer, not entirely transparent or something ... Here are the well-known connections of Brother Leon with the tall faces of the whitest bone and blue blood, and a lot of other things, well, it's okay, take the competition itself - Colonel Mosin, fully loaded with mastering the production of a rifle, clearly participated in this competition to get away with - presenting either some of his unfinished project, or just a fake. He did not count on something serious, he was simply told to participate - and he saluted ... A couple more options (models of Kuhn-Zalyubovsky and Uainen) were attempts to remake the good old Smith-Wesson, there were also a couple of extremely imperfect automatic Well, where are the luminaries - the Colts, Smith-Wessons and other Webley Scots? They were simply not interested in this competition. With such a wealth of choice, it is no longer surprising that Nagant won.
      1. +8
        19 2021 June
        In principle, the correct question is: why did Colt, Smith and Wesson not participate in the competition?
        If Colt wanted to participate in the competition, Nikolai 2 could not refuse.
        1. +3
          19 2021 June
          If Colt wanted to participate in the competition, Nikolai 2 could not refuse.

          to paraphrase the godfather - it is difficult to refuse a contestant with a Colt smile
      2. Aag
        +2
        19 2021 June
        Did I understand you correctly that the noneshnye stories with kickbacks, logical misunderstandings in the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation are just a continuation of world history?
        If anything, it's a bitter irony ... It seems to me (or does it just seem to me?) That there were better, productive times in the history of our country ... hi
        1. +1
          20 2021 June
          "nothing is new in this world" (c) everything is learned in comparison and the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation
          1. Aag
            0
            20 2021 June
            Quote: vladcub
            "nothing is new in this world" (c) everything is learned in comparison and the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation

            I think that in the USSR the motivation was ... different. At different times, in different ways ... But, definitely, it is more effective!
        2. +2
          20 2021 June
          Quote: AAG
          Did I understand you correctly that the noneshnye stories with kickbacks, logical misunderstandings in the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation are just a continuation of world history?
          If anything, it's a bitter irony ... It seems to me (or does it just seem to me?) That there were better, productive times in the history of our country ... hi

          Well, let's put it, and the Soviet military-industrial complex periodically began to sculpt something utterly ... The feeling that, too, for kickbacks ... lol lol .
          1. Aag
            -1
            20 2021 June
            Quote: your1970
            Quote: AAG
            Did I understand you correctly that the noneshnye stories with kickbacks, logical misunderstandings in the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation are just a continuation of world history?
            If anything, it's a bitter irony ... It seems to me (or does it just seem to me?) That there were better, productive times in the history of our country ... hi


            Well, let's put it, and the Soviet military-industrial complex periodically began to sculpt something utterly ... The feeling that, too, for kickbacks ... lol lol .

            Definitely, there were similar moments.
            Only, nature, IMHO, these blunders are somewhat (if not radically) different!
            Are we going to argue about efficiency? drinks hi
            It seems that if "kickbacks" did take place, they were of a different nature, not aimed in most cases at personal enrichment ...
            1. 0
              20 2021 June
              Looking at the fortels with the Kurchevski guns, it feels like ALL in the share were
              And the epic with 45 mm armor-piercing ???

              Quote: AAG
              aimed in most cases at personal enrichment ...
              imagine the 1930s ...
              When you have one car in the city, it's cooler than any Lamborghini today (even if you have a hundred of them now) ...
              You are the only one, and even in theory, no one will have a car in the next 10 years ... Or even until the 1950s ..
              Well, except for 1 secretary of the Regional Committee of the VKPB ...
        3. 0
          January 10 2022
          If you look at the rearmaments between 1850 and 1870, there is also a lot of strange.
  6. +13
    19 2021 June
    Interestingly, in all the weapons stories, in tsarist Russia they did not even try to develop anything themselves. Foreigners were immediately called.
    Information for crystal bakers.
    And as the damned Bolsheviks found out, there was an abundance of brains in Russia.
    1. Fat
      +5
      19 2021 June
      Well, there is no prophet in the Fatherland. But if you stimulate a couple of clever people who did not want to and (or) did not have time to dribble ...
      Where is there Mosin.
      Fedorov, Tokarev, Sudaev, where is Simonov, Kalashnikov?
      There is no harm in borrowing.
      Fools learn solely from their mistakes. And inventors invent new problems laughing
      1. +3
        19 2021 June
        Andrew! hi
        Simply, the above comment is a way to stir up another holivar under a good article.
        1. Fat
          +3
          19 2021 June
          Anton. Holivar will not appear under this publication. Article from V.O.- Wonderful.
          Technically literate and informative.
          As they say, sapienti sat (reasonable enough)
          Personally, I would not post any word ...
          Just for red expression.
          I really like how Oleg Vyacheslavovich handles this ...
          "You don't need a knife for a fool ..."
          And imagine, Olegovich is always neutral. I remember some of his early posts ... - Bonba!
          1. +6
            19 2021 June
            Holivar will not appear under this publication.
            That would be great! good
            Do you know why I love materials about the European Middle Ages? (Well, besides the fact that I myself am fond of this era and know a little about it). This topic never initiates a civil war on the forum!
            1. +4
              19 2021 June
              When they cease to be fed with modern politics, they will get caught up in the Middle Ages. laughing
              1. 0
                19 2021 June
                Dust swallow dust! am
              2. +2
                19 2021 June
                Then the uttermost trinity. The only consolation is that it's not soon
            2. Fat
              +2
              19 2021 June
              Well, damn it, Naive. The theory of class struggle can be crammed anywhere. There would be a desire. The position is a clown, you, as an intelligent person, are comfortable and nothing more. In fact, you are in great pain. We are all evil cynics in your formation ...
              Epst. How do you put up with us?
              1. +3
                19 2021 June
                The position is a clown, you, as an intelligent person, are comfortable and nothing more. In fact, you are in great pain.
                Exactly!
                Epst. How do you put up with us?
                Because you are all the same as me, with the same diagnosis.
                1. Fat
                  +3
                  19 2021 June
                  I'll definitely get drunk today. I did it.
                  Here you are forever with "your Theories" ... you can't hide laughing crying
                  Highway romance ...
                  And we don't want to live differently
                  We walk along the edge, along the edge
                  To the dear ...
                  1. +1
                    19 2021 June
                    "I live comfortably in the middle of the road,
                    Sitting on the "white strip" "(c)
                    1. Fat
                      +2
                      19 2021 June
                      Blessed scoundrel!
                      Snowflake
                      Light fluffy
                      Snowflake is white
                      How clean
                      How brave!
                      Dear stormy
                      It sweeps easily
                      Not sky-blue skyward,
                      Asks to land.
                      Wonderful azure
                      She left
                      Into the unknown
                      The country has overthrown.
                      In the rays of shining
                      Slides, skillful,
                      Among the melting flakes
                      Preserved white.
                      In the wind
                      It trembles, flies up,
                      On him, cherishing,
                      Swinging lightly.
                      His swing
                      She is comforted
                      With its blizzards
                      Spinning wildly.
                      But now it ends
                      The road is long
                      Touches the ground
                      The star is crystal.
                      Lies fluffy
                      The snowflake is bold.
                      How clean
                      What a white!

                      November 1903, XNUMX
                      K. Balmont.
                      1. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        "Life is myth, between the past and the future "
                2. +1
                  19 2021 June
                  Yes. And we do not hide it.
              2. +4
                19 2021 June
                Do you want Anton to take a pick and pick up his opponents?
            3. +2
              19 2021 June
              "does not initiate a civil war" probably, these topics are for true connoisseurs of history, and "revolutionary-patriotic" there, to put it mildly, "float"
            4. +2
              19 2021 June
              Are Yorker supporters upset?
              1. +2
                19 2021 June
                Where are the Yorkies and where are the "enemies of the communists"?
                1. +3
                  19 2021 June
                  For eternity - near.
                  1. +3
                    19 2021 June
                    "There are two issues on the agenda: the first is the construction of a barn, the second is the construction of communism. Due to the lack of money for materials, let's go straight to the second."
                    1. +3
                      19 2021 June
                      “Gloves whistled in my cafe today and ... I fell in love with another” (c).
          2. Aag
            +5
            19 2021 June
            Sorry, but interrupted: "... And imagine, Olegovich is always neutral ....".
            I would not say that ... Correct, for the most part; diplomatic, -Yes! But, his opinion, albeit not always intrusive, he always brings. IMHO, of course.
            In any case, thanks to the author for the article; commentators, for
            informative, interesting (and "grim", sorry for bad manners, comments). hi
        2. +2
          19 2021 June
          Hello Anton! hi
          Well, for me, one word "crustaceans" was enough to address this comment appropriately. drinks
          1. +3
            19 2021 June
            The most important thing is that this character understands the topic even worse than me (at least I heard about General Filatov), ​​if only with the slogan "beacon".
            Hi Uncle Kostya!
          2. +4
            19 2021 June
            I do not like? Then crunch alone and in the dark)) laughing
            In general, these stamps are already for ... gouging.
            1. 0
              19 2021 June
              In general, these stamps are already for ... gouging.

              About this and speech, they came up with stupid words and constantly shove them wherever they get, there is not enough imagination for more.
              And about "alone and in the dark", it's you yourself. laughing
              1. 0
                19 2021 June
                Kostya, hello. Are you suggesting that Okolotochny is so drunk?
                1. +5
                  19 2021 June
                  Hello, Glory. hi
                  "I'm not hinting at anything, I'm just singing songs."
                  1. +3
                    19 2021 June
                    I got what you mean . And if to be serious, I can't do that: "from the throat" and alone. Brr.
                    At lunch, "weaving" home is possible and necessary for health. And it's not stressful for the pocket
                2. +3
                  19 2021 June
                  I didn’t understand something? Or are the double parentheses at the end not readable? Or is it a bit heavy with humor in the Ilyich farm? I wrote to Constantine with humor. And I think he understood me. For residents of the suburbs - I never get hungover, after drinking I prefer physical labor, comes out with sweat.
                  1. +3
                    19 2021 June
                    ... I never get a hangover, after drinking I prefer physical labor, it comes out with sweat.

                    I agree with this, but how hard it is sometimes to force yourself! laughing But getting hungover is definitely the last thing.
                    As there the father told his son:
                    "Play it, but don't play it back, drink it, but don't get hungover." Holy truths. drinks
                    1. +1
                      19 2021 June
                      Konstantin, there was sarcasm for crunching a roll.
                  2. 0
                    19 2021 June
                    I apologize if I didn’t make a good joke.
                    Kostya and I have already said that there are stupid jokes.
              2. +1
                19 2021 June
                Konstantin, well, you seem to be adequate, do not understand the humor? Soryan.
                1. +3
                  19 2021 June
                  Yes, everything is fine, Alexey, there are no problems. smile
        3. +9
          19 2021 June
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          another holivar under a good article.

          Well, here, Anton, the author was shot down by a clique ...
          The mmaxx commentary is quite capable of growing into a whole polemic with a dozen replies and a hundred extra views, and you all at once with cold water ... Let them boast that it prevents you from flipping through these materials, and the plus sign will go to the author ...
          For example, I, on the contrary, am ready to throw kerosene into the flame of the next controversy. smile
          I argue that at the end of the XIX - beginning of the XX century. The Russian Empire was a technically deeply backward state, led by a handful of retrogrades who in every possible way prevented the reduction of this gap. Despite the fact that among the intelligentsia, including the technical one, there were always plenty of people who were extremely talented, capable of taking the country to a new level comparable to that of the advanced European countries, their initiatives, unfortunately, were most often blocked. That is why some characters, not burdened with knowledge, say that
          Quote: mmaxx
          in tsarist Russia did not even try to develop anything themselves

          True, in this case you have to forget about the three-line rifle and the three-inch cannon, but these are already details. And about developments, for example, Fedorov, you just do not know.
          That's it, the kerosene is added, I'm leaving. I'm going to Ladoga, lounging on the beach, drinking cognac in the evening, eating meat and meeting the sunrise from the water to the music of Wagner.
          Good luck to all colleagues!
          smile hi
          1. +6
            19 2021 June
            You can also recall the competitions for 122mm howitzers ...
            You can think of a lot. The question is who will produce.
            Have a nice rest drinks hi
            1. +4
              19 2021 June
              Alexey hi , unfortunately, not everything was so rosy, chimeras like Lebedenko's "tank" were also developed, and there were a lot of all sorts of absurdities against the background of really talented projects and inventions. However, as always and everywhere. smile
              1. Aag
                +2
                19 2021 June
                Excuse me, but how to determine the value, prospects of a development, invention, discovery? It is difficult to judge how it was "abroad", but we have plenty of examples. Apparently, this is a topic for a deep, and most importantly, broad, in terms of various fields of science , techniques, articles (I don’t think there will be specialists of this level, -depth and latitude))). It looks like -here-so ... who feels how (not an objective indicator ...))) hi
                1. +3
                  19 2021 June
                  That is why I cited Lebedenko's "tank" as an example, because elementary calculations of the specific pressure on the ground would show the inconsistency of this project. Otherwise, you are certainly right. hi
                  1. Aag
                    +2
                    19 2021 June
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    That is why I cited Lebedenko's "tank" as an example, because elementary calculations of the specific pressure on the ground would show the inconsistency of this project. Otherwise, you are certainly right. hi

                    The example with the "tank" Lebedenko appreciated. And, apparently, we are talking about the same thing: under certain conditions (protectionism, mat. Interest, etc. ...) could have been adopted. The consequences are difficult to predict ... On the other hand, -Sometimes (sometimes) such projects give an impetus to development. Tactics, technologies, etc. Even if not right away ... How many times has happened: "But this has already happened!" ... Yes, it was proposed ... But was not claimed. For various reasons ...
                    Sorry, suffered)))). hi
                    1. +1
                      20 2021 June
                      Sorry, suffered)))). hi

                      No, that's right. hi
          2. Fat
            +4
            19 2021 June
            ABOUT! Glad to wish and good ways. Better success over the weekend than Wagner's Kommersant laughing
          3. +6
            19 2021 June
            Mouse:
            For example, I, on the contrary, am ready to throw a kerosene into the flame of another controversy

            So Anton suppressed me, even earlier. Now I am afraid to approach him. As a result, she hammered down the forum and quietly yapped something twice.
            I would like to write about the Mosin rifle, which is excellent and is still appreciated, but somehow chilly. I'm afraid of Anton.
            1. +6
              19 2021 June
              Good afternoon, Luda hi .
              There is no need to be afraid of Anton, he is a kind person, he will not torment him for a long time - he will shoot him from the first shot. laughing
              Regarding Mosinka, it is difficult to agree with you, the Mauser K98 is much more perfect and better, almost the whole world copied it, and the shutter is still copied in all kinds of hunting systems. But the fact is that for Russia at that time it was the most profitable infantry weapon in terms of ease of handling and unpretentiousness.
              1. +6
                19 2021 June
                But it all poured from Gever 1888 !!!
                And from a sleeve without a protruding rim.
                Our officials decided to "save money" and left the cartridge with a belted rim. The British also did not remove the rim. This did not interfere with them in the creation and production of small arms.
                And for us, as "bad dancers", there is now the edge, now the lack of our own design school, and the main obstacle was the desire to buy everything abroad.
                For production, the people will need to be taught. And the peasants will run to the city. Whoever then grows wheat for sale abroad will ... And graze the Vologda cows ...
                1. +3
                  19 2021 June
                  For production, the people will need to be taught. And the peasants will run to the city. Whoever then grows wheat for sale abroad will ... And graze the Vologda cows ...


                  When I was young, I sympathized with the "villagers", and after reading the statistics, I was stunned by the understanding that the village had not been killed since the 50s - on the contrary, employment was artificially maintained in it, with bloated and completely redundant staffs. I just don’t know whether it was consciously, or the twists and turns of ideology, which by that time had finally degenerated into a quasi-religion.
                  1. +1
                    19 2021 June
                    When I started talking about the peasantry, I thought about the main export items of Ingushetia. They clearly lacked the products of the military-industrial complex and other high-tech goods of that time. Rifles were donated, machine guns were not sold, pistols were not produced, warships were not created for foreign customers. But they were proud of the growth in wheat exports, forgetting that the Balkan region was selling it more than RI.
                  2. 0
                    20 2021 June
                    This was the case in the city. Sov. the authorities believed that everyone should work. So I created jobs where it was necessary and where it was not necessary. In its own way it was correct. But it led to consumption and drunkenness. Without difficulties, people begin to toil with foolishness.
                  3. 0
                    20 2021 June
                    Quote: deddem
                    I only know whether it was consciously, or the twists and turns of ideology, by that time it was completely

                    The vital need to provide all the work
              2. +3
                19 2021 June
                Kostya, in fact, with the mosinka, not everything is simple: she "borrowed" from Nagan and Mauser and even little things
              3. +5
                19 2021 June
                Kostya !!!!! wassat good drinks )))
                She laughed so hard that she almost fell off her chair!
                It's about Anton. I believe the misunderstanding will be resolved)))
                And about the mosinka - the rifle - I heard for a long time that there is no more reliable weapon. Maybe just because the other was not held in their hands. In addition, now the mosinka is such an archaic, which consists of reliable metal and wood. For some reason they don't trust plastic. From the experience of the kitchen I testify: old cast-iron pans, oiled with vegetable oil and properly fired, are eternal. Also, eternal steel bowls of Soviet production - neither one nor the other does anything. And modern dishes - oh! ... You have to buy a frying pan every two years. Maybe this is the reason for the distrust of everything new? I attached an optical sight to the mosinka, and here it is, a sniper.
                1. +6
                  19 2021 June
                  As for the pans - that's for sure, I noticed myself. Tefal, she likes and thinks for us, but a cast iron is more reliable. smile
                  As for Mosinka, any weapon must correspond to the level of general and technical literacy of the bulk of the soldiers of the army in which they are adopted. I think on this issue with the "three-line" everything is clear. Just to give an example: why do Negroes prefer our AK and its clones? Not so much because it is relatively cheap, but mainly because there is no need to take care of it, it will still shoot, and they are lazy and absolutely illiterate people. It's simple.
                  1. +4
                    19 2021 June
                    That is how it is ... The level of technical literacy. I am sure our warriors are up to the mark in this respect.
                    1. +2
                      19 2021 June
                      The level is different for everyone, contract soldiers - one thing, conscripts - another. I really would not like to test it in practice.
                      1. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        I thought about the photo. These are not teachings.
                      2. +3
                        19 2021 June
                        I'm not sure, I think it's a training session.
                      3. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        But it looks like something! It was already scary.
                      4. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        It was already scary.

                        Is that ... And here is the real horror! sad
                      5. +5
                        19 2021 June
                        Contrary to the widespread belief that a cat's face always has the same expression, I have always read a lot of feline emotions, and they amazed me with their diversity. The person's face is less expressive! wassat ))))
                      6. +3
                        19 2021 June
                        widely held opinion

                        This is the opinion of the dog lovers. Any cat lover will tell you that it is not.
                      7. +3
                        19 2021 June
                        These are not teachings.

                        Did you mark the route in battle with a ribbon? Still teachings. Surprisingly good old AKM 7,62
                      8. +3
                        19 2021 June
                        So after all, the special forces, they themselves choose. smile
                    2. +2
                      22 2021 June
                      It meant the end of the 19th century and the peasants of Russia who made up the majority in the army of Ingushetia. Although a bear can be taught to ride a bike. The main thing is how to teach military science. But I believe that the main thing is the level of RI production and technical literacy. I don’t call the 1891 rifle "Mosin" in principle. The Author had a huge article on this rifle and all the points have been placed finally. Why repeat Soviet cliches about a brilliant designer and a bloody tsar?
                  2. +1
                    19 2021 June
                    I read it a long time ago - the hero of the book said that he kept his pistol in an oil tin box and he was told that he knows how to take care of his personal weapon!
                    You can also spoil the "unkillable" AK.
                    Especially if you breed slugs in it. Orange Spanish.
                    As Sergeant Major Vaskov said, it's good that they haven't lit wood lice in their carbines yet. And he made his soldiers clean the weapons entrusted to them.
                    1. +5
                      19 2021 June
                      ... keeps his pistol in an oil can ...

                      It is completely optional, the main thing is that the weapon should be cleaned and greased, and what kind of grease depends on the shelf life. After taking the weapon in hand, it must be wiped with a dry cloth and always remember that human sweat is very caustic, especially female (no chauvinism, naked physiology), so it is best to pick up a collection weapon with cotton gloves on.
              4. +4
                19 2021 June
                For example, I, on the contrary, am ready to throw a kerosene into the flame of another controversy

                "The case smells like kerosene" (c) smile
                1. +4
                  19 2021 June
                  "The only thing that can save a mortally wounded cat is a sip of gasoline! .." (c)
                  1. +2
                    19 2021 June
                    Kerosene is expensive today (c)
                    1. +2
                      19 2021 June
                      "Why is there so much? Oats are expensive today?" (C)
                      1. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        Oats are expensive today - this is already later for Ilf and Petrov, and in the primary source for Averchenko - kerosene
                  2. +1
                    19 2021 June
                    Why gasoline ???
                    1. +3
                      19 2021 June
                      So in the original. For what Behemoth was going to do (and did) gasoline is more appropriate.
                      1. +1
                        19 2021 June
                        Alas, I haven't read it. crying
                      2. +3
                        19 2021 June
                        Come on ... If you really haven't read it, then it needs to be done urgently. Rare book. good

                        The illustrations are very difficult to make, this artist has the most acceptable moods, and the film is simply impossible to stage.
                      3. +1
                        19 2021 June
                        Only "Heart of a Dog". "Masters ..." tried, but couldn't. I was young. And now it does not pull. request
                      4. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        And now it does not pull.

                        In vain. But it's the master's business
                      5. +1
                        19 2021 June
                        I read articles on VO. In the sections "History", "Armament". Sometimes in other sections feel
            2. +4
              19 2021 June
              Good afternoon Lyudmila!
              Three-line rifle only ours! And only for us it was good.
              And you can find fault with the "brainchilds" of Mannlicher, Mauser, Lee and Anfield. Lewis and Browning.
              The French probably do not disassemble "by cogs" the adoption of Lebel's products. And it is very "controversial" for us. And the store is tubular under the barrel and loading one cartridge each.
              We fought four wars with one Mosinka, and they added Berthier and MAS36 to the Lebel.
              1. +5
                19 2021 June
                and they added Berthier and MAS36 to the Lebel.

                And is it really bad when weapons are being improved and new and better ones come to replace the old. And Mosinka is not only ours, there is a Nagant store on it and not S.I. Mosin is to blame for this. And with us with the "three-line" in the Second World War, they did not run from a good life, SVT-40 did not go very well with us because of the complexity of the service and the illiteracy of the bulk of the peasant mass of soldiers. And the Germans armed the snipers of the elite SS units with Tokarevkoy, and our sailors, technically competent guys, preferred the SVT-40 to the "three-line".
                1. +2
                  19 2021 June
                  It's good when there is a 100 percent change. Not a "supplier's headache". In terms of ammunition and spare parts. The French did not replace all their Great War rifles with the MAS36.
                  The British also stayed with their lovely Lee-Anfield. And the Americans did not give up their Springfields either. At the time the United States entered the war, its Garand army was 50 percent. The other 50 are Sprinfields.
                  The Germans themselves inundated themselves with several samples of self-loading, but for a long time they were brought into a working condition. And they ended up with a shortage of small arms.
                2. +3
                  19 2021 June
                  "technically competent guys" here is not all unambiguous. My grandfather was in the Marine Corps, defended Sevastopol, he scolded "Svetka" and at the first opportunity he changed it to a three-line.
                  1. +5
                    19 2021 June
                    People are all different.
                    "One loves watermelon, another pork cartilage." (C)
                  2. +2
                    19 2021 June
                    During the Finnish campaign, many sinned on SVT. The rifles fired a couple of shots and the automatics stopped working. It turned out they were oiled for the warm season. And the quartermasters did not know about winter lubrication. It is oil and gun oil.
                    How American anti-aircraft guns froze near Murmansk. The lubrication of the drives thickened and that's it. The guns don't move. Everybody screams. The answer is - Murmansk port is not freezing, how did they manage to freeze the guns.?
                    The port is not freezing, but the guns were on the hills around the port and the city, and there was frost. They took off the grease, spilled it with a "spindle" and every 30 minutes checked all the mechanisms for turning and aiming the guns.
              2. +5
                19 2021 June
                Colleague, your own - it is always better, because the weapon is made not only for the task, but also for the mentality. Weapons evoke enduring affection and love. It is difficult to part with him, as with your beloved cat or your beloved dog. It, as a part of a person, gets along with him)))
                1. +4
                  19 2021 June
                  I agree. But forever stroking the "great-grandfather's musket" is also not worth it. It is necessary to invent and design something new and "soothing" for different "friends-comrades" who are not comrades to us at all!
                2. +4
                  19 2021 June
                  Weapons evoke enduring affection and love.

                  Yeah, because of drug addiction. drinks
                3. +6
                  19 2021 June
                  Quote: depressant
                  Weapons evoke enduring affection and love. It is difficult to part with him, as with your beloved cat or your beloved dog. It, as a part of a person, gets along with him)))

                  Hello Lyudmila Yakovlevna - "we are cutting out the dog" and we are hanging a phrase in a frame on the wall !!!
                  If in our peasants, there is something of "plushkin" in each of them in a secluded place "rusty, crooked, old-old" is completely unnecessary but warming the heart "nail" and sometimes not one !!! Once I personally watched - how the father-in-law "inspected" the garbage bags after the mother-in-law's next attempt to clean up his fishing gear!
                  love
                  1. +4
                    19 2021 June
                    Yes, I myself am Plyushkin! And it always has been. A lot of gizmos ... Here are two checkered trunks with cassettes of old films, new in the 90s (and I thought that he, such a trunk, I have one!). They say that they have already died, but I cannot throw it away. Although they take up space in the pantry. And St. Peter himself ordered to keep the fishing accessories))))
            3. +5
              19 2021 June
              Don't demonize me.
              1. +4
                19 2021 June
                "Sad Demon, the spirit of exile, Flying over the sinful land" (c)
                1. +3
                  19 2021 June
                  Or maybe a light spleen is a common property of Petersburgers? Forever gloomy sky, Baltic wind, strange white nights ... crying wassat )))
                  1. +3
                    19 2021 June
                    I don’t know, I’ve been to St. Petersburg and the city didn’t put pressure on me, it’s too beautiful for that. And the weather ... and figs with her, with the weather! drinks
                    1. +4
                      19 2021 June
                      St. Petersburg is yes ... the Imperial city! The owner would be good there. Wandering along Zen, I find dilapidated old nooks, restore which is a wondrous beauty! Ah, life ...
              2. +3
                19 2021 June
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Don't demonize me.

                Hello Antonische !!!

                Instead of a smiley !!! drinks
          4. +3
            19 2021 June
            They accused me of trying to holivar. So I won't. Especially on a three-inch ...
          5. +1
            19 2021 June
            "forgetting about a three-line rifle" is not so simple with a three-line rifle. V.O told about this in detail
            1. +2
              19 2021 June
              What can you say about the mosinka?

              You can't say better than a classic anyway
              Mosinka and Gnesinka - our everything (c)
          6. +3
            19 2021 June
            Have a good trip, Misha, the weather is good these days. smile drinks
          7. +4
            19 2021 June
            Well, here, Anton, the author was shot down by a clique ...
            The author is in the country. I would like to clickbait - I would connect the mobile Internet.
            1. +3
              19 2021 June
              I take conversations aside.
              The effect is instant.
              On weekends and large families - discounts.
              1. +2
                19 2021 June
                LLC "Bazhin and Korotkov"
          8. +2
            19 2021 June
            The Silver Age, of course, can be abused.
            And the flourishing of Russian science - for what?
        4. +2
          19 2021 June
          There is no such goal. I have laughing
      2. +2
        19 2021 June
        Quote: Thick
        Well, there is no prophet in the Fatherland.

        Greetings Borisych, there is no way!
    2. +2
      19 2021 June
      Information for crystal bakers.

      Information for mmaxx: dear you are lost - this is the "weapons" section. Here they crunch not with rolls, but with locks. Srach, usually in other sections Yes
      1. +1
        20 2021 June
        I can also talk about weapons. I posed a simple question. In all elections, small arms, artillery, and the other then was not immediately available to foreigners. Nagant at that time was already outdated. And the excuses for saving cartridges are just an excuse for their own inertia and limitations.
        It's just that now and here it was customary to call those times `` croutons ''. Because there are people who believe that everything was great, and the Bolsheviks ruined everything.
        It was the Bolsheviks who, with the ruined industry, were able to create pistols and machine guns and self-loading. The artillery was somehow its own. Let it take into account the advanced foreign designs. This is normal. And people were found.
        Which once again proves the wretchedness of the economic and military policy of tsarist Russia.
        I didn’t want to start talking about politics at all. But the Nagant revolver is a vivid example of wretchedness. Even though it became legendary. There was simply no other.
    3. +1
      20 2021 June
      So the "damned Bolsheviks" were financed from the same source as the "crystal bakers".
      Horseradish radish is not sweeter ...
      1. 0
        20 2021 June
        I would say on the resources of the same country. Moreover, the Bolsheviks got the ruined economy.
    4. 0
      20 2021 June
      Quote: mmaxx
      And as the damned Bolsheviks found out, there was an abundance of brains in Russia.

      Well, well ... Therefore, Maxim was stamped with a line for how many years and even fought with him in Damansky
      There is never an excess of brains ...
      1. 0
        20 2021 June
        Someone does not have ...
        And what about Maxim ... He retired due to the severity. It was impossible in modern war to quickly change position. And the Chinese weren't playing modern war. Maxim for them - the very thing. A million rounds a day and just add water. In such a war, it is much better than a PC or anything.
        Any other enemies would have shipped a couple of dozen mines and that's it.
        And it's not about the brains. And in the capabilities of the industry. Do you have any complaints about Soviet industry in the war? I do not have.
        1. 0
          20 2021 June
          Quote: mmaxx
          Do you have any complaints about Soviet industry in the war? I do not have.

          But the GKO and Drug Addicts had a shaft of claims. And this shaft is documented, alas ..

          And I have a slight freaking out - from how, by the end of the war, the industry happily reported about decline in marriage armor steel up to 52%!!
          That is - either guessed (!!!) with the composition or not ... Half(!!!!!!!) produced - down the drain! !!! !!!
          And judging by the articles on the composition of the armor recently on the VO - so quite this marriage was allowed on the tanks and was not soared. And then suddenly the plan will not be fulfilled and the award will not be given .. And the fact that under this type (!!!) armor the tankers were burning - so from the factories it is not visible, yeah ...

          Why is there armor ...
          There was an ambush everywhere. ... ...
          In the entire history of the USSR, a diesel passenger car was never made - and after all, the UAZ was shouting straight - diesel !!! The most that for an army all-terrain vehicle - could you do it in 60 years of the history of the car? Schaz ...
          Diesel is 100 years old - and we never had it and we still don't have it ...

          Who interfered with the use of German pistols and cartridges after the war as the basis for their new? No one would say a word against ... No, damn it, we have smoothed Makarov and have been running around with him for 60 years - and uncomfortable, and outdated, and this and that and It's a pity to throw it out - they stamped a lot ...
          1. 0
            20 2021 June
            All this is the history of that war. People and organizations of that time could have such claims. Do you personally have any complaints?
            To factories taken out several thousand kilometers away with a lack of equipment and materials, To children and women at the machines for 12 hours a shift or until the task is completed? Or do you think that damned bunglers and drunks were sitting there and spoiling the armor or something else? If some component was not brought to the plant, do you think they will remove the plan for the tanks from you? Have you read this about Germany? in 44th, 45th? They are Teutonic geniuses. And comrade Stalin at this time, some comrade. Did Molotov give diamonds to Parisian whores?
            Or so, be smart about your knowledge of history? No one has ever worked for the war like that. Therefore, NONE OF PRESENT PEOPLE has the right to any claims. These are the conditions of a war of annihilation.
            No conditions of the Russian Empire of the XIX-XX centuries. you cannot compare with this.
            And Makar will go to the army even now. For nafig does not need a pistol in battle, except to shoot himself or shoot a coward. Any officer, wherever they shoot, will take a submachine gun. And in peacetime, no matter what to shoot in the shooting range.
            1. 0
              20 2021 June
              Quote: mmaxx
              To factories taken out several thousand kilometers away with a lack of equipment and materials, To children and women at the machines for 12 hours a shift or until the task is completed? Or do you think that damned bunglers and drunks were sitting there and spoiling the armor or something else?

              Quote: mmaxx
              These are the conditions of a war of annihilation.

              You didn’t understand, apparently ... The metallurgists didn’t take anything anywhere - you cannot physically transport a blast furnace, you can build it, but you don’t take it away.
              So it was the metallurgists who drove the marriage, and then these defective raw materials went to the tanks. And yes, the men worked there - there were no women and children .. It's not on a lathe to sharpen the hulls
              And I have a complaint to those men - because 2 brothers, father and grandfather, burned down in tanks. Due to the fact that someone somewhere overfulfilled the plan or was tired or did not finish it ..

              Quote: mmaxx
              No one has ever worked for the war like that.
              and after the war, huh?
              Is Makarov also a war of annihilation? Was the German patron weak to take?
              Diesel on UAZ - also the war prevented?
            2. +1
              22 2021 June
              A specialist with "armor" to let go to the front is on the state? And then to drive products that are not entirely of high quality because of unskilled labor - is it according to the state?
  7. +5
    19 2021 June
    Anri Piper rifle with a "rolling block" bolt

    This rifle is everywhere referred to as the Henri Pieper caliber .32. System with falling block - with a wedge gate. And although this is not a classic falling block with a vertical wedge movement, it is still worth agreeing that this is not a rolling-block, since this rolling-block is absent in the shutter.
    Henri Pieper also had a rolling-block rifle.

    This is a seven-barreled Piper salvo rifle with a rolling-block bolt. Available in .22 and .32 calibers. Intended for hunting. As conceived by the designer, a volley of seven trunks simultaneously at a flock of geese or ducks was to be very effective. This hunting mitralese has not gained popularity among hunters, but today it is popular with collectors.
    1. +3
      19 2021 June
      Interestingly, the organisms that had minus the comment could have voiced something intelligible on this issue? Identify yourself purely for sporting interest. Or manic-depressive state does not allow?
      1. 0
        19 2021 June
        Viktor Nikolaevich, they never sound! They appear like shadows and disappear just like that. I got used already. How to inevitable evil))))
        1. 0
          19 2021 June
          Tellingly, earlier, under Shpakovsky's articles on weapons, the Black Sea naval objects were completely absent. One could calmly communicate with adequate interlocutors, exchange information, argue.
          Now the habitat of the above category is constantly expanding. In the sections "News", "Opinions", "Analytics" they are already cramped.
          I increasingly come back to the idea of ​​a paid section on the site, where the passage to parts of the material support will be tightly closed.
          Perhaps the administration will somehow think about this option.
          1. +1
            19 2021 June
            I can roughly imagine who you are talking about, but to make a paid site? That is, by subscription? But the objects you are talking about are registered on the site and will simply subscribe, no matter how much it costs.
            1. 0
              19 2021 June
              There are most of all lumpen there, both materially and intellectually.
              Moreover, I do not speak for the entire site, I mean some kind of section where normal people would be protected from communication with hamsters and from their aggression.
              You can establish some sort of selection system, let not finance or not only finance, let there be an IQ test, for example.
              1. +8
                19 2021 June
                Well, it turns out that I have an IQ = 50, and what, stay with the lumpen? wassat )))
                No, Viktor Nikolaevich, that won't work. We are all equal before the forum. There are no rich and poor, stupid and smart here. There are only poor and intelligent statements, as well as stupid and clever arguments. And then there are people - they are all ours. Their elusive stupid sabotage must be tolerated, and sabotage, manifested in the form of not quite clever statements, either silently minus, or explain that it is not necessary to say that. Yes, we are not an educational institution. But depending on patience and spiritual qualities, sometimes it is necessary to show tact and correct a person. I agree, there are pathological cases of stupidity. So what to do? Especially if there is no formal reason to remove a person from the site. You will not demand the eviction of your neighbor in the stairwell, who does not hurt you without crime? Although this can lead to a heart attack. This is called civilization wassat ))))))))
                1. +5
                  19 2021 June
                  Their elusive stupid sabotage must be tolerated, and sabotage, manifested in the form of not entirely clever statements, either silently minus, or explain that it is not necessary to say that.

                  I never thought that you are an adherent of Tolstoyism.
                  1. +5
                    19 2021 June
                    Adept? Oh no! I am a person who sees the limits of the possible. And if you do not see them, then you can painfully run into these frames, causing irreparable harm to yourself. This does not mean putting up with the circumstances. It means not putting up with your own laziness and suppressing the snobbery of an educated person. That is, sacrifice some of your mental comfort.
                    1. +1
                      19 2021 June
                      There are many moments in life when one has to sacrifice mental comfort, especially for the sake of loved ones.
                      But Lemmings can only be listed among the Dukhobor Tolstoyans on the list of applicants for spiritual comfort.
                  2. +2
                    19 2021 June
                    Moreover, my favorite writer turned out, alas, to be helpless and harmful as a guide.
                2. +6
                  19 2021 June
                  This is the first step from communication planning to family planning.
                  1. +5
                    19 2021 June
                    A connoisseur, however! wassat

                    Studied the system? Or jumped onto the frames?
                    1. +3
                      19 2021 June
                      Probably, the systematic approach is interesting to me. Although the book von Bertalanffy never read to the end.
                      1. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        My God! How many books I have not read to the end! You start reading ... No, this is not about my mental garden. Or everything that the recognized great said, I know from the practice of life, new - nothing. I read only that where the clearly felt high artistry of the word and the corresponding ligature of collisions. Russians in Russian.
                      2. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        Usually I got used to reading to the end. But fiction is easier. And the road still allows you to read.
                      3. +3
                        19 2021 June
                        I tried to read modern authors about the way to improve a person through spiritual practices, a plurality of roads. Foreign authors and their own. And what? Immediately I discovered the peeping ears of a naive Kabbalah wassat )))
                      4. +3
                        19 2021 June
                        Didn't start.
                        I read Norbekov's book up to half.
                        The primary source is probably Sufism.
                      5. +3
                        19 2021 June
                        The whole meaning of Kabbalah is reduced to a simple one. Do you want to be rich and happy? Do not do evil, love people, communicate, help, in short, fill yourself with light, like a vessel.
                        An example is given in the interpretations: if you fill a glass of ice with dirty water, it will freeze, and you are a lump of dirt, visible to everyone through the ice shell. If you fill it with clean water, then you are pure. So fill yourself with light! Famously. One that fills itself with light is easy to wrap around. A teaching for the naive. For nothing is said about defense.
                      6. +2
                        19 2021 June
                        I'm not ready to speak competently, but even from the reflected light it is clear that not everything is so simple.

                        Feuchtfanger now insistently reminds: "Jew Süss".

                        The Old Testament says: "An eye for an eye."
                        New Testament: "Love your neighbor."
  8. +7
    19 2021 June
    Good morning everyone! hi
    Thanks to Vyacheslav for the excellent article, everything was read easily and with great interest. good
    A couple of photographs "to the heap".
    Everything is clear here.))

    And this is the same "Mexican" carbine.
  9. +6
    19 2021 June
    The muzzle velocity of a bullet when exiting from a pistol of the same Pieper was unlikely to be higher than 300 m / s. It was enough to stop a horse or punch a board. In this sense, there was no difference from the Nagant pistol. And, oddly enough, the muzzle velocity of the bullet is still kept within the range of 300 - 500 m / s. Modern service weapons are just that. But in "unofficial" cases, there are exceptions. For example, the use of .454 Casull cartridges, developed back in 1957. Such cartridges give the bullet muzzle energy up to 2,7 thousand joules, accelerating the projectile to 600 m / s at the exit from the cut.
    1. +5
      19 2021 June
      The muzzle velocity of a bullet when exiting from a pistol of the same Pieper was unlikely to be higher than 300 m / s.

      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, if you mean Henri Piper, he did not create a single pistol.
      The pistols are already his son Nicholas. And among the pistols, to which he had a hand, there are those whose muzzle velocity is higher than 300 m / s.
      1. +5
        19 2021 June
        Victor Nikolaevich, so many small modifications! And they all change the properties of the weapon. It is necessary to make the departure speed more, well, change the length of the barrel. Slightly longer, and the speed of exit from the muzzle immediately increases. At the same time, the exit speed is not the highest. The maximum is recruited further, and then at the end - a decrease. All of this is adjustable.
        1. +4
          19 2021 June
          In general terms, I am familiar with the basics of internal and external ballistics. I'm talking about a specific sample.
          1. +4
            19 2021 June
            Well, the barrel is long enough. There, the bullets were also modified. It's all complicated, empiricism. On the one hand, the less the mass of the bullet, the greater its initial velocity with a constant barrel length. On the other hand, the higher the pressure of the powder gases, the higher the initial velocity. They worked mainly on gunpowder, on increasing the kinetic energy transferred to the bullet. It was not worth making it heavier. They even drove a bullet into a cartridge entirely. This increased the pressure, hence the speed.
            1. +3
              19 2021 June
              Lyudmila Yakovlevna, I'm a little lost - are we discussing Piper or the design of small arms cartridges?
              1. +2
                19 2021 June
                Yes, in different ways. There are weapons. You cannot change it, it is accepted and that's it. For the task, they begin to select cartridges from the available ones. The designers, again, do not sleep, they begin to invent cartridges.
                1. +2
                  19 2021 June
                  There are weapons. You cannot change it, it is accepted and that's it. For the task, they begin to select cartridges from the available ones.

                  Nothing good will come of it.
                  1. 0
                    19 2021 June
                    In fact, it is. This is if we talk only about service pistols. Indeed, the developers have already struck the perfect balance between all the variables that accelerate the bullet. Service pistols for a long time will be content with its initial speed in the range of 300-500 m / s. Since the service ones in this case best of all correspond to the requirements imposed on them.
      2. 0
        19 2021 June
        And in the Beetle's handbook 1992, this pistol (Fig. 31-24) is indicated as, of German origin under a license of 1907. under the patron of Bergman and called Bergman `` Bayard '', 1908.
        1. +3
          19 2021 June
          The Beetle Handbook is not a canon edition.
          I have written
          And among the pistols to which he put his hand

          This pistol was not developed by Nicholas Pieper, he "put his hand" to it.
          Photo Bergmann / Pieper Model 1908.
        2. +1
          22 2021 June
          There is no need to sin on A.B. Beetle. The pistol with the specified number is considered in the Section Belgium under the name Bergman, Bayard 1908 Theodord Bergman who created his pistol "Mars" caliber 9,8 mm in 1897 In 1905 he received a contract for a 9 mm pistol for the Spanish army, but not managed to fulfill it for various reasons. In 1907, the contract and the license for the production of the pistol were transferred to the firm "Ancienne Etablisman Pieper" in Liege. N. Pieper made some changes to the design of the pistol and this modification, called "Bergman Bayard" in 1908, was delivered to the Spanish army.
  10. +5
    19 2021 June
    As an alternative, I am curious if the commission would have preferred Pieper's revolver, would there have been critics today who said that instead of a proven, simple and technologically advanced revolver, they adopted some incomprehensible device with dubious improvements?
    laughing
    1. +1
      19 2021 June
      Unlikely. The revolver by that time was a well-oiled thing. Basically, all + are the same.
  11. +6
    19 2021 June
    Here, they criticize the revolver, they say, they say the piper would be better, it was necessary to take the piper. Probably. Bad, they say, revolver.
    But such disadvantages of the revolver, such as the alternate extraction of the casings and the caliber too small for a good stopping effect, were laid in this weapon by the requirements of the competition, which Leon Nagan had to fulfill.
    So what caused these demands?
    The commission stated, they say, the caliber of 7,62 mm, the number, direction, profile of the rifling of the barrel must coincide with those of the three-line Mosin rifle, then in the manufacture of revolvers it will be possible to use defective rifle barrels - for reasons of economy!
    However, this is not all and not the main thing.
    Throughout the second half of the 19th century, all manufacturers tried to reduce the caliber of army weapons - any - both rifles and revolvers, which gave a significant gain in the weight of the weapon and, most importantly, in the amount of ammunition wearable. Along the way, we note that the reduction in caliber became possible after the invention of powerful smokeless powder. And so everyone rushed to use it.
    But the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century was a relatively peaceful period in history, the gunsmiths did not have enough combat experience to bring the properties of the weapons being developed to the golden mean: both the weapon should be light, and the bullet should be lethal. The concept of the stopping action of a bullet during this period was still very vague and not understood from the point of view of mathematics and biology. Is that what it means to "stop the horse"? Death, wounded, or so that she shied away from fright and threw off the cavalryman? And the wounded enemy? How capable is he of resisting after being wounded?
    Only the United States and Great Britain had extensive experience in the use of weapons of different calibers by this period. It was they who retained the large caliber of their revolvers for the 1st World War. Other countries did not have such experience, and Russia followed the general fashion of weapons and therefore, having Smith and Wesson, also wanted a revolver, which became the main one for the reasons indicated above. As for the dispute between the revolver and the piper, we would accept the piper, and we would criticize the piper for its small caliber, without remembering the advantages of reloading)))
    1. +6
      19 2021 June
      If you look at the cartridge, it is not so weak at that time - it was designed for smokeless gunpowder. At the time of the adoption of the Nagant in the United States, there was an army cartridge 38LC, it is weaker than the Nagan one, in France 8 * 27R, it is also weaker, the Germans had an ancient Reich revolver, etc. And the same British after WW1 switched to the .380 cartridge - an analogue of the 38sw, it is also weaker than the Nagan one. Yes, due to problems with production, some of the cartridges were on black powder, but for example the French suffered the same problems.
      1. +2
        19 2021 June
        ps In 1898, in neighboring Austria-Hungary, a Rast Gasser M1898 revolver was adopted under its 8mm cartridge, similar in power to the French one. Like our Nagant, it is with alternate loading except that it has 8 rounds. And the Italians had a Bodeo 1889, although with a larger caliber (10,35), but comparable in power, alternately loaded with 6 rounds in the drum. So, almost all European empires passed through revolvers of similar power, it's just that our revolver was somewhat delayed due to political reasons (if it hadn't been for civil and devastation after it, it would have been removed from service in the mid-20s, like similar revolvers in other countries, and we remembered if only the reenactors of the First World War and historians were about him).
        1. +1
          19 2021 June
          Hope V.O. will talk about these revolvers
    2. Fat
      +4
      19 2021 June
      Oh, Lyudmila, as always, you see at the root
      Sometimes too ... Okopno.
      One way or another, the competition has been won for years by a revolver capable of lying around ready for battle ... Anywhere ..
      1. +3
        19 2021 June
        Well, what can you do, Andrei Borisovich, I myself am trench directness)))
        In this regard, I ask directly and in a trench: am I dignifying you correctly? I mean by name and patronymic? And then, the hour is uneven, I made a mistake and I will continue to make mistakes further))))
    3. +4
      19 2021 June
      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, in general, you think correctly, but about a large caliber. All the same, despite the PMA, Europe remained committed to the small caliber. Although if we recall: Browning, Walter, Luger, they began to introduce the 9mm caliber even before WWII.
  12. +1
    19 2021 June
    Good day. Vyacheslav Olegovich, you found a good epigraph and I even looked for: "rubber pads" in the upper picture.
    Please tell me who is this author?
  13. +3
    19 2021 June
    Q. Oh, thank you for keeping your word. They promised about the Nagant and provided revolvers of his era. The truth is in a different sequence than expected. I thought: the first will be Nagan, and then his "peers".
    At the same time, if you think about it, it is correct why the first Pieper: Leon borrowed a lot from Pieper. Hence the question: Pieper did not try to "emerge" that Leon "pioneered" a lot from Bayard?
    1. +1
      22 2021 June
      The fact is that it was not Pieper who invented pushing the drum over the barrel to avoid gas leakage when fired. This solution was used in Collier's revolver in 1818. And there was a patent for this solution. But time passes, much is forgotten, patents expire and technical solutions appear again. Due to the loss of gas pressure in the barrel due to its leakage, apparently, they switched to more powerful cartridges and larger calibers, heavier bullets. In the arms industry, patents and their protection were a headache in the 19th century. And at the beginning of the 20th in Europe and America.
      1. 0
        23 2021 June
        I have not heard about this
  14. +2
    19 2021 June
    "at the age of only 57" died early. Even for the beginning of the 20th century, the age is not the most "critical". He could create many more
    1. +2
      19 2021 June
      Quote: Astra wild2
      "at the age of only 57" died early. Even for the beginning of the 20th century, the age is not the most "critical". He could create many more

      She (the lady with the scythe), in principle, does not ask our brother - she comes at the wrong time, uninvited and unexpectedly.
      hi
      1. Fat
        +1
        20 2021 June
        Oh yeah ... Better to die at 40 from indigestion than 115 from dementia.
        They say the Lord takes the best.
        I really hope that God's providence is timely ..
        1. +1
          20 2021 June
          I agree with the third line.
          What's the best? What is there to try on.
          Not all completed yet.
          The able-bodied Goethe is an example.
  15. +1
    19 2021 June
    Quote: hohol95
    But they were proud of the growth in wheat exports, forgetting that the Balkan region was selling it more than RI.


    Well, here some people have only one answer - "your numbers are impudent lies of the Jews, and the legitimate princesses of the Romanovs' house are saints right away and do not poop"
  16. +2
    19 2021 June
    This is normal. In our army, an ordinary tablespoon can replace everything else - a tea spoon, a fork, a knife and a bottle opener. If you wish, you can make scissors (of two).
  17. +3
    19 2021 June
    Anri Piper rifle with a "rolling block" bolt

    Where the author saw the "rolling block" shutter, if there is a wedge locking.
  18. +1
    20 2021 June
    Out of 6 scientists - 5 recognized the game "Russian Roulette" as not dangerous at all.
    1. +2
      20 2021 June
      Quote: Zaurbek
      Out of 6 scientists - 5 recognized the game "Russian Roulette" as not dangerous at all.

      Uh-huh. We play until the first shot - the first scientist-philosopher said aloud, holding out a revolver with a full drum to his colleague mathematician, who was broadcasting to the rest of his comrades about the theory of probability. The philosopher thought to himself with regret that he was in vain to skip the pairs of "higher mathematics" in the first year, the chuyka suggested that there are other ways to win the argument.
  19. -1
    20 2021 June
    I am wildly sorry, but explain to me please, to the sofa expert, what is the revolver obsolete at that time, objectively in numbers? reloading and single action are the stupidity of old generals, this was enough abroad. Colts and others demanded a better fit of the barrel and drum chamber alignment. and had losses in the drum-barrel gap. would now compare on equal terms Pieper and Nagant for reliability, accuracy, manufacturability.

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"