Military Review

Plumber's submachine gun. E.M.R. 44 by Erma

150

Submachine gun E.M.R. 44, model from the game Call of Duty: WWII


In the second half of World War II, after the defeat at Stalingrad, when many in Germany realized that victory in the war could only be won by a miracle, the country began to develop the most simplified models of small arms. weapons... Erma Maschinenpistole, founded in 1922, was also involved in this work. Fortunately, the company's experience and best practices in this area were enormous. Back in 1931, Erma bought all the rights to submachine guns designed by Heinrich Volmer.

How the idea for a simplified submachine gun was born


At the turn of 1942-1943, German industry was tasked with developing a new submachine gun that would be much simpler than the mass-produced MP 38/40 models. And the question here was not the quality of the available models, which remained very good, but the desire to produce as many weapons as possible, as simple and cheap as possible. Here Germany reoriented itself to the countries with which it fought and which even earlier switched to the following production model: the cheaper and more, the better.

After the defeat at Stalingrad in Germany, the economy was finally transferred to total war, while the country's resources were limited, and the military power of the allies and industry of the USSR, the USA and Great Britain only grew. Under these conditions, Berlin needed more and more simple weapons that could be produced quickly, cheaply and with the involvement of low-skilled labor.

In addition to the very course of the war, which was unsuccessful for the Germans, they saw what kind of weapons the allies were massively producing. The British STEN submachine gun and the American M3 “shooting oil can” did not give the impression of efficient and technologically advanced small arms, but they coped with their task in battle. An even greater influence on the Germans was exerted by Soviet developments in this area.

German soldiers willingly used Soviet captured Shpagin and Sudaev submachine guns. Shpagin's submachine gun, the famous PPSh-41, was put into service in December 1940. The model was distinguished by the presence of simple body parts and a simple technical device. During the war, the production of this model was managed in mass quantities even in small artels and workshops with the involvement of unskilled labor.

Plumber's submachine gun. E.M.R. 44 by Erma
Submachine gun E.M.R. 44, appearance

To assemble the PPSh, it took about 5,6 machine-hours, for the PPS submachine gun that appeared during the war years, which was adopted in 1942, this figure was completely reduced to 2,7 machine-hours. The all-metal submachine gun of Sudaev did not have a wooden butt and was equipped with a simplified reclining shoulder rest. Submachine guns have become a truly massive weapon in the USSR, however, this did not happen from a good life.

Although the German submachine guns were distinguished by higher accuracy and workmanship, in close combat they all lost to the PPSh with a 71 round drum magazine. At the same time, just over a million MP 38/40 submachine guns were manufactured in Germany by the end of the war. PPSh-41 in the USSR, about 6 million units were produced.

Against this background, the Germans needed the most easy-to-manufacture submachine gun that could be mass-produced. And such a model could be E.M.R. 44 designed by Erma. The model did not go into mass production, but its mark in stories left.

Features of the submachine gun E.M.R. 44


Submachine gun E.M.R. 44 went as a trophy to the American military, who reached the city of Erfurt by April 12, 1945, where the Erma plant was located. With numerous trophies, the model made it to the United States, where it even took part in tests. This model of small arms did not arouse any interest among the Americans, since the German submachine gun did not have obvious advantages over the models of automatic weapons already existing in the West.

The submachine gun captured by the Americans was manufactured in February 1943. Most likely, its development began at the end of 1942 or at the very beginning of 1943. Judging by the appearance of the model, it was an attempt to create a weapon much simpler than the MP 40 produced at that time. In the same 1943, Erma completely discontinued the production of the MP 40 model, switching to the assembly of full-fledged assault rifles. At the company's factory until the end of the war, the assault rifle, known as the StG 44, will be assembled.


Experienced submachine gun E.M.R. 44 remained just an experiment to create, in fact, an ersatz weapon. Externally, the weapon consisted of pipes that were roughly welded together. This was the reason for numerous post-war jokes and comparisons, today on the Internet this sample of small arms is called a shooting pipe or a plumber's dream. Outwardly, the weapon turned out to be really extremely unpresentable.

A barrel shroud of the same diameter is attached to the tubular receiver of the submachine gun in front. The casing has four rows of slotted windows designed to cool the barrel. The outward appearance of the model shows that the developers from Erfurt were trying to create a model in the production of which only non-scarce materials would be used, and the processing was carried out on universal machine tools and press-stamping equipment.

At the same time, the designers definitely summarized all the many years of experience in the production and use of the MP 38 and MP 40 submachine guns in a combat situation, creating a very simple and cheap weapon for the same 9x19 mm Parabellum pistol cartridge. It was planned to increase the volume of output precisely at the expense of production from available materials, as well as on any available industrial equipment.

It is not known why there were so many pipes in the structure, but the fact remains. The body of the bolt box, barrel casing and butt of the experimental model were made of welded steel pipes, and the pistol grip and tubular shoulder rest were made of light alloys. On the barrel cover there was a simplified compensator, which in its type resembled the Soviet one from the PPS-43 submachine gun. At the same time, the moving parts of the weapon's automation (reciprocating combat spring, bolt) were similar in system to those used in the MP-40.

The trigger mechanism E.M.R. 44 was simplified and did not have a fire mode translator. The submachine gun was designed only for automatic fire. But with the power supply system of the novelty, things were much more interesting. The designers presented a model with a dual magazine receiver. The submachine gun used two box magazines for 32 rounds at once, similar to those in the MP-40. Apparently, in this way the Germans hoped to bring the model's firepower closer to the PPSh-41, without designing new stores with a larger capacity.


MP-40 and magazines with cartridges for it

Since the butt (shoulder rest) on this model was located on the same axis with the barrel of the weapon, the sights were raised quite high. Sights consisted of a front sight with a front sight and a sight with three strips. The constant was designed for shooting at a distance of 100 meters, and two cross-over - at 200 and 300 meters, respectively. At the same time, the declared effective firing range in some sources indicates less than 200 meters. The maximum rate of fire is 500 rounds per minute.

About the overall dimensions of E.M.R. 44 little is known. The maximum length of the new submachine gun was, apparently, 720 mm, barrel length - 250 mm. By simplifying the design, the weight of the model was reduced. Without shops E.M.R. 44 weighed 3,66 kg. It was 300 grams less than the MP-40 submachine gun and immediately 800 grams lighter than its predecessor, the MP-38. True, during combat operation, the weight of the two equipped magazines was added to the weight of the model, and this is another plus 1,35 kg. In this situation, E.M.R. 44 approached the PPSh-41, which weighed 5,3 kg with an equipped drum magazine.

The fate of the model E.M.R. 44


It is believed that the tests of the E.M.R. 44 did not make much of an impression on the German military. Some sources say that the model has not passed acceptance tests. At the same time, it is known that the model with a dual magazine receiver - MP 40 / I, which was mass-produced, turned out to be unsuccessful. The German military scolded this model for the unreliability of the design and the increased weight of the weapon. It is unlikely that E.M.R. 44 would be much more reliable in this regard.

Another reason why E.M.R. 44 never began to be produced even in small batches, they call the transition to the concept of an assault rifle. The first German full-fledged machine guns MP 43, MP 44, later renamed STG 44, were supposed to replace in the troops not only part of the MP 40, but also the Karabiner 98k rifle. The plant in Erfurt was simply loaded with the release of this model.
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 18: 15
    +6
    The British STEN submachine gun and the American M3 “shooting oil can” did not give the impression of efficient and technologically advanced small arms, but they coped with their task in battle. An even greater influence on the Germans was exerted by Soviet developments in this area.
    Well, still, at least 8 out of 10 German divisions were ground by the Red Army!
  2. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 4 June 2021 18: 18
    +3
    Thank you, but it seems to me that the article is somewhat "bloated" due to the details with PPSh, PPS and other samples. Everyone who is interested in small arms and WW2 already knows about them.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 4 June 2021 18: 48
      +11
      Igor, hello! hi
      It is not entirely clear why the author cites the PPSh disk store as an example, attributing to it very dubious advantages over the sector one.
      ... in close combat, they all lost the PPSh with a 71 round drum magazine.

      They lost so much that in the middle of the war, ours decided to release a new sector magazine for the PPSh for 35 rounds, as if there were no other tasks. I will not describe here all the shortcomings of this disc from "Suomi", I believe that everyone knows them anyway.
      In short, the author here brought out a very dubious "advantage" of the PPSh with a disk magazine.
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 4 June 2021 20: 06
        +5
        Greetings. Interestingly, and the author knows that the quality of the stores for the PCA was so low that they were selected for each INDIVIDUALLY (!), Two per barrel?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 4 June 2021 20: 14
          +5
          This is you, of course, about disk, yes, he hardly knows, otherwise he would not have written deliberate nonsense.
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 4 June 2021 20: 54
            +2
            Yes, about them. There is a friend who in the "zero" years served in a unit, "on the balance sheet" of which there were 700 disk stores for the PCA!
            According to his stories, the lower drawers simply "froze" along with the content. But! On the balance sheet were listed. And PPSh - no!)))
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 4 June 2021 21: 03
              +2
              And the PPSh was converted into "hunting carbines" together with the "Maxim" machine gun. To die is not to get up, to say the least.laughing
              1. The leader of the Redskins
                The leader of the Redskins 4 June 2021 21: 19
                +4
                Come on! "Maxim" to ambush "quietly" to pull in, what would the animals shoot? !!!
                Want a story from life?
                My uncle (deceased). He was a military man and a hunter. This took place under the USSR and in Kazakhstan. An old friend, a retiree, calls him:
                - Can't you stab a wild boar? Me neither. Let's shoot?
                No sooner said than done. The uncle takes the little guy, a lot of cartridges and goes to the retiree.
                He brings out the hog ... For two years he fed with Kazakh grain !!!
                In general - "chopper"!
                Three shots in the ear - the hog realizes that he is "not good". For fifteen minutes he smashes the yard, and only then falls dead!)))) laughing
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 4 June 2021 21: 24
                  +3
                  On a boar with a small caliber ?! wassat Well, now it is clear why the Fritzes could not take Moscow! drinks
                  1. Andrey sh
                    Andrey sh 11 June 2021 23: 19
                    0
                    Easy. If you know how to shoot. In the forehead, of course, it will rebound or flatten.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 11 June 2021 23: 22
                      0
                      Do you have a running wild boar in the eye? So if not, then there will be no second chance, the hog will not give. laughing
                      1. Andrey sh
                        Andrey sh 11 June 2021 23: 25
                        0
                        What the hell is a running wild boar that has been fattening for 2 years at home? And the AK-74 is not particularly effective against an angry wild boar in the forest. Due to the weak stopping action of the cartridge, the mortally wounded cleaver has very good chances to lift the submachine gunner, if he did not have time to climb a tree ...
                2. bk0010
                  bk0010 5 June 2021 12: 19
                  +3
                  Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                  Come on! "Maxim" to ambush "quietly" to pull in, what would the animals shoot? !!!
                  https://www.huntworld.ru/catalog/okhota_i_sportivnaya_strelba/okhotniche_oruzhie/nareznye_karabiny/karabin_pulemet_maksim_7_62kh54/
                  Pay attention to the magazine capacity (10 rounds)
                  1. The leader of the Redskins
                    The leader of the Redskins 5 June 2021 12: 22
                    -1
                    Yeah ... Your deeds are wonderful ... I thought the internet friend was joking ... belay
                3. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 June 2021 15: 30
                  +1
                  An acquaintance of mine shot pigs like that. He cannot cut, but from a double-barreled gun into the ear. Maybe not the boars, but he even beat the steams with blanks - in the ear of broads and ready!
        2. vl903
          vl903 4 June 2021 21: 38
          +8
          the quality was SOMETIMES poor due to child labor. the discs were selected because they either played back or did not fit. it would also be with horns until the accuracy was tightened. BUT the disc had an ARGUMENT in a city battle, in a trench, in a forest --- 71 rounds! the Germans felt it the hard way, like ours in Finland. the real disadvantages of the disc are weight, cost, size, high sensitivity to pollution and the inability to equip one cartridge on the go. and it is strange to consider even the Hitlerites who felt the pluses and minuses of weapons in their lives worse than we are modern day-witnesses.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 4 June 2021 21: 45
            -2
            And about how the PPSh began to "spit" without completing the full disc, is it like the Germans also felt on their own skin?
            1. vl903
              vl903 5 June 2021 06: 17
              +2
              watch the video on YouTube from Kalashnikov. planted from the ppsh seems to be about 1000 rounds in a ROW !!!! and he at least that !!! in another video, AK74 was turned into a mellol for 600 shots. there they also tortured the RPD. in general, you are an adult, do not talk nonsense. For this, at that time, the designer and director would not have gotten off with house arrest. Ppps had real disadvantages and everyone knew about them. but when the soldier is in the trench and death is in front of him, he will choose the best weapon, because he has nothing to lose. the Germans took the ppsh themselves, so the machine was worth it.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 5 June 2021 14: 23
                +4
                watch the video on YouTube from Kalashnikov. planted from the ppsh seems to be about 1000 rounds in a ROW !!!! and he at least that !!!

                Uncle Kostya did not watch the videos ... He was holding this weapon in his hands! For such was the work ... request I think it's hard to find a more expert on the site! With respect, Nicholai hi
                the Germans took the ppsh themselves, so the machine was worth it.

                The Germans, in many respects, armed their well-wisher assistants from "our citizens" with this machine. PPShs are seen even among blacks in Africa. I read somewhere that disk magazines did not fit from one machine to another. A piece thing! request
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 June 2021 15: 00
                  +3
                  Nikolay, hi. hi This guy probably watched a German film in which the brave sergeant-major ran around Stalingrad with a PPSh and shot Russians like rabbits. Looked and believed, "sho wono and bulo", there's nothing you can do about it.
                2. vl903
                  vl903 5 June 2021 18: 41
                  +4
                  unfortunately not familiar with Uncle Kostya. I admit that he is a very knowledgeable person. but I can’t believe that the ppsh spat after one disk. how many millions have been released and how many years have they used? Would they use it if they spat after one disc or three horns? we have already written about unsuitable disks a hundred times - the problem was due to the fact that the children could not comply with the tolerances. the problem was not in the design. the knot at the horn was the same. we switched to the horn because it is more convenient and reliable
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 6 June 2021 18: 12
                    +3
                    we switched to the horn because it is more convenient and reliable

                    You yourself answered, if at that difficult time you found the resources to move to a new store, then there were serious reasons for that, and it's not just the children standing at the machine.
                    1. vl903
                      vl903 6 June 2021 18: 34
                      +5
                      I probably cannot clearly express my thoughts. the designer and the customer are trying to squeeze the maximum out of the complex of properties. after the Finnish customer wanted a flurry of fire. Degtyarev objected that the disc had plus-71 rounds but also had a lot of disadvantages. but the customer insisted. the experience of the war allegedly showed that the disadvantages outweighed. returned to the horn. but the allure of the big store was then and remains now. Erma wanted to bypass the disadvantages of the disc but give the soldier 60 rounds. I have been unable to fall asleep for two days now: what does it take to overheat the ppsh after 70 rounds? is the barrel bent? dirty trunk? confusion with calibers TT and Mauser K96 barrel cartridge? wild barrel marriage? production of barrels from used imported barrels? or something else? gunpowder is not that?
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 6 June 2021 19: 06
                        +4
                        Why can't you? In my opinion, everything is clearly stated and I agree with you, but regarding the wishes of the customer - definitely, "Suomi" made an indelible impression on our generals. smile
                        As for the "spitting" of the PPSh, I will not lie, I myself have never planted the entire disc out of it and personally have not seen how it "spits". But, due to my own age, I was lucky to find many fully capable front-line soldiers, from whom I received this information. In my opinion, this is a banal overheating of the barrel, from which, according to the laws of physics, it simply expanded, changing the original caliber to a larger one, and the bullets simply did not reach the enemy.
                        By the way, speaking of barrels, on TT, Nagan and PPSh there were rejected barrels from the production of rifles and machine guns. drinks
                      2. vl903
                        vl903 6 June 2021 19: 50
                        +2
                        I also think that the memoirs and memoirs, although very subjective, but some kind of fundamental principle was still there. maybe if there were defective trunks, then perhaps trunks with a smaller drilling diameter than allowed by the tolerances fell on the manufacture of ppsh. when the disk was planted in a row, the barrel overheated. the diameter of the hole thus decreased and the ppsh spat. in general, quality and production problems during an all-out war. the soldiers were sad
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 6 June 2021 19: 54
                        +1
                        ... the barrel was overheating. the hole diameter decreased in this case


                        The diameter rather increased and the bullet simply fell out. And the soldiers, yes, had no time for fun, and for many other reasons, too.
                      4. vl903
                        vl903 6 June 2021 22: 34
                        +2
                        then marriage of the barrel, production from used barrels. just a worn out barrel, a barrel burned before. apparently added complexity and the rate of fire of the PPSh
                      5. Catfish
                        Catfish 6 June 2021 22: 46
                        0
                        Yes, rate of fire plus high muzzle velocity. About the barrel, I would not say that it is a frank marriage, just the barrel is short and heated up quickly, and the quality of the metal was, of course, not up to par. In general, we had problems with quality everywhere, look what happened to the boilers for the leaders, the commission accepted it from the tenth time, if it did it at all, and this was even before the war.
        3. poquello
          poquello 6 June 2021 14: 51
          +2
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          He held this weapon in his hands!

          Whoa! Berlin took?
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 6 June 2021 18: 15
            +2

            ... Berlin did not take ... laughing
          2. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 6 June 2021 19: 53
            +2
            Whoa! Berlin took?

            No, he didn't have time to take Berlin, but he worked as a restorer of this very weapon. Chat - there are many topics! drinks
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 5 June 2021 14: 56
        +5
        You, dear, continue to watch videos further, it is cognitive and develops imagination. laughing It makes no sense to comment on you, because it is impossible to comment on complete nonsense. request
        1. vl903
          vl903 5 June 2021 22: 11
          +2
          Quote: Sea Cat
          You, dear, continue to watch videos further, it is cognitive and develops imagination. laughing It makes no sense to comment on you, because it is impossible to comment on complete nonsense. request

          OK. initially it was about the fact that the disk has a big plus - 71 rounds before reloading. the Germans liked it. as well as those who drown the drum for the new parking brake from the Kalashnikov.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 5 June 2021 23: 08
            0
            The drum for the new parking brake from Kalashnikov and the disc from PPSh are completely different designs, there are decades between them.
            As for what exactly the Germans liked, I did not hear from the Germans, but from our Urya-patriots almost every day.
            This is about the same as at one time they liked to write that the Yankees in Vietnam threw out their M-16s and armed themselves with captured AKs, forgetting to add that this was done by their reconnaissance groups, "walking" in the Viet Cong in the rear and solely based on captured ammunition.
            Ours in the Patriotic War did the same, this is a worldwide practice.
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 5 June 2021 23: 46
              +4
              this was done by their reconnaissance groups, "walking" at the Viet Cong in the rear and solely on the basis of captured ammunition.
              Ours in the Patriotic War did the same, this is a worldwide practice

              This is what kind of reconnaissance groups that do not have enough ammunition, usually these are covert "events", and not war like in the movies with an immense expenditure of ammunition and the use of captured weapons.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 6 June 2021 01: 34
                +4
                Done normal groups of green berets. You can, on occasion, read the book of Master Sergeant Donald Duncan, he is one of those berets and writes exclusively about Vietnam. The book was published in the GDR, we translated it, unfortunately I do not remember the name, I read it somewhere in the early seventies.
                By the way, our army reconnaissance groups also did not disdain with captured weapons; P.P. Vershigor. ...
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 6 June 2021 07: 35
                +4
                * New legions *.

                The Gdrovites were lucky, they never came from a distance. recourse
              3. Catfish
                Catfish 6 June 2021 08: 06
                +4
                Seryozha, I wrote that we had this book in Russian and read it. Only the cover was not so catchy. So thanks to you, I saw his physimordia for the first time.
              4. Phil77
                Phil77 6 June 2021 08: 12
                +3
                I believe, I just tried to find an electronic version, and ... recourse Not found, alas.
              5. Catfish
                Catfish 6 June 2021 08: 17
                +3
                And the book is very interesting, I still remember something. The author himself came into conflict with his command because they, "berets", were trying to force them to engage in natural acts of terrorism, removing objectionable local rulers. Duncan appeared in the press, and when a real threat to his life appeared, he made his legs in the GDR.
                There I published this book.
              6. Galleon
                Galleon 12 June 2021 19: 46
                0
                https://mirlib.ru/knigi/military_history/321400-novye-legiony.html
          2. Galleon
            Galleon 12 June 2021 19: 49
            0
            Quote: Phil77
            The Gdrovites were lucky, they never came from a distance.

            Издавал Воениздат в 1970м. Вот она на аукционе продается https://meshok.net/item/238956223_%D0%9A%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0_%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B4_%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%8B_%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82_1970
    2. vl903
      vl903 6 June 2021 06: 51
      +1
      hurray patriots simplify and replace everything. are engaged in hats. drum rpk16 and ppsh disc are different designs for one task --- more cartridges. Would I have thrown out the first batch of M16 without a cleaning kit with dirty powder cartridges in Vietnam if I had an AKM on hand? Yes. ammunition only have to get hold of. modern M4? I do not know. They write like a normal apparatus. although it seems to me the complexity of the m16 to the AKM as a knot for attaching the ppsh store to the pps store. )))
  • poquello
    poquello 6 June 2021 14: 49
    0
    Quote: Sea Cat
    PPSh began to "spit"

    with DP not beguiled?
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 June 2021 18: 17
      +1
      With all the desire it is difficult to be confused.
  • Cheerock
    Cheerock 4 June 2021 22: 40
    +8
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Greetings. Interestingly, and the author knows that the quality of the stores for the PCA was so low that they were selected for each INDIVIDUALLY (!), Two per barrel?

    This myth has been discussed and described in such detail for so long and so long that there is no point in even commenting in detail.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 4 June 2021 22: 44
      -6
      So you want to refute official sources? The same studio "Wings of Russia"? Which actively collaborates with the "star" channel?
      Well, let's prove that during the Second World War, the standardization of the PCA was at the level.
      And I'll tell you which documentary to watch ...
      1. Cheerock
        Cheerock 4 June 2021 23: 12
        +6
        Yes, put me with the device on modern documentary filmmakers))) There is an NSD for PPSh-41 of 1946, where in small letters in a note it is written that disk magazines are EXACTLY fitted to the machine and it is necessary to compare the serial numbers on the machine and on the disks. And this note was inflated by modern "historians" because it was necessary to inflate and hyip. In practice, the tolerance in the design was quite wide, and other mazins that were NOT EXACTLY fitted from other machines and other factories were quite suitable for the PPSh. Some entered with difficulty, some hung out, but nevertheless there was no problem. And some fighters even managed to sit backwards in these stores, using a machine gun as a chair. This myth is already 100 years old and has been more than completely dismantled. But the generation of the USE does not care. Discoverers, yeah.
        1. Reviews
          Reviews 5 June 2021 06: 30
          +2
          Quote: CheeRock
          Yes, put me with the device on modern documentary filmmakers))) There is an NSD for PPSh-41 of 1946, where in small letters in a note it is written that disk magazines are EXACTLY fitted to the machine and it is necessary to compare the serial numbers on the machine and on the disks. And this note was inflated by modern "historians" because it was necessary to inflate and hyip. In practice, the tolerance in the design was quite wide, and other mazins that were NOT EXACTLY fitted from other machines and other factories were quite suitable for the PPSh. Some entered with difficulty, some hung out, but nevertheless there was no problem. And some fighters even managed to sit backwards in these stores, using a machine gun as a chair. This myth is already 100 years old and has been more than completely dismantled. But the generation of the USE does not care. Discoverers, yeah.

          Interesting. I was also interested in the question (albeit rather sluggishly): why is it not written about the DP-27 disk, TT store, SVT store, blockade PPS store, PPD disk ... And only PPSh was so unlucky that he had it everything is bad. :)
          1. vl903
            vl903 5 June 2021 21: 58
            +1
            I can assume that the fact is that other samples were made with less cooperation with other factories where there was poor control. and second, pay attention to the junction point of the ppsh store. there is where to screw up. if you make it with different tolerance errors, then there really will be several combinations of store-ppsh, like a key-lock. in the same TT and DP it seems to me easier with this.
          2. Helmet
            Helmet 7 June 2021 15: 14
            +1
            after 42 years, the problem with the disks was eliminated. just one plant began to make all the disk assemblies inserted into the machine and supply it to all factories producing PCA and disks
      2. vl903
        vl903 5 June 2021 22: 19
        +3
        a dug horn and a disc and a purchased disc normally enter and exit in a non-native ppsh ...
      3. vl903
        vl903 5 June 2021 22: 59
        +1
        but I will not refuse. tell me the name. maybe something interesting. thanks in advance!
    2. Serg koma
      Serg koma 5 June 2021 06: 07
      +3
      Quote: CheeRock
      It is a myth
      good
      The once shown "movie" makes an indelible impression on the gray matter of some magazines spreading "sensations". The purely "individual" disc of the PPSh belongs to the series "Blocking detachments and bloody commissars" - they would have watched less movies.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 5 June 2021 00: 04
    +7
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Interestingly, and the author knows that the quality of the stores for the PCA was so low that they were selected for each INDIVIDUALLY (!), Two per barrel?

    I wonder if you know that this problem was solved in the summer of 1942? The release of 71 cartridge magazines and its attachment point in the PPSh since August 1942 was carried out by one plant (Vyatskiye Polyany) for all assembly lines of the USSR. The problem went away, but the capacious store remained with the soldiers of the Red Army.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 5 June 2021 06: 39
      0
      Well, explain this to those who wrote from above that this is a myth and there was no such problem.
  • Blue fox
    Blue fox 5 June 2021 16: 45
    +3
    In many ways, this story is true 50/50. When working on the battlefield on watch, repeatedly, we came across PPSh with different serial numbers of the PP and stores to it. SHP PPSh from his personal collection also has 3 "tambourines", two of which are "non-native" and three "horns", also "non-native": one sample 41 g (here it is hard to fix in the PP) and two later years, without problems working. As far as I understand, everything depended on the manufacturer, for example, at one time the biggest marriage was driven by the Tbilisi Machine-Building Plant.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 4 June 2021 21: 26
    +5
    Let's not forget that the first Thomsons had disk magazines. And Suomi is the same. And our PCs suffered from the quality of workmanship, both of the PPs themselves and of the stores for them. I will not meet any complaints in the literature on drum magazines for PPD. Especially praised by shops with a direct chamber under the PPD 38!
    And let's not forget - the Red Army received a part of the PPSh and cartridges for them from Iran! And all sorts of domestic artels ...
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 4 June 2021 21: 43
      0
      ... the first Thomsons had disk magazines. And Suomi is the same


      Quality, quality and quality again. The gangsters did not take off their gloves in order to insert the store in Tommigan. And the PPSh had problems with this, especially in winter, and there was a lot of other things, too lazy to rewrite everything anew.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 4 June 2021 21: 54
        +6
        Eh "MK". Bad, you read my comment. I also "gave a hint" about the quality. And in one of the literary stories about the war, the main character was wounded due to dents on the casings of his PPSh !!! Cartridges jammed. And the cartridges were crumpled while being carried in the "cidor zalechny"!
        At the same time, the PPD34 had a horn magazine for 25 rounds. And the first "drums" with direct feed in the PPD34 / 38 contained 73 cartridges.
        It's all about the quantity and quality. When the number of TRs was required, there was no quality.
        And let's not forget that our PPSh is done by the hands of children, women and the elderly.
        The film "BOYS" !!! 1978 year.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 5 June 2021 15: 13
          +1
          Hi Aleksey. hi
          I reread everything carefully. About PPD and talk is dumb, after all, there is not stamping, but turning and milling works, and therefore the quality of performance is much higher than that of PPSh. By the way, back, about the quality, in Leningrad, during the blockade, PPS-42 was made by the same "children and women", but there were no complaints about PPSh to Sudaev. And after the war, even the West Germans copied not the PPSh, but the PPS. Maybe it's all about the very design of both weapons?
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 5 June 2021 15: 27
            +2
            It is of course a pity that the PPS did not appear in 1940 or 1941. But at the PPSh, many techniques were worked out that had previously been little used in the domestic arms business. And judging by WikiWiki in Leningrad from 1941 to 1942 42870 PPDs were made! And then they began to make PPP at these capacities. This means that the available machine park and the qualifications of the workers made it possible to produce both a simpler PPM and a more complex PPD. And the PPSh was simply our domestic model of the "butter dish" that helped in the most difficult days of the war. And I don't think the PPSh was worse than the British STEN.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 5 June 2021 15: 57
              +3
              Yes, there is no dispute about the PPSh, Shpagin created his own machine very in time and thanks to stamping it was possible to establish mass production, for good - they are not looking for good, as they say, but still it is a pity that Sudaev was not the first, a brilliant designer, sorry, very early gone from life.
              As for the American "grease nipple" (M3, MZA1), I was simply amazed when I first disassembled it, I did not expect such a high quality of processing of the bolt and drilling of the barrel, it only outwardly looked clumsy. Yes, and it is a pleasure to shoot with it, after all, I tried different P / Ps, but I didn’t have a chance to “STEN”, there were no working machines. In the Armed Forces Museum there were several Englishmen of different models, but all with perforations.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 5 June 2021 17: 27
                +2
                It would be surprising that small arms are manufactured in the United States with low quality workmanship.
                Still, their level of education and technical literacy was higher. Despite the "local peculiarities" of production before Prohibition. I read that the American worker quite calmly brought a bottle of strong alcohol with him and used it in the process.
                But thanks to the fight against the "Green Serpent", I think they managed to cope with industrial injuries, and to raise the quality of products.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 June 2021 17: 38
                  +1
                  I don’t know about the rest, but all the state weapons that passed through my hands were of exceptionally high quality workmanship.
                  And as for the "green serpent", it is categorically contraindicated, both in the manufacture of weapons and in their use. True, there are exceptions, I mean the application.
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 5 June 2021 18: 39
                    +1
                    Now I read about the declassification of an investigation into problems with drum disks for PPD in 1940. There were arrests, but then everyone was released. Search the Internet.
                  2. Catfish
                    Catfish 5 June 2021 18: 56
                    0
                    Thank you, I will definitely look. Well, arrests at that time were a common practice, and thank God they were released.
                2. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 June 2021 18: 40
                  +1
                  But the acceptance of rifles from the Americans in the First World War was not satisfied with the quality. And the Yankees believed that the Russians were simply picking on.
                3. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 June 2021 18: 59
                  +1
                  I don’t know what they found fault with, but if we are talking about "Winchesters", then these rifles and carbines chambered for a three-line cartridge our fishers successfully used after the Second World War.
                4. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 June 2021 19: 24
                  +2
                  The hunter is not an infantryman in a trench.
                  The quality was "lame" in the Remington and Westinghouse rifles.
                  The Winchesters were complained about because of their demand for cleanliness.
                  How to SVT-38 !!!
                5. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 June 2021 20: 06
                  +1
                  The fisherman, of course, is not an infantryman, he is more "picky" about the weapon he uses.
                  And the peasant is more accustomed to a simple, like a felt boot, "three-line", but the SVT-40 was preferred by more literate sailors, and the Germans gave it its due.
                6. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 June 2021 20: 20
                  +1
                  The fisherman does not run in attacks, does not crawl on his bellies in swamps and mud. And it doesn't fire 20 rounds in 20 minutes.
                  And SVT-40 is already "correcting errors" for SVT-38. It's a pity they remember little ABC-36 !!!
                7. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 June 2021 20: 24
                  +2
                  It's a pity they remember little ABC-36 !!!

                  So I would take it and write an article about this rifle.
                8. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 June 2021 20: 25
                  +1
                  Eh ... It remains only to iron the laces and write ... repeat
                9. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 June 2021 20: 36
                  +1
                  Well, what's the matter, will there be an iron? smile drinks
                10. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 June 2021 20: 52
                  +1
                  drinks there is, like an ironing board repeat
                11. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 June 2021 21: 22
                  0
                  Then everything is in order, we will wait for the result. smile
                12. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 June 2021 21: 24
                  +1
                  I'll send you for review repeat , and you will appreciate.
                13. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 June 2021 21: 26
                  0
                  Better Vic Nick, he digs deeper. smile
  • zenion
    zenion 4 June 2021 21: 30
    +4
    The author does not write that it is everywhere, but during the attack. If you remember, the PPSh has a stock, a good stock.
  • poquello
    poquello 6 June 2021 14: 45
    +1
    Quote: Sea Cat
    as an example, the PPSh disk store, attributing to it very dubious advantages over the sector one.

    "dubious" advantages were expressed in the ability to conduct continuous fire, shoot immediately without aiming, because there are more cartridges

    Quote: Sea Cat
    They lost so much that in the middle of the war, ours decided to release a new sector magazine for the PPSh for 35 rounds, as if there were no other tasks.

    February 42th is this the middle of the war? Horns were easier to manufacture, lighter and more convenient, but here is 45 years old Berlin, and .. ppsh then with a disc
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 6 June 2021 20: 40
      +2
      Horns were easier to manufacture, lighter and more convenient, but here is 45 years old Berlin, and .. ppsh then with a disc

      Sector shops were popular with artillerymen and signalmen because of the convenience of carrying the PCA behind their backs, and the infantry and reconnaissance preferred disk magazines

      Once again I show a photo of scouts in Berlin, which is already peaceful. They already knew a lot about reliable weapons. Special chic - caps without stars, but badges "Excellent scout" and medals "For Courage" with a rectangular shoe. In a word, Winners.
      Since October 42, the PPSh were supplied with discs without fitting, Shpagin achieved the quality of workmanship.
  • Kostya Lavinyukov
    Kostya Lavinyukov 5 June 2021 16: 56
    +1
    It is interesting that even here, despite the many articles exposing him, the myth about the production of PCA in semi-clandestine workshops is being broadcast.
    1. vl903
      vl903 5 June 2021 22: 29
      0
      Quote: Kostya Lavinyukov
      It is interesting that even here, despite the many articles exposing him, the myth about the production of PCA in semi-clandestine workshops is being broadcast.

      where did you see it? it is simply irrational to load such a primitive design as a PPSh for a tank, engine-building or aircraft plant. it can be produced in a more primitive plant. supply complex parts in cooperation with arms factories, for example. and the assembly should be carried out in a primitive factory.
      1. Kostya Lavinyukov
        Kostya Lavinyukov 5 June 2021 22: 40
        0
        Understandably, the plant for the PPSh will be less than for the PPSh. But this will be exactly the plant. And then I saw the opinion that the partisans could arrange a full production cycle for him.
        1. vl903
          vl903 5 June 2021 23: 16
          0
          how an exception can be. but how much could they do there? 10 pieces? 150 years ago a good locksmith could make a revolver from a piece of steel. as well as now. but this is not an indicator. We needed tens of thousands a week. At least a small plant is needed.
          1. Kostya Lavinyukov
            Kostya Lavinyukov 6 June 2021 12: 10
            0
            That is what I meant.
      2. Kostya Lavinyukov
        Kostya Lavinyukov 5 June 2021 22: 42
        0
        https://warhead.su/2020/05/18/pravda-li-oruzhie-dlya-krasnoy-armii-mogla-delat-lyubaya-artel
  • ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 4 June 2021 18: 22
    +3
    The Germans do not know how to make simple weapons. It is not given to them. And the MP 43 is an excellent rifle as well as the cartridge for it.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 4 June 2021 20: 08
      +1
      They knew how. There are a lot of examples. The same copy of "Stan", and others were ... I'm afraid to mix it up "offhand" now. For "folksturm" riveted.
      They do not know how to do poorly.
      1. Vovk
        Vovk 4 June 2021 20: 37
        0
        But I am interested in this question, because at the beginning of the war the Germans captured an unprecedented number of Soviet warehouses with small arms and ammunition ... they put something into service with their army, for example, automatic rifles ... they gave something to the allies - but still , there was so much of it ... and suddenly all captured Soviet small arms disappear by 1943 ...
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 4 June 2021 21: 04
          +2
          War recycles metal just like human lives. request
        2. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 4 June 2021 21: 21
          -3
          Everything comes to an end. Look - even now in Donbass there is a shortage of small arms and ammunition. But this is not a world war ...
        3. vl903
          vl903 5 June 2021 06: 35
          0
          the consumption of weapons is the same as people and maybe more. here and wear. killed, lost. severely wounded, lost. captured, lost. panicky retreat - lost. a little trophy teams collected. But in places of battles there is still a lot of lies. Sometimes you think how much metal a person has mined and processed? !!!
        4. Siberian54
          Siberian54 5 June 2021 18: 46
          0
          vovk \ Barrels of weapons tend to die-what is it in a war 10,000 shots from a machine gun-minuscule half a year and a fool's bullet flies anywhere just not where the sight is looking ... Already in the fall of 42, policemen were armed with a Mauser 98 because the trophies were mostly trash with storage warehouses ..
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 4 June 2021 21: 28
        +1
        A strange statement. They would be able to do it simply and efficiently - the site "Voenoye Obozreniye" in Russian WOULD not exist!
      3. DesToeR
        DesToeR 5 June 2021 00: 11
        -2
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        They knew how. There are a lot of examples. Same copy of Stan, and others were ...

        The funny thing is that STEN is a simplified copy of the MP28 model (Schmeisser). So the Germans copied a simplified copy of their own PP of the late 20s.
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        They do not know how to do poorly.

        STG-44 and its clumsy stamped box?
        1. vl903
          vl903 5 June 2021 14: 32
          0
          STG-44 and its clumsy stamped box?
          no need to idealize the Teutonic genius but also no need to simplify. the idea with the stamped stg44 was correct - the weapons of an ordinary infantryman should not only be cheap, but also be produced in millions of pieces. and stamping is best for this. just making a stamped part light, strong and simple is very hard. How many years have you been bringing AK to mind, sort of stopping even the series?
          1. DesToeR
            DesToeR 6 June 2021 09: 12
            0
            Quote: vl903
            no need to idealize the Teutonic genius but also no need to simplify.

            Who doesn't need it? To me?
            Quote: vl903
            the idea with the stamped stg44 was correct

            And who disputes this? Have you read the post carefully? Do you understand what the mention of STG-44 refers to? And may not all swamis agree. The Americans solved the problem of cheapening their M-16 in the "perpendicular plane" stamping.
            Quote: vl903
            just making a stamped part light, strong and simple is very hard.

            Launching weapons unusable into mass production is a hack, at least, and sabotage in essence.
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 4 June 2021 18: 32
    +1
    What the Germans will not come up with for murder.
    Unscrewed a couple of water pipes in the closet, here's a finished submachine gun.
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 4 June 2021 20: 41
      +3
      What the Germans will not come up with for murder.
      A gloomy German genius, he was like that at that time, the country needed so clever heads thought, surrounded by Western imperialism !!!
      1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
        Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 4 June 2021 20: 58
        0
        Not German, but Teutonic, however. This is more correct.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 4 June 2021 21: 08
          +1
          Then, it is more correct Germanic than Teutonic - after all, this is an order, in fact, and not the self-name of that country ... at that time, exactly !?
          1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
            Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 4 June 2021 21: 19
            +1
            Okay, maybe so be it, I don’t want to argue!
          2. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 4 June 2021 21: 23
            +1
            Something that we also learned. If for shooting - a nozzle for shooting from around the corner. Yes, and with Sturmgeaer it is not completely clear ...
  • polpot
    polpot 4 June 2021 18: 33
    +3
    Gloomy Teutonic genius in action
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 4 June 2021 19: 06
    +5
    Of course, it fired even worse than "Stan". But it worked!
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 4 June 2021 19: 37
      0
      I thought it was Ryabov who was spreading the jam. It turns out that he has followers.
      Submachine gun E.M.R. 44 went as a trophy to the American military, which by April 12, 1945

      A year earlier. In 1944. And the day is correct. Checkout error.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 4 June 2021 19: 43
        +3
        Until now, you have been loyal to Yuferev.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 4 June 2021 20: 17
          +1
          Probably, until he began to carry a deliberate nonsense.?
          1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 4 June 2021 20: 15
      +5
      Hello Anton. hi In the shooting range, it all works, but in real conditions, at the front, after all, it was not tested.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 4 June 2021 20: 30
        +5
        Didn't you run in "Volkssturm"?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 4 June 2021 20: 58
          +4
          No, here he wrote everything correctly, they did not put it on stream and there was nothing to run in, but not with such equipment, machine park and highly qualified personnel as on Erma to drive any shooting trash with a shaft - they drove "Sturmgevers" and did the right thing. And the end is still unambiguous, no matter how hard you drive it. request
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 4 June 2021 21: 10
            +3
            Okay, I won't mind. Note! ( laughing )
            Well, you don't mind me on the subject of the Middle Ages! hi laughing laughing
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 4 June 2021 21: 23
              +4
              Is there any information on Erma? If there is, then come on - interesting. drinks
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 4 June 2021 21: 32
        +1
        Theory and practice must go together. If practice refutes the theory, then it is not true! "Pythagorean pants" has not yet been refuted!
        Hopefully they won't be pulled over "BLM's hairy thighs"!
  • Avior
    Avior 4 June 2021 21: 33
    +1
    ... To assemble the PPSh, it took about 5,6 machine-hours, for the PPS submachine gun that appeared during the war years, which was adopted in 1942, this figure was completely reduced to 2,7 machine-hours.

    And what does Machine-Clock have to do with assembly?
    They weren't collected on machines.
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 4 June 2021 22: 09
      +3
      The comrade ripped off the source to pass the anti-plagiarism, replaced the word "production" with the word "assembly", so it turned out how it happened. (Assumption and personal value judgment. Where did I get lazy to google)
    2. DesToeR
      DesToeR 5 June 2021 00: 14
      +1
      Quote: Avior
      And what does Machine-Clock have to do with assembly?

      EMNIP in Soviet terminology, as applied to PPSh, were standard hours. But I could be wrong.
      1. Avior
        Avior 5 June 2021 06: 07
        0
        Machine-Clock is another indicator that shows the need for equipment in production. Stamping production really reduces this time - but then you need to modify it by hand with a file when assembling and fitting
      2. Mooh
        Mooh 5 June 2021 11: 31
        0
        EMNIP in Soviet terminology, applied to PPSh, were the standard hours

        In Soviet literature, I did not meet the standard hours, although they certainly were. Usually they write about man-hours, and here the term machine-hours is used to emphasize the manufacturability of the product.
        All three terms have different meanings, and in the phrase under discussion, the term is used incorrectly, to which Avior's colleague drew attention. If you substitute the standard clock, the phrase under discussion will not get better.
  • Avior
    Avior 4 June 2021 22: 41
    +2
    During the war, the production of this model was managed in mass quantities even in small artels and workshops with the involvement of unskilled labor.

    at least someone would have reported on specific small artels and workshops, taking into account the fact that a powerful press was needed for the production of PCA.
    1. vl903
      vl903 5 June 2021 06: 27
      0
      I don't remember exactly, but like:
      artel at that time was the name of a very large plant, BUT subordinate to the Ministry of Light Industry, and the plant was subordinate to heavy industry.
      1. Avior
        Avior 5 June 2021 07: 12
        +1
        Yes, they usually cite the Leningrad artel Primus as an example, which was actually a plant that participated in the production of PPP.
        But it was small artels and workshops - I did not see that they produced
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 5 June 2021 02: 43
    +2
    About the submachine gun E.M.R. 44 can be viewed here:
  • Monar
    Monar 5 June 2021 10: 23
    +1
    Submachine guns have become a truly massive weapon in the USSR, however, this did not happen from a good life.
    Why? Didn't you have enough Mosinks?
    But what about enemies and allies? Why did they make submachine guns?
    1. vl903
      vl903 5 June 2021 14: 39
      0
      due to lack of firepower in the squad. easel maxims were not mobile and were in short supply. dp27 was also not enough, and they could not give a particularly high density of fire. the infantryman basically had nothing but a mosinka and a grenade. and then the PPD or PPSh was very much by the way. and then the PPSH already partially occupied the niche of a modern machine gun
      1. Monar
        Monar 5 June 2021 17: 04
        0
        And why then did the Germans release submachine guns? They had a better situation with machine guns. But they went down to the ersatz of the tap.
        The PP went to the troops even before the start of the war. And in all countries. With varying degrees of success, of course. But here's something I have not heard that they would be offered as an alternative to light machine guns.
        1. vl903
          vl903 5 June 2021 21: 13
          0
          then the same as all other countries. needed an automatic weapon of close and medium combat, relatively light, with an acceptable recoil during auto-fire, allowing you to hit a target of acceptable dimensions. then what the automata became later. the Germans had a mg34, but it was not effective to shoot from it, if not unrealistic. dimensions and weight with cartridges are large. the gun does not give the required fire density.
          1. Monar
            Monar 6 June 2021 04: 54
            0
            then the same as all other countries

            Well, what does it have to do with it?
            Submachine guns have become a truly massive weapon in the USSR, however, this did not happen from a good life.
            ?
            You will decide. Either there were not enough handbrakes or a new class of weapons was required in all countries.
            1. vl903
              vl903 6 June 2021 06: 41
              0
              if there was a good single machine gun or a handbrake under 7.62x39 or svt would be simple and for every infantryman, then ppsh-ppd would not be so necessary.
              1. Monar
                Monar 6 June 2021 12: 20
                0
                Well, don't tell my sneakers. What nafig 7.62x39 in the thirties? Alternative history in books (I like to read and listen) rules.
                The author of the article drew him by the ears about the bad life and the "replacement" of RP with PP.
                1. vl903
                  vl903 6 June 2021 13: 51
                  -1
                  yes no, he repeated the elementary things - retreat on all fronts. huge losses of weapons. deficit maxims, dp27, svt. our infantryman was left alone with a mosink and a grenade against the Germans from MG34 with the support of armored cars, tanks, artillery and aviation. to improve the balance with aviation, tanks, artillery quickly did not work. we didn’t have a good and technologically advanced easel, a single and, well, and probably a light machine gun. (although the dp27 was a normal handbrake, but you don’t rivet it much quickly) and the ppsh could be quickly stamped. this is ersatz of course, but better than one mosink
                  1. Monar
                    Monar 6 June 2021 23: 03
                    0
                    Don’t try with slogans.
                    our infantryman was left alone with a mosink and a grenade
                    And the PPSh was never an ersatz.
                    1. vl903
                      vl903 7 June 2021 07: 59
                      0
                      I don’t know your degree of immersion in the topic))) so I try to speak simpler, sometimes it’s unsuccessful. ppsh is a decent submachine gun, but the need for automatic weapons was only partially satisfied. in comparison with mp40 normal, in comparison with mg34 or mp44 or svt40 or the same dp27 this is a forced and ineffective measure. figuratively speaking, ersatz.
  • Cheerock
    Cheerock 5 June 2021 14: 26
    0
    Quote: Avis
    Quote: CheeRock
    Yes, put me with the device on modern documentary filmmakers))) There is an NSD for PPSh-41 of 1946, where in small letters in a note it is written that disk magazines are EXACTLY fitted to the machine and it is necessary to compare the serial numbers on the machine and on the disks. And this note was inflated by modern "historians" because it was necessary to inflate and hyip. In practice, the tolerance in the design was quite wide, and other mazins that were NOT EXACTLY fitted from other machines and other factories were quite suitable for the PPSh. Some entered with difficulty, some hung out, but nevertheless there was no problem. And some fighters even managed to sit backwards in these stores, using a machine gun as a chair. This myth is already 100 years old and has been more than completely dismantled. But the generation of the USE does not care. Discoverers, yeah.

    Interesting. I was also interested in the question (albeit rather sluggishly): why is it not written about the DP-27 disk, TT store, SVT store, blockade PPS store, PPD disk ... And only PPSh was so unlucky that he had it everything is bad. :)

    Because in the manual there was no footnote in small letters and there was no reason to hyip)))
  • Cheerock
    Cheerock 5 June 2021 14: 33
    0
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Well, explain this to those who wrote from above that this is a myth and there was no such problem.

    What problem wasn't there? Problems, that if a soldier lost or bent number shops, then he could throw out the PPSh, because with other shops he could not shoot in principle? )))
    1. vl903
      vl903 5 June 2021 21: 22
      0
      there was a problem of poor quality in the early years of the war. and such a problem was not only for the PPSh but also for the T34 and probably almost everything that was produced then. all the participating countries had this problem. someone has more someone less. The USA also faced this, since their industry was fully loaded and many women were hired for production.
      1. Cheerock
        Cheerock 5 June 2021 23: 47
        +1
        This is different. It is argued that only TWO disk magazines approached each PPSh-41, and no others from other PPShs approached and the PPSh-41 could only shoot with these two magazines that came with it from the factory.
        1. vl903
          vl903 6 June 2021 06: 16
          0
          pay attention to the relative complexity of the magazine attachment. I am a sofa expert, but it seems to me there are at least seven sizes that need to be controlled. if you break at least one synchronously with the reciprocal node in the ppsh, then it can easily be a situation when normal stores will not fit your ppsh.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. vl903
            vl903 6 June 2021 06: 54
            0
            and if in part all ppsh and disks from such a plant? there you really have to take care of your stores, and strangers only through fitting.
          3. Cheerock
            Cheerock 6 June 2021 16: 54
            0
            Quote: vl903
            pay attention to the relative complexity of the magazine attachment. I am a sofa expert, but it seems to me there are at least seven sizes that need to be controlled. if you break at least one synchronously with the reciprocal node in the ppsh, then it can easily be a situation when normal stores will not fit your ppsh.

            There is such a word - tolerance, when the size is written in the drawing, for example, 100 mm +2 mm / -3 mm. This means that a size from 97 mm to 102 mm is allowed for the mating mating surface. But at the same time, 97 mm will dangle, but within normal limits, and 102 mm will sit very tightly, but the pairing will still occur. Do not think that Georgy Semenovich Shpagin, who has three classes of education, sculpted weapons by eye. The industrialization and powerful development of the education system bore fruit, and in the USSR, already in the early 30s, a unified system of design documentation and industry standards was already introduced and operated, in accordance with which the documentation for the PPSh-41 was fully developed from the assembly drawing to technological maps processing of every detail.
            1. vl903
              vl903 6 June 2021 18: 19
              0
              well, so everyone is talking about admission. when it was observed everything was fine. during that period when it was not possible to comply with it and there was a leapfrog with shops. The TT store is positioned by the shaft, and in the PPSh by an additional element - the guide. and this is another plus two sizes. As we set up production again, the problem went away.
              1. Cheerock
                Cheerock 6 June 2021 19: 00
                0
                Quote: vl903
                well, so everyone is talking about admission. when it was observed everything was fine. during that period when it was not possible to comply with it and there was a leapfrog with shops. The TT store is positioned by the shaft, and in the PPSh by an additional element - the guide. and this is another plus two sizes. As we set up production again, the problem went away.

                Open NSD by PPSh-41 editions 1946 and you will find that very note there that two numbered stores are precisely tailored to a specific PPSh-41. What you will not find there is that not exactly fitted magazines from other PCA do not fit your PC. They fit within tolerance - loose or come in tight, but fit.
                1. vl903
                  vl903 6 June 2021 19: 36
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                  we are talking about the same thing))) I agree with you. but there was a problem at the beginning of the war. my three different shops fit perfectly into a non-native nest.
  • Cheerock
    Cheerock 5 June 2021 14: 34
    0
    Quote: Monar
    Submachine guns have become a truly massive weapon in the USSR, however, this did not happen from a good life.
    Why? Didn't you have enough Mosinks?
    But what about enemies and allies? Why did they make submachine guns?

    The main weapon of the Wehrmacht was the Mauser carbine. PP against the general background of the Wehrmacht was not so much.
  • Cheerock
    Cheerock 6 June 2021 17: 05
    +1
    Quote: vl903
    if there was a good single machine gun or a handbrake under 7.62x39 or svt would be simple and for every infantryman, then ppsh-ppd would not be so necessary.

    In urban areas, for example, the PP is much more effective than the carbine. In fact, Stalingrad clearly proved this. Therefore, they tried to build a cheap PP for the Volkssturm, because he had to defend himself in the cities.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • san99san
    san99san 10 June 2021 08: 20
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    san99san German MP-38 (40) never surpassed PPSh and PPS in accuracy and reliability. The MP had problems with the magazine spring, which was sagging, for this reason, the full magazine was not equipped to the MP, and it was also more sensitive to pollution than the PCA and PPS. The 9 × 19 Parabelum cartridge used in the MP had worse ballistics compared to the 6.72 × 25 TT, respectively, the accuracy of the Soviet PPs was better. What the Germans themselves admitted. Some German generals even suggested that Hitler organize the production of PPShs in Germany for the needs of the Wehrmacht.
    1. XBOCT
      XBOCT 11 June 2021 18: 15
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      Everything is so, only 7.62
  • XBOCT
    XBOCT 11 June 2021 18: 14
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    "" "" "" "" "At the same time, the moving parts of the weapon's automation (reciprocating combat spring, bolt) were similar in system to those used in the MP-40.
    The trigger mechanism E.M.R. 44 was simplified and did not have a fire mode translator. The submachine gun was designed only for automatic firing "" "" "" "" ".
    Shaw, right ??????? The author, and the MP-40 had a fire translator ??? Is it real?