Military Review

Zirconia dizziness from "success"

191

Photo: press service of the RF Ministry of Defense


The tests of "Zircon", on which a very large stake is placed not only in the country's defense capability, but also in foreign policy, are approaching the final stage.

In this regard, in the media there are many different kinds of articles, from sustained to "we will all win." It even reaches the point of logical absurdity. For example, RIA TASS in its material posted a statement by the Russian ambassador to the United States, Anatoly Antonov, that "successful tests of the complex give confidence to Russian diplomats in negotiations with the Americans on arms control."

On the one hand, it’s kind of good, but what if there were no “Zircons”? Did our diplomats mumble something in the corners? Or would you unconditionally agree to all the demands of the Americans? Strange approach, to be honest. For diplomats.

Meanwhile, the end of the Zircon tests is unknown. Everything rests on streamlined phrases. Shoigu says that by the end of the year, the rocket will be accurately checked in all respects. Putin says the Zircon will soon be on alert.

But in general there is information that if the "Admiral Gorshkov" successfully fires this year, then next, if nothing happens, then serial deliveries to the Armed Forces will begin.

It all depends on the shooting of "Admiral Gorshkov".


Photo: press service of the North fleet

The "floating computer", as this frigate is called in the navy due to the abundance of electronics, should, in theory, complete the tests normally. At least, the fact that the Gorshkov's crew has more experience in handling new technology, like no one else, makes it possible to think so.

The frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" generally turned out to be not so much a warship as a kind of testing ground for various systems. The Polyment-Redut and electronic suppression equipment were tested on it, so the appearance of the Zircons on the frigate is generally justified.

The first firing of the Zircons from the Gorshkov was carried out back in December 2019.


According to the Ministry of Defense, three launches were carried out, two at a surface target, one at a ground target. That's not a lot. It can even be said, frankly not enough to speak of complete and unconditional success.

For comparison: the R-30 Bulava SLBM was launched 38 times during the tests. Of these, 31 times were successful. Zircon three times. The conclusions are clear, work still remains to be done.

It was officially said that several test launches are planned in 2021. Four launches are expected from the Admiral Gorshkov, three more launches from the nuclear submarine K-560 Severodvinsk.

Two launches (apparently from a frigate) will complete the cycle of flight design tests, the rest will already be carried out under the state test program.

In addition, as luxurious as the rocket is, there is another problem: the problem of carriers. We don't have many ships capable of carrying and launching the Zircons.

Of all the variety of ships, only the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" is really ready to accommodate and successfully launch the Zircon.

The cruisers Admiral Nakhimov and Peter the Great will be able to operate as Zircons only after the end of the upgrades. Considering that Peter the Great will be upgraded after Admiral Nakhimov, that is, after 2022.


Accordingly, we can say that the two cruisers will be ready to operate the Zircons after 2025.

Project 22350 frigates. More precisely, the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov".


Photo: Press Service of the Northern Fleet

The rest of the series ships are under construction. Shoigu promised that by 2025 there will be six frigates in service.

That's all with surface ships. Small missile boats and ships, which theoretically can launch "Zircons" (projects 22800, 21631, 11661), are unlikely to get them into service. Agree, there is no need for a coastal ship to carry serious anti-ship missiles. Especially in the Baltic and Black Sea. But we will talk about the places of application below.

This means that at the level of 2025 we will have 8 surface ships capable of carrying Zircons and successfully attacking enemy ships with them.

But there are also submarines, which are also in the adaptation program for carrying the Zircons on board.

These are, firstly, Project 971 Schuka-B submarines.


Today we have 9 units, 4 in service and 5 are under repair and modernization.

Secondly, these are boats of project 949A "Antey". There are 7 boats, 5 in service and 2 under repair.


Photo: press service of the RF Ministry of Defense

Thirdly, these are boats of project 885 "Yasen-M". We have 2 of them, and 7 more are under construction.


Photo: Press Service of the Northern Fleet

In total, at the turn of 2028-30, we may have about 20 submarines capable of carrying Zircons. As always, the submarine looks preferable.

In any case, the process of preparing the fleet for the use of "Zircons" will take about 5-8 years, so there is plenty of time to bring the rocket up to standard.

It is clear that the Northern and Pacific fleets will be the bases of the ships with the Zircons on board. This is logical, since this is where the ships are located that can carry this weapon.

And the use of "Zircons" in the limited waters of the Baltic and Black Seas looks doubtful. The declared flight range of the "Zircon" is from 500 to 1000 kilometers, what to do with such a missile at "pistol" Baltic and Black Sea distances is not entirely clear. Yes, and ships capable of carrying this weapon are not there, and so far they are not even foreseen.

The Pacific and Arctic oceans remain. Huge water areas, large test ranges, which are the best suited for testing such missiles and, importantly, are not the safest areas in terms of security.

So it is normal to reinforce the most dangerous directions in all respects with new weapons. This is logical.

As for the Baltic and Black Seas, the coastal placement of the Zircons would be more appropriate for them. Such complexes will be able to keep at gunpoint very large areas of the water area without any problems.

The Ministry of Defense says that the Zircon missile is a rather flexible weapon and in the very near future, the appearance of ground and aviation versions of the rocket. In this case, the 3M22 Zircon can claim versatility in basing, which only adds to the advantages of this missile.

During the tests, "Zircon" hit targets at a distance of 450 kilometers. The declared firing range is about 1 km. In the event of a successful achievement of the calculated firing range, this really makes the Zircon a very impressive weapon.

I repeat, in the case of successful tests, which will confirm the calculated data. But not before.

Recently, it has become somehow accepted in our country to start threatening the whole world with new "unparalleled" weapons, without bringing it to a state of combat readiness. It doesn't look very serious. "Zircon" is a potentially excellent weapon, if all tests are completed successfully, the rocket will be put into mass production, there will be carrier ships and properly trained crews for it.

Then it will be a weapon.

In the meantime, "Zircon" is nothing more than a product undergoing testing. And the noise around him is not entirely appropriate. At one time we made a lot of noise on the topic of many "not having ..." types of weapons. The status of which has remained, "not having", because our Armed Forces do not have them in service.

In any case, in the 5-7 years that we have to prepare the carriers for the "Zircons", the rocket can be brought to a combat state and put on stream in terms of production.

Moreover, the main thing is not even "Zircon". The main thing is the carriers of "Zircon", capable of performing combat missions in different parts of the oceans.

The fact that new weapons are tested without negative results is excellent. However, one should not turn our heads and assume that we are reliably protected by the Zircons from any threats in our direction. So far, the Zircons protect about the same as the Poseidons. At the level of information warfare.

Although it is more believed in "Zircons".
Author:
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 25 May 2021 05: 44
    .
    Agree, there is no need for a coastal ship to carry serious anti-ship missiles.

    What will Andrey from Chelyabinsk say about this ... smile
    The British aircraft carrier that entered the Black Sea is a tasty prey for Zircon.
    Anyway, announce the list of priority targets for such a missile.
    1. mark1
      mark1 25 May 2021 06: 08
      +13
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Agree, there is no need for a coastal ship to carry serious anti-ship missiles.

      If a boat can carry them and, of course, use them, why not? To hit the shore with the "Zircon" in the conditions of the Baltic and Black Sea theaters saturated with air defense systems is a wonderful option (not all "Calibers" will be able to reach the target)
      1. krot
        krot 25 May 2021 11: 37
        0
        It even reaches the point of logical absurdity.

        If the author has difficulty with logic, it is possible that periodically logical dead ends constantly arise in his head) Cognitive dissonance of a kind laughing
        For me, it is clear to the ram that the stronger the army of the state, and the more the striped ones are afraid of it, the easier they make compromises, here the connection is direct .. and if you are a banana republic, they will only dictate their own terms.
        According to the Ministry of Defense, three launches were carried out, two at a surface target, one at a ground target. That's not a lot. It can even be said, frankly not enough to speak of complete and unconditional success.

        The author imagines himself to be an expert in technical products, their design and construction, and from the sofa he can better see how many test firing sessions are needed with this or that product in order to bring it to the production level. laughing Mmm yeah
        Gentlemen, production workers, hire such a valuable employee! wassat
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 26 May 2021 19: 33
          +5
          Anyone can offend the author.
          Instead of writing the very best article. wink
          But the listing of all the nuclear submarines together with the Antaeus puzzled me too.
          As far as I understand, the dimensions of Zircon are identical to those of Onyx.
          And Onyxes are not launched from 533 mm TA.
          I don’t know how the Zircons will launch the nuclear submarine 971 “Pike-B”.
          As for the Anteevs, only those who have been upgraded with the replacement of PU Granite will be able to carry Zircons. So far, these are Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk. Everything.
          Ashes have no problem. They are initially correctly "sharpened". hi
          Well, it's quite simple with why "caps" are not thrown into the air yet.
          There are no problems with tests from surface ships and are not expected.
          And when the tests from Ash are successfully passed, then everyone will rejoice.
          According to the plan, this is the end of 2021. And no one wants to run ahead of the locomotive. bully
          1. krot
            krot 26 May 2021 19: 40
            +4
            Aren't you puzzled by the comparison of the strategic Bulava and the tactical Zircon? smile
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 26 May 2021 19: 43
              -3
              Aren't you puzzled by the comparison of the strategic Bulava and the tactical Zircon?

              When VVP, talking about Zircon and "decision-making centers", he suggested calculating the flight time.
              In the days of my youth, our nuclear submarine reached the Hudson.
              In this sense (there is no need to place anything in Cuba), I am not puzzled. wink
              1. krot
                krot 27 May 2021 14: 45
                -1
                Alexander, have you even read the article? What does your youth have to do with the Hudson and Cuba? The author compares these two completely different systems: strategic Bulava and tactical Zircon in the context of R&D, putting an equal sign between them. There tasks, materials and delivery methods are completely different and require a different approach. The author is unaware of this. And how the product is being finalized, how it "goes" easily or difficult, he also does not know from the sofa.
                1. Alex777
                  Alex777 27 May 2021 16: 44
                  0
                  Alexander, have you even read the article?

                  Obliquely. : repeat
                  I was looking for something interesting for myself without being distracted by the previously known.
                  The author compares these two completely different systems: strategic Mace and tactical Zircon in the context of R&D, putting an equal sign between them.

                  Well, he did not put an equal sign, but the comparison of the number of test launches of the Bulava and the approximation of these results for Zircon is, of course, in vain. smile
                  And how the product is being finalized, how it "goes" easily or difficult, he also does not know from the sofa.

                  You know, when you think / discuss - everything is more or less clear. When you begin to translate understanding into printed form, something is sure to go wrong. This is on the one hand.
                  On the other hand, the author may not fully imagine the conditions in which the Bulava was developed. Much is very different now. And God forbid that such times as then (when the Mace was made) will never happen again in our country. hi
                  1. krot
                    krot 27 May 2021 16: 48
                    0
                    You know, when you think / discuss - everything is more or less clear. When you begin to translate understanding into printed form, something is sure to go wrong. This is on the one hand.

                    We have a very good saying: "Measure seven times ..!"
                    That was not: "We wanted the best ..!" laughing
                    And you rightly noticed about the 90s when the Mace was laid ... Technologies have gone far ahead now. Now there are more bench and static tests.
                    1. Alex777
                      Alex777 27 May 2021 17: 08
                      0
                      Now there are more bench and static tests.

                      This is how it should be.
                      And then Everyone knows who decided to save money. For different reasons. hi
              2. Leon68
                Leon68 28 May 2021 02: 58
                +1
                Quote: Alex777
                When VVP, talking about Zircon and "decision-making centers", he suggested calculating the flight time.

                Actually, VVP had in mind not so much the Zircons as the Vanguards.
                1. Alex777
                  Alex777 28 May 2021 10: 07
                  0
                  Actually, VVP had in mind not so much the Zircons as the Vanguards.

                  You must have listened inattentively. It was about the deployment of American missiles in Europe.
                  Putin invited Washington to calculate how much of the neutral waters missiles would take, in particular the hypersonic Zircon at Mach 9

                  "But there is one more parameter, experts must understand this. I did not tell, but I can tell you here for the first time. They must see where the carriers will be located, I said that these are sea carriers - submarines or surface ships. And they can be put them at such speeds and at such a range - there is no need to put them in territorial waters, or even in a special economic zone of a certain state - in neutral waters, just in the ocean, "Putin said ..

                  https://www.interfax.ru/russia/651408
      2. Elisarius
        Elisarius 18 July 2021 12: 31
        0
        Zircons take out air defense missile defense and calibers solve other problems
    2. Evil troll
      Evil troll 25 May 2021 06: 17
      +13
      For the time being, aircraft carriers are not allowed to enter the Black Sea.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 25 May 2021 06: 36
        -9
        Right ... but times are changing ... who knows the Montreux convention can be thrown into the trash can.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 26 May 2021 19: 51
          -2
          the Montreux convention can be thrown into the trash can.

          The Turks are asking tourists to return.
          They are sitting in Moscow. They look into the eyes. bully
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 25 May 2021 09: 08
        +5
        Quote: Angry Troll
        For the time being, aircraft carriers are not allowed to enter the Black Sea.

        If you want to spit on the rights!
    3. Doccor18
      Doccor18 25 May 2021 07: 07
      +14
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      ... the British aircraft carrier that has entered the Black Sea is a tasty prey for Zircon.

      And what did the British aircraft carrier forget in the Black Sea?
      If necessary, he will be able to successfully attack from the waters of the Mediterranean ...
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 25 May 2021 09: 05
        +2
        Quote: Doccor18
        And what did the British aircraft carrier forget in the Black Sea?
        If necessary, he will be able to successfully attack from the waters of the Mediterranean ...

        With the shrinking territory of Russia, now from Marble!
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 25 May 2021 09: 31
          +8
          Quote: Serg65
          ... now from the Marble!

          From this, so to speak, "sea" with a maximum width of 75 km ... on an aircraft carrier ... so-so trick. I wouldn't go. winked
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 25 May 2021 09: 56
            +5
            Quote: Doccor18
            so so trick

            The internal NATO sea, protected from all sides, an hour's flight to Sevastopol, an hour and a half to Krasnodar ... what doesn't suit you?
            1. Doccor18
              Doccor18 25 May 2021 10: 05
              +5
              Quote: Serg65
              Inland NATO Sea, protected from all directions ..

              In theory, the Onyx anti-ship missile system can quite fly from the Sevastopol Bay to the Sea of ​​Marmara ...
              Before the Aegean, no.

              Quote: Serg65
              what does not suit you?
              Little room to maneuver fellow
              1. Machito
                Machito 25 May 2021 10: 58
                +2
                The author contradicts himself in the title and text of the article.
              2. Serg65
                Serg65 25 May 2021 12: 05
                +3
                Quote: Doccor18
                Little room to maneuver

                laughing No, well, yes ... not our size!
            2. Xenofont
              Xenofont 25 May 2021 13: 42
              +1
              The Dardanelles also figure in the Convention, and the Sea of ​​Marmara is between them and the Bosphorus, so it's a dubious message.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 25 May 2021 13: 58
                +3
                Quote: Xenofont
                The Dardanelles also figure in the Convention, and the Sea of ​​Marmara is between them and the Bosphorus, so it's a dubious message.

                Turkey, a NATO country? USA NATO country? what is the dubiousness?
                1. Xenofont
                  Xenofont 25 May 2021 14: 11
                  +1
                  What's not clear in my argument? As long as the Convention is in force in peacetime, the Sea of ​​Marmara will not become the site of an attack; during a threatened period, it will be targeted from Crimea.
  2. Flashpoint
    Flashpoint 25 May 2021 05: 49
    +20
    So what is the article about?
    1. There are few carriers, we already know that. We wait, we look, we hope;
    2. Zircon is not ready / not tested 100%, but announced as something terrible and inevitable? Well, this is the trend. Already for all (well, not for all, but pictures and wishlist from the USA to India were blown up) the 6th generation fighter was "announced";
    3. Since Zircon - where are the performance characteristics, where are the links to tests, production plans, etc.?
    4. Again - tests or launches? There were 3 tests, and how many launches? nine ? Information dances everywhere. The same range, where 9, and where 500.

    Total:
    So what is the article about?

    Free analytics ...
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 25 May 2021 06: 13
      +16
      Quote: Flashpoint
      Free analytics ...

      It is very likely that this is exactly the case. If this is already written ... "However, you should not turn your head and assume that we are reliably protected by the Zircons from any threats in our direction." I really have never heard anywhere that this is what they say about any of our weapons, because such a statement, even in the eyes of an amateur, sounds like nonsense.
      1. bayard
        bayard 25 May 2021 21: 45
        +5
        Quote: NDR-791
        If this is already written ...

        And no one noticed that the author called "Pike-B" 971 ave. Bearers ... "Zircons" ...
        What are they going to launch them with? They will not fit into a TA, even into the one for "large torpedoes", they do not have and have never had a VPU.
        So far only "Ash" and "Ash-M" can be carriers. In the future, there may be "Borey-K", if this project ever sees the light of day.
        "Batons" 949 ave. For "Zircon" carriers will most likely not be modernized, but simply repaired.
        And among the surface ships the author, besides the "Orlans" ("Nakhimov" and, possibly in the future, "Peter the Great") and the frigates of the project 22350, the carriers of the "Zircon" can also be the modernized BOD of the project 1155. So on "Shaposhnikov" two UKSKs for 16 missiles are installed, and on all subsequent ones they will install 4 UKSKs for 32 missiles.
        Quote: NDR-791
        I really have never heard anywhere that this is what they say about any of our weapons, because such a statement, even in the eyes of an amateur, sounds like nonsense.

        There is enough delirium these days from "experts", and from journalists, and from "representatives of industry". This is an absolute failure in education, negative selection when moving up the career ladder, and complete disrespect for the audience.
    2. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 25 May 2021 06: 15
      -3
      Smoke screen.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  3. G17
    G17 25 May 2021 05: 52
    +28
    The author correctly noticed a bad tendency - the Russian authorities constantly boast of "Armats", "Boomerangs", "Zircons", "Sarmats" or Su-57, despite the fact that none of these samples have been brought to mind. The second bad point: all of the above should have entered service in 2015-2016. (which now they prefer not to remember). That is, there are systemic problems in the military-industrial complex: a lack of qualified personnel and capacities, management problems, many enterprises in astronomical debts to banks, etc. They also prefer not to remember this, spinning cartoons with "miracle weapons" for us. Under the USSR, everything was done differently, more seriously, according to the state. First, the new model was brought to mind, mass production was organized and established, and only then the people were pleased with its entry into service. That is, they said, they did it. The current authorities, without bringing anything to mind, are in a hurry to wishful thinking. Looks (sorry for the vocabulary), like a cheap show-off.
    1. Installer
      Installer 25 May 2021 06: 23
      -3
      It looks like this against the background of the union. But do not forget that after him there was Gorbachev and Yeltsin! (Not a mistake specially with a small letter) and we will be correcting the consequences of that time for a long time.
      1. AUL
        AUL 25 May 2021 14: 52
        +10
        Quote: Installer
        But do not forget that after him there was Gorbachev and Yeltsin!

        And there was also the Tatar-Mongol invasion! How long can you nod at Gorbochev-Yeltsin if the current administration is in power for 21(TWENTY ONE) year?
        1. Installer
          Installer 25 May 2021 15: 17
          0
          My sister is a historian with a degree. They thought that it would take about 40 years to fix it.
          1. AUL
            AUL 25 May 2021 19: 12
            -1
            Quote: Installer
            They thought that it would take about 40 years to fix it.

            Another 20 years ?! Yes, they do not live! laughing
        2. ada
          ada 19 July 2021 21: 39
          0
          Well, here one authoritative comrade says that the cultivation (change is already my conjecture) of elites is possible in 90 years, taking into account the change of three generations of 25 for each, if I understand it correctly, this is an estimated educational time with a further entry into adulthood and the beginning of a professional career specifically for leaders, both politicians and techies. Well, NATA had a slightly more modest deadline, or maybe they wanted so much? So it turns out - after a hundred they will refer to others. Such a seljavukha. laughing
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 25 May 2021 06: 39
      +12
      Firstly, no one in the Union made the people happy. There was no military analytics of the available level, nor the ability to convey meaningful information. How could the people find out something?) Under the Soviet Union, any information was kept secret. You wouldn't know about zircon in your life, but if you did, you had big problems with the law. Now the man in the street is getting drunk. Openness and the flow of information were beaten off by all brains. We are now discussing the data from the media as the truth, which in itself is nonsense. Where did everyone get the idea that the information you are being told is true, including the performance characteristics of the products? And you probably do not know well how the USSR adopted weapons. Apparently, you did not study the history of t 64 in the GSVG and their massive failure in exercises 77-79. Yes, in such quantities that the command turned gray. That the T 80 was urgently driven there after not from what they wanted.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 25 May 2021 08: 59
        +16
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Under the Soviet Union, any information kept secret was

        And a secret exclusively for citizens of the USSR! ATAVKR "Ulyanovsk" was not laid yet, and its sketch and performance characteristics could already be viewed in the Lloyd's Register reference books!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 May 2021 12: 56
          +4
          Quote: Serg65
          And a secret exclusively for citizens of the USSR! ATAVKR "Ulyanovsk" was not laid yet, and its sketch and performance characteristics could already be viewed in the Lloyd's Register reference books!

          Uh-huh ... insanity: information about the USSR publicly available abroad in the USSR itself was practically inaccessible. It is precisely because of the information about Soviet weapons that all sorts of "Jains" and other reference books in the USSR were stamped with a minimum of particle board.
          When my father in the late 80s saw my book "Soviet Nuclear Weapons" (a compilation of data from Western reference books on the control system of Soviet nuclear forces, the production of SBS, missiles and other nuclear weapons carriers), he was shocked that such was freely sold on the Nevsky ...
          1. anzar
            anzar 25 May 2021 14: 46
            0
            .. information about the USSR generally available abroad was practically inaccessible in the USSR itself.

            I have been subscribed for 10 years (80-90) to the East German "Flieger revue" Very sensibly written off))
            I want to ask, what kind of picture in Anthea's article (949), where the crew is built on the deck, and some kind of wheelhouse hangs in the bow on ropes (?)
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 25 May 2021 14: 59
              +2
              Quote: anzar
              I want to ask, what kind of picture in Anthea's article (949), where the crew is built on the deck, and some kind of wheelhouse hangs in the bow on ropes (?)

              Red and white striped? So this is a mooring barrel. They just moored the SSGN very closely. smile
              Looked at the MO website - this is "Rehearsal of the parade of ships of the Northern Fleet and a military-sports festival at the Severomorsky roadstead."
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 26 May 2021 06: 18
                +3
                Quote: Alexey RA
                They just moored the SSGN very closely.

                Or the current nailed ...
    3. Hagen
      Hagen 25 May 2021 06: 55
      +5
      Quote: G17
      First, the new model was brought to mind, mass production was organized and established, and only then the people were pleased with its entry into service.

      And in most cases they didn't say anything at all. You forget that the information policy and information dissemination systems in the USSR were not at all the same as in modern conditions. In the USSR, new weapons, even in the form of a photo, were classified as classified for up to ten years. And not rockets, but even SV armored vehicles. And, frankly, in terms of the level of equipment and skill of use, the CA in the 80s smoothly came to the state of the 90s, if that tells you something. The USSR in different years was a very different entity, and the Union does not need to sing praises for the last 10-15 years. There was a lot of good there, but no less than that from which he himself, not without the help of "friends", fell apart.
      Quote: G17
      That is, there are systemic problems in the military-industrial complex: a lack of qualified personnel and capacities, management problems,

      Here you cannot argue against the truth. This should be especially borne in mind by those who advocate "complete self-sufficiency" of Russia. This is the problem of the military industrial complex !!! And what about the rest of the industry and sectors of the economy ?! So we can’t do without foreign trade .... And the fact that, given the existing internal problems and external sanctions, we manage to develop new equipment and technologies, and not only in military production, inspires some restrained optimism. Of course, I would like everything at once. And the Lunar program, and the Armata on the conveyor, and the SMP, interrupting Suez ... But miracles do not happen, therefore we move slowly, step by step, taking into account the lack of resources and funds ... As Peter Romanov said - rejoice in the little, and big will come ...
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 25 May 2021 13: 02
        +6
        Quote: Hagen
        In the USSR, new weapons, even in the form of a photo, were classified as classified for up to ten years. And not rockets, but even SV armored vehicles.

        On what our propaganda was burning. In our country, the nomenclature of equipment of the Armed Forces allowed to be shown lagged behind by 10-15 years. What have we seen in the official propaganda? Bald T-72, D-30, 2S3, MiG-23, Mi-8, the fleet has projects 61 and 1134. And on the other side, colorful photos and videos of Abrams, Apaches, F-15 and all sorts of "Nimitzs" with "Ticonderogs".
        1. Hagen
          Hagen 25 May 2021 14: 05
          +7
          Quote: Alexey RA
          In our country, the nomenclature of equipment of the Armed Forces permitted for display was 10-15 years behind.

          In those days, two magazines were strikingly different, seemingly of the same direction - "Foreign Military Review" and "Soviet Military Review". The first one was always keenly interested, the second did not attract any attention due to the lack of practical information.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 25 May 2021 14: 12
            +6
            Quote: Hagen
            In those days, two magazines were strikingly different, seemingly of the same direction - "Foreign Military Review" and "Soviet Military Review". The first one was always keenly interested, the second did not attract any attention due to the lack of practical information.

            It was necessary to make "Sovetskoe Voennoye Obozreniye" also "based on materials from the foreign press" - then the magazines would be equally interesting. smile
            1. George Davydov
              George Davydov 25 May 2021 19: 00
              0
              Probably, this is the essence of the policy of glasnost and perestroika, aimed at lowering the feeling of security of the Soviet people and the hope for Western correctness, which gave rise to the belief in sagging to the west under the slogan - if only there was no war. And even then the cold war was replaced by a hybrid, where ideological propaganda based on anti-communism was gaining momentum. Yes, and the main ideologues of perestroika, Yakovlev, admitted after the victory that he had fought against communism almost from an early age. And if the fascists were against communism, then these anti-communists were on the same ideological position. Or is it not so?
    4. Cruorvult
      Cruorvult 25 May 2021 07: 15
      +1
      Lies about "it was good then, but now everything is bad." A good example of the Su-27, the first flight in 1977, and entered service already in the 90th. Well, or you can read Apukhtin about the Hammer / Boxer, which the USSR could not master.
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 25 May 2021 07: 54
        +9
        It looks more like publishing about "successes" with different kinds of "zircons-poseidons", the authorities want to increase their tightness in the rapidly dividing into "rogue" (of which there are more and more) and "successful" (of which less and less) people in Russian society, wants to "hurray patriotically" to cover up the eyes of citizens so that they, behind a veil of tears of emotion, do not see their beggarly salaries, prices for food, housing and communal services, all social guarantees under various pretexts are removed and hung on citizens, etc. so as not to noticed "no man's palaces", "fur storages", "golden roofs", yachts the size of a destroyer and other "necessary for life attributes" "successful" - "those whom our state should (according to the president) protect", because they can be lured away to other countries...
        1. The comment was deleted.
    5. lucul
      lucul 25 May 2021 08: 43
      .
      Under the USSR, everything was done differently, more seriously, according to the state. First, the new model was brought to mind, mass production was organized and established, and only then the people were pleased with its entry into service.

      Yeah, and as a result of such a policy, we lost the Cold War miserably. Simply because we were secretive, and the enemy thought that we had nothing at all, therefore he was insolent beyond measure, and the diplomats had nothing to argue with during the negotiations, they did not know anything about secret developments and weapons.
      1. Kalmar
        Kalmar 25 May 2021 09: 12
        +8
        Quote: lucul
        Just because we were secret, and the enemy thought that we had nothing at all, and therefore he was insolent beyond measure.

        Even in those days, the enemy did not get information about our military potential from the free press, but from more reliable sources. He had no illusions about "we have nothing at all": the same Aegis (which cost the United States a pretty penny), for example, was a direct response to the threat from the Soviet anti-ship missiles.
    6. Serg65
      Serg65 25 May 2021 09: 03
      +8
      Quote: G17
      Under the USSR, everything was done differently, more seriously, according to the state.

      what Global rocket GR-1, parade on May 9, 1965?
      1. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 25 May 2021 13: 40
        +6
        Quote: Serg65
        Quote: G17
        Under the USSR, everything was done differently, more seriously, according to the state.

        what Global rocket GR-1, parade on May 9, 1965?


        Thin. won't understand ... :)
    7. Barberry25
      Barberry25 25 May 2021 14: 21
      +2
      laughing no .. it's just that our "experts" have a memory like a fish and they don't remember that from the time they announced the development, they took it into service quite a lot ...
    8. Skipper
      Skipper 27 May 2021 16: 30
      0
      Why bragging? Because they use the demonstration method to the fullest. To avoid a hypothetical war, you need to grab more and demonstrate to the enemy your potential, so that this enemy does not have false illusions of his military superiority. Otherwise, the enemy intelligence will work badly and the leadership, on the basis of false data, will absorb the illusion that it is possible to bang across Russia and nothing will happen to us for it. So why do it so that the enemy is mistaken and mistakenly attacked our country, after which there will be victims from both sides in any case. Here's what to avoid these victims .. first of all ours and to prevent a hypothetical war, there is a method of demonstration and intimidation.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 25 May 2021 06: 06
    +7
    Zircon, did not enter service, but it's a good thing. Everything is clear, what is not clear here.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 25 May 2021 06: 31
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      good thing

      And when ... and where did you get to know this product?
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 25 May 2021 06: 42
      -1
      Quote: parusnik
      Zircon, did not enter service, but a good thing

      The people rejoice! ...
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 25 May 2021 08: 46
        +2
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        The people rejoice! ...

        Is Nikolaitch crying?
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 25 May 2021 09: 41
          +2
          Quote: Serg65
          Is Nikolaitch crying?

          Nikolaitch is watching!
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 25 May 2021 09: 49
            +3
            And how ... observations?
            1. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 25 May 2021 11: 10
              +2
              Quote: Serg65
              And how ... observations?

              It is still too early to draw unambiguous conclusions!
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 25 May 2021 12: 06
                +5
                Quote: Nikolaevich I
                It is still too early to draw unambiguous conclusions!

                soldier Got it, we sit and wait! drinks
  5. Sentinel-vs
    Sentinel-vs 25 May 2021 06: 08
    +6
    Quote: Flashpoint

    So what is the article about?

    Free analytics ...

    Earning money. Just bussines.
  6. Normal
    Normal 25 May 2021 06: 24
    +10
    Moreover, the main thing is not even "Zircon".

    Absolutely.
    The main thing is to convince everyone that everything is fine.
    Weapons (which of course have no analogues) are being developed and are about to be (or even already) put into service, mastered in mass production and in quantities that amaze the imagination will go to the troops (hello to Armata).
    In 3-5 years the theme will be worn out, the enthusiasm will be forgotten, the heat of jubilation among the masses will weaken. Then a new simulacrum will be launched into circulation and everything will start from the beginning.
    This may continue indefinitely. Nearly. Until you run out of money, the naivete of the man in the street, or the life span of the main ideologue, the substitution of endless promises for real business.
    1. Evil troll
      Evil troll 25 May 2021 06: 29
      -8
      Yes, yes, these are all cartoons.
      1. Normal
        Normal 25 May 2021 07: 17
        +6
        Well, what are you - what are you.
        There were no cartoons.
    2. lucul
      lucul 25 May 2021 08: 48
      -6
      The main thing is to convince everyone that everything is fine.

      Yes, yes, yes, it’s the Iron Dome, right? )))))
      1. Normal
        Normal 25 May 2021 09: 02
        +3
        Quote: lucul
        Iron dome

        Exactly.
        That is the case in the elderberry garden, and in Kiev, uncle ..., what kind of "uncle" is the Maidan.
      2. Asad
        Asad 25 May 2021 12: 08
        +3
        And what about the iron dome? What system would cope with thousands of primitive missiles?
    3. Barberry25
      Barberry25 25 May 2021 14: 22
      -3
      laughing these are the same simulacra as you shouted the same thing about the S-10 400 years ago
  7. Pravodel
    Pravodel 25 May 2021 06: 55
    +1
    RIA TASS in its material posted a statement by the Russian Ambassador to the United States Anatoly Antonov that "successful tests of the complex give confidence to Russian diplomats in negotiations with the Americans on arms control"

    This remark is not clear at all. As you know, the best assistance to diplomats in persuasion is always provided by a well-armed and valiant army. Therefore, it is completely incomprehensible why our zircons should not be an argument in convincing the Americans in the negotiations? The statement of our ambassador to the United States is just right.
  8. Doccor18
    Doccor18 25 May 2021 07: 02
    +4
    ..and if there were no "Zircons"? Did our diplomats mumble something in the corners? 

    Well, why, the possession of effective weapons has always added political points to any negotiations.

    The declared flight range of the Zircon is from 500 to 1000 kilometers, it is not entirely clear what to do with such a missile at the "pistol" Baltic and Black Sea distances.

    As for the Baltic and Black Seas, the coastal placement of the Zircons would be more appropriate for them. 

    Something with the author's logic?
    It is not needed on ships, because the water area is "pistol", but on the shore it will go ...

    Moreover, the main thing is not even "Zircon". The main thing is the carriers of "Zircon", capable of performing combat missions in different parts of the oceans.
    Many argue that the ocean-going fleet for Russia is an unnecessary burden, but this Fleet must somehow miraculously perform its tasks in "different parts of the world" ...
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 25 May 2021 08: 45
      +7
      Quote: Doccor18
      Many argue that the ocean-going fleet for Russia is an unnecessary burden, but this Fleet must somehow miraculously perform its tasks in "different parts of the world" ...

      good Golden words!
    2. Kalmar
      Kalmar 25 May 2021 09: 08
      +1
      Quote: Doccor18
      Something with the author's logic?
      It is not needed on ships, because the water area is "pistol", but on the shore it will go ...

      There is a certain logic: due to the small size of the water area, the anti-ship missiles will completely reach those ranges from the shore at which it is possible to issue the control center. At the same time, the coastal installation is easier to disguise and protect (say, a submarine will definitely not sink it with a torpedo), and its cost will be lower.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Doccor18
        Doccor18 25 May 2021 09: 48
        +5
        Quote: Kalmar
        At the same time, the coastal installation is easier to disguise and protect (say, a submarine will definitely not sink it with a torpedo), and its cost will be lower.

        I agree.
        Only from the Polish border is only 25 km. from the base in Baltiysk. And enemy artillery, if something happens, is capable of destroying many objects in the Kaliningrad region in the shortest possible time. And Zircon in size is far from X-35 Uranus ...
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 25 May 2021 09: 51
          -3
          Quote: Doccor18
          Only from the Polish border is only 25 km. from the base in Baltiysk

          This myth has always been interesting to me .... what kind of artillery will fire at Baltiysk right from the border line?
          1. Doccor18
            Doccor18 25 May 2021 10: 34
            +5
            Quote: Serg65
            This myth has always been interesting to me .... what kind of artillery will fire at Baltiysk right from the border line?

            Why a myth?
            What will prevent the enemy's self-propelled artillery from quickly concentrating in the 10 km-th border strip teeming with roads, copses, small settlements and delivering a strike?
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 25 May 2021 10: 48
              0
              Quote: Doccor18
              What will prevent enemy self-propelled artillery from quickly concentrating in the 10 km-th border strip

              ACS Paladin firing range with an active-rocket projectile of 30 km ... i.e. NATO artillery brigade should be IMPRESSIVELY concentrated FIVE kilometers from the border! This is real? Moreover, there are not so many paved roads that can withstand 36-ton self-propelled guns in that area, the rest are sandy and unpaved.
              1. Doccor18
                Doccor18 25 May 2021 11: 31
                +2
                Quote: Serg65
                Moreover, there are not so many paved roads that can withstand 36-ton self-propelled guns in that area, the rest are sandy and unpaved.

                Crabs are now on a South Korean chassis, so their mass, in my opinion, is higher, something like 50 tons. There are not very many paved roads, you are right, but making a quick march of several dozen cars along two or three roads cannot be an impossible task either.
                How do you do it discreetly? The effect, I think, may be in speed and surprise, the distances are very small ... And if the MLRS and the Air Force strike initially, then there will be no problems at all for the successful concentration of artillery ...
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 25 May 2021 13: 18
                +5
                Quote: Serg65
                ACS Paladin firing range with an active-rocket projectile of 30 km ... i.e. NATO artillery brigade should be IMPRESSIVELY concentrated FIVE kilometers from the border!

                Braniewo is ideal. Railway station, to Baltiysk only 29 km.
                And if you attract the Germans, then their PzH 2000 can be put further away.
                Well, do not forget about the long-range MLRS / PU OTR.
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 25 May 2021 14: 06
                  +3
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Braniewo is ideal. Railway station, to Baltiysk only 29 km.
                  And if you attract the Germans, then their PzH 2000 can be put further away.

                  Well, if you gouge out the eyes of the entire 11th corps and fill the ears with lead, then yes, then the end of Baltiysk, I agree!
        2. Kalmar
          Kalmar 25 May 2021 10: 07
          0
          Quote: Doccor18
          Only from the Polish border is only 25 km. from the base in Baltiysk

          If the "Zircon" really flies 1000 km, then there is no need to keep it near the naval base and in general at the very coastline. So, in principle, it is possible to hide it from artillery. In any case, we keep the Iskander there somehow.
          1. Doccor18
            Doccor18 25 May 2021 10: 28
            +5
            Quote: Kalmar
            In any case, we keep the Iskander there somehow.
            We keep it, somehow ... But when the order for 120 Crabs and 56 Khimars is closed, work at the air defense of the Kaliningad region will be overwhelming ...
            Otherwise, I agree.
            1. garri-lin
              garri-lin 25 May 2021 20: 11
              +1
              And how does this relate to ground-based Zircon PUs? In the case of hipish, the work of ships in the Black and Baltic Seas will be above the roof. An elementary balance of power is not in our favor. Several dozen anti-ship missiles from the shore will be of great help. But how to ensure their deployment is a separate question. But quite doable. In addition to air defense cover, there is also a camouflage. Dispersion. So, if you wish, you can implement it. And there is a need for this. Again, the balance of power at sea is not in our favor.
      3. garri-lin
        garri-lin 25 May 2021 20: 03
        0
        Eco has minus you. Iksperdyy pancake minusers.
    3. PPD
      PPD 24 July 2021 10: 21
      +1
      And what about the author's logic?
      Normal, clearly showing that in the intricacies and trifles he is not Copenhagen at all. His main task is to make a mess. Zircon - dissatisfied, light fighter - Baba Yaga against. Armata is generally fu.
      Zircon is a replacement for Granites, and they also flew 500 km for themselves.
      Although in reality there are 40 km of launches in the fleet.
      And then the radio horizon. And then only over-the-horizon target designation. How to direct now? Not in the know the pistol at the temple is now being practiced or not? Massively and regularly, definitely not. What a strange opinion that Zircon is not needed on ships, but only on the shore? Should the Navy perform tasks at sea?
      Or will we fight further from the berths, no, no? The speed of Zircon leaves no chance at all for the air defense of enemy ships, there is only interference not to divert. But in order to understand this, you need to understand at least a little bit in the principles of operation of the air defense system. Etc.
  9. Radikal
    Radikal 25 May 2021 07: 13
    +6
    Quote: G17
    The author correctly noticed a bad tendency - the Russian authorities constantly boast of "Armats", "Boomerangs", "Zircons", "Sarmats" or Su-57, despite the fact that none of these samples have been brought to mind. The second bad point: all of the above should have entered service in 2015-2016. (which now they prefer not to remember). That is, there are systemic problems in the military-industrial complex: a lack of qualified personnel and capacities, management problems, many enterprises in astronomical debts to banks, etc. They also prefer not to remember this, spinning cartoons with "miracle weapons" for us. Under the USSR, everything was done differently, more seriously, according to the state. First, the new model was brought to mind, mass production was organized and established, and only then the people were pleased with its entry into service. That is, they said, they did it. The current authorities, without bringing anything to mind, are in a hurry to wishful thinking. Looks (sorry for the vocabulary), like a cheap show-off.

    This is not a show-off, it is much worse - this is a profanation with imitation!
    Demagoguery, projection, suppression of cardinal problems in all spheres of the country's life, and of course the golden calf - this is the current ideology (although some publicly lament that it does not exist, but it exists, and is carefully masked) of the political class of the Russian Federation. sad
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 25 May 2021 08: 44
      -1
      Quote: Radikal
      This is not a show-off, it is much worse - this is a profanation with imitation!

      This is war, Mr. Radical! Now she's like that, so you have to get used to it!
      Quote: Radikal
      concealment of cardinal problems in all spheres of the country's life

      You, as the mouthpiece of the next Perestroika, I hope to publicize these problems?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 25 May 2021 13: 19
        +1
        Quote: Serg65
        You, as the mouthpiece of the next Perestroika, I hope to publicize these problems?

        "Prosector of Perestroika". smile
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 25 May 2021 14: 07
          +4
          Quote: Alexey RA
          "Prosector of Perestroika".

          hi Sorry, but I don't see the light ... bully
  10. Fedorovich
    Fedorovich 25 May 2021 08: 28
    0
    So it seems that no one makes a wunderwaffe out of Zircon.
  11. smaug78
    smaug78 25 May 2021 08: 31
    +1
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    The British aircraft carrier that entered the Black Sea is a tasty prey for Zircon.
    Why would he go there? To please you?
  12. Serg65
    Serg65 25 May 2021 08: 41
    +4
    It even reaches the point of logical absurdity. For example, RIA TASS in its material posted a statement by the Russian Ambassador to the United States Anatoly Antonov that “successful tests of the complex give confidence to Russian diplomats in negotiations with the Americans on arms control
    .
    With a kind word and a gun, you can accomplish much more than just one kind word! An old American saying!
    the end of the tests "Zircon" is unknown

    And this is logical!
    According to the Ministry of Defense, three launches were carried out, two at a surface target, one at a ground target. That's not a lot. It can even be said, frankly not enough to speak of complete and unconditional success.

    This is only from Gorshkov! And before Gorshkov, 11 more firing sessions ...
    Small missile boats and ships, which theoretically can launch "Zircons" (projects 22800, 21631, 11661), are unlikely to get them into service

    Project 20385 definitely! Project 22800 will receive a truncated version.
    Agree, there is no need for a coastal ship to carry serious anti-ship missiles. Especially in the Baltic and Black Sea

    From what? The Black Sea Karakurt may well use Zircon in the Tartus region. And the Balts have the opportunity to drown the foe in Kattegat and Skagerrak!
    So far, the Zircons protect about the same as the Poseidons. At the level of information warfare.

    And it is not bad enough to protect, in which century is the United States in the role of catching up with steel? And this, though small, is already a victory!
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 25 May 2021 09: 06
      +4
      Quote: Serg65
      With a kind word and a gun, you can accomplish much more than just one kind word!

      Provided that the pistol is in hand or at least in your pocket. And if he is "in the village with his grandmother," then his influence on the course of negotiations is not particularly great. This means that the "Zircons" must at least be adopted for service first. I'm not even talking about serial production.

      Quote: Serg65
      This is only from Gorshkov! And before Gorshkov there are 11 more firing sessions ...

      It's still not enough. Bulava was launched almost 40 times. And this despite the fact that technically "Bulava" is nothing special, just some rethinking of existing solutions. And "Zircon", in theory, is stuffed with innovations to the very nozzles.

      Quote: Serg65
      From what? The Black Sea Karakurt may well use Zircon in the Tartus region. And the Balts have the opportunity to drown the foe in Kattegat and Skagerrak!

      And who will the Balts be drowning there? Polish minesags? And who will give them the CU: there is darkness in this area of ​​extraneous ships, it will not work from such a distance to find and recognize the target. In the area of ​​Tartus, "Karakurt" with their air defense / anti-aircraft defense is unlikely to live to see the possibility of someone zhakhut.

      Quote: Serg65
      And it is not bad enough to protect, in which century is the United States in the role of catching up with steel?

      So far, all this is happening only in the minds of patriotic citizens and mysterious Western experts - the very ones who are in perpetual panic from our "has-no-analogues-in-the-world." More this "protection" is not manifested in anything.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 25 May 2021 09: 47
        0
        Quote: Kalmar
        Provided that the pistol is in hand or at least in your pocket. And if he is "in the village with his grandmother," then his influence on the course of negotiations is not particularly great

        But how to say, Khrushchev's expression "we make ICBMs like sausages" influenced the mitigation of the Cuban missile crisis!
        Quote: Kalmar
        Bulava was launched almost 40 times. And this despite the fact that technically "Bulava" is nothing special, just some rethinking of existing solutions.

        laughing Not a feeble rethinking, it's the same as crossing an eagle with a cormorant! Comparing Mace with Zircon is not serious at all!
        Quote: Kalmar
        And who will the Balts be drowning there? Polish minesags?

        Well, if only Polish minesags remained in the NATO joint fleet, then they too ... why not?
        Quote: Kalmar
        in this area of ​​extraneous ships darkness, it will not be possible to find and recognize the target from such a distance.

        My dear people, at the "X" hour all outside ships will skerry through the ports! Large cargo traffic during the war, these are fairy tales for the layman!
        Quote: Kalmar
        In the area of ​​Tartus, "Karakurt" with their air defense / anti-aircraft defense

        laughing For the worries of the "local admirals" about air defense / anti-aircraft missile defense for missile boats, even the residents of Burkina Faso are aware of it !!!! What kind of air defense and even more so an anti-aircraft defense do you want to contemplate on a missile boat ???
        Quote: Kalmar
        So far, all this is happening only in the minds of patriotic citizens and mysterious Western experts.

        By no means, this gives a good chance for the American generals to beg additional funding from Congress for the development of new weapons and safely cut these money. But the allocated funding creates a ghostly illusion about its superiority ... and this is in our hands!
        1. Kalmar
          Kalmar 25 May 2021 10: 01
          +2
          Quote: Serg65
          But how to say, Khrushchev's expression "we make ICBMs like sausages" influenced the mitigation of the Cuban missile crisis!

          So they almost did it, and the Americans understood it.

          Quote: Serg65
          Not a feeble rethinking, it's the same as crossing an eagle with a cormorant!

          I mean, there is nothing particularly breakthrough about Bulava. We made solid-propellant missiles before, we made SLBMs before, in Bulava they simply crossed one with the other. Not that it was quite simple, but there is nothing revolutionary about it either. "Zircon" in this regard is completely different, if you believe the official statements.

          Quote: Serg65
          Well, if only Polish minesags remained in the NATO joint fleet, then they too ... why not?

          Firstly, they are still there to find, to make out. Secondly, it hurts greasy.

          Quote: Serg65
          My dear people, at the "X" hour all outside ships will skerry through the ports! Large cargo traffic during the war, these are fairy tales for the layman!

          Do not make me laugh. The experience of the Second World War shows that nothing of the kind. Plus, the war is not always global. And on the topic of local conflicts, one can always recall the same Iranian-Iraqi mix, where the Americans could not use their "Harpoons" at the maximum range just for fear of catching neutrals.

          Quote: Serg65
          What kind of air defense and even more so an anti-aircraft defense do you want to contemplate on a missile boat ???

          Well, it remains for enemy submarines and planes to explain that attacking a defenseless boat is not like a man. In the meantime, this idea has not been rooted in their minds, it is better not to send RTOs to where no one can properly cover them.

          Quote: Serg65
          By no means, this gives a good chance for the American generals to beg additional funding from Congress for the development of new weapons and safely cut these money.

          Well this is a double-edged sword. Our generals also have great respect for cutting denyuzhek into "confronting the damned murikants". Well, the topic of a super-wunder-waffle, which at once will zero the entire American military potential, is in great demand among the Russian man in the street, so that the budgets here can be mastered in almost any quantity - the people will understand, forgive and encourage.
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 25 May 2021 10: 29
            +3
            Quote: Kalmar
            So they almost did it

            There were only 4 of them for that coin for the whole Union!
            Quote: Kalmar
            The experience of the Second World War shows that nothing of the kind

            what June 22 Baltic and Black Sea swarming with merchant ships?
            Quote: Kalmar
            you can recall the same Iranian-Iraqi batch, where the Americans could not use their "Harpoons" at the maximum range just for fear of catching neutrals.

            For example, I cannot even think of such a local conflict for Russia as the participation of the Americans in the Iranian-Iraqi mix!
            Quote: Kalmar
            Well, it remains for the enemy submarines and planes to explain that attacking a defenseless boat is not like a man

            Before committing a man's act and attacking with a WHOLE submarine and an airplane on a missile boat, this boat needs to get unnoticed to the very shore (and if it nevertheless made its way to the shore itself, then what for her MRK as a target, when the targets are much more important than some other boat?), and the plane to overcome the zonal coastal air defense! MRK is a large coastal boat! COASTAL !!!!!!
            Quote: Kalmar
            Well this is a double-edged sword.

            Yes, even about six, the result is the same!
            Quote: Kalmar
            Our generals also have great respect for cutting denyuzhek into "confronting the damned murikants".

            Surnames, amounts of money ??? About the palace is not worth it!
            Quote: Kalmar
            Well, the topic of a super-wunder-waffle, which at once will reset the entire American military potential, is in great demand among the Russian man in the street.

            I agree, people are always glad to be deceived .... If tomorrow is a war, if tomorrow is a campaign !!!
            Information warfare in modern realities is much more effective than the classical one, and at times cheaper!
            Quote: Kalmar
            budgets here can be mastered in almost any quantity

            what How do you look at the fact that if the Russian Navy had a personnel of 450 thousand people, its budget would be 12 percent of the total budget of the RF Ministry of Defense and would have armed with 160 surface ships of the ocean and far sea zones, 83 SSBNs, 113 MAPLs and 254 Diesel-electric submarines?
            1. Kalmar
              Kalmar 25 May 2021 10: 45
              0
              Quote: Serg65
              For example, I cannot even think of such a local conflict for Russia as the participation of the Americans in the Iranian-Iraqi mix!

              Well, since 2008 they fought with the Georgians, tried to drown their boats. There is a version that one of the anti-ship missiles missed and fell not far from the neutral ship - there was almost a confusion.

              Quote: Serg65
              Before committing a man's act and attacking with a WHOLE submarine and an airplane on a missile boat, this boat needs to get unnoticed to the very shore

              The state of the Russian PLO, even near large naval bases, has already been described - everything is sad. In Tartus, it is even more difficult to count on it, so the above maneuver is quite feasible. As for "why" - this is a separate question; as an option - carefully remove the MRK so as not to interfere. Then you can tell everyone that he was blown up by an old mine.

              Quote: Serg65
              MRK is a large coastal boat! COASTAL !!!!!!

              This is you talking about "Buyan", which is probably what it is. The 22800 is positioned as a ship for operations on the high seas, in BMZ (up to 500 miles). And the coastal zone is up to 200 miles, coastal air defense will not help much here.

              If the RTO is constantly clinging to the shore, then why is it needed at all - it's easier to replace it with a coastal missile system.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 25 May 2021 11: 05
                +3
                Quote: Kalmar
                There is a version that one of the anti-ship missiles missed

                Version .... missed ... or didn't miss, fell ... or didn't fall ... VERSION, sir!
                Quote: Kalmar
                The state of the Russian PLO, even near large naval bases, has already been discussed - everything is sad

                laughing Who told you? Corvette commander? The commander of the OVR brigade? IAPL commander? Who!
                Quote: Kalmar
                The 22800 is positioned as a ship for operations on the high seas, in BMZ (up to 500 miles).

                You can position anything and how you want! Realities are very different from fantasy ... alas. BMZ for Karakurt only says that it can go from point A to point B across the open sea without problems, and not that it can prancing at a distance of 500-hundred kilometers from the coast in the open sea as part of a KUG of dissimilar forces!
                Quote: Kalmar
                If he hugs the shore all the time, then why is he needed at all

                More mobile platform!
                1. Kalmar
                  Kalmar 25 May 2021 11: 29
                  -1
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Version .... missed ... or didn't miss, fell ... or didn't fall ... VERSION, sir!

                  Version or not, but the same motor ship "LOTOS 1" showed fragments similar to fragments of "Malachite". At least he was in that area, i.e. the situation when neutral ships find themselves in a combat zone is by no means speculative.

                  Quote: Serg65
                  Who told you? Corvette commander? The commander of the OVR brigade? IAPL commander? Who!

                  There have been more than one article about this on VO. Then, the naval composition of the fleets is known, the types of ships and the characteristics of their weapons are also known. Adding two and two is easy.

                  Quote: Serg65
                  and not that he can, at a distance of 500-hundred kilometers from the coast, prancing in the open sea as part of a KUG of heterogeneous forces!

                  Here in the composition of the forces just can. Just this approach makes sense: "big" ships will provide the missing air defense and anti-aircraft defense, and the Karakurt can, if necessary, supplement their missile salvo with their anti-ship missiles. It is a pity that these "big" NCs are not enough.

                  Quote: Serg65
                  More mobile platform!

                  And what's the point of that mobility, if the platform still rubs near the coast?
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 25 May 2021 12: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: Kalmar
                    This approach makes sense.

                    I agree, it makes sense .. but in this case Karakurt has air defense / anti-aircraft defense, as you noticed!
                    Quote: Kalmar
                    And what's the point of that mobility, if the platform still rubs near the coast?

                    Well, don't tell me ... rub against the coast, this is already 25-40 kilometers, plus the range laughing
                    But seriously .. go find this platform in the Vyborg skerries or the bays of the Kola Bay, or between the Kuril Islands, or in the bays of the South Coast!
                    Although, all modern ships are, by and large, ships of the first strike and, in fact, are disposable ... no one will give to recharge the UVPU!
                    1. Kalmar
                      Kalmar 25 May 2021 12: 31
                      0
                      Quote: Serg65
                      I agree, it makes sense .. but in this case Karakurt has air defense / anti-aircraft defense, as you noticed!

                      There remains a trifle - to build the very "large" fleet, which will give RTOs the opportunity to operate. It seems to be nonsense, but something does not come out yet a stone flower of the proper size.

                      Quote: Serg65
                      But seriously .. go find this platform in the Vyborg skerries or the bays of the Kola Bay, or between the Kuril Islands, or in the bays of the South Coast!

                      So on the shore it will be even more difficult to find it. And certainly no impudent submarine will sit on its tail.

                      Quote: Serg65
                      Although, all modern ships are, by and large, ships of the first strike and, in fact, are disposable ... no one will give to recharge the UVPU!

                      Why suddenly? If you shoot back, crawl back to the conditionally safe zone until the enemy figured out where it came from.
                      1. Serg65
                        Serg65 25 May 2021 12: 41
                        +2
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        Why all of a sudden?

                        There will no longer be this "suddenly", drums with timpani will play ... not time for violins!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        So on the shore it will be even more difficult to find it

                        The habitat of the BRAV brigade is very limited!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        It remains a trifle - to build the same "big"

                        If the next 91st year is not, we will build it.
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        It seems to be nonsense, but something does not come out yet a stone flower of the proper size.

                        Well, I would not call it nonsense ... it costs a lot to restore most of the remaining factories of the military-industrial complex, return them to the State Department of Education and build new factories!
                        What size do you think this flower should be?
                      2. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 25 May 2021 12: 53
                        0
                        Quote: Serg65
                        There will no longer be this "suddenly", drums with timpani will play ... not time for violins!

                        If the ships were really disposable, no one would have put so many expensive equipment on them.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        The habitat of the BRAV brigade is very limited!

                        Well, here's a topic for a separate article. How limited is it in comparison with RTOs (provided that the latter is afraid to leave the coast)? What size areal is needed if BRAV is smaller and relatively easy to mask? Which is easier: build a ship (albeit a small one) or throw in a new concrete road on which BRAV can ride? There are many controversial questions.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        If the next 91st year is not, we will build it.

                        I would like to believe. While everything is moving slowly and sadly.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        Well, I would not call it nonsense ...

                        Forgot to put the label "sad irony". It is clear that in its current form the defense industry complex is very sad: even corvettes are being built for 5-6 years, and there is nothing to say about larger ships.
                      3. Serg65
                        Serg65 25 May 2021 13: 56
                        +3
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        If the ships were really disposable, no one would have put so many expensive equipment on them.

                        The glorious missile cruiser Moscow was designed for 30 minutes of intense combat!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        I would like to believe. While everything is moving slowly and sadly.

                        .... we will slowly descend and have the whole flock! wink
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        which in the current form of the defense industry complex is very sad

                        Compared to 11-13 years old, the difference is huge! If we discard what is on the left and what is on the right, look with a non-politicized look ... now there is a big shift in the defense industry complex!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        corvettes are under construction for 5-6 years

                        "Childhood diseases" of the defense industry complex remain in the past, remember for the same corvettes ... literally two years ago, the Navy put an end to them ... and then once again renews the construction order! Why? Isn't the whole reason in the GEM?
                      4. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 25 May 2021 14: 32
                        0
                        Quote: Serg65
                        The glorious missile cruiser Moscow was designed for 30 minutes of intense combat!

                        I have not seen such calculations, I have a tendency to doubt them strongly.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        Compared to 11-13 years old, the difference is huge! If we discard what is on the left and what is on the right, look with a non-politicized look ... now there is a big shift in the defense industry complex!

                        Compared to the periods when nothing was built at all - yes, there is progress. For the rest: judging by the timing of the laying and (planned) delivery of the same 20380 (5), we build the corvette in about 5 years. It is, of course, sour.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        remember for the same corvettes ... literally two years ago the navy put an end to them ... and then once again renews the order for construction! Why?

                        Because they realized that the adventure from 20386 is rapidly reaching a dead end, and the fleet still needs corvettes. I had to go back to old projects, which had previously been covered up under far-fetched pretexts.
                      5. Serg65
                        Serg65 25 May 2021 14: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        I have not seen such calculations, I have a tendency to doubt them strongly.

                        It's your own business wink 8 minutes to launch 16 Volcanoes and 22 minutes to shoot the rest of the ammunition! Loading Volcanoes in the database will take at least 12 hours ..... will you have those 12 hours? Loading the BC for AK-130 manually by the whole crew for three hours. Loading anti-aircraft missiles to the Fort, the same 12 hours. BK to Ak-630 and Wasp for a couple of hours!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        We build a corvette in about 5 years. It is, of course, sour.

                        The same I would like to bake like pies ...
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        Because they realized that the adventure with 20386 is rapidly reaching a dead end

                        Those. you completely sweep aside the version with GEM?
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        gamble from 20386

                        Mercury was on its own, no one would wait for the weather from the sea, and no one would allow anyone .... here is another problem!
                      6. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 2 June 2021 09: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Serg65
                        8 minutes to launch 16 Volcanoes and 22 minutes to shoot the rest of the ammunition!

                        How many rounds does a typical infantryman carry? Pieces of 300, probably; you can shoot in a minute. It turns out that it is also "designed" for 60s of battle? A volcano salvo is not all that Moskva is capable of: no one has removed air defense / anti-aircraft missile missions from it. You boil it all down to the script "smear everything that is, at once, and then at least the grass does not grow", but this is a special case.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        Those. you completely sweep aside the version with GEM?

                        You voice it, the version, at least completely, then it will be clear whether it is worth sweeping aside or not. So far, it seems that someone wanted to make very good money on the 2038X corvettes, constantly redoing the project in the direction of increasing the cost. At some stage, apparently, it became clear that at such a rate the fleet would remain without BMZ ships at all, and they began to build according to two projects (updated 20380 and 20385), which more or less settled down.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        Mercury was on its own, no one would wait for the weather from the sea, and no one would allow anyone .... here is another problem!

                        No, officially the construction of the 20385 series was curtailed in favor of 20386: they say, the 385 is no longer a cake and is expensive, it is necessary to build immediately using the latest technology - Mercury was positioned in this capacity.
                      7. Serg65
                        Serg65 2 June 2021 13: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        How many rounds does a typical infantryman carry?

                        You see, my friend Squid, unlike an infantryman, you won't put a cruiser in a trench, and you won't call for support in the form of tanks, infantry, or artillery!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        A volcano salvo is not all that Moskva is capable of: no one has removed air defense / anti-aircraft missile missions from it.

                        Those. shot by the Volcanoes and ........ well, give me submarines and planes here? And they will serve it, the harpoons will eat up the entire supply of the air defense ammunition, planes will fly in for the harpoons, and Virginia will hide behind the planes ... just to see if you are burning well!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        this is a special case.

                        Well, yes, quite a special case .... after the battle we hang out the flags "I'm in the house" and calmly go to the base to recharge!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        You voice her version at least in full, then it will be clear

                        Sanctions on imported engines and problems with the creation of domestic engines.
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        officially the construction of the 20385 series was curtailed in favor of the 20386

                        Timokhin and Klimov have read a lot?
                        The head 20385 was laid in 2012, according to the plan, German diesel engines were supposed to be on it, but it happened in March 2014, the Germans closed the shop. The fate of 20380 and 20385 is in question! It is natural to wait for the Kolomentians to be born, not who did not! In April of the same 2014, he received a contract for the development of a new corvette 20386 of the project. The engine of the new project was immediately determined by the GTU, Zvezda hit herself in the chest with the heel of what GTU would do. But by the end of 2015, the Kolomentians, though in pain, gave birth to a ship diesel engine ... and immediately 20380 and 20385 came to life. The Ministry of Defense immediately signed a contract for the construction of five 20380 and three 20385 ..... and not one (except the head) 20386!
                        What is the fate of Mercury, can you tell me?
                      8. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 2 June 2021 13: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Serg65
                        you will not put a cruiser in a trench and you will not call support in the form of tanks, infantry, artillery

                        Quote: Serg65
                        Those. shot by the Volcanoes and ........ well, give me submarines and planes here?

                        And the cruiser is fighting strictly alone or what? It seems to be not the only one in the entire fleet, and the basic aviation has not disappeared anywhere - this is the very support. The task of destroying AB is not the only thing that can come up for him. There may not be a suitable aircraft carrier, then the cruiser will organize air defense, drive submarines, and support (hypothetical) troops.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        It is natural to wait for the Kolomentians to be born, not who did not! In April of the same 2014, he received a contract for the development of a new corvette 20386 of the project.

                        Those. According to your version, they decided this: the domestic power plant for 20385 is delayed, so let's quickly come up with a new corvette project with another (also non-existent) power plant? From the series "I'll buy a new car, otherwise the old gasoline runs out".

                        I will add that not only the corvettes were sanctioned across the throat: both 22350 and various RTOs were seized. And only corvettes rushed to alter - somehow strange. Those. I do not deny that the argument about the GEM could be used as an argument in some armchair intrigues, when 20386 was pushed through, but it does not pull the role of the main reason.
                      9. Serg65
                        Serg65 2 June 2021 14: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        And the cruiser is fighting strictly alone or what?

                        Did you serve in the army? And if you did, then in what position?
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        used as an argument in some armchair intrigues, when 20386 was pushed through

                        What are you all around the bush? Let's do it .... the names of who lobbied! Who received the bribe for this and how much? Who got baksheesh from this project and how much? Surnames, amounts ??? Then it will be a substantive conversation!
                      10. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 2 June 2021 14: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Serg65
                        Did you serve in the army? And if you did, then in what position?

                        Not. And if I do serve, will you give Moskva at least a couple of frigates for reinforcement?
                      11. Serg65
                        Serg65 3 June 2021 07: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        And if I do serve, will you give Moskva at least a couple of frigates for reinforcement?

                        Now serve, and then we'll talk wink
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        give Moskva at least a couple of frigates for reinforcement?

                        My friend, the army and the navy are complete bookkeeping! How long will the cruiser last as long as possible alone? How long does it take for help to come to him? What kind of force should be sent to the cruiser? What is the average speed of ships going to help a cruiser? What is the maximum distance the warrant can provide assistance to the cruiser? How long can a cruiser support its air defense aircraft coming to its aid? When and what rescuers should be sent to evacuate the crew and the cruiser itself? Do you see how many questions the estimated time of the cruiser's combat effectiveness can solve ?!
                        Good luck with your knowledge! hi
                      12. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 3 June 2021 09: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Serg65
                        Now serve, and then we'll talk

                        Ad hominem I got it. Let’s not get involved in demagoguery.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        How long will the cruiser last as long as possible alone?

                        The key point is why alone? The days of lone cruisers are irrevocably a thing of the past; now to throw the same "Moscow" one against a strong enemy (AUG, for example) can either in a fit of stupidity, or out of despair. I am inclined to consider both options as some extremes, after all.
                      13. Serg65
                        Serg65 3 June 2021 09: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        The key point is why alone?

                        The key answer is the ESTIMATED lifetime of the cruiser! Well, in life anything can happen ... it happens to us, and it happens to us!
                        For example ... A friendly visit of Peter the Great and Admiral Chabanenko to Venezuela! And then suddenly the third world war! How long will Peter and Chabanenko last? Or the same Moscow ... she arrived together with Kulakov in Havana, and then the ships split up and Moscow left for Nicaragua .... and?
                      14. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 3 June 2021 09: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Serg65
                        Well, in life anything can happen ... it happens to us, and it happens to us!
                        For instance ...

                        I live in the world of pink ponies and rainbow unicorns)) In which the country's leadership monitors the world situation at least a little and will not send a few RRCs to single round the world if the situation suddenly heats up))

                        And so, of course, everything can turn out very differently. And a situation can easily arise when "Moscow" will not last half an hour or even five minutes. At this point, it remains to be hoped that the naval command is trying to prevent such incidents.
                      15. Serg65
                        Serg65 2 June 2021 13: 21
                        0
                        Well, in the subject ... 23rd Motorized Rifle Regiment of the 8th Guards them. Panfilov's motorized rifle division during the Soviet Union was stationed in the city of Panfilov (now Zharkent) on the Soviet-Chinese border. In case of a Soviet-Chinese conflict, the General Staff of the SA of the USSR allotted the combat life of this regiment in 60 minutes .... 1 hour of combat on very rough terrain !!!!!
                      16. Offliner
                        Offliner 2 June 2021 08: 08
                        0
                        Let's then, according to this logic, make fortress guns instead of tanks and self-propelled guns.
  13. ALARI
    ALARI 25 May 2021 08: 44
    -4
    Well, not in one country it cannot be that everything is good in one place, well, it’s just wonderful, but in the economy, social sphere and domestic politics, failure after failure. Although we were the first to learn how to build Potemkin villages, this cannot be taken away.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 25 May 2021 09: 48
      0
      Quote: ALARI
      we were the first to learn how to build Potemkin villages

      Name at least one Potemkin village? Precisely Potemkinskaya!
      1. ALARI
        ALARI 25 May 2021 10: 09
        -1
        Well, for example, if you have not forgotten there was such a pension reform. Two years ago, we were colorfully told how pensioners will live richly and happily. But we received youth unemployment and the dismissal of those who are 55, so that we did not have time to become pre-retirees. About the size of the pension, it decreased - inflation was not taken into account. Built and built. Now, from the not too distant preferential mortgage, which has led to the growth of the square of housing in my region exactly two times, and those who are pleased with the benefits have taken now, owe more than before the decrease in the percentage on the mortgage. Everything is also beautiful, they reported, but in reality? Aren't these Potemkin villages, everything is beautiful on paper, but in real life the situation is worsening.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 25 May 2021 12: 01
          0
          Quote: ALARI
          Well, for example, if you have not forgotten there was such a Pension reform

          Comrade, I'm talking about the villages of Prince Potemkin !!!!!
          1. ALARI
            ALARI 25 May 2021 12: 08
            +1
            And I mean what this phrase expresses, the varnished facade and the emptiness behind it, comrade.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 25 May 2021 12: 31
              +3
              When was the last time in Thailand?
              1. ALARI
                ALARI 25 May 2021 12: 44
                +1
                I was in Spain, I was in Turkey, but I don’t sew Thailand, I’m not like that)) But I probably understood what you wanted to say - a brilliant tourist area and darkness for the rest and a military dictatorship. So?
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 25 May 2021 14: 21
                  +3
                  Quote: ALARI
                  I probably understood what you wanted to say - a brilliant tourist area and darkness in the rest and a military dictatorship. So?

                  Her, not that ..
                  Quote: ALARI
                  I was in Spain, I was in Turkey

                  what But what about ..
                  Quote: ALARI
                  lacquered facade and emptiness behind it
                  1. ALARI
                    ALARI 25 May 2021 14: 37
                    +2
                    Didn't you tell about Thailand? Why should I go there?
                    1. Serg65
                      Serg65 25 May 2021 14: 52
                      +1
                      Quote: ALARI
                      Didn't you tell about Thailand? Why should I go there?

                      And to discuss with the Thais joint work to undermine the foundations of the capitalist system in the light of the results of the work of the 3rd Congress of the RSDLP?
                      1. ALARI
                        ALARI 25 May 2021 15: 02
                        +1
                        Are you a Jew, I see?
                        Quote: Serg65
                        Quote: ALARI
                        Didn't you tell about Thailand? Why should I go there?

                        And to discuss with the Thais joint work to undermine the foundations of the capitalist system in the light of the results of the work of the 3rd Congress of the RSDLP?

                        Funny))
                      2. Serg65
                        Serg65 26 May 2021 06: 14
                        +2
                        Quote: ALARI
                        Are you a Jew, I see?

                        No, come on .... you are looking in the wrong place!
                        Quote: ALARI
                        Funny))

                        What about chito? Thais for revolutionaries will not fuck up? Strange, the Chinese over there in the eighteenth year famously supported the revolution in Russia.
                      3. ALARI
                        ALARI 26 May 2021 07: 58
                        0
                        Will not fail. Mobility and information content has increased, and all sorts of neural networks, you just thought, but everyone already knows everything and leaves.
                      4. Serg65
                        Serg65 26 May 2021 11: 46
                        +2
                        Quote: ALARI
                        Mobility and information content has increased,

                        recourse Yeah, the life of the current revolutionary is hard! Do they even give milk?
                      5. ALARI
                        ALARI 26 May 2021 12: 04
                        0
                        Palm tree half and half with powder.
    2. Kalmar
      Kalmar 25 May 2021 10: 09
      0
      Quote: ALARI
      Well, not in one country it cannot be that everything is good in one place, well, it’s just wonderful, but in the economy, social sphere and domestic politics, failure after failure.

      Well, if all the resources are directed to this very one place, then something like this will turn out. At least for a while.
      1. ALARI
        ALARI 25 May 2021 10: 17
        -1
        And then? Balanced development, like excellent tanks in the army, but lousy air defense, and no matter how super duper they are, with such a skew they are scrap metal targets. So in life, guns instead of oil, passed already at 91.
        1. Kalmar
          Kalmar 25 May 2021 10: 24
          +2
          Quote: ALARI
          And then?

          And then, of course, there are exactly two options: either we level out and find an adequate balance, or everything becomes bad.
          1. ALARI
            ALARI 25 May 2021 10: 29
            0
            Not under the RI, not under the USSR, not now, hands did not reach an adequate balance and do not reach. Everything was postponed, and then it got late.
        2. Serg65
          Serg65 25 May 2021 12: 26
          +4
          Quote: ALARI
          guns instead of oil, passed already at 91.

          In 91, are the guns to blame?
          1. ALARI
            ALARI 25 May 2021 12: 40
            -1
            Not. lack of oil due to guns. No wonder they say and here they say the USSR surrendered for the sake of jeans and gum. The people did not mind, it was true later, but no one thought about it then.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 25 May 2021 12: 45
              +3
              Quote: ALARI
              No wonder they say and here they say the USSR surrendered for the sake of jeans and gum

              Those. haven't you seen it yourself?
              Quote: ALARI
              The people did not mind

              People that drawbar, where to turn, there it came out! In 41 they ate quinoa and wore sackcloths but fought for their homeland, and in 91 they disdained oil scraps and spat on their homeland ... are the guns to blame for this?
              1. ALARI
                ALARI 25 May 2021 12: 59
                -1
                People are tired of cutting oil in queues to wait and walk in a sackcloth. A reasonable question arose - we are working to make cannons (the economy is skewed in favor of Group A and military equipment), and the queues are getting longer and the tickets, I already remember that. Iron itself is not to blame, of course it doesn't care.
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 25 May 2021 13: 07
                  +4
                  Quote: ALARI
                  People are tired of cutting oil in queues to wait and walk in a sackcloth.

                  Here is the answer to the fact that ..
                  Quote: ALARI
                  The people did not mind

                  Quote: ALARI
                  we are working making cannons

                  I agree, you can't steal a gun and you won't get a salary!
                  Quote: ALARI
                  bias of the economy in favor of group A and military equipment

                  Yes, there was a bias ... only in the direction of cooperatives, it was the cohesion of cooperatives and state business executives, together with party functionaries, that became the reason ..
                  Quote: ALARI
                  and the queues are getting longer and the tickets
                  1. ALARI
                    ALARI 25 May 2021 13: 22
                    -1
                    The people were not opposed to changing the reality of standing in lines, to (as he thought) a cap of abundance. The queues began before the permission of the cooperatives. Cooperatives and the transfer of money from non-cash to cash is already a consequence, an attempt to fill the shelves with their help (it turned out, as always, not very much - inflation acceleration). And the reason was not solved instead of the consumer society (the people wanted it), they fed the people breakfast, let's wait for 2000, the food program, there are queues for household items for a couple of years, there are more tank factories than factories for cars.
                    1. Serg65
                      Serg65 25 May 2021 14: 28
                      +3
                      Quote: ALARI
                      The queues began before the permission of the cooperatives.

                      Her, my friend, just after this permission! Food, soap and alcohol began to flow mysteriously from storehouses and trading bases to these very cooperatives!
                      Quote: ALARI
                      there are more tank factories than auto factories.

                      Remove the clamor and cars would saturate the Soviet market! In the 90s, tank factories disappeared, but cars also disappeared ... nonsense?
  14. Kalmar
    Kalmar 25 May 2021 08: 57
    +5
    These are, firstly, Project 971 Schuka-B submarines.

    Well, yes, of course. These boats are not equipped with a VPU, only torpedo tubes. It is very, very doubtful that the "Zircon" was able to be crammed into 650 mm ("Onyx", for example, is thicker).

    Secondly, these are boats of project 949A "Antey".

    None of which have been upgraded for "Caliber" / "Onyx" / "Zircon". Moreover, the newest of the family is already almost 30 years old. While they are modernizing (as shown by "Nakhimov" - this is a long time), it will already be possible to write off.

    The issues of intelligence and target designation are traditionally not even raised.
  15. nonsense
    nonsense 25 May 2021 09: 15
    +5
    Moreover, the main thing is not even "Zircon". The main thing is the carriers of "Zircon", capable of performing combat missions in different parts of the oceans.

    IMHO, of course, but the main thing is to have, together with the carriers of this :) absolute weapon, a reliable global reconnaissance and target designation system for these missiles. Otherwise, what's the use of the declared range of up to 1000 km?
  16. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 25 May 2021 09: 21
    -5
    zircon = a promising weapon, the main striking force is a submarine and there it should be, coastal frigates and cruisers on the oceans can also carry such weapons, missile weapons are developing, we will drown an enemy aircraft carrier with zircon, in no time. very informative article by the respected Roman Skomorokhov
  17. Max PV
    Max PV 25 May 2021 09: 34
    +3
    What really pleases the Zircon is that apart from pictures of the American X-51, blurry still frames from the video, fanart on the topic, and conditional performance characteristics according to the principle of ± 50%, there is no information in the public domain. Not like earlier, when according to the models of weapons adopted in the early tenths, and only recently began to enter the troops, the information was already in the XNUMXs, moreover with photographs, drawings, exact performance characteristics, etc. Unless they merged with the "Calibers", first teaching everyone that the letter "E" in the name means export and having the best range indicators, and then giving out to all sources the range of the export modification that meets the nonproliferation treaties.
  18. Kent0001
    Kent0001 25 May 2021 09: 38
    0
    When will they stop whining? Is work on the rocket going on? Goes on. Rocket Fly? Flies! Are the performance characteristics confirmed? Rather Yes. Is the product being fine-tuned? Yes it goes ........ Th whine, or no one threw on the fan for a long time ?????
    1. Cosm22
      Cosm22 25 May 2021 10: 14
      -1
      Your "rather Yes" needs to be deciphered.
      Is the patient more alive than dead?
      Or rather dead than alive?
      The adjective "rather" has a double meaning.
      And about the confirmation of TTX in more detail, pzh-hundred. With proofs to authoritative official sources of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.
      If there are none, then at least the information from the OBS.
    2. Kalmar
      Kalmar 25 May 2021 10: 16
      +2
      Quote: Kent0001
      When will they stop whining? Is work on the rocket going on? Goes on. Rocket Fly? Flies! Are the performance characteristics confirmed? Rather Yes. Is the product being fine-tuned? Yes it goes ........ Th whine, or no one threw on the fan for a long time ?????

      This "nagging" apparently reflects the level of trust in the authorities. All these "go-fly-confirmed" are just words so far. But in words, everything is always good with us: submarines are silent, missiles are unbreakable, intelligence is all-seeing, incomes are growing, there is no inflation, and so on. And so until reality once again weighs a savory cast-iron slap on the head.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 25 May 2021 21: 28
        -2
        You have a real whining and the rocket is already flying and the tests are in the final phase.
        1. Kalmar
          Kalmar 26 May 2021 08: 45
          +3
          Quote: Vadim237
          You have a real whining and the rocket is already flying and the tests are in the final phase.

          Modestly, I will note that, for example, the Su-57 in the indicated state - is already flying and tests are in the final phase - has been in the last 10 years. This, unfortunately, is not uncommon in our country: we create something interesting, but then it does not go into series for a very long time.
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 25 May 2021 12: 18
    +1
    A new weapon becomes a real factor when its proportion in% becomes at least somewhat noticeable against the background of similar products (in terms of the task being performed) of previous generations.
    And already, in turn, the degree of influence of this factor is determined by the ability to produce such products on a large scale in the foreseeable future.

    In other cases, we will always have a "vanderwaffe" like the "Mouse" tank - which, in the event of some real threat, may play practically no role - not because of weakness or inefficiency, but because of negligible quantities, the specifics of distribution and negligible development of use , relative to other samples (as well as the incommensurable degree of saturation of troops relative to them)
    So all these "Peresvets", "Vanguards", "Zircons" as point products are practically not valuable - their value increases with the deployment of large-scale production.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 25 May 2021 21: 29
      0
      Zircon and Onyx have a launch container of the same size, which means that Zircon can be used from all launchers as Onyx, including the coastal Bastions.
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 25 May 2021 21: 43
        +3
        And this is for him an undoubted "+". I point out that, in contrast to nuclear weapons, conventional weapons are driven by the used series and not "available in and of themselves", since no one has canceled misses, failures, accidents and damage instead of sinking the conventional one. The conditional "Zircon" will become a factor when about 20% of the niche is replaced - until that moment, like many other things, it is just another new piece of van derwaffe. We had a lot of piece Vanderwaffe - titanium submarines, epic ekranoplanes, aircraft-carrying cruisers - but in the event of a real war, it is the samples that actually take out the main burden on their backbone - these are the samples that build the "real" defense capability, not mythical, in which is this and that ..
  21. CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz 25 May 2021 12: 56
    0
    Imet Zirkon is good, but the article has not touched the problem of central control. And here are the big problems.
  22. Radikal
    Radikal 25 May 2021 13: 21
    -1
    Quote: Serg65
    Quote: Radikal
    This is not a show-off, it is much worse - this is a profanation with imitation!

    This is war, Mr. Radical! Now she's like that, so you have to get used to it!
    Quote: Radikal
    concealment of cardinal problems in all spheres of the country's life

    You, as the mouthpiece of the next Perestroika, I hope to publicize these problems?

    How - how - a mouthpiece, and even "perestroika"? belay I hate this word since 1985 ... bully
    And what about the publicity of the problems? It's even funny. Look around you, unless, of course, you are behind the Kremlin wall, or within the Boulevard Ring / Moscow Ring Road - look in the "network", in the metro and other places of mass attraction of citizens, visit, chat. Find out in your environment - unless, of course, it consists of persons like Venediktov, Ch. Khamatova, or I. Rodnina ....
    In general, if desired, information can be obtained using open sources, and by legal means. This is for you to warm up your brain -
    https://sobesednik.ru/obshchestvo/20210521-zabolel-plati-v-seti-prizvali?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 25 May 2021 14: 35
      0
      Quote: Radikal
      In general, if you wish, information can be obtained

      Yes, yes ... I get it all the time ... why should I drive a Prior if my neighbor drives a Ford? There the bourgeoisie ride across Europe, and I'm like a goof to Turkey! Why does a neighbor earn 150 thousand, and I only have 50?
      So can you start with yourself, you see, and life will improve?
  23. jovanni
    jovanni 25 May 2021 13: 23
    +2
    Agree, there is no need for a coastal ship to carry serious anti-ship missiles.
    Yes, hardly everyone will agree. Why not, if there is a shortage of "big boats"? Zircon, it flies far and fast, and the adversary will not matter if he sinks from the "Zircon" launched from a small boat, or from a cruiser. Although from a cruiser, it will probably not be so offensive to sink ...
  24. lopuhan2006
    lopuhan2006 25 May 2021 13: 43
    +2
    The main problem of Zircon is target designation and guidance. The insufficient number of satellites and the absence of target designation aircraft, and the reconnaissance ships, 2 pieces per fleet, are ridiculous.
  25. Barberry25
    Barberry25 25 May 2021 14: 23
    +2
    In general, an article that it's time for Topvar to introduce dislikes on articles
  26. DMi
    DMi 25 May 2021 16: 56
    +2
    Only Gorshkov? And "Admiral Kosatonov"? And "Marshal Shaposhnikov"? Those. the author was mistaken three times when counting surface ships. This is not counting more frigates 11356 and corvettes 20385. In general, this reading of this author can be stopped. Waste of time. There is nothing but distortion in his articles.
    And in one place of the photo for illustration, project 11356 was chosen instead of 22350. It seems that the author does not even know what the ships of the Navy look like.
  27. Radikal
    Radikal 25 May 2021 17: 24
    -1
    Quote: Serg65
    Quote: Radikal
    In general, if you wish, information can be obtained

    Yes, yes ... I get it all the time ... why should I drive a Prior if my neighbor drives a Ford? There the bourgeoisie ride across Europe, and I'm like a goof to Turkey! Why does a neighbor earn 150 thousand, and I only have 50?
    So can you start with yourself, you see, and life will improve?

    To start with yourself, does this mean - to take an example from you? Give an example, if possible in more detail, but seriously, then you are likely to be surprised, angry, indignant - well, or some other range of emotions, but I will give you just one example from history (you of course know the story, you probably had 5 points) , nevertheless, I will inform you that the driving force, the medium on which the Nazis relied, was the layer of shopkeepers. It was they who became the striking force of fascism within the country - Germany. The country with the name - Russia is going along the same path. Slowly but surely.
    PS And what stratum of society do you consider yourself to be? winked This is still a delicate question ...
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 26 May 2021 11: 39
      +2
      Quote: Radikal
      To start with yourself, does this mean - to take an example from you?

      My friend, my expression ..
      Quote: Serg65
      So can you start with yourself, you see, and life will improve?

      generalized and not personal!
      Quote: Radikal
      Give an example, if possible in more detail

      Yes, Che is far to go. The eldest son. personally with my knowledge I entered full-time study at a university in another city, in my second year I stopped subsidizing him by stimulating him to complete self-sufficiency ... I studied during the day, worked in the evenings, nights and on weekends. On the 3rd year for the New Year, my mother and I sent 20 thousand for a New Year's gift. After graduating from university, he works as a PTO engineer and freelancer, has a one-room apartment and an old Ford, bought with his own money ... he is 25 years old.
      Quote: Radikal
      you probably - will be surprised, angry, indignant - well, or some other range of emotions

      laughing I was laughing like that !!!
      Shopkeepers? Shopkeepers, of course? The German workers and peasants could not do this ... purely for class motives! laughing
      NSDAP-National Socialist German Workers Party!
      Hitler comes from a workers 'and peasants' family, I will immediately make a reservation that his father became a minor state official.
      Anton Drexler, founder of the German Workers' Party (predecessor of the NSDAP), one of Hitler's inspirations - a worker!
      Bormann comes from a peasant family, a hired agricultural worker.
      Goebbels comes from a family of workers and peasants.
      Heinrich Müller, the very who..and you Stirlitz, I'll ask you to stay! So he is one of the workers!
      Well, once again about the shopkeepers ... Germany in the 20s and early 30s, this is the poorest European country, trillion dollar stamps, inflation of 2000%! Who is to blame for this? Hitler, a native of the people, well understood the aspirations of the German people and, possessing a good political instinct, realized that the people needed obvious culprits, and not ephemeral fairy tales like ... well, it happened, our fate is! The Nazis very clearly created a myth about who is to blame .... liberals, communists and Jews, these three groups are not some fantasies, they are here, they can be seen, touched, listened to !!
      Among the SA stormtroopers and shopkeepers, there were only a few ... these are former officers, workers and peasants who have been left without work!
      Workers and peasants .... this greatly tarnished the Soviet myth "Workers of all countries unite!"
      Quote: Radikal
      What stratum of society do you consider yourself to be?

      From 100% of a worker-peasant family, a retired officer, I have the 4th grade of an electrician, 3rd grade of a general-purpose machine operator, engineering and economic education ... what class I have, but what class I have, I am a person !!! And don't divide me into 1st and 2nd grade !!!
      Quote: Radikal
      This is still a delicate question ...

      laughing Yes figs wait, you are my delicate!
  28. Gunther
    Gunther 25 May 2021 18: 03
    0
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    It even reaches the point of logical absurdity. For example, RIA TASS in its material posted a statement by the Russian Ambassador to the United States, Anatoly Antonov, that "successful tests of the complex give confidence to Russian diplomats in negotiations with the Americans on arms control."


    logical, to put it mildly, absurd to assert the opposite)))
    negotiations are always successful when you have a weighty club in your hand, and your "partner" only has a fig in his pocket, this is an objective reality.

    «Dagger good for whoever has it, and poorly to someone who does not have it ...
    at the right time". Black Abdullah
  29. zenion
    zenion 25 May 2021 18: 39
    +1
    This is the complete speech of Comrade Stalin about collective farms. Only the word collective farms was replaced by zircons.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 25 May 2021 21: 30
      0
      Zircon Collective Farm.
  30. makmak
    makmak 26 May 2021 12: 57
    0
    Project 22350 frigates. More precisely, the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov
    The rest of the series ships are under construction. Shoigu promised that by 2025 there will be six frigates in service.

    Well, Kasatonov is not a frigate anymore, or is it under construction again?
  31. Conjurer
    Conjurer 26 May 2021 13: 05
    0
    Why did the author write all this? Did you want to dilute the hurray-patriotism? Get money for the volume (a bunch of pictures with postscripts and a bunch of hints on different topics)? Urgently asked for at least something to pile, otherwise the VO readers got bored?
    This does not appeal to analysis - about nothing at all. In addition, the author does not seem to have a clue about the stages of development of MO products and the signs of their completion.
    The same does not pull on proposals for use - if only because the Armed Forces are used in a complex manner, it makes no sense to try to consider even new weapons separately from the rest of the forces and means, such as one in the field should kill everyone.
    Why is all this written?
  32. Skipper
    Skipper 27 May 2021 16: 31
    0
    Quote: G17
    Why bragging? Because they use the demonstration method to the fullest. To avoid a hypothetical war, you need to grab more and demonstrate to the enemy your potential, so that this enemy does not have false illusions of his military superiority. Otherwise, the enemy intelligence will work badly and the leadership, on the basis of false data, will absorb the illusion that it is possible to bang across Russia and nothing will happen to us for it. So why do it so that the enemy is mistaken and mistakenly attacked our country, after which there will be victims from both sides in any case. Here's what to avoid these victims .. first of all ours and to prevent a hypothetical war, there is a method of demonstration and intimidation.
  33. Skipper
    Skipper 27 May 2021 16: 37
    -1
    Quote: G17
    The author correctly noticed a bad tendency - the Russian authorities constantly boast of "Armats", "Boomerangs", "Zircons", "Sarmats" or Su-57

    Why bragging? Because they use the demonstration method to the fullest. To avoid a hypothetical war, you need to grab more and demonstrate to the enemy your potential, so that this enemy does not have false illusions of his military superiority. Otherwise, the enemy intelligence will work badly and the leadership, on the basis of false data, will absorb the illusion that it is possible to bang across Russia and nothing will happen to us for it. So why do it so that the enemy is mistaken and mistakenly attacked our country, after which there will be victims from both sides in any case. Here's what to avoid these victims .. first of all ours and to prevent a hypothetical war, there is a method of demonstration and intimidation.
    1. Devil13
      Devil13 28 May 2021 23: 50
      +1
      It is necessary to brag when it is in a series on serial media.
      When already in the army. And not when they ride around the square.
      The same LRASM or F-35 is already under 1000 in the troops, and they are showing off so actively and for so long?
  34. Devil13
    Devil13 28 May 2021 23: 49
    0
    The author, you again have problems with the materiel. Study her. Neither onyx nor zircon have ever stood on 971 and never will, as on any torpedo boat without a vent.
    And 949 has not yet gone anywhere, they are still with granites
  35. TatarinSSSR
    TatarinSSSR 29 May 2021 10: 27
    0
    Well, of course, a large official and an average official need to justify his swaying in an armchair and attendance at various meetings, not to mention salaries under half a minimum, which means that something needs to be said to the press about the results of his "stormy activities", to create the semblance of success. And the phrase "by 2025 Russia will have an unparalleled wunderwaffeler" is ideal for that. By that year, few people will remember who promised it, another world crisis or pandemic will break out, there will be a hundred excuses - why the wunderwaffler still gallops through exhibitions and parades in the amount of 3 prototypes and before being put into service with the launch of a series, he was as before Mars on foot. And the official has already grabbed the praise of the Kremlin and a prize of a couple of lyams.
  36. Vit_K
    Vit_K 29 May 2021 17: 37
    +1
    //
    The rocket itself is only part of the system. At a minimum, you need to consider the missile-target-target designator triangle. And, basically, the problem is in the data traffic, because the traffic tends to increase as the distance between the target and the weapon decreases. The speed of zircon is several times higher than that of the previous generation rockets, but the speed of data processing, and especially the speed of their transfer, did not increase at all. And the speed of data processing should with a margin ensure the calculation of the probability tree for at least the flight time ahead. Who would explain how this is solved for zircon. The fact that such a computer is not inside her is clear. Well, how then? It turns out that test runs are pseudo ballistics or even just a tracker. Give us your versions, sofas!
  37. The comment was deleted.
  38. meandr51
    meandr51 5 June 2021 20: 15
    0
    In peacetime, the psychological impact of weapons is much more important than the real one. If they scared and prevented the attack, the task has already been completed. At one time, Khrushchev bluffed quite successfully. Then Reagan bluffed successfully. If Hitler had been qualitatively scared in due time, then there would have been no war ... More good and different cartoons!
  39. tezey
    tezey 6 June 2021 14: 03
    0
    Strange, but no one ever said that the Zircon missile system would protect against any threats in our direction. This is really just one of the advanced weapon systems. It will be a good weapon. But any, even the most advanced weapon, becomes really dangerous only in the case of an integrated approach to its operation. I think that our military understands this very well, and one should not pay attention to all sorts of shady statements by incompetent publications.
  40. VasYok
    VasYok 8 June 2021 21: 49
    0
    Do not make me laugh!!! What are the CIRCons in the waste? Do you really think that the overseas owners, who own 80% of the Russian economy, will suddenly allow the manufacture of modern weapons against themselves? (The same applies to ships, tanks, aircraft, space ...)
    Do not blame stupidity. Think sometimes.
    PS. For show (trials and parades), Russia will be allowed to make several products.
    PPS. As far as we know, there are no CIRCons. Instead, Onyx is shown in the trial footage.
    PPPS. I wonder how many more naive people are left who believe in this pseudo-patriotic farce?
  41. alexku69
    alexku69 17 July 2021 18: 01
    0
    For comparison: the R-30 Bulava SLBM was launched 38 times during the tests. Of these, 31 times were successful. Zircon three times. The conclusions are clear, work still remains to be done.


    Or there is simply no zircon ... I understand that I will now cause a storm of enthusiasm from those who like to drink, but ... Zircon is so secret that it seems that it does not exist :)
  42. alexku69
    alexku69 17 July 2021 18: 15
    0
    Quote: VasYok
    PS. For show (trials and parades), Russia will be allowed to make several products.

    What for? Start "onyx" will show (as it was) and enough
  43. alexku69
    alexku69 17 July 2021 20: 50
    0
    Quote: Vit_K
    And, basically, the problem is in the data traffic, because the traffic tends to increase as the distance between the target and the weapon decreases. The speed of zircon is several times higher than that of the previous generation missiles, but the speed of data processing, and especially the speed of their transfer, did not increase at all.

    And what is the "data traffic" for the body traveling in the plasma cloud? At one time BB Pershing-2 had to be "taught" to reduce the speed to two MAXs so that the block's seeker was able to work.
    Have we since then heard something about a solution to the problem of plasma isolation of the projectile? ...
  44. Woland
    Woland 23 July 2021 09: 01
    0
    In one, the author is right, you have to wait for the end of the tests and then knock out the "grandmother"
  45. viktor_ui
    viktor_ui 26 July 2021 08: 10
    0
    Will Zircon fit into the container? And what about a mobile soil wheel complex? In the railway Refrigerator? This is me in terms of possible carriers ...
  46. Astor 27
    Astor 27 26 July 2021 15: 28
    0
    Almost the main problem (which the author did not mention) is the problem of target designation. You can shoot at least 600 km, at least 1 km. The question is: where are we going to "shoot"? Stands on that "Zircon" RGSN with a detection range of kilometers, some way, 000-20. And then how? There used to be the Legend MCRC - more than 50 satellites. Now she is gone - she was replaced by "Liana". Thanks to our outstanding successes in space exploration in general, and comrade. Rogozin, in particular, "Liana" now consists of ... 30 satellites (all passive RTR). At the same time, the satellites of the active radar station are 4 (zero !!!). So after all "Liana" not only works for the Navy, it replaces 0 more systems ("Celina-2" and "US-PU"). By and large, in order to monitor the situation in real time, we need to increase the constellation of satellites by an order of magnitude (2 times). At the moment (according to open data in foreign sources), we can monitor a particular point of the ocean surface for about 10-2 hours a day. No more...
    In the meantime, we can work with "Sunflowers" only on 450 km of the coastal zone. Well, AWACS planes.
  47. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
    tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 1 August 2021 15: 34
    0
    Why, after reading the title of the article, I am 99,99% guessing the author? And even 99,999% I guess the general message of the article ... "All miracles and miracles" (c)
  48. pylon101
    pylon101 14 August 2021 03: 13
    0
    It seems to me that the use of weapons under development in geopolitics is completely normal. It's a tricky game, and successful R&D matters almost more than the weapon itself.
  49. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 18 August 2021 11: 01
    0
    The declared flight range of the "Zircon" is from 500 to 1000 kilometers, what to do with such a missile at "pistol" Baltic and Black Sea distances is not entirely clear. Yes, and ships capable of carrying this weapon are not there, and so far they are not even foreseen.

    Weapons with a maximum range of 1000 kilometers can always be used at both 500 and 400 and 300 kilometers. For the Black and Baltic Seas, it is not necessary to shoot from ships - it is also possible from the shore.
  50. Siegfried
    Siegfried 18 August 2021 17: 51
    0
    The United States fears Zircon not because of the possible use of these weapons by Russia against the US Navy, but they fear a possible "leak" of technology to China, where the missile will receive a Chinese seeker and be integrated into Chinese intelligence and target designation systems. Considering that right now the United States is trying to persuade Russia to freeze the course of rapprochement with China in exchange for the suspension of American mischief against Russia, then Russian bravado about Zircon makes sense.