Military Review

Race for Poseidon

73

Speaking seriously about Poseidon, now we will not raise the question of whether he exists or not. In general, "Poseidon" is such a hefty stone that was thrown into a swamp and went circles on the water in half with ooze, duckweed and frogs that fell under the distribution.


To me personally, the situation is somewhat reminiscent of the SDI program from my youth. It's hard to say what lasers or cannons with railguns are spinning there in low-earth orbit, but you have to react.

So with "Poseidon" about the same happens. Either these Russians have it, or they don't. Questions of delivery, communication, service, management ... And there are even preconditions for what is worth believing. Yes, Belgorod. What he will actually wear - whoever says, everything is classified, as in the best Soviet times.

But you want to feel calm, right?

Here you need to understand the psychology of an ordinary American. Yes, and unusual, in uniform, is also possible.

From time immemorial, America has been far overseas. And during the two World Wars, several bombs fell on the United States from a Japanese plane launched from a submarine. And that's all. You see, the confidence that these floating sheds with planes, pushed far into the ocean, will become a kind of defense outposts.


Yes, they will. And they will be quite effective in this role. And they will be even more effective if they are moved to the enemy's coastline and the planes there will begin to sow reasonable, kind and eternal. Like in Yugoslavia or Iraq.

But what's the point of these aircraft carriers, which consume tens of billions of dollars for their upkeep, if a stupid and almost brainless reptile with a couple of hundred kilotons lurks under the very shore? And just waiting for the command to be demolished by a radioactive wave, say, Texas. Or Florida.


This is the projection of force into the enemy's territory. As an American aircraft carrier, only cheaper. And more practical.

I am sure that those who think about this topic do not feel very comfortable in the USA. I would feel that way. It's uncomfortable.

Therefore, it is quite logical for the American military to continue to be the best and strongest in the world. And it is also desirable to move the front line of the US defense to enemy territory.

This is all in the Cooperative Strategy for the 21st Century Seapower. And this document confirms that the Poseidons still frighten the American military today.

By the way, there is something. Just everything: who said that this "Poseidon" will not close somewhere at the bottom in the Miami Beach area? And he won't ruin the beach season? Yes, apologizing later is good. In the event that there will be someone and in front of whom.

Technique - you know, not a very perfect thing ... You can't get off "Who threw the felt boot on the remote control?"

So, the document very seriously considers the use of APA - autonomous underwater vehicles for various purposes.

Mike Mullen's team behind the Concept did a very good job. And, most importantly, work on the document began in 2006, when the Poseidons were still silent. But even then, American maritime analysts foresaw that such devices would appear. It's just that no one expected Russia to say such a thing.

But American experts believed that the use of multipurpose autonomous underwater vehicles operating completely autonomously or under minimal control would be very promising.

After reviewing the document, other countries of the NATO bloc began to take part in the development. And this is quite logical.

And as a result of the labors, the concept of a certain new marine weapons... And these devices, in the opinion of the participants in the development, could be assigned the following operations:
- conducting anti-submarine defense;
- carrying out mine laying and anti-mine operations;
- reconnaissance;
- support for special operations forces;
- delivery of useful cargo;
- deployment of navigation and hydroacoustic devices, mobile underwater communication nodes;
- conducting oceanographic research in the interests of the Navy.

You see, an automatic minelayer looks very beautiful, quietly and without haste mining the entrance to the South Bay of Sevastopol. Accurate opposite the seaport. Or, somewhere in the Golden Horn Bay, throw something like that ...

Handsomely. But here the picture is slightly spoiled by us. Why there, let's just make a hefty atomic bomb and put it on the shore. Until further notice, just in case. Because the case happens to everyone, here.

In civilized countries, no one has thought of such a nightmare, now they have to invent a hunter for "Poseidons", because the depth is somehow not particularly terrible for this reptile. Maybe shorter.

And everyone began urgently to work on something similar. USA is in the forefront. Well, just out of habit. The US should be the first in and under the waves.

Constructors from the very famous aviation Boeing Corporation is working hard on projects for various underwater vehicles.

Here's Echo Voyager.


Yes, not "Poseidon", but also a rather big device. Its peculiarity is the "snorkel", a hollow mast with a length of 4,8 meters. On the mast there are sensors for the satellite communication system and the ship identification system. But besides this, the mast serves to supply air to diesel generators, which charge the batteries of the apparatus.

In the submerged position, the mast is hidden. In general - "snorkel" - it is still the same in the United States. That is, the device floats up, the mast automatically unfolds and the charging process begins. Then "Echo Voyager" sinks and continues to do business. The battery in the device is lithium-ion, the charge lasts for 2-3 days.

All in all - a diesel-electric underwater drone in all its glory. Competent and functional.


But Boeing also has the Orc program. This project, which is being developed on the basis of the already tested Voyager Echo, is an autonomous underwater vehicle with a larger displacement than Echo.

The Orca project is being developed under the XLUUV (Extra Large Unmanned Underwater Vehicle) program, that is, an "extra-large unmanned underwater vehicle." Zaposeidonilo, huh?

It is planned to equip the Orca apparatus with a completely normal diesel-electric installation. The estimated cruising range is estimated to be about 6500 miles. Every three days, the device will have to float to the surface to recharge the batteries.

The cruising range seems to hint that the "Orca" can sail far away with a variety of purposes. But the need to surface every three days to recharge casts doubt on the military use of the device. Although the developers claim that along with a long cruising range, the device will be able to perform a wide variety of tasks even in the absence of constant communication with the center.

This "Orca" can become a very interesting device. It can, for example, be used as a delivery vehicle for smaller vehicles to research or US operations. fleet... The Orca does not require carrier platforms to operate, it can simply be pushed away from the pier and it will go wherever the program tells it.

The design of the "Orca" is modular, that is, the equipment can be changed in accordance with the tasks. As the developers say, the range of applications is very wide. Let's believe.

Simultaneously with the "Orca", the designers of the US Navy directly within the framework of the LDUUV (Large Displacement Unmanned Underwater Vehicle) project, that is, "Large displacement unmanned underwater vehicle" (in my opinion, the same thing), the "Snakehead" apparatus is being created.

"Snake head" is a new word in the underwater world, the device is planned to be equipped with a power plant based on hydrogen fuel cells. The "Snake Head" will have more than 45 days of autonomy, which is quite an excellent result. And you don't have to float up every three days.

Since "Snakehead" is developed initially by the military, then the "orientation" of the apparatus is appropriate. They plan to launch the apparatus and take it back from submarines of the Virginia and Ohio types or from the shore using special platforms.

It is mentioned that the device can work as a reconnaissance or even an electronic warfare agent. Integration with existing warships is a serious utility-to-use claim. It remains only to make sure that the idea with fuel cells is reliable enough and will allow the apparatus to function for the stated time.

The French are also in the subject. They don't want to be left behind.

Naval Group (yes, that one) is developing a very original D.19 apparatus, which should be launched from submarines from a 533 mm torpedo tube or from the deck of a surface ship using either a crane or the same torpedo tube.

Moreover, the French are going to supply their underwater drone to other countries. For this, in parallel, work is underway on a smaller model, which can be placed on diesel-electric submarines of the "Scorpen" type, which France is building for India and Brazil.

The D.19 has many innovations in its design. New generation rechargeable batteries can provide the vehicle with a speed of up to 15 knots and an autonomy of up to 15 days. It's fast, it's beautiful. The means of navigation and communication, like those of Echo Voyager, are located on a folding mast, only there will be no diesel generators.

Battery charging, equipment change and maintenance of the apparatus are supposed to be carried out on board the carrier submarine.

In order to increase the efficiency of the Suffren nuclear submarine, French engineers are working on the creation of the ASM-X multipurpose underwater vehicle. A six-meter device weighing more than a ton and with a diameter of, of course, 533 mm, is supposed to be fired through a torpedo tube.

The ASM-X provides an extensive compartment for accommodating a wide variety of equipment: a sonar station, distraction jammers, equipment for working with various sensors, communications equipment and even weapons.

Again, lithium-ion batteries will drive the apparatus and power the equipment. The batteries should be enough to provide a range of 110 miles.

China is also not going to lag behind. Our neighbors also have a lot of tasks that autonomous underwater vehicles, which we are working on, can help to accomplish.

In China, there is a "Project 912", within the framework of which underwater vehicles of large displacement are being developed. The PLA fleet plans to use such devices in the South China Sea and the western Pacific Ocean. That is, in areas strategically important for China.

The devices created within the framework of the project are planned to be used for reconnaissance, mining of water areas, mine action and even solving anti-submarine defense tasks.

It is planned to control the apparatus from the onshore control center, and only in the long term the creation of a fully autonomous underwater vehicle, which will work independently, clarifying tasks with the onshore control center periodically communicating.


So what are we seeing? We observe that the leading countries of the world are working on the creation of multipurpose autonomous underwater vehicles. But the main work lies in the field of increasing the speed of navigation and autonomy through the use of special storage batteries and fuel cells. Another expansion of application possibilities.

Of course, it's easier for us. They did everything for us earlier, inventing a terrible nuclear-powered torpedo. What to do, the rest is somewhat more difficult. Small nuclear reactor - yes, it is difficult. But excuse me, is this a novelty? We also had compact nuclear reactors (Romashka, Buk, Topaz, Yenisei) and the Americans (SNAP). They were used in space, it is true, but who forbids using them under water?

Many in the world are not very trusting about the presence of "Poseidons" in Russia, but now this is not the most important thing. The main thing, perhaps, is that today some countries seem to be in the position of catching up with Russia.

Russia seems to have a Poseidon. Not proven, as they say, but there is no evidence to the contrary either. Russia has a carrier boat "Poseidon", "Belgorod". And there will be one more. It would be strange to have two huge boats in order to ... not to do anything with them, wouldn't it?

The United States, France, China will still have to go a long, but interesting way of creating and carriers of autonomous vehicles, launching devices and especially receiving back. We also have something to do in this regard. Nobody says that you can give up and relax.

Two options for the development of events.

First: countries that want to deliver a 200 kiloton nuclear warhead to the shores of a potential enemy will eventually blow up budgets and stop this rather stupid competition.

And then a second option arises: to direct efforts to the study of the world's oceans, where such devices will be very useful.

Overall, история with "Poseidon" can be useful in terms of what will give such a good impetus to the development of underwater technology. Well, he will well pat the budgets of our partners. Which is also not bad.
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 14 May 2021 05: 07
    +9
    But excuse me, is this a novelty? We also had compact nuclear reactors (Romashka, Buk, Topaz, Yenisei) and the Americans (SNAP). They were used in space, it is true, but who forbids their use under water?
    Power is prohibited, or rather the weakness of these reactors.

    First: countries that want to deliver a 200 kiloton nuclear warhead to the shores of a potential enemy will eventually blow up budgets and stop this rather stupid competition.
    And then a second option arises: to direct efforts to the study of the world's oceans, where such devices will be very useful.
    Iron logic - at first the country will overstrain, (though for what?), But then it will rush to explore the world's oceans.
    1. Ren
      Ren 14 May 2021 11: 15
      +4
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      But excuse me, is this a novelty? We also had compact nuclear reactors (Romashka, Buk, Topaz, Yenisei) and the Americans (SNAP). They were used in space, it is true, but who forbids their use under water?
      Power is prohibited, or rather the weakness of these reactors.

      Moreover, it is not
      compact nuclear reactors
      , and RITEG Radioisotope thermoelectric generator. hi
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 14 May 2021 11: 33
        0
        Quote: Ren
        a RITEG Radioisotope thermoelectric generator.
        You are wrong, RITEG works for decay of isotopes, and the above reactors on controlled chain reactionso they are exactly reactors.
        1. Ren
          Ren 14 May 2021 11: 49
          +4
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          You are wrong, RITEG works on the decay of isotopes, and the above reactors are based on a controlled chain reaction, so they are exactly reactors.

          And what type of reactor, how was the heat removed, with what coolant from the core, how was it cooled in space? laughing
          SNAP eng. Systems for Nuclear Auxiliary Power is exactly RITEG, no one has ever put nuclear reactors into space, there is Nuclon as a pilot project of this kind in Russia, read it.
          The electric power of RITEGs does not exceed 200 W. hi
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 14 May 2021 16: 12
            +3
            Quote: Ren
            And what type of reactor, how was the heat removed, with what coolant from the core, how was it cooled in space?
            It's just amazing that in the twenties of the 21st century, not being able to use search:

            The first nuclear reactor used on a spacecraft was the American SNAP-10A [en], created as part of the SNAP program ... ... The thermal neutron reactor used uranium-235 as fuel, zirconium hydride as moderator and sodium-potassium melt as coolant... The thermal power of the reactor was about 40 kW. The electric power provided by the thermoelectric converter ranged from 500 to 650 watts.


            And then self-confidence!
            Quote: Ren
            no one has ever put nuclear reactors into space

            Quote: Ren
            Russian pilot such a project is Nuclon, read it.

            Quote: Ren
            Electric power of RITEGs does not exceed 200 W


            The next nuclear power plant, BES-5 Buk, was used on the US-A radar reconnaissance satellite. The first apparatus of this series was is running October 3, 1970 from Baikonur ("Cosmos-367") ...
            ... The electrical power of the installation was 3 кВт at a thermal level of 100 kW, the maximum service life of BES-5 is 124 (according to other sources - 135) days. The double-circuit installation had a fast neutron reactor BR-5A and a thermoelectric generator, the coolant of both circuits is a eutectic sodium-potassium alloy (melting point -11 ° C [1]), temperature in the first circuit - 700 ° C, in the second - 350 ° C. ..
            Reactor core comprises 37 fuel rods with the smallest possible gap between them. Each fuel element contains three uranium-molybdenum blocks 55 mm long and two beryllium blocks 100 mm long, which form end reflectors. The total mass of uranium is 30 kg, the enrichment in the 235th isotope is up to 90%. The reactor body in the form of a hexagonal prism with a turnkey size of 140 mm is surrounded by a side beryllium reflector 100 mm thick. The reflector can move parallel to each other six beryllium rods - reactor controls[2].

            And so on.
      2. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 14 May 2021 13: 48
        +3
        on an RTG a large underwater vehicle will not float far - even if it is realized, the speed will be unsatisfactory. And the prices for good RITEGs are astronomical ..
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 14 May 2021 15: 01
      +1
      Power is prohibited, or rather the weakness of these reactors.
      right there, they are so small:
      The first nuclear reactor used on the spacecraft was the American SNAP-10A [en], created within the framework of the SNAP [en] program (abbreviated from the English Systems for Nuclear Auxiliary Power). It was installed aboard the 440 kg Snapshot spacecraft launched on April 3, 1965 by the Atlas launch vehicle. It was supposed to carry out flight tests of the reactor within 90 days. The reactor was developed by Boeing for the Air Force and the US Atomic Energy Commission. The thermal reactor used uranium-235 as fuel, zirconium hydride as moderator, and sodium-potassium melt as coolant. The thermal power of the reactor was about 40 kW.
      And its low power, namely electric because of thermoelectric conversion, the reactor is in orbit in a vacuum, and there is no sea water there ... wink , what prevents to heat the seawater through the desalination tank and drive it (more precisely, steam) into the secondary circuit, for the onboard gas turbine, and turn the steam turbine !?
      1. "Buk" - electric power - up to 3 kW., With a heat of 100 kW .;
      2. "Topaz" - thermal power 150 kW., With electric - up to 6,6 kW ..;
      3. "Yenisei" - thermal power, of the order: 115-135 kW, electric, of the order: 4,5-5,5 kW.
      And even now, the capabilities of the technologies of the middle of the last century allow an uninhabited underwater drone to confidently have autonomy: up to 100-130 days, an almost oceanic zone is already, or maybe with a large margin, if we apply the progress in small reactors of today already ...
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 14 May 2021 16: 39
        +1
        Quote: Intruder
        And even now, the capabilities of the technologies of the middle of the last century allow an uninhabited underwater drone to confidently have autonomy: up to 100-130 days, an almost oceanic zone is already, or maybe with a large margin, if we apply the progress in small reactors of today already ..
        Yes, nothing really interferes, but specific reactors are frankly low-power.

        Quote: Intruder
        "Topaz" - thermal power 150 kW., With electric - up to 6,6 kW ..;

        Everything has already been invented, before us. )) The efficiency of a steam turbine is up to 35% for a total of 50 kW on the shaft, it is to creep slowly and sadly wherever it goes, but it's about a huge torpedo with a speed of up to 100 knots! Physics has a 350 kW engine. with a torpedo weight of 2200 kg and a speed of up to 65 knots.

        Quote: Intruder
        And its low power, it is electric because of thermoelectric conversion, the reactor is in orbit in a vacuum, and there is no sea water there .. which prevents the outside water from being heated through a desalination tank and driving it (more precisely, steam) into the secondary circuit, for the onboard gas turbine and turning the turbine steam room !?
        As it is difficult, much simpler is a conventional closed circuit with a capacitor, and the secrecy is higher.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 14 May 2021 16: 45
          +1
          The efficiency of a steam turbine is up to 35% with a total of 50 kW on the shaft, it is to creep slowly and sadly wherever it went, but we are talking about a huge torpedo with a speed of up to 100 knots.
          slowly and surely, within 100 days, not a single battery and fuel do not give such autonomy yet, and why can't he do it, there is no crew ..., the forest is crawling in an economical mode ...!? wink
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 14 May 2021 16: 47
            +3
            Quote: Intruder
            slowly and surely, within 100 days, not a single battery and fuel do not give such autonomy yet, and why can't he do it, there is no crew ..., the forest is crawling in an economical mode ...!?
            What is permissible for a grubby-creeper, then the proud "Poseidon" nekomilfo! laughing
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 14 May 2021 16: 54
              +1
              What is permissible for a grubby-creeper, then the proud "Poseidon" nekomilfo!
              only, our "Yenisei" could successfully plow for almost three years:
              In turn, the Yenisei converter-reactor was developed by the Leningrad Central Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering by order of NPO Applied Mechanics (Zheleznogorsk, Krasnoyarsk Territory) for the Relay geostationary spacecraft of direct television broadcasting. The estimated service life was at least 3 years.
              So far, no one can boast of such autonomy for a low-power reactor ... wink
          2. Intruder
            Intruder 14 May 2021 16: 50
            +2
            As it is difficult, much simpler is a conventional closed circuit with a capacitor, and the secrecy is higher.
            On the Yenisei, there was generally a sodium circuit, even a condenser is not needed there, everything is in the block ...
            In 1992, the United States purchased two Yenisei nuclear power plants in Russia for $ 13 million. One of the reactors, supplied to the USA, was supposed to be used after thorough ground tests in 1995 in the "Space experiment with a nuclear-electric propulsion system."
  2. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 14 May 2021 05: 10
    0
    Suppose the Americans find this Poseidon at their borders, then what?
    To hit it with a torpedo or a depth bomb is fraught with the triggering of a war charge with known consequences, an attempt to get inside is fraught with triggering a self-destruction program ... In general, in any case, a very big headache for the enemy.
    And if it's a snag? ... a false object, and the real Poseidon in a completely different place went to the shores of Florida ... hmm ... brains are warming up.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 05: 51
      +13
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Suppose the Americans find this Poseidon at their borders, then what?

      Destroy
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Hitting it with a torpedo or a depth bomb is fraught with triggering a warhead with known consequences.

      Not at all fraught. An atomic bomb does not detonate :)))))) Only local infection is possible from the fact that a radioactive element is shaken along the bottom
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      In general, in any case, a very big headache for the enemy.

      Exactly the same as the ICBM, or even less.
      Poseidon does nothing that a regular SSBN cannot do. Countermeasures are the same - identification of the carrier ship, escort and readiness to destroy it.
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      And if it's a snag? ... a false object, and the real Poseidon in a completely different place went to the shores of Florida

      Nobody went anywhere - the discovery of Poseidon heading for the shores of the United States is the beginning of a nuclear war.
      And so - "Satan" could carry a lot of false targets. Nothing, the Americans experienced it somehow :))))
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      hmm ... brains are warming up.

      Basically - from authors like Skomorokhov and Majumdar ...
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 14 May 2021 05: 59
        +3
        Oh, it's bad that I'm not an admiral ... they smashed me to smithereens smile, and so wanted to defeat the US Navy ... bummer. what
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 07: 30
          +5
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          and so wanted to defeat the US Navy

          And who would not like to? :))) But the wunderwaffe will not help us with this
        2. Artyom Karagodin
          Artyom Karagodin 14 May 2021 08: 21
          +7
          Bravo, Alexey! In my memory, you are the first who admitted that he was wrong in the dispute, and did not bother "to the last" according to the principle perfectly described by my great-grandmother: "From under seven gates, but seven dogs each - and I barely got it off"))) )))).
      2. Artyom Karagodin
        Artyom Karagodin 14 May 2021 08: 31
        +2
        Countermeasures are the same - identification of the carrier ship, escort and readiness to destroy it.

        Considering that only two of them are planned to be made, this will not be a problem for the US submarine fleet. At all. As for the Poseidons themselves, the Americans seem to have been able to shoot down objects at a depth of more than 1 km, if my memory serves me right. In my opinion, they practically practiced something like that with regular torpedoes. I can lie, I forgot the details.

        And here the speed of 100 knots will act rather as a unmasking sign than ensure its "indestructibility". "Poseidons", again, will not be many, and it will be possible to set them in mass.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 08: 39
          +5
          Quote: Artyom Karagodin
          Considering that only two of them are planned to be made

          This is if there are two, but there is a feeling that the series will continue.
          Quote: Artyom Karagodin
          And as for the Poseidons themselves, the Americans have been able to shoot down objects at a depth of more than 1 km, if my memory serves me right, almost since the 80s.

          everything is very complicated there actually. On the one hand, yes, the Americans can reach this very kilometer. On the other hand, underwater affairs are full of nuances, and it is possible that during a transoceanic crossing, the torpedo will indeed be hidden, especially since it can go at a reduced speed, probably.
          But trying to catch it in shallow water, closer to its shores, is already easier, although it will require certain costs. In fact, the Americans do not have so many large seaports, they need PLO in any case, even with Poseidon, even without him.
          In general, it is really difficult to catch a torpedo in the ocean - but still easier than a ballistic missile in space :)))))
          1. Artyom Karagodin
            Artyom Karagodin 14 May 2021 08: 41
            +3
            Thanks for the adjustments, Andrey.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            there is a feeling that the series will continue

            Chur me, chur stop !!!!!!!!
      3. alstr
        alstr 14 May 2021 10: 30
        +4
        Actually, at the department we were taught that all nuclear charges are launched in the "touchy" mode, i.e. any attempt to shoot down activates a nuclear charge.
        The same can be done with Poseidon.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 12: 12
          +5
          Quote: alstr
          Actually, at the department we were taught that all nuclear charges are launched in the "touchy" mode, i.e. any attempt to shoot down activates a nuclear charge.

          A torpedo a la Poseidon is destroyed either by a direct hit from a non-nuclear weapon or by a nuclear explosion in the immediate vicinity of the torpedo. In either case, the destruction of the warhead is much more likely than its triggering. This is not to mention the fact that on the route Poseidon's warhead is unlikely to be ready for an immediate explosion at any moment.
          1. alstr
            alstr 14 May 2021 12: 48
            +1
            A nuclear explosion in the immediate vicinity is well thought out. Five points.
            And as for the usual charge, you still have to hit. Nor is it guaranteed that the warhead will not activate.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 12: 55
              +5
              Quote: alstr
              A nuclear explosion in the immediate vicinity is well thought out.

              So the Americans had nuclear depth charges in service, God knows how many decades ago.
              Quote: alstr
              Nor is it guaranteed that the warhead will not activate.

              Well, 200 kilotons were activated, even if only a few tens of kilometers from the coast. To the point
              1. alstr
                alstr 14 May 2021 16: 09
                +1
                So depth charges for an object with a speed of 100 knots - it must be managed to hit. Especially a few hundred meters deep.
                By the way, they have depth restrictions and were dropped from aircraft. I have no idea how in such conditions it is possible to hit a moving target with acceptable accuracy.

                And if we are talking about the shelf, then there is another ambush - called currents. those. blowing up even 200 kt - we get the pollution of the entire coast. And again, how to get there?

                In addition, most likely the warhead is also protected in some way. How much is a question. Therefore, it is quite possible that the warhead will survive even a nuclear explosion.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 20: 20
                  +4
                  Quote: alstr
                  So depth charges for an object with a speed of 100 knots - it must be managed to hit. Especially a few hundred meters deep.

                  To begin with, the Americans had the entire set of nuclear submarines - depth charges, homing torpedoes, and ASROC. The latter were equipped with modest nuclear warheads of 10 kt. But depth charges for aircraft reached 1 Mt. For her, a few hundred meters miss ... not critical :)
                  Quote: alstr
                  And if we are talking about the shelf, then there is another ambush - called currents. those. blowing up even 200 kt - we get the pollution of the entire coast.

                  May there be no pollution of the entire coast. With or without currents. How many of these explosions were there, nuclear submarines died with the destruction of the reactor (the same Thresher)
                  1. alstr
                    alstr 15 May 2021 12: 32
                    +1
                    It is far from a fact that even an underwater nuclear explosion a few hundred meters away can destroy (and it is necessary to destroy it, since any damage will cause the charge to be detonated).

                    Here is what happened to the submarine during tests on the Bikini YAO:
                    "Tests at Bikini have shown that submarines are not very susceptible to kiloton nuclear weapons (such as the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki). Their rugged hulls, designed with water pressure at depths of hundreds of meters, can only be damaged at very close The submarine Skate, which was 400 meters from the epicenter, escaped only with ruptures of its light hull and damage to the conning tower. Despite the injuries sustained, the solid hull was not damaged and the Skate was able to return to Pearl Harbor on its own. "

                    Considering that Poseidon was designed to a much greater depth than the submarine of the post-war years, then the chance of detonating the charge is very high.
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 May 2021 14: 32
                      +3
                      Quote: alstr
                      It is far from the fact that even an underwater nuclear explosion a few hundred meters away can destroy

                      Fact
                      Quote: alstr
                      Bikini Tests Show Submarines Are Little Susceptible to Kiloton Nuclear Weapons

                      And here we will talk either about a direct hit of a kiloton charge, or about a close explosion of a megaton-class bomb
                      Quote: alstr
                      Considering that Poseidon was designed to a much greater depth than the submarine of the post-war years, then the chance of detonating the charge is very high.

                      Let us even assume that this is so. And what is the use of this detonation? :)))) Stun the fish? :)))
      4. bk0010
        bk0010 14 May 2021 12: 04
        +2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Not at all fraught. An atomic bomb does not detonate :))))))
        Well, this is how to do it: remember the concept of the Grenade low-altitude nuclear breakthrough.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Exactly the same as the ICBM, or even less.
        The number of ICBMs is limited by agreements, the number of nuclear torpedoes is not (I’ll say right away: I’m not a fan of Poseidon, there’s no need to prove that this is not a good idea).
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 12: 15
          +3
          Quote: bk0010
          Well, this is how to do it: remember the concept of the Grenade low-altitude nuclear breakthrough.

          What do you mean? Specify, please, I will not understand. Maybe I don’t know. hi
          Quote: bk0010
          The number of ICBMs is limited by agreements, the number of nuclear torpedoes is not

          But the number of deployed warheads is limited, isn't it?
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 14 May 2021 12: 28
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What do you mean? Specify, please, I will not understand. Maybe I don’t know.
            The Soviet S-10 "Granat" complex (its rocket, 3M10 is the ancestor of the Caliber), cruise missiles were fired one after another from torpedo tubes, in the event of a missile interception, it exploded (200 kT) and to the one who intercepted it (a fighter or an air defense complex ) was sharply worse, the next rocket flew freely, and so on, until they reach the target.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But the number of deployed warheads is limited, isn't it?
            The signed agreement regulates the accounting of warheads as follows: "The number of warheads is the number of warheads installed on deployed ICBMs and on deployed SLBMs."
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 12: 53
              +3
              Quote: bk0010
              cruise missiles were fired one after another from torpedo tubes, in the event of intercepting a missile, it exploded (200 kT)

              OK, thanks:)))
              For air interception of those years, this could work quite normally. The bottom line is that the "air-to-air" missile system has, in fact, a fragmentation effect - it explodes at some distance from the target of the attack and hits it with a cone of flying combat elements. In this situation, it is really possible to undermine the warhead, which is a fairly well-protected object. Although this is the first time I hear about it.
              But with a direct defeat of Poseidon with a torpedo, or atomic ammunition, it will be difficult to detonate a nuclear warhead. With a high probability, the warhead will be destroyed before detonation. There, after all, the point is that it is necessary to restrain the reaction until the moment the main mass of plutonium is involved in it, otherwise the explosion will be weak, and the plutonium will simply scatter to the sides.
              Finally, the detonation of 200 kilotons under water at a distance of even several tens of kilometers from the port will not do anything terrifying.
              Quote: bk0010
              "The number of warheads is the number of warheads installed on deployed ICBMs and on deployed SLBMs."

              At the same time, clause 2 of Article No. 5 reads
              When, in the opinion of one Party, a new type of strategic offensive weapons appears, that Party has the right to raise the issue of such strategic offensive weapons for consideration by the Bilateral Advisory Commission.
      5. PPD
        PPD 29 July 2021 10: 31
        0
        The American missiles that our Violinists were going to intercept had a "touchy regime" at certain points - any attempt at interception - and a big boom.
        Therefore, the task is to intercept at the greatest possible range ...
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 14 May 2021 15: 10
      -2
      Suppose the Americans find this Poseidon at their borders, then what?
      a couple of Burkov will do, and the "furry northern scribe" will gallop up to him, simply destroy this frightening Rushen vessel under water! At a depth of up to 1000 m.
    3. Intruder
      Intruder 15 May 2021 10: 27
      -1
      And if it's a snag? ... a false object, and the real Poseidon in a completely different place went to the shores of Florida ... hmm ... brains are warming up.
      Especially if it's not there at all !? wink "It is difficult to look for a black cat in a dark room - which is not there" !!! This is how the brain will heat up and spray any PLO forces, on the surface and under it, in any Navy on this planet ... wassat
  3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 05: 41
    +15
    Novel! Stop !! Ask!!!:))))
    Honestly - maybe it's enough to write about naval topics already? Well, they are not given to the author, from the word "absolutely".
    But what's the point of these aircraft carriers, which consume tens of billions of dollars for their upkeep, if a stupid and almost brainless reptile with a couple of hundred kilotons lurks under the very shore? And just waiting for the command to be demolished by a radioactive wave, say, Texas. Or Florida.

    Firstly, in order to flush something there, you need a charge not in hundreds of kilograms, but in hundreds of MEGATons, that is, orders of magnitude more powerful. Secondly, even a 100 megaton charge will make at best the most common tsunami that no state will wash away anywhere. Will destroy a few kilometers from the coastline, and that's it.
    This is the projection of force into the enemy's territory. As an American aircraft carrier, only cheaper. And more practical.
    I am sure that those who think about this topic do not feel very comfortable in the USA. I would feel that way. It's uncomfortable.

    Why would? :))))) For many decades, SSBNs have been operating in our country, capable of staging a nuclear Armageddon. Why should the Americans suddenly be afraid? :)
    This is all in the Cooperative Strategy for the 21st Century Seapower. And this document confirms that the Poseidons still frighten the American military today.

    Is it okay that the Cooperative Strategy for the 21st Century Seapower document was published in October 2007, when the Poseidon bast had not yet rang about?
    So, the document very seriously considers the use of APA - autonomous underwater vehicles for various purposes.
    Mike Mullen's team behind the Concept did a very good job. And, most importantly, work on the document began in 2006, when the Poseidons were still silent. But even then, American maritime analysts foresaw that such devices would appear. It's just that no one expected Russia to say such a thing.

    The Americans are really concerned about the creation of autonomous underwater vehicles, and not only them. But the point is that neither in purpose nor in design, they are completely different from "Poseidon", and solve completely different problems. There is no relationship between the work of foreigners on the APA and "Poseidon" - these are works in completely different fields, and opposing them - well, it's about the same as saying that the Americans sawed their latest modification of the "Abrams" under the impression of Russian "Poseidon" ...
    I, of course, understand that Roman really wants the Americans to be terribly frightened of Poseidon and rush to urgently seek countermeasures, including in terms of the development of the APA. But the fact is that the appearance of Poseidon did not lead to any noticeable reaction from the US military. Frightened except that the authors of some publications, such as The National Interest - in general, colleagues of Roman Skomorokhov, who have a similar level of understanding of the issues of the Navy
    1. agond
      agond 14 May 2021 08: 45
      0
      Many people can burn down a large torpedo with a diesel engine and, even with a snorkel, many people can, but only a few countries will be able to detect (not immediately and not always) such a homemade product, provided that the torpedo itself is a drone large and with a snorkel. A power plant based on stirling and radioisotopes will reduce the size of the device many times, and the detection task will be of a different level, and if your country has advanced in the creation of small-sized reactors of high specific power, at the same time they can be turned on and off many times and your drone can quickly-slowly move at different depths and periodically "rest" at the bottom at a depth of more than a kilometer, then the enemy will need a "detector" based on new physical principles. by the way, the inhabited Lasharik and the deep-water WORLD descended by 6 km
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 08: 56
        +4
        Quote: agond
        To burn down a large torpedo with a diesel engine and, many can use a snorkel

        But nobody does. For complete uselessness.
        Quote: agond
        But few countries will be able to detect (not immediately and not always) track such a homemade product, provided that the drone torpedo itself is large and with a snorkel.

        An apparatus with a diesel engine and a snorkel is detected at a time. The "few countries" are the US and NATO.
        Quote: agond
        and if your country has made progress in creating small-sized reactors of high specific power, while they can be turned on and off many times and your drone can move quickly and slowly at different depths and periodically "rest" at the bottom at a depth of more than a kilometer, then the enemy will need a "detector" on new physical principles

        Firstly, you have a very high opinion of our development, and it is not clear what it is based on. I’ll say offhand that Poseidon is most likely unable to turn on or off or rest (he doesn’t need it). Change running modes - yes, most likely it can.
        Secondly, no "new physical principles" are needed to detect it. This is the task of conventional acoustics, active and passive stations.
        I can only repeat
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In general, it is really difficult to catch a torpedo in the ocean - but still easier than a ballistic missile in space :)))))
    2. Ren
      Ren 14 May 2021 11: 35
      +1
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Secondly, even a 100 megaton charge will make at best the most common tsunami that no state will wash away anywhere.

      According to CNBC (Certain News Babushka Chant, in Russian - OBS), this torpedo is highly likely a 50 Mt thermonuclear ammunition, with an outer shell of 80 tons of cobalt. wassat
    3. Intruder
      Intruder 14 May 2021 15: 21
      0
      Firstly, in order to flush something there, you need a charge not in hundreds of kilograms, but in hundreds of MEGATons, that is, orders of magnitude more powerful. Secondly, even a 100 megaton charge will make at best the most common tsunami that no state will wash away anywhere. Will destroy a few kilometers from the coastline, and that's it.
      The soul of Academician Sakharov rejoices looking at your comment from the other side !!!
      Most of the major cities in the United States are located on the coast. And this is a vulnerable point for attack. If these cities are demolished at once, America will not be able to recover and will be excluded from the political game for a long time. In 1952, Andrei Sakharov proposed a project to Beria, who was in charge of the Soviet nuclear industry. The scientist was then only 30 years old and he worked in a group to create a thermonuclear bomb. What is needed for this? Bring submarines to the coast of the United States, and strike with 100-megaton torpedoes. Torpedoes with charges will calmly fall to the bottom, and they can be activated at any time from a distance with a directed radio signal. Interestingly, they did not require dominance of the sea, giant resources and an entrance to the coastal zone. Only a few submarines were enough, which fired torpedoes from afar, out of sight of American radars, followed by a simultaneous explosion of charges in four places - two strikes each in the Atlantic and Pacific. This will launch a tsunami wave, the height of the wave was much higher than in the American project - up to 300 meters. Such a wave from the Atlantic Ocean would sweep away New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, Miami and a dozen other major centers. From the Pacific Ocean, under the onslaught of the wave, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, San Diego and other megacities would fall. 300 meters is the height of a wave that cannot be imagined. On average, the height of waves during natural tsunamis ranges from 8 to 20 meters. And the most gigantic wave was recorded in Alaska - there was a short-term tsunami caused by the collapse of glaciers, with a wave height of 524 meters. But this is an episode that did not cause destruction, since the wave was in a remote area. Here, the cities did not have a single chance of salvation. The tsunami project has become a springboard in the career of a scientist. In just a year, Sakharov became an academician. At 31! An unheard-of success for a young scientist. Seven years later, Sakharov will become one of the creators of the Tsar Bomba, the most powerful explosive device in the history of mankind. The project began to be implemented. The construction of a nuclear submarine and a giant torpedo was launched. The dimensions and weight of the torpedo are 4 tons and 8 meters in length.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 May 2021 20: 29
        +2
        Quote: Intruder
        The soul of Academician Sakharov rejoices looking at your comment from the other side !!!

        (sigh) Well, Christmas trees, how long will you remember Sakharov? :)))))
        There was not everything that you write. Read Sakharov's memoirs.
        The idea of ​​a tsunami is generally the idea of ​​Academician Lavrentiev. At least check out Wikipedia.
        The idea to cause an artificial tsunami with a powerful explosion (up to 100 megatons T. e.) Off the coast of the United States belongs to Academician Lavrentyev. In 1962, he wrote a memo to Khrushchev, on whose initiative experiments were carried out to test the effects of a powerful coastal underwater explosion at the Central Research Institute-12 of the Ministry of Defense. Their results showed that regardless of the power of the underwater explosion, real damage could be inflicted on US coastal facilities at a distance of 2, maximum 5 km from the water's edge.[

        All of the above is a consequence of real tests - on the shores of Lake Ladoga, the US coast was modeled in miniature, up to a ton of explosives were detonated under water. ("50-megaton explosion over the new earth" Adamsky, Smirnov)
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 14 May 2021 23: 56
          -4
          At least check out Wikipedia.
          Hmm, when did WiKi become the ultimate truth !? The sad thing is how ... exactly the assumption ... but there is also such an applied section - as historiography winked ... it's already worth familiarizing yourself with what it is used for, especially when someone claims the opposite, with a reference only to WiKi! wink
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 May 2021 09: 51
            +3
            Quote: Intruder
            Hmm, when did WiKi become the ultimate truth !?

            It's sad when people can't read. I wrote to you in Russian and white
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            At least check out Wikipedia at least.

            If there is a desire to go a little further, then below you will find a link to an article by Adamskiy, Doctor of Physical and Mathematical Sciences and Lenin Prize laureate, who personally took part in the development of nuclear weapons.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            "50-megaton explosion over the new earth" Adamsky, Smirnov

            Quote: Intruder
            and there is also such an applied section as historiography

            Denis, before you enter into an argument with me - read at least something, please. You have not read Sakharov's memoirs, but "drown" for him, you have not read Adamsky, you were not even enough for Wikipedia, and you will tell me about historiography here wassat
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 15 May 2021 10: 14
              0
              Denis, before you enter into an argument with me - read at least something, please. You have not read Sakharov's memoirs, but "drown" for him, you have not read Adamsky, you were not even enough for Wikipedia, and you will tell me about historiography here
              Andrey, it is not entirely correct, it is your saying with a slang form, about:
              but "drown" for him
              and it was not in my thoughts that there was something to "drown" ... we are not in a kindergarten or in a school, I hope so !? As for historiography, they study in the basic course that it is necessary to study at least several sources with an analysis of general problems, it can be seen that many here simply do not know about it! I gave, only a part ... You have a different point of view, and now you need a third source, and then compare, in detail .., and a reference to Vicki (exclusively yours), it's not even funny ... somehow! drinks I hope that we perfectly understood each other and without personal grievances !?
              PS And what academics in their assessments, Sakharov and Adamskiy cannot be wrong ??? And to simulate the megaton equivalent in laboratory conditions, and even with the calculation of the impact on the ocean floor and calculate the height of man-made tsunamis, in a puddle or pools ... causes a soft smile! For example, from personal observation experience, what do you think: how much objective time is needed for the formation of a dangerous atmospheric phenomenon in a standard atmosphere, such as: a hail formation (more precisely, its core), or a snow massif (also the formation core) at an altitude: from 2 to 6 km !? I just know it and worked with it ... and this is not theoretical data with modeling, but real natural phenomena ...
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 May 2021 14: 57
                +3
                Sorry, it seemed to me that you decided to exacerbate the discussion. I was wrong and I sincerely apologize! hi I am very pleased that you refrained from the tone I set and returned the discussion to a constructive track. repeat
                Quote: Intruder
                Regarding historiography, they study in the basic course that it is necessary to study at least several sources with an analysis of general problems, it is clear that many here simply do not know about it!

                I agree, let's figure it out :))) Sakharov himself did not seriously work out the idea of ​​a torpedo hypertsunami. Here are the lines from his memories
                “In order to do away with the theme of the“ big ”product, I will tell here a certain remaining“ at the conversational level ”story - although it happened somewhat late. ... After testing the “big” product, I was worried that there was no good carrier for him (the bombers didn’t count, they were easily knocked down) —that is, in the military sense we were wasted. I decided that such a carrier could be a large torpedo launched from a submarine. I fantasized that it was possible to develop a direct-flow water-steam atomic jet engine for such a torpedo. The enemy’s ports should be the target of an attack from a distance of several hundred kilometers. The war at sea is lost, if the ports are destroyed - we are assured by the sailors. The hull of such a torpedo can be made very durable; it will not be afraid of mines and barrage networks. Of course, the destruction of the ports - both the surface explosion of a torpedo with a 100-megaton charge that jumped out of the water, and an underwater explosion - is inevitably associated with very large human casualties. One of the first people I discussed with this project was Rear Admiral F. Fomin.
                He was shocked by the "cannibalistic" nature of the project, noted in a conversation with me that the sailors were used to fighting an armed enemy in open battle, and that the idea of ​​such a massacre was disgusting for him. I am ashamed and have never discussed my project with anyone. ”

                In other words, A.D. Sakharov writes nothing about some megatsuns there. The point is that the story repeated itself because there was no decent carrier for the Tsar Bomb - the warhead in 29,5 tons could not be installed on a ballistic missile even in principle, hence the idea of ​​super-powerful torpedoes. In this case, A.D. Sakharov, apparently remembering the admirals' remarks about the short range of the T-15, thinks of equipping it with a nuclear engine. But the most important thing is different. HELL. Sakharov stresses that:
                1. No serious elaboration of the atomic torpedo with the warhead in 100 megatons was carried out, everything remained at the level of conversations;
                2. Even conversations about these weapons took place later on the tests of the “Tsar-bomb”, that is, no proposals to “flush America off” at the beginning of the AD 50-s. Sakharov did not;
                3. It was about the direct destruction of American ports or naval bases by undermining the most powerful nuclear charge in their waters, and not at all about megatsuns or using this torpedo as a tectonic weapon.
                Further, Sakharov himself later was extremely skeptical about this unborn type of weapon. I quote him
                "I am writing now about all this without fear that someone will grasp these ideas - they are too fantastic, clearly require exorbitant costs and use of great scientific and technical potential for their implementation and do not correspond to modern flexible military doctrines, in general, they are of little interest . It is especially important that with the current level of technology such a torpedo is easy to detect and destroy on the way (for example, an atomic mine) "

                Further. Even 100 megaton ammunition will not create hypertsunami
                If we take a sufficiently detailed book on nuclear underwater explosions "Water Waves Generated by Underwater Explosions", it turns out that under ideal conditions for the formation of mega or hypertsunami, its height can reach:
                In 9,25 km from the epicenter - 202-457 m.
                In 18,5 km from the epicenter - 101 ... 228 m.
                d = 92,5 km, - 20 ... 46 m.
                d = 185 km, - 10,1 ... 22 m.
                Further. We really worked out the issue of using high-power nuclear warheads to create a tsunami. The result is negative
                Quote: Intruder
                And that the academicians, in their assessments, cannot be wrong, and Sakharov himself and Adamsky ??? And to simulate the megaton equivalent in laboratory conditions, and even with the calculation of the impact on the ocean floor and calculate the height of man-made tsunamis, in a puddle or pools ... causes a soft smile!

                Sorry, but detonating a ton of explosives is nothing like laboratory conditions or swimming pools :)))
                But let's look at this issue from the other side. Are you sure that
                Quote: Intruder
                The wave height was much higher than in the American project - up to 300 meters. Such a wave from the Atlantic Ocean would sweep away New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, Miami and a dozen other major centers.

                Forgive me, what grounds do you have for this? :)))) There were no practical tests with reaching the 300 meter wave. Natural experiments make you smile. With this approach, you should not trust theoretical calculations either, so where did you get confidence in the possibility of a tsunami that could wash cities off the coast of the United States? :)
                You already see my arguments. There are Sakharov's memoirs, there are articles by physicists, there are practical tests. None of this confirms your point of view. And what confirms?
                I will be happy to see the proofs of your theory
                1. Intruder
                  Intruder 15 May 2021 15: 18
                  +1
                  Sorry, it seemed to me that you decided to exacerbate the discussion. I was wrong and I sincerely apologize! hi I am very pleased that you refrained from the tone I set and returned the discussion to a constructive track
                  Well, what, maybe an apology ... everything is fine! yes
                  Even 100 megaton ammunition will not create hypertsunami
                  If we take a sufficiently detailed book on nuclear underwater explosions "Water Waves Generated by Underwater Explosions", it turns out that under ideal conditions for the formation of mega or hypertsunami, its height can reach:
                  In 9,25 km from the epicenter - 202-457 m.
                  In 18,5 km from the epicenter - 101 ... 228 m.

                  d = 92,5 km, - 20 ... 46 m.
                  d = 185 km, - 10,1 ... 22 m.
                  That is, all the same .., even in underwater and full-scale studies, with a real nuclear mine, (by the way, there is exactly a nuclear charge ??? Without a hydrogen medium ...), the wave height values ​​were spinning - up to 300 m., At the maximum amplitudes, most likely ... and along the radius - up to 10 km !? winked
                  Although it is true, to provide an approach even to an uninhabited vehicle - 6-7 miles to the coast, even in shallow water and manage to blow up 100 megatons, is this already from the realm of fantasy for the US coastal forces and their PLO !?
                  Sorry, but detonating a ton of explosives is nothing like laboratory conditions or swimming pools :)))
                  I do not argue that it is not similar - explosive detonation - up to 1 t. In TNT, but it is also not similar, also for a nuclear SCU, under water, even for - 1 kt., There are slightly different factors, with a difference in parameters: numerical and qualitative , by exposure in a liquid medium !?
                  Practical tests with reaching the 300 meter wave were not carried out. Natural experiments make you smile. With this approach, you should not trust theoretical calculations either, so where did you get confidence in the possibility of a tsunami that could wash cities off the coast of the United States? :)

                  1. You yourself brought the data of underwater tests from that book: "Water Waves Generated by Underwater Explosions" !? There are just these same waves in height, in the range: from 202 to 457 m, with a radius of 9,25 km. from the epicenter of the explosion!
                  2. To create a tsunami, is it really necessary to create a large excess pressure in the water itself ??? A tricky question ... now it's simple, I didn't write about all the main nuances of the mechanism of this phenomenon ..., otherwise the discussion will end quickly, maybe others are interested in this topic, and they revered us too !? yes
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 May 2021 20: 45
                    +2
                    Quote: Intruder
                    You yourself cited the underwater test data from that book: "Water Waves Generated by Underwater Explosions" !? There are just these same waves in height, in the range: from 202 to 457 m, with a radius of 9,25 km. from the epicenter of the explosion!

                    So it's about nothing :)))) Such a wave will destroy one city. And that's all.
                    If a 100 megaton charge explodes above the surface of the water (a floating torpedo), then the zone of fires and fatal burns from a light flash will be 150 km, while the strongest infection can make up a "tongue" up to 800 km long and up to 250 approximately wide.
                    Quote: Intruder
                    To create a tsunami, is it really necessary to create a large excess pressure in the water itself ??? A tricky question ... now it's simple, I didn't write about all the main nuances of the mechanism of this phenomenon ..., otherwise the discussion will end quickly, maybe others are interested in this topic, and they revered us too !?

                    Anything can be. I am not an expert in this topic, but nevertheless I fully trust the judgments of doctors of sciences of the era of the USSR, so I will get acquainted with your point of view with pleasure, but I will remain with my point of view, even without being able to oppose you. Simply because I do not have an appropriate base and I cannot answer in the way that scientists of the USSR who dealt with this issue could have done it.
                    1. Intruder
                      Intruder 16 May 2021 00: 23
                      0
                      A similar wave will destroy one city. And that's all.
                      If a 100 megaton charge explodes above the surface of the water (a floating torpedo), then the zone of fires and fatal burns from a light flash will be 150 km, while the strongest infection can make up a "tongue" up to 800 km long and up to 250 approximately wide.
                      Hmm, we are looking at the "puddle" of the Gulf of Mexico (short reference about it:
                      inland sea of ​​the western Atlantic Ocean. Bounded from the northwest, north and east by the US coast (states of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas) Gustav, Ivan, etc.) almost every year lead to devastating consequences in the coastal regions of the bay. It is of great economic importance for the states washed by it. It is one of the warmest bodies of water in the world. The surface of the bay is shaped like an oval about 1,5 thousand kilometers wide. The bottom of the bay is composed of sedimentary rocks and recent sediments. It communicates with the Atlantic Ocean through the Florida Strait between the United States and Cuba, and with the Caribbean Sea through the Yucatan Strait between Cuba and Mexico. The Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean are sometimes referred to as the American Mediterranean. Significant reserves of oil and natural gas are concentrated on the shelf of the Gulf of Mexico; the extraction of these minerals is carried out mainly with the help of oil platforms / oil rigs. Intensive fishing is conducted - industrial (tuna), as well as amateur - (shark). Shrimp are grown in shallow bays. Essential for shipping; many ports of the USA, Mexico and Cuba are located on the shores.
                      ) In other words, if you create a "language" with a length of up to 800 km. and a width of 250 km (taken precisely from your comment, let's say it happened that - after 100 Mgt.!) - This is almost half of the bay itself in length ... winked , strong radioactive contamination in that particular area, we get catastrophically worse than tidal forces and tsunamis - as short-term phenomena, they will all pass, and there may remain a global violation of the ecology of the entire region for several countries and generations (what the children of Americans did to the author of a similar project and their grandchildren, it is necessary to hate a couple of generations fiercely and so specifically, it smells of a psychiatric hospital and soft walls with strong guys in dressing gowns !? yes ) ...:
                      1. Local heating of water layers of the corresponding volume, hydrography will change, possibly catastrophically for years - hello storms and goodbye weather conditions, in a predictable part ("Faust" by Gette, fairy tales for children and liberals of Europe, in comparison ..), wept shipping, it will become simply impossible to live on the coast, the number of American states is higher, it is not difficult to calculate the total population that fell under the distribution after the changes, climate change and goodbye to the economy of the affected states!
                      2. Contaminated oil and gas, and there is a mass of radionuclides in the ocean floor in a not very good concentration, will obviously be in excess, no one will also use and deactivate after extraction for tens of years (we look at the half-life of what went into the bottom and spread across the volume of the entire bay), or even more ...;
                      3. Risks to shipping, both local and foreign ships, ports are closed, the population has left for other states, fenita la .., with that part of the land ... belay
                      4. A humanitarian catastrophe for a part of Latin America, all other countries in the UN and the Russian Federation, including, will help, but will refuse explicitly - then no one will understand and appreciate it at all on this ball, if even before that they do not know that Poseidon - I arranged it all !!! fool
                      Now, in short, what could be more terrible - there are 300 meters of all kinds, Tsunami waves !!! hi
                      1. Intruder
                        Intruder 16 May 2021 00: 56
                        0
                        And the comparison with Japan, in 45, as an act of political intimidation in those years, together with Fokushima and the Chernobyl nuclear power plant - after, as examples of mediocrity in the use of atomic / nuclear technology and organizational mistakes at the same time, this is ugh ... and rub it over the surface a certain layer of "severe idiocy", compared with the use of even - 100-200 kt., and even more so 100 Mgt., in the Pacific Ocean ... is foreseen for many years on this particular planet, now other people are watching closely and not one of the "such idiots" is immune from a heart attack in his bunker or office! And they can “fantasize” with due success for the public - all sorts of journalists and venerable experts from academics, but they do not give orders and do not sit at the military tribunal in The Hague, which is good for the rest of the less progressive Mankind ... lol
  4. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 14 May 2021 08: 05
    0
    Interesting. Deserted Varshavyanka, what size will it be?
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 14 May 2021 08: 22
    +7
    We were told that Poseidon is just a torpedo.
    Yes, maybe not simple, very large, very fast, very deep-sea ...
    But still a torpedo, it just starts and just goes to the target near which it just explodes.
    Does not lie on the bottom in ambush, does not patrol for weeks / months / years, surfacing or not surfacing to get in touch, does not collect information and does not transmit to the base.
    It just floats and just explodes.
    Therefore, the comparison with American / Chinese / French drones is generally not clear from where.
    In general, "you need to drink less" (c)
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 14 May 2021 12: 00
      +1
      Why do you think so? In all the officialdom - an autonomous underwater vehicle. Journalists have a drone. Timokhin wrote about the torpedo, who did not see him in the eyes, but knows all the characteristics.
      In general, the level of discussion on Poseidon is off the charts. Some talk nonsense about a bipedal torpedo, while others, on the contrary, Poseidon does not go out into space and participates in the World Chess Championship. And all this in the absence of reliable information.
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 14 May 2021 15: 24
        0
        In all the officialdom - an autonomous underwater vehicle.
        autonomous uninhabited vehicle, I think it's better ... wink
  7. Operator
    Operator 14 May 2021 09: 20
    -6
    NPA "Poseidon" is a strategic weapon, and not all sorts of pot-bellied little things like "Orcs" and related ones. Therefore, comparing "Poseidon" with them is amateurism.

    In such comparisons (as well as the transfer of arrows to the possibility of non-strategic use of Poseidons), the main thing is emotional experiences for our opponents like: oh, they will not be after the use of Poseidons, what are we, Russophobes, going to do among these non-handshake Russians?
  8. S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich 14 May 2021 09: 25
    +1
    It is useful to consider Poseidon as a groundwork for creating drones with PLO and PMO missions.
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 14 May 2021 15: 23
      0
      It is useful to consider Poseidon as a groundwork for creating drones with PLO and PMO missions.
      Duc, there are already so many of these same projects that they will no longer push through the World Ocean! good
  9. The comment was deleted.
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 14 May 2021 12: 04
      0
      And he himself earned a little and amused us. I didn’t seem to do anything bad to anyone.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 14 May 2021 12: 08
        +1
        And he himself earned a little

        Not without it...
        1. agond
          agond 14 May 2021 14: 24
          0
          Underwater drones with a snorkel can move at depths of up to 1-2 meters, and the noise from a small internal combustion engine and a propeller will be strongly absorbed and re-reflected by the surface of the water, so such a homemade product is much more difficult to find than a conventional diesel submarine under a snorkel, and then you can periodically run on batteries. ...
          And further, if you continue to conjecture "poseidon", then you need to take into account
          1 reactor with free circulation of the coolant is quiet, there are no moving parts
          2, in principle, the reactor power can be regulated within wide limits
          3 heat from the reactor can be converted into the rotation of the propeller using a stirling motor and on a straight line without any gearboxes and practically noiselessly from 90 to 600 rpm
          4 as you know, the higher the pressure of the working fluid in the stirring, the higher its power density, in land versions the pressure can be up to 240 atm and difficulties arise with sealing moving parts (piston rod with a stocking seal), but if the stirring is lowered to a depth of 4- + 5 km then it is possible to respectively double the working pressure without problems with the seals, that is, at great depths it could develop more power
          5 what will be the noise of the entire apparatus as a whole, the question is open, but however, if a certain deep-sea small-sized noise source has a high temperature of its outer surface, for example 150-200 * C, then it will heat the surrounding water without boiling, the question of how heating the water will affect the acoustics of the object ?.
          6 and a wish to the developers, it is better to "deepen" the submersion depth of the device to the average depths of the Atlantic 5-6 km with the ability to lie on the bottom, ideally buried in silt,
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 14 May 2021 14: 41
            +1
            Why are you doing this?
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 14 May 2021 14: 48
        +2
        Curious why my comments have been rubbed off?
        Or doubting Skomorokhov is now equivalent to inciting ethnic hatred? (but, fortunately, not to mate :))))
        1. Mooh
          Mooh 14 May 2021 16: 04
          +2
          You can try to write an ode to Skomorokhov in the comments :)) If they rub it, then discord or mate. If they leave, it means they were rubbed for criticizing the party and government :)
        2. frog
          frog 14 May 2021 16: 11
          +1
          Is not it so?? We allowed ourselves to doubt the Great)))
  10. m.voron
    m.voron 14 May 2021 14: 23
    -1
    "In civilized countries, no one has thought of such a nightmare" - here I really agree with the author, no sane person will think of this, you have to be either schizophrenic or mentally ill, which in general is the same thing.
  11. Maks1995
    Maks1995 14 May 2021 14: 52
    0
    Everything seems to be wrong.
    It looks like some Agent Trump asked BB's friend to intimidate Congress. Otherwise, the economy is stagnant, the WFP is in a panic, Congress does not give money for new weapons, everything becomes outdated and begins to wear out, oil becomes more expensive, and the dollar is getting cheaper, you have to save ....

    Previously, everything was OK - we ate hamburgers together, rode in cars, we bought Boeings, and Boeings themselves were our Titan. Steel was transported, aluminum, scientists, wheels for railway, fish, caviar, uranium and other things that are rich. Etc.

    Well, VVP went to meet a friend, made news about under-waffles, hypersound and nuclear engines ... Congress got through, money was allocated ... The media connected on both sides, now either the State Department or the Russians are to blame for everything ...

    True inconsistencies came out, but who cares about them. Still patriots.
    That is armature, terminators, Chechen buggies, uraniums, etc. all are not in the troops, and are planned somewhere there, in the vague future.
    Then the nuclear engines were not ready, and I had to plant some retired missile engineer because of this, they said.
    That hyper-missiles turned out to be modifiers for the plane of the old Iskander, and the hyper-gliding warheads fit into the missile by an order of magnitude less than the old ones falling at the same cosmo-1 speed.
    Then Peresvet just drives in / out beautifully, and is so clean, as if it’s a 3D model for some unknown reason ...

    That super-SU, 1-2 pcs, which is sometimes needed, sometimes unnecessary for officials, but the engines will soon be, and then that and .... promise already a new modernization of SU57, electronic!

    That Poseidon, which is either there or not, turned out to be less effective in terms of the calculated efficiency than conventional missiles ...
    And what for him to swim, lie on the bottom and wait? If they find out, there will be no shame. Will float - If "paradise" happens, he will simply be late. Or does not swim, they will gouge everyone on the sea that is ...
    With the same success, you can "lose" in advance several containers with "stuffing" in the right places, without any engine cores and other difficulties ... And for missiles this has been discussed and developed for a long time ...

    And in a race ... they wrote that drones and a drone have been floating in yusa for a long time, and have already made a circumnavigation, without any engine cores ... and are similar in size ...
    1. Aleksandr97
      Aleksandr97 14 May 2021 15: 34
      0
      "Leaked" super secret development "Status 6" - November 9, 2015. Trump was not standing by. Rather, it is a visible confirmation of the previously expressed asymmetric measures to withdraw from treaties and deploy missile defense systems in Romania and Poland.
      https://topwar.ru/86182-proekt-status-6-nesekretnaya-sekretnost.html
      1. Maks1995
        Maks1995 14 May 2021 16: 31
        0
        That's right! Obama and Medvedev also happily grunted together at that time "hamburgers"
  12. Aleksandr97
    Aleksandr97 14 May 2021 15: 21
    0
    Actually, the tsunami is being used in combat by the Americans' idea:
    The Seal project was only officially declassified in 1999.
    The idea of ​​the project is simple - you need to carry out a powerful explosion at certain points of the ocean in order to cause a tsunami that will cover enemy territory.
    In 1944-1945, engineers carried out experiments in the area of ​​New Zealand with the permission of the authorities of the latter. And, indeed, they managed to create 10-meter tsunami waves.
    Engineers began to design weapons that would demolish Japan's coastal defenses.
    But in the course of further calculations, it turned out that in order to create a wave that would cause tremendous damage to the coastal zone, at least 2 million explosive charges were needed. They need to be laid out on the ocean floor in a line at a distance of about 8 km and blown up at the same time. Then a giant wave will arise, which will wash away everything on the coast.
    This requires complete control of the sea and a huge amount of resources. Easier - to organize the landing.
    In 1952, Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov proposed a project to Beria, who was responsible for the Soviet nuclear industry. The scientist was then only 30 years old and he worked in a group to create a thermonuclear bomb.
    The proposed application of a thermonuclear bomb is not an unknown innovation for anyone. The ideas of the Americans did not develop in this direction only due to the fact that it is precisely this weapon that is more effective against the sea powers !!! Poseidon is especially good in that the hypothetical mirror response against us will be orders of magnitude weaker, due to the lack of large cities on the coast. The Baltic is not taken into account due to the shallowness of the sea.
    For example, we have the largest Vladivostok - 600 thousand people;
    They have: New York - 8 300 thousand people;
    Philadelphia - 1 500 thousand population;
    Los Angeles - 3 thousand people;
    San Diego - 3 population.

    Returning to autonomous underwater vehicles - of course, this direction is very promising, for example, the tasks of patrolling the Northern Sea Route.
  13. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 14 May 2021 16: 02
    +5
    The Russian Poseidon project turned out to be an excellent trigger for the overall development of PLO
    USA.
    Those devices that are preparing for the meeting of Poseidons (hypothetical weapons of retaliation
    in a global nuclear war), will be able to bring practical benefits in conventional
    war at sea. Unmanned underwater vehicles.
  14. flicker
    flicker 15 May 2021 18: 02
    0
    on the theme of "Poseidon"
    It is rather a weapon of retaliation against those who intend to launch a nuclear apocalypse for everyone, while they themselves hope to sit out in underwater bunkers, somewhere at the bottom of the ocean, near some islands.
    ---
    Several years ago, it was reported that something similar (an underwater bunker) was being built somewhere on the islands near the south of Argentina.
  15. 231165
    231165 15 May 2021 18: 06
    0
    Russia is less vulnerable in terms of devices like Poseidon. Strictly speaking, the danger can threaten Kaliningrad and Vladivostok. Such a device is unlikely to be able to get to Peter (if we also take into account the dam), to the Black Sea - too.
    1. agond
      agond 17 May 2021 08: 55
      0
      Project Posedon, the one that was announced, is not the best option, it will be much more interesting if a ballistic missile of the Sineva type is installed on Poseidon with a twice reduced range, but with a greatly increased combat load, which would end up with a kind of unmanned micro nuclear submarine
  16. bzbo
    bzbo 24 June 2021 23: 28
    0
    It's time to end the "Island Empire". Until they finished building the Global Island Empire. And how to end it does not matter ...