Military Review

Fighter of Discord: Is the Euro-Six Alive?

93

The balance of power



Five years ago, the phrase "New generation fighter" associated with anything, but not with the European aircraft industry. Europe de facto “slept through” the fifth generation, and the sixth (Euro-“six”) seemed to be something so distant that few people talked about it seriously. The first hints of possible changes appeared in 2016, when Airbus Defense and Space (Airbus' military equipment division) showed the concept of a new-generation winged aircraft.

Then the situation developed like a snowball. In 2019, France and Germany agreed to start work under the next generation fighter program. In the same year, at the Le Bourget air show, the Europeans showed a mockup of the NGF (Next Generation Fighter) fighter, which is being created under the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) or Système de combat aérien du future (SCAF) program in the French version (not to be confused with the same name more early European program, also designated FCAS). Then the Spaniards joined the program, so there were three de facto participants: France, which is the de facto leader, as well as Germany and Spain. The main contractors are Dassault Aviation, Airbus and the Spanish Indra.


In order not to get confused even more, it is worth saying that under the influence of Brexit, the British introduced their own fifth-generation fighter concept in 2018, dubbed the Tempest. A pelican-like mock-up was shown in 2018 during an exhibition in Farnborough. In addition to the British, Italians participate in the program, as well as, optionally, the Swedish side, for which, let's face it, independent development of the Saab JAS 39 Gripen replacement is almost impossible (just remember the exorbitant sums that cost the fifth generation programs). The main companies involved in the conditionally British program are BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls Royce.


Simply put, there should be two European fighters:

- Franco-German-Spanish NGF (FCAS);
- British-Italian-Swedish Tempest.

Both cars, according to the plan, can appear in about 2035-2040s. They will replace the fourth generation fighters currently used by Europeans: primarily the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Optional - the aforementioned Gripen, including the newest JAS 39E / F.

Many experts were perplexed: why does Europe need two planes at once, claiming the title of "sixth generation fighter"? The more surprising news that in fact there may be ... three such machines.

We shared


It is interesting that, despite all the financial problems of the British, the Tempest program goes on as usual: no one writes about any fundamental questions (or the British simply do not talk about them). But in the case of the Future Combat Air System, everything turned out to be very, very difficult.

Already at the initial stage, the contradictions between the leading participants in the program - the Germans and the French - were revealed. The problems became known not so long ago. According to insiders, in early February, Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron were unable to resolve a number of problems, leaving the question open - when can the next tranche of payments in the amount of at least five billion euros be released? (The total cost of the program is estimated at 100 billion euros). The controversy centers around the secret technologies, cost-sharing and jobs associated with the Future Combat Air System.


As reported, France and Germany are at an impasse on two of the seven points of cooperation. One of the problems is intellectual property rights. In short, France did not want the Germans to access them, fearing the "borrowing" of technologies and their subsequent use in purely German projects. The Germans are also not very friendly and do not burn with openness.

You need to understand that cooperation was not initially equal. France has incomparably greater experience in the design and manufacture of fighters: behind it is the Mirage line and the Dassault Rafale - one of the most powerful fighters of our day. The Germans and Spaniards also have experience, but only "pan-European": in the framework of work on the Eurofighter Typhoon.

A senior French source, commenting on the situation, told Reuters:

"To be honest, it would be much easier for us to work with the UK because we share the same military culture."

The parties perfectly understand the seriousness of the contradictions that have arisen and are ready to resolve them. Only, apparently, each of them sees the solution in its own way. Recently, for example, the head of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, announced a certain "B" plan, which, one must assume, allows for the creation of two different demonstrators within the program. At the same time, speaking on March 17 in the French Senate, the head of Airbus Defense and Space, Dirk Hock, denied the statement made by Trappier.

An Airbus spokesman said:

There is no “Plan B”. Plan B is FCAS, any other solution would be much less favorable for everyone. "


Against the background of obvious problems, there are also positive aspects. In April, the French Senate announced that Airbus and Dassault Aviation had removed "a major obstacle" to a demonstrator. The agreement, which the interstate commission called “an important turning point"May be approved by the German Bundestag by the summer. Among the main agreements is the recent decision to equip the demonstrator with the M88 engine, created for the Rafale. Against the background of the above contradictions, this is already an achievement.

If we abstract from the statements of officials and look at the situation from the outside, it becomes obvious that the requirements for the aircraft are initially different. For the Germans, NGF is a "purely" land vehicle, while the French see it as a carrier-based aircraft. We will remind, last year the President of France announced the start of the practical implementation of the program for the development of a new aircraft carrier Porte Avion Nouvelle Generation (PANG), which should be based, among other things, sixth generation fighters.

If we look even more broadly, we will see that there is a repetition stories, which previously happened with Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, which were originally created as one project. And which, after numerous disputes, turned into two completely different fighters, united only by a common concept.


What's the bottom line? A lot, oddly enough, will depend on the British and how Foggy Albion will be open to cooperation with the EU. And also (and this is the most important) on how the relations between Germany and France will develop within the European Union itself.

Of course, controversy at such an early stage of development is a bad sign for the program. It is saved, paradoxically, by the gigantic cost and the understanding that one country will hardly be able to pull out the development of a sixth-generation fighter, unless, of course, this country is the United States or China. We add that, unlike the latter, none of the FCAS participants has experience in developing full-fledged stealth, and the requirement of stealth is one of the key parameters for the sixth generation. If not key.

Meanwhile…


In the meantime, the United States does not suffer from such problems, despite all the internal political ups and downs. Last year, the US Air Force tested a sixth-generation fighter demonstrator under the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program. Will Roper, head of the US Air Force's procurement department, said at the time that “full-scale demo", which the "broke many records».


So far, there is no open data about this project. However, in 2020, experts, having collected indirect evidence of the program, came to the conclusion that the development is being carried out by the Lockheed Martin corporation, which created the F-22 and F-35. Given her vast experience in the development of fifth generation fighters, the prospects for not only FCAS, but also Tempest look ambiguous. The best illustration of this is the successful promotion in Europe of the F-35, which, despite all the technical difficulties, is just beginning its confident footsteps on the market. weapons.
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  1. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 April 11 2021 04: 34
    +4
    First, the Yankees will put their F35 to everyone, and then they will steam 6 generations, Europe is on a short leash.
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 April 11 2021 07: 21
      +5
      Quote: Pessimist22
      First, the Yankees will put their F35 on everyone, and then they will steam 6 generations ...

      It's hard to believe in the German and British 6-ku.
      But France ... If the French fail this serious exam, then we can safely put a fat cross on the entire European aviation industry ... And then their armies will fall into eternal dependence on the United States.
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 09: 40
        +9
        Quote: Doccor18
        the British 6 is hard to believe.
        But France.

        Airbus, Dassault Aviation and BAE Systems, Rolls Royce, as they were the largest manufacturers of aircraft, remain so. Only Boeing and Lockheed Martin can fully compete with them. Moreover, American companies are beginning to lose, BAE is eating a third of the US defense order.
        And do not forget that the F-35 is not a completely American aircraft, without Rolls-Royce plc and BAE this project is simply impossible.
        In the British 6, you can be sure that BAE and RR will do it, they have vast experience in creating the Eurofighter and the F-35, some of the technologies will work on the T-FX. The French can do the same, alone or in a group of countries. The only question is the order by the government. Conglomerations are needed for guaranteed contracts.
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas April 12 2021 08: 14
          +1
          If the French do not come to an agreement with the Germans (some capricious guys, there are no planes of their own, but how they dodge), the French will come to an agreement with the British. These guys, as the article says, are not very enemies to each other, the British will be happy if the French donate their money and work to them.
          1. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik April 12 2021 08: 21
            -2
            Quote: English tarantass
            not much enemies to each other

            Just the same enemies. They will not agree. In general, they do not care about the Germans, this is a bag of money. They do not have aviation technologies; they have retained their capabilities only in armored vehicles. That France, that Britain alone will be able to make these planes.
  2. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U April 11 2021 05: 03
    +10
    Pigeons don't seem to have much respect for Euro 6 laughing

    1. Intruder
      Intruder April 11 2021 06: 39
      -2
      Steel birds, they just look at him as at a noisy thrush, or at a barely fledged chick ... wink
  3. ximkim
    ximkim April 11 2021 06: 24
    -7
    Until 2050, a 6th generation fighter will definitely not appear in Europe.
    Everything is very complicated, and they cannot agree with each other (albeit in the EU)
  4. URAL72
    URAL72 April 11 2021 07: 15
    +4
    The main problem is the engine and radar. France and Great Britain have their own developers who do not intend to give in to each other. Taking into account the German cooperation with the British on the Typhoon and the engine in particular, it will not be easy for them to come to an agreement with the French, for money, technology, and the existing developments of both sides. It is difficult to say who in Europe has advanced further in ROFAR, but the Italians have some groundwork in AFAR there. How to combine it, how to divide the pie? Armchairs and chassis, also from France and England. Italy in aviation technology looks even more solid than Germany, although it has somewhat abandoned engine building, here the Germans are stronger. But Italy is always in a permanent economic crisis, there is not enough money. It will be difficult for them to come to an agreement, so that France can create its own fighter only using the already obsolete technologies and components of Raphael, Britain - Typhoon. It is hoped that these developments will be greatly delayed due to internal contradictions. And the output will be 5+. 6th generation, this is ROFAR and a quantum computer. Will they pull?
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 April 11 2021 08: 17
      +5
      According to AFAR - Leonardo and Thales. Actually, the latter is doing AFAR on Rafali and Eurofighter now. Leonardo has unique compact solutions that are installed, for example, on the M346FA - that is, the AFAR in the Yak-130 size.
      1. URAL72
        URAL72 April 11 2021 08: 36
        +2
        "Captor" (CAPTOR, Russian - the kidnapper),
        is a further development of the Blue Vixen radar produced by the EuroRADAR consortium. When developing the equipment, the basis was taken
        Italian radar project ECR-90.
        The Italians can do a lot, but they are not in a hurry for a new fighter - they buy the F-35, as well as the British. But France and Germany, yes, they want their own.
      2. Liam
        Liam April 11 2021 10: 00
        +2
        Quote: donavi49
        According to AFAR - Leonardo and Thales. Actually, the latter is doing AFAR on Rafali and Eurofighter now

        The first one too
  5. Thrifty
    Thrifty April 11 2021 07: 22
    0
    Ilya, this is how the British posed their Tempest as a 6th generation fighter, like, but in your article it is written that the 5th! And, I wonder what criterion is used to consider an aircraft belonging to generation 6? There is a lot of controversy, there is no single criterion. Everyone gives free rein to their taste. What the Europeans create or do to create is fundamentally different from the concept of the United States, different criteria, and different approaches to creating aircraft.
    1. Angry Alt-Right
      Angry Alt-Right April 11 2021 08: 39
      0
      Quote: Thrifty
      Ilya, this is how the British posed their Tempest as a 6th generation fighter, like, but in your article it is written that the 5th! And, I wonder what criterion is used to consider an aircraft belonging to generation 6? There is a lot of controversy, there is no single criterion. Everyone gives free rein to their taste. What the Europeans create or do to create is fundamentally different from the concept of the United States, different criteria, and different approaches to creating aircraft.

      The most frequently voiced criterion, in articles on VO on this topic, is the support of unmanned wingmen and other artificial intelligence, which makes the pilot more of an operator than a pilot. And this, of course, while meeting the requirements for the 5th generation.
      1. Thrifty
        Thrifty April 11 2021 08: 58
        +2
        Angri-Yanks put hypersound as one of the main conditions of generation 6, ours consider unmanned, with the possibility of still controlling a person or other aircraft, coupled with super-maneuverability, hypersound, and the smallest possible EPR area.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 09: 48
          +3
          Rolls-Royce Plc (RR) and technology partners BAE Systems and Reaction Engines have been developing a hybrid hypersonic engine for several years.
        2. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek April 11 2021 09: 59
          +3
          Hardly .... GPs are specialized devices. To the already complex and expensive technologies of the 5-6th generation, the complexity with the GP is added ... and due to aerodynamics, we get a specialized fighter.
          1. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 10: 43
            +1
            Yes, it is not at all clear why the GP for the fighter. GP is needed for specialized interceptors and strikers. Like the SR-72 hypersonic strike UAV.
        3. Angry Alt-Right
          Angry Alt-Right April 11 2021 19: 02
          +1
          Quote: Thrifty
          Angri-Yanks put hypersound as one of the main conditions of generation 6, ours consider unmanned, with the possibility of still controlling a person or other aircraft, coupled with super-maneuverability, hypersound, and the smallest possible EPR area.

          This is inconsistent with the "stealth" component of the word at all! Even if the coatings are constantly falling on supersonic, which, by the way, is the main contradiction even in the context of the requirements for the 5th generation, then about hypersound it is generally insanity. fellow
    2. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo April 13 2021 14: 25
      0
      Quote: Thrifty
      the British posed their Tempest as a 6th generation fighter

      "Byfecesis it from “cripple” or from “feces”? Or from “bye”?
  6. kytx
    kytx April 11 2021 07: 32
    +1
    how much the appearance of the American 6th and the European
    European is somehow not futuristic enough :)
    although these are of course just pictures
  7. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek April 11 2021 09: 17
    +1
    The costs of modern fighters are high ... and here are two parallel projects within Europe, despite the fact that the market began to fill the F-35, which will fly for 50 years ... And Asians - Japanese, Koreans, Turks saw their counterparts, on their markets .....
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 09: 53
      -5
      Quote: Zaurbek
      and here are two parallel projects within Europe,

      There is nothing you can do about it. France and England are not like enemies, very angry rivals at each other. They will not be able to do serious military projects together.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek April 11 2021 09: 56
        0
        in principle, the situation is repeated with F16, EF and Rafal ... Only Asian manufacturers are just emerging, such as Japan, India, Korea, Turkey
      2. Liam
        Liam April 11 2021 10: 17
        +1
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        There's nothing you can do about it

        Come on, do you seriously think it's a matter of emotion in such things?
        Everything is much more prosaic. There are 2 groups of European countries. Those that bought the F-35 to replace their Tornado attack aircraft (WB and Italy). And those that did not buy the F-35 and they need a 5th generation aircraft with strike functions (Germany, France) The first one needs a new air superiority plane to replace the Typhoon. Hence 2 different projects. It's simple
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 10: 24
          -1
          What emotions? There is a tough rivalry between France and Britain, up to the war between their proxies. The parties directly supported by these countries fought in Libya and Karabakh. Britain for the PNS and Azerbaijan, France for the LNA and Armenia. Britain's withdrawal from the EU has clearly defined the course of competition. The project for the complete unification of Europe has failed.
          1. Liam
            Liam April 11 2021 10: 28
            +3
            We kind of talk about why there are 2 different projects of new generation aircraft. I'm talking about technical aspects, and you are talking about some kind of pseudo-political boltology. With this set you will probably go to another section. There such garbage is appreciated)
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 10: 39
              0
              Economics and politics in the first place, technology in the second. There is not a single technical problem for the unification in the development of France and Britain. Making 2 aircraft with 70-80% unification is not a problem, F-35A / B / C as an example.
              And yes, both European projects are air superiority aircraft, according to similar specifications and concepts. France only still needs a version for an aircraft carrier, which Britain will also do well. We need replacements for Rafal and EF. Strike missions for 4/5 generation aircraft and UAVs.
              1. Liam
                Liam April 11 2021 10: 45
                +1
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                Making 2 aircraft with 70-80% unification is not a problem, F-35A / B / C as an example.

                ))) Poor Americans ... and they don't know. For some reason they created the F-22 for air superiority and the F-35 as a drummer. And for some reason, the second is not considered as a replacement for the first, but they are building a new plane. Probably they do not understand anything in aviation)
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                And yes, both European projects are air superiority aircraft, according to similar specifications and concepts

                What do you .. share the sources of this information?
                1. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 10: 52
                  -2
                  The Americans have their own tasks, the European countries have their own. As a striker, the F-35 is considered only in the United States; other countries buy it as a multifunctional fighter. Which in aerial combat can only be resisted by Rafale and EF, possibly gripen. Only they have supersonic cruise and the ability to maneuver on it.
                  Quote: Liam
                  What do you .. share the sources of this information?

                  So google, open sources are full of information, if you find differences in concepts, feel free to write here.
                  1. Liam
                    Liam April 11 2021 10: 57
                    +2
                    You get lost on the lyrics again.
                    The F-35 ABC is 3 modifications of the attack aircraft. None of them is an air superiority aircraft and no one in the United States or Europe considers them in this role. For this role, a separate type of aircraft is created here and there, and not modification of the drummer.
                    Google to look for confirmation of your fantasies? Your application is to you and confirm it
                    1. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 11: 12
                      -1
                      Quote: Liam
                      F-35 ABC is 3 modifications of the attack aircraft.

                      All of them are multifunctional fighters. How to use them is a matter of tactics and each country decides for itself. In aerial combat, only the F-35 can fight on equal terms against the F-22, in the dogfight EF and Rafal are added, possibly Gripen (I'm talking about serial cars). All the rest only if there is a 2-3-fold quantitative superiority.
                      NGAD (Air Force and Navy), NGF, Tempest are replacing the F-22 (F / A-18E / F), Rafale and EF, respectively.
                      Quote: Liam
                      Google to look for confirmation of your fantasies?

                      So you want to refute them, so refute them. If you want me to confirm them, well, so you want. What is it to me?
                      1. Liam
                        Liam April 11 2021 11: 18
                        0
                        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                        NGAD (Air Force and Navy), NGF, Tempest are replacing the F-22 (F / A-18E / F), Rafale and EF, respectively.

                        And what will Germany replace the Tornado with? All of these aircraft are air superiority conquest except for the NGF.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                    2. Liam
                      Liam April 11 2021 11: 22
                      +1
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      So you want to refute them

                      I don’t refute unfounded statements. For that they are unfounded. You will not find such TK anywhere, that's why you got lost on the lyrics. Otherwise, you would have filled up with links, photos and long posts
                    3. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 11: 40
                      -2
                      Quote: Liam
                      And what will Germany replace the Tornado with?

                      So the EF is, the 90 remaining tornadoes are not a problem to replace. Or do you think VKS? 1 aircraft for 1 mission, if you bomb then Su-34, if air combat then Su-30/35?
                      Germany does not pursue an aggressive foreign policy, one type of multifunctional fighter will be enough for them, with its replacement in the 40-50s.
                      In addition, UAVs will take over the strike missions; they play a major role in the strategies of the leading countries.
                      Quote: Liam
                      You won't find it anywhere, that's why you got lost on the lyrics.

                      Naturally, no one will lay out full-fledged TK, there are requirements and concepts, I'm stupidly too lazy to look for them and translate them for you. I hope you speak English and you will cope with this task yourself. You entered into a dispute with me, not I and bring you evidence.
                    4. Liam
                      Liam April 11 2021 12: 05
                      0
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik

                      So there is EF, 90 remaining tornadoes are not a problem to replace

                      What will you replace about a hundred German Tornadoes and about a hundred percussion French Mirages? Do you have info that Germany has ordered a batch of a hundred new EFs or France has ordered a hundred new Raphales to replace the drummer fleet?
                      You seem to be entangled in your own theories out of touch with reality.

                      All countries that have the money, potential and experience in the design and operation of 5th generation aircraft - the USA, WB, Italy, the same China - all of them design, manufacture or purchase 2 separate classes of aircraft: the F-35 drummer or an analogue in the case of China and the aircraft of conquest of superiority-F-22, NGAD, Tempest. Because they perfectly understand that sooner or later competitors will have their own conditional F-35 and it will have to be shot down with something. All military and aircraft designers in the world clearly separate these two tasks and order and build 2 different types of aircraft, and do not play games with modifications of the same aircraft.
                      And then you appear and explain that they are all fools and do not understand anything about this and that they will perfectly do with one type for all seasons. Moreover, two countries that are completely behind in the topic of 5th generation aircraft, with zero experience in design, construction and use of these-France and Germany. Bypassed as standing, so to speak, at the turn of a dashing maneuver.
                    5. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 12: 28
                      -1
                      Again. I say that different countries have different tasks and different tactics of application. You are approaching all countries with the tactics adopted in the United States. The same plane can be applied in different ways if it multifunctional... F-35, Rafali, EF can bomb sea and ground targets, participate in long-range and close air combat equally well.
                      Replacing mirages and tornadoes in the long run, there is simply no point in changing them right now. By the 30s, there will be an understanding of the prospects for manned and unmanned aircraft. It is logical that when NGF, Tempest and attack UAVs appear in the Air Force, they will replace Rafali and EF in their tactical role, they in turn replace Mirages and Tornadoes.
                    6. Liam
                      Liam April 11 2021 13: 08
                      0
                      )))

                      And what successful strategies for the development and use of aviation, different from the United States, do you know? .. besides your own, naturally. Americans are undisputed leaders in technical development and in the experience of using aviation for many decades already. All the rest repeat or try to repeat with one or another success their solutions are delayed by a couple of decades at best.


                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      The same aircraft can be applied in different ways if it is multifunctional

                      Do not pass off the need as a virtue. The use of F-35 in a different role is a consequence of 2 reasons.
                      a) The lack of the 5th generation superiority aircraft on the market, except for the F-22, which the Americans prudently refused to sell to anyone, which provided the 35th for many years of "clear skies" on a global scale.
                      b) the technological superiority of the F-35 striker over any 4th generation aircraft, which makes it possible to use it as a fighter while competitors have nothing better than the 4th generation.
                      But sooner or later, analogues of the F-22 will appear on the market, and everyone who has money will buy it very willingly.
                      And there is no need to make a mantra out of multifunctionality. The tank and the SPG are also multifunctional and, if necessary, are partially interchangeable. But no one, even for drunkenness, pretends that since there is an SPG, a tank is not needed and vice versa.
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      ... By the 30s, there will be an understanding of the prospects for manned and unmanned aircraft

                      And now, in your opinion, there is no such understanding? The USA and the rest foolishly invested in thousands of F-35s for 50 years ahead without knowing the ford? At the same time, being the leaders in the field of UAVs.

                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      It is logical that when NGF, Tempest and attack UAVs appear in the Air Force, they will replace Rafali and EF in their tactical role, they in turn will replace Mirages and Typhoons.

                      Where did you get this from? What military programs in France and Germany provide for the replacement of Mirages / Tornadoes with Rafali / EF after they are replaced by NGF?
                    7. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 21: 16
                      -1
                      In the beginning, older mirages and tornadoes will be written off, their tasks will be performed by EF and Rafale. Here is information that NGF is being created to replace Eurofighter and Rafale by 2035-2040.
                      https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/group/press/press-kits/dassault-aviation-airbus-join-forces-future-combat-air-system/

                      That's about Tempest replacing the Eurofighter.
                      https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44848294
                    8. Liam
                      Liam April 11 2021 21: 45
                      +1
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      In the beginning, older mirages and tornadoes will be written off, their tasks will be performed by EF and Rafale

                      These are your theories and nothing more
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      Here is information that NGF is being created to replace Eurofighter and Rafale by 2035-2040.

                      Did you learn English at school?
                      Next generation fighter aircraft to complement and eventually replace current generation of Eurofighter and Rafale fighter aircraft by 2035-2040
                      Translate this passage for yourself
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      Here's what Tempest will replace Eurofighter

                      And who said that Tempest will not replace the EF? You seem completely confused
                    9. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 21: 51
                      -1
                      Quote: Liam
                      These are your theories and nothing more

                      Here you have selected a fragment yourself, it says:
                      to complement and eventually replace (to complement and ultimately replace)
                      This means that NGF together with EF and Rafal will serve, then they will be replaced. Fully confirm the words I said.
                    10. Liam
                      Liam April 11 2021 22: 01
                      +1
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      Fully confirm the words I said.

                      Undoubtedly)
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      This means that NGF together with EF and Rafale will serve, then they will be replaced

                      As who will NGF complement - as a striker or fighter?
                    11. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 22: 12
                      -2
                      Quote: Liam
                      As whom will NGF supplement - as a striker or fighter?

                      Name of the program and fighter: Future Fighting Air System, New Generation Fighter - do you need a translation?
                      Better yet, look at the name in French:
                      Système de combat aérien du futur - Future air combat system

                      Any doubts about what the air superiority fighter is doing?
                    12. Liam
                      Liam April 11 2021 22: 16
                      +2
                      Yeah ... with each passage, the argumentation is steeper)
                      And the drummers (F-16, F-35, Tornado, Mirages, Hornets) are not Fighter or Combat in the air? They pick strawberries there or something)
                    13. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 22: 32
                      -4
                      What have these planes got to do with it? F-35 made under the Joint program Strike Fighter - single strike fighter, F-16 Lightweight Fighter The lightweight air superiority fighter, Tornado and Mirage, are made in 2 versions of the IDS and the interceptor (ADV).
                      Everything is spelled out in the names.
    2. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 13: 00
      -1
      If we talk about France, Britain, Germany, then they have 2-3 types of fighters

      Type 1: old, outgoing IB (France-Mirage, Germany-Tornado, Britain-absent)
      Type 2: new multifunctional fighter (France-Rafale, Germany and Britain - EF)
      Type 3: AB based (France-Rafale, Britain-F-35B, Germany-absent)

      The rest of Europe is the same. Type 1 is an old IB or an old clean fighter, Type 2 is a new one. Italy and Spain still have hariers, but they are being replaced by the F-35B.
      For example Poland:
      Type 1: MiG-29, replaced by F-16
      Type 2: F-16, replaced by F-35A

      US tactics when available new separately shock and separately the conquest of air superiority, can be found in Russia, China, Israel, Egypt, Japan, the South Caucasus, the Gulf countries and India. The rest simply do not have the money for such a zoo.
    3. Liam
      Liam April 11 2021 13: 27
      +2
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      Britain-absent)

      125 "Tornado" IDS (GR4 and GR4A). Withdrawn from service in 2019 due to replacement by F-35.
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      new multifunctional fighter (France-Rafale, Germany and Britain - EF)

      The EF-aircraft of conquering air superiority. Just like the F-15, being an aircraft of conquest, it can also perform strike functions, and some modifications are pure strikers. But at the same time, no one even tried to replace the F-16 drummer with it as class, which, in turn, being a drummer, can perfectly stand up for himself and as an air fighter. But only with more technologically backward aircraft. F-15, he will lose an air battle
    4. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 13: 54
      -1
      Quote: Liam
      Removed from service in 2019 due to replacement with F-35

      But there will be no replacement. Purchased 48 F-35V for AB. The remaining 90 F-35s will not be purchased, the money will be directed to their own development.
      So until the Tempest appears, all the tasks of the Air Force will be performed by the EF, then they will be together, until the resource of the EF ends. The fleet will have F-35B, maybe they will buy more, more than 24 fighters are placed on AB. But in the new strategy, the main role is assigned to the UAV.
      Quote: Liam
      Just like the F-15, being an aircraft of conquest, it can also perform strike functions

      What F-15/16 are we talking about? F-15EX / SA and F-16V, both multifunctional fighters, just one heavy and with great capabilities, the other is light and much cheaper.
      Those who have F-15s have light fighters, those who have F-16s in most cases do not have heavy fighters, and they carry out everything from air superiority to strike. The fact that there are better air fighters than the F-16 is a fact, but that most countries in the world have no money for them is the second fact.
    5. Liam
      Liam April 11 2021 14: 07
      +1
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      But there will be no replacement. Purchased 48 F-35V for AB. The remaining 90 F-35s will not be purchased, the money will be directed to their own development.

      You of course got this information from the official programs of the WB Ministry of Defense and not from the yellow newspapers ... I hope.

      Or would you suggest me google it?)
    6. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 14: 12
      -2
      The link to this strategy is at my fingertips:

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/974661/CP411_-Defence_Command_Plan.pdf
    7. Liam
      Liam April 11 2021 14: 17
      +1
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      The link to this strategy is at my fingertips:

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/974661/CP411_-Defence_Command_Plan.pdf

      And on which page out of 76 it is written that
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      But there will be no replacement. Purchased 48 F-35V for AB. The remaining 90 F-35s will not be purchased, the money will be directed to their own development.

      Does it make it difficult to throw off a copy-paste or a screenshot of the paragraph where this is stated?
    8. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 14: 42
      -1
      Specifically about the refusal to buy this from The Times, the article itself is for £, retelling: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-reportedly-to-cut-f-35b-order-by-65-percent/

      The strategy says more than 48 F-35s, so I wrote:
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      The fleet will have F-35B, maybe they will buy more, more than 24 fighters are placed on AB.

      The decision on new purchases and their quantity will be made later. Speech about 138 F-35, now not, only about 48.
    9. Liam
      Liam April 11 2021 14: 55
      0
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      Specifically about the refusal to buy this from The Times

      In short, information from the yellow press.
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik

      The strategy says

      That the WB will modernize the existing fleet of the EF and continue to purchase the F-35 for the army and not just for the navy.


      7.41. The Royal Air Force will continue to grow
      its Combat Air capacity over the next few years
      as we fully establish all seven operational
      Typhoon squadrons and grow the Lightning II
      Force, increasing the fleet size beyond the 48

      aircraft that we have already ordered. Together
      they will provide a formidable capability, which
      will be continually upgraded to meet the threat,
      exploit multi-domain integration and expand
      utility. The Royal Air Force will spiral develop
      Typhoon capability, integrate new weapons such
      as the UK-developed 'SPEAR Cap 3' precision air-
      launched weapon and invest in the Radar 2
      program to give it a powerful electronically
      scanned array radar. We will integrate more UK
      weapons onto Lightning II and invest to ensure
      that its software and capability are updated
      alongside the rest of the global F-35 fleet
      .

      Do not make more unsubstantiated statements of your own "baking" and do not try to go over the ears of the interlocutor in the expectation that no one will check. Or you do not have a special idea about what you are writing about and live in a world of your own theories hi
    10. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 15: 02
      -2
      They have the F-35B in the Royal Air Force, and there is no question of purchasing another 90 fighters. That's when infa about new contracts appears, then we will approve something. While there is:
      FGA 162: 18 F-35B Lightning II; 138 Typhoon FGR4; 6 Typhoon T3 - MB data
      And under the contract there are 30 more F-35Bs, there are no other fighters in the purchase.
  8. Liam
    Liam April 11 2021 14: 36
    +1
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    Those who have F-15s have light fighters, those who have F-16s in most cases do not have heavy fighters, and they carry out everything from air superiority to strike. The fact that there are better air fighters than the F-16 is a fact, but that most countries in the world have no money for them is the second fact

    That is, you confirm my thesis that the use of the F-16 (like the F-35) as a conquest aircraft is either due to poverty (the inability to buy the F-15) or the lack of an alternative on the market in the form of the F-22 and its analogues ( NGAD, Tempest)
    As soon as such an analogue appears, the F-35 in the role of a fighter will be in the same unenviable position as the F-16 against the F-15
  9. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 14: 52
    -3
    Quote: Liam
    will be in the same unenviable position as the F-16 against the F-15

    Looking at sales, the F-15 is in an unenviable position.

    In general, yes, but I will single out 3 main factors:
    1. Absence of external threat.
    2. Multifunctionality of modern fighters (one type can replace all).
    3. The high price of modern fighters.

    I do not argue that the US tactics are wrong, I say that for most European countries it is redundant. For example, Japan is forced to maintain the entire range of fighters: F-4/2 (16) / 15/35 and develop its 6th generation F-3.
  • OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 22: 56
    -3
    Quote: Liam
    Those who bought the F-35 to replace their Tornado attack aircraft (WB and Italy), and those who did not buy the F-35 and need a 5th generation aircraft with strike functions (Germany, France)

    Let's get back to your fantasy. And so the F-35B suddenly does not replace the Tornado in Great Britain, but changes the Harriers. Germany and France do not replace Mirages and Tornadoes (they already have EF and Rafale), but make a fighter that will eventually replace EF and Rafale.
    It turns out NGF and Tempest fighters of the same type for the task of gaining air superiority (this is a primary task, of course they are multifunctional), they even have to replace the same EF. The only difference is NGF will have an AB version. So what technical problems are there for cooperation between France and Britain? There are only economic and political reasons.
  • English tarantas
    English tarantas April 12 2021 08: 21
    0
    For about 400 years, all serious military movements in Europe have been made by the French and the British by mutual agreement.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 11 2021 10: 25
    +4
    - Franco-German-Spanish NGF (FCAS);
    - British-Italian-Swedish Tempest.

    I would rate the success of the first project at 30% probability,
    The second project is 70% likely.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek April 11 2021 10: 57
      +1
      After Britain leaves the EU, who will be the British client? And the market in Britain and Italy is small. And they buy F35 themselves.
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 11: 21
        -1
        For these aircraft, the market is very small. Literally a dozen countries. In fact, everything will do for themselves + 1/2 of the country. There will be very few of them due to the price. The main market will be occupied by UAVs.
        It is more efficient to build hundreds and thousands of cheap UAVs than dozens and hundreds of ultra-expensive fighters.
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 11 2021 12: 27
        0
        You are right about the market.
        I didn't mean sales, but the chances of at least a full-fledged flying prototype.
        1. Liam
          Liam April 11 2021 13: 30
          +1
          Quote: voyaka uh
          You are right about the market

          What competitors does Tempest have on the 5th generation air superiority market?
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh April 11 2021 14: 06
            0
            When Tempest appears, we will also talk about competitors.
            1. Liam
              Liam April 11 2021 14: 08
              +1
              But you can speak imposingly and authoritatively about the fact that it does not have a market right now?
              1. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh April 11 2021 14: 25
                0
                One can assume. Based on today's market.
                1. Liam
                  Liam April 11 2021 14: 28
                  +1
                  And what do you suppose from the current market in which 5th generation air conquest fighters have exactly 0 options, and there are a lot of people who want to buy it. How many times has Israel asked the USA for the F-22?
                  1. voyaka uh
                    voyaka uh April 11 2021 15: 03
                    +1
                    The market for air supremacy fighters is very small. Wide-profile fighters with advanced strike capabilities are in great demand. Fighter-bombers. Hopefully the Tempest designers will take this into account.
                    1. Liam
                      Liam April 11 2021 15: 40
                      +1
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      The market for air supremacy fighters is very small

                      Seriously? How many countries have F-22, F-15, EF, Rafal, Su-27 and its modifications in their arsenal? The answer is many dozens of countries, almost all of which have at least some money.
                      The niche of the new generation of information security will be firmly occupied by the F-35 for many decades and there really is nothing to catch, the train is gone, but the niche of a fighter that can shoot down an F-35 is still free and the more the F-35 spreads around the world, the stronger the demand for it will be. "killer". Now Israel has an exclusive on the BV on the F-35. But sooner or later, Erdogan will be thrown off and Turkey will get its F-35. At least 2-3 Arab monarchies, the Americans will also sell the F-35. And Israel will be ready to pay well for a fighter that can shoot down F-35.
                      1. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh April 11 2021 16: 07
                        +1
                        We'll see what Scunk Works rolls out soon. recourse
                        This will largely determine the path of the rest.
                      2. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 23: 19
                        -2
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        We'll see what Scunk Works rolls out soon.

                        This is the most interesting thing. If this is anything close to the X-44 MANTA, everyone else will need to redo the concepts.

                      3. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik April 14 2021 17: 51
                        0
                        The news appeared:
                        The US Air Force "showed" the sixth generation fighter.

                        In a public procurement report, the US Air Force showed a conceptual image of a sixth-generation fighter under the Next Generation Air Dominance program, United States Marine Corps (ILC) veteran Alex Hollings writes on the Sandboxx blog.

                        The author notes that such a design is typical for aircraft created by Northrop Grumman, which, in particular, developed a prototype of the first fifth-generation fighter YF-23, which lost in the competition to the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor, and has now practically completed the creation of an unobtrusive strategic bomber B-21 Raider.

                        The publication notes that the new images are slightly different from those published in September 2020, in particular the "more triangular" shape of the fighter.

                      4. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh April 14 2021 19: 13
                        +1
                        The lower concept has, if I understood correctly, a new
                        unique feature: its keels fold into special recesses
                        in the wings during cruising and rise during
                        air combat.
                      5. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik April 14 2021 19: 18
                        -1
                        Yeah, I noticed too. Just the main question was what about the keels. In general, the "fat" YF-23, the concept is clear, all within the framework of leaked information about NGAD.
                      6. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh April 14 2021 19: 25
                        +3
                        Let's see if they can launch it into production.
                        High-speed design was invented, but high-speed
                        production with many thousands of parts from hundreds
                        suppliers - not yet wink
                      7. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik April 14 2021 19: 31
                        -1
                        They still have to hold a competition, because such aircraft are the domain of Northrop, and Boeing will not just give up the contract. In the series no earlier than 30-35 years will go.
                        There will also be NGAD from NAVY, I do not think that such an option as in the concept will suit them, the engines are too wide apart, the wings practically cannot be folded, it will take up a lot of storage space.
                      8. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh April 14 2021 19: 38
                        +4
                        Northrop will be busy with B-21. It's about ointment,
                        without competitors, the assembly plant has already been built.
                        Boeing has many structural problems, no normal
                        leadership, the firm is in decline.
                        I think the contract will go to Lockheed.
                        No matter how they run into the F-35, mass production
                        Lockheed managed to organize, and this is proof
                        the competence of the team of engineers.
                      9. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik April 14 2021 19: 46
                        -1
                        Northrop from Boeing can join in this project or compete for the naval NGAD. But I also think Lockheed will take it. In general, they have too few contractors. If they breathed in the back of the head of the Lockheed, the price of the F-35 would fall faster and the problems would be solved sooner.
                      10. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh April 14 2021 20: 39
                        +1
                        Naval NGAD is a whim, in my opinion.
                        Spraying funds. The Navy just needs to get used to the F-35C. If they do not master the F-35 on aircraft carriers, then even more so, they will fail the operation of a larger and heavier fighter.
                        F-35S and F-18 work well together, complementing each other.
                      11. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik April 14 2021 21: 04
                        -1
                        Hornet will become too old by the age of 35-40, it still needs to be changed. It will take 10-15 years for these aircraft to be brought up to production. By then, the F-35C will be firmly established.
      3. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik April 14 2021 18: 44
        -2
        News original: https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-air-force-just-dropped-this-concept-art-of-its-ngad-fighter/?from=article_link
    2. Nestor Vlakhovski
      Nestor Vlakhovski April 11 2021 20: 22
      +1
      How many countries have F-22, F-15, EF, Rafale in their arsenal ...
      How do these full-fledged MFIs that work seamlessly on the ground fit into your needs for a highly specialized air superiority fighter?
      But the niche of a fighter that can shoot down the F-35 is still free, and the more the F-35 spreads around the world, the stronger the demand for its "killer" will be.
      Action gives rise to opposition, no one doubts that someday they will find control on the F-35. But already now it is possible to assert with a high degree of confidence that this "board" will be as multifunctional as "Lighting2" itself.
  • DMi
    DMi April 11 2021 11: 24
    +1
    Nobody really did the fifth generation yet. There is not a single successful project in fact. At the moment. But they are already running to invent the sixth)
    Nobody will succeed in the next twenty years. But there will be a lot of advertising and ideological hype. Well, dividing the skin of a bear that has not even been born yet)
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik April 11 2021 12: 11
      +2
      5th generation without 4 months 30 years. More than a decent age. The fact that other countries have just started producing them is their problem. Russia has degraded economically, politically and technically and continues to do so; China is just getting to the required technical level; Japan, France and Britain technically can and even made 5s (X-2 and F-35), only there is no enemy against them and their 4s are superior to their rivals; South Korea and Turkey are not yet capable of independently creating the 5th generation; India is a very strange guy.
      1. DMi
        DMi April 11 2021 12: 38
        0
        All letaki, declared as the fifth generation, are currently unfinished semi-finished products. And f22 and f35 as well. And it is very significant that 30 years have passed and there are still no new cars. Well this is how many years it will take for the sixth) I will not be surprised that the "sixth" will not be done even at the end of the century.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 11 2021 15: 08
      +1
      "But they are already running to invent the sixth)" ///
      ---
      And they’re doing it right. good
      Everything happens quickly in aviation.
      What was pleasing to the eye yesterday, today - exhibits for museums.
      1. DMi
        DMi April 11 2021 15: 15
        +1
        The fact that the production of F15 was resumed just shows that everything in modern aviation is happening very slowly.
        1. Nestor Vlakhovski
          Nestor Vlakhovski April 11 2021 20: 08
          0
          The production of the F-15 never stopped; just recently, the USAF entered service with a new modernization of the Eagle 2 to replace the old machines.
  • velikoros-xnumx
    velikoros-xnumx April 11 2021 12: 44
    0
    and the understanding that one country is unlikely to be able to pull out the development of a sixth generation fighter, unless, of course, this country is the United States or China

    And not Russia ...
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek April 11 2021 22: 05
      0
      What will prevent the United States from doing this?
  • Glagol1
    Glagol1 April 11 2021 22: 33
    0
    They will definitely agree. But not the fact that both models will be so good. Now Rafal, Typhoon, Gripen. Then there will be 2. It will take another 30-40 years and there will be one. Pan-European. If only we could do something together with someone ...
    It will be hard alone.
  • Gregory Charnota
    Gregory Charnota April 20 2021 18: 31
    0
    Why should the Americans have competitors in the form of an airbus in the market for combat aircraft?
    they will never allow it
    1. Yaroslav Tekkel
      Yaroslav Tekkel 7 June 2021 15: 20
      -1
      I love such loud statements. And on an even more delicious civil aircraft market, does it mean they need competitors in the form of an airplane? And then something they were not only allowed, but also in the light of the last success Boeing is clearly dumping the world market. And the sale of Typhoons, Rafaley and Gripenov also somehow cannot be "prevented".