Military Review

Polish Navy between World Wars

64
Polish Navy between World Wars

Genesis



Following the collapse of three empires (Russian, German and Austrian), the Polish state was revived in 1918. Together with the revival, it took over a number of Russian and German lands proper, receiving as a bonus 90 km of the Baltic coast, which now had to be defended. So the creation of polish fleet was a logical and inevitable phenomenon, especially given the fact that the Versailles agreements could not last forever, and the mess in Russia generated by the Civil War was a purely temporary phenomenon. And the question for the reconstituted Rzecz Pospolita was, rather, not whether you will have to answer for the annexed lands, but WHEN you will have to.

Strictly speaking, the naval component should not have caused any particular concerns. 90 km is 90 km, four heavy batteries will cover them completely, and if the cannons are at least 305 mm in caliber in the towers, and with concrete dungeons - like Soviet batteries ... You can't bite them not only from the sea, you won't bite them from land ... If, however, minefields are set up, and torpedo boats are hidden behind them and covered with a hundred aircraft from the air, a fortress will come out worse than Port Arthur. The rest of the funds for the Poles should have been spent on the army - a narrow corridor to the sea was squeezed between East Prussia and Germany proper, and from the East adjoined the free city of Danzig, formally independent, but 95 percent German. And in general - having the USSR, Germany, Lithuania and the Chechen Republic as potential adversaries, having occupied vast territories with the Ukrainian and Belarusian populations, there was no sense in bothering with this very corridor and maritime affairs. To keep the grabbed and suppress possible riots, an army was needed, not a navy. But...



“On February 10, 1920, in Puck, the only town (actually a fishing village on the Baltic Sea coast) donated to Poland, Poland's wedding to the sea took place. The rings were made by the commander of the Pomor front, General Jozef Haller, together with a delegation of Kashubians and local fishermen. "

And in 1922, the construction of the port and the city of Gdynia began, and in 1928, a naval base and the Hel fortified area were erected on the Hel Spit to cover the port. In principle, there was nothing of the kind in this - its own port (although with special rights in the Free City of Danzig it was possible not to bother) it is always good, and it must be protected. But the Poles were carrying and in addition to their own they grabbed a piece of Danzig, creating there warehouses and a base - Westerplatte. Well, the ships, in general, there were a lot of plans, the Poles wanted no less colonies:


“In 1937, The Colonial Theses of Poland were published. From that time on, Poland began to regularly hold the "Week of the Sea" under the motto "We need a strong fleet and colonies." In 1938 it was decided to hold the so-called "Days of the Colonies" with mass demonstrations and solemn divine services in churches. The Marine and Colonial League urged: “Let no one remain indifferent, let everyone's voice turn into a strong cry: We demand free access to resources! We demand colonies for Poland! " Colonial claims extended to Togo, Cameroon, Madagascar, Liberia, land in Brazil, Argentina, and even a site in Antarctica. Poland wanted to take away Angola and Mozambique from Portugal, to place settlers in French colonies in Africa. Rhodesia was also discussed. An attempt has also been made to assert claims against Trinidad and Tobago, Gambia. "

And for this a powerful fleet was needed.

Expectations



But it did not work out with him, something did not work out from Soviet Russia, and from Germany got six destroyers - four type "A" and two "V-105" and "V-108" from the Dutch order. They were accompanied by four "FM" type minesweepers and two "Vodorez" type SKRs of the Russian fleet purchased from the Finns. In principle - a dream, strengthen Gdynia and Hel, build a replacement for the ships you received ... But I repeat, these are Poles:

"Developed in 1920, the 10-year military shipbuilding program provided for the construction of no less than two battleships, six cruisers, 28 destroyers and a large number of small ships."

At the same time, according to the Polish source, there was catastrophically little money in the country:

“The Polish state at that time was ravaged by wars and poverty, as evidenced by the fact that, within the framework of economy, it was decided to allocate funds for fuel only for some of the ships. On the way to Gdansk, they had to tow the rest. "

But plans are not a hindrance, are they? And in 1924 a new program was developed, this time a small one:

"... in 12 years the Polish Navy was to be replenished with 2 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 12 destroyers, 12 submarines."

Which, however, also failed for lack of money, and in 1936, when the impossibility of the second became clear, the third program was adopted ... also unfulfilled:

"... until 1942, it was planned to build 8 destroyers, 12 submarines, 1 minelayer, 12 minesweepers and 10 torpedo boats."

Well, at least it looks like the real one. By the way, about reality.

Reality



The real Polish fleet began with a cruiser, or rather, not quite a cruiser. In 1927, the Poles bought the French armored cruiser "D'Antrcasto" from the Belgians, renamed it "Baltic" and used it as a training ship. But it's cool - both French and real ... almost. The second in displacement in the Polish fleet was the minelayer, also known as the presidential yacht "Gryf", with a capacity of 2200 tons and six 120 mm guns, capable of taking 600 mines. Air defense, however, only two double-barreled "bofors", and the speed of 20 knots, but for coastal defense is nothing. But the Poles were clearly in trouble with the destroyers, and not only with the types, but also with the plans:

"The destroyers, if necessary, should have been able to quickly reach the area of ​​the Soviet base in Leningrad and conduct at least two attacks on enemy ships before they reach the Polish coast, including battleships heading towards Gdynia and Hel."

Well, the unfinished "Muscovites" were supposed to be finished off by submarines. It’s better not to think about what a pair of Kirovs, a pair of leaders and 6-8 sevens would have done with the four destroyers of Poland, the Poles feel sorry for even a minute. The first pair of these four are clones of the French Bourrasque, with four 130/40 guns and 2X3 TA 550 mm guns. The second pair - type "Thunder", capable of carrying seven 120 mm guns and were either leaders (the Soviet carried 5 guns, for example), or already armored light cruisers. In addition to this four, the Poles had a submarine fleet - five submarines (of which three minelayers built in the early 30s), 6 small minesweepers with a displacement of 200 tons and, in fact, that's all. From the ships of the early 20s, two gunboats, ex-Russian TFR, survived until the war. The classic "wide on the cat, narrow on the dog" came out. For a war with the USSR or with Germany, this was negligible, for the defense of the coast - excessive. And the money spent was gone, and it was possible to build Tanks, aircraft, artillery pieces ... On some of the destroyers there was an artillery regiment, and even with anti-aircraft cover. And what happened in the end?

War



Actually, the participation of the Navy in the defense of Poland was reduced to three operations, and one of them began even before the start of the war and was the most successful. It was called "Plan Beijing" and consisted in the flight of three of the four destroyers to England. On August 29, at 12:55, after receiving a signal, the destroyers rushed to the Danish Straits and at the time of the outbreak of the war were already in the North Sea. The fourth destroyer, together with the mine layer, were sunk by the German aviation in Hel on the third day of the war. The fact is that the entire naval aviation of Poland consisted of six seaplanes ...

The second operation can be very conditionally called the defense of Westerplatte, if, of course, the battles of the Danzig militia with a company of Poles can be characterized by such a word. Even the fact that the battleship "Shelswig-Holstein" (pre-dreadnought of the Russian-Japanese era) shot at the Poles does not make it that way. However, the company of Poles honestly fought back for as long as a week, losing 15 people and inflicting serious losses on the Germans of 400 people. It seems to me - mainly to local militias, and not to the assault company attached to them ... In Poland it is now a national myth, like we have about the Brest Fortress, although, of course, it is better not to compare the scale, and somehow raise our white flag somehow did not know how ... The Poles themselves, by the way, were silent about surrender in their press, telling tales about the battle to the last living soldier:

"On the eighth day of the Polish-German war, September 8 this year at 11:40 am, in a valiant struggle at a combat post, the last defender from the Westerplatte garrison, who defended the Polish Baltic Sea, died."

The third episode is the defense of the Hel naval base. It just lasted a month, but Hel is a scythe, three thousand soldiers, the entire Polish fleet and three coastal batteries were concentrated there. There was anti-aircraft cover and minefields. Accordingly, the Germans for some time were not particularly eager to bash their foreheads. And when they started in earnest - Hel with the surviving ships quickly surrendered. And he did the right thing - by October 2, Poland was gone. The submarines, however, went - three to Sweden, two to England.

Сonclusion


Still, the Poles, having spent a lot of money, managed to build both the navy and the infrastructure, but at the very first clash with the enemy, with whom they had been preparing to fight for 18 years, all this turned out to be practically useless. For example, you can take the same Finland - spending much less money, they created the Navy much more efficiently, simply for the reason that they were not going to colonize Africa and Antarctica.
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Polish Navy
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. Machito
      Machito April 5 2021 19: 18
      +1
      The Polish fleet distinguished itself with its retreats.
      Now they dream of frigates. laughing lol fellow
      1. Installer
        Installer April 6 2021 00: 26
        -2
        Poland at that time in its ambitions and plans for the fleet is very similar to Ukraine today. But all this ended in disaster for Poland.
        1. Machito
          Machito April 6 2021 00: 32
          +2
          But for Poland, nothing is over yet. Frigates want to build, submarines, they threaten their neighbors, they want Poland from May to May. I smell it, soon the Fourth Partition of Poland will be. And let the Poles go to Canada, build a colony. laughing fellow
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. Pereira
      Pereira April 5 2021 18: 59
      +2
      Learn geography, serf.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Pereira
          Pereira April 5 2021 20: 03
          +5
          First, historical geography is worth studying. To know what was and what never was.
          Secondly, the Russian map until 2014 includes the periods from the conquest of Crimea. Crimea became Russian when Ukrainians had not yet been invented.
          Third, ask what the Curzon line is. However, I'm afraid you won't understand anything.
          As for Poland holding Moscow, are you talking about how the Polish peel in the Kremlin locked itself up and ate each other? It was like that, I admit. So what?
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Pereira
              Pereira April 5 2021 21: 49
              +5
              That is why, my friend, the Curzon line is the ethnic border between Poles and Russians. And in the 12-14 centuries, the ethnic map was not much different.
              It just makes me laugh when someone rejects Russia's right to their lands just because someone wants to profit at someone else's expense. And now that's it. The freebie is over.
              Apart from the Ukrainian media, I have never read such petty and groundless claims anywhere. Although, the Balts are also famous for this. However, both the Balts, the Ukrainians, and the Finns are the peoples of the 5th category, who have never in history had their own state and gained independence only by the grace of Russia.
              Do you know that in 1918 Ukraine was created by Ludendorff and supported by Lenin?
              These two are the creators of today's Ukraine. Monuments to them should be on every corner.
              It's a shame not to know your founding fathers.
            2. Roman81
              April 5 2021 21: 55
              +3
              Because this is the line of ethnic differentiation between Poles and Ukrainians and Belarusians. And it was this line as the border of the degree of hatred between us and the Poles that sharply lowered
          2. Roman81
            April 5 2021 21: 55
            +4
            Was the second time. Then they dragged along with Napoleon. Gone is really not enough
          3. Constanty
            Constanty April 5 2021 23: 05
            -1
            the Curzon line - is the product of the Jew Lewis Bernstein Namier - the fierce enemy of Poland and Polish territorial aspirations in the East
        2. Bolt cutter
          Bolt cutter April 5 2021 20: 40
          -2
          Vasya, did you come here from Zhmerinka?
          1. Pereira
            Pereira April 5 2021 21: 50
            +1
            I didn’t come, but I got lost.
  3. Eldorado
    Eldorado April 5 2021 18: 26
    +1
    Minrovy? am
    1. Flooding
      Flooding April 5 2021 18: 57
      +1
      obvious mistake
      should have written "mirnovy"
  4. sergo1914
    sergo1914 April 5 2021 18: 27
    +8
    ... In Poland, it is now a national myth, like we have about the Brest Fortress


    Well this is what a cleverness one must possess to make such comparisons, but on the eve of Victory Day.
    1. Pereira
      Pereira April 5 2021 21: 51
      +1
      Those who were defeated in the Second World War are activated in time for May 8 - the day of the defeat of Hitler's Europe.
    2. Roman81
      April 5 2021 21: 52
      +6
      Normal comparison. Each country has its own fortress, some have a real one, some like the Poles
  5. Undecim
    Undecim April 5 2021 18: 37
    +7
    One gets the impression that the author is the second hypostasis of Frolova or the reincarnation of Kharaluzhny. In any case, the only thing that the author successfully does is lower the reputation of the site.
    Together with the revival, it took over a number of Russian and German lands proper, receiving as a bonus 90 km of the Baltic coast, which now had to be defended.
    Such a shameless lie is a sign of obvious disrespect for the readership.
    Poland did not take anything from what was listed by the author. Poland received part of the German province of Posen and access to the Baltic under the Treaty of Versailles. Part of Upper Silesia was transferred to Poland by decision of the League of Nations.
    The territory of the former Russian Empire went to Poland under the Riga Peace Treaty. The Teshin region was divided with Czechoslovakia following negotiations.
    It can be considered that Poland "grabbed" the Vilna region from Lithuania. But the League of Nations recognized this acquisition too.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins April 5 2021 19: 05
      +4
      The shortage of personnel, apparently ...
      And about Westerplatte, the author spoke frivolously like that. To put him in the barracks for a week (although there were bunkers), under fire from an old battleship. What would the Germans pearl like from a cornucopia.
      Probably then I would have believed that he was the only one who fought!
      Even the losses inflicted on the enemy command respect.
      1. Roman81
        April 5 2021 21: 53
        +5
        There machine guns were almost like fighters, and Danzig's militia stormed, in fact. As for under fire - this is to the defenders of Brest, their wings were more calibers, but for some reason, after the loss of 15 people, they did not surrender
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins April 5 2021 22: 02
          -2
          In general, there are 15 killed and 53 wounded. This is from 182 military and 27 civilians, almost a third.
          The percentage is more significant.
          And why compare with the Brest Fortress? The forces that collided here and there are incomparable. It is not correct!
          1. Roman81
            April 5 2021 22: 08
            +1
            the situation is comparable. Defense with no chance of release. The Red Army held on, the Poles capitulated
            1. Constanty
              Constanty April 5 2021 23: 15
              0
              It was not a similar situation. After the construction of Gdynia, the transit station in Gdansk became de facto unnecessary. Only for propaganda reasons, there was a Polish crew here, which, according to the plan, was only supposed to show Polish resistance for 12 hours (later increased to 24 hours). The task was completed.

              In the Brest Fortress, the soldiers fought heroically to the end - after all, their task was not only temporary resistance.
              1. Roman81
                April 6 2021 08: 16
                0
                There, for a second, they were preparing the transfer of another 700 military personnel. And yes, Westeplatte didn't really matter besides one thing - to intimidate the residents of Danzig.
    2. Roman81
      April 5 2021 21: 51
      +3
      The League of Nations just recognized a lot of things, as many as tens of millions of lives in World War II as a result of recognition. From this, these lands became Polish?
      1. Undecim
        Undecim April 5 2021 21: 55
        0
        Don't pull the League of Nations owl on your propaganda globe. It won't make him any better.
        1. Roman81
          April 5 2021 22: 09
          +2
          that is, Ukraine should transfer the Kresuva Vukhudni to Poland?
          1. Undecim
            Undecim April 5 2021 22: 37
            0
            Kresuvy Vsuhudni let them take away. If they find it. With you, a polyglot is the same as a historian - no. All the best.
            1. Roman81
              April 5 2021 22: 38
              +2
              when there is nothing to say on the topic, but it's a shame for native Ukraine
              1. Undecim
                Undecim April 5 2021 22: 42
                0
                On the topic, I have already told you everything in my first comment. Trolling your status will not change anything.
    3. No name B
      No name B April 5 2021 22: 09
      +2
      The Cieszyn region was divided with Czechoslovakia following negotiations.

      Captured together with the Germans in 1938. during the capture of Czechoslovakia by the Germans, for which Churchill called Poland the hyena of Europe !!! Do not lie.
      1. Constanty
        Constanty April 5 2021 23: 21
        0
        At the end of July 1919, the Polish side proposed to hold a plebiscite in the Teshin and Frishatsky districts. In the summer of 1920, during Tukhachevsky's offensive against Warsaw, Czech Foreign Minister Edvard Beneš took advantage of the situation in Poland and, at a conference in Spa, forced the powers to decide without a plebiscite to partition Cieszyn Silesia. Minister Vladislav Grabsky agreed, counting on the help of the powers in the face of the Bolshevik invasion of Poland.
        In 1938, Poland returned these lands - although I admit it - under shameful circumstances.
  6. Constanty
    Constanty April 5 2021 19: 02
    +2
    Still, the Poles, having spent a lot of money, managed to build both the navy and the infrastructure, but at the very first clash with the enemy, with whom they had been preparing to fight for 18 years, all this turned out to be practically useless. For example, you can take the same Finland - spending much less money, they created the Navy much more efficiently, simply for the reason that they were not going to colonize Africa and Antarctica.


    The conclusions are completely wrong.
    First, the Polish fleet was originally created to fight not with Germany, but with the USSR. This is evidenced by the composition and characteristics of individual ships - for example, the Orzel submarines, which in Polish historiography are now called "Gangutkillers", or mine-and-mine ships - ships of the "Grif" and "Wilk" types.

    Although, indeed, in Poland there was a Maritime and Colonial League, and for example the slogan "Jews in [Polish] Madagascar" was loud among people of fantasies, the expansion of PMW had nothing to do with the word at all. His goal was to "blockade" the KBF in the Gulf of Finland and to protect the supply convoys from the allies - on a hooray optimistic assumption, of course.

    Thirdly, I sincerely doubt that the construction of two coastal defense battleships of the Ilmarinen class and four submarines (the Saukko and three ships of the Vetehinen class) would be much cheaper than the Polish ships. It should be remembered that the Finns did not have to build the entire infrastructure from scratch.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 5 2021 19: 41
      +2
      Quote: Constanty
      two coastal defense battleships of the Ilmarinen class

      What kind of beast is this - a coastal defense battleship? Maybe it's a coastal defense battleship. drinks
      1. Constanty
        Constanty April 5 2021 19: 57
        +3
        Of course a coastal defense battleship, the translator decided otherwise recourse or maybe even just an "armored ship" - Panssarilaiva - as its Finnish classification sounded
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka April 5 2021 20: 03
        +1
        I could not resist and laid out illustrations on the theme of the Battleship of coastal defense "Väinämöinen"


        10 "guns is good, but not enough for a battleship, at least 11"!
        At one time, they tried to attract a lot of things to the class of battleships from the Greek undersized, which the Germans later let for scrap, to the "broken battleships" of Deutschland, but the Spanish series Hispano should be considered the smallest battleship (dreadnought). At the lowest level, but they went through the main performance characteristics in the battleship club. Unlike the Swedish and Finnish counterparts.
        1. sergo1914
          sergo1914 April 5 2021 22: 19
          +1
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          I could not resist and laid out illustrations on the theme of the Battleship of coastal defense "Väinämöinen"


          10 "guns is good, but not enough for a battleship, at least 11"!
          At one time, they tried to attract a lot of things to the class of battleships from the Greek undersized, which the Germans later let for scrap, to the "broken battleships" of Deutschland, but the Spanish series Hispano should be considered the smallest battleship (dreadnought). At the lowest level, but they went through the main performance characteristics in the battleship club. Unlike the Swedish and Finnish counterparts.


          I like these irons with big guns. There is something fascinating about them. The British generally hit the HMS M-15.


        2. Constanty
          Constanty April 5 2021 22: 41
          +1
          "Väinämöinen" after the war was handed over to the USSR as reparations and served in the Navy as Vyborg.
    2. Roman81
      April 5 2021 21: 58
      -5
      There was a doctrine of two threats. They prepared both in the West and in the East
      1. Constanty
        Constanty April 5 2021 22: 50
        +4
        Not true. Yes, Poland had two natural enemies, but she was not going to go to war with both of them. This is best expressed by Pilsudski: "When it comes to the war with Germany and the Soviets, we will have to fight with saber in hand in Saska Square in Warsaw."

        In annual polls, when they were asked who the most dangerous and real enemy was, the generals always chose the USSR. And until 1935 this was absolutely justified.
        The fleet was also preparing for a conflict with the USSR, fully realizing that because of the border scheme, in the event of a war with the Third Reich, the Polish Navy was doomed to immediate disappearance.
        The fleet for the war with Germany was not built!
        this belief formed the basis of the "Peking" plan - sending the best surface ships to Great Britain before the outbreak of the conflict. ORP "Wicher" was left behind for propaganda reasons.
    3. Roman81
      April 5 2021 22: 00
      -2
      Why do the Poles need ships for the war in the skerries? A sensible fleet in their situation are coastal batteries, TKA, mine loaders and a few gunboats for the patrol service. Well, the Air Force
      1. Constanty
        Constanty April 5 2021 22: 59
        +3
        I did not write that Poland should build ships for the war in the skerries. And I meant this snippet
        the same Finland - spending much less money, they created the Navy much more efficiently, simply for the reason that they did not intend to colonize Africa and Antarctica.


        - incorrect when it comes to the facts and the cost of ships, and meaningless when it comes to naming the reason for this and not another composition of the Polish fleet.
        1. Roman81
          April 6 2021 08: 18
          -3
          The fleet is not only ships, it is, firstly, and secondly - based on the tasks the Finnish fleet fulfilled its tasks, the Polish one did not. There is no other measure of efficiency
          1. Constanty
            Constanty April 6 2021 09: 27
            +1
            In terms of the funds spent and the size of the fleet, the Polish fleet was no worse than the Soviet one. I write very gently. The RKKF did not fulfill any of its tasks. The defense of Leningrad in this way was not provided for in the pre-war plans.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 6 2021 12: 00
              0
              Quote: Constanty
              The RKKF did not fulfill any of its tasks.

              Through no fault of their own. For
              Quote: Constanty
              The defense of Leningrad in this way was not provided for in the pre-war plans.

              If, after a couple of months of war, the army rolls back to the outer contours of the main base of the fleet and the approaches to the rear base of the fleet, simultaneously taking away the aircraft from the fleet - what kind of mission accomplishment by the fleet can be discussed.
              And it was not in the same Baltic fleet - there were naval forces subordinate to the ground (and not promptly, but directly).
              1. Constanty
                Constanty April 6 2021 14: 29
                +2
                Quote: Constanty
                The RKKF did not fulfill any of its tasks.

                Through no fault of their own. For

                I am not judging who is to blame. I am stating a fact.
            2. Roman81
              April 6 2021 14: 22
              0
              He fulfilled the main task - he helped in the defense of the country. And on communications in 1942 they gloriously came off. Chances of 4 Polish destroyers to attack the Baltic Fleet in Kronstadt tended to minus infinity.
              1. Constanty
                Constanty April 6 2021 14: 36
                +1
                It only shows that you do not understand what you are writing about. Before the war, the RKKF did not have the task of artillery support for the defense of Leningrad. The KBF faced completely different tasks.

                Yes, and on communications in 1942, they gloriously came off

                I think you know the alternate history of the war. Soviet submarines played an active role on enemy lines of communication only after the surrender of Finland in 1944.
                This in no way diminishes the heroism of those who fell in the explosion of minefields earlier - they were simply given impossible tasks.

                And the Polish destroyers in no way planned to attack Kronstadt - no one thought about such nonsense (maybe, except for you). They were supposed to be used to escort convoys with supplies, or to escort the Gria on the approaches to the Gulf of Finland and not a step further. The main role in the collision with the Soviet fleet was assigned to submarines. 3 types "Wolf" as minelayers and two types "Eagle" - fast response due to high surface speed and powerful torpedo salvo. And this is at the entrance to the bay, not deeper.
  7. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 5 2021 19: 48
    +4
    In 1927, the Poles bought the French armored cruiser "D'Antrcasteau" from the Belgians
    It is not true, the Belgians did not sell the cruiser donated by the French to the Poles, but returned the gift to the French. By the way, it was towed from Bruges to Cherbourg at the expense of the Belgian treasury. And, by the way, before the transfer to the Belgians, the cruiser was completely disarmed in Brest.
  8. Alexander Betonkin
    Alexander Betonkin April 5 2021 19: 58
    +2
    After the ships and boats left, the fleet continued to fight. During the war, the Polish exile fleet was supplemented by leased British ships, including two cruisers (HMS Danae / ORP Conrad and HMS Dragon / ORP Dragon), seven destroyers, three submarines and a number of small fast ships. The Polish fleet fought side by side with the allied fleets in Norway, the North Sea, the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, and also assisted in escorting Atlantic and Arctic convoys. The Polish fleet - https://ru.qaz.wiki/wiki/Polish_Navy
    1. Roman81
      April 5 2021 21: 57
      -5
      The English fleet fought on some of the ships of which there were Polish crews. The fleet is not five boxes, it is much more, and this more was lost in 1939
      1. Alexander Betonkin
        Alexander Betonkin April 5 2021 22: 04
        0
        Maybe I wrote a little wrong. I meant that the sailors were great, they fought. According to Polish data - "In addition to participating in the sinking of the Bismarck, the Polish fleet sank an enemy destroyer and six other surface ships, two submarines and several merchant ships.."
        1. Roman81
          April 5 2021 22: 07
          -3
          the British gave them boxes there. I did not find it, but either the sailors escaped, or the locals supplemented the shortage. Of course, they fought, but if instead of that tanks and planes were built, and Westerplat was also evacuated on time ...
          1. Alexander Betonkin
            Alexander Betonkin April 5 2021 22: 55
            +1
            I did not find the cost of Polish units. Let's try a comparison with the USSR. Destroyer "Crushing" - 23188 thousand tons 26 - 61400. So 377 tanks. Approximately and very rude. Armored brigade - In total, the brigade but the wartime staff has 5026 people, including 216 officers, 16 light tanks, 25 tankettes, eight field guns, 36 - 37-mm anti-aircraft guns, four - 40-mm anti-aircraft guns, 713 vehicles. We divide 377 by 16 = 23 brigades. Where would Poland take an additional 115598 fighters, not counting guns and vehicles (multiplying everything by 23) is a question.
            I did not write all this in order to recount - all this is nonsense. You just wrote - "but if instead tanks and airplanes were built"By the way, in addition to additional tanks and aircraft, all sorts of repair bases and airfields are still needed. And this costs money. Well, each country had its own military doctrine.
            1. Comrade
              Comrade April 6 2021 02: 51
              +2
              Quote: Alexander Betonkin
              I did not find the cost of Polish units.

              With your permission, colleague, this information is at my fingertips.

              Submarine type "Orzeł" - about 10 zł
              Mine layer "Gryf" - 13 313 675 zł
              Minesweeper type "Jaskółka" - 2 250 000 zł
              Destroyer type "Wicher" - 21 637 800 zł
              Destroyer type "Grom" - 27 411 972 zł

              The most advanced of the Polish tanks, the 7TP, cost 181 zł (without weapons) and 231 zł (with weapons)
              Two-turret tank Vickers E cost 111 zł (purchased through Finland).
              The most advanced of the Polish bombers, the PZL-37b Łoś, cost 580 zł.
              The PZL P-11c fighter cost 178 zł.
              1. Tochilka
                Tochilka April 6 2021 07: 13
                0
                It would be interesting to read about the cost of weapons in an article. A rare topic. Write if possible.
                1. Comrade
                  Comrade April 6 2021 21: 43
                  0
                  Quote: Tochilka
                  It would be interesting to read about the cost of weapons in an article. A rare topic. Write if possible.


                  The site administration is not interested in my articles.
                  But if you are interested in this topic, then here is a link to my work, posted about eight years ago.
                  "On the question of the relationship between the budgets of the Naval Department and the War Ministry of the Russian Empire at the beginning of the twentieth century.".
                  http://alternathistory.com/k-voprosu-o-sootnoshenii-byudzhetov-morskogo-vedomstva-i-voennogo-ministerstva-rossijskoj-imperii-v-nachale-hh-veka/

                  If you are interested in the cost of samples of weapons of the Polish army of the interwar period, then I can share information - from small arms and artillery weapons to armored vehicles and military steam locomotives.
  9. vavilon
    vavilon April 5 2021 20: 48
    -2
    the wheel of history returns it's time for the Slovenians to return to their home harbor
  10. Comrade
    Comrade April 6 2021 02: 26
    +6
    the participation of the navy in the defense of Poland was reduced to three operations, and one of them began even before the start of the war and was the most successful. It was called "Plan Beijing" and consisted of the flight of three of the four destroyers to England.

    Roman, you are even more distant from the theme of the Polish fleet of the interwar period than from the theme of the Russian-Japanese war. Why do you write about these topics, because you absolutely do not understand these issues? I suppose, you are also paid money for your hacks ..
    Aren't you ashamed to expose your incompetence on public display? Or do you simply not realize how depressingly low the level of your "articles" is?

    Now a couple of words on the quote from your text.
    No there was no "Beijing plan", As you say, this is fiction.

    In reality, events developed as follows.
    On August 30, 1939, Marshal Rydz-Smigly decided to send a detachment of ships to England, and on the same day, at 12:55 pm, a triple flag signal was transmitted from the signal tower in Oksyvye "Dyon KT. Peking". At 14:15 the destroyers Błyskawica, Grom and Burza (it was decided to leave the same type of the last "Wicher" in Gdynia due to the need to repair mechanisms) headed for the open sea.
    About thirty miles off the coast, the detachment was first spotted by the U-31 submarine, and then by the patrol boat Vorpostenboot 7. Abeam the Danish island of Bornholm, the Poles again came into view of the German ships, this time unnoticed by the destroyers Friedrich Ihn, " Erich Steinbrinck, Friedrich Eckoldt and Bruno Heinemann. At midnight in the Sound, the Polish unit stumbled upon the light cruiser Königsberg, accompanied by a destroyer and two destroyers, T 107 and T 111. A military alert was announced on Polish ships, but there was no collision, since the Kriegsmarine ships did not have an order to open military action. On August 31, after passing the Kattegat and Skagerrak straits, the Poles were again noticed by the Germans, this time by submarines U 5 and U 19, after which they remained under the supervision of two German seaplanes for some time. In order to get rid of the unwanted air escort, the Polish unit lay on a course for the coast of Norway. This coincided in time with the transmission of the German radio station in Breslau, which had a separate channel broadcasting in Polish, informing listeners about the departure of the destroyer battalion from Poland. On the night of August 31 to September 1, the group again headed for Great Britain, after which it entered the North Sea. In the morning, at 09:25, the crews learned by radio about the beginning of the war. Three and a half hours later, the Polish ships were met by the British destroyers Wallace and Wanderer, who handed over one of the destroyers a communications officer, Captain S. Denis, as well as a signalman and radiotelegraph operator. At 17:37, after a passage that lasted over fifty-one hours, the Polish ships arrived at the port of Edinburgh Leith.
    On the picture. Churchill inspects the destroyer Burza (opens on "click").
    1. Roman81
      April 6 2021 08: 24
      -3
      And what's wrong with me, apart from the details of Operation Beijing, which are fully posted on Wiki? And which makes no sense in the review? Or have I missed other battles of the glorious Polish fleet to defend their native land? So they were not, in the sense of just do. Even the PLs have achieved nothing in a month. How far am I? That the Poles built a beautiful and useless toy that fled with the beginning of the war? And yes, as a connoisseur, the British proposed the Beijing operation, the Poles did not want to at first
      1. Anzhey V.
        Anzhey V. April 6 2021 10: 53
        +4
        what is wrong with me besides the details


        You, frankly, everything is "wrong")

        You have absolutely no knowledge of naval topics - even at the encyclopedic level. Honestly, it takes a lot more time to parse your opus than you spent on writing it.

        A friend's comment carries more information than your "article".

        Alas, alas.
        1. Roman81
          April 6 2021 14: 24
          -2
          A Pole would write about the RKKF, I would also be offended
          1. Anzhey V.
            Anzhey V. April 6 2021 15: 03
            +2
            It would be very disappointing if I were a Pole. And so by - however, judging by the conclusions in your articles, you have this stable phenomenon)
      2. Comrade
        Comrade April 6 2021 22: 15
        +1
        Quote: Roman81
        And what’s wrong with me, besides the details of the Beijing operation


        You don’t have to go far for examples.

        Quote: Roman81
        And in 1924 a new program was developed, this time a small one: “... in 12 years the Polish Navy was to be replenished with 2 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 12 destroyers, 12 submarines. Which, however, also failed for lack of money "


        "Minimum program"or, as you call it,"small", was developed by specialists of the" French Maritime Commission ", headed by the French Rear Admiral Sh. Jovile, and had only advisory character. And you present it as real the fleet development program, which could not be implemented due to lack of funds.
        In fact, Roman, the leadership of the Polish Navy not adopted this program, proposed by the French, and prepared a different plan for the development of the fleet, which, moreover, covered a different period of time. You don't have a word about it. By the way, not only financial problems, but also technical and personnel problems stood in the way of the implementation of this French 12-year program.
  11. Normal ok
    Normal ok April 7 2021 08: 44
    -4
    and if the cannons are at least 305 mm in caliber and in the towers, but with concrete dungeons - like Soviet batteries ... They are not only from the sea, you will not bite them from land.

    The 411 battery near Odessa, and these are 3 190-mm guns, held the defensive until the withdrawal of troops from Odessa. According to the official version, it was blown up by Soviet troops during the retreat. Personally, I climbed underground, = all structures are intact, but the lower tiers are flooded with groundwater .. apparently only the guns were blown up. And, in general, quite wow. I climbed "and in the 412 battery. There in the Soviet years there was the ZKP of the district (now abandoned. I remember when Yazov went there at the Yug-90 exercises), - the same picture.