Military Review

Combat ships. Cruisers. And what was it all for?

56
We have already spoken about the family of Japanese light cruisers of the Kuma class, now it makes sense to consider one of the class representatives in a little more detail. He deserves it, and not because one survived from the whole family, but because he became the object of serious experiments.


Yes, you guessed it. Kitakami.

Combat ships. Cruisers. And what was it all for?

The motto of this ship could be the slogan "I live in an era of global changes!" Fairly, by the way.

The fact that the Japanese were very tough guys, even capable of attaching floats to a hellish penguin and attaching a torpedo is a fact. And all the time their experiments, personally, I just aroused awe, because in reality, well, there was nothing sacred for them.

One dubious conversion of battleships into aircraft carriers is worth something. And I'm not talking about "Shinano", everything was more or less decently decorated there. This is in the direction of "Hyuga" and "Ise", which ceased to be battleships, but could not be aircraft carriers.


Well, roughly, like our "Admiral Kuznetsov", neither an aircraft carrier nor a cruiser. So these were "unknown animals", if in a fabulous way.

Are cruisers made of other metal? Why can't you make fun of cruisers? Easy. If Mikado orders, what will the samurai answer? Whoa ... From the battle cruiser "Akagi" it turned out quite a normal aircraft carrier. There were projects to convert the heavy cruisers "Aoba" into something aircraft-carrying, and this process has come down to light cruisers.

Kitakami was very lucky. They decided not to turn it into an airplane. But this does not mean that everything was fine. I would say that on the contrary, over any ship in the Japanese imperial navy (and, therefore, in the whole world) were not so bullied.


History We will leave aside the appearance of the Kuma-class cruisers (link), in fact, the Kuma-class was supposed to counterbalance the American Omaha-class cruisers. It was a very difficult task, because initially the cruiser was badly nailed in the project.

"Kuma" could hardly oppose something to "Omaha", since the "Kuma" out of seven guns on the bow or stern could only shoot three, and six guns took part in the side salvo. Omaha didn't have much, but better. Six guns could be fired at the bow and stern, the side salvo - eight of the twelve guns.

In general, according to the project, the Kuma initially had a displacement of 3 tons and 500 4-mm guns ...

Realizing that the under-leader / re-destroyer is not needed by the imperial fleet, it is just the Americans who need it, who will hone their shooting skills on it, the Japanese began to remake the Kuma.

Alteration first


The guns have become 7. Already better. The cruising range was increased from 6 to 000 miles. The power of the cars was also almost doubled, from 9 to 000 thousand hp. As a result, the total displacement jumped from 50 to 90 tons. The speed also decreased, from 4 to 900 knots, but now it is not so critical. Kitakami could no longer lead the destroyers, but this was not in his main duties either.

Moreover, I had to save on everything again. Even the guns were placed in semi-towers, that is, in towers without a rear wall. Moreover, the thickness of the walls was as much as 20 millimeters, so we can say that the gun servants had no protection at all.


But following the new concept of torpedo ships, instead of two three-tube torpedo tubes of 533-mm caliber, they installed four two-tube torpedo tubes on the Kitakami. Yes, I had to put it on board, but the angles of launching the torpedoes were very convenient. Better than Omaha.



In general, the ship "got fat", it became more like a cruiser, but the traits of a destroyer leader still remained: weak armor, which could protect against destroyer shells (120-127 mm) at long (40-50 cable) distances, and from shells of real light cruisers (152-mm) even at great distances.

The artillery was well reinforced, as was the torpedo armament. So it turned out to be something between a normal light cruiser and a destroyer leader. Cruiser Scout, but not very fast. In general, it turned out so-so. A very light cruiser that could only fight destroyers and destroyers.


Anti-aircraft weapons were also weak. Two 76 mm universal guns and two 6,5 mm machine guns. So, taking this opportunity, 13,2 mm machine guns and 25 mm coaxial anti-aircraft guns were installed instead.

Having built a bunch of ships (14 pieces) of the "Kuma", "Nagara" and "Sendai" types, the Japanese calmed down a little, and took up the destroyers and heavy cruisers. Light cruisers of all types were gradually becoming obsolete, and therefore were partially withdrawn to the reserve.

By that time, destroyers with "long spears" and 610-mm torpedoes began to play the role of the main strike force. The tactics of the entire fleet were even changed for these ships and torpedoes. The ideal night battle, which was practiced by the Japanese, looked like this in their view: stealth ships approached the enemy and fired a jamb of torpedoes from a short distance of 30-50 cables. Proceeding from the fact that at least some amount will fall.

Then the ships would approach the damaged enemy and simply finish him off, either with artillery or by reloading torpedo tubes.

By the way, the Japanese fully demonstrated something like this in the battle at Savo Island and in the battle in the Java Sea, which cost the allies a large number of lost ships.

To implement this concept, ships were required that would be armed with a large number of torpedo tubes.

And someone in the naval ministry came up with the idea of ​​converting a number of outdated light cruisers into torpedo ships. It was decided to remove the 140-mm guns, to protect against aircraft and minor troubles, to install universal 127-mm guns, two twin mounts on the bow and stern.

And the entire space between the forecastle and the aft superstructure was occupied by eleven four-tube 610-mm torpedo tubes. Five vehicles on each side and one in the center plane. That is, the Kitakami could fire 24 torpedoes on board in the maximum salvo, and 20 torpedoes on the other side.

The project was creepy. Considering that three cruisers, Kitakami, Ooi and Kiso wanted to remake, it would have turned out to be a very promising division capable of sowing the sea around it with 132 610-mm torpedoes in a short time.


Here it would be possible and not to bother recharging. Any enemy would have had no time for anything after such a volley.

However, the project “didn’t play”.

To begin with, it turned out that the country has an open shortage of both torpedo tubes and 127-mm guns, and the shortage is so serious that there can be no talk at all about re-equipping three ships. Two - still back and forth, but three - in no way. And the shipyards are fully loaded.

But nevertheless, all the same, opportunities were found.

The second alteration. 1941 year

Two ships, Kitakami and Ooi, began to be converted into "torpedo cruisers."

True, they could not find free 127-mm guns, they left four 140-mm guns in the bow. Torpedo tubes also had to be installed not 11, as originally planned, but "only" 10.

But in order to accommodate such a breakthrough of torpedo tubes and torpedoes for them, the deck had to be expanded by 3,3 meters. On both sides, something like sponsons were arranged, which stretched 75 meters from the edge of the forecastle to the stern. Sponsons hung a little over the water. They housed torpedo tubes, the support bollards of which rested on the sides. A rail torpedo feed system for reloading was installed between the vehicles and superstructures. The cruiser had the ability to quickly reload torpedo tubes at sea.


The stern superstructure was considerably expanded and a warehouse for spare torpedoes was equipped there.

To control the fire, a new Type 92 artillery fire control system was installed with a six-meter rangefinder of a new design, and the old Type 91 system and a four-meter rangefinder were given for firing torpedoes.

However, the expansion of the deck and the installation of 10 torpedo tubes greatly affected the weight distribution of the ship, significantly increasing the overhead weight. I had to lighten the ship to the maximum on deck. The crane for the seaplane and the catapult were removed, observation posts were removed from the masts. However, the standard displacement still increased to 5 tons.

And in this form "Kitakami" and "Ooi" went to fight. Both ships became part of the 9th cruiser division of the First Fleet, "Kitakami" became the flagship of Rear Admiral Fukudai.

True, the fighting did not go well. From December 1941 to May 1942, the cruisers took part in escorting two convoys to the Pescador Islands.


On May 29, 1942, both cruisers in the Main Force of Admiral Yamamoto participated in the Battle of Midway. True, instead of torpedo attacks, the cruisers were engaged in anti-submarine protection of the battleship column.

And halfway to Midway, Kitakami and Ooi went to the Aleutian Islands in general, participating in an operation to divert American forces from Midway. In general, the islands of Kiska and Attu were captured, but this did not affect the Battle of Midway. The Americans, conducting their operation, ignored the capture of the Aleuts and defeated the Japanese forces at Midway, while the Aleutian detachment was engaged in blatant idleness near the Aleutian Islands.

It so happened that the torpedo cruisers did not fire a single torpedo launch towards the enemy. And while "Kitakami" cut near the Aleutian Islands, the General Staff recognized the idea of ​​torpedo cruisers as unsuccessful.

It is not entirely clear why Yamamoto sentenced the torpedo cruisers without giving them a single chance of victory. But the fact is that it was Yamamoto himself who recommended in his report to the imperial headquarters something to do with these ships.

And both torpedo cruisers went to the arsenal in Yokosuka ...


The third alteration. June 1942

The main headquarters of the fleet decided to make amphibious ships out of torpedo cruisers. In June 1942, the cruisers lost some of their weapons. Two bow 140-mm guns were left, two were removed. Of the 10 torpedo tubes, 4 were removed, which were in the stern. But the remaining 24 torpedo tubes were also a significant force. And the anti-aircraft armament was strengthened by adding three built-in 25-mm anti-aircraft guns. The number of 25-mm barrels reached thirteen, but this was still frankly not enough for a successful defense against aircraft.

Instead of four aft torpedo tubes, places were equipped for two Daihatsu landing boats, and in the former torpedo warehouse, rooms for paratroopers were equipped. Now "Kitakami" could take on board up to 500 people with weapons and up to 250 tons of various cargo.

The alteration was completed in November 1942, and then the ships were ready to start working in a new guise. In general, all this was quite a promising business, since the Japanese already had experience converting Minekadze-class destroyers into amphibious transports. But the destroyers could not transfer heavy equipment, but the former cruiser with an extended deck was perfect for this.


The only thing that hindered the Japanese was the American aviation, which gradually began to seize air superiority and complicate the delivery of goods to the Japanese.

From October 1942 to March 1943, Kitakami and Ooi were engaged in the transport of troops from the Philippines to the islands of Vewak or Rabaul, less often - Shortland. Then the cruisers worked in the former Dutch territories on the islands of the Indian Ocean.

On one such voyage, on January 27, 1944, the Kitakami was attacked by an American submarine, Templar, 110 miles from Penang. The Americans fired six torpedoes at the Kitakami and hit with two. Both torpedoes fired at the engine room in the stern. The ship received 900 tons of water, 12 crew members were killed, but the crew defended the ship and brought it to Port Swattenham. After some repairs, the Kitakami went to Singapore for repairs, then to Manila, and the ship was being restored in Japan.

But "Ooi", who was left alone, was not lucky. The ship transported troops to Manila and Sorong from Singapore. On the way to Manila on July 19, 1944, he was attacked by the American submarine "Flesher", which fired 4 torpedoes at the ship.

Two torpedoes also hit the Ooi, like the Kitakami, but the result was somewhat different. The flared fuel started a very strong fire and the ship lost its speed. Two hours later, the Americans treated the Ooi with two more torpedoes, and that was the end of the Ooi's combat service. Two hours later, the ship sank completely and irrevocably.

The fourth alteration. January 1945

Since Kitakami is here in Japan, why not remake it again? So, probably, thought in the main headquarters of the imperial fleet. And converted into a carrier of human torpedoes "Kaiten".

All torpedo tubes were removed. The mounts for landing craft were also removed. Instead, special rails were installed in the stern of the Kitakami, along which the Kaiten man-torpedoes were to be dropped into the water.



With these simple devices, eight Kaiten torpedoes could be launched in 8 minutes. A 30-ton crane was installed on the second mast for lifting torpedoes on board.

The 140 mm guns were nevertheless replaced with two 127 mm twin universal mounts. One was installed in the bow, the second - on the stern superstructure.

On the bow superstructure and on the sides of the surviving sponsons, 56 barrels of anti-aircraft guns were installed - twelve triple, two paired and eighteen single.


Plus, Kitakami received two Type 13 anti-aircraft fire control radars, as well as a Type 22 model 4S surface detection and fire control radar. So Kitakami also became an air defense ship.

There was also a not very pleasant moment: American torpedoes smashed the aft engine room and during the repair the damaged mechanisms had to be dismantled. As a result, power dropped to 35 hp and speed to 000 knots.

"Kitakami" entered service after the alteration on January 21, 1945, became part of the special sabotage unit "Kaiten", but the cruiser did not have to use its weapons, although training in its use was actively carried out.


Twice, on March 19 and July 24, Kitakami was damaged by American air raids, but each time they were fairly light.

Kitakami was the only one of the 5-ton cruisers to survive until the end of the war, and surrendered to the Americans. In August 500, she was disarmed and until October was used as a repatriation ship, taking out Japanese settlers from Indochina. In October 1945, the ship was sent to Nagasaki for disassembly, which was completed in April 1946.

An interesting fate. A torpedo cruiser that fired no torpedoes. The carrier of torpedoes with kamikaze, who did not drop a single Kaiten. Very strange, but overall not bad.

You can express this idea: if the Japanese understood well what problems need to be solved in the first place, I think, such freaks as an undercruiser, under-transport, under-flight, and so on would hardly be born.


The problem for the Japanese was that they spent too many resources on the implementation of "raw" objects. And Kitakami is the best confirmation of this.
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  1. Xlor
    Xlor 21 March 2021 05: 02
    -13%
    With the advent of aviation and submarines, all these battleships with cruisers simply turned into rusty cans, in which a colossal amount of money was invested in the pre-war period and which, during the two world wars, simply stood in their bases ...
    1. shkiper83
      shkiper83 21 March 2021 07: 51
      +15
      Read more about the use of NDT during WWII, so as not to write nonsense.
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 21 March 2021 11: 49
      +3
      Quote: Xlor
      With the advent of aviation and submarines, all these battleships with cruisers simply turned into rusty cans, in which a colossal amount of money was invested in the pre-war period and which, during the two world wars, simply stood in their bases ...

      You would be careful not to write such nonsense on VO.
      The example of Tirpitz, who spent two years in the fjord, is not indicative.
      As for the WWII cruisers, there were, emnip, about 350, about 140 of them died.
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 21 March 2021 19: 38
        -7
        And what did these cruisers do in WWII?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 22 March 2021 19: 22
          +1
          Quote: Xlor
          And what did these cruisers do in WWII?

          What they were built for: covering the main forces of the fleet, fighting surface raiders, escorting convoys and amphibious formations, fighting light (and difficult smile - on "Friday the 13th" or in Sirte Bay) by enemy forces.
          1. Xlor
            Xlor 23 March 2021 11: 47
            0
            What they were built for never happened.
            The admirals, as always, were ready for the last war ...
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 23 March 2021 12: 11
              0
              Quote: Xlor
              What they were built for never happened.

              Everything happened. In the Mediterranean, the British RCs even managed to work in the classic role of scouts with the LK squadron.
              1. Xlor
                Xlor 23 March 2021 14: 03
                0
                I'll go in from the other side.
                Why do we need LK?
                And how did they show themselves during WWII?
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 23 March 2021 18: 11
                  0
                  Quote: Xlor
                  I'll go in from the other side.
                  Why do we need LK?

                  To fight their own kind. smile
                  Quote: Xlor
                  And how did they show themselves during WWII?

                  In the main role - quite good. Bismarck drowned Hood. "King" and "Rodney" - "Bismarck", and in full accordance with British pre-war tactics - the aircraft carrier knocks down the enemy's move, and then slowly descend from the mountain LK. With the "Tirpitz", the English "big pots" were so unlucky - in the Sportpalast operation all the Albacores missed, and in the Rösselsprung operation the German unit turned back altogether, without waiting for the arrival of the carrier aircraft. But “Scharnhorst” got “Duke”.
                  In Mediterranean, ABC was even able to arrange a linear battle - at Punto Stilo. And the battle at Matapan took place only because ABC was trying to catch up with the outgoing LC "Vittorio Veneto".
                  On the other side of the earth, LCs weren't idle in their bases either. "Hiei" was severely damaged in a battle with Callaghan's cruisers, which did not allow it to go beyond the radius of American aircraft after dark. Two days later, "Kirishima" in the same area met with "Washington" and "Sodak" - and did not survive this meeting (16 "shells from 30 cables - from that even" Yamato "would get sick).
                  Well, in the end, the American "standard LCs" built a line of as many as 6 LCs - "VV", "Maryland", "Mississippi", "Tennessee", "California" and "Pennsylvania". But only "Yamashiro" reached her, and "Fuso" got into a dish prepared by the Americans according to the Japanese recipe - "torpedo soup". smile
                  And if Halsey interacted normally with Kincaid, then we could also discuss the fight “Yamato” with “Iowa”. smile
                  1. Xlor
                    Xlor 23 March 2021 19: 06
                    -1
                    All these artillery duels did not affect the course of the war in any way - just self-indulgence ...
                    From the very first days of WWII, the admirals realized that it was necessary to build not obsolete WWII artillery cruisers with battleships, but aircraft carriers, destroyers and submarines. It was they who determined the course of the war at sea. In both the Atlantic and the Pacific ...
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 23 March 2021 19: 54
                      0
                      Quote: Xlor
                      All these artillery duels did not affect the course of the war in any way - just self-indulgence ...

                      The battles of November 13-15, 1942 decided the fate of the operation on Guadalcanal. If the Japanese with their 14 "cover the" Cactus ", then their ground forces receive heavy weapons and ammunition in full. And then the defense of the Yankees may not withstand.
    3. NF68
      NF68 21 March 2021 15: 22
      0
      Quote: Xlor
      With the advent of aviation and submarines, all these battleships with cruisers simply turned into rusty cans, in which a colossal amount of money was invested in the pre-war period and which, during the two world wars, simply stood in their bases ...


      This only applies to battleships. And they continue to build cruisers to this day. I wonder why? Or those who continue to build cruisers do not know that after the advent of aviation, cruisers turned into rusty cans?
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 22 March 2021 19: 18
      0
      Quote: Xlor
      With the advent of aviation and submarines, all these battleships with cruisers simply turned into rusty cans, in which a colossal amount of money was invested in the pre-war period and which, during the two world wars, simply stood in their bases ...

      "Washington", "Norka", "Sodak" and practically all British LCs, including the old "R", look at your statement with bewilderment. However, the old Yankees also did not disappoint, having arranged the last linear battle. smile
  2. Revolver
    Revolver 21 March 2021 05: 32
    +5
    Well, the Japanese are finally. With an almost complete lack of resources, the United States was able to resist for almost 5 years, and not only the United States, but almost everyone who was related to the Pacific Theater, and this is Britain (then Great, not Small), and Australia, and the colonial forces all kinds of Holland, and on land also the Chinese. We contrived to win a few not sickly victories. Moreover, from a technical point of view, they made a lot of real masterpieces, again with a wild lack of resources and a not very developed industry, so they fought with more than one Banzai. This particular subcruiser may not be the most successful example of Japanese technology, but it was much more successful. They did not give up until they were literally bombed into the dust, and after that, in a very few years, they became one of the most developed and advanced economies in the world, moreover, if natural resources did become, then it was less, and not more than before the war. In general, respect and respect.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 21 March 2021 06: 07
      +9
      Quote: Nagan
      With an almost complete lack of resources, the United States was able to resist for almost 5 years, and not only the United States, but practically everyone who was related to the Pacific Theater,

      Well, before the attack on the United States, Japan was worried about resources. Well, 1942, the map of the Japanese Empire and subordinate territories looked like this
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 22 March 2021 19: 35
      0
      Quote: Nagan
      With an almost complete lack of resources

      They were fine with resources - they started the war for them. Problems arose only from the end of 1943 - with the delivery of resources.
      Quote: Nagan
      were able to resist the United States for almost 5 years

      Less than four years - from December 1941 to September 1945
      Quote: Nagan
      but to almost everyone who was related to the Pacific Theater, and this is Britain (then Great, not Small), and Australia

      They are practically the same thing. In addition, the Britons had their main problems around the Metropolis, in Africa, the Atlantic and Mediterranean. Therefore, the maximum that limes could be deployed until 1944 on land in Southeast Asia is 5-6 trained divisions. And RN allocated such forces for the Indian Ocean that their only tactic when the IJN forces appeared on the theater of operations was to perform the 101st karate technique - running and dispersing to the most distant bases in the hope that they would not be found. smile
      Honestly, it would be better if these "Queens" and "R" ABC gave their Lordships - he would have found a better use for them.
      The Australians had a similar problem: part of the forces in Africa, part of it protects Australia itself ... and even the theater of operations they got such that the main enemy was the terrain, flora and fauna, and not people in an alien form. In those parts, even the Japanese division, when moving from the place of concentration to the enemy's positions, grinded down to a regiment or battalion.
      Quote: Nagan
      and the colonial forces of any Holland

      Which ended in 1942.
  3. alekc75
    alekc75 21 March 2021 05: 49
    -2
    novel you need to shorten the language for "Peter the Great" -you are a specialist ???
  4. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 21 March 2021 07: 14
    +5
    Well, roughly, like our "Admiral Kuznetsov", neither an aircraft carrier nor a cruiser
    And neither an expert nor an analyst - just like the author of the article.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 21 March 2021 07: 35
      +7
      And not an article, and not a feuilleton.
    2. PSih2097
      PSih2097 21 March 2021 08: 38
      +4
      in fact, ours decided to make a universal ship (more or less a sane project would be "Ulyanovsk") - and aviation and anti-ship missiles (such as a reaper and a priest), as a result, it lost (in terms of capabilities) AB (in air wing) and RRC ( by the number of anti-ship missiles).
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 21 March 2021 08: 45
        -4
        Quote: PSih2097
        in the end, he lost (in terms of capabilities) to AB (in air wing)

        The air group fully corresponded to the Kuznetsov's tonnage, the only drawback was the springboard takeoff.

        Quote: PSih2097
        RRC (by the number of RCC).
        but the capabilities of the air defense are tightly done with those of the "Nimitz", for example.
        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 21 March 2021 08: 54
          +7
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          but the capabilities of the air defense are tightly done with those of the "Nimitz", for example.

          and why does he need air defense, when the same Nimitz always has a security order, where there is air defense / missile defense + AWACS aircraft and fighters?
          We and the states have different tactics for using AB.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 21 March 2021 10: 19
            -5
            Quote: PSih2097
            and why does he need air defense, when the same Nimitz always has a security order, where there is air defense / missile defense + AWACS aircraft and fighters?
            Nimitsu may not need anything, but the cruiser is very good at it, so "Kuznetsov" is not bad as an AB, and as a cruiser is not bad either.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 21 March 2021 11: 31
              +3
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              so that "Kuznetsov" is not bad both as an AV and not bad as a cruiser.

              Please, in more detail about Kuzi's "not bad" cruising functionality.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 21 March 2021 12: 03
                -2
                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Please, in more detail about Kuzi's "not bad" cruising functionality.
                Well, if you are not able to use the search, then the "Kuznetsov" has 12 anti-ship missiles launchers, which is only 4 less than the "Moscow" (excluding the strike capabilities of aviation), the direct possibility of searching and destroying submarines, without remembering the PLO helicopters and unimaginable for any air defense cruiser (after all, "Kuzya" is an aircraft-carrying cruiser).
      2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 21 March 2021 11: 29
        +4
        Quote: PSih2097
        in fact, ours decided to make a universal ship

        It seems, Kuzya ... that is

        initially it was generally conceived as an air defense ship, and not an attack AB.
  5. Niko
    Niko 21 March 2021 10: 59
    +3
    The ship is of course controversial. However, having imagined a little and imagining that Tanaka was holding his flag not on Dzintsu but on this "miracle", now we would talk about the talent of Japanese engineers who guessed the direction of modernization
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 21 March 2021 12: 41
      +1
      It is by no means a fact that in the Slot Strait, this cruiser would have had a chance of success.
      1. Niko
        Niko 21 March 2021 16: 16
        0
        Of course not a fact. But the chances compared to the Dzintsu, clearly increased. Moreover, the chances are not just "half-success" but the chances of becoming a legendary ship in a sense. It is difficult to come up with a better place and time for this ship, and a better commander
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 21 March 2021 18: 39
          0
          I do not argue that having so many torpedoes in an onboard salvo, his chances are much more preferable, but by no means 100%. They were planned for a torpedo salvo at a column of battleships during a general engagement. Why the Japanese admirals took the Dzintsu with them during their exits to Guadalcanal is not clear at all.
  6. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 21 March 2021 12: 39
    +2
    The article is interesting, although not without errors. Firstly, Vevak and Rabaul are small towns in New Guinea and Fr. New Britain, respectively. Secondly, the comparison of the Japanese semi - battleships - semi - aircraft carriers with the Kuznetsov is incorrect. They were built as battleships, and then "not from a good life" they decided to make them aircraft carriers. TAVKR "Adm. Kuznetsov" was originally designed and built this way.
    1. Constanty
      Constanty 21 March 2021 13: 29
      -2
      I don't know about Russian studies, but in Polish (and some English) studies, "Adm. Kuznetsov" was not built as a "clean" aircraft carrier a TAVKR not only because of the accepted philosophy, but rather because of the need to cross the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles. The Montreux Treaty - The Montreux Convention of July 20, 1936, signed by the USSR, the provisions of which are still in force, prohibits the passage of mines through the straits. aircraft carrier - as defined in the contract - surface ships, designed or adapted primarily for the transport and operation of aircraft at sea. Placing an air deck on a ship does not qualify it as an aircraft carrier, unless it has been designed or adapted primarily for the transport and operation of aircraft at sea.

      The USSR took advantage of this on July 18, 1976 when passing through the straits of the Soviet ship "Kiev", which was declared the "main ship" - TAVKR, and not an aircraft carrier. And so, if there are still Soviet ships with an airline.

      The example of "Ise" and "Hyuga" is completely different. After Midway and the loss of 6 aircraft carriers, the Japanese were in desperate need of aircraft carriers.

      Kitakami and Oii as torpedo cruisers were an interesting idea, and I think that in the night battles in the waters around Guadalcanal, they could change the outcome of some
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 21 March 2021 18: 47
        0
        I heard this option, about the passage of the Bosphorus. But what prevented, first to install the launcher, and then remove, upon arrival at the Pacific Fleet or Northern Fleet. I don't know how true this is. In general, both the construction and operation of aircraft carriers are very difficult and expensive. In full, only the USA, England and Japan were able to. Now only the USA. For the Germans, the Zeppelin failed, for the French, the Bearn was also not very successful. Subsequently, the French aircraft carriers are also not particularly, especially the extreme one)))
        about the participation of these cruisers in the "Tokyo Express", an interesting idea, but for some reason she did not visit the Japanese admirals.
  7. Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 21 March 2021 12: 44
    +5
    You can express this idea: if the Japanese understood well what problems need to be solved in the first place, I think, such freaks as an undercruiser, under-transport, under-flight, and so on would hardly be born.

    The author, as usual (from the height of 100 years of afterthought), imagines himself smarter than people who lived at that time and built TE ships ... :)

    ZY Sometimes you want to write: "Alexander Gennadievich, re-login ..." :)
    1. Nestor Vlakhovski
      Nestor Vlakhovski 21 March 2021 15: 26
      0
      And you, as usual, try to justify any stupidity with the words "who knew", completely refusing to learn from other people's mistakes .. Moreover, if you dig deeper into any topic, it often turns out that many "knew", but did not listen to them, promoting their interests.
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 21 March 2021 16: 33
        +1
        Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
        And you, as usual, try to justify any stupidity with the words "who knew", completely refusing to learn from other people's mistakes ..

        I’m not trying anything ... I’m just not drawing conclusions based on afterthought. :)

        Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
        Moreover, if you dig deeper into any topic, it often turns out that many "knew", but did not listen to them, promoting their interests.

        I would like to know what other country built "torpedo cruisers" and had analogues of "kaitens" and developed carriers for them.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 21 March 2021 19: 27
          0
          I would like to know what other country has built "torpedo cruisers"


          Quite a few countries lol eg :
          - in the UK, - (torpedo cruiser)
          - in Russia torpedo cruisers (mine cruisers),
          - in Italy (incrociatore torpediniere),
          - in Turkey (torpido-kruvazör)
          - in Sweden (Torpedkryssare)
          Of course, this is a joke, because it is mainly about the end of the 19th century.

          "Kitakami" and "Oyi" certainly had no analogues, although it is worth noting that the Japanese attached a large role to the torpedo armament of "conventional" cruisers - for example, the ships "Takao" had as many as 16 torpedo tubes - even before these ships in this respect, other countries were long away.

          If we talk about the "Caitense", then, of course, there were no analogues - it was probably the closest to Italy - the destroyers "Francesco Crispi" and "Quintino Sella" were rebuilt as carriers of explosive motor boats MTM (Motoscafi da Turismo Modificati)
        2. Nestor Vlakhovski
          Nestor Vlakhovski 21 March 2021 19: 35
          0
          I'm not trying anything ...
          And yet, every time you try to push your "idea" in any topic in the slightest degree related to history :)
          I just do not draw conclusions based on the aftermath. :)
          Without such conclusions, it is simply impossible to learn at least some lesson from the events that have taken place.
          what other country built "torpedo cruisers" and had analogues of "kaitens" and developed carriers for them.
          None. No other had similar tasks, unless the Germans, who approached the issue more pragmatically, betting on the submarine.
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 21 March 2021 20: 30
            0
            Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
            And yet, every time you try to push your "idea" in any topic in the slightest degree related to history :)

            Capaciously ... I would also like to know this "my idea". :)

            Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
            Without such conclusions, it is simply impossible to learn at least some lesson from the events that have taken place.

            And what lessons should be learned in this case? :)

            Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
            None. No other had similar tasks, unless the Germans, who approached the issue more pragmatically, betting on the submarine.

            Powerful ... :)
            Are you aware that the Germans had a completely different task?
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 21 March 2021 18: 49
      0
      Everyone imagines himself to be a strategist - seeing the battle from the side))) but considering what advantage the allies had in everything, the samurai have no chances. With or without these cruisers.
  8. Engineer
    Engineer 21 March 2021 15: 18
    +1
    The Kitakami was attacked by the American submarine Templeair 110 miles from Penang. The Americans fired six torpedoes at the Kitakami and hit with two. Both torpedoes fired at the engine room in the stern. The ship received 900 tons of water, 12 crew members were killed, but the crew defended the ship

    Not American, but English. But it is not important.
    It is important that the malachol cruiser carries two torpedoes in the side. PTZ, as far as I know, he did not have. How did the Japs do it all?
    Apparently, once again, a competent division into compartments has been resolved.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 21 March 2021 16: 40
      +2
      Quote: Engineer
      It is important that the malachol cruiser carries two torpedoes in the side. PTZ, as far as I know, he did not have. How did the Japs do it all?

      From what Lacroix writes, both torpedoes hit the stern.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 21 March 2021 18: 01
        0
        It's cool anyway. Moreover, as I understand it, the stern was not torn off
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 21 March 2021 18: 51
      0
      Anything has happened + excellent skills of the BZHZS crew
  9. evgen1221
    evgen1221 21 March 2021 17: 01
    0
    Poor boat, from such a life, you don't want, you can make a sepuku. They mocked him as they wanted.
  10. Grossvater
    Grossvater 21 March 2021 17: 27
    0
    The meaning of these ships was in the utilization of initially not the most successful steamers. So it was necessary to poke them into the thick of it!
    Who will be drowned, so Glory to God. No, it's not a pity.
    It seems that in 42, while the Americans were wiping their brains and learning to stare at their radars, torpedo cruisers could bring the Japanese a lot of benefits.
    As for the role of the large NKs in that war, battleships were a decisive force in European waters.
  11. Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 21 March 2021 17: 59
    0
    Because Japan was on the edge of resources.
    And as my comrades teach me, their approach to business was: better less, but better. To a certain extent, this resembles the current situation in the Russian Federation.
    Nonetheless. Life has shown that sometimes quantity begins to overwhelm quality.
    Here is such a squiggle ...
  12. Xlor
    Xlor 21 March 2021 19: 36
    0
    Cruisers in the Second MV and modern cruisers are completely different things. From the cruisers that existed during WWII, modern cruisers inherited only the name "cruiser". This is the only thing that brings them together
  13. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 21 March 2021 19: 43
    +3
    Dogo could not understand what this article reminds me of, but now he understood. The article is almost "seamless" from the WARSPOT.RU website, author Vladislav Goncharov)))
  14. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 22 March 2021 19: 04
    0
    And halfway to Midway, Kitakami and Ooi went to the Aleutian Islands in general, participating in an operation to divert American forces from Midway.

    I wonder how long this cranberry about "distraction from Midway" will still live? smile
    The mission of Operation MI was to lure the most efficient remnants of the US Pacific Fleet into attack by the main forces of the IJN. Why do the Japanese to distract American forces from Midway?

    This is how IJN General Staff defined the tasks of Operation AL:
    The objective of this operation is to capture or destroy strategic points in the western part of the Aleutian Islands in order to control the movements of the enemy fleet and aviation in this area.

    Simply put, this was another operation to expand the Perimeter, providing cover for the Metropolis from an attack from the north and control of the northeastern part of TO.
    Moreover, both operations - AL and MI - were supposed to begin at the same time. But due to problems with Nagumo's First Mobile Connection, the date of the strike on Midway was postponed for a day.
    More:
    https://midnike.livejournal.com/4848.html

    EMNIP. on Tsushima they wrote that the AL operation was the result of bargaining between Yamamoto and the General Staff of the IJN - the General Staff supported the Midway operation only on condition of the Aleutian one.
  15. Xlor
    Xlor 23 March 2021 11: 45
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: Xlor
    With the advent of aviation and submarines, all these battleships with cruisers simply turned into rusty cans, in which a colossal amount of money was invested in the pre-war period and which, during the two world wars, simply stood in their bases ...

    "Washington", "Norka", "Sodak" and practically all British LCs, including the old "R", look at your statement with bewilderment. However, the old Yankees also did not disappoint, having arranged the last linear battle. smile

    They only "watch" ... This is how the whole WWII and looked from their bases ...
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 23 March 2021 19: 04
      0
      Quote: Xlor
      They only "watch" ... This is how the whole WWII and looked from their bases ...

      As far as I understand, the Kirishima LK self-destructed. The planes that attacked the Big E were self-sawing. A torpedo hole 10x5 meters "Norka" itself dug out. smile
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 23 March 2021 19: 16
        0
        All these torpedo holes and artillery firefights between heavy ships are an ordinary mouse fuss when the owner is not in the house.
        I have already said that the main tasks at sea were solved by aviation and submarines ...
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 23 March 2021 19: 58
          0
          Quote: Xlor
          All these torpedo holes and artillery firefights between heavy ships are an ordinary mouse fuss when the owner is not in the house.
          I have already said that the main tasks at sea were solved by aviation and submarines ...

          Well, the battles at Guadalcanal just decided whether the Yankees would have aviation or not. A pair of "Congo" passes to the "Cactus" at a range of fire - and the aircraft no longer decides anything. smile
          1. Xlor
            Xlor 24 March 2021 03: 09
            0
            In 1942, the American command decided to discontinue the design of heavy artillery ships, and those that had already been laid down were converted into aircraft carriers.
            PS Probably, the battles at Guadalcananal showed the admirals a "need" for artillery ships?
            By the way, the German command also revised the so-called. "Plan Z", because even the first months of the war showed all the uselessness of heavy ships.
            I'll tell you more - they were not needed already in PMV
            Just do not remember the Jutlandic bliss ...)))
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 24 March 2021 11: 11
              0
              Quote: Xlor
              In 1942, the American command decided to discontinue the design of heavy artillery ships, and those that had already been laid down were converted into aircraft carriers.

              Don't you confuse the Americans with the Japanese?
              The Montan construction was canceled only in July 1943.
              As for the Iowa, four of them were completed as an LC - even the Missouri, launched in 1944.
              The last couple of Iowas really proposed rebuild into aircraft carriers, but felt that building new ones from scratch would be faster and cheaper. By the way, after that the "Kentucky" was proposed to be rebuilt into an air defense ship and a URO battleship. But in the end they were dismantled together with the Illinois in 1958.
              Quote: Xlor
              PS Probably, the battles at Guadalcananal showed the admirals a "need" for artillery ships?

              Not only - the performance of the SODAK commander played in favor of the LC, who painted in paints how his LC shot down as many as 32 Japanese aircraft in one battle (26 counted, in fact - 7-8). smile
              So 4 Iowas were saved.

              As for the smaller artillery ships - cruisers - they were built both during the war and after the war. For there was no alternative to them - in the same AV escort.