"Grayvoron" and others. Construction of small rocket ships of project 21631

"Grayvoron" on the eve of tests

The program of building small rocket ships for several fleets is successfully continuing. On January 30, a solemn ceremony of raising the flag was held in Sevastopol on the new ship "Graivoron", built according to project 21631 "Buyan-M". This is already the ninth ship of this type in the Russian Navy, and new ones will soon follow.

Construction process

On December 25, 2013, the Ministry of Defense and the Zelenodolsk plant named after A.M. Gorky signed another contract for the construction of small missile ships (MRK) pr. 21631. It provided for the construction and delivery of four ships, from the sixth to the ninth in the series. New RTOs were planned to be transferred to the Black Sea fleet.

Preparatory work for the construction began prior to the signing of the contract. The ship-laying ceremonies were held in 2013-15. Since 2016, the ships have been launched. In the summer of 2018, after passing all the necessary tests, the new Vyshny Volochek MRK entered the Navy, and in December the fleet received the Orekhovo-Zuevo. At the very end of 2019, the ship "Ingushetia" began service.

The last hull under the 2013 contract - the future Graivoron - was laid down on April 10, 2015. The construction of the ship was noticeably delayed. For a number of reasons, it was possible to launch it only in April 2020. By this time, the crew was formed. After part of the outfitting work, in August the ship was transferred from Zelenodolsk to Novorossiysk. There MRK received the remaining equipment and was prepared for testing.

Sea trials of "Grayvoron" started on September 19 last year and took several months. During these events, the ship confirmed the design characteristics and was admitted to service. On January 30, the Ministry of Defense adopted a new MRK and transferred it to the Black Sea Fleet, which already has three pennants of this type. All four Buyan-Ms now serve in the 41st missile boat brigade.

With ample opportunities

MRK pr. 21631 are intended to protect the economic zone of the state in the coastal zone, as well as in the internal basins. Unlike other warships, "Buyan-M" is able to navigate rivers, which provides a quick transfer between different fleets.

Navy flag raising ceremony, January 30

The "Buyan-M" ships have a total displacement of 950 tons. The length of the ship is 74 m, width is 11 m. The hull lines correspond to the "river-sea" class. The power plant of the CODAD type is built on the basis of four foreign-made diesel engines with the output of power to two water-jet propulsion devices. A full speed of 25 knots and an economic speed of 12 knots are provided. At the latter, the cruising range reaches 2500 miles.

Despite its small size, the ship, project 21631, carries a developed complex of electronic equipment for observation, weapons control and interaction with other combat units. The combat information and control system "Sigma" was used. It integrates radars MR-352M1 "Positive-M1" and MR-231-2 "Liman". The artillery is controlled by the MR-123-02 "Bagheera" system.

MRK pr. 21631 carries a universal launcher 3S14 with eight cells for missiles "Onyx" and "Caliber". In the future, it is possible to introduce a new complex "Zircon". The ship is equipped with an A-190 "Universal" artillery mount with a 100 mm cannon. For air defense and countering surface threats, there are two 3M47-01 "Gibka" complexes, one AK-630M-2 "Duet" mount, as well as column mounts for machine guns.

Small missile ships of the Buyan-M type, due to the specifics of the hull and the power plant, are capable of operating only at a limited distance from bases and on inland waterways. At the same time, they have quite wide shock capabilities. Due to the use of missiles of different types, it is possible to defeat surface and coastal targets at long ranges. At the same time, the potential of the naval air defense is limited - it is assumed that the MRK in the coastal zone will be protected by land anti-aircraft systems.

Nine units

In July 2014, the Russian Navy received the first two MRCs of pr. 21631 - Grad Sviyazhsk and Uglich. At the end of the same year, the third entered service, and in 2015 two more ships were transferred to the fleet. In 2018-19. the combat strength included three RTOs for the Black Sea Fleet, and the fourth began service a few days ago. In total, by now the Navy has received nine Buyan-M ships.

The first three ships of the project became part of the Caspian Flotilla. They regularly participate in various exercises, and, in addition, were involved in striking targets in Syria. Two ships, "Zeleny Dol" and "Serpukhov" are part of the Baltic Fleet. It is curious that at the end of 2015 they were accepted into the Black Sea Fleet, but after a few months they were transferred to the Baltic. After the recent ceremony, the Black Sea Fleet has the largest grouping "Buyanov-M", of four units.

It is important that the construction of the MRK pr. 21631 does not stop there. Three new ships are already under construction. In April 2017, the tenth building, Grad, was laid. In 2018, the laying of the ground for Naro-Fominsk and Stavropol took place. According to current plans, the Grad will be completed, launched, tested and handed over to the customer this year. It will enter the Baltic Fleet. The next two RTOs will begin service in 2022 and 2023.

According to the results of the fulfillment of all existing plans, the Russian Navy will include 12 Buyan-M small missile ships. They will be distributed among the three fleet formations, possibly equally. At the same time, it is possible to extend the series to re-equip other fleets. It can be assumed that the naval command is right now studying the experience of operating existing ships of this type and deciding the issue of building new ones. In case of a positive decision, a new contract for several buildings may appear in the coming years.

Prospects Series

It is easy to see that the duration of the construction of the MRK pr. 21631 was constantly changing. In addition, there were noticeable intervals between the tabs of new ships. All these negative phenomena were associated with problems in the line of propulsion systems.

The first five ships received German-made MTU 16V4000M90 diesels. In 2014-15. the supply of such items has ceased due to sanctions. Later they managed to find a replacement in the form of Chinese CHD622V20 engines with similar characteristics. Later it was reported that such diesel engines are not without flaws and also need to be replaced.

It is expected that the new ships of project 21631 will be equipped with Russian-made propulsion systems. Kolomensky Zavod will supply 10D49 engines, and Zvezda will manufacture gearboxes. The appearance of our own products to replace imports will allow not only completing the current series, but also starting the construction of the next ships - within a reasonable time frame.

The further development of the Buyanov-M weapons complex is of great interest. Thanks to the versatile 3S14 installations, they can use Onyx and Caliber missiles. It is known that the promising Zircon hypersonic missile is also used with such an installation. It is likely what is weapon will be introduced into the ammunition of already built and planned MRKs, and this will give a serious increase in combat qualities.

Work continues

The recent adoption of the Grayvoron MRC into the fleet clearly demonstrates the success of Project 21631. However, the events of past years have revealed a number of serious problems in shipbuilding that must be dealt with. The main difficulty in the form of the lack of high-performance engines, apparently, has already been resolved, and the results of such a decision will appear in the near future.

Despite all the difficulties, since 2014, the Russian Navy has already received nine Buyan-M small missile ships, and the tenth is expected to be delivered this year. With their help, the surface forces of two fleets and one flotilla have been updated. Construction continues and in the future will make it possible to strengthen these associations, as well as start delivering new RTOs of this type to other fleets.

Comments

[tone]

After the medium-age missiles were withdrawn from the treaty, there was no point at all in these ships. They cannot attack enemy ships. Because they do not have target designation equipment. It's better to build Caliber ground launchers on a car chassis cheaper and angrier ...

[Odysseus]

Quote: tone

After the medium-age missiles were withdrawn from the treaty, there was no point at all in these ships.

In general, it is true. The point was to bypass the missile restrictions. No limit, no sense. Especially in Buyan, Karakurt can still walk a little further into the sea. Buyans can, however, be used in the Caspian as a floating battery.

[Doccor18]

The main ship of the Caspian flotilla. All of them must be collected there. And it's easier to service.
They are not particularly needed anywhere else.

[CTABEP]

For the Caspian flotilla, they have already been configured with a margin. There is no sense in the continuation of the series.

[Doccor18]

Quote: CTABEP

Sense ... in the continuation of the series no.

That's it.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: tone

It's better to build Caliber ground launchers on a car chassis cheaper and angrier ...

... who have targeting equipment?

[Odysseus]

Quote: pmkemcity

... who have targeting equipment?

In both cases, they shoot at stationary targets, and not moving in space. But if there are no restrictions on launchers on the ground, it makes no sense to build a floating battery, which is much more expensive.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Odyssey

But if there are no restrictions on launchers on the ground, it makes no sense to build a floating battery, which is much more expensive.

Both statements are highly dubious. Now let's take and return to the INF Treaty, as to START-3, a voluntarist decision, then what? I think that the operation of a ship is much cheaper than that of a ground-based complex, perhaps a stationary one, such as the Romanian one, and then see more.

[Odysseus]

Quote: pmkemcity

Now let's take and return to the INF Treaty, as to START-3, a voluntarist decision, then what?

Well, this is hypothetically, you can also say, what if we agree on the reduction of offshore installations, what then? We are talking about realities, if there is no agreement, it makes sense to build ground-based launchers, not ships. The bottom line is that the ships were needed only while the agreement was. But at the same time, those ships that were already laid down need to be finished.

Quote: pmkemcity

I think that the operation of the ship is much cheaper than that of the ground complex,

Eeeee, how much does it cost to build a ship. And how long it takes. Plus fuel for it, crew allowance, repairs are much more expensive, mobility is much less, the cost of other ship weapons, etc.
For the Caspian, there is a sense in them, you can swim to where on the ground you can not reach and, accordingly, increase the zone of destruction of stationary objects.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Odyssey

you can also say, what if we agree on the reduction of offshore installations, what then?

Never when this will not happen!

Quote: Odyssey

Eeeee, how much does it cost to build a ship. And how long it takes. Plus fuel for it, crew allowance, repairs are much more expensive, mobility is much less, the cost of other ship weapons, etc.

The operation is XNUMX% cheaper. Mobility??? Only in a long time perspective ... Every minute the ship is ready and the probability of getting out of the attack is much higher. Our ships have not been repaired for a long time, abandoned, and then written off. The "other weapon" of the ship makes it possible to solve "other tasks" that are inaccessible at this stage to ground complexes.

[Kalmar]

Quote: pmkemcity

Never when this will not happen!

If short-range missiles were once banned, what will prevent the ban on ships of small, shall we say, missile capacity? )) You can agree in different ways.

Quote: pmkemcity

Mobility??? Only in a long time perspective ... The ship is much more prepared and the probability of getting out of the attack

With mobility, everything is ambiguous. A ground-based launcher can be loaded onto a railway platform and relatively quickly overtake a lot.

Then, the ground launcher is covered by air defense forces; "Buyan" will be under their protection only at the very coast. And even in this case, it can be threatened by enemy submarines (and with PLO in our fleet now everything is sour).

Ground installations are easier to disperse: launchers stand separately at a distance from each other, separate command post, separate radar, etc. Covering all the components at once will not be easy for the enemy. In the case of Buyan, all this is heated at once and in bulk.

Quote: pmkemcity

The "other weapon" of the ship makes it possible to solve "other tasks" that are inaccessible at this stage to ground complexes.

In theory, yes, but with a number of reservations due to the very weak combat stability of the Buyanov.

[pmkemcity]

To summarize: you need this and that, you can without bread.

[Kalmar]

Quote: pmkemcity

To summarize: you need this and that, you can without bread.

I would say: coastal - it is necessary, ships - it is necessary. Specifically, "Buyans" - generally speaking, it is not necessary, but since there is - it is also necessary to attach somewhere (do not throw it away).

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Kalmar

not necessary, but since there is

In a good economy, the machine gun will come in handy!

[Volder]

Quote: Kalmar

it can be threatened by enemy submarines (and everything is sour with PLO in our fleet now).

RTOs will be accompanied and covered by our diesel-electric submarines along the path of deployment. That is, enemy submarines, before colliding with the Buyans, must first pass through the Varshavyanok.

In the case of Buyan, all this is heated at once and in bulk.

There are no aircraft carriers in the Black, Baltic and Caspian Seas. Enemy aircraft taking off from the shore will have no time for Buyans. It will be met by our fighters - Su-30SM, Su-35. Let me remind you that in terms of the number of combat aircraft, Russia ranks second in the world after the United States.

[Kalmar]

Quote: Volder

RTOs will be accompanied and covered by our diesel-electric submarines along the path of deployment.

In the Baltic, our diesel-electric submarines are one piece, ancient 877. Passing through the Varshavyanka is a separate story: problems with torpedo armament and anti-torpedo protection have been discussed more than once.

Quote: Volder

There are no aircraft carriers in the Black, Baltic and Caspian seas

What do the aircraft carriers have to do with it? To send "Buyans" to them is a priori not the smartest way to get rid of your ships. It is, rather, about a sudden strike on some ground targets that cannot be reached "from the ground".

Quote: Volder

Enemy aircraft taking off from the shore will have no time for Buyans. It will be met by our fighters - Su-30SM, Su-35.

Provided that the case takes place somewhere very close to our airfields. That again greatly limits the "Buyans" in maneuver. Well, such a suddenness is obtained, if over them there are constantly "drying" swarming.

[Volder]

Quote: Kalmar

In the Baltic, our diesel-electric submarines are one piece, ancient 877.

Ancient compared to what? In terms of combat capabilities, it is not inferior to Western diesel-electric submarines. In the coming years, the Baltic Fleet will be replenished with new Ladas, and possibly Varshavyanks.

problems with torpedo armament and anti-torpedo protection have been discussed more than once.

Recently, there was news in the media that the Russians had created a new electric torpedo. Given the high stealth and good acoustics of the Black Hole, it can get very close to enemy submarines to attack them. And not only Russian submarines have no counter-torpedoes, but also all other submarines from other countries.

It is, rather, about a sudden strike on some ground targets that cannot be reached "from the ground".

An attack on ports, airfields, military bases - this is one of them.

Provided that the case takes place somewhere very close to our airfields. That again severely limits the "Buyans" in maneuver.

What does close mean? Do you remind you of the combat radius of the flight of Russian tactical aircraft? Probably, it is worth recalling the size of the inland seas, so that it becomes quite obvious.

Well, such a suddenness is obtained, if over them there are constantly "drying" swarming.

Directly above them? Are you seriously? Tracking, via satellites or drones, where ships are located is not a problem. Therefore, there will be no surprise not only for Russia, but also for its opponents.

[Kalmar]

Quote: Volder

Recently, there was news in the media that the Russians have created a new electric torpedo

Traditionally, we have a very large gap between "create" and "arm the fleet". For example, I read about UGST 20 years ago as about a finished product, but our main torpedo is still the antique USET-80.

Quote: Volder

Given the high stealth and good acoustics of the Black Hole, it can get very close to enemy submarines to attack them.

High stealth is achieved only when moving at a speed of several knots. Suitable for an ambush, but not for escorting RTOs.

Quote: Volder

Do you remember the combat radius of the flight of Russian tactical aircraft?

And here it is not only a matter of radius. The plane must simply manage to intercept the attacking enemy aircraft before it reaches the missile launch line. Either he should already be above the protected ships, but the duration of such patrolling will not be long, plus it is necessary to somehow get back to the airfield. As a result, the distance at which our aircraft can effectively cover ships turns out to be much less than their combat radius.

Quote: Volder

Tracking, via satellites or drones, where ships are located is not a problem

How can I say. Even an aircraft carrier is not so easy to track down, as our military was convinced more than once during the Cold War. Three or four RTOs could well try to get lost in civilian traffic, plotting a course taking into account the flight schedule of enemy satellites. And drones do not spin in the sky around the clock.

[garri-lin]

Say reasonable things and will bypass you. The paradox, however.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: garri-lin

Say reasonable things and will bypass you. The paradox, however.

In the end, after all, the madmen are not at all embarrassed that there are four or five people in the same hospital who consider themselves Napoleons. (Jean Baudrillard)

[Odysseus]

Quote: pmkemcity

In the end, after all, the madmen are not at all embarrassed that there are four or five people in the same hospital who consider themselves Napoleons. (Jean Baudrillard)

For Baudrillard plus immediately To be honest, I also don’t understand why they will pass you by. Normal reasonable discussion of significant issues.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Odyssey

To be honest, I also don’t understand why they will pass you by.

A couple of days ago, with the Jews, I took a bite for Stalin, in another branch. Now they walk around with all the kagal and pass by, not even interfering with the conversation. But I'm not with them for candy wrappers, I love them so much that I can't eat (I've been married to "Judith" for 31 years).

[Odysseus]

Quote: pmkemcity

A couple of days ago, with the Jews, I took a bite for Stalin, in another branch. Now they walk around with all the kagal and pass away, without even interfering in the conversation

Well, you are a brave person. I can still go to the NBP rally under the riot policemen, but I can hack to death for Stalin with the kagal ... I would be careful

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Odyssey

but with the kagal to hack to death for Stalin ... I would be careful

They are now also for Stalin, only the rabbi has not yet whispered about this - look Solovyov at Russia1 carefully.

[Angry]

Of course, they (RKO "Caliber") should be transferred to the container-based version. Two containers = one RTO. And in terms of money, it's probably two orders of magnitude cheaper. That is, instead of one MRK, you can get 100 container-type missile launchers. There are plenty of containers, full of trailers, with such a range they don't even need an all-terrain vehicle. These expensive PUs are practically not transportable by air. You can't really disguise them. Tolley case is a trailer. I arrived, unloaded something and left. And linking to roads is an element of passive camouflage. It's one thing, 40-foot containers in the tundra, and another, next to some kind of freight station. Also, it is necessary to "pack" in containers the Onyx anti-ballistic missile (BRCh) and Iskander missiles, and probably the S-300/400 launcher.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Angry

Of course, they (RKO "Caliber") should be transferred to the container-based version.

I took it straight and plus! In general, I think that it is simply necessary to restore the railway troops! Imagine a kind of "armored train" with Iskander calibers, torso shells, which from some abandoned quarry in the Kemerovo Region makes a thousand kilometers in one night, and all two thousand in a day, even in the direction of China, even in the West direction ... A dozen of such trains in a threatened period can oh-oh-very cool reinforce any grouping. In addition, it would be useful to have such armored trains with S-400-350, because the central regions are not covered at all.

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: pmkemcity

..who have targeting equipment?

Buyans have an over-the-horizon radar with a range of 2500 km?

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Jacket in stock

Buyans have an over-the-horizon radar with a range of 2500 km?

Which ground complex has it?

[Grits]

Quote: Jacket in stock

Buyans have an over-the-horizon radar with a range of 2500 km?

What for? But they have a computer. The database contains the exact coordinates of all potential stationary targets for "Calibers" with a range of 2500 km.

[Vladimir1155]

that is, the Iskander

[Niko]

Ground-based launchers have another advantage: engines for KAMAZ exist not only in dreams and not only in China

[Volder]

Quote: tone

After the medium-age missiles were withdrawn from the treaty, there was no point at all in these ships. They cannot attack enemy ships. Because they do not have target designation equipment.

Have you heard anything about external target designation tools? And about the network-centric interaction of military equipment / vehicles too? RTOs can attack enemy ships. Moreover, the range of destruction is the sum of the missile range + cruising range.

[venik]

Quote: tone

After the medium-age missiles were withdrawn from the treaty, there was no point at all in these ships.

======

----------

Quote: tone

They cannot attack enemy ships. Because they have no target designation equipment.

=======
Immediately - a question: HOW were the enemy supposed to attack the RK, pr. 1241 with Onyx missiles ??? Or MRK pr. 1234 with anti-ship missiles "Mosquito" ?? They, too - "over-the-horizon" and at the same time their own "over-the-horizon" radar, these ships - DO NOT HAVE? Why on corvettes pr. 20385 there are VPU and "Caliber" and on frigates pr. 22350 - also ??? What, THIS IS ALL - no one needs it either?
Or do you think a little and understand that there is also an EXTERNAL target designation system (from AWACS aircraft, satellites, other ships, over-the-horizon radars, etc.), which allows you to launch anti-ship missiles (for example, Onyx or Caliber 3M54) squared, where there is a group of enemy ships (for example, AUG), and there they will find the target themselves!
None of the "critics" thought about this ???

[Sofa batyr]

It is easy to see that the duration of the construction of the MRK pr. 21631 was constantly changing. In addition, there were noticeable intervals between the tabs of new ships. All these negative phenomena were associated with problems in the line of propulsion systems.

The first five ships received German-made MTU 16V4000M90 diesels. In 2014-15. the supply of such items has ceased due to sanctions. Later they managed to find a replacement in the form of Chinese CHD622V20 engines with similar characteristics. Further it was reported that such diesel engines are not without flaws and also need to be replaced.

Question - WHAT WE WILL CHANGE FOR?


About Chinese diesels for anti-sabotage boats of Project 21980 Grachonok (brand Henan TBD620V12) and small missile ships of Project 21631 Buyan-M (brand CHD622V20):

Due to the lack of high-speed diesel engines of such aggregate power, of our own production and meeting the customer's requirements, it was decided to install Chinese high-speed engines on the ships under construction - modern, with the required power, from Henan Diesel Engine Industry Co.

The Henan Chinese plant began operations in 1958. Since the 1980s, the company has been producing diesel engines under the Deutz-MWM license, and since 2007, machines have been added to the range under the MAN B&W Diesel AG license.

However, the CHD622V20 diesel is Henan's own design with full intellectual property rights. In terms of its characteristics, the CHD622V20, in comparison with the MTU 16V4000M90 diesel engine, has a greater continuous maximum power (3129 kW versus 2720 kW) with comparable fuel efficiency (198 versus 209 g of fuel per kW per hour).

It should be noted that at the beginning, not everything was smooth with the units from the PRC.
In 2016, during trials in the Rybinsk reservoir, two Chinese vehicles on two Grachatas were out of order. Then problems arose on the head 21631 Vyshny Volochek.
The project 22460 PSKR also did not avoid malfunctions. Engine breakdowns occurred on at least three ships of this series. The last time the diesel engine on PSKR "Perfect" failed. Then the liners on the engine turned and the crankshaft jammed.

However, after this incident, there were no malfunctions on the Chinese engines.

Separately, it is worth noting that the project involved the installation of M507A diesel engines developed in the USSR by NPO Zvezda on ships. But these machines were not suitable for operation.

The delay in the delivery of all the "Karakurt" construction of the LSP "Pella" is due precisely to the malfunctions that arose on the domestic engines from "Zvezda".

[Jacket in stock]

What a cheerful propaganda.
It seems to be funny, but how annoying.
Quite recently, here at VO there was a detailed analysis of the state of our diesel engine building, we read. And our memory is not like a fish. And here you have those ... "problems solved."
And about the fighting qualities of these overgrown boats has also been discussed here more than once.

[mark1]

Create Ladoga, Onega, Belozersk, flotillas. So let them swim there with "Calibers". And the adversary will only be able to get by air and any air defense can be provided from the coast.

[Kalmar]

Quote: mark1

Create Ladoga, Onega, Belozersk, flotillas

[mark1]

This is exactly the case when the "loaf of BREAD" is proposed to be used exactly AS a loaf of bread. It is not advisable for these dishes to swim in the okyan seas, and it is very harmful to meet on a straight line with the enemy enemy. And on the lake you will fire wherever you want and the enemy will not pick you up either by water or under water.

[Kalmar]

Quote: mark1

And on the lake you will fire wherever you want and the enemy will not pick you up either by water or under water.

The question is, why climb into the lake, if you can put PU on the shore: both cheaper and not so damp. Well, enemy submarines in the forests and steppes still rarely come across.

[mark1]

The first is mobility (everything is better than wandering along the roads). 4 theaters are available in case of something.
Second, you need to attach it all somewhere with the greatest security

[Kalmar]

Quote: mark1

The first is mobility (everything is better than dangling on the roads)

So after all, the railways decide, even within the European part of Russia. And the transfer from the Central Federal District to the Far East along the rivers is completely impossible.

Quote: mark1

4 theaters available in the case of chago

Not in the case of the Buyans: they have nothing special to do in the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet, because the weather conditions will relatively rarely allow them to work.

Quote: mark1

Second, you need to attach it all somewhere with the greatest security

It will be safer on the ground, at least you won't drown on the ground)

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Kalmar

And the transfer from the Central Federal District to the Far East along the rivers is completely impossible.

You need channels to provide connectivity. Kama-Obsky for a start.
Can we build? Sure, not a problem. We managed to bridge to Crimea and we can do it.
And despite how many people will get jobs and how the economy will grow!

[Kalmar]

Quote: Narak-zempo

And despite how many people will get jobs and how the economy will grow!

I am afraid that, mainly, the welfare of individual citizens, whose names we all know very well, will increase. However, this is a completely different story))

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Kalmar

I am afraid that, mainly, the welfare of individual citizens, whose names we all know very well, will increase. However, this is a completely different story))

There is such a thing as "trickle-down economics". So, if the income of big business grows, everyone gets better.

[mark1]

Duck, do you propose to bury the existing crew in the ground?)))
It's not about which is better. And about how best to use all this "wealth".
From the theater of operations - the Caspian Sea, the Black Sea, the Baltic, the White Sea (if necessary, in which case)

[Kalmar]

Quote: mark1

Duck, do you propose to bury the existing crew in the ground?)))

No, of course, he just theorized about the usefulness of "Buyans" in general. The existing ones, of course, now have to be used somehow: after all, the money has been spent, and the Navy is not in the right position to scatter ships. Then, when we get more useful ships, we can sell the Vietnamese or the Chinese, for example.

[Niko]

"It is necessary to attach somewhere" this is a very suitable characteristic for these boats: it is a pity that the question "why then build exactly THIS?" Did not arise before they stamped

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Kalmar

The question is, why climb into the lake

Have you forgotten the blockade already?

[Grits]

Quote: Kalmar

The question is, why climb into the lake, if you can put PU on the shore: both cheaper and not so damp. Well, enemy submarines in the forests and steppes still rarely come across

Well, then it's better to go to the railway platform. Here you have both the number of launchers, and what no air defense, and the communication system for target designation and comfort for the "crew". Wheel yourself on a piece of iron along the borders, and parrot the foe.

[Castro Ruiz]

Eti "kanonerskie lodki" godni tolko dla Kaspia, ogranichenno dla Baltika i ozer.

[T.A.V.]

Everyone laughed at Country 404, with its mosquito fleet. And here we also sculpt. Lived ...

[Vadim237]

Their mosquito and ours is heaven and earth in everything.

[Pavel57]

Floating batteries are needed, but the meaning of maneuvering along the rivers is no longer there, all the more so was the well-known transition to the Baltic with checking the seaworthiness of the ship and crew.
Karakurt looks more meaningful, albeit more expensive. It makes sense to develop the direction of the Republic of Kazakhstan in the interests of fighting ships and submarines.

[iouris]

Grayvoron is a city. There are two (at least). And one is in Ukraine.

[Old26]

Quote: tone

After the medium-age missiles were withdrawn from the treaty, there was no point at all in these ships. They cannot attack enemy ships. Because they do not have target designation equipment. It's better to build Caliber ground launchers on a car chassis cheaper and angrier ...

They can attack enemy ships. The firing range of 400 km is not that great. And they are "in place" in such "closed" theaters of war as the Caspian, Black and Baltic seas

Quote: Odyssey

The point was to bypass the missile restrictions.

The point was different. Find a replacement for the mass of missile boats that were written off. The main BMZ for such ships is the anti-ship missiles. The fact that it can carry a version of the "Caliber" for shooting at ground targets is a nice addition (by the way, not prohibited by any agreements).
What is the point of "bypassing" the treaty on medium-range missiles, betting on a subsonic missile, which will fly at maximum for 2-3 hours and which is easy enough to shoot down for countries with air defense?

Quote: Odyssey

what if we agree on the reduction of offshore installations, then what? We are talking about the realities, if there is no agreement, it makes sense to build ground-based launchers, not ships.

Marine installations NEVER will not be cut. We will not find a common denominator here with the Americans. All Tomahawk-type missile carriers are naval. So you shouldn't hope for it.
With regard to land. It doesn't make much sense to build them. They are not as versatile as ships. The ships can strike at targets located at a distance exceeding the flight range of the same "Caliber".

Quote: Kalmar

If short-range missiles were once banned, what will prevent the ban on ships of small, shall we say, missile capacity? )) You can agree in different ways.

Short-range missiles have NEVER been banned. Ban ships of small rocket capacity? Yes, easily. NONE of American ships will go under the knife. But all our RTOs, corvettes and possibly some of the frigates are 100%

Quote: Kalmar

With mobility, everything is ambiguous. A ground-based launcher can be loaded onto a railway platform and relatively quickly overtake a lot.

Can. But what will it do? There are very few "Papuans" against whom "ground" variants of "Calibers" can be used in our environment. Is that some of the former Central Asian Soviet republics, the Balts and Mongolia. Such weapons are ineffective against the rest.

Quote: Kalmar

Then, the ground launcher is covered by air defense forces; "Buyan" will be under their protection only at the very coast. And even in this case, it can be threatened by enemy submarines (and with PLO in our fleet now everything is sour).

You will decide where you will deploy the Caliber ground launchers. Under the "umbrella" of air defense or drive "a lot of where", where the nearest air defense battalion may be several hundred kilometers away. And in the same way, the "Caliber" launchers will be defenseless against enemy aircraft and their cruise missiles. For the air defense divisions will have completely different objects of protection and will protect the "Caliber" launchers according to the leftover principle. Maximum protection is MANPADS

Quote: Kalmar

Ground installations are easier to disperse: launchers stand separately at a distance from each other, separate command post, separate radar, etc. Covering all the components at once will not be easy for the enemy. In the case of Buyan, all this is heated at once and in bulk.

And at what distance from each other and from the command post and radar will the launchers be located? Or do you think that distances will be measured in tens of kilometers? They did not pay attention to the plots when the coastal complexes "Bastion" are being deployed. Distances between them are a maximum of a couple of tens of meters. Besides, if you are going to use them as a RCC, you will have to concentrate them too close to each other. You do not need a locator to fire the KR 3M14, and the probability that such a missile will hit a target in Europe is extremely small.

Quote: Volder

There are no aircraft carriers in the Black, Baltic and Caspian Seas. Enemy aircraft taking off from the shore will have no time for Buyans. It will be met by our fighters - Su-30SM, Su-35. Let me remind you that in terms of the number of combat aircraft, Russia ranks second in the world after the United States.

But these planes are spread all over Russia. All NATO countries are against us. So it is extremely presumptuous to count on air superiority outside of Russia and some coastal areas.

[A_Lex]

According to the results of the fulfillment of all existing plans, the Russian Navy will include 12 Buyan-M small missile ships. They will be distributed among the three fleet formations, possibly equally. At the same time, it is possible to extend the series to re-equip other fleets.

Buyans' construction cannot be extended. The 12 planned ships are more than enough to ensure rapid rotation along inland waterways between the CFL, BF and Black Sea Fleet, if necessary.

Further, within the framework of this type of ships, only Karakurt needs to be built. The Buyans' seaworthiness is limited, the speed of 25 knots is insufficient, there is no close air defense as such, unlike the same Karakurt, on which the Pantsir is placed starting from the third side.

[garri-lin]

Duet on Buyan, if you try, can be replaced with Shell. Only. This for the money will be sooooo expensive for such a boat.

[Old26]

Quote: Angry

Of course, they (RKO "Caliber") should be transferred to the container-based version. Two containers = one RTO.

As far as I understand, you don't need a radar at all. Lick your finger, lift it up and immediately give target designation ...

Quote: Angry

And in terms of money, it's probably two orders of magnitude cheaper.

Don't hesitate, say 10 orders of magnitude cheaper. Is the container everything? And how will you transport it? On civilian platforms? Or on a trailer? The cost of the trailer - will it not be included in the price? And most importantly, for whom will you use these containers? By the Papuans? So they are not around us. European NATO countries? So they have air defense there built on Soviet complexes? Or do you think that a subsonic rocket will be allowed to fly 1500-2500 km in the territories of several countries and will not be shot down ???

Quote: Angry

Tolley case is a trailer. I arrived, unloaded something and left.

No need to snapping a trigger point? KP is also not needed? Or will you shoot into the white light, like a pretty penny?

Quote: Angry

It is also necessary to "pack" in containers the Onyx anti-ballistic missile (BRCH) and the Iskander missile, and probably the S-300/400 launcher.

The main thing is, when you place the TPK from the S-300 / S-400 there, do not forget to grab a hacksaw so that you can cut off excess from these missiles