Anti-aircraft missile systems on submarines: the inevitable evolution of the submarine

165


To begin with, we will announce a few points:



1. Submarines (submarines), in particular nuclear submarines (submarines), are the main striking force of the Naval fleet (Navy) of Russia.

2. In fact, at the moment, submarines are the only means of the Russian Navy that pose a threat to the naval forces (Navy) of potential adversaries at a distance from their own shores.

3. Detection and destruction of our submarines can be carried out:

- submarines and submarines of the enemy;

- enemy surface ships (NK);

- planes and helicopters aviation anti-submarine defense (PLO) of the enemy.

4. Our submarines can actively counter enemy submarines, submarines and NKs.

Note. Serious qualitative and quantitative problems with the equipment and weapons of Russian submarines / submarines are periodically voiced on the pages of VO. In particular, with torpedo armament and anti-torpedoes (they are either outdated or not worked out, or they are few or not available at all). In this article, we put this question out of the brackets. Since at least work is underway in this direction, and claims to their current results are publicly voiced.

5. Our submarines are incapable of counteracting the PLO aviation (for the sake of fairness it must be said that no submarines can do this yet). They can only hide from them.

Anti-aircraft missile systems on submarines: the inevitable evolution of the submarine
Submarines are the main striking force of the Russian Navy

What poses the greatest threat to SPs?


The threat to submarines consists of the possibility of its detection and the probability of its destruction.

A submarine-hunter, performing the task of detecting enemy submarines, cannot move faster than the low-noise speed, which for the most modern submarines is about 20 knots, that is, about 40 km / h. At higher speed, the PLA-hunter will unmask himself with noise and will turn into a target itself. Comparable figures can be used for surface ships.


American submarines Seawolf have a low-noise speed of 20 knots and are one of the most dangerous underwater opponents.

The detection range of submarines by an enemy submarine or surface ship depends on the technical level of the ships of the opposing sides, the experience of the crews and the hydrological situation in the search area.

Based on open sources, it can be assumed that the detection range of submarines can be about 50 kilometers or less.

The next factor is the range of weapons used to defeat submarines. The range of the American Mk-48 torpedo reaches 50 kilometers, the RUM-139 VL-Asroc missile-torpedoes used from surface ships have a range of 28 kilometers, plus 10 kilometers of the cruising range of the Mk-54 torpedoes installed on them.

For simplicity, we will take a single defeat range - 50 kilometers.


Torpedo Mk-48 (top) and rocket-torpedo RUM-139 VL-Asroc (bottom) - launch, diagram and delivered small torpedo. Pay attention to how much space a torpedo takes in a rocket-torpedo - it will not be possible to increase its range significantly.

Thus, a ship or submarine can travel about 1000 kilometers per day, having surveyed 100 square kilometers, in which they can potentially detect and destroy enemy submarines.

It is a square with a side just over 300 kilometers.

Is it a lot or a little, given that the actual surveyed area will be much smaller due to the need to "search" for potential contacts?


The approximate area that a submarine or surface ship can survey for the presence of an enemy submarine per day.

Of course, you could say that this is not how the search works. And that the surface ship will not snake along the route. That will involve carrier-based aircraft and sonar buoys.

But we need to understand how critical the impact of the presence / absence of aviation on the anti-submarine capabilities of the fleet is. Therefore, at this stage, aviation in any form is deliberately excluded.

Although sonar buoys will simplify the search, they will in no way solve the problem of hitting submarines outside the zone of action of anti-submarine weapons. Their number on the ship is limited, and deployment will also take time.

Of the above figures, the limited range of anti-submarine weapons... It is unlikely that it can be significantly increased in any way. In the absence of aircraft, the enemy's NK or submarine cannot in any way hit a detected submarine that is outside the range of torpedoes / rocket-torpedoes. By the time a submarine or NK reaches the line of attack, contact with the detected submarine may have already been lost.

In addition, the attacked submarine can detect its pursuers, dodge torpedoes, deceive them with decoy targets or intercept them with counter-torpedoes, and also attack itself. The situation may well develop so that the enemy's anti-submarine forces will be detected and attacked before they can detect the desired submarine.

PLO aviation has a huge advantage - a high flight speed, which is more than an order of magnitude higher than the speed of movement of NK and submarines. This allows her to quickly move to a given area, to concentrate the necessary forces in a selected area. Anti-submarine aviation is capable of both acting independently and acting as a "catalyst" for the anti-submarine effectiveness of surface ships.

The second important advantage of ASW aviation is its actual invulnerability to submarines at the moment.

NATO's ASW aircraft includes hundreds of anti-submarine aircraft and helicopters. And how are the crews of the planes and helicopters of the PLO of the potential enemy feeling now?

And they feel great.

At present, there are practically no threats to them. We have no deck aviation. And it is unlikely that it will appear in the near future. It is enough to stay away from surface ships. In general, you can work calmly, drinking coffee from a thermos, consistently searching for and destroying Russian submarines.


The crews of PLO aircraft and helicopters can work in a calm, comfortable atmosphere, because they are not in danger now.

However, let's imagine that anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) appeared on submarines.

Features of the confrontation


It is believed that air defense (AA) based only on air defense systems, without the support of fighter aircraft, will always lose the battle of attacking enemy aircraft.

This is due to the highest mobility of the latter, which allows each time to concentrate the forces necessary to "hack" a specific air defense area, then move on to the next, and so on.

Let's assume (conditionally) that our air defense systems have become "underground", and their exact location is unknown. At the initial stage, in general, there is no information whether they are in a particular area or not. Only a few minutes pass between their appearance “on the surface” (deployment), and after a few minutes they disappear again, after which their location begins to change at a speed of the order of 10–40 km / h (the quiet speed of submarines of different types). The attacking aviation will neither work out a safe route for the passage, nor throw anti-radar missiles or stealthy gliding bombs on the air defense system.

How much would the losses of the USA / NATO have increased if such "wandering" air defense systems appeared in Iraq or Yugoslavia?

Now let's get back to PLO aviation.

Unlike land, the situation here is much worse. In combat mode, PLO aircraft and helicopters are limited in the choice of the altitude profile and flight speed.

For example, the American P-8 Poseidon anti-submarine aircraft patrols at an altitude of 60 meters and a speed of 333 km / h. For any modern air defense system, this is just a gift. No supersonic low-altitude breakthroughs using uneven terrain, no high-altitude flights at 15-20 kilometers and a speed of 2-3M.

PLO aviation is a rather expensive toy.

If at least piston / turboprop aircraft can be used on land - modern analogues of aircraft of the Second World War (for solving a number of problems), then this will not work with countering submarines.

Nor will it be possible to make many inexpensive unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) to solve PLO problems. They will have to carry sophisticated search equipment and heavy torpedoes. "Baykatars" are not enough here.

In general, the loss of PLO aircraft and helicopters financially will always be very sensitive for the enemy.


It will not be possible to use inexpensive aircraft and UAVs as PLO aviation.


The anti-submarine capabilities of the Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Triton UAV are very limited, and the price is comparable to the cost of the latest P-8 Poseidon PLO aircraft.

Psychological factor.

As we mentioned earlier, the crews of PLO aircraft and helicopters are now working in comfort. But what if the situation has changed and the threat of a surprise attack looms over them? The pilot of a combat aircraft can eject, on the ground, he can try to get out on his own or wait for a rescue team. He can get drinking water, food, find shelter.

It will be much more difficult to do all this on the high seas. This is not to mention the fact that the 9 crew members of the P-8 Poseidon, shot down at an altitude of 60 meters, have practically no chance of escape. The crews of the PLO helicopters do not have them either.

And if anyone survives? In a life jacket, in cold waters or warm, but with sharks by your side?

If the PLO helicopter can be close to the carrier, then PLO aircraft fly far away.
It is almost impossible to pick them up from the water - the helicopter will not have enough range. And from airplanes only amphibians can do it. But the US doesn't have them. And they can not sit down with any excitement. It takes a long time for the ship to go. And will he be sent in a combat situation for the possible rescue of several people?

In general, in such a situation, hunting submarines will no longer be an easy walk. Which will accordingly affect the mood of the crews. It is possible that some of them will no longer want to know

“Does the Heffalump whistle? And if it does, then why? "


The presence of air defense systems on Russian submarines will make the work of the crews of US and NATO PLO aircraft and helicopters much less comfortable.

Why not shoot down PLO planes and helicopters using surface-to-air missile systems?

Yes, because a surface ship, or a naval strike group (KUG) is the same "ground" air defense outpost, on which, when it is detected, the number of aircraft, anti-radar and anti-ship missiles (ASM) necessary for its destruction will be thrown.


The B-1B bomber will be able to carry up to 36 AGM-158C LRASM anti-ship missiles on the external sling and in the internal compartments. Ten B-1B aircraft can launch a flock of 360 stealth low-flying anti-ship missiles, which cannot be repelled by any air defense.

Another important factor is that land-based air defense systems or air defense systems of surface ships most often have to protect not only themselves, but also some other objects: cover an oil refinery or armored vehicles, a landing ship or a supply vessel. The submarine does not need to cover anyone; it is enough for it to fight off the attacking planes or PLO helicopters. In addition, air defense systems on submarines can be used as an offensive weapon.

Technical solutions


The very idea of ​​equipping submarines with air defense systems is not new. In particular, the French Navy conducted active research in this direction.

In early 2018, the author published an article Atomic Multifunctional Submarine Cruiser: Asymmetrical Response to the West and its continuation - Atomic Multifunctional Submarine Cruiser: Paradigm Shift.

In these articles, the issue of creating a nuclear multifunctional submarine cruiser (AMFPK) equipped with cruise missiles and long-range air defense systems was considered. The second article provides examples of foreign projects of underwater air defense systems. The complexity of implementation and the tasks that AMPPK can solve are a topic for a separate conversation. Better to start with something simpler.


Possible appearance of AMFPK based on the project 955A strategic missile submarine cruiser (SSBN).

The use of air defense systems on submarines, coupled with other active defense systems, was also considered by the author in the article At the border of two environments. The evolution of promising submarines in conditions of increased probability of their detection by the enemy.

Why is the air defense system on the submarine still not implemented, because the United States is quite capable of this task?

It can be assumed that during the confrontation between the United States and the USSR, when there was a need for this, technical obstacles did not allow this - there were no effective infrared and active radar homing heads (IR seeker / ARL seeker), which would allow the destruction of targets without their continuous support by the carrier. And now the United States simply does not need it, since Russia has practically no anti-submarine aviation, and the Chinese has not yet reached the required technical level.

Nevertheless, according to some reports, the United States is considering the possibility of installing a 300-500 kilowatt laser weapon on a Virginia-class submarine. The advantages of this solution were considered by the author in the article At the border of two environments. Why is the US Navy a combat laser for a Virginia-type nuclear submarine and is Peresvet needed for a Laika project nuclear submarine?

In short, laser weapons provide significantly higher concealment of use than air defense systems. The output optics of the laser can be placed on the periscope, during its operation there is no noise and vibration, there are no sounds of opening mines, launching missiles.

In the case of using an optical location station (OLS) for guidance, the crew of an airplane or an PLO helicopter may not even understand that it was attacked (laser radiation sensors may not detect damage to some points). However, with all the promise of laser weapons, we should focus on more realistic projects. We do not yet have solid-state lasers with a power of 300–500 kW.


Perhaps the Virginia-class submarines will become the first submarines capable of destroying ASW aircraft from under the water, while at periscope depth.

One of the main problems of the Russian Navy is significant delays in the introduction of new technologies. Therefore, at the first stage of the introduction of air defense systems on submarines, it is necessary to apply the simplest and most economical technical solutions.

Based on this, it can be assumed that the optimal solution for the cost / efficiency criterion may be the integration of the Redut-type air defense missile system on the submarine. Of course, the complex will undergo some changes. First of all, in terms of target detection and target designation to anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM). This task should be solved by means of a regular submarine periscope.

Of course, a radar station (radar) is capable of significantly increasing the capabilities of an air defense system. But the existing solutions are large enough. And if we are not talking about a specialized submarine, like the aforementioned AMFPK, then it will be difficult to integrate the radar on a multipurpose submarine. In the future, of course, there will be comfortable solutions that do not increase the dimensions of the periscope tip.


Modern periscopes, including Russian ones, are capable of detecting air targets.

To defeat planes and helicopters of PLO aviation, upgraded 9M96E, 9M96E2 missiles with an active radar homing head (ARLGSN) and 9M100 short-range missiles with an infrared homing head (IKGSN), capable of engaging targets without continuous target designation or target illumination, should be used.

Of course, with this method of target designation, the probability of a miss increases, but after all, our target is not a super-maneuverable fighter, not a hypersonic warhead, not an inconspicuous cruise missile or even a U-2 high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft, but a large-sized, non-maneuverable, slowly flying plane or a PLO helicopter.


The layout of the 9M96E SAM in a transport and launch container (TPK) and the quadruple package TPK 9M100 SAM.
] Photo: bastion-karpenko.ru

SAM 9M96E2 provides target destruction at a range of up to 150 km at an altitude of its flight from 5 meters to 30 kilometers, SAM 9M100 provides target destruction at a range of up to 15 kilometers and a target flight altitude of 5 meters to 8 kilometers. These parameters overlap with a margin the characteristics of all potential targets.

The modernization of missiles will include the possibility of launching them from under the water, from periscope depth. To increase the probability of hitting the target, the transmission of commands to the missile defense system via fiber-optic cable can be implemented until the moment it leaves the water and the target is captured by the seeker. Four 9M96E, 9M96E2 missiles with ARLGSN or 9M100 IKGSN short-range missiles can fit into one vertical launch unit (UVP) of a multipurpose submarine (MCSAPL). The length of the 9M100 SAM cassette makes it possible to place it in the UVP in "two floors", if it is technically possible to realize the possibility of ejecting an empty upper cassette after firing the ammunition.

Proceeding from this, replacing four anti-ship missiles in the mines of project 885M MCSAPLs with cassettes with missiles, we will receive ammunition in an amount, for example, 8 9M96E / 9M96E2 missiles and 8/16 9M100 missiles. To attack an aircraft or an PLO helicopter, a combined launch of two 9M96E / 9M96E2 missiles and two 9M100 missiles can be used, which minimizes the target's chances of survival. This will make it possible with a high probability to ensure the destruction of four PLO aircraft / helicopters. According to the test results, the consumption of ammunition for one target can be reduced. On the other hand, depending on the problem being solved, the ammunition load of the SAMs on the SSNS can be increased.

Consequences and tactics


How can air defense systems be used on submarines? And what are the consequences of his appearance?


The appearance of air defense systems on submarines will change the situation at sea by the mere fact of its existence. For example, if information appears that Russian SSNS and SSBNs are equipped with air defense missile systems, their tests have been carried out and training air targets have been successfully hit, the United States cannot but respond, since their most effective ASW forces will be threatened.

This will require a change in tactics, equipping PLO aircraft and helicopters with active and passive countermeasures, and the development of specialized PLO UAVs. Changing the payload of PLO aircraft in favor of self-defense systems will lead to a decrease in their ammunition and / or hydroacoustic buoys, and PLO UAVs are likely to be less effective than manned vehicles.

In addition, as mentioned above, the specificity of anti-submarine warfare will not allow such UAVs to be made cheap. Because they will have to carry expensive search equipment, as well as massive weapons and sonar buoys.

In any case, the effectiveness of enemy ASW aircraft will be reduced. At the same time, since the enemy cannot know the exact composition of the ammunition load of the SSNS and SSBNs on duty, in fact, there may not be any missiles on board at all. But this virtually absent air defense system will still have an impact on ASW aviation by the potential of its presence, reducing the efficiency of its work.

There is another factor.

With increasing depth, the probability of submarine detection by acoustic methods increases due to the compression of the hull, and especially with the help of low-frequency hydroacoustic stations (GAS). This can lead to the fact that submarines will predominantly operate in the near-surface water layer.

However, another threat arises here - the improvement of non-acoustic methods for detecting submarines - by the field of the submarine track, using magnetometric sensors, laser scanners. The carriers of the aforementioned non-acoustic detection means are predominantly ASW aviation.

Without taking radical measures - reducing the size, changing the shape of the submarine body, using new materials and active camouflage means, it will not be possible to solve the problem of detecting submarines.

However, having armed the submarine air defense missile system, we will give it the opportunity to actively counter the detection of the enemy by destroying it. If earlier and now submarines can only oppose submarines and NKs of the enemy, then the integration of air defense missile systems into their armament will make it possible to resist anti-submarine aircraft as well.


Promising submarines based on the latest concepts and technical solutions will be able to regain their stealth.


More conventional submarines will have to rely more on active self-defense systems.

When they talk about air defense systems on submarines, they often object that the use of air defense systems will immediately unmask the submarine, the enemy will send additional forces to the area, after which the submarine will be detected and destroyed.

But who makes it necessary to use the air defense system?

The use of air defense systems is not an obligation, it is an opportunity.

As we said above, the very likelihood of the presence of an air defense system on a submarine will reduce the effectiveness of an anti-submarine aircraft. And then, let the submarine commander decide on the use of the air defense system, based on the tactical situation.

If the submarine has already been detected, torpedo armament has been opened on it, and it was possible to fight off the first strike, then why not shoot down the submarine? He will not deliver the second blow.

But you can not knock him down and make an attempt to leave, as it is done now. With the difference that now there is no other choice.

Or maybe a decision will be made to shoot down the PLO aircraft immediately after the hydroacoustic buoys began to fall into the water and the fact of active illumination was discovered - then the first attack may not take place.

Will they send two more PLO aircraft to replace the downed one?

If they are based 400-500 kilometers from the battle area, then this is about 30-40 minutes of flight at maximum speed. And then they again have to start searching for the submarine, which during this time will go 15-25 kilometers in an unknown direction.

But what if the submarine moves towards the approaching PLO aircraft (based on their intended route) and attacks first?

What if this is the goal - the organization of an ambush on the PLO aircraft?

Or is the goal - to divert ASW aviation from another area, where other submarines will strike at other targets?

Thus, the presence of an air defense system on a submarine can significantly expand the number of tactical scenarios that can be implemented by the commander of the submarine and the navy as a whole.

The US Navy has about a hundred newest Poseidons. Even if we consider that they patrol around the clock, in turn, it turns out that at any given moment half of them will be involved - about 50 cars. Divide them between fleets and areas of responsibility, and it turns out that, in fact, the United States does not have so many modern ASW aircraft.

The appearance of air defense systems on Russian submarines in the event of a military conflict can significantly reduce the number of anti-submarine aircraft at the enemy.

This, in turn, will lead to a decrease in the likelihood of destruction of domestic submarines and an increase in the effectiveness of their actions.
165 comments
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  1. 0
    4 February 2021 05: 27
    The article is interesting and the pictures are funny.
    I have a question for the author, perhaps an amateurish one. In what situation, in what conflict can our submarines use anti-aircraft systems against the aviation of a potential enemy?
    1. -5
      4 February 2021 06: 45
      And what prevents against such an advanced boat from creating a hyperfast PLUR with a range of 500-1000 km?
      1. +6
        4 February 2021 08: 10
        Quote: Yuri V.A.
        And what prevents against such an advanced boat from creating a hyperfast PLUR with a range of 500-1000 km?


        That it will be the size and cost of the Topol ICBM.
        1. +1
          4 February 2021 09: 01
          Well, just that, just Poplar. At first, the size of the X-32 will do.
        2. +3
          4 February 2021 19: 00
          Quote: AVM
          Quote: Yuri V.A.
          And what prevents against such an advanced boat from creating a hyperfast PLUR with a range of 500-1000 km?


          That it will be the size and cost of the Topol ICBM.


          But what about the unparalleled Zircon? Why is it the size of Onyx and not Poplar?
          And the mass of the warhead is the same as the mass of the entire Mk-54 ...
          1. 0
            4 February 2021 19: 38
            Quote: SovAr238A
            Quote: AVM
            Quote: Yuri V.A.
            And what prevents against such an advanced boat from creating a hyperfast PLUR with a range of 500-1000 km?


            That it will be the size and cost of the Topol ICBM.


            But what about the unparalleled Zircon? Why is it the size of Onyx and not Poplar?
            And the mass of the warhead is the same as the mass of the entire Mk-54 ...


            As for Poplar, of course, I exaggerated. There, the question is not about the mass, but about the dimensions. A torpedo under 3 meters long, half the length of a rocket.

            As soon as it is inserted into the missile, the range of the latter drops to 50 km. To throw it at 300-500 km, the rocket will be, if not from Poplar, then from P-700 "Granit".
            1. 0
              5 February 2021 02: 54
              All your reasoning for the most part is an exaggeration. Don't you think that the emergence of any serious threat from under the water to the aircraft will not entail changes in the tactics of using anti-submarine forces and means? In the future development of submarines, anything is possible, we do not deny this, but so far the game is not worth the candle.
      2. +2
        4 February 2021 15: 46
        And what prevents against such an advanced boat from creating a hyperfast PLUR with a range of 500-1000 km?

        no target designation for such a range
        1. +1
          4 February 2021 19: 00
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          And what prevents against such an advanced boat from creating a hyperfast PLUR with a range of 500-1000 km?

          no target designation for such a range


          Does Caliber or Zircon have?
          1. 0
            5 February 2021 13: 28
            MKRTs Liana 4 KA Lotos-S passive RTR + 2 Pion-NKS RLR
            4 lotuses provide double coverage of the entire earth's surface
            1. 0
              8 February 2021 10: 44
              Quote: Romario_Argo
              MKRTs Liana 4 KA Lotos-S passive RTR + 2 Pion-NKS RLR
              4 lotuses provide double coverage of the entire earth's surface


              And how many satellites in fact?
              And the orbital time?

              Did you yourself look at the trajectories of these satellites?

              Well, why not carry heresy?
              1. 0
                9 February 2021 17: 40
                understandably. everything is with you. Too long to explain. then you yourself will understand everything. learn the mathematical part
        2. 0
          5 February 2021 01: 26
          Target designations are given by the same stationary anti-submarine systems, satellites, ships and aircraft from a safe distance. With these means, the enemies are still doing well.
    2. 0
      4 February 2021 10: 18
      Quote: tasha
      I have a question for the author, perhaps an amateurish one. In what situation, in what conflict can our submarines use anti-aircraft systems against the aviation of a potential enemy?


      In conflict with someone who has advanced PLO aircraft.
      1. +2
        4 February 2021 10: 54
        Hmm .. Your answer to a bad grade, to be honest ...
        That's your business.
        1. +1
          4 February 2021 18: 16
          As soon as the air defense missile rocket flew out from under the water, count the submarine that released it - the deceased. Yes
          1. +1
            4 February 2021 18: 25
            Situations are different, so I wanted to know how the author sees the possible use of air defense systems on submarines.
            Then a thought arose and I think of it ... If, for example, we create air defense missile launcher boats. They will accompany submarines with nuclear weapons and, if necessary, protect them from potential enemy aircraft and allow SSBNs to fulfill their task.
  2. 0
    4 February 2021 05: 31
    The output optics of the laser can be placed on the periscope, during its operation there is no noise and vibration, there are no sounds of opening mines, launching missiles.
    Even without taking into account the power of the laser, do not forget about the output dimensions of the combat optics and the guidance drive of these optics, a periscope the size of a motorboat will not work? Unscientific fiction.
    Well, by itself, the SAM is good, but without a radar there is little sense in them, and it is a pleasure to direct missiles to the radar on the surface of the sea.
    1. +5
      4 February 2021 05: 51
      Well, by itself, the SAM is good, but without a radar there is little sense in them, and it is a pleasure to direct missiles to the radar on the surface of the sea.

      holy naivety. Why place an oversized and heavy radar antenna if there is an OLS. Its BOM-35 has quite small dimensions and weight.
      1. +2
        4 February 2021 05: 57
        Quote: Ka-52
        holy naivety. Why radar if there is an OLS
        Well, yes, yes, and that's why they don't put radars on fighters? And what is its weather resistance? But you are right, for close air defense, with understandable reservations, it will do.
        1. +7
          4 February 2021 06: 04
          Well, yes, yes, and that's why they don't put radars on fighters? And what is its weather resistance?

          compared horseradish with a finger. Is your submarine designed to provide air superiority? laughing Aircraft need a radar in order to detect the enemy at the greatest possible distance - over 100 km .. Plus, the radar allows you to move the border of identification, guidance and missile launch at a distance of up to 60 km, even at a maneuvering and / or hidden target.
          And OLS is a tool for medium and short distances. In the PPS, the detection range of a fighter-type target is 35 km. Data output for shooting - up to 30 km
          But for a submarine (whose survival lies in stealth) this will be enough as a last argument in case of detection and threat of attack.
          1. +1
            4 February 2021 06: 16
            Quote: Ka-52
            compared horseradish with a finger. Is your submarine designed to provide air superiority?
            I didn't compare anything with anything, but I read the article carefully enough:
            Based on this, it can be assumed that the optimal solution according to the cost / efficiency criterion may be the integration of the Redut-type air defense system on the submarine.
            The range is more than your 35 km. Just right for the radar of opportunity
            Quote: Ka-52
            over 100 km .. Plus the radar allows you to move the border of identification, guidance and missile launch at a distance of up to 60 km, even at a maneuvering and / or hidden target.
            Well, of course, the PLo plane, having detected the launch, will instantly turn into a maneuvering target, if possible, and certainly the most obscured by interference, you must agree.

            Quote: Ka-52
            And OLS is a tool for medium and short distances. In the PPS, the detection range is 35 km
            So OLS is a kiss from the grave. It's a matter of luck though. But the plane is much cheaper than a nuclear submarine.
            I repeat once again, I am not against air defense systems as part of nuclear submarine weapons, but you should not exaggerate their power and significance.
            1. +1
              4 February 2021 06: 31
              Well, of course, the PLo plane, having detected the launch, will instantly turn into a maneuvering target, if possible, and certainly the most obscured by interference, you must agree.

              disagree. Have you ever tried to maneuver in something like the P-3C Orion? And how will he cover himself besides the LTZ?
              Based on this, it can be assumed that the optimal solution according to the cost / efficiency criterion may be the integration of the Redut-type air defense system on the submarine.

              Well, that is, the station will have to be mounted on the wheelhouse, and for effective detection and target designation, the submarine will have to surface? Is the solution effective? Doubtful.
              So OLS is a kiss from the grave. It's a matter of luck though. But the plane is much cheaper than a nuclear submarine.

              it is only on your subjective and superficial view. At least this is a means against PLO helicopters.
              1. +1
                4 February 2021 06: 46
                Quote: Ka-52
                disagree. Have you ever tried to maneuver in something like the P-3C Orion? And how will he cover himself besides the LTZ?
                I am surprised, in addition to the LTC, there are towed traps and active means of self-defense on the way, although there is already an argument in favor of the author, there are fewer means of anti-aircraft defense, and of maneuvering. exit with a decrease is also a maneuver. )))
                Quote: Ka-52
                Well, that is, the station will have to be mounted on the wheelhouse, and for effective detection and target designation, the submarine will have to surface? Is the solution effective? Doubtful.
                This is a question for the author.
                Quote: Ka-52
                it is only on your subjective and superficial view. At least this is a means against PLO helicopters.
                A superficial view, according to the specifics of the article. )))
                In general, I thought, and perhaps I agree with the author. And even against the radar I will stop arguing, having put the OLS, it is necessary to put a radar of the fighter type (dimensions and capabilities), since such a booze has gone! This is what a hedgehog in the pants of the PLO aviation of a probable proactive one, even in peacetime, can be allowed!
                1. +3
                  4 February 2021 06: 57
                  in addition to the LTC, there are towed traps and active self-defense equipment on the way

                  on PLO helicopters, installation of ADBL is not possible. And they are unlikely to be installed on PLO aircraft. As well as active means of self-defense.
                  well, maneuvering. exit with a decrease is also a maneuver. )))

                  any maneuvering only reduces the effective range of fire. But does not completely exclude it)
                  And even against the radar I will stop

                  IMHO all this is like a goat's 5th leg. Because he will not save from the detection of submarines. And the submarine is not able to try to fight off the air defense systems with the help of the air defense missile system. They will simply bring stronger funds to the area and they will kill the hog sooner or later.
                  1. +1
                    4 February 2021 07: 12
                    Quote: Ka-52
                    on PLO helicopters, installation of ADBL is not possible. And they are unlikely to be installed on PLO aircraft. As well as active means of self-defense.
                    This is from a number of assumptions, but if it is physically possible and necessary, then it will have to.
                    Quote: Ka-52
                    any maneuvering only reduces the effective range of fire. But does not completely exclude it)
                    Leaving reduces the distance ?!
                    Quote: Ka-52
                    IMHO all this is like a goat's 5th leg. Because he will not save from the detection of submarines. And the submarine is not capable of trying to fight off PLO aircraft with the help of the air defense system.
                    You are already contradicting yourself. Either it is useless to maneuver and there is no sense in traps, then the submarine cannot fight back. And about helicopters, in the presence of air defense systems on submarines, they can also turn out to be more dangerous than UAVs of PLO, if only due to the fact that they are based on NK, and do not fly far from them.
                    1. 0
                      4 February 2021 07: 44
                      Leaving reduces the distance ?!

                      in WB, descent to the ground performs several tasks. First, the missile's flight range at low altitude is significantly lower than at high altitude. Secondly, the terrain and underlying surface will complicate the work of the radar to acquire a target. Accordingly, the PUK will not give the command to open fire until the distance allows for the capture.
                      Thirdly, descent escape allows, on the basis of the above, to disrupt the capture and, if possible, leave the zone of influence of the enemy radar.
                      You are already contradicting yourself. Either it is useless to maneuver and there is no sense in traps, then the submarine cannot fight back.

                      I’m not contradicting, you don’t want to think about it. I wrote that maneuvering on Orion-class planes is like writing out eights on a KAMAZ semi-trailer. This can be called antimissile maneuvering rather conditionally. LTZ is really not an effective enough remedy, because. their spectrum of seeker missiles can easily filter out.
                      And the submarine will not be able to fight off because in order to repel an air attack, the submarine will have to surface. At least to periscope depth. That is, to lose in the vicinity of the enemy your main trump card is secrecy. And in case of a serious threat, the enemy's helicopters and anti-aircraft missile planes will simply direct the forces with much greater power to the submarine. In tch and surface ships.
                      1. +1
                        4 February 2021 08: 21
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        Leaving reduces the distance ?!
                        in WB, descent to the ground performs several tasks. First, the missile's flight range at low altitude is significantly lower than at high altitude.
                        And yes, I did not quite understand correctly, I confess, but
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        Thirdly, descent escape allows, on the basis of the above, to disrupt the capture and, if possible, get out of the zone of influence of the enemy radar
                        If a measure reduces the likelihood of destruction, then it is applied, and the PLO aircraft will be obliged to apply it.


                        Quote: Ka-52
                        it's not me who contradicts, you don't want to think about it
                        Is it?
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        But for a submarine (whose survival lies in stealth) this will be enough as the last argument in case of detection and threat of an attack

                        Quote: Ka-52
                        it is only on your subjective and superficial view. At least this is a means against PLO helicopters.

                        Quote: Ka-52
                        on PLO helicopters installation of ADBL is not possible... And put them on PLO planes unlikely to be. Like active means of self-defense.

                        Quote: Ka-52
                        And the submarine is not capable of trying to fight off anti-aircraft weapons with the help of the air defense system.

                        Quote: Ka-52
                        And the submarine will not be able to fight off because in order to repel an air attack, the submarine will have to surface. At least to periscope depth.
                        You don't have to be a thinker to see contradictions.


                        Quote: Ka-52
                        And the submarine will not be able to fight off because in order to repel an air attack, the submarine will have to surface. At least to periscope depth. That is, to lose in the vicinity of the enemy your main trump card is secrecy.
                        Here is the author of the article and emphasizes the lack of secrecy against the BPA PLO, please take a closer look.

                        Quote: Ka-52
                        And in case of a serious threat, the enemy's helicopters and anti-aircraft missile planes will simply direct the forces with much greater power to the submarine. In tch and surface ships.
                        Missile launches of air defense systems with a non-zero probability of shooting down - how much more serious? And if with helicopters this is an argument, albeit not very strong, then a shot down plane can only "mei day" blather. Let me remind you that ASROK has a range of about 30 km. And PLO planes do not circle over the ships, they have not the same tasks.
                      2. 0
                        4 February 2021 08: 30
                        If a measure reduces the likelihood of destruction, then it is applied, and the PLO aircraft will be obliged to apply it.

                        accepted as argument
                        You don't have to be a thinker to see contradictions.

                        Well, I meant it as a means of salvation or "the last argument". When the submarine is threatened with destruction, then there are no options. But in terms of implementation, this tool is too dubious. It will more resemble a Makarov pistol as an officer's personal weapon - you cannot kill an enemy, but enough to shoot yourself request
                  2. +2
                    4 February 2021 08: 25
                    Quote: Ka-52
                    IMHO all this is like a goat's 5th leg. Because he will not save from the detection of submarines. And the submarine is not able to try to fight off the air defense systems with the help of the air defense missile system. They will simply bring stronger funds to the area and they will kill the hog sooner or later.


                    Why then? How many PLO aircraft can they send? Another 1-2-3? Why not shoot them down too? When will other forces - PL and NK - be able to pull themselves up? What if this is the goal - to draw forces away from another area?
                    1. +3
                      4 February 2021 08: 34
                      Why then? How many PLO aircraft can they send?

                      Well, if this is patrolling by aircraft of the water area, then perhaps they are right. And if it's PLO AUG? There, reconnaissance is at a distance of 150-180 km from the AUG, which will not give a chance to fight off the submarine on the surface.
                      1. +2
                        4 February 2021 08: 37
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        Why then? How many PLO aircraft can they send?

                        Well, if this is patrolling by aircraft of the water area, then perhaps they are right. And if it's PLO AUG? There, reconnaissance is at a distance of 150-180 km from the AUG, which will not give a chance to fight off the submarine on the surface.


                        And we do not need the surface, we need to ensure the operation of the air defense system from the periscope depth.

                        And by the way, what is the difference between PLO AUG 150-180 kilometers from it? If there is no NK or submarine within 50 kilometers, then this is the same aviation as when patrolling the water area.
                      2. 0
                        4 February 2021 08: 57
                        And we do not need the surface, we need to ensure the operation of the air defense system from the periscope depth

                        Well, it's all the same ascent to periscope depth with the withdrawal of the superstructure with the antenna post to the surface position. How else to monitor airspace using radar? And this position of the submarine does not make it too difficult to detect in comparison with the surface position.
                        And by the way, what is the difference between PLO AUG 150-180 kilometers from it? If there is no NK or submarine within 50 kilometers, then this is the same aviation as when patrolling the water area.

                        the pair on duty will cover the distance of 150m in 15 minutes. During this time, the PL will have little time to do
                      3. 0
                        4 February 2021 09: 10
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        And we do not need the surface, we need to ensure the operation of the air defense system from the periscope depth

                        Well, it's all the same ascent to periscope depth with the withdrawal of the superstructure with the antenna post to the surface position. How else to monitor airspace using radar? And this position of the submarine does not make it too difficult to detect in comparison with the surface position.


                        There are two options here, I considered a submarine with a radar in the articles about the atomic multifunctional submarine (AMFPK). This is, in fact, a "pop-up destroyer", and to attack it with a pair of aircraft on duty is suicide, for its attack it is necessary to organize a complex air raid.

                        If we are talking about the air defense system as a means of self-defense of the ISSAP, then the radar will not be there until they are made compact enough. Although, again, if you look at the characteristics of the "Zhuk-AM" radar, they are quite satisfactory for "underwater" air defense systems, incl. in size. Indeed, on the periscope there can only be an AFAR canvas, and everything else is inside the submarine.

                        Quote: Ka-52
                        And by the way, what is the difference between PLO AUG 150-180 kilometers from it? If there is no NK or submarine within 50 kilometers, then this is the same aviation as when patrolling the water area.

                        the pair on duty will cover the distance of 150m in 15 minutes. During this time, the PL will have little time to do


                        Couple on duty what? There are no PLO aircraft on aircraft carriers. If the AUG is guarded by 2-4 Poseidons, and one was shot down, then the other should fly not 150, but 500-1000 kilometers, since they cover the AUG from different directions. And this is 30-60 minutes.
                        During this time, the submarine at a low-noise course of 20 knots will leave for 20-40 kilometers, i.e. circle with a diameter of 40-80 kilometers. And PLO planes have to look for it again. And take into account that they can also be knocked down.

                        And if these are helicopters, then 150 kilometers for them is also 40-60 minutes.
                      4. +1
                        4 February 2021 09: 24
                        Indeed, on the periscope there can only be an AFAR canvas, and everything else is inside the submarine.

                        dear Andrey, the radar surface with PPM is only 1/3 of the weight and size values. The weight is not particularly funny there. A canvas of 0,7 by 0,7 will weigh 200 kg. What dimensions of a periscope should be in order to shove such a weight around here?
                        There are no PLO aircraft on aircraft carriers.

                        and who are they now performing the role of Vikings?
                      5. 0
                        4 February 2021 09: 32
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        Indeed, on the periscope there can only be an AFAR canvas, and everything else is inside the submarine.

                        dear Andrey, the radar surface with PPM is only 1/3 of the weight and size values. The weight is not particularly funny there. A canvas of 0,7 by 0,7 will weigh 200 kg. What dimensions of a periscope should be in order to shove such a weight around here?


                        Zhuk-A - whole 280 kg, Zhuk-AE 220 kg. It is unlikely that the mass of the web is more than half of the entire radar, and this is 110-140 kilograms - conditionally 2-3 bags of sugar. Is it possible to modify the periscope of a submarine the size of a five-story building so that it can withstand an additional 100-150 kilograms? How much does the periscope and its top weigh now?
                      6. 0
                        4 February 2021 09: 56
                        It is unlikely that the mass of the web is more than half of the entire radar station, which is 110-140 kilograms

                        so how do you separate the cooling system (which takes up a significant portion of this weight) from the canvas?
                        How much does the periscope and its top weigh now?

                        if we take the Soviet ones, then 400-550kg. modern don't know
                      7. 0
                        4 February 2021 10: 02
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        It is unlikely that the mass of the web is more than half of the entire radar station, which is 110-140 kilograms

                        so how do you separate the cooling system (which takes up a significant portion of this weight) from the canvas?


                        How much easier is it to cool the radar with water? The tube is a coil-heat exchanger, and the pump is in a submarine housing.
                      8. 0
                        4 February 2021 10: 12
                        How much easier is it to cool the radar with water? The tube is a coil-heat exchanger, and the pump is in a submarine housing.

                        This is how the cooler grilles carry the weight. Free air cooling was abandoned long ago as ineffective. As far as I remember, the cooling system there is quite complex, since the PPM is not very small itself, so also the distance between them cannot be more than 0,6 wavelength. I don't remember the details, but the difficulty of removing heat was serious.
                      9. 0
                        4 February 2021 10: 16
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        How much easier is it to cool the radar with water? The tube is a coil-heat exchanger, and the pump is in a submarine housing.

                        This is how the cooler grilles carry the weight. Free air cooling was abandoned long ago as ineffective. As far as I remember, the cooling system there is quite complex, since the PPM is not very small itself, so also the distance between them cannot be more than 0,6 wavelength. I don't remember the details, but the difficulty of removing heat was serious.


                        Perhaps, but there is one more nuance. We don’t need to spend hours working on scanning, like the radar station of an aircraft. The specifics of the battlefield will require operation intervals of less than one minute, and cooling requirements can be reduced.

                        Another question, I do not know how on a submarine with technical environments, i.e. is nitrogen used somewhere? Maybe they can be cooled?

                        But most likely there is no point in complicating it, it is better to drive distilled water along the circuit, cooling it with seawater.
                      10. 0
                        4 February 2021 10: 26
                        Perhaps, but there is one more nuance. We don’t need to spend hours working on scanning, like the radar station of an aircraft.

                        heat release does not depend on the operating time, but on the power of the source.
                        But most likely there is no point in complicating it, it is better to drive distilled water along the circuit, cooling it with seawater.

                        I think that the heat transfer from water is much less than that of alcohol. Then it's better for them to cool lol Moremans will have their own version of the sword laughing
                      11. +1
                        4 February 2021 15: 33
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        I think that the heat transfer from water is much less than that of alcohol. Then it's better for them to cool it lol Moremans will have their own version of the sword laughing

                        Heat transfer with the same volume of the coolant will be characterized by the heat capacity of the substance, for water it is maximum among all liquids, and indeed all substances in general.
                      12. 0
                        7 February 2021 17: 52
                        Quote: AVM
                        Another question, I do not know how on a submarine with technical environments, i.e. is nitrogen used somewhere? Maybe they can be cooled?

                        Cooling with gases is a hopeless occupation, too low heat capacity and thermal conductivity. Only liquid. Of these, the best, oddly enough, is water.
                      13. 0
                        7 February 2021 17: 45
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        This is how the cooler grilles carry the weight

                        But what if the AFAR is made towed, like a raft? Refrigerated
                        there will be no problems.
                        I still think that OLS and missiles with IR homing, but with a vertical launch, will be quite enough. The range is short, but then the patrolman will definitely not dodge.
                      14. 0
                        4 February 2021 11: 08
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        and who are they now performing the role of Vikings?

                        Basic aviation operating in the area of ​​operation of the AUG. Only helicopters remained on the AV itself and the ASW aircraft escort.
                  3. +2
                    4 February 2021 19: 10
                    [quote = Ka-52] And they are unlikely to be installed on PLO aircraft. As well as active means of self-defense. / quote]
                    You are mistaken.
                    The AN / ALE-8 systems are already being installed on the Boeing P-55 Poseidon. six months later, the first combat tests.
                    Admission to service on all aircraft is expected in the first quarter of 2021.
    2. 0
      4 February 2021 08: 21
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The output optics of the laser can be placed on the periscope, during its operation there is no noise and vibration, there are no sounds of opening mines, launching missiles.
      Even without taking into account the power of the laser, do not forget about the output dimensions of the combat optics and the guidance drive of these optics, a periscope the size of a motorboat will not work? Unscientific fiction.


      This is not my invention:
      https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/02/09/the-navy-will-arm-attack-submarines-with-high-energy-lasers/?sh=2c8526f93779

      In principle, it may not be so big (here 150 kilowatts):


      The size of the optics is highly dependent on the required range. If we need to shoot not 200-500 kilometers, but 20-50, then the dimensions can be reduced. + new technologies, flat lenses made of metamaterials.

      Perhaps the United States will place the laser just below the observation devices, so as not to unmask the entire periscope - it is necessary, it has put forward only the electronic reconnaissance antenna, higher - optics, even higher - laser optics.

      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Well, by itself, the SAM is good, but without a radar there is little sense in them, and it is a pleasure to direct missiles to the radar on the surface of the sea.


      Air defense systems without radar can function perfectly, but the types of targets, their range and the number of targets will be limited.

      It is no pleasure to direct anti-radar missiles at the submarine radar, because in a minute she can remove it under the water ...
      1. 0
        4 February 2021 08: 32
        All that is above is controversial, in moderation. ))
        But this is controversial beyond measure:
        Quote: AVM
        It is no pleasure to direct anti-radar missiles at the submarine radar, because in a minute she can remove it under the water ...
        It is not necessary to send a PR-rocket to the source, you can also throw an ASROK bearing (two bearings) or an analogue.
        1. 0
          4 February 2021 08: 39
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          All that is above is controversial, in moderation. ))
          But this is controversial beyond measure:
          Quote: AVM
          It is no pleasure to direct anti-radar missiles at the submarine radar, because in a minute she can remove it under the water ...
          It is not necessary to send a PR-rocket to the source, you can also throw an ASROK bearing (two bearings) or an analogue.


          If the ship is nearby, then you can. ASROK range up to 50 kilometers. It is very difficult to increase it - it will be a completely different weapon, the size of the "Granit" anti-ship missile system, with the corresponding UVP and the size of the ships.
          1. 0
            4 February 2021 08: 45
            Quote: AVM
            If the ship is nearby, then you can. ASROK range up to 50 kilometers

            I agree, especially if there are no analogs of ASROCs. But I also found an argument against it: weapon-based escort UAVs are already being worked out with might and main for fighters, it is unlikely that it will be difficult to build something like that for an ASWU. But in general I am not against air defense systems on the nuclear submarine.
    3. +1
      4 February 2021 15: 49
      Well, of course, the air defense system is good, but without a radar they make little sense

      this is how the ROFARs will begin to install and integrate into the nuclear submarine corps, and then the missiles can be shoved
      BUT (!) - this will already be a completely different warship, albeit underwater
      1. 0
        5 February 2021 11: 28
        Quote: Romario_Argo
        Well, of course, the air defense system is good, but without a radar they make little sense

        this is how the ROFARs will begin to install and integrate into the nuclear submarine corps, and then the missiles can be shoved
        BUT (!) - this will already be a completely different warship, albeit underwater


        Isn't it?
        https://topwar.ru/171181-na-granice-dvuh-sred-nyrjajuschij-nadvodnyj-korabl-2025-koncept-i-taktika-primenenija.html
  3. 0
    4 February 2021 06: 09
    Cool but not wide and powerful enough.
    "Transformation into a cosmic death star inevitable evolution of the subfloor"
    Here is a detailed article on such a topic would inevitably attract interest! And then some kind of air defense system is small and completely weak.
  4. +6
    4 February 2021 06: 13
    SAM on a submarine ....

    1. 0
      4 February 2021 07: 21
      In order to clarify the perplexed reader, you can cite 2 relevant phrases here: 1. "Fedot, but not that one!"; 2. "The submarine is not rubber!" ... I am not against the "SAM on the submarine" wabche! "Underwater" air defense may be appropriate as a weapon of self-defense, as a means of last chance! That is, when the submarine is discovered and the chances of breaking away from the pursuit, there is not enough of the immediate prospect of being destroyed! Such an air defense system should not be among the "primary" weapons and should not take up much space ... By analogy with the "land" complexes, these should be short-range air defense systems or, "at worst," short-range ... offers the Author, and more than once? To turn strategic missile submarines into "hunters" for "Poseidons" ... NATO naval (and not only ...) fighters! "Today", he is still modest in his desires! If my memory serves me, somehow in previous publications, the Author agreed to install the S-500 on submarines! Well, if you imagine what could actually make up the S-500 system; then the S-500 in the future may be able to be crammed into a once-strategic underwater vehicle (!); But then there will be no place for strategic SLBMs or for the CD! It will be an underwater SAM S-500! Then, for sure, NATO anti-submarine aircraft will not chase Russian submarines! What for? If they then do not pose a real threat to the "territorial integrity" of the United States? And looking for adventure on your fuselage is more expensive!
      Although ... I criticized the Author, but I myself think: maybe there is something in this? Suddenly something will come of it and Russia will have a submarine missile defense system as opposed to the American "Aegis" on surface ships (destroyers)! Will the regular adversaries offend Russia ... will launch "trident" and "minuteman" ...! And then ... off the coast of America, submarine S-500s surface and the "strategic forces of containment" begin to tilt them! After all, as you know, "ballistics" is easier to beat on takeoff! So, I take my negative address to the Author from the VO page and go to the Andryushenka Mitrofanov fan club! fellow
      1. +2
        4 February 2021 09: 09
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        Well, if you imagine what could really make up the S-500 system

        The USA is planning to do so. Place universal SM-6 on multipurpose submarines. These missiles can already work against air targets and sea targets. The appearance of air defense systems on submarines of NATO countries and South Korea with Japan is only a matter of time. Maybe already.
        1. 0
          4 February 2021 10: 05
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Well, if you imagine what could really make up the S-500 system

          The USA is planning to do so. Place universal SM-6 on multipurpose submarines. These missiles can already work against air targets and sea targets. The appearance of air defense systems on submarines of NATO countries and South Korea with Japan is only a matter of time. Maybe already.


          No link to the source of information? I could not find anything on this topic.
          1. +1
            4 February 2021 10: 27
            There is no official information about this program, there are assumptions. Closer to 23, it will become clearer, then the tests of the new shipborne and ground version of the SM-6 will end.
            https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21414/what-supersonic-anti-ship-missile-did-china-hack-from-the-u-s-navy
  5. +4
    4 February 2021 06: 26
    And there is no need to fence anything - an inexpensive buoy with a rocket. Airplanes are flying - hello to Kibalchish! You can "sow" a clearing both from a boat and from an airplane, then not a single infection will stick there.
    1. 0
      4 February 2021 07: 23
      It's a good idea, I wanted to voice the same, but I think let me take a look, I was suddenly late. And he was definitely late. Plusy to you!
      1. 0
        4 February 2021 09: 43
        Quote: mark1
        And definitely late

        A torpedo mine, a missile mine - all of this from the distant past, but still in service.
        1. 0
          4 February 2021 09: 53
          About the missile mine in service - I missed something in my life (there were proposals for air defense mines, but it seems like that's all).
          It's just that the buoy-air defense system is the most sensible thing that can be offered for boat air defense while maintaining the principle of stealth. No radar is needed, an IR head or passive guidance to an EM radiation source is enough.
          1. 0
            4 February 2021 10: 08
            A missile mine is the same as a torpedo mine, only instead of a torpedo there is something like "Shkval", only smaller. Back in the eighties it was exactly like that, PMR -1, 2, in my opinion, was studied in childhood.
            1. 0
              4 February 2021 10: 13
              Well, this is from another opera - anti-ship.
              1. 0
                4 February 2021 10: 15
                Quote: mark1
                Well, this is from another opera - anti-ship.

                Anti-submarine, although the boat is the same ship. Simply, as the saying goes, "ideas fly in the air," or rather swim under water.
    2. +1
      4 February 2021 08: 43
      Each buoy should have, in addition to the missile, its own surveillance and tracking radars, and a target acquisition and launch control system. And the rocket is not cheap pleasure.
      Such a buoy will not be cheap, but fabulously expensive, and even disposable.
      You sowed your clearing - and the enemy flew to another clearing
      You don't have endless buoys to seed the ocean, do you?
      1. +1
        4 February 2021 09: 47
        Quote: Avior
        Each buoy should have, in addition to the missile, its own surveillance and tracking radars, and a target acquisition and launch control system. And the rocket is not cheap pleasure.
        Such a buoy will not be cheap, but fabulously expensive, and even disposable.
        You sowed your clearing - and the enemy flew to another clearing
        You don't have endless buoys to seed the ocean, do you?

        None of this is just not necessary. Suffice it to be a primitive RTR station, a slide-start towards the target or a survey "circle", and a thermal seeker. Everything is cheap and cheerful. And let the enemy fly over "another glade", who will forbid him? The main thing is that it would not be above our clearing.
        1. 0
          4 February 2021 09: 54
          The primitive station ptr does not determine the range and height of the radiation source. and the type too, so you need not primitive. and still need radar too.
          and you will not leave the sown field? then the enemy's search circle is greatly narrowed, it is convenient
          1. 0
            4 February 2021 10: 00
            Quote: Avior
            The primitive station ptr does not determine the range and height of the radiation source. and the type too, so you need not primitive. and still need radar too.
            and you will not leave the sown field? then the enemy's search circle is greatly narrowed, it is convenient

            Tell us about your or someone else's equipment. The parameters you listed are absolutely unnecessary. Strangers do not walk in the minefield: they got caught.
            1. +1
              4 February 2021 10: 46
              I did not write about friend or foe, but to launch a rocket you need to know the range to the target, altitude and speed, you need to determine whether the target is in the missile's engagement zone or not.
              in any case, if such buoys appear, from the planes in the search area there will first be launches of cheap UAVs with primitive emitters-simulators
              and the area will be cleared of mines and make sure that the boat is here for sure, they will call a couple more planes to quickly find the boat
              1. 0
                4 February 2021 10: 55
                The guys answered your question in detail below.
      2. +1
        4 February 2021 10: 17
        A long time ago (in the 80s) I read about land anti-helicopter mines. The flight was determined by sound. I think that the plane will make noise at 30 meters too. So it is quite possible to build something similar for the submarine. Passive acoustic detection of aircraft in the zone and a missile with IR seeker from MANPADS ... "Sowing a clearing" will not work thickly, but the very possibility of running into such a mine will dramatically complicate the life of the pilots.
        PS View from the sofa ... smile
        1. +1
          5 February 2021 11: 14
          Quote: dzvero
          the very possibility of running into such a mine will dramatically complicate the life of the pilots.

          It is a pity that the Ford SIAM project has been forgotten! This project is "in tune" with this theme! I already posted information on SIAM on this page, but it was removed for some reason, not entirely adequate! fool Now I am citing a similar information from another source and I assure the "chaste" moderator that this is not a "whole" article, but only a part of it! Moreover (!) ... this is a necessary informational part!
          In the late 70s, DARPA initiated a program to create the so-called. "Anti-aircraft mines" - fully autonomous batteries of short-range anti-aircraft missiles, which could function for a long time without maintenance and outside control. Such "mines", according to the developers, could be used to create air defense areas in hard-to-reach areas (for example, in the northern provinces of Canada or in the Arctic ice), where the deployment and maintenance of traditional air defense systems would be unnecessarily expensive. The possibility of "active mine laying" was also considered - the placement of autonomous missile batteries on enemy territory with the help of bombers, in order to complicate the actions of enemy aviation at its air bases.

          According to the project, it was supposed to create a small solid-propellant rocket, which will be put into position in a transport container. Having detected the enemy aircraft with its passive seeker, the rocket had to start the engine and attack the aircraft.


          The US Navy also became interested in the project, considering the possibility of using missiles for self-defense of submarines. It was assumed that a submarine located in the area of ​​operation of enemy anti-submarine aircraft would be able to detect an approaching aircraft or helicopter by vibrations in the water column and send a floating buoy with SIAM to the surface. Unlike other projects involving the launch of anti-aircraft missiles from the submarine itself, the idea of ​​using a pop-up buoy from SIAM did not unmask the submarine itself, since the buoy floated up independently and could be equipped with a delay mechanism.
          The information in this fragment is consonant with the idea expressed by some comrades on this page VO ...
          1. +1
            5 February 2021 11: 21
            Thanks! I didn't know about SIAM; maybe in that material it was about her, but it was forgotten over the years ... sad Most likely, if the submarines will be equipped with air defense systems, then something similar.
            1. +1
              5 February 2021 11: 44
              Quote: dzvero
              Most likely, if the submarines will be equipped with air defense systems, then something similar.

              At all and not necessarily such "zur-mines" should be taken on board by the "strategic" submarine itself ... , submarines ... From time to time, projects of underwater tankers, dry cargo vessels "surface" ... So much for a "saboteur" submarine disguised as "civilian"! wink
              1. +1
                5 February 2021 12: 12
                Ready-to-use material for unleashing the imagination of couch warriors like me smile ... "sow" the route for the advancement of "strategists", areas of their patrol, create false areas for spraying anti-submarine forces, "anti-aircraft mining" of probable zones of action of the AUG ...
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. +1
        4 February 2021 10: 50
        You see! At the present stage, all the more, nothing is impossible.
        1. +1
          4 February 2021 11: 12
          it died out a long time ago, since it turned out to be practically impossible to apply
          and this is not an automatic buoy, but a launcher from a submarine.
      2. 0
        4 February 2021 10: 59
        Ford SIAM
        http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/siam.html
  6. +2
    4 February 2021 07: 47
    Why is the air defense system on the submarine still not implemented, because the United States is quite capable of this task?

    Because the author was poorly prepared. The French have long deployed air defense systems on their nuclear submarines.
    https://topwar.ru/21001-franciya-sozdaet-zrk-dlya-podvodnyh-lodok.html
    1. +2
      4 February 2021 08: 34
      Quote: professor
      Why is the air defense system on the submarine still not implemented, because the United States is quite capable of this task?

      Because the author was poorly prepared. The French have long deployed air defense systems on their nuclear submarines.
      https://topwar.ru/21001-franciya-sozdaet-zrk-dlya-podvodnyh-lodok.html


      The author wrote about him in one or several articles on this topic, links to which are in the text. And in this article there is a mention:
      The very idea of ​​equipping submarines with air defense systems is not new. In particular, the French Navy conducted active research in this direction.


      The PMSM French complex is too weak to pose a serious threat to ASW aviation.
  7. +2
    4 February 2021 09: 10
    It is hard to believe in the active use of air defense systems on a submarine
    1 radar on a periscope - small, low above the water, and therefore short range. Any RTR station on a UAV or an airplane will detect such a submarine - a suicide bomber very from afar.
    2 ols a low-flying aircraft will see from a short range. The raised periscope of the airborne radar of the aircraft will see further
    3 a boat sailing at periscope depth is vulnerable to detection and destruction. If you use an air defense system, you need to completely revise the concept of using submarines. Moreover, it may not appear a plane, but an NK or another submarine.
    4. If such systems appear, then the means will change. UAVs and autonomous flying traps based on the UAV will be massively used. They will be suspended on the plane and will be launched into the search area to begin with. Shoot at him - unmask the boat completely. New weapons will also appear - specialized against submarines at periscope depth.
    5. The above suggests that full-fledged air defense systems on a boat make the boat vulnerable and deprive the main advantage of stealth.
    6 what pairs are possible on the boat? For example, on the basis of modern explosive missiles with IR matrix guidance and the ability to capture a target after launch.
    If the boat unambiguously determines the aircraft's attack - and this is clear from the operation of active buoys directly near the boat, a sign that they are making the last clarification before the strike - it will be possible to use such a missile with a target search algorithm after leaving the water. It is quite possible to use such a rocket from a relatively great depth, without being substituted by a periscope. But you need to understand that this is a complete unmasking of the boat.
    7, on the other hand, the use of such missiles does not require any changes in the design of the boat or in the concept of its use. Just from the TA will be loaded with a pair of four missiles
    1. +2
      4 February 2021 09: 55
      Quote: Avior
      It is hard to believe in the active use of air defense systems on a submarine
      1 radar on a periscope - small, low above the water, and therefore short range.


      If we get to the radar, then even something like Zhuk-A / AE, which weighs 220 kilograms (on a submarine, half of the mass, or even more, can be removed into the submarine's hull, leaving only the PPM canvas "above"), sees fighter with EPR 5m2 for 130 kilometers in the front hemisphere and 60 in the rear. What is the EPR of Poseidon? 10-15 m2? For our tasks (self-defense), a 2 times shorter range is sufficient, i.e. you can reduce the number of PPM, and hence the radar.

      Quote: Avior
      Any RTR station on a UAV or an airplane will detect such a submarine - a suicide bomber very from afar.


      If the radar will operate in LPI mode, then not any. Moreover
      "SAM is not a submarine is not a duty, it is an opportunity"
      The commander decides when to use it. Arrange an ambush yourself or wait for torpedoes to fall into the water.

      Quote: Avior
      2 ols a low-flying aircraft will see from a short range.


      Fool as P-8? Kilometers from 30 for sure, but we basically don't need more.

      Quote: Avior
      The raised periscope of the airborne radar of the aircraft will see further.


      If we have already been attacked, then this is not so critical. And the periscopes are also assembled using stealth technologies.

      In general, on this topic, I often notice an interesting contradiction - either an aircraft carrier or a destroyer cannot be found, or a periscope raised for 15-30 seconds (which is quite enough to obtain target designation of an air defense missile system) will instantly be detected.

      Quote: Avior
      3 a boat sailing at periscope depth is vulnerable to detection and destruction. If you use an air defense system, you need to completely revise the concept of using submarines.


      Quote: Avior
      Apparently, this is where it goes, maybe I misunderstand something, but for low-frequency GAS, the temperature jump layer no longer plays a role, and in the near-surface layer their efficiency decreases.


      Quote: Avior
      Moreover, it may not appear a plane, but an NK or another submarine.


      Maybe, but this probability is lower, and ships and submarines can be fought with torpedoes and anti-ship missiles, but there is still nothing with ASW aircraft.

      Quote: Avior
      4. If such systems appear, then the means will change.


      This is what we need, to ensure that the PLO aircraft looks like this:

      And it cost accordingly, and 15 pieces could buy the USA.

      Quote: Avior
      UAVs and autonomous flying traps based on the UAV will be massively used. They will be suspended on the plane and will be launched into the search area to begin with. Shoot at him - unmask the boat completely.


      Why shoot them? They will not perform the PLO functions? Or they will cost the same as an PLO aircraft (well, not much cheaper). A submarine with an air defense system will not be on duty with a raised radar? Let them fly to themselves.

      Quote: Avior
      New weapons will also appear - specialized against pl at periscope depth.

      So the submarine can go to the depth, no one forbids. And then what is the use of these specialized tools?

      Quote: Avior
      5. The above suggests that full-fledged air defense systems on a boat make the boat vulnerable and deprive the main advantage of stealth.


      Do not deprive. Again, the use of an air defense system is not an obligation, but an opportunity.

      Quote: Avior
      6 what pairs are possible on the boat? For example, on the basis of modern explosive missiles with IR matrix guidance and the ability to capture a target after launch.
      If the boat unambiguously determines the aircraft's attack - and this is clear from the operation of active buoys directly near the boat, a sign that they are making the last clarification before the strike - it will be possible to use such a missile with a target search algorithm after leaving the water. It is quite possible to use such a rocket from a relatively great depth, without being substituted by a periscope. But you need to understand that this is a complete unmasking of the boat.


      So I'm talking about this, only as an example, not V-V missiles, but air defense missile systems, but also with active seeker and capture after launch. By the way, they are considered as the basis for V-V missiles. But there can also be solutions on the basis of RVV-SD / MD.

      Quote: Avior
      7, on the other hand, the use of such missiles does not require any changes in the design of the boat or in the concept of its use. Just from the TA will be loaded with a pair of four missiles


      The primary control center will still be required, otherwise the probability of capturing the target will be very small.
      1. +1
        4 February 2021 10: 36
        If we get to the radar, then even something like Zhuk-A / AE, which weighs 220 kilograms (on a submarine, half of the mass, or even more, can be removed into the submarine's hull, leaving only the PPM canvas "above"), sees fighter with EPR 5m2 for 130 kilometers in the front hemisphere and 60 in the rear. What is the EPR of Poseidon? 10-15 m2? For our tasks (self-defense), a 2 times shorter range is sufficient, i.e. you can reduce the number of PPM, and hence the radar.

        an RTR reconnaissance aircraft will detect the operation of this radar in 300-400 kilometers. not looking for you, but they will fly in to drown you. there will be no need to search, and it is so clear who and where.
        Will you deploy the radar with a submarine hull?
        If the radar will operate in LPI mode, then not any. Moreover
        "SAM is not a submarine is not a duty, it is an opportunity"
        The commander decides when to use it. Arrange an ambush yourself or wait for torpedoes to fall into the water.

        and the enemy will not have "any", such an enemy that he has the majority of high-level weapons. And in Russia, by the way, is there a LPIay mode on the radar? on what?
        Fool as P-8? Kilometers from 30 for sure, but we basically don't need more.

        from 30 radars of an aircraft or helicopter will already determine the raised periscope and or mast
        If we have already been attacked, then this is not so critical. And the periscopes are also assembled using stealth technologies.

        In general, on this topic, I often notice an interesting contradiction - either an aircraft carrier or a destroyer cannot be found, or a periscope raised for 15-30 seconds (which is quite enough to obtain target designation of an air defense missile system) will instantly be detected.

        and radars of PLO facilities are specially trained to search for periscopes by the method of statistical signal extraction.
        and about 30 seconds, in addition to target designation, detection is also needed first. that is, hang around constantly. and 30 seconds is not enough even for target designation. you need to raise the periscope, turn on the radar, find the target, classify.
        Maybe, but this probability is lower, and ships and submarines can be fought with torpedoes and anti-ship missiles, but there is still nothing with ASW aircraft.

        for a large surface ship, a single missile defense system does not pose a great threat. but for a submarine knowingly located at periscope depth, an attack from the crust at the location of the periscope detection is sufficient. You don't think that when the missile systems really spread, no one will guess when the weapon against the submarine is at periscope depth?
        and if the existing air defense system is not used, then this is ballast on the boat, which worsens its performance.
        So I'm talking about this, only as an example, not V-V missiles, but air defense missile systems, but also with active seeker and capture after launch. By the way, they are considered as the basis for V-V missiles. But there can also be solutions on the basis of RVV-SD / MD.

        the target engagement angle of the radar gsn is low, in this respect the matrix gsn of short-range missiles is better.
        if you do the primary tsu, it means to unmask the boat
        if you try to do it after signs of attack - put the boat at a disadvantage
        1. 0
          4 February 2021 11: 06
          Quote: Avior
          If we get to the radar station ...

          an RTR reconnaissance aircraft will detect the operation of this radar in 300-400 kilometers. not looking for you, but they will fly in to drown you. there will be no need to search, and it is so clear who and where.

          The radar can operate for 15-30-60 seconds, after which the submarine will launch missiles at all targets in the affected area (2-4 missiles per target), remove the periscope and go under water.
          Even if the RTR aircraft accurately tracks it at such a distance and the PLO aircraft immediately fly to "sink" the submarine, then by that moment it will be ten kilometers from the place of the alleged detection by the RTR aircraft.

          Quote: Avior
          Will you deploy the radar with a submarine hull?

          Does the periscope rotate? He makes a circular survey of the surface in a few seconds. Combined with electronic AFAR scanning, this is sufficient.

          Quote: Avior
          If the radar will operate in LPI mode, then not any.

          and the enemy will not have "any", such an enemy that he has most of the high-level weapons.

          Not any and not cheap. Either there are many UAVs with cheap RTR facilities that do not see LPI, or few UAVs with expensive RTR facilities.

          Quote: Avior
          And in Russia, by the way, is there a LPIay mode on the radar? on what?

          On those with AFAR, incl. the mentioned Beetle-A.

          Quote: Avior
          Fool as P-8? Kilometers from 30 for sure, but we basically don't need more.

          from 30 radars of an aircraft or helicopter will already determine the raised periscope and or mast

          Well, they will have a little time - to make a decision to try to dump or to say goodbye to each other right away. After all, they need to turn around and fly up to the submarine 5-10 km to drop torpedoes, and the missile defense system flies much faster.

          Quote: Avior
          If we have already been attacked, then this is not so critical. And the periscopes are also assembled using stealth technologies.

          and radars of PLO facilities are specially trained to search for periscopes by the method of statistical signal extraction.

          But the range still decreases, the probability of detection decreases, otherwise no one would have been doing this.

          Quote: Avior
          and about 30 seconds, in addition to target designation, detection is also needed first. that is, hang around constantly. and 30 seconds is not enough even for target designation. you need to raise the periscope, turn on the radar, find the target, classify.

          Survey of the surface up to 5 seconds, clarification of coordinates for detected targets for another 5-10 seconds, in principle everything. When everything is automated, it will be so. If the air defense systems will work slower, then what kind of interception of the WTO can be generally talked about, especially for supersonic and hypersonic targets.

          The task is simplified by the fact that we don’t need to define ours or foes, ASW aircraft are flying too “specific” to be mistaken.

          Quote: Avior
          for a large surface ship, a single missile defense system does not pose a great threat. but for a submarine knowingly located at periscope depth, an attack from the crust at the location of the periscope detection is sufficient.

          There are few ships, they go slowly, the submarine can fight them. The anti-ship missile does not have to be single - 6-8 Onyxes or Calibers will most likely “cut” a single ship.

          Quote: Avior
          You don't think that when the missile systems really spread, no one will guess when the weapon against the submarine is at periscope depth?

          I don't think so, since the submarine can attack both from the depth and from the near-surface layer. The ship is not rubber to carry non-universal RTs. And they will not become much more effective - as before, it will be a "torpedo in a rocket".

          and if the existing air defense system is not used, then this is ballast on the boat, which worsens its performance.

          Without radar, the entire air defense system is a set of equipment the size of two or three refrigerators, I think they will not greatly burden the submarine and will not affect the performance characteristics. All your arguments - will make the UAV PLO, UAV RTR speak in favor of the air defense system, since the enemy will invest much more in the PLO than we do in the air defense system. It will take 5-10-25 years until sufficient quantities are developed and purchased.

          Quote: Avior
          the target engagement angle of the radar gsn is low, in this respect the matrix gsn of short-range missiles is better.

          Search by turning the body. PMSM SAMs with ARLGSN and IKGSN should be combined, against one type of GOS it is easier to develop countermeasures, for example, laser self-defense systems, which the United States wants to install on almost all aircraft.

          Quote: Avior
          if you do the primary tsu, it means to unmask the boat
          if you try to do it after signs of attack - put the boat at a disadvantage

          It will take 15 seconds between the primary control center and the launch of the SAM, the launch of the SAM itself also unmasks the boat, so there is not much difference.
          1. +1
            4 February 2021 11: 26
            Even if the RTR aircraft accurately tracks it at such a distance and the PLO aircraft immediately fly to "sink" the submarine, then by that moment it will be ten kilometers from the place of the alleged detection by the RTR aircraft.

            not PLO aircraft will arrive, but a harpoon or even a simpler missile defense system from the horizon - for a submarine periscope it will be 10-12 kilometers, make a hill above the periscope and detonate the warhead at a depth of 10-15 meters. that's all.
            Of course, now there are no such missiles, they are not needed, but there will be a missile defense system - in a year there will be a version of the missile defense system with such a gsn and warhead.
            All your arguments - will make the UAV PLO, UAV RTR speak in favor of the SAM, since the enemy will invest much more in the PLO than we do in the SAM.

            they are already there and they are universal
            And they will not become much more effective - as before, it will be a "torpedo in a rocket".

            against a boat, obviously located at periscope depth, such difficulties are not needed.
  8. +1
    4 February 2021 10: 17
    CU through the periscope is utopia. In a threatened period, launch modules equipped with OWN OLS / radars and containing missiles are fired through the TA or TLU. They do not need a missile defense system that can target targets at an altitude of 30 km and a range of 100. The enemy's anti-submarine aircraft operate at much more modest distances and altitudes. Launcher modules are dispersed on their own and in a passive mode they conduct observation (such as RSL, only the other way around). Sound communication with the boat is also possible. Well, then, according to the usual scenario. And yes, Poseidon has never stealth, the level of his physical fields allows such a system to see him earlier than the onboard carrier.
    1. +1
      4 February 2021 13: 02
      Sound communication with the boat - a means of unmasking
  9. 0
    4 February 2021 10: 22
    Quote: Ka-52
    And the submarine will not be able to fight off because in order to repel an air attack, the submarine will have to surface. At least to periscope depth. That is, to lose in the vicinity of the enemy your main trump card is secrecy. And in case of a serious threat, the enemy's helicopters and anti-aircraft missile planes will simply direct the forces with much greater power to the submarine. In tch and surface ships.

    But why? An anti-aircraft missile, being launched without surfacing, a submarine is quite capable of self-locking on a target using an infrared seeker. True at a short distance. And this is against helicopters equipped with sonars and depth charges, that's it. And launch from a submerged position a drop-down container with several missiles of the type used in portable complexes.
    1. +1
      4 February 2021 13: 01
      It is necessary to determine the moment when to launch this rocket
      And there is also a rail on the plane, so you can get into a trap
  10. 0
    4 February 2021 10: 56
    Will they send two more PLO aircraft to replace the downed one?

    If they are based 400-500 kilometers from the battle area, then this is about 30-40 minutes of flight at maximum speed.

    It is possible and faster - if you transfer an PLO aircraft from a neighboring area to the remaining empty area. And into it - from the neighboring one. A reserve to close the area closest to the airbase, which remained empty after such multiple castling.
    1. 0
      4 February 2021 11: 19
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Will they send two more PLO aircraft to replace the downed one?

      If they are based 400-500 kilometers from the battle area, then this is about 30-40 minutes of flight at maximum speed.

      It is possible and faster - if you transfer an PLO aircraft from a neighboring area to the remaining empty area. And into it - from the neighboring one. A reserve to close the area closest to the airbase, which remained empty after such multiple castling.


      And if him too, then ...

      100 P-8 for the entire US Navy. 50 each for the Atlantic and Pacific fleets. 25 active each (after all, they cannot all fly around the clock without maintenance, even if we provide for replaceable crews. 4 for AUG + 1 in reserve. This is if all other tasks are abandoned.
      1. 0
        4 February 2021 11: 22
        For accuracy, military balance for 2019.
  11. +1
    4 February 2021 10: 58
    "With increasing depth, the likelihood of submarine detection by acoustic methods increases due to the compression of the hull, and in particular with the help of low-frequency hydroacoustic stations (GAS). This can lead to the fact that submarines will mainly operate in the near-surface layer of water."

    Bullshit! the author does not know anything about the PL! And about hydrology in particular! It turns out that the compression of the hull increases the hydroacoustic signature! You have to write this!
    1. -1
      4 February 2021 11: 25
      Quote: Paphnutius the Unforgettable
      "With increasing depth, the likelihood of submarine detection by acoustic methods increases due to the compression of the hull, and in particular with the help of low-frequency hydroacoustic stations (GAS). This can lead to the fact that submarines will mainly operate in the near-surface layer of water."

      Bullshit! the author does not know anything about the PL! And about hydrology in particular! It turns out that the compression of the hull increases the hydroacoustic signature! You have to write this!


      https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3458646.html

      Stealth based on the primary hydroacoustic field ("low noise"). It is characterized by the levels of broadband noise (SN) and narrow-band discrete components (DS) of the spectrum, and an extremely important factor today is the preservation of low levels of SN and DS at high speeds and at great depths (with a strong pressure-compressed hull and acoustic protection of submarines).


      Dive deeper? Perhaps - if the depths permit ... In addition, at great depths due to compression, the effectiveness of acoustic protection means sharply decreases and noise increases.
      1. +1
        4 February 2021 11: 50
        Andrei, but Paphnutii made the right remark. You read something, but you understood completely differently.

        “Today, for submarines, shallow depths (once often optimal for stealth) have become a“ problem area. ”“ Diving deeper? ”Perhaps - if depths allow ... In addition, at great depths due to compression, the effectiveness of acoustic protection is sharply reduced and noise increases . "
        1. 0
          4 February 2021 12: 00
          Quote: tasha
          Andrei, but Paphnutii made the right remark. You read something, but you understood completely differently.

          “Today, for submarines, shallow depths (once often optimal for stealth) have become a“ problem area. ”“ Diving deeper? ”Perhaps - if depths allow ... In addition, at great depths due to compression, the effectiveness of acoustic protection is sharply reduced and noise increases . "


          So they became a "problem area" just because of:

          Stealth in "ELF fields" (a conventional name that implies fluctuations in the "column of water" with a submarine) depends on the size of the submarines and their accuracy in maintaining depth and maneuvering in a vertical plane. In view of the controversial nature of the theoretical foundations of "non-traditional means", it is necessary to start not from the "theory" but from the "experiment" (actual results at sea for real goals), however, this issue must be dealt with very seriously, primarily from the practical side - under what conditions can ensure the secrecy of our submarines in the marginal seas with shallow depths.


          What I wrote about in the article. Low-frequency GAS are squeezed out from the depths of the submarines, and on the surface, PLO aviation awaits them. And you have to do something with it.
          1. +1
            4 February 2021 12: 11
            Are you serious ?! In my opinion, you wrote nonsense, and now you are spinning. Read your comment above again ...
            "Low-frequency GAS are squeezing out from the submarine depth" - where does this conclusion come from? Share?
            1. 0
              4 February 2021 12: 50
              Quote: tasha
              Are you serious ?! In my opinion, you wrote nonsense, and now you are spinning. Read your comment above again ...
              "Low-frequency GAS are squeezing out from the submarine depth" - where does this conclusion come from? Share?


              At great depths, rubber tiles that absorb the active light signal are crimped and lose their effectiveness. Therefore, the PL used a thermocline layer, which distorts sound propagation. This does not work for low frequency GASs.

              The conclusions were made incl. based on this article:
              https://topwar.ru/169164-protivolodochnaja-oborona-korabli-protiv-podlodok-chast-1-gidroakustika.html

              Somewhere I saw information that low-frequency HAS are not effective in the near-surface layer, so it is difficult to search for NDTs with them, but I cannot find a link.
              1. +1
                4 February 2021 13: 33
                You read good articles. Here's to you from the same place: "Digital processing dramatically increased the noise immunity of the GAS and made it possible to effectively operate low-frequency sonars in difficult conditions and in areas with shallow depths."
                But the paragraph of your article, about which Pafnutiy wrote to you, turned out to be very unfortunate. And don't argue ... Plus, do not forget that other detection methods are actively developing now, which are most effective at shallow depths.

                You shouldn't have thought about the normal answer to the question - in what situation a submarine can use anti-aircraft weapons. As an amateur in the subject, I can only imagine one case - a nuclear conflict began, the SSBN received an order, you need to surface to the depth of the missile launch, and before that you need to clear the sky ...
                1. 0
                  5 February 2021 11: 25
                  Quote: tasha
                  You read good articles. Here's to you from the same place: "Digital processing dramatically increased the noise immunity of the GAS and made it possible to effectively operate low-frequency sonars in difficult conditions and in areas with shallow depths."


                  PMSM has a slightly different context here. Earlier, the operation of GAW in shallow water bodies was hampered by multiple re-reflection of signals, and this was leveled by digital processing.

                  But the paragraph of your article, about which Pafnutiy wrote to you, turned out to be very unfortunate. And don't argue ... Plus, do not forget that other detection methods are actively developing now, which are most effective at shallow depths.

                  Quote: tasha
                  You shouldn't have thought about the normal answer to the question - in what situation a submarine can use anti-aircraft weapons. As an amateur in the subject, I can only imagine one case - a nuclear conflict began, the SSBN received an order, you need to surface to the depth of the missile launch, and before that you need to clear the sky ...


                  In an article about AMFPK, which considered the installation of a powerful air defense system with a radar on a lifting mast:
                  https://topwar.ru/139618-atomnyy-mnogofunkcionalnyy-podvodnyy-kreyser-asimmetrichnyy-otvet.html
                  https://topwar.ru/143629-atomnyy-mnogofunkcionalnyy-podvodnyy-kreyser-kak-smena-paradigmy.html
                  the following scenarios were considered

                  1. destruction of aircraft carrier strike groups and ship formations;

                  2. the functions of anti-missile defense (ABM) - the destruction of launching ballistic missiles in the initial section of the trajectory in the areas of SSBN patrolling of a potential enemy;

                  3. destruction of anti-submarine aircraft, cover for SSBNs;

                  4. delivery of massive strikes with cruise missiles with conventional or nuclear warheads on the territory of a potential enemy;

                  5. destruction of transport aircraft on flight routes, interruption of supply lines;

                  6. destruction of artificial earth satellites along the optimal trajectory (if such an opportunity is realized by the missiles of the S 500 complex);

                  7. destruction of cruise missiles and UAVs launched on the territory of Russia's allies in regional conflicts.

                  Of these, clause 1 is the most useful - since AMFPK can shoot down an AWACS aircraft, which in turn greatly increases the security of the AUG due to the early detection of anti-aircraft missiles for over-the-horizon targeting of missiles.

                  P.2 - ABM functions "in pursuit". Our submarines carried out, possibly and are carrying out, tracking the US SSBN. But they are covered and protected. An option was considered when the AMPPK does not sink the SSBN, and keeps from it at the maximum possible distance without losing contact, and if it detects a readiness to launch the missiles, it attacks the launching ballistic missiles "in the tail", knocking them down at the initial stage of the trajectory before the warhead disengages.

                  A.3. - of course, the multipurpose submarine with the air defense system mentioned in the article can also.

                  P.4 - functions of a conventional SSGN.

                  P.5 - supply disruptions between the USA and Europe, what German boats did, only now in all environments - convoys, transport workers.

                  P.6 - it is questionable whether it is needed.

                  P.7 is the same as P.2, only against tactical weapons.

                  There was also such a concept: https://topwar.ru/171181-na-granice-dvuh-sred-nyrjajuschij-nadvodnyj-korabl-2025-koncept-i-taktika-primenenija.html But this is no longer a PL, but rather a specific NK ...
                  1. 0
                    6 February 2021 13: 10
                    I have not seen some articles, I read them.
                    Should you create a universal problem solver? Maybe it makes sense to create inexpensive boats - carriers of air defense systems and cruise missiles that will be on duty in the oceans? Even if they are not so secretive. And even cheaper - the specific NDTs you mentioned.
                    I think that the tasks of our modern fleet are to drive the villains-pirates in peacetime, at the beginning of a major war - to shoot rockets at the territory of a potential enemy and prevent his ships from doing the same. Everything...
                    1. 0
                      8 February 2021 09: 58
                      Quote: tasha
                      I have not seen some articles, I read them.
                      Should you create a universal problem solver? Maybe it makes sense to create inexpensive boats - carriers of air defense systems and cruise missiles that will be on duty in the oceans? Even if they are not so secretive. And even cheaper - the specific NDTs you mentioned.


                      Submarine - the carrier of air defense missile systems and CD will not be cheap by default.

                      Quote: tasha
                      I think that the task of our modern fleet is to drive the villains-pirates in peacetime,


                      This is the task of the expeditionary forces. For such a high combat resistance is not needed. PMSM is a helicopter carrier for this the optimal solution.

                      Quote: tasha
                      at the beginning of a major war - to shoot rockets at the territory of a potential enemy and prevent his ships from doing the same. Everything...


                      But here, simple technology is not enough - they will drown before the missiles are launched.
      2. 0
        5 February 2021 10: 39
        It is very bad when amateurs write articles about submarines, and indeed about various types of weapons. Having no idea about the subject. For example, I served for 5 years from 1985 to 1990. on the submarine of project 670M, I have 2 autonomous units. We went to the Mediterranean to chase the 6th US fleet, or rather, we followed the aircraft carriers. Once behind Saratoga, the second time like Nimitz (possibly confusing). When helicopters, or rather, buoys were lowered from them, discovered us, a periodic whistle was heard throughout the hull. We left only by maneuvering at low speed (i.e. less noise) and at maximum depth. The noise grows not from the depth, but from the equipment, the ventilation was turned off (where possible), the latrines were closed, etc. The reactor at lower power, the turbine at low speed and forward - maneuvers and maneuvers. The Suez Canal generally passed under a civilian bulk carrier with "good" diesels to protect against passive surveillance. The most interesting thing is that these were always "random" Soviet ships.
  12. +2
    4 February 2021 11: 49
    In the case of submarines, it is not necessary to put in air defense in order to solve the problem with ASW aviation.
    We must first decide on the tasks of the submarines themselves.
    The PL has several main tasks:
    1. Delivering strategic strikes with ballistic missiles (ie strategists)
    2. Destruction of strike groups of enemy ships or execution of strikes on the coast with non-strategic missiles
    3. Counteraction against enemy submarines, which perform the two previous tasks.

    So to solve problem 1, air defense systems are not needed, tk. the strategists should have air cover, which should not allow PLO aviation to operate.

    But to solve the second task of supporting aviation, there is no and it seems like the idea to put
    the air defense complex is healthy.
    But she is not needed.
    It makes sense to go in two other ways, but both involve UAVs.
    1. Create autonomous modules with MANPADS. Those. thought such. The submarine releases a disposable module with MANPADS, which floats up and destroys the target. In this case, you can set a certain program. Like go 10 km south. Then surface and destroy everything that comes across.

    2. Create autonomous combat modules that will go to a given area and complete the task. this is where Poseidon plus artificial intelligence comes in handy.
  13. +4
    4 February 2021 12: 01
    Another fantasy, far from reality.
    Apparently, the author has never heard anything about modern FOSS and what a modern active-passive hydroacoustic system of illumination of an underwater environment of rapid deployment is not even guessing.
    And that even India has already tested an anti-submarine missile with a range of 400 miles, and the United States is working on equipping the P-8A Poseidon with the Lockheed Martin AGM-158C anti-ship missile, which can be equipped with an anti-submarine torpedo as a warhead, the author also does not know.
    1. 0
      4 February 2021 18: 24
      Quote: Undecim
      Another fantasy, far from reality.
      Apparently, the author has never heard anything about modern FOSS and what a modern active-passive hydroacoustic system of illumination of an underwater environment of rapid deployment is not even guessing.


      What does this have to do with countering ASW aircraft?

      Quote: Undecim
      And that even India has already tested an anti-submarine missile with a range of 400 miles


      Yes? And the PL was really impressed? Or a torpedo, thrown along a ballistic trajectory with an accuracy of +/- 500 meters, just flopped into the water?

      600 kilometers, even at a speed like Iskander's 2100 m / s, in a straight line for 300 seconds. 5 minutes of flight. But in fact, according to the ballistic curve, it is about 1,5 times more, + the time for the descent of the torpedo by parachute, + miss of the ballistic missile, + the demolition of the parachute by the wind. As if the Indians did not sink their submarine with such tolerances ...

      Quote: Undecim
      and in the USA they are working on equipping the P-8A Poseidon with the Lockheed Martin AGM-158C anti-ship missile, which can be equipped with an anti-submarine torpedo as a warhead, the author also does not know.


      No way, no way, you can't put a torpedo in a LARSSM. Look at the size and weight of its warhead and the size and weight of the 324 mm torpedo.
      1. +1
        4 February 2021 18: 36
        What does this have to do with countering ASW aircraft?
        The most direct. You just need to strain a little to understand.
        1. 0
          4 February 2021 19: 38
          Quote: Undecim
          What does this have to do with countering ASW aircraft?
          The most direct. You just need to strain a little to understand.


          I doubt that the accuracy of such a system will allow hitting submarines with long-range weapons.

          And you have not learned the main thing - the air defense system does not contradict secrecy. Not at all. This is just another chance.

          Equipment in the simplest version will hardly take up space, and 2 out of 40 mines for 8 missiles (4 in each mine) will not weaken the combat effectiveness.
          1. +1
            4 February 2021 19: 49
            And you have not learned the main thing
            Don't worry, I'm fine with assimilation.
            And will Ichthyander give target designation to the submarine, in Morse code, knocking on the hull with a hammer?
            1. 0
              4 February 2021 20: 27
              Quote: Undecim
              And you have not learned the main thing
              Don't worry, I'm fine with assimilation.
              And will Ichthyander give target designation to the submarine, in Morse code, knocking on the hull with a hammer?


              The target designation of the boat will be given by the periscope, which already has the function of detecting air targets. Optical channel + thermal imager. Periscope radar in perspective.

              And the decision to use the air defense missile system or not, floating to the periscope depth, is made by the submarine commander, based on his competence and experience, and understanding whether he will succeed in leaving or not, or it is easier to get rid of the annoying pursuer.
              1. 0
                4 February 2021 20: 33
                And the decision to use the air defense missile system or not, floating to the periscope depth, is made by the submarine commander, based on his competence and experience, and understanding whether he will succeed in leaving or not, or it is easier to get rid of the annoying pursuer.
                And will the submarine commander guess on maps or throw dice about the presence of an PLO aircraft within the periscope range? Or use your inner voice?
                You still try to read about modern FOSS, so as not to fantasize about "periscope target designation".
                1. 0
                  4 February 2021 22: 28
                  Quote: Undecim
                  And the decision to use the air defense missile system or not, floating to the periscope depth, is made by the submarine commander, based on his competence and experience, and understanding whether he will succeed in leaving or not, or it is easier to get rid of the annoying pursuer.
                  And will the submarine commander guess on maps or throw dice about the presence of an PLO aircraft within the periscope range? Or use your inner voice?
                  You still try to read about modern FOSS, so as not to fantasize about "periscope target designation".


                  Will active illumination of hydroacoustic buoys or torpedoes falling into the water pass for a "litmus test"?
                  1. +2
                    4 February 2021 22: 54
                    pass for a "litmus test"?
                    Try to write something better in chemistry. About the litmus test, for example. With submarines, let's face it - not really. One ascent to periscope depth under a hail of anti-submarine torpedoes falling into the water is worth a lot.
  14. 0
    4 February 2021 12: 27
    We have developed an anti-submarine missile system RPK-6 "Waterfall" developed by OKB-9 (now - MKB "Novator"), chief designer - L. V. Lyulyev. But for some reason this topic did not receive further development
  15. +1
    4 February 2021 12: 46
    Quote: Undecim
    Another fantasy, far from reality.


    Even if it's fantasy, why not try to implement it?
    Are we born to always only chase advanced technologies, and not create something new and advanced ourselves? So our retrogrades always talk about new things - fantasies! And as abroad it will appear in the flesh, so for our retrogrades it is like a command to start bad and belated copying.

    On the other hand, if air defense systems on nuclear submarines are impossible, then let's create the revival of the fighter aircraft of the fleet.

    Or is it better to move the SSBN to the Caspian. To protect the Caspian Sea from the Poseidons, a single squadron of naval aviation fighters will be enough. Then you don't have to cross a hedgehog and a snake in the same submarine.

    And now let's try to think about which of the following is better and cheaper to guarantee a retaliatory strike by SLBMs:
    1) SAM on a submarine, which are not only in the project, but even in the thoughts of those who make decisions;
    2) fighter naval aviation, which needs to be increased to several hundred units ($ 30-40 million apiece);
    3) transfer of SSBNs to Kaspiysk, where it is necessary to spend money on the construction of a nuclear submarine base.
    1. +2
      4 February 2021 13: 14
      Are we born to always only chase advanced technologies, and not create something new and advanced ourselves?
      Let's. Only air defense systems on submarines can not be classified as "new and advanced". All this has already passed the stage and has not received much development. Apparently, the author does not know about this.

      1972 year. British HMS Aeneas. Four Blowpipe SLAM (Submarine-Launched Air Missiles) missiles mounted on a retractable mast. Israel tried a similar system at about the same time.
      1. +1
        4 February 2021 13: 40
        From the more recent - the brainchild of the joint development of Diehl Defense, HDW, Kongsberg, Nammo, ROKETSAN - the IDAS system - 2006.

        There are French and even Indian designs.
      2. +1
        4 February 2021 14: 45
        You have cited examples from the relatively distant past that have already sounded in part both in the article itself and in the discussion after the article. But after all, I did not mean the old stuff you named in my review.

        But I then (in fact agreeing with the author of the article) express the idea of ​​the realization of the fantasies of the author of the article, and not about what happened during the Second World War or during the Cold War.

        In other words, let's try to create air defense systems for nuclear submarines based on the proposed technologies - lasers and compact optoelectronic guidance devices, AFAR on periscopes, either on towed stations, as well as anti-aircraft missile systems on towed stations, or on buoys dropped from submarines.

        And if this does not work out, then to the Caspian Sea, or to build up the fighter aircraft of the Navy.
        1. +2
          4 February 2021 16: 12
          You gave those examples from the relatively distant past,
          Ten years, in your opinion - the distant past?
          In other words, let's try to create air defense systems for nuclear submarines based on the proposed technologies - lasers and compact optoelectronic guidance devices, AFAR on periscopes, either on towed stations, as well as anti-aircraft missile systems on towed stations, or on buoys dropped from submarines.
          Create, who forbids you. On buoys. Sounds impressive - the system is on buoys.
  16. +1
    4 February 2021 12: 47
    Quote: APASUS
    We have developed an anti-submarine missile system RPK-6 "Waterfall" developed by OKB-9 (now - MKB "Novator"), chief designer - L. V. Lyulyev. But for some reason this topic did not receive further development


    And how "Waterfall" will protect our nuclear submarines from NATO ASW aircraft? But this is exactly what the article is about - about the threat to our submarines from the air.

    That is, your remark is not on the topic of discussion.
  17. -4
    4 February 2021 13: 38
    The author is dreaming! But maybe there is already some kind of air defense on submarines! Why should this data get into the media? The main thing is a surprise for the enemy! Otherwise they will look for ways of counteraction, and maybe even successful ones! There is a lot of things that they don't talk about!
  18. +2
    4 February 2021 14: 46
    That without air cover, the submarine did not last long became known back in WW2. And instead of thinking about how to humanly provide this very cover, the author begins to fantasize about all sorts of wunderwaffe. It remains to attach wings to the submarine and send it into space, let it fly.
    Speaking on the topic.
    Periscope depth and emitting radar are extremely poorly combined with the main advantages of submarines over surface ships - stealth and protection from a thick layer of water. There is no point in such hybrids.
    Submarines have never lost their "secrecy", so the fleets of the whole world continue to replenish them. And the evolution of the submarine in the foreseeable future will follow well-known trends: the introduction of new sound-absorbing coatings, automation, followed by a radical reduction in the size and visibility of all "fields".
  19. 0
    4 February 2021 14: 52
    The article demonstrates the complete illiteracy of the author of the article in air defense matters. Therefore, "but comment"
  20. +2
    4 February 2021 14: 56
    Quote: Undecim
    From the more recent - the brainchild of the joint development of Diehl Defense, HDW, Kongsberg, Nammo, ROKETSAN - the IDAS system - 2006.

    There are French and even Indian designs.


    The more recent foreign developments you named were also mentioned by the author of the article. And they were mentioned in the way that these developments are weak and do not solve the problem of protecting nuclear submarines from the air. Because the:
    1) French submarines do not have air threat detection systems. Under these conditions, firing anti-aircraft missiles from a torpedo tube is like just firing into the sky;
    2) Air defense systems of nuclear submarines of France do not have reliable homing systems, identification systems "friend or foe" and their radius is very small. That is, for France this is nothing more than an experiment. Not a bad start, though.

    You, Undecim, would rather speak about the principles of operation of the air defense missile system of the nuclear submarine, which are proposed by the author of the article, and not about those that took place 30-70 years ago. After all, probably now, and even more so in the near future, the ZKR nuclear submarine has a right to exist.

    And also your opinion on how to protect the nuclear submarine, if you so categorically do not perceive the idea of ​​developing the air defense system of the nuclear submarine. Or maybe then, in your opinion, better let our nuclear submarines die from the Poseidon strikes, not having time to shoot at US cities?

    Personally, I believe that our nuclear submarines should be protected by any efforts of the entire country until the moment when their ammunition load leaves for the USA and Europe. And then come what may.
    1. +2
      4 February 2021 19: 58
      Personally, I believe that our nuclear submarines should be protected by any efforts of the entire country until the moment when their ammunition load leaves for the USA and Europe. And then come what may.
      Will we cover with bodies?
      And also your opinion on how to defend the Premier League
      These methods have been known for a long time. There are no hysterics among them.
  21. 0
    4 February 2021 16: 30
    Quote: Undecim
    You gave those examples from the relatively distant past,
    Ten years, in your opinion - the distant past?
    In other words, let's try to create air defense systems for nuclear submarines based on the proposed technologies - lasers and compact optoelectronic guidance devices, AFAR on periscopes, either on towed stations, as well as anti-aircraft missile systems on towed stations, or on buoys dropped from submarines.
    Create, who forbids you. On buoys. Sounds impressive - the system is on buoys.


    Let it be 10 years ago. But that's not what I asked you.

    And about what, in your opinion, is better to protect our nuclear submarines, if air defense systems on nuclear submarines seem useless to you. However, if you do not want to answer, then this is your right.
    1. +2
      4 February 2021 20: 07
      And what do you think is better to protect our nuclear submarines?
      The presence of a modern balanced fleet and modern naval aviation, which everyone is doing to the best of their ability. There are no other methods for today.
      The search for a conciliatory wunderwaffe by all kinds of dilettantes is a waste of time.
  22. +1
    4 February 2021 16: 32
    Quote: gregor6549
    The article demonstrates the complete illiteracy of the author of the article in air defense matters. Therefore, "but comment"


    You don't have a single article about submarine. But apparently you consider yourself more literate than the author of this article. Then argue, if possible, without duplicating the criticism already voiced in the discussion.
  23. -1
    4 February 2021 18: 06

    Anti-aircraft missile systems on submarines: the inevitable evolution of the submarine

    What are we arguing that our IMF will avoid this evolution?
    1. +1
      4 February 2021 18: 56
      Quote: Sckepsis

      Anti-aircraft missile systems on submarines: the inevitable evolution of the submarine

      What are we arguing that our IMF will avoid this evolution?


      The IMF, unfortunately, is not ours. And our Navy, unfortunately, avoids a lot of things - modern torpedoes, counter-torpedoes, ASW aircraft, ISSAPLs in digestible quantities, modern destroyers, UAVs, etc. etc.
    2. 0
      4 February 2021 19: 27
      [quote = Sckepsis] What are we betting that our IMF will avoid this evolution?
      If the divers are not so straightforward, that is, shoot specials. a torpedo, from which a rocket will then jump out, which will then drop the starting accelerator and then a small racket will fly further (like that of a PRZK), that is, not far and not high, because it is small, although at the beginning the torpedo in the boat was large, while the submarine can handle itself discover
      1 torpedo launch noise (in water)
      2 "raised periscope
      3 rocket launch (in the air)
      4 repeated launches of torpedo missiles, very likely to have to be fired several times.
      And now the most important thing is that everything happens in time trouble, there is no time, but where does it come from with such logistics. Therefore, the task must be solved differently
      The submarine raises the antenna and, in silence, receives coordinates about possible targets from surveillance equipment on satellites, aircraft, radar, the information should be broadcast continuously, if a target is within the range of the submarine's weapon, you can make decisions and attack, but not with torpedoes, but simply drop a container with a rocket, which then floats up and launches a rather large and complex missile with a large radius of action using a mortar method and which is capable of finding a target in the designated square, e, and the submarine, meanwhile, does not interfere in the process
      1. 0
        5 February 2021 22: 12
        And also from the "dropped container" a UAV can fly out, detect an air target and destroy the adversary with decisive actions.
  24. 0
    4 February 2021 18: 43
    Quote: Sckepsis

    Anti-aircraft missile systems on submarines: the inevitable evolution of the submarine

    What are we arguing that our IMF will avoid this evolution?


    The absence of evolution or revolution in armaments and in the economy, that is, the absence of any progressive development option, usually leads a nation to defeat and disappearance. The memory of such a nation sometimes remains on the pages of history textbooks.
  25. 0
    5 February 2021 02: 10
    the best is to install the S-400 TRIUMPH on the submarine and it will shoot down these pasidons and missiles
  26. 0
    5 February 2021 10: 27
    Quote: Undecim
    And what do you think is better to protect our nuclear submarines?
    The presence of a modern balanced fleet and modern naval aviation, which everyone is doing to the best of their ability. There are no other methods for today.
    The search for a conciliatory wunderwaffe by all kinds of dilettantes is a waste of time.


    So they would immediately say, otherwise they dodged for a long time.

    But only the creation of a balanced fleet and fighter aircraft to cover ASW - how many units are needed for the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet? And how much will it cost?
    I will assume that at least 2-3 frigates for each submarine.
    And the same number of fighters. And only for hunting Poseidons. And if the Poseidons themselves have air cover, then several times more fighters will be needed to protect our nuclear submarines.
    For almost 30 existing and repaired nuclear submarines in the Russian Navy, it is necessary to have 60-90 frigates and under a hundred or two fighters with a total cost of 15-30 billion dollars. It is not lifting. Despite the fact that the entire annual budget of the RF Ministry of Defense is now less than 50 billion dollars.

    So maybe air defense systems for nuclear submarines are cheaper? Or maybe it will be even cheaper to build an SSBN base in the Caspian?
  27. +1
    5 February 2021 12: 58
    In this form, the development of such an air defense system is impossible and was long rejected. I mean the start of an air defense system from periscope depth.
    Primarily due to the fact that the missile launcher is made from a depth of several meters, and, accordingly, the missile defense system will have to overcome a certain water column, which will negate all its main characteristics and it will be inferior to its ground / surface counterparts dozens of times. confident destruction of even low-speed targets requires a speed of 2-3 mach. To overcome the water, you will need a mortar start, that is, the missile defense system must be three-stage, the closest such ground analogue is the S-300. under the water, then the starting engine turns on, accelerates the missile defense to the required speed, then the usual sustainer engine turns on. marching, unable to catch up even with a helicopter. And the problem is that such a colossus can only be installed on strategic missile carriers, to the detriment of their main armament, and no one will exchange Maces for missiles.
    Secondly, the SAM itself does not solve anything, a complex is needed, that is, systems for detecting, targeting, processing information, computing, and, accordingly, launching. Well, and accordingly trained personnel. It's just that a missile released like this will not get anywhere, only if the aircraft is in it. Accordingly, the changes made will require a radical restructuring of the submarine, with the likely deterioration of its main characteristics. And all this is not clear for what purpose. Just so that it was, just in case. Just in case, there are MANPADS on the boats if the captain suddenly wants to shoot down the plane , then let it pop up urgently, grab a MANPADS, run upstairs and shoot down. Aiming and firing a missile from a MANPADS in the hands of a skilled anti-aircraft gunner takes 2 seconds. From a short distance of 500-1500 m
    not even a single low-speed target will have time to react to such a launch. And then, with a clear conscience, let it submerge. This and that will be an order of magnitude more effective than inventing different bicycles for movement under water. By the way, in Russian developments there has long been an approximate underwater analogue Strela-10, the launch is made from a depth above the pereskopnaya, that is, it is enough for the wheelhouse to appear from the water where the complex is installed, according to the assurances of the developers, detection, target acquisition and missile launch are performed in 60 seconds, after which the boat can submerge. There are options for launching from near periscope depth, but it deals with retractable containers with missiles and radar. But as a rule, this all concerns short-range missiles and therefore these developments have not received approval, since there are enough standard MANPADS for these purposes.
    Thirdly, in order to detect an aerial target, a submarine must periodically surface to periscope depth, extend antennas / locators / so on, is so for some time in an active search, attracting the attention of the entire world ocean. At periscope depth, a boat is easy to find many kilometers away, even if a simple tourist flies past, I'm not talking about anti-submarine aviation. At the moment of these manipulations, the boat will give out its location not only to aviation, but also to surface anti-submarine forces, and most importantly to enemy submarines. And, accordingly, it risks getting a PLUR or a torpedo, more while he is looking for his plane. And never even the most reckless captain of a submarine in the world, even possessing super anti-aircraft missiles, will dare to find himself, for the sake of some mythical helicopter or plane. So no matter what threat aviation poses to submarines, their main targets remain enemy surface ships and submarines.

    Well, the most promising developments in this area is the setting in the patrol area of ​​the submarine of pop-up containers with missiles, that is, in fact, anti-aircraft and anti-helicopter mines, which are slightly modified for sea conditions. which after a certain time self-destruct, if they do not find a target, this can be done from great depths without attracting attention. Development in this area is underway, and even successfully in many countries, the United States planned to adopt the Sea Serpent system, but so far there is no data on adoption.
    1. -1
      5 February 2021 18: 27
      Quote: Xscorpion
      Well, the most promising developments in this area is the setting in the patrol area of ​​the submarine of floating containers with missiles, that is, in fact, anti-aircraft and anti-helicopter mines, which are slightly modified for sea conditions

      Quite right, and even this is not the "most promising" solution, but the only possible solution,
    2. 0
      7 February 2021 19: 12
      Quote: Xscorpion
      There will be no mortar launch, a standard starting engine, even if it can take the rocket out of the water, will not be able to accelerate the rocket, and it will trudge on a march, unable to catch up even with a helicopter. And the problem is that such a colossus can be installed only on strategic missile carriers, to the detriment of their main armament, and no one will exchange Bulava for SAM.

      The Thor missiles make full use of the mortar launch and are not very large.
      I think that the means of air defense missile systems on submarines should not be considered as a means of hunting submarines by planes and helicopters, but as a means of self-defense of a boat located at periscope depth it is quite possible.
  28. 0
    5 February 2021 20: 56
    Of course, the author is a sofa theorist, and seriously
    discussing his next "notion" is simply stupid.
    But I want to ask a couple of questions, just like that, for the soul.
    1.Why did you decide that the P-8 Poseidon
    patrolling at an altitude of 60 meters and a speed of 333 km / h "?
    2.How a submarine commander finds out that he is trying to find
    "Poseidon" if the latter only works "passive"
    means?
    1. +2
      5 February 2021 21: 38
      2.How a submarine commander finds out that he is trying to find
      "Poseidon" if the latter only works "passive"
      means?

      So the author already answered in the comment: "Active illumination of hydroacoustic buoys or torpedoes falling into the water."
      That is, by the sound of anti-submarine torpedoes falling into the water, the submarine commander will understand that they are trying to detect him.
      1. 0
        5 February 2021 22: 08
        Quote: Undecim
        So the author already answered in the comment: "Active illumination of hydroacoustic buoys or torpedoes falling into the water."

        No no no...
        1. +1
          5 February 2021 22: 19
          The author sees this way and is strongly indignant that his "vision" is criticized.
    2. +1
      5 February 2021 22: 17
      I am not an author (although I also respect the sofa), but I can express my assumptions:
      1. Spinal cord (this can be done without surfacing under the periscope).
      2. By the smell from the exhaust (you have to float up and sniff).
  29. +1
    5 February 2021 21: 19
    Very interesting) Ie. do you suggest detecting aviation with an anti-aircraft periscope? Those. the boat must constantly navigate at periscope depth with an uncleaned periscope? good
    1. +1
      6 February 2021 10: 40
      Quote: squid
      Very interesting) Ie. do you suggest detecting aviation with an anti-aircraft periscope? Those. the boat must constantly navigate at periscope depth with an uncleaned periscope?

      And make the periscope as thick as a steamer tube so that missiles can be launched through it.
    2. 0
      14 March 2021 19: 21
      Shoot down with an anti-aircraft periscope
  30. 0
    6 February 2021 21: 51
    good breathed by Alexander Zorich (zorichi) - the epic "Tomorrow is war" ... And yes, the idea of ​​installing an air defense system on a submarine simply suggests itself.
  31. 0
    7 February 2021 20: 57
    This will be another victory of technology over common sense.
  32. 0
    8 February 2021 20: 05
    Good idea! I've also been talking about this for a long time, I write articles, but the military-industrial complex does not hear us! The German adversary has already developed IDAS, but there is a launch through a torpedo tube, fiber-optic control, as I understand it, until the moment it leaves the water. I would suggest to make the rocket, quietly calmly, float up on floats, through vertical shafts, then when the boat sailed away - launch! It is possible for such anti-aircraft missiles-floats to be on duty in the desired area in a passive mode and react to the irradiation of aircraft submarine radar and hello ...
    1. 0
      14 March 2021 19: 20
      I also support the calculation of the gills to transplant in order to refuel the rocket
  33. 0
    13 February 2021 09: 23
    The idea is sensible and quite realistic for implementation today ... if it has not already been implemented on the "fire-and-forget" principle. PLO aircraft are slow and search at low altitude. For air defense systems, especially when leaving higher and attacking from above, they are an easy target when aircraft use any counter-fighting systems. The ocean is not land, the slightest damage to the aircraft makes it incapacitated, given the low motivation of the crew to fight to the end .. at the slightest hit, the Yankees will strive for "evacuation", that is, escape from the battlefield, in order to preserve the skin. And this is not jingoistic patriotism, but the realities of today's education of NATO personnel. So the SAM - to be!
  34. 0
    14 February 2021 14: 26
    In the manner of presentation and the abundance of pictures, at first I thought that this was the pearl of the unforgettable Maxim Klimov, who develops his crazy idea of ​​"patrolling missiles", we do not have a surface ocean fleet that could, as before, give stability to nuclear submarines in the open ocean, but supply the submarines with some missiles for the fight against enemy aircraft in the area of ​​operation of the enemy's naval squadrons and anti-aircraft missile defense, well, it is not clever and suicidal at all, in this situation there are two ways out: 1. Creation of a powerful ocean-going fleet; 2. Transfer of SSBN combat service areas to adjacent waters (which is being done right now) in the North of the Arctic Ocean, in the East of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. True, one submarine with missiles can be made, Klimov and Mitrofanov can be put there and sent to sea ...
  35. 0
    18 February 2021 02: 50
    As for underground air defense systems that appear and disappear in a few minutes ... Firstly, the positions of the air defense missile systems of the Aerospace Forces do have some fortification engineering equipment, in any case, the calculations of the command post and control points are really underground and the rest of the elements are also covered to a certain extent. And secondly, the transfer of all modern air defense systems (which, without exception, are now highly mobile self-propelled) from the combat position to the traveling position and from the traveling to combat position does not really exceed 5 minutes. And the shooting of wandering air defense systems from ambush was used in Vietnam and the Middle East in the 60-70s of the last century.
    If the submarine really wants to have something like that, let it offer the ground forces and the Aerospace Forces, for example, in exchange for torpedoes, modified for effective use on land and in the air.
    In general, the area of ​​the lateral surfaces of the submarine's deckhouse is quite sufficient to accommodate modern phased antenna arrays of a multifunctional air defense radar, as well as on superstructures of surface ships.
    1. 0
      14 March 2021 19: 17
      Yes, and these radars will work directly from under the water, and the sea water at a depth is especially useful for headlights
  36. 0
    18 February 2021 19: 48
    It is very interesting and needs to be implemented.
  37. 0
    24 February 2021 04: 03
    Another crazy article from this author ..... my god ...
    1. 0
      10 March 2021 22: 10
      Quote: tasha
      The article is interesting and the pictures are funny.

      Pictures, yes, especially the one that depicts "Possible appearance of AMFPK based on the strategic missile submarine cruiser (SSBN) of project 955A."
  38. 0
    14 March 2021 19: 15
    FANTASTIC FANTASY and the author of the article understands how active targeting works? And, in principle, will the pl will let her in at random?
  39. +1
    18 March 2021 14: 38
    In my opinion, it's easier to make an aerial combat drone and flood the skies with it. Poseidon will not throw in his buoys when such fighters are on the tail of the heels. Without a man on board, they will be able to show truly outstanding maneuverability, perhaps even dashingly evade enemy fighter missiles. They will not need to bomb ground targets or conduct reconnaissance ... Only one goal - to shoot down enemy aircraft. I think even the MiG-21 can be converted into a fighter droid and it will be effective.
  40. 0
    19 March 2021 01: 40
    After this picture, questions about the rationality of the author and the elaboration of the idea immediately disappear.
  41. 0
    April 4 2021 18: 29
    Yes, 8 medium / long range missiles will create a new reality. How to do it?!
  42. 0
    April 8 2021 09: 54
    My personal opinion is that the most effective, and most importantly, relatively easy-to-implement air defense tool, would be to change the anti-ship missile software. On anti -arable calibers and Onyx already there is an active radar seeker, there is an INS, there is a flight range of hundreds of kilometers, and there is a warhead of "bad mass". What prevents the launch of the anti-ship missile system not "in the distance", but along the patrol route, say in the form of a spiral, searching with the help of the seeker not surface, but air targets, and, if detected, attack them? Perhaps the only thing that needs to be finished is a proximity fuse (1-3 kg of mass, 1-2 liters of volume), and, in the case of the Caliber, everything flying at a speed of up to 800 km / h, and in the case of Onyx, and up to 1600 km / h, it will suddenly go bad. And if the anti-ship missile system is in a capsule with positive buoyancy and a timer + a conventional microphone that is triggered by the noise of the propellers and engines of aircraft and helicopters of a submarine, then it is possible to solve the problem of the secrecy of using such an air defense system, as well as to use it from almost any operating depth of a submarine. And if you also replace the warhead with an anti-aircraft one, of a smaller mass, especially for the Caliber, you can get a flight range of more than a thousand kilometers, and a patrol duration for 1-1,5 hours.
  43. 0
    21 August 2021 11: 45
    Let me remind the author that WWII radars detected snorkels above the water.
    Modern periscope systems with radar at what distance will they see?
    Boat found = sunk. It is a stealth hunter, not a battleship that attacks and is attacked.
    You completely forget this fact.
    Farther. for shooting, the boat needs to: swim up to the periscope depth (remember, now they go to the workers, and when they want to hide - to the limit), that is, find themselves. and then spend time looking for an airplane. because with any AGSN the rocket has a narrow cone - a funnel well 30 degrees from the longitudinal axis of symmetry, well 45 in each direction - if you're lucky, in fact, already.
    If they don't drown her during this time, God forbid. But if anything, the boat costs as much as 20 such planes.
    And when the boat was discovered in some area, all the search forces would be drawn there and still sink it. a couple of downed orions is not worth it.
    I'm not even talking about the fact that launching from under the water is not an easy task, and just shoving missiles (and these are only 885 and 955) or into a torpedo tube is NOT EASY.
  44. 0
    4 June 2022 22: 26
    Interesting concept. It can be implemented in two versions. Moreover, both can then be implemented within the framework of two types of weapons with the ability to put both on special-purpose submarines.

    Option 1, active near - in this option, the system consists of an acoustic system on board the submarine, which listens to the upper hemisphere specifically to detect the characteristic sounds of low-flying ASW aviation (airplanes and helicopters still make good noise during low flight but fly slower than the speed of sound). And at the command of the captain of the boat, 1-2 vertical-launch missiles are fired from a submerged position. They vertically fly up to a height of tens of meters above sea level. Flying up, it rotates at a speed of several revolutions per second. The IR homing head detects the target, turns on the solid propellant engine and flies to hit the target. In this design, you can both defend yourself after the boat has actively begun to "press", and deliberately lure ASW aircraft to attack.

    Option 2, passive mine - the complex is based on the same missile and the same noise detection system from under the water. But arranged in a single container adapted for installation through torpedo tubes or vertical launch shafts. The container drifts at a constant depth and constantly listens to the environment. The boat itself, after installing the "mines", can sail further on its own business. There will be a timer in the "mine" that initiates the self-destruction of the device after a certain time has elapsed, so that such a mine does not accidentally knock down someone not from the military. Also, self-destruction will make it difficult for the enemy to explore such a mine, due to the fact that by the time it is discovered, it will already be destroyed. The very same principle of defeat does not differ from the first option. The acoustic sensor listens to the upper hemisphere, if it hears an aircraft, it shoots a rocket vertically, and it itself aims at the target. Such mines can be set in advance during the operation for a safe withdrawal. For example, a boat has a task, with missiles from its vertical mines, to carry out a volley at a stationary coastal target - the enemy's naval port. In order to destroy the infrastructure and ships in the parking lot. Before taking up position for a volley. A submarine from sectors from which enemy PLO aircraft are likely to fly will set up small fields with such mines. So that at the time of the retreat, the aircraft stumbling upon them was distracted or even partially shot down. Which in turn will increase the chances of the boat for a successful escape and the successful completion of the mission.