Military Review

A dream plane, or What makes a Boeing in Russia

82
A dream plane, or What makes a Boeing in Russia


Behind the windows of the windows the fine rain is drizzling, the airliner is taxiing to the lighted runway and is preparing to make a rapid run. The engines began to whistle in take-off mode, the plane quickly picks up speed. Brushes frontal glazing frantically threshing, brushing raindrops, merging into thin streams. The line of speed of stopping takeoff has been passed, and the Boeing, to the applause of the crowd, breaks away from concrete, greedily gaining the first meters of height ...

So 15 December 2009 of the year at Payne Field Airfield (pc. Washington) made its first test flight Boeing-787 Dreamliner - the world's only wide-body airliner, whose fuselage is made of composite materials. The first novelty of the American civil aviation industry over the past 15 years has become an outstanding achievement in Russian engineering. Those applause at the Payne-Field airfield were meant precisely for our compatriots, because “Dream Liner” is in many ways a Russian project, largely designed in Russia, tested in Russia and made from Russian-made parts!



Boeing 787 "Dream Liner". Wide-body long-haul passenger aircraft.
Capacity of 250-330 passengers depending on the modification. The maximum flight distance is 15700 km. Take-off weight 245 tons.


Boeing Corporation - The Worlds Largest Manufacturer aviation, space and military equipment. The range of products is very wide: from civilian airliners, to cruise missiles, unmanned aerial vehicles and modules of the International Space Station. Among the most famous Boeing projects are the B-29 Super Fortress bomber, the B-52 Cold War symbol, Apache helicopter, Apollo spacecraft, Harpoon, Tomahawk and Hellfire cruise missiles, and the famous line airliners of the 700th series. The number of employees of the company is 158 thousand people.

Moscow Design Center

Translation of design work in Russia "Boeing" began in the first half of the 1990-s. In 1998, the Moscow Design Center (MCC) was opened, in which all the 12 engineers from the Design Bureau named after N. S.V. Ilyushin. Ten years later, a small branch turned into the largest engineering center outside the US - today 150 staff members work at Boeing MCC, and more than 1000 employees from Russian design bureaus are involved in the design work on the topic “Boeing - Civil Aviation”. It looks like this: formally, Russian engineers work in Russian design bureaus, but the results of their activities, in agreement with the management of Russian companies, are transferred to the Boeing Center. Since 1998, Russian experts participated in 250 projects of American companies, including large-scale projects as 747 Boeing Converted Freighter, Boeing 737-900ER, Boeing 777F, Boeing 767-200SF / 300BCF, the new aircraft family 747 Boeing 747-8 and even flagship model - Boeing 787 Dreamliner.


Center of Moscow, 17 / 9 Newspaper Lane. On the upper floors above McDonald's is the ICC "Boeing"


In 2004, Boeing and the Ministry of Industry and Energy of the Russian Federation signed a Memorandum on the participation of Russian industry in the creation of the Dreamliner aircraft. According to the president of Boeing Russia Inc, Sergey Kravchenko, the Dreamliner bow section was fully designed in Moscow, the drawings of most of the fuselage details were also made by Russian engineers at the MCC: wing mechanization elements, engine mounting pylons, and engine nacelles. According to Boeing, more than one-third of engineering calculations for the newest model of the Dreamliner were made by MCC specialists, and the level of participation of Russian specialists in the development of other aircraft types is about the same proportion. In 2006, the Boeing Center has received an AS / 9100 certificate confirming compliance with the highest standards requirements for aerospace enterprises.


Purely Russian project. Cargo version of Boeing-747 Dreamlifter


MCC Boeing is proud that its engineering projects at the beginning of the 2000-s allowed to return to the aircraft industry thousands of high-class Russian specialists who left the aviation industry and went into business in "dashing 90-e."

9 June 2008 of the Year “Boeing” and “Russian Aircraft Corporation” signed an agreement on expanding cooperation, which added the implementation of training programs for employees of domestic aerospace enterprises. Boeing factories in the USA regularly organize internships for Russian specialists. This allows domestic engineers to get to know and study in detail modern computer-aided design systems, to gain experience in the field of project management and quality control. But is everything so beautiful in reality?

Scientific and Technical Center

The MCC is only an external attribute, the Boeing penetrated much deeper. Since 1993, in the suburban town of Zhukovsky, right inside the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI), the Boeing Scientific and Technical Center has settled, to which services all the infrastructure, laboratories and stands of the Russian Scientific Center are the cradle of domestic aviation. And this is a lot - at the disposal of the institute more than 60 wind tunnels and test benches for strength studies, acoustics and aerodynamics of aircraft. Currently, Boeing is surely available any information from the archives of the once specially protected institute, American experts thoroughly studied all the old projects of Soviet scientists. Apparently, some of the "obsolete" developments of the USSR times are still of considerable interest - Boeing is willing to pay millions to ensure the smooth operation of its Scientific and Technical Center.

Americans have long considered TsAGI to be their property and manage their business inside the institute — they assemble the equipment they need and install stands for testing Boeing aircraft parts. 500 Russian specialists are involved in the work of the center: engineering and technical workers, scientists, programmers - employees of TsAGI - FSUE “Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute named after prof. N.Ye. Zhukovsky ”, CIAM - Federal State Unitary Enterprise“ Central Institute of Aviation Motors. P.I. Baranova ", Institute of Applied Mathematics. Keldysh and other institutions of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

Boeing saves a great deal on design development - the entire scientific and testing base went to the Americans almost for free, and Russian specialists need much less to pay than their overseas counterparts.

Made in Russia

Boeing needs titanium. A lot of titanium. 7 July 2009 of the year saw the opening of the joint venture Ural Boeing Manufacturing on the basis of the industrial facilities of the Russian corporation VSMPO-AVISMA, Verkhnaya Salda, Sverdlovsk Region.
The Russian Corporation VSMPO-AVISMA is the world's largest manufacturer of titanium products with a vertically integrated technological process. Sponge titanium is used as the main component in the smelting of high-quality titanium alloys. The new plant, equipped with the latest technology, is engaged in machining of titanium forgings for Russian and American aircraft. Approximate production capacity - 74 tons of titanium products per month. Final processing of parts takes place at the Boeing plant in Portland (USA).


Joint venture in Verkhnaya Salda. Next to the photo are the power elements of the Dreamliner design


Over the next 30 years, the Boeing business development plan in Russia envisages investments in the amount of $ 27 billion, of which about $ 18 billion will go to purchase titanium products, $ 5 billion to purchase design services and $ 4 billion It is planned to spend on the acquisition of other types of goods and services produced by the aerospace industry of Russia.

Tops and roots

Boeing is a serious company with a solid history and vast practical experience in creating outstanding projects. The financial potential of the industrial giant is almost not exhausted - Boeing is able to take on any project in the aerospace industry. This is a truly high level; Russian science deserves equal cooperation with such a partner! But can we really call our partnership relationship?
Thanks to the intervention of "overseas friends", hundreds of our engineers, the color of Russian science, were spared in 90-s from traveling with wide checked bags to China, continuing to do their favorite thing - Aviation. But to say that this is a great merit of the Boeing - at least not fair. "Boeing" only competently used the situation of the collapse of the Soviet Union and acted in its own interests. During 19 years of Boeing’s presence in Russia, local specialists got acquainted with the best American technologies. Billion investment in Russian industry, charity programs in Russia and the CIS. The World of Art Foundation, the Center for the Rehabilitation of Children with Oncological Diseases, adoption programs for orphans (the program “Kidsave International” is a permanent object of criticism), the Diagnostic Center at the City Children's Hospital of Verkhnyaya Salda.

And everything seems to be not bad. But it does not leave the feeling that behind the rubber smiles of Americans is a wolf grin. I take pride in the Russian scientists who create the most advanced civilian airliners in the world. Aircraft with a fuselage of composites - powerful, safe and economical? Very good. But why this “Boeing”, and not “Tupolev”? Russian science has reaffirmed its prestige ... but all profits have gone overseas. No, I am not against cooperation with foreign partners and exchange of experience in the framework of international research programs. But American specialists have been working at TsAGI for a long time, and why, for example, the Sukhoi Design Bureau does not have its own scientific and technical branch somewhere in the Waterton Canyon research center owned by Lockheed Martin Corporation ?!
We are ready to cooperate with honest partners. But this, I'm sorry, is a game with only one goal.
Author:
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  1. Justme
    Justme 17 August 2012 08: 38
    +7
    According to the story of one of our guys who, having worked in this center in the direction of composites, went on to develop his ideas further in the States.

    There is a discussion of some important issue at this US branch of the Boeing. The problem goes into a high-level definition. Announcement - Russian and Chinese, please exit. (they are allowed only to narrow problems).
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 17 August 2012 09: 20
      +7
      Quote: JustMe
      Announcement - Russian and Chinese, please exit


      Yes, the whole scheme is this, our ideas are your gasoline, and money is in your pocket, as a result, specialists who could develop Ily and Tu work in their own country for an American Boeing.
      1. Joker
        Joker 17 August 2012 10: 46
        +5
        And all because the conditions and wages of us are useless.
        1. Gym teacher
          Gym teacher 17 August 2012 11: 09
          +5
          Quote: Joker
          And all because the conditions and wages of us are useless.

          Because production works in the USA
          How many planes does Boeing make? I think many fans of the theory of the "printing press" will drop their jaw - 2 airliners a day!
          1. FID
            FID 17 August 2012 11: 22
            +6
            Where do these numbers come from? 2 cars a day is more than 700 a year. Where did this Boeing report this? Or just blah, blah?
            1. curious
              curious 17 August 2012 11: 48
              +4
              That's when we ourselves will learn to appreciate and respect our ENGINEERS, and not newly-born lawyers and economists, only then we will have everything wonderful! American head hunters roam around the world in search of talent and lock them up, and we pull to the last
            2. Gym teacher
              Gym teacher 17 August 2012 12: 15
              +2
              Quote: SSI
              Where do these numbers come from? 2 cars a day is more than 700 a year. Where did this Boeing report this? Or just blah, blah?


              Airbus is again behind Boeing:
              http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-airbuss-late-push-sees-off-bo

              eing-again-351934 /

              Look at the table. everything is clear there

              Quote: SSI
              2 cars a day is more than 700 a year.

              Yes, for the Russian aviation industry this sounds like a joke
              1. FID
                FID 17 August 2012 12: 30
                +5
                If you look at the Boeing press release, you’ll read that in 2011 287 civilian aircraft (of all modifications) were produced, and for the first half of 2012 - 150 aircraft (mb. You mean ALL Boeing products, but we say only about civilian products).
                1. Gym teacher
                  Gym teacher 17 August 2012 12: 45
                  +4
                  Quote: SSI
                  If you look at the Boeing press release, you’ll read that in 2011, 287 civilian aircraft (of all modifications) were produced, and for the first half of 2012 - 150 aircraft


                  You underestimated the figure by half. From January to July 2012, the Boeing delivered 332 civilian airliners to customers.
                  Here is the official Boeing press release:
                  http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm?content=displaystandardrepo

                  rt.cfm & optReportType = CurYrDelv
                  1. FID
                    FID 17 August 2012 13: 13
                    +3
                    Supply and production are slightly different things, do not you find? You can put already made last year.
                    1. Gym teacher
                      Gym teacher 17 August 2012 13: 24
                      +4
                      Quote: SSI
                      Supply and production are slightly different things, do not you find?

                      No, I can’t find it. It is more profitable for a commercial organization to fulfill the contract and make a profit rather than store 332 aircraft in the warehouse until next year

                      Quote: SSI
                      You can put already made last year.

                      Check out releases from past years.
                      1. FID
                        FID 17 August 2012 13: 49
                        +4
                        Tired of watching releases. What for? The fact that our aircraft industry is rotting - I know without you. I work in it myself. I don’t want to rejoice at the successes of the USA and Europe. Boeing CANNOT build 2 aircraft per day - it is a fact. In releases, you can write everything you need to maintain the image of the company. An example is the election in Russia. More examples to give, or one is enough?
                      2. EJIEKTPOBO3
                        EJIEKTPOBO3 17 August 2012 14: 06
                        +1
                        Quote: SSI
                        In releases, you can write everything you need to maintain the image of the company.

                        At least the theory is confirmed by practice - in the Russian sky Boeing massively fly. And this despite the fact that in 2010 Russian airlines transported 60 million passengers, and US airlines - 700 million passengers. It’s scary to imagine how many Boeings they needed.
                        So 300 planes for half a year is quite a realistic indicator
                        Quote: SSI
                        An example - elections in Russia

                        What relation does the world's largest manufacturer of aerospace engineering have to comrade Churov?
                        Quote: SSI
                        Boeing CANNOT build 2 aircraft per day - it's a fact

                        If only you call a fact, what did you come up with yourself ... winked

                        Boeing Everett Factory, 2011:
                      3. FID
                        FID 17 August 2012 14: 27
                        +1
                        I apologize, which Boeings are flying massively? This stuff was written off a / c, but it is expensive to dispose of it. It’s good that there are our a / c (the trash is strict, but a / k are used to changing planes after the leasing period has expired)! I’ll clarify - 2 civilian aircraft, and come up with something ....
                      4. FID
                        FID 17 August 2012 14: 45
                        +1
                        By the way, are 700 million passengers transported only on Boeing or does the a / c of the USA fly on other planes? Connoisseurs, answer me!
                      5. Vadivak
                        Vadivak 17 August 2012 14: 37
                        +2
                        Quote: SSI
                        Boeing CANNOT build 2 aircraft per day


                        Can
                        Boeing EA-18G GROWLER Deck EW
                        Boeing EC-18 ARIA Aircraft Radio Engineering
                        Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle

                        and other other other
                      6. FID
                        FID 17 August 2012 14: 43
                        +1
                        It was a question of civilian aircraft, and not ABOUT ALL Boeing products manufactured at all divisions of the company.
        2. Civil
          Civil 17 August 2012 12: 03
          0
          Joker,

          and not in the absence of money, the problem is in greed
    2. INTER
      INTER 17 August 2012 13: 07
      0
      As always, recently IVAN during the construction of a skyscraper digs a foundation pit with a shovel ((((((((((((((((
  2. FID
    FID 17 August 2012 09: 36
    +10
    Soon there will be no design bureau in our country at all. In the KB of Tupolev, Ilyushin, Yakovlev, and others (excluding, for now, Sukhoi), only pensioners remained. Visiting the design bureau, I often saw obituaries of department heads and leading specialists. People are leaving, and instead of them - no one! The young are being taken away by Boeings, airbuses. Many go to Sukhoi. Recently, the idea of ​​creating a "global" design bureau in Zhukovsky has been discussed. The question arises: who needs it? The answer is banal - money! Land in Moscow is worth a lot, and each design bureau owns more than one hectare of land in Moscow. Moreover, almost in the center. It is clear that the old people will not go to Zhukovsky. Thus, the life of the famous design bureaus will end. And young people who agree to work in the "global" design bureau will be lured away by high salaries. Boeing and Airbus don't need competitors, they don't! And in the absence of orders for domestic aircraft, competitive with imported ones, the entire aviation industry will die out, or rather turn into a supplier of components made according to Western drawings. It is a pity, of course, I have worked enough in the Soviet aviation industry, the kitchen of designing and creating new aircraft, I know well enough, it is bitter to watch the agony. All these triumphant reports about huge orders for the "breakthrough" super run into reality. Neither domestic nor foreign a / c does not take this plane. Unfortunately, unfortunately, we have to state the slow death of the domestic aircraft industry!
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 17 August 2012 13: 28
      -1
      I will say that it is globalizing. These are the realities. In the West, there were also many aircraft manufacturers; there were only a few units; this is an objective reality that cannot be avoided. With wolves live on wolf howls. Many Soviet people did not know how to bring to whom it was necessary and kickbacks needed to be done.
      Do not take this plane a / c, neither domestic nor foreign.
      Take domestic exactly POGO push it he knows how not to take it from him. And I hope they bring a couple of suitcases to the west.
      Unfortunately, unfortunately, I have to state the slow death of the domestic aviation industry!
      This is the conscious survival of competitors and it is also a reality.
      And what we see from Sukhoi, having no experience in designing an airplane, he lured / gathered / bought personnel. Agreed with suppliers certified and released the aircraft. I managed to promise and agree with many. For this he can be respected. I think in 10 years the old design bureaus will die, only Dry will remain which in 30 years will fall off to new design bureaus.
      1. FID
        FID 17 August 2012 13: 58
        +3
        He will not be able to push through. An empty plane! In Aeroflot (the largest operator of the super), according to the actual operation, they say that the range of the loaded aircraft is 2400 km, instead of the claimed 4300. This should be taken into account.
    2. curious
      curious 17 August 2012 13: 41
      +2
      I would like to hear from you all the same concrete steps out of this situation
      1. FID
        FID 17 August 2012 14: 01
        +2
        But they are not. Nobody has yet raised the dead! Can only cooperation with the Slav brothers? Antonov and I did well (An-148/158).
        1. curious
          curious 17 August 2012 14: 23
          0
          The patient is probably still not completely dead, we just need to cooperate more efficiently, because time is running out inexorably
          1. FID
            FID 17 August 2012 14: 47
            +2
            And where is Poghosyan? Who is slow? We have just a pipe without aviation. What distances. And the Far East and Siberia without aviation is just a dead land! I'm afraid time is already ... But hope is dying last.
      2. Protey
        Protey 17 August 2012 20: 50
        0
        curious,
        Under the Father of Nations, this was done with the help of "sharashki". Now, thank God, times are different, but no one knows how to develop production, and no one wants to know ...
  3. Zerstorer
    Zerstorer 17 August 2012 09: 53
    +3
    These comrades really penetrated deep enough. For example, Progrestech. (http://www.progresstech.ru/about/group/progresstech/).

    And about the fact that there are super-specialists - I don’t know. We have several people working from there - very narrowly specialized specialists. Yes, they know English better, and the rest are the same engineers as we are.
    1. FID
      FID 17 August 2012 10: 15
      +7
      I'll try to object a little. Education systems in the USSR and in the West differed (meaning higher education, he taught sopromat at the university for 8 years). Our education was wider. In addition to his specialty, an engineer knew (it was assumed that he knew) a number of disciplines that could help him in his work. Western education is distinguished by a narrow specialization - the avionic engineer does not know, for example, the basics of aerodynamics. Maybe this is good, but .... I don’t know, I don’t know, about the same engineers. Perhaps it is precisely because of such differences that Boeing is pleased to take our engineers who have received a wider education?
      1. Zerstorer
        Zerstorer 17 August 2012 10: 40
        +1
        Quote: SSI
        I'll try to object a little

        I don’t see where we came into conflict with.
        1. FID
          FID 17 August 2012 11: 17
          +3
          We haven’t entered, and I hope to join, we won’t.
      2. Joker
        Joker 17 August 2012 12: 35
        +1
        No, they do not take our engineers because education is wider, because our education is better, I consider it a fairy tale. I will explain why. In the United States, a specialist is trained purely for his future profession, if he is subsequently transferred to another position, then he is trained for it, but with the world, we come to work and it turns out that you don’t know a damn thing from what you need , so you have to learn at work in the process. Suppose I’m going to work as an electrician, and during the 5 years of training they will teach me not only this, but also 20 sciences, but forgive me, why do I need this if you learn everything and you will not learn your main specific science at the proper level. It’s called by the world by a thread, as a result, completely unprepared people leave universities, and we have many scientists, talented designers, BUT, they have such a mindset, they are zealous in learning circuitry, and they will forget some theory of relativity after a year or two , simply because they are not interested in it, and so the conclusion is, why the hell is it needed if you do not need it in the future, is it better to give a person the opportunity to do what he has a predisposition and craving for? Of course, there are basic objects that will be useful to every person, but I consider the complete nonsense to interfere with circuitry and the theory of relativity with some kind of administrative activity.
        1. FID
          FID 17 August 2012 12: 48
          +6
          And who said that administrators teach the theory of relativity? They cannot master the theory of control! An engineer is a person who knows how to work with directories, who knows where to look for the necessary information. A narrow specialist should be a technician who performs only the work entrusted to him!
        2. El13
          El13 17 August 2012 12: 55
          +4
          And I mind. Even if you study at a university only a specialized specialty, having come to production, you will throw everything away and begin to delve into the technology of this production. But if you have gained a wide range of knowledge in a university, then you will easily delve into any private technology and in general will be an interesting educated person.
          1. FID
            FID 17 August 2012 13: 02
            +5
            Very true remark!
          2. Gym teacher
            Gym teacher 17 August 2012 13: 16
            +3
            Quote: El13
            You will discard everything and begin to delve into the technology of this production

            At the university they say: forget what you were taught at school, at work - forget what you were taught at the university ... strange practice
            Quote: El13
            But if you have gained a wide range of knowledge in a university, then you will easily delve into any private technology and in general will be an interesting educated person.

            Mathematics, physics, sopromat, TMM are always taught to engineers. These are the basics and they are in all countries of the world.
            Another thing is that in an American university you can choose additional subjects of interest - from fitness to the history of ancient China.
            1. Zerstorer
              Zerstorer 17 August 2012 14: 26
              +2
              Let's start with the fact that in connection with our idiotic reform of education, there is a reduction in hours in the specialty. It is precisely the very basic sciences that “reduce”. So that's it. Those who studied in my specialty during the Soviet era read much more. And some subjects of the theory of automatic control were not read to us at all. Soon we will be releasing very limited specialists ....
              1. FID
                FID 17 August 2012 14: 49
                +1
                TAU and TAP very, very .... Respect!
            2. El13
              El13 17 August 2012 15: 15
              0
              Quote: Fizruk
              At the university they say: forget what you were taught at school, at work - forget what you were taught at the university ... strange practice

              This is such an expression "forget", I think you understand this, and everyone likes this expression, in fact what happens in school (before) - with each class passed what was earlier, but with greater depth, and the previous knowledge formed the basis.
      3. curious
        curious 17 August 2012 13: 44
        +1
        Higher technical education in the USA does not exist by itself, but solely from the wishes of customers, that is, the same aircraft manufacturing companies
  4. morpekh
    morpekh 17 August 2012 10: 16
    +5
    "That applause at Payne Field was intended specifically for our compatriots, because the Dream Liner is in many ways a Russian project, largely designed in Russia, tested in Russia and made from Russian-made parts!"
    It is here that the author gives out wishful thinking. The applause was for Boeing. Very few people know about the participation of Russians, but it doesn't matter. Applause and laurels go to the winner. No need to deceive yourself, the Russians played the role of intellectual blacks who gave all their knowledge and skills to the glory of the United States. Moreover, most of these Russians are asked not to call them Russians, such as the inventors of graphene, and are very angry and perplexed when we address them as if we were family. If there are objections that there is a Boeing Design Bureau in Russia, and other international cooperation, then this is also self-deception - people who have ended up in foreign divisions of international super corporations sleep and see how to get into the Head Office and naturalize. It is true, whether someone believes in it (the truth) or not. Nobody wants to fall out of the cage. And is the contribution of "our" specialists as huge as they are presented here? I think the Hindus and the Chinese have done no less, but something of victory screams from them is not heard ...
    1. Zerstorer
      Zerstorer 17 August 2012 10: 38
      +1
      Quote: morpekh
      Moreover, most of these Russians are asked not to call them Russian

      Quote: morpekh
      people who have fallen in foreign divisions of international supercorporations are asleep and see how to get into the Head Office and naturalize.


      People are different. You do not need all to fit in one comb.
    2. curious
      curious 17 August 2012 13: 46
      0
      Totally agree
  5. Santa Fe
    17 August 2012 10: 56
    +4
    Quote: SSI
    In the design bureau of Tupolev, Ilyushin, Yakovlev and others (except for the time being, Sukhoi), only pensioners remained. Visiting the Design Bureau, I often saw obituaries of department heads and leading specialists. People leave, and instead of them - nobody!


    This is the problem of those pensioners. I know a lot of guys who would love to be an engineer in the legendary aviation design bureau Tupolev, Ilyushin or Yakovlev. But the old people hold office until the last - they sit until their death, leaving no room for young

    But Boeing skillfully takes advantage of the situation
    1. FID
      FID 17 August 2012 11: 19
      +6
      Sorry, but I did not see the queues in the personnel departments! And it’s not a matter of understaffing, the departments are empty, you run into the old people in vain, it’s about salaries. Believe me.
    2. Zerstorer
      Zerstorer 17 August 2012 12: 25
      +2
      Let's do it. To work on interesting topics, it is not necessary to be a boss and hold a high position. There are old people who hold office until the last (I can judge by the example of MiG and Sukhoi DGCs), BUT (!) It is really impossible to replace them with young personnel - not the level of knowledge. The problem with the RFP and its size is another question.
      1. FID
        FID 17 August 2012 12: 43
        +6
        I absolutely agree with you! And where do the old people go? The question is purely rhetorical - you cannot live on retirement! And the level of knowledge !! Young people click computers well, but when it comes to competence and the general level of development ..... And the meager salary helps the elderly to stay afloat. That's just terrible. The personnel issue is very acute. I’m retiring soon, but no one is following me. All young people were retrained as lawyers and economists, from whom a little sense.
        1. Gym teacher
          Gym teacher 17 August 2012 13: 07
          0
          Quote: SSI
          And where do the old people go? The question is purely rhetorical - you cannot live on retirement!

          Come on! Young live on the same salary and feed their children, and pensioners are constantly short of pensions ... although you are right in some ways, the standard of living is really low, but this is a common Russian problem
          Quote: SSI
          And the level of knowledge !!

          Sorry, the argument is not rolling. Any tough specialist has a team of students and alternates who can replace him.
          Quote: SSI
          Young people click computers well, but when it comes to talking about competence and the general level of development .....

          Where does special knowledge come from if young people are not hired by KB
          "First, learn to swim, and then we will pour water into the pool" laughing
          Quote: SSI
          All young people were retrained as lawyers and economists, from whom a little sense.

          Not their fault. Many boys would rather go to the factory in KB. what to stand as a seller in Euroset
          1. FID
            FID 17 August 2012 13: 16
            +4
            Fresh food, but difficult to walk! I don't really believe that young people are eager to work. To cut down the dough "in a quick way" is yes.
            1. Justme
              Justme 17 August 2012 13: 39
              +2
              Well, what are you arguing about?
              Real professionals - you need actually a minuscule. If you have computer programs alone, you can safely compete, if not with an entire research institute, then with the departments of this research institute. Small groups can take tasks inaccessible to classical structures. Their problem is that they have violated the role of intelligent engines and a simple mediocre public.
              A simple mediocre person is quite worthy of respect if he is attached to his place and given adequate work.
              But if a leading party of wild mediocrity arises, nothing helps, even if there is a lower and middle level and contains the necessary number of sensible specialists.
              1. Brother Sarych
                Brother Sarych 17 August 2012 14: 40
                0
                And the computer itself will calculate everything, or what?
                1. Justme
                  Justme 17 August 2012 14: 48
                  +2
                  Here I am sitting now - I am setting up one project - it would be better if I designed everything myself - there are no problems, but on internal forks I have to include a bunch of very old and very young m * dacs at the research institute. And a paradox arises - you get pennies from a very budget budget, but in fact you are serving someone’s disability
                  1. FID
                    FID 17 August 2012 15: 01
                    +1
                    One person can set up one project. I’ll try to remind you, we are talking about aviation. To draw an airplane and calculate its aerodynamics is a task for a 3rd year student. Designing and building an airplane is a slightly different task. This is already about people's lives. How many years, in your opinion, have Americans created the Dreamliner. With their developed computer network, with their young and zealous ...
                    Think about it.
                    1. Justme
                      Justme 17 August 2012 16: 13
                      0
                      Maybe I spoke out unsuccessfully, but each task has its own optimal size for the necessary group for its solution, as well as the structure of this group - brain engines and simple gray horses.
                      But if the leadership in such a structure as for example, our research institute is diluted with a penny .. from Muscovites ..local..dostvenichkov .. close your eyes that on an average level - tough clan games .. This wildly depreciates personal efforts and the return on the organization as a whole
                      And now, because of the budget of the research institute of 2 billion rubles, how is all grayness rushing here ..
                    2. Protey
                      Protey 17 August 2012 21: 04
                      0
                      The comparison may not be very correct, but it's like a puzzle. To get something whole and beautiful, you need to select the right ones from the mass of elements and put them in the right place.
            2. Santa Fe
              17 August 2012 13: 41
              +1
              Quote: SSI
              To cut down the dough "in a quick way" is yes.

              Sergey, do you think sellers in the Euroset get a huge salary?
              Many young people would go to work in KB even for modest money than to run as a sales representative
              Quote: SSI
              I don’t really believe that young people are eager to work.

              The state is trying with all its might - "Take everything from life" is the modern Russian national idea. But, I repeat, in addition to thugs majors and gouges, there are many young people who would go to the KB. They don't have much choice: either the KB or the Euroset kiosk

              Quote: Joker
              everyone will work in Boeing, they value youth on the contrary, and a young specialist will come and what he sees, all the places of career growth are filled up by grandfathers, their relatives, children, grandchildren, friends are on their way and what job do they want from him?

              Joker, to the point!
              1. FID
                FID 17 August 2012 13: 54
                +2
                For some reason they choose Euroset. Don't know why? I will repeat myself. KB are deserted. Tupole on the Yauzskaya embankment. You can shout "ay" all day. Ilyushin residents in Leningrad have the same result. People do not stand in lines to the personnel departments!
              2. Raven1972
                Raven1972 17 August 2012 14: 27
                +1
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

                Joker, to the point!

                I will answer you from my own life - my father works as an aircraft technician in the Gazpromavia helicopter squadron in our city. He is 65 already, and the entire contingent in their detachment is mostly pensioners ... Young people do not go to them, salary of 17000 in total, but most importantly - IT IS NECESSARY TO WORK THERE !!! the whole day in hangars or in a parking lot, in the open air ... And not sit at a computer or hang out in the Euroset ... And most importantly, they also need to be taught, young people - how to crawl where and how to do what is right, despite on their aviation education ... Likewise, a young specialist after university - despite knowledge, without practice - this is just a blank for an engineer ... And there is no one to share practical experience with them except old people ...
                1. Protey
                  Protey 17 August 2012 21: 11
                  0
                  Raven1972
                  My dad also worked all his life as an aircraft technician at the airport. So in recent years before retirement (nineties) he said - with the responsibility that young people now regard their work, I will not fly anywhere else!
              3. Brother Sarych
                Brother Sarych 17 August 2012 14: 42
                +1
                It’s been built in the former places! Now, who in their right mind will attach their favorite child in KB? They attach to completely different places ...
          2. Zerstorer
            Zerstorer 17 August 2012 13: 48
            +3
            Quote: Fizruk
            Sorry, the argument is not rolling. Any tough specialist has a team of students and alternates who can replace him.

            I know excellent specialists who have students, but it is unlikely that these students will be able to replace them.
            Quote: Fizruk
            Where does special knowledge come from if young people are not hired by KB
            "First, learn to swim, and then we'll pour water into the pool" laughing

            And then he says that they do not hire? The problem is that some young professionals believe that their have learn. Not guys, the kindergarten is long over ... If you want to learn, do it yourself. Read literature, do self-education, ask your boss for an interesting job for you. Who told you that everything will be on a silver platter?
            I myself am a young specialist. When I got a job at the institute in one design bureau, they told me that we couldn’t take you to the general department, because there are students above the roof. So the problem is not in the elderly. And to say that everyone is guilty except me is not right.
            1. FID
              FID 17 August 2012 14: 05
              +3
              And again, I completely agree! If you want to learn, you will learn! Nobody will cross the road. But, unfortunately, they don’t want to study!
          3. Protey
            Protey 17 August 2012 20: 59
            0
            "Any tough specialist has a team of apprentices and deputies who can replace him."
            If so, then the question arises, why is it needed, so cool?
        2. leon-iv
          leon-iv 17 August 2012 13: 31
          0
          What is your% wage bill in the final cost of production?
    3. Joker
      Joker 17 August 2012 12: 42
      +2
      But the old people hold office until the last - they sit until their death, leaving no room for young

      Bull's-eye good they sit before and after their retirement, do not work and young people are not taught, and the money they pay is not small in their posts, but since they allocate a certain amount of bonuses to the department, etc. then you’ll stay young with kopeks until these grunts are cut and their salaries are scattered young and everyone will be promising to work in a Boeing, on the contrary, they value youth, and we will have a young specialist and what he sees, all grandfathers’s career places are crammed into their relatives, children, grandchildren, friends, and what kind of work do they want from him? Therefore, there are licking, which at least somehow want to break through to the top, and this accordingly spoils the situation in the team. And this is almost universal, well, maybe, with the exception of private firms, some companies for which profit is important and they will not keep old people and incompetent employees.
      1. Zerstorer
        Zerstorer 17 August 2012 14: 00
        +1
        Quote: Joker
        all places of career growth grandfathers clogged

        It’s a matter of business, not a career. Of course, they also need money (family, children). That’s why I have to look for an eternal compromise between work and home, ZP and an interesting topic of work. But if I can’t keep the blow and sell for 30 pieces of silver that I consider the meaning of life - then which one of me is a specialist).
        Quote: Joker
        there are licking

        If the team is normal, then it quickly eliminates this infection.
        1. Joker
          Joker 17 August 2012 14: 18
          0
          It’s a matter of business, not a career.

          Your phrase is absurd do not you think? Those. Are you ready for 15 TR work all my life in one position, right? It is for this purpose that it is intended to earn money, if they would not be needed, then everyone would sit at home. Career growth also provides for a rise in wages, not to be your boss with such views.
          1. Raven1972
            Raven1972 17 August 2012 14: 44
            +1
            Quote: Joker
            Career growth also provides for a rise in wages, not to be your boss with such views.

            When career growth comes at the expense of knowledge and skills - i.e. practice, this is one thing, and when the main thing is the ability to bend in front of the bosses and sit down in the neighbor - fuck me such a career .... That’s why we’ve got such crap that it’s not specialists in our field that climb out, but all the scum that’s knows what to bend and lick on time .... am
            1. Joker
              Joker 17 August 2012 15: 02
              0
              Read about it in my post above. smile
          2. Protey
            Protey 17 August 2012 21: 17
            0
            "This work is intended to earn money, ..."
            On the one hand, this is so, but on the other hand, if Leonardo had done "purely for the money" .... I don’t know, I don’t know ...
    4. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 17 August 2012 14: 38
      0
      Well, yes, yes, the old people are to blame - but how many people want those salaries? In Moscow, the janitor-migrant worker is getting comparable, and the natural Russian has to work very hard to get such a meager salary!
      1. Joker
        Joker 17 August 2012 15: 03
        0
        Brother, old people in some "Constellations" receive from 50 tr. and higher, we are talking about engineers and specialists wink
  6. Forget
    Forget 17 August 2012 11: 23
    0
    Sad, sad. Conclusion vote for Zyuganov and the Communists, no matter what they say, they at least stand on the position of the country's interests. And do not think that having come to power they will immediately revive the CPSU and the USSR, this is already hopeless in the past.
    1. Protey
      Protey 17 August 2012 21: 22
      0
      Forget
      Yes, they talkers and people were not with them, there were MASSES. He lived with me, I know.
  7. tan0472
    tan0472 17 August 2012 12: 41
    +1
    To let the brains of the handy leak
    That Boeing right in TsAGI placed ...

    The fable, their mother ...
  8. Darck
    Darck 17 August 2012 13: 00
    +2
    And everything seems to be not bad. But it does not leave the feeling that behind the rubber smiles of Americans is a wolf grin. I take pride in the Russian scientists who create the most advanced civilian airliners in the world. Aircraft with a fuselage of composites - powerful, safe and economical? Very good. But why this “Boeing”, and not “Tupolev”? Russian science has reaffirmed its prestige ... but all profits have gone overseas. No, I am not against cooperation with foreign partners and exchange of experience in the framework of international research programs. But American specialists have been working at TsAGI for a long time, and why, for example, the Sukhoi Design Bureau does not have its own scientific and technical branch somewhere in the Waterton Canyon research center owned by Lockheed Martin Corporation ?!
    We are ready to cooperate with honest partners. But this, I'm sorry, is a game with only one goal.
    That's what kind of people, work is going on, there is a salary, people are developing, but there are always people who don’t like something. Moreover, Ivanushka has nothing to do with aviation, but he doesn’t like it.
    But American specialists have been working at TsAGI for a long time, and why, for example, Sukhoi Design Bureau does not have its own scientific and technical branch somewhere in the Waterton Canyon research center owned by Lockheed Martin Corporation ?!
    And you ask DRY is ready to invest money? Ready to sponsor? To build the same hospitals, etc. Here you will find the answer. You can also add why Lada viburnum is not going to the States. According to the text there is a feeling that all BOING is supported by Russian engineers and they work only for the States. If you look at the same Superjet, it was created by almost the whole world.
    1. FID
      FID 17 August 2012 13: 27
      +3
      No need to look at what is poorly done! Especially the whole world!
    2. Zerstorer
      Zerstorer 17 August 2012 14: 09
      +2
      I agree with you, the article "went too far". But thanks to this article, we raised the issue of providing our military-industrial complex with personnel.
      But you must admit, if we try to get into their niche and compete (unfortunately, I don’t even see confident attempts in the GA) - they will put pressure on us by all means.
      1. FID
        FID 17 August 2012 14: 35
        +2
        Unfortunately, to our great regret, we have already been crushed. Boeing and Airbus paid 10% commission on the purchase of their aircraft. A certain general, who headed Aeroflot in the past years .... Oh, I’ll fall under the article about slander ...
      2. Darck
        Darck 17 August 2012 15: 01
        0
        But you must admit, if we try to get into their niche and compete
        If it is beneficial to both parties, they will always agree among themselves. The Americans are not shy about buying Russian weapons, helicopters, components for the same Boeing. They do not say all Russian shit because Russian. And Russians have this trend everywhere, the superjet crashed , immediately began to look in the direction of the United States, which could specifically supply defective components, with the same success, Boeing can attribute its accidents, but they do not. Who prevents the Russian bureaus from financing American institutions? linked with regular flights, before flying to 2 times a day, now it at least once in two mesyats.Letal and Boeing, Airbus and Tupolev Tu-160, Tu 204 (of red wings) .From all this, I like Boeing.

        Is Lockheed Martin a sample?
        In a sense, Yes, a very broad-based and powerful company that has achieved very great heights in a short time.
        Can a green card earn?
        If you want, why not, it's up to you.
        1. FID
          FID 17 August 2012 15: 11
          +1
          I did not poke you. Learned to be rude from kindergarten.
          1. FID
            FID 17 August 2012 15: 19
            +1
            On the Tu-160? SPECIALIST!!!!!!!!
            1. Darck
              Darck 17 August 2012 15: 36
              0
              On the Tu-160? SPECIALIST!!!!!!!!
              Tu-154 *
              I did not poke you. Learned to be rude from kindergarten.

              How touchy we are, you’re being rude now, I don’t see something that you should write how you should be treated. Maybe you like when you are called the Tsar, and I will say Mr. and you will be offended again. wink
              1. FID
                FID 17 August 2012 15: 53
                +2
                In Russian (note) to strangers (they may be older in age) it is customary to contact you. This has been taught since childhood. I usually do this. Until they start to be rude. After that, I just stop talking. So brought up.
  9. Darck
    Darck 17 August 2012 14: 04
    -2
    No need to look at what is poorly done! Especially the whole world!
    Here is another reason why DRY is not expected at Lockheed Martin.
    1. FID
      FID 17 August 2012 14: 32
      +1
      Is Lockheed Martin a sample? Is it necessary to sculpt sculptures from him? Or American everything is not a priori subject? Why then live in this boring Russia? Can a green card earn?
  10. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 17 August 2012 14: 31
    +1
    Well, what is there to rejoice, to whip their bump?
    That our designers work for an overseas uncle, that our metallurgists and many more who work for the same overseas uncle?
    And your own industry in a deep pen? And the last forces are working on a whistle on carefully prompted topics of all sorts of superfood jets that no one needs in spirit. But first of all do not need Russia?
    Ugh, honestly, disgusting, or rather it was very offensive to read ...
    1. Protey
      Protey 17 August 2012 21: 31
      0
      Brother Sarych
      The whole world works in cooperation and it's okay that ours are doing for Boeing what we do best. Airbus is all over Europe and no one grumbles.
  11. REPA1963
    REPA1963 18 August 2012 01: 38
    0
    I read komenty, a lot of interesting things, in aviation I’m not special. But it seems to me that we never really had good civilian airliners (flew TU 134,154. IL 86, AN 2) from BTA to IL 76 a good car.
  12. Yuriy-v
    Yuriy-v 12 November 2014 12: 57
    0
    I worked 2 years at Boeing being arranged on IL 2004-2006
    came to zp 12t.r left 15t.r paid (300-450 $)
    Boein paid $ 4000-5000 for me to Ilyushin