ANPA vs AUG

76

In previous articles, we considered the possibilities of detecting aircraft carrier strike groups (AUG) space reconnaissance, stratospheric electric UAVs, high-altitude and medium-altitude UAVs of HALE and MALE class... Immediately before striking the AUG can be arranged "Driven hunting" with the help of a flock of small-sized UAVs based on cruise missiles и destruction of AWACS aircraft in the direction of attack.

Consider another promising area - autonomous unmanned underwater vehicles (AUV).



Let's talk about a few points right away.

Often in the comments to articles something like this is sounded:

"Why talk about what is not?"
"We will never have that."

Etc. etc.

We don't have a lot of things. For example, we actually do not have aircraft carriers (do not count the unfortunate Kuznetsov as such), but talks about its creation have been circulating for more than a decade. We do not have high-altitude UAVs, but a year ago there were no medium-altitude ones, and this year they have already gone to the troops. There are no reusable launch vehicles and the production of satellites in the hundreds and thousands a year, but a couple of years ago no one had this. And we have no fundamental obstacles to master these technologies (but there are many reasons not to master).

In our time, civil and military technologies are rapidly developing, as a result of which (still impossible a decade ago) systems and complexes appear. And we are not talking about mythical "antigravity", but about completely terrestrial technologies, such as laser weapons, which, although it began to be created a long time ago, has only now matured to practical use. Therefore, we will try to take into account the technical forecasts of today and tomorrow. Well, to believe in them or not is a private matter for everyone.

Where to get the money for all this? Everything may not work, but there is more than enough money in the country. The question should be raised rather about their intended / inappropriate use.

Underwater gliders


Previously, we looked at high-altitude electric UAVs, potentially capable of being in the air for months or even years. There is something conceptually similar for fleet.

We are talking about the so-called underwater gliders, which use the effect of underwater gliding by changing the buoyancy and trim. Also, their underwater part can be connected with a cable to the surface, carrying a solar battery and communication antennas.

An example is the Wave Glider apparatus, which has a two-section structure. The hull with the steering gear, lithium-ion batteries and solar panels is connected to the underwater part-frame by a cable 8 meters long. The wings of the frame oscillate and give the Wave Glider a speed of about two kilometers per hour.


Wave glider

Wave Glider has good resistance to storm conditions. The autonomy of the device is 1 year without maintenance. The Wave Glider platform is open source. And various equipment can be integrated into it. The cost of one Wave Glider is about $ 220.


Schemes for moving gliders of different types

Wave Glider is built using civilian technology. And it is used for civilian purposes - to measure seismic activity, magnetic field, water quality in deep-water drilling areas, search for oil leaks, study salinity, water temperature, ocean currents and many other tasks.

For military purposes, Wave Glider devices are being tested for solving problems of finding submarines, protecting ports, reconnaissance and surveillance, picking up weather data and relaying communications.

In Russia, the development of underwater gliders is carried out by JSC NPP PT Okeanos. The first practical example, the MAKO glider, with a working immersion depth of up to 100 meters, was developed and tested in 2012.


Experienced glider MAKO of JSC "NPP PT" Oceanos "

Experts assume the possibility of deploying hundreds and even thousands of underwater gliders in the future, operating within a single distributed network-centric structure. The autonomy of underwater gliders can be up to five years.

Their advantages (in addition to high autonomy) include low cost of creation and operation, low level of their own physical fields, ease of deployment.

If we take as a basis the cost of the Wave Glider apparatus of 220 thousand US dollars, then 200 units worth 44 million US dollars can be produced per year. In 5 years there will be 1000 of them. And in the future, this amount can be maintained at a constant level.

Is it a lot or a little? The area of ​​the world's oceans is 361 square kilometers. Thus, when 260 underwater gliders are launched, there will be 000 square kilometers per 1000 glider (this is a square with a side of 1 km).


One thousand underwater gliders, distributed over the surface of the waters of the World Ocean.

In fact, the water surface area of ​​interest to us will be much smaller, and we will also remove the border waters, the surface covered with ice. And ultimately one underwater glider will fall on a square with a side of the order of 100-200 kilometers.

What can these gliders do? First of all, to solve the tasks of electronic intelligence (RTR) - to detect the radiation of radar stations (radar) of early warning aircraft (AWACS) and radar of anti-submarine detection aircraft (PLO), radio exchange via Link-16 communication channels. It can also detect signals from hydroacoustic buoys operating in an active mode, underwater acoustic communication facilities, and the operation of hydroacoustic stations (GAS) in an active mode.

In Russia, non-acoustic methods are being developed for detecting low-noise targets by wake, thermal and radioactive traces, as well as by trace fields from the movement of propellers under water. It is possible that some of them can be implemented as part of underwater glider equipment.

The aggregate information received via satellite data transmission channels from the entire network of underwater gliders will make it possible with a high probability to detect surface ships, AWACS and PLO aircraft, enemy submarines.

Can a single ship "slip through" hundreds of underwater gliders? Probably yes. Will AUG be able to do this? Unlikely. And the more ships and aircraft in the AUG, the more likely it will be possible to reveal its location.

ANPA vs AUG
AUG ships and aircraft operate on a vast territory, tens of thousands of square kilometers.


Can the enemy detect underwater gliders? Maybe, but not all. And he will never be sure he found them all. The glider itself has minimal visibility, and data transmission to the satellite can be carried out in short bursts.

In addition, as in the case of stratospheric electric UAVs, there is a high probability that there will be many not only military, but also civilian gliders. Detecting and destroying them all will require significant activity from the enemy, which will unmask him in front of other reconnaissance means.

The gliders' tasks will not be exhausted by reconnaissance alone. They can be used to give false signals in the radar and acoustic ranges to deliberately attract the enemy's attention and divert his resources from looking for other threats.

The possibility of using gliders as a kind of mobile minefields cannot be ruled out. However, these will already be much larger, more complex and expensive products.

Autonomous unmanned underwater vehicles


In principle, the underwater gliders discussed in the previous section also refer to light AUVs, but within the framework of this article we will use this abbreviation in relation to unmanned underwater vehicles of a larger dimension.

The Rubin Central Design Bureau of Marine Engineering has carried out R&D work on the Surrogate robotic underwater vehicle.


Image of AUV "Surrogate".

The length of the hull of the AUV "Surrogate" is 17 meters, the estimated displacement is 40 tons. Diving depth up to 600 meters, maximum speed 24 knots, cruising range over 600 nautical miles. The main task of the AUV "Surrogate" is to simulate the magnetoacoustic characteristics of various submarines.


AUV "Surrogate" scheme.

AUVs of the "Surrogate" type can be used to divert enemy anti-submarine forces, to cover the deployment of strategic missile submarine cruisers (SSBNs). Potentially, their dimensions allow them to be placed on the outer hull of multipurpose nuclear submarines (MCSNS) and SSBNs.


Submarine nuclear missile and ballistic boat (SSBN) "Ohio" with small-sized submarines attached to the hull for transporting saboteurs. Likewise, several AUVs "Surrogate" can be fixed on the hull of the MCSAP / SSBN.

Using the AUV "Surrogate", SSNS and SSBNs can both increase their survivability and implement new tactical schemes to counter enemy NK and submarines.

AUV "Surrogate" devices can be considered the "first sign" among such weapons. In the future, their design will become more complicated, and the list of tasks to be solved will expand - this is reconnaissance, and relaying communications, and the use of AUVs as a remote weapon platform, and not only for torpedo weapons or anti-ship missiles (ASM), but also for such submarine-specific weapons, such as anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM).

Placing air defense systems on manned and uninhabited submarines can significantly change the format of war at sea, largely leveling the capabilities of PLO and AWACS aircraft covering the AUG.


In Russia there is a significant groundwork for the creation of an AUV. An example is the deep-water AUV SGP Vityaz-D developed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau MT.


AUV SGP "Vityaz-D" developed by CDB MT "Rubin".

AUV SGP "Vityaz-D" is designed for survey and search and bathymetric surveys, sampling of the upper soil layer, sonar survey of the bottom topography, measurement of hydrophysical parameters of the marine environment. The device has zero buoyancy, titanium alloys and high-strength spheroplastics are used in the design. It is driven by four cruising motors and ten thrusters. The payload includes echo sounders, sonars, hydroacoustic navigation and communication facilities, video cameras and other research equipment. The range is 150 km, the autonomy of the device is about a day.

AUVs of the "Harpsichord" series have also been developed, which exist in two modifications - "Harpsichord-1R", developed by the Institute of Marine Technologies Problems of the Far Eastern Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences (IMPT FEB RAS) and "Harpsichord-2R-PM", developed by the Central Design Bureau MT "Rubin" (most likely, the research was carried out by these organizations jointly).


AUV "Harpsichord-1R" (above) and "Harpsichord-2R-PM" (below).

The weight of the AUV "Harpsichord-1R" is 2,5 tons with a hull length of 5,8 m and a diameter of 0,9 m. The immersion depth is up to 6000 m, the cruising range is up to 300 km, the speed is 2,9 knots. The equipment of the AUV "Harpsichord-1R" includes side-scan sonars, an electromagnetic seeker, a magnetometer, a digital video system, an acoustic profiler, temperature and electrical conductivity sensors. The movement is carried out by rechargeable batteries.

On the basis of the AUV, as well as floating, underwater and frozen hydroacoustic buoys connected via the Gonets-D1M satellites to the command center, the Oceanpribor company plans to create the Positioner navigation and communication system.

The system should provide navigation of the AUV and link them with ground, air and sea control centers in real time using VHF communications, with the possibility of direct control of the AUV.

It can be noted that the existing and prospective AUVs still have a rather limited range. Perhaps this issue can be radically resolved through the widespread use of advanced batteries, power plants for non-nuclear submarines (NNS), or even the creation of compact nuclear reactors similar to those installed on the Poseidon AUV. Such a reactor, if provided with a sufficient resource, can be installed not only in the AUV, but in small-sized nuclear submarines based on non-nuclear and diesel-electric submarines. We discussed this issue in detail in the article Nuclear Reactor for NAPL. Will Poseidon lay Dollezhal's egg.


Diagram of a reactor with a liquid metal coolant, presumably installed on the Poseidon AUV.

The AUV "Poseidon" itself is also of interest. Even if we do not consider the possibility of hitting AUG ships directly with the nuclear warhead of the AUV "Poseidon", it can be effectively used to open the AUG stealth mode.

Within the framework of solving this problem, reconnaissance equipment and / or equipment for simulating the magnetoacoustic characteristics of various submarines can be installed on the Poseidon AUV instead of a nuclear warhead. The mass of the Poseidon AUV is about 100 tons. This will make it possible to accommodate rather massive equipment on it, and a nuclear reactor is able to provide it with the necessary energy.


AUV "Poseidon"

After the initial detection of AUG by means of space reconnaissance by means of radar images and / or a wake (even if they will lose it in the future), by means of RTR of high-altitude UAVs by the activity of AWACS aircraft (even if they will be subsequently shot down) and underwater gliders by intercepting communication channels Link -16 and non-acoustic signs, several conventional AUVs "Poseidon-R" are sent to the supposed zone of the AUG movement. They should move at maximum speed, with the greatest possible sharp and unpredictable change in trajectory and diving depth (up to 1000 meters).

On the one hand, this will allow the enemy's PLO to detect the Poseidon-R AUV. On the other hand, their defeat will be difficult due to their high (up to 110 knots) speed and complex trajectory. Periodically, at irregular intervals, the speed of the Poseidon-R AUV should be reduced for a short period of time to ensure the efficient operation of the GAS.

The enemy cannot know that it is the Poseidon AUV with a nuclear warhead or the Poseidon-R AUV performing the reconnaissance function. Consequently, the enemy will in no way be able to ignore this situation and will be forced to throw all available forces to destroy the Poseidon-R AUV, to carry out an evasion maneuver. This will lead to the takeoff of PLO aircraft and helicopters, an increase in the speed of movement of surface ships and submarines, an intensive radio exchange between them, the release of hydroacoustic buoys, torpedoes and depth charges.

The range of the Poseidon-R AUV, which is over 10 kilometers, will allow them to “drive” the AUG for days, which, as a result, with a high probability will lead to its detection by various reconnaissance means.

Conclusions


In the medium term, the ocean can be saturated with a large number of light AUVs - underwater gliders capable of continuously monitoring the environment for several years, forming a distributed reconnaissance network that controls a huge area of ​​the water surface and depths. This will significantly complicate the task of covert movement of naval and aircraft carrier strike groups, and, in the future, single ships and submarines.

In turn, "heavy" AUVs can be used as slave companions for surface ships and submarines, which can be used for reconnaissance, relay communications, or used as a remote weapon platform. They take on the main risks of being destroyed by the enemy. In the future, many combat missions of the AUV will be able to solve completely autonomously. In particular, to conduct reconnaissance and relay communications as part of distributed network-centric intelligence and communications systems.

The high technical characteristics of the Poseidon AUV with a nuclear engine make it possible to consider it not only as an instrument of strategic nuclear deterrence, but also as a basis for creating a complex that can be used to open the location of the AUG.

Together, AUVs of various types will form another reconnaissance "layer" that complements the capabilities of satellite reconnaissance, stratospheric electric UAVs and high-altitude / medium-altitude UAVs of the HALE and MALE class.
76 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +6
    19 December 2020 05: 56
    I suggest opening the "Sandbox" section on the site, where such children's fantasies will be placed.
    1. +3
      19 December 2020 06: 27
      Quote: Undecim
      I suggest opening the "Sandbox" section on the site, where such children's fantasies will be placed.


      That's right ... And the decoding of the SSBN abbreviation in the article looks completely unprofessional, indeed, almost childish:
      Submarine nuclear missile and ballistic boat (SSBN) "Ohio"

      If you decipher "SSBN", then at least this:
      Nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine / carrier / (SSBN)

      Or in a more detailed and explanatory format:
      Strategic missile submarine cruiser (SSBN) is a nuclear submarine armed with intercontinental ballistic missiles (SLBMs) ​​corresponding to its class
      1. +7
        19 December 2020 10: 39
        SSBN is a well-established abbreviation since the early 60s. (nuclear submarine with ballistic missiles) see Marine Atlas, vol. 3, part 2, 1966.
    2. +4
      19 December 2020 09: 45
      What fantasies? The author wrote everything that already exists in the series and in the form of prototypes. The truth is not with us, but with the United States and the countries of the "West"

      1. -1
        19 December 2020 10: 17
        The Poseidon-type vehicles and their carriers under development should be oriented toward reconnaissance and anti-aircraft defense missions.
      2. +2
        19 December 2020 10: 49
        From reality, the author has only names and pictures.
        This is how the connection with the AUV looks in reality on the western promising models:

        Wireless local area network (Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11g) operating range - 300 m (optimal range - 150 m)
        Satellite communications: Iridium
        Hydroacoustic communication system: tracking AUV coordinates, receiving system status messages, range - 1200 m
        Data extraction: wired local area network (Ethernet) or wireless local area network (Wi-Fi)


        And this is how the real work of AUV looks like:
        Mission planning
        AUV launch, system check, mission loading into on-board computer
        AUV descent, command for execution
        Monitoring mission progress
        Ending the mission at the finish point, lifting the AUV on board
        Data extraction and analysis
        1. +1
          19 December 2020 22: 31
          This is how the connection with the AUV looks in reality on the western promising models ...

          Elon Musk's 12 Starlink satellites will radically change the situation.
          1. +1
            19 December 2020 22: 34
            They will not change, the problem there is not in satellites, there are still enough of them, the problem is in the submerged data transmission.
      3. +1
        19 December 2020 16: 59
        This is how the author writes about the United States, European countries and expresses his dreams and wishes regarding Russia. There is a good saying: what does not happen in the world! Why forbid a person to DREAM? laughing
    3. +1
      18 February 2021 16: 44
      plans of this kind are constantly being discussed in many fleets and are sometimes implemented.
      for example, the German anti-submarine network in the Gulf of Finland or the US location line in the Atlantic Ocean. I don't see anything strange in their implementation.
      But I don't like that the ocean is littered with some kind of military junk in peacetime.
      I would accept some duty stations, which, if necessary, spread such devices and a deployed network in their squares, covering their territorial waters and shores, but not placing trash all over the ocean.
      In addition, I have big questions for communication - will we be able to use such a network?
  2. 0
    19 December 2020 05: 57
    The glider network is interesting. It is high time.
    But I did not understand about a nuclear power plant. Perhaps it will be a little expensive.
  3. +5
    19 December 2020 06: 10
    AUTONOMOUS NON-CONTROLLED UNDERWAY vehicles, in real time using VHF communications and with the possibility of direct control, carrying out reconnaissance and relaying communications - this is powerful! laughing wassat fool

    Even more beautiful than Poseidon, chasing AUG along unpredictable trajectories!
    1. -2
      19 December 2020 12: 47
      data transmission to the satellite can be carried out in short bursts

      System "Messenger" is already available! The case is small ...
      1. +2
        19 December 2020 14: 46
        Case for small ...

        Abolish the laws of physics and the meaning of the word "autonomous"? laughing wassat
        1. 0
          19 December 2020 15: 01
          I do not see any special violations of the laws, but I consider huge funds to be small and greediness the inertia of the leadership of the Navy.
          1. +2
            19 December 2020 17: 16
            I don't see any special violations of laws


            Sad, what else to say?

            Radio and satellite communications with underwater objects are not possible with conventional radio and satellite networks.
            More precisely possible but at ultra-low frequencies
            76 Hz as in the USA or 82 Hz as ours requiring transmitting feeders 50 km long and there is no question of any amount of data and control there.
            1. +1
              19 December 2020 17: 38
              The pop-up antenna has already been invented or not yet, will you remind me?
              1. +2
                19 December 2020 17: 57
                Of course it was invented, and for a long time.

                It is a pity that you have little idea of ​​what it is.
                But I will tell you:
                Submarine immersion depth with radio reception in the ranges:
                SDV, DV 100-60 m
                SV, KV 85 - 50 m
                Submarine speed with radio reception 2,5-4 knots
                Cable antenna length 700 m

                A 700-meter tail, imperceptibly dragging behind the AUV crawling at shallow depths at 4 knots - it's cool! And most importantly - very imperceptibly. laughing
                1. 0
                  19 December 2020 18: 31
                  Quote: Lex_is
                  700 meter tail, imperceptibly dragging behind the AUV, crawling at shallow depth at 4 knots - it's cool

                  You are all about long waves, towed antennas and full-size submarines.
                  Communication from a submerged position using a VBAU based on a floating cable, in the floating end of which the matching devices and antennas are mounted high frequency ranges. This solution is used mainly in satellite communication ranges

                  http://janto.ru/repository/014/01.html
                  Well, the word "pop-up" is not the word "towed" only with errors, it is a completely different word.
                  1. +1
                    19 December 2020 18: 37
                    It is a pity that you could not even master your own link, there is exactly what I told and wrote.

                    But it happens that not everyone succeeds.
                    1. -1
                      19 December 2020 18: 41
                      Quote: Lex_is
                      It is a pity that you could not even master your own link, there is exactly what I told and wrote.
                      Come on, all of you broadcast on DV and SDV, and I'm talking about HF and SV. there is even a picture about an antenna on a string floating on the waves, take a closer look.
                      1. +2
                        19 December 2020 18: 54
                        there is an antenna on a string floating on the waves, take a closer look.

                        This is a VBAU, 30 years ago with a lifting loop antenna for communication and navigation on the Parus satellite system, which is the same crap, but even more hemorrhoid and with significantly less capabilities for receiving data transmission. The cable system is its development.
                      2. -2
                        19 December 2020 18: 58
                        So all the same, long ago invented for medium and short waves?
                        Quote: Lex_is
                        This is VBAU, 30 years old with a lifting loop antenna for communication and navigation on a satellite system
                        And that, everything, in the development of communications have stopped since then? Can you master this?
                      3. +2
                        19 December 2020 19: 05
                        No, they didn't stop. But fundamentally nothing has changed and will not change.
                      4. -1
                        19 December 2020 20: 37
                        Nevertheless, with certain restrictions, there is a connection with submarines. It can also be created in the interests of receiving data from unmanned underwater vehicles and transmitting control commands to them, incl. based on the development of previously used solutions. The obvious directions of development are increasing the noise immunity of channels, creating a developed constellation of low- and medium-orbit satellites, and creating a ground constellation of surviving transmitting centers.
                2. -5
                  19 December 2020 18: 37
                  The UUV with a non-magnetic titanium body without division into compartments and on-board equipment, mounted on a single chassis, has a magnetic antenna in the form of a coil of millimeter wire, deployed several kilometers long, fixed on the inner side of the body.
  4. -3
    19 December 2020 08: 17
    You can think of many options, but, in general, the direction is promising for the Russian fleet. In particular, "Poseidons" will have something to do. For implementation, it is necessary to create an appropriate communication and control system.
  5. +6
    19 December 2020 09: 01
    What legal status will these waterfowl have, which determines their ownership and inviolability? What will prevent in peacetime "trawlers in civilian clothes" from catching or simply sinking these objects?
    Five years ago, the Chinese did not stand on ceremony with similar American products.
    1. -1
      19 December 2020 10: 47
      In peacetime, they are not particularly needed in large quantities; training service in the waters close to its own shores will do well. They should be massively deployed in the world's oceans in the pre-war period. As for "catching or drowning corny", it is very difficult to distinguish Poseidon under water from an ordinary submarine, you can mix it up and run into an answer.
      1. +1
        20 December 2020 04: 53
        It is unlikely that it will be possible to quickly and covertly deploy a global network of such devices in the pre-war period, and besides, those produced in advance will probably deteriorate in warehouses.
        Distinguishing Poseidon under water, of course, is not easy, but although we understand that Russian equipment does not break, a small glitch (including in the self-liquidator) is not excluded and the emerging Poseidon will fall into the wrong hands.
        1. -1
          20 December 2020 08: 12
          Secretly, of course, it will not work, but it is not necessary if we are not the initiator of the conflict. I did not talk about storage in warehouses, on the contrary, I wrote that the devices should be operated near their own shores, at least for training operators. Of course, there is a possibility of Poseidon falling into the wrong hands, which means that it is necessary to constantly work on this problem. By the way, you have identified another serious drawback of unmanned / unmanned vehicles.
    2. -2
      19 December 2020 10: 52
      Quote: Yuri V.A.
      What legal status will these waterfowl have, which determines their ownership and inviolability? What will prevent in peacetime "trawlers in civilian clothes" from catching or simply sinking these objects?
      Five years ago, the Chinese did not stand on ceremony with similar American products.


      Good question that applies to all UAVs in neutral space. As for "catching", it is quite simple to wean - certain algorithms are laid that, in a certain situation, undermine the product, when one or two of these things explode on the trawler and form a couple of dozen corpses that want to diminish sharply.

      As for drowning - so they will have to be found, identified, otherwise you can sink your own or just civilians, then somehow implement "drowning" - a torpedo will be more expensive than a glider, perhaps a depth charge. But the very fact of hunting can be "discovered" and have consequences.

      As for complex AUVs, hunting them can become a victim yourself, because they can be a weapon platform and, if an attack is detected, receive an order to use weapons. In addition, in essence, this will be small submarines, inconspicuous in themselves, and their carrier may be nearby, which will establish the fact of an attack and take appropriate measures.

      PMSM, of course there will be cases, but not systemically, and so - to crap on the sly. In the event of an aggravation of the situation (the pre-war period), of course, the hunt for gliders will begin, but you can always not release them all at once, but keep a couple of hundred in warehouses - one of their advantages, the possibility of quick deployment, incl. aviation.

      And again, speaking of gliders, the enemy can never be sure that he has caught everything, this will leave an imprint on the tactics of using AUG.
      1. +1
        19 December 2020 12: 25
        So this is the question - what are the consequences, who will present, on what basis? It is one thing to have someone else's surface warship in neutral waters under the state flag or a submarine that has surfaced, and another thing is an incomprehensible device that has landed on its tail or swarmed nearby with incomprehensible intentions. How does this device distinguish simple interest from hostile intent? And it is unlikely that the device will be lassoed, the device will be pulled out onto the deck, the field sapper, having discovered an unfamiliar design, does not run to show it to his comrades.
        1. 0
          31 January 2021 09: 02
          Catch her first if she's so smart. Glitches there are as likely as a meteorite in the head. In general, the author misses that the basis of naval reconnaissance and target designation in the defensive doctrine of the Russian Federation is over-the-horizon ionospheric radars such as Container, Volna, Sunflower, Taurus and others.
          1. 0
            31 January 2021 11: 01
            Well, not all are so inhibited, I have to repeat - the Chinese have already caught a bunch of trophy flying drones, there are no glitches except in a brick, and, probably, he has already found the right head once.
            1. 0
              31 January 2021 11: 23
              Do not confuse the rails with the rocker arm, the Chinese jammed the drone signal to make the operator go blind, the drones are old of their intelligence only for landing. Do you think electronics often fail? There is nothing to fail, nothing to wear out. Your phone without stupid interference, at least one glitch?
              1. 0
                31 January 2021 11: 56
                Everything mixed up - the old blind operator on the rails disappeared behind the horizon in sunflowers ... The Chinese fished out an underwater vehicle.
                1. 0
                  31 January 2021 12: 15
                  Monkeying is not good, of course I understand that you are resting here and it is dumb for you to admit that you are so smart and stumped. Well, tell me, what was your dad guarding especially important?
                  1. 0
                    31 January 2021 13: 57
                    It’s so important and difficult that you don’t understand and, in general, leave me alone, tired.
                    1. -1
                      31 January 2021 14: 12
                      And you go to sleep.
                    2. -1
                      31 January 2021 14: 15
                      Although you won't fall asleep, like a curse to work?
  6. 0
    19 December 2020 10: 27
    Yes, unmanned vehicles are a trend. In the air unconditional, at sea and on land in development. Soon it will be pointless for submarines to go out to sea, as soon as they leave, their actions will be controlled by the UAV. It will be better located in a closed water basin - like Baikal - where the BPA will be more difficult to get. Although they will get there.
  7. +4
    19 December 2020 10: 27
    Fir-trees! These anti-aircraft complexes on submarines were given to the Author! Well, okay there were attempts to vpendyurit zuras on submarines for "extreme" self-defense! But the Author dreams of creating sea underwater hunters for eroplanes! And in this case, you will need "anyway" a surface module with passive and active means of detection and target designation ... moreover, it is unlikely that it will be tiny! Enemy anti-submarine weapons will acquire radars with AFAR, capable of detecting a "bird" at a decent distance, and these modules become "informers", even without active means!
    1. 0
      20 December 2020 22: 43
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Fir-trees! These anti-aircraft complexes on submarines were given to the Author! Well, okay there were attempts to vpendyurit zuras on submarines for "extreme" self-defense! But the Author dreams of creating sea underwater hunters for eroplanes! And in this case, you will need "anyway" a surface module with passive and active means of detection and target designation ... moreover, it is unlikely that it will be tiny! Enemy anti-submarine weapons will acquire radars with AFAR, capable of detecting a "bird" at a decent distance, and these modules become "informers", even without active means!


      The PLO forces are low-maneuverable airplanes and helicopters operating at low altitude. They have nowhere to hide in the ocean. And there are not so many of them. The suddenly appeared air defense system is able to endure everything in sight, at least until the PLO aircraft have laser self-defense weapons. And the crews of the PLO aircraft, which will arrive to replace the downed ones, will feel well, very uncomfortable, because they will understand that they can repeat the fate of their predecessors.

      As for laser self-defense weapons, the US is not planning to supply Virginia with laser weapons with a capacity of about 500 kW for a reason, and they do not bother with air defense systems on submarines. It is possible that their analysts believe that this is a more promising solution.
      1. 0
        21 December 2020 09: 01
        Quote: AVM
        The PLO forces are low-maneuverable airplanes and helicopters operating at low altitude.

        Low heights are not "dogma"! The low altitude of anti-submarine aircraft is largely determined by the technical capabilities of the equipment (detection means), "designed" to detect the submarine at depth! When the task is to detect the antenna system of the submarine's air defense missile system using a "highly sensitive" radar with an "advanced" AFAR, and even more so the radio emission of the submarine (or laser ...) is not needed at a low altitude (!) ... and the detection range of the submarine will increase! Now is the "finest hour" of unmanned aerial vehicles ... sea anti-submarine UAVs will soon appear (and already appear ...)! And "PLO aircraft crews" will have no need to be afraid!
        1. 0
          21 December 2020 17: 49
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Quote: AVM
          The PLO forces are low-maneuverable airplanes and helicopters operating at low altitude.

          Low heights are not "dogma"! The low altitude of anti-submarine aircraft is largely determined by the technical capabilities of the equipment (detection means), "designed" to detect the submarine at depth! When the task is to detect the antenna system of the submarine's air defense missile system using a "highly sensitive" radar with an "advanced" AFAR, and even more so the radio emission of the submarine (or laser ...) is not needed at a low altitude (!) ... and the detection range of the submarine will increase! Now is the "finest hour" of unmanned aerial vehicles ... sea anti-submarine UAVs will soon appear (and already appear ...)! And "PLO aircraft crews" will have no need to be afraid!


          Yes, but no one forces a submarine to "hunt" an PLO aircraft, it can only use an air defense system in case of an attack. And if we are talking about an AUV equipped with an air defense missile system, then in some cases it can sacrifice it altogether, sending the AUV to actively divert the PLO forces (it is unlikely that something will more distract the ASW aircraft than shelling them with anti-aircraft missiles), while she herself will continue to carry out the combat mission ...
  8. -3
    19 December 2020 11: 36
    Thanks to the author for the ability to think independently and not stereotypically and for a sober look at the issues of combating AUG in the modern period of time. drinks
  9. -9
    19 December 2020 12: 01
    The Russian Federation is not a rogue of the USA and the EU: we do not need attack AUVs with a limited range, we have an unlimited-range strike ROV Poseidon with 100 Mtn warheads on board bully

    When the staffing of Poseidons is increased to 100 units and the issue of continuous "glass transition" and radioactive contamination of the 700-km coastal strip of both the Americas, Eurasia (except for Russian territory) and Africa is resolved, it will be possible to specialize several dozen additional UFOs to destroy the enemy's AUG and KUG ...

    Due to the fact that the hydroacoustic noises from the operation of propeller-driven installations of surface ships have a pronounced individual signature, it will not be possible to apply false targets in this area. The low-frequency component of noise from the AUG and KUG ships when they move in the water area with depths of 600 meters (a typical situation for the ocean zone) is taken under water at a distance of up to 700 km.

    Having received external target designation from radio-technical and radar satellites through the ultra-low-frequency Zeus radio transmitter, the UUVs will carry out tracking of weapons outside the PLO zone of ship formations during the entire stay of the AUG and KUG outside the naval bases. Taking into account the speed of the UVA of 180 km / h, the maximum time for approaching the targets will not exceed 4 hours.

    The extremely low displacement (40 tons) and power of the power plant in cruise mode (hundreds of kilowatts), as well as the non-magnetic titanium hull and the large immersion depth of the UVA (1500 meters) will protect them from detection by means of coastal, naval and aviation anti-submarine defense of the enemy, which will reduce the tracking distance of the weapon is practically up to the radius of destruction by a nuclear explosion without rapprochement with the AUG and KUG - i.e. almost instantly after receiving a radio command to attack.

    The power of a 100 Mtn nuclear fusion charge will make it possible to destroy and disable (depending on the distance of the craft to the epicenter of the explosion) all AUG and KUG ships.
    1. 0
      19 December 2020 17: 49
      The above scheme for the use of NPA "works" through "Zeus", but "Zeus" is in one copy and is not protected. Removed "Zeus", there is no scheme and NLA is not needed. Those. such schemes cannot be collected from now ready-made parts, a systematic approach and design are needed.
      1. -7
        19 December 2020 18: 26
        How to remove "Zeus" located on our territory with antennas at a depth of 10 km - a nuclear explosion? But this is the beginning of the war.

        And as backup radio transmitters of super-long waves, you can always use overhead power lines with a carrier frequency of 50 Hertz, which are like dirt in Russia.

        Systems approach in action laughing
  10. +3
    19 December 2020 12: 27
    "Why talk about what is not?"
    It is generally useful to think and try to analyze, the main thing is not to get hung up on obsessions, such as the search and destruction of aircraft carriers.
    a year ago there were no medium-altitude ones, but this year they already went to the troops
    they are not there now, and individual prototypes could not go to any troops. Do not mislead people.
    we have no fundamental obstacles to master these technologies
    lag in high-tech equipment electronics, is not it a fundamental obstacle?
    suggest the possibility of deploying hundreds and even thousands of underwater gliders in the future, operating within a single distributed network-centric structure.
    And how does this concept differ from the long-used fields of airborne reconnaissance buoys? The average speed of the mentioned gliders is in the range of 1-2 km / h, that is, they cannot even resist the current properly. Technologies are potentially interesting, but there is no need to expect any revolution in this area.
    1. 0
      20 December 2020 22: 36
      Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
      "Why talk about what is not?"
      It is generally useful to think and try to analyze, the main thing is not to get hung up on obsessions, such as the search and destruction of aircraft carriers.


      Just considering the solution to the problem from different angles. I do not believe that AUG in its current form is a tenant in the medium term. For colonial wars only.

      Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
      a year ago there were no medium-altitude ones, but this year they already went to the troops
      they are not there now, and individual prototypes could not go to any troops. Do not mislead people.


      https://rg.ru/2020/10/26/pervyj-peredannyj-v-vojska-bpla-orion-pokazali-na-video.html

      Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
      we have no fundamental obstacles to master these technologies
      lag in high-tech equipment electronics, is not it a fundamental obstacle?


      No, local. It can be solved in different ways. Buy, steal, copy - ideas, technologies, finished products. The world is too complex and full of players with their own interests. Even in the most difficult years of the Cold War, the USSR obtained both the necessary technologies and equipment.

      Quote: Nestor Vlahovski
      suggest the possibility of deploying hundreds and even thousands of underwater gliders in the future, operating within a single distributed network-centric structure.
      And how does this concept differ from the long-used fields of airborne reconnaissance buoys? The average speed of the mentioned gliders is in the range of 1-2 km / h, that is, they cannot even resist the current properly. Technologies are potentially interesting, but there is no need to expect any revolution in this area.


      The concept is somewhat the same, but at a new level. It will still be a more stable and autonomous structure. The speed of 1-2 km / h is not the limit, it can be higher.

      The devil is in the details - satellite communications, better autonomy, some mobility, the ability to change depth, etc. As a result, the glider network can surpass buoys by an order of magnitude in efficiency.
      1. 0
        21 December 2020 17: 59
        I do not believe that AUG in its current form is a tenant in the medium term.

        Aviation is the god of war now and will remain so for the foreseeable future. And this means aircraft carriers will be relevant for a very long time. For any wars.
        According to Orion. When I wrote the previous comment, I thought that there were at least a few flying samples, but the reality exceeded expectations. There is only one flying copy, it took off back in 2016 and it was assigned a military index. The adversaries are already in awe of such breakthroughs.
        No, local.
        it would be local if, say, there was no production of modern IR matrices, but on the other hand, domestic electronics could use high-quality optics. But no, absolutely bad for all fronts. And decide for yourself whether this lag is "fundamental" or "systemic".
        Buy, steal, copy
        in the well-fed 00s, they did just that, bought and "scratched" a lot of licenses and technologies, and then someone decided to play strong and independent ..
        Even in the most difficult years of the Cold War, the USSR obtained both the necessary technologies and equipment.
        I managed to get it only a few times, but I bought all of the above from the unfortunate decaying bourgeoisie for a high price, consistently, regularly and in large quantities.
        As a result, the glider network can surpass buoys by an order of magnitude in efficiency.
        it cannot surpass an order of magnitude in any way simply because a glider is much more expensive and heavier than a buoy, and a speed of 3 km / h will not provide a radical advantage.
  11. +8
    19 December 2020 14: 17
    The series finally left for fantasy
    1. +4
      19 December 2020 17: 20
      But fascinating, not that the gray reality with the construction of ships for 8 years.
      I am already waiting in the next series of the construction of the "Death Star", the final defeat of all the armies of the earth and the beginning of the battle for Mars.
      1. 0
        19 December 2020 21: 18
        We will leave this task to a single-stage aerospace aircraft to a bomber carrier of the same controlled nuclear units like the Vanguard or unmanned orbital fighters in dimensions X 37. I think after 2030 this topic will appear for the Ministry of Defense, and there in the future to protect its interests, resources, etc. to this aircraft and nuclear power plant tied up like a tug for interplanetary travel.
    2. 0
      20 December 2020 22: 27
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      The series finally left for fantasy


      And what is fantasy, Andrey? Everything that is described, with the exception of "Poseidon" in the alleged incarnation of "Poseidon-R", is not my "inventions", but the respective development organizations. And glider networks, and "Surrogate", and "Positioner".

      As already noted in the comments, our opponents' "ideas" go far beyond.
  12. 0
    19 December 2020 14: 28
    A $ 220 device cannot contain intelligence, they are expensive, they need energy, moving with the energy of waves is good, but it is not enough.
    It would be nice to make cheap imitators of submarines, to release 500 pieces into the Pacific Ocean, mainly in the places of deployment and duty, let the states reveal the real one.
  13. -4
    19 December 2020 16: 20
    The article is correct, but in it only "Poseidon" can really threaten the AUG. I’m wondering why everyone decided that "Poseidon" is purely a yadrenobaton or a scout !? Or maybe it has high-speed torpedoes or Onyx? And who said that the AUG needs to be searched for in the seas-oceans, you can control the approaches, since the Poseidon can wait for a long, very long time.
  14. +1
    19 December 2020 17: 08
    Great fiction, especially this one:
    The range of the AUV "Poseidon-R", which is over 10 kilometers, will allow them to "drive" the AUG for days,
    this way we are completely driving the Americans.
    1. 0
      20 December 2020 22: 23
      Quote: Fan-Fan
      Great fiction, especially this one:
      The range of the AUV "Poseidon-R", which is over 10 kilometers, will allow them to "drive" the AUG for days,
      this way we are completely driving the Americans.


      And what is the fantasy? If it has a liquid metal nuclear reactor, then this is not surprising. The information, one might say, is almost official.
  15. +1
    19 December 2020 17: 16
    Well, I don’t know, I, like Sauron, would cast a ring of omnipotence and even the enemy’s nuclear missiles would obey me! am
    1. +2
      19 December 2020 17: 23
      Think fine!
      There is only one ring of omnipotence, and there are tens of thousands of obedient atomic-submarine Drones.

      Large-scale, solid, the boys will respect!
      And the ring is a petty and vulgar relic of the past.
      1. 0
        19 December 2020 17: 34
        But there are passions around the ring! Everyone wants it and with respect, everything is fine too, flashed once at the UN and the ruble became the world's reserve currency good

        And the management of a huge pack of weirdos is a continuous "hemorrhoids", then the software has malfunctioned, then the battery has run out, then it gets tangled in the nets, then the Chinese are trying to mess around and run around all the seas and oceans like crazy wassat
  16. +1
    19 December 2020 21: 41
    Respect. Well, gliders and underwater drones of the Maltsa give off exoticism and fantasy. Therefore, mattresses went the tried and tested way. Namely, the creation of surface drones with such a normal displacement of 2-2.5 thousand tons! Well, at least in their press, such parameters were announced.
    Considering that in such a displacement it is possible to cram all sorts of things in terms of lighting both surface and underwater conditions. And also the fact that AI in terms of navigation and shipbuilding has already been tested. Then you can not go to the grandmother, but confidently assert that mattresses rivet such pelvis quickly and in sufficient volumes to create mobile lines on the way of deploying our nuclear submarines or to close the cover of entire areas. Well, they are perfect as bait. For siphoning on the air can be no worse than AUG.
    So as long as they have not rushed to the gap, we can think about building something in this regard.
    But again, everything rests on the absence of reliable automated power plants and an elementary base for creating AI and everything related to autonomous work for months.
    And this gap did not arise today or yesterday.
    You can remember as an example the former Doychevsky Nuremberg, which we had Admiral Makarov. With Everything! Documentation and German specialists, ours were not able to establish the work of automation and the watch in the boiler room and the engine room was 3 times more than that of the Germans in terms of staff and fact!
  17. +3
    20 December 2020 01: 20
    AUG will continue to dominate the vastness of the world's oceans for a long time to come. a fleet with air support will always be stronger than a fleet without air support
  18. +1
    20 December 2020 14: 18
    Do I understand correctly that under international maritime law, a ship without a crew can be equated to a sea prize and turned into its own property?
    1. 0
      20 December 2020 22: 19
      Quote: mongol9999
      Do I understand correctly that under international maritime law, a ship without a crew can be equated to a sea prize and turned into its own property?


      This situation will be resolved in any case, I recently wrote an article about uninhabited surface ships. There are a lot of projects of such ships, incl. civilians. So, legally, the situation will be clearly regulated.

      The military has an advantage, as always. If the NOC or AUV are armed, an attack on them can cause an automatic reaction - a retaliatory attack or self-destruction by ramming the enemy and self-detonating.
  19. 0
    20 December 2020 18: 48
    I support Andrei Mitrofanov, respected Andrei Mitrofanov dealt with his truth a crushing blow to the outdated anachronisms of retrograde concepts of huge visible aircraft carrier monsters. ... Indeed, the war in Karabakh showed that large visible objects become anachronisms and perish in batches. The future belongs to the UAV, and the underwater counterparts of the UAV, the main thing is stealth and mobility ... the 21st century is no longer the 19th, the NTR does not stand still, And while the retrogrades supporters of unnecessary and vulnerable anachronisms = surface monsters still only dream of AB, they will not become obsolete built, because they were outdated back in 1903.
  20. 0
    20 December 2020 19: 14
    The question is: after all, a nuclear reactor launched into a "runaway" is also a bomb in its essence? So let's say the same "reconnaissance Poseidon" may not arrange a bad "Bach".
  21. +1
    21 December 2020 11: 02
    For example, we actually do not have aircraft carriers (do not count the unfortunate "Kuznetsov" as such), but talks about its creation have been circulating for decades.
    - my favorite question is "WHY?" That is why the Russian Federation needs an aircraft carrier to defend the COAST? Okay 1, well, we will make a maximum of 2 for a grouping to support operations like Syria, but here we don't need to be equal to the United States and their armadas. Look at France, Italy, Britain or Japan - there are no really large groups with aircraft carriers at the head. So for us this is some kind of new arms race, accompanied by a standing ovation from jingoistic patriots. Stupid, pointless, but a lot of pathos and a ditched budget.
    laser weapon, which, although it began to be created a long time ago, has only now matured to practical use.
    - well, a laser in the atmosphere (except for the lunar and with a stretch of the Martian) is generally not particularly effective. So, to knock off the course or to light up the guidance systems (and even then, if they are used in microelectronics or there digital matrices are used, but with lamps and cheap "camera-soap boxes" it is not effective).
    If we talk about the topic of the article (s), then, it seems to me, it is worth looking for a solution to the safety of the ocean and the detection of ships, submarines in some kind of hybrid version: AUV and UAV (better satellite), or AUV and stratospheric weather balloons ... In general, similar concept.
    1. 0
      21 December 2020 15: 00
      Quote: dragon_13364
      ... - well, a laser in the atmosphere (except for the lunar and with a stretch of the Martian) is generally not very effective ...


      This is a grave error.

      https://topwar.ru/167342-sekrety-kompleksa-peresvet-kak-ustroen-rossijskij-lazernyj-mech.html

      PS In order to exclude questions and disputes about the influence of the atmosphere and weather on the operation of lasers, it is highly recommended to study the book by A. S. Boreisho “Powerful mobile chemical lasers”, at least chapter 6 entitled “Propagation of laser radiation at operational distances”.


      And here is the book itself:
      http://www.mathnet.ru/php/archive.phtml?wshow=paper&jrnid=qe&paperid=2828&option_lang=rus
      1. 0
        22 December 2020 08: 12
        ok, I'm not an expert, so I can be mistaken.
        thanks for the link to the book
  22. -2
    22 December 2020 22: 52
    in principle, the idea of ​​underwater drones for reconnaissance is correct, as an option to make them for launching through a TA, or to mount them on nuclear submarines and diesel-electric submarines ... the boat went out to the desired square, launched the drone, it conducted reconnaissance further and transmitted data or put interference. something like a dead piranha to get into the squares and let smaller drones go further ..
  23. -1
    23 December 2020 20: 18
    There are so many articles on this site that extol aircraft carriers in one way or another and almost none about their shortcomings !!! And there are a lot of shortcomings and many of them are serious, systemic and obvious !!!

    What aircraft carriers ??? - the author is apparently in deep delirium ??? Today, missiles are so fast that no one on the ship has time to say "mother" before the aircraft carrier is hit by missiles. Today, rockets are so accurate that they can not just hit the ship itself, but hit its superstructures - thereby turning the floating airfield on its course into a huge drifting trough !!!

    Yes, an aircraft carrier is very difficult to sink - but in a real combat situation, the significant damage to this leviathan is even worse than its sinking !!! Because this unfinished dinosaur will be a brake and a burden for the entire AUG - and also most likely to derail the plans of the entire military operation.

    And in the event of a war with the use of nuclear weapons, any aircraft carrier is a guaranteed mass grave for thousands of its crew members !!!

    The whole history of naval battles - it was almost always the battles of David and Goliath ... And by the way, the Goliaths did not always win !!!
  24. 0
    24 December 2020 14: 37
    defpost.com, December 24

    On December 23, the US Navy issued a request for proposals (RFP) for the design, development and manufacture of large-displacement unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) Snakehead ("snake head", LDUUV).

    With this proposal, the government plans to competitively award a contract with one supplier to manufacture the BPA in FY2021. Proposals are expected in early 2021.

    The Snakehead LDUUV program is led by the Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA) Program Executive Office for Unmanned and Small Combat Vehicles (PEO USC). The draft for this program was published in October.

    The Snakehead LDUUV is a multipurpose long-stay submarine-deployable vehicle with payload reconfiguration capability. It is the largest US UUV to be deployed and deployed from submarines and has been designated as a fast-track acquisition item.

    The snake head will provide guidance and control, navigation, autonomy, situational awareness, basic communications, maneuvering, and other functionalities.

    These vehicles are too large to be launched from submarine torpedo tubes and will thus be fully integrated with the modernized dry deck shelter (Mod-DDS) and payload control system (PHS) on submarines. The first UUVs will be dedicated to Intelligence Operational Environment (IPOE). Future missions may include the deployment of various payloads.

    In February 2019, it was announced that General Atomics Electromagnetic Systems (GA-EMS) had received a contract from Advanced Technology International (ATI) to develop and demonstrate a prototype Lithium Ion Fault Tolerant Battery System (LiFT) for the Snakehead LDUUV prototype.

    http://forum.militaryparitet.com/viewtopic.php?id=30769