Military Review

On the tasks of the UAV in the domestic Navy. Long-range reconnaissance

189

UAV "Orion" on flight tests. Source: © kronshtadt.ru


On the pages of "VO" the idea of ​​using unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for naval war has been repeatedly expressed. This idea is certainly sound. And there is no doubt that in the foreseeable future, UAVs will indeed become an important element of modern war at sea.

But, unfortunately, as is often the case with any new species weapons, UAV capabilities are often absolutized. Simply put, people think that the new weapon has much more potential than it really is. Let's try to impartially study what modern UAVs can and cannot do.

And it will be easiest to do this by comparing two aircraft that have at least a relatively similar purpose. Namely - UAVs RQ-4 Global Hawk and E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, which for the sake of simplicity I will hereinafter refer to as "Hawk" and "Hawkeye", respectively.

Size matters!


Let's take a look at such an interesting indicator as the mass of an empty aircraft. For the Hawk it is 6 kg, while the Hawkai is much more - 781 kg.

Of course, it should be borne in mind that a known part of the Hokai's mass is intended to support the life of its crew (five people, including two pilots and three operators). This includes oxygen supplies, armchairs, an onboard galley, a toilet, an air conditioner ... Obviously, the Global Hawk does not need any of this.

But still (even with the minus of the above), the Hawkai turns out to be noticeably heavier than the Hawk. This means that it carries a larger amount of equipment, or its more powerful samples. Of course, someone might think that life support systems take up the lion's share of the plane's mass. But this is not the case. And the point is this.

The Global Hawk is equipped with the HISAR integrated surveillance and reconnaissance system. It is a simplified and cheaper version of the ASARS-2 complex installed on the famous American U-2 “Dragon Lady” reconnaissance aircraft. As you know, the U-2 is a manned aircraft. However, the empty weight of the latest versions of the Lady is only 7 kg. That is, the difference with the Hawk is not to say that significant.

Onboard radio electronic equipment (avionics)


Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to compare the capabilities of the Global Hawk and Hawkai avionics, due to the lack of publicly available technical characteristics of this equipment. Nevertheless, some general conclusions can still be drawn.


The Hawk's HISAR includes a powerful electro-optical camera, infrared sensors, and, of course, a radar (alas, completely unclear characteristics). It is usually indicated that this radar is capable of scanning and detecting moving targets within a radius of 100 km. At the same time, it is possible to observe with a resolution of 6 meters behind a strip 37 km wide and 20 to 110 km long. And in a special mode, the radar provides a resolution of 1,8 meters over an area of ​​10 square meters. km.

There are more questions than answers. It is indicated that the Hoka radar is designed to monitor ground objects. But does this mean that he cannot control the airspace? Does the 100 km radius apply exclusively to ground targets? Or also to the air? Is this radar adapted to work in a difficult jamming environment?

But what is known for certain is that the Americans themselves are not positioning ASARS-2 as the latest surveillance and reconnaissance complex. It was created back in the 80s of the last century, although since then it has undergone several significant modernizations.

Much less is known about the newest version of the Hawaiian than we would like. The basis of its avionics is the latest AN / APY-9 active phased array radar.

Lockheed Martin (with typical American modesty) declares about it as the best "flying" radar in the world. However, it may very well be that in this particular case, the Americans are absolutely right. It is specifically noted that the AN / APY-9 combines the advantages of mechanical and electronic scanning and is capable of operating in difficult jamming environments.

The adaptation of such a difficult task as the detection of cruise missiles against the background of various underlying surfaces (sea and land) is also regularly mentioned, and in some cases a distance of 260 km is mentioned. Again, it is not clear under what conditions? And the EPR of goals remains outside the brackets.

But in any case, it all looks much more weighty than

"Radius of 100 km" and "observation with a resolution of 6 meters behind a strip 37 km wide and 20 to 110 km long"


for the Hawk radar.

In general, it should be assumed that the capabilities of the AN / APY-9 Hokai are significantly higher than those of the Hoka radar.

Hawkeye has a highly sophisticated AN / ALQ-217 signal intelligence station. The value of this device can hardly be overestimated.

The thing is that many readers of "VO" consider AWACS aircraft in general and "Hawkeye" in particular just as a flying radar, the capabilities of which are determined by the functionality of the radar installed on it. But it is not so. Or rather, not at all.

The Hawkeye has very powerful electronic intelligence equipment. We can even say that its radar is more likely a means of additional reconnaissance of targets and illumination of the situation in battle. That is, a Hawkeye with the radar off on patrol is a completely normal phenomenon. He will first identify targets by passive means and only then turn on the radar to clarify the situation. Unlike the Hawkeye, the Hawk does not have such a station on a regular basis. Although it is possible, of course, that some equipment can be installed on it as a payload.

What else? "Hawkeye" has equipment for identification "friend or foe". I am not aware of the installation of such equipment on the Hawk. Undoubtedly, the Hawk has an advantage in visual aids - an optoelectronic camera, infrared sensors ... And all this is necessary and important for conducting reconnaissance in certain conditions, but it is unlikely to be too useful for long-range sea reconnaissance purposes.

In general, the picture looks like this: "Hawk" carries a simplified and cheaper version of not the newest reconnaissance system, adapted primarily to search for ground targets. The newest Hawkeye probably has the world's best "air" complex of active and passive electronic reconnaissance. And, as far as one can understand, no upgrades of the Hoka ("dancing with a tambourine") can even remotely bring the capabilities of the Hoka closer to the Hokai.

Price issue


The cost of the latest versions of the Hawk was somewhat reduced - without R&D costs, this UAV costs the budget about $ 140 million. But in certain modifications it can cost more.

The cost of the Hawaiian is unknown to me.

But Japan, having ordered a large batch of these aircraft, purchased the first four for $ 633 million.

Thus, it can be stated that the prices of Hoka and Hokai are quite comparable.


US Marine Corps photo by Lance Cpl. Jacob A. Farbo

Some conclusions


Does all of the above mean that the Hawk is useless? And it would be better for the Americans to customize the same "Hokai" or specialized radio intelligence aircraft? Yes, it never happened.

The Hawk undoubtedly has its own tactical niche. Let its complex of equipment be inferior to that of the Hokai. But on the other hand, it is quite suitable for solving a number of important tasks of reconnaissance activities carried out over land.

Moreover, its flight range (or time spent in the air) is not just significant - it is many times greater than that of the Hawkeye. The latter has a practical range of just over 2 km, while the Hawk has as much as 500 km (the early and lighter modifications had as much as 22 km!).

Yes, of course, the Hawkeye can be refueled in flight, but that is completely different. And his crew needs rest and sleep. Unlike the Hawk, which can be operated by several replaceable "crews".

And at sea?


Let's imagine that we have an RQ-4 Global Hawk at our disposal and the task is to reveal the location of an enemy AUG, which has an E-2D Advanced Hawkeye at its disposal. What happens in this case?

Obviously, we'll send our Hawk on a search. Since he does not have an RTR station, he will have to turn on the radar in the search mode. So the Hawk will be very quickly detected by passive electronic reconnaissance means.

However, if it suddenly turns out that at the time of the arrival of the Hawk the radar of the Hawk will operate in an active mode, then the Hawk will detect the Hawk beforehand. Simply because its radar is more perfect and more powerful. Then the order will be transmitted from the Hokai to the fighters accompanying it. And the UAV will be destroyed before it can detect something other than the AUG - an enemy air patrol.

In total, $ 140 million will be lost for no reason at all. Well, at least the crew will survive.

And if an RTR station is installed on the UAV?


In this case, alas, events will develop exactly according to the scenario described above: they will be shot down without benefit for the cause. The bottom line is that a manned aircraft can maintain a radio silence mode, then it will not be so easy to detect it by means of RTR. But the UAV, alas, is a radiating object - in order to transmit the intelligence it received to the ground, it needs a very powerful transmitter capable of pumping at least 50 Mbps.

In theory, of course, it is possible to launch the UAV in a non-radiating mode, "ordering" it to start transmitting only in case of detection of enemy forces. But in practice, this will not work for one simple reason - even having an RTR station, a UAV in life will not figure out which of the objects it detected is an enemy combat aircraft, and which is a civilian liner flying away from the combat area. Or where is the enemy destroyer, and where is the neutral bulk carrier.

Because of this, the UAV initially loses in opposition to the passive means of RTR to a manned aircraft. To whom, in order to understand what he sees and hears, he does not need to transmit anything to anyone, violating the radio silence mode.

And if you put a radar from the "Hawkeye" on the UAV?


It's possible. And the RTR station can be “plugged in” without any problems. More precisely, there will be only one problem - the size of such a UAV will be comparable to a manned aircraft. This means that in terms of flight time / range, alas, too. But the cost, most likely, will go off scale - and is it necessary then to fence the garden with the UAV?

The main disadvantage of the idea of ​​using UAVs in long-range sea reconnaissance


It consists in the fact that not a single American military man, being in his right mind and sober memory, will never go to use either the Hawkai or the Hawk in the zone of enemy domination. aviation.

Both the Hawkeye and the Hawk must operate strictly under the protection of fighters. Exceptions are of course possible. For example, when there are hostilities against an enemy of the level of the Syrian barmaley. But in the event of a conflict with a more or less advanced power that has its own air force, both Hawkeye and Hawk will “work” exclusively under cover. And nothing else!

An attempt to send a single AWACS aircraft for reconnaissance unaccompanied into the zone of action of enemy aircraft will lead to an obvious and predictable result - it will be shot down there without any benefit to the sender. With UAVs of similar purpose, of course, the same will happen.

Send UAVs under cover of fighters? And where to get them somewhere in remote sea areas? It turns out that we need our own aircraft carriers.

But if this is so, then preference should be given not to UAV AWACS, but to conventional manned aircraft of a similar purpose. Indeed, in the event of an air battle, a manned AWACS aircraft will perfectly act as a "flying headquarters". But the UAV for this will have to "merge" gigabytes of information "on the ground." And so - to lead the battle from afar. And all this is much less reliable.

In addition, this approach loses the main advantage of the UAV - the long patrol time. What's the use of it if you still have to cover it with manned fighters with a very limited time in the air?

What if instead of one UAV we send a hundred?


Undoubtedly, the idea of ​​“bombarding the enemy with UAV carcasses” looks quite picturesque. People will not die in this case? And the ditched technology - why feel sorry for it? And what if the enemy will shoot down ninety-nine UAVs, if the hundredth still reaches and gives us the information we need!

All this talk is absolutely correct, if we forget about the economic aspect. And the numbers are relentless - a hundred Hawks cost $ 14 billion. In other words, more expensive than the newest aircraft carrier Gerald D. Ford.

That is, just in order to detect an enemy aircraft carrier, you need to spend more than it costs. But discovering is only half the battle. We must also destroy it. Why do you need a bunch of ships, planes, missiles ...

This, in fact, is the problem of palliatives in military affairs. When you calculate the costs of a seemingly very inexpensive and effective method of destroying enemy aircraft carriers, you realize that your own aircraft carrier fleet will cost much less.

Of course, someone will now say that due to lower wages and other things, we will be able to build a Hawk-type UAV at a lower cost than the Americans. It's right. But then, for the same reasons, can we build an aircraft carrier cheaper than they?

Do you need a UAV at sea?


Very much even needed. For example, since May 2018, the Americans have been using the MQ-4C Triton, created on the basis of the same Hawk.


This UAV received both an electronic reconnaissance station and an AFAR, but the latter had very moderate characteristics. The English-language wiki, for example, claims to be able to locate 360 ​​degrees on a course, scanning 5200 square kilometers in one cycle. It sounds, of course, weighty. But if we recall the formula for the area of ​​a circle, it turns out that the range of this "superradar" is about 40 km ... By the way, even though the "Triton" is cheaper than the "Hawk", the price tag still "bites" - 120 million dollars.

The question arises - why did the US Navy surrender such a UAV at all?

The answer is very simple - the Americans plan to use it to solve a number of tasks of patrol aircraft. That is, no one is going to send "Triton" in splendid isolation towards the enemy's naval strike group. But to check huge areas for the presence of submarines - why not?

The radar is needed for "non-traditional" search. Since in some cases a submarine, following under water, can still leave some wave trail on the surface. RTR station - will keep track of whether someone is entering a communication session. Of course, the Triton will not replace anti-submarine aircraft. But it will be able to perform a number of their functions. Also "Triton" will be useful in carrying out amphibious operations, performing reconnaissance for the marines. And he is quite capable of a number of other tasks.

In other words, UAV the fleet important and needed. But they are not a "magic wand" for all occasions. They certainly have their own niche. And we will definitely need to develop this direction. But you should not set them tasks that they cannot solve.

In the next article, we will talk about projects of specialized UAV carriers. That is to say - aircraft carriers equipped exclusively with unmanned aerial vehicles.

To be continued ...
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  1. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 16 December 2020 18: 36
    0
    If you really want the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, you can make it unmanned. Instead of equipment for the crew and the crew itself, place additional fuel tanks. Which will increase the flight duration. I think they will come to this soon. Another direction of development of the E-2 as a UAV command center.
    In any case, this aircraft will serve for several more decades.
    1. Machito
      Machito 16 December 2020 18: 46
      +4
      Andrey, thanks for the article.
      It is obvious that in the future, UAVs will simply need AI and horn antennas.
      1. Max Lebedev
        Max Lebedev 17 December 2020 13: 30
        +11
        Quote: Bearded
        in the future, AI is simply necessary for a UAV

        Everything is correct. Hockey is harder, not least because of the few "living intellects" who need a galley with a toilet, etc.
  2. Bradley
    Bradley 16 December 2020 18: 36
    0
    UAVs are also effective in a complex where all their goodies are revealed. However, this applies not only to UAVs.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 16 December 2020 18: 58
      -2
      Quote: Bradley
      UAVs are also effective in a complex where all their goodies are revealed.

      They will only take their rightful place in the armed forces when they become all-weather and high-speed. And this is a different layout and other engines, and a correspondingly high price, but this is necessary for combat operations with a serious enemy with modern air defense systems.
      I think many more will be broken by those who in the Ministry of Defense will discuss at military councils what to give preference to, or at least determine the percentage of reconnaissance aircraft and heavy UAVs. I think that this issue will not be solved overnight - here many specialists will have to break their heads in order to defend their point of view.
      1. Jacket in stock
        Jacket in stock 17 December 2020 08: 31
        -2
        Quote: ccsr
        when they become all-weather and fast. And this is a different layout and different engines,

        And there are already such ones - Onyxes and Zircons.
        A large, slow UAV is good precisely because it can patrol a given area for a long, long time.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 17 December 2020 10: 35
          +1
          Quote: Jacket in stock
          A large, slow UAV is good precisely because it can patrol a given area for a long, long time.

          In peacetime, yes, but in the conduct of hostilities, they will become easy prey for fighter aircraft and air defense systems of the opposing side, if only they come close to the line of contact. Of course, I'm talking about the conflicts of non-nuclear countries that have modern weapons and trained personnel. Regarding Onyxes and Zircons, in peacetime they are not used for reconnaissance - I do not understand why you mention them.
          1. Jacket in stock
            Jacket in stock 17 December 2020 14: 03
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            In peacetime, yes, but in the course of hostilities they will become easy prey for fighter aircraft and air defense systems

            But, as a bae, we proceed from the fact that we want peacetime not to end. Thus, it is precisely the slow, but capable of hanging for days, drones that turn out to be the best solution.
            Again, an attack on a patrol drone is a cutoff from the start of hostilities. Yes, and before "death" he will have time to transfer all the information received, which means he will fully fulfill his task.
            What kind of drone should be that fighters and air defense cannot shoot down, I can't even imagine, what speed should it have?
            And I mentioned Onyxes and Zircons, because they will be used in wartime.
            It is a pity that, unlike the "axes", they do not know how to conduct additional reconnaissance with the transfer of information to the opetator, but it is booming to hope that someday we will learn this way.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 17 December 2020 14: 14
              +1
              Quote: Jacket in stock
              Thus, it is precisely the slow, but capable of hanging for days, drones that turn out to be the best solution.

              Well, in peacetime, the operational situation does not change every half hour, so you need to hang around for days only when conducting hostilities.
              Quote: Jacket in stock
              Yes, and before "death" he will have time to transfer all the information received, which means he will fully fulfill his task.

              Information transmission channels will be suppressed in advance, and you will not know what is happening with the UAV.
              Quote: Jacket in stock
              It is a pity that, unlike the "axes", they do not know how to conduct additional reconnaissance with the transfer of information to the opetator, but it is booming to hope that someday we will learn this way.

              Or you can simply increase the power of the nuclear charge, and the problem will be solved, even if we miss the target a little. As far as I understand, the flight time will be so short that the target itself will not have time to move far, so perhaps the data that will be given to it at the start is quite enough. As the American military say, "Let the eggheads think about this, but we have no time to think."
  3. Thrifty
    Thrifty 16 December 2020 18: 55
    +2
    Andrew, hi as always, you know how to intrigue, thanks for the article! But now I am concerned about the question of when we will have our own analogue of the Hulk, and preferably, not only a long-range reconnaissance, but also capable, for example, of looking for enemy submarines, and directing anti-aircraft weapons at them! Or even attack them yourself!
    1. Bez 310
      Bez 310 16 December 2020 19: 08
      -2
      Quote: Thrifty
      when we have our own analogue of the Hulk, ... capable, for example, of looking for enemy submarines, and directing anti-aircraft weapons at them! Or even attack them yourself!

      Not in our life ...
      Perhaps in the distant, distant future, a UAV will appear
      helicopter type, based on a ship, and being
      the carrier of the mobile OGAS.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 17 December 2020 12: 44
      +1
      Quote: Thrifty
      Or even attack them yourself!

      Here's what we had forty years ago:
      Tu-300. Impact UAV of Russia, tested in practice
      Today it is hard to believe, but once the USSR was one of the world leaders in the production of UAVs.
      One of the most widespread drones of the early 80s was a series of Tupolev drones (Tu-123/143/243).
      These vehicles, equipped with photo and video reconnaissance means, were launched from a launcher on a wheeled chassis. and could fly at speeds up to 1000 km / h to a depth of several hundred kilometers and produced in circulation over a thousand cars.
      In the late 80s, Soviet developers came to the conclusion that unmanned reconnaissance aircraft can also be taught to strike at designated targets. this is how the first Soviet attack UAV Tu-300 appeared

      https://zen.yandex.ru/media/space_for_you/tu300-udarnyi-bpla-rossii-ispytannyi-na-dele-5fd316fbf72a8c3ef2af7b59
    3. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 17 December 2020 17: 05
      -1
      it will be too expensive a pleasure, it is easier to make different types of cars ... from the so far known concept of Helios with a radar lateral
  4. rocket757
    rocket757 16 December 2020 19: 33
    +3
    The Hawk undoubtedly has its own tactical niche. Let its complex of equipment be inferior to that of "Hokai"

    Any modern intelligence complex has a powerful computing / analytical system !!! Gone are the days when the operator could spy out on the monitor screen, somehow, and give objective data. Even now, this is a solid size and energy consumption ... there are also quite a few additional equipment.
    Moreover, the means of camouflage, electronic warfare, are also developing to neutralize their impact, various tricks are required that lead to "swelling" of reconnaissance equipment.
    Therefore, size, weight, matters ... at least for a while.
  5. Vadim Ananyin
    Vadim Ananyin 16 December 2020 20: 03
    +2
    Hawkeye had his own tasks, Hawkeye others. Hawkeye is a very good car. She has raids. Mom, don't worry. The hockey machine is tailored for the ocean-sea. She was very much used by the 6th fleet, which he himself observed from Moscow. Hawk-based on land apparently calculated-well, it seems to me.
  6. g1v2
    g1v2 16 December 2020 22: 16
    +2
    To be honest, I am more interested in our developed high-rise systems - the Obzor-1 project, which is conducted by the EMZ named after V. Myasishchev and the Owl project, which was developed by the Tiber company.
    Review-1 was seriously classified, but judging by the info, it was our analogue of the Global Hawk. And Owl belonged to pseudo-satellites - that is, an UAV loitering above the echelons used by civil aviation. In theory, the higher the flight altitude, the further the view should be. UAV drills should actually see such a target as aug much earlier than even a theoretical approach to the zone of its control. Moreover, it will be much more difficult to detect such an UAV than the massive a50 or a100 due to its size, low power consumption and shape.
    1. bayard
      bayard 17 December 2020 02: 59
      +2
      Low power consumption will allow predominantly only passive reconnaissance, and the enemy's AUG / KUG can also be in radio silence. The higher the UAV climbs (and it will still be not small in size), the greater the distance it will be able to detect the active and passive means of control AUG \ KUG and their air patrols with "Hokai". But working at a high-altitude echelon pushes the detection / contact distance beyond the airspace control zone by AUG aviation, which is an undoubted blessing.
      Talking about whether it is possible for us to have such means in the short / medium term ... is hardly serious, God forbid we acquire normal UAVs for which there are no engines to this day.
      We need normal reconnaissance and patrol aircraft based on the Tu-214 (since we now have the main base for special-purpose aircraft) for the far and middle zones, and heavy UAVs of the "Altius" type for working in the near and middle zones. And organize their combat / operational interaction.
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 17 December 2020 06: 23
        +3
        The work has been going on for a long time. The information on review 1 is practically classified, and it’s not clear at what stage, but in general the project is very interesting. Well, you can't hide such a goal as aug in the modern world. If it is possible from civil satellites, of which there are thousands, to view any point on the surface, then how much aug can be hidden? It will be detected every 15-20 minutes. The course is easy to calculate, the direction of movement is also. So you can send such UAVs to the interception course. You can do a lot of such pseudo-satellites like Owl. It is difficult to find them. The greater the distance, the more difficult. Organizing patrols by dividing the ocean zones of interest into squares does not look expensive. Again, the Aug does not go constantly in a state of full combat readiness, with planes prepared for launch and sending drlo planes in all directions and bristling with trunks. How many fighters do they usually have in the air? Link on duty? Each flight is expensive in terms of fuel and costs. Again, these are carrier-based aircraft. Their radius and loading are much smaller, which means there are and will be holes. Finding aug at the current stage of technology is not at all finding a strategist at depth. My IMHO, of course.
        I doubt that 214. Rather, in the coming years, patrol and anti-submarine aviation will be based on IL114. Well, drlo planes are based on IL76, as before.
        Well, altius is certainly needed. Who can argue, but it is much more important now to arrange mass deliveries of Orions. You need a lot of them.
        1. bayard
          bayard 17 December 2020 07: 43
          +2
          With an AWACS drone there will be problems with the communication channel - in a real combat situation they will be killed, and the device itself will be shot down - you cannot send that far. And for the near zone, maybe Altius in the AWACS version (double-sided canvas) will be enough.
          An AWACS aircraft with a crew on board looks much more preferable, and Andrey justified this well.
          Quote: g1v2
          If it is possible from civil satellites, of which there are thousands, to view any point on the surface, then how much aug can be hidden? It will be detected every 15-20 minutes.

          This is in cloudless weather and the satellites do not hang in place, knowing the schedule of their flights and in the radio silence mode, you can hide more than one AUG in the ocean. Even in the 80s, it worked well. So one cannot do without reconnaissance aircraft, and by combining its manned and unmanned components.
          Quote: g1v2
          I doubt that 214. Rather, in the coming years, patrol and anti-submarine aviation will be based on IL114.

          IL-114 only for the near zone - with the same radius and loitering time. Tu-214 was chosen as a base for special-purpose aircraft - they have a decent loitering time, internal volumes and habitability, they have already created / created a number of reconnaissance and electronic warfare aircraft, there will be repeaters, and possibly AWACS. In the AWACS version, the range and loitering time will be approximately 1,5 times longer than on the Il-76MD90A and with a fuel consumption 2 times less (2 engines instead of 4). There is enough room for equipment and operators, and habitability will be even better. Such aircraft are needed for the Aerospace Forces 50 , therefore, even purely economically and in terms of implementation time, it will be more convenient to do this on the Tu-214.
          And the problems with the production of the IL-76MD90A will not end soon. And it will be necessary to build at least 50 Il-78MD90A as fuel tankers - long-range (and tactical) aviation without them is just a pipe.
          So the idea of ​​AWACS on the Tu-214 is sensible, timely and expedient ... It's up to implementation ... and with that we always have ... as always.
          1. lucul
            lucul 17 December 2020 08: 14
            -1
            An AWACS aircraft with a crew on board looks much more preferable

            Whatever one may say, everything depends on the engines. They riveted tens of thousands of equipment, and R&D of motor engineering was not considered at all - money could be spent on any nonsense, in the form of $ billions of gratuitous aid to African countries. But to spend money on the development of new motors - no, no, taboo ...
            1. bayard
              bayard 17 December 2020 08: 52
              +1
              There was a focus on cooperation with Ukraine - Motor Sich, the most modern Soviet aircraft engine plant, its capacity was enough for the entire CIS ... And in 2014, instead of, at the request of the President of Ukraine, to return to itself - to reunite Malaya and Novaya Rus with Great ... Putin conspired with the enemy and recognized the legality of the coup ... albeit after the "elections."
              In the spring and summer of 2014, Russia could receive the Jackpot, and it is even impossible to imagine WHAT Russia would be today if Putin had not shown weakness and indecision then.
              All of today's problems in Russia stem from this - from the WEAKNESS shown then.
              1. Boris Chernikov
                Boris Chernikov 17 December 2020 17: 09
                -1
                spending a few years and getting a couple of new factories is easier than hanging a bankrupt country around your neck, which would curse and harm
                1. bayard
                  bayard 17 December 2020 23: 21
                  +1
                  At the time of 2014, Ukraine was not bankrupt at all. The external debt was not large, Russian enterprises were ready to place orders with Ukrainian enterprises for at least 50 billion dollars (shipbuilding, aircraft construction, rocketry, energy, etc.).
                  And, of course, it is possible to build factories ... organizing production with the release of products of the required quality, in the required quantity and on time is daunting. And this just doesn't work.
                  And it will not come out for a very long time, because we need a school and QUALITATIVE administration / management of starting production.
                  And such managers are on fire today - all managers are exceptionally "effective", with an economic or humanitarian education ... not engineers and not business people. The education system hardly gives birth to such people now.
                  But a ready-made, live production with an established technical process and trained personnel, with well-functioning logistics is worth its weight in gold.
                  This gold was missed in 2014.
                  And gold went to ... goldsmiths (servants of latrines).
                  Nikolaev "Zorya-Mashproekt", Zaporozhye "Moto-Sich", Dnipropetrovsk "Yuzhmash", Nikolaev shipyards, Odessa ports, enterprises of Kharkov and Donbass ... Without all this, all (almost all) of the rearmament programs of the Russian army fell into a deep depression. The aircraft industry remained without engines, the Aerospace Forces did not receive light and medium transport aircraft, the production of the An-124M was disrupted, the Be-200, Mi-26, etc. were left without aircraft engines, there were serious interruptions in the production and smuggling of helicopter engines (new production could not the required quantity, nor the required quality), the newest frigates turned out to be without engines - the 11356 series for the Black Sea Fleet was not completed, 22350 were left without a power plant ... and many, many, many more.
                  Losses are even scary to count.
                  And if Putin had made the right decision in 2014, we might have received sanctions, but we would not have suffered losses from breaking cooperation ties. And the resulting benefit would cover the losses from the sanctions many times over.
                  Plus, Russia would get / keep the huge Ukrainian market, in the grain and agricultural products market we would act as a single player with a greater benefit than now ...
                  Believe me, the alternative reality is much more positive than the incorrectly chosen reality in 2014.
                  And all the troublemakers and thugs in Ukraine were overfished in the spring and summer of 2014, the Ukrainian security forces themselves would have transplanted them, believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
                  And Russia today would not have crap at the borders, but the Eurasian Union with almost all the former republics of the USSR in its composition.
                  And many neighbors would ask for this Union.
                  But Putin and Russia then showed WEAKNESS.
                  A WEAK BEAT! (so said one current politician)
                  They don't follow the weak.
                  The weak are not trusted.
                  They are ignored.
                  They are used.
                  The weak loses subjectivity and becomes an object.

                  But everything could be completely different.
                  1. Boris Chernikov
                    Boris Chernikov 17 December 2020 23: 28
                    -2
                    but do not tell me how much would it cost Russia to maintain Ukraine under sanctions, when everything that Ukraine produces would be banned? and this is for the sake of 5 factories? what then, what now..Relatively- "ah Putin showed weakness" .. you know, it's very convenient to give advice to the authorities from the couch, when there is no information, you are not responsible for anything .. didn’t think that since Putin did this, then Were these very good reasons? You can imagine as much as you like in wet dreams "oh, you would take Ukraine for yourself" .. only you probably would have found 700-1 billion rubles a year to support the Ukrainian economy instead of developing Russia, so that later you would come to power would be another "square" who would like to go to Europe again .. no, thanks, let the Ukrainians deal with their goldsmiths themselves, you have to pay for everything
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 18 December 2020 01: 07
                      +2
                      Quote: Boris Chernikov
                      You know, it is very convenient to give advice to the authorities from the couch when there is no information, you are not responsible for anything.

                      My sofa is in Donetsk, and I have been here since 2014, so I know what I am writing about and I have more than enough information.
                      Quote: Boris Chernikov
                      .did not think that since Putin did this, there were very good reasons for this?

                      We thought, believed, and we know all the good reasons, as well as all the circumstances in which those decisions were made.
                      It was a mistake.
                      Moscow's mistake, Putin's mistake ... a fatal mistake for Russia.
                      ... He was "deceived again".
                      He just went to an agreement instead of decisive and correct actions. Making mistake after mistake and passing it off as a "cunning plan", the fiasco of which we are witnessing today.
                      He was unable to take advantage of the time he won (since he began to pull the cat for ...), nor re-equip the Army to the required condition (modern PR, this is largely just PR), nor find allies ... He lost all the potential that Russia had in 2014 and did not take a fantastic chance of success.
                      Quote: Boris Chernikov
                      but do not tell me how much it would cost Russia to maintain Ukraine under the sanctions, when everything that Ukraine produces would be banned?

                      What kind of sanctions?
                      For what ?
                      For the downed Malaysian Boeing?
                      So no one would have knocked him down.
                      And there would be no war in Ukraine.
                      We would just live now in one big, powerful state. The economy and industry of which would be largely self-sufficient.
                      And no one would have to support.
                      Ukraine was not bankrupt, its external debt was absolutely, very small, the standard of living was only slightly inferior to the Russian one (the average salary was 2 times inferior, but domestic prices were 1,5 or even 2 times lower than Russian ones. In Ukraine, it was very soft tax legislation and there were a lot (several million) self-employed and small entrepreneurs. smile
                      Yes, the state had some budget imbalance, but if the contracts announced at the end of 2013 with Russia were signed, there would be no trace of this deficit.
                      Quote: Boris Chernikov
                      when everything that Ukraine produces would be banned?

                      And what would be prohibited?
                      If half of Ukraine's foreign trade was with Russia?
                      And with Europe and America was not more than a quarter?
                      Moreover, exports to the United States and the EU from Ukraine were in a smaller share - metal, electricity, and so on in small details. In trade with Europe, imports prevailed.
                      And Ukraine exported to Asia (China, India, etc.), Africa, the CIS countries.
                      And what would Ukraine lose in trade?
                      Compared to what she really lost?
                      I repeat - Russia would not have to pay anything for Ukraine - it was a largely self-sufficient state (I mean the budget), and social issues were often solved there much better than in Russia (no matter how surprising it was to you now) - the same healthcare.
                      It was free and generally available, unlike Russia. yes
                      On the contrary, there would be synergy, unification and mutual growth of potentials, for our economies were created under the USSR as a single economic organism.
                      Russia would not have incurred losses of hundreds of billions of dollars, but on the contrary would have acquired and enriched itself from the working aviation industry and shipbuilding, Ukrainian turbines would have been installed on new nuclear icebreakers and their delivery time would not have been delayed for SO MANY years, all An-124s would have new engines and passed timely certification, the Navy would be replenished with modern ships without disruptions and delays and would represent a formidable force today. Russia would have an unshakable authority in the world, and the construction of the Eurasian Union would already come to an end.
                      In Central Asia, already 5 years ago, a united corps had been created to protect the Union State from the south (its creation had already been agreed, but the war in Donbass thwarted the plans).
                      The Union State of Eurasia would have a huge internal market, a stable union (!!!) currency pegged to gold, not the dollar ... and would spit on all the US sanctions from the high bell towers and minarets of their capitals.
                      Quote: Boris Chernikov
                      about "would have been transplanted with the help of the Ukrainian security forces" - all the more doubtful given the impotence of the Ukrainian police / police, what then, what now

                      This is all from your lack of knowledge into the processes.
                      Lists of all the organizers of the riots, activists and militants of the Maidan, the right sector and other nat. and sexual minorities of the paid booth, were in the hands of the special services and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ukrainian security forces were charged with restoring order, enraged by the Maidan lawlessness and, together with the Antimaydan forces and caring citizens, would have cleansed their cities in a matter of days.
                      They were simply not given such an order.
                      And the power changed overnight.
                      Yanukovych and his ministers fled.
                      They fled to Russia, by the way.
                      And Yanukovych asked for help in suppressing the fascist rebellion.
                      Well, the legitimate president and his ministers would return with reinforcements ... do you think the Ukrainian army, its Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Security Service of Ukraine would allow even the slightest opposition?
                      They were waiting for this.
                      And they were waiting not so much for the return of Yanukovych as ... for the return of Russia.
                      And the Army was waiting.
                      And the People.
                      And the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
                      And even the SBU, as it will not be surprising for you.
                      You just don't know HOW the putschists who seized power broke the Ukrainian security officials.
                      Yes, the putschists had foreign mercenaries - Polish PMCs and Black Water, Georgian snipers and other foreign mercenaries ... But this was also known, as most of their places of deployment were known.

                      It would be over very quickly.
                      And the joy of unification would be all over Ukraine, and not just in Crimea.

                      But Putin chose to negotiate.
                      He chose shame and did not escape the war.
                      He received sanctions and the ruin of the state, instead of the unification of historical Russia and common prosperity.
                      Instead of Glory, he chose Shame.
                      1. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter 18 December 2020 01: 17
                        +2
                        Quote: bayard
                        Instead of Glory, he chose Shame.

                        This is the comment of the day! furiously plus +10500. good good good
                      2. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 18 December 2020 11: 22
                        -3
                        as I understand you are writing this from the trenches near Donetsk?
                      3. bayard
                        bayard 18 December 2020 22: 46
                        +3
                        I am writing from the city of Donetsk. Yes, some of my comrades are now at war, it’s too late for me and my health will not allow me.
                      4. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 18 December 2020 22: 53
                        -4
                        so you needed in 2014 with the "siloviks, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the security service, the people" not to bring the Maidan people to power, And then you first brought them, you ruined your pants with waste products, and then began "Putin come! Putin save", in all the jambs Ukraine is the fault of the Ukrainians themselves and "Shame" is here only on you, on the citizens of Ukraine ... and not on Putin, who for some reason suddenly "had" to change all of you diapers ..
                      5. bayard
                        bayard 19 December 2020 00: 57
                        +2
                        Young man, I did my "duty", although I did not owe anyone, I did it in full and I have nothing to reproach myself with.
                        But have you fulfilled your duty to the state?
                        Have you served at least a year of military service?
                        Have you sacrificed anything for the sake of the state, society or your neighbor?
                        What did you, a young man, put on the altar of the Fatherland?
                        You probably don't even know such words.
                        You are scared to leave your "comfort zone", get off the cozy sofa, sacrifice your precious skin - delicate and silky.
                        If such a "smart guy" turns out to be in the trench, no diapers will save him - it will spoil the whole position. lol

                        And once again - I am a citizen of Russia.
                      6. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 19 December 2020 01: 09
                        -4
                        laughing oh how .. it turned out that as soon as it came to "what did they do", so the fairy tales about "I gave my debt" began. logically, all the actions of the "great patriots and leaders for unification" were reduced to sitting and waiting for an uncle to do everything for them .. well, but what, after all, it cannot be that out of tens of millions of "protectors" there was not a hundred thousand to disperse the Maidan ..because otherwise it turns out that the pompous speeches about "we waited" are idle chatter and just like the speeches about "Putin deserved only Shame." and about me .. I served my year of the term, and despite the fact that I had problems with my knee after two operations and could easily merge with this topic ... but now the "expert-savior of Russia-Soviet officer-member of society" will tell me that I'm like I'm lying, and he is handsome .. and "I am a citizen of Russia" .. well, now, probably, they ran out a passport and issued a passport .. and I suppose they hid the Ukrainian one quietly .. suddenly "the power will change" wink ... By the way .. it's interesting .. "tearing a vest on himself for Russia and screaming about we need to return Ukraine" turned on the back one and demands that others go and give "their skin" for his idea .. no, thanks, but give your life for the fact that 6 years ago the Ukrainians screwed up something I don’t want ... gulp the porridge that you made with a spoon, don’t slap
                      7. bayard
                        bayard 19 December 2020 01: 50
                        0
                        Borenka served? belay
                        With a sore knee? fellow
                        Oh, yes, darling, ah, yes, daring! lol
                        Is Borenka ready for Russia?
                        Well, "if tomorrow is a hardened enemy"?
                        Or is it more comfortable in the mink?
                        More comfortable. yes
                        Borenka is not some bast ...
                        Only it seems to me that Borenka's mink is cozy somewhere near Zhitomir ...
                        Not ?
                        Okay ...
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        .. well, now it’s probably, they ran out a passport and issued it .. and I suppose they hid the Ukrainian one quietly .. suddenly "the power will change"

                        No, Borenka, my passport, both Soviet and Ukrainian, was seized by the SBU during the arrest, but it never returned during the exchange. smile
                        But I am a native of the Chelyabinsk region, and my Russian passport is mine by right. I paid a great price for him, Borenka.
                        And it wasn't money.

                        And your life, Borenka, is unnecessary for us in Donbas, we have enough defenders.
                        And people like you, Borenka, we would have chased away with sticks.
                        In the best case for you.
                        Sleep well.
                      8. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 19 December 2020 09: 33
                        -2
                        laughing oh yes, when it turns out that someone has a different opinion on the issue, then you need to say "yes, you are writing from Ukraine" .. after all, turn on your head that someone may have a different opinion .. well, this is not for you ... by the way, "a citizen of Ukraine, a Soviet officer-citizen of Russia" .. but what about "the SBU, which was waiting" for you, arrested you? into the trenches to fight for your jamb, provided that out of "well, a little less than 40 million Ukrainians" there was not even a good hundred thousand to stop the Maidan? And yes, I am ready to fight for Russia, I swore an oath, but what does Ukraine have to do with it? Following this logic, I I must strive to fight in Karabakh, because there are Armenians who screwed up and now want the Russians to fight for them ... and oh yes, thank you, but I will repeat myself - the civil war in Donbass is the full merit of the Ukrainians and "citizens. Ukrainians come from near Chelyabinsk ".. You have been poking around in your nose for 25 years, but for some reason your jambs should have been sorted out Putin ... and you did everything right ... and "Putin is a shame" .. why are you a "citizen of Ukraine" remembered about Russia when they took you by the handles and only then ran to obtain citizenship ... or for 25 years from you didn't have time? Oh, yes, until the cock pecks in that very place, don't move ..
                      9. bayard
                        bayard 19 December 2020 23: 03
                        +1
                        Borenka then fluffed himself up - "warrior".
                        Almost a patriot. lol
                        I don't call you, sick one, to war, we are here on our own, we can cope without you. Sleep well, eat porridge, take care of yourself.
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        Of Ukraine, Soviet officer, citizen of Russia

                        Soviet, Borenka. Soviet officer. There was then neither Ukraine nor Russia, there were union republics of the RSFSR and the Ukrainian SSR. In our army, both the Turkmen served with the Uzbeks, and the Lithuanians with the Kazakhs, and the Armenians with the Azerbaijanis. This was my Motherland, and I did not renounce its citizenship.
                        And the fact that Borenka
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        ready to fight for Russia

                        , I doubt very much.
                        Coward Borenka.
                        Here's something nasty to mess, yes - "Always ready!".
                        So pick your nose further, listen to your mom and put on your hat in the cold.
                        Take care of yourself .
                        And wait for the rooster, which will surely bite.
                        And then - only herself.
                        And this will be your KARMA.
                      10. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 09: 59
                        -2
                        then it will be my karma, but for now, karma for you, it’s 25 years to ruin relations with Russia, and then squeal that “Putin, why didn’t you save me” .. although you haven’t even managed to get a Russian passport in 25 years .. and now yes, "I am a citizen of Russia", when the SBU didn’t pat the head .. So tell the tales to others, but while practice has shown that Putin did the right thing, since 40 million Ukrainians didn’t care, then why should Russia rake your shoals .. something 25 years before that you did not move .. so I repeat, eat, don’t crap .. this is your karma, although not, you wrote there as: "your KARMA"
                      11. bayard
                        bayard 20 December 2020 14: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        then it will be my karma

                        Take Boris, you deserve it.
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        , and then squeal that "Putin, why didn't you save me"

                        It’s you squealing, Boriska, with a small pig squeal. Itself is not disgusting?
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        in 25 years did not manage to get a Russian passport

                        Where does this awareness come from?
                        Or fantasy?
                        I, Borenka, had two passports before, and now two - a passport from the DPR and the Russian Federation.
                        So you waste bile in vain.
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        when the SBU didn't pat the head

                        This service consulted with me.
                        And the consultations went to work.
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        Putin did the right thing

                        No, he was wrong. And bent under the circumstances. And the environment.
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        why Russia should rake your shoals ..

                        Now they would have to clean up their own.
                        And the reasons for these blockages are spring-summer 2014.
                        But you, young man, do not understand this.
                        Genetics won't allow it.
                        And Karma - accept.
                        Deserved it.
                      12. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 14: 35
                        -2
                        oh yeah .. so they went for the good, that under the white ruchenki they took themselves .. and about "how do you know" so you yourself said about the passport) that he fussed when the Ukrainian was taken away. The shoals of Russia are the shoals of Russia .. and you already the third day you refuse to recognize, the jamb with the Maidan, this is your merit .. After all, it is difficult to recognize your jambs .. it is much more convenient, living in Ukraine, being close to the security forces to watch for 3 months how "friends and acquaintances are burned alive" ... accuse me of that I didn’t do anything .. what did you do? and you didn’t do anything .. and you wouldn’t have done if your colleagues from the SBU hadn’t come for you .. That’s the difference ... "I deserve karma." .well, ok, for my deeds I will get it, but for some reason you don’t want to admit your karma .. you have all bad things around you, except you ... Putin banally looking at the circus that you created on the Maidan, decided not to have a you business .. because it is very difficult to want to deal with the people of the country, who half burn the police to a standing ovation, and the other half of the country watch it from TV, and according to your own words "thisyour friends "... you, officer, watched for 3 months how your comrades in arms were burned alive .. but of course I'm to blame for this ... I need to be cursed .... no thanks, your jambs are your jambs, not mine
  7. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 18 December 2020 11: 21
    -3
    those. to summarize briefly, “oh, what a stupid Putin, he has been in politics for so many years, and has not done anything, did not understand anything, but I know better from the street.” 1) no one was expecting Putin, neither the army, nor the "people", nor all the more so "the Ministry of Internal Affairs with the SBU", sitting on the priest at home and shouting "right now, Putin will come and arrange an ogogo" - this is not waiting, this is waiting for a freebie, when you are at home and do nothing, but someone will come and do something ... and yes, about "Shame", a shame here only for the Ukrainians, who brought to themselves the power of the Maidan people, and Putin has one task - to take care of Russia, not of the Ukrainians. So no matter how much they write about "Glory" and about "Shame" .. you can even write SHAME no one will "save" Ukrainians from their stupidity - you have to pay for mistakes .. so let the Ukrainians pay off completely for their mistakes, otherwise instead of "thank you" they would listen to about "oh damn Putin and drunk Russians have deprived us of a wonderful life in the EU ".. no, thanks, Russia has already built these 3 factories, and there are more abandoned lands in Russia than in Ukraine, plowed up, so if you invest where, then in Russia
  8. bayard
    bayard 18 December 2020 23: 26
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    those. to summarize briefly, "oh, what a stupid Putin, he has been in politics for so many years, and has not done anything, did not understand anything, but I know better from the street."

    Boris, believe me, I have enough competence, and life experience, and education to speak as I say. I have neither unnecessary piety, nor false complexes in evaluating politicians and statesmen. Previous achievements do not excuse mistakes and crimes, they only emphasize them. Putin broke down on the "pension reform", and finally he was broken at the beginning of this year - an intelligent person sees this without prompting.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    no one waited for Putin, neither the army, nor the "people", much less "the Ministry of Internal Affairs with the SBU"

    They were waiting not for Putin, but for Russia and the reunification of the previously divided United Russian State. How do you know about this from your couch?
    Do you listen to Solovyov and others like him?
    Your right .
    Your choice .
    But I know everything from the inside - I was there, lived and participated. And it was a different city - not Donetsk. And I know the opinion of security officials and citizens not from TV and the Internet, but from personal communication and immersion in the process. And what arrests, captivity and exchange of prisoners are, I know from personal experience. I am a participant, not an observer of those events.
    And I have the right to say so and give assessments.
    Even in terms of competence.
    It was my program that saved the leading branch of the Russian economy in 1992 from collapse and a sell-off to foreign investors ... and now it is the basis and foundation of the Russian economy and one of the main donors of its budget.
    I took part in the first vote on the establishment of the All-Russian Economic Society. Sharapova.
    And I know how the hostilities were stopped and what made Poroshenko beg Lukashenko to organize a meeting with Putin (night call from September 2 to 3, 2014) - the first "Minsk".
    It is you, Boris, who are trying to judge from your couch what you have no idea about - this is the position of an ordinary man in the street. Such people do not win wars and are not glorified for great accomplishments ... but they have already knocked on you ... and your cozy little world swayed ... You still do not understand what is the matter and hope for "stability" ... but she has already left this imperfect world ... Shocks lie ahead.
    You cannot even imagine their scale.
    And Russia is facing these upheavals ... alone ...
    Because WEAKNESS was shown before.
    Because "the weak are beaten."
    And it is not a fact that your sofa in the outer hut will not be among the first to light up.
    But I wish you peace, health and prosperity.
    And purely for your reference, I am a Russian, from Russian parents, born in Russia, a Soviet officer. I now live in Donetsk.
  9. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 18 December 2020 23: 38
    -4
    how much pathos ... especially about "enough competence" .. why did you, with all your "competence", allow the Maidan? where was all the "Ukrainian people waiting for unification" there? oh yeah ... dreamed of panties ... it's always easier to say "Yes, it's Putin's fault" than to admit that you Ukrainians screwed up "a little bit" .. and to the heap "I am the savior of Russia" .. well, yes, the Internet will endure everything). and about "Russia alone" .. well looking at how the "people who were waiting for unification" behaved .. such "allies" are not needed for nothing .. and your mentions about "I voted for REO" ... thanks, laughed heartily .. and about "I am a Soviet officer" in general would be silent, otherwise it turns out that a military man who, with a blue eye, talks about how he is always for Russia with all his soul and how he despises Putin first allowed the collapse of the USSR, and then allowed the Maidan in Ukraine ... or was he busy with another vote in the REO? or "saved Russia" again?
  10. bayard
    bayard 19 December 2020 01: 08
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    how much pathos.

    Believe me, I have a right to it.
    But how much bile, stupidity and ... cowardice in response ...
    What you write is dictated precisely by cowardice and "khataskraism" ... so you are a Ukrainian, Boris. According to all the laws of the Russian language. Sitting on the sofa in the hut from the edge.
    But the last hut is on fire first ... watch out for fire safety, Boris.
  11. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 19 December 2020 01: 11
    -4
    um ... but why should I believe? and about "khatayskraystvo" .. 40 million Ukrainians, together with you, turned on the back 6 years ago and you sat with them and yelled that "Putin send troops! We want it so much" ... now you demand from others to solve your problems .. how nice .. no, thank you ... let’s do it yourself .. you raised Ukrainian nationalists yourself, fight them yourself
  12. bayard
    bayard 19 December 2020 01: 25
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    uh ... why should I believe?

    But do you believe in Putin, Borenka?
    And in Santa Claus. smile
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    40 million Ukrainians


    There were much fewer of them at that time, the statistics are overstated.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    together with you turned on the back 6 years ago

    belay What are they (your Ukrainians) doing there with the transmission?
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    and you sat with them and yelled

    Borenka, does your head hurt? Coronovirus not tortured? Maybe these are complications?
    To the brain?
    We, Borenka, did not sit.
    We, Borenka, fought.
    And they fought.
    While Borenka was sleeping soundly, he ate sweets and thought disgusting.
    And I listened to Solovyov that ... "we will never be brothers" ...
    Borenka grew mature with these verses.
    Has become imposing.
    He began to grunt.
    He began to tap the keys with his little hands.
    Yes, from the sofa svavo looked like an owl.
    For the sofa for your ... angry
    For Russia lol he .
  13. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 19 December 2020 09: 25
    -3
    laughing that's the joke that you tell me for the second day that "all Ukraine was waiting", And then it turned out that "there weren't enough of us, but we were in vests" .. you decide .. either everyone was waiting, but did nothing, then they "waiting" - nothing stood, or no one expected anything .. and yes ... "a great fighter for the unification of Russia", for the company "a Soviet officer who saved the economy of Russia" and a "member" of an incomprehensible society, about which only members have heard society ... thanks, I laughed ... you can continue to believe and write to everyone "I saved Russia", yeah ..
  14. bayard
    bayard 19 December 2020 18: 48
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    you say that "all Ukraine was waiting", And then it turned out that "there weren't enough of us, but we were in vests."

    And there were a lot, and they were in vests.
    Have you heard anything about "Russian Spring"?
    About Crimea?
    Where were you just going to start?
    About the entire South-East of Ukraine, which reared after the coup?
    About Kharkov?
    About Odessa?
    About Zaporozhye?
    No, Borenka did not hear lol , Borenka plays a silly one.
    Borenka's job is to quietly shit on Russian forums ... from near Zhitomir. lol
    Borenka's memory is like a fish lol .
    Struggle, war and the "voice of blood" are not familiar to a small child - his blood is different.
    And Boris will not take up the sword
    Under the roar and roar of mortars
    Another shows courage
    He is the first deserter in the country.
    bully
    Cowardice, laziness and quiet disgusting - that's Borenka's credo.
  15. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 09: 52
    -4
    those. a couple of hundred people for 40 million Ukraine is "all Ukraine was waiting"? Seriously? tell fairy tales to someone else .. you first watched the whole Ukraine 3 months as the Golden Eagle harness, And many happily clapped their hands .. So shame here only YOU, Citizens of Ukraine - burst, do not crap and do not try to outweigh your cant on others - you have been diligently breaking off relations with Russia for 25 years, organized rallies on May 9 nationalists, with each election brought more and more repulsed to power in Kiev ... and now you have Putin to blame ..haga.You screwed up - you and suffer.
  16. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 13: 23
    -1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    those. a couple of hundred people for 40 million

    We, Borenka, have two corps, and two more are in reserve.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    .you first watched the Berkut harness for 3 months all over Ukraine,

    There was not only "Berkut" there, the boys from the PPS and VVs bore the brunt. Well, "Berkut", of course, and the SBU special forces - the same "Alpha". And among them were many of my friends and acquaintances.
    And Borenka was dozing sweetly on the sofa and shitting quietly. yes
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    So the shame is only YOU

    No, Borya, now you cover yourself with shame ... and you click Karma. Hold her Borya - she is yours.
    May the law of the universe descend upon you, Boris, according to which "To each his own" and "According to merit".
  17. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 13: 47
    -2
    and not a weak part of these corps are volunteers from Russia, and during active hostilities there was a "north wind" ... and yes ... how many forces in the LPR? about 100? per 000 million population of the republics ... that is. the whole vast Ukraine had about 4 people who were ready to fight, some of them volunteers from Russia, and some of them who are fighting for their homes ... Well, where is “all Ukraine waiting” here? And yes. . "many were my friends." have you personally been? where were all the compassionate ones? and if I lived in another country, then it all concerned you directly ... but no ... you turned on the "hataskrai" mode, and then screwed up and now yell "shame on Putin .." . True, interesting logic .. you say that "Everyone was waiting", but no one did anything .. and now, when "the truth began to prick my eyes," the "savior of Russia" began to shout curses at me. After all, this just proves that I’m right .. You haven’t done anything for 100 years, but of course Putin and I are to blame) Aren't you tired of behaving like a child and switching arrows?
  18. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 14: 45
    +1
    No, Boriska, it was you who turned on the "hut on the edge" mode and you are actively pedaling this mode.
    You're just a coward.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    and not a weak part of these corps are volunteers from Russia,

    Yah ? belay
    Right?
    Now there are very few of those left - literally isolated cases. But in 2014 and 2015. - Yes, there were a lot of volunteers. But Borya, these were volunteers - our brothers. You then what side to them.
    We have enough volunteers from other countries. And these, by the way, do not leave, many got married - and from Italy, from Serbia, Germany and Spain, from the USA, Uganda, Belarus. We even have a novice of the Valaam Monastery in the special forces fought ... for two years. I have one friend - Benes Ayo, his dad is from Uganda, and his mother lives in Riga ... a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain (he studied in England and joined there).
    You see, Boriska, these people came to us to fight fascism.
    By conviction and call of the heart.
    And your rotten heart pours out only feces.
    Fu, what a disgusting thing.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    Where have you personally been? Where were all the compassionate ones?

    We are here, Borenka, in the Donbass.
    And they were by no means idle.
    Like Borenka.
    Because Borenka is a coward.
    And a very nasty troll.
    It is quite possible - from near Zhitomir.
    But it doesn't even matter where Borina's little house is on the edge.
    For Borenka is a coward and a pathological traitor.
    And it is very likely that he is now scribbling not at all for free.
  19. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 15: 10
    -4
    Why am I a coward? because when the Ukrainians started a civil war, to which they systematically went for 25 years, with your direct participation, did not go to fight for the Ukrainians? And you did not tell Benes that you personally took part in the revival of Nazism in Ukraine? when they ask uncomfortable questions? oooo, I was accused of "salary" ... so I guessed for sure .. And what do we have as a result? And we have a "Soviet officer" who, living in Ukraine and serving as a security officer in the same place like that in " 92 saved the Russian economy ", then for 25 years he watched and contributed to the revival of Nazism in Ukraine, then for 3 months he admired how his brothers-in-arms were burned and began to stir when his former colleagues came for him .. but of course I’m a coward on a salary, who asks uncomfortable questions and for these questions "KARMA" should comprehend me .... it's just enchanting
  20. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 15: 32
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    I'm a coward

    Yes .
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    because when the Ukrainians started a civil war,

    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    personally took part in the revival of Nazism in Ukraine

    belay come on ?
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    And we have a "Soviet officer" who lives in Ukraine and serves as a security officer

    No, I served as a security officer in the Great Soviet Union.
    In Ukraine, I sometimes just consulted.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    in the same place as in "92nd saved the Russian economy",

    Not in the same place, and not the entire economy, but only one of its leading industries - oil.
    Well, Gazprom copied my program a little later.
    But it was a long time ago .
    And I was familiar with Khodarkovsky.
    And with Mevzlin.
    And I talked to Abramovich.
    And it has been since 1991.
    And then I just helped the line ministry brainstorming group. It was headed by a good friend of mine.
    And I met Khodorkovsky back in 1991 at the NTTM Center at the Komsomol Central Committee, which he then headed.
    And then he still wore a mustache.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    then 3 months admired how his brothers in arms were burned

    It is you, Boriska, who have been admiring the rampant Nazism for seven years.
    And gloatingly rubbing your sweaty palms.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    I'm a coward on a paycheck

    Exactly . yes
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    I must comprehend "KARMA"

    Yes, Boris. yes
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    .this is just enchanting

    All the "best" is ahead. bully
    You'll like it .
  21. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 15: 38
    -4
    Well, yes ... that's how I imagined, 25 years since the collapse of the Union ... and young SBU officers are running around for consultations with an officer of the USSR .. aha, thank you, funny joke) yes yes yes .. you know everyone, you can do everything, thanks, you tell me that Putin personally wore coffee to you, but you saw his "rotten essence" .. yeah .. I don't rub my hands .. I just don’t care ... the Ukrainians made their choice, let them pay you for it .. So it turns out that I’m absolutely right ... because with what zeal you avoid unpleasant questions, I’m absolutely right .. by the way .. following your faith in "karma" .. everything that happens in Ukraine is the merit of the Ukrainians, not Putin .. because this is karma ..
  22. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 16: 35
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    tell you that Putin personally wore coffee to you

    No, but I knew his comrade former chief (from the KGB) quite well.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    , but you saw his "rotten essence"

    No, it was just broken.
    But this is now his problem.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    By the way .. following your belief in "karma" .. everything that happens in Ukraine is the merit of the Ukrainians, not Putin .. because it's karma ..

    yes
    And what is happening now with Russia is karma for Putin's mistakes.
    But Russia was before and will be in the future.
    And your karma, you will not be blown, petty troll.
    Moreover, you have already accepted it.
    Enjoy.
  23. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 15: 39
    -4
    by the way .. "you're a coward" .. that's understandable ... but why when Russia fought in the Caucasus with militants and then Georgians .. you weren't there?
  24. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 16: 38
    0
    My friends and colleagues were there.
    Everyone has their own job.
    War is also a job.
  25. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 16: 46
    -4
    YOU were not there. no need to hang on to other people's merits ..
  26. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 17: 33
    0
    And you weren't there.
    And?
    You weren't there ...
    Not in Tskhinval.
    Not in Donbass.
    Not in Ukraine.
    Not in Syria.
    Not in Libya.
    Not in Venezuela ...
    Borya, you were NOT ANYWHERE at all!
    And it won't.
    You will not be where it is scary and dangerous.
    You will throw your poop on the forums and rub your palms quietly.
    And take offense: "What is Karma for me?"
    For the poop.
    Like a cat that shits in slippers.
    Besides, you have accepted your Karma, and now you have to bear it.
    This is true .

    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    YOU weren't there

    You can’t be the ubiquitous Figaro, but I’ve been somewhere at least, and I’m where you cannot be bulldozed.
    And I did something for my homeland, and for Russia.
    And this is something that a division of such Borisok cannot pull.
  27. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 17: 46
    -3
    laughing the only difference is that I am not yelling "come Ukrainians and save me!" - I try to solve my problems myself, and not how you - at first, for 25 years the whole country carried the Nazis in the arms, erected monuments to them, abandoned the Russian language when in Russia there was a war in the Caucasus, they shouted "this is not our war", but at the same time they sent the same Nazis to fight on the side of the militants, then they shouted "this is not our war", but sent the air defense and power guards to fight on the side of the Georgians, then they burned a golden eagle under the hooting ... and then they started shouting "Putin, this is your war! The Nazis are offending us here" .. And the most interesting thing is that you have been leaving for the third day to admit it, you immediately turn the arrows to Putin, to me, to karma ... just-you sowed it yourself, now and reap it
  28. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 19: 07
    -1
    Not to appease the fountain of Boris
    Rampant Troll Restless
    Spews feces
    Pathetic, bitter and fetid.
  29. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 19: 09
    -3
    well, as I thought .. the hysteria continues .. which was to be expected when you get "not in the eyebrow, but in the eye" ... ", hi
  30. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 19: 48
    0
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    .yazh "Ukrainian on the salary",

    yes
    You are a spiritual Ukrainian - a khataskraynik.
    And no matter where your "Zhitomer" is - in Kiev, Dnepropetrovsk, Moscow, Odessa or Tel Aviv, you will everywhere be a nasty, bilious khataskraynik and an ethnic chutzpah bearer.
    Don't forget your hat. lol
    bully
  31. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 13: 49
    -3
    and in pursuit ... as I understand it, watching how "my friends and acquaintances" are burned alive by the Maidan people is the very thing for you .. I admired it for 3 months ... but no .. "vsezhny" did not even move to resolve the issue of the Maidan ... everyone was waiting for something ..
  32. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 14: 53
    0
    It was you, Boriska, who admired.
    And we fought.
    In your opinion, the defenders of the Brest Fortress were probably "scoundrels", because the Germans were not held back.
    We don't wait, we act.
  33. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 15: 12
    -4
    Even in your fight later, the ignition worked ... for 3 months people were burned, then they came for you and only then the fighter's mode turned on, I remembered that you were Russian and rushed to get a Russian passport ... but where were you when the war in the Caucasus was in Russia? were you when the Ukrainian military helped the Georgians in 2008? apparently then there was no need to fight ... so I sat waiting for something
  34. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 16: 11
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    even in your fight late ignition worked ... 3 months they burned people, then they came for you and only then

    No Borisk, they came for me a few months after everything was already on fire.
    And then I was not idle.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    rushed to get a Russian passport

    Just rebuilt. smile
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    .a where were you when the war in the Caucasus was in Russia?

    And you ?
    Where were you, Boriska?
    My wars in the Caucasus ended in 1991. request , because I served just in the Caucasus.
    Rather, in the Caucasus.
    And there with me there were THREE martial law regimes.
    And later, these were the wars between Yeltsin and Berezovsky.
    And this was the work of the young.
    How did you miss such a case, Borya?
    Was it small?
    It doesn't matter - I would tie myself with grenades and become a young martyr for Russia - like pioneer heroes in the Great Patriotic War ...
    Not ?
    And why ?
    After all, you have enough conscience to ask such questions to a stranger.
    And "courage". lol
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    where were you when the Ukrainian military helped the Georgians in 2008?

    And you ?
    Why didn't he die under the Rogsky tunnel?
    After all, you already grew up then?
    Did you "admire how the Georgian criminals bomb peaceful Tskhinvali"?
    And didn't volunteer?
    And for some reason you didn't rush to Syria as a volunteer ...
    Why
    Because a coward?
    Of course. yes
    But also because you are on a big Turkish drum.
    It's just that Borenka is practicing chutzpah.
    Shits under someone else's door, calls and goes into a heart-rending cry "What do you allow yourself ?!" ... No.
  35. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 16: 44
    -4
    Well, the current war is a war between Ukrainians and Poroshenko, not mine ... but it’s funny, you’re so worried about Russia that when she needed your help, you were in no hurry, but when you yourself raised the Nazis for 25 and then we got the problems "aaaa.Putin save us! aaa,!" ! ". But for you all this is violet .. for 25 years you closed your eyes to problems in Russia, keeping silent according to the principle of" hataskrai ".. and now you accuse others of the same ... solve your problems yourself, do not turn the arrows blaming others for cowardice for your sins ... and you wrote about karma here ... cursed me and that she would punish me ... so I'll ask again ... for what? for the fact that I just voiced a specific situation, but you didn't like it ... well so .. it really hurts ... So giggle further, your rotten essence, you have already shown me by trying to move the arrows to me.
  36. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 17: 20
    -1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    you are so worried about Russia that when she needed your help, you were in no hurry

    When Russia needed my help, I provided it.
    And more than once.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    I gave my debt to the Motherland

    belay WHAT ?!
    How have you given your debt?
    A year of military service?
    You value "your" Motherland cheaply.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    there will be mobilization, I will carry it out

    Borenka, we didn't have mobilization. smile We are all volunteers.
    Do you need a stick for your duty to the Motherland?
    So that a military commissar with a district police officer and handcuffs?
    Good "patriot" ...
    So after all, during the Chechen wars, the Georgian five-day, the Transnistrian conflict ... no one brought me a summons either ...
    How so ?
    And in the spring of 2014, no one sent us summons either - they somehow figured it out, got together, organized, armed ... and stopped the enemy on the outskirts of Donetsk and Lugansk.
    And the North Wind was.
    And volunteers from Russia.
    And from other countries.
    Boriska was not among them. No.
    And so everyone to whom the heart has commanded - all have arrived.
    How so ?
    Boris?
    Did you miss this war for Russia?
    ... And you weren't in Crimea ...
    Why
    When did the thousands-strong rallies in the cities of Ukraine for unity with Russia take place?
    When Crimea was taken - according to an accelerated procedure, and there are no other Russian lands?
    How to distinguish Crimea from Donbass?
    Crimea just wanted, and Donbass has been fighting for the seventh year.
    And in other cities, we banned uprisings - so that people would not be ruined in vain.
    When it became clear that Putin was broken for the first time.

    The damask blade, even if bent to the handle, always straightens to its original position.
    Then - in 2014, 2015. we thought that damask steel was bent ...
  37. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 17: 42
    -3
    laughing yeah .. "when I was needed, I helped" .. really there was no help, But you helped, in your fantasies .. how did you write there "but my friends were there" .. cool excuse .. you were not there, but there were those you know .. But at the same time you demand that Putin do something to you .. And you didn’t answer, where were all your millions of Ukrainians, then, since there were less than 100 in the whole of Ukraine, and then many volunteers + the north wind .. and a million ukrantsev was not found ... So everything simply, there is no "most waited" .. all of your majority under Olivieshka and bacon watched as the Berkut was burned .. yes you sat and watched .. But for some reason Putin suddenly became must-Putin owes you nothing ... just like me. Because Ukrainians have done EVERYTHING in 000 years so that they don't come to their aid. And these stories "they sat and waited" .. that's the point .. you are all sat and waited for Uncle Putin to come, solve the problem of the Nazis that you raised for 25 years, and then give you a medal ... but why Russian soldiers should die for your shoals you are not interested ... let them die, the main thing is that eaten your work. Just like you didn’t care about the soldiers in Chechnya and Georgia. and now you chew snot and blame Putin for all your sins .. oh yes, also me) .. Get used to solving your problems yourself, and not at the expense of lives Russian soldiers ..
  38. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 18: 32
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    Get used to solving your problems yourself, and not at the expense of the lives of Russian soldiers ..

    Borya, but you're not Russian. lol
    Why so much diarrhea, incontinence?
    We have Russians here and fighting.
    And also Greeks, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Dagestanis, Koreans (!) ...
    And everyone is local.
    But the overwhelming majority are Russians.
    You, poor man, do not know that Russians live in Donbass?
    Huh?
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    Just like you didn’t care about the soldiers in Chechnya and Georgia.

    For such a board, Boris, you have already said too much, but you are supposed to be responsible for the words.
    In Chechnya and Georgia, the Russian army fought - a regular regular army.
    We now have our own army - two corps.
    And I was talking about the fact that Russia has problems, not ours.
    With aircraft engines and naval power plants, with the Sarmat program and drones. And with many, many others.
    They would not have existed if the right decision had been made in 2014.
    And there would be no war.
    And sanctions.
    For there would be no reason.

    But you, Boris, you are not Russian.
    And even about your citizenship there is a question ... however, it is not difficult to clarify.
    And Putin ... is just the president. The same as Gorbachev ... like Nicholas II ... And this is not my problem.
  39. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 17: 59
    -3
    in general, I said everything .. can you continue to write about "where have you been?" accusations of cowardice, etc., etc. because admitting the truth is not for you .. for you it is more convenient to write off all the shoals on others, and to expose yourself as a knight in shining armor .. let it be only in your fantasies hi
  40. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 18: 38
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    .can continue to write about "where have you been?"

    So it was you, Boryusik, who presented it to me. fool
    Is the counterclaim surprising?
    Like is verified by like - he managed to accuse, and he was able to answer.
    But you don't know how to be a man. lol
    Therefore, I do not need to answer, I am already amused enough.
    bully
  41. bayard
    bayard 20 December 2020 16: 39
    0
    What makes you think that I was waiting for someone?
    People were waiting.
    And I worked.
  42. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 23: 30
    +6
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    those. to summarize briefly, "oh, what a stupid Putin, he has been in politics for so many years, and did nothing, did not understand anything

    You are here, straight to the point.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    and Putin has one task - to take care of Russia

    And again, I absolutely agree with you. And tell me honestly, do you like such care?
  43. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 18 December 2020 23: 44
    -5
    you know, when in the 90s I received bread “on record”, because my parents didn’t pay money for half a year, I didn’t even notice the “care” of all the “protectors about Russia”, but for some reason, as soon as everything was working out in the country, a whole bunch of “experts” came out who began to tell how bad Putin is, what he did this is not so and this is not what they are, but they would have done otherwise .. Moreover, every second declares that he personally saved Russia .. and I have a simple question .. where are they all these "saviors" were there before, when the country REALLY needed help? Oh, yes, then there was no Internet ... it was impossible to write how they "saved the country" ...
  44. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 23: 54
    +4
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    you know, when in the 90s I received bread "on record" ...

    I’ll tell you a secret, in my village and until now under the record, until retirement, in the store they shop.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    but for some reason, as soon as everything is working out in the country

    In which country did it work out? Or rather, for whom did it work?
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    how bad Putin is, that he did it wrong ...

    How is he different from Yeltsin? Drinking less? Or something else? That one country was selling to foreign corporations, that another. What's the difference between them? In one case, the salary was not paid, in the second, there was no work. For me, what is the difference between them? Only that during the first social program was not completely killed, and the second finished off.
  45. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 19 December 2020 00: 01
    -5
    only there is a difference "on record until retirement" and "on record until winter, and then the grain will be sold, the salary will be charged and the bread will be deducted" .. these are "slightly" different things. about "there is no work for the second time" .. how nice .. those. I understand correctly that such a healthy man Aleksey cannot find a job for himself? Oh yes .. "social sphere" .. well, yes .. after all, shooting for beer at pensioners, Then at night to write in the topvar "what kind of power is bad" is much more convenient than work search..
  46. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 19 December 2020 08: 02
    0
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    in the second case there is no work ".. how nice ... that is, I understand correctly that such a healthy man Alexei cannot find a job for himself?

    I closed the individual entrepreneur and registered at the employment center, for 5 (five) months I was provided with 2 (two) jobs, both did not suit me. Do you think this is the normal state of affairs? Do you think that the state develops industry and creates jobs?
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    oh yes .. "social sphere" .. well, yes .. after all, to shoot for a beer at pensioners, Then at night to write in the topvar "what kind of power is bad" is much more convenient than looking for a job.

    Without transitions to personalities in any way? Are the arguments over? As a young man, I am already used to creating jobs for myself. And I work at the computer, once again I create a workplace for myself. Answer me better, if I create a workplace for myself, teach my children myself, now I treat them myself, or for my own money, then what does the state do for me? And why do I need such a state? I lost my job, at 50 (burned out in a fire) I went to restore, through the MFC, in the pension the latest data for 2002, (service in the authorities), and everything else is missing. That is, the last employers, using the laws of the "great and wise", changed the form of ownership and did not list the data in the PF. The bottom line for me is that my pension will be in 70 years, probably the minimum wage. So why do I need such a state?
  47. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 19 December 2020 09: 39
    -1
    those. even the employment center offered you TWO options, but they didn’t suit you, you’re a former individual entrepreneur and you should have been offered the BEST conditions .. And the normal state of affairs is when "Putin didn’t give me a job" and therefore you hang out on Topvar all day and tell about "Putin is bad, he didn't give me a job." about "I went to restore labor, but there is no data" .. have you tried to pay taxes? or when an individual entrepreneur does not need to do this? Or salary in an envelope is normal, but taxes are not paid do you need?
  48. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 19 December 2020 21: 36
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    .e. even the employment center offered you TWO options, but they did not suit you, you are a former individual entrepreneur and you should have been offered the BEST conditions ..

    I do not know about the BEST conditions, but for 12 thousand I will not work for someone else.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    And the normal state of affairs is when "Putin did not give me a job" and therefore you hang out on Topvar all day and talk about "Putin is bad, he did not give me a job"

    "Chukchi is not a reader, Chukchi is a writer", remember this anecdote?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    And I work at the computer, once again I create a workplace for myself.

    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    about "I went to restore labor, but there is no data" .. have you tried to pay taxes? or when an individual entrepreneur does not need to do this? Or is the salary in an envelope the norm, but you don’t have to pay taxes?

    Have you heard about indirect taxes? This is, firstly, secondly, who told you that when I was an individual entrepreneur, I did not pay taxes? Thirdly, now when the project is finished, I will not pay taxes. I don’t want to, I don’t owe this state anything. And yes, I didn't hire anyone to work, and, accordingly, I didn't pay anyone in an envelope. Will you answer the question? Or is there nothing to answer?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Answer me better, if I create a workplace for myself, teach my children myself, now I treat them myself, or for my own money, what does the state do for me? And why do I need such a state?
  49. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 09: 55
    -2
    those. I’m right, and at first you happily received envelopes, and then “ah, I threw the tax office with the authorities, and then the boss threw me, how could it be!” .. so go for a walk .. “otherwise the government is bad, but I didn't pay taxes , but still the power is bad ".. laughing
  50. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 10: 34
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    those. I'm right, and at first you happily received the envelopes, and then "oh, I threw the tax office with the authorities,

    Where does it say that I had some kind of bosses? Remind the anecdote again?
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    otherwise the government is bad, but I did not pay taxes, but the government is still bad "..

    Where did I write that I did not pay taxes? I just said that I am not going to do it next time.
    And there is nothing to answer?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Answer me better, if I create a workplace for myself, teach my children myself, now I treat them myself, or for my own money, what does the state do for me? And why do I need such a state?
  51. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 11: 22
    -3
    you directly wrote "and indirect taxes" .. citizens start to write such things when they do not pay direct taxes, and everything else is an attempt to sell donkey ears .. So at first do not pay taxes, and then cry that "the government is bad and the pension is not soon I will get ".. and the reason is simple, you tried to throw the state ... but in vain
  52. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 12: 16
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    you directly wrote "and indirect taxes" .. citizens begin to write such things when they do not pay direct taxes,

    Your guesses interest me least of all. I want to remind you that grown-up educated people turn to each other on "you".
    I can't wait for an answer to my question?
  53. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 12: 45
    -2
    lol Well, given the fact that YOU don't answer questions, dodging to "I'm not interested" .. what should I answer? about strange questions about "indirect taxes"? or that "I won't pay taxes again"?
  54. ccsr
    ccsr 20 December 2020 11: 08
    +1
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    but for 12 thousand I won't work for someone.

    At my entrance there was an advertisement in three languages ​​- we need cleaners, 37 thousand clean a month. Come to Moscow, they are waiting for you here and you will receive three times more than the amount you specified. And if you learn to be an assistant driver, then at least 65 thousand you are guaranteed. Is this not enough to feed yourself and your family? Well, if you don't know how to do anything but drive, then come anyway - there are a huge number of proposals for drivers, including public transport.
  55. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 11: 23
    -2
    wink here crane operators are needed for the objects of the Ministry of Defense ... 100 pieces per month with payment of accommodation and travel with food 60/30 work ... and that is difficult to find ... and here is a whole former individual entrepreneur ..
  56. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 12: 24
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    wink here crane operators are needed for the objects of the Ministry of Defense ... 100 pieces per month with payment of accommodation and travel with food 60/30 work ... and that is difficult to find ... and here is a whole former individual entrepreneur ..

    Did I ask you to help me find a job? I make good money at home, this hour I will finish my project and it will be even better. Only I myself do it without the participation of the state. To your question
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Answer me better, if I create a workplace for myself, teach my children myself, now I treat them myself, or for my own money, what does the state do for me? And why do I need such a state?

    I will never hear an answer from you? You will continue to "excuse yourself"? I'm getting tired of wasting time on you.
  57. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 12: 47
    -2
    those. in the country everything is so bad that you sitting at home in a chair know how to earn enough for life .. but "Putin is to blame because I can not earn" .. how strange it sounds, don’t you think? About "I teach myself and fly myself." . well, yes ... that is. Do I understand correctly that your children have always studied in private schools and were treated in private hospitals, and your apartment is guarded by a private security company and a PMC?
  58. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 12: 52
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    those. everything is so bad in the country that you can earn enough to live in a chair sitting at home ..

    Do you know what freelance is? And what does the state of Russia have to do with it?
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    About "I teach myself and fly myself" .. well, yes .. that is. Do I understand correctly that your children have always studied in private schools and were treated in private hospitals, and your apartment is guarded by a private security company and PMC?

    My children are family-taught, we teach them ourselves, for a number of reasons. Where do you get such wild guesses?
  59. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 13: 36
    -1
    those. the state is so bad that it has somehow created an environment that you can work at home and earn enough. about "family education" is your decision, as I understand you do not live in a distant farm and there is access to schools, the current situation in education associated with the crown. About "wild guesses" .. that is. it turns out that in addition to buying drugs, you treat children in public hospitals, where there is a state. employees a-ka doctors on a salary treat your children on equipment purchased by the state? Like the police, the FSB and the army ensure your safety not from the kindness of your soul, but from the fact that it is their duty and for this they receive satisfaction ... it turns out that you even say "why do I need this state" but this state is very much even helping you in your life. The only difference is that you do not notice many sides, and where the inconvenience appeared, moaning about the "bad state" immediately began hi
  60. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 13: 15
    +1
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Did I ask you to help me find a job?

    Both citizens are non-rubber. Thanks to them, I already worked there in the XNUMXs ... Let them themselves live in a trailer for four, Uncle Tom's hut is even better.
  61. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 13: 01
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    and it's hard to find

    You better search. We have a vocational school, where they taught crane operators, plasterers, masons, carpenters, they gave them to priests 20 years ago, go there.
  62. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 12: 19
    +2
    Quote: ccsr
    At my entrance there was an advertisement in three languages ​​- we need cleaners, 37 thousand clean a month. Come to Moscow, they are waiting for you here and you will receive three times more than the amount you specified.

    Did I ask you to help me find a job? Forty I earn on freelancing from a chair without getting up. I just wanted to hear the answer to the question
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Answer me better, if I create a workplace for myself, teach my children myself, now I treat them myself, or for my own money, what does the state do for me? And why do I need such a state?
  63. ccsr
    ccsr 20 December 2020 14: 22
    +1
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    And why do I need such a state?

    Well, at least in order to raise money to help those who cannot work like you and need state subsidies - for example, people with disabilities, large families or old people. I am not even talking about such banal things as the defense of the state and the maintenance of internal order - this is obvious, because you do not want some black man from Africa to come and demand you vacate your home, because his ancestors were destroyed by whites. But you want, as I understand it, to have everything from the state, and at the same time not to give anything to it. But this is not the case in any country in the world, unless you live as a hermit. By the way, what kind of society you live in - maybe you are one of those who rallied around the next "saint" and live there in your own world? Then the state is really dangerous for you - after all, it may be interested in the structure of your life. The essence of your claims against the state is incomprehensible to me - you are not calling to live in a primitive society, or do you still want to live like that?
  64. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 14: 56
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    But you want, as I understand it, to have everything from the state,

    I want to give as under the USSR and take as under the USSR. Is the current "government" doing something in this direction? Is it building a welfare state for the majority of the country's citizens?
  65. ccsr
    ccsr 20 December 2020 15: 53
    +1
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    I want to give as in the USSR and take as in the USSR.

    I would also like the USSR to exist, but our God-bearing people said in 1991 "Down with the CPSU" and now you personally, like me, are reaping the fruits of choosing the capitalist path of the country's development.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Is the current "government" doing something in this direction?

    It built the capitalism our people dreamed of in 1991.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Is it building a welfare state for the majority of the country's citizens?

    And capitalism cannot be socially oriented towards the working masses - this was proved by Marx in the 19th century. With what joy should the current capitalist class take care of you or me? This is contrary to the nature of capitalism, and the majority will not vote for Zyuganov. So everyone in Russia, with their own interests, are capitalists with their own, and those who work for them deserve to be treated like that.
  66. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 16: 11
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    I would also like the USSR to exist, but our God-bearing people said in 1991 "Down with the CPSU" and now you personally, like me, are reaping the fruits of choosing the capitalist path of the country's development.

    Maybe it's enough to tell tales about "the God-bearing people who chose the capitalist path of development"? Maybe you and your ilk will have the courage to say that those who are now in power just wanted to put public property in their pockets? And the people were just once again "divorced" under the pretext of "fighting with party privileges." May I remind you with what slogans Yeltsin came to power? Where in his slogans was it about the collapse of the USSR, the construction of capitalism and thieves' privatization? Maybe he said something about the closure of schools and hospitals?
    Quote: ccsr
    It built the capitalism our people dreamed of in 1991.

    Stop lying.
  67. ccsr
    ccsr 20 December 2020 16: 30
    +1
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Maybe it's enough to tell tales about "the God-bearing people who chose the capitalist path of development"?

    And who chose him for us - the Martians or what?
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Maybe you and others like you will have enough courage to say that those who are now in power just wanted to put public property in their pockets?

    Those who are now in power took advantage of the folly of our people, who believed the drunkard Yeltsin. That is why they have appropriated the national wealth of almost the entire country, and are not going to give them to the people - they have not even been able to introduce natural rent for a quarter of a century, despite the fact that Zyuganov has raised this issue more than once.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    May I remind you with what slogans Yeltsin came to power?

    I wanted to spit on his slogans - smart people immediately realized that he was a rogue, and even suffering from alcohol addiction, which is generally unacceptable for a nuclear power. But the rest of our citizens prayed for him - I saw it myself at that time. Well, let them now reap the fruits of their stupidity - I can only sympathize with them, but not justify their foolishness.
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Stop lying.

    I'm not lying - everyone wanted dozens of varieties of sausages, trips abroad, foreign cars and other household appliances. Now you got all this - why then is the whining going on, and why am I lying that the demand of our people to build capitalism was not fulfilled?
  68. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 16: 36
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    And who chose it for us - the Martians or what? .....

    You apparently did not read carefully, I wrote everything. Watch this video, Yulin explains clearly
  69. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 12: 56
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    At my entrance there was an advertisement in three languages ​​- we need cleaners, 37 thousand clean a month. Come to Moscow, they are waiting for you here and you will receive three times more than the amount you specified.

    Accommodation provided, or what? Can the family be transported, or not?
  70. ccsr
    ccsr 20 December 2020 14: 24
    +1
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    Accommodation provided, or what? Can the family be transported, or not?

    I have known you for a long time from this forum - you will not go anywhere and will not tear your ass off, so you do not need to ask unnecessary questions. Who cares, they will not only find the necessary information, but will also call the employer during the afternoon and receive all the necessary information. But mansions will not be provided there - that's for sure ...
  71. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 14: 31
    +2
    Quote: ccsr
    I have known you for a long time from this forum - you will not go anywhere and will not tear your ass off, so no need to ask unnecessary questions.

    Of course, you know that I also take care of a disabled person. And as in the case of Alexei, for example, he has five children, as far as I remember? And eating a banal odnushka will eat up all this salary.
    Quote: ccsr
    you won't tear your ass

    You also know that I already worked in Moscow, and that was enough for me.
  72. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 20 December 2020 14: 51
    +2
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    You also know that I already worked in Moscow, and that was enough for me.

    I worked the same, sent "on a business trip" from our meat processing plant. They deducted for everything, even for the bus, which was taken to work from the hostel (I will not say anything about the conditions). As a result, he brought home less than he earned at home.
  73. ccsr
    ccsr 20 December 2020 15: 21
    0
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    And eating a banal odnushka will eat up all this salary.

    A banal odnushka can cost from 22 to 40 thousand rubles, depending on the area - of course, not apartments.
    But you can rent a room - it will come out cheaper, and this option is acceptable for those young people who come for the first time and for unskilled work. It is very naive to expect that in Moscow something will be presented to you on a silver platter - everyone knows who works here.
  74. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 15: 27
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    But you can rent a room - it will be cheaper

    I know how much and what it costs. We rent a room, pay for it, pay for our own house, deduct travel expenses, and in the end we get about the same 12 thousand far from our relatives. So save your advice for the young.
  75. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 19 December 2020 08: 16
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    you know, when in the 90s I received bread "on record", because my parents were not paid money for six months

    Why didn't they get paid?
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    a healthy guy like that can't find a job?

    They paid me. Probably I have grown old and become unhealthy, since now I find work with grief in half.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    as soon as everything is working out in the country

    Someone may have improved. Interestingly, what are you doing?
  76. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 12: 08
    -2
    "why weren't they paid" .. seriously? a more stupid question couldn’t come up with? hmm .. and these are "topvar's best experts"
  77. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 12: 43
    +3
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    .Seriously?

    Really. For all the 90s, the only salary delay I had was in the 97th, and was 10 days. Right before the New Year, they issued the 30th, instead of the 18-22nd. And I wrote this to your remark about a healthy man who cannot find a job. It would not hurt you to look around, ask around, with what "pleasure", for example, 60-year-olds are hired. And not only. Neither me nor my classmate with experience, age under 50, was taken to the new plant built by the Chinese.
  78. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 12: 49
    -3
    you're in luck, but many are not. Regarding "why don't they take it when I'm 60" .. well, turn to the inspection, if they don't take it in terms of parameters other than age, then they take it .. yes, and if the specialist is good, then they take it to the plant.
  79. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 13: 23
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    if in terms of parameters, except for age, they do not take

    After that, the employer will be imbued with such love that you will barely have time to turn your ass away. And you will not have time, because when someone needs to kick you in the ass, he will do it.
  80. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 13: 39
    -2
    and if it is for a violation, then they will find a reason, and if without something we turn to the inspectorate again, although after the first case, most employers do not want to contact without special jambs. And I repeat, especially good specialists for not being fired for 60, especially since it is better to hire a competent person for 5 years and then retire than to hire a young and inexperienced person who cannot do his job - in general, many parameters depend on the employer himself
  81. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 13: 51
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    and if it is for a violation, then they will find a reason,

    Yes, and without violations, such conditions will create that you will make your own legs.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    especially good specialists for not being fired from 60

    And not very good, but just average? And when is the enterprise closed? I worked for some time at an enterprise for disabled people, it was closed two years ago, so a couple of weeks ago one died, he was 40 years old. On the trash heaps of the store, it turns out to be rummaging, collecting delay, picked up some kind of infection. So I fully agree with Alexei.
  82. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 13: 57
    -1
    in what exactly? that "life has become worse"? so I have been hearing these speeches for 10 years now as I have been using the Internet. and everyone says that it only got worse ... and then you look how many foreign cars are in the yards, how many people go on vacation ... it's a pity for your deceased friend, but here the question is not only for the state, but also for its environment ... democracy and the market - why didn't they help a friend and a relative? and then the situation is strange looming .. after all our efforts, every year 3 trillion rubles are not paid in taxes .. everything is paid in envelopes and in gray money. pay taxes ".. and a little something right away, why the government is bad and did not help and did not protect .. adhering to the principle" throw the state where you can, you need to expect that the state will respond in the same way "
  83. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 14: 21
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    and then you look at how many foreign cars are in the yards

    Already hesitated with these foreign cars. Why are they not our Volga and Izhy? I worked at four enterprises, the farthest of which was 15 minutes' walk from home, I didn't need a car, they all (enterprises) were covered. Now you have to go to God knows where, here's one of the necessities to have a car. The second is the collapse of public transport. Personally, in our city after 21 - 00, you won't wait for a minibus, and buses have not been running on many routes for a long time. I don't see them.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    why didn't you help your friend and relative?

    Try it, get a lonely visually impaired person somewhere, or do you want to say that friends should feed him all his life? This is, as it were, the duty of the state, which Putin recently muttered on TV that they did not forget about them.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    all in envelopes and in gray pay.

    Received in an envelope and in a gray one only once. And not of their own free will. And help from the state ... In our employment office, such vacancies are offered that only spit hunting.
  84. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 14: 29
    -1
    market-s. destroyed the USSR for the sausage .. now what do you want? And if he is disabled, then he had a certain pension i.e. the state unexpectedly did not give up .. about the "employment office" .. and on other sites you can not watch? and about foreign cars ... a rather strange remark ... this is not to admit that people can afford to buy cars, so not everything is good with you? Well, the best-selling cars in Russia are from VAZ now, so it's also kind of past. ...
  85. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 14: 42
    +1
    Try it yourself at the minimum salary (12 thousand) and live by buying two pairs of socks a year. Or four, I have forgotten already, reluctance to look for this consumer basket.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    people can afford to buy cars

    They can, they can. The son-in-law paid off the loan for a whole year, working in a gas structure.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    not all is well specifically with you?

    And not only me, he said, stick your nose out of the MO.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    the best-selling cars in Russia from VAZ now

    As in the USSR, as it were.
  86. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 15: 05
    -2
    how cruel .. the person paid the loan for a year .. although the loan is designed for 5 years .. as I understand our country, "experts" will begin to consider it "normal" when it will be possible to buy a premium car on the fly with an allowance? although I think that you will unhappy .. because you need to somehow justify
  87. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 15: 14
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    how cruel .. the man paid the loan for a year.

    Maybe two, not interested.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    a premium car?

    Why would he buy a premium car? Premium cars at the management.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    although I think that later you will be unhappy.

    Personally, I will be happy when I stop constantly looking for work, which becomes more and more difficult with each passing year. And not for the mocking minimum wage, half of which goes to pay for communal services.
  88. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 15: 34
    -2
    on sites like hh.ru or superjob tried to search?
  89. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 15: 55
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    on sites like hh.ru or superjob tried to search?

    Listen, you go through the forest with your advice. I know local enterprises where, what and how, and even more so the differences between the real salary and the one that is written on the fences, incl. and platform. At the moment he is provided with work.
  90. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 16: 38
    -3
    those. you found a job ... and it is not necessary to be rude for good advice ... but then it turns out there is no work, and you did not look everywhere looking for closer to your next negative
  91. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 16: 45
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    it is not necessary to be rude for good advice

    Useful advice? laughing
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    differences between the real salary and the one that is written on the fences, incl. and platform.

    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    those. you found a job.

    Temporary.
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    you weren't looking everywhere you were looking closer to you

    How categorical! Imagine, even for 4 thousand rubles a month "found". 36 hour workweek.
  92. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 16: 47
    -3
    laughing just sensible. just need to carefully read and clarify the information .. and then in fact at a local plant can be bred for a sweet soul and an old friend
  93. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 16: 50
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    just sensible.

    Don't worry, I used your good advice for a long time.
  94. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 16: 57
    -3
    laughing well then it’s good that you used it .. I hope that in terms of work you will be fine
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 17 December 2020 08: 16
    +1
    Quote: bayard
    in a real combat situation they will be hammered, and the apparatus itself will be shot down - you can't send that far

    And the plane won't be shot down?
    Funny.
    1. bayard
      bayard 17 December 2020 08: 46
      +1
      The aircraft has a large set of reconnaissance equipment on board, including RTR, so in the passive mode it will hear / take the enemy at a greater distance than he will be able to see him. In addition, such aircraft are not sent on missions without fighter cover during the threatened period. Yes, and having detected movement in its direction, the reconnaissance aircraft will be able to put active interference and evade towards its combat formations - under the cover of fighters or naval air defense.
      But a reconnaissance aircraft is both a flying command post and a command relay, and it does not need to continuously broadcast the observed situation at the command post, it is capable of conducting reconnaissance in a passive mode in absolute radio silence mode and, having detected a target, give target designation to it already leaving the zone possible defeat of the enemy.
      1. Jacket in stock
        Jacket in stock 17 December 2020 09: 49
        0
        Quote: bayard
        planes without fighter cover during the threatened period are not sent on a mission

        Exactly, and this deliberately limits the range and duration of the flight.
        The drone can fly anywhere and for as long as you want., Although right along the coast of America.
        A small plastic drone is less visible in the air than a large aluminum aircraft, and nothing prevents the drone from collecting information in radio silence and transmitting it after leaving the affected area. And the destruction of the drone after it has transmitted the information will not change anything.
        During the period of time when / are not yet allocated to it, there is no alternative even theoretically.
        When the shooting is going on, they will shoot everything down together with the cover fighters and their base airfield.
        And the set of equipment on board the drone can be made whatever, as a last resort, if it does not fit on one side, you can send two or three with a different set of equipment.
        Even the author of the opus under discussion admitted that airplanes and drones are not mutually exclusive, but complementary.
        1. bayard
          bayard 17 December 2020 22: 23
          +1
          Quote: Jacket in stock
          Even the author of the opus under discussion admitted that airplanes and drones are not mutually exclusive, but complementary.

          So I do not exclude that, as I wrote above. But so far we have neither sea reconnaissance nor heavy drones with the appropriate set of equipment.
        2. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 20 December 2020 12: 11
          -2
          another important thing is to assemble a UAV and send it on the flight is now cheaper than weaning a team of highly qualified RER specialists.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 17 December 2020 10: 46
        +3
        Quote: bayard
        But a reconnaissance aircraft is both a flying command post and a command relay, and it does not need to continuously broadcast the observed situation at the command post,

        In my opinion, you want to hang too much on these planes - not a single chief of reconnaissance of the district (fleet) will allow this, and the chief of staff will always support him. Cut the sturgeon - it transmits information only to the command post of the OS brigade in the Ground Forces, and in the Navy, as I assume, the same thing, and no other tasks will be hung on such an aircraft - there are so few of them to complete the main task.
  • g1v2
    g1v2 17 December 2020 22: 50
    +2
    Well, if the communication channels of the UAV were so easy to hammer, then very few of the serious players would use them. Again, you can use repeater UAVs or repeater aircraft, spreading a network of them in areas of interest. Americans then use repeaters. request Drlo aircraft are certainly more efficient, but they will be more expensive, it needs a trained crew who are reluctant to take risks. And the UAV CAN DONATE to get closer. Even if they hit him, he will receive and transmit information. request
    Well, we are not living in the 80s. How many satellites were in orbit then and how many are now. Now a small civilian satellite is more perfect than the then military developments. And there are many of them. Aug can hide only under a thunderstorm front, and he is far from everywhere. And it is logically clear that if the Aug has disappeared, it means that it is under a thunderstorm. request Ordinary clouds do not interfere with satellites. They may prevent you from seeing in all the details something, but they definitely won't be able to hide the order. Again, the traffic of the merchant marine in the areas of possible TVD is such that aug even onlookers will have time to take pictures from all angles and put them on the Internet. But reconnaissance aviation is certainly needed. And first of all, an unmanned one. I think the UAVs will soon be replaced by the su24mr. But such serious things as tu214r will of course be difficult to replace - there are too many equipment and specialists in them. But this is a piece goods. request
    Well, what about the base for drlo and plane aircraft. All the latest specialized aircraft based on the Tu214 were created from the already produced civilian aircraft that were stationed in Kazan. In fact, this aircraft is no longer produced. request The base is usually all the same mass-produced machines. IL114 in the configuration for itself is completely domestic. The patrol speed is very low for an airplane. The range is normal for monitoring near and far sea areas. Again, you can put dopbucks. And plus, it was intended in advance, including for such modifications, as the military and representatives of the Oak have repeatedly said. Therefore, the production line in Lukhovitsy was installed. The market for such civil aircraft in the Russian Federation is 100-150 machines. Export prospects are vague, since the market has long had AN140 and it’s not to say that buyers with bundles of banknotes ran after Antonovites. If you order 50-100 cars of various modifications for the Ministry of Defense, it will just be fine.
    Of course, there will also be an import-substituted ms21, but there is a market only in Russia - 450-500 boards. PM civilian aircraft will be a priority for a long time than military ones. We need to squeeze medium-haul watermelons and boeings out of our airlines. request
    Well, according to il76 as a basis for drills. All the same worked out. A50 and a100 based on them. Il76 now, both old ones are being modernized to il76md-m, and new Il-76MD-90A are being built. Again, the production line has already been installed. Obviously, we cannot build anything comparable faster than Il76. hi
  • quaric
    quaric 17 December 2020 00: 38
    +2
    Yeah .. and flies and cutlets. It is no secret that the MQ-4C Triton has a radar - AN / ZPY-3, which is sharpened for searching submarines by radar. The topic has been sucked at VO more than once !!! Let me remind you that due to the perturbation of the wake and the presence of an anomaly such as the Bernoulli Hump, radar systems can detect the presence on the water surface of certain inhomogeneities with a high Doppler component, which allows the SDC radar systems to trigger and detect underwater targets. And in fact, the MQ-4C Triton is not a replacement for the E-2D Hawkeye, but for the good old Lockheed P-3 Orion. With him and compare him.
    1. bayard
      bayard 17 December 2020 03: 05
      +1
      About the appointment of "Triton", quite right.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      17 December 2020 06: 11
      +1
      Quote: quaric
      And in fact, the MQ-4C Triton is not a replacement for the E-2D Hawkeye, but for the good old Lockheed P-3 Orion.

      Is it somehow different in the article?
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 17 December 2020 08: 24
    +1
    A strange set of controversial conclusions from highly controversial arguments.
    Hawkeye is a carrier-based aircraft with limited range and duty time.
    Hawk - has an incomparable autonomy.
    Those. they are very different machines for very different tasks.
    One aircraft carrier cannot be compared with a hundred conventional Hawks, for it can only be in one place, and a hundred Hawks in a hundred different ones.
    In a real combat situation, they will shoot down a hundred Hawks, and a dozen Hawks, and drown the aircraft carrier. And much more if we are talking about a global war. For the war of the US aircraft carrier against the Russian fleet and air force in my understanding can only be like this.
    In peacetime and in the war with Japan / Poland / Turkey ... Hokaev and Nimitsev will not exist, so all the author's arguments are meaningless.
    And yes, the author himself wrote that it is technically not a problem to put on a drone a radar station comparable to the one on Hokai. And if you haven't done it yet, then you just don't need it.

    We would just make a dozen tankers and heels of scouts, and not count spherical horses in a vacuum.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 17 December 2020 10: 54
      0
      Quote: Jacket in stock
      In a real combat situation, both a hundred Hawks and a dozen Hawks will be shot down and drown the aircraft carrier. And much more if we are talking about a global war. For the war of the US aircraft carrier against the Russian fleet and air force in my understanding can only be like this.

      Absolutely everything is correct, that's why all dances with a tambourine around the variety of UAVs, which are supposedly impossible to do without, are not worth a damn. The issue should be considered in a completely different plane - on what developments to spend budget money so that they give us strategic superiority in a critical situation, and not to create a lot of equipment for the prompt solution of problems. Let me remind the projectors once again that Russia is not the USSR and we have a completely different share in world GDP, so we must very carefully assess the risks and what we can create to ensure the destruction of the enemy. UAVs do not guarantee this to us - from here we draw conclusions.
      1. Jacket in stock
        Jacket in stock 17 December 2020 13: 07
        0
        Quote: ccsr
        for guaranteed destruction of the enemy. UAVs do not guarantee this to us - from here we draw conclusions.

        What guarantees?
        As one very cunning said, even an insurance policy does not give guarantees.
        And UAVs provide an opportunity to dramatically increase situational awareness for much less money and without risk to people.
        But since We still have no Hawai-level planes, no Hawk-level drones, no aircraft carriers, or naval aviation in general, then all the blah-blah-blah about spherical horses in a vacuum make sense except to distract from boredom.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 17 December 2020 13: 23
          +1
          Quote: Jacket in stock
          What guarantees?

          Strategic Missile Forces - we just celebrated their holiday.
          Quote: Jacket in stock
          And UAVs provide an opportunity to dramatically increase situational awareness for much less money and without risk to people.

          Do you think that during the threatened period our UAVs will patrol over the territory of America?
          Of course not, and besides the UAV, we have enough other means to track the actions of the US armed forces to understand what state they are in.
          Quote: Jacket in stock
          But since We still have no Hawai-level planes, no Hawk-level drones, no aircraft carriers, or naval aviation in general, then all the blah-blah-blah about spherical horses in a vacuum make sense except to distract from boredom.

          I agree with this approach in assessing the situation. Knowing our budget, we can assume that in the next ten years we will not have the means to satisfy the wishes of many local "theorists of military affairs". Practitioners will only laugh at their irrepressible ambitions, because they know that the "bony hand of financiers" will drag all their good wishes into the grave ...
          1. Lex_is
            Lex_is 17 December 2020 17: 44
            0
            Do you think that during the threatened period our UAVs will patrol over the territory of America?

            No, they will not do. They cannot live above the zones covered by aviation or air defense.
            But, we are talking about a sea drone, and areas that are not covered by anything, but in which you need to patrol, search for enemy submarines, etc. a bunch of.

            You already know perfectly well that drone patrolling creates a lot of problems for the enemy, interfering with the hidden maneuver of submarine and surface forces. The enemy needs to allocate a detachment of forces, which are always in short supply during the conduct of hostilities, to search for and destroy UAVs in the area of ​​the proposed deployment, and 3-4 false deployment areas, at the same time risking these forces being ambushed by air defense or aviation.

            Those Orions and Poseidons are just as easily knocked down by aviation and air defense, while their loss is much more painful, since a trained crew is killed and they are much more expensive while creating a lot of headaches for our fleet.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 17 December 2020 19: 31
              +1
              Quote: Lex_is
              You already know perfectly well that drone patrolling creates a lot of problems for the enemy, interfering with the hidden maneuver of submarine and surface forces.

              In peacetime, no more than the flight of our reconnaissance aircraft.
              And in general, as far as I understand, the attack by the forces of the fleet on us from the US side will still be carried out from nuclear submarines, and finding them by drones 4-5 thousand km from our shores is practically an insoluble problem, especially taking into account the UAV's flight speed.
              Therefore, to hope that the UAV will solve all the problems of marine reconnaissance, in my opinion, is too utopian. Although I do not deny that we need UAVs, the whole question is what class and in what quantity.
              Quote: Lex_is
              The same Orions and Poseidons are just as easily knocked down by aviation and air defense,

              During hostilities, they do not enter the zone of air defense and fighter aircraft - this is an axiom.
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 17 December 2020 14: 32
      0
      And yes, the author himself wrote that to put a radar on the drone comparable to the one that is technically not a problem on Hokai
      only then it will be in price and size like Hawkeye himself, and will require more refueling in the air, with an aircraft carrier to a heap :))) is it worth it !?
  • Hexenmeister
    Hexenmeister 17 December 2020 10: 05
    0
    AN / APY-9 combines the advantages of mechanical and electronic scanning
    There is no advantage of a mechanical drive over an electronic one, and accordingly this "hybrid" (mechanical-electronic) will always lose to a completely electronic one.
    consider AWACS aircraft in general and Hawkeye in particular simply as a flying radar ... But this is not entirely true. Or, to be more precise, it is not at all so ... "Hawkeye" has very powerful means of electronic intelligence.
    Any modern fighter should have the same set of systems.
    We can even say that its radar is more likely a means of additional reconnaissance of targets and illumination of the situation in battle. That is, a Hawkeye with the radar off on patrol is a completely normal phenomenon. He will first identify targets by passive means and only then turn on the radar to clarify the situation.
    All this would be very fine in the presence of fully electronic scanning, but it is not, and given the need for a circular view and a mechanical drive, a primitive version is obtained, the operation of which will be easily predictable for "normal" electronic warfare systems.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      17 December 2020 12: 41
      +3
      Quote: Hexenmeister
      There is no advantage of a mechanical drive over an electronic one, and accordingly this "hybrid" (mechanical-electronic) will always lose to a completely electronic one.

      Americans think differently
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 17 December 2020 14: 28
        0
        duc, they
        stupid
        :) so they do not know that the competencies on the leading Russian site have been revealed and expertly declared that there are no advantages and completely loses ...
      2. Hexenmeister
        Hexenmeister 17 December 2020 14: 29
        0
        Without explanation, absolutely empty answer! The answer in the form "they can't do it any other way" is a normal answer. smile
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          17 December 2020 17: 53
          +2
          Quote: Hexenmeister
          Without explanation, absolutely empty answer!

          I still apologize, but you should give the reasons. The Americans did what they did, and they believe it is right. Disputing? Object to the point.
          Quote: Hexenmeister
          Only that the Americans on fighters are moving away from such good and cheap antennas with a mechanical drive to antennas with fully electronic control of the position of the main beam of the DN, for example, the same AFAR ???

          Tell us, on which US fighter did the Americans manage to achieve a 360-degree radar view?
          Quote: Hexenmeister
          And he has a mechanical drive, which means that the moment of viewing a given area can be predicted in advance

          The fact that, if necessary, Hawkeye can easily stop the movement of the antenna and scan the selected sector of space with his AFAR, of course, you did not take into account
          1. Hexenmeister
            Hexenmeister 17 December 2020 20: 52
            0
            Well, I will give my arguments, it is not profitable for the Americans to make a new Hawkeye for electronic scanning, and therefore they hold on to the mechanics. To stop the canvas, say, and that we will get plus / minus 60 degrees with large losses at the extreme positions on the signal, but if there is another important target from the back of the canvas? Wait a shitty number of seconds until the drive starts and the antenna unfolds, losing both targets for a while? Therefore, we will classify the Hokai radar as a "middling", and not as described in the article "the world's best flying radar". Now regarding the all-round view, let's take the F-22 and SU-57, how many canvases are there? Three, this is at a facility significantly smaller than Hawkeye! Which zone will be there? So, if you want, you can place more canvases on "dimensional" objects.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              18 December 2020 06: 09
              +1
              Quote: Hexenmeister
              Well, I will give my arguments, it is not profitable for the Americans to make a new Hawkeye for electronic scanning, and therefore they stick to the mechanics.

              I guess you're right, not profitable. Because in its present form, Hokai's radar is practically all-seeing, but in order to provide the same effect with electronic scanning alone, about 8 canvases are required. With them, the plane will become extremely expensive.
              Quote: Hexenmeister
              Stop the canvas, say, and that we will get plus / minus 60 degrees with large losses at the extreme positions on the signal

              Do I understand correctly that you think that a much more modest radar of the same Penguin has even worse capabilities?
              Quote: Hexenmeister
              Therefore, we will classify the Hokai radar as a "middling", and not as described in the article "the world's best flying radar".

              No, we won't. In order to attribute it to the middle peasants, it is necessary to list the AWACS aircraft that are better than the Hawaiian today.
              Quote: Hexenmeister
              Now about the all-round view, let's take the F-22 and SU-57, how many canvases are there?

              On the F-22 - one, on the Su-57 - five. Here are just of these five - four auxiliary ones, which do not have the capabilities that the main Squirrel has
              1. Hexenmeister
                Hexenmeister 18 December 2020 09: 38
                0
                how much more modest in size radar of the same Penguin has even worse capabilities?
                Two points should be separated here, for any flat grating (AFAR, not AFAR), the greater the angle of deviation from the axis, the greater the loss in the signal, this is geometry. The second moment, the larger the deflection angle, the more the "non-omnidirectionality" of individual radiating elements is manifested, an omnidirectional element can never be created. But these systems have a different range, and in what range and due to what the best "omnidirectionality" will be obtained, I am not strong here.
                about 8 canvases
                Here, too, everything is not simple, the easiest way is to poke flat canvases, but if you ride the "flight of creative imagination in engineering work", then you can try to solve the problem of creating "conformal" canvases, each of which will be better than flat canvases in the pumping zone, and a compromise in the aircraft design , which allowed all this to be placed, the twenty-first century in the yard. And that type of "slaughter" the appearance for the sake of stealth is please, and the "bulge" for the canvas is "impossible", especially for the AWACS aircraft.
                On the F-22 - one, on the Su-57 - five
                About the F-22 here at the Forum they wrote that they added two more canvases, and on the Su-57 three canvases are used specifically for radar, and the side canvases in the bow are perfectly visible in the photographs.
    2. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 17 December 2020 13: 09
      0
      Quote: Hexenmeister
      There is no advantage of a mechanical drive over an electronic one, and accordingly this "hybrid" (mechanical-electronic) will always lose to a completely electronic one.

      Lose what?
      In price, for example, other things being equal, it will win with a big advantage.
      1. Hexenmeister
        Hexenmeister 17 December 2020 14: 27
        0
        Only that the Americans on fighters are moving away from such good and cheap antennas with a mechanical drive to antennas with fully electronic control of the position of the main beam of the DN, for example, the same AFAR ???
        1. Jacket in stock
          Jacket in stock 17 December 2020 15: 11
          0
          Quote: Hexenmeister
          Only this is what the Americans on fighters are moving away from such good and cheap mechanically driven antennas.

          The fighter's performance is more critical than the AWACS.
          Hokai's diagram parameters are more critical. And the diagram deteriorates greatly when deviating from the vertical.
          So a compromise.
          1. Hexenmeister
            Hexenmeister 17 December 2020 15: 32
            0
            So the compromise
            I disagree, an AWACS aircraft is, let's say, a "critical" object, if it cannot receive information, then it is unlikely that anyone else can do it. And he has a mechanical drive, which means that the moment of review of a given area can be predicted in advance, and you can "charge" an "electronic warfare outfit" for his radar, you should not rely on passive means either, plus the antenna itself on Hokai is "not a fountain", which is a reason for "scooping up a hindrance from the space in barrels".
  • iouris
    iouris 17 December 2020 12: 12
    0
    The incredible is obvious. The fatherland only needs to acquire many different competencies. If you start today, it will take thirty years. True, the coronavirus, the dog, does not allow learning, it mows the best shots. Anyway ...
  • Lex_is
    Lex_is 17 December 2020 13: 25
    0
    Andrey, thanks for the great article!
    Everything is competent and to the point!
  • Intruder
    Intruder 17 December 2020 14: 26
    0
    even having an RTR station, a UAV will never figure out which of the objects it discovered is an enemy combat aircraft, and which is a civilian airliner flying away from the combat area. Or where is the enemy destroyer, and where is the neutral bulk carrier.
    aha, the author has not heard about optical signatures and image analysis, even in the civilian field, neural algorithms with deep machine MNL with a bang, recognize an image by multiple points from image sensors! even in low light conditions, welcome to the field of computational photography, plus a 3D lidar module, even smartphones are now being installed, with mediocre optics, clearly inferior to military equipment! And signatures can be processed in a data center, not on board a UAV, again, the area of ​​peripheral computing accelerators, they are actively riveted by IBM and Intel for any budget, and by the way, such servers with two accelerators are not so much from 8k bucks, well this is so from the area already consumer goods;)))
    1. Hexenmeister
      Hexenmeister 17 December 2020 14: 39
      0
      even having an RTR station

      ha, I have not heard about optical signatures and image analysis

      It's about the systems of Radio Engineering Intelligence, which have nothing to do with optics!
    2. merkava-2bet
      merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 15: 25
      +2
      Regarding RTR systems, a library of signatures has long been used for all surface / ground and air objects, like those of submariners. The combination of RTR systems and navigation / satellite systems dramatically increases the accuracy and reliability of intelligence data.
      Regarding jamming signals, this is from the field of armor and a projectile, progress always keeps pace with the times.
    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      17 December 2020 17: 58
      0
      Quote: Intruder
      yeah, the author hasn't heard about optical signatures and image analysis

      I heard. That is why I say - it will not understand closely.
      1. Pushkowed
        Pushkowed 18 December 2020 10: 32
        0
        But then it already becomes "not so simple" with the statement:
        The Hawk has an advantage in visual aids - an optoelectronic camera, infrared sensors ... And all this is necessary and important for conducting reconnaissance in certain conditions, but is unlikely to be too useful for long-range sea reconnaissance purposes.
        In naval intelligence, this is not only useful, but also has no alternative. Target identification only by its radar / electronic signature is too unreliable compared to optical.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 18 December 2020 12: 33
          +1
          Quote: Pushkowed
          Target identification only by its radar / electronic signature is too unreliable compared to optical.

          It is interesting where this conclusion comes from, especially since clouds often interfere with optics, but satellites with radar stations and radio and electronic intelligence stations can very accurately determine the area where any warship is located, at least by the peculiarities of the operation of its electronic equipment. It’s hard for me to believe that during a cruise on a warship all electronic equipment is turned off - should they periodically report to a higher control body or not?
          1. Pushkowed
            Pushkowed 19 December 2020 10: 23
            -1
            I wonder where this conclusion comes from
            Radar only gives a mark on the screen. From it, you can only estimate the location, speed and approximate size of the ship. (Australian destroyer? Chinese frigate? Chilean bulk carrier?) Radio-technical and electronic reconnaissance can only determine the nature and intensity of radiation. At the same time, warships always have ordinary "civil" navigation radars for routine work in peacetime. And there are also communication systems of civil standards there (the same Inmarsat). If an enemy warship is tasked not to betray itself, then it can easily pretend to be a neutral civilian ship. Neither the flag, nor the silhouette, and even more so the name (side number) of the sea target cannot be found out using radio equipment. A mistake in such a situation can be very expensive. (up to the entry of neutrals into the war on the side of the enemy). While escorting tankers in the Persian Gulf, the Americans forbade their ships (even if they were attacked) to use weapons without prior visual identification of the target. But bringing your manned planes or surface ships to a detected unknown target for its identification is too risky. This is what marine UAVs should do.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 19 December 2020 20: 01
              +1
              Quote: Pushkowed
              Radar only gives a mark on the screen. From it, you can only estimate the location, speed and approximate size of the ship. (Australian destroyer? Chinese frigate? Chilean bulk carrier?)

              So they are monitored around the clock - how can it evaporate so that no one can find it at its intended location?
              Quote: Pushkowed
              Radio engineering and electronic intelligence can only determine the nature and intensity of radiation.

              Who told you such nonsense? Each tool is sistmatized, and if there are any indirect signs for a given device, they are also taken into account. Even the radar rotation speed and the radiated power can be different for ships of the same type, if the time of their commissioning differs greatly in time.
              Quote: Pushkowed
              If an enemy warship is tasked with not giving itself out, then it can easily pretend to be a neutral civilian ship.

              Then, based on your assumption, it is necessary to close the shop called the naval reconnaissance structures. Only this is not necessary - they already had their own reconnaissance satellites in the sixties of the last century, and somehow they learned to determine the ship's identity even from the images of those years, though not as quickly as now.
              Quote: Pushkowed
              A mistake in such a situation can have a very high cost (up to the entry of neutrals into the war on the side of the enemy).

              Ostap has suffered ... Everyone is dreaming of attacking a nuclear power, especially the Baltic neighbors.
              Quote: Pushkowed
              During the escort of tankers in the Persian Gulf, the Americans forbade their ships (even if they were attacked) to use weapons without prior visual identification of the target

              Tell this to the dead people of a civilian Iranian plane that was shot down by a US Navy ship without any visual target identification, but simply because the ship's captain made that decision. And he was not punished, by the way ...
              Do you really believe everything Americans write or are you just so gullible in some cases?
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          19 December 2020 13: 52
          0
          Quote: Pushkowed
          But then it already becomes "not so simple" with the statement:

          Just - definitely. Firstly, at some decent distance, you can only see the IR signal, and there is little to identify from it. And to a closer distance, from which identification is somehow possible, no one will let the UAV in.
  • merkava-2bet
    merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 14: 42
    +4
    Good afternoon Andrey, a good overview but not complete, and there are also inaccuracies.
    1) The RQ-4 UAV has a satellite channel up to 50 Mbit / s, and how can it be tracked if there is no reconnaissance satellite over its patrol area?
    2) You have not described the modernization subprograms of the "Spiral-1..5" type, in the course of them its capabilities were gradually increased, in particular, the resolution on the ground up to 0,3 meters.
    3) The upgrades themselves, some of the latest Block30 and Block40.
    1. merkava-2bet
      merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 15: 13
      0
      Here are a couple of open source schematics.
      http://airwar.ru/image/idop/bpla/rq4/rq4-2.gif
      http://airwar.ru/image/idop/bpla/rq4/rq4-3.gif
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      17 December 2020 17: 57
      0
      Good evening! hi
      Quote: merkava-2bet
      The RQ-4 UAV has a satellite channel of up to 50 Mbps, and how can it be tracked if there is no reconnaissance satellite over its patrol area?

      Like other emitting objects
      Quote: merkava-2bet
      You have not described the modernization subprograms of the "Spiral-1..5" type, in the course of them its capabilities were gradually increased, in particular, the resolution on the ground up to 0,3 meters.

      Didn't know, but fundamentally it doesn't change anything
      1. merkava-2bet
        merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 20: 14
        0
        I only looked at one site.
        http://airwar.ru/enc/bpla/rq4.html
      2. merkava-2bet
        merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 20: 18
        +1
        [b1) The RQ-4 UAV has a satellite channel up to 50 Mbit / s, and how can it be tracked if there is no reconnaissance satellite over its patrol area?][/B]
        You still haven't answered the question?
      3. merkava-2bet
        merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 20: 33
        +1
        It also affects the improvement of clarity from 6 meters to 0,3 meters, which is 20.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          18 December 2020 06: 12
          +1
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          You still haven't answered the question?

          Replied. Let me remind you that today some RTR systems (such as Kolchuga) are able to detect non-radiating objects. The emitting object is somewhat easier to detect.
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          It also affects the improvement of clarity from 6 meters to 0,3 meters, which is 20.

          Does not affect, because it does not give anything extra for early detection of warships or other targets
          1. merkava-2bet
            merkava-2bet 19 December 2020 00: 47
            +1
            Kolchuga-M cannot detect passive targets, only emitting ones. I read about it, the usual RTR system.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 19 December 2020 20: 33
              0
              Quote: merkava-2bet
              Kolchuga-M cannot detect passive targets, only emitting ones. I read about it, the usual RTR system.

              You are clearly not in the subject of passive RTR systems, because any flying object, which even has everything turned off, nevertheless re-radiates signals from operating radars located in the course of its flight. And there can be many such radars and they can be located even in other countries, which is why, knowing the electromagnetic environment in the field of operation of RTR stations, specialists will rather quickly reveal both the direction of flight and even the speed of movement of the aircraft. Unless, of course, he will fly in the North Pole region, or somewhere else where there are no radar stations.
              1. merkava-2bet
                merkava-2bet 19 December 2020 22: 31
                +2
                The principle of a bistatic or spaced antenna array is known to me, it was about the RTR Kolchuga station.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 20 December 2020 11: 01
                  0
                  Quote: merkava-2bet
                  it was about the RTR Kolchuga station.

                  Which one - modern Ukrainian or old Soviet? Are you sure that our current RTR stations of the Kolchuga type are not able to determine the flight parameters of an aircraft using enemy ground radars, and what could they do back in Soviet times?
  • merkava-2bet
    merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 14: 54
    +2
    Quote: merkava-2bet
    Good afternoon Andrey, a good overview but not complete, and there are also inaccuracies.
    1) The RQ-4 UAV has a satellite channel up to 50 Mbit / s, and how can it be tracked if there is no reconnaissance satellite over its patrol area?
    2) You have not described the modernization subprograms of the "Spiral-1..5" type, in the course of them its capabilities were gradually increased, in particular, the resolution on the ground up to 0,3 meters.
    3) The upgrades themselves, some of the latest Block30 and Block40.

    In addition, they are actively working out an automatic refueling system in flight, both from tankers and from the same type of UAVs, and at the moment they are ahead of the rest on this issue.
    They are also already working out a satellite laser data transmission system, including for the Triton marine modification.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      17 December 2020 17: 57
      0
      Quote: merkava-2bet
      They are also already working out a satellite laser data transmission system, including for the Triton marine modification.

      With very limited bandwidth as I understand it
      1. merkava-2bet
        merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 18: 46
        +1
        Not Andrei.
        The American company General Atomics has tested a laser satellite communication system being developed for the MQ-9 Reaper attack unmanned aerial vehicle.
        The laser communication system for the drone is based on the LCT135 terminal of the American company Tesat-Spacecom. This terminal supports data exchange at speeds up to 1,8 gigabits per second, providing information transfer over a distance of 80 thousand kilometers. Other details about the tested communication system are not specified.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 17 December 2020 19: 38
          0
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          providing information transfer over a distance of up to 80 thousand kilometers.

          Where are you going to place such equipment?
          And it is completely incomprehensible how atmospheric precipitation and other interference will affect the laser channel, if there are distances even of several hundred kilometers. Can you enlighten us?
          1. merkava-2bet
            merkava-2bet 17 December 2020 20: 04
            +1
            Do mercy, read it on the Internet, otherwise you live on a collective farm.
            [bhttps: //ko.com.ua/na_ocheredi_terabitnye_sputnikovye_kanaly_svyazi_133618]
            https://zoom.cnews.ru/rnd/news/top/vpervye_osushchestvlena_lazernaya_svyaz_mezhdu_sputnikom_i_samoletom[/B]
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 18 December 2020 12: 21
              0
              Quote: merkava-2bet
              Do mercy, read it on the Internet, otherwise you live on a collective farm.

              The Internet is a big dump, even more so in Ukrainian. So do not evade, but just tell us where the figure of 80 thousand km came from, if our geostationary orbits are much lower. Do you have any idea what this distance is? So what about the laser beam - tell me in a popular form, otherwise, as I understand it, you are "neither bae, nor me, nor crow" ...
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 18 December 2020 12: 40
              0
              Quote: merkava-2bet
              Do mercy, read it on the Internet, otherwise you live on a collective farm.

              Read carefully the zootechnician, what you give yourself:
              During the tests of the laser communication system, which took place in early December 2006, communication at a distance of almost 40 thousand km was carried out twice - once the Mystere 20 aircraft was at an altitude of 6 thousand meters, on another time the flight altitude was 10 thousand meters. The aircraft's speed was about 500 km / h, the data transfer rate by a laser beam was 50 Mb / s. The data was transmitted to the Artemis geostationary telecommunications satellite.

              What kind of 80 thousand smart guy, if it was a satellite in geostationary orbit?
              And it is not clear what kind of connection was one-way or two-way, in order to assert that the connection will be stable - testing is not a system adopted for service. And the speed of 50 Mbit / s is very different from the declared 1,8 Gbit / s - this is already alarming, because we have water vapor up to several tens of kilometers in the atmosphere.
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          18 December 2020 06: 16
          +1
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          The laser communication system for the drone is based on the LCT135 terminal of the American company Tesat-Spacecom. This terminal supports data exchange at speeds up to 1,8 gigabits per second, providing information transfer over a distance of 80 thousand kilometers. Other details about the tested communication system are not specified.

          Well, we will wait until they are clarified. To date, there is no such system
          By the way, in the note you quoted it is written
          At the same time, the use of laser communication systems complicate interception of sent data, especially in the case of information transfer from an aircraft to a satellite.

          That is, invisibility is not guaranteed even for a laser system, let alone a regular signal ...
  • Shopping Mall
    Shopping Mall 18 December 2020 15: 12
    +1
    It is clear in whose garden the stone is wink Well this is good, the truth is born in disputes.

    And it will be easiest to do this by comparing two aircraft that have at least a relatively similar purpose. Namely - UAVs RQ-4 Global Hawk and E-2D Advanced Hawkeye


    Absolutely not similar. The first is a reconnaissance aircraft, which does not even have the ability to detect air targets, the second is an AWACS aircraft. Such machines are still being created, we could be the first with projects of UAV AWACS "Sukhoi", but most likely the Chinese will be.

    Let's take a look at such an interesting indicator as the mass of an empty aircraft. For the Hawk it is 6 kg, while the Hawkai is much more - 781 kg.


    This leads to the difference in equipment. It does not matter for him (equipment) whether to stand on a manned aircraft or on a UAV.

    The Global Hawk is equipped with the HISAR integrated surveillance and reconnaissance system. It is a simplified and cheaper version of the ASARS-2 complex installed on the famous American U-2 “Dragon Lady” reconnaissance aircraft. As you know, the U-2 is a manned aircraft. However, the empty weight of the latest versions of the Lady is only 7 kg. That is, the difference with the Hawk is not to say that significant.


    ASARS-2 was developed in 1980 and upgraded to ASARS-2A in 2001. The question is that there is no exact data on the essence of the “simplifications”. There is information that in some areas the Global Hawk UAV radar is superior to the U-2 radar - "Block 40 Global Hawks are equipped with a new MP-RTIP sensor, which provides superior moving target indication (MTI) compared to ASARS"

    “The Global Hawk is also equipped with the Raytheon AN / ALR-89 self-defense kit, which consists of an AN / ALR-90 RWR receiver, an AN / AVR-3, AN / APR-49 laser warning system, an arming system jamming and towed false target AN / ALE-50. "

    this radar is capable of scanning and detecting moving targets within a radius of 100 km. At the same time, it is possible to observe with a resolution of 6 meters behind a strip 37 km wide and 20 to 110 km long. And in a special mode, the radar provides a resolution of 1,8 meters over an area of ​​10 square meters. km.

    There are more questions than answers. It is indicated that the Hoka radar is designed to monitor ground objects. But does this mean that he cannot control the airspace? Does the 100 km radius apply exclusively to ground targets? Or also to the air? Is this radar adapted to work in a difficult jamming environment?


    And there is also information that:
    “The synthetic aperture radar is manufactured by Raytheon (Hughes) and is designed to operate in all weather conditions. In normal operation it provides a 1 meter resolution radar image of the area. In a day, an image can be obtained from an area of ​​138 km² at a distance of 000 km. Spotlight mode captures an area of ​​200 × 2 km, more than 2 images with a resolution of 24 m can be obtained in 1900 hours. "

    Those. there are some inaccuracies in the data that make it difficult to determine the capabilities of the Global Hawk UAV radar. For 1,8 meters of resolution, the range is not indicated, while for a range of 200 km it is said about a resolution of 1 m2, and with a narrow beam and up to 0,3 m2.

    But if the radar sees with a resolution of 0,3-1 m2 at 200 km, then at what distance will it see an object with a resolution of 10 m2?

    For work on air targets - it seems that such an upgrade is only planned, while there is no such possibility.
    1. Shopping Mall
      Shopping Mall 18 December 2020 15: 13
      +1
      And, as far as you can understand, no upgrades of the Hoka ("dancing with a tambourine") can even remotely bring the capabilities of the Hoka closer to the Hokai.


      It is logical, considering that these are machines for different purposes.

      Let's imagine that we have an RQ-4 Global Hawk at our disposal and the task is to reveal the location of an enemy AUG, which has an E-2D Advanced Hawkeye at its disposal. What happens in this case?


      Why send an unsuitable RQ-4 Global Hawk, and not a machine created on its basis, and focused specifically on solving the problem of searching for AUG? Which does not have an RTR, which will cause:

      Since he does not have an RTR station, he will have to turn on the radar in search mode.




      In this case, alas, events will develop exactly according to the scenario described above: they will be shot down without benefit for the cause. The bottom line is that a manned aircraft can maintain a radio silence mode, then it will not be so easy to detect it by means of RTR. But the UAV, alas, is a radiating object - in order to transmit the intelligence it received to the ground, it needs a very powerful transmitter capable of pumping at least 50 Mbps.


      But it radiates to the satellite, and most likely not with a broadband antenna, but with a directional one. There are side lobes, but the UAV with RTR is guaranteed to detect the Hawkeye with the radar on before the Hawkeye detects the satellite communication side lobes. PMSM UAV with RTR will detect Hokai from 600 kilometers.

      In addition, I have no doubts about the emergence of laser covert communication systems on high-altitude UAVs. There are almost no clouds above 15 km, and if there is, then very weak. Now on the Starlink satellites it will be worked out, and then it will appear on other types of equipment - such a connection can only be detected by chance.

      And if you put a radar from the Hawkeye on the UAV? It's possible. And the RTR station can be “plugged in” without any problems. More precisely, there will be only one problem - such a UAV will be comparable in size to a manned aircraft. This means that in terms of flight time / range, alas, too. But the cost, most likely, will go off scale - and then is it necessary to fence the garden with the UAV at all?


      Why on earth would an increase in size lead to a decrease in flight range? Then small UAVs would fly the longest. It is a question of the ratio of size, engine efficiency and payload mass. The UAV will in any case be more distant than the manned aircraft due to the abandonment of life support systems.
      1. Shopping Mall
        Shopping Mall 18 December 2020 15: 13
        +1
        It consists in the fact that not a single American military man, being in his right mind and sober memory, will never go to use either the Hawaiian or the Hawk in the zone of enemy air domination.


        If we are talking about AUG, then formally there is no dominance. AUG moves, AWACS aircraft control the space around it. If you abandon the active mode, then you can miss the raid of the anti-ship missile system, the control center to which the satellite or submarine issued. Therefore, this is hardly an option when the fighting is already underway.

        An attempt to send a single AWACS aircraft for reconnaissance unaccompanied into the zone of action of enemy aircraft will lead to an obvious and predictable result - it will be shot down there without any benefit to the sender. With UAVs of similar purpose, of course, the same will happen.


        If an AWACS aircraft patrols at a distance of 400 km from an aircraft carrier, how long will fighters be able to accompany it? How quickly will their resource be spent, what will be the fatigue of the pilots during long continuous patrols?

        Send UAVs under cover of fighters? And where to get them somewhere in remote sea areas? It turns out that we need our own aircraft carriers.


        Or long-range fighters. Or UAVs with the ability to engage air targets, controlled from an AWACS or RTR aircraft (not UAVs) and / or from satellites.

        But if this is so, then preference should be given not to UAV AWACS, but to conventional manned aircraft of a similar purpose. Indeed, in the event of an air battle, a manned AWACS aircraft will perfectly act as a "flying headquarters". But the UAV for this will have to "merge" gigabytes of information "on the ground." And so - to lead the battle from afar. And all this is much less reliable.


        So far, yes, but if networks like Starlink appear, which is inevitable, then delays will be minimal, and the reliability and speed of communication will be extremely high.

        But a manned AWACS can be quite good if it will be the control center for the slave UAVs.

        This UAV received both an electronic reconnaissance station and an AFAR, but the latter had very moderate characteristics. The English-language wiki, for example, claims to be able to locate 360 ​​degrees along a course, scanning 5200 square kilometers in one cycle. It sounds, of course, weighty. But if we recall the formula for the area of ​​a circle, it turns out that the range of this "super radar" is about 40 km


        This is not true. It only means that this area is obtained in one pass. Imagine a flashlight beam with which you made a full turn - you don't have to shine at your feet, do you? The area swept in one pass is the difference between the outer and inner radius.


        Each circle can be the same "5200 square kilometers in one cycle." Only at different ranges
  • nobody75
    nobody75 22 December 2020 12: 49
    -1
    Obviously, we'll send our Hawk on a search. Since he does not have an RTR station, he will have to turn on the radar in search mode.

    You won't have to. The search for AUG will be carried out by locating the wake trail with a hydrolidar. Or by setting hydroacoustic buoys by helicopters with field control by a drone (as in the movie "Sea Battle")
    Sincerely
  • Stepan S
    Stepan S 5 February 2021 21: 06
    0
    Since in peacetime the ship is more at sea and performs various tasks, the presence of even a simple UAV on board can be considered useful and at the same time gain experience in its use. And you can launch the UAV directly from the deck to thread reconnaissance.