Military Review

Combat ships. "Colonists" are simply the best of the best

110
This class of light cruisers was also called "Colonies". It was assumed that the primary task of these ships would be to protect shipping at a great distance from the metropolis, in the colonies, of which Great Britain had many. And in the second place - action as part of a squadron or formation.


Today, looking back, it is safe to say that these ships were among the best representatives of the class of light cruisers. For many reasons, which we will now begin to iterate over.


Naturally, the ships owe their appearance to the London Agreement, which in 1936 limited the displacement to eight thousand tons. In principle, the British Admiralty was fine with all this, and therefore, having temporarily abandoned the construction of heavy cruisers, which the country already had, all efforts were concentrated on creating a new light cruiser. Such a ship was just very necessary, since at the end of the First World War, British losses from German raiders were very tangible.

Apparently, someone in the military department felt that it would only get worse in the future ...

In general, the British designers were assigned to the project of a light cruiser with a displacement of 8 tons and with a main caliber of 000 mm. And here the most important question was "how much to hang in the barrels?", Because the main caliber is still a very important thing on a light cruiser.


The project of the cruiser "Southampton" was taken as a basis, a lot was taken from it, but the new cruiser was supposed to be 1000 tons lighter. In general, "Southampton" was developed as a response to the Japanese "Mogami", so the new ship was designed with some eye to the Japanese, since they did not sign the contract, and they could build on the sly anything that came to their mind. The Japanese skills to build something epoch-making had to be taken seriously. To fit 10 000-mm guns in 15 tons was a lot, so I had to look around.

At first, the designers decided to install four-gun turrets on the new cruiser, but this would entail an increase in displacement by 500 tons. The idea was to install ten guns in four towers, like on the Pensacola, two three-gun towers, two two-gun towers. It was decided to take the anti-aircraft armament and the booking scheme from the Gloucester-class cruiser. But this decision also weighed the cruiser up to 8900 tons.

The next project consisted of three turrets with three guns each. By reducing the booking, the designers were able to fit everything into 8 tons, with only 000 tons left for the armor.

Then the race began, as a result of which weight was saved bit by bit. We played with the thickness of the armor belt, the power plant, the thickness of the turret armor.

The result was a cruiser with a displacement of 8 tons with a speed of 500 knots and a power of 32,5 hp, armed with twelve 77000-mm guns in three-gun turrets.


In general, there were as many alterations and developments as there were probably not with any class of British cruisers. Power plants changed, the number of auxiliary caliber guns, the number of catapults and aircraft changed. In total, 34 projects of this class of cruisers were proposed for consideration by the Admiralty Commission!

As a result, the naval leadership settled on a ship with twelve 152-mm guns with a total displacement of 8360 tons. But 8 tons were needed. Therefore, in order to enter the limit of 000 tons, it was decided to reduce the thickness of the barbets and some bulkheads from 8 to 000 mm. The frontal armor of the turrets was also reduced from 50 to 25 mm.

The final design of the new cruiser with a displacement of 8 tons was submitted for approval in November 170. The series planned to build nine ships. The construction of the first five cruisers was financed according to the budget of 1937-1937, the rest four a year later.


The first group of cruisers included "Fiji", "Kenya", "Mauritius", "Nigeria" and "Trinidad". Construction began at the end of 1937. The second group of cruisers consisted of the Ceylon, Jamaica, Gambia and Uganda began construction in March 1939.

During construction, the displacement of the cruisers is quite expected; it increased slightly. On the little things, a more modern catapult, torpedo tubes, radar ... Everything seems to be on the topic, but the "Fiji" upon completion of construction had a displacement of 8 tons instead of 631 tons according to plan.

But that was only the beginning. Time passed, the war continued, and therefore more and more various useful things appeared, which it was unrealistic to refuse. Therefore, for example, the cruiser "Uganda", which entered service in January 1942, already had a displacement of 8 tons, and even more when fully loaded - 846 tons.

On tests, "Fiji" showed a very good speed of 32,25 knots with 80 hp from the power plant.

Combat ships. "Colonists" are simply the best of the best

A distinctive feature of the cruiser can be considered a superbly organized and comfortable command bridge. True, judging by the photographs, the cruiser could easily participate in the competition for the ugliest bridge. But this is the case when beauty is good and convenience is better.

Speaking of convenience. The British sailors cannot be reproached for being overly effeminate. These guys didn't need special conditions. But the Fiji-class cruisers were not very hospitable. The small size and overcrowding of the equipment made the living conditions not very comfortable. The decks were more than overcrowded.

The third main turret was not installed on the last three cruisers of the series. In its place, anti-aircraft weapons were additionally installed.


In fact, cruisers like Fiji or Colony were a more compact version of Southampton. Shorter and narrower, but not losing anything due to the fact that it turned out to be more compact to place all systems and equipment.

The standard displacement was 8 tons, the total displacement was 666 tons.
The total length of the hull is 169, 31 m, width - 18,9 m, draft - 6,04 m.

Reservation

The main booking was an armored belt 89 mm thick in the area of ​​artillery cellars, decreasing to 82,5 mm in the engine room.
The armored deck went over the armor belt, its thickness was 51 mm, above the tiller compartment - 38 mm.
The towers were armored 50 mm in the frontal part, 25 mm on the sides.

Power plant

The main power plant consisted of four Parsons turbo-gear units and four three-collector steam boilers of the Admiralty type. And, accordingly, four shafts with screws.

The maximum speed shown during tests under ideal conditions was 32,25 knots, measurements at sea showed a slightly lower speed, 30,3 knots.

The cruising range at 16 knots was 10 km. The circulation radius was 600 m at a speed of 686 knots.

The number of crew in peacetime was 733 people, in wartime it increased to 920.

weaponry

The main caliber consisted of 12 152 mm / 50 BL Mark XXIII guns. The guns were installed in three-gun towers in a linearly elevated manner, two at the bow and two at the stern.


The rate of fire of the guns is 6-8 rounds per minute, the muzzle velocity of the projectile is 841 m / sec, and the firing range at an elevation angle of the gun of 45 degrees is 23,2 km.

The auxiliary artillery of the Fiji-class cruisers consisted of eight 102-mm Mk XVI universal guns in four twin mounts.


The rate of fire of universal guns was 15-20 rounds per minute, the muzzle velocity of the projectile was 811 m / s.
Firing range at surface targets - 18,15 km;
The firing range at air targets is 11,89 km.

Small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery consisted of two quad mounts of 40-mm machine guns "pom-pom" Mk VIII (QF.2 pdr)


The rate of fire is 115 rounds per minute, the initial speed of the projectile is 701 m / s, the firing range is from 3,47 to 4,57 km.

The cruisers' mine-torpedo armament consisted of two 533-mm three-tube torpedo tubes, one per side.

Aviation Armament

"Fiji" carried a catapult and from two ("Uganda", "Newfoundland", "Ceylon") to three (all other ships of the series) Supermarine "Walrus" reconnaissance aircraft.


The plane, let's say, did not shine with characteristics, but as a close reconnaissance spotter it could act quite normally.

The cruisers were necessarily equipped with radars. These were complexes of the type 279, 281, 284, 285.

As soon as the war began and it was understood that the role of aviation was clearly underestimated, the cruisers began to receive anti-aircraft weapons in the process of modernization.

"Fiji" shortly before the death received two quad mounts of machine guns "Vickers" and a radar type 284.

Kenya was ahead of everyone else in terms of modernization. In 1941, it was equipped with two 20-mm machine guns from the "Oerlikon" and two radars, type 273 and 284. In 1942, instead of single "Erlikons", six paired 40-mm automatic "Bofors" were installed, and in 1943 two more were installed paired 20-mm "Erlikonov" installations. In April 1945, the elevated aft turret was removed and instead of it, two twin 40-mm Bofors units were placed, and the pom-poms were replaced with twin Bofors. The Oerlikons were also changed to Bofors. As a result, the cruiser anti-aircraft armament consisted of 18 40-mm barrels (5 x 2 and 8 x 1).

"Mauritius" in 1942 received four single 20-mm "Erlikons" and radars of types 273, 284 and 285. In June 1943, the aircraft catapult was removed, and in its place were placed 20 (!) Single-barreled "Erlikons" and two quad mounts of machine guns MG.

"Nigeria" in 1941 received four 20-mm assault rifles, in 1942 they added radars 273 and 284, two quad machine gun mounts. In 1943, all anti-aircraft weapons were removed and eight twin 20-mm "Erlikonov" installations were installed instead.

"Trinidad" before his death managed to receive two single 20-mm machine guns.

"Gambia" in February 1942 had six single 20-mm machine guns. In 1943, aviation equipment, pom-pom guns and single 20-mm anti-aircraft guns were removed, and ten paired 20-mm Erlikons were put in their place.

"Jamaica" in 1943 received eight twin and four single "Oerlikons".

The Bermuda, the last of the ships of the type built, was commissioned with ten 20mm Oerlikons. In September 1943, six more such installations were installed on the cruiser. In the spring of 1944, aviation equipment and twelve single 20-mm assault rifles were replaced with 8 paired 20-mm installations. During a major overhaul in 1944-45, the cruiser lost its third turret and instead received three quadruple and four single Bofors 40mm installations.

In total, four ships parted with the third tower: Bermuda, Jamaica, Mauritius and Kenya.

Combat application

"Fiji".


The first to enter service, the first to leave. On August 1, 1940, he received a torpedo from a German submarine and stood up for repairs for a long time.
In the future, the cruiser took part in the search for German raiders in the Atlantic, then was transferred to the Mediterranean Sea, where it entered the A1 formation, which covered the convoys from attacks by Italian ships.

On May 22, 1941, the ships of the formation (cruisers Fiji and Gloucester, 4 destroyers) came under a massive attack from German aviation. The destroyer "Greyhound" was sunk, then the "Fiji" received several hits. The cruiser was left without a move, and in the face of continued attacks by the Luftwaffe, "Fiji" was actually abandoned by other ships. The Gloucester was also sunk, and the crews picked up the destroyers that remained afloat.

"Kenya"


He served in the Atlantic, patrolled and escorted convoys. When the Admiral Hipper smashed the WS5A convoy, he was gathering the convoy and assisting the damaged ships.
Together with the cruiser Aurora, he took part in the pursuit of the Bismarck. On June 3, the cruisers stumbled upon the German tanker Belchen (6367 brt), which was fueling the U-93 submarine. The cruiser's artillery fire and torpedoes sank the tanker.

On October 1, 1940, "Kenya" together with the cruiser "Sheffield" intercepted German supply ships in the Atlantic. It was discovered by a seaplane from "Kenya", the transport "Kota Penang" was intercepted and sunk.

Kenya took part in escorting Arctic convoys. PQ-3 and QP-4, PQ-12 and QP-8, PQ-15 and QP-11. Delivered 10 tons of gold bullion from the USSR to Britain to pay for supplies.

The second half of the war, "Kenya" spent in the Pacific Ocean, participating in many operations of the British fleet and allies, the list is quite long, so Kenya's career is worthy of separate consideration.

"Nigeria"


The beginning of military service took place in the Atlantic, where, together with various ships ("Repals", "Hood", "Nelson"), the cruiser was looking for German raiders.

In 1941 he was transferred to the North, where he participated in the sinking of the German meteorological ship "Lauenburg". Participant of raids on Spitsbergen and Bear. In September 1941, together with the cruiser Aurora, he sank the German ship Bremse. Member of convoys PQ-8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15,17 and return convoys QP-7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.

Then in 1943 he was transferred to the Mediterranean Sea in the region of Malta, where he received a torpedo hit from an Italian submarine.

The repair continued until 1944, after which the cruiser went east, where until the end of the war she took part in various Allied operations.

"Mauritius"


From 1941 to 1944 he served first in the Eastern Fleet, then was transferred to the Mediterranean. He took part in escorting convoys, intercepting enemy convoys, and covering landings. He ended the war in the Pacific Ocean.

Trinidad


Received baptism of fire as part of the PQ-8 convoy and the return QP-6.

On March 23, 1942, the cruiser, together with the destroyers Eclipse and Fury, sailed as an escort for the PQ-13 convoy. On March 29, a battle took place with the German destroyers Z-24, Z-25 and Z-26, which intercepted the convoy and sank the transport "Bateau". In battle, "Trinidad" sank the destroyer Z-26.

During the battle, the cruiser was damaged: a faulty torpedo, by a fateful coincidence, released by the cruiser, described the circulation and hit the left side in the boiler room area. A fire broke out and the cruiser lost speed. But the minesweeper "Harrier", the destroyers "Oribi" and "Fury" took the cruiser in tow and brought it to Murmansk, where Soviet specialists took over the repair of the "Trinidad".

On May 13, the cruiser departed from Murmansk, accompanied by the destroyers Foresight, Forester, Matchless and Somali. The next day, a detachment of ships was subjected to massive attacks by German aircraft. "Trinidad" received 4 bombs in the bow, which not only destroyed the entire result of the repair, but also caused new fires. A day later, on May 15, it became clear that the crew was losing the battle for the ship. It was decided to leave the cruiser. The escort destroyers took over the crew, and they planted three torpedoes on board the Trinidad.

In general, the practice of the British in the North showed that they quite calmly left the ships. Both the Edinburgh and Trinidad were destroyed by the British long before the cruisers had exhausted their survivability.

"Gambia"


The service began in the Indian Ocean, the cruiser participated in the landing in Madagascar, then there was service in the Pacific Ocean. He covered landing operations on the islands, was transferred to New Zealand and became part of the New Zealand Navy. Represented New Zealand at the Japanese Navy surrender ceremony.

"Jamaica"


He began his military service in the north, covering the landing on Spitsbergen. Then he was transferred to the Mediterranean, where he took part in the landing operation in Oran. Took part in repelling attacks by destroyers of the French Vichy government, which were trying to counter the operation. One Vichy destroyer ("Epervier") was disabled.

Then the cruiser was again transferred to the north, where she took part in the New Year's battle on December 31, 1942, when 2 light cruisers, 6 destroyers and a British minesweeper converged with 2 German heavy cruisers and 6 destroyers.

"Jamaica" was marked by hits on "Admiral Hipper" and was a co-author of the sinking of the destroyer "Z-16" "Friedrich Eckholdt".

A year later, on December 26, 1944, "Jamaica" was among the ships that drowned the "Scharnhorst".

The cruiser met the end of the war in the Pacific Ocean.

"Bermuda"


He began his combat activities by covering the landing of allied forces in North Africa, then he was transferred to the north and covered the northern convoys. Participated in the escort of 8 northern convoys.

Project Evaluation

Fiji turned out to be the most balanced light cruisers in the world. Lacking armor, like the French ships of the "La Galissoniere" type or the speed of the Italian "Raimondo Montecuccoli", in fact, the "Fiji" have become very serious ships in terms of weapons and seaworthiness.

The long service life of the ships only confirms this. "Newfoundland" and "Ceylon" served in the Peruvian Navy until 1972. "Nigeria" served in the Indian Navy until 1985, having easily survived THREE (!!!) collisions with other ships.

Strange as it may seem, but the cruisers, which were built in conditions of restrictions and economy (as opposed to the more luxurious in all respects, but also more expensive "Belfast"), turned out to be very strong and combat-ready ships.

We can say that the British designers did an excellent job of creating a versatile light cruiser.

Perhaps the only drawback of the Fiji-class cruisers was the very dense layout of everything. When the time came to strengthen the air defense, for the sake of this it was necessary to dismantle either one of the towers or aviation equipment. And as practice has shown, it is the additional "Eyes" in the form of a scout that is very necessary for such a ship.

Fiji is considered by many analysts to be the best light cruiser of the Second World War, and, I must say, not without reason. No outstanding qualities, but versatility and balance made this type of ships just that.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Combat ships. Cruisers. Good result of a strange experiment
Combat ships. Such strange three musketeers and Chevalier Xu
Combat ships. Cruisers. Paradox-style cardboard compromise
Combat ships. Cruisers. Shot damn thing that didn't come out lumpy
Combat ships. Cruisers. A family of perfect pirates
110 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 16 December 2020 18: 27
    +10
    Fiji is considered by many analysts to be the best light cruiser of the Second World War, and, I must say, not without reason.

    I would like to hear the names of analysts and the titles of their work ...
    But this will not happen.

    Otherwise, everything is as usual. :)
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 16 December 2020 20: 49
      +6
      One Topvarov analyst is enough. And this is not Skomorokhov.)

      But in general, it would be necessary to evaluate the cruisers. I can hardly do it myself.
      The British themselves considered them unarmored. But in retrospect it turned out that this did not play any role at all.

      about habitability, since the author of the article touched on it.
      Brown, in his endlessly informative book From Nelson to Wangard, writes that the colonies were a step forward in terms of comfort - a laundry room, a pantry with a dishwashing machine, upholstered chairs, lockers, separate taps for hot and cold water in the washrooms.
      But in general, the habitability of English ships is a special topic. 1923-1924 Hood, Ripals and five cruisers go on tour. among other things, their tasks included assessing the living conditions in the tropics on board the ship. The Commission on Ventilation to develop standards was convened already in the 38th. Naturally we did not have time for anything. The Kings, according to Kofman, did not have air conditioning, although they had to operate in any latitude. Even Bismarck had three air-conditioned rooms.

      In general, the ships are at least not bad, but the Japanese were the ultimate enemy, they were never tested.
      Apparently, the British themselves considered the "towns" more successful because the "Improved Belfast" Project was, but the "Improved Fiji" was not
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 16 December 2020 21: 18
        +6
        Quote: Engineer
        Apparently, the British themselves considered the "towns" more successful because the "Improved Belfast" Project was, but the "Improved Fiji" was not

        Probably came to the same conclusion as the Americans: ships are fighting with a displacement ... :)
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 16 December 2020 21: 28
          +3
          I partly agree.
          And then immediately the question is, what is the "light" overgrown cruiser better than the good old heavy. Well, the old debate is why 10 + kt with 6 inches is better than 10 + kt with 8 inches. And is it better?
          It feels like proven heavy weights are better for the first half of the war, and for the second half, new cruisers are generally a waste of resources. Unless of course you are an American
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 16 December 2020 21: 37
            +2
            Quote: Engineer
            better than the good old hard.

            It seems to me that the issue here is the "ability" to modernize old CMT.
            1. unknown
              unknown 17 December 2020 20: 54
              +1
              I have already noted in the comments to earlier articles that, for example, the French made very strange heavy cruisers. The Tourville-class cruisers were a very good upgrade platform. Armor 459 tons, displacement 454 tons.
              The Italians of the "Trento" type, with an armor mass of 888 tons, had a 70 mm belt covered with a deck up to 50 mm thick. And the French supplied the Suffren with a 50mm thick belt, but forgot to cover it with an armored deck. And this despite the fact that due to the transition from a four-shaft KTU to a three-shaft one, an economy of 419 tons was obtained. If the French had used all their reserves for booking, they could have brought the mass of the Suffren's armor to 1332 tons.
              The mass of the "colonies" armor is less. Foch and Duplet are even funnier. The mass of the armor is 1374 tons (displacement reserve 121 tons) and 1553 tons (displacement reserve 112 tons). The mass of La Galissoniera's armor is 1460 tons. Southampton - 1431 tons. The French ineptly used the available opportunities to enhance the reservation.
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 17 December 2020 21: 13
                0
                Quote: ignoto
                I already noted in the comments

                As I said earlier, each country built YOUR OWN heavy cruiser, based on Of their needs ...
                It is for this reason that the boats are all different and strange in their own way.
                Well, the fact that "Musyu know a lot about perversions" has long been known.
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 16 December 2020 22: 12
            +2
            Quote: Engineer
            Unless of course you are an American

            )))
            Quote: Engineer
            than the "light" overgrown cruiser is better than the good old heavy. Well, the old debate is why 10 + kt with 6 inches is better than 10 + kt with 8 inches.

            Well, unless you think about "balance". 10K 6 "KRL can be protected from its caliber, 8" needs 15K +. On the other hand, it was believed that when dealing with EVs, leaders and scouts, 6 "with high fire performance is optimal, and not 8". So this decision had its own truth.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 16 December 2020 22: 24
              +1
              This is a very perverse understanding of balance.
              On the other hand, it was believed that when dealing with EVs, leaders and scouts, 6 "with high fire performance is optimal, and not 8"

              It's a well-known point, but Brown speaks of the British 5-inch with XNUMX RPM as analog (in a good way).
              The Japanese believed that 2 eight-inches are definitely better than 3 six-inches and even very good, almost record 155-mm
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 16 December 2020 22: 40
                -1
                Quote: Engineer
                This is a very perverse understanding of balance.

                That the ship must be protected from its own guns?
                Quote: Engineer
                British eight-inch with a rate of fire of 5 rounds per minute as an analogue

                The original Naval Staff requirement for these weapons was 12 rounds per minute, an impossibly high figure for the time. The requirement was ultimately reduced to six rounds per minute. However, "British Cruisers of World War Two" states that this rate was never reached during wartime service and that the maximum sustained ROF in action was actually 3 to 4 rounds per minute. During trials, HMS Kent did achieve a ROF of 5 rounds per minute for a brief time.

                Quote: Engineer
                The Japanese believed that 2 eight-inches are definitely better than 3 six-inches and even very good, almost record 155-mm

                Are you talking about Mogami? There, there is an opinion, there was no talk about the best at all, the Yapas wanted exactly the MRT.
                By your logic, Exeter should have become the best CD of moderate VI. There are doubts about this. The eight-inch drivers certainly have their own logic, but there are also arguments against it. A question of balance, as usual.

                Or resources: if it is possible to build first 27 + 2 Clevelands - Fargo, and then write them off all at once and drive 20 Balts-Oregon-Des Moines, then why not)))
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 16 December 2020 23: 07
                  +1
                  That the ship must be protected from its own guns?

                  Yes.
                  Why is this lengthy excerpt? Few people reached the tabular rate of fire, and even more so over a long period of time
                  In addition to Kent, Norfolk fired 5 rounds per minute in 1945 with the Mark II. This is what is known for sure. At the same time, the design reserves were not exhausted, the eight-inch models were not further developed and no major upgrades were carried out.
                  Are you talking about Mogami? There, there is an opinion, there was no talk about the best at all, the Yapas wanted exactly the MRT.

                  Yapi wanted 8-inches. Even at the cost of overload and other problems. That is how they put them higher. Even above 155 times the very jagged XNUMXmm
                  By your logic, Exeter should have become the best CD of moderate VI.

                  Moderate displacement for me is just 10 thousand. All that is significantly more overpriced. Anything less is obviously worse. Including by the criterion cost-efficiency. Something like Takao with 4 towers without squeezing the limiting parameters.
                  Purely by chance, the restrictions set the limit close to the golden ratio. Any attempt to significantly exceed and balance it resulted in halves of battleships for the price. Hipper and Brooklyn will confirm. When trying to make it easier, savings were obtained on buttons with a noticeable drop in efficiency.
                  I would look at the county ver 2 in the technologies of the mid-30s with some excess of 10 thousand tons of the standard (11-11.5) Or stupidly Town with 4x2 8-inches.
                  Alas, by rushing to rivet the heavy cruisers, the British sooner rather exhausted the contractual limit.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 16 December 2020 23: 27
                    -1
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Why is this lengthy excerpt?

                    Besides, if you have, say, 6, even 8 barrels, then the total rate of fire will be quite moderate. Moreover, in relation to six-inch gatlings - at times.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    At the same time, the design reserves were not exhausted, the eight-inch models did not develop further

                    No, if you make an ideal ship, then I would put three or even two double 8 "/ 55 RF Mark 16, that's enough. But it seems we are not discussing an alternative yet, but real, so I would not go into depth about the development of the design.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Yapi wanted 8-inches. Even at the cost of overload and other problems. That is how they put them higher.

                    Do you definitely not understand that KRL and KRT have different tasks? First of all, a different alleged enemy?
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Or stupidly Town with 4x2 8-inches.

                    You come to Algeria approximately. Yes, this is a very good ship. But if I were the boss (I continue the alternative about Lavrenty Palych Swanson), I would build Algeria 3x3x6 ", (instead of cleave, the difference in weight in air defense and fire control system), and as an SRT real Balts are 15 + K, in this ship are bad only the construction time. Or, to show off, I left Algeria 2 towers 8 ", and on everything else I put the battleship air defense, again, with the appropriate control system.

                    PS Yes, the battleship MSA is worthless, and the further the more expensive.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 16 December 2020 23: 59
                      +3
                      You are a debater.
                      Specifically, the British did not have "six-inch gatlings" There were 5-6 rounds per minute for the built-in installations on the barrel versus 3-4 and up to 5 per barrel for the paired eight-inch machines. The fact that the British abandoned the development of 8-inches in the 30s is not an alternative, but a fact. The six-inch is noticeably younger. And at the same time, they are very gray in terms of characteristics. That's all. And none at times. Twice the maximum. Taking into account the one and a half number. With a huge superiority in power, 8 "And exactly at long distances.

                      Do you definitely not understand that KRL and KRT have different tasks? First of all, a different alleged enemy?

                      And a formalist)
                      You see, there is a simple fact. Making a cruiser of 10-12 thousand tons of standard displacement, you will get a ship of actually the same class, regardless of whether it is 6 or 8 inches. And the fact that, according to the agreements, these are formally different classes should not bother anyone.
                      Towns and counties, for example, are ships of the same class. It's just that the counties were originally designed to protect communications, but during the war it became necessary to use them for the squadron service - the town's tool is too small. And squadron towns were also used to guard communications. And the price is almost the same. At the same time, if the county was younger, then the squadron service would be involved more widely.
                      The tasks of the ships turned out to be the same. And the enemy.

                      But if I were the boss

                      Not radical enough for an alternative. Turbine Spee of 11-12 thousand tons in the technology of the 30s looks like a big dad for cruisers, doesn't it?
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 17 December 2020 00: 35
                        -2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Specifically, the British did not have "six-inch gatlings"

                        4х3 town, 4х4 tried to bet on Edinburgh.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        There were 5-6 rounds per minute for built-in installations per barrel versus 3-4, and up to 5 per barrel for paired eight-inches.

                        That is, 2+ times.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        With a huge superiority in power, 8 "And exactly at long distances.

                        I know the 8 "fan position. You are partly right.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        It's just that the counties were originally designed to protect communications, but during the war it became necessary to use them for the squadron service - the town's tool is too small. And squadron towns were also used to guard communications.

                        So who is the formalist here? The counties had to fight with the CR raiders, and in the company with the Towns, there was someone to solve issues with the enemy CR.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Turbine Spee of 11-12 thousand tons in the technology of the 30s looks like a big dad for cruisers, doesn't it?

                        Why turbine? We are building diesel-electric ships at once, commercial transatlantic ones were already under construction in the 30s. And in fact 28cm certainly inspires, but in the real world 8 "for the eyes and ears, especially with superhevy.
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 17 December 2020 00: 47
                        +1
                        4х3 town, 4х4 tried to bet on Edinburgh.
                        These are not gatlings. This is crap. Amers had normal six-inches
                        So who is the formalist here?

                        I'm not sure
                        The counties had to fight with the CR raiders, and in the company with the Towns, there was someone to solve issues with the enemy CR.

                        Andryukha believed that the towns against pasta in the squadron confrontation were unconvincing. Begged and got the county
                        What actually happened is more important than what was planned.
                        From the fact that the Mogami was replaced by the GC, neither the type, nor the tasks, nor the goals changed.
                        Why turbine?

                        I decided to give a displacement reserve to one air defense fan
                      3. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 17 December 2020 01: 11
                        -2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Amers had normal six-inches

                        )))
                        The amers did not have anything normal. Show off one.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I'm not sure

                        Yeah.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I decided to give a displacement reserve to one air defense fan

                        Not necessary. Until the 36th year, nothing visionary can be laid, and after September 39th you can no longer restrain yourself by VI. In this situation, the ship steers from any angle until the appearance of the GTU.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Andryukha believed that the towns against pasta in the squadron confrontation were unconvincing.

                        Again.
                        When building a 10K cruiser, you have about 1000 tons for guns. This is 4x2 + 6x2x4 "but without the defense of Algeria at all, or 4x3x6" + 6x2x5 "in the full-fledged towers of Cleveland or 3x3x8" + 4x1x5 "pins + 4x1x5" Wichita bushings. You have to choose. If you choose 8 ", then your armor will not fit on the same 8". KRL, yes, you can punish. To punish cruelly. But if you have a potential enemy - destroyers and auxiliary RC, why should you punish the RCL? Just 8K KRL with 3x3x6 ", with normal armor for land mines and 6", without unnecessary fanaticism - the very topic. At 10 + K KRL, like Brooklyn - Cleveland - yes, there is something to think about.

                        And if you have a potential enemy - CMT and you can afford - then put on normal armor, go to 15-20K and do not invent anything clever, only make it worse.

                        Separately, Andryushka. In fact, he was just chasing the correct 15K KRT across the Mediterranean, he had candidates for heroically perishing unnecessarily, from County at least some theoretical benefit.
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 17 December 2020 11: 21
                        +1
                        go to 15-20K and do not invent anything clever, only make it worse.

                        It will be worse
                        Brooklyn -20-25 million, Houston-40 million, Sodak -80 million (or it was yours, not the point)
                        Between 10-12 tons of standard and LC niche according to the criterion of cost-efficiency no
                        If you kids are not Americans, don't go for a walk in 15 thousand standard

                        Thesis 2
                        Do not chase armor, and even more so do not think normally to defend against 8 inches.
                        Too many accidents such as a rolling projectile under Hipperu's belt.
                        You don't need cardboard either. Do as yapi and norms.

                        № 3

                        You don't need a tightly packed la Galissonniere to kill destroyers. Stupidly redundant.
                        The old, armless and twice as cheap Duge-Truen will do. Or the conservative Linder.
                        Forgot number 4
                        Besides destroyers, there are battleships.
                        The eight-inch can pretty much ruin the mood of the LC. No six-inch.

                        Where is the optimum for KRL, I will not undertake to assert. Perhaps in the region of 8 kt. But it should not be the ultimate French, but something cheaper.
                        PS
                        The amers did not have anything normal. Show off one.

                        Towne had better stay away from Brooklyn. As well as practically all British ships from the Amers' counterparts. Except maybe Tribal and J
                      5. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 17 December 2020 13: 02
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Brooklyn -20-25 million, Houston-40 million, Sodak -80 million (or it was yours, not the point)

                        Some left figures. Carolina - 52, Brooklyn - 15, Huston CA - 13, Houston CL - 31 (but US military prices are a separate topic).
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Between 10-12 tons of standard and LC niche according to the criterion of cost-efficiency no

                        A balanced 30-node 8 "ship is located there.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Do not chase armor, and even more so do not think normally to defend against 8 inches.

                        And you are a fatalist. No, it is possible and necessary to turn the roulette of volleys into a battle with the accumulation of damage. Plus a normal PTZ, adequate air defense and fire control system, and even 8x8 "in 10K do not climb well, not at all, even with armor from KRL.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Do as yapi and norms.

                        Takao didn't fit in 10K.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The old, armless and twice as cheap Duge-Truen will do. Or the conservative Linder.

                        Linder is an option, but for the Atlantic. For TO, if the option of a squadron service is needed, then air defense is needed at least at the level of a destroyer. That is, Geering. And it can't be cheap.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Besides destroyers, there are battleships.
                        The eight-inch can pretty much ruin the mood of the LC.

                        In general, we categorically do not consider the LC as an enemy of the MRT... This is a straight path to the bottom.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Towne had better stay away from Brooklyn.

                        As I said, everyone has their own reasons. The British were spoiled by the blood of the auxiliary cruisers, but the normal cruisers were not particularly worried. The Germans had just the English KRLs as their enemy, your economy KRT would suit them. If you are hunting Japanese MCTs, then no economists, do it right.

                        Returning to the alternative to Lawrence Palych Swanson.
                        1. We find and shoot all the pests that were related to KRL types "Brooklyn" and "Cleveland". Cancel Brooklyn and the last two New Orleans, Wichita of course.
                        2. We design a small battleship under a contract in the 36th year. 17,5K, 3x2 towers from Florida / Wisconsin / New York / Nevada, armor from 8 ".
                        3. We put all undershot pests in a sharashka to design towers from Des Moines in 2 and 3 gun versions. 3-gun under the shoulder strap and weight 2x12, 2-gun under the shoulder strap and weight 3x8 old CMT Readiness - 39th year.
                        4. Since the small LC is 2 times less than the Carolyn / Dakotas, we immediately lay 12 small LC in 37-38. At the same time, we try to make the slipway period minimal, but we are not in a hurry with the completion.
                        5. All this time in secret basements we are designing Iowa with towers from the Dakota of the 20th year.
                        6. In the 38th year, we increase the tonnage of LC not by 20%, but by 30%, VI up to 50K.
                        7.From October 38, we lay down Iowa every 3 months.
                        8. Immediately begin to design the big modernization of Wisconsins and New York - cars, superstructure, extremities.
                        9. In September 39, we rename small LCs to KRT. We put towers from Des Moines.
                        10. During the 39th year, we begin to take away all armored MCTs for modernization, starting with New Orleans. Everywhere we change the whole main battery to 2x2x8 ", it won't fit anymore. We put on this work a year, in batches of 5 (more precisely, 5, 6 and 4). Replacement of superstructures, OMS, air defense. No, pin 5/25 do not fit.
                        11. At the beginning of the 40th, we put on the modernization of Wisconsin and New York. 4x2x12 and 4x2x14, maximum speed, replacement of superstructures.

                        Bottom line: - for the 42nd year, we have 12 full-fledged CRTs, 4 LCRs, 9-11 small CRTs, which will go for replacing CRTs, and on the approach of Iowa, we laid them according to the Dakota schedule, in fact, and another 4-5 under-CRTs Order of Lenin, Hero of Labor, bust of the hero in the homeland.

                        But in this alternative, we are tinkering with under-CRT, since they are already there. It shouldn't have been built from scratch. Plus, in this alternative, guns from Des Moines are critically important, if they are not there, then at least 10 old CMTs to New Orleans should be converted into KRL without options, you need free weight, a lot of weight.
                      6. Engineer
                        Engineer 17 December 2020 14: 02
                        +1
                        Some left figures. Carolina - 52, Brooklyn - 15, Houston CA - 13, Houston CL - 31

                        I should have had Baltimore, not Houston. My mistake.
                        Figures for cruisers from the wiki. It is obvious to me that one 35th battleship is better than 2-3 Baltimors.
                        A balanced 30-node 8 "ship is located there.

                        Again. There are overpricing like Hipper and Baltimore, which are contraindicated for everyone except amers. And for the Americans themselves, it is simply redundant.
                        Takao didn't fit in 10K.

                        .I wrote 10-12 actually. Takao and Algeria are there. In the technologies of the second half of the 30s, they will be even better.
                        Plus a normal PTZ, adequate air defense and fire control system, and even 8x8 "in 10K do not climb well, not at all, even with armor from KRL.

                        Algeria burst into tears.
                        And you are a fatalist. No, it is possible and necessary to turn the roulette of volleys into a battle with the accumulation of damage.

                        Only Baltimore could take a long-term blow. Although I doubt it. Hipper couldn't.

                        For TO, if the option of a squadron service is needed, then air defense is needed at least at the level of a destroyer. That is, Geering. And it can't be cheap.

                        If for maintenance, then the quality of the air defense of cruisers is almost irrelevant. Aviation is still stronger.

                        In general, we categorically do not consider LK as an enemy of MRT. This is a straight path to the bottom.

                        You may not consider. And so Norfolk sends greetings to Bismarck and Scharnhorst, and San Francisco Hiya
                        This is war, not an alternative

                        Returning to the alternative to Lawrence Palych Swanson.

                        Oh, everything (s) laughing
                      7. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 17 December 2020 14: 34
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        that one 35th battleship is better than 2-3 Baltimors.

                        Better for what purpose? You step on the slippery slope of the economy battleships which ends with you you know which ship. Building Iowa against Takao is not an option, building Alaska against KRT is also some kind of crap.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Algeria burst into tears.

                        Yeah. I already wrote this. Its air defense weighs 100 tons, the Balta / Kliva air defense is 3 times heavier. Only if you shoot one main battery tower and then barely. And we also put anti-aircraft directors and Bofors, too, not fluff.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Takao and Algeria are there. In the technologies of the second half of the 30s, they will be even better.

                        Here is Takao minus one tower is the minimum option for an MRT.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Hipper couldn't.

                        Pump luck.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        the quality of the air defense of cruisers is almost irrelevant. Aviation is still stronger.

                        Again this fatalism of yours. Stronger, but she has little time for cruisers.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        San Francisco Jieu

                        This is a fight between CA-38 and Hiei, as a positive example. Want to die bravura to fight with LK - place torpedoes and do not suffer.
                      8. Engineer
                        Engineer 17 December 2020 15: 24
                        +1
                        Better for what purpose?

                        Anyone. Atlantic, Mediterranean Sea, Guadalcanal, Samar.
                        You step on the slippery slope of the economy battleships which ends with you know which ship

                        This is systemic for the Dolbychan.
                        But in the concept of economy battleships, they and partly Itals were on the right track, although they screwed everything up with performance.
                        And when they started to improve creatively, then he came out as a super-super-best.
                        Yeah. I already wrote this. Its air defense weighs 100 tons, the Balta / Kliva air defense is 3 times heavier. Only if you shoot one main battery tower and then barely. And we also put anti-aircraft directors and Bofors, too, not fluff.

                        Quite normal for a pre-war ship. We are building for 10-11 thousand tons, and loading it with 1000. You don't need to shoot anything. Ships, like people, get fat with age. At the same time, everything is smooth and evolutionary with us without pre-war fever.
                        Here is Takao minus one tower is the minimum option for an MRT.

                        This is flea catching, Takao is very close to what can be called a reference. Just in a slightly different concept
                        Takao and Agano are close to the optimal cruisers for me. As well as Algeria-Linder.
                        Again this fatalism of yours. Stronger, but she has little time for cruisers.

                        Don't bother too much on air defense cruisers. Build aircraft carriers, any and any Akizuki. Otherwise, you will build them long and expensive. Again, if you are not American.
                        The German destroyers, by the way, have effective air defense for the West. It won't help against the Americans, it usually did against the Angles. Against the Yaps of the second half of the war, it should also work, but only up to the waves of kamikaze. Do as on narvik cheap and cheerful

                        This is a fight between CA-38 and Hiei, as a positive example.

                        No objection to Norfolk? laughing
                        And yes, the example is positive from a tactical point of view.
                      9. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 17 December 2020 17: 26
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Atlantic, Mediterranean Sea, Guadalcanal, Samar.

                        Simultaneously? How many battleships do you propose to build?

                        The position is that if the opponents have 18 MCTs, and you have time and money, then you should not let Pensacola and Northampton on them, but come up with some more adequate option. And this option is not Iowa, obviously. There could be Dunkirk, but why?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        economy battleships they are partly Itals

                        )))
                        So I am eager to saw through my grandfathers. Or do you have a Littorio economy?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        We are building for 10-11 thousand tons, and loading it with 1000. You don't need to shoot anything.

                        I say, four-tower Takao. By the way, the armor of Algeria is from 6 ". So your thought revolves around the Washington under-armored MRT. No, I don't think that playing roulette of volleys is the right decision, it is forced - yes, to do it of your own free will - no.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Takao and Agano are close to the optimal cruisers for me. As well as Algeria-Linder.

                        Takako and Agano would still be fine, but Algeria and Linder are a little bit not related)))
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Again, if you are not American.

                        If you are not at war with the Japanese, more precisely. Although the limes were also very concerned about this in their time, at least in the Mediterranean.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        No objection to Norfolk?

                        Did he do something?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And yes, the example is positive from a tactical point of view.

                        Under the tribunal would be for such positive examples. This place should have been mines and conventional torpedo boats.
                      10. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 12: 46
                        0
                        Simultaneously? How many battleships do you propose to build?

                        6 angles, 6 amers
                        Both sides almost completed the task, albeit crookedly. They mowed each one in their own way, naturally.
                        Economy battleships of war are kings. Of course, the British did everything to spoil the project, but the fact remains.
                        Brown writes that the headline's profitability was 30 percent. That is, it could have been even cheaper if English engineers had condescended to help from professional estimates from the specialized industry.
                        Littorio is very interesting in terms of cost. Somehow he brought everything to a single currency and got a figure comparable to the king. The fact that comparatively backward Italy has finished building as many as three ships also speaks in favor of its manufacturability. In that
                        on the other hand, it is underestimated and deserves at least further analysis.

                        The position is that if the opponents have 18 MCTs, and you have time and money, then you should not let Pensacola and Northampton on them, but come up with some more adequate option.


                        The problem is not in the 18 Japanese MRTs. Yes, even though there are 28

                        Problem # 1 This is kido butai. There are no analogues. The British did not create anything like this in the entire war.
                        This problem, in principle, cannot be solved, because in order to react to a threat, it must be recognized. With this at all seams

                        Problem #2

                        The old Japanese battleships are the most modernized in the world. Plus two brothers.
                        Dolbychane fly by immediately.

                        The Japanese fleet is not a solvable task for BI.

                        Americans don't need to change anything at all, if only cosmetic changes. They are better cut production of cruisers and battleships with a date of entry into service after 1942 to give more army and air force.
                        I will repeat it for the tenth time. the Americans dragged in on pre-war baggage. In a year. This simple fact somehow did not receive due recognition and comprehension. All this huge machine that created the TF and the floating rear and destroyers is undoubtedly needed for 1944-45. But not all of these Iowas and Balts and half of the Cleves too. It is clear that this is an afterthought. But alternatives to these ships or shoving them in an earlier period is also not necessary. At all.

                        By the way, the armor of Algeria from 6 "

                        Algeria and Linder are a little bit not relatives)))

                        Thanks, Cap. Did I indicate or imply the opposite somewhere?

                        Did he do something?

                        hehe. He demolished the central PUAO to Bismarck at the very beginning of the last battle. The Aryans probably did not expect such agility from Inselaffen.
                      11. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 13: 05
                        -2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The Aryans probably did not expect such agility from Inselaffen.

                        And out of 6 "wouldn't you be shot down? wassat
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Thanks, Cap

                        hi
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Problem # 1 This is kido butai.

                        This is not a problem, Kido Butai does not exist in the intellectual space either in 41 or even in 42. Accordingly, no one solves it.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Problem #2

                        The old Japanese battleships are the most modernized in the world.

                        Yes, the Japanese are great here. And what has the CD theme to do with it?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I will repeat it for the tenth time. the Americans dragged in on pre-war baggage. In a year. This simple fact somehow did not receive due recognition and understanding.

                        Are you talking about Guadalcanal? The Americans would have "dragged in" if the Japanese in the Philippines were drowning.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        All this huge machine that created the TF and the floating rear and destroyers is undoubtedly needed for 1944-45. But not all of these Iowas and Balts and half of the Cleves too. It is clear that this is an afterthought.

                        This is not an afterthought. This is the absence of normal strategic planning. + American implementation of the principle "everything for the front - everything for victory."
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Brown writes that the headline's profitability was 30 percent. That is, it could have been even cheaper if English engineers had condescended to help from professional estimates from the specialized industry.

                        You still enter the state plan)))
                        Quote: Engineer
                        In this
                        on the other hand, it is underestimated and deserves at least further analysis.

                        Yes, the Italian navy is even more undervalued than the French. He is very interesting, but hefty unlucky.
                      12. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 13: 19
                        +1
                        And out of 6 "wouldn't you be shot down?

                        1. Perhaps not. It is unlikely that someone will indicate the exact location, and the power of the six-inch is so-so. Couldn't have been stupid enough.
                        .
                        This is not a problem, Kido Butai does not exist in the intellectual space either in 41 or even in 42. Accordingly, no one solves it.

                        Unrecognized (latent) risks and threats are classified as problems in the modern concept of risk analysis and management. tongue
                        Yes, the Japanese are great here. And what has the CD theme to do with it?

                        You yourself started to play bullish. Appeared in the discussion of MCT up to 20 kt. Dunkirk and Iowa. Receive laughing
                        Are you talking about Guadalcanal? The Americans would have "dragged in" if the Japanese in the Philippines were drowning.

                        It was already. unconvincing. Guadalanal is beautiful and minimizes risks. In the Philippines, the cost of defeat is much higher.
                        This is not an afterthought. This is the absence of normal strategic planning. + American implementation of the principle "everything for the front - everything for victory."

                        Only the Japanese had normal strategic planning and only for six months. From which I conclude that for that level of development it was hardly possible in principle.
                        You still enter the state plan)))

                        You just don't know much about pricing in the English military shipbuilding. Prices were set by professional engineers on the principle of three P. The shipyards accepted almost any orders, especially after a long shipbuilding vacation. As a result, profitability ranged from 2 to 70 percent. Brown has that too. Read it.
                        Get Rid of Lymephilia in Three Steps

                        good
                        A cross-functional team or just a department with surveyors familiar with shipbuilding would make this process much more meaningful. And the kings are even cheaper. )
                      13. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 13: 30
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        A cross-functional team with surveyors familiar with shipbuilding would make this process much more meaningful.

                        I see everyone has their own little alternative with Lavrentiy Palych wassat
                        Quote: Engineer
                        From which I conclude that for that level of development it was hardly possible in principle.

                        Sorry, but in the case of the United States, there was a categorical protest against the very idea of ​​planning.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        In the Philippines, the cost of defeat is much higher.

                        Just for reference, let me remind you that the price of Philippines + Indonesia is 5 million people. True, there are not so many Americans among them, so they don't care.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        You yourself started to play bullish. Appeared in the discussion of MCT up to 20 kt. Dunkirk and Iowa. Receive

                        Well, that is, to save on my 17K cross-cruisers, you need to build 18 under-Alaska, do I understand you correctly?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Unrecognized (latent) risks and threats are classified as problems in the modern concept of risk analysis and management.

                        But since they are unrecognized, no one was going to solve them, starting with Nimitz.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Couldn't have been stupid enough.

                        I will fill mine wassat
                      14. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 14: 03
                        +1
                        I see everyone has their own little alternative with Lavrentiy Palych

                        You alternatives are all the same. laughing Think like a hit with unlimited administrative resources. And you just have to think like a sensible non-affiliated manager.
                        Sorry, but in the case of the United States, there was a categorical protest against the very idea of ​​planning.

                        Will not forgive. The United States met with the world's most powerful fleet. At the end of 1942, the United States already had the most powerful fleet. YEAR. TOTAL. ONE. Where is it even cooler?
                        It seems that the Lord himself is for America. laughing And you here undertake to optimize his fishing.
                        Just for reference, let me remind you that the price of the Philippines + Indonesia is 5 million people. True, there are not so many Americans among them, so they don't care.

                        Themselves answered.
                        And stop pretending to Indonesia amers.
                        Well, that is, to save on my 17K cross-cruisers, you need to build 18 under-Alaska, do I understand you correctly?

                        Lord, no. For whom am I throwing ideas for a moblinker, and a full-fledged one?
                        6-8-10 Washington DC. You can do the same. Of these, 6 are fully operational for Guadalcanal.
                        Alaska, Iowa, Baltimore remain unborn children.
                        And in general, I repeat, and everything turned out very well.
                        Cry, islanders, and envy.
                        But since they are unrecognized, no one was going to solve them, starting with Nimitz.

                        And it is not necessary. It resolved itself. laughing
                        So they decided. Nobody else could
                        I will fill mine

                        It will be a little (s)
                        It is necessary to invest all the proletarian hatred, but you have it canalized to other objects. The poor Germans are gone.
                      15. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 14: 30
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Think like a hit with unlimited administrative resources.

                        Yeah. Therefore, there is a queue of people coming to Stalin, there, on the spot, do not have time to bury, and to Roosevelt I'm alone wassat
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The United States met with the world's most powerful fleet. At the end of 1942, the United States already had the most powerful fleet. YEAR. TOTAL. ONE.

                        How to say. Until the 42nd they have a fleet of 3,6: 2 with the Japanese.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And stop pretending to Indonesia amers.

                        No. #AllLivesMatter
                        Quote: Engineer
                        For whom am I throwing ideas on a moblinker, and a full-fledged one?
                        6-8-10 Washington DC.

                        Moblinkor in '36? The Americans? I can do this for 17,5K battleships, I have Lavrenty Palych, but without him, how? Overdrinking the elderly is the only working option.

                        The combat-ready LCs to Guadalcanal are tedious - immediately after Vinson Act 38, grab Wisconsin, New York, Nevada, make contours, cars, add-ons, throw out the middle (Nevada - elevated) towers, Wisconsins can be sawn into 14 ", 3 towers extra from Nevad and New York, from 12 "towers, gash monitors. So we will win!
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Alaska, Iowa, Baltimore remain unborn children.

                        Will you fight with the Carolines, AB and Fletchers alone? And who did you forget to abort, Cleves and Atlanta?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Nobody else could

                        Yes, the American fleet of the 40s is unique and not realizable anywhere else. As well as the bet on massAB, by the way. It did NOT work for the Japanese, because in addition to AB it is needed mass naval aviation. This is also relatively little understood.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        It is necessary to invest all the proletarian hatred, but you have it canalized to other objects. The poor Germans are gone.

                        Yes. I am surprisingly calm about the Germans.
                      16. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 14: 49
                        +1
                        How to say. Until the 42nd they have a fleet of 3,6: 2 with the Japanese.

                        But qualitatively, the Yapi are the strongest. By the end of 42, the Americans had fixed that.
                        Well-known facts.
                        Moblinkor in '36?

                        Of these, 6 are fully combat-ready to Guadalcanal.

                        Accordingly, the order is 37 years old. Everything is like in real life.
                        So win!

                        We will win anyway. See real
                        No. #AllLivesMatter

                        Then at least be consistent. And name the main person responsible for Malaya and Burma. It may not be easy for you, I understand.
                        It did NOT work for the Japanese, because in addition to AV, massive naval aviation is needed

                        At the beginning of the war, they have it on a massive scale. For the scale of the database in 41-42 years was much more modest than a couple of years later. And at the beginning of the war, she just entered.
                        And in terms of quality, this aircraft also has "no analogues"
                        Will you fight with the Carolines, AB and Fletchers alone?

                        Half Cleaves, Brooklyn, Atlanteans Plus TKR what they have worked out before the war. Everything is like in real life). What really fought in real life)
                        Yes. I am surprisingly calm about the Germans.

                        It was not a punch, but a statement of fact. I, by the way, too.
                      17. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 15: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        But qualitatively, the Yapi are the strongest.

                        Only by massaging AB.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Everything is real.

                        What's like in real life? In real life, the Dakota is being designed for another 2 years to balance, after all, armor with 16 "main guns in 35K. For some reason.

                        By the way, I did an alternative about old people in the previous comment.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        We will win anyway. See real

                        In real life, the Americans lost to WWII, you forget my peculiarities. Mine and Patton.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And name the main person responsible for Malaya and Burma.

                        The British and personally Vinnie. It is not difficult for me and Bengal to recall, and good for the Soviet occupation of Iran.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And at the beginning of the war, she just entered.

                        A typical blitzkrieg weapon. One blitzkrieg.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Half Cleaves, Brooklyn, Atlanteans Plus TKR what they have worked out before the war. Everything is like in real life).

                        I have a real problem with Callaghan and other aesthetic claims.
                      18. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 15: 24
                        +1
                        Only by massaging AB.

                        The best naval (not just aircraft carrier) aviation, the best night battle, the best torpedoes, the best light forces. The best TKR, the best modern LC.
                        Shooting from good to excellent, torpedo shooting is excellent, damage control is good. The landing is good. The evacuation is excellent.
                        The qualitative superiority of the Yaps is obvious.

                        What's like in real life? In real life, the Dakota is being designed for another 2 years to balance, after all, armor with 16 "main guns in 35K. For some reason.

                        Don't design a Dakota. Yours immediately. I wrote 6-8-10 washington... quickly and angrily. And without congenital childhood disease of the Dakota, which was identified and eliminated a year after entry into service. Best the enemy of the good. The good thing is that it is at hand when needed and works.
                        By the way, I did an alternative about old people in the previous comment.

                        They saddled the horse). Saber? Cocked hat?
                        In my real life, WWII Americans lost

                        On the other front. Which was a priority in the proportion of 70-30. THAT does not solve anything in this regard.
                        The British and personally Vinnie. It is not difficult for me and Bengal to recall, and good for the Soviet occupation of Iran.


                        They say on New Year's Eve ... (c)

                        A typical blitzkrieg weapon. One blitzkrieg.

                        An example of the correct assessment of their capabilities. And the aviation is massive)
                        I have a real problem with Callaghan and other aesthetic claims.


                        Perfectionism is an objective flaw. And the aesthetes were tightly attached by J. Hasek. ) Better without these claims)
                      19. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 15: 30
                        -2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The qualitative superiority of the Yaps is obvious.

                        Uh-huh.
                        But almost everything that you have listed is the work of people. Which the Japanese did, and some did not.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And without congenital childhood disease of the Dakota, which was identified and eliminated a year after entry into service.

                        Actually there and Caroline had vibration problems.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The good thing is that it is at hand when needed and works.

                        How will you explain to the Congress that you are building a 16 "LKR without speed in that amount? Without Lavrenty Palych?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        THAT does not solve anything in this regard.

                        THAT diverts resources.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        They say on New Year's Eve

                        What's New Year's Eve? Samsonov and I are fans of Comrade. Stalin, who outplayed everyone, and not Vinnie even once.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And the aviation is massive)

                        Are you talking about kamikaze?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Perfectionism is an objective flaw.

                        And hack-work, rush jobs and assault - no?
                      20. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 15: 49
                        +1
                        Actually there and Karolina had vibration problems

                        There is time for correction
                        How will you explain to the Congress that you are building a 16 "LCR without speed in that amount?

                        Exactly, I'm not Mr. Swanson, who saves democracy by shooting and arranges sharaga for degenerate pest engineers. For me, Congress is mandatory)
                        Are you talking about kamikaze?

                        About air corps Mihoro, Genzan, Tainan, etc. And their capabilities for a massive strike.

                        What's New Year's Eve? Samsonov and I are fans of Comrade. Stalin, who outplayed everyone, and not Vinnie even once.

                        You see, hanging everything on the leaders is not a good idea. Therefore, not Vinnie, but the British. This is more accurate and more honest.

                        And hack-work, rush jobs and assault - no?

                        it was always and everywhere. And will be.
                        The Americans achieved victory in maintenance and an excellent loss ratio.
                      21. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 15: 59
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Swanson, who saves democracy by shooting and sharaghi

                        Shooting and sharaghi will certainly not harm the Americans. But you're right, this piece is the weakest part of the alternative. So I'll have to give up the Carolyn and Dakotas, design Iowa right away and build 8 of them from the 38th year starting. We'll have to somehow without Des Moines in the 30s, but it's hard to understand how. Apparently, to lay 4 pieces at the expense of the second Vinson, but already in the 39th year, when it became possible. And Saipans at the same time.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        For me, Congress is mandatory)

                        8 Washington DCs won't get through. 8 Iowa is still possible.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And their capabilities for a massive strike.

                        Are you talking about carrier-based aircraft or coastal aircraft?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Therefore, not Vinnie, but the British.

                        There, the first problem was unity of command, so after all, Vinnie, there is no one else.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        it was always and everywhere. And will be.

                        It was and will be, but everywhere it is different.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        excellent loss ratio.

                        It's on land, no mixing.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Americans achieved victory

                        Arguments about the banner over the Reichstag never suited me.
                      22. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 16: 14
                        +1
                        Are you talking about carrier-based aircraft or coastal aircraft?

                        What did I specify the corps for? Coastal, of course. Deck and since Caesar's wife.
                        It's on land, no mixing.

                        What, what? Is it different at sea and in the air?
                        There, the first problem was unity of command, so after all, Vinnie, there is no one else.

                        This is yes. Winnie surrendered Singapore and Hong Kong, Winnie fled Burma by abandoning his troops, Winnie failed to return there in 43. Vinny slept through the beginning of the Imphal operation. Vini defended Ceylon and Darwin in the air. Vinny personally drowned a bunch of equipment in the proving grounds during Operation Dracula. Probably in the entrances of respectable Englishmen, too, crap, scoundrel.
                        Without him, the Angles would have won the war at 43. Just like the Germans without Hitler
                        Arguments about the banner over the Reichstag never suited me

                        Look at the loss ratio again.
                      23. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 16: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Look at the loss ratio again.

                        Here, forgive me, the secret is that until the 44th year they could afford not to ask for trouble. And in 44, yes, they performed strongly, although ...
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Probably in the entrances of respectable Englishmen, too, crap, scoundrel.
                        Without him, the Angles would have won the war at 43. Just like the Germans without Hitler

                        Hmm, an interesting alternative. Didn't come across before.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        This is yes. Vini surrendered Singapore and Hong Kong

                        There are no questions about Hong Kong, but Singapore and its surroundings, yes, it is.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        What did I specify the corps for? Coastal, of course.

                        Beregovaya acted rather strangely, sorry. Otherwise, Guadalcanal would not have become a cemetery. deck the pilots.
                      24. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 16: 39
                        +1
                        Otherwise, Guadalcanal would not have become a graveyard for deck pilots.

                        Where do you get this from?
                        Guadalcanal was a graveyard for everyone.
                        There was at that moment New Guinea - a forgotten theater of operations
                        Kanoya Air Corps - from Kavienga (New Ireland) vs Guadalcanal and New Guinea
                        Tainan - from Rabaul vs Guadalcanal
                        Genzan - from Rabaul against New Guinea
                        All 42
                      25. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 16: 44
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Where do you get this from?

                        What exactly? That carrier-based aircraft were actively used from Rabaul, in connection with which they died?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Ainan - Rabaul vs. Guadalcanal

                        No, not only the deck one died, there is no dispute.
                      26. Engineer
                        Engineer 18 December 2020 16: 50
                        +1
                        Coastal did not appear strange.
                        It burned down like the deck one in 42. Excellent in preparation and unparalleled in this. In the fight against it, the ILC aviation strengthened. In 43, it will already have a qualitative and quantitative superiority.
                      27. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 16: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        It burned down like the deck one in 42.

                        43rd rather. The Japanese write that the Lightings have become a problem, and the Corsairs have gotten really bad. This is the 43rd.

                        But in general, of course, the Japanese are pretty, I won't argue.
  2. unknown
    unknown 17 December 2020 21: 31
    0
    And what's good about Japanese heavy cruisers?
    We build in one displacement, then constantly rebuild, increasing the displacement at the expense of boules. That in itself is an irrational use of displacement. If the Japanese initially built their MRT in the final displacement obtained, then there would be more benefits.
    Moreover, KTU of excess power, dimensions and weight. The result is obtained not at the expense of quality, but at the expense of quantity. Not for nothing, the British called the Japanese school of shipbuilding "dilettan".
  3. Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 18 December 2020 14: 56
    0
    Yes and no.
    An attempt to shove a liter of beer into a half-liter mug really came out sideways due to the need to strengthen the structure and add boules. The paradox is that the modernizations carried out significantly improved the original design, although they consumed all the reserves for the necessary modernization.
    On the power plant. There was a certain margin in the original project, but again a paradox! In contrast to other countries, an increase in displacement and the addition of boules led to an increase in the admiralty coefficient and propulsion characteristics of the propulsion device. So the speed dropped slightly.
  4. Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 16: 00
    0
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    The paradox is that the modernizations carried out significantly improved the original design, although they consumed all the reserves for the necessary modernization.

    Some kind of oxymoron ... :)
  5. Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 21 December 2020 11: 46
    0
    Sorry, Maksim, he spoke unsuccessfully.
    I wanted to say: the modernizations carried out to eliminate the defects in the design of the ship gobbled up all the reserves to improve the combat qualities. In particular, it was not possible to form a reliable air defense system.
  6. Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 21 December 2020 18: 23
    0
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    In particular, it was not possible to form a reliable air defense system.

    It would be something to form: the "reverse engineering" of the "Bofors" turned out to be very long for the Japanese.
  7. Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 22 December 2020 10: 36
    0
    Well, we have already explained about the "bofors". Do not ice with a small number.
    It made sense to install 6 - 8 twin 100-mm / 65 type 98 (127-mm station wagons, catapult and aircraft - down with), as well as to develop six-barreled (two blocks of three barrels) 25-mm units with power drives for dagger fire. Well, the control systems, of course.
  8. unknown
    unknown 17 December 2020 21: 23
    +1
    Kenningham got York. And he was pleased.
  9. Engineer
    Engineer 18 December 2020 13: 06
    0
    And Berwick too. Participated in the battle at Teulada
    "County" and in its displacement could have been better protected.

    It is necessary to look at the booking schemes. But here no one seems to want to do this)
  10. Catfish
    Catfish 17 December 2020 01: 04
    +2
    Specifically, the British did not have a "six-inch gatling

    Denis hi , I know what the Gatling system is, but even with difficulty I can not imagine how it crawled over 6 "artillery. request
  11. Engineer
    Engineer 17 December 2020 01: 09
    0
    Just a figure of speech is something very rapid-fire.
    But exactly how fast-fire - here we are fighting a duel.
    Good night and I should sleep)
  12. Catfish
    Catfish 17 December 2020 01: 10
    +2
    Thank you, otherwise I already decided that the computer had turned off.
    Good night.))
  13. unknown
    unknown 17 December 2020 21: 20
    0
    The mass of the Spee power plant is 2338 tons. Without any problems in terms of weight and dimensions, it is replaced by a more powerful and lighter one. The gain in displacement is exchanged for more optimal hull contours and an increased fuel reserve. 11 "is an order of magnitude better than 8". As a result, we get the best WWII heavy cruiser.
  14. Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 17 December 2020 21: 39
    0
    Quote: ignoto
    As a result, we get the best WWII heavy cruiser.

    Options for the modernization of "pickpockets" in 38-39 years were slightly less than dofig (officially known about 9), but by the beginning of the war (September 39th) they did not come to the final version.
    But there were plans ...
    Deutschland from December 42nd to December 43rd
    "Scheer" from January 41st to January 42nd
    "Spee" from June 42nd to June 43rd.
  15. Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 18 December 2020 11: 42
    0
    The mass of the Spee power plant is 2338 tons. Without any problems in terms of weight and dimensions, it is replaced by a more powerful and lighter one. The gain in displacement is exchanged for more optimal hull contours and an increased fuel reserve. 11 "is an order of magnitude better than 8". As a result, we get the best WWII heavy cruiser.

    Well, it's just the opposite!
    The power plant is not like a wolf, but with the existing contours and 30 knots in the load you cannot scrape together, even with 55 hp. on the shaft. The refinement of the contours is also not unlimited - the example of Conti di Cavour.
    The gain in displacement cannot be exchanged for tanks, everything is already packed to capacity. Either you will float or book.
    For a cruiser of 10 T (in fact, 000 T) 12x000-3 "is not an order of magnitude, but worse than 2 - 11 -8" due to the reduced rate of fire and the unimportant distribution of running / retired fire, and there is still nothing to oppose to Dunkirk, Ripals and Congo ...
    The dithyrambs that were sung by the adherents of the "young school" to Battleship A have become a replicated dogma. Yes, the 283-mm projectile is the ultimate for all cruisers of 10 T (officially) and below, but the 000-mm projectile of the "Washington" is quite killed for Deutschland, except for the frontal projection of the main battery turrets. Considering that the opponents of cruisers will have more, it is most likely that the hunted pickpocket will be put in two or three fires, which predetermines a more or less heroic death with no chance of salvation.
    A balanced (I don't like this term) cruiser with 283-mm artillery must carry at least eight main guns, be protected from 203-mm shells at real combat distances, and not be inferior in speed to the "enemy Washington". True, the 283-mm caliber in the German version is extremely toothless against new battleships and battle cruisers.
  • unknown
    unknown 17 December 2020 21: 15
    0
    "County" and in its displacement could have been better protected.
    "Trento" - 888 tons of armor, belt 70mm, deck up to 50mm.
    "County" - 1025 tons of armor, ammunition storage and 25 mm bulkhead of the engine room.
    How so? The booking system is no less strange than that of the French.
  • unknown
    unknown 17 December 2020 20: 56
    0
    The Japanese had 6 "turrets of guns of an unsuccessful design, which sharply reduced the rate of fire of the guns.
  • unknown
    unknown 17 December 2020 20: 40
    0
    The latest generation light cruisers are better armored than most "good old heavy" cruisers. In addition, as Patyanin writes, Town-class cruisers produced almost twice as much metal per minute as any of the British heavy cruisers.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 17 December 2020 21: 20
      +1
      Quote: ignoto
      In addition, as Patyanin writes, Town-class cruisers produced almost twice as much metal per minute as any of the British heavy cruisers.

      Fire performance is a thing in itself. Yes, numbers look nice, but in the real world they are not needed.
      An example from history: the battle in the Danish Strait.
      "Bismarck" - rate of fire 1 volley per minute, with a possible 2 and theoretical 3
      "Eugen" - 2 volleys per minute, with a possible 4 and theoretical 5.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 16 December 2020 23: 23
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    But in retrospect it turned out that this did not play any role at all.

    Hm ... It's just that they didn't really have a single adequate duel with a comparable enemy, but the thicker armor of battleships did not always save against dive bombs, let alone a cruiser, I generally keep quiet about torpedoes request After Jutland, there were no classic artillery butting, where the ship was tested for stability for a long time. It is in such a collision that it is revealed that there is armor and that it can smile
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 17 December 2020 01: 01
      0
      Simply that they have not really fought a single adequate duel with a comparable opponent.

      I wrote that, it is not verified by yapami.
      But against the bombs of dive bombers, the thicker armor of battleships did not always save, what can I say about the cruiser, I generally keep quiet about torpedoes

      Even 75 mm of deck armor does not guarantee a 500 kg bomb.
      Specifically, Fiji caught a close gap and not from a dive bomber, but from a messer with a bomb (apparently 250 kg) - a strong roll and a speed of 17 knots. Then 3 bombs in KO, and possibly directly into the pipe.
      Therefore, at least 50 mm of deck armor at least 80 would not play a role.
      I wrote about this
      I'm not talking about torpedoes at all

      It's really not worth writing about torpedoes and their danger to British ships, you are right laughing
  • unknown
    unknown 17 December 2020 20: 35
    0
    The Japanese did not have a similar concept for light cruisers.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 16 December 2020 20: 56
    0
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    I would like to hear the names of analysts and the titles of their work ...

    )))
    Well, I think.

    As in most other topics, the best of this or that technique is the level of Internet srach and murzilok for a young reader, like the Discovery channel or the Marine collection of the Model Constructor (with all the warmth to the latest edition, at one time it was just wow what is) ...

    The British themselves considered Colony - of their own - the best. Here it is enough to look at the tab of the ships.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 16 December 2020 21: 16
      +4
      Quote: Cherry Nine

      The British themselves considered Colony - of their own - the best. Here it is enough to look at the tab of the ships.

      By the criterion of cost and nothing more ...
      Actually for this (to reduce the size of the ship, and therefore to make it cheaper), the British came up with all the contracts. :)
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 16 December 2020 21: 37
        0
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        By the criterion of cost and nothing more ...

        Well, all the same, Colony, not Didot. And yes, getting a reasonable ship for a reasonable price is quite a weighty argument.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 16 December 2020 21: 40
          +1
          When the US needed a "sensible ship" the Americans burned down the Cleveland.
          When Britain had a need for a "smart ship" the British shot down a pair of "Fiji" - "Dido" ...
          Such a saving. :)
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 16 December 2020 22: 06
            0
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            When the US needed a "sensible ship" the Americans burned down the Cleveland.

            The Americans have never had a need for intelligent ships, sorry. It seems that we have already touched on this topic. And Cleveland does not belong to the reasonable even against the general American background.
            washed down a pair of "Fiji" - "Dido" ...

            americans gash

            Atlanta-Cleveland.
            1. Macsen_wledig
              Macsen_wledig 16 December 2020 22: 51
              +1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Atlanta-Cleveland.

              No no...
              Then past the box office: "Atlanta" is by no means a squadron cruiser. :)
              In addition, you can compare the number of "atlas" and the number of "dido".
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 16 December 2020 23: 08
                0
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Atlanta is by no means a squadron cruiser. :)

                Well, everything is complicated there.
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                In addition, you can compare the number of "atlas" and the number of "dido".

                11 and 16. Or is less than 20 unprotected for Americans?
                1. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 17 December 2020 18: 55
                  0
                  Initially, the Atlas is even smaller. :)
                  Their 3rd series began to be built when the British had already decided that the small cruiser was evil.
      2. unknown
        unknown 17 December 2020 21: 09
        0
        The British wanted a cruiser with a standard displacement of 8000 tons. It did not work. The ships had a displacement from 8530 tons to 8821 to. At the same time, they had insufficient stability and low opportunities for modernization. As a result, it was necessary to remove one turret, increase the width of the hull, and the displacement. Was the game worth the candle? In the end, it turned out to be an analogue of "La Galissoniera", only larger in displacement, and worse armored.
        But, the cruiser with a displacement of 8000 tons could be approached from the other side. Do not "squeeze" the "towns", but increase the cruiser with a smaller displacement. For example, take the cruiser Argentina as a basis. Standard displacement 6500 t. Armament 9 * 152. That is what they eventually came to. Additional rooms for 60 cadets, which would also be useful. And three directors of main fire control, two for anti-aircraft artillery. Increase the displacement to the negotiated displacement, enhance the booking, anti-aircraft weapons.
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 16 December 2020 18: 42
    +1
    Thanks, Roman.
    I thought that they were fighting for extra pounds only in aviation)))
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 16 December 2020 18: 48
    0
    Udevila weak armor of the towers -25mm on the sides! With a successful combination of circumstances, any ship, whose weapons would have consisted of guns of at least 100mm caliber, could deprive the cruiser of the ability to fire the main caliber!
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 16 December 2020 18: 59
      +5
      Quote: Thrifty
      Weak armor of the towers -25mm on the sides was surprised!

      It will save you from shrapnel hits, and you can't even book your cruiser turret from a direct hit from the BB (for real combat distances) - it's too hard.
      Therefore, why pay more? .. (c)
      For example, the Japanese acted in the same way on their KRT - "Chokai" it even saved in the 1st battle at Savo.
    2. Bormanxnumx
      Bormanxnumx 16 December 2020 20: 52
      +1
      Quote: Thrifty
      Weak armor of the towers -25mm on the sides was surprised!

      I kept the fragments of the 6 "shell and there was a chance that a br shell would penetrate the turret for flight without detonating the armor volume.
    3. mmaxx
      mmaxx 17 December 2020 15: 06
      0
      This is common to all English ships. We decided that there should be through penetrations. Even on battleships. The cruisers were in luck. The concept came true. The Prince of Wales was out of luck.
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 17 December 2020 18: 45
        0
        Quote: mmaxx
        The Prince of Wales was out of luck.

        Where is the bad luck?
        In the battle in the Danish Strait, there were no hits in the main battery towers.
        There was a hit in the reloading compartment of the UK tower, but there the shell went right through.
        1. mmaxx
          mmaxx 20 December 2020 17: 55
          0
          The "Prince" flew into the conning tower. She had anti-splinter armor. As predicted, it struck through without a break. But the people were killed pretty well.
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 20 December 2020 17: 59
            0
            Quote: mmaxx
            The "Prince" flew into the conning tower.

            Not in the conning tower, but in the upper bridge, which had no armor at all.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 16 December 2020 18: 53
    +5
    Well .... The frogs consider their Galissoniers to be the most balanced, the Yankees consider their Clevelands, whom they have scolded more than all the English turret light cruisers put together. The British - their "Fiji". Moral - each sandpiper praises its swamp. Therefore, if a ship is made under severe restrictions and for this or that improvement it needs to sacrifice part of its armament, then how can it be the best? Moreover, they were drowned by bombs and torpedoes No. Just made cheaper "workhorses" than the really better Southamptons request
  • Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 17 December 2020 12: 29
    0
    Thank you, Roman!
    As always interesting.
    I also consider the Colonies to be extremely successful ships, but not due to their outstanding characteristics, but due to their large number and reliability.
    It was a cruiser soldier, and there must be a lot of soldiers (war loves large battalions). As Vysotsky sang, "the soldier is always healthy, the soldier is ready for anything," and their reliability ensured their constant combat readiness. These cruisers could be sent to battle as part of a formation, attached to escort a convoy, sent on a solo voyage and to search for raiders. Moreover, in any theater of operations, in any weather.
    On the issue of the notorious "balance". The term suffers from excessive academicism. The ship is created to solve certain tasks, and as far as the means of attack and defense, as well as the driving performance and the reserve of autonomy, correspond to this, it is so effective, even if some properties are achieved to the detriment of others, recognized as less important.
    Regarding artillery: which is better than twelve six-inch guns with a rate of fire of six rounds per minute or eight eight-inch guns with a rate of fire of four, the question is again decided by the military designation. It should be noted that the real rate of fire in battle is one and a half to two times lower than the technical characteristics of artillery systems, which makes eight eight-inch guns very unconvincing in the battle of light forces. But in the hunt for a raider - a slight advantage will be for eight-inches.
    In this respect, the domestic 180-mm guns of light cruisers look good, although they are partially damaged by cap charges and a piston bolt.
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 17 December 2020 15: 08
      0
      For some reason, our sailors did not want more cruisers with 180-mm guns. We wanted 6 ".
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 17 December 2020 18: 47
        +1
        Quote: mmaxx
        For some reason, our sailors did not want more cruisers with 180-mm guns. We wanted 6 ".

        This is simply because the USSR signed the Anglo-Soviet Maritime Agreement.
        And initially it was planned to build 15 KR pr. 26/26-bis.
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 17 December 2020 15: 03
    0
    Still, in the eyes of the teapot, "Colony" is the best on paper. In real life, the Clevelands were the best. No need to throw tomatoes! But all their shortcomings did not affect the actions in the war. Everything there was pretty decent.
    Unless the service with the British was more fun.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 17 December 2020 18: 51
      +1
      Quote: mmaxx
      In real life, the Clevelands were the best.

      Naturally ... A larger ship, with a more powerful weapon system.
      It was not in vain that the British designed Neptune, which was essentially a British copy of Cleveland.
      1. unknown
        unknown 17 December 2020 21: 36
        0
        In real life, -11000 tons. And no displacement reserves.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 17 December 2020 19: 41
      0
      Quote: mmaxx
      In real life, the Clevelands were the best. No need to throw tomatoes!

      How to say.

      Cleave has three big drawbacks.
      1. It was poorly done.
      2. It was small and late - the number of Cleaves in the fleet exceeded the number of Omaha only in the 44th year.
      3. He was insanely expensive. Cleve 31M, Balt 37M, Dakota 60M. Here is never a Cleve 80% of Balt.
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 17 December 2020 19: 59
        +1
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        1. It was poorly done.

        It was done well, the only drawback is that the project is not mobilization: the simplification of the structure came out sideways.

        Quote: Cherry Nine
        2. It was small and late - the number of Cleaves in the fleet exceeded the number of Omaha only in the 44th year.

        It now looks like the reflections of historians, but what would have happened if the "artist" had attacked the USSR not in 41st but in 42nd.
        In general, it's like comparing warm to soft: in addition to "Omah", YUS-Navi had other cruisers.

        Quote: Cherry Nine
        ... Here is never a Cleve 80% of Balt.

        And the two Cleves?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 00: 55
          0
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          It was done ok, the only negative

          An ultimate project without reserves with a balance of qualities turned out to be an error. As a result, when they began to clog the deck with ehrlikons, the superstructures - with radars, and the premises - with service personnel, they turned out herring in a barrel, this is what the Americans have!
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          It now looks like the reflections of historians, but what would have happened if the "artist" had attacked the USSR not in 41st but in 42nd.

          I didn't understand the analogy. Do you have any objections to the fact that the first cleaves and the last Fiji entered service in the summer of 42?
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          after all, besides the "Omah", YUS-Navi had other cruisers.

          Yes, 10 Omaha, 9 Brooklyn (not counting losses), Wichita, 7 New Orleans, 10 early Washingtonians, mostly Nordhamptons. Quite a sad picture for 43, to be honest.
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          And the two Cleves?

          And two Cleves, respectively, are not 160% of the Balt and, moreover, not one Dakota. That is, if the logic is two balts - a battleship can still be accepted, then two cleaves - a battleship - absolutely not.
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 10: 53
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            An ultimate project without reserves with a balance of qualities turned out to be an error.

            I wrote above that the project is not "mobilization".
            By the way, with all the minuses of "Cleve", I somehow do not remember that he "sawed off" the towers. :)

            Quote: Cherry Nine
            it’s the Americans!

            So it was with everyone ...
            But for some reason everything is bad for the Germans and Japanese ... :)

            Quote: Cherry Nine
            I didn't understand the analogy.

            I mean, you cannot be ready for war all the time.

            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Quite a sad picture for 43, to be honest.

            Compared to the cruising forces of which fleet?

            Quote: Cherry Nine
            That is, if the logic is two balts - a battleship can still be accepted, then two cleaves - a battleship - absolutely not.

            I do not quite understand the logic of comparing a snake and a hedgehog. In this case, the battleship and the cruiser in monetary terms.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 11: 01
              0
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              I don’t remember having the towers “sawed off” for him. :)

              He was slightly drowned.
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              I mean, you cannot be ready for war all the time.

              The war has been going on since 39, that's it. In Asia since the 37th. An additional cruising limit was allocated in May 38th. Cleave was laid in the summer of 40, where is the hurry?
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              Compared to the cruising forces of which fleet?

              Japanese, no?
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              I do not quite understand the logic of comparing a snake and a hedgehog. In this case, the battleship and the cruiser in monetary terms.

              Well, the Engineer is pushing it above. In any case, cleaving to balt like 31:37 is normal, do you think?
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 11: 21
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                He was slightly drowned.

                As if "cleave" is the only ship that has been "sunk" by upgrades.

                Quote: Cherry Nine
                An additional cruising limit was allocated in May 38th.

                What budget year? What is the finished project?

                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Japanese, no?

                Then why didn't you compare right away ... :)

                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Well, the Engineer is pushing it above.

                Well ... Each hut has its own toys. :)

                Quote: Cherry Nine
                In any case, cleaving to balt like 31:37 is normal, do you think?

                To consider something normal or not, you need to understand what the price consists of.
                In general, on the fingers, a ton of displacement KRL and KRT has a commensurate cost.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 11: 39
                  0
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  As if "cleave" is the only ship that has been "sunk" by upgrades.

                  Not the only one, but none of these are somehow "best in class". Besides, Cleve was not modernized, it was built like that. If the Yankees had cut off the tower to keep up with the trends of the Brooklyn era, and at least two, there would have been no questions.
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  What budget year? What is the finished project?

                  We have already discussed this in relation to the sabotage LK "South Dakota", it seems. Is the absence of a project objective circumstances?
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  a ton of displacement of KRL and KRT has a commensurate cost.

                  The cost is yes, but at the expense of the combat capabilities of these two ships, I would not say. Above, I hack into an eight-inch machine, but the position that KRL should be substantially smaller and cheaper MRT is definitely correct. And so the Yankees have their own Takao, but KRL is much more expensive, while he has nothing to catch against Takao.
                  1. Macsen_wledig
                    Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 11: 48
                    0
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Besides, Cleve was not modernized, it was built like that.

                    Remind me which air defense and which electronic equipment was included in the project.

                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    If the Yankees had cut off the tower to keep up with the trends of the Brooklyn era, but at least two, there would have been no questions.

                    Not ... The towers were not cut off ...
                    They just built boules.

                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Is the absence of a project objective circumstances?

                    Is not it so? How can you build something without knowing how much this "something" will cost?
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 12: 06
                      0
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      Is not it so? How can you build something without knowing how much this "something" will cost?

                      Have the London restrictions been brought to the Bureau of Design? They don't have to change Omaha until 42? Did they not know about the idea to upgrade the total contractual VI? Again, do you really think that the clearing 2 years after Fiji is an objective circumstance?
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      Remind me which air defense and which electronic equipment was included in the project.

                      There is no REO, only 5/38 air defense + machine guns, no average aura.
                      Best in class? 40th year bookmark.
                      1. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 12: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Before the Design Bureau, there were

                        Comrade ... You are using the epilogue unnecessarily.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Have the London restrictions been brought to the Bureau of Design?

                        They failed in them: it turned out only "Atlanta".

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        They don't have to change Omaha until 42?

                        So the Atlanteans are slowly sawing ...

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Did they not know about the idea to upgrade the total contractual VI?

                        How does this affect the appearance of the project?

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Again, do you really think that the clearing 2 years after Fiji is an objective circumstance?

                        If the Americans had a draft of the conditional "Cleveland" of 38 kt for March 8, then we can agree with you, but there was no such project ...
                        The development of the project began only on 02.10.39.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        AA defense only 5/38 + machine guns, no average aura.

                        Installation locations and displacement for 4 "Chicago pianos" were reserved.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Best in class? 40th year bookmark.

                        In aggregate +/-, it did.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 13: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        You are using the message too much.

                        )))
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        They could not

                        Ага.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        They don't have to change Omaha until 42?

                        So the Atlanteans are slowly sawing ...

                        There, to replace the first two Omaha in general, Brooklyn gash unscheduled.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        How does this affect the appearance of the project?

                        Well, as if there should be an understanding that already in the 38th it is possible to lay a relatively large series of ships.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        If the Americans had a draft of the conditional "Cleveland" of 38 kt for March 8, then we can agree with you, but there was no such project ...
                        The development of the project began only on 02.10.39.

                        Again. The fact that the Americans did not develop the KRL project for almost 4 years from London, and in the end cut Brooklyn, exchanging one tower for 5/38 - are these objective circumstances? And Brooklyn, by the way - is this a normal KRL?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Installation locations and displacement for 4 "Chicago pianos" were reserved.

                        It seems like I had to load more ballast under the piano. The original project with machine guns only.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        In aggregate +/-, it did.

                        In aggregate, the +/- cleave became a cog in Nimitz's ultimate death machine. The question whether it was successful in itself is lost against the general background.
                      3. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 14: 34
                        0
                        I wrote and wrote, but it fell ... :(
                        In short ...

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Well, as if there should be an understanding that already in the 38th it is possible to lay a relatively large series of ships.

                        Do you think the ship design is developed "on click"?
                        Is funding allocated "on the click"? The Fed did not exist then ...
                        By the way, what will you justify the construction of a large series of cruisers before the Congress?

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Again.

                        Again... :)
                        The Americans were developing a project for a KRL in 8000 tons with a universal 6 "GK. The project was completed by the summer of 1939, but the tower needed a long fine-tuning.

                        While they were being tried and judged, WWII began, the restrictions fell off, which made it possible to start sawing the Brooklyn project.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        And Brooklyn, by the way - is this a normal KRL?
                        Any project has "flaws" in the eyes of an outside observer, but it often turns out that these "flaws" are the features of the school of shipbuilding.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        It seems like I had to load more ballast under the piano. The original project with machine guns only.

                        Friedman writes that everything was reserved.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The question whether it was successful in itself is lost against the general background.

                        Did Cleveland solve the tasks assigned to him or not?
                      4. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 14: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I wrote and wrote, but it fell ... :(

                        As always((
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        By the way, what will you justify the construction of a large series of cruisers before the Congress?

                        Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That in addition to the tonnages of the United States Navy as agreed upon and established by the treaties signed at Washington, February 6, 1922, and at London, April 22, 1930, and as authorized by the Act of March 27, 1934 (48 Stat. 503), as amended by the Act of June 25, 1936 (49 Stat. 1926), the authorized composition of the United States Navy in underage vessels is hereby increased by the following tonnages
                        ...
                        (c) Cruisers, sixty-eight thousand hundred seven and fifty-four tons, making a total authorized underage tonnage of four hundred and twelve thousand five hundred and twenty-four tons

                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The Americans were developing an 8000-ton cruise line with a universal 6 "GK.

                        Is this five-tower drug addiction a successful project? Only to me it seems to me that the Ministry of the Navy went downhill 80 years earlier than the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Any project has "flaws" in the eyes of an outside observer, but it often turns out that these "flaws" are the features of the school of shipbuilding.

                        Uh-uh, so I'm drowning for the fact that the entire American school of shipbuilding is about theft and sabotage.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Friedman writes that everything was reserved.

                        OK, I'll review it.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Did Cleveland solve the tasks assigned to him or not?

                        Are the ship tasks 1,5 times less and 2 times cheaper? Yes, I did.
                      5. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 15: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the

                        I'll put it differently.
                        You are the Secretary of the Navy, come to Congress and say "Give me money for a little cruisers ..." The speaker asks you: "On what basis? Is the country threatened?"
                        And you start broadcasting: "...."
                        Here you turn on your fantasy and broadcast ...

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Is this five-tower drug addiction a successful project?

                        This is exactly what I wrote about when I mentioned the "bystander".
                        And in you, moreover, the aftermath speaks again. :)

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Uh-uh, so I'm drowning for the fact that the entire American school of shipbuilding is about theft and sabotage.

                        These are your difficulties ...
                        I think that if such projects were drawn and approved, then most of the ideas put into them by American sailors were fine.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Are the ship tasks 1,5 times less and 2 times cheaper? Yes, I did.

                        "Crown Colony" served in the Pacific during the "hottest time"?
                        "County" I remember, "Linders" I remember, "Sydney" I remember ...
                        But I don’t remember a single "colony" for maintenance in 42-44 I don’t remember ...
                        Yes, you will now remember the East India Fleet, but in what battles did this very photo take part?
                      6. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 15: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        but in what battles did this same photo take part?

                        Strange argument. Did the Cleves fight a lot?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I think that if such projects were drawn and approved, then most of the ideas put into them by American sailors were fine.

                        I am extremely skeptical about the decision-making process at that time. First - a million meetings to drown responsibility, and then - a voluntaristic decision, which is made by some VRIO. Remember the failure of 30 nodes on the LC.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        This is exactly what I wrote about when I mentioned the "bystander".
                        And in you, moreover, the aftermath speaks again. :)

                        The afterthought that CFL of a healthy person is three crowns?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        The speaker asks you: "On what basis? Is the country under threat?"

                        Do I understand you correctly that by adopting the 2nd Act of Vinson Congress did not mean to build all these ships? So, made a clean noise?
                      7. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 15: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Strange argument. Did the Cleves fight a lot?

                        The second stage of the war on the Straw Islands is quite for the Clevelands.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        I am extremely skeptical about the decision-making process at that time.

                        Again ... Afterbirth. :)

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The afterthought that CFL of a healthy person is three crowns?

                        No ... Because each country has its own national troubles.
                        A good example of this is the Washington DCTs.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Do I understand you correctly that by adopting the 2nd Act of Vinson Congress did not mean to build all these ships?

                        For how many years was the financing of the construction of ships, stipulated by this act, divided and from what year did it begin?
                      8. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 16: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Again ... Afterbirth. :)

                        And, well, that's how they did everything right, it's just me, with the last word, I'm dissatisfied with something.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Because each country has its own national troubles.

                        Sorry, but 8K and 5 towers are too troublesome. I don't like 5 "Atlanta, 6" Atlanta all the more. By the way, Worcester Tower weighs 212 tons, Brooklyn - 170. These clowns thrust Brooklyn, even more, in 8K. Best in class, oh god!
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        For how many years was the financing of the construction of ships, stipulated by this act, divided and from what year did it begin?

                        Excuse me, but there you have to give financing without looking? When did the naval projects of all this good appear? We have a dispute between an egg and a chicken, or rather a cart and a horse.
                      9. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 17: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        And, well, that's how they did everything right, it's just me, with the last word, I'm dissatisfied with something.

                        The categories right / wrong are the essence of the afterthought.
                        In fact, we have the following:
                        - Agreement on restrictions,
                        - on the basis of which the seamen issue TTZ + their own wishes,
                        - on the basis of which the designers draw an N number of options,
                        - from which one or two suitable (more or less suitable for the customer) are selected for detailed study,
                        - the project is being worked out,
                        - at the end its price is calculated, with which customers go higher
                        - and try to convince to give money ...
                        And then it depends on luck - they will - they will not ...
                        Nobody saws an ideal project because this will never happen: no one needs a "white elephant" ...

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        grow, but 8K and 5 towers are too troublesome.

                        And the five towers of 5600 tons? :))))
                        Again, these are your, so to speak, complexes ...;)

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Atlanta even more so. By the way, Worcester Tower weighs 212 tons, Brooklyn - 170.

                        Actually, this led to "Cleveland": the tower "did not go."

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Best in class, oh god!

                        Take valerian, I'm scared for you ... winked

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Excuse me, but there you have to give financing without looking?

                        Voooooooot .... Finally, you realized that you don't give money for air. :)
                      10. The comment was deleted.
                      11. The comment was deleted.
                    2. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 18: 08
                      0
                      Is it really so difficult to edit a comment if something in the text doesn't suit you? request
                    3. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 21: 52
                      0
                      I have no idea what is wrong. Incitement to hatred of the "30s American Navy designers" social group? They didn't even seem to get very far from the topic.
                    4. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 18 December 2020 22: 08
                      0
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      I have no idea what is wrong.

                      It seems to me that the question was in the consumption of various "fuel". :)
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 18 December 2020 15: 04
    +1
    In general, the practice of the British in the North showed that they very calmly left the ships. Both the Edinburgh and Trinidad were destroyed by the British long before the cruisers ran out of survivability.


    The practice of escort operations.
    The specifics of the north sea: 3 minutes in ice water - guaranteed death from temperature shock. To remove the crew from the dying ship in advance, than to catch the icy corpses - this is called sanity.
  • Alexander Moiseev
    Alexander Moiseev 27 December 2020 11: 49
    0
    Hmm ... Less armor than tanks? One hit is enough.
  • misti1973
    misti1973 2 January 2021 04: 27
    0
    Who considers him to be the best and by what parameters is this a question? With such a GC it already makes you wonder what they can break through? That is, these are raiders, but with a decent armor belt and decent speed, but they were engaged in the protection of convoys. A very strange choice, because this is the case for cheap destroyers, which, in addition, have much more maneuverability, and having put a curtain, they can turn around and fashion a torpedo on, fast! And yet, by the way, it is a little short, and this is pitching, excessive fuel consumption, respectively, less range. But the most important thing is a decrease in shooting accuracy. And the captain's bridge is a very convenient coffin for everyone who will be there during the battle! These are usually made on civilian ships. When there are a lot of anti-aircraft guns, then in the squadron it is an air defense cruiser. But in the squadron you can run into the enemy squadron. And what is their value with their main battery?
  • Private SA
    Private SA 11 February 2021 02: 25
    0
    I wonder if Trinidad or Jamaica would have stayed afloat if rammed
    Queen Mary, as opposed to the first world Curacao?