Military Review

Toroidal shop

117
Food cartridges small weapons produced using magazines and tapes. Magazines provide minimal reload times, but have a lot of weight per cartridge - for example, low-impulse: 12 g for a steel drum magazine compared to 6,5 g for a nylon bag with a hard top in the version of the cartridge belt with an open steel link and 5 d in the version of the cartridge strip with an open plastic link.


Weight problem


The problem of reducing the weight of magazines is especially acute for machine guns designed for intensive firing. The large weight of the drum magazines forces the machine gunner's wearable ammunition to be limited or to place the cartridges in separate belts, spending additional time in battle on laying the belts in nylon bags or metal boxes.

Toroidal shop

The most common drum magazines have a capacity of 75 to 100 cartridges, which are located in a single row of cartridges formed by spiral punching on radial surfaces. The classic drum magazine consists of a body, a cover, a sector feeder and a torsion coil spring. In the neck of the magazine, instead of one of the jaws, a cartridge holder is installed, which provides vertical insertion of cartridges into the magazine and quick discharge of the magazine from cartridges. There is also a spring crank and connectors. The total number of assembly units of the drum magazine reaches two dozen.


Known paired designs of drum magazines with increased capacity with the rebuilding of cartridges from two streams into one. However, they have reduced reliability due to the complex kinematics of the movement of the cartridges and the doubled number of parts susceptible to damage and contamination.


In addition, there are simplified drum magazine designs consisting of an arc-bent double-row box magazine with a coil compression spring of the MWG 90-cartridge magazine type.

Until recently, the main structural material of drum magazines was steel, after mastering the production of engineering plastics, glass-filled polyamide and transparent polycarbonate began to be used. Polymer materials allow one and a half times to reduce the weight of the magazine per cartridge (up to 7 g for a 100-cartridge Ultimax), while ensuring visual control of cartridge consumption. However, even the most advanced drum magazine models still have a higher weight per cartridge than a nylon bag with plastic strap. The complexity of the design increases the cost and reduces the reliability of drum magazines compared to belt-fed machine guns.

Technical solution


In connection with the above, a new type of store (in two modifications) is proposed, having a weight (per cartridge) less than the specific gravity of a nylon bag with a plastic tape of equal capacity. A torus, a geometric body with a through axial hole, is used as a form factor for the new store. It is proposed to use modern plastics as the material for the store body - opaque polyphenylene sulfide and transparent polyarylate.

Polyphenylene sulfide is an engineering plastic with a specific gravity of 1,6 g / cm60. The operating temperature is in the range from -250 to +1 ° C. The low viscosity of the polyphenylene sulfide melt makes it possible to manufacture cast products with a wall thickness of 100 mm. Filling the plastic with carbon microfibers (1x40 microns) with a mass fraction of 0,5% and an elastomer - polydimethylsiloxane with a mass fraction of 210% makes it possible to increase its tensile strength up to 68 MPa and impact strength up to XNUMX kJ / mXNUMX.

Polyarylate is used for the manufacture of headlight diffusers for cars. Its specific gravity is 1,2 g / cc. The working temperature of the plastic is in the range from -60 to +200 ° C. In order to ensure the impact resistance of the polyarylate, an additive of 0,5% titanium dioxide is added to it, which increases the impact strength of the plastic to 100 kJ / m150. The wear resistance of polyarylate products is ensured by a coating (made of polyarylate varnish with ceramic nanoparticles), which forms a chemical bond with the part material. The strength of the polyarylate at the level of 1 MPa is ensured by filling it with single-walled carbon nanotubes with a mass fraction of XNUMX%.

Non-collapsible version of the toroid store


The simplest version of the proposed store is its non-separable modification, consisting of only two assembly units - a toroidal body with a side neck and a prismatic helical compression spring with a roller feeder.


The body is made in one piece with an internal spiral baffle forming a single-row stream of cartridges. The partition mates with the body along the radii of the circular arcs and serves as a stiffener. On its surface there are longitudinal projections for contact with the base and shoulder of the bottle cartridge cases. In the case of using telescopic cartridges, there are no protrusions, the cartridges are in direct contact with the bases of the partition. The spring is connected to the roller feeder by passing its last turn through the axial hole in the feeder with subsequent clamp connection of its free end to the penultimate coil of the spring. A rocker lock with a leaf spring is installed in the neck.

The helical spring is inserted into the neck when the lock is released. The coil spring is cocked by inserting cartridges into the magazine. The body is cleaned with the spring removed using water, an aqueous solution of a cleaning agent, gasoline or aviation kerosene.

The material of the body and the feeder is polyphenylene sulfide, the material of the springs and the retainer is steel. The technology for manufacturing the body includes casting a plaster model, molding plastic under pressure into a mold, destroying the model on a vibration stand with pneumatic removal of gypsum dust. The coil spring is produced by hardening on a spiral bent mandrel.

Case wall thickness корпуса 2 mm. With a magazine capacity of 100 cartridges of 5,45x39 mm caliber, the case diameter will be 150 mm, the height ꟷ 60 mm, and the diameter of the axial hole ꟷ 40 mm. Assembled magazine weight ꟷ 300 g.

Collapsible version of the toroidal store


A more complex design of a toroidal magazine is its collapsible modification, which consists of a body open from one of the ends with a side neck and a hollow axis, a plug-in cover with a hollow axis, and a tape spiral torsion spring equipped with a roller feeder and a locking bar. A rocker lock with a leaf spring is installed in the side neck.


On the inner radial surface of the body there is a spiral ridge, which forms the upper part of the cartridge stream. The hollow axle has a cutout for the spring retaining bar. The inner radial surface of the cover has its own spiral ridge, which forms the lower part of the cartridge stream. The hollow axis of the cover also has a cutout for the spring retaining bar.

The feed roller and stop bar are riveted to the folded ends of the coil spring. When the cover is inserted into the body, the locking bar enters the cutouts of the body and cover axes, connecting these parts of the structure into a common assembly. Disassembly of the structure is carried out by pressing the lock bar when the spring is in a deflated state.

The body material is polyarylate, the material of the feeder, bar, springs and retainer is steel. The body and cover are manufactured by standard injection molding. For the purpose of sequential unwinding of the coils, the spring plate has a thickness variable along its length by rolling between rolls of variable radius.

The thickness of the walls of the body and lid is ꟷ 2 mm. With a magazine capacity of 200 cartridges of 5,45x39 mm caliber, the case diameter will be 200 mm, the height ꟷ 70 mm, the diameter of the axial hole ꟷ 30 mm. Assembled magazine weight ꟷ 600 g.

The small number of assembly units of the toroidal store will greatly simplify its military operation. The weight of a toroidal magazine, almost equal to the weight of a steel belt with a loose link (or half the weight of a nylon bag with a plastic belt), will allow an infantryman's portable ammunition to have only loaded magazines.
Author:
Photos used:
Army-news.org, Guncoupons.net, All4shooters.com
117 comments
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  1. polpot
    polpot 30 November 2020 18: 06
    +8
    Interesting, thanks.
  2. Catfish
    Catfish 30 November 2020 18: 24
    +2
    Thanks to the author for the information. hi
    I wonder what the problem is with the lack of such stores for domestic weapons. I was especially impressed by the range of temperatures that Polyarylate can withstand.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 30 November 2020 20: 28
      +18
      I wonder what the problem is with the lack of such stores for domestic weapons.
      The fact that they, being manufactured, will not function.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 30 November 2020 20: 35
        +3
        Vic, good evening. What's the problem?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 30 November 2020 20: 44
          +14
          The problem, Constantine, is in the science of the general laws of mechanical motion and interaction of material bodies, or rather, in the complete ignorance of this science by the author.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 30 November 2020 22: 42
            +4
            Alas, I am not a gram in it either. request
            But below I read your comments and something came to me. smile drinks
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 30 November 2020 22: 51
              +6
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Alas, I am not a gram in it either.

              And here you don't need to know anything. It is enough to imagine where the springs will be compressed.
    2. Toucan
      Toucan 1 December 2020 01: 33
      +2
      Thanks to the author for the information.

      I read it with great interest! good
      But against the background of this publication, a logical question arises: how does this author manage to write articles so different in content and quality? Indeed, along with adequate and balanced work signed by Andrei Vasiliev, outright nonsense is sometimes published wassat And what are the comments of the "Operator" worth? belay So I ask myself a question, is this one person writing, or a "group of authors"? what If there is one, then Andrey has big problems, a split personality is clearly traced. belay
  3. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 30 November 2020 18: 26
    +7
    There is no comparison at all with the stores of previous designs. Is the toroidal shape the only distinguishing feature? A crude note.
  4. Abram Ivanovich
    Abram Ivanovich 30 November 2020 18: 32
    +8
    For cylindrical cartridges in a vacuum, stuffed with the force of a terminator - it will do.
  5. chenia
    chenia 30 November 2020 18: 47
    +6
    And what is the novelty?
    Although the roller, instead of the plate stop.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 30 November 2020 22: 26
      +5
      Quote: chenia
      And what is the novelty?

      The author nadybal somewhere such a spring that it is not clear where it will be compressed.
  6. acetophenon
    acetophenon 30 November 2020 18: 58
    +4
    The screw magazine for the light machine gun is just that. They shoot from a stop or bipod, so balance is not important.
    1. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 30 November 2020 20: 15
      +2
      Quote: acetophenon
      The screw magazine for the light machine gun is just that. They shoot from a stop or bipod, so balance is not important.
      auger magazine for AK for one hundred rounds
      The DPRK is already using a screw magazine at one hundred rounds.
      big store to AK
      And you can "grandfather's horn" ...
  7. bunta
    bunta 30 November 2020 19: 20
    +20
    Ahem. The cartridges transfer force to each other not in a straight line, but along a small tangent due to the spiral arrangement, therefore, in each gear from one cartridge to another, about 2-3% of the transmitted force is lost. That is, with a 100 cartridge magazine, the force of the feed spring should at least 4 times exceed the force to feed the first cartridge. And why do you think such sectors are made in the PKK drum? Now look at the first three cartridges in the neck and expand the feed force from the third in vectors. What will you get?
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 30 November 2020 20: 23
      +6
      The second version of the store is not functional at all. Basically.
  8. Lad
    Lad 30 November 2020 19: 23
    +1
    Very nice shops. Judging by the article, of course. And what about their practical reliability?
  9. merkava-2bet
    merkava-2bet 30 November 2020 19: 32
    +11
    We used them in the special forces, both the army and the police, the reviews are not unambiguous, I personally did not use them, and we did not have them, but the army men said it is better to carry a paired polymer magazine than to carry this bandura with 100 rounds, and besides, reloading a regular store is much easier than this large capacity store, especially for the M16 and M4 Flotop.
  10. Georgievic
    Georgievic 30 November 2020 19: 43
    +2
    Damn, term paper! Test!
    1. agond
      agond 30 November 2020 20: 06
      0
      But after all, it is probably not necessary to place cartridges in the store in a strictly ordered manner, that is, in a spiral, in one, two lines, or with the help of a tape, it seems that it is possible to feed cartridges to and directly from the bunker, using some mechanism, then the store will be very small
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 30 November 2020 23: 42
        0
        Quote: agond
        I think it is possible to feed cartridges to and directly from the bunker

        So the early samples of rapid-fire weapons, such as the Gatling grape-shot, had a free feed from the bunker.
        It was unreliable then, but now the rate of fire has increased.
  11. Wilderness
    Wilderness 30 November 2020 19: 53
    +4
    Very interesting. And if you remove the spiral comb from the lid altogether? And make it rotate relative to the store itself? Throw out the spring, it is a weak link and generally eats up a lot of space inside. Make the feeder roller in the form of a pin on the lid. And the rotation of this entire economy is carried out by movement, for example, of the shutter. Fasten the plate to the shutter handle, and oblique teeth-stops on the magazine cover. Make the plate folding (in one direction). Such is the collective farm mechanism ...
    1. merkava-2bet
      merkava-2bet 30 November 2020 20: 06
      +6
      Somewhere I saw such a patent for a large-capacity auger magazine driven by machine gun automation, if I find it, I'll post it.
    2. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 30 November 2020 20: 25
      +8
      Quote: Wilderness
      And the rotation of this entire economy is carried out by movement, for example, of the shutter.
      Lewis machine gun - the magazine rotates from the return movement of the piston using powder gases ...
      Lewis machine gun cartridge feed scheme
      In the USSR, a spring was already used in the DP-27 in the store - the Lewis scheme was considered complex and unreliable.
    3. SID
      SID 1 December 2020 16: 12
      0
      ... remove the spiral comb from the lid altogether? And make it rotate relative to the store itself?

      I think from the rotation when shooting such a large mass, there will be a corresponding imbalance. Those. holding and controlling the weapon will be extremely difficult for a hand weapon.
  12. bk0010
    bk0010 30 November 2020 20: 11
    +2
    It, IMHO, is unrealistic to equip, there is not enough strength. And there is little space for the spring, you need a spring of at least a third of its volume in order to push the last cartridges. Plus, something needs to be done so that the first cartridge goes up and not sideways.
  13. sedoj
    sedoj 30 November 2020 20: 11
    0
    Ideally, this is when the remainder of the cartridges is displayed in the colimator. And no transparent plastics are needed.
  14. Undecim
    Undecim 30 November 2020 20: 20
    +24
    A torus, a geometric body with a through axial hole, is used as a form factor for the new store.
    To begin with, the author has no idea what a torus is.

    A torus is a surface of revolution obtained by rotating the generatrix of a circle around an axis lying in the plane of this circle and not intersecting it. Simply put - a donut. Naturally, such a form is absolutely not suitable for a store.
    What the author has portrayed as a non-collapsible magazine is an ordinary drum magazine, in which the author tries to adapt a prismatic instead of a spiral spring.
    At the same time, the author, obviously, does not suspect that the dimensions of the spring, which will ensure the operation of his store, can exceed the most daring expectations. and the effort to equip the store is the physical capabilities of an ordinary soldier.
    In addition, prismatic springs are unstable and easily bent and twist under load. For this reason, they are always installed in rigid internal or external guides, in the form of corresponding to the shape of the spring in plan.
    Secondly, the author has absolutely no knowledge of the technology of processing plastics and offers some completely wild method of manufacturing.
    As for the second, collapsible version, it is not workable and demonstrates an extremely complete ignorance of the author in technical matters.
    The question is, what is this completely illiterate article doing under the heading "Weapons"?
    1. Momotomba
      Momotomba 30 November 2020 20: 43
      +2
      More generally, TOP is a surface of revolution formed by a circle around an axis lying with the circle in the same plane. If the axis crosses the circle - a closed torus, if not - an open torus. hi
      And so the author may not quite know some of the design solutions. He still has to learn how to design and construct.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 30 November 2020 20: 46
        +9
        He still has to learn how to design and construct.
        And also learn theormech, strength of materials, TMM and much more.
        1. Momotomba
          Momotomba 30 November 2020 22: 17
          +3
          The days of lone designers are long gone wink You consider, you design ... Then a technologist comes and you understand that you will have to redo everything crying
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 1 December 2020 00: 09
            +6
            Quote: Momotomba
            Then a technologist comes and you understand that you will have to redo everything

            It also happens vice versa. The technologist comes, measures everything, redraws, and then makes drawings for the thing that the locksmith was bungled with.
            1. Momotomba
              Momotomba 1 December 2020 07: 10
              +1
              Anything can happen. And a non-collapsible store, as it turned out, also happens ...
      2. psiho117
        psiho117 4 December 2020 04: 31
        0
        Quote: Momotomba
        He has yet to learn

        This is the Operator. He does not study, he crushes with the authoritative opinion of an expert Wiki.
    2. English tarantas
      English tarantas 1 December 2020 01: 03
      +6
      Even me, who does not understand well in technical sciences, was stunned by the very fact that the author proposed a non-separable drum magazine in the form of a "snail", suggesting to clean it with liquids, without saying what to do if something gets there and gets stuck, at least the same cartridge ...
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 1 December 2020 01: 06
        +7
        without saying what to do if something gets there and gets stuck, at least the same cartridge.
        Throw away with cartridge.
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas 1 December 2020 01: 19
          +1
          Somewhere I heard about disposable stores, but those seemed to be classic straight ones. But then why such a hassle, plastics are somehow tricky. It seems that the author does not even know about the design of magazine rifles, like a mosinka or a Mauser, even there everything is understood and reliably, almost like they did in Switzerland.
          1. SID
            SID 1 December 2020 16: 18
            +2
            wink
            disposable stores ...

            ... made of pressed toilet paper. In wartime conditions, it is even possible from B / U-shnoy.
            wink

            Just a joke :)
            Seriously, this option is not for all occasions, it makes sense for certain areas of "activity".
          2. psiho117
            psiho117 4 December 2020 04: 38
            0
            Quote: English tarantass
            Somewhere I heard about disposable stores, but those seemed to be classic straight

            nope, drumming. Jackhammer shotgun.
            https://modernfirearms.net/ru/gladkostvolnoe-oruzhie/ssha-gladkostvolnoe-oruzhie/jackhammer/
            Moreover, the store could also be turned into an anti-personnel mine by attaching special. fuse. When it was triggered, charges from all chambers were fired simultaneously, creating the effect of a directional fragmentation mine.
            An interesting idea for me bully It's a pity that the combat shotguns somehow didn't come in.
        2. Momotomba
          Momotomba 1 December 2020 07: 06
          0
          A non-collapsible store, in principle, does not understand ??? And then how to assemble it at the factory ?? lol
  15. Cowbra
    Cowbra 30 November 2020 20: 26
    +6
    Offtop, one might say ... Have you seen this?

    It took a long time to figure out what the name was, should it make sense? It turned out that 9 yards is the standard length of the machine-gun belt, and so, the second number yells "9th yard", when it ends, respectively, the film is translated - "For the whole machine-gun belt"
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 30 November 2020 21: 16
      +8
      9 yards is standard machine gun belt length
      9 yards is 8,2296 meters. Which machine gun has such belts?
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 30 November 2020 22: 02
        +4
        “Maxim” has about 6 meters.
        1. thekhohol
          thekhohol 30 November 2020 22: 15
          +1
          Apparently there are some "standard" tapes for 375 rounds.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 30 November 2020 22: 16
            +1
            How much can it weigh?
      2. Cowbra
        Cowbra 30 November 2020 23: 17
        +1
        Browning M2
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 1 December 2020 02: 23
          +1
          Eight meters of metal tape with .50 caliber cartridges, where only the mass of a bullet is 45-49 g ... and who can raise this pleasure in order to fill the tape into a machine gun?
          The hernia is guaranteed for calculation.
          1. Cowbra
            Cowbra 1 December 2020 02: 31
            +1
            And who runs with our weave 0 and runs somehow? The weight is not very good. old chip - I look at the machine gunner at the exit - I cry
          2. Cowbra
            Cowbra 1 December 2020 02: 34
            +1
            Over 8 - 9 yards
          3. Revolver
            Revolver 1 December 2020 04: 48
            +3
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Eight meters of metal tape with .50 caliber cartridges, where only the mass of a bullet is 45-49 g ... and who can raise this pleasure in order to fill the tape into a machine gun?
            The hernia is guaranteed for calculation.

            Aviation option. The infantry were shorter.
    2. dokusib
      dokusib 6 December 2020 00: 21
      0
      Nine yards is kind of like the length of the tape in American WWII aircraft machine guns. Number three did not shout anything as there is no number two on the fighters. Just nine yards is an analogue of our Russian expression to shoot everything to a piece of iron, to the whole piece of iron, or, if you like, to the fullest.
  16. Momotomba
    Momotomba 30 November 2020 20: 35
    +1
    Can you fully equip such a store with your hands through the neck? Or do you need a special adaptation?
  17. Stepan S
    Stepan S 30 November 2020 20: 39
    +7
    A photo tank was invented, the design is almost identical, a spring was added.
    1. nikon7717
      nikon7717 30 November 2020 22: 17
      0
      Who knows? How does this design differ from the PPSh double-strand disc? Where was the spring raised by turns?
      1. Bormanxnumx
        Bormanxnumx 30 November 2020 23: 22
        +3
        Quote: nikon7717
        Who knows? How does this design differ from the PPSh double-strand disc? Where was the spring raised by turns?

        In the PPSh "one-strand" tambourine)
  18. dgonni
    dgonni 30 November 2020 23: 03
    +4
    The author is handsome, of course. But it seems to me alone that changing the direction of supply of cartridges from the torus to the weapon with an angle of 90 degrees makes the store offered in this form inoperative from the word vaabsche?
    P.S. lateral forces in a double-row magazine with cartridge rebuilding play a significant role in terms of firing delays! And debugging such stores is not easy. And the author suggests a perpendicular change in the feed direction.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  19. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 30 November 2020 23: 33
    +2
    Curious but in my opinion too much. It will not turn out so compact, you will have to increase the radius to reduce friction, it will have something like an MWG for 90 rounds. Very cumbersome.


    The second photo shows a magazine for 50-60 rounds, it looks more compact and more adequate. I think on such containers and it is worth stopping.
    1. dgonni
      dgonni 30 November 2020 23: 50
      +2
      There is nothing better than a belt for a machine gun to create a density of fire! Therefore, the future is loose plastic tapes in nylon boxes.
      All these drum shops are super capacitive, it's from the evil one. Inconvenient heavy, unreliable in terms of feeding and cartridges when dusty.
      The Mini is not in vain created with dual power. Ribbon and standard store. Simplicity and reliability in one bottle.
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 1 December 2020 23: 38
        0
        Quote: dgonni
        The Mini is not in vain created with dual power. Ribbon and standard store. Simplicity and reliability in one bottle.

        Therefore, apparently, they decided to abandon it. Reliability is just not enough. And in most cases, the reason for the failure is the tape! wassat
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas 2 December 2020 02: 37
          0
          Therefore, apparently, they decided to abandon it.

          Who gave it up and when? I have not heard such news.
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 2 December 2020 23: 08
            0
            In December 2017, based on the results of military trials, the United States Marine Corps announced a decision to replace all existing M249 SAWs with M27 IAR (HK416). A sniper variant of the M38 DMR will also be adopted, also based on the Heckler & Koch 416.

            But the US army is still in thought, extended the contract for the supply of M249 until 2025 and continue testing.
            1. English tarantas
              English tarantas 3 December 2020 00: 30
              0
              The KMP replaced the M249 due to the fact that, given the need to be a more mobile connection, they do not need a machine gun in each platoon, since it is difficult to carry a machine-gun amount of cartridges. Their strategy has changed.
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 3 December 2020 23: 25
                0
                They need a machine gun, but they came to the conclusion that the M249 still did not provide the required fire density. Therefore, the replacement is not on the M4, but on the M27 IAR, which allows a much more intense fire with less weight than the M249.
                1. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 9 December 2020 17: 33
                  0
                  And now it remains to find out where the M249 went in the USMC company, and how many there were before and how many are now - I suspect you will have shock therapy laughing
                  All this fuss was started with one goal - to push the NK416 into service, the 249s were nominally withdrawn from the squad, their place seemed to be taken by the 416th, but the beauty is that the 249th remained in the company, but it seems as by themselves, and can be attached as needed to squads / platoons. And their number "by chance" increased from 9 to 12 laughing
    2. psiho117
      psiho117 4 December 2020 04: 41
      0
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The second photo shows a magazine for 50-60 rounds, it looks more compact and more adequate.

      what is in the second photo is not viable.
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 4 December 2020 22: 49
        0
        Quote: psiho117
        what is in the second photo is not viable.

        The second picture is skeletal for fans of shooting ranges and clarity. In general, such stores are sold in the states in the tens of thousands. Closed, of course.
  20. RealPilot
    RealPilot 1 December 2020 01: 54
    +1
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Alas, I am not a gram in it either.

    And here you don't need to know anything. It is enough to imagine where the springs will be compressed.

    Colleagues, good evening.

    After reading comments about springs, designer competencies, etc. I would like to largely agree with some unrealizability of the proposed solution ...

    Nevertheless, with all other points, I'm ready to hypothetically put in a good word for the unconventional designs of such stores.

    If the spring is replaced with small stepper motor with a lever (or a pair of three levers and / or gears under the cover)? Immediately according to the position, we will always know the remaining number of cartridges in the magazine, extraction and loading will be simplified and will not require effort, the mechanism can be rotated in one position (even if the drive fails, it will be possible to shoot single with a turn after each shot). Plus, the number of cartridges in the store can be increased by saving space for powerful springs ... A modern fighter almost always carries batteries, the absence of them, for example, from special forces, is becoming a rarity.

    This is the idea. I am not calling for implementation, it just came to my mind ... As an alternative approach to finalize the proposed product.
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 4 December 2020 04: 45
      0
      Quote: RealPilot
      If the spring is replaced with a small stepper motor

      That rare case when I agree with those who have one answer to all questions:
      So EMP! It will be very funny when, after the impulse, not only electronics, but also stores are turned off.
  21. English tarantas
    English tarantas 1 December 2020 01: 59
    +4
    Here, in the comments, they have already said why this invention does not make sense because it does not work.
    From the point of view of the layman of the level of the end user of the tool (privates and junior officers), not strong in technical matters, the proposed design raises strong doubts. For example, cartridges are loaded into the AK horn magazine under some effort, now we take the same spring, make it very long, compress it into a spiral, despite the fact that the drum will have a rather small diameter for such a long spring, and the larger the capacity, the larger this difference and we get a very strong spring with heavy removal and high pressure on the cartridges inside. And with a two-row "stream", taking into account the hole in the middle of this donut, with the same diameter of the drum, we will also get a smaller capacity. Then we recall that if something from a twig or a pebble and just sand (!) Gets into the AK horn, then the regular supply of cartridges will stop, and this is in the simplest design, because the proposal to make a non-separable drum seems senseless.
    And the funniest thing is that the author's proposal is to save the mass of the total ammunition, each drum will weigh a little less, but personally, I don’t like the drum itself in principle, if for machine guns, then it is better to reduce the weight ratio of cartridges and magazine by using elongated or extended magazines giving sufficient capacity in 45-60 cartridges (for AK stores), since in recent decades there has been a tendency to reduce, first of all, the dimensions of the weapon, the use of a drum in machine guns is excluded, and in general it is inconvenient, despite the fact that ordinary horns will give 60 cartridges, and for machine guns is pointless for the reason that a manual machine gun with magazine feed can be loaded with a horn of 60, and a belt feed gives much more critical advantages over a drum than saving weight.
    By the way, the author did not say how much weight is saved, give examples of drums and tapes actually used. Here it is written about the mass of the drum under 5,45 with a capacity of 200 rounds, well, the light machine guns of the RPK or Minimi tmpa will probably check it out, why the submachine gunner does not know a drum weighing 600 grams, probably so that his hands dry up, why the single 5,45 machine guns also do not know.
    1. Turist1996
      Turist1996 1 December 2020 02: 40
      0
      I agree on almost everything!
      I also note that round things are extremely unsuccessfully fit into wearable-transportable containers. Rectangular ones take up less space for the same weight.
      1. English tarantas
        English tarantas 1 December 2020 03: 30
        +1
        Yes, I wanted to write about the size, but a regular bag for 4 AK clips will take about the same amount of space, but with less weight. But the shape of the drum personally seems to me inconvenient in terms of loading, it is much more convenient to hold the horn, and even more so to put it in a bag for a discharge or in the same bag from which I took it out.
  22. Turist1996
    Turist1996 1 December 2020 02: 32
    +3
    Something seems to me that the problem of these stores lies in the physics of the process - try to push such a mass of cartridges through the spiral .. Here the mass itself plays a role for you, and the friction is "non-acidic", and even the vector of the applied force from the spring is never direct works ..
    A broken thing comes out ..
  23. Turist1996
    Turist1996 1 December 2020 02: 35
    +2
    And for tape products of a non-manual type, the tape pull mechanism was not invented for nothing.
  24. Waltasar
    Waltasar 1 December 2020 07: 24
    +3
    But once upon a time there were disadvantages to the articles and one could at least be guided by them.
    The picture with a collapsible version of the store is just fire.
    1. agond
      agond 1 December 2020 11: 22
      0
      For reference, gunsmiths - in addition to the very limited number of options for feeding cartridges used in weapons (tapes, magazines) in mechanical engineering, there are many ways to feed oriented parts from a bunker
      1. Waltasar
        Waltasar 1 December 2020 14: 27
        +2
        Quote: agond
        feeding oriented parts from the hopper

        I suspect that you can put a bunker with an automatic feed on some shilka and pour cartridges into it with a bucket, the carrying capacity will allow.
        But with the infantryman it is more difficult ...
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas 2 December 2020 02: 42
          +1
          I already imagined: Syria, the outskirts of the destroyed city, Shilka stands, dug in the tower and shoots nowhere, and with her a platoon of dark-skinned guys with buckets running around in three sweats like a master's estate is on fire, and under Shilka exactly eight guys, periodically change the trunks, according to two for each, one shoots, the other puts a new one, shob faster, while the "firemen" change during a smoke break wassat
  25. tolancop
    tolancop 1 December 2020 11: 41
    +1
    I look at the diagram of the spiral store and have doubts about its performance. The spring has to push through 3 turns of the spiral (and also reliably feed the cartridges). To compensate for the friction of the spring against the walls, it will have to be made very tight. But at the same time, the pressure on the spiral walls will also increase. In the workshop, I admit that this thing will still be able to work, but in the field it is hardly possible: dust, dirt, frozen condensate ... It looks beautiful on paper, but in real life everything will be much worse.
  26. Operator
    1 December 2020 11: 54
    0
    For comparison:
    - 100 plastic loose strap links weigh 100 grams;
    - 100 steel links of loose strap weigh 250 grams;
    - plastic toroidal magazine with a capacity of 100 rounds weighs 300 grams;
    - Hard top nylon bag with 100 plastic loose strap links weighs 500 grams;
    nylon bag with a hard top and 100 steel links of loose strap weighs 650 grams;
    - a plastic drum magazine for the Ultimax machine gun with a capacity of 100 rounds weighs 700 grams;
    - a plastic drum magazine for the RPK-16 machine gun with a capacity of 96 rounds weighs 900 grams.
    1. Micfoster
      Micfoster 1 December 2020 15: 59
      +4
      As a machine builder, I'm telling you, springs won't work like that.
      1. Operator
        1 December 2020 18: 04
        -2
        Did you use a coil spring, the plate of which had a variable thickness with increasing from the center to the periphery, to unwind the turns in reverse order?

        Coil spring wound on an arcuate mandrel (in the lower right corner)
        1. Micfoster
          Micfoster 2 December 2020 00: 56
          +3
          The point is not in the shape of the spring, but in its length and, accordingly, in the friction of the spring against the walls of the spiral groove. If the maximum diameter of the case is 9 mm, then 100 cartridges will have a length of 900 mm, respectively, the working stroke of the spring will be 900 mm, and the length of the spring will be at least 1300 mm, the number of turns will be 125-135. The friction against the walls of the spiral groove of the spring coils, even without taking into account the friction of the cartridges, will be large. Spring Calculator Link, NOT Ads! https://dztochmash.ru/compression2.html
          1. Operator
            2 December 2020 03: 22
            -2
            The coils of the helical compression spring touch the walls of the spiral stream of the cartridges pointwise, since the vertical parts of the coils are located diagonally, and not axially, relative to the axis of symmetry of the torus.

            In this connection, the friction of the turns against the walls (elastic force x contact area) will be minimal.
            1. tolancop
              tolancop 2 December 2020 14: 14
              0
              The friction of one turn can and will be minimal, but there are many turns. Incl. even a small value, when multiplied by a large value, will already give a noticeable frictional force. And the coils of the spring will be guaranteed to slide along the walls and even small irregularities on the wall (dirt, ice, etc.) will impede the movement of the spring. For a direct store, the situation is clearly much easier.
              1. Operator
                2 December 2020 14: 32
                -1
                The total area of ​​the point contact of 125-135 turns of the helical spring, wound from a wire of circular cross-section, with the walls of the spiral stream will be several square millimeters.

                The point contact of the spring coils with the walls of the spiral stream will allow you to either bypass or throw contaminants into the magazine free of cartridges.
    2. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 1 December 2020 17: 30
      0
      Quote: Operator
      For comparison:
      - 100 plastic loose strap links weigh 100 grams;
      - 100 steel links of loose strap weigh 250 grams;
      - plastic toroidal magazine with a capacity of 100 rounds weighs 300 grams;
      -
      Then you need to give in the article as an example "a device for charging a store"
      shop charging machine
      Sold online ...
      Price 12 740 rubles bully
      1. Operator
        1 December 2020 18: 07
        -1
        Good thing (12740 rubles - retail price).

        But in the Russian army, drum magazines of the RPK-74 or RPK-16 type with a similar elasticity of the springs are usually stuffed through the neck with a lock.
      2. Alexander Vorontsov
        Alexander Vorontsov 7 December 2020 19: 27
        -1
        What is it for? And how to use this with domestic loose powder in the field?
        1. cat Rusich
          cat Rusich 7 December 2020 19: 44
          0
          Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
          And how to use this with domestic loose powder in the field?
          You can watch the video ...
          And if in words - cartridges are inserted into the cells of the "rectangle with holes" - bullets down - with primers up, and then the handle up and down ... The spring moves the "rectangle" after each movement of the handle ... And so on until the magazine is fully charged. Better watch the video ... yes
          1. Alexander Vorontsov
            Alexander Vorontsov 7 December 2020 20: 34
            -1
            Quote: cat Rusich
            And so on until the store is fully charged. Better watch the video ...

            This is how they are inserted from the western boxes. Our combined arms format in which cartridges are supplied is completely different. You will first need to put them into the loader one by one, and then equip the stores from the loader. Those. it makes little sense. Especially in the field. + the skill needs to be maintained because in battle, there will be no such things and fine motor skills for equipment need to be worked out. Although ... maybe for some shooting galleries or people who have a crazy shot.
            1. cat Rusich
              cat Rusich 7 December 2020 20: 53
              0
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              Especially in the field. + the skill needs to be maintained because in battle, there will be no such things and fine motor skills for equipment need to be worked out. Although ... maybe for some shooting galleries or people who have a crazy shot.
              Just as the Germans reloaded their the shops to MG-34
              mg-34
              First, MG-34 also has a "toroidal magazine".
              equipment stores for MG-34
              And this is how they equipped stores for MG-34 in the field.
              1. Alexander Vorontsov
                Alexander Vorontsov 7 December 2020 20: 59
                -1
                It's not the same. It looks more like a crayfish typewriter, only for store equipment, but also "loose".

                The device presented above implies the delivery of cartridges in a box with a layout similar to this device.
                If you take zinc cartridges as in the video, the whole point is lost, tk. first, you will first need to sort them one by one into the holes in this device.
                1. cat Rusich
                  cat Rusich 7 December 2020 21: 13
                  0
                  Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

                  If you take zinc cartridges as in the video, the whole point is lost, tk. first, you will first need to sort them one by one into the holes in this device.
                  I'm talking about the fact that a soldier will have one or two "toroidal stores" - the rest in "usual horns" ...
                  He survived, reached the base or repulsed the attack. Then calmly, perhaps in turn - load the "toroidal store". The Germans in WWII somehow solved the problem of reloading "toroidal magazines" for MG-34 ... "Normal horn" is the best way today Power for AK assault rifle. And the "machine gun" needs to be "fed" from the tape (like the RPD-44) - and "don't look for problems out of the blue" - by inventing a "super-roomy store".
                  1. Alexander Vorontsov
                    Alexander Vorontsov 7 December 2020 21: 16
                    -1
                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    I'm talking about the fact that a soldier will have one or two "toroidal stores" - the rest in "usual horns" ...

                    What's the point? Well, look, there is a regular horn for 45 rounds.
                    Bother to increase to 60, meaning?
                    From 100 already there are solutions in the cloth tape.

                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    The "regular horn" is the best way to power an AK assault rifle today. And the "machine gun" needs to be "fed" from the tape (like the RPD-44) - and "don't look for problems out of the blue" - by inventing a "super-roomy store".

                    Well yes. What are we talking about))
                    1. cat Rusich
                      cat Rusich 7 December 2020 21: 35
                      0
                      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

                      What's the point? Well, look, there is a regular horn for 45 rounds.
                      Bother to increase to 60, meaning?
                      From 100 already there are solutions in the cloth tape.
                      )
                      In principle, there are "tambourines" (disk magazine) for 75 and 100 rounds (Chinese Drum) (for NATO there is a "tambourine" for 120 rounds from Drum)
                      disk store
                      Disk magazine ("tambourine").
                      This is perhaps the only one needed - for the first "fire contact" with the enemy - to crush him with fire and gain time to take a position. Then, when the "tambourine" is empty, discard it and use the "usual horn" (then "state property" will have to be picked up and dragged to the base). It's just that the "tambourine" is clearer than the "toroidal shop". It's just that "designers" need to "borrow their hands" and earn some money - so they "reinvent the wheel". yes
                      1. Alexander Vorontsov
                        Alexander Vorontsov 7 December 2020 21: 55
                        -1
                        People other than me wrote about tambourines here above - I can't make it reliable.
              2. John22
                John22 21 December 2020 20: 19
                0
                How did these pair shops work? Take turns, first on the left and then on the right?
                1. cat Rusich
                  cat Rusich 21 December 2020 20: 32
                  0
                  Quote: John22
                  How did these pair shops work? Take turns, first on the left and then on the right?

                  shop for MG-34
                  The store was working - one by one from the right and left half. For example - first a cartridge from the left half, the next cartridge from the right half. soldier
    3. panther
      panther 15 December 2020 22: 40
      0
      Have you tried prototyping? It will immediately become clear whether the idea is working or not.
  27. senima56
    senima56 1 December 2020 15: 19
    0
    Well, it turns out that the pilots of "Victory" drew an ordinary "toroidal shop" in the sky! wassat tongue good And they are, undeservedly, accused of "immoral offense"! fool hi
  28. SID
    SID 1 December 2020 16: 32
    0
    All the same, I give it a plus, paying tribute to the active striving and the work done.
    From the article, you can still isolate the particles of benefit, if desired. Not to mention what kind of cognitive impulse she gave out - judging by the comments.
    1. agond
      agond 1 December 2020 20: 48
      0
      The spring in the open-end magazine of nea 30 rounds visually occupies one quarter of its length, I did not find the exact data, instead of the usual spring, one should have come up with a shuttle-type device with a spring (spiral, like in a watch) that would rotate the bobbin, and the bobbin would wind on itself, thread fishing line wire, tape (suitable to choose) and, like a winch, pulled itself to the shutter of the machine by pushing cartridges in front of it, while it will take up a place in the store equivalent to 2 cartridges, how a standard magazine without a spring, but with a "winch" will hold 10 more cartridges with higher feed reliability than it is now.
      1. tolancop
        tolancop 2 December 2020 14: 17
        0
        We were late. Something like a bobbin for feeding cartridges has already been invented a long time ago. I read about this a couple of years ago on VO. There was a schematic, but the store seemed to be integral.
  29. Disorder
    Disorder 1 December 2020 21: 58
    +2
    Even the author did not go there. In the Russian army, there are no FN type machine guns with power from both the store and the tape. So you need to compare box and disk magazines. And here, in addition to weight, there are still dimensions. Horns can carry more cartridges than tambourines.
    1. agond
      agond 2 December 2020 19: 50
      0
      And in fact, for the sake of experiment, remove the spring from the AK store for 30 rounds, how much will its capacity increase
      1. Disorder
        Disorder 3 December 2020 01: 42
        0
        It will no longer be a magazine, but a box of cartridges. wink
  30. dokusib
    dokusib 4 December 2020 07: 32
    0
    Here is what Comrade Razvedos thinks about this. https://youtu.be/X7W7uGRyMAI Watch from 7.00
  31. Alexander Vorontsov
    Alexander Vorontsov 6 December 2020 10: 07
    -1
    The article is interesting, thanks!
    But as far as I know, all practical attempts to create magazines for more than 45 rounds turned into big problems with reliability.
    One of the problems is that the operating range of the spring is too large.

    At the same time, today they make fabric bags for machine-gun belts instead of metal boxes, and they learned to make the belt as light as possible.
    1. petroff
      petroff 7 December 2020 18: 32
      0
      But what about the four-row 60 rounds !? They are slightly longer in length than the usual 30 cartridge. Only wider. By weight, it is lighter than two by 30. By the same principle, you can make a four-row on the basis of 75 rounds. Well, it will be a couple of fingers longer. But the volume is 150 rounds ...
      1. Alexander Vorontsov
        Alexander Vorontsov 7 December 2020 19: 15
        -1
        Quote: petroff
        But what about the four-row 60 rounds !?

  32. mmaxx
    mmaxx 7 December 2020 13: 36
    0
    Or you can ask what is written here:
    "However, even the most advanced drum magazine models still have more weight per cartridge than a nylon bag with plastic strap."
    Unsuccessful Google translation?
  33. Alien From
    Alien From 7 December 2020 17: 24
    0
    I thank the author, it would seem a trifle, but how many nuances) hi
  34. Alexfly
    Alexfly 11 December 2020 13: 16
    0
    It would be interesting to shoot such a Kalash ...
  35. Phoenix
    Phoenix 27 December 2020 20: 00
    -1
    The army does not want any shops for light machine guns. They made the RPK-16, so they brushed it off and mold the RPL-20 ...
    1. agond
      agond 31 December 2020 20: 34
      0
      A very informative video about four-row magazines, it turns out that when an incomplete magazine hits the table, the inertia of the moving mass of cartridges compresses the spring, and when the inertial force disappears, the spring elastically expands and pushes the cartridges abruptly to their original position, as a result, they are skewed so that the cartridges do not dangle like in the rattle it is necessary to make teeth on the inner surface of the store, and in the pusher of the cartridges install the so-called "dog," squeeze, (approximately as in a winch) and then the cartridges will always remain in place when the magazine hits and shakes.
  36. APASUS
    APASUS 8 January 2021 16: 54
    0
    So the Americans, in my opinion, have already solved the issue of supplying machine guns
    1. agond
      agond 10 January 2021 17: 02
      0
      Quote: APASUS
      So the Americans, in my opinion, have already solved the issue of supplying machine guns

      On your video there is a belt feed of a machine gun, and on that video, two experts demonstrate the shortcomings of multi-threaded stores, moreover, there are already 3 springs in an American store !!!, and any store will go crazy from a shock !!! ,