Unmanned "swarms" prepare for battle

This bell is ringing for you.
Ernest Hemingway

Weapons of mass destruction

Swarm Expert drones (and countering them) Zach Cullenborn believes that the US should formally take the position that large swarms of autonomous lethal drones should be considered as weapon of mass destruction (WMD):

"A swarm with 10 or more armed drones should be classified as a weapon of mass destruction."

It is appropriate to recall here that nuclear weapons are also among the types of WMD. And the question of its use in response (or to the threat of the use of weapons of mass destruction by the "other side") is not just "discussed" in the United States, but implemented at the level of operational planning.

According to Isaac Kaminer, professor of engineering at the Naval Graduate School fleet U.S.:

"Attacks from large-scale hostile swarms with hundreds or thousands of drones are already an imminent threat."

In 2016, Isaac Kaminer worked on the development of tactics for protecting a “valuable naval asset” (aircraft carrier) from a swarm of small unmanned boats. This is a real threat. Iran has long been working on the tactics of groups of small speed boats against large warships (here is the hasty use of such boats by the Houthis). At the same time, high-speed boats (including unmanned boats) can be supplemented with groups (swarms) of air and underwater drones.

Self-managed threat

Usually modern Drones controlled remotely by people (and even in automatic mode, their work is usually controlled by the operator). However, this becomes impossible with a large number of drones, both due to a lack of operators and due to bandwidth limitations of communication channels. Instead, the "swarm" will have to largely control and manage itself.

It is obvious that the development of effective algorithms and tactics for group use (solving real problems) is a very nontrivial task. And they are very actively working on this abroad.

2017 year. The United States Naval Academy wins a three-day tournament over the skies over Camp Roberts over the United States Military Academy and the United States Air Force Academy in a DARPA experiment aimed at developing innovative tactics for large groups of unmanned aerial vehicles as part of the Academies Swarm Challenge.

The tournament was preceded by 8-month intensive preparation work. In this short period of time, DARPA has developed, manufactured and tested its own communication networks and various real-time data visualization systems designed to simultaneously track dozens of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

Highly autonomous battles

Timothy Chang, DARPA UAV Swarm Program Manager, said:

“The cadets developed innovative swarm tactics for these highly autonomous battles and demonstrated them in experiments. It was a phenomenal success. One of the most exciting results of this was "the opening of the eyes and imagination" - not only of the cadets of the academies, not only of DARPA researchers, but also of the high-ranking military commanders and UAV operators who were present. "

What this smart girl demonstrates is obvious. Tomorrow our UAVs will attack this way.

Prior to the competition, no team flew more than four UAVs at the same time. On the first day, the rival teams increased this number to 20 UAVs. Two days later, 60 UAVs participated (25 to 25 - teams of competitors, and five additional UAVs for each team circled in reserve).

In the first game (April 23), the Air Force defeated the army 58–30 in a 20 vs 20 UAV battle. Moreover, at first, the army seized the initiative and took the lead, but the Air Force's ability to quickly assemble a larger swarm of UAVs and effectively control it turned out to be a decisive factor in the final victory of the Air Force team.

Monday, April 24: The Navy defeated the Army.

Tuesday 25 April The United States Navy defeated the Air Force 86-81 in a tough match in which the championship was changed four times before the allotted time ran out. Wherein the large number of UAVs in the air pushed the experimental network infrastructure to the limit and made it difficult for both groups to send commands and update swarm tactics.

The victory of the Navy team was not accidental. Since it was the US Navy that was on the "spearhead" of studying the issues of the combat use of "swarms" (and countering them). And it started back in the Cold War (more on that below).

On April 16, 2015, the US Navy's Office of Naval Research announced that over the past month it has conducted demonstrations of swarming unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) as part of the Low-Cost UAV Swarming Technology (LOCUST) program, which is developing technology for rapid launch of unmanned aerial vehicles for suppression and destruction of opponents.

The tests were carried out with UAV Coyote, which have the ability to carry different payloads depending on the tasks performed. And among them was a group flight, in which nine UAVs were successfully synchronized and performed the flight (and missions) in a group completely autonomously. Swarming technology allows drones to communicate and spatially control each other, controlling their swarms with minimal human guidance. This reduces the load on both communication channels and the operator. And it is key to practical and effective group drone tactics.

In the final series of experiments at the Yuma test site, Arizona, 40 Coyote UAVs were launched in a salvo (in 31 seconds) with a group execution of the tasks being solved.

Head of the Naval Research Directorate Program Mastroianni said:

"There has never been such a level of autonomous swarm flight."

Swarm vs swarm

That is, in 2015, the US Navy reached the "swarm" level of about 30 UAVs.

Here it will be very appropriate to recall our operational anti-ship missile system (ASM) with a "swarm" of 24 autonomous (from the launch vehicle after launch), but interacting with each other, UAV-ASM, collectively solving the most difficult task of defeating enemy ship formations (incl. including aircraft carrier groups). This is in the scientific organizations of the Navy and the defense industry began to develop in the late 60s. centuries have passed. And they successfully completed this development in the early 80s. That is, once it was we who were in the leading positions in these issues, far ahead of the rest of the world.

Accordingly, for the US Navy since the 70s. the problem of fighting the "swarms" of our anti-ship missiles ON was extremely acute. And they actively studied this. And now they are far ahead of us.

December 2015. The US Navy is purchasing 100 unmanned aerial vehicles for swarm versus swarm exercises. DARPA is also connected here with the conduct of research tests in 2017 - competitions of academy teams.

"Gremlins"

November 2019. The first flight tests of the X-61A multipurpose drones were carried out under the Gremlins program for the massive use of UAVs dropped from transport aircraft against air defense systems (and other enemy targets). UAV X-61A can reach a maximum speed of 0,8M. The flight duration reaches 3 hours, and the range is up to 900 km.

October 2016, at a training ground in California, three US Air Force F / A-18E / F Super Hornets fired 103 Perdix micro-UAVs in a short period of time. The idea for the project was born to students at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 2011. At first everything was "peaceful and humane." The students launched atmospheric exploration drones from balloons. And then the military came from the Air Force and they liked it.

China and Iran

Americans are not alone in this. Their main geopolitical adversary China is “breathing in their backs”. Moreover, even Iran has already conducted research exercises with the simultaneous use of dozens of different types of drones.

China. Theory (research of "swarms"). And practice is a pre-production model of a combat vehicle with a "swarm" of UAVs.

Project "Flock-93"

Alas, the fact that this real (in the sense of real practical work, and not “naked theorizing”) part was shown in our country, evokes emotions of the “Argentina-Jamaica” level. Just to quote here it is:

26.06.2019/XNUMX/XNUMX, the Ministry of Defense showed a flock of drones, which impossible to knock down... The new development is capable of "Drive crazy" any air defense. Experts of the military innovative technopolis "Era" have developed an unmanned combat complex "Staya-93", which allows using drone fleets in the same ranks. The prototypes and tactics of application were presented by the military developers at the military-technical forum in the Patriot park near Moscow. The Flock-93 project provides for the simultaneous use of an unlimited number of small drones in a strict or scattered formation. The complex is designed to perform a wide variety of tasks: both military and civilian. In the future, the "Staya" complex can be used for the delivery of goods in hard-to-reach areas, for monitoring the border zone and protecting industrial facilities. Small-sized drones are capable of landing on a site without infrastructure and delivering cargo anywhere.
This complex is completely automatic. If the Chinese and American counterparts are controlled by the operator, then the drones included in the "Flock" squadron are programmed in advance and operate autonomously. According to experts from the Ministry of Defense, this tactic of use excludes the possibility of destroying drones using electronic warfare: “There is no signal. This means that there is simply nothing to drown out, ”experts say.
The tactics of using the "Flock" complex in combat conditions provides for the interchangeability of drones: the place of the retired in the ranks is immediately taken by another. In the event of an attack using air defense systems, the drones scatter and continue to operate in a new formation.

"Designed" (in quotes) apparently for the "flock" delivery of packs of cigarettes to "hard-to-reach areas" UAV SOM-93 (with a probability of 0,9999 - "constructor" with "Ali Express"). Photo: Sergey Valchenko

Comment on "this creative" - ​​thank you (the most "juicy" - highlighted). I will only note that the aforementioned “flock” exists only in the form of a “cartoon” presentation. And the proposed salaries for the "creative developers" of the "innovation center" of the RF Ministry of Defense "Era" are less than 50 thousand rubles. In addition, there are good reasons to doubt that at least one (of any subject) development (ie design and development work) was actually carried out in the “innovation center” of the RF Ministry of Defense “Era”. Apparently, "the teleport is invented" (for instant teleportation of a UAV in order to immediately replace one drone with another).

Just a disaster

The conclusions for us here will be extremely harsh. If on the technical side, our lag is small (with relative well-being with communications, aerodynamics, electric motors, we have serious problems with stabilized optics, thermal imagers, piston engines and batteries), then on the organizational side it is catastrophic.

Yes, in recent years, “our DARPA” (FPI) has “roused itself” and launched a real and necessary work in this direction. But at the national level, we just have a disaster:

1. Long-term and hardened decision-making system for new developments. (Even with a positive decision on a new topic, inclusion in the plan of promising works "in two years").

2. An extended and ineffective system for the development and approval of tactical and technical assignments (TTZ) for new work. Moreover, the presence on them of the "highest approving signature" in no way guarantees the quality of such a TTZ. Quite the opposite. Today, high-quality TTZ has become a rarity. (And it is usually performed by the performers themselves, and not by "those who are supposed to").

3. Contractual system, excluding real comparative tests.

4. Often outright "development" of the received state funds. Instead of betting on the result. (The topic of certain works of the Ministry of Industry and Trade on robotics can cause not even bewilderment, but "violent emotions").

5. Often, deliberately excessive and unreasonable requirements, resulting in military products (MPN). Moreover (and also to the PMN) for the so-called "right organizations" and "respected people" can say goodbye to everyone and everything.

6. Often inadequate certification requirements. Starting from obtaining licenses for development and ending with an actually impracticable (in full) regulatory framework for their implementation.

7. An expensive method of price formation, which practically excludes the Ministry of Defense receiving products at a low cost.

90 kg per chip

"Anecdotal story... One of the enterprises produced a kind of armored cover at an exorbitant cost. It turned out that a product weighing 10 kg was milled from a workpiece weighing 100 kg. And 90 kg of steel went into shavings. But the most modern CNC machines were involved. Previously, such covers were stamped from a sheet of armor, like dumplings. Now they use super machines and super technologies. Thus, it is absolutely legal to "stretch" any price. "

And do not rush to condemn the director of this enterprise for this. For he needs to somehow pay the workers, repair equipment, the roof. In the end, to have a "stash" for the future, and just give loans (for new machines).

All this is by no means a "secret." Several years ago, at the last public conference on robotics of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the representatives of development organizations (including high-ranking ones) simply “bubbled” everything inside. And very harsh words were openly sounded not even on the sidelines or during discussions, but directly from the stands. There were also voiced assurances of understanding of the problems from senior leaders. Only now something has changed only for the worse.

Sabotage as a concern

Another reason arose, which, alas, cannot be said directly in the media in public. Almost all domestic developers literally "howled" from it. (But openly - only in the "smoking rooms". God forbid, to say about it out loud - "ruin the relationship with the customer"). And not only robotics, but also many "flying", "driving" and "floating".

Because of the dramatically increased not only the cost of development (excluding the possibility of development and production for the Ministry of Defense, for example, massive cheap UAVs and the formation of large "networks" and "swarms"), but also time (this makes it extremely difficult to conduct tests).

The reason behind which the commercial interests of certain organizations are clearly visible (of course, all this is done under the "sauce" of "concern for the Motherland", "the enemies surround", "we still need to strain and increase vigilance", etc.).

At the same time, our UAVs fought back (in the face of tough opposition) without such "additional care" successfully in Syria and in a number of other countries. Now they are actually “outlawed”.

The “price tag” indicated in the west for mass UAVs (of the order of 10–20 thousand dollars or less) is close to that for our ATGMs (for which the requirements are worked out and are reasonable).

The problem is that we have “some special requirements” for UAVs, with which one can simply forget about such low prices. So, our "battle swarms" will not be?

Our "battle swarms" will not be

Let me emphasize, not for technical, but purely organizational reasons.

In any case, until all the existing organizational chaos in our country is rigidly and objectively exposed and resolved (with the formation of a normal sound development system and requirements for them). But for this to happen, it is necessary to "sound the alarm" to all those involved: managers, designers, engineers. Up to the mass appeal to the "relevant authorities".

For this "additional concern" is no longer even sabotage, but a real sabotage against promising domestic robotic systems (and many other types of weapons and military equipment).

However, there are those who believe that “everything is good and fine” and “nothing needs to be changed”. Moreover, it is actively imposed through the media.

Popular prints

Here is the following quote from a well-known Russian "expert" (in quotation marks):

“The unmanned attack aircraft TAI Aksungur, presented by some media as the“ killer ”of our T-72 and T-90, can take on board long-range cruise missile Roketsan SOM. The weight of its warhead is 230 kg. This more than serious warhead is capable of penetrating armor with a high probability. tank.
But to destroy their company, as the media enthusiastically write, is unlikely. The reason for this is very commonplace. Analysis of videos regularly posted on the Internet by the Turkish Ministry of Defense from different conflict zones shows that drones are fighting against single, often unprotected targets. The Osa air defense systems also do not work. There is no need to talk about tanks and other armored vehicles: they either stand or not quickly go somewhere.
Electronic warfare is what will globally make it impossible for the massive use of shock drones. What about the tanks? In general, everything will be the same with them. "Old" T-72, brought to the level of T-72B3 during the modernization, have "all-rakur protection" from weapons... There is no need to talk about the T-90 and its most modern modification T-90MS, the newest T-14 "Armata". For them, this is an axiom, supported also by the possibility of using smoke-metal charges, covering the battlefield for kilometers with a curtain impenetrable for optical means, under which it is almost impossible to find vehicles.

Here "everything is fine": a 230 kg warhead on the tank, and blind faith in the absolute effectiveness of electronic warfare against enemy UAVs (and for some reason our UAVs "heroically hold" the enemy's electronic warfare), and "all-aspect" and "impenetrable" defense of Russian tanks, and "kilometers of impenetrable interference" from smoke grenade launchers. And all this "popular nonsense" was not published "somewhere in the yellow press", and in TASS.

Songs about Karabakh

Another “expert on the popular print shop” about Karabakh:

The share of the kamikaze UAV has only a few targets hit. Analysis of the losses of the Armenian Armed Forces shows that the UAVs did not cope with their task. Armenian S-300s continue to function. However, like "Smerchi", "Elbrus" and "Tochki", which continue to strike at the territory of Azerbaijan.
The work of the lighter SkyStriker and Orbiter did not make it to the official Azerbaijani video at all. However, such a result is quite expected. Drones with small warheads of 3-5 kg ​​cannot inflict significant damage even on lightly armored combat vehicles. Not to mention tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers.
Judging by the available information, the main striking force of Azerbaijan was a bunch of Bayktar drones with guided missile systems, as well as artillery. On the official videos of the Azerbaijani military department you can well see how missiles fly up to targets, and sometimes - artillery shells... It seems that Baku is actively using adjustable artillery ammunition. This version is supported by videos with particularly accurate hits of single artillery shells in field fortifications, as well as in armored vehicles. The effectiveness of such strikes is very high.
Earlier, Azerbaijan purchased modern self-propelled gun mounts 2S19M1 "MSTA" from Russia. therefore It is not excluded that recently Baku purchased additional Krasnopol corrected ammunition for them. Moreover, the export version of this projectile is one of the most modern in the world and has unique characteristics. To destroy mobile objects - tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, self-propelled gun mounts, MLRS and air defense systems - the Azerbaijani military use Spike guided missiles of the ER and NLOS models.
There is still no reliable confirmation of the use of small-sized guided munitions from the Bayktar. It should be noted that the Azerbaijani Bayktar have Turkish guided ammunition on board. In particular, in the photo of the drone shot down by the Armenian air defense on October 20, you can see two MAM-L. Most likely, the Armed Forces of Azerbaijan are well aware of the low power of Turkish corrected ammunition, therefore, they are used extremely limitedly. Bombs are hung under the drones, most likely just in case.
At first glance, Azerbaijani drones demonstrate unique combat capabilities. Already we can safely talk about a new unmanned revolution in military affairs. But this is only at first glance.
The stories about the unique capabilities of kamikaze drones were too optimistic. So far, these products account for an insignificant percentage of the destroyed Armenian equipment and personnel. So it's too early to trumpet about unmanned swarms sweeping away everything in their path.
So far, the most effective Azerbaijani military tool is the Bayktar UAV, which directs artillery and guided missiles at targets. As in the case of Idlib, Turkish drones hang over the front line and tactical rear, knocking out targets, disrupting Armenian attacks and isolating defense areas. But in reality, the possibilities of such a scheme are limited. They are determined by the firing range of Spike missiles and artillery systems - and this is only a few tens of kilometers.
Therefore, the Azerbaijani military cannot fight at the operational level with the transfer of Armenian reserves. To do this, you need to use the already full Aviation and deliver massive strikes against the retreating columns. But Baku cannot use aviation - the Armenian S-300s have not yet been suppressed. therefore the Azerbaijani offensive is, in general, difficult. Every time the Armenian command manages to accumulate the forces necessary for a counterattack in the breakthrough sector. Although such strikes could not turn the tide, they strongly slow down the Azerbaijani offensive.

In short, if anyone did not know, then, according to our "cheap fighters of the information front", Armenian S-300 and Azerbaijani Krasnopolis won in Karabakh ...

The article itself was published in the "Independent Military Review", and its author - Ramm from Izvestia. The only trouble is that such popular descriptions influence the opinion of the political leadership ...

And the reality is different. Here is a quote from the military journalist V. Shurygin:

“I watched videos of unmanned aerial vehicles from Karabakh on the Turkish Haber Global channel for almost an hour. It's just trash! An ordinary carnage. Not dozens - hundreds of attacks! Moreover, there are no longer any significant objects - command post, warehouses, artillery positions and tanks with trucks. Now the hunt goes for groups of three to five soldiers. Complete air supremacy. There were hundreds of deaths just for this one hour viewing! In fact, this is a real air terror ...

And tomorrow

This is how things are going with us now.

And tomorrow they will attack us. But we will have nothing to answer.

Comments

[Mordvin 3]

emotions of the level "Argentina-Jamaica".

Russia-Serbia ... Well, at least they did not come to shame at night ...

[Civil]

And tomorrow
This is how things are going with us now.
And tomorrow they will attack us. But we will have nothing to answer.

The conflict over Karabakh should direct the state machine towards the "circle of model airplane builders" as one deputy chief of the RF General Staff used to say about the UAV.
But what do you expect from tired, well-settled elderly people. They would now write memoirs, take care of the garden.

[Snail N9]

Yes, this is true, here on the forum there are a lot of * star-chasers "who, with aggression, take the axiom that is already understandable even for schoolchildren, the battlefield will soon be occupied by drones and robotic complexes. like something from computer games and the distant future.It is impossible to convince them, you see, they have some kind of combat experience ... I agree - experience may be, but past wars ... The world is changing rapidly, and what literally yesterday seemed like a distant fantasy, it has already come into our reality and has begun to determine our future.Failure to understand this will lead to a new one on June 22, 1941, when thousands of our tanks and aircraft instantly burned up in the fire of war ... and without much result.

[Ivan K]

You are absolutely right. The trouble is, now you can't put the militia under a rifle and you can't drive them to slaughter, they just won't get to slaughter.

[Tatyana]

A very good analytical article on the most pressing issue - the development of unmanned weapons in the world and in our country!
At the same time, the war in Nagorno-Karabakh sharpened the existing problems in this issue even more.

The nature of future world wars after WWII is not just changing, but has already changed.
Now the historical situation in the world resembles the eve of the beginning of WWII - 1938.
In fact UAVs are the result of a scientific and technological revolution in weapons.
For example, it’s the same as if Budyonny with the Red Army men on horseback would fight against tanks and aircraft.
At one time, Stalin understood this perfectly and prepared the USSR and the Soviet people for the inevitable Second World War in technical and personnel terms.

I have been talking with concern for a long time about the importance of precision weapons and their delivery vehicles, including UAVs, in current wars.
I already wrote that, unfortunately, even from a MARKETING point of view on the global arms sales market it seems like in the field of MASS production of UAVs, Russia still clearly lags behind other countries - such as the USA, Israel, China, etc.
Of course, I could be wrong about this, but nevertheless, it seems that this is exactly the case. For this can be judged even by the fact that the Russian Federation sells anything from weapons abroad, but not mobile UAVs. For I have not heard anything about the sale of Russian UAVs abroad.
And this, by the way, is an indirect MARKETING indicator that there is a problem with the production of UAVs in the Russian military-industrial complex. Which one, exactly? Here's the question.
And the author analytically on this question formulates this problem.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Tatiana

that there is a problem with the production of UAVs in the Russian military-industrial complex. Which one, exactly?

Degradation of the military and political leadership. Everything else is solvable technical problems.
Here is a UAV analogue of Harop. Flying sample 2005

In 2014, the Sukhoi Design Bureau announced the Zond-1 UAV project and its version of the Zond-2 early-range radar detection (AWACS) HALE class with a wingspan of 35 meters, a flight height of up to 16 kilometers and a flight duration of up to 24 hours. Two AI-222-25 turbojet engines (TRD), used on the Yak-130 training aircraft, were supposed to be used as engines.
There was also a 20-ton shock variant of the "Zond-3"

All these projects are realizable within realistic terms and budgets.
Here is the conversation of the UAV developer (the host is terrible, but the guest is interesting)

[Leeds]

Quote: Snail N9

Yes, this is true, here on the forum there are a lot of * star-chasers "who, with aggression, take the axiom that is already understandable even for schoolchildren, the battlefield will soon be occupied by drones and robotic complexes. like something from computer games and the distant future.It is impossible to convince them, you see, they have some kind of combat experience ... I agree - experience may be, but past wars ... The world is changing rapidly, and what literally yesterday seemed like a distant fantasy, it has already come into our reality and has begun to determine our future.Failure to understand this will lead to a new one on June 22, 1941, when thousands of our tanks and aircraft instantly burned up in the fire of war ... and without much result.

Well, they are still preparing to fight with little blood on foreign territory. Maybe at the same time in China to purchase drones and SUs for the next local conflict. In parallel, disassemble, copy, scratch their heads.

[Vadim237]

Even before that, they sent from the use of air defense systems in Syria - now they are creating mini missiles for new Shells and Thors to destroy the same UAVs. And the means of waiting for the detection of such devices, Russia has the same Casta Gamma and Podlet radars.

[Lt. Air Force stock]

And what's the point? All these Shells C1 and Torah have radio command guidance, and the same Tor-M2U can simultaneously fire only 4 targets, such a number of channels. Even if we take, for example, a group of 12 Tor-M2U launchers, this is the simultaneous shelling of 48 targets, although 192 missiles on launchers (16 on each), that is, if we launch a swarm of loitering ammunition, say 200 pieces, they will destroy the Torah and the troops they cover.

Conclusion: we need missiles with guidance heads (radar + optical) and increase the number of missiles on the launcher.

[vadimtt]

Aircraft modellers got their hands off with certification and a ban on flying full-fledged drones. Now there will be no Kulibins en masse, except in a piece quantity, which is clearly insufficient. Yes, and those will be cleaned up by Boeings and Airbasy (allegorically). But we still need to find programmers, young and not blinkered, who are already deeply involved in the topic of "genetic and neural network algorithms" and who read "game theory" in their free time.

[Egor53]

"According to Isaac Kaminer, professor of engineering at the US Navy Graduate School,"

"Professor of Engineering" is bullshit. Isaac only and suitable.

[akims]

Here, apparently, is an incorrect translation. This refers to the direction of research in graduate school. And system engineering refers to automation. What we used to call ACS TP.

[vadim dok]

This nonsense is suitable for the author and his translator! And for "Isaac" the word professor is suitable!

[eklmn]

Is that clear?
Isaac Kaminer
Professor, Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering, Naval Postgraduate School "

[Olddetractor]

This bell rings on its own)
Everything is heaped up, swarms, Western superiority, popular information warriors ... and suddenly the reality is the revelations of a journalist who watched videos of drone operation on a Turkish channel for almost an hour. Complete air supremacy! Tomorrow they will be with us! What is there to comment on? Let's write the truth: the topic of death rays and various gases there that can be let out by these swarms of drones is not disclosed in the article at all

[Lech from Android.]

What is there to comment on?

Like what ... strike on the command post of the swarm operators with a nuclear warhead.
And I wonder if you use weapons in the flight zone of the swarm of EMP, what will be the result?

[Zorro21]

Quote: Lech from Android.

MI weapon what will be the result?

They will just light up and shoot down fireworks on the ground. The main thing is that there was no electronics nearby.

[Vita vko]

Quote: Imobile

This is a joke? Airplanes use the same electronics

In manned aviation, lightning protection systems are used. In fact, this is shielding the main nodes and all wiring. At the same time, these systems do not save from overload and burnout of the incoming cascades of transceiver devices and navigation. Naturally, the basic human piloting systems are preserved.
With a UAV, this will not work. Optoelectronic systems, navigation systems, communication systems fail by default as a result of a lightning strike or the use of EMP weapons.

Quote: Imobile

Why do we need air defense now? And the planes?

Effective range of EMP weapons up to 20, maximum up to 50 km. Moreover, finding your electronics in the near field for elementary target designation is extremely problematic. Therefore, EMP generators - vircators, if installed, are not yet cruise missiles. On ground vehicles, such powers pierce even a power cable if it does not have special protection.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Olddetractor

Let's write the truth: the topic of death rays and various gases that can be let out by these swarms of drones is not disclosed in the article at all

And also the theme of the development and use of "electronic" microbes and viruses, both against UAVs, and vice versa!

[Kart]

The whole article is only for what would once again be qualified to shout "unsuccessfully".
If we throw away the mountains of near-technical proposals, this will remain - "the Americans defeated us again, but they again stole everything from us."
Apparently, the old simplified irrigation scheme for the country no longer works. I have to compose the footcloths of the text.

[Odysseus]

The author described the threat, the state of affairs in our country and well described the organizational and economic reasons why it is impossible to change this state of affairs.
However, the organization of economic and production activities is carried out by the executive branch of the Russian Federation under the general leadership of the President of the Russian Federation. The author speaks of some kind of sabotage or even sabotage.
However, the question arises, who is our saboteur? Mishustin? Putin? And if there are saboteurs in the government, where is the author going to turn to - to the saboteurs themselves?
Or is there a group of saboteurs in the government, but there is also a group of honest patriots? How, then, can we separate one from the other?
The problem is clear, but the conclusions from it are vague ...

[Lech from Android.]

However, the question arises, who is our saboteur? Mishustin? Putin?

One former tax officer, the second former colonel of the special services ... they are not techies ... technical problems and visions are unknown to them.

[Woodman]

Quote: Lech from Android.

they are not techies ... technical problems and visions are unknown to them.

In general, Stalin had a spiritual education ... So why now call the priests "to the kingdom"?

[pmkemcity]

They (drones) are simply afraid of our dudes - In Skolkovo, they learned to control a swarm of drones with a wave of their hand:

[Pessimist22]

We were told that we are rapidly moving forward and we have a lot that has no analogues in the world, but it turned out that we were significantly behind in the rapid movement.

[Kart]

We really have a lot that has no analogues in the world. And we are, indeed, moving forward.
Unexpectedly, right?

[Vadim237]

These swarms need a cheaper answer with rapid-fire anti-aircraft turrets with TV cameras and radar - the same Tunguska as an improved version with a large ammunition load and automated control in both self-propelled and towed versions.

[Boris Chernikov]

in what exactly? the only thing lagging behind is in the procurement of drone uavs and the first delivery was in April + kamikaze drones .. but here they just did not buy .. yet.

[Alien From]

The future has already arrived, while we are scratching our turnips, the West has been mastering and mastering the production of UAVs for a long time ....... thanks to the efficient ones!

[rocket757]

Can such attack systems be called weapons of the poor ???

[OgnennyiKotik]

Of course not. Development, production and operation are comparable to manned aircraft. Not to be confused with drones converted into kamikaze from aliexpress.

[rocket757]

I do not confuse, I ASK.
And so, in fact ... over time, development, other constituents, will "go out to the masses." All these are not vigorous matters, which are limited by complex, expensive technology, high production costs.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: rocket757

All these are not vigorous matters, which are limited by complex, expensive technology, high production costs.

Normal drones (not toys from the Swarm Challenge) will require normal engines, sensors, weapons. These are all complex technologies. Not to mention the fact that the hypothetical swarms will require a very complex combat system.

[rocket757]

Much complex, over time it becomes much easier and more accessible, of course, if developers and manufacturers do not come up with their own secret under lock and key. But as practice shows, it is not the gods who burn the pots, there are craftsmen who bypass all sorts of prohibitions, secrets, in one way or another .... over time.

[The eye of the crying]

If we take, for example, jet aircraft, how much have the Iranian and Korean craftsmen achieved? And so - of course, the complex becomes more accessible, this is obvious.

[rocket757]

For big projects, you need a lot more than just money and a team of enthusiasts. There has already been a discussion on a similar topic.
Unmanned aerial vehicles, even a swarm, are simpler and less expensive than creating at least a good jet engine. There is no talk about a full-fledged plane.
Of course, talented ones are needed ... yes, there are many who are needed, but this is no longer such a piece "product" as a talented aircraft designer.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: rocket757

Unmanned aerial vehicles, even a swarm, are simpler and less expensive than creating at least a good jet engine.

Why? A normal drone, not a flying target, is actually a modern combat aircraft. Not to mention the fact that they work in a flock ("swarm" is a bad term for large UAVs), not to mention the infrastructure to support their use.

[rocket757]

Drones, like airplanes, are different .... it is unlikely that the "poor" for the swarm will want "reapers", something like that. Simpler, technique, will cost.

[The eye of the crying]

But why do we need a swarm of small drones?

[rocket757]

If a small drone will "bring" 50 -100 gr into your window. BB and bang ... even if a quarter of the swarm will fly, it won't seem a little to anyone!
And this is no longer a fantasy.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: rocket757

If a small drone will "bring" 50 -100 gr into your window. BB and bangs ...

First, the swarm is not needed for this; secondly, we are talking about war. not terrorism.

[rocket757]

Quote: Eye of the Crying

First, the swarm is not needed for this; secondly, we are talking about war. not terrorism.

And not pof will be the one who was blown up, that no one declared war on him ... he just turned out to be a desirable target for terrorists or just bandits ???
Then, the topic is about drones, swarms, and who can use them and for what purpose ... there will be no fundamental difference for the dead.
By the way, we are talking about swarms precisely because for existing air defense systems, this can become a problem.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: rocket757

And it will not be pof to the one who was blown up, that no one declared war on him

But pof, what he doesn’t care about.

Quote: rocket757

the topic is about drones, swarms, and who will be able to use them and for what purpose

The question is what they can do.

[rocket757]

And they will be able, tomorrow, more than today!
The technology is not so complicated and costly, but the same "specialists" will be trained on computer shooters ...

[dzvero]

The system is not the same. UAVs of the "craft aircraft circle" type with "local" control - definitely, yes. For the price of one helicopter, you get a dozen UAVs with comparable capabilities. But UAVs with control via satellite communication channels and with "their own intelligence" are within the power of only a limited number of countries. The price of American global hawks and rippers is at the level of the F-35.

[rocket757]

So far, the price of the question, a little more opportunities for the "poor" .... I suppose that the Chinese friends will work on this and the price will change significantly. Over time, of course.

[bairat]

Okay, electronics has stepped far forward, hopelessly lagged behind. But piston engines, what's the problem with them? Any specialized plant will master and will rivet them in hundreds and thousands a month. It's the same with gliders. While we are buying electronic filling in China, we are on the same side of the barricades. I see no obstacles, just to deal with all these leeches stuck to the military budget.

[Reviews]

Quote: bairat

piston engines, what's the problem with them?

The fact that it is easier for us to design a gas turbine engine with 10 tons of thrust than a PD with 50 hp: The USSR has not been involved in this segment since the 1950s. and the ex-USSR has long lost all competence. We have nothing but the ancient AI-14 family.

Any specialized plant

There is no such.

in China, we are on the same side of the barricades.

Different.

just deal with all these leeches stuck to the military budget.

And here is the answer. "Who will plant him, he's a monument ?!"

[rocket757]

Quote: Avis

The fact that it is easier for us to design a gas turbine engine for 10 tons of thrust,

By the way, I heard just such an opinion from serious experts!
The word COMPETENCE contains a lot of technical, organizational and other aspects ...
Although, if you do not start doing, nothing will work!
But, it's a commercial thing !!! The plant, production was established, and where, then, to sell the products? At first, the quality and price indicators are unlikely to be "pleasant" ....

[Reviews]

Quote: rocket757

The word COMPETENCE contains a lot of technical, organizational and other aspects ...

Yes.

Although, if you do not start doing, nothing will work!

It is indisputable.

But, it's a commercial thing !!! The plant, production was established, and where, then, to sell the products?

Yes, here are the same light UAVs, about which there has been so much talk in recent weeks. And that is a shame: on "Altius" German RED, on "Orion" - Austrian "Rotax" ... All the ULMs on "Rotaxes" and "Lycomings" ...

At first, the quality and price indicators are unlikely to be "pleasant" ....

You have to start somewhere.

[rocket757]

We have already discussed that the application for products of good quality and normal prices will be .... you just have to work not on a leftover principle, but for the future !!!
We now have a sea of ​​imported small motor equipment !!! And it should have its own.
There is a problem ... businessmen, for the most part, do not want to invest in production HERE !!!

[Reviews]

Quote: rocket757

businessmen, for the most part, do not want to invest in production HERE !!!

Because with our state it is almost impossible. But this is already an off-topic.

[rocket757]

Quote: Avis

Because with our state it is almost impossible

This is a separate topic and from the couch, what is there and how, do not consider.

[Snail N9]

To set up the production of something high technology you need: 1-MONEY! And in Russia they are not given not to handshakes. Have you tried to get a loan of 500 million-1 billion rubles from a Russian bank (no less, because high-tech production requires such investments, and this is just the beginning)? It's impossible! Only "handshakes" and by "call" can get such a loan.
2-you need a place for this production with the necessary communications - how do you think in Russia how much MONEY and time is needed to plan, coordinate, build and register these communications?
3-you need the building itself with accompanying rooms that must go through the same procedures,
4-machines and equipment are needed, which are now not just expensive, but awesomely expensive and you can still buy them - they are not produced in Russia, but buy gimorno abroad because of the need for currency transactions and sanctions, in addition, modern equipment bought abroad requires ... software written abroad and which is constantly updated and controlled by the seller - they can turn it off at any time and you will be left with a pile of iron instead of a "digital" machine, as has happened more than once at our defense enterprises.
5-you need qualified personnel to service all this, and you will find this personnel in Russia because of the state policy in which salaries in the production sector do not exceed the salaries of sellers and janitors with an incomparable requirement for professional skills, knowledge and responsibility.
6-we need to sell products that will initially have "childhood diseases" and will be more expensive than their foreign counterparts until the production process is worked out and the series goes, that is, healthy protectionism of the state is needed, but where is it? He is not here! Unless you "shake hands" and not "vertebra".
In addition to the above, we need a bunch of things that can be described for a long time - this is stability, and well-coordinated work of suppliers and subcontractors, etc. So build, set up production in Russia. Therefore, no one undertakes this without the state "roof". And our state wants everything cheaper, but faster and without hassle for government officials. Hence the result - stagnation of production and bias towards purchases of finished products abroad - and quickly and do not need to steam with "gimoric" production ...

[rocket757]

Theoretically, sales from the couch can be imagined that everything is not simple, but there is NO practical experience of the present, so I don’t presume to judge .... just a visible result, those who have BABOSIKI do not suffer from the powers very much, but who no money ... they have "suffering" according to the list, approximately according to the one described above.

[Reviews]

Quote: Snail N9

To set up the production of something high technology you need:

A cross between the well-known and the hysterically delusional.
Go by.

[bairat]

I may not understand something about piston engines, but we have car factories with a full cycle. The power of the VAZ engine is + -100 horses, like that of the bayraktar, what is the problem not to use it? Essno to ease, remove unnecessary. Let it carry not 4 missiles, like its Turkish counterpart, but two, the main thing is to start.
About China: for a thousand years he has not attacked anyone (except for border conflicts), and is not going to. Even if it is not going now. We have a common enemy, we are situational allies.

[Reviews]

Quote: bairat

I may not understand something about piston engines, but we have car factories with a full cycle. VAZ engine power + -100 horses

That's how they think ... some. They believe that "100 times to the dacha and back, this is once to the North Pole" © Bakhvalov. So they shove VAZ shit into the Mi-34, and motorcycle ratchets into the UAV. Aviation imposes much more stringent requirements for weight, dimensions and reliability than the auto industry. In aviation, other alloys, for example. In cars, these are used only on business and premium cars.
Of course, relying on auto experience, you can build an aircraft engine (by filling a bunch of bumps and having been in a hundred dead ends), but not making a real aircraft engine out of an automobile.

[bairat]

These are all peacetime reflections. It will come to a serious aggravation, they will put both VAZ and "shit", and Gazovsky, and perhaps the UAZ will also take part. If the enemy gives time.

[Reviews]

Quote: bairat

If the enemy will give time.

Themselves and answered. Therefore, only in the peaceful and you need to "reflect". There will be no one to think about in the military.

[bairat]

I propose to start now. From simple things. Lighten the same VAZ engine and see what happens. And now, for years, they have been scratching their turnips over an unrealizable statement of work, looking for alloys.

[Reviews]

Quote: bairat

I propose to start now. From simple things. Lighten the same VAZ engine and see what happens.

I already said that I gotit was... Reread.

[bairat]

Don't overestimate your scriptures. So much so that I would advise someone to re-read them.

[Reviews]

Quote: bairat

Don't overestimate your scriptures. So much so that I would advise someone to re-read them.

Oh, well, yes - some have not even mastered the primer yet and could not even read it for the first time. Indeed, it is me - to advise them Pereto read...

[bairat]

You are a boring opponent. There is nothing to say, they have moved to the ABC book.

[Reviews]

Quote: bairat

Boring you

And I was not going to amuse you. For clowns - to the mirror.

[Mountain shooter]

Aside from the feeling of disaster ... how do the swarm's drones keep up? Do they use GPS signals? Or do they communicate with each other and coordinate the place in the formation, measuring the distance to the "neighbors"? They cannot but coordinate their places in the ranks. Roy cannot exist without it. Neither bee, nor "drone" ...
This is how such a swarm will withstand the use of EMP ammunition, which can "stun" all external drone receivers for at least a few seconds.
And further. The swarm takes up a lot of space and should be clearly visible on the locator screen. From afar. And how will it withstand, say, the impact of a volumetric explosion of ammunition? Naturally not solitary. So far, what we are seeing - colorful three-dimensional pictures in the sky - operates under the control of powerful computers and at a short distance.

[Foxmara]

Weapons against the natives. Karabakh not only was not ready for war, but also not prepared. The enemy was actively preparing and buying everything. While some were galloping in the square, others were preparing for war. Who will win?

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Aside from the feeling of disaster ... how do the swarm's drones keep up? Do they use GPS signals? Or do they communicate with each other and coordinate the place in the formation, measuring the distance to the "neighbors"? They cannot but coordinate their places in the ranks. Roy cannot exist without it. Neither bee, nor "drone" ...

They also use GPS signals, + can navigate relative to each other, + fully autonomous navigation systems are being developed.

Everything rests on the theory of probability - the larger the swarm, the less chances that everything will be "drowned out". It's like with bacteria, no matter how cool an antibiotic you make, sooner or later, one of the billions will survive and develop immunity to it.

Quote: Mountain Shooter

This is how such a swarm will withstand the use of EMP ammunition, which can "stun" all external drone receivers for at least a few seconds.

Here the question is rather about EMP ammunition. The topic is secret and unknown. What ammunition? What are their dimensions? Cost? How much will the protection against them weigh and cost? Can it be placed on drones?

Quote: Mountain Shooter

And further. The swarm takes up a lot of space and should be clearly visible on the locator screen. From afar.

The drones will not fly in a bunch, but will be scattered in space, so for the radar, the swarm is not one big target, but many small, inconspicuous ones.

Quote: Mountain Shooter

And how will it withstand, say, the impact of a volumetric explosion of ammunition? Naturally not solitary.

No, well, if it is nuclear ... And so from a volumetric explosion outside of closed volumes there is much less sense than from a HE.

Quote: Mountain Shooter

So far, what we are seeing - colorful three-dimensional pictures in the sky - operates under the control of powerful computers and at a short distance

And now we extrapolate the picture to "tomorrow", "the day after tomorrow."

I am much more worried about the fact that there is still no significant progress in the air defense, intended for battles with swarms.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: AVM

I am much more worried about the fact that there is still no significant progress in the air defense, intended for battles with swarms.

The same Turks serially supply the army with 35-mm ZSU Korkut complexes, the USA Phalanx C-RAM, and the Germans MANTIS.
It is necessary to create clouds of debris against the swarms. This requires an effective radar with an effective Combat Information and Control System, a rapid-fire cannon, and a programmable projectile.
Lasers and interceptor drones are also being developed, but this is in the future. And while the effectiveness is not clear.


Now, if he adds a radar with BIUS, programmable projectiles on BMPT, then there will be an excellent universal military air defense system (well, add MANPADS for a change) analogue of IM-SHORAD. Then the support of tanks will be full and there will be a sense of this system.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

Quote: AVM

I am much more worried about the fact that there is still no significant progress in the air defense, intended for battles with swarms.

The same Turks serially supply the army with 35-mm ZSU Korkut complexes, the USA Phalanx C-RAM, and the Germans MANTIS.
It is necessary to create clouds of debris against the swarms. This requires an effective radar with an effective Combat Information and Control System, a rapid-fire cannon, and a programmable projectile.
Lasers and interceptor drones are also being developed, but this is in the future. And while the effectiveness is not clear.


Now, if he adds a radar with BIUS, programmable projectiles on BMPT, then there will be an excellent universal military air defense system (well, add MANPADS for a change) analogue of IM-SHORAD. Then the support of tanks will be full and there will be a sense of this system.

With this I agree, I am planning an article, incl. with the examples you gave, but PMSM while UAVs are ahead of air defense.

[OgnennyiKotik]

We are pleased to read it.
I would also add the old Soviet development ZSU-37-2 "Yenisei". But the caliber is not standard, on the other hand, new programmable shells and guns are needed. By the way, the good old Shilka may come up.

[Trapp1st]

good old Shilka might do

Plus, each piece of equipment should have a personal protective equipment in the form of a KAZ covering the entire area.

[Boris Chernikov]

Well, in general, now they are working on remote detonation of 30 mm shells ... and if in the West they offer it through programming, then ours want to carry out the detonation due to the radio signal, for convenience you can quickly put on any 30 mm gun

[timokhin-aa]

well, in general, now they are working on remote detonation of 30 mm shells

Yes, everything worked out for a long time, there are shells.

and if in the West they offer it through programming, then ours want to carry out the detonation due to the radio signal - for convenience, you can quickly put on any 30 mm cannon

and again by - the programmers are developed, and stand on any 30-mm gun, as it turned out.

There are no obstacles to solving the drone problem, but you have to want to.

[Boris Chernikov]

You can put whatever you want and wherever you want .. the question is in the alteration of the machine itself .. namely the gun module .. ours are developing a module with minimal alterations .. about the solution of the problem, I agree .. and taking into account the events in Syria and Karabakh, work is underway. .. just everyone wants to be done quickly and yesterday and in large quantities) "hurray-patriotism", just the opposite ..

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: AVM

They also use GPS signals, + can navigate relative to each other, + fully autonomous navigation systems are being developed.

Their accuracy is not the same as autonomous ones. And a growing system error. And precision systems are very expensive and weigh a lot.

Quote: AVM

Here the question is rather about EMP ammunition. The topic is secret and unknown. What ammunition? What are their dimensions? Cost? How much will the protection against them weigh and cost? Can it be placed on drones?

Defense is complex. EMP ammunition initiated by an explosive explosion in the caliber of an anti-aircraft projectile within a radius of 50 meters
Jammers everything, even radio fuses. Some (closer to the epicenter) are tight, which are further away - for minutes. I think the loss of "sight and hearing" for a cloud of Drones, even for minutes, is fatal.
Well, about the location visibility. The cloud of diffuse reflectors is very visible. Thunderclouds visible? And there are no reflectors ...

[Reviews]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Thunderclouds visible? And there are no reflectors ...

There are millions of them. These are drops of water. Water reflects radio signals.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

EMP ammunition initiated from an explosive explosion in the caliber of an anti-aircraft projectile within a radius of 50 meters
Jammers everything, even radio fuses. Some (closer to the epicenter) are tight, which are further away - for minutes

I understand that it is theoretically possible to burn the radio fuse receiver. But to disable it for a few minutes (not for a short explosion time) - what is the physics of the process?

[your1970]

If we are attacked with a swarm of drones, which want to recognize weapons of mass destruction- who forbids us to start responding to other nuclear weapons of mass destruction ???

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

How do the swarm's drones keep up? Do they use GPS signals? Or do they communicate with each other and coordinate the place in the formation, measuring the distance to the "neighbors"? They cannot but coordinate their places in the ranks. Roy cannot exist without it. Neither bee, nor "drone" ...

1. First of all ... far (!) Not all the problems of the "UAV swarm" have been solved! (This means that not all questions have answers ...); 2. Secondly ... GPS signals are used ... 3. Two-way microwave radio communication is used ... other options are possible, but at the stage: "under consideration" ...;

Quote: Mountain Shooter

how such a swarm will withstand the use of EMP ammunition

1. EMP-ammunition is still not in service ... (The organizational issues of their use in the "light" of the safety of their own "electronics" have not been resolved ... we are not talking about technical "aspects" yet!); 2 Variants of electromagnetic protection of "swarms" from EMP ammunition are considered.

Quote: Mountain Shooter

The swarm takes up a lot of space and should be clearly visible on the locator screen. From afar

1. Even at the present time, UAVs are of such dimensions that they have to be equipped with internal combustion engines, theaters of war. They create problems of timely detection by radars, which are now in service ... And what will happen later?(a protective and camouflage screen based on a nanostructured ferromagnetic microwire is designed to hide from enemy reconnaissance means and to protect military equipment ...) 2. "Volumetric" explosions in the air? Well, yes .... German "geniuses" also tried in WW2 .......
EMP ammunition ... volumetric explosion is not a "wonder weapon"! Their effectiveness, for example, against air targets not confirmed in any way ... Measures of protection of "swarms" against such misfortunes are already being considered: 1. fast distribution of the "swarm" in space; 2. concentration of the "swarm" near the attacked object by "dashes" (in several stages ...); 3 Alternation of "active" flight distances with "passive" flight distances ...

[Trapp1st]

Here's how such a swarm will withstand the use of EMP ammunition

What kind of EMP ammunition? What are you talking about? Time for the Wunderwaffe? Apparently everything is really bad.

[Not_invented]

Performed a year ago work for one (dual-purpose) plant ... The plant has Soviet CNC machines with a turret for tool change. At the same time, it is not really necessary to change the tool, therefore a pribluda is installed on the machines, which informs the machine that the tool has been changed and allows you to work further. The problem was the frequent failure, and, accordingly, the need to contact the manufacturer for repairs. Came, figured out:
The boards are made by laser iron. Who knows what it is, now grabbed his head. Who does not know - I recommend asking Google and grabbing it too. The controller on the boards counted the head replacement cycles and after N cycles it simply self-destructed. Then an engineer came and for NN thousand rubles he took out the controller from the socket and put a new one. So, it all ended with the fact that after seeing my, on the knee, stuck together in 3 hours, version of the board to replace their creation, the guys offered the plant management a discount on "repair work". And they agreed. And they sent me home, saying thank you.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Not_invented

the guys offered the plant management a discount for "repair work".

The scheme is debugged, for this you can "thank you" on the back of your head in the entrance. The bosses receive a "discount" from each call, and people will come up with a new job, budgets are set, they need to be mastered.

[lucul]

Accordingly, for the US Navy since the 70s. the problem of fighting the "swarms" of our anti-ship missiles ON was extremely acute. And they actively studied this. And now they are far ahead of us.

It's not entirely clear - we were the first in the swarm, back in the 70s.

“Anecdotal story. One of the enterprises produced a kind of armored cover at an exorbitant cost. It turned out that a product weighing 10 kg was milled from a workpiece weighing 100 kg. And 90 kg of steel went into shavings. But the most modern CNC machines were involved. Previously, such covers were stamped from a sheet of armor, like dumplings. Now they use super machines and super technologies. Thus, it is absolutely legal to “stretch” any price ”.

A good example of sabotage, in order to kill the resource of machines and increase the cost.
Sabotage reaches an industrial scale, they are trying to completely duplicate the power vertical. As soon as this happens, a coup is inevitable.
A new 1937 is needed, without it we will lose.

[Kart]

Yes, you will lose, I'm sure. The coup will remain only in your heads and on the Internet.
Russia will win, and this is the main thing.

[Konnick]

The basis of any machine is the engine. In order to develop and produce UAVs, a variety of engines, piston and jet, are required, and this requires an engine-building industry. Now everything rests on the production of motors ... Armata ... Su-57 ...
We can make single copies, but mass production is no longer possible. You can make Armata worth the city's annual budget, but it's not worth sculpting them for such a price, it's better to give up right away. UAV production should be economically viable. It is still possible to restore the engine-building industry, then it will be possible to talk about modern types of weapons.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Konnick

but serial production is no longer possible.

Wipe your eyes please

[Kart]

Yes it is, duty officer. The first phrase from the manual.

[mark1]

I don’t understand (probably due to stupidity) why didn’t like the "Flock -93" complex? And for some reason I think that this is not the only development in this direction (the main thing is to develop programs, algorithms and something else ...)
And there is progress in engines for small UAVs - "Bench tests of the MGTD-150E engine have been completed" apparently for some small but fast products).
Chief, maybe it's not all gone yet?

[Jacket in stock]

Sadness, sadness and everything was gone.
It’s a pity that I don’t want to, but I believe it.

[SaLaR]

And at nass ... and at us, as always ... Through hardships ... in p ... O ...

[Jacket in stock]

And the methods of struggle are the same as they were. Everything that shoots should shoot into the sky.
Each BMP and each armored personnel carrier must become a "derivation", i.e. have suitable observation, detection and aiming devices, and ammunition must have projectiles with controlled detonation.
And you can also anti-aircraft missiles with cluster warheads, ideally with homing elements, or at least with proximity fuses. A kind of fireworks "star".

[donavi49]

Well, drones are not a pity. The new production approach is also ignored here. Another 5 years and they will be made on autonomous lines, and as many as 3 people will participate in the process - on watch at the control panel. Well, TSMC will supply at least trillions of chips. Engines are also not a problem, especially for small ones, there is an electric motor and a laptop battery.

Even without this, the direct clash of economies over who builds more drones or defensive systems is generally understandable.

And also the issue of detection. See Karabakh. Soldiers in a second or two understand that everything. Before that, they lead an ordinary life. A continuous airplane flight field, and even the power needed to detect swarms of small drones (or birds?) Is a utopia in war. Consequently, even this BMP with shells and shrapnel cassettes is not a fact that it will have time to shoot at least once.

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: donavi49

in a second or two they understand that everything. Before that, they lead an ordinary life.

And what is the problem to put your swarm of interceptor drones towards?
Moreover, they may not be disposable.
To organize a "live network" of flying TV cameras constantly hanging at an altitude of 100 m to 10 km and along the front at least a thousand km You can even use balloons, as in 1941 Moscow was covered.

[timokhin-aa]

Each BMP and each armored personnel carrier must become a "derivation", i.e. have suitable observation, detection and aiming devices, and ammunition must have projectiles with controlled detonation.

True, and it is technically feasible.

[Konnick]

Quote: Cyril G ...

Quote: Konnick

but serial production is no longer possible.

Wipe your eyes please

What branch of the capitalist economy do you work in?

[Kart]

And you, apparently, do not work in any, but dream of working in a socialist one?

[Glory1974]

our operational anti-ship missile system (ASM) with a "swarm" of 24 autonomous (from the launch vehicle after launch), but interacting with each other, UAVs-anti-ship missiles, collectively solving the most difficult task of engaging enemy ship formations (including aircraft carrier groups) ... This is in the scientific organizations of the Navy and the defense industry began to develop in the late 60s. centuries passed.

Everything new is well forgotten old.
Even before World War II, the Japanese planned to attack the aviation groupings with "swarms" of aircraft and ships. It was planned to simultaneously attack with bombers and torpedo bombers, and submarines from under the water. Several times they even succeeded with quite good results.
With the next round of progress, new swarms, new systems of counteraction. An endless fight between shield and sword ...

[Reviews]

Quote: glory1974

Everything new is well forgotten old.
More Japanese

Even earlier: slingers and archers. No matter how you cover yourself with shields, every hundredth stone will find its crack; no matter how you improve the armor, every hundredth arrow will find its joint ...

[Glory1974]

No matter how you cover yourself with shields, every hundredth stone will find its crack; No matter how you improve your armor, every hundredth arrow will find its joint.

No. You describe the action of ammunition: arrows and stones.
And we are talking about the carriers of weapons.

[iouris]

Quote: "And tomorrow they will attack us. But we will have nothing to answer." End of quote.
Horror !!! The nuclear missile power has nothing to answer.

[agond]

A UAV for a swarm does not have to be made reusable, and a disposable one is easier to make, but in general it is necessary to listen not to those who say that this is difficult to do, but to those who can and want

[Boris Chernikov]

and when they attacked in Syria in Idlib and for some reason fought back, then about this shh..it is better to be silent

[Boris Chernikov]

well, after the Turks got a pretty penny, of course we agreed ..

[timokhin-aa]

In Syria, there were completely different attacks, not the same as described in the article, when will you stop trying to hit it with your finger?

[Boris Chernikov]

Believe it or not, but I know ... the only difference is that only a few countries have real experience in countering UAVs, and oh, horror, Russia is one of them, so the methods of counteraction are known ... raid of drones .. the very "swarm" .. with the idea of ​​which everyone has begun to rush lately, because using anti-aircraft missiles is quite expensive .. that's why they are working on "nails" for the Shell, shells with dist. undermining for 30 mm guns and 57 mm ZAK Derivation is just from that epic ... At the last forum, the same Rat complex surfaced, where a complex system in the form of a microwave + laser was proposed .. and the possibility of installing Korda is mentioned .. although logically this complex is needed put on the BTR-82A above the landing-engine compartment and provide 2a72 shells with detonation .. and add the fire control system for firing .. this will be "cheap and cheerful" .. and it would be nice to remember the AP-23

The "swarm" of unmanned aerial vehicles is just one of the new threats to which you need to work out protection .. and about "They don't swarm in Russia" ... in Geoscan they know that they are not engaged in swarms, but what else?

[timokhin-aa]

Again the future tense ...

When something turns out to be in the ranks, then we'll talk. Although I admit that all technologies have been tested, they are and can quickly appear in the troops. But DO NOT APPEAR.

Destroyer drones have become a serious threat today, but the next stage is on the way. If the Turks and Israelis use them as remotely controlled ones, then the Americans are practicing the use of "salvo" attacks on such UAVs with primitive artificial intelligence. And tomorrow, instead of a dozen controlled kamikazes, there will be a hundred autonomous ones, which simply have no connection with anyone and are invulnerable to any electronic warfare systems. At American training grounds, this technique has already successfully hit targets.

You can stop them in one way - by creating and maintaining on their combat path a fragmentation field of such density that they do not pass through it. This means that the above recipes for dealing with this kind of UAV have no alternative. In five or six years, the commander of a convoy of a company tactical group will suddenly detect, in 30-40 seconds of flight time, a couple of hundred suicide drones on his armored personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles, and the Russian armed forces must now learn to repel such attacks. Russia is technically capable of preparing for this, but it needs to be done, the problem will not disappear by itself.

https://vz.ru/society/2020/11/16/1070664.html

[Boris Chernikov]

DO NOT APPEAR YET ... so it will be more correct)

[Boris Chernikov]

regarding the article ... 1) no one will buy from Israel, because it will not sell, and even having several prototypes that ALREADY fly at test ranges ... talk about Lancet-3 and KUB-blah and having a well-established scheme for the production of drones, it's strange to cut income to their producers. 2) Iran, similarly, there is no point in buying .. 3) the biggest "difficulty" is not even in balancing the drones when using a warhead, but in understanding that a 1 kg warhead is already a good warhead .. alas, but the army is used to measuring warheads in hundreds of kilograms ... which says that at one time almost no work was carried out on the creation of adjustable ammunition in caliber 50 and 100 kg ... therefore, our military heard about the fact that there will be a warhead in 1-1,5, 4 kg they will be sad .. although cumulative fragmentation NARs or RPGs have a similar warhead ... 4) In general, I repeat .. I think that the decision on the drones has already been made, just not announced. 3) about we "lagged behind for many years" ... lagged behind by a maximum of 4-2008 years, this is how much is needed for testing new types of ammunition and more massive purchases of the same Orions. It's like in 10 everyone said about "Russia was decades behind in the UAV field" .. and when, 5 years later, Russia was in second place in the world in the number of UAVs, they decided to remain silent. 23) relatively "it is necessary that each BMP could "..this of course is correct .. that is why I wrote above about the provision of parts with AP-23 modules .. in fact there is a cannon with offshore shells and optics, it is not difficult to add an MSA and adapt a XNUMX mm radio fuse, but you can you need to go to all platforms ... to trash, to trucks, to tanks ... that is. wherever there used to be a Kord machine gun, there should be such a module .. About "transfer information" .. well, in general, the current principle of "found-destroyed" or "found-transferred to the nearest air defense complex-destroyed" and so it works .. anti-aircraft gunners are constantly on exercises work off countering UAVs ... in Karabakh there was sloppiness, outdated technology, when the obsolete Osa-AK with rotten missiles were forced to fight against modern means of attack ... at first the Armenians could not, and then did not want to create an echeloned air defense system ... episodic cases of the use of those the Torahs were of course, but they were both positive and negative ...
6) such kamikaze drones should pass like ammunition, which in fact will give the result ..

[DWG1905]

The article is good, a little messy. If we replace the UAV with the T- ... tank, the SU, MIG, Tu, Il aircraft will also go. The problem is common. As a customer, the RF Ministry of Defense has practically degraded; on the one hand, on the other hand, the industry is in decline. The result is a negative synergistic effect. One of the reasons for the degradation of the customer is the separation of the ordering departments themselves from the branches and branches of the armed forces. The fight against corruption, however, but if earlier the commander-in-chief could quickly make decisions during development, now everything is bogged down in the bureaucracy. The second reason is the regulatory framework for R&D, in particular GOSTs "Systems for the development and launch of products for production", in addition to the fact that they are crooked and force the developer to produce unnecessary paper for anyone, spending on this the forces of not yet extinct qualified employees. This GOST system takes the R&D process to infinity and it is almost impossible to complete the work, not to mention the series production. It seems that it was invented for the development of the budget, to develop endlessly, to test it, and so on. Of course, this was done on the basis of Soviet GOSTs, but there was a will and a goal to make new equipment. It is necessary to abandon TTZ, and return back to TTX for the developer, this is approximately in the 50s of the last century. Do as you see fit, the main result and responsibility. Yes, and UAVs are developed and made in our country mainly large and small "Houses of pioneers" and "Bed factories", what do you want from them? It is more correct for the time being to call the UAV RPV, i.e. remotely piloted, but we will soon live to see real UAVs.

[Andre___86]

Russian air defense systems will prove to be useless in the near future. Race for s-400, s-500, s-600, etc. does not justify itself. This is preparation for the war of the 20th century. Air defense systems being introduced now will simply be overloaded with drones and will not be able to repel their attack. Even an air defense network is not a panacea.

[Kart]

Quote: Andre___86

Race for s-400, s-500, s-600, etc. does not justify itself.

Tell that to the combat aircraft manufacturers. What if they light up and start releasing minidrones instead of fighters?

[Vadim237]

Against a unified and integrated air defense system and even cover for aviation, this whole swarm is a useless waste of money, especially since they will not cause any significant damage to the country's infrastructure - they will inflict just the same bombers, fighters, bombers, cruise missiles, planning bombs, tactical missiles of the IRBM and ICBMs, and against this, the Torah of Armor was created. Buki S 350 S 400 and S 500. And against this trifle kamikaze drones and swarms of Poultry Tunguska and anti-aircraft modules.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Vadim237

Against a unified and integrated air defense system and even cover for aviation, this whole swarm is a useless waste of money, especially since they will not cause any significant damage to the country's infrastructure

Colleague, you have little idea that all the same forward bullet or shield, offensive or defense.
You have little idea of ​​what a barrage projectile means and how to deal with it.

[Boris Chernikov]

those. purchase several additional ZAKs in 57 mm caliber and update the same Armor for the possibility of using shells with distant. can not be undermined?)

[Undecim]

Drone Swarm (and Countermeasure) Expert Zach Cullenborn
For information. Drone Swarm Expert is a consultant for ABS Group, which manufactures pumps and equipment for water supply, wastewater disposal and water treatment systems.

[Max Lebedev]

The author correctly noted that our so-called "management" is stupid and does not see further than his wallet.

[Sailor]

The article is relevant, as never before, and I think that until the "fried rooster does not bite" the deadlock will not move, but it will be too late!

[xomaNN]

We would need a new generation of people associated with UAVs - from competent non-corruption customers, to open-minded scientists and designers, ... and to equipped production facilities ... Dreams? Or is it possible with decent funding?

[flicker]

Just a disaster

Another alarmist vyser.
Zircon is the best remedy for all swarms.
Ask the Israelis how many Zircons are needed for the "swarm" state to cease to exist.

[Boris Chernikov]

here is the key point in what? they want to get a drone for 20 thousand bucks ... but which one? such a drone should be both cheap, and against electronic warfare to live and fly far and a lot of things to be able to ... and taking into account the love of Americans to increase the cost. . it is unlikely that they will keep within 20 thousand ..

[flicker]

It's about war.
Therefore, the main thing is not the costs, but the DAMAGE.
Let's say an Israeli drone swarm destroys another hundred Hezbollah fighters.
And in response, let's say Israel gets hit by a hypersonic missile on Haifa, after which only memories will remain from the latter.
---
Who will get the most damage?
---
That Israel, looking at the ruins of Haifa, would be amused to think that a swarm of drones killed a couple of hundred Hezbollah fighters?

[Boris Chernikov]

it's just about the costs ... because weapons and ammunition must first be bought and then used .. Klimov in the article indicates that the Americans are about to create a cheap drone for 20 K bucks, and we have super-expensive drones ... supposedly .. in fact: 1) the Americans do not know how to use cheap weapons, so the price tag of 20K is too low and very much, 2) about the damage, I agree .. but the "experts" always create a situation based on "clean laboratory conditions" .. without taking into account the rest ..

[flicker]

it's just about costs ... because weapons and ammunition must first be bought, and then used

If you will buy weapons and ammunition, then you better not start a war (well, unless your opponent also buys)
---
Drones are good for local conflicts (such as Karabakh) or when fighting terrorists.
---
In the conflicts of states such as the United States and Russia, drones will not solve much today.
Much more important are missiles (cruise, ballistic, hypersonic), which blur the concept of front and rear and damage the rear (and drones cannot do this yet)
---
The value of drones is not in the swarm as such, but in the TECHNOLOGIES in which artificial intelligence is involved.
---
Therefore, the lag in these technologies cannot be allowed.

[Boris Chernikov]

we are talking about the scale of use .. if there are a lot of kamikaze drones, they will become a problem .. at the moment the real needs are a platoon of drone UAVs for the BTG and a company for the brigade .. in fact it is an analogue of ATGMs .. as against ATGM and RPG steel use DZ and KAZ, and they will come up with protection against them .. more precisely, the concept of protection is known: a mixture of electronic warfare, microwave, lasers, anti-aircraft missiles and shells with dist. undermining .. but while everyone buys it ... it will take a lot of time .. such drones should knock out equipment and reduce personnel losses due to remoteness + striking ammunition and fuel depots .. in principle, making a kamikaze based on modern developments is not difficult. .the cost of the product will be at the level of 1,5-3 million apiece ... taking into account that the same Krasnopol costs 3 million apiece .. this justifies the means ... but if you use them as air defense missile systems or, say, armor .. it's still cheaper than modern ATGMs.

[flicker]

talking about the scale of application .. if there are a lot of kamikaze drones, they will become a problem

Today, a swarm of kamikaze drones (no matter how many there are) are front-line weapons.
---
And the missiles hit the rear.
---
For example, Azerbaijan used a swarm of drones and rammed the positions of Armenians in Karabakh, while the Armenians hit Baku with Yars.
If, under such circumstances, Aliyev pleases the population of Azerbaijan with a victory in Karabakh, the people will tell him "that we have Karabakh, Baku is no more!"
---
Does it make sense to start a war for Karabakh, while risking losing Baku, and in fact, losing Azerbaijan?
---
All these drones (at least alone, at least swarm) UNTIL that, militarily, they give little against such states as Russia or the United States.
---
The most valuable thing in drones today is the technologies themselves (their improvement) with the help of which these drones are created.

[Boris Chernikov]

drones are just a tool ..

[flicker]

Yes, a tool with great potential.
But this tool is still weak for serious conflicts.

[Boris Chernikov]

So what's the claim? Work on "UAV swarms" is now being carried out by everyone, in Russia the same way, Klimov himself points out this). Now it is important to work out the algorithms for combat use, programs of independent work .. To create the final product in the form of a drone is not difficult for Russia now, there are developments .. About Karabakh .. That is. the Armenians bought old complexes with rotten missiles from the Jordanians .. but you need to immediately say that "Russia is the same" .. well, yes, but the fact that in addition to this, Russia has a whole family of air defense systems working at echelons and heights .. of the type it is better to remain silent .. attempts to use drones-Russia has experience, after all, they developed tactics of countering Turkish UAVs in Idlib during the assault for the Syrians ... and it turned out that if, in addition to the old complexes, deploy more modern Buki and Pantsiri, then the problems of UAVs are quite solvable ... In the same way, and they are also working on the development of cheap means of countering a large number of UAVs .. about "but they want a drone for $ 20" .. let me remind you that very often Wishlist in the United States does not work, the devices are more expensive .. And yes .. how much are the UAV from the Sting eg?

[Last centurion]

I saw on some TV channel how some commander offered to teach soldiers to shoot down drones from a Kalash. They shot down the suspended body of the drone after another drone. hanging ... in place. queues :) just a funny kindergarten. yes, in a real battle these drones will hang and wait as if they were shot down :) they will not leave a wet place from the infantry. as in videos from Karabakh. So, the battle of the natives with a developed civilization ended with the conquest of a lousy handful of Europeans in South America. And no electronic warfare systems will help against a group of drones with AI that stupidly do not need communication and gps. (And for everything else there is a starlink.)

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Last centurion

... And no electronic warfare systems will help against a group of drones with AI that stupidly do not need communication and gps.

Jeepies may not be needed, but the connection is just very necessary, otherwise how they will interact with each other. For a swarm, it is therefore a swarm, and not just a massive raid, because there is a constant connection between all the participants in the raid.

[Last centurion]

just ai does not need a connection. he can "see" a neighbor in a swarm - an elementary tensor flow is shorter in distinguishing objects visually

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Last centurion

just ai does not need a connection. he can "see" a neighbor in a swarm - elementary tensor flow

So you still have to see?
So this is the connection, no matter, visually or otherwise. If the connection is visual, then it is possible to interfere with these visual sensors.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: Last centurion

he can "see" the swarm neighbor

How many cameras do you need to see all the neighbors?

Quote: Last centurion

elementary tensor flow is shorter

TensorFlow is never rudimentary. Especially for built-in applications.

[kava61]

He will see the neighbor. and the commands how to get where to fly and bomb, where to get coordinates from, muffled the signal and he can fly back.

[kava61]

It was not drones who fought in Karabakh, but a very expensive drone, you should not confuse these two things.

[ZAV69]

Quote: Last centurion

And no electronic warfare systems will help against a group of drones with AI that stupidly do not need communication and gps. (And for everything else there is a starlink.)

In a big war, starlinks are burnt in a day, like all other satellites. And the armor will shoot at the drones and not the soldiers from the Kalash.

[evgen1221]

The Amer expert from the beginning of the article suffers from the obvious exclusivity of America and the gigantism inherent in their country. At the same time, in his statement about 10000, he is clearly lying (and 9999) of drones armed with non-understandings, why is this not WMD? Plus, with this statement, he pours straws into his country in stacks.
Drones controlled by one program (swarm) pose a threat as early as 10 pieces. At the same time, do not forget that (the swarm) is just a program (roughly on a flash drive), which means it can be easily scaled to any parameters suitable for the task (from an ant to an elephant). And who is our leader in the UAV structure, practice and application experience? States. Counter-swarm with shrapnel to meet plus rab. A ban in the UN in principle will not work, the Americans themselves will not let the Israelis, and other countries want to have such toys. A human pilot is expensive, but robots are cheaper, any 8th grader can become an operator.

[Jacket in stock]

Against a swarm, you can oppose your swarm, or rather a network. Hundreds of flying TV cameras plus several radars on drones (the lower echelons can even be tethered and, accordingly, powered from the ground) and balloons at different heights from 100 meters to 10 km. Then operational awareness will radically increase. And on those that are larger, you can even fit a cannon / rocket for quick response.

[kava61]

As long as it is being radio controlled, this whole shell is useless.

[Konnick]

Quote: Carte

And you, apparently, do not work in any, but dream of working in a socialist one?

I worked in both socialist and capitalist work. But now the work is increasingly turning into a fight against defective managers with administrator diplomas. Yes, you guessed it, I dream of working in a socialist one. And for your general development, I will say, there is a rapid degradation of the engineering corps, especially in the defense industry. When you ask a young specialist who has graduated from the Faculty of Gas Turbine Engines the types of threads and he knows only metric threads, and when asked - And what else? Says - With a small and large step ... And according to the diploma project, he cannot say the number of revolutions per minute of the turbocharger, despite the fact that the diploma grade is good, and the other grades are not lower than four.
Are there any other questions?

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: Konnick

Are there any other questions?

Is the inch thread (if you had it in mind) really qualitatively different from the metric thread?

[gsev]

Quote: Eye of the Crying

Is the inch thread (if you had it in mind) really qualitatively different from the metric thread?

For example, at your plant, you need to replace a very simple and very expensive unit on an imported machine with an independently developed very cheap domestic one. A smart engineer will look at the mounting bolts and realize that this is a cross between an inch and a metric screw. For example, the diameter is metric and the pitch is inch. Then a special screw is made on the machine and a cheap unit is fixed. If this is not done and instead of a broken imported bolt you try to screw in the Russian standard metric bolt, you can get a break in the base. At some aircraft repair enterprises in Russia about 8 years ago, workers faced such problems and successfully solved them. Leaders, effective managers, and intelligence agencies seem unaware of such problems.

[The eye of the crying]

Thanks for the example, but it does not speak of any qualitative differences. It's just that the diameter and pitch are expressed in different length units. I believe the units are indicated on the drawing. And if there is no drawing, then you still have to measure.

Quote: gsev

Leaders, effective managers, and intelligence agencies seem unaware of such problems.

The job of executives is to find smart engineers. Now, if intelligent engineers are not released, yes, a problem. But I believe that mechanical engineers do know about inch threads.

[Undecim]

Thanks for the example, but it does not speak of any qualitative differences. It's just that the diameter and pitch are expressed in different length units. I believe the units are indicated on the drawing. And if there is no drawing, then you still have to measure.
Not just pitch and diameter are expressed in different units. The sizes of the threads are different.
If the metric M6 thread has the outer diameter of the bolt - 6 mm, then the closest outer diameters of the bolt of the Whitworth BSF inch English cylindrical thread will be 5,556 mm and 6,350 mm, and the UNF inch unified cylindrical thread - 5,486 mm and 6,350 mm.
In addition, for the British, the angle of the top of the profile is 55 and 47 degrees, and for the metric and imperial American - 60 degrees.
There are nearly two dozen thread standards in use around the world.

[gsev]

Quote: Eye of the Crying

It's just that the diameter and pitch are expressed in different length units.

I don't remember exactly what was there. But it looks like a screw of the original design was made. The thread angle of the replaced screws was not 60 degrees, although the outer diameter corresponded to the metric ruler. Neither metric nor inch bolt could be used. It was prohibitively expensive to buy spare parts in the West.

I believe the units are indicated on the drawing. And if there is no drawing, then you still have to measure.

There were no drawings, I had to measure them. Without knowing the parameters of the threads and the technology of their manufacture, it would be incomprehensible what to measure and how to adjust the screw cutter and its guitar.

[gsev]

Quote: Eye of the Crying

The job of executives is to find smart engineers.

Isn't it easier to remove from production a highly paid manager-manager who does not understand anything in technology? How about hiring Ossetian or Tajik girls to transmit instructions from the owner? They will at least be more respectful and accurate in conveying information from the owner to the performers and vice versa.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: gsev

The job of executives is to find smart engineers.

Isn't it easier to remove from production a highly paid manager-manager who does not understand anything in technology?

This does not in any way negate the task of finding intelligent engineers. Let me remind you that the conversation began with a statement about the degradation of the education system.

[gsev]

Quote: Eye of the Crying

This does not in any way negate the task of finding intelligent engineers.

So far, Russia has a surplus of engineers and a shortage of managers and salespeople. A good saleswoman will not work for a salary less than $ 1000. And for any complex production there can be no ready-made engineers. It can become like this after about 3 years of work. For some time in Moscow, an Afghan acquaintance, for the sake of fun, hired sellers with only 3 higher educations.

[ZAV69]

Quote: Konnick

When you ask a young specialist who graduated from the Faculty of Gas Turbine Engines the types of threads and he only knows the metric

And in a gas turbine engine, there are no others, unless of course it is made in the USA. Why would he know? And the course of machine parts was so long ago that it was forgotten ...

[Konnick]

Quote: flicker

Just a disaster

Another alarmist vyser.
Zircon is the best remedy for all swarms.
Ask the Israelis how many Zircons are needed for the "swarm" state to cease to exist.

Do you know the charge power of an anti-ship hypersonic missile? For example, the Tomogavk makes continuous destruction of conventional civilian reinforced concrete structures within a radius of only 9 meters.

[Konnick]

Quote: Eye of the Crying

Quote: Konnick

Are there any other questions?

Is the inch thread (if you had it in mind) really qualitatively different from the metric thread?

Of course, if it is pipe, then the profile is different I didn't ask about the differential thread. That would be nagging already.

[Yuri Molchanov]

Aliluyah. The dudes who were ecstatic with the Armata finally wondered what real power could be in a bunch of small cheap drones operating on an autonomous program. It exploded at the weak point of a large piece of iron, and the expensive piece of iron is useless. It costs hundreds of millions to produce, but it can be disabled for a penny. Well, at least late than never.

[kava61]

Drones can be destroyed very easily with a single pulse of radio signal, these are just scarecrows for schoolchildren.

[kava61]

One powerful radio pulse and this whole swarm will fall to the ground without causing harm, only a person can control the aircraft and equipment with his own hands, where the radio fighters will work.

[Tektor]

Against a swarm of drones, the most effective now will be the oncoming swarm of drones, the cheapest, going to ram.

[Vadim_888]

.The Kremlin does not believe that the aggravation in Karabakh can provoke "revanchist sentiments" in Kiev on the issue of establishing control over Donbass

Intelligence does not sleep

[Alexeitch]

If intelligence does not sleep, then why did we lose Ukraine, Kyrgyzstan, Belarus, Moldova, Armenia? Now Kazakhstan is next in line. In fact, the Economic Union no longer exists, just like the CSTO. The backward ones are beaten and beaten very painfully (I. Stalin)

[Pandiurin]

Quote: Tektor

Against a swarm of drones, the most effective now will be the oncoming swarm of drones, the cheapest, going to ram.

And against a machine-gun burst, the most effective is probably an oncoming machine-gun burst.
Our bullets ram the enemy and the whole short-lived?

[Siegfried]

in fact, we do not know how things are with our electronic warfare against UAVs, I think the general staff are not the most stupid and know the full scale of the threat from UAVs to the RF Armed Forces. Perhaps we are carefully testing EW capabilities, but it would be foolish to show these capabilities completely in peacetime, because the enemy will quickly start looking for opposition. This is the direction in the area of ​​"secret weapon" whose operation we will see only at hour X, as well as everything else that is prepared for this hour. The same combat viruses, or rather algorithms for attacks on infrastructure, are also not tested by anyone so as not to merge. In any case, there is such a hope that we have developments in case of war, such as electromagnetic weapons, the destruction of satellites and electronic warfare against communications and control of UAVs.

[alexander ivanov_9]

no need to cry! and suffer

- this machine will provide

[alexander ivanov_9]

but this one will squeeze

[Alexeitch]

Satya clearly highlighted our main problem: the inability of our social system, sharpened to make a profit - no matter at what cost - by selling natural resources or robbing our own people. The existing system of power, in principle, is not able to ensure fast and high-quality decision-making and their implementation. Moreover, the effective organization of research and development and research and development, the organization of training of qualified personnel, their interest in the results of labor are not ensured either. Paid education and a backward education system have led to the fact that our level of education has shifted from the 2nd place to the 52nd. The most prepared and capable go abroad, and with the current order it is impossible to stop this. A society where in the first place is not common interests, but personal, where the meaning of life is profit at any cost, which has no common goals, in principle, is not able to effectively develop and defend itself. For Russia to be able to survive as an original civilization, it is necessary: ​​1. First of all, to abandon the materialistic worldview refuted by modern quantum physics. 2. Adopt a new ideology based on the modern scientific paradigm, which puts common interests above personal ones (we have developed a project for it). Rebuild the existing social system on its basis. 3. Introduce free universal education. 4. Create an independent financial system and block capital outflows abroad.

[andrew42]

It is somehow overlooked that the main threat of a swarm of drones for other types of weapons and hp is not at all the presence of such a "swarm". The threat will become real when the cost of such drones is optimized to the lowest possible cost level, and production becomes in-line. That's when any "advanced" air defense missiles will be about nothing. They wrote about EMP here in a funny way - "provided that their own electronics are turned off." It's funny. This is not a light switch in the room, you cannot click there. I don't see any problems with controlling a swarm of drones. Of course, a lot of "smart words" can be dragged out in modern terminology. I just remembered my graduation diploma "Controller of the common signaling channel in the Distributed control system for digital communication channels" on those. the basis of 1993. And this was when it was! When Intel20386 was not yet on sale. Now I think you can twist such a thing that you can devil and two deprive the swarm of "self-control" until the last drone is shot down. We need "air defense drones", light, massive and cheap. Let's leave the enemy's heavy high-speed drones as targets for the missile systems.

[agond]

Quote: andrew42

We need "air defense drones", light, massive and cheap

Is it possible, in principle, to create a small cheap air defense drone, because it needs a lot of things that may not be in the simplest drone from the "swarm" and the navigation system, and the system for detecting someone else's small drone, and weapons and, and some kind of minimal AI, and the operation of all this requires additional energy consumption, and obviously such an air defense drone cannot be disposable, therefore it will always be more expensive than a massive drone from an enemy swarm .. The solution to the problem must be sought in a different plane, for example, the creation of local small-sized barreled air defense systems with a short range, this is can be, for example, a double-barreled automatic canister, a din barrel with a "choke" shoots at 50-100 m, another "dispersant" barrel at 25-50 m

[3danimal]

Do you offer to re-equip soldiers with double-barreled guns?
A fly swatter is more practical and cheaper

[3danimal]

Speaking of drones and hunting for soldiers in Karabakh.
I remember that 10 years ago I played Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. And there, with a drone in the sky (and controlling it on our own), any group of 3 or more people became a convenient target (economy of missiles).
In 2010, it was still a prospect, although the same Predators flew before. And now it is becoming a daily routine for the armies of developed countries.

[Vasyok]

This bell is ringing for you.

[TANKISTONE]

Necessary! to raise new military leaders in the spirit of "Ender's Game", building on past experience.

[Paphnutius the Unforgettable]

What else can you expect from Klimov? Everything is bad and everyone will die! And with the lid, where they made 100 from 10 kg, he was already bored. This is a story from the series: one grandma said ...

[Recoil]

Complete degradation of the state in the person of all its institutions - legislative, executive, judicial power, armed forces. And at the same time, the oncological growth of the police forces.
They are going to fight not with the United States, but with Voronezh.

[savage3000]

author, you raise excellent topics and write everything logically and correctly. moreover, you looked into the water in everything. you understand this well when reading an article of the 20th year of the 23rd ...