Military Review

What do the TT pistol and Browning pistols have in common?

152

The TT pistol is one of the symbols of the domestic rifle weapons... Perhaps it is for this reason that the debate about how Fyodor Vasilyevich Tokarev borrowed ideas from other designers during its development is of such concern to the public today. Without taking into account how much the TT pistol was from the Browning pistol models, this sample of small arms successfully entered the domestic history, becoming the first serial army self-loading pistol in the USSR. The pistol was put into service in 1930 and was mass-produced until 1953, the total production volume was 1 million 740 thousand copies.


Prerequisites for the creation of the TT pistol


By the time the Russian Empire collapsed and the Soviet Union emerged, the country had received a scattered arsenal of short-barreled firearms, represented by pistols and revolvers from many countries of the world. The Nagant revolver remained the standard and most massive army short-barreled weapon. It was obvious that this weapon was already obsolete. They wanted to change the revolver for a self-loading pistol even before the outbreak of the First World War, but these plans were never implemented. The war, the revolution that followed it, and then the civil war in Russia seriously postponed the timeline for the creation of a domestic army self-loading pistol.

The pistol, which went down in the history of small arms under the abbreviation TT (Tula Tokarev), was developed for a competition announced in 1929. The competition for a new army pistol was just supposed to find a replacement for the famous revolver "Nagan", as well as a number of models of self-loading pistols of a foreign model, which continued to remain in service with the Red Army by the end of the 1920s.

What do the TT pistol and Browning pistols have in common?

It is worth noting that in the Russian Empire and in the USSR, the products of designer John Browning had many connoisseurs. At one time, the tsarist government in 1916 issued an order in the United States for the supply of 100 thousand Colt M1911 pistols and 5 million cartridges for them. By January 1917, the country had received at least 47 of these pistols. Even earlier, another Browning pistol, Browning M1903, which was purchased for the police and the Separate Corps of Gendarmes, received distribution in Russia. In addition to them, the self-loading German Mauser C96 pistol, which is an indispensable attribute of many feature films about the civil war in Russia, was also widely used in the USSR.

The pistol, which received the laconic name TT, was created by Fyodor Tokarev in the design bureau of the Tula Arms Plant. The main cartridge for the new pistol was the German 7,63x25 mm Mauser cartridge. This ammunition was purchased in fairly large volumes, such cartridges were used with the Mauser C96 pistols in service. In the USSR, on the basis of this cartridge, they created their own 7,62x25 mm ammunition, which was interchangeable with the Mauser cartridge. In 1930, after the adoption of the TT pistol, the Soviet Union acquired a license from the Germans for the serial production of this cartridge. The same cartridge was planned to be used with all submachine guns developed in the country. When choosing a cartridge, sound pragmatism and economy won, which were achieved when unifying a single caliber for rifles, submachine guns and pistols. In particular, for the production of barrels, it was possible to use the same machine tools and instrumentation and tools.

What the TT pistol has in common with Browning pistols


Structurally, and externally, the TT resembled several John Browning pistols at once, and there was nothing strange about that. By that time, Browning had created one of the most popular self-loading pistols in history, and in the USSR, pistols of his system were in use and were available in commercial quantities. It was foolish to ignore the successful model, especially in the situation in which the Soviet Union and its industry were in the late 1920s and early 1930s.


Cartridges: 7,65 mm Browning, 7,62 × 25 mm TT, 9 × 19 mm Parabellum

The first domestic serial army self-loading pistol TT, created in Tula, was officially adopted under the designation “7,62-mm self-loading pistol arr. 1930 ”, successfully combined the design and layout of the Browning M1903 pistol, the Browning barrel locking scheme implemented in the Colt M1911, and the German Mauser cartridge 7,63x25 mm. Some domestic experts express the opinion that initially the designers even had the task of copying a modified John Browning pistol with a detachable trigger trigger. True, already in the process of work, they refused to completely and blindly copy the pistol due to the lack of the necessary technological base in the young Soviet republic for the serial production of such a model. The designers were faced with the task of reducing the cost of producing a pistol and simplifying the design as much as possible. Fedor Vasilyevich successfully coped with this task.

Structurally, the Tula Tokarev resembled the Colt M1911 semi-automatic pistol, developed by John Moses Browning in 1908. In both the TT and M1911, the automatics operated due to recoil with a short barrel stroke. The Browning locking system at that time was considered the simplest and most suitable for use in all models of compact weapons. Unlocking and locking the barrel of the TT pistol occurs by lowering and raising the breech, which swings on a special earring. On the trunk of the Tula Tokarev, two annular lugs were made, which mated with the inner surface of the shutter-casing. The shutter-casing of the self-loading pistol itself was supplied with internal grooves, with which the shutter slides along the guides of the frame. The return spring is installed under the barrel of the TT pistol, a guide rod was inserted into its rear end. The magazine of the pistol, designed for 8 rounds of 7,62x25 mm, is held in the frame of the handle by a push-button latch. This is where the similarities to the Colt M1911 end. Moreover, all of the listed elements have been modified to simplify production as much as possible.


Incomplete disassembly of the TT pistol


Partial disassembly of the Colt M1911 pistol

At the same time, obviously original design solutions were implemented in the TT pistol, aimed at maximizing the convenience of handling the pistol. These solutions included the combination of the firing mechanism (USM) in a single separate block-block. When the pistol was disassembled, this block was freely separated from the frame, after which it could be easily lubricated and cleaned. Placing the mainspring in the trigger allowed Tokarev to reduce the longitudinal width of the handle. Fastening the grip cheeks with rotary bars fixed to them simplified the process of disassembling the weapon. Also, a distinctive feature of the TT, which simplified the pistol, was the absence of a safety mechanism, the function of which was performed by the safety cocking of the trigger.

The Soviet designer took into account the well-known drawback of the Colt pistol: it was about the occurrence of delays in firing when the top of the store was damaged. The presence of guides for feeding the cartridge in the TT pistol in the USM block made the power supply system of the self-loading pistol from Tula less sensitive to the appearance of bends or dents on the magazine case.

True, not all of the simplifications went to Tokarev's pistol. In TT, the trigger played the role of a fuse, which could be put on a "safety platoon". As conceived by the designer, this was to completely exclude the possibility of a shot when the pistol falls or is hit. In practice, however, this was the sore spot of the pistol. Putting the trigger on the safety half-cocking led to excess tension of the mainspring, which was the reason for its rapid wear. At a critical moment, this could lead to a misfire. The wear of the trigger parts often caused accidental shots. As the army and the NKVD troops were saturated with a new pistol, the number of accidents increased, which led to the release of a special instruction, which prohibited carrying TT self-loading pistols with a cartridge in the chamber.


TT pistol with slide delay

The external similarity of the TT with the budget models of Browning pistols was quite strong. The Tula pistol had practically no protruding parts, with the exception of the slide delay. The simple shape of the handle with ebony overlays also resembled the 1903 Browning. The simplicity of the Soviet self-loading pistol had obvious advantages. The model is very compact and lightweight for a relatively powerful cartridge. More importantly, the pistol was narrow, allowing it to be used for concealed carry. The TT pistol could easily be hidden behind a belt or even in a sleeve. The length of Tula Tokarev was 195 mm, barrel length - 116 mm, height - 120 mm, width - 28 mm. The mass of the pistol without cartridges was only 825 grams, with cartridges - 910 grams.

instead of an epilogue


The TT pistol still remains one of the symbols of our small arms industry, which is due to the good tactical and technical characteristics of this model. While creating this self-loading pistol, Tokarev did not think about the fact that, after almost 100 years, someone would seriously discuss, sitting on the couch, how similar the pistol from Tula was to Browning pistols. His task was to adapt the best world practices to Soviet realities, presenting the country with a simple, reliable and inexpensive weapon with good characteristics. The designer coped with this task brilliantly. By the way, in tsarist Russia they could not launch their self-loading pistol into mass production, and in the USSR, despite all the difficulties, the new weapon en masse went to the troops.

In general, for the Soviet industry of the early 1930s, there was nothing wrong with copying and subsequent mass reproduction of its own analogues of the best foreign models of weapons, equipment, and engines. This applied to everything: from tanks to cars and from aircraft engines to batteries. Building its industry practically from scratch, the Soviet Union at the initial stage could rely only on this path of development.


Fedor Vasilyevich Tokarev

This does not in the least detract from the merits of our outstanding weapons designer Fyodor Vasilyevich Tokarev, who created the first domestic army self-loading pistol, which was successfully launched into mass production. Tokarev proved his outstanding design qualities with many projects, for example, the famous SVT self-loading rifles, which by the beginning of World War II had no analogues at all. The captured SVT-40s were highly appreciated by both German and Finnish soldiers. In Germany, rifles were officially adopted, and German designers borrowed the successful SVT-40 propellant gas evacuation system for their Gewehr 43 self-loading rifle, created already during the Second World War.
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  1. Zug
    Zug 24 November 2020 18: 11
    +12

    There is a Browning 1903 with an open trigger, a rare model - it also had a completely removable trigger block.
    So the author posted the wrong picture. Somehow there was a long time ago a dispute on the Browning-Tokarev topic here.
    1. deniso
      deniso 24 November 2020 19: 50
      +5
      Quote: Zug

      There is a Browning 1903 with an open trigger, a rare model - it also had a completely removable trigger block.
      So the author posted the wrong picture. Somehow there was a long time ago a dispute on the Browning-Tokarev topic here.


      Yes, "the same" ... that's how the hedgehog climbed off the cactus ...
      1. Zug
        Zug 25 November 2020 06: 49
        -2
        Have you read the article?
    2. kytx
      kytx 24 November 2020 20: 15
      +12
      in the world of gunsmiths it has always been good form to use other people's good solutions and not "reinvent the wheel"
      what F.Tokarev successfully coped with
      Thanks article always believed that TT revision 1903
      and he turns out to be 911 in fact

      did not shoot from Mr. Browning's products
      with TT shot
      I am very good at hand, perhaps the best that I used (from pistols)
      although I weigh very little and my palm is small
      1. kytx
        kytx 25 November 2020 08: 30
        -6
        ATP for plusers and people in the subject
        TT captivates
        well, it's easier only AK only it's not simpler
        when you start to understand why AK is made like that, just ooh "eat

        I see VO is prevailed in a bunch of amateurs and urapatriots, which is sad
        before it was a resource on which information I relied on and appreciated
        you started to devalue your work early
        this is me as special gru

        and so the best cannon was SmithWesson xs of what up to a year


        and yes
        I am an engineer
      2. Simargl
        Simargl 25 November 2020 19: 11
        +4
        Quote: kytx
        always believed that TT rework 1903
        and he turns out to be 911 in fact
        Not so: TT is a system of locking the barrel on the "Browning earring" like the Colt M1911 with adaptation for our production.
        For me, it would be better like the M1911 had a handle.
        Looking into the depths of the centuries, we can observe that most of the COPs have a locking system as in M1911. The only thing is that the earring was replaced with a copy groove.
        1. Alexfly
          Alexfly 30 November 2020 17: 43
          +1
          Not quite so, the earring is replaced by Browning in the GP35 (Grand Power) - a classic and an example of creating modern models. Since there was milling production in the USSR, they could have solved the issue with this.
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 30 November 2020 19: 15
            +1
            Quote: AlexFly
            Not certainly in that way
            On some clone (aren't they Poles?), They made a hook (open groove). He worked like.
      3. Alexfly
        Alexfly 30 November 2020 17: 37
        +1
        Basically yes, TT is an excellent work on the Browning Colt. USM do not know for sure, it is possible that similar systems existed. The barrel is from a Colt 1909, with circular grooves and an earring, so the issue of manufacturability has already been resolved. It is a pity that in Russia, the market for shooting sports fans is very limited. Possession of a firearm and the right to carry it are two different things ...
    3. beeper
      beeper 24 November 2020 23: 37
      +21
      Quote: Zug

      There is a Browning 1903 with an open trigger, a rare model - it also had a completely removable trigger block.
      So the author posted the wrong picture. Somehow there was a long time ago a dispute on the Browning-Tokarev topic here. I was proving what the article was about. They mixed me with everything possible.Gagged with this particular photograph

      hi And where did this "gagging" photograph come from with a really very rare (there is, in my opinion, only one copy, and that one comes from the USSR!) Browning 1903 model with a block trigger from a TT pistol ? smile
      I believe that you (most likely, out of ignorance ?!) in vain "nightmare" our readers, dear aka Zug. yes
      This photo first appeared in the Russian magazine "Soldier of Fortune" in the 1990s (or early 2000s)! There was also a corresponding Article, as if not the same scandalous author (but I don’t remember exactly who was interested, probably, he himself will find and read the "electronic" on the Web, or "paper" on second-hand booksellers), who indiscriminately accused Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov in plagiarism ?!
      And then with this weapon "revelation", as it turned out, which struck not only me, the near-weapon journalists themselves figured out.
      And it turned out that for some reason (maybe someone's "diploma" or "dissertation" ??!) Converted under the trigger block trigger of the domestic pistol "TT", the Belgian "Browning" was kept among the experienced, " search ", weapons samples either in the Tula TsKIB SOO, or in the Podolsk TsNITochmash, or elsewhere in the Soviet (now-Russian) arms enterprise!
      So, it turns out that there is nothing to "gag"! request
      All Kind to you, aka Zug, read more special and popular rifle literature, think and analyze on your own (yes, just "open your eyes", did not you recognize Tokarev's trigger ?! smile ), and do not fall for cheap "sensations" and then you will not become their unwitting distributor! yes
      1. Zug
        Zug 25 November 2020 07: 01
        -2
        Have you looked at the photo well? You see there a disassembled Browning and TT. Do you feel the similarity? It can be seen with the naked eye that the disassembled Browning is an independent model. There the shape of both the block and the trigger is different like everything else. The similarity is only general. What kind of plagiarism? What kind of Kalashnikov?
        Where is it written that it is "disfigured" Browning? I personally see 2 similar pistols. And in the article everything is correctly said-Tokarev took 2 barrels and using them created his own barrel. That in 30 years was the right decision. And all these "oh photo is not right there, the FSE was redone" in short, don't believe to your eyes; leave it to yourself.
        1. aversun
          aversun 5 January 2021 10: 11
          0
          And where is it actually seen that the second barrel is Browning? In addition to FN on the cheeks, there are no more markings, the bolt is empty on the steel. This does not happen, on any Browning on the left side it is written what kind of pistol it is. This is some kind of alteration of Browning, probably by the TT designer himself, from Browning there are only plastic covers on the handle ...
          1. Zug
            Zug 7 January 2021 14: 41
            0
            you look at the disassembled version, the details are different, there is simply a similarity. So it is clearly visible that these are two different pistols. It's just that there is a Browning with an open trigger, that's the whole trouble
      2. Zug
        Zug 25 November 2020 07: 09
        -2
        Here is an excerpt from the article
        Immediately you need to start with the appearance of the weapon, because of which the pistol is credited with being related to the TT. Indeed, externally, the FN Browning M1903 pistol is very similar to the domestic TT, or rather, on the contrary, the TT is similar to the FN Browning M1903, after all, the TT appeared much later. Inside, both pistols are completely different. So, unlike TT, the FN Browning M1903 pistol is built according to a free breechblock scheme, does not have an external trigger (present in some modifications), as well as a modular trigger mechanism. In general, if we compare the TT with the weapon to which Browning is related, then it is more likely the Colt M1911, but a slightly different type of trigger mechanism is used back in the TT, so the comparison is unsuccessful here too. From all this, it is not difficult to conclude that if Tokarev can be accused of plagiarism, it is only for external resemblance to models, but inside it is another weapon that has its own characteristics.
      3. Zug
        Zug 25 November 2020 07: 59
        -1
        Model with an open trigger was made in the USA - as one of the options


        The FN - Browning M1903 self-loading pistol was the second pistol design by the legendary American John Browning to be released in Europe. Developed by 1902, this pistol in slightly different versions was produced in the USA, at the Colt company (under the designation Colt Pocket Automatic pistol M1903, chambered for .32АСР / 7.65mm Browning), and in Belgium, at Fabrik National. The American version of the M1903 turned out to be more tenacious, and, in various versions, differing, among other things, with an open or hidden trigger, enjoyed a well-known popularity in the United States as a concealed carry weapon.
        1. Timeout
          Timeout 27 November 2020 03: 31
          +5
          Quote: Zug
          Developed by 1902, this pistol in slightly different versions was also produced in the USA, by the Colt company (under the designation Colt Pocket Automatic pistol M1903, chambered for .32АСР / 7.65mm Browning),

          Dear, you decided to scare everyone with otherworldly knowledge along the way? Only it was necessary to attend to the information from the patent office a little, and then convince the VO about his innermost knowledge. Gripping the tops did not give you the opportunity to know that there are two M1903 models, the Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammer (grandfather of the M1911) and the Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless (copy of the FN Browning M1903), which you write about as one model. For clarity:


          Quote: Zug
          There is a Browning 1903 with an open trigger, a rare model - it also had a completely removable trigger block.

          The unknown Browning again? This is an experimental TT model based on 1903, photo from the TOZ museum. Look for patents and find a Browning 1903 with open trigger and detachable trigger in one unit! Here's a link for self-education.
          http://www.coltautos.com/coltpatents.htm
          Learn the subject!
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 27 November 2020 14: 54
            +1
            Quote: Timeout
            The unknown Browning again?

            Yeah "unknown Browning"))) - I haven't seen a single stigma, although my eyesight may fail.
            1. Timeout
              Timeout 28 November 2020 04: 42
              +4
              Quote: mat-vey
              I didn’t see a single stigma, although my eyesight might fail.

              The fact of the matter is that Zug does not know that patent information was knocked out on the left side of the Colt and FN weapons of those years. And Mauser already had a patent for a removable trigger, so again everything was past the checkout ...
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 28 November 2020 08: 28
                +1
                There is also a question with the degree of "rarity" - where does this "rarity" occur. There is at least one specimen in the United States ...
                1. Timeout
                  Timeout 30 November 2020 08: 37
                  +2
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  There is also a question with the degree of "rarity" - where does this "rarity" occur. There is at least one specimen in the United States ...

                  Such a "rarity" that does not exist at all ....
          2. Zug
            Zug 30 November 2020 09: 23
            -2
            The American version of the M1903 turned out to be more tenacious, and, in various versions, differing, among other things, with an open or hidden trigger, enjoyed a well-known popularity in the USA as a concealed carry weapon.

            This is a clipping from an article. It says exactly about m1903. Did you see the picture above? Or is it graphics? I know both Colt. The photo shows obvious differences, and the trigger and even more so everything else. And there is clearly a Browning sign on the cheek. to invent something that is not, an early model of TT.))) Hilarious, even from the size of the store it is clear that this is a completely different model from the TT. Just not with a closed one, but in the version with an open trigger. That's all. You do not need to pull the owl on the globe ...
    4. zenion
      zenion 25 November 2020 18: 27
      +2
      Zug (Zug) They have in common not only with the Browning, but also with other weapons, he shoots just like others - through the muzzle.
      1. Zug
        Zug 25 November 2020 19: 18
        -2
        They gave birth to a cool pearl!
    5. Yellow bubble
      Yellow bubble 26 November 2020 21: 45
      +1
      Tokarev said that when developing a pistol for the Soviet army, he was given a bruning pistol as a prototype, he never claimed to be the inventor of this pistol, but as soon as the designer made his own changes and improvements, that the pistol TT and the Browning are still different recognized by the Americans themselves. power supply system and short stroke recoil system, etc. differed from Browning, which made it possible to talk about the independent development of Tokarev exactly like Kalashnikov and Galil.
    6. V. Salama
      V. Salama 27 November 2020 22: 33
      +3
      Quote: Zug
      Proved what the article is about.

      Probably you are not what the article was arguing about. Although the article itself is nonsense:
      Some domestic experts express the opinion that initially the designers even had the task of copying a modified John Browning pistol with a detachable trigger trigger.
      Probably you share the opinion of these "experts", which could have appeared only somewhere in the 90s. The problem is that John Browning's Detachable Trigger Pistol doesn't exist. More precisely, there is a copy of it in combination with a removable trigger trigger in one copy and the origin of this pistol is not known, more precisely, it is not commented on, since at one time this fact was used by liberal minds to prove what you were proving. This pistol has not only a serial number, but also no marks at all. I guess this is just someone's thesis or a production experiment. Nevertheless, it is no secret that Tokarev was delighted with the manufacturability of the Browning-1903 design. So what follows from this - borrowed manufacturability? These are two different pistols and the TT was in service for a long time in more than 50 countries. You can, of course, speculate about what Tokarev took useful from Browning - 1903, dimensions, for example, and what are very successful. Yugoslavian 9 charger - it seems like only one cartridge, but already felt comparatively bulky. But it can be worse. There are experts who claim that Makarov copied Walter PP in the PM because of the same number of notches on the shutter casing. According to this logic, it is impossible to develop your own car industry, for example, since a car has four wheels and, in order to avoid accusations of plagiarism, at least five-wheeled cars should be created, since there were already three-wheeled cars. By the way, there are also those who like to argue about the originality of the Pobeda design.
      1. Zug
        Zug 30 November 2020 09: 33
        -2
        Yes, yes, a barrel made in one copy, a magazine, a trigger, etc. I'm actually talking about a model with an open trigger. In the article I mentioned above, it is written. That a model with both an open and a closed trigger as 2 options were made in the USA. Yes, and from the photo you can see that both USM are different. There are common features. And I don’t believe that "it" was made for some reason in one copy. And about the photo-you are trying to believe-Do not believe your eyes his
  2. your1970
    your1970 24 November 2020 18: 21
    +8
    That TT, that M1911 is a classic of the weapon genre. That is why after 100 years they are relevant.
  3. svp67
    svp67 24 November 2020 18: 51
    +17
    Tokarev did nothing so "terrible", always all the designers took something as a basis, trying to choose the best and on the basis of this they already created their own, personalized. How many cases have there been in the history of the creation of weapons, when the "simple" alteration of any excellent sample of weapons simply for a different cartridge led to the fact that this sample became useless to anyone, due to a sharp drop in combat and operational qualities. And the TT is still a weapon created for a different cartridge.
    Not only that, the pistol had to be created quickly, which Tokarev did. For which HONOR and PRAISE to him
  4. Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 24 November 2020 18: 58
    +10
    The most interesting thing is that in the USA, TT pistols in their original configuration are considered "dangerous to use", therefore, ALL TT pistols imported to the USA (Polish RADOMs, Yugovskie M57, Romania) are supplemented with a fuse, just like in the old Browning.
    1. Alexfly
      Alexfly 24 November 2020 20: 51
      0
      In the USA, if I understood correctly, there must be a manual safety catch ... Really, how do they use the Glock then ....?
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 25 November 2020 02: 49
        +4
        This is a perfectly fair question. The Glock, and other Glock-like ones, have a trigger safety catch. I mean, there is a fuse on the Glock. Another thing is that the number of crossbows by Glock and others like him is much higher than with pistols where there is a normal fuse or "decocker". American self-defense instructors with pistols openly say that Glock and others like him are "NOT GUNS FOR BEGINNERS" and require much more attention and discipline. I am far from a beginner, nevertheless my self-defense pistol is Chz75. not a glock .. One of the reasons for the popularity of the M1911, by the way, is that it has two fuses. Nevertheless, there is at least some kind of fuse on the GLOK. According to American regulations on TT, this is NOT AT ALL. Therefore, when they are imported (Yugoslavian, Polish and Romanian), then fuses are installed on them. Otherwise, these cannot be sold.
    2. Constanty
      Constanty 24 November 2020 21: 25
      +4
      A small note. In the USA, Vis wz.35 pistols are called "Radom". On the TT-33 produced in Poland, there was no word "Radom" anywhere - at first there was the designation FB, then the well-known "11 in an oval" - "works 11". They were simply called "Polish Tokarev".




      later
      1. zenion
        zenion 25 November 2020 18: 38
        0
        Konstanty (Konstanty) Many do not realize that Tokarev was creating a pistol for war, and not a game of war. That is, I bare the barrel and shoot, there is no need for a fuse. In war, the fuse is superfluous.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 25 November 2020 20: 06
          +1
          I'm a little surprised. I have not written anything about the fuse in the TT and do not consider it a drawback in the combat pistol.

          Until recently, the TT was very popular in Poland among sports shooters (club shooters and myself) because of its price and durability. Currently, unfortunately, the price of 7,62x25 rounds means that they are getting smaller.
  5. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 24 November 2020 19: 04
    +4
    Krasava, not a pistol!
    An epic example of our weapon!
    1. Generator Systems
      Generator Systems 24 November 2020 19: 14
      +5
      If it was still updated it would be generally great good Although copies of TT with minor design differences were actively used until 1980 in different countries of the world.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 24 November 2020 20: 53
        0
        Quote: Systems Generator
        Although copies of TT with minor design differences were actively used until 1980 in different countries of the world.

        In the 90s, killers had one of the most popular guns in our country.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 21: 25
          -4
          Quote: Bad_gr
          In the 90s, killers had one of the most popular guns in our country.

          It's flat and easy to hide.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 24 November 2020 21: 27
            +3
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            It's flat and easy to hide.

            I think because of the high penetration power of the bullet (not every body armor holds it)
            And the pistol at that time was comparatively not expensive (especially Chinese ones) and after completing its task, it was simply thrown away.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 21: 41
              +1
              Quote: Bad_gr
              (especially Chinese)

              Chinese TT in those days is a separate story. The spring can burst out of the blue for no reason. Or even like plasticine will shrink and not unclench. Although yes, cheap. And at that time very few people carried armor.
              1. kytx
                kytx 25 November 2020 08: 39
                0
                Chinese TT decides
                and no matter what cartridge
                But it costs like a Chinese lighter
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 25 November 2020 17: 19
                  +1
                  Quote: kytx
                  But it costs like a Chinese lighter

                  Yeah, one million two hundred TT was worth in the mid-90s. A very good salary for those times. True, I didn't ask if they were Chinese or not.
                  1. kytx
                    kytx 27 November 2020 17: 25
                    0
                    in Moscow time, then from 60 to 100 Baku
                    plus 2 clips
                    and don't ask how I know
              2. Petrik66
                Petrik66 25 November 2020 14: 39
                0
                ВS has not yet fired from the Romanian TT, this is generally a song. We received for collectors in '95, a batch of 10 tons of Romanian production. Well, the wooden cheeks are still okay, but when they arrived at the shooting range, two out of three, at the turn, when the trigger was pressed, the clips fell out, but there was no shot ... Everyone rode with laughter, the head of the guard saved ... party, one of them drops a clip instead of a shot ... ... returned back, got Soviet - things This is not a bike, I swear by my mother.
                1. kytx
                  kytx 27 November 2020 17: 27
                  0
                  the store sometimes fell out of sovetsky
                  it is a fact
                  but the story is funny F)
          2. Zug
            Zug 25 November 2020 07: 03
            0
            Because there were a lot of them and they were cheap. There was no problem with ammunition.
  6. boris epstein
    boris epstein 24 November 2020 19: 05
    0
    They have been talking about who copied what and from whom for a long time. For example, the magazine rifle invented by the Russian gunsmith was not named after him due to the fact that he allegedly used several parts from the Browning rifle. The radio invented and used for the first time is not called until now. the invention of the author, Alexander Stepanovich Popov, and is called by the name of Marconi. In the absence of such works by Western chemists, the periodic system of elements of DI Mendeleev is not called by his name, but simply the periodic system. They are trying to humiliate Koshkin with the T-34 due to the fact that he used the spring suspension of the American Christie, forgetting that the spring suspension existed on the tanks of the First World War and on the model of the Russian tank of Vasily Dmitrievich Mendeleev, the son of DI Mendeleev (1914). and MI Koshkin on his T-34M model has already used a torsion bar suspension. The KV and IS tanks also had a torsion bar suspension. Berdan simply stole the development of the Russian engineer Gorlov. And the rifle is still called the Berdank. But if we speak in principle, all the developments of automatic hand-held small arms come from the book of the Russian and Soviet weapons designer Vladimir Grigorievich Fedorov "Automatic weapons". It was he who in 1915 invented the world's first machine gun. Schmeiser was a year behind him. But the technology for the production of rifling in the barrels of firearms, invented in the USSR in 1938, which made it possible to increase production tenfold, the United States was able to repeat only in 1964. For the first time in the USSR, stamping was used in the production of hand firearms by Georgy Semenovich Shpagin, which significantly increased productivity and reduced costs. This is also silent. Proof: Germany produced submachine guns MP 38/40 900 thousand, and the USSR produced PPD, PPSh, PPS-6,5 million!
    1. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu 24 November 2020 19: 39
      +16
      Patriotic is good. But it would be nice as well and competently. Berdan did not steal Gorlov's design, the three-line has details not of Browning, but of Nagan, radio has a complex history, where there is a place for Popova, Marconi, and other inventors. Etc.
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 24 November 2020 20: 30
        0
        With your permission, I will understand more for the overall picture!
        The production of barrels by blowing in the states was known even before the war. However, they considered the accuracy and durability of such barrels unacceptable. Therefore, they were not used en masse!
        Shpagin is not a pioneer in the use of stamping in the manufacture of weapons. He was the first in the union, but not in the world, and even less ahead of the Deutsche.
        The fact that the Germans fired only 900 thousand submachine guns only says that the Soviet army did not have a normal light machine gun and our army raised the density of fire with submachine guns.
        P.S. Sturmgewer was in fact solid stamped.
        P.S. 2. Hugo Schmeiser is our captive
        So he brought the level of our stamping for ak-47 to an acceptable level. Which, after using a stamped box, became an AKM and is half a kilo lighter!
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 25 November 2020 16: 51
          +1
          Quote: dgonni
          So he brought the level of our stamping for ak-47 to an acceptable level. Which, after using a stamped box, became an AKM and is half a kilo lighter!

          The modernized 7,62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifle (AKM, GRAU Index - 6P1) is an assault rifle adopted by the USSR Armed Forces in 1959.
          Hugo Schmeisser (German Hugo Schmeisser; September 24, 1884, Jena - September 12, 1953, Erfurt)
          The Mkb of the Schmeisser system, as stipulated by the terms of reference, consisted mainly of stamped parts. It is worth noting that Haenel, who had no experience with stamped steel parts, had to turn to Merz Werke for help.
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 24 November 2020 20: 21
      +13
      The speech is as temperamental as it is ignorant.
      For example, a magazine rifle invented by a Russian gunsmith was not named after him due to the fact that he allegedly used several parts from a Browning rifle
      If you mean Mosin, then in his 1891 rifle from the Browning rifle there is not a single detail and no one attributed to him borrowing from Browning.
      The invented and first used radio is not still called the invention of the author, Alexander Stepanovich Popov, but is called the name of Marconi.
      The myth that radio was "invented and first used" by one person, be it Popov or Marconi, wanders among the poorly oriented ordinary people.
      For fun, let's turn to The Early History of Radio by British author Gerald Garrath. The book has withstood 16 editions in three years.
      At the very beginning, we read: "Although development of the first radio wave communication system is attributed to Guglielmo Marconi, his was just the practical application of 80 years of scientific advancement in the field including the predictions of Michael Faraday, the theoretical work of James Clerk Maxwell , and the experimental demonstrations of Heinrich Rudolf Hertz "(Although the development of the first radio communication system is attributed to Guglielmo Marconi, this was just a practical application of 80 years of scientific progress in this area, including the predictions of Michael Faraday, the theoretical work of James Clerk Maxwell and the experimental demonstrations of Heinrich Rudolf Hertz).
      They are trying to humiliate Koshkin with the T-34 due to the fact that he used the spring suspension of the American Christie, forgetting that the spring suspension existed on the tanks of the First World War and on the model of the Russian tank Vasily Dmitrievich Mendeleev, the son of DI Mendeleev (1914)
      Nobody humiliates Koshkin anywhere. This is the first thing. Secondly, on the Mendeleev's tank, the suspension was pneumatic with vertical pneumatic cylinders.
      Not a single tank of the WWII period had an independent suspension with a helical coil spring.
      The periodic table has been universally recognized as part of fundamental chemical knowledge throughout the world.
      Berdan did not steal anything from Gorlov.
    3. Undecim
      Undecim 24 November 2020 21: 55
      +9
      And speaking in principle, all the developments of automatic hand-held small arms come from the book of the Russian and Soviet weapons designer Vladimir Grigorievich Fedorov "Automatic weapons". It was he who, back in 1915, invented the world's first automatic machine.
      The specified book by Fedorov was published in 1907. But what about the samples that appeared before?
      For example, the Italian automatic rifle Cei-Rigotti, 1890. Caliber 6,5 mm or 7,65 mm.

      And Fedorov never called his automatic rifle an automatic rifle.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 25 November 2020 16: 55
        0
        So what is the same machine according to your classification?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 25 November 2020 17: 30
          0
          GOST 28653-90 “Small arms. Terms and Definitions"
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 25 November 2020 17: 35
            0
            Quote: Undecim
            GOST 28653-90 “Small arms. Terms and Definitions"

            How interesting, and Fedorov died in 1966, and N.M. Filatov in 1935, well, AK was adopted in 1949.
            Well, STG -44 is also not an automatic machine.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 25 November 2020 18: 20
              0
              And what does that change?
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 25 November 2020 18: 23
                0
                Quote: Undecim
                And what does that change?

                Yes, nothing except that they did not live to see the guests. And the machines did and even the term itself came up.
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 25 November 2020 18: 25
                  0
                  The term does not exist by itself. The term has content. I cited a page from the 1923 book below as an example. In addition, the term "machine gun" in relation to hand-held firearms is used only in the post-Soviet space. Therefore, it is not clear what you are trying to find out or prove.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 25 November 2020 18: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Undecim
                    Therefore, it is not clear what you are trying to find out or prove.

                    Is it possible?
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 25 November 2020 18: 35
                      +1
                      Of course, it is possible if you clearly state your thought, on the one hand, and have a desire to perceive information on the other. If you already have a ready-made thesis that Fedorov invented the "automaton", then we are wasting time.
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 25 November 2020 18: 38
                        +1
                        Quote: Undecim
                        If you already have a ready-made thesis that Fedorov invented the "automaton", then we are wasting time.

                        What is written on the scan you provided? Yes, in the GOST? That is why it was your definition that interested me. Obviously, neither according to GOST, nor according to your own scans.
                      2. Undecim
                        Undecim 25 November 2020 18: 42
                        +1
                        Exactly, we are wasting time.
                      3. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 25 November 2020 18: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Undecim
                        Exactly, we are wasting time.

                        So nothing else was expected of you.
                      4. Undecim
                        Undecim 25 November 2020 18: 45
                        +1
                        I am glad that I met your expectations.
                      5. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 25 November 2020 18: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Undecim
                        I am glad that I met your expectations.

                        And I'm glad that I was not disappointed in you. They showed that they are not like everyone else and okay.
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 25 November 2020 18: 23
        +1

        From the book "Fedorov's Automatic Machine". Sverchkov. 1923 year.
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 25 November 2020 18: 30
          0
          From GOST 28653-90:
          35. Carbine - Lightweight rifle with a shortened barrel.
          36. Automatic - Automatic carbine.
  • Simargl
    Simargl 25 November 2020 19: 57
    +2
    Quote: Undecim
    But what about the samples that appeared before?
    M. Mondragon made both a butterfly valve and a gas outlet ... that's, in fact, from whom MTC "stole" the structure!
  • Generator Systems
    Generator Systems 24 November 2020 19: 11
    +1
    Wasn't the 1911 Colt at the heart of the TT?
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 24 November 2020 20: 06
      +2
      Also, by the way, Browning's development when he worked for Colt. With the family traits of almost all Browning pistols.
    2. Zug
      Zug 25 November 2020 07: 24
      +1
      Tokarev took the Browning 190 as a basis, and plus that the cartridge is powerful and the barrel must be locked. This is from 2 Browning models he made TT. And he did the right thing - in 20 years in young Russia there was no time for fat - and time was also needed - a pistol was needed. And Tokarev acted wisely, did not reinvent the wheel. I will note that in practice companies subsequently used the Browning locking principle, IN THIS OR ANOTHER FORM. In short, Tokarev was, so to speak, the first of the successors of such a locking system.
    3. Simargl
      Simargl 25 November 2020 19: 58
      0
      Quote: Systems Generator
      Wasn't the 1911 Colt at the heart of the TT?
      What does in essence mean? Automatic - yes, on Browning's earring. But there is still a lot in the gun.
  • deniso
    deniso 24 November 2020 19: 49
    0
    Exterior doesn't mean interior. And those who write that TT and Browning FN are the same simply have poor eyesight: the differences are even visually visible!
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 24 November 2020 20: 23
    0
    the cartridge is simply magnificent he is better than all nines just the pistol was not brought to mind
    1. Zug
      Zug 25 November 2020 07: 25
      0
      A strangely created commission at 20 shoveled a bunch of cartridges and came to the conclusion that the 9 mm Para cartridge was the most optimal. There was also a recommendation from the commission to accept this particular cartridge.
    2. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 27 November 2020 17: 43
      0
      How is it great and how is it better than 9 mm? If he is so good why did he disappear into oblivion?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 November 2020 21: 01
    +7
    True, not all of the simplifications went to Tokarev's pistol.

    The author forgot to mention such a "small" detail as the spontaneous loss of the store.
    And regarding the convenience of using the TT, compare it with the same 1911 in terms of convenience and application. I fired with both, and, with a much larger caliber, the Colt does not jump in the hand as much as the TT and its grip is much more convenient Tteshnaya. But here, as they say, the taste and color.
    I will only add that before the war a competition was held to replace the TT with another pistol, and Voevodin's pistol won it, and only the war prevented its serial production from being established, and the pistol was very good.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 21: 15
      +1
      Wasn't Voevodin's pistol made for tankers?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 24 November 2020 21: 24
        +3
        Initially, the application was for a pistol for armored forces, but when Voevodin "beat" the TT in all respects (power, accuracy, number of cartridges in the store, ease of handling), there was an opinion to replace TT with it in the entire army, although it was more expensive in production and weighed a little more.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 21: 31
          +5
          Quote: Sea Cat
          there was an opinion to replace them with TT in the entire army,

          Sorry. The army did not have enough pistols. My grandfather was a mechanic on the BT, so the lieutenant had one TT for the entire crew. Neither grandfather (foreman) nor the tower had a shit.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 24 November 2020 22: 25
            +4
            My brother flew on the "Pawn", the flyers had no problems with this, but everyone "hunted" for R.08, young guys, everyone wanted to do something. smile
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 22: 44
              +6
              Quote: Sea Cat
              all "hunted" for R.08, young guys, everyone wanted to do something.

              No, I think the best WWII pistol is the XNUMX-shooter Browning. What the SS troops used. Well, the German saboteurs.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 24 November 2020 22: 56
                +3
                Yes, the "eight" just looked impressive and characteristic, so they wanted it, and I say - to show off.
                Browning Hi-Power is certainly good, but with a big drawback - there is no self-cocking. Of all the military hardware that fell into the hands with the ability to shoot normally, the Walther P38 made the best impression, with the same cartridge and almost the same weight and size as the P.08, it is much more powerful, besides self-cocking.
                And in what capacity did the SS use the Browning, centrally, or was it an initiative of individual commanders? There was complete confusion with personal weapons, but our SVT-40 SS snipers were armed precisely centrally.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 23: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  And in what capacity did the SS use the Browning, centrally, or was it an initiative of individual commanders?

                  I honestly don't know. The pistol was produced in Belgium (Erstal, near Liege), and the Germans captured Belgium only in the 40th year. Before that, there must have been Parabellums. And we can and the combined hodgepodge. But the fact that he was in service with more than 55 countries of the world means a lot. In Bogomolov's "moment of truth" saboteur Mishchenko and Ambal were armed with this Browning. And the policeman Thistle with him chased Rambo. laughing
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 24 November 2020 23: 26
                    +3
                    Ambal and Mishchenko had "Browning Long 07", outwardly almost indistinguishable from TT, in fact it is the same Browning model arr. 1903 chambered for 9x20 mm Browning Long. A very powerful machine.
                    Well, it's better not to judge anything from the movies, they sometimes blurt out something that just hold on.
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 23: 34
                      +3
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      Well, it's better not to judge anything from the movies, they sometimes blurt out something that just hold on.

                      I'm talking about a book. "Rambo - First Blood" was written by David Morrell. Quite interesting reading.
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 24 November 2020 23: 38
                        +3
                        I have not read it and I cannot judge, but there is nothing to say about the film, if the first episode can still be watched somehow, then all the rest are for American preschool age.
                      2. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 23: 45
                        +2
                        The first Ramba is quite interesting, and the rest are complete bullshit. Well, an actor from Stallone is like a Spanish pilot from me.
                        A good book was ruined. I'm talking about the first part.
                      3. kytx
                        kytx 28 November 2020 04: 51
                        0
                        read
                        The book is not about what the film is about
                        And the sugary Stalone is gone
                  2. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 27 November 2020 17: 48
                    0
                    about 350 J not so powerful
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 24 November 2020 23: 53
                +4
                Of all the military hardware that fell into the hands with the ability to shoot normally, the Walther P38 made the best impression
                And on me - this one.
                1. motorized rifle
                  motorized rifle 25 November 2020 00: 51
                  +1
                  Look at the reverse side, there may be a 1-16 fire translator, well, the length of the handle, is it 8 or 16 rounds? Loading is true from the clip like the C-96.
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 25 November 2020 01: 03
                    +2
                    Look at the other side
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 25 November 2020 01: 14
                      +2
                      there may be a fire translator 1-16

                      This is a slightly different model - Repetierpistole M1912 / P16.
                    2. Okolotochny
                      Okolotochny 25 November 2020 12: 40
                      +1
                      Mannlicher? No?
                    3. Undecim
                      Undecim 25 November 2020 12: 53
                      0
                      Steyr Mannlicher AG
                    4. Timeout
                      Timeout 27 November 2020 04: 03
                      +1
                      Quote: Undecim
                      Steyr Mannlicher AG

                      Österreichische Waffenfabriksgesellschaft (Austrian arms-manufacturing company ŒWG)
                    5. Undecim
                      Undecim 27 November 2020 07: 38
                      +1
                      Yes, that's right.
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 25 November 2020 01: 38
            +2
            Well, I only held this device in my hands, I was not able to shoot from it, there were no cartridges for it. Have you come across a 9x19 model?
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 25 November 2020 01: 46
              +2
              No, I didn't. Only native 9x23. It would be more correct to say that it was not the pistol I got, but I to him. The Austrians gave me such an opportunity.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 25 November 2020 01: 48
                +3
                A happy man, and even with an original patron! good drinks
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 25 November 2020 01: 52
                +3
                Oddly enough, despite the powerful cartridge, the shooting from this pistol, I would say, is comfortable, which I have not seen even in modern samples.
              3. Catfish
                Catfish 25 November 2020 02: 39
                +2
                Just wanted to ask you what is the impression after the shooting.
                By the way, Steer of this model "starred" in Tarkovsky's "Solaris", where Banionis kept him with him, fearing the next appearance of the cadaver.


                And in general, our directors had some kind of craving to insert weapons into their films that had long gone out of circulation, but had to portray something cosmic in the plot. For example, in the film "Planet of Storms" (1961), the "American" cosmonaut had none other than Borchardt K93. smile

                As a boy, I almost spent the night in the Children's Library of the State Historical Museum, until I found this model.
              4. Undecim
                Undecim 25 November 2020 08: 43
                +2
                I, as a boy, almost spent the night in the Children's Library of the State Historical Museum
                In those epic times, finding information was a serious task. You are in luck, you had the State Historical Museum with its library. And we did not have a State Historical Museum in the regional center.
              5. Catfish
                Catfish 25 November 2020 17: 20
                +3
                ... And we did not have a State Historical Museum in the regional center.

                Well, Victor, it couldn't stop you. smile
              6. Undecim
                Undecim 25 November 2020 17: 30
                +2
                Nevertheless, the access to information among the inhabitants of the deep provinces was very different compared to the capitals. My friend and I even combed through the libraries of the village councils, fortunately the uncle was a patronage, moreover, we climbed through closets and "storerooms".
                Sometimes there were unique things, and sometimes funny ones. In one of the dusty closets, they found a parcel-like parcel with wax seals. Inside - several decks of playing cards from the beginning of the last century, moreover, pornographic.
              7. Catfish
                Catfish 25 November 2020 18: 34
                +2
                I can't even imagine what can be found in the Leninka Spetshrana. If here, in the village library of the local club, there were two volumes of Jerome (they exchanged some detectives for a polish), and in the hospital, in the locker of books left by patients, I found O. Henry of the fifties, I stole, of course.
              8. Undecim
                Undecim 25 November 2020 18: 39
                +2
                And I found Brockhaus in the "storerooms" of our school library, which is 41 volumes. While he was persuading his father to talk to the director about the "withdrawal", he was handed over to waste paper.
              9. Catfish
                Catfish 25 November 2020 18: 49
                +4
                Brockhaus? !!! I believe you, of course, but it still doesn't fit in my head. At our home, there are exactly twelve volumes left from my father, in disagreement, and even then, dust is only blown off them, and no, no with a rag. It was only from there that I first learned about the Minier bullet and saw photographs of battleships from different countries at the beginning of the century, and then I "fell ill" with the love of weapons and the navy.
              10. Undecim
                Undecim 25 November 2020 19: 00
                +1
                Constantine, in the 60s and 70s, the majority did not see any value in such books. Where did the pioneers collect tons of waste paper? And it was not Lenin's PSS or the two-volume editions of Jacques Duclos, who was lent to me in the load for the "Three Musketeers", which were handed over to waste paper. For such "waste paper" it was possible to get a hat. So the filing of pre-revolutionary magazines, and Brockhaus, and the first issue of TSB, and much more, were also recycled.
              11. Catfish
                Catfish 25 November 2020 19: 05
                +1
                ... For such "waste paper" it was possible to get

                In the early eighties I passed all the complete meetings of both leaders without any problems, but they did not give much for them (I mean money). request smile
              12. Undecim
                Undecim 25 November 2020 19: 31
                +1
                all complete meetings of both chiefs
                And who is the second?
              13. Catfish
                Catfish 25 November 2020 19: 57
                +2
                The second is the one who did not manage to become the first. smile
                And, interestingly, I.V. Stalin, by the number of volumes of one format, was much more than V.I. Ulyanov.
                Do you think moving the letters in the initials greatly affects the perception of the text?
              14. Undecim
                Undecim 25 November 2020 20: 34
                +1
                I don’t. And Stalin's PSS could still be left.
              15. Catfish
                Catfish 25 November 2020 21: 07
                +1
                I was fed up with conversations with my dad, everything was on the "three whales", and then rolled into banal labels. Therefore, he sold everything, did not even turn over the pages, he ate so much.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 25 November 2020 16: 35
    +2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    And in general, our directors had some kind of craving to insert weapons into their films that had long gone out of circulation, but had to portray something cosmic in the plot. For example, in the film "Planet of Storms" (1961), the "American" cosmonaut had none other than Borchardt K93.

    Han Solo nods in understanding, considering his C96 thoughtfully. Nearby, an Imperial stormtrooper looks at his Lewis just as thoughtfully. smile
  • uav80
    uav80 27 November 2020 08: 38
    +1
    I remember Steyr precisely for the film "Shadow of the Fern" ...



    And so he is quite a lot where about 50 films and serials from different countries have been lit up, for example, "his own among strangers, strangers among his own"



    Well, or "the secret of two oceans"

  • Catfish
    Catfish 27 November 2020 14: 51
    +1
    Good afternoon, Alexander. hi
    I just remembered our film "Footprints in the Snow" (1955). What kind of barrel do you think was filmed in this film? I still have not figured out what nationality he is, Korean is not Korean, Chinese is not Chinese, but clearly not our TT and not "theirs! Colt." smile


    And further.

  • John22
    John22 4 February 2021 21: 31
    +1
    This is the Polish VIS-35.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 4 February 2021 21: 38
    0
    Quite right. The question was "for filling". smile
    Sometimes it is also mistakenly called RADOM, after the stamp on the shutter - the city in which it was produced.
  • ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 27 November 2020 17: 50
    0
    An archaic steyer, a quality thing, but what about patriots?
  • faiver
    faiver 25 November 2020 07: 24
    +1
    The Walther P38 has a slightly longer barrel than the P.08, hence the difference ...
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 25 November 2020 17: 12
      +2
      That's right, from there the initial speed is higher.
  • ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 27 November 2020 17: 45
    0
    Hay power is a valid barrel, but Walter is gorgeous.
  • kytx
    kytx 25 November 2020 08: 48
    0
    it was much more expensive

    and here
    "this is war baby"

    the war began much earlier than 39 to make it clear, but then everyone understood everything :(
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 25 November 2020 17: 19
      +1
      "Much more expensive" - ​​how much?
      The competition lasted from 1036 to 1940 inclusive, and at the same time the first experimental batch of PV was sent to the troops for running-in.
  • Alexfly
    Alexfly 24 November 2020 21: 06
    0
    Well done, the outstanding designer Tokarev, combined the most interesting achievements in the design of short-barreled weapons in his pistol! TT is simple and convenient, not particularly ergonomic, but you can change the cheeks. There is blessing. The fuse is not good enough? You can also correct it, both the Romanians and the Serbs were specially set to sell in the states. I have 34 years of veteran, but I love and cherish. The truth is starting to rust a little.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 24 November 2020 21: 27
      +1
      Disassemble and hold it in a galvanized bath, it will corrode all the rust. And then do not be lazy to lubricate regularly. For ergonomics, I would argue with you, but is it necessary. smile
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 21: 47
        +2
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Disassemble and hold it in a galvanized bath, it will corrode all the rust.

        Maybe Coca-Cola is better? Galvanvanna is not available to everyone.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 24 November 2020 22: 23
          +4
          It's also an option, but then it's better to be a phantom, it will be more poisonous.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 24 November 2020 22: 49
            +3
            Quote: Sea Cat
            It's also an option, but then it's better to be a phantom, it will be more poisonous.

            They poison us with all kinds of nasty things. Oh, how can you hunt to drink natural Baikal. crying Not modern from chemistry, but the one that used to be released from herbs.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 24 November 2020 22: 59
              +4
              "Oh, he is zyist, so what do you give him." laughing
              I would have sipped Soviet Baikal myself, but no. request
      2. Alexfly
        Alexfly 25 November 2020 20: 15
        +1
        Thank you, I’ll hold it, but then you have to rave ... somehow ...
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 25 November 2020 20: 25
          +2
          There is a variant of simple "blackening", only I have never done this and I can not advise anything. Take a look on the net, for sure there is something on this topic.
        2. John22
          John22 4 February 2021 21: 34
          0
          Bluing: disassemble into parts, remove the springs, heat up to 320 g. C, and then dip in linseed oil.
  • beeper
    beeper 24 November 2020 22: 21
    +9
    A separate (completely recoverable during incomplete disassembly) unit with a trigger was also on the Mauser S96 pistol, wasn't it ??! what
    This is, probably, "with a light hand" Bolotin, who wrote the book "Soviet Small Arms", went to a tale about allegedly "Tokarev's first use of a separate USM unit" (she always surprised me, or rather, those who thoughtlessly repeated this having before their eyes "Mauser C96 ")! winked
    By the way, in the same book Bolotin was placed and more suitable, to the topic of the Article, a photo-Fedor Vasilyevich Tokarev, with a file in his hands, stands in a workshop near a locksmith's vice, in which he is clamped manually cut (after all, apart from all his Armory and Military Merits before our Fatherland, who was also a recognized Master of Mechanical Processing, Locksmith and Turner from God and, as long as his strength allowed him, he performed all the critical details of his prototypes himself or with the help of his son, also, in his father's footsteps, who became a gunsmith!) future pistol "TT". yes
    Once, in my youth, I had a chance to familiarize myself with the disassembly and assembly of the "TT", hold it in my hands for a short time and "click empty", it did not come to firing, tk. the gun was someone else's, and all the cartridges were accountable. request
    With its laconic design, general balance, soft trigger, very "sighting" (the target from the "TT" is easily "captured" by the eye and "sits" on the "flat front sight") "front sight and I liked this pistol entirely! good
    The comfort of the grip seemed to me so-so, mediocre (again, I don't know how it would have been when fired)!
    Familiar front-line soldiers (tankers, pilots, infantrymen, including gunsmiths, and after the war, in the service, did a lot with small arms) from the TT pistols they dealt with were far from "enthusiastic" (I even heard this : "rubbish pistol" request ), considered him unreliable because he let them down at the front (especially in winter time and in spring-autumn slush) and led to the death of their front-line comrades, as he was prone to misfires, "accidental shots", "lack of dispatch" cartridges and frequent loss of a magazine (because at least one cartridge remains at a critical moment, even if the magazine is lost, the front-line soldiers violated the "rule" - they drove the cartridge into the chamber and set the trigger on an unreliable "safety platoon", which itself was a prerequisite for " accidental shot ", often with serious injury or death!)!
    Of course, the prerequisites for that front-line unreliability of surrogate "TT" wartime production were laid in, ill-conceived to the end, in many respects "compromise (what is the refusal, in the" improved "serial" TT "sample 1933, from the original, used in the design of" TT "model of 1930, a press-in automatic safety lock in the rear of the pistol grip, without any replacement-addition to the" improved "sample of at least a non-automatic lever safety catch, easily displaced by the thumb of the" shooting hand ", as it was on the Browning-" Kolt "prototypes" TT "!!!)" pistol design even before the war.
    None of the authoritative "selection committee" consisting of prominent Soviet military leaders and "military experts" turned out to be so "Copenhagen" in the arms business and in machine-building production to delve deeply into the design - to be able to analyze it "to the subtleties" and foresee the obvious difficulties with the reproduction of the declared technical and operational characteristics with inadequate quality of materials (especially spring steel for the wire of critical springs: combat trigger, return and ejector shutter casing, magazine retainer and feed spring, as well as plates for making the spring shutter of the shutter delay axis) and their mechanical heat treatment under wartime production conditions by low-skilled workers using super-worn equipment, or even by hand (modern Pakistani handicraftsmen-gunsmiths, talented nuggets, artisanally making fully functional replicas of "TT" and cartridges for them from high-quality modern steels, is empty b and in some sheds with a minimum of machines and almost "on the knee", manually - not to give an example - these are already experienced specialists of a fairly high class, and not our Soviet "shock", for 12 hours or more - "yet you will not fulfill the shift norm! ", month after month, year after year, the valiant home front workers working almost seven days a week are overwhelmed and half-starved women, adolescents and quite children who stood at the machines on wooden boxes, often residents from the village who had no ideas about weapons production!) ?! what
    These "shoals" of the design and "difficulties in mastering" the serial production of "TT", fairly manifested itself even during operation in the troops in peacetime (which led to the pre-war pistol competition to replace the "TT" itself!) And "climbed with terrible force "during the war, ultimately causing the death of many of its" operators ", or even accidental victims among our soldiers and commanders (and even after the war, in the army and in the militia, the list of accidental victims of the TT pistol caused by its a kind of "simple design", it just grew! For example, escorting a "detained" suspicious citizen "to the department, the policeman pushed him in the back with his," TeTeshnik "," for an ostratus distorted ", a shot rang out on the spot, suspected the intention of the The examination showed that the trigger of the pistol was worn out and the trigger worked even without pressing the trigger, only from a slight shift of the shutter back!)! request

    So, modern and future Russian gunsmiths should diligently study the history of the arms business, remember and take into account in their designs the experience (both positive and negative!) And the best "best practices" of their glorious predecessors, thoughtfully and steadily eliminate "jambs" and "prerequisites "their improper manufacture and repair, unreliable operation in the ranks and in battle! soldier
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 24 November 2020 23: 10
      +3
      Greetings to the Cat from the Cat! smile
      Great addition, as always! As a child, I was familiar with an officer of the UGRO, who had a TT with a cartridge in the chamber (then in Nalchik it was impossible to do otherwise), slipped out from behind a trouser belt, fell on a step and shot a man in the leg. He had to lie on the bed for a month, and how did he then praise Makarov when they received it: "This is a fuse! Even if you hit it with a sledgehammer, it won't fire!" smile
      1. beeper
        beeper 25 November 2020 01: 31
        +1
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Greetings to the Cat from the Cat! smile
        Great addition, as always! As a child, I was familiar with an officer of the UGRO, who had a TT with a cartridge in the chamber (then in Nalchik it was impossible to do otherwise), slipped out from behind a trouser belt, fell on a step and shot a man in the leg. He had to lie on the bed for a month, and how did he then praise Makarov when they received it: "This is a fuse! Even if you hit it with a sledgehammer, it won't fire!" smile

        hi Mutually, Comrade Constantine, Kotu Greetings from Kota! yes
        Because of the small touch screen, accidentally, already twice, I lose my answer to you, as well as for some reason my phone "froze" for a long time, when I tried to Plyusanut, it was not added, I had to "reboot", and now the Site writes to me that I have already "rated", alas ... But not the point, let's not talk about the "sad"! smile
        Your "life story" with praise for the Makarov pistol is like a Balm for my Soul - You Raised Your Mood! good yes
        After all, I am the same unshakable fan of "Makarov", like you, my friend, an unshakable loyal fan of "Walter" R38! wink
        And about "TT" I read a lot of similar "typical stories" and I myself heard from our veterans (by the way, many of our military front-line soldiers positively characterized the German P38, placing them higher than the "Parabellum" and praising both for their larger 9-mm caliber, which, even with a tangential wound, immediately "shocked" - immobilized the enemy!) the army and the police! request
        But "TT" was our first domestic pistol for the Red Army - there was no real experience in creating, mass production and operation of our own army pistol!
        Therefore, the "childhood diseases" of the design! And vague requirements for the safety of use (as they say, based on the personal preferences of the "first red marshal" and his comrade-in-arms, the famous cavalryman "First Horse" ?!)!
        After the Great Patriotic War, the comprehensive experience of the combat use of our own and captured pistols helped to develop the correct requirements for the caliber, cartridge power and design of personal firearms! winked
        But the 9-mm prototype of the future PM, which won the post-war competition, did not immediately become the Makarov Pistol that we now know!
        It took many years and continuous hard work on the serial pistol of Nikolai Fedorovich Makarov himself and thousands more gunsmiths who invested their Talents, Labor, Soul and Experience in the design and production of PM!
        My Senior Comrade Konstantin, Good luck and good health to you and your close ones and your friends! drinks
        Peaceful sky over our heads to all of us!
        Sincerely Yours Pischak! soldier
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 25 November 2020 01: 41
          +2
          Thank you for your good and kind answer and all the best to you! smile drinks
          1. kytx
            kytx 25 November 2020 09: 09
            0
            I like AS Pushkin do not want to join your dialogue
            :)
            but
            I want to say
            each pistol fills differently
            you are both right
            but TT is made of shit sticks under the budget of the then RF
            under a cartridge that, well, at least somehow could be produced
            well, they did what they could
            I think Browning911 is much nicer
            but there was TT and there was no American

            that's the case
            if you knock someone out there, you either leave a signature
            or not
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 25 November 2020 17: 14
              +1
              if you bring someone down there, you either leave a signature or not

              What are you talking about, dear?
              1. kytx
                kytx 27 November 2020 17: 39
                0
                I don't remember anymore
                well, I was taught that after firing (the gun remains in place)
                that is, there was no such garbage like where you lost the weapon entrusted to you by the Motherland
                RHBZM
                1. kytx
                  kytx 27 November 2020 17: 40
                  0
                  well we have a one way trip
            2. Alexfly
              Alexfly 30 November 2020 12: 37
              0
              it would have been much easier to produce 9x25 Mauser export, but the revolutionaries liked the S96 Mauser. And they decided to make a crap for Soviet designers with 7,62x25 ...
              1. Michael HORNET
                Michael HORNET 27 December 2020 10: 09
                0
                Yes, it would be better if they immediately made 7.62x27 with an ogival bullet
                Based on submachine guns
                He would have worked in a TT pistol.
        2. Alexfly
          Alexfly 26 November 2020 13: 09
          0
          I dropped it on the floor, but several times, TT on the safety platoon, though without a cartridge in the chamber, and a cartridge case with a primer in the barrel, nothing happened, should I probably drop it from the second floor? And the store for some reason does not fall out. What to do? Although, if you wear thick gloves, the sensitivity decreases ..
  • Terran ghost
    Terran ghost 25 November 2020 14: 01
    0
    there was nothing wrong with copying

    In the case of TT, there really was nothing shameful.
    The patent for the M1911 pistol expired on February 14, 1928. On February 15, 1928, the design passed into the public domain.
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US984519A/en?oq=US984519
    self-loading rifles SVT, which by the beginning of World War II had no analogues at all

    Well, let's put analogs at least in the form of the American Garanda M1 rifle. But actually, yes, by the beginning of World War II, only the Soviet Union and the United States had self-loading rifles that were put into service and put into mass production, intended for use as the main weapon of infantrymen.
  • Terran ghost
    Terran ghost 25 November 2020 14: 17
    0
    And in general, our directors had some kind of craving to insert weapons into their films that had long gone out of circulation, but had to portray something cosmic in the plot.

    Tellingly, not only among domestic ones. The reason is most likely that rather exotic by the standards of an ordinary layman, samples look much more reliable as an extraterrestrial or futuristic weapon.
  • Kamaz
    Kamaz 25 November 2020 14: 21
    0
    [media = https: // shoot from the 1903 Browning]
  • Looking for
    Looking for 25 November 2020 16: 23
    -4
    some kind of geek fucked up all the Soviet designers - and what are the "Russians"? - but nothing. are discussing.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 26 November 2020 06: 41
    +1
    This does not diminish the merits of our outstanding weapons designer Fyodor Vasilyevich Tokarev,

    And here "diminishes" or "does not diminish .....". Take the best pistol - copy it and launch it en masse at your facilities under your cartridge (which is more powerful than the original. Taking into account metallurgy in the USSR and the qualifications and number of specialists in the USSR 30s This is not an easy task even now.
  • uporov65
    uporov65 29 November 2020 15: 00
    0
    What a handsome man he is. For so many years, the Americans have cherished their legend (in the sense of the Colt M1911), but we just took it and threw it away. It's a shame for my little brother.