Azerbaijan and Armenia: unmanned confrontation

Comparison of UAV characteristics of the armies of Azerbaijan and Armenia from IISS

A characteristic feature of the current conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh is the widespread use of unmanned aerial vehicles of various classes. Such equipment is in service on both sides and is actively used to solve all major tasks. At the same time, the unmanned forces of Azerbaijan and Armenia cannot be called equal, which affects the course of the battles. Let's consider the main samples of UAVs of two countries.

UAV in the Air Force of Azerbaijan

Since the beginning of the last decade, the Azerbaijani Air Force has purchased and mastered modern unmanned vehicles of all major classes. Thanks to this, by now a fairly large UAV fleet has been created, capable of solving a wide range of tasks. Its potential has been confirmed in recent months, during the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

UAV Aerostar assembled in Azerbaijan. Photo Wikimedia Commons

It should be noted that the Azerbaijani UAV fleet is critically dependent on foreign countries. Only samples of foreign development, own Drones missing. The bulk of the equipment, incl. the most important, was purchased ready-made. At the same time, it was possible to organize the assembly of some UAVs at their own enterprises, but with the highest share of imported components.

The Orbiter Mini series of light reconnaissance UAVs developed by the Israeli company Aeronautics Defense have been adopted. There are three modifications of this technique with optics on board. The Orbiter 1K unified loitering ammunition is also used. Since the middle of the last decade, the assembly of such drones has been carried out in Azerbaijan. The Israeli-made Elbit Skylark 3 devices also belong to the lung category.

Turkish drone Bayraktar TB2 - the main "star" News. Wikimedia Commons Photos

The fleet of medium reconnaissance UAVs includes several different types of equipment. The Elbit Hermes 450 were one of the first to enter service, and the Hermes 900 were later purchased. Israel also supplied IAI Heron and IAI Searcher drones. Aeronautics Aerostar products of the same class are produced in Azerbaijan under license. As follows from the available data, a total of several dozen complexes of these types are in service.

The Turkish-made Bayraktar TB2 medium reconnaissance and strike UAVs are of particular importance for the Azerbaijani Air Force. According to various sources, there are already dozens of such products, and new deliveries are possible in the near future. The UAV of this model, with a takeoff weight of up to 650 kg, is capable of carrying several types of Turkish-made guided missiles and bombs. The strike potential of "Bayraktar" is used in the most active way to combat enemy ground targets.

Downed "Bayraktar". Photo Lostarmour.info

Given the current trends in the development of unmanned aviation, The Air Force of Azerbaijan in the mid-tenths began to actively purchase the so-called. loitering ammunition. Even then, Israeli IAI Harop ammunition was purchased and used for the first time in a real operation. Later, Elbit SkyStriker and Orbiter 1K entered service. Loitering ammunition was purchased ready-made in the amount of 50-100 units.

Thus, a sufficiently large and developed fleet of unmanned aerial vehicles has been created in the Air Force and Army Aviation of Azerbaijan. There are dozens of light and medium reconnaissance and reconnaissance-strike vehicles. Hundreds of loitering ammunition were also purchased. All this technique is actively used in Nagorno-Karabakh and demonstrates its potential. With its help, reconnaissance and identification of targets are carried out, at which loitering ammunition or strike UAVs are then guided.

Loitering ammunition IAI Harop, which did not hit the target. Photo Lostarmour.info

However, not everything goes smoothly, and there are losses. A number of UAVs, incl. the much-touted Bayraktar TB2 is hit by ground fire. In addition, there are cases when loitering ammunition missed or fell without finding a target. However, with all such problems, Azerbaijan continues the combat use of drones, and Armenia suffers significant losses because of them.

Possibilities of Armenia

Due to limited capabilities, the Armenian armed forces have not yet been able to build a large and developed unmanned air fleet. At the same time, all possible measures are being taken, and new models are being put into service. Most of the Armenian UAVs are of local origin. The development and production of such equipment is carried out by several local companies, mainly using imported components.

Downed SkyStriker ammunition. Photo Lostarmour.info

The smallest characteristics are shown by the UL-100 and UL-300 light aircraft type drones. They are capable of conducting reconnaissance at distances of up to 50 km, and, if necessary, are equipped with a warhead and become patrolling ammunition. Also, the Baze complex with a light UAV is used as a means of observation and reconnaissance.

Since the beginning of the last decade, the army has received drones from the Krunk family. They are classified as middle class UAVs; maximum take-off weight reaches 60 kg, payload - up to 20 kg. To date, three modifications of "Krunk" have been created with different features. All of them are intended for reconnaissance and target designation, for which they carry an optical-electronic unit. The average X-55 drone, created in the mid-tenths, has similar characteristics and capabilities. To date, it has been modernized with an increase in characteristics.

The battlefield "through the eyes" of an Azerbaijani UAV. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan

Attention is paid to the concept of loitering ammunition. So, at distances up to 8 km, it is possible to use a disposable quadrocopter "Bzez" with a 4,6-kg warhead. It is known to develop other products in this class.

In terms of the total number and nomenclature, the unmanned aviation of the Armenian Air Force is seriously inferior to its Azerbaijani competitors. This is due to objective economic, technical and organizational constraints. At the same time, attempts are being made to remedy the situation, and some of them are successful.

Armenian unmanned complex "Krunk-25-1". Photo Wikimedia Commons

However, it is very far from parity. So far, the drones of the Armenian Air Force can only conduct reconnaissance, and the strike capabilities are provided by extremely few light patrolling ammunition. At the same time, the UAVs carry out target designation for other fire weapons, superior in power to unmanned aircraft. In general, the potential of drones is limited, which affects the overall capabilities of the army.

Practice and conclusions

Having economic advantages over its neighbors, Azerbaijan has been able to partially modernize its armed forces in recent years. One of the foundations of this renovation was the construction of a developed fleet UAVs of all main classes. Armenia did not have such opportunities, but also tried to keep up with the times. As a result, at the moment both countries have their own parks of drones of different classes and types, but they can not be called equal in any way.

Product X-55. Photo Wikimedia Commons

The current conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, in general, does not show any fundamentally new ideas in the context of unmanned aircraft. And before him, it was well known that UAVs are a convenient and effective means of reconnaissance, that the use of attack drones allows you to hit targets without any risks to people, and that the fight against such equipment is quite difficult. It is also clearly shown once again that an army without a developed and modern air defense system, ready to repel current threats, is exposed to increased risks due to UAVs.

Apparently, the armies of all developed countries are watching the conflict and the actions of their parties with great interest, with special attention paid to the use of modern unmanned systems. Analysis of the incoming data will allow you to clarify your plans for the future and improve new samples of unmanned vehicles. In addition, current events will certainly be taken into account in the development of air defense.

The conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia has clearly demonstrated that UAVs of all main classes can now be in service with not only large, rich and industrialized countries. Such equipment is necessary for other states as well, since it allows to increase the combat effectiveness of the army with small forces. Accordingly, armed forces that neglect unmanned aircraft seriously limit their development.

Comments

[Brands]

And our Orion and the Hunter? Eh, rather b.

[BDRM 667]

In the history of Orbiter 1K deliveries by Israel to Azerbaijan, there is a scandalously noticeable dark spot:

The Israeli financial publication Bizportal reported that Aeronautics Defense Systems, which makes attack drones, has issued an exchange communiqué. It says that the Israeli Defense Ministry has blocked a deal for the supply of Orbiter 1K drones to one of the countries, breaking a $ 20 million contract. At the same time, the details specified in the document make it possible to say with confidence that we are talking about Azerbaijan. The unnamed country, referred to in the communique, has a BA credit rating by Moody's - only two international ADS clients qualify for this criterion: Serbia and Azerbaijan. In addition, a plant has been built on the territory of this country that produces spare parts for drones under an ADS license. There is no such plant in Serbia, but in Azerbaijan there is.

The model of the aircraft, which, according to the communiqué, was banned from supplying the company, also attracts attention. This is Orbiter 1K - the one that figured in the scandal caused by the publication in the Israeli newspaper Maariv.

An article by prominent Israeli journalist Yossi Melman stated that the company's employees, at the request of the Azerbaijani military, took part in an attack on Armenian positions in Nagorno-Karabakh. The video footage of the attack was allegedly going to be shown later on Azerbaijani television "to demonstrate national pride and military might." However, due to the fact that the operators refused to comply with this request and managers who did not have sufficient experience had to operate the drones, none of the servicemen of the self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh Republic died. ADS denies all allegations, and the Department of Defense has launched an investigation, the results of which, however, are still unknown. At the same time, the deliveries referred to in the communiqué were planned for 2017-2018.

[Civil]

Quote: Merkit

And our Orion and the Hunter? Eh, rather b.

These are heavy UAVs. We need massive species like loitering ammunition and medium strikers. It was not even a bell, but an alarm. It's no longer funny, until recently, the military laughed at "your kompukters are solid toys", then "why do we need this aeromodelling with radio-controlled airplanes", even local sofa experts practiced wit.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Yes right now they will come to explain that the whole problem is in the belligerents. They do not know how to disguise and control air defense assets. A classic excuse this year.

[ccsr]

Quote: Civil

We need massive species like loitering ammunition and medium strikers. It was not even a bell, but an alarm.

Do not bother you that "loitering ammunition" will cost much more than an unmanned reconnaissance aircraft and a modern self-propelled gun, which can accurately hit targets at distances of tens of kilometers when they start working together. All the same, it is sometimes necessary to take a calculator and calculate what is more effective in low-intensity combat operations, especially if a protracted conflict is foreseen. Yes, even in bad weather, and countering electronic warfare, modern self-propelled guns have much more advantages than "loitering ammunition", which can be destroyed even with small arms.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: ccsr

loitering ammunition "will cost much more than an unmanned reconnaissance aircraft and a modern self-propelled gun, which can accurately hit targets at distances of tens of kilometers

For an accurate defeat, you need "smart projectiles", they are definitely not cheaper. If you use ordinary ones, it will come out more expensive. The consumption of conventional shells is 5-6 times higher than that of "smart" shells. Accordingly, production, logistics, storage will end up being much more expensive. Plus the military aspect, a guided projectile hits the target from the first shot, uncontrollable ones can hide until they hit. It is also not always possible to deliver a large number of shells to a position.

[ccsr]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

For an accurate defeat, you need "smart projectiles", they are definitely not cheaper. If you use ordinary ones, it will come out more expensive. The consumption of conventional shells is 5-6 times higher than that of "smart" shells.

I do not want to dispute your conclusions, but simply recommend a very interesting article from the Western Military District of 2002, where the military specialist, Lieutenant Colonel V. Rusinov, describes in some detail the advantages and prospects of 155 mm shells:

State and prospects for the development of 155-mm field artillery ammunition abroad

At present, the ground forces abroad have a large number of artillery ammunition of various types. Some samples were put into service about 40 years ago. In connection with the development of artillery weapons and the improvement of combat tactics in foreign countries, measures are being taken to update the existing types of artillery ammunition, which are carried out in two main directions:
- Firstly, the modernization of the models already adopted for service is being carried out in order to increase the firing range and unify. The command of the ground forces of foreign countries, using modern technologies, seeks not only to extend the service life of ammunition, but also to change their purpose.
- Secondly, programs are being implemented to create new types of multifunctional, primarily cluster, artillery ammunition, providing high firing accuracy at a greater distance.

http://www.soldiering.ru/army/artillery/ammunition-155-mm.php

[OgnennyiKotik]

Naturally, UAVs are not a replacement for artillery, artillery was, is and will be. They are complementary to each other. We also need reconnaissance UAVs and artillery and kamikaze drones and strike UAVs. All of them are needed and do not replace each other. I mean, the "cheaper" argument is not an argument. Just different means for different purposes.

[ccsr]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

We also need reconnaissance UAVs and artillery and kamikaze drones and strike UAVs.

Will the same participants in the war in Karabakh have enough money for everything? You still really assess the capabilities of the parties in such wars and their financial capabilities to purchase various weapons.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Azerbaijan has had enough. It's not really that expensive.

[OgnennyiKotik]

By the way, here is the plan to reform the USMC. Increasing the role of UAVs and missile weapons, abandoning heavy equipment, reducing (but not abandoning) artillery. They are not preparing for old wars, but new ones.

[ccsr]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

By the way, here's a plan to reform the USMC.

A good comparison for the armies of Armenia and Azerbaijan - they have yet to build aircraft carriers, and then it will be possible to create a Marine Corps to follow the path of the United States ...

[Peter rybak]

Quote: ccsr

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

By the way, here's a plan to reform the USMC.

A good comparison for the armies of Armenia and Azerbaijan - they have yet to build aircraft carriers, and then it will be possible to create a Marine Corps to follow the path of the United States ...

By the way, Azerbaijan has a Marine Corps as part of the Navy. Number of 2000 people.

[ccsr]

Quote: Peter Rybak

By the way, Azerbaijan has a Marine Corps as part of the Navy. Number of 2000 people.

This is a typical example of monkeying, and this is characteristic of the former Soviet republics, which are very fond of demonstrating how advanced they are in military affairs and copying Western military standards. Well, think for yourself, what kind of corps of the Marine Corps of the Azerbaijani Navy can we talk about, if their number does not even exceed the regiment of the Marine Corps. So this is a common profanity and nothing more.

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

This is a typical example of monkey behavior, and this is typical of the former Soviet republics.

Perhaps this is the wisdom of the military and political leadership of Azerbaijan. The main oil fields are located in the Caspian Sea. 2000 marines are not enough to protect and defend the lion's share of the national product.

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

Perhaps this is the wisdom of the military and political leadership of Azerbaijan.

Well, if it is only perceived as irony.

Quote: gsev

2000 marines are not enough to protect and defend the lion's share of the national product.

Why should they protect someone there, if the intergovernmental agreements of the countries of that region, periodic overflights by airplanes and the passage of border ships are enough for this. It makes sense to keep 2000 people for this, and even create a separate type or branch of the military, as is done by the Americans. After all, the training program for the marines is more expensive than the simple infantry, and some equipment and weapons are different.

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

if the intergovernmental agreements of the countries of that region are enough for this, periodic overflights by aircraft and the passage of border ships

As far as I remember, Iranian aviation flew over the Azerbaijani oil fields during the negotiation process. It took the appearance of Turkish aviation to put a limit on this. At one time, Beluna tried to seize the Russian oil field. Let's imagine a similar situation with Azerbaijan. I will assume that in a busy period, each object needs to be reinforced with a platoon or squad of marines. (The squad is guarding, the squad is asleep, the squad is busy with household work.) It is necessary to rotate the guard of the oil fields and have a reserve. Yugoslavia was not saved by the Helsinki Agreement from the redistribution of its borders by force.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

By the way, here is the plan to reform the USMC. Increasing the role of UAVs and missile weapons, abandoning heavy equipment, reducing (but not abandoning) artillery. They are not preparing for old wars, but new ones.

The ILC is preparing for a very specific war - the capture and retention of chains of islands by its own forces (without the Navy), thus limiting the area of ​​operation of the enemy fleet. It makes no sense to compare it with the army - the main task of the reform is precisely the departure from the concept of the "second army", and the transition of the ILC to solving its own tasks that do not duplicate the army ones.

[OgnennyiKotik]

In general, I agree. The ILC is a vivid example, the same trends in the Army, Air Force, Navy. In all types of the US Armed Forces of different classes of UAVs, there are more than 11 units and their number is growing. The situation is the same with missile weapons. By the way, the US Army has officially selected the SM-000 and Tomahawk as medium-range surface-to-surface missiles.

[Herman 4223]

The cheapest shock drone, for example, a Polish one with a warhead of one cologram, is 12 thousand American rubles per set, in the USA a similar toy with a warhead weighing 2,5 kg is 70 thousand. Harop for 100 thousand. A high-explosive fragmentation projectile of several hundred dollars. Bch 122 mm 21kg, 152 mm 48 kg.

[ccsr]

Quote: Herman 4223

in the United States, a similar toy with a warhead weighing 2,5 kg 70 thousand. Harop for 100 thousand. A high-explosive fragmentation projectile of several hundred dollars. Bch 122 mm 21kg, 152 mm 48 kg.

You noticed everything correctly, and if you take into account that there are a lot of such projectiles, and they do not require special storage, then taking into account the cost and speed of defeat in any conditions, cannon artillery can give odds to any drone. It's just that not everyone knows how to count money, as well as the fact that often newfangled toys make a great impression on fans of computer games, but those who see all the problems from another level are very cautious about such products.

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

cannon artillery can give odds to any drone.

Drones can destroy cannon artillery on the march. It is also easier to concentrate drones in key areas of the front. Having created the required concentration, you can destroy the enemy's air defense on the critical sector of the front. After that, attack other air defense means from the rear by introducing the UAV through the area with neutralized air defense, forcing the enemy air defense to defend against attacks from all sides. Having knocked out air defense, you can switch to tanks and self-propelled guns, then artillery, and then infantry. And you can destroy a couple of important bridges behind enemy lines, a fuel depot or tankers on the march, depriving the enemy's equipment of fuel or forcing him to withdraw air defense to the rear to protect important objects. In addition, apparently the march of tanks for 500 km and the training of tankers will cost more than the cost of a UAV capable of destroying them

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

Drones can destroy cannon artillery on the march.

Drones can be destroyed by air defense systems even before they approach the convoy.

Quote: gsev

It is also easier to concentrate drones in key areas of the front.

In non-flying weather, they can all be destroyed in the place of deployment with one MLRS fire raid if their bases are revealed.

Quote: gsev

Having knocked out air defense, you can switch to tanks and self-propelled guns, then artillery, and then infantry.

You first knock them out, otherwise something in Syria is not very successful in attacking our bases with drones.

Quote: gsev

And you can destroy

In war, much is possible, just first you need to take into account that against your "successful" scenario, the opposing side can use an equally successful scenario for the destruction of drones using reconnaissance and sabotage groups.

Quote: gsev

In addition, apparently the march of tanks for 500 km and the training of tankers will cost more than the cost of a UAV capable of destroying them

And why are tanks obligatory, and even on a 500 km march? And why can't aviation destroy enemy drones while approaching the convoy? By the way, there was a video on the network how the plane hits the drone during the war on 08.08.08 and the cost of the rocket was much cheaper than the cost of the drone.

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

Drones can be destroyed by air defense systems even before they approach the convoy.

Before the war, air defense was evenly distributed over the threatening areas. The enemy drone reveals the location of the air defense. Long-range air defense is destroyed by longer-range drones. Long-range air defense with a massive raid from different directions with cheap drones, simply with an inertial control system, preliminarily blinding enemy EW locators. Either you turn off the S-500 or are forced to shoot down all the missiles that are aimed at the working radar beam.

Quote: ccsr

By the way, there was a video on the network of how the plane hits the drone during the war on 08.08.08, and the cost of the rocket was much cheaper than the cost of the drone.

As I understand it, the cost of all shot down drones in 45 days of the war in Karabakh was less than the cost of Russian aircraft shot down by Georgians in 5 days. Armenians fought much more intelligently and courageously than Georgians. The air industry of Turkey could seem to be able to make up for these losses of Azerbaijan in a week of work. The Russian budget is able to recover the losses of Russian aviation in the 2008 war in about 3 months or six months.

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

Before the war, air defense was evenly distributed over the threatening areas. The enemy drone reveals the location of the air defense. Long-range air defense is destroyed by longer-range drones.

This is all beautiful in words, but there is the question of the price of drones and the question of countermeasures in the form of electronic warfare and the work of fighters - how will you take all this into account if the other side has already debugged it? By the way, who told you that the ground forces' air defense cannot maneuver and change positions at least 2-3 times a day?

Quote: gsev

As I understand it, the cost of all shot down drones in 45 days of the war in Karabakh was less than the cost of Russian aircraft shot down by Georgians in 5 days.

Where did you get such data, especially since we have no idea how many of them were destroyed, how many just crashed, how many were struck at false targets. As for our downed aircraft, unfortunately this happened only because the top military leadership first showed cowardice, and then, deciding to use aviation, did not even give time to prepare for a combat mission in terms of providing reconnaissance information about Georgia's air defense positions.

Quote: gsev

... Armenians fought much more intelligent and courageous than Georgians.

This is all an abstract idea, if only because the number of troops and the enemy were in different categories.

Quote: gsev

The air industry of Turkey could seem to be able to make up for these losses of Azerbaijan in a week of work.

For what money? Who will pay and with what?

Quote: gsev

The Russian budget is able to recover the losses of Russian aviation in the 2008 war in about 3 months or six months.

We have 5-6 strategic aircraft that can strike any capital of the world so that any conventional war will be over within XNUMX hours. Do you seriously think that we will be babysitting a real enemy like a "proud president" chewing a tie? Even if we have losses, we will still achieve our goal - this is in our military doctrine.

[Civil]

Quote: ccsr

You are not embarrassed that "loitering ammunition" will cost much more than an unmanned reconnaissance aircraft and a modern self-propelled gun, which can hit targets quite accurately at distances of tens of kilometers when they start working together

Doesn't bother, you still have to hit from the position of fire. And constantly moving an entire sau is more expensive than loitering in search (waiting) for the target of an uav-ammunition. So why a scout if the UAV already has its own means of destruction. Accuracy will still be higher when the weapon is directly over the target.

[ccsr]

Quote: Civil

Doesn't bother, you still have to hit from the position of fire.

You may not be embarrassed, but the one who will command on the battlefield after the report that UAVs cannot take off due to bad weather will be very bad to reflect the enemy's offensive.
Read at your leisure an article by Lieutenant Colonel V. Rusinov from the ZVO magazine, he described in detail the prospects for 155 mm shells.
http://www.soldiering.ru/army/artillery/ammunition-155-mm.php

[Civil]

Quote: ccsr

You may not be embarrassed, but the one who will command on the battlefield after the report that UAVs cannot take off due to bad weather will be very bad to reflect the enemy's offensive.
Read at your leisure an article by Lieutenant Colonel V. Rusinov from the ZVO magazine, he described in detail the prospects for 155 mm shells.

Once again, all the conflicts of this year, and partially of the previous ones, have shown that progress cannot be ignored further. You can argue as long as you like that the bullet is foolish, and the bayonet is great. Where will the ship sail without masts and sails, when coal or fuel oil runs out. A lot of time has already been spent by such tediousness.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Already a classic.

[ccsr]

Quote: Civil

You can argue as long as you like that the bullet is a fool, and the bayonet is great.

Do not evade, but simply answer the question of how to use drones in bad weather and under the influence of modern electronic warfare equipment, even in low-intensity conflicts. Should the war be stopped before the flying weather is established?

[Civil]

Quote: ccsr

Quote: Civil

You can argue as long as you like that the bullet is a fool, and the bayonet is great.

Do not evade, but simply answer the question of how to use drones in bad weather and under the influence of modern electronic warfare equipment, even in low-intensity conflicts. Should the war be stopped before the flying weather is established?

1. What is the bad weather for a UAV? Hurricane? It all depends on the equipment. And yes, the weather is the same on the battlefield for all parties.
2. Modern means of electronic warfare have shown sporadic results so far and there are no statistics on them.
3. The UAV is just a branch of the military, not the basis. New, fast-paced. As in their time, aviation and tanks.

[ccsr]

Quote: Civil

1. What is the bad weather for a UAV? Hurricane? It all depends on the equipment.

Take an interest in the success story of the Germans in the Ardennes in 1944 - then you will find out how the Allied front nearly ceased to exist.

Quote: Civil

2. Modern means of electronic warfare have shown sporadic results so far and there are no statistics on them.

Who told you that? In Syria, our electronic warfare systems have shown themselves brilliantly, and not even all the cruise missiles of the Americans with a massive launch were able to reach their targets. Why did it happen?

Quote: Civil

The UAV is just a branch of the military, not the basis. New, rapidly developing

I do not oppose UAVs, and I do not deny their usefulness and prospects, but you apparently do not understand well what serious devices of multimillion-dollar value are and those simple devices at the level of home-made devices that were used by the Azerbaijani troops. Well, one cannot hope that everything will be so easy, if only because simple UAVs are too vulnerable for electronic warfare and depend on weather conditions. This is why often more traditional means of war can be of more benefit to advancing troops than several successful drone attacks. Have you ever wondered why drone attacks on our bases in Syria had virtually no effect?

[Krasnodar]

1) The success was overshadowed by the unexpectedly tough resistance of the American airborne assault in one of the key n / a.
2) Tomahawks of the first generation, which were disposed of during training operations as close as possible to combat conditions (by an attack of a third world country), worked out the coordination of the US Navy with the Air Force - accordingly, the RF Armed Forces also worked something there, the question is how much electronic warfare showed itself and where and how - on AWACS aircraft? By means of missile navigation? By communication?
3) UAVs of the Harop type are not vulnerable for electronic warfare at the current level of technology development.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Krasnodar

1) The success was overshadowed by the unexpectedly tough resistance of the American airborne assault in one of the key n / a.

He-he-he ... in fact, according to the original plan of the operation, the Germans did not plan to take Bastogne - the city had to be bypassed and blocked. The Germans simply did not have the strength to simultaneously storm the city and dash to the crossings - and they concentrated on the main goal. As a result, the Germans flew into a classic trap in the German style - with a "corner post" on the flank of the breakthrough, and even sitting on a communications hub. But when they realized this, it was already too late: the 20-strong group of "screaming eagles", the battle group of the 10th TD (US), sappers and artillerymen with 105-mm and 155-mm artillery could no longer get out of the city. And then Patton's tanks approached the "corner post" and the second stage of the classic German-style operation began - cutting the wedge.
In short, the Yankees fed the Germans their favorite dish. Moreover, there could be two corner posts - but Saint-Vit 7th TD (US) did not keep it.

[Krasnodar]

Exactly

[ccsr]

Quote: Krasnodar

The success was overshadowed by the unexpectedly tough resistance of the American airborne assault in one of the key n / a.

Complete garbage - it was the impossibility, due to weather conditions, to support the allied troops with aviation that allowed the Germans to conduct successful operations and capture tens of thousands of prisoners.

Quote: Krasnodar

First generation tomahawks that were disposed of at a time as close to combat conditions as possible

Do you want to prove that they are inferior to the UAVs that were used in Karabakh? You are still that "specialist" in cruise missiles, believe you, do not respect yourself ...

Quote: Krasnodar

UAVs of the Harop type are not vulnerable for electronic warfare at the current level of technology development.

Is this just another chatter of the Israelis, or was it reported to you in the Russian Defense Ministry?

[Krasnodar]

1) Rather, the effect of surprise. Yes and sleep success only lasted a few days

[Krasnodar]

1) Did not expect and overslept - from there the effect lasted only a few days
2) Are you saying that AKs are inferior to a hand grenade and an RPG is superior to a sniper rifle? These are different types of weapons
3) No, this is a simple knowledge of the principle of communication of the drone

[Egor53]

"Harop-type UAVs are not vulnerable to electronic warfare at the current level of technology development."

Until 2015, it was argued that Tomahawks are invulnerable for electronic warfare. And in fact it turned out that our electronic warfare put practically all of them in the ground.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Egor53

"Harop-type UAVs are not vulnerable to electronic warfare at the current level of technology development."

Until 2015, it was argued that Tomahawks are invulnerable for electronic warfare. And in fact it turned out that our electronic warfare put practically all of them in the ground.

How? )) Have you interrupted the control of the cruise missiles?

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Imobile

EW is not a WEAPON OF DEFENSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hear this couch experts !!!!! This is an offensive weapon !!! After switching on, a few minutes later, a rocket will arrive, guided by an electronic warfare signal. It is useless in defense, but in attack these minutes will be enough to have success!

Hard case go to school ignorant.

4. Radars do not detect small drones, even put them in 5 layers.

Cool. Whatever nonsense you are, EVERYTHING IS COURSE IN LIFE.

5. The price of a drone is incomparable with the price of an anti-missile! That is, if some spend a million rubles on drones, then a billion dollars must be spent on anti-missiles!

You are the child of congenital illiteracy. Here is, for example, the UAV Orbiter-II, made in Israel. It costs about $ 700, or, for example, a Harop kamikaze UAV with a price of about $ 000. And there is, for example, the American RVV AiM-600, last year the US Air Force purchased them at a price of $ 000. And then there are Russian SAMs 9M492 (Pantsyr) and 000M9 (Tor), and they cost about $ 335 and $ 9, respectively.

[Peter rybak]

Quote: ccsr

What is the bad weather for a UAV? Hurricane? It all depends on the equipment.

Sorry to interfere with your dialogue. In 1998, the American Aerosonde UAV crossed the Atlantic Ocean at different altitudes. And he went through storms, and other bad weather. True, his functions were not military, but he transmitted meteorological information regularly.

[ccsr]

Quote: Peter Rybak

In 1998, the American Aerosonde UAV crossed the Atlantic Ocean at different altitudes.

Here V. Chkalov crossed the North Pole even before the war, and our strategic aviation only at the beginning of the war was able to organize several raids on Berlin, and then only at the end of the war could they do this. Therefore, do not interfere in a bunch of UAVs specialized for meteorological missions and those that are used in a combat situation under different climatic conditions.

[Imobile]

EW will be destroyed after a few minutes of work. And electronic warfare does not really work on drones. Even in the Chinese, after the suppression of GPS, they used to stop and stood before the discharge, now the edits have been made, they begin to move either to the base on the camera or simply look for GPS leaving the interference beam. And on the expensive ones there are directional antennas, and everything is violet, electronic warfare no rab and bad weather 3 days a year

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

Don't shy away, just answer the question,

The journal Rodina cited a transcript of a military meeting of the high command of the Red Army in the early 1930s, when it was believed that in the near future, despite the noted speed of development, aviation would not be able to inflict any damage on modern British and French battleships.

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

The journal Rodina provided a transcript of a military meeting of the high command of the Red Army in the early 1930s.

This does not mean anything, because such meetings happen at least once every two months, and then much is not reflected in military documents. By the way, who "counted" specifically from the top military leadership? Maybe Tukhachevsky, then it's clear ...

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

Maybe Tukhachevsky,

I noticed that Shaposhnikov listened more.

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

I noticed that Shaposhnikov listened more.

Here is his opinion, I would have learned with interest from the transcript - but it is unlikely that he was a speaker, since he did not discuss much. Although the ideas of the early thirties, in my opinion, were too crude, and we did not have enough funds for the army, so they got out based on the possibilities.

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

Here is his opinion, I would have learned with interest from the transcript - but it is unlikely that he was a speaker

I read the magazine in the middle of 1990. I forgot a lot. It seems that Shaposhnikov was leading the meeting. I also paid attention to his remarks, but I got the impression that he was afraid of his opinion and was only able to follow the instructions of his superiors. There was a feeling that it was more terrible for him to contradict the bosses than to stop stupidity or to give way to a smart non-standard proposal that could anger the mighty of this world. As far as I remember, in all the other books and articles I read about Shaposhnikov, they wrote only with enthusiasm, giving praise for his intelligence and talent. Authors like Shtemenko and Vasilevsky cannot be trusted, but the article in Rodina made me think.

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

As far as I remember, in all the other books and articles I read about Shaposhnikov, they wrote only with enthusiasm, giving praise for his intelligence and talent.

No wonder - Stalin respected him like no other military leader.

Quote: gsev

I also paid attention to his remarks, but I got the impression that he was afraid of his opinion and was only able to follow the instructions of his superiors.

I think that this is not the point, but the fact that usually such events are on duty, i.e. are included in the annual plan in advance and the big bosses sometimes just treat them coolly. For example, what happened even on the eve of the war:

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: ccsr

Maybe Tukhachevsky, then it's clear ...

More likely, the Moremans were delirious

[Krasnodar]

Quote: ccsr

Quote: Civil

Doesn't bother, you still have to hit from the position of fire.

You may not be embarrassed, but the one who will command on the battlefield after the report that UAVs cannot take off due to bad weather will be very bad to reflect the enemy's offensive.
Read at your leisure an article by Lieutenant Colonel V. Rusinov from the ZVO magazine, he described in detail the prospects for 155 mm shells.
http://www.soldiering.ru/army/artillery/ammunition-155-mm.php

And if the goal is beyond the ridge? Out of the reach of artillery shells? Are the enemy's reserves, say, or a warehouse? What will you do? Substitute two Su-25 or 10 drones under the air defense system? Which is cheaper?

[ccsr]

Quote: Krasnodar

And if the goal is beyond the ridge? Out of reach of artillery shells?

If out of reach of cannon artillery, then they use rocket-propelled or tactical ballistic missiles, which can carry much more explosives.

Quote: Krasnodar

Are the enemy's reserves, say, or a warehouse?

In fact, the first thing to be destroyed is combat units on the front line, not depots deep in the rear. So connect your hypothetical situations at least with the real situation in Karabakh.

Quote: Krasnodar

Substitute two Su-25 or 10 drones under the air defense system? Which is cheaper?

Cruise or operational-tactical missiles, including SCADs, which Saddam successfully fired at Israel.

[Krasnodar]

1) If there is no angle to hit the target with a missile? Stupid ridge along the front line? for instance
2) the work of aviation is textbook, it is underway, incl. on reserves and warehouses and air defense)) Front-line aviation attacks the enemy's l / s directly on the front line, nevertheless, even in this situation, it is better to use UAVs - incl. to adjust the operation of cannon artillery
3) Because of the mountain ridge, you do not have the opportunity to use the Elbrus OTRK, without SBS, suitable only for shelling a target such as a city Your actions?

[ccsr]

Quote: Krasnodar

Because of the mountain ridge, you do not have the opportunity to use the Elbrus OTRK, without the SBS, suitable only for shelling a target such as a city What are your actions?

To choose a different position or other means of defeat - you apparently did not study this alphabet.

[Krasnodar]

Positioning will not help because we are talking about a ridge stretching along the front line - there remains another means. So - the UAV is cheaper and does not endanger the lives of the pilots

[ccsr]

Quote: Krasnodar

So - the UAV is cheaper and does not endanger the lives of the pilots

You don't seem to understand that an all-weather UAV is too expensive, and not everyone can purchase and master it. By the way, have you ever been in the mountains when solid clouds are under your feet? So leave the holy faith in UAVs for amateurs who will take your thinking seriously what is cheaper and what is more expensive in a fleeting war, especially if serious armies are at war with all types of reconnaissance, including space intelligence.

[Krasnodar]

And space exploration can see anything through the clouds I've been to the Alps, I've seen. Sho in Austrian, sho in Swiss, and if we are talking about serious armies, then:
1) they will acquire and master an all-weather UAV (the main thing is to have someone to buy from)
2) A relatively unobtrusive UAV reconnaissance will give you target designation below the level of the clouds for an aircraft that bounces from a long distance with serious ammunition where necessary))
3) How many days of bad weather for the drone in a year? 20? 40?

[ccsr]

Quote: Krasnodar

And space exploration can see anything through the clouds

She does not see everything through the clouds - for example, optoelectronic.

Quote: Krasnodar

1) they will acquire and master an all-weather UAV (the main thing is to have someone to buy from)

So maybe it is important for them to buy SCUDs or Iskanders than UAVs? The price will be one - have you ever thought about it?

Quote: Krasnodar

A relatively inconspicuous UAV reconnaissance will give you target designation below the level of the clouds for an aircraft that bangs from a long distance with serious ammunition where necessary))

Dream, especially in inclement weather and in conditions of countermeasures with electronic warfare.

Quote: Krasnodar

3) How many days of bad weather for the drone in a year? 20? 40?

It depends on the region and the time of year.

In St. Petersburg there are: clear and cloudless days a year - 31; overcast - 172; with fogs; - 57; semi-clear, with variable clouds - 105. According to the meteorological service, from April 3 to November 11, that is, for 222 days, there are 126 rainy days on average, and 158 rainfalls.

[Krasnodar]

1) Satellites are useless when cloudy
2) Scud is an old missile targeting a city. Of the 40 Scuds that Saddam fired at Israel and hit, three corpses were trained, one of them died of a heart attack
Iskander - one more time. It is not always possible to apply it absolutely from any position.
3) defensive electronic warfare means at the moment can only be used against AWACS aircraft. They are able to complicate (no more) the navigation of air transport. The rest of the electronic warfare systems used today are offensive. Used against radar. And again - during blizzards or fogs, I agree. But in St. Petersburg, for six months, they can act ideally, and only 57 days will be on the ground)).

[ccsr]

Quote: Krasnodar

1) Satellites are useless when cloudy

Not all.

Quote: Krasnodar

Scud is an old missile targeting a city.

It was about the cost of rocketry, not about the old age of the rocket.

Quote: Krasnodar

defensive electronic warfare means at the moment can only be used against AWACS aircraft.

Nonsense - electronic warfare equipment can disable the entire GPS system in a certain region, interfere with control systems using satellite communication systems, and much more can be disrupted if used wisely.

[Krasnodar]

1) They can show the working equipment by the temperature difference, but it is difficult to determine what it is - a bus with refugees or reinforcements.
2) In a war with the participation of developed countries, this does not play a big role - an iron dome rocket worth 20 thousand tanks knocks down hail at a cost of $ 400. Cheaper than compensating for the cost of a damaged Israeli apartment with an average cost of 450 thousand green. The same is true when attacking an enemy, the destruction of which must be guaranteed - this is cheaper in the end.
3) GPS - yes, satellite communication channels are protected, in case of interference they are transferred to backup.

[ccsr]

Quote: Krasnodar

GPS - yes, satellite communication channels are protected, in case of interference they are switched to backup.

Don't fool me and people - all satellite frequencies are scheduled and known, so no protection will help. The closure is necessary so as not to reveal the information that is being transmitted, and it does not protect the receiving equipment from electronic warfare systems.

Quote: Krasnodar

In a war involving developed countries, this does not play a big role

Your examples with Hamas do not matter, so do not stretch them on all wars in other regions. Or forgot how urgently they bought gas masks throughout Europe?

Quote: Krasnodar

They can show the working equipment by the temperature difference,

Do satellite radars also work on temperature differences? Oh well...

[Krasnodar]

1) What protection - satellites are useless in low clouds Control channels are protected from electronic warfare systems, in case of interference, there is a transition to a backup channel - and so on ad infinitum
2) I am showing that it is easier for a developed nation to pay for expensive missiles than for very expensive housing for its citizens. And what has the gas masks to do with it? Who is that cheto ordinary-slush?
3) Then you are talking about optical-electronic means, now about satellite radars - you really decide what is more effective - a satellite or an AWACS aircraft, which, by the way, directs both missiles and drones

[ccsr]

Quote: Krasnodar

You really decide what is more effective - a satellite or an AWACS aircraft, which, by the way, guides both missiles and drones

Combined reconnaissance is more effective - you just imagine everything too one-sided.

Quote: Krasnodar

Control channels are protected from electronic warfare systems, in case of interference, there is a transition to a backup channel - and so on ad infinitum

But figs to you - all satellites have fixed frequencies in peacetime, and even during the conduct of hostilities, they must take into account electronic compatibility with other systems of the satellite constellation and ground complexes of other countries.

[Krasnodar]

1) I agree - this is the combined thing. Not always used, really ...))
2) Heee ... welcome to 2020

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Krasnodar

an iron dome rocket costing 20 thousand tanks knocks down hail at a cost of $ 400.

Israelis lie about the price of the LCD anti-missile. A rocket with ARGSN cannot cost 40 bucks - something is superfluous here, or ARGSN or the price is different.

[Krasnodar]

Which way they lie - up or down?

[Cyril G ...]

I think the price is too low. For comparison, the Russian analogue with ARGSN - SAM 9M100 in the series will be half a million dollars. American RVV with ARGSN AiM-120 - 1 million 300 thousand dollars, Sidewinder - 492 thousand dollars.
Unpretentious (Because with RKTU) Russian missiles 9M335 (Pantsyr) and 9M331 (Tor) cost 45 thousand and 100 thousand bucks, respectively

[Krasnodar]

Yes, but in Israel they are made like pies
The higher the performance, the lower the unit price
The first LCD missiles cost 80 thousand apiece

[Cyril G ...]

I said - somewhere they lie either with the price or with the design. yes, we have 9M335 quite a gross output

[Vadim237]

Try to shoot down a kamikaze drone at a speed of 200 kilometers per hour using small arms.

[ccsr]

Quote: Vadim237

Try to shoot down a kamikaze drone at a speed of 200 kilometers per hour using small arms.

Here's a video for you, though I'm not responsible for its reliability:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws73WQDjS1E

[BAI]

Have you tried this?

[vadim dok]

By the way, the SPG is not immortal either! Counter-battery war + UAVs (reconnaissance and loitering ammunition) - will VERY shorten the life of the SPG!

[ccsr]

Quote: vadim dok

By the way, the SPG is not immortal either! Counter-battery war + UAVs (reconnaissance and loitering ammunition) - will VERY shorten the life of the SPG!

Nobody argues about this, any weapons are destroyed in a war. But can you explain how to wage war in bad weather if you don't have ALL WEATHER drones? Do you at least understand what the creation of such equipment will result in, what kind of power plant and what equipment should be installed on such a UAV? In general, as I understand it, you don't even distinguish between the classes of UAVs, as well as their combat capabilities in difficult weather conditions at different times of the year, which is why you firmly believe that Turkish drones will solve the problem in any war. But in Syria, they somehow did not show themselves against our troops - so draw a conclusion.

[Saxahorse]

Quote: ccsr

But can you explain how to wage war in bad weather if you don't have ALL WEATHER drones?

Why are you so stuck in the weather? How are you going to use your self-propelled guns in thick fog? Who will look for their goals and adjust the fire? Just by squares? But here I will disappoint, artillery radars are not afraid of fog, so the response will be very quick.

[ccsr]

Quote: Saxahorse

Why are you so stuck in the weather?

Because in the same mountains, solid clouds can be underfoot - you probably have not seen this, when it is impossible to see anything above 700 meters.

Quote: Saxahorse

How are you going to use your SPGs in thick fog?

They are all-weather, and if there are also competent spotters, then even simple howitzers will do more harm than drones.

Quote: Saxahorse

Who will look for their goals and adjust the fire?

All types of reconnaissance, including special, and those who will be in the front lane and see the enemy visually adjust the targets. By the way, our officer from the MTR died in Syria - he just gave the exact coordinates to our VKS.

Quote: Saxahorse

But here I will grieve

This is unlikely - you are too primitive from the couch talking about the capabilities of traditional types of weapons and firmly believe that drones will solve all problems, but this is not so.

[Petro_tut]

Do not bother you that "loitering ammunition" will cost much more than an unmanned reconnaissance aircraft and a modern self-propelled gun, which can accurately hit targets at distances of tens of kilometers when they start working together. All the same, sometimes you need to take a calculator and calculate what is more efficient

Armenians along the way thought the same, and where are they now?

[ccsr]

Quote: Petro_tut

Armenians along the way thought the same, and where are they now?

The Armenians were too cunning and thought that an alliance with Russia would allow them to guarantee the integrity of Karabakh, so they didn't spend much on weapons and the army. This was the reason for their losses, and not that the Azerbaijanis used drones. If you carefully study all the video materials of the Azerbaijani side, then there will not be even thirty units of armored vehicles hit by drones, i.e. about one tank battalion. And do you think that such losses can completely demoralize the commander of a tank division? Oh well...

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

... Such equipment is necessary for other states as well, since it allows to increase the combat effectiveness of the army with small forces. Accordingly, armed forces that neglect unmanned aircraft seriously limit their development.

Who can argue, but we must be aware of the specifics of the theater of operations in Karabakh!
Yes, everyone involved with the Day of the Police!

[Catfish]

Vlad, hello, congratulations on the holiday, all the best, good luck, health!

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Thank you Uncle Kostya! I need the last one more than ever !!! Sincerely yours, Vlad!

[rocket757]

The conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia has clearly demonstrated that UAVs of all main classes can now be in service with not only large, rich and industrialized countries. Such equipment is necessary for other states as well, since it allows to increase the combat effectiveness of the army with small forces. Accordingly, armed forces that neglect unmanned aircraft seriously limit their development.

Question - the answer in one bottle!
Once again, the means of attack are ahead not even in development, but in the priority of filling the troops with means of ATTACK! means of protection are also available, BUT, they remembered about them when they received them on the "horns" !!!

[Sergey_G_M]

Karabakh is a rather limited area, and it was clear to everyone that the conflict would sooner or later turn into a hot phase, as well as forces and weapons.
The Armenians could set up optical posts for monitoring the air and ground situation at all heights (autonomous optics on turntables cost a penny, it would be difficult for Azeris to find all of them), build bunkers, bunkers, better camouflage reserve and main positions. Armenians have done practically NOTHING!

[rocket757]

I do not presume to discuss, as it were, the obvious, from the outside, not knowing local realities ...
The world is like this, top politicians rule from the center ... they are, for the most part, busy with their affairs, showdowns and other things.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Sergey_G_M

Karabakh is a rather limited area, and it was clear to everyone that the conflict would sooner or later turn into a hot phase, as well as forces and weapons.
The Armenians could set up optical posts for monitoring the air and ground situation at all heights (autonomous optics on turntables cost a penny, it would be difficult for Azeris to find all of them), build bunkers, bunkers, better camouflage reserve and main positions. Armenians have done practically NOTHING!

But they rocked the fighting spirit! Hopefully the fiasco of complacency and self-praise will serve as a lesson for everyone.

[gsev]

Quote: Sergey_G_M

(autonomous optics on turntables costs a penny,

The CNC control system + mechatronics + SCADA, even for a temperature regime only above +0 degrees C, will pull a million rubles apiece. Military microcircuits are much more expensive. In addition, for her protection, a platoon of special forces-climbers will be required. Otherwise, the enemy's special forces will remove these installations or simply find a means of neutralizing them, dragging one installation to their location. A 5-30 kW generator will operate near this invisible installation for heating electrical cabinets, powering modems, radio stations and drives, an automatic fuel depot, and a computer center. It is not difficult to find such a stove with thermal imagers from a drone. A person emits about 0,5 kW and is visible with thermal imagers for several kilometers even behind light walls and obstacles.

[Cyril G ...]

Quite right! I will add - drive all the Wasps we have through the modern Tetrader, ask us for several hundred ZU-23s, supplying them with a new SUAZO, and of course have our own small UAVs for reconnaissance and control units in the amount of at least several hundred.

[OgnennyiKotik]

The military air defense is in a serious crisis. A serious modernization of current funds and the creation of new ones is required. All our military air defense is actually outdated.

[Vadim237]

This is not a problem of military air defense - but the operators that control them, plus the absence of an integrated and unified air defense system.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Vadim237

operators that control them plus the lack of an integrated and unified air defense system.

This mantra no longer works, there are too many examples of the opposite. Israel has not solved this problem and openly speaks about it. Everything is fine with their skills and technique. New types of UAVs are a threat to everyone and no one has a solution. So far, only the destruction of command posts, but this has nothing to do with air defense.

[Vadim237]

This mantra no longer works, In relation to the Armenians and everyone else who does not have a single air defense system, it works.

[Krasnodar]

Any modern multilayer air defense system can easily be overloaded with 100 thousand tanks each. And complement the Iskander / Laura OTRK. To finish off the Air Force - all sorts of GBU and Delilah.
The problem can be solved with interceptor drones, which have yet to be developed.

[Mimoprohodil]

Quote: Krasnodar

Any modern multilayer air defense can be easily overloaded with 100 thousand tank kharops

Something Hindus got 100 times more expensive

[Krasnodar]

10 million tanks one Harop?

[Mimoprohodil]

Developed by Malat, the UAV division of the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), the Harop UCAVs were bought by India recently through a reported USD 100 million deal for up to 10 drones.

[Krasnodar]

More than 10 is how much?
India already has a number of the Harop drones developed by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), having purchased 10 of them in September 2009 in a deal worth some $ 100 million.
Betted 10 on the 100 million deal

[Cyril G ...]

A little bit cheaper. From 1 million to 600 thousand dollars. This is what I found

[Krasnodar]

Cheto is expensive

[Cyril G ...]

This is still reality

[Krasnodar]

There is nothing special on Harop itself - control, optics, b / h.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

This mantra no longer works, there are too many examples of the opposite.

This is not a mantra. In the presence of systems Air defense, the same reconnaissance UAV will not calmly hang out in the air, "shining" the position of the air defense missile system, tracking its movements and waiting for it to go into cover and turn off. And the shelter itself will be covered by neighboring air defense systems / air defense systems.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Such an air defense system, which you mean, may be in 3-5 countries. A couple of dozen have something more or less called air defense. The rest of the 160-180 countries in the world are completely dumb.
What you describe is an extreme rarity and, in the event of war, it will be hacked by a different outfit of forces using different tactics. And this, I hope, will remain a theory, in practice we have regional wars and they will continue.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

Such an air defense system, which you mean, may be in 3-5 countries. A couple of dozen have something more or less called air defense.

It is only with us and perhaps the Jews, due to the density of the AIE and effective air force.

[Imobile]

If we put on air defense against drones, then there will not be enough money for defense from Ukraine

[ccsr]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

Military air defense is in serious crisis

This is the reason for the successful actions of the Azerbaijani UAVs, and not that they can decide the outcome of the war. But this is understood by specialists, not couch analysts, who decided that drones can defeat a serious enemy. In Yugoslavia, even the old Soviet air defense systems shot down the latest American aircraft - that was twenty years ago, just not everyone remembers about it.

[Imobile]

After turning on the radar, a rocket arrives in a few minutes, aiming at the signal of this radar. How to answer?

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

In Yugoslavia, even the old Soviet air defense systems shot down the latest American planes - that was twenty years ago, just not everyone remembers about it.

In principle, an air defense missile is a kamikaze drone against aircraft. In Vietnam, in Ukraine, this technique was able to neutralize aviation. Turkish drones are a versatile tool capable of neutralizing air defense, armored vehicles, and special forces with the proper number. It seems that it was the reconnaissance drones that allowed the Azerbaijani special forces to choose a place for the rapprochement and attack of Shushi and warned about the location of the concentration of the counter-attacking Armenian forces and the strength of their possible attack. It seems that the massive use of drones was a surprise for the Armenians.

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

Turkish drones are a versatile tool capable of neutralizing air defense, armored vehicles, and special forces with the proper number.

I think this is a delusion, otherwise our bases in Syria would have been destroyed long ago.

Quote: gsev

It seems that it was the reconnaissance drones that allowed the Azerbaijani special forces to choose a place for the rapprochement and attack of Shushi and warned about the location of the concentration of the counter-attacking Armenian forces and the strength of their possible attack.

No one denies their usefulness in any military conflict, but in this case there is the usual carelessness of the Armenian authorities and the military, who, instead of seriously preparing for war, hoped that Russia, as always, would drag chestnuts out of the fire for them. But it was a bummer, and the Azerbaijanis defeated the Armenians, and this regional conflict is generally of little interest from a military point of view for the major armies of the world.

Quote: gsev

It seems that the massive use of drones was a surprise for the Armenians.

How could this be a surprise for the Armenians, if Aliyev had been preparing for war for more than ten years and bought a huge amount of various equipment and weapons.
Who turned down Russia's proposals in the first place?

The Kazan Formula for resolving the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict was developed for more than 10 years at the initiative of Russia, with the active participation of President Medvedev. Russia has been offering this formula to Armenia and Azerbaijan for 10 years already.

https://echo.msk.ru/blog/sergei_markov/2716201-echo/

[Cyril G ...]

Lord, where are you here! obsolescence of our military air defense saw ah?

[sevtrash]

It is necessary to draw certain conclusions regarding other existing hotbeds of hostilities. With Karabakh it is clear that Azerbaijan, under the leadership of Turkey and with the help of Israel, crushed Armenia. With the help of drones, better organization, interaction, including between the Azerbaijani-Turkish military personnel. Drones are the gods of war for now.
And then what? There are similar conflicts on the borders of Russia. The experience of Azerbaijan can be applied in Donbass and Transnistria. Ukraine can create a similar military group, with the widespread use of drones and loitering ammunition, maybe not in the near future, but in a relatively short time. There are connections with Turkey and Israel, the level of personnel is in no way worse than the Azerbaijani. They will be able to take Donbass very quickly, judging by the way it was with Armenia. Russia has nothing to help in countering UAVs to Donbass. Saturate Donbass with Thors and Shells? How many of them will need to be introduced and their effectiveness against such a grouping as Azerbaijan had is in question. The results at Khmeimim do not count, there was no similar UAV grouping there either.
Romania can help Moldova, of course Romania is not Turkey, but Transnistria is not Donbass.
The example of Armenia's defeat opens up the possibility of resolving frozen conflicts.

[gsev]

Quote: sevtrash

An example of Armenia's defeat opens up the possibility of resolving frozen conflicts

It looks like the war in Transnistria and the Donbass can only be stopped by ground nuclear strikes on the cities of these countries or some kind of biological infection. The United States demonstrated the helplessness of its medicine and sanitation in the face of new viruses against the background of China, Vietnam and even Russia and Ukraine. Apparently the scientists of the USSR not in vain suggested that Khrushchev pay attention to biological weapons. And it also makes sense for Russia to withdraw from the treaty banning the supply of nuclear munitions with a cobalt shell ..

[Nikolaevich I]

And what are the Armenians? And others, there are enough of the same! If I'm not mistaken, then for the first time massively and effectively UAVs as a combat means were used by the Israelis in 1982, with their help they knocked out the air defense of the Arabs. ! About 40 years have passed since then ... And what is the state of unmanned aircraft in Russia at the present time? Yes, "something" has been done ... but, for the most part, "experimental and experimental ..." Maybe for such countries as Armenia, Moldova, it’s even enough ("Eagles", for example ...), but will not be enough for Russia!

[gsev]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

And what is the state of unmanned aviation in Russia at the present time

So already in 1980 the competition for the Plekhanov Institute of Economics was three times higher than in the MAI. Since then, there has been only an aggravation. In addition, unmanned toys are now banned, so young people cannot develop an interest in this technology. In the thirties, glider competitions were held, in which hundreds of teams took part. As you understand, the Soviet collective farmer and worker did not have the means to buy the necessary materials under Stalin. But the state condoned the assembly of these gliders at the expense of enterprises. In the late 1980s, there was a surge of interest in small aircraft. But soon home-made motor aviation was banned, leaving only hang-gliding, and then it became problematic to steal D16T profiles on the basis of an aviation secondary metal near Botkin hospital. It was then that the USSR and Russia missed the chance to acquire drones.

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

But the state condoned the assembly of these gliders at the expense of enterprises. In the late 1980s, there was a surge in interest in small aircraft. But soon homemade motor aviation was banned,

What are you talking about if in the seventies serial Tu-143 UAVs were put into service with the Soviet Army, and squadrons of them were created as part of the air armies. What other home-builders do you need if full-scale R&D was carried out where the best specialists in the aviation industry created serious equipment. It's just that the collapse of the country put an end to promising developments, but this does not mean that now we need to rush to the other extreme and rely on the Horns and Hooves offices, which have learned to rivet cheap drones from foreign components. First, we need to decide how much we will need it in a serious war, and only then decide which way we will go. Our budget is not bottomless ...

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

What other home-builders do you need if full-scale R&D was carried out where the best specialists in the aviation industry created serious equipment.

As far as I understand, if a young man did not play with complex equipment in childhood and early adolescence, he will not become a high-level specialist. The Lyapunov sisters in their school and student years created a scientific society and the scale of their activities frightened both Lysenko's professors and the KGB. The current premier, in his first year at Stankin, practically outstripped the technical policy or the work of the Computing Center of this institute. At least then he had the opportunity to provide computer time to people he liked. Please note that the Borodino machine-building division with factories even in Western Europe has practically lost the competition between Teblok and its staff of 10 people for the market for the supply of equipment for bottling water. Teblok lost to a Ukrainian company with a staff of 3-5 people, occupying an area of ​​3 garages.

[ccsr]

Quote: gsev

Teblok lost to a Ukrainian company with a staff of 3-5 people, occupying an area of ​​3 garages.

And what does this have to do with the design of complex military equipment, where you need to have the best specialists not in water spills, but in several critical fields, such as chemical production, metallurgy, computer technology, radio engineering, mechanical engineering, etc. Well, where in three garages can you organize work for them, even if these 3-5 people you refer to are geniuses?

[gsev]

Quote: ccsr

And what does this have to do with the design of complex military equipment,

For the manufacture of bottles, the use of laser heating of blanks when blowing bottles from them is considered. In principle, the task is commensurate with aiming a laser beam at flying vehicles. Perhaps without such a system, in 30 years, no one will need machines for blowing bottles. Now, for example, it makes no sense to try to enter the market with a labeller or packer of less than 6000 bottles per hour.

[Gavrohs]

Due to limited capabilities, the Armenian armed forces have not yet been able to build a large and developed unmanned air fleet.

, But this comrade refutes your article Kirill, he claims that everything turns out to be simply not purchased! It turned out that this also happens

[Protos]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

Yes right now they will come to explain that the whole problem is in the belligerents. They do not know how to disguise and control air defense assets. A classic excuse this year.

So really, a company commander would have killed me for such a disguise and equipment of a platoon stronghold, as everywhere in Artsakh!